Subject: WWII-L Digest - 17 Nov 1994 to 18 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 00:02:05 -0500

There are 48 messages totalling 1804 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ACES: (15)
  2. HIST: PTO vs. ETO (2)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 11-18-94
  4. Aces (2)
  5. WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO (6)
  6. 22d Infantry Hurtgen 20 Nov 44
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 19-NOV-1944
  8. Dieppe Raid in 1942
  9. Official Secrets Act (1911) (3)
 10. WHAT-IF:Yamamoto (3)
 11. Hollywood in World War II
 12. B-17 Flying Fortress computer game (2)
 13. WW 2 Reproductions needed! (4)
 14. African-Americans in the Marine Corps
 15. 50TH: BATTLE OF THE HUERTGEN FOREST
 16. Netherlands query
 17. test (2)
 18. retrieval

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 17 Nov 1994 21:59:26 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

If you{can FTP to wiretap.spies.com /pub/  there is an area there
somehwere that has a document called fighter.pil that lists exactly the
information you're looking for.

On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Scott C Stathis wrote:

> Does someone out there know the leading Aces for each country. I know
> some but am missing others. Also does anyone know of a good book on WWII
> Ace?.  Lastly could you please included the plane they flow the most and
> their # of kills.
>
>
>            Country     Name    Kills   Plane
>
>            Germany    Hartmann   364    Me-109G-6
>
>            U.S.A      Bong        40    P-38J
>
>            U.S.S.R     ?           ?      ?
>
>            Britain     ?           ?      ?
>
>            Japan       ?           ?      ?
>
>
> Thanks
> Scott Stathis
> [email-masked]
> Umass-Amherst
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:01:37 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

I think that the points are well taken save one-Operation Iceberg
(Okinowa) was a bigger operation than Normandy-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | Faber est suae quisque fortunae-
Grad Student            |
Department of History   | Each man is the smith of his own fortune-
University of Arkansas  |
[email-masked]   | -Appius Claudius Caecus

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-18-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/18 Sat.  United States naval vessels sunk:
             LST 6, by mine, Seine River, France.
             PT-311, by mine, Mediterranean area,
              43 d. 41'N., 09 d. 37'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 156, by submarine SPADEFISH
              (SS-411), Yellow Sea,
              33 d. 07'N., 123 d. 09'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:37:37 +1523847
From:    Kevin Noonan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Aces

>From:    Scott C Stathis <[email-masked]>
>Subject: ACES:
>
>Does someone out there know the leading Aces for each country. I know
>some but am missing others. Also does anyone know of a good book on
>WWII Ace?.  Lastly could you please included the plane they flow the most
>and their # of kills.
>
>
>           Country     Name    Kills   Plane
>
>           Germany    Hartmann   364    Me-109G-6
>
>           U.S.A      Bong        40    P-38J
>
>           U.S.S.R     ?           ?      ?
>
>           Britain     ?           ?      ?
>
>           Japan       ?           ?      ?
>
A book I have at home (750km away :( called Aces High seems to be a highly
regarded (tho' i make no claims for its complete accuracy)  Austhors
Christopher Shores and Clive Williams is exclusively about Commonwealth
and British Aces.

How about extending this to include some of the major combatants :)
Australia for example? or Poland?

Was it Caldwell or Truscott?

I remember a problem with the British top Ace ... (sorry I don't have
_any_ of my books with me) records say it was Johnston but there was a
fellow invovled in the Greek campaign who was reliably said to have shot
more down but with the total loss of records his status cannot be confirmed

I also know argument still rages about many of the aces ... for example
Joachim Marseille (sp) who was supposed to have shot down 17 in a day in North
Africa except British records show no such losses on the day involved

Can any of the real experts offer advice on these three matters

Kevin Noonan
[email-masked]

Todays quote:
You seem to be batting into sticky water

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:04:18 +0100
From:    Ludwig Goller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO

On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Edward S. Miller wrote:
[some good points about Yamamoto deleted]
>
> Terry: If Yamamoto really understood U.S. industrial power, why did he
> insist on a strategy that assured total mobilization of that power for
> Japan's utter destruction?  Surely he knew that America could replace any
> losses at Pearl Harbor.
>
Hello,
I'm not Terry, but nevertheless I would like to throw in a few further
aspects:
AFAIK, the evil thing about Pearl Harbour was, that the attack occurred
_before_ an official declaration of war. Yamamotos plan was to declare
war and _then_ to attack PH, giving the US such a heavy blow that they
would be demoralized. Unfortunately for Y., the declaration was delayed
and the result was the adverse of what Y. had anticipated.
Y. knew, that the industrial power of the US could only be countered from
a strong defensive perimeter. To overextend this perimeter was the real
error of the Japanese HQ, which was dominated by the Army that did not
realize that after Midway, the Navy would not be capable anymore to
protect army operations on Guadalcanal, New Guinea and so on.
I read something like that in Dull, A Battle History of the Imperial
Japanese Navy.

Ludwig

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:16:53 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 22d Infantry Hurtgen 20 Nov 44

Please excuse the choppiness of the notes.  I failed to read after
uploading and word/sentences either were garbled or eliminated completely.
If there are questions about missing parts of the posts, I will be
glad to clarify.

Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 04:51:31 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 19-NOV-1944

On 19-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Advances occur along the entire Allied front. In the
British 2nd Army sector, the Plummern area is cleared of German resistance
by the 84th Division. Helden and Panningen is captured by the 51st
Division. In the US 3rd Army sector, Metz is surrounded by the US XX Corps.
The 6th Armoured Division reaches Gros-Tenquin and Bertring. The 2nd
Armoured DIvision (US 9th Army, XIX Corps) hold against strong German
counter-attacks towards Apweiler. Geilenkirchen is occupied. The French 2nd
Armoured Division reaches Cirey. The VI Corps is approaching the Meurthe.
The 100th Division, which is already across the river, is advancing towards
the area of the Raon. In the French 1st Army sector, the 2nd Moroccan
Division and the 5th Armoured Division reach the edge of Belfort.

Philippines (Leyte) - The Infantry is forced to withdraw on Kilay Ridge
becuase of heavy Japanese fire.

Philippines (Luzon) - Aircraft from McCain's carriers carry out additional
attacks on Japanese ships in the Luzon area and on Luzon itself where they
destroy many aircraft on the ground.

Burma - The Chindwin river is crossed by the 19th Indian Division.

The Homefront
-------------
Sixth War Loan Drive - President Roosevelt begins the Sixth War Loan drive
with a radio address in which he says that the daily cost of the war is
$250,000,000.

Telephone Workers Strike - Telephone operators in Dayton, Ohio have gone on
strike in protest against the importation of out-of-town operators.

