Subject: WWII-L Digest - 28 Nov 1994 to 29 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 00:00:17 -0500

There are 38 messages totalling 2047 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Waffen-SS
  2. HIST: Hair from KZ inmates
  3. INF: USN Chronology 11-29-94
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 30-NOV-1944
  5. "Fatherland" (5)
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago Archives
  7. Hollywood in World War II (2)
  8. <No subject given>
  9. SS,German Resistance and ...
 10. Julia Child in the OSS (2)
 11. Close support planes vs. tank
 12. Julia Child: well, maybe not...! (3)
 13. USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION
 14. Weaps: Battleships (3)
 15. query:how to define WWII (2)
 16. "Not a single...."
 17. Waffen SS
 18. Re[2]: Uniforms: Pinks & Greens
 19. Close Air Support in Normandy
 20. Scorched Earth Policy
 21. Ukraine and the Third Reich
 22. German OB Hurtgen
 23. Close Air Support planes vs. tanks
 24. Der Vichy Government
 25. [INF] USAAF 30 NOV 44
 26. 22d Inf in the Hurtgen 30 Nov 44
 27. Navy Citations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 00:01:27 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Dear Eric,

Burkhart Mueller-Hillerbrand's DAS HEER, 3 vols, 1951?-1969, is one of
the two seminal works on Wehrmacht organization, along with Georg
Tessin's massive history of the units of the force, VERBANDE UND TRUPPEN
DER DEUTSCHE WEHRMACHT UND WAFFEN-SS, which runs to 15 volumes in the
New York Public Library's rebound set. Mueller-Hillerbrand emphasizes
statistics and organizational history rather than unit detail, although
he gives some OBs down to division level. There is another set called
DAS HEER, which Wolf Keilig edited in looseleaf volumes in the 1950's
and 1960's that combines elements of both M-H and Tessin, but I'm not
sure it was ever completed.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:10:56 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Hair from KZ inmates

It is certain that the best wrist-watches confiscated from Jews and other
prisoners were specially reserved for distribution to U-Boat crews.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 04:00:13 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-29-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/29 Wed.  United States naval vessels damaged by suicide
             planes, Leyte Gulf, P. I.
             Battleship MARYLAND (BB-46),
              10 d. 41'N., 125 d. 23'E.
             Destroyer SAUFLEY (DD-465),
              10 d. 50'N., 125 d. 25'E.
             Destroyer AULICK (DD-569),
              10 d. 35'N., 125 d. 40'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Carrier SHINANO, by submarine ARCHERFISH (SS-311),
              south of Honshu, Japan,
              32 d. 00'N., 137 d. 00'E.,
             Submarine chaser NO. 45, by Army aircraft, Leyte
              Gulf area, P. I.,
              10 d. 25'N., 124 00'E.
             Patrol boat NO. 105, by surface craft, Ormoc Bay,
              P. I.,
              10 d. 59'N., 124 d. 33'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 04:26:06 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 30-NOV-1944

On 30-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the US 9th Army sector, the XIII Corps continues to
advance in the Linnich area. In the US 1st Army sector, the VII Corps
advances in the area of Lammersdorf and Inden. In the US 3rd Army sector,
the 10th Armoured Division is attacking towards the Saar. The 90th and 95th
Divisions continue the battle for the Saar. The 4th Armoured Division
captures the hills around Mackwiller in the Saar-Union sector.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front, with assistance from the Rumanian
4th Army, captures Eger and then pushes on towards Miskolc.

Philippines (Leyte) - The Americans are now on the defensive facing
continual Japanese counter-attacks.

Burma - The British 36th Division occupies Pinwe.

China - The Chinese 22nd Division is withdrawn from Burma to help
strengthen the defences of Kunming.

The Homefront
-------------
Stettinius Approved - The Senate has approved the appointment of Edward R.
Stettinius as Secretary of State by a vote of 67 to 1. The loan dissenter
is Sen. William Langer, R., N.C. who talks for two and a half hours about
the qualifications of Stettinius.

War Prisoner Report - The House Military Affairs Committee has issued a
report saying that "in general" Germany has tried to give American
prisoners of war the standards of treatment provided by the 1929 Geneva
Convention while Japan has not observed these terms.

New Lend-Lease Agreement - Washington has announced that a new Lend-Lease
agreement with Britain provides for a 43% reduction in the assistance to
be given by the United States to Britain.

Outstanding November Films - "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" starring Spencer
Tracy and Van Johnson, a picture about the 1942 raid on Tokyo. "None But
The Lonely Heart" starring Cary Grant, based on the Richard Llewellyn
novel. "Something For The Boys" starring Carmen Miranda, music and lyrics
by Cole Porter. "Meet Me In St. Louis" starring Judy Garland, nostalgic
family doings in the St. Louis of 1903-04.

Bucknell Head Quits - Dr. Arnaud C. Marts has resigned as president of
Bucknell University, Lewisburg, Pa.

Army & Navy
-----------
Ace Race - Navy Commander David McCampbell has downed two more Japanese
planes, bringing his total to 34. He is still two shy of Major Richard
Bong's top score.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica and "Time" magazine.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 06:36:39 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, David Rising wrote:

> Don't worry guys, it's HBO. IOW, it will be played at least one million
> times before they let it die a decent death, _and_ it will probably be
> out on video soon. Cheers,
> David Rising

Well, if it will be coming out on video, I guess I can wait.

Thanks David,

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 04:43:06 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Archives

The November 1944 "50 Years Ago" articles are now available for downloading
from my "50 Years Ago" archives. In addition to past "50 Years Ago" articles,
these archives also include a number of additional WW II related articles and
files that I've found to be especially interesting. I am constantly adding
new files to my archives so you may want to check back on a regular basis.

The best way to access the "50 Years Ago" archives is through the World Wide
Web. The WWW URL is "http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html".  You may also
download the files by anonymous FTP. I have included instructions for doing
this below.

Instructions for downloading files by FTP -

The 50 YA articles are stored by month. To retrieve the articles by FTP, open
host "ftp.webcom.com", enter "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, enter
your Internet mail address when prompted for password. To change to the
directory where the articles are stored enter "cd /pub/jbd/www". Enter
command "ls" to get a listing of all the files available. The file name
identifies the month for 50 YA articles (example - sep1944.txt, contains the
September 1944 articles).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 06:48:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

Hello, Alexander!

> I understand Julia Childs (the culinary artist) volunteered to serve in
> the O.S.S. and parachuted into occupied Europe, where she very successfully
> employed her espionage skills in obtaining secret information from the Nazis.
> She was one of the first agents ever recruited by the O.S.S.
>         I saw this on the Arts and Entertainment Network -- some special
> on the O.S.S. and the C.I.A.   No kidding!  She's quite an amazing lady.

    This is accurate. I have also seen this in print.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 06:50:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Anwar!

> "Comrades, the enemy must not be left a single engine, a single railway-car, a s
> ingle pound of grain or gallon of fuel... In areas occupied by the enemy
> guerrillas must be formed; sabotage groups must be orgamized to combat the
> enemy, to fomen guerrilla warefare everywhere, to blow up bridges and roads..."

    Sounds like Josef Stalin after the beginning of "Barbarossa" in
which he advocates a scorched earth policy. More than likely this was
an address to the officers of Stavka, the Soviet General Staff.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 07:47:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS,German Resistance and ...

Hello, Ellen!

> I am interested in the German Resistance, especially regarding any women's
> involvement.  I am looking for any information on this.  I am also looking
> for any surviving women who were involved in the resistance and the Holocast.
>  Thank you.

    The one book I can recommend on this topic is "The History of the
German Resistance, 1933-1945 by Peter Hoffmann. Well researched and
comprehensive, this might be of assistance in helping you to find out
info on women who served in the Resistance in Germany during WWII.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 07:55:33 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Julia Child in the OSS

>Julia Child, so far as I know, served as an OSS clerk in China,
>where she met her husband, a gifted amateur chef who got her
>interested in cooking. This is the first I've heard of her being
>in Europe or working behind enemy lines. Does anyone have more
>details?
>
Oh--I can see this one now--"And then you take the C-4, and stir it gent
ly with the detonators--add to railroad tracks and set the timer for 20
to 30 minutes on simmer.  I had to laugh at this one guys and gals.

