Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Nov 1994 to 28 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 00:01:12 -0500

There are 74 messages totalling 2498 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ACES: (6)
  2. "Fatherland" (14)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 11-28-94
  4. 22d in Hurtgen 28 Nov 44
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-NOV-1944
  6. Waffen-SS (4)
  7. Walter Model (3)
  8. INFO APPEAL
  9. Weap: Mustang range
 10. HIST: Waffen SS (5)
 11. SS,German Resistance and ... (2)
 12. Close Air Support in Normandy
 13. Close Air Support planes vs. tanks (6)
 14. Allies in Swiss Airspace
 15. Re[2]: Hungarian Armour in World War 2
 16. USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION (6)
 17. Weaps: Battleships
 18. Re[2]: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks
 19. 22d in the Hurtgen 27 Nov 44 (2)
 20. SS,German Resistance and concentration camps (3)
 21. Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 6
 22. Eighth Air Force
 23. HIST: Hair from KZ inmates
 24. What-if?-a double question
 25. PFC Garcia and 22d in the Hurtgen 27 Nov 44
 26. Hollywood in World War II (2)
 27. 22d in the Hurtgen 29 Nov 44
 28. Eighth
 29. [INF] USAAF 29 NOV 44
 30. Julia Child in the OSS
 31. <No subject given>
 32. "Comrades" speech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:58:52 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Terry,

>         I believe Hartmann went on to become the first commander of the
> German jet fighter squadron after he returned to Germany.  He died recently
> (6 months or so?).

        In fact, Erich Hartmann died near Stuttgart on the 21st of October,
1993, at the age of 71.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

     MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
     M                                                                   M
     M  Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!"      M
     M                                                                   M
     M  Yosemite Sam   : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M
     M                                                                   M
     MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 00:35:47 -0500
From:    Oliver Bonham-Carter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

As I did not see this film, did anyone get the idea that perhaps this
could happen according to its producers and directors?

[email-masked]
 "...So the bartender says "Hey, that's not a DUCK!"

On Sun, 27 Nov 1994, Ellen Shepard wrote:

> Last night on HBO there was an important original movie "Fatherland" starring
> Miranda Richardson and Rutger Hauer.  It answered the question:  What if
> Hitler had won?  Please try and see this important movie.  In this
> presentation the premise was the Hitler had won the war, all of Europe was
> called Germania, Joseph Kennedy was President of America, Hitler and Kennedy
> were allies, and the Holocast was kept a secret.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 04:00:14 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-28-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/28 Tue.  Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Submarine I-46, by destroyers SAUFLEY (DD-465),
              WALLER (DD-466), PRINGLE (DD-477), and RENSHAW
              (DD-499), Leyte Gulf, P. I.,
              10 d. 48'N., 124 d. 35'E.
            Submarine I-365, by submarine SCABBARDFISH (SS-397),
             off Honshu, Japan,
             34 d. 44'N., 141 d. 01'E.
            Submarine chaser NO. 53, by surface craft, Ormoc
             Bay, P. I.,
             10 d. 59'N., 124 d. 33'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:38:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Nov 27 Ellen Shepard writes:
 >
 >Last night on HBO there was an important original movie "Fatherland" starring
 >Miranda Richardson and Rutger Hauer.  It answered the question:  What if
 >Hitler had won?  Please try and see this important movie.  In this
 >presentation the premise was the Hitler had won the war, all of Europe was
 >called Germania, Joseph Kennedy was President of America, Hitler and Kennedy
 >were allies, and the Holocast was kept a secret.

Yes, I saw the film and was very disappointed.  The director had
the opportunity to make a first class "John LeCarre" film but it
was the usual dull, plodding HBO movie.

The film takes place in 1964.  The premise was that the D-Day
landing had failed, Eisenhower went home in shame, Churchill died in
shame in Canada and all of Europe was under Hitler's Germania.  (It
was interesting to see an advertisement for a Beatles concert.)
The Germans had been fighting the Soviet Union for 20 years and the
Soviets are now fighting a guerilla style war.

After the failure at Normandy, the US had turned it's attention to
the Pacific and had defeated Japan after dropping two A-bombs.  The
question was, "Why didn't the US build more A-bombs and drop them
on Germany?"  But I guess the film was made for people who do not
know history.

The US and Germania are now the two superpowers in the world and
detente is in effect.  Hitler wants a meeting with President
Joseph Kennedy, Sr. to ease world tensions and this is scheduled to
take place in Berlin.

That's the background of the film.  The movie was really about 2
people, an SS Major who is a cop (???) trying to solve a murder
and an American reporter.  To keep things balanced, the cop is a
male and the reporter is a female.  It turns out that Hitler (???)
is having all the big wigs involved in the Final Solution
liquidated to keep this a secret.  These two spend almost two hours
running around trying to obtain evidence that the  elimination of
the Jews really happened and in the end, get it to Kennedy who then
cancels his meeting with Hitler.  The cop, who served in U-boats
during the war so he doesn't know anything about what happened on
land, is a likable guy who gets caught in the middle of a power
play at the high levels.  At the end, he tries to get his son, who
is living with his divorced wife, to come with him to America but
the kid reports him to the Gestapo.  They arrive, there is a gun
battle, he gets away wounded, and dies in a phone booth after he
called his son and told him that he was not to blame.  After
getting the papers to Kennedy, the reporter goes to a bench in a
park where she and the cop were supposed to meet and we see her
sitting on the bench waiting for him in the rain.  SCHMALTZ!

Finally, there is the voiceover of the cop's son, as an adult,
stating that because of the cancellation of the meeting with Kennedy,
Hitler's regime soon fell and the world returned to peace and
sunshine.  And the Gestapo picked the reporter up at the park bench
and she is now history.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:46:09 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 22d in Hurtgen 28 Nov 44

22d In the Hurtgen Forest 28 November 1944

Colonel Chance informed Lanham on 27 November his 12th Infantry would take Hill
90 the twenty-eighth.  Major Kemp, commanding 3d Battalion 22d Infantry, had
the same idea.  He knew his battalion would eventually be required to take
either Grosshau or the woods east of the village.  In the words of  his
operations officer, Lieutenant George Bridgeman , "He didn't want the Krauts
looking right over his left shoulder."  Kemp was not aware the 12th was going
to take the hill, so, when he sent platoons from Item and King Companies to
secure the hill, they met A Company 12th Infantry on the crest.  When the
platoons attacked the hill, they found the resistance extremely light in
comparison to that previously encountered. There was some small arms fire, but
the regiment's periodic report states there was "not the accustomed artillery
and mortar fire."

In the 1st Battalion sector, preparations continued for the attack on Grosshau.
 The battalion was close enough to German lines that exchanges of American
wounded could take place.  Major Goforth told Lanham, "The Krauts in town have
orders to stay to the last man."  He listed the strength of his companies as:
"B Company about 38 enlisted and 3 officers, E Company the same, and Charlie
Company, 56."  Lanham then told Goforth that there were only twenty-five
riflemen in any of the companies not in contact.  Later in the day, three
soldiers from the Anti-Tank Company rescued five engineers who had walked up
the road into Grosshau while clearing mines.

The soldiers of the regiment had been in the forest for twelve days.  Their
miserable existence consisted of rain dripping through the trees, never-ending
mud, never getting dry, never getting warm, no hot food, not enough sleep, and
laying at night shivering, wrapped in raincoats in foxholes filled with cold
water. The soldiers were becoming enfeebled even without enemy action.
Trenchfoot, especially in the Second Battalion, was in the words of the
battalion commander "approaching serious proportions."  For days on end, the
constant artillery fire kept soldiers close to their water filled holes.

Casualties for 28 November were 117, light in comparison to other days.
The regiment received nine replacements.  Because of the shortage of riflemen,
Lanham asked his executive officer, Lieutenant Colonel John F. Ruggles Jr.
to check the companies for how many cooks, kps, and supply personel each had.
On the .
morning of the twenty-eighth, the division commander gave Lanham the authority
to "make officers on the spot" from outstanding non-commissioned officers
(NCOs).  The problem was that by this time there were very few NCOs left to
commission.

>From Paschendale with Treebursts

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 05:03:18 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-NOV-1944

On 29-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The XIII Corps (US 9th Army) is advancing towards the Rur.
There is no change in the VII Corps (1st Army) sector. The 104th Division
is engaged in the Inden-Lammersdorf sector and the 4th Division is engaged
in the Hurtgen forest. In the US 3rd Army sector, the 90th and 95th
Divisions begin a joint offensive against the Saar. Some patrols of the
90th reach the river, but the 95th Division encounters strong German
resistance in the hills in front of Saarlautern. In the US 7th Army sector,
the French 2nd Division captures Erstein.

Eastern Front - The 2nd and 3rd Ukraine Fronts supported by Yugoslav units
advance southwest of Budapest, north of the Drava, driving the Germans and
Hungarians out of Pecs. Mohacs is captured also. In Albania, the Germans
withdraw from Scutari.

Italian Front - The XIII Corps (US 5th Army) reaches Fontanelice.

Philippines (Leyte) - The Japanese attacks on Kilay Ridge continue, but the
Americans are able to repluse them and free the units cut off yesterday.

Pacific - Japanese kamikaze attacks continue in the Gulf of Leyte,
seriously damaging the battleship Maryland and two destroyers. The US
submarine Archerfish sinks the Japanese carrier Shinano south of Honshu.
The Shinano was originally designed as a sister ship of the giant
battleships Yamato and Musashi.

The Homefront
-------------
December Ration Points Unchanged - Washington has announced that the
November ration point values for canned goods and meats will be retained in
December.

Norden Honored - Carl L. Norden, inventor of the Norden bombsight and the
Norden automatic pilot, has received at a New York dinner of the American
Society of Mechanical Engineers the Holley Medal, given annually by the
society for "some great and unique act of genius of engineering nature that
has accomplished a great a timely public benefit."