Pro Football - New York 24, Green Bay 0; Boston 13, Brooklyn 6;
Philadelphia 37, Washington 7; Detroit 41, Chicago 21; Cleveland 33,
Cards-Pitt 6.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica and "Time" magazine.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:13:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Scott!

 I think I can help here.

> >            U.S.S.R     Kozhedub    57 kills
> >
> >            Britain     J. E. Johnson  38 kills
> >
> >            Japan       Nishizawa      104

    I don't have access to the first names, but can get them for you.
Will have them for you on Monday or earlier.

    Canada's was Pattle who shot down 41 aircraft and was the leading
scorer for the Commonwealth.

    If you need any other data on any ace of WWII,please let me know.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:15:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, again,Scott!

With reference to plane here goes:

    Nishizawa--Mitsubishi Zero

    Johnson--Supermarine Spitfire

    Kozhedub-will have to check on this one.

    More later.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:18:46 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Dieppe Raid in 1942

Hello, Emery!

Thank you for the note. I will check out Zeitzler's career. I have it
in its entirety and something should be said about this in that. I
will get back to you.

I have no doubt that Seaton is correct here, but it is not generally
known.

I will get back to you, and thanks for your note. I always enjoy
hearing from you.

All the best, Emery.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 06:27:37 MST
From:    Anwar Kassam <[email-masked]>
Subject: Official Secrets Act (1911)

Is anyone aware of Official Secrets Act(1911) in Britain. Apparently, Churchill coull    ll
could not reveal much information on the Dieppe Raid because of this act. If thi
this is true, I would like to know what did the act say. Thanks.
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:28:14 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO

Hello, Edward!

Will try to answer your question below.

> Terry: If Yamamoto really understood U.S. industrial power, why did he
> insist on a strategy that assured total mobilization of that power for
> Japan's utter destruction?  Surely he knew that America could replace any
> losses at Pearl Harbor.

    Yammamoto was certainly a realist when it came to assessing this
country's industrial and military capabilities. He came to know this
country well in the 1920's when he was stationed here as a naval
attache.

    Yammamoto did his best to dissuade his country from going to war
against the U.S. But when it came down to the nitty-gritty, that is
to say, when the fatal decision was taken to carry out the PH attack,
Yammamoto committed himself to the operation wholeheartedly and to the
long-term military preparations for war on a grand scale.

    You are right. He did know that this country could replace all
major losses quickly, but he was not a traitor, but a loyal Japanese
officer and to act or think otherwise, when the decision was taken,
would have been unthinkable, and that is why he backed the operation
and his country's war against the US. Fatalistic, yes, but Yammamoto
was a dedicated officer.

    My thoughts on this, and I would like your response.

    Thanks for the note, and all the best, Edward.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:32:27 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF:Yamamoto

Hello, Jim!

If I may, I would tend to disagree with that assessment. As was
pointed out, Yammamoto was a well-known and "respected" adversary.  I
really doubt that he would have been tried for war crimes, certainly
not on the scale as Keitel or Jodl, but I don't see him being hanged
for his attack on PH. He may have been tried and may have spent some
time behind bars, but I don't see him being hanged.

Commander Genda was the officer who planned the operation. Would you
hang him or put him on trial? He survived the war and wasn't tried.
Fuchida who led the attack survived the war and went on to become a
minister. Would you have tried him?

 My two cents'
worth anyway.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:53:03 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

As a followup to an earlier posting regarding Hollywood mivie & TV
personalities who served in the armed forces during the war, I've
compiled yet another list drawn primarily from the 1968 edition of WHO'S
ON TELEVISION.  While only a few of the individuals listed below had any
sort of acting experience prior to their military service, their
contributions seem worthy enough to note.

Philip Abbott (THE F.B.I.)  served as a pilot in the Army Air Force

Eddie Albert (GREEN ACRES) served in the US Navy

James Arness (GUNSMOKE) listed as a veteran of WW2

John Banner (Sgt Schultz, HOGAN'S HEROES) served in the Army Air Force

Bob Barker (TRUTH OR CONSEQUENCES) was a pilot in the the US Navy

Carl Betz (JUDD FOR THE DEFENSE) served in the Army

Joey Bishop (comedian, variety show host) served in the Army (wartime?)

Robert Bray (1968 edition of the LASSIE TV series) US Marines

Ed Bruce (THE GUIDING LIGHT) a veteran of WW2

Joseph Campanella (MANNIX) US Navy; "youngest skipper of a landing craft"

Macdonald Carey (DAYS OF OUR LIVES) was a lieutenant in the US Marines

Art Carney (THE HONEYMOONERS, etc) enlisted in the US Army; received a severe
                         leg wound while setting up a machinegun on his
                         first day of combat in France (July 1944) which
                         left him hospitalized for nine months; awarded
                         Purple Heart.

Johnny Carson (THE TONIGHT SHOW) served in the US Navy

Mike Connors (MANNIX) served in the Army Air Force

Billy DeWolfe (GOOD MORNING, WORLD) served in the US Navy

James Doohan (STAR TREK) is Canadian-- served as an observer with the Royal
                         Artillery; wounded at D-Day, later service as an
                         air observer.

Howard Duff (FELONY SQUAD) served in the US Army

Louis Edmonds (Roger Collins on DARK SHADOWS) served in the US Navy

Leif Erickson (HIGH CHAPPARAL) served as a photographer in the US Navy; twice
                               shot down while serving in the Pacific.

Gale Gordon (THE LUCY SHOW) in US Coast Guard, he commanded a landing craft
                            and saw combat.

Peter Graves (FURY, MISSION:IMPOSSIBLE) in US Army Air Force 1944-1945

David Hedison (VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA) enlisted in the US Navy
                                  in 1945 at the age of 17

Percy Herbert (CIMARRON STRIP & others) reported spending four years as a
                                  POW of the Japanese; branch served??

Same Jaffe  (ABC News)  at the age of 15, served in the US Merchant Marine
                        and operated in the Southeast Asia theatre

Brian Keith (FAMILY AFFAIR, HARDCASTLE & McCORMICK, others) served in the
                                 US Marines as a machinegunner

Werner Klemperer (HOGAN'S HEROES) US Army Special Services; served as
                                 a military policeman

Nancy Kulp (Miss Hathaway,  BEVERLY HILLBILLIES) US Navy as a WAVE; also
                                 served in Naval Reserve

Ed MacMahon (TONIGHT SHOW, STAR SEARCH etc) was a pilot in the US Marines

Cameron Mitchell (HIGH CHAPPARAL) Army Air Force as a bombardier

Alvy Moore (Hank Kimball, GREEN ACRES) served in the US Marines; saw action
                                   at Iwo Jima

Ed Platt (The Chief, GET SMART)  Army Air Force-- a sgt/radio operator

Arthur O'Connell (SECOND HUNDRED YEARS)  served in the US Army

Stafford Repp (Chief O'Hara, BATMAN) served in the Army Air Force

Red Skelton (RED SKELTON SHOW, etc) after entertaining servicemen 7 days a
                                  week stateside, enlisted in the US Army
                                  as a private, 3/44; assigned Field Arty.
                                  Reassigned to entertaining on troopships
                                  Italian front; 6 months convalescant leave
                                  following nervous collapse; honorable
                                  discharge Sep't 1945.