Sorry I've been lurking lately--I'm pretty much back into this conferenc
again like before.  I know I owe people mail--I'll be answering it soon.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:51:20 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:21:02 -0500 David Rising said:
>On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:
>
>> The German policy of exterminating Jews (and Poles, Gypsies, etc) was widely
>> known as early as 1941, through newspaper reports in Bitish and American
>newspapers.
>
>Widely known, yes, but not really believed. I think it's plausible that
>if the Germans had won they could have kept a lid on it. As Hitler said,
>"it's the victor who writes history." (or something like that) On the
>other hand, if the German's had won it's also plausible that they
>wouldn't have cared if anyone had known about the final solution. Given
>the German people's reaction to the euthanasia program, they probably
>would have wanted to keep it quiet, but you never know...
>David Rising

   First, the Germans would have gone to great measures to hide the Holocaust.
There is plenty of evidence in this in various documents and speeches by
Himmler and Hitler.  Many historians have written how the Germans knew that
what they were doing were wrong by most moral standards and so sought to
veil their actions in secrecy and euphamisms such as "special treatment".
   The Allies were more or less aware of the Final Solution.  The deporation
and relocation programs were public knowledge and can be read about in
LIFE magazines from 1939 onward.  However, the details and the extent of
the Nazi actions may have been more or less open to doubt.  The concentration
camps were fairly secret, and the only proof anyone really had in the UK
or the US of what was going on were second or third-hand eyewitness accounts.
Nothing too tangible like photographs.
   However, some have theorized that the assination of Reinhard Heydrich was
not only because of his position as Czech Protector but also because of his
position as director of the Reich Cental Security Office - RSHA - in which
he was the master of the Final Solution (worked out in detail during the
Wansee Conference which he chaired).  One author even said that the Czech
government in exile didn't want to have him killed because of the retributions
that would inevitably be exacted on the Czechs, but that the British insisted
because of the Final Solution.
   My only doubt about the movie is that Joseph Kennedy would have become
President.  Roosevelt yanked him from the embassy in Britain because he
was getting too obnoxious or something.  I'll have to check on that.  The
movie is on tonight, HBO, at 2000 EST.  I hope to watch it or tape it.
Is there a dedicated Listserv to Nazi Germany related topics?

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:15:11 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

> I understand Julia Childs (the culinary artist) volunteered to serve in
> the O.S.S. and parachuted into occupied Europe, where she very successfully
> employed her espionage skills in obtaining secret information from the Nazis.
> She was one of the first agents ever recruited by the O.S.S.
>         I saw this on the Arts and Entertainment Network -- some special
> on the O.S.S. and the C.I.A.   No kidding!  She's quite an amazing lady.

And to think, I named my Child, Julia...;-)

OK, so it's a bad pun,                                          Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 07:52:59 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: Close support planes vs. tank

Sorry - - it is depleted uranium, not spent plutonium. Interesting
concept however. :.)

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge, QASAS                                                        *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosive Safety (USATCES)                  *
* Explosive Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                  *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-8769  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:16:59 PST
From:    Henry Herz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Julia Child in the OSS

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> Julia Child, so far as I know, served as an OSS clerk in China,
> where she met her husband, a gifted amateur chef who got her
> interested in cooking. This is the first I've heard of her being
> in Europe or working behind enemy lines. Does anyone have more
> details?
>
> Henry Sirotin
>
She was apparently a master of disguise, impersonating on various occassions
such Axis notables as Himmler, von Manstein, Borghese, and Yamamoto.  The Soviet
success at Stalingrad was due, in no small part, to her impersonation of Paulus.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 08:21:58 -0800
From:    anthony anderson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Julia Child: well, maybe not...!

>From  Current Biography 1967 [page page 67]:

    "When World War II broke out, Julia McWilliams joined the
OSS,  hoping to become a spy. But during the war years she was,
instead, a file clerk in Washington, D.C., Ceylon, and China. It
was in Ceylon in 1943, on the porch of a tea planter's bungalow,
that she met Paul Cushing Child, a painter-turned-map maker for
the OSS. From Ceylon they were both assigned to China were
they spent their free time succumbing to the lure of Chinese
cusine......"

Okay, I can't claim that Current Biography is the definitive
account of Ms. Child, but I would sure like to know the source
in print where one can find out about her alleged exploits
outside of the kitchen.
*******************************************
Anthony E. Anderson
Government Documents Department
Doheny Memorial Library
University of  Southern California
 Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182
(213) 740-5192   [email-masked]
"Wie niet sterk is,  moet slim zijn."
***************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 12:03:12 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

40mm was used over the other guns because of it's greater stopping
power and range, and also the shells were explosive, although not
VT(prox) fuses.

Constitution is classed as a frigate becuase of the gun-deck setup,
the British classed her as a large frigate, and had standing orders
for none of her frigates (except for 2 large ones) to fight an
American frigate because the US version was to big.  Just think
of the Ironsides as a frigate on Steroids.  :-)

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 12:06:37 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Weaps: Battleships

Reason for all guns forward: weight saving, notice for the
KGV and Vanguard guns returned to standard forward-aft form.
Third turret on Rodney had limited arcs, a rear turret would
have been better, and have larger arcs.  French battleships
had good arcs for both turrets, but again there is a 45 to 90
degree blindspot on the ship, if you run from someone who
is the same speed, you will be sunk, because he can just shoot at
you and all you can do is watch.

John E. Kolalr
(Kollar)

admittedly battleships don't run from much, but blindspots are bad.
the enemy always seems to find his/her way into them.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 12:14:44 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: query:how to define WWII

On Tue, 22 Nov 1994 18:21:37 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>If you consider WWII to be an extension of WWI, the you should probably
>see WWI as an extension of the Franco-Prussian war of 1870: The gap is
>slightly larger, but WWI was felt by many to be the consequence of the
>1870 war --- especially the French, who wanted to take the Elzas/Alsace
>region back that they had lost in 1870. The theme of the three wars is
>the same, i.e. the rise of Germany to become a world power.

I would disagree with this.  The theme of 1870 seems to me to be the
unification of Germany, with world power status left to the generation
that followed.  Bismarck himself didn't want Alsace-Lorrain, but allowed
himself to be overruled by the generals.  But granting the continuity
for the moment, why not see 1870 as a continuation of 1813?  And 1813
as a continuation of 1756?  Etc.  Merely posing such questions also
questions the utility of the linkage, it seems to me.

With WWI/II, however, the linkage is considerably tighter, and involves
more than just Germany.  The effective peace after WWI does not begin
until 1925; after 1931, at least 2 of the WWII belligerents are continuously
at war until 1945.  The 6-year interlude here is much less a hiatus than
the 43 years between the Franco-Prussian/WWI wars.

Of course, in the modern sense, these are all episodes in the continuous
history of the advent of modern Europe (with appropriate extensions to
the rest of the world dragged into its quarrels!).

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 12:47:54 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: query:how to define WWII

On Tue, 22 Nov 1994 13:38:57 -0500 Michael Andrew Turton said:
>        Isn't the idea that WWII is an extension of WWI and the Franco-
>Prussian War an outgrowth of H. Mackinder's ideas on the way geography
>has influenced European politics?

Well, it's been a while, but I seem to remember Keynes' =The Economic
Consequences of the Peace= at least implying another war around the corner
. . . and it came out in what, 1919?  1920?  Geography, BTW, doesn't
play a major role in Keynes' work.

> Seems to me that all three wars, as well
>as others, are related to the simple fact that Europe is filled with
>expansionist states without "natural" borders.  From the Pyranees to the
>Urals only rivers provide some semblance of "natural" borders.  The
>key for expansionist states is to get hold of the productive and strategic
>area in the center (German states).  Once that area is unified, IMHO,
>Europe was doomed to a endless series of wars over who held control of
>it and what its boundaries were

I am not persuaded, I fear.  The "productive" areas in Europe are scattered
all over the place, not just in the North European Plain.  And Charlemagne's
division of the realm provides just as much historical justification for
the wars over the middle march (no pun intended, you Victorian readers!)
as any economic analysis.  When you've had a few dozen wars, or a few
hundred, stringing together another one or two is incredibly easy.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 16:52:38 +3
From:    Dom!cio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Weaps: Battleships

Curious. In my naval wargaming days I always thought (and game-
mastered) that these all-guns forward battlewagons were intended as
"point" vessels of their squadrons, bringing (in case of Rodney, eg)
all guns to bear on the forward arc so as to disencourage/harass a
sucessful capping (would that be crossing, in English ?) the T.

Domicio Proenca Jr.

"The only thing more cruel than injustice
is justice without a sword" (Oscar Wilde)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:37:49 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Not a single...."

That speech sounds very much like the one made by Joseph Stalin, urging
all Soviet citizens to destroy everything in the face of the German
invasion in 1941.
Since referred to as the "Scorched Earth Policy".

Regards -- Sidney Allinson, Victoria, BC, Canada.

##

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 14:32:05 -0500
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Weaps: Battleships

On Tue 29 Nov 1994 16:52:38 Domicio Proenca <[email-masked]> said:
> Curious. In my naval wargaming days I always thought (and game-
> mastered) that these all-guns forward battlewagons were intended as
> "point" vessels of their squadrons, bringing (in case of Rodney, eg)
> all guns to bear on the forward arc so as to disencourage/harass a
> sucessful capping (would that be crossing, in English ?) the T.

No, and in fact for the RODNEY and NELSON, the aftmost of the three turrets
was at deck level and couldn't fire forward.  The middle turret was on a
raised barbette ("superfiring", in RN nomenclature) giving it about the
same arc as the forwardmost.

The French arrangement of two four-gun turrets forward did allow for all
guns to train ahead.