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica and "Time" magazine.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:18:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Hello, Arnaud!

I agree with your statements about the French not being "pro-Nazi",
but the German occupying authorities had a different attitude toward
the French that was absent from the other countries they occupied.
The Germans did not rule France with as heavy a hand as they did, say
in Poland.

I might point out that there were 85,000 babies born to parents, the
fathers of which were German and the mothers were French, during the
5 years of Nazi occupation.

I just wanted to put your statements into perspective.

Thanks for your post.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:23:31 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Walter Model

Hello, Pulp-Fiction!

> Can anyone give me info on Fieldmarshall Walter Model.There is a biog on
> him in German, i need one in english, any ideas?

   If you need his military career in English, I have that. Please
advise. Or are you looking for commentary?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:34:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO APPEAL

Hello, Todd!

>     The first has to do with the wartime occupation of Czechoslovakia,
> and specifically the reactions of the Sudeten German minority to the
> invasion, as well as their activities (both of collaboration and
> resistance) from 1939-1945.  This will be a consideration in my Master's
> thesis that I'm working on here at McGill University in Montreal,
> Canada (and if anyone happens to also have info on the expulsion of said
> German minority in 1945-46, that would also be greatly appreciated).

    I can help you here, if you will let me know specifically your
needs.

>     Secondly, I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with works in English
> Dutch, French or German concerning resistance (not specifically, but
> naturally also including Jewish) in the concentration camps of the Nazi
> Reich 1935-1945.  The info I've found so far tends either to focus on
> specific camps or is mostly in Polish (which I sadly do not have a
> command of); what I'm after are general works dealing with forms and
> consequences of resistance in the camps.

    I might have some info on this.

>     Please feel free either to send this info to the list or to contact
> me directly via email if you have parallel interests or information to
> offer.  My real name is Todd Montgomery (BLFE is merely a mass-produced
> computer designation).
>
>     Oh, and, lastly, if anyone is aware of survivor's accounts dealing
> with the resistance issue, or knows of survivors with whom I could
> speak, I would be especially appreciative of this information!

    You might try the Holocaust List. There are some on that one who
can help you.

 >     Thanks, and I hope to hear from you.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:37:35 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Mick!

>         In fact, Erich Hartmann died near Stuttgart on the 21st of October,
> 1993, at the age of 71.

    Thanks for the exact info on Mr. Hartmann. I had seen him
interviewed  a couple of times before he passed on, and he really
looked bad.

    Thanks, again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 07:44:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Hello, Jim!

> Is anyone aware of any US citizens serving in the Waffen-SS?

    Any interesting idea, and given all that happened then, I am
certain that there were some, but it sure seems to have been kept
under wraps.

    There were Swedish and Swiss citizens who fought with them as
well. I have a friend of mine in Switzerland who is currently
compiling a book dealing with those of Swiss citizenship who fought
with the Waffen-SS. In fact, those who did were jailed upon returning
to Switzerland after the war.

 I understand
> attempts were made to recruit from American POWs. Also there may have been
> Germans who had acquired  American citizenship,later returned to the Reich,
> and joined the SS.

    I know of one person in the German Army at the time who did
exactly that, and won Germany's highest military decoration, the
Knight's Cross.

 J.Lee Ready's fascinating book _Forgotten Axis_ implies
> that there were Americans in the Waffen-SS but gives no names or details.

 I would be interested in learning more about this.

>  It appears from Dmitri Volkogonov's recent researches that some American
> citizens serving in the Wehrmacht were captured by the Russians.  Any
> such persons would of course have been in serious trouble with the US
> government, having committed  treason according to the definition written
> into the Constitution.

    In which case, I doubt that they would have returned home if
given alternatives.

    Thanks, again, for your very interesting post, and all the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 09:32:06 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

First, the Sturmbannfuhrer (SS-Major) was in the honorary SS, I think.
This is detailed in the book.  He was with the Kriminalpolizei, which is
detailed with investigating murders and other more interesting crimes.
This is a step above the Ordungpolizei, or Ordinary police, which was
in charge of putting out fires, traffic control, and other boring duties.
He was not with the Gestapo, the Secret State Police, either, which is a
step above the Kripo.

Second, the movie ends very differently than the book.  In the book, which
is a little better, he goes to Auschwitz, finds the remains of the camp, and
it is assumed that he is then killed by the Nazis.  The reporter, however,
is implied to have successfully made it through to Switzerland and then to
the US.  No "happy ending" in the book though - there is no implication that
the Nazi regime falls insofar as I recall.  It's been a while since I've read
the book and I don't have a copy handy.

Third, in the book it is said that while the Japanese were nuked, Hitler
was also able to develop the Bomb and took out a few American cities.  That
created situations for an armistice and cold war.

If the film is for history-igmos (ignorant mother fr's) the book is well
researched and was decent.  It's best quality was its depiction of the
fictional Nazi Germany.  I hope to see the movie this Tuesday night at
8PM

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 09:24:29 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Weap: Mustang range

        In addition to the extra fuel that was able to be carried by the
P-51, the Mustang was designed to reduce fuel gobbeling drag.  The wings of
the P-51 were of the laminar-flow design, which were very efficient and
effective at lowering induced drag which of course has to be overcome by
the engine.  The  airframe itself was also very efficient in reducing
parasite drag.  For example, the placement of the radiator airducts in the
belly as upposed to the chin or wings added to reducing the parasite drag
of the aircraft.  As a side fact, the P-51 was one of the faster aircraft
accelerating into a dive and pilots had to be very careful when diving on
straffing or bombing runs else they might misjudge when they needed to pull
out of dives.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:12:16 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Waffen SS

I heard the rumor that there was at least one blue-eyed, blond German Jew who
fought in one of the Waffen SS divisions and survived to tell his story. Un-
fortunately I have no other details on this possibly "military folklore"
tale.

-- Warren Thompson

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:39:25 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS,German Resistance and ...

On Sun, 27 Nov 1994, Ellen Shepard wrote:

> I am interested in the German Resistance, especially regarding any women's
> involvement.  I am looking for any information on this.  I am also looking
> for any surviving women who were involved in the resistance and the Holocast.

Ellen, I think this was discussed about a month ago, so if you look to
the WWII-L archives you may find more, but for the meantime, try _Berlin
Underground 1938-1945_ by Ruth Andreas-Friedrich. She was part of the
"Uncle Emil" resistance group and the book is a compilation of her
diaries. Hope this helps,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 09:41:38 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

> >
> There was a unit made up of Indians in the German Army but I think it was
> a Wehrmacht and not an SS unit (although you are right in saying that the
> Waffen SS had lots of "foreign" units).  I recall reading a book of
> transcripts of Hitler's conferences ("Hitler Directs His War" or
> similar), perhaps edited by Trevor Roper (sp?).  In one such conference
> the TOE of this Indian unit is given and discussed.   However I don't
> recall it being identified as a Waffen SS unit in that discussion.
>

There was an Indian unit in the Waffen SS who's name was "Kama" and
their collar insignia was a tiger head.  It may be that this and the
army formation were one in the same as it occurs to me that an order
was issued late in the war which brought all foreign volunteers under
command of Himmler and the SS.

The photos I have seen of the "Legion Indien" show them in tropical
uniforms sporting army insignia (and turbans!).  More research is
needed to verify if, in fact, these are the same troops that made up
Kama.

There were even Arabs serving in the Wehrmacht from the "Fries
Arabien" as well as virtually every Russian ethnic group formed into
its own units.  Spain sent a unit under a General named Munoz called
the "Blue Division" to placate Hitler who put Franco on the spot
about winning Spain's war but not helping in Germany's war.  There
were even Asiatic troops wearing the German uniform who were captured
in Russia and used in Normandy 6 June '44.

And they call the United States a melting pot :-)  It would have been
interesting (!?) to see how Hitler would have rewarded these troops
had he prevailed.  Most of these troops were non-Aryan and therefore
were to be subjugated.  Same goes for the Italians and Japanese.  Had
Hitler won the war how would his racist program have dealt with his
erstwhile associates?

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:45:58 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Sun, 27 Nov 1994, Ellen Shepard wrote:

> Last night on HBO there was an important original movie "Fatherland" starring
> Miranda Richardson and Rutger Hauer.  It answered the question:  What if
> Hitler had won?  Please try and see this important movie.  In this
> presentation the premise was the Hitler had won the war, all of Europe was
> called Germania, Joseph Kennedy was President of America, Hitler and Kennedy
> were allies, and the Holocast was kept a secret.

I read the book and, despite enjoying it, I don't think it "answered"
much about if Germany had won WWII. If I recall correctly, it was more of
a murder mystery set in a Germany after the Nazis had won WWII. It
doesn't really answer any questions on "what if" and kind of glosses over
the holocaust (IMHO). If you are interested in another book in the same
genre, try SS-GB by Len Deighton. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 11:03:49 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support in Normandy

>I have been following the recent discussion on Allied vs. German armour
>in the Second World War with a great deal of interest.  One issue that
>keeps cropping up is the enduring myth of air power as the great
>destroyer of tanks.  The British Typhoon and American Thunderbolt have
>both become renowned for their supposed specialty as tank busters.  This
>is largely incorrect.  As someone mentioned earlier in the week, the
>evidence compiled during the war by British operational research teams
>showed that the rocket-firing Typhoons had a great deal of trouble hitting
>targets, especially small, hard to see tanks.  A report compiled in
>November 1944 by the operational research sections of Second Tactical Air
>Force and 21 Army Group entitled, "Rocket-firing Typhoons in Close
>Support of Military Operations" came to the conclusion that to have a 50%
>chance of hitting a target the size of a Panther would require 140
>rockets (At eight rockets per aircraft that equalled 18 sorties).  In the
>first two months of the Normandy Campaign, rocket-firing Typhoons
>accounted for only 9 per cent of German tank casualties.  This compares
>to ground-based armour piercing weapons which were responsible for of 60
>per cent of all tank casualties.
>

Mike, is their research as to the effectiveness of these aircraft against
destroying tanks when they would use their guns in straffing runs.  I would
think that the Typhoon might be successful if it could bring its 20mm guns
to bear on the top, side, or rear armor of German tanks.  I would also
think that these weapons might be more accurate than the rockets.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 11:01:09 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, mc killop wrote:

> Yes, I saw the film and was very disappointed.  The director had
> the opportunity to make a first class "John LeCarre" film but it
> was the usual dull, plodding HBO movie.