Frank Sutton (Sgt Carter, GOMER PYLE) US Army, as a sgt.

Jack Warden (WACKIEST SHIP IN THE ARMY & others) US Navy 1938-1941; Maritime
                                  Service 1941-1942; US Army, paratrooper,
                                  1941 [sic?] - 1946.

David White (Larry Tate, BEWITCHED) served in US Marines

Efrem Zimbalist Jr  (THE FBI)  a veteran of WW2, received Purple Heart;
                               branch of service not reported.

Hope this of use.........

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:19:40 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Terry:

>     Canada's was Pattle who shot down 41 aircraft and was the leading
> scorer for the Commonwealth.

Do you remember which plane was he flying? I would like also to know the
versions of Johnson's Spitfire and Nishizawa's A6M.

It will be also interesting to hear about aces of France, Italy, Australia,
Poland, etc.

Thanks in advance,

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:25:37 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

I just finished reading a book called something like _Death Squadron_.  It
was written by the PR officer right after the war.  It talks a lot about
Blakeslee, Zempke, Gentile, Godfrey, Beeson, and other high scoring aces.
Interesting read, though jarring (50 years later) to see the Germans
universally referred to as Huns.

I have a somewhat related question.  Is there an easy way to find out how
many of the German jet fighters were shot down by other planes, who the
pilots were that shot them down, and their units?  Thanks in advance for
any help.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 10:23:52 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF:Yamamoto

Diden't Genda get a high poistion in the post-wwii Japanese Self-Defense
Force (perhaps head of Navy?!?)-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | Faber est suae quisque fortunae-
Grad Student            |
Department of History   | Each man is the smith of his own fortune-
University of Arkansas  |
[email-masked]   | -Appius Claudius Caecus

On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Jim!
>
> If I may, I would tend to disagree with that assessment. As was
> pointed out, Yammamoto was a well-known and "respected" adversary.  I
> really doubt that he would have been tried for war crimes, certainly
> not on the scale as Keitel or Jodl, but I don't see him being hanged
> for his attack on PH. He may have been tried and may have spent some
> time behind bars, but I don't see him being hanged.
>
> Commander Genda was the officer who planned the operation. Would you
> hang him or put him on trial? He survived the war and wasn't tried.
> Fuchida who led the attack survived the war and went on to become a
> minister. Would you have tried him?
>
>
>  My two cents'
> worth anyway.
>
> Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:29:48 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: B-17 Flying Fortress computer game

Guys on the net ;

I thought of buying the computer game, B-17 Flying Fortress, for some kids
I know.  Christmas you know.

Which game?  There seemed to be 2-3 different ones in the ordering catalog.

I want the one with the REALLY nice graphics, but you need a computer with
enough memory space.  Also, I am told you can choose which position on the
plane you wish to command.

Also, how good is "Ace over Europe"?  Specs. on this one?

A bit behind on all this, but willing to learn ;

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
LSU
Baton Rouge, LA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:53:51 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW 2 Reproductions needed!

Guys on the net ;

I am asked each year to serve either in Air shows or Veteran's Day things ...
and I do so in authentic and reproduced WW2 USAAF (8th AAF, specifically) gear.
However, I want to add 'fruit salad' and name tag and brass US tags to my
soon-to-come-in (hopefully) khaki military dress shirt.  I already have an
authentic WW2 ish khaki tie.  Helps.

WHERE ... can I get either repros. or authentic fruit salad, brass US lapel
pins, shirt-located metalic rank ensignias ... and even a formal dress wool
OD uniform with the brown waist belt?

Any help?

Jesse Carnes
LSU
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:30:17 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Britain  Johnny Johnson  38  Spitfire (various)
        USSR    Ivan Kozhedub    62  La-5, La-7
        Italy   Adriano Visconti 26  MC202, MC205, Me-109G
        Japan   Hiroyoshi Nishizawa  103  Zero
        Canada  George Buerling  31.5  Spitfire
        Australia  Clive Caldwell 28.5   Spitfire
        New Zealand  Colin Grey  27    Spitfire
        Finland Haase "Hans" Wind  78  Me-109G
        Rumania  Constantino Cantacuzzino  60  ? (probably Me-109G)
        Hungary  Deszo Szentgyorgy  30  ??        ("")
        Norway  Sven Heglund    15.33  Spitfire
        France  Pierre Clostermann  33  Spitfire

These are off the top of my head...one source is Raymond Tolliver's
"Fighter Aces" (not much info on other than US, some German and Japanese,
but lists for virtually all countries).  I also saw a list in a WW2 atlas,
I think it was Rand-McNally, and there's a book out called "Messerschmidt
Aces" (again, I don't recall the author) that gives some short bios on some
of the other Axis pilots flying Me-109's.  Saburo Sakai's "Samurai" is the
obvious source of the info on Japanese Navy aces presented in Tolliver
(I've had a harder time locating info on Japanese Army pilots-- I believe
Anaki was the top one, flew Ki-43 as late as fall '44, but I've seen various
scores posted, up to 73 victories)...the Squadron/Signal two-volume set on
the Regia Aeronautica gives the best info I've been able to get on the Italians
(who discouraged individual score-keeping), and there is an English translation
of the official history of the Soviet air force which gives some short bio
on Kozhedub and other Russian aces.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

PS There were also lists of the top three Polish, South African, and
Belgian pilots in Tolliver but I can't recall offhand (I think the top
Polish guy was named Skalski and shot down 22 or thereabouts)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:32:11 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

BTW, everything I've seen gives Hartmann 352 "kills."  Also, he flew
Me-109K late in the war and qualified (but did not fly in combat) on Me-262.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:50:16 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Pattle was South African by birth, not Canadian.  I would include
him and "Sailor" Malan as British because both were pre-war career RAF
officers.  The top SAAF ace was a guy named Osler, I think, and if I recall
correctly his total was 16.
        I'm sure I'll be corrected on this if I'm wrong.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:58:22 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

>
> It will be also interesting to hear about aces of France, Italy, Australia,
> Poland, etc.
>
> Jorge Merino

I understand that the top Italian Ace was shot down in North Africa by
his own AAA while attempting to land at his own base.  Must have been
too tempting a target (low and slow) :-/