In both cases, however, the designs were chosen to group all the magazine,
barbette, and turret armour in one solid block, so as to get under the
Washington Treaty displatement limit.  As soon as the various countries
abandoned the treaty, they chose designs with more balanced lay-outs.
The British KGV class had two turrets forward (a deck-level quad and a
double superfiring) and a quad aft.  The French GASCOGNE would have been
similar to the RICHELIEU and JEAN BART, but with one quad turret forward
and one aft.
--
Peter Smith -- [email-masked]
Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:49:54 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

Peculiar, this latter-day theory that the German extermination of millions
of Jews and other races was some sort of "secret". As I mentioned, it
was repeatedly mentioned in leading newspapers in Britain and the USA from
quite early in the war. A War Crimes Commission had been set up in London
in 1943 to co-rodinate evidence of mass atrocities, which was copiously
collected by the various governments-in-exile.
The "Final Solution"was not even a secret in Germany, either. Goebbels
made several speeches about the Nazi extermination program to large
audiences of German military and political leaders, in 1944. His idea
was possibly to warn the hierarchy that "we're all in this together,
guys, so you better pull your weight..." Whatever his reason, the fact
remains the story was out officially in Germany.
And not only officially.  I remember asking a German friend, a veteran of
the Wehrmacht.  ""Did ordinary folk in German know about the death-camps?"
he asked. "Do you think we are a stupid people?  All we could think about
was how to stay out of them ourselves."

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 14:59:42 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Ellen Shepard wrote:

> No, this was not about "it could happen."  It was to let you know that the
> Holocaust did take place.  In case, anyone thought otherwise.  It is an
> important film.

I'm sorry Ellen, but I don't see your point. I may just be nit-picking,
but I don't think that there's anything to indicate that this was an
"important" film or book. Again, enjoyable perhaps, but not "important."
Just because a book makes mention of the word "holocaust" does not make
it important. It's not like there are not other important holocaust films
out there: Night in Fog, Ghetto of Lodz, Holocaust, Shoah, even
Schindler's List, etc. Fatherland is nothing more than a made-for-tv
movie of a reasonable sci/fi-murder/mystery novel.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 13:39:00 PST
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Waffen SS

On Thurs. Nov. 24, 1994, Ira Krakow wrote:

"...The Nazis recruited non-Germans into the SS because they wanted to
establish a New Order in Europe.  The New Order would include not only
Germans, but other Europeans who were sympathetic to the cause and passed the
proper racial tests.  In certain areas (the Ukraine and Latvia, for example)
they were very successful ..."

     Where Ukrainians Nazi sympathizers?  Ukraine was caught between a rock
and a hard place.  We know full well today that Stalin had long persecuted
the Ukrainians.  The politically imposed famine of 1932-33 claimed an
estimated 6 million lives.  The brutal purges by the NKVD just prior to
German occupation in Ukraine further outraged the Ukrainian population to the
point that they were willing to fight against Russia by siding with the
Germans.  The incoming Germans discovered mass graves and prisons full
of corpses and delighted in inciting the local populations against Jews
and Russians alike.  Apparently Goebbels made some newsreel propaganda films
on this. (Anyone know how I could find a copy?)
     In the formation of the Galician (Ukrainian) Division of the Waffen SS,
a contract was drawn up stating to the Nazis clearly that the Division was to
remain a unit and not be dispersed amongst German soldiers.  Secondly, the
Division would fight only against the Red Army but not any Soviet allies.  I
have interviewed a few former Galician Division members and these two points
seem to be a concensus.
     Nazi ideology was not on the agenda of Ukraine.  Ukrainian nationalism
was strong as it is today.  They chose what they thought to be the lesser of
two evils with the hopes of gaining independence.  To the Germans, Ukrainians
were untermenschen or subhumans, perhaps not even equal to a dog.  This
sentiment coupled with the brutality of the SS towards much of the local
Ukrainian population eventually severed any allegiance.
     Understandably, it is difficult for many in the West to comprehend the
unique but certainly not enviable position that Ukraine was in during this
period in history.  There have been a small number of books published on
this topic, one by a former German soldier.  Any comments or additional info?

Bill Wsiaki
St. Paul's College Library
University of Manitoba

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 15:50:27 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Tue, 29 Nov 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Peculiar, this latter-day theory that the German extermination of millions
> of Jews and other races was some sort of "secret". As I mentioned, it
> was repeatedly mentioned in leading newspapers in Britain and the USA from
> quite early in the war. A War Crimes Commission had been set up in London
> in 1943 to co-rodinate evidence of mass atrocities, which was copiously
> collected by the various governments-in-exile.

I still contend that there is a big difference between having the
information and _believing_ the information. Everything that I have read
points to the fact that people did not believe these reports ot be true.
I will wait until I'm repatriated with my sources (somewhere up north) in
about 6mths to bring this up again when I can actually cite some of them.
Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 15:59:20 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Uniforms: Pinks & Greens

Terry--I gotta disagree with you a bit about pinks and greens--they are
worn together.

Pink refers to the tan color of the US Army officers uniforms--it is a
pink/khaki color.  The Class "A" pants were a pink material, as well as
skirts for the female uniforms.

Greens refers to the jacket color--it is a brown green color--it looks
green when put against the pink pants.  The material on the cap matches
the green jacket--whether a side cap or a saucer cap.

The shirt and tie are khaki (not pink), as well as the socks and belt
with a flat face roller buckle.  The shoes are brown.

There are two styles of jackets--the traditional Class "A" style four
pocket as well as the officer's Ike jacket--which is a waist coat.

There are variations on the uniform--it can be worn with a green shirt
and green pants--I assume this is a dressed down version of the Class
"A"--what we would call a Class "B" today.

As to where to get the stuff--National Capital Historical Sales has
repro four pocket blouses, but they sell for $225 or $250, as well as
the rest of the gear.  Original items are readily available--mine are
all original--although you have to scrounge--especially if you have ape
arms like me.  The hardest part are the shoes--current U.S. Naval
aviator brown shoes are perfect if you know anyone in the Navy.  They
can be mail ordered by active navy and reserve members through a
catalouge--make sure you get the leather soles.  Also--be wary of
current US Army insignia--the wings are wrong on aviation branch--but
can be dremeled down to be correct--repro insignia are out there
correctly made as well.

That is the short verison--I'd be glad to answer any additional
questions about it.  There is a terriffic book out there called "Silver
Wings, Pinks and Greens" that I saw that should be checked out.  I do
not know thwe author but I have seen it in several catalogues--it is
worth getting.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 16:11:39 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support in Normandy

>
> Mike, is their research as to the effectiveness of these aircraft against
> destroying tanks when they would use their guns in straffing runs.  I would
> think that the Typhoon might be successful if it could bring its 20mm guns
> to bear on the top, side, or rear armor of German tanks.
> Ron Babuka

It sure worked for Rudel in his JU-87G(?) with the twin 37mm cannons.
He popped 500+ armored vehicles mostly using these cannon.  He also is
credited with 187 aircraft (downed with a Stuka!!!!) not to mention
the odd battleship, light cruiser etc. etc. etc.   I guess that's why
he was Germany's highest decorated soldier....  His biography _Stuka
Pilot_ is stunning in its revelations of Rudel's challenges and how he
overcame those challenges.  For me the book is truly inspirational.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 15:18:41 MST
From:    Eric Pass <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Scorched Earth Policy

As I've mentioned in a previous post, I'm currently reading Barry
Leach's "German Strategy Against Russia 1939-1941"  One of his main
points is that the logistics aspect of Operation Barbarossa was
not thoroughly examined.  Thus, the German invasion was doomed
to almost certain failure because the necessary supplies to complete
the task they had assigned for themselves were not available.

Terry's point that Stalin's speech may have advocated a scorched earth
policy:

>> "Comrades, the enemy must not be left a single engine, a single railway
>> car, a single pound of grain or gallon of fuel... In areas occupied
>> by the enemy, guerrillas must be formed; sabotage groups must be
>> organized to combat the enemy, to fomen guerrilla warefare everywhere, to blow
>> up bridges and roads...

TM> Sounds like Josef Stalin after the beginning of "Barbarossa" in
TM> which he advocates a scorched earth policy.

In view of Leach's arguments, this would seem like a very viable
strategy as the Germans counted on drawing from local supplies
to meet their logistical requirements.

Eric ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:36:49 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ukraine and the Third Reich

On Tue, 29 Nov 94, Bill Wsiaki wrote:

>Nazi ideology was not on the agenda of Ukraine.  Ukrainian nationalism
>was strong as it is today.  They chose what they thought to be the lesser of
>two evils with the hopes of gaining independence.  To the Germans, Ukrainians
>were untermenschen or subhumans, perhaps not even equal to a dog.  This
>sentiment coupled with the brutality of the SS towards much of the local
>Ukrainian population eventually severed any allegiance.
>Understandably, it is difficult for many in the West to comprehend the
>unique but certainly not enviable position that Ukraine was in during this
>period in history.  There have been a small number of books published on
>this topic, one by a former German soldier.  Any comments or additional info?