Jack, you probably know this (because of the  " "'s) but Fatherland was
written by Richard (?) Harris if memory serves correctly. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:08:45 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

A question-

After it was found that Ju-87 were not up to defending themselves against
Spritfires and such, diden't they find new life as tank busters in Russia
carrying 20mm (?) under wing pods? Also, diden't the Soviets use the
Stormovik (sp?) as a tank buster? How did these planes fare against tanks
in general. I would agree that it would seem that cannons would be more
useful than rockets (unguided) against tanks-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | I am become death
Grad Student            | The Shatterer of worlds
Department of History   | Waiting that hour
University of Arkansas  | That ripens to their doom
[email-masked]   | Trinity-July 1945

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 11:05:56 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Allies in Swiss Airspace

Thanks all for the info on the Spit vs Mustang. My friend loved it and it
may just be enough to convince him to purchase a modem :-). I'm still
wondering if whoever posted that possibly-true, possibly-anecdotal story
on Allied planes violating Swiss air-space (about 1yr ago) would mind
posting it again. When I moved down south to Boston, I lost all of my
original files where I had it saved. Thanks,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 11:20:08 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Waffen SS

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Warren Thompson wrote:

> I heard the rumor that there was at least one blue-eyed, blond German Jew who
> fought in one of the Waffen SS divisions and survived to tell his story. Un-
> fortunately I have no other details on this possibly "military folklore"
> tale.

Warren, you may try the movie "Europa-Europa" (not to be confused with
"Europa" released the same year). It's based on a true story about a
Jewish boy who ended up in the Wehrmacht and then a HJ school. Not
exactly what you were talking about but an _excellent_ movie nonetheless.
Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 11:43:05 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Waffen SS

>
> I heard the rumor that there was at least one blue-eyed, blond German Jew who
> fought in one of the Waffen SS divisions and survived to tell his story. Un-
> fortunately I have no other details on this possibly "military folklore"
> tale.

I believe that this was the subject of a recent book/movie.  Can't remember
the title though.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 12:38:55 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

>A question-
>
>After it was found that Ju-87 were not up to defending themselves against
>Spritfires and such, diden't they find new life as tank busters in Russia
>carrying 20mm (?) under wing pods?

The Ju-87G was armed with two 37mm anti-tank cannons.

Also, diden't the Soviets use the
>Stormovik (sp?) as a tank buster? How did these planes fare against tanks
>in general.

The IL-2 "Stturmovik" was developed from the BSh-2 "Bronirovanni
Shturmovik" (armored ground attack) and became operational in mid 1941.
The aircraft was designed arround an armored "skin" of 7mm, with increased
plating arround the cockpit, radiators, engine ,and fuel tanks of 12mm. The
initial production aircrafts were single seaters on the insistance of
Marshal Stalin.  With a 1,600 Hp AM-38 engine the aircraft produced it's
maximum speed at low altitude giving it a speed of 251 mph and enabling it
to carry 8 82mm RS-82 anti-armor rockets or 1320lbs of bombs and two 23mm
ShVAK cannons and 2 ShKAS machine guns in the wings.  The production of the
IL-2's was held up when production was shifted to factories east of the
Urals.  Stalin told the workers (and more importantly the managers) of IL-2
production facilitis that the IL-2 were needed by the Red Army as much as
"air and bread."  In a time space of 12 months the time necessary to
produce IL-2 was reduced by some 40% leading to a total production run of
nearly 39,000 aircraft.  Most of the aircraft produced were of the two
seater IL-2M3 versions that was enlarged to accept a rear gunner with a
12mm ShKAS machine gun.  The IL-2M3 were streamlined to raise the speed by
21 mph, and armament was modified to include launchers able to disense 200
anti-armor bomblets and a pair of fearsome 37mm cannons in place of the 23
mm cannons.  The favored tactic of the IL-2M3's was to circle arround
behind German armor forces and attack in a slight dive in a line abreast
formation or to form a circle arround intended german armor units and dive
inwards to the targets from  all angles.  The IL-2 flew through some of the
heaviest anti-aircraft and ground fire seen to destroy the hitherto
invincible armor units with both cannon and rocket fire.

I would agree that it would seem that cannons would be more
>useful than rockets (unguided) against tanks-Drew
>
>Drew Philip Halevy      | I am become death
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:02:57 -0500
From:    Pulp-Fiction <[email-masked]>
Subject: Walter Model

I have requested that I be unscribed from this list, however if someone
has any information about General Walter Model, esp an biography in
ENGLISH. I would appreciate ppl contacting me on [email-masked]
Much appreciated.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:09:55 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hungarian Armour in World War 2

        Greg, how could I say no to an offer like that??  Unlike most of the
southeastern European countries (I won't name names so as not to embarass the
Dacian-descended among us) Hungary did have something of an indigenous armor
industry, although small-scale (yes, I know the Toldi was a copy of a Swedish
design-- but there's always the Turan and its offshoots.  They even made
modifications to that hallmark of armored vehicle design, the Italian L3).
I'll look forward to your post, I'm sure it will be enlightening as always.
BTW, the SS are not my bag so I'll keep silent on that one (except to mention
that the Hungarian SS units were primarily Volksdeutsch whose loyalty to the
legitimate Hungarian government was questionable at best-- in fact, the
Hungarians were upset when the Germans forced them to return Hungarian
citizenship to a group of Volksdeutsch recruited for the German armed forces--
they thought they were rid of them permanently and wanted it that way, thus
made loss of citizenship a condition of allowing Hungarians to enter German
service-- this of course before the Germans installed Szalasi and his boys).
Otherwise I can only echo the post you made about the Yugoslav SS and the
picturesque but unruly Skanderbeg Legion.

        Licking my chops in anticipation (beats leftover turkey)

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:25:07 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

This weekend a couple of my friends were visiting from Toronto, and we
decided to go to the dock-yards here in Boston and see the ships. After
having completed the main-deck self guided tour of the WWII destroyer,
the USS Cassin Young, we were speculating what was below decks. I asked a
man with a Cassin Young hat on, and he started to explain, and then said,
"...well, do you just have a look?" We, of course, lept at the
opportunity and got a great tour of the ship's lower decks and then the
Bridge and Gun-mounts (he even let us work the 40mm anti-aircraft guns
which we, being Canadians, pointed at the CONSTITUTION across the dock
:-) Should have some great photos. I have a couple of questions though.
First, Bill (the guy who took us on the tour) told us that all 324 crew
members had their own bunks and that there was no sharing. It didn't look
like this was possible. Does anyone know? The other thing that we were
wondering was what was the advantage of a 40mm anti-aircraft gun over the
smaller ones? Were they firing explosive projectiles like flak? Was a
40mm shell necessary to penetrate some planes? Also, does anyone know why
the USS CONSTITUTION is classified as a "frigate" even though she has 4 1/2
decks? BTW, I can't remember who said that the tour guides on the
CONSTITUTION were lame (it was a # of months ago) but they were 100%
correct. Our guy didn't know _anything_ except for his memorized speech,
and he was even having trouble with that. It this a place where they put
people who couldn't cut it elsewhere? Sorry, I've been rambling, but I
can't get out of my chair after having climbed the 296 steps up the
Bunker Hill Monument (just a bit out of shape). Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:29:56 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Weaps: Battleships

        Also, the arrangement of all main gun turrets forward on the RODNEY and
NELSON could not have been too impractical, as the French also adopted the same
system (actually, they used two quadruple-gun turrets) for their battlecruisers
DUNKERQUE and STRASBOURG, and later the battleships RICHELIEU and JEAN BART.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:15:25 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

     Drew,

     There were several "Tank Buster" aircraft during WWII that had great
     success using large bore (for aircraft) cannons.

     The British mounted a pair of 40mm guns under the wings of Hawker
     Hurricanes, keeping a pair of .303cal mgs to assist in aiming.

     The Germans did the same with the JU-87, except I believe they mounted
     30mm guns.

     The Russian IL-2/IL-10 Sturmovic was famous as a ground attack and
     tank busting aircraft, but it was initially designed for this role.

     The reasons that each of these aircraft were successful at the tank
     busting mission were:

        1.  At the time of their successful deployment, their forces held
     unquestioned command of the air.  Weighted down with these cannon,
     with the gun's extremely slow weight of fire, none of them would have
     been able to dogfight their way out of a paper sack.

        2.  Each of these aircraft provided an extremely stable gun
     platform, allowing the pilot to line up his shot successfully.  Even
     at the reduced speeds that the cannon armed aircraft flew, the tank
     wasn't going to be able to run away.

        3.  Tanks don't have the same thickness of armor all over.  Any
     tank that attempted to mount the armor protection maintained at the
     Glacis Plate over the entire vehicle would be unable to move at more
     than 2 mph or so (Look at the German MAUS).  The weight savings on
     tank armor are based on using thinner armor over the areas least
     likely to be shot (rear, bottom and top).  The thin top armor would
     succumb to a 30mm round that would have glanced off the frontal armor.