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:58:13 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Terry, how extensive is your information on Italian, Finnish,
and/or Rumanian aces??  For example, in the Squadron/Signal books on the
Regia Aeronautica reference is made to Lt-Col Duilio Fanali, credited with
15 victories (which would have put him in the Italian top ten) and also
described as a top fighter commander, but I have no info other than that on
this gentleman.  Also, Sgt-Major Teresio Martinoli is supposed to be the top
Italian ace prior to the Italian surrender (Visconti got seven of his 26 flying
for the RSI) with 22 victories??  Anyone know which unit he flew for, what
type of aircraft (probably MC202 but I've never seen it actually spelled out),
any anecdotes?? Also, Martinoli was killed in a flying accident in June '44,
but who was he flying for??  The RSI's ANR, Co-Belligerent AF, just for the
hell of it??  If you or anyone else on the list can help I'd be appreciative.
Also, Kozhedub was credited officially with 62 by the Soviets.  Aleksandr
Pokhryshin, who started in a Mig-3 but moved up to the P-39 in '43-'44, is
usually credited with 59 victories.  (Khozhedub is also the only Soviet pilot
I've heard of to shoot down a Me-262, over East Germany in Feb '45).

Regards and thanks for any assistance

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:06:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Official Secrets Act (1911)

Hello, Anwar!

To the best of my knowledge, the Official Secrets Act in Britain
suppressed any or all top secret information for 75 years after the
date it was so declared.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:09:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Jorge!

Will do my best to post to you the info you request on the aces.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:14:45 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO

        It might be added that Yamamoto himself advised that he could
raise hell for the first six months but after that there were no guarantees, or
words to that effect.  His strategy of attempting a knock-out pre-emptive
strike at PH to buy time for Japan to occupy a defensive perimeter around their
"Southern Resource Area" and develope those resources for their own defense
purposes (much as they had done with amazing speed in Manchuria in the '30's)
seems to have been one of the best bets the Japanese had once the decision to
go to war had been taken.  I also agree it was the Army's attempts to expand
beyond that perimeter which led to problems-- specifically the attrition
campaign around Guadalcanal (not a Navy project-- they were brought in later
with a specific request to help the Army) and the New Guniea offensive which
led to the Coral Sea battle.   Some of Yamamoto's decisions regarding Midway
are hard to defend adequately, but at PH it was Nagumo who had tactical control
(and hence the call on whether to hit the oil tanks-- BTW, if the carriers had
been at Pearl our situation would probably have been far worse, I can't see
them inflicting greater losses on the attackers than they probably would have
themselves received-- it still would have been a surprise attack).  Reading
some of the posts on this topic I gather the authors considered it a great US
mistake to knock Yamamoto off-- think how much sooner we could have won the war
with an incompetent of his stature still in charge.
        Having said that, I do agree that the Japanese lacked something in
their prosecution, but I don't think it was aggressiveness in planning.  More
like an inability to improvise at the command level...  Consider that in almost
every one of their initial assaults, where the campaigns had been thoroughly
planned and in many cases rehearsed, they met with tremendous tactical success
(Pearl and Malaya the two best, but far from only, examples), whereas when
forced to fight a campaign that took them by surprise, on ground not previously
studied, their performance was often horrible (e.g., the "bamboo spear"
tactics, as their own staff later termed them, on Guadalcanal-- virtually every
major fight in that battle, the Ilu/Tenaru, "Bloody Ridge" I and II, came down
to Japanese forces that barely outnumbered their adversaries launching
ridiculous frontal assaults, without any real artillery preparation, against
Marines dug in and wired in either behind a river or on top of a bare ridge).

Just my .02

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:16:19 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO

Hello, Mike!

I think you touch on something here that is very interesting.

> an invasion force to take the island......for a warrior people
> it seems Japan's planners were afflicted with a lack of audacity.

    I had read once, I can't remember where, but there seemed to be a
real blind side to the Japanese planners and senior officers,
particularly. It seemed that they considered their attitude toward
war and battle to far superior to any foe, and thus, their planning
and their actions seemed to reflect the idea that whatever they (the
Japanese) did would be basically infallible and that their enemies
would be incapable of countering any blow or plan that they envisaged
or planned. I may be overstating this, but your post really touches
on this issue of Japanese attitudes toward war and battle.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:20:36 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Jorge: Pattle flew the Gloster Gladiator until Feb 7, 1941, when
he switched to a Hurricane.  He was shot down by German aircraft over Athens
in April (I think it was 4/19).
        Nishizawa flew the A6M2 and, over the Phillipines in '44, the A6M5.
He was shot down while ferrying pilots at the controls of an unarmed, captured
DC3 in November '44 en route to Manila (jumped by Hellcats).
        I don't know what models Johnson flew except I believe he started
off his operational career in a Mark II and later flew the Mark V.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:23:34 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: African-Americans in the Marine Corps

I know that the US Army in WW II was segregated, with blacks usually
serving in all-black units.  Did the Marine Corps have any such units during
the war?  I believe the Navy usually assigned blacks only to galley work
or as longshoremen.

I'm not trying to start a discussion of the morality, etc., but I saw the
beginning of a movie the other night about a plane load of Marine replacements
shot down on an island with some isolated Japanese soldiers.  I really
wasn't paying any attention, but then I thought one of the marines was
black and I started thinking about it.

Thanks in advance.

Tim J. Watts
Public Services Librarian

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:30:07 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

Hello, William!

Will try to respond quickly to some of your points.

>       Some people are criticizing my stand that much of America advocated
> a Pacific first strategy.

    That may be true, but it was from an emotional point of view. The
powers-that-were in Washington held different views, of course, and
based upon their analysis, decided upon concentrating upon Germany.
I know you know that.

I will not say that this is definitely the case.
> However, if it was the case that Americans as a public viewed the Pacific as
> more important (however wrongly) why is the case that we waited so long to
> support the British?

    I don't know that we waited that long to support the British. We
certainly had stretched our own "neutrality" with them in 1939-1940,
and don't forget the "Lend-Lease" Pact of 1940. If it seemed that we
couldn't come to their aid immediately after PH, it was because we
were still gearing up for war, and our economy here didn't really get
going until 1942. Thus, there was a time lag.

 Why wouldn't we have entered the war earlier?

    There was no legitimate reason to do so. I think country required
an incident similar to PH to galvanize the country and unite it. I
think had the US entered any earlier without any valid reason,
support would have developed in time to what we
experienced during the Viet-Nam war.

         How was
> it that the isolationists were so strong in Congress if the American public
> did not view the war in Europe as something "European"?

    There was a very strong feeling that this country should stay out
of the war, and names such as Lindberg and Father Laughlin of the
America First Committe, had much influence during those days, and I
think that the majority of the American people did view the war in
Europe as being European and really didn't want to get involved.

>       The Germans, it must be remembered, never did anything particularly bad
> to the Americans, except be themselves.