I read in An Economic History of the USSR, by Alec Nove, that the
Ukrainians hoped that the Germans would free them from the forced
collectivization they had been subjected to by Stalin.  Instead,
the Germans used these collective farms in the same manner as Stalin,
recognizing that the collective farm system was an efficient way of
controlling the population and procuring their grain.

If anyone knows more about this situation, I'd love to hear it.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 15:43:27 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: German OB Hurtgen

Sorry this has taken so long to compile.  I believe it is probably
the most complete OB for the Germans down to company level available
on the Hurtgen.  If anyone had the time or inclination, this could
be done on any of the battles of WWII.  The US tactical intelligence
was quite good, to the surprise of many.  One of the German generals
commented after the war that the American intelligence had identified
35 of 37 ad hoc formations within his division.

Hope this is of interest.  BTW, does anyone know what a Puppchen is/was
I believe it was a 88mm German recoilless weapon, but am not sure

German Strength and Organization

H|rtgen Forest Sector November - December 1944

Glossary

AT Anti-Tank

EN Engineers

FA: Field Artillery

FJ: Falschirmjaeger (Paratroopers)

Fus: Fusilier (div recon)

HQ Headquarters

Inf: Infantry

KG: Kampfgruppe,

LMG: Light Machine Gun

mtr: Mortars

Puppchen:  believed to be 88mm recoilless rifles (need some help!)

PZ: Panzer

PzJg: Anti Tank

Repl: Replacement

Sturm:Storm or Assault

VA:  Volks Artillery Corps

VG: VolksGrenadiers

Waffenschule: Weapons School

GAF German Air Force

By Division, then regiment, then company/ battalion  (notated in the German
method ie., numbered companies, Roman numberals for battalions), location by
grid coordinated, est strength, date of report, number of POWs from unit, US
unit facing, Remarks

, , 3/3d Police Bn, , , 30, 28Nov44, , , most men in bn 50-60 yrs old WWI vets

, , 3d Police Bn, , , , 28Nov44, , , 3 mgs

, , A. Waffenschule, , 045382, , 27Nov44, 1, 22,

, , A. Waffenschule, , , 250, 28Nov44, , , 3 Cos of 80 men each

, , KG Kroeber, , 077383, 60, 4Dec44, 2, 330, 4 LMGs, org 26 Nov from
annihilated units

, 460FA, , , , , 16Nov44, , , 7x150mm

, 628FA, , , , , 16Nov44, , , 5x210mm

, 682PzJg, 682PzJg, , , , 16Nov44, , , 27 88mm PzJg Heavy

, 992FA, , , , , 16Nov44, , , 5x105mm; 4x152mm

3FJ, 8FJ, 2/I/8FJ, Lt Schwitzer, 058425, 80, 3Dec44, 6, 8, 163 on 2 Dec

3FJ, 8FJ, 3/I/8FJ, , 055430, , 4Dec44, 1, 8, in line north of Hofhardt

89Inf, 89R, 1/89Repl, , 0635, , 3Dec44, 3, 47AIB,

89Inf, 189FA, I, , , , 16Nov44, , , 7x122; 3x105mm

89Inf, 189FA, II, , , , 16Nov44, , , 5x105; 3x150mm

89Inf, 189AT, 189AT , , 0635, , 3Dec44, 1, 47AIB,

89Inf, 1055, 2/I, , 0635, , 3Dec44, 1, 47AIB,

89Inf, 1055, 5/II, , 0238, 80-100, 18Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1055, 5/II, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 1, 12, 5,6,7 consolidated into 1 co

89Inf, 1055, 6/II, , 0238, 80-100, 18Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1055, 6/II, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 1, 12, 5,6,7 consolidated into 1 co

89Inf, 1055, 6/II, , 0635, , 3Dec44, 2, 85Rcn,

89Inf, 1055, 7/II, , 025365, , 25Nov44, , , 5,6,7 consolidated into 1 co

89Inf, 1055, 8/II, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 2, 12, sev mtr, 9-10 mgs; split up
among 1055 for spt wpns

89Inf, 1055, 9/III, , 0635, , 3Dec44, 3, 47AIB,

89Inf, 1055, II, , , 350-400, 18Nov44, , , 5,6,7,8 companies

89Inf, 1055, II, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 1, 12,

89Inf, 1056, 10/III, LT Schwarz, 038373, 30, 23Nov44, , ,

89Inf, 1056, 10/III, , 0437, , 25Nov44, 17, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 10/III, , 0538, 30, 26Nov44, 3, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 10/III, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 21, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 10/III, , 052386, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 11/III, , 0438, 30, 23Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 11/III, , 0437, , 25Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 11/III, , 0538, 25, 26Nov44, 5, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 11/III, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 25, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 12/III, , 035373, 30, 23Nov44, 2, 22, 6x81mm mtrs;4HMGs

89Inf, 1056, 12/III, , 0437, , 25Nov44, 2, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 14, , , , 29Nov44, 2, 12,

89Inf, 1056, 14, , 0635, , 3Dec44, 1, 47AIB,

89Inf, 1056, 5/II, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 6/II, , 045382, 100, 27Nov44, 3, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 6/II, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 8, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 7/II, , 049398, , 30Nov44, 1, 12,

89Inf, 1056, 9/III, , 041368, 30, 23Nov44, , ,

89Inf, 1056, 9/III, , 0437, , 25Nov44, 14, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 9/III, , 0538, , 26Nov44, 5, 22,

89Inf, 1056, 9/III, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

89Inf, 1056, KG Pirschmann, , , 40, 30Nov44, , , Composed of  remnants of 1056

89Inf, 1056, HQ, Col Roesler, , , 24Nov44, , ,

89Inf, 1056, III, , 0437, 50, 27Nov44, , , all that remains is 50

116PZ, 60PG, 9, , , , 15Nov44, 1, 12, HowCo 3plt 1lt, 2 hvy

116Pz, 146FA, I, , , , 16Nov44, , , 4x105; 3x150mm

116Pz, 146FA, II, , , , 16Nov44, , , 3x105; 4x100mm

116PZ, 156PG, 156PG, , , , , , , Org 2bns of 4 Co's ea w/ea co 40 men.  8th Co
4 81mm

116PZ, 156PG, 6/II, , , 35, 18Nov44, 3, 8, No hvy wpns

116PZ, 156PG, 7/II, , , , 18Nov44, 2, 8, No hvy wpns

116PZ, 156PG, I-II/156PG, , 0944-0042, 150, 18Nov44, , 8,

272VG, 272FA, IV, , , , 16Nov44, , , 12x105mm

272VG, 981, 3/I, Lt Kanot, 065392, , 3Dec44, 3, 22,

272VG, 981, 3/I, Lt Kanot, 065392, 12, 3Dec44, 2, 330,

272VG, 981, 4/I, , , 60, 3Dec44, , ,

272VG, 981, 5/II, , 0640, 75, 3Dec44, 5, 12, south of 7 Co

272VG, 981, 5/II, , 0640, , 3Dec44, 1, 12,

272VG, 981, 6/II, , 068407, 60, 3Dec44, 1, 12,

272VG, 981, 7/II, , 0640, 70, 3Dec44, 2, 12, south of 6 Co

272VG, 981, 7/II, , 0640, 45, 3Dec44, 3, 12,

272VG, 981, 8/II, , 0640, , 3Dec44, 1, 12,

272VG, 981, 981, , , , 3Dec44, , , 13 & 14 Cos puppchen and bazookas

275VG, v.Bott, 1/18GAF, CptScherze, 012382, , 17Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, v.Bott, 1/18GAF, , 0238, , 18Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, v.Bott, 1/18GAF, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 4, 12,

275VG, v.Bott, 1/AOK7, , 038390, , , , , 5-6 81mm mtr

275VG, v.Bott, 1/AOK7, , , 100, 24Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, v.Bott, 2/AOK7, , , , 24Nov44, , , mortars and puppchen

275VG, v.Bott, 2/AOK7, , 03543900, , 25Nov44, , , 5-6 81mm mtrs

275VG, v.Bott, 2/AOK7, , 0538, 50, 26Nov44, 2, 22, 5-6 81mm mtr

275VG, v.Bott, AOK7, , 045382, 20, 27Nov44, 1, 22, 1 & 2 Cos merged

275VG, v.Bott, CTWeinan, , 025365, 40-50, 25Nov44, 8, 12,

275VG, v.Bott, XXXI MG Bn, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

275VG, 275VG, HQ/275VG, MG Schmidt, , , 16Nov44, , ,

275VG, 275E, 2/275En, , 020378, 50-60, 18Nov44, 15, 22, employed as infantry

275VG, 275R, 2/275Repl, , 015382, , 17Nov44, 4, 22, 2 and 3d Companies

275VG, 275R, 2/275Repl, , 0238, , 18Nov44, 3, 22,

275VG, 275AT, 275ATCo, Cpt Breitborn, , 40-60, 27Nov44, 11, 12, 8x75mm AT

275VG, 275R, 3/275Repl, Lt Angels, 015365, , 9Nov44, 1, 12,

275VG, 275R, 3/275Repl, , 012380, 70, 17Nov44, 4, 22, intermingled

275VG, 275R, 3/275Repl, , 0238, , 18Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, 275FA, 4/275FA, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