        4.  Tanks don't fight aircraft very well.  In the buttoned down
     mode used for combat, the tanker has no clue where the aircraft are
     attacking from.  Anti-aircraft defenses on most tanks consisted of a
     single machine gun, hand aimed, mounted on a pedestal outside the
     vehicle.  The only way to shoot back at the plane was to expose your
     body (or at least a significant portion of it) to bullets and shrapnel
     and man-handle the MG on a pintle mount, usually while the tank was in
     motion, not a very stable or effective way to shoot down aircraft
     passing by at 200-300 mph.

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:37:52 -0500
From:    Tom Shirhall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 22d in the Hurtgen 27 Nov 44

First, I want to thank Bob Rush for his account of this battle. He said:

>The advance resumed when Marcario Garcia, a Private First Class squad
>leader who began the battle as a scout, single handedly destroyed one
>machinegun holding up his company.  After being wounded by another
>machinegun, he went back into the woods and destroyed it gun also. The army
>later recognized his bravery with the Medal of Honor.

In one of the many TV accounts this summer, PFC Garcia was interviewed, and
he gave his account of his actions. He claims to have just done what needed
to be done. Apparently, he is still enjoying life.

Tom Shirhall
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:42:45 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Waffen SS

        And of course the film "Europa, Europa," which came out a few years ago
and won all kinds of plaudits and awards tells the alledgedly true story of a
young German-Polish Jew who was caught in the eastern (Soviet) portion of the
country in Sept '39 and later (June '41) volunteered as an interpretor for the
Germans, hiding his ancestry, in order to stay alive.  For an unintentional act
of heroism at the front he was sent back to an elite SS school in Germany by
his commanding officer, who thought he was cutting him a big break.  Agnieszka
Holland was the director.  At the end the real-life person on whom the story
was based, now retired in Israel, I believe, is briefly shown.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 12:52:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS,German Resistance and ...

Hello, Ellen!

Will try to provide what you are looking for.

More later.

Terry
> I am interested in the German Resistance, especially regarding any women's
> involvement.  I am looking for any information on this.  I am also looking
> for any surviving women who were involved in the resistance and the Holocast.
>  Thank you.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:46:36 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS,German Resistance and concentration camps

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, John Foster wrote:

-much deleted-
> bad light. Was this part of Hitlers final solution for the German people as
> well?
I don't think that there's any evidence that Hitler was planning on
gassing Berlin. His wartime policies, at the end, however, were designed
to destroy Germany- kind of a "if I can't have it, you can't have it" policy.

 The hair that was being collected in the camps he was told was for
> submarines and secret. Does anyone have any ideas what this was for.

I have always read that it was used for felt boot liners. Perhaps these
boot liners were also used by submariners to keep their movements silent?
Just a possibility. Hope this helps
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:02:49 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 6

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  28-Nov-1994 02:02pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 6

    [Ike and others believed an effort to capture Berlin was not necessary
    for the western Allies because the Soviets were closer.  We all know
    that decision has been argued ever since April of 1945.  It is the
    case, though, that throughout the world a great sigh of relief was
    heard with the news of the fall of the city for it meant the end of the
    war in Europe was truly at hand.]

    THE END

         "The Hitler of the early days was not to be compared to the wreck
    of a man to whom I reported on March 25, 1945 and who held out to me an
    exhausted, shaking hand.  Physically he painted a terrible picture.
    Tiredly and heavily, he moved from his living quarters to the
    conference room of the bunker, throwing his body forward, dragging his
    legs behind him.  He had lost his sense of balance; if he were stopped
    during his short path (20 to 30 meters) he would have to sit at one of
    the benches which flanked the corridor on either side or he would hold
    onto his discussion partner for support.
         He had lost the power over his right arm, and his right hand shook
    constantly.  It occured to me as I saw Hitler here in the bunker that
    in almost all his pictures he had, in the past years, always grasped
    his right wrist with his left hand.  It seemed clear to me that this
    had to do with an effect of the poison gas which he experienced in the
    First World War.  His eyes were reddened; although all written
    documents etc. intended for him were typed upon special 'Fuhrer
    typewriters' with letters three times the normal size, he could only
    read them with especially strong glasses.  From out of the corners of
    his mouth dripped saliva - a picture of misery and horror."
                                       - Gen. Eric Dethleffsen, German OKH

         "German General Weidling asked to come to my headquarters; he said
    blankly, straight out, that he was ready for capulation.  The crossing
    point for Weidling to come to my observation point had been fixed
    across the canal.  The bridges had been blown so that on all fours
    Weidling had been crawling along a water pipe to cross the canal.  He
    arrived holding his head in his hands and uttering only one word, 'a
    nightmare.'  I said, 'General, if it is a nightmare, then write out an
    order for capulation and let's stop this bloodshed.'  He had a nervous
    shock.  I asked him to bring two of his assistants to draft and
    formulate the order.  As they wrote it out, our interpreters then wrote
    it out in Russian and printed it in many copies.  Our officers and
    German officers sat side by side as they went out to distribute these
    orders where the fighting was still taking place."  But, said Marshal
    Chuikov, at this moment, without any orders, history was simply making
    itself.  The Germans surrendered in mass and the fighting was dying
    down.
                                       - General V.I. Chuikov, Soviet Army

         The Reichstag was stormed on the 30th of April and the Soviet flag
    was planted on top of it.  It was, therefore, a major coup for all the
    correspondents, particularly the photographers, to get the photographs
    of the event and rush them back to Moscow in time for the newspapers on
    May Day.  So the Russian war correspondents said, 'Look, Polevoi, you
    will have to go to Zhukov and ask for his special plane in order to get
    the film back to Moscow in time.'  Zhukov hemmed and hawed and growled
    a bit and then said, 'Take it.'
         Meanwhile, a Soviet cameraman called Turken had managed to get to
    the airfield and having heard of these arrangements presented himself
    in front of the Marshal's aircraft.  He indicated that his bag
    contained all the film which had been taken by the photographers.  The
    truth of the matter was that he had only taken four photographs and
    these he hoped to blanket the Moscow and Russian press and beat the
    other correspondents.  Polevoi went in and saw the Marshal and
    explained to him what had occured.  Zhukov was furious and demanded
    that the plane be shot down.
         But Turken, being a very experienced correspondent and knowing
    exactly what was going to happen had the radio operator send out
    messages heralding his arrival.  The messages were so exciting that a
    two plane fighter escort was sent to bring in Zhukov's special plane
    and the intrepid photographer, Turken.  Thus it was that the only
    photographs that appeared on May Day of the capture of Berlin the day
    before were those belonging to Turken.
                             - interview with Boris Polevoi, Soviet Army

         "I arrived at the Reichstag on the afternoon of May 2nd.  All war
    correspondents were there.  The building was filled with Russian
    soldiers.  It looked like a coliseum - a dead momument to a time that
    had passed.  Here represented the remains of a regime that had tried to
    indoctrinate the whole world.  Now it was lying at our feet.  We were
    all filthy - thousands of soldiers had scratched their names on the
    walls and the pillers such as 'I am Ivan from Moscow.  I came here.'"
                                            - Serge Golbov, Soviet Army

         Lt. Blake and Capt. Twohey decided to make a run into Berlin on
    May 7, 1945 via their jeep driven by a Chinese-American corporal.
    (Some months later it was reported that the Soviet generals assumed
    there were many Chinese in the US Army, a conclusion reached after
    seeing Blake's driver.)  They were probably the first Americans in the
    city.
         "The most noticeable thing about the destruction of the city were
    the number of smashed self-propelled guns and tanks.  Many were still
    on fire in the middle of town.  All through the city you could see
    completely wrecked tanks around which German women were sweeping and
    clearing the road.  My evaluation of the fighting was that it was
    either very intense of the Russians simply went wild.  Almost every
    wall had a spray of bullets on it.  There were still some bodies in the
    streets of Berlin when we got there."
                                  - Lt. Peter Blake, US 5th Armored Div.

    And that's it for _The Last Battle_.  Next will be installments from
    the exhibit "Untold Stories from _The Longest Day_."

    Doug

Received:  28-Nov-1994 02:02pm

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:05:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Mike!

Just a quick response to this query.

>         Terry, where did you find the information on Juutalianen (I've seen him
> credited with 74, not 94, and would love additional sources...)

   The figure of 74 may have been a typo. The sources I have quoted
you, including that of Mr. Juutlianen are 94. My thought anyway.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:18:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, again, Mike!

I am going to post the listing I have on the aces. Depending on the
person listed, I have some extensive info on these people.

>         Terry, how extensive is your information on Italian, Finnish,
> and/or Rumanian aces?

    See above.

?  For example, in the Squadron/Signal books on the
> Regia Aeronautica reference is made to Lt-Col Duilio Fanali, credited with
> 15 victories (which would have put him in the Italian top ten) and also
> described as a top fighter commander, but I have no info other than that on
> this gentleman.  Also, Sgt-Major Teresio Martinoli is supposed to be the top
> Italian ace prior to the Italian surrender (Visconti got seven of his 26 flying
> for the RSI) with 22 victories??  Anyone know which unit he flew for, what
> type of aircraft (probably MC202 but I've never seen it actually spelled out),
> any anecdotes?? Also, Martinoli was killed in a flying accident in June '44,
> but who was he flying for??  The RSI's ANR, Co-Belligerent AF, just for the
> hell of it??  If you or anyone else on the list can help I'd be appreciative.
> Also, Kozhedub was credited officially with 62 by the Soviets.  Aleksandr
> Pokhryshin, who started in a Mig-3 but moved up to the P-39 in '43-'44, is
> usually credited with 59 victories.  (Khozhedub is also the only Soviet pilot
> I've heard of to shoot down a Me-262, over East Germany in Feb '45).

    That is interesting info on Khozhedub. He died about a year or so
ago. Regarding specific info on aircraft flown, that will also
depend.