    That depends. Consider the sinking of the "Greer" and the "Reuben
James" by Erich Topp. Feeling ran pretty high against the Germans
after those occurred.

And even though they continued to
> sink our shipping, America remained "neutral".

    True, but these ships were military and not civilian, although
our merchant ships were also attacked. The attitudes that existed in
1940-1941 toward the combattant powers were not the same as existed
in 1915-1917, when the press played these up more than was the case
in 1940. Also, consider the fact that this country had not geared up
for war, and didn't really do so until after PH.

 However, when the Japanese

> bombed Pearl Harbor, America took it very personally and, as an emotional
> reaction, wanted revenge and a Pacific first strategy.

    Perhaps so, but it was understandably from an emotional point of
view and Washington quite rightly viewed Hitler as the worse of the
threats.

    Thanks for allowing my two cents' worth on this. I would
appreciate your thoughts.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:35:57 EST
From:    Alex M Spencer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Official Secrets Act (1911)

     The Official Secrets Act of 1911 grew out of case of espionage in
 Plymouth conducted by Dr. Max Schultz.  The Official Secrets Act of 1889 was
 deemed inadequate by the Committee of Imperial Defence and the espionage
 sub-committee to properly try Dr. Schultz.
     The Official Secrets Act of 1911 made it illegal to obtain or communicate
 information deemed useful to an enemy.  The act also made it illegal to enter
 or approach a "prohibited place" for the purposes "prejudicial to the safety
 or interests of the State."  If caught in such a situation, it was the
 responsibility of the individual to prove that their actions were innocently
 intended.
      I think that the 30 Year Rule is more applicable to the raid on Dieppe.
 This rule basically states that official government records are not to be
 released to the public for 30 years.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:59:32 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW 2 Reproductions needed!

>
> WHERE ... can I get either repros. or authentic fruit salad, brass US lapel
> pins, shirt-located metalic rank ensignias ... and even a formal dress wool
> OD uniform with the brown waist belt?

> Jesse Carnes
> LSU
> [email-masked]
>

Aside from the odd surplus store, I know of one location which keeps
a huge collection of historic military items - it provides uniforms
and equipment for many movies filming on the east cost.  Items can
be rented or bought, including uniforms, medals, flags, repo weapons,
documents, etc. of all nations and time frames.  The store is
_National Capital Historical Sales_ in Springfield, VA (outside
of Washington D.C.).  Phone number is 703-569-6663.

I'd try some local surplus stores first or even gun shows.  Many
gun shows admit militia dealers.  There are also a large number of
mail order surplus stores out there but I don't have any addresses handy.

Hope this helps.

patrick

--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%  Patrick D. Marsden, Astronautical Engineer %  "For those who like this   %
%  Computational Physics, Inc.                %  sort of thing, this is the %
%  Fairfax, Virginia                          %  sort of thing they like."  %
%  (703) 204-1301,  [email-masked]     %         - Abraham Lincoln   %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:52:33 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW 2 Reproductions needed!

Call me about 8pm tonight and I think I can push you in the right
direction.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 19:03:01 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: BATTLE OF THE HUERTGEN FOREST

Barone <[email-masked]> writes:

>         On the morning of November 2, 1944, a real-war game was quite
> accidently played when the staff of the German Fifth Panzer Army met
> to plan possible new moves in the battle shaping up at the western edge
> of the Hurtgen Forest using wargaming techniques.
> ............
> return to his command post."  The moves of the game, reflected in the
> moves on the battlefield, sealed off the American penetration.

Does anyone have any record as to what the rules of professional German
wargames may have been like ? Were any ever printed by the German
General Staff ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:50:48 -0500
From:    GREGORY EDWARD SENNEMA <[email-masked]>
Subject: Netherlands query

    Does anybody know what occurred on the islands off the Dutch
coast (i.e., Texel, Terschelling, etc.) during the war?  Were they
heavily occupied, and/or were they used by the Resistance?  Also,
is there any literature which I could be referred to regarding my
query?  I would appreciate any bit of information.

Gregory Sennema
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:24:15 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aces

     For those without access to FTP, I thought I'd provide the
     "FIGHTER.PIL" file referred to earlier.

     Steve New

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: [email-masked] (Al Bowers)
Subject: Re: Best fighterpilot ?!?!
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:20:48 GMT
Lines: 376

[email-masked] (Stefan Kronkvist INF) writes:

I think you have misconstrued some facts, and I also have my own
nomination for greatest fighter pilot of all time...

>                     ===============================
>                      Most successful fighter pilot
>                           of all times ?!?!
>                     ===============================

Who is the most successful fighterpilot in the history? The answer may be
different depending on who you are asking.

The germans on the other hand also counted planes destroyed on the
ground. And when a german pilot shot down a 4-engine plane,he was
allowed to count one "victory"/engine.

...................................................................

This was untrue in WWII (the Luftwaffe).  Confirmation was required to
be provided by a witness seeing the aircraft _crash_.  No confirmation
resulted in a probable (despite the aircraft being on fire, spiralling
down out of control a wing coming off, whatever).  Probables were not
counted in total tallies.  For more info, read "Top Secret Bird" by
Wolfgang Spaate.  Spaate finished the war with 99 official victories,
though his unofficial tally was about 122, and another dozen or so
probables.  This is not to say there were no abuses, as Spaate points
out in his book.

>Wind is less known than Jonny Johnson (38 planes),Richard Bong (40) and
>Pierre Clostermann (33).

See the list below.

>Manfred von Richthofen shot down 80 enemy-planes,according to the Guiness
book of Records,but 20 of these are unconfirmed...

Not quite.  Richtofen had 80 _confirmed_ kills, with 20 probables.

My personal nomination goes probably to Erich `Bubi' Hartmann (352
kills, WWII Luftwaffe), or possibly to Saburo Sakai (never lost a
wingman in 64 kills, and the Japanese used `vics', a three plane
element).

This is a little list that I have been compiling for a year or two
now.  I'm sure it is not complete, but is presented here for info.
If you know of someone who _should_ be on this list, please e-mail me
(with a reference if you have it).  Note that I only include people
who qualify for the title "ace" as used by the US (5 confirmed aerial
victories, ground kills not counted).

And I expect some of the numbers to generate some controversy
(especially the WWII Luftwaffe numbers), but the numbers are accurate
so far as I can tell (references available).

Also, there are numerous Israeli aces, but their country considers that
info classified (with some justification), and I am also aware that
some Pakistani pilots are aces as well (Afghanistan war), but I cannot
find the info.  One last piece of information, no one became an ace
involved with the Falklands Islands war or the Gulf war that I am
aware of (I have a complete list of _all_ aerial kills in the Vietnam
war by the US and _all_ victories on both sides in the Gulf war).