275VG, 275FA, 6/275FA, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 1, 12,

275VG, 275FA, 6/II, , , 40e, 24Nov44, , ,

275VG, 275FA, HQ/275FA, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 2, 12,

275VG, 275, SchanzCo/   KG Wegelin, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 5, 22,

275VG, 983, 14, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 3, 22,

275VG, 984, 1/I, Lt Linhard, , , 17Nov44, 1, 8,

275VG, 984, 1/I, Lt Linhard, 011419, , 18Nov44, 1, 8,

275VG, 984, 2/I, Lt Dopler, 020415, 50, 17Nov44, 11, 8,

275VG, 984, 3/I, , 017418, 80, 17Nov44, , 8,

275VG, 984, 3/I, Lt Boehme, 025410, , 23Nov44, 1, 8, remnants of II
incorporated into II

275VG, 984, 3/I, , 046407, , 27Nov44, 1, 8,

275VG, 984, 5/II, , 0538, , 30Nov44, 2, 22,

275VG, 984, 6/II, , 0538, , 30Nov44, 6, 22,

275VG, 984, 8/II, , , , 17Nov44, 3, 8,

275VG, 984, 8/II, , 035411, , 23Nov44, 1, 8,

275VG, 984, II, , 0538, 40, 29Nov44, , , Remnants of 5,6,7 arrived Grosshau

275VG, 985, 1/20GAF, Lt Frank, 0135, 60, 10Nov44, 20, 12, 20th GAF consisted of
680-700 airmen from interpreters school

275VG, 985, 1/20GAF, , 0133, 2/17, 12Nov44, 1, 12, 4MGs 6 Puppchen

275VG, 985, HQ/275Fus, Maj Meyer, , , , , ,

275VG, 985, HQ/275Fus, Cpt Ashaber, , , , , ,

275VG, 985, 1/275Fus, Lt Goessel, 015349, , 17Nov44, 4, 12,

275VG, 985, 1/275Fus, Lt Enderer, 025365, , 23Nov44, 1, 12,

275VG, 985, 1/I, Lt Weiss, 0335, , 10Nov44, 5, 12,

275VG, 985, 1031S/18GAF, , 011419, 84, 18Nov44, 10, 22, 2LMGs,5 PzFausts, Org
9/44

275VG, 985, 14, , 016358, 60, 23Nov44, 4, 12, 4 puppchen; 6 bazooka

275VG, 985, 14, Cpt Koch, , , 26Nov44, 5, 12,

275VG, 985, 14, , 0638, , 30Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, 985, 2/18GAF, Lt Grill, 015380, 100, 17Nov44, 9, 22, N flank of 4th Co

275VG, 985, 2/18GAF, , 0238, 75, 18Nov44, 3, 22,

275VG, 985, 2/18GAF, , 0438, , 24Nov44, 2, 22,

275VG, 985, 2/20GAF, , 020378, 100, 18Nov44, 1, 22, 20 GAF Co's each app 80-100

275VG, 985, 2/20GAF, , 015369, 70, 23Nov44, 5, 12/22, 12 mgs, 6-9 mtrs

275VG, 985, 2/20GAF, , 0538, , 26Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, 985, 2/20GAF, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

275VG, 985, 2/275Fus, Lt Lengfeld, , , 16Nov44, 3, 12,

275VG, 985, 2/275Fus, Lt Lengfeld, , , 17Nov44, 3, 22,

275VG, 985, 3/18GAF, Cpt Adelberg, 002387, , 15 Nov44, 3, 377AA, formed 9/44 CZ

275VG, 985, 3/18GAF, Cpt Adelberg, , 100, 17Nov44, , 22, S flank of 4th Co

275VG, 985, 3/18GAF, Cpt Adelberg, 0238, 75, 18Nov44, 1, 22,

275VG, 985, 3/20GAF, , 0135, , 10Nov44, 7, 12, the GAF interpreters school,

275VG, 985, 4/18GAF, , 015386-016381, 100, 17Nov44, 23, 22,

275VG, 985, 4/18GAF, , 0238, , 18Nov44, 8, 22, 6HMGs, 9 81mm mtrs, PzFasut, 2
Puppchen

275VG, 985, 4/275Fus, , 025365, , 23Nov44, 1, 12,

275VG, 985, 4/I, , 025365, , 23Nov44, 6, 12,

275VG, 985, 4/I, , , , 26Nov44, 37, 12,

275VG, 985, 5/20GAF, , 0135, , 10Nov44, 3, 12, renamed II/985

275VG, 985, 5/II, , 0335, , 10Nov44, 3, 12,

275VG, 985, 5/II, , , , 23Nov44, 4, 12,

275VG, 985, 5/II, , 025365, 12, 23Nov44, 25, 12,

275VG, 985, 5/II, , , , 26Nov44, 5, 12,

275VG, 985, 6/II, , , , 23Nov44, 2, 12,

275VG, 985, 6/II, , , , 26Nov44, 10, 12,

275VG, 985, 6/II, , 0538, 15-17, 26Nov44, 3, 22,

275VG, 985, 6/II, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

275VG, 985, 7/II, , 016362, 60, , 4, 12, 7 mg ; remnants of 1 & 3 20 GAF

275VG, 985, 7/II, , 015372, 80, 17Nov44, , 22, in same location

275VG, 985, 7/II, , 016358, , 23Nov44, 23, 12,

275VG, 985, 7/II, , 025365, 25, 23Nov44, 2, 12,

275VG, 985, 7/II, , 025365, , 25Nov44, 4, 12,

275VG, 985, 7/II, , , , 26Nov44, 5, 12,

275VG, 985, 7/II, , 0538, , 26Nov44, 2, 22,

275VG, 985, 8/II, , 015372, 80, 17Nov44, 1, 22, 7 and 8th Companies

275VG, 985, 8/II, , 025365, 20, 23Nov44, 16, 12,

275VG, 985, 8/II, , , , 26Nov44, 3, 12,

275VG, 985, Bn Koehler, , 040368, 70, 27Nov44, , , fmr II remn of KE
Dieselhorst,191 F Co,Co Quast

some mtrs & 1 75mm AT gun

275VG, 985, Co Quast, , 040368, 15, 27Nov44, , ,

275VG, 985, HQ, , , , 26Nov44, 3, 12, 985 as such no more remnants incorpoarted
into 344VG

275VG, 985, HQ/18GAF, Cpt Soedermann, , , 16Nov44, , ,

275VG, 985, HQ/18GAF, Cpt Pomneter, 015380, , 17Nov44, 2, 22,

275VG, 985, HQ/18GAF, Cpt Baumrater, , , 18Nov44, , ,

275VG, 985, HQ/20GAF, Cpt Loener, , , 12Nov44, , ,

275VG, 985, HQ/20GAF, , , , 23Nov44, 1, 12, new name II/985

275VG, 985, HQ/II, , 025365, , 23Nov44, 2, 12,

275VG, 985, HQ/II, , , , 26Nov44, 8, 12, II Bn almost annihilated, only 6/II
left

275VG, 985, KGDieselhorst, , , 25, 26Nov44, 10, 12, atch 6/II; 2mgs

275VG, 985, KGDieselhorst, , 040368, 15-20, 27Nov44, 1, 12,

344VG, 344R, 1/191Repl, Lt Braun, , 60, 27Nov44, , , 191 Repl frmr VI GAF

344VG, 344R, 1/191Repl, Lt Braun, 0538, , 29Nov44, 15, 22,

344VG, 344R, 1/344Repl, , 0538, 80, 30Nov44, 1, 12, 12mgs, LW sol w/ in off and
NCOs

344VG, 344F, 191FusCo, , , 30, 26Nov44, 13, 12, atch I  10-12mgs

344VG, 344F, 191FusCo, Lt Bott, 040368, 20, 27Nov44, , ,

344VG, 344R, 2/191Repl, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 27, 22,

344VG, 344R, 2/191Repl, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 2, 22,

344VG, 344, 2/33En, , 0640, 100, 2Dec44, 2, 12, acting as infantry 2plts of 50
each

344VG, 344, 2/33En, Lt Brueckmann, , 40, 3Dec44, , , only company remaining

344VG, 344VG, HQ/344, BG Koenig, , , , , ,

344VG, 344R, 3/344Repl, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 7, 22,

344VG, 344R, 3/344Repl, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 3, 22,

344VG, 344F, 344FusCo, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 9, 22,

344VG, 344M, 4-677HospCo, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 1, 12,

344VG, 344R, 4/344Repl, , 055401, 80, 30Nov44, 2, 12, 12mgs , LW sol w/ in off
and NCOs