    Anyway, I am sending you and others the listing I have on leading
aces  of WWII. Here goes:

    Belgium--Lt. Count Rodolphe de Hauricort de Grunne. 13
    Czechoslovakia--Sergeant Josef Frantizek.           28
    China--Colonel Liu Chi-Lin                          11.5
    France--Captain Marcel Albert (Russia)              23
            Wing-Commander Jean Demozuy (RAF)           21
    Hungary--Lt. Dezzo Szentgorsyi                      34
    Japan--Warrant/Officer Hiroyoshi Nishizawa         104
    Norway--Captain Svein Haglund (still alive)         14.5
    Poland--Squadron Leader/Major R. Michael Gladych    22
    Rumania--Captain Prince Constantine Cantacuzene     60
    Russia--Major Ivan Kozhedub                         62
    Yugoslavia--Lt. Cvitan Galic                        36

               Commonwealth

    South Africa--Marmaduke T. St. John Pattle          41
    Britain--Group Captain James E. "Johnny" Johnson    38
    Rhodesia--Wing-Commander Adolf G. "Sailor" Malan    35
    France--Pierre Clostermann                          33
    Ireland--Brendan Finucane                           32
    Canada--George F. Beurling                          31.33
    Australia--Clive R. Caldwell                        28.5
    New Zealand--Colin F. Gray                          27.5
    American--Wing-Commander Lance Wade                 25

    It is interesting that Lance Wade was from a very small town in
East Texas not far from where I grew up. I mean the town might have a
population of 100. Yet, you ask about him down in that part of the
country, and they don't comprehend.

    Hope this helps and is of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:02:50 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Mike!

Sorry to have taken so long, but here goes the info on Eino
Juutilainen.

    Eino Ilmari Juutilainen, Warrant Officer

    Born 21 Feb 1914 in Licksa

    94 victories in 437 sorties

    Decorations:

    Mannerheim Cross 2nd Class on 26 April 1942

    Mannerheim Cross 2nd Class, Toisen-Kerran on 28 June 1944

    Iron Cross 2nd Class (Germany)

    A professional pilot.

    The aerial victory figure is substantiated by Toliver and
Constable in "Fighter Aces of the USA" in an appendix.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:25:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eighth Air Force

Hello, Mary!

Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you. Here is a listing
that may be of interest on the Ploesti raid that may contain info on
the individual groups about which you inquired:

    Combat Cameraman by Jerry Joswick (the only photographer to
survive the raid)

    Low-Level Mission by Leon Wolff (goes into detail on the raids on
Ploesti)

    Ploesti by James Duggan and Carroll Stewart (goes into the
captivity of the men shot down over Ploesti)

    Air War by Edward Jablonski

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:35:27 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

Hello, David!

Did you ever see the three part series called "An Englishman's
Castle" with Sir Kenneth More produced in England and was shown on
PBS some time ago? This did go into life in GB after a German victory
and the resistance movement that was never really stamped out. It
seems that the Germans left only a very small number of troops in the
country as occupational forces and relied heavily on English
collaboration to rule the country. An interesting series.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:54:34 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Walter Model

Hello, Pulp Fiction!

> I have requested that I be unscribed from this list, however if someone
> has any information about General Walter Model, esp an biography in
> ENGLISH. I would appreciate ppl contacting me on [email-masked]
> Much appreciated.

    I can supply his military career by dates and assignments, if
this is desired, or do you want a full-length commentary?

Please advise.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:51:08 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 22d in the Hurtgen 27 Nov 44

Re Marcario Garcia

Marcario Garcia died several years ago.  I believe that the interviews
were either done before he died or are of his son, who does quite a
bit of public speaking.

At the last 22d Regiment Reunion, Marcario's widow and son were present
when he was honored by the 22d

Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:10:12 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Hair from KZ inmates

There are also some reports that the hair was used as insulation in U-boats.

-- [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:21:47 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

The fact that Ellen brought up the HBO movie "Fatherland" leads me to ask
the question:  Did anyone record it?  I wanted to watch it, but had to
return to school before it was on and my grandfather, who has HBO,
doesn't have a VCR.  I would be willing to mail a VHS cassette and
postage for the return of that cassette to anyone willing to copy it for
me.  I guarantee that this is for my own viewing and not for financial gain.

Thanx,

C.K. Bryant
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:23:58 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

>Bridge and Gun-mounts (he even let us work the 40mm anti-aircraft guns
>which we, being Canadians, pointed at the CONSTITUTION across the dock
>:-) Should have some great photos. I have a couple of questions though.
>First, Bill (the guy who took us on the tour) told us that all 324 crew
>members had their own bunks and that there was no sharing. It didn't look
>like this was possible. Does anyone know? The other thing that we were
>wondering was what was the advantage of a 40mm anti-aircraft gun over the
>smaller ones? Were they firing explosive projectiles like flak? Was a
>40mm shell necessary to penetrate some planes? Also, does anyone know why

I did a little research and also called my father up since he was a Fire
Controlman on the destroyer Allen M. Summner (DD-692) in the pacific
theater from 1944 through 1945.  there are many reasons why you would want
to have a number of 40mm Bofor mounts on a destroyer.  First of the gun has
a decent range for that time period with a maximum range of 23,000 ft
though a practical range was about 15,000 feet.  This allowed you to get at
aircraft before they got in to close to hurt you.  The gun had a decent
rate of fire at about 120 rounds per minute firing a 2lb high explosive
shell fused to go off on contact or if it had travelled "too far".  If you
multiple this by the 4 or 2 gun mounts you have a platform that can throw
out alot of lead quickly.  Also, even though the pictures usually show a
gun crew aiming the weapon with hand cranks, most naval 4 gun and 2 gun
mounts were aimed by a mark 66 site operated by a fire control technician.
This was a gyroscopic site that allowed for leading and greater accuracy.
The 40mm gun also was good weapon for use against lighter skinned ships,
barges, and shore facilties that could not be hit by the main batteries or
were too light to waste 5" shells against.  My father was involved in a 3
destroyer assualt in Omarc Bay, Phillipines in early 1945 (I think) and
their mission was to intercept and destroy troopships and barges that were
off-loading Japanese soldiers.  While the main batteries were occupied
against the defending Japanese shore batteries and escorting destroyers,
the 40mm and 20mm were targeted against the barges and troopships.  My
father was ordered to train his 40mm mount on the mass of soldiers
attempting to get off these ships by climbing off the sides and into the
water.  If he couldn't find a target at any particular point, he was
ordered to target the waters edge and shores edge to finish off any
survivors.

Also he said that his ship had a compliment of approx 225 to 250 sailors
and their was no sharing of bunk space,  if extra space was needed extra
crew the normal method was to hammock them until a bunk opened up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:26:35 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

Opps sorry I think that I was supposed to type a Mark 44 site not a Mark 66
for the 40mm mounts.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:34:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS,German Resistance and concentration camps

Hello, David!

>  The hair that was being collected in the camps he was told was for
> > submarines and secret. Does anyone have any ideas what this was for.

    The hair collected in the concentration camps was used for
stuffing mattresses. My thoughts on it, anyway.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:39:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

Hello, Drew!

> After it was found that Ju-87 were not up to defending themselves against
> Spritfires and such, diden't they find new life as tank busters in Russia
> carrying 20mm (?) under wing pods?
'
    Yes, however, not 20mm but 37mm guns (2) were slung beneath the
wings and used as a tank buster. Hans-Ulrich Rudel was supposed to
have been the first to use this and used it to good effect.

 Also, diden't the Soviets use the
> Stormovik (sp?) as a tank buster?

    Yes. It had a heavily armored underside and 37 or 40mm cannon.

How did these planes fare against tanks
> in general.

    Rudel destroyed 519 tanks flying Stukas, but I don't know how
many destroyed using those 37mm's. The Il-2 also did very well. It
was a very difficult plane to shoot down.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:34:58 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

Dave Rising writes:

>This weekend a couple of my friends were visiting from Toronto, and we
>decided to go to the dock-yards here in Boston and see the ships. After
>having completed the main-deck self guided tour of the WWII destroyer,
>the USS Cassin Young, we were speculating what was below decks. I asked a
<Stuff deleted>
>decks? BTW, I can't remember who said that the tour guides on the
>CONSTITUTION were lame (it was a # of months ago) but they were 100%
>correct. Our guy didn't know _anything_ except for his memorized speech,
>and he was even having trouble with that. It this a place where they put
>people who couldn't cut it elsewhere? Sorry, I've been rambling, but I
>can't get out of my chair after having climbed the 296 steps up the
>Bunker Hill Monument (just a bit out of shape). Cheers,

Geez, Dave, Mea Culpa. I was the dude of which you seek. I was very disapointed
in the quality of the tour guides of the Connie. I don't have the origional
posting, but I'm sure someone does. Besides, you experienced it first hand.
Sad, so much History in such hands...

I visited Lexington over the holliday myself. Stopped by the Museum of Our
National Heritage. Someone on the list said things left at the Viet Nam
Memorial would be on exhibit, and they were. My father in law went with me.
I had to duck behind a wall to wipe my eyes a coupla times. VERY powerful...

I'll be visiting Connie soon again! Also hope to visit Battleship Cove in
the spring sometime.

If yer ever in Eastern CT sometime, spend the money and visit Mystic Seaport.
Let me know and I'll meetja if I'm free...

Cheers!                                                         Steve
'An a hoist of a wee cup!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:43:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What-if?-a double question

Hello, Drew!

> Assuming that there was no atomic bomb and if George Patton had lived,
> would he have fought in the Pacific, and how would he have done?-Drew

    Will try to answer this question. Obviously, the type of warfare
was different, requiring a different approach to combat. Patton would
have done as well, but it would have been impossible for him to
exhort his troops to advance over areas measured in yards rather than
miles, as quickly, as the Japanese had gone to extraordinary efforts
to fortify contested areas. I dare say, that he would have done well,
but you can forget the 30-40 mile per day advances that caught
everyone's fancy in France and Belgium. And don't forget the media,
as they were the ones who latched on to Patton's fabulous advances
and contributed as much as anything to his legend.