Note that the greatest jet ace is a tie between James McConnell
(Korea, F-86) and Heinrich Bar (WWII, Me 262) each with 16.  Honorable
mention to James Jabara (Korea, F-86) with 15 _jet_ kills and possibly
to Col. Toon of Vietnam (with 17?).  And note that there are two women
on the list, Lily Litvak, and Katya Budanova (USSR, WWI).

name               victories           war                 country
===========================================================================
Manfred von Richtofen   80             WWI                 Germany
Ernst Udet              62             WWI                 Germany
Josef Jacobs            48             WWI                 Germany
Werner Voss             48             WWI                 Germany
Oswald Boelcke          40             WWI                 Germany
Lothar von Richtofen    40             WWI                 Germany
Carl Degelow            30             WWI                 Germany
Herman Goering          22             WWI                 Germany
Hans Pippart            22             WWI                 Germany
Max Immelmann           15             WWI                 Germany
Paul Strahle            13             WWI                 Germany
Gustav Leffer            9             WWI                 Germany
Wolfram von Richtofen    8             WWI                 Germany

Rene Fonck              75             WWI                 France
Georges Guynmeyer       58             WWI                 France
Charles Nungesser       45             WWI                 France
Georges Madon           41             WWI                 France
Maurice Boyeau          35             WWI                 France
Roland Garros            5             WWI                 France

Philip F. Fullard       53             WWI                 Great Britain
Albert Ball             47             WWI                 Great Britain
Ira Jones               40             WWI                 Great Britain
Henry Woollett          36             WWI                 Great Britain
Rhys-David              23             WWI                 Great Britain
Gerald Maxwell          21             WWI                 Great Britain
Lanoe Hawker             9             WWI                 Great Britain
J. R. Trollope           6             WWI                 Great Britain
Sholto Douglas           6             WWI                 Great Britain

William Bishop          72             WWI                 Canada
Raymond Collishaw       62             WWI                 Canada
Donald McLaren          54             WWI                 Canada
William Barker          52             WWI                 Canada
Roy Brown               13             WWI                 Canada

Edward Mannock          73             WWI                 Ireland
James McCudden          57             WWI                 Ireland

A. Beauchamp-Proctor    54             WWI                 South Africa

Willy Coppens           34             WWI                 Belgium

Edward Rickenbacker     26             WWI                 United States
Fredrick Libby          24             WWI                 United States
Frank Luke              21             WWI                 United States
Raoul Lufbery           17             WWI                 United States

Francesco Barraca       36             WWI                 Italy

Alexander Kazakov       17             WWI                 Russia
Alexander de Seversky   13             WWI                 Russia

===========================================================================
Erich Hartmann         352             WWII                Germany
Gerhard Barkorn        301             WWII                Germany
Guenther Rall          275             WWII                Germany
Otto Kittel            267             WWII                Germany
Walter Nowotny         258             WWII                Germany
Wilhelm Batz           237             WWII                Germany
Erich Rudorffer        222             WWII                Germany
Heinrich Bar           220             WWII                Germany
Herrmann Graf          211             WWII                Germany
Theodore Weissenburger 208             WWII                Germany
Hans Philip            206             WWII                Germany
Walter Schuck          206             WWII                Germany
Anton Hafner           204             WWII                Germany
Heinrich Ehler         204             WWII                Germany
Helmut Lipfert         203             WWII                Germany
Walter Kuprinski       197             WWII                Germany
Anton Hackl            190             WWII                Germany
Max Stotz              189             WWII                Germany
Joachim Brendel        189             WWII                Germany
Joachim Kirschner      188             WWII                Germany
Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle 180        WWII                Germany
Gunther Josten         178             WWII                Germany
Johannes Steinhoff     176             WWII                Germany
Ernst Wilhelm Reinert  174             WWII                Germany
Gunther Schack         174             WWII                Germany
Heinz Schmidt          173             WWII                Germany
Emil Lang              173             WWII                Germany
Horst Adameit          166             WWII                Germany
Wolf-Dietrich Wilke    162             WWII                Germany
Han-Joachim Marseille  158             WWII                Germany
Heinrich Sturm         158             WWII                Germany
Gerhard Tyben          157             WWII                Germany
Hans Beiswenger        152             WWII                Germany
Peter Duttmann         152             WWII                Germany
Gordon Gollob          150             WWII                Germany
Dietrich Hrabak        125             WWII                Germany
Heinz Schnaufer        121             WWII                Germany
Werner Moelders        115             WWII                Germany
Adolf Galland          104             WWII                Germany
Hartmann Grasser       103             WWII                Germany
Werner Streib           60             WWII                Germany

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa    113             WWII                Japan
Ota                     80?            WWII                Japan
Saburo Sakai            64             WWII                Japan
Sasai                   60?            WWII                Japan
Akamatsu                50?            WWII                Japan

Hasse Wind              75             WWII                Finland

Ivan Kozuhedub          62             WWII                USSR
Aleksandr Pokryshkin    59             WWII                USSR
Alelyukin               40             WWII                USSR
Vladmir Lavrinenkov     35             WWII                USSR
Aleksandr Klubov        31             WWII                USSR
Boris F. Safnov         22             WWII                USSR
Stepan Suprun           15             WWII                USSR
Lily Litvak              7             WWII                USSR
Katya Budanova           6             WWII                USSR

Joaquin Garcia Morato   40             WWII                Spain(Na)
Julio Salvador          24             WWII                Spain(Fr)
Andres Garcia La Calle  21             WWII                Spain(Na)
Angel Salas             17             WWII                Spain(Na)
Manuel Aguirre Lopez    16             WWII                Spain(Fr)

Richard Bong            40             WWII                United States
Thomas McGuire          38             WWII                United States
Eugene Valencia         35             WWII                United States
Francis Gabreski        34.5           WWII                United States
David McCampbell        34             WWII                United States
Gregory Boyington       28             WWII                United States
George Preddy           26.9           WWII                United States
Joe Foss                26             WWII                United States
Cecil E. Harris         24             WWII                United States
Gerald Johnson          22             WWII                United States
Ken Walsh               21             WWII                United States
Thomas Lynch            20             WWII                United States
Don Gentile             19.8(27)       WWII                United States
John Smith              19             WWII                United States
Marion Carl             16             WWII                United States
William Dunham          16             WWII                United States
Don Blakeslee           15             WWII                United States
Robin Galer             13             WWII                United States
Robin Olds              13             WWII                United States
James French            11             WWII                United States
Harrison Thyng          11             WWII                United States
Robert Scott            10             WWII                United States
Clinton Smith           10             WWII                United States
Albert G. Baumer         8             WWII                United States
Frank G. Tinker          8             WWII                United States
Harris Mitchell          6             WWII                United States
John Mitchell            6             WWII                United States
Harold Dahl              5             WWII                United States
Charles King             5             WWII                United States
Tom Lanphier             5             WWII                United States
Oscar Perdomo            5             WWII                United States
Robert Johnson