344VG, 344R, 4/344Repl, , 0640, 40, 1Dec44, 6, 12, now desig 4/I, few mgs

344VG, 344R, 4/344Repl, , 0640, 20, 1Dec44, 5, 12, absorbed 30 from 2/33En

344Vg, 344R, 4/344Repl, , 068395, 20, 3Dec44, , , org 24 Nov, renamed KG Held

344VG, 344R, 6/344Repl, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 6, 22,

344VG, 344, KGBraun, Lt Braun, , , 30Nov44, , , Composed of remnants of 1057,
1058, 191 Repl, & A Waffenschule

344VG, 1057, 1/I, Lt Born, 034387, , 23Nov44, 3, 22,

344VG, 1057, 1/I, Lt Born, 0543, 25, 24Nov44, , ,

344VG, 1057, 1/I, , 045385, 12, 25Nov44, 14, 22,

344VG, 1057, 1/I, , , , 26Nov44, 1, 12,

344VG, 1057, 1/I, , 045382, , 27Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 10/III, , 048407, , 26Nov44, 2, 8,

344VG, 1057, 10/III, , , 50, 27Nov44, 1, 12,

344VG, 1057, 12/III, , 0538, , 2Dec44, 2, 46AIB,

344VG, 1057, 13, , 041417, 50, 23Nov44, 1, 8, 6 75mmAT, 6 88mm Rkt guns

344VG, 1057, 13, , , , 24Nov44, , , 1plt 120mm mtr; 18 81mm mtrs

344VG, 1057, 2/I, Lt Peters, 035373, , 23Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 2/I, , 045385, 5, 25Nov44, 20, 22,

344VG, 1057, 2/I, , , , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 2/I, , 0639, , 30Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 3/I, Lt Wolters, 0543, 40, 24Nov44, , ,

344VG, 1057, 3/I, Lt Wolters, 0538, , 25Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 3/I, Lt Wolters, 045385, 20, 25Nov44, 21, 22,

344VG, 1057, 3/I, , 045383, 40, 26Nov44, , ,

344VG, 1057, 4/I, , 034387, 55, 23Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 4/I, , 045385, , 25Nov44, 6, 22,

344VG, 1057, 4/I, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 3, 12,

344VG, 1057, 5/II, , 035417, 55, 23Nov44, 36, 8,

344VG, 1057, 5/II, , 041417, , 23Nov44, 2, 8,

344VG, 1057, 5/II, , , , 29Nov44, 2, 12, annihilated according to PW

344VG, 1057, 5/II, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 6, 12,

344VG, 1057, 6/II, , 041417, 60, 23Nov44, 12, 8,

344VG, 1057, 6/II, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 5, 12,

344VG, 1057, 7/II, , 034427, 70, 23Nov44, 2, 8,

344VG, 1057, 7/II, , 045382, , 27Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1057, 7/II, , , , 29Nov44, 15, 12, annihilated according to PW

344VG, 1057, 8/II, , 034417, 60, 23Nov44, 8, 8,

344VG, 1057, 8/II, , 041417, , 23Nov44, , ,

344VG, 1057, 9/III, , 0640, , 1Dec44, , 12, 9/III = 15 tot cap

344VG, 1057, HQ, Col Lott, 0354419, , 23Nov44, 1, 8,

344VG, 1057, HQ, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 14, 12,

344VG, 1057, HQ/II, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 1, 12,

344VG, 1057, I, , , , 27Nov44, , , I Bn rptd dest; incorporated into 1058

344VG, 1057, I, , , , 29Nov44, , , I fighting together with I

344VG, 1057, II, , 0343-0441, , , , , North to South 6, 7, 8, 5 Cos

344VG, 1057, Sturm, , 034417, 100, 23Nov44, 1, 8,

344VG, 1057, Sturm, , 041417, 85, 23Nov44, 1, 8, asgn to II Bn

344VG, 1057, Sturm, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 1/I, , 045385, , 25Nov44, 21, 22,

344VG, 1058, 1/I, , , , 26Nov44, 2, 12,

344VG, 1058, 1/I, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 10/III, , 042386, , 23Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 10/III, , 0437, , 25Nov44, 3, 22,

344VG, 1058, 10/III, , 0538, , 26Nov44, 5, 22,

344VG, 1058, 10/III, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 6, 22,

344VG, 1058, 10/III, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 11/III, , 035375, , 23Nov44, 4, 12,

344VG, 1058, 12/III, , 0437, , 25Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 12/III, , 0538, 20, 26Nov44, 2, 22, asgn to 9th/III

344VG, 1058, 13, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 14, 22,

344VG, 1058, 13, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 2/I, , 045382, , 27Nov44, 3, 22,

344VG, 1058, 3/I, , 035373, , 23Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 3/I, Lt Hartmann, , 20, 26Nov44, 5, 12, 3 mgs

344VG, 1058, 4/I, , 035373, 80, 23Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 5/II, , 025410, , 23Nov44, 1, 8,

344VG, 1058, 5/II, , 035411, 30, 24Nov44, 22, 8,

344VG, 1058, 5/II, , 045382, , 27Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 5/II, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 5/II, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 6/115/47VG, , , , 24Nov44, 2, 8, lost from parent unit, put into
line

344VG, 1058, 6/II, , , 45, 23Nov44, , ,

344VG, 1058, 6/II, , 045385, , 25Nov44, 4, 22,

344VG, 1058, 6/II, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 7/II, , 025110, 45, 23Nov44, 37, 8,

344VG, 1058, 7/II, , 041417, , 24Nov44, 1, 8,

344VG, 1058, 8/II, , , 60, 23Nov44, , ,

344VG, 1058, 8/II, , 045382, , 27Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, 9/III, , 042386, , 23Nov44, 2, 22,

344VG, 1058, 9/III, , 044385, 50, 23Nov44, 4, 22, 5-6 MGs

344VG, 1058, 9/III, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 1, 22,

344VG, 1058, A/115/47VG, , 033427, , 24Nov44, 1, 8, lost from parent unit, put
into line

344VG, 1058, HQ, , , , 23Nov44, 11, 12,

344VG, 1058, HQ, , 025365, , 23Nov44, 6, 12,

344VG, 1058, HQ, , , 10, 26Nov44, 2, 12,

344VG, 1058, HQ, , 0538, , 30Nov44, 2, 22,

344VG, 1058, HQ/I, , 0538, , 29Nov44, 6, 22,

344VG, 1058, HQ/II, , 0414417, , 23Nov44, 1, 8,

344VG, 1058, HQ/II, , 043421, , 24Nov44, 2, 8,

344VG, 1058, II, , , 40, 27Nov44, , , all that remains is 40

344VG, 1058, III, , 037372, 30, , , , Rem of all 9,10,11,12 incorporated into
1, 2 mgs

344VG, 1058, III, , 035373, , 23Nov44, 2, 22,

344VG, 1058, III, , 069395, 75, 2Dec44, , , consolidated into 9 Co

353VG, 353E, 1/353En, , 058425, 150, 3Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 353F, 1/353Fus, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 1, 12,

353VG, 353R, 1/353Repl, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 18, 8,

353VG, 353R, 1/353Repl, , 055421, , 4Dec44, 3, 8,

353VG, 353F, 2/353Fus, Lt Thunet, , 60, 4Dec44, 2, 12,

353VG, 353R, 2/353Repl, , , , 1Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 353R, 2/353Repl, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 5, 8,

353VG, 353R, 2/353Repl, , 058426, 26, 3Dec44, 5, 8, 2d Co split up 1 Dec
between 5 & 7

353VG, 353R, 2/353Repl, , 055421, , 4Dec44, 4, 8,

353VG, 353, HQ/353Repl, Cpt Fister, , , , , ,

353VG, 353F, 3/353Fus, Lt Kammerer, , 40, 30Nov44, 2, 12, asgn 942 6 mgs

353VG, 353F, 3/353Fus, , 0640, , 2Dec44, 1, 12,

353VG, 353F, 3/353Fus, , , 35, 3Dec44, 2, 8, str as of 2 Dec

353VG, 353F, 3/353Fus, , 055421, 50, 4Dec44, 14, 8, str before attack

353VG, 353F, 353Fus, Cpt Theuerkauff, , 200, 30Nov44, , , 3 Rifle Cos, 1 HW co
w/ 50mm mtr

353VG, 353F, 353Fus, Cpt Theirkauffe, 058426, 170, 2Dec44, , , 12mgs

353VG, 353M, 353MedCo, , 050420, , 3Dec44, 2, 8,

353VG, 353R, 353Repl, , , , 3Dec44, , , 353Repl incorporated into 942

353VG, 353FA, 4/353FA, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 1, 12,

353VG, 353F, 4/353Fus, , , 26, 4Dec44, 2, 12, 4mgs

353VG, 353FA, 6/353FA, , 058426, , 3Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 353FA, HQ/353FA, , 058426, , 3Dec44, 2, 8,

353VG, 353F, HQ/353Fus, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 3, 12,