My thoughts.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:51:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS,German Resistance and concentration camps

Hello, John!

Thanks for your post, and I read it with much interest. I have no
knowledge of Kurt Gerstein, and, even if this story were correct,
this is probably a sobriquet.

There is nothing to support the contention that Hitler had hoarded or
ordered enough stored to gas the population of Berlin. He did
however, order the subways flooded to kill Russians trying to
infiltrate into the downtown area. This resulted in the killing of
many German wounded.

I would not place any credence in such a story.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:22:23 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

same for me, i would like to see a copy of this film-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | I am become death
Grad Student            | The Shatterer of worlds
Department of History   | Waiting that hour
University of Arkansas  | That ripens to their doom
[email-masked]   | Trinity-July 1945

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Cheryl Kaye Bryant wrote:

> The fact that Ellen brought up the HBO movie "Fatherland" leads me to ask
> the question:  Did anyone record it?  I wanted to watch it, but had to
> return to school before it was on and my grandfather, who has HBO,
> doesn't have a VCR.  I would be willing to mail a VHS cassette and
> postage for the return of that cassette to anyone willing to copy it for
> me.  I guarantee that this is for my own viewing and not for financial gain.
>
> Thanx,
>
> C.K. Bryant
> *******************************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
> *******************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:51:13 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Terry, would you be able to send me a short bio on Mr. Juutalainen??
I realize it would be time-consuming but anything you could offer, especially
about his WW2 combat career, would be extremely interesting.  I am more
interested in his combat experiences and what types of aircraft he flew, and
those other wheres and whens than info about promotions, medals, etc (unless of
course the medals were for some specific missions-- combat anecdotes are
especially welcome).  I imagine your correspondence with this gentleman must
have been very interesting.  Anything you could send me would be appreciated
and response time is no factor.
        BTW, I'd take the claims for Pattle with a grain of salt.  He claimed
at least 50 victories before his death in April '41, subsequently downgraded to
41 in some accounts and 34 in others.  I'd tend to believe the lower figure.
Christopher Shores in "Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41" did a
careful crosschecking of combat reports from units of all nations involved and
one thing that struck me was the huge air battle of 2/28/41, Brits vs Italians,
in which the British claimed 27 Italian planes, all supposedly confirmed by
Greek ground forces who saw the wrecks.  Italian losses that day were reported
as only eight aircraft (these were official unit reports, not for public
consumption, and unlikely to be falsified).  Those losses included only two
CR42's, a type of which Pattle was credited with three of in the action.

Regards and thanks for your posts

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 17:00:50 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

Jack,

Interesting synopsis, which I didn't read until after I sent my previous
note. I may have been wrong about the invasion of Britain in the book,
but there is definitely no contrite son and the girl gets away when the
Major leads the bloodhounds (literally and figuratively) 180 degrees off,
blowing his own chance to escape. I'm not sure which I like better,

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:50:51 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Apparently there were "several hundred"American citizens who served with
German armed forces during WW2, including some in the SS.
        I recall there was a flurry of magazine articles about these
American volunteers in Nazi forces, published 1949-1953.
        Of ciurse, I do not now have any kind of exact citations, but I
remember several photographs published at the time of American SS-men --
one of which showed an SS man (from New Jersey, of all places) being
presented with some medal or other by Uncle Adolph.
        It seems most of these were Americans who were either German-born
or of German parents, who got sucked up in the glittering Nazi propaganda
that was aimed at the German-American Bund. They sailed for the Fatherland in a glow of enthuusiasm for Hitler's new Order and joined up.  'Must have seemed
a dumb idea to some of them three years later when they found themselves
freezing to death in Russia.
Sad, really.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:53:05 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

As I recall, the book, understandably, did not stress the point of "how."
It postulated a successful invasion of England, and a permanent guerilla
war on the Volga frontier, sustained by the Americans. A key element of the
plot was to prevent the Americans from finding out about the Holocaust.
Essentially, the book was a decent actioner in a unique setting, half           detective story and half science fiction alternate timeline. Politics
were background to the plot.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 17:09:59 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PFC Garcia and 22d in the Hurtgen 27 Nov 44

The following is PFC Marcario Garcia's citation:

"While an acting squad leader of Company B, 22d Infantry, on 27 November
1944, near Grosshau, Germany, he singlehandedly assaulted 2 enemy
machinegun emplacements. Attacking prepared positions on a wooded hill,
which could be approached only through meager cover, his company was
pinned down by intense machinegun fire and subjected to a concentrated
artillery and mortar barrage. Although painfully wounded, he refused to
be evacuated and on his own initiative crawled forward alone until he
reached a position near an enemy emplacement. Hurling grenades, he boldly
assaulted the position, destroyed the gun, and with his rifle killed 3 of
the enemy who attempted to escape. When he rejoined his company, a second
machinegun opened fire and again the intrepid soldier went forward,
utterly disregarding his own safety. He stormed the position and
destroyed the gun, killed 3 more Germans, and captured 4 prisoners. He
fought on with his unit until the objective was taken and only then did
he permit himself to be removed for medical care. S/Sgt. (then private)
Garcia's conspicuous heroism, his inspiring, courageous conduct, and his
complete disregard for his personal safety wiped out 2 enemy emplacements
and enabled his company to advance and secure its objective.

Taken from :_The Congressional Medal of Honor Library_

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:20:03 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

Hello Ron, Drew, Steve, Terry and all others,

I have been waiting for a physics or chemistry guru to post a better
explaination of this but since no one has yet I will do my best.

One reason the aircraft armed with 20mm, 30mm, 37mm or 40mm cannons
work well against armored vehicles and targets could be the type
of round the cannon is firing.  A solid round/saboted core with a
much higher atomic weight than that of the tank armor will punch
holes in the tank armor, not to mention the crew.

This is the same thing the modern A-10 Warthog/Thunderbolt does
with it's 30mm chain gun firing spent plutonium rounds.  I have
heard or read that it (spent plutonium rounds) can punch through
ANY armor.  There was no spent plutonium or chain guns in WWII so
the designers had to make due with what they had.

I think I read that the Germans developed a TUNGSTEN round that
was used by the Ju-87.  Perhaps it was the same article that told
of the German pilot credited with knocking the bow off the Soviet
Battleship.   Was that pilot also known for being a tank busting
specialist?

Well there is my $0.01 on the subject.

Hope that helped someone.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:25:48 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

The author of "Fatherland" seems to have an odd premise, "the Halocaust was
kept secret" by
by Germany winning the Second World War.

The German policy of exterminating Jews (and Poles, Gypsies, etc) was widely
known as early as 1941, through newspaper reports in Bitish and American newspapers.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:11:27 -0800
From:    ALEXANDER C MALCOLM <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

On Fri, 25 Nov 1994, Ellen Shepard wrote:

> Do you have a list of the women in Hollywood who were involved in WWII?  I am
> very interested for research that I am doing?
>
I understand Julia Childs (the culinary artist) volunteered to serve in
the O.S.S. and parachuted into occupied Europe, where she very successfully
employed her espionage skills in obtaining secret information from the Nazis.
She was one of the first agents ever recruited by the O.S.S.
        I saw this on the Arts and Entertainment Network -- some special
on the O.S.S. and the C.I.A.   No kidding!  She's quite an amazing lady.

                                Alexander Malcolm  U.B.C.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:17:46 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

At  3:23 PM 11/28/94 -0500, Ron Babuka wrote:
>I did a little research and also called my father up since he was a Fire
>Controlman on the destroyer Allen M. Summner (DD-692) in the pacific
>theater from 1944 through 1945.  there are many reasons why you would want
>to have a number of 40mm Bofor
[...]
>My father was involved in a 3
>destroyer assualt in Omarc Bay, Phillipines in early 1945 (I think) and
>their mission was to intercept and destroy troopships and barges that were
>off-loading Japanese soldiers.  While the main batteries were occupied
>against the defending Japanese shore batteries and escorting destroyers,
>the 40mm and 20mm were targeted against the barges and troopships.  My
>father was ordered to train his 40mm mount on the mass of soldiers
>attempting to get off these ships by climbing off the sides and into the
>water.  If he couldn't find a target at any particular point, he was
>ordered to target the waters edge and shores edge to finish off any
>survivors.

The grandfather of a colleague was commander of Comdesron  22 that sank I46
in Ormoc bay in Theron's 50 years ago posting of today.  I was curious to
see if Allen M. Summner was part of that group.  It was not, but Morrison
describes an action in Ormoc Bay involving Allen M. Summner that sounds a
lot like the one you are describing.  If so, it will be coming up soon
(12/2 - 12/3) on 50 years ago today.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:06:36 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

At  4:20 PM 11/28/94 -0600, Robert Hohlt wrote:
>Hello Ron, Drew, Steve, Terry and all others,
>
>I have been waiting for a physics or chemistry guru to post a better
>explaination of this but since no one has yet I will do my best.
>
>One reason the aircraft armed with 20mm, 30mm, 37mm or 40mm cannons
>work well against armored vehicles and targets could be the type
>of round the cannon is firing.  A solid round/saboted core with a
>much higher atomic weight than that of the tank armor will punch
>holes in the tank armor, not to mention the crew.
>
>This is the same thing the modern A-10 Warthog/Thunderbolt does
>with it's 30mm chain gun firing spent plutonium rounds.  I have
>heard or read that it (spent plutonium rounds) can punch through
>ANY armor.  There was no spent plutonium or chain guns in WWII so
>the designers had to make due with what they had.

Spent plutonium?  Or spent Uranium?