James "Johnnie" Johnson 38             WWII                Great Britain
Marmaduke Pattle        34             WWII                Great Britain
Robert Stanford Tuck    30             WWII                Great Britain
Robert Braham           29             WWII                Great Britain
Alan Deere              22.5           WWII                Great Britain
Douglas Bader           22             WWII                Great Britain
John Godfrey            16.3(18)       WWII                Great Britain
Reade Tilley             7             WWII                Great Britain

Clyde Caldwell          28.5           WWII                Australia
"Bluie" Truscott

Stanislaus Skalski      19             WWII                Poland

Adolf Gysbert Malan     18             WWII                South Africa

Le Nigen                12             WWII                France(Vi)
Abel Guides             10             WWII                France(Fr)

===========================================================================
Joseph Campbell         16             Korea               United States
James Jabara            15(16.5)       Korea               United States
Fredrick Blesse         10             Korea               United States
Robin Olds               4(16)         Korea               United States

===========================================================================
Charles DeBellvue        6*            Vietnam             United States
Randy Cunningham         5             Vietnam             United States
William Driscoll         5*            Vietnam             United States
Richard Ritchie          5             Vietnam             United States
Jeffery Feinstein        5*            Vietnam             United States
Robin Olds               4(20)         Vietnam             United States

Toon (Tomb?)            17             Vietnam             Vietnam

American Aces

WWI
==============

Paul F. Baer            9
Hilbert L. Blair        5
Frank L. Baylies       12
James D. Beane          6
Louis B. Bennett       12
Charles L. Biddle       7
Clayton L. Bissell      5
Arthur R. Brooks        6
Harold R. Buckley       5
Howard R. Burdick       7
Lawrence K. Calahan     5
Douglas Campbell        6
Thomas G. Cassady       9
Reed M. Chambers        7
Henry R. Clay           8
James A. Connelly       8
Everett R. Cook         5
H. Weir Cook            7
Hamilton Coolidge       8
Jesse O. Creech         8
Edward P. Curtis        6
Charles R. D'Olive      5
John Owen Donaldson     8
William P. Erwin        8
Geroge W. Furlow        5
Harold H. George        5
Frederick W. Gillette  20
Charles G. Gray         5
John S. Griffith        9
Murray K. Guthrie       6
Edward M. Haight        5
Frank L. Hale          18
James Norman Hall       6
Lloyd A. Hamilton       9
Harold Evans Hartney    6
Frank K. Hayes          6
James A. Healy          5
Lansing C. Holden       7
Donald Hudson           6
John W. F. M. Huffer    7
Frank O. D. Hunter      8
Paul T. Iaccaci        18
Thayer A. Iaccaci      11
David Sinton Ingalls    5
Clinton Jones           8
James A. Keating        6
Field E. Kindley       12
Howard C. Knotts        6
James Knowles           5
Harold A. Kullberg     16
Dean I. Lamb            5
William C. Lambert     22
Reed G. Landis         10
G. DeFreest Larner      8
Fredrick Libbey        14
Robert O. Lindsey       6
Raoul G. Lufbery       17
Fredrick E. Luff        5
Frank Luke             18
Francis P. Magoun       5
John J. Malone         20
Alexandre Matthews      5
John K. McArthur        6
David M. McClure        6
James A. Meissner       8
Ewart S. Miller         5
Zenes R. Miller         5
Ralph A. O'Neill        5
J. Sidney Owens         5
W. J. Pace              5
Edwin C. Parsons        8
David M. Peterson       5
William T. Ponder       6
Kenneth L. Porter       6
Norman Prince           5
David E. Putnam        12
Orville A. Ralston      5
Edward V. Rickenbacker 26
E. M. Roberts           7
Frank A. Robertson      6
Wendel A. Robertson     7
Bogart Rogers           5
Oren J. Rose           16
S. C. Rosevear         23
Leslie J. Rummel        7
Karl J. Schoen          7
John J. Seerley         5
Sumner Sewall           7
Elliot White Springs   12
Martinus Stenseth       6
Victor H. Strahm        5
Jacques M. Swaab       10
William Thaw            5
William D. Tipton       5
Edgar G. Tobin          6
Robert M. Todd          5
Jerry C. Vasconcells    6
George A. Vaughn       13
Charles H. Veil         5
Remington D. B. Vernam  6
C. T. Warman           15
Joseph F. Wehner        5
F. Westing              5
Wilbur W. White         8
Alan M. Wilkinson      19
Rodney D. Williams      5
Chester E. Wright       9
--
Al Bowers                       [email-masked]
NASA F-18 High Alpha Research Vehicle, Lead Aero
NASA, Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, California

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:22:26 -0600
From:    CHIP MERTON <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

The wiretap.spies.com ftp site with the fighter pilot information is also
available through gopher as "gopher wiretap.spies" if you are unable to
access via ftp. Wiretap also has a large collection of WWII documents.
*include sig.txt

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:24:38 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW 2 Reproductions needed!

Jesse, I can't help you directly since our library's copy of this work is
still backordered (sigh) but you may wish to track down a copy of

WINDROW & GREENE'S MILITARIA DIRECTORY & SOURCEBOOK  (1994 edition)

catalog annotation says it "provides names & addresses of book
publishers, historical societies, magazines, dealers, modeling clubs,
equipment & services, insignia, armour & militaria clubs, re-enactment
groups & services, and more"  Probably lists dealers in insignia repros.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:38:20 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: test

        Joe, am I still subscribed??  Haven't received anything off the list
since I replied to a bunch of posts earlier today (including my own messages
to the list which I posted a good four hours ago)

        Thanks

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:03:18 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: retrieval

        Joe, assuming I have been somehow mysteriously unsubscribed (my disk
usage is at 835 out of a quota of 2000 with 100 overdraft, and I haven't been
over 1,000 all week, so I don't think bouncing messages should have been a
problem, and I don't remember saying anything politically inflammatory--
anyway, those of my political inclination are mostly spending our time sulking
since last Tuesday), if/when reconnected how can I retrieve what I've missed
during my unintended downtime??  I was pretty interested in the discussion on
fighter aces (as you can tell if my posts got through-- I have no way of
knowing) so I was hoping to monitor other peoples' comments on that subject.