353VG, 941, 1/I, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 11, 22,

353VG, 941, 14, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

353VG, 941, 2/I, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 1, 22,

353VG, 941, 3/1, , 0640, 80, 30Nov44, 8, 12, 9-10 mgs; 6x81mm mtrs

353VG, 941, 3/I, , 053437, 70, 29Nov44, , ,

353VG, 941, 3/I, , 0639, , 30Nov44, 9, 22,

353VG, 941, 3/I, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 4, 22,

353VG, 941, 5/II, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

353VG, 941, 5/II, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 6, 22,

353VG, 941, 6/II, , 0639, , 30Nov44, 13, 22,

353VG, 941, 7/II, , 0638, 85, 29Nov44, 45, 22, 2LMGs

353VG, 941, 7/II, , 0639, , 30Nov44, 1, 22,

353VG, 941, HQ/I, , 0638, , 1Dec44, 1, 22,

353VG, 942, 1/I, , 043411, 50, 27Nov44, 18, 8, rel 10/III night of 26 Nov vicn
043412

353VG, 942, 1/I, , , 50, 29Nov44, , ,

353VG, 942, 1/I, Lt Arndt, 058426, 80, 3Dec44, 1, 8, 1 & 2 Cos combined into 1

353VG, 942, 2/I, Lt Kohler, 0543, 55, 29Nov44, 4, 8, 2 mgs, 30 panzer fausts

353VG, 942, 2/I, , , , 30Nov44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 4/I, , 058426, , 3Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 5/II, , 048429, , 29Nov44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 5/II, , 0542, , 2Dec44, 13, 8,

353VG, 942, 5/II, , 058426, , 3Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 6/II, , 058426, , 3Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 6/II, , 055421, 50, 4Dec44, 6, 8, 18 & 2mgs from 8

353VG, 942, 7/II, , 0543, 70, 29Nov44, 4, 8,

353VG, 942, 7/II, , , , 30Nov44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 7/II, , 052429, 80, 1Dec44, 5, 8,

353VG, 942, 7/II, , 0542, , 2Dec44, 5, 8,

353VG, 942, 8/II, , , , 29Nov44, , , some 81m mtrs

353VG, 942, 8/II, , 053429, , 1Dec44, 5, 8,

353VG, 942, 8/II, , 0542, , 2Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, 8/II, , 058426, , 3Dec44, 5, 8,

353VG, 942, 8/II, , 055421, , 4Dec44, 1, 8,

353VG, 942, HQ, , 049433, , 30Nov44, 2, 8,

353VG, 942, HQ, , 049433, , 2Dec44, 3, 8,

353VG, 942, HQ/II, Cpt Abbel, 058426, , 3Dec44, 6, 8,

353VG, 943, 1/I, , 0638, , 2Dec44, 2, 22, str before attack on 2 Dec 60

353VG, 943, 2/I, Lt Nietzke, 0638, 40, 2Dec44, 20, 22, 8mgs, str before attack
on 2 Dec 65

353VG, 943, 3/I, , 0638, 15, 2Dec44, 20, 22, 7mgs, str before attack on 2 Dec
96

353VG, 943, 4/I, , , , 2Dec44, , , 4x81mm mtr, 4x 120mm mtr

405VA, , 14/, , 0640, , 1Dec44, 1, 12, 122mm guns, 6 per battery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:36:08 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

>
> > I think I read that the Germans developed a TUNGSTEN round that
> > was used by the Ju-87.  Perhaps it was the same article that told
> > of the German pilot credited with knocking the bow off the Soviet
> > Battleship.   Was that pilot also known for being a tank busting
> > specialist?
>
> Yes. Rudel was credited with a battleship as well as 500+ tanks.
>
> Emmanuel Gustin

At the siege of Leningrad Rudel cured his sore throat (won the Knights
Cross) by dropping his 500 lb. egg right down the smokestack of the
Marat thus raising the water level well above the deck level :-)

It had the effect of breaking off the support rendered to the city by
the Soviet Navy which withdrew its remaining battlewagon (Oktober
Revolution) rather than loose it too.  This is what the Army General
commanding the siege (Manstein?) was counting on and started a close
personal liaison between Rudel and various Army commanders all along
the Russian Front who all demanded his squadron's services.

Rudel was quite a man.  He was shot down in February of 1945 and lost
a leg below the knee.  He was in FW-190s at that time.  Before the
wound completely healed he signed himself out of the hospital and
returned to command of his squadron (against Hitler's orders). He had
his mechanic design a prosthetic that would allow him to work the
rudder controls & resumed flying combat missions.  Often he would
return to his base half conscious, his cockpit awash in blood from the
leg injury.  How do you define "sense of duty"?  The above pretty
well covers it for me.

I think it was after he got the diamonds to his Knights Cross that
Hitler ordered Goring to ground Rudel rather than risk this "National
Treasure" to combat loss.  Rudel simply got around this by crediting
all subsequent victories to the squadron in general rather than taking
personal credit.  Generally, credits of this nature were due to lack
of confirmation of exactly who got what.  Things got very "confusing"
at that point relative to victories.  Russian ground commanders were
heard to curse their air support for suddenly developing mechanical
problems when it was determined that Rudel's bunch was in the
neighborhood.  This was generally followed by abrupt termination of
ground broadcasts due to 37mm indigestion.

Oh, well, I could go on all day....

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 15:39:56 -0800
From:    ALEXANDER C MALCOLM <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Julia Child: well, maybe not...!

On Tue, 29 Nov 1994, anthony anderson wrote:

> >From  Current Biography 1967 [page page 67]:
>
>     "When World War II broke out, Julia McWilliams joined the
> OSS,  hoping to become a spy. But during the war years she was,
> instead, a file clerk in Washington, D.C., Ceylon, and China. It
> was in Ceylon in 1943, on the porch of a tea planter's bungalow,
> that she met Paul Cushing Child, a painter-turned-map maker for
> the OSS. From Ceylon they were both assigned to China were
> they spent their free time succumbing to the lure of Chinese
> cusine......"
>
> Okay, I can't claim that Current Biography is the definitive
> account of Ms. Child, but I would sure like to know the source
> in print where one can find out about her alleged exploits

That biography is pretty old [1967], and seems almost too picturesque for
any normal person, let alone Julia Child.
        Remember that in 1967, many of the exploits of the O.S.S., the
pre-cursor to the C.I.A. would still be locked away.
        Quite possibly its true, however, but someone should e-mail Arts
and Entertainment network or the great lady herself and get the whole story!

                                Alexander

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 19:12:14 -0500
From:    Oliver Bonham-Carter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Der Vichy Government

Does any one know what-ever happened to the old members of the French
Vichy Government after the Gerries were given the ol' boot? Or for that
matter, what-ever happened to the Nazi-sympathizers of the countries
taken by the Germans (the ones that got jobs)?

[email-masked]
 "...So the bartender says "Hey, that's not a DUCK!"

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 20:23:44 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Julia Child: well, maybe not...!

The Julia Child details given in Current Biography are, to the best of
my recollection, exactly the same details she gave the New York Times
sometime in the past year. I also recall seeing her name in an OSS
personal file compiled by organization veterans and kept at the National
Archives, which I think listed her for China. I have no idea were A&E
got their facts.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 20:41:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 30 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 30 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A weather sortie is the only mission.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 12 B-25s and 8 P-51s damage 2
railroad bridges and several buildings at Phu Lang Thuong and Phu Ly, French
Indochina. 11 bomb 5 warehouses and several other buildings at Lashio and
Wanling, Burma. 9 fighter-bombers hit shipping, rail targets, and troops at
various points in Thailand. In China, 23 fighter-bombers attack targets of
opportunity in the Chefang area; the 25th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter
Group, based at Yunnani with P-40s and P-51s, sends a detachment to operate
from Poashan.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 9 B-25s knock out and
damage bridges at Bawgyo, Namhkai, and Hsenwi; 16 P-47s support ground forces
at Bhamo; the town of Pinwe is found to be free of enemy forces; about 70
fighter-bombers attack troops and supply areas at several locations including
Molo, Naungmo, Namun, Hkumpen, Myadaung, Kutkai, Kanbalu, Kyauk, and Natpe;
13 others attack bridges at Meza and in the Bawdwin area; 8 strafe targets of
opportunity along the Kyaukme-Panglong road. 321 transport sorties are flown
to forward areas. In India, HQ 1st Combat Cargo Group and the 4th Combat
Cargo Squadron move from Sylhet to Tulihal with C-47s; the detachment of the
5th Fighter Squadron (Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, operating from Fenny
with P-47s, returns to base at Asansol; the detachment of the 9th
Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 8th Photographic Reconnaissance Group,
operating from Tingkawk Sakan, Burma with F-5s, returns to base at
Barrackpore (other detachments are at Myitkyina, Burma and Chittagong); the
317th Troop Carrier Squadron (Commando), 2d Air Commando Group, moves from
Sylhet to Bikram with C-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 731: 1,281 bombers and 972 fighters are dispatched to hit synthetic
oil plants in SE Germany and rail targets; intense accurate flak downs 29
bombers and 3 fighters are lost:
  1. 451 B-17s are sent to hit the Zeitz (132) and Bohlen (68) oil plants;
116 hit the secondary, the Leuna oil plant at Merseburg; targets of
opportunity are Gotha (22), Gera (17), Rudolstadt (17), Fulda (12), Saalfeld
(12), Ohrdruf (10), Meerane (6) and other (9); 11 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged
beyond repair and 287 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 16 WIA and 100 MIA.
Escorting are 357 of 384 P-51s; they claim 4-0-0 aircraft in the air; 2 P-51s
are lost (pilots MIA).
  2. 539 B-17s are sent to hit the Leuna oil plant at Merseburg (301) and the
Lutzkendorf (169) oil plant; targets of opportunity are Zeitz oil plant (19),
Weissenfels (9) and other (12); 17 B-17s are lost, 6 damaged beyond repair
and 325 damaged; 17 airmen are KIA, 42 WIA and 295 MIA. Escorting are 452
P-47s and P-51s; 2 P-51s are damaged beyond repair.
  3. 291 B-24s are sent to hit marshalling yards at Neunkirchen (180) and
Homburg (104). Escorting are 56 of 60 P-47s; 1 P-47 is lost (pilot MIA).
  4. 30 of 33 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 732: 7 B-17s and 6 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS

    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): The 415th Night Fighter Squadron,
64th Fighter Wing, moves from Longvic to Ochey, France with Beaufighters.