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 19:23:15 -0500
From:    Ellen Shepard <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

No, this was not about "it could happen."  It was to let you know that the
Holocaust did take place.  In case, anyone thought otherwise.  It is an
important film.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 18:55:01 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> On Fri, 25 Nov 1994, Ellen Shepard wrote:
>
> > Do you have a list of the women in Hollywood who were involved in WWII?  I
> > am
> > very interested for research that I am doing?
> >
> I understand Julia Childs (the culinary artist) volunteered to serve in
> the O.S.S. and parachuted into occupied Europe, where she very successfully
> employed her espionage skills in obtaining secret information from the Nazis.
> She was one of the first agents ever recruited by the O.S.S.
>         I saw this on the Arts and Entertainment Network -- some special
> on the O.S.S. and the C.I.A.   No kidding!  She's quite an amazing lady.

Julia Childs?!

Well, she'd have the element of surprise on her side -- She's definitely
someone I wouldn't immediately think of when talking about espionage...

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 19:53:06 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 22d in the Hurtgen 29 Nov 44

Lanham was sure the regiment would attack on the twenty-ninth.  He intended to
skirt Grosshau to the north and move the regiment closer to the town of Gey,
the next objective. Maneuvering to the north would use the regiment's stronger
units massed on the northern flank.  He used the 3d Battalion as his striking
force, with the 1st Battalion following the 3d.  The badly weakened 2d
Battalion, strengthened with tanks and tank destroyers, in left in place to
protect the regiment's right flank and watch Grosshau from the west.

The 3d Battalion's advance, along with the progress being made by the 5th
Armored Division through Kleinhau in the south, would effectively surround
Grosshau.  Lanham hoped this would convince the Germans in Grosshau to
surrender without being attacked.
The 22d in the Hurtgen Forest 29 November 1944

Lanham was sure the regiment would attack on the twenty-ninth.  He intended to
skirt Grosshau to the north and continue to move the regiment closer to the
town of Gey, the next objective.  Maneuvering to the north would use the
regiment's stronger units massed on the northern flank.  He used the 3d
Battalion as his striking force, with the 1st following the 3d.  Lanham kept
the badly weakened 2d Battalion, strengthened with tanks and tank destroyers,
in place to protect the regiment's right flank and observe Grosshau from the
west.

Teh 3d Battalion's advance, along with the progress of the 5th Armored
Divisions through Kleinhau in the south, would surround Grosshau, and hopefully
convince the defending Germans to surrender without being attacked.

On the twenty-ninth Lanham set his regiment into motion, attacking according to
General Barton's plans three hours and forty-five minutes after the 5th Armor
Division began its attack on Kleinhau.  In the middle of a telephone
conversation close to the attack time, Barton announced that, "The whole front
would go today and the 22d wouldn't be alone."  At 1100 the 3d Battalion began
its advance with companies in column, King, Item and Love, northeast down the
draw toward Gey.  After a delay caused by enemy artillery, the attack
progressed rapidly northeast, then east, then south.

King Company's advance ran into a German counterattack, but the American
momentum  pushed the Germans back past their starting position.  By 1600, the
battalion was just north of the Grosshau-Gey road.  The woods were dark by 1800
and fighting was confused, with companies attacking along compass headings.
Kemp's battalion drove through three German lines, cutting the Grosshau-Gey
road, and finally reaching the open hill northeast of Grosshau.  During the
attack, Item Company lost two company commanders, Lieutenants John Colville and
Oscar Cantrell, in the space of a few hours.

At 1115, Lieutenant Colonel Delaney, the Division Operations Officer, called
Lanham and told him General Barton wanted Grosshau taken immediately.  Barton
was under pressure from General Collins to get the attack going and Grosshau
was a linchpin.  Since Lanham's plan to encircle Grosshau did not guarantee
success, he ordered a direct attack on the village.  The only battalion in
position to make an immediate attack was the battered 2d and it just had a
single company in position to carry out the order.

Kenan had no choice but to order Easy Company, dug in at the same location
since its attack on the twenty-seventh, to take Grosshau. Luckily, the night
before, Lieutenant Mason had brought the remainder of the company and about
forty replacements up.  Just and hour and a half after the division operations
officer had given the word to go, Easy Company began its attack.  Captain
Faulkner best describes the assault in his diary;

"November 29 was bright, clear and cold.... Received radio order at 1120 to
attack Grosshau at 1245 with four tanks coming up.  All a rush, but we moved
over the Line of Departure at 1245.  First platoon pinned down at once about 50
yards out by cross machinegun fire from village 150 yards east.  Sent 2d
platoon around right of woods.  They were immediately pinned down by fire.
More casualties.  Third platoon stopped cold at road on our left.  Few dead and
wounded.  No 536 radio communicaiton with platoons so used runners.  Too slow.
No 610 artillery radio, out.  Tried mortars with Lieutenant Fitzgerald
observing, no go.  Then
 artillery with Lieutenant Larsen as Forward Observer up at a point of woods
passing corrections along through men in shell holes.  Can't slip our arty fire
into edge of town where it's needed.  Can't get observation."

"Hurry, hurry, here comes Jerry artillery, 105 and some 88 direct fire on our
position.  I'm in a shallow ditch with Sussman, our 300 radioman.  First German
concentration fires about 20 to 30 rounds.  A minutes lull--then--swish, boom,
Sussman is blown over on his back.  I'm covered with dirt and can't hear.
There's the hole two feet away where the Kraut shell landed.  Too close.  We've
got to get a move on--quick.

"Here come our tanks.  Lead tank's bed rolls are on fire.  Tank commander cuts
them off. First tank reports it is filled with fumes and goes to rear.  Others
wait."

"Time drags on and my mind twists and squirms to find a solution and a way in
or
to get my men out from under that murderous MG fire.  Lots of casualties
pouring back or lying out in the open field."

"I report our situation to battalion on the 300 radio.  A pause, then their
reply "You'll have to do it-or else-understand?  Watch for Big Boys from the
South--Roger"

"Here comes our four tanks again at last.  I shouted the order to move in with
them. The gun jams on the lead tank.  Lieutenant Yeoman, the tank commander,
stops and coolly steps out of the turret with his ramrod to clear it.  More
Jerry mortar fire drops in on us.  We can't stay in this exposed position a
minute longer. I move on in the open, wave the second tank on and got our men
moving on the double.  Sergeant Ivy jumps to the top of the lead tank and spots
a strong point to the left of town.  Wave on the bulldozer tank and two TDs
[tank destroyers] to the left of town with first platoon and Lieutenant Railton
following. Two tanks down the center street with second platoon and Lieutenant
Larsen on left of street, and third platoon less one squad under Sergeant
Richardson on right of street."

"Sent one squad to right of town to cover the backyards on our right flank.
Kept 4th platoon now acting mostly as riflemen in reserve."

"We are moving and firing as we plug along. There comes the Big Boys from the
south across the open fields.  Twelve of them--no only 11 now, as one just
stopped by a mine.  I can see the crew jumping out."

"Well, that was it.  The tanks blasted a house at a time with HE [high
explosive] and tracer.  Their machineguns went like a bat out of hell. Regular
movie stuff--noise, fire, smoke, movement, confusion."

"Our boys threw grenades in the house windows and went in after the krauts.
Some 20 Jerries came pouring out of the first house. It was 1630. We did the
town that way and I followed the lead tank. . . .  We hit the east end of town
at 1830 and reported it to White 6 on the radio.  `Nice Work' was the reply . .
.  Company E casualties about 90. Started with approximately 170 men, ended
with 82."

One of Fox Company's platoons also participated in the attack, but German
counterattacks hit the platoon on the right flank and stopped the advance
before it really got started.  Fox Company arrived late in the evening and
occupied the southern part of the village, while George Company on the right
advanced up the open hillside to come on line east of the Kleinhau road.

Grosshau's capture proved surprisingly easy in the end.  Resistance collapsed
when the assault closed in and tanks reduced the houses one at a time. Although
Easy Company sustained  heavy casualties, relatively few soldiers fell during
the actual street fighting.  The regiment reported 162 casualties, with Easy
and Item Companies suffering the majority.

It is quite possible that Lanham's plan for surrounding the village was
responsible for Easy Company's success.  By the time Grosshau fell, the 3d
Battalion had cut the road to Gey and elements of the 5th Armored Division had
finished clearing Kleinhau and reported taking Hill 401.5.

At 1557 hours Lanham did not know if Easy Company would be able to take
Grosshau.  In a warning order to the 1st Battalion Commander, Lanham told him
to "make plans to take the town from the north tonight if things don't go any
better with Easy Company."  He also cautioned him, "I don't want you to take
too many PWs [prisoners].  If they want to fight to the death, then see that it
is their death." His bitterness towards the Germans in Grosshau probably
reflected the sentiments of other commanders like him in generations past who
had watched fortified garrisons decimatemeration of German units defending the
village.

When Lanham reported to General Barton that the 22d had captured Grosshau, he
was less than enthusiastic.  In response, Barton encouraged Lanham by saying
"We're doing the job we came here for.  We're whipping those Krauts--we're
paying for it, but we're whipping them."  Lanham was still depressed about the
casualties that his regiment had suffered when he talked with the Captain Tommy
Harrison, the 3d Battalion Executive Officer,

"The casualties are terrific. They have me depressed, [I] can't believe that
over 100 Krauts were still in the town after being pounded with 240mm, white
phosphorus, etc."

Had Lanham known that 250 Germans would ultimately be captured in and around
Grosshau, he would have been even more surprised.

There was confusion the night of the twenty-ninth about the location of units.
Elements of three regimental sized units, a combat command of the 5th Armored
Division in the south, the 22d in the middle, and the 12th Infantry in the
north were situated within 1500 yards of one another. During the night, members
of Fox Company saw what appeared to be a battalion of Germans in long overcoats
digging in on the same hill reported captured earlier in the day by the 5th
Armored Division.  Patrols went out and confirmed the sightings, but the
regimental intelligence officer (S2) refused to permit artillery fire on the
ridge in case the troops were really friendly.  Fox Company was told to "go to
bed and forget about it."  If elements of the 5th Armored had taken the hill,
they had not held it, and the Germans had reoccupied it during the night.

>From Paschendale with Treebursts
Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 18:52:20 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Waffen SS

In reference to below, see THE MURDERERS AMONG US by Simon Wiesenthal.
In there he refers to an "Alex" (a pseudonym), a blond-haired, blue-eyed
German Jew who was indeed conscripted into the Waffen-SS as a teenager in
an attempt by his parents to save him from the Holocaust.  "Alex" served
on the Eastern Front, was wounded, and later deserted.  After the war
"Alex" operated as a (very) clandestine infiltrator for Wiesenthal to
investigate neo-Nazi (and some not so neo-) organisations in Germany.

A fascinating story.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Warren Thompson wrote:

> I heard the rumor that there was at least one blue-eyed, blond German Jew who
> fought in one of the Waffen SS divisions and survived to tell his story. Un-
> fortunately I have no other details on this possibly "military folklore"
> tale.
>
> -- Warren Thompson
>
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 20:34:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eighth

 >The page I'm looking at is 264 under the heading "Night Leaflet Squadron."
 >But it is also list several other times in the book check out page 262-263.
 >
 >Scott

Scott,

This is what Freeman says about the Night Leaflet Squadron:
"Establish in Eighth AF 7 Sep 43 with 422d Bombardment Squadron
(H).  Redesignated as 858th Bombardment Squadron (H) on 24 Jun 44,
and finally as 406th Bombardment Squadron (H) on 11 Aug 44."

He goes on to say "Involved in OSS activities after VE-day.  Moved
Wiesbaden (Y-80) on 4 July 45, and flew special missions over Oslo,
Paris, etc.  Last propaganda flight 23 Oct 45.  Squadron
ianctivated late 1945."o

The COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, published by
the Office of Air Force History, HQ USAF in 1982, has the following
to say about the 422d, 858th and 406th Bombardment Squadrons.
Obviously, the two books do not track!

The 422d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), a B-17 outfit, was assigned
to the 305th Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Chelveston and flew
daylight bombing missions from 17 Nov 42 to 6 Sep 43; between 8 Sep
and 4 Oct 43, they operated with the RAF on night bombing missions.
On 7 Oct 43, they flew their first leaflet mission and continued
these operations until 24 Jun 44 while also flying pathfinder
missions between 22 Mar and 23 May 44; they went back to daylight
bombing after 6 Jul 44.  Between 17 Jun 45 and Aug 45, they flew
photo-mapping missions from Trond, Belgium and Lechfeld, Germany (I
wonder if this is where the mixup originated).

The 858th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) was a B-24 outfit assigned
to the 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy) and began operating from
North Pickenham on 11 May 44.  On 19 Jun 44, they moved to Cheddington
and were reassigned to the VIII Air Force Composite Command and
started flying leaflets missions; this continued until 4 Aug 44 and
the next day they were reassigned to the 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy).
They moved to Harrington on 10 Aug and began flying CARPETBAGGER
missions which continued until 16 Sep 44.  On 17 Sep 44, they went
back to bombing missions and this continued until 11 Mar 45.  On 12
Mar, they resumed CARPETBAGGER missions again and this continued
until 25 Apr 45.  The 858 was redesignated 858th Bombardment
Squadron (Very Heavy) on 5 Aug 45, left Harrington for the US
reporting to Sioux Falls AAFld, South Dakota on 14 Aug 45; they
transferred to Kirtland AAFld, New Mexico on 17 Aug 45 where the
squadron was inactivated on 17 Oct 45.  In addition to B-24s, the
858th flew C-47s in 1944 and A-26s and Mosquitos in 1945.

The 406th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) was transferred without
personnel and equipment to England on 2 Nov 43 and assgined to HQ
Eighth AF.  On 11 Nov 43, the squadron moved to Alconbury and was
reassigned to the 1st Bombardment Division and attached to the 482d
Bombardment Group (Heavy) from 4 Dec 43 to 21 Feb 44.  Equipped
with B-24s, the squadron began flying CARPETBAGGER missions on 5
Jan 44; this continued after moving to Watton on 7 Feb 44, being
reassigned to the VIII Air Force Composite Command on 26 Feb 44,
and moving to Harrington on 25 Mar 44.  On 5 Aug 44, the 406th
moved to Cheddington and shortly thereafter began flying leaflet
missions which continued until 9 May 45.  As stated in Freeman's
book on the Eighth AF, the squadron was reassigned to the VIII
Fighter Command on 1 Oct 44 and the 1st Air Divison on 30 Dec 44.
On 5 Aug 45, the 406th was reassigned to the 492d Bombardment Group
(Very Heavy) and the squadron was redesiganted 406th Bombardment
Squadron (Very Heavy).  As with the 858th above, the 406th left
Harrington on 6 Aug 45, was established at Sioux Falls AAFld, South
Dakota on 14 Aug 45, moved to Kirtland Field, New Mexico on 17 Aug
and was inactivated on 17 oct 45.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 20:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 29 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s bomb Kashiwabara on Paramushiru
Island. B-25s call off a shipping sweep due to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-25s bomb Ninh Binh, French
Indochina and 8 hit Lashio and 3 attack Hsenwi, Burma. 20 P-40s, P-38s,
and P-51s hit targets of opportunity in the Chefang, China area. 23 P-38s and
P-51s attack bridges, horses, shipping, and rail traffic around Hochih and
Nanning, China; Quang Yen, French Indochina; and Hsenwi, Kawnghka, and
Namhkai, Burma.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 50+ fighter-bombers fly
close support strikes in the battle areas around Bhamo and Pinwe; bridges at
Tonbo, Pauktaw, Man Loi, Meza, Bon Chaung, and at 2 unnamed points in N Burma
are pounded by 60+ fighter-bombers; 8 others bomb supplies, personnel and
ammunition stores at Tigyaing. 323 transport sorties are flown to forward
areas. The 1st Combat Cargo Squadron, 1st Combat Cargo Group, moves from
Sylhet to Tulihal, India with C-47s; the 490th Bombardment Squadron (Medium),
341st Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Moran, India to Warazup, Burma
with B-25s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 729: 1,077 bombers and 946 fighters are dispatched to make PFF
attacks on viaduct rail targets and oil refineries in Germany; 1 bomber is
lost:
  1. 445 B-17s are sent to hit the oil refinery at Misburg (391); targets of
opportunity are Osnabruck (36) and others (5); 6 B-17s are damaged. Escorting
are 419 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  2. 307 B-24s are sent to hit the Schildesche rail viaduct at Bielefeld
(152) and the Altenbeken rail viaduct (144); 2 others hit targets of
opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 9 damaged; 10 airmen are MIA. Escorting are
261 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  3. 312 B-17s are sent to hit the Hamm marshalling yard (294); 4 others hit
targets of opportunity; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 87 damaged; 3
airmen are WIA. Escorting are 112 of 120 P-51s without loss.
  4. 12 of 13 B-17s fly a screen mission and hit a target of opportunity.
Escorting are 26 of 32 P-47s without loss.
  5. 31 of 34 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 730: 6 B-17s and 7 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.
  HQ 489th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the 844th, 846th and 847th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) depart Halesworth, England for the US; this
B-24 group will become a B-29s outfit that is destined for the Pacific.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 301 B-26s and A-20s hit
defended areas, barracks, and military depots at Wittlich, Mariaweiler, Pier,
Eisdorf, Limburg, Rastatt, and Landau; fighters escort the 9th Bombardment
Division and Eighth AF, fly armed reconnaissance over W Germany, and support
the 104th Infantry Division in a holding action against counterattacks at
Inden and Lammersdorf, the 8th Infantry Division at Hurtgen, and the 7th
Armored Division in the XIII Corps drive toward the Roer. HQ 10th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and the 31st Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron with F-5s moves from Robinson Airfield, St-Dizier to Doncourt
Airfield, Conflans and Jarny, France respectfully.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather limits operations to
photo and weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 28/29
Nov, A-20s fly armed reconnaissance over the Po Valley, dropping incendiaries
at several points including bridges at Piacenza and Castel Maggiore and the
airfields at Ghedi and Villafranca di Verona; during the day weather grounds
the medium bombers however, fighters and fighter-bombers can operate, and
blast enemy communications on the Brenner line and in the NC Po Valley,
cutting rail lines in numerous places and destroying a large number of
vehicles and railroad cars.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 18 B-24s from Guam Island bomb Iwo Jima Island.
4 P-47s from Saipan Island strafe Pagan Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 24 Mariana Islands-based B-29s strike the
Tokyo dock and industrial area during the night of 29/30 Nov; 2 B-29s bomb
the last resort targets of Yokohama and Numazu.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s bomb Matina Airfield on Mindanao Island while A-20s and P-47s
hit the airfield at Pangsagan; B-24s, with fighter cover, pound Puerto
Princesa Airfield on Palawan Island and Kendari Airfield on Celebes Island.
B-24s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers fly several light raids against Halmahera
Island airfields and against shipping and other targets of opportunity in the
Philippine Islands, the Ceram Island area, N Celebes Island, and N Borneo.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

29/0149Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Nov 1994 03:10:04 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support planes vs. tanks

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> One reason the aircraft armed with 20mm, 30mm, 37mm or 40mm cannons
> work well against armored vehicles and targets could be the type
> of round the cannon is firing.  A solid round/saboted core with a
> much higher atomic weight than that of the tank armor will punch
> holes in the tank armor, not to mention the crew.

It is not purely the round, but also the muzzle velocity of the gun. For
example, many German fighters had, for air-to-air use, the MK 108 30mm
gun; this was a light gun (for a 30mm cannon) with a muzzle velocity of
505m/sec. But the Hs 129 tank-buster had the MK 103 30mm gun, heavier, but
with a muzzle velocity of 960m/sec. The BK 3.7 had a muzzle velocity of