        Thanks

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:07:26 -600
From:    Lowell Rick Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 Flying Fortress computer game

>Guys on the net ;
>
>I thought of buying the computer game, B-17 Flying Fortress, for some kids
>I know.  Christmas you know.
>
>Which game?  There seemed to be 2-3 different ones in the ordering catalog.
>
>I want the one with the REALLY nice graphics, but you need a computer with
>enough memory space.  Also, I am told you can choose which position on the
>plane you wish to command.
>
>Also, how good is "Ace over Europe"?  Specs. on this one?
>
>A bit behind on all this, but willing to learn ;
>
>
>
>Jesse Carnes
>[email-masked]
>LSU
>Baton Rouge, LA
>
Jesse,

I haven't played many of this type of game.  The one I do know is called
Secret Weapons Of The Luftwaffe (SWOTL for short).  With this game
you can fly the B17, act as gunner from any of the gunner stations, and
be the bombardier.  You can also fly P47, P51, and other US fighters, as
well as a wide range of German fighters.  Great graphics, sound, and
challenging missions.  The game even has a campaign option.  This is
a **** game in my opinion.  Hope the info. helps.

Toujours Pret!

Rick Cox     [email-masked]
Ameritech National Customer Service Center
Hoffman Estates, IL  USA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:20:48 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        I hadn't heard of the Italians losing a top ace to their own AA fire.
Visconti (26 "kills," 19 with RA and 7 with ANR) was shot by partisans in April
'45, Martinoli (22 kills, all RA) is listed as "flying accident" in June '44,
Lucchino and Ferulli (both 21 WW2 RA victories-- Lucchino was also an ace in
Spain, where Ferulli recorded one victory)) were both killed in combat
against Allied aircraft over Sicily in July '43, Bordoni-Bisleri (19 RA
victories) and Gorini (15 RA plus 4 ANR "kills") both survived the war, and
Visentini (17 RA) died in a crash caused by bad weather in East Africa in Feb
'41.  What ace are you referring to?? (could this be the answer to my questions
about Martinoli-- please see my other posts of earlier today, which were for
some reason rather delayed reaching the list).

        I'd be interested in hearing an elaboration.

        Thanks

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:22:56 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: test

        Joe, I've just started getting mail again (approx 5:45 EST).  Hope I
didn't hit the panic button too quick, it just seemed a longer delay than
usual.  (my posts from 12-1 today are just showing up now-- in fact, not all
have reached me yet).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 15:49:48 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF:Yamamoto

Hello, Terry!
I wouldn't have favored trying Yamamoto, Genda, or Fuchida.  I've
always admired Yamamoto as a person  and as a fighter.(And wouldn't
his memoirs have been fascinating!) But immediately after the war
we were in a vengeful mood,very justifiably.  Yamashita's military
prowess didn't save him,nor did the fluent English of the ex-attache
Masaharu Homma.  A lot of Americans thought that Yamamoto had boasted
he would dictate peace in the White House, totally misinterpreting
a remark he actually made.  That's  why I think that Rex Barber(or
Lanphier) did Yamamoto an inadvertent favor.  Interestingly,at the
time of his death Yamamoto is recorded as being  very depressed.
He foresaw inevitable defeat and on one occasion said he wished
to join his brave young fliers in death.  That wish came true.
Jim Curry

On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Jim!
>
> If I may, I would tend to disagree with that assessment. As was
> pointed out, Yammamoto was a well-known and "respected" adversary.  I
> really doubt that he would have been tried for war crimes, certainly
> not on the scale as Keitel or Jodl, but I don't see him being hanged
> for his attack on PH. He may have been tried and may have spent some
> time behind bars, but I don't see him being hanged.
>
> Commander Genda was the officer who planned the operation. Would you
> hang him or put him on trial? He survived the war and wasn't tried.
> Fuchida who led the attack survived the war and went on to become a
> minister. Would you have tried him?
>
>
>  My two cents'
> worth anyway.
>
> Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 15:12:14 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Jorge!
Mind if I jump in?  I thought Marmaduke St. John Pattle was a South African,
not a Canadian.  Most of his kills were scored flying a Gloster Gladiator
biplane fighter  against the Italians (who also used biplanes.)  Later
he flew a Hurricane,and was KIA in a battle with Me 109's over Athens
harbor in in 1941.

Jim Curr

On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> Terry:
>
> >     Canada's was Pattle who shot down 41 aircraft and was the leading
> > scorer for the Commonwealth.
>
> Do you remember which plane was he flying? I would like also to know the
> versions of Johnson's Spitfire and Nishizawa's A6M.
>
> It will be also interesting to hear about aces of France, Italy, Australia,
> Poland, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jorge Merino
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:00:48 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO

At 12:16 PM 11/18/94 +0000, Robert T. Moore wrote:
>Hello, Mike!
>
>I think you touch on something here that is very interesting.
>
>> an invasion force to take the island......for a warrior people
>> it seems Japan's planners were afflicted with a lack of audacity.
>
>    I had read once, I can't remember where, but there seemed to be a
>real blind side to the Japanese planners and senior officers,
>particularly. It seemed that they considered their attitude toward
>war and battle to far superior to any foe, and thus, their planning
>and their actions seemed to reflect the idea that whatever they (the
>Japanese) did would be basically infallible and that their enemies
>would be incapable of countering any blow or plan that they envisaged
>or planned. I may be overstating this, but your post really touches
>on this issue of Japanese attitudes toward war and battle.

It seems to me this was certainly true in the early days and some even
called it "victory disease"

For a long time I've wondered about Japanese actions during WWII. I've
thought perhaps the "sprirt of bushido" had something to do with it.  It's
always seemed to me that the US took a "practical" approach to the war,
while the Japanese took a "romantic" approach.  Many excellent officers
committed suicide when they "failed", rather that regrouping to fight again
another day.  For example, his name escapes me now, but the captain of the
last Japanese carrier sunk at Midway was regarded as one of the best brains
in the Japanese navy, but he chose to go down with his ship even though it
is difficult to see how he could have been blamed.

Japanese plans often seemed very elaberate, often depending on exact timing
with the US doing what was expected.  MIdway again seems the classic
example.  I'm reading the book _Destroyer Captain_ (I think that's the
name) by Hara, and he talks about the old saying "The Lion uses all his
might to kill a rabbit", but the Japanese ignored this, splitting up their
forces, where the US often used overpowering force.

Their use of submarines also seems not to have been very creative, nor did
they seem to have ever developed good anti-submarine  measures.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 18 Nov 1994 20:33:38 -0500
From:    Michael Andrew Turton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF YAMAMOTO

        I agree indecisiveness at the command level cost the
japanese during the war.  Even if all their battles had been perfectly
executed the most that could have been won was a stay of execution.
The problem was the insanity of an island nation going to war
against all but three (German, Italy and Russia) of the world's
major industrial powers.
        This leads to the real question: what level of victory
would have forced the U.S. to accept Japanese hegemony in the
Pacific?  An endless series of defeats?  The taking of Pearl?
An invasion of Los Angeles?  How could the Japanese have won
the war in the Pacific?

Mike Turton
[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 17 Nov 1994 to 18 Nov 1994
*************************************************