    Ninth Air Force: In Germany, 288 B-26s and A-20s attack the defended
villages of Vettweiss, Stockheim, Erp, and Pirmasens, an armored vehicle
repair center at Gemund, a rail tunnel, a military camp at Malsbenden, and a
marshalling yard at Zweibrucken; fighters escort the 9th Bombardment
Division, give area support to Eighth AF heavy bombers at Leipzig, fly
sweeps, dive bombing missions, and reconnaissance over W Germany, and support
elements of the US VII Corps in the Hurtgen area (especially the 104th
Infantry Division at Lammersdorf and Inden). The 12th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), moves from St Dizier to
Giraumont, France with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria during the night of
29/30 Nov, 18 B-17s bomb a benzol plant at Linz; 3 others hit marshalling
yards at Villach, Klagenfurt, and Gmunden. B-24s hit marshalling yards at
Munich, Germany and Innsbruck, Austria. During the day P-38s and P-51s fly
reconnaissance over Yugoslavia, Italy, and Germany.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb bridges at
Romano di Lombardia and Crema; fighters and fighter-bombers attack
communications in the Po Valley, cutting rail lines and destroying a large
number of railroad cars and motor transport; targets also include bridges,
guns, and buildings.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 23 B-24s from Saipan Island bomb the airfield
on Iwo Jima Island. 8 Guam Island-based B-24s, escorting photo aircraft over
the Kazan and Bonin Islands, bomb Haha Jima Island. 37 from Angaur Island hit
Legaspi Airfield on Luzon Island. During the night of 29/30 Nov, 2 B-24s from
Guam and Saipan Islands, bomb the Iwo Jima airfield during snooper missions.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s in major
strikes of the day hit Malimpoeng and Parepare Airfields on Celebes Island,
Legaspi Airfield on Luzon Island, Matina Airfield on Mindanao Island, and 4
airfields on Halmahera Island. B-25s strike Dumaguete Airfield on Negros
Island. Fighter-bombers, B-24s, and B-25s fly armed reconnaissance, harassing
strikes, and light raids over various areas of the Netherlands East Indies
and Philippine Islands. The air echelons of the 36th and 80th Fighter
Squadrons, 8th Fighter Group, operating from Morotai Island with P-38s,
return to base at Dulag, Leyte Island; the 340th Fighter Squadron, 348th
Fighter Group, moves from Noemfoor Island to Tacloban, Leyte Island with
P-47s; the ground echelon of the 418th Night Fighter Squadron begins a
movement from Dulag, Leyte Island to San Jose, Mindoro Island (air echelon is
on Morotai Island with P-61s).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

30/0141Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 21:50:55 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 22d Inf in the Hurtgen 30 Nov 44

The 22 Infantry in the Hurtgen Forest 30 November

The 22d Regiment's next objective was the wooded area between Grosshau and Gey,
the last bit of the H|rtgen Forest before the Roer plain.  Lanham ordered the
2d and 3d Battalions to attack northeast to the edge of the woods facing Gey.
The 1st Battalion remained the regimental reserve and occupied the 3d
Battalion's positions when they moved out. Lanham ordered the 46th Armored
Infantry Battalion, attached temporarily to the 22d Infantry, to attack on the
right of the 2d Battalion 22d Infantry, toward Hill 401.5. This maneuver would
close the gap between the 22d and the 5th Armored Division in Kleinhau.  When
giving the orders, Lanham said that he did not believe the battalions' missions
were difficult.

The morning of 30 November, the 3d Battalion began its advance toward the
woodline facing Gey.  Love Company was on the left and Item Company was on the
right. Fourteen tanks and tank destroyers supported the attack with eight on
one flank of the battalion and six on the other.   The tanks and tank
destroyers on both sides then crossed their fires in front of the advancing
infantry.  As the 3d Battalion Narrative relates, this was a

". . . rather ticklish maneuver to make--that is to keep the tanks on both
sides abreast of the infantry--It is remarkable that only once did one of the
tanks get a little behind and accidentally shot four of our men."

The Germans replied to the attack with heavy shelling, but this time focused
mainly on the armor.

The attack was successful.  When the 3d Battalion reached the edge of the woods
just above the east-west stretch of the Gey road, the battalion commanded the
open ground south of Gey.  At this point, the 1st Battalion moved forward to
the position the 3d Battalion had left northeast of Grosshau.

The 2d Battalion's attack ran into much more difficulty.  The battalion had to
advance over 800 yards of open ground east of Grosshau, enter the woods and
continue its attack towards Gey.  George Company attacked on the right, Fox
Company on the left, while Easy Company remained in reserve in Grosshau.  In
the words of Lieutenant George Wilson, Fox Company Commander, the first 300
yards reminded him of training exercises conducted in the United States.  Then,
as Wilson writes, "the sky fell in and we were in hell."  From front and flanks
the Germans had perfect observation of the assault companies as they moved
across the open ground, and kept them under violent and accurate fire with
machine guns, 88's, air-bursts, and heavy caliber artillery.  Lieutenant Mason
observed that the German timed fire was the most perfect he had ever seen, with
the shells exploding about thirty or forty feet off the ground.  Soldiers moved
forward by jumping from one shell hole to another.

When Fox and George Companies reached the edge of the woods, they had between
them one officer and less than a hundred men.  Wilson pulled the remainder
of his company back about
300 yards to a German trench.  This move left a net advance for the day of
about 500 yards.

During the 2d Battalion's ordeal in the open field, Major Goforth, commander of
the 1st Battalion, informed Lanham that Baker Company in Grosshau continued to
receive sniper fire from Germans still in the village.  Lanham directed the
battalion "not to take any more prisoners from Grosshau."

The 46th Armored Infantry Battalion lost 50 percent of its strength trying to
reach its line of departure on Hill 401.5.  The Germans located on the hill
effectively stopped the attack before it started.  Instead of assisting the
22d's advance, the units of the 2d Battalion had to swing right to permit the
46th to withdraw.  Units became intermingled; George Company's 2d Platoon
strayed into the 46th sector and joined a company of the 46th until 3 December
when the 22d was relieved.

Losses for the day were heavy.  The battalions' reported to regimental
headquarters 178 casualties, most of whom had fallen in Fox and George
Companies' attack across the open field.  Seven replacements arrived to fill
the ranks. The personnel shortages in the rifle companies caused Lanham to
lower the efficiency of the regiment from "good" to "fair".  The battalion
commanders now developed their orders in much greater detail because so many
leaders were new.  Battalion commanders began maneuvering the decimated
companies like platoons and the remaining veterans were leading the
replacements from the front, increasing their risk of being killed or wounded
and ultimately decreasing the units' effectiveness.

The soldiers in the rifle companies now faced a new problem, the shortage of
drinking water.  Earlier in the battle, soldiers had obtained water from the
Weisser Weh Creek.  Now they had to find water in small streams and then carry
it up to the soldiers on the front lines. Private First Class Fern L. Hartman
noted the severity of the crisis and what soldiers did to obtain water:

"We had plenty of rat[ion]s, food and ammunition, but never enough water.  We
put raincoats over our holes and tried to catch some of the rain and sleet, but
invariably a shell would come along and splash some mud into what we had
carefully collected."

The use of raincoats to acquire water worked when the soldiers were not moving,
but they certainly must have gone without water for long periods when they were
attacking.

>From Paschendale with Treebursts

Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 21:54:52 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Navy Citations

Can anybody tell me where I might locate the citation awarded by the navy
during WWII, or the details of the conditions of awarding a particular
Air Medal to a particualr individual.  I would like the specific wording
of the citation which was awarded in 1943.

Please respond privately as I have had to temporarily cancel my list
membership because of computer problems here.

Thank you.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  |         [email-masked] |                                    |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 28 Nov 1994 to 29 Nov 1994
*************************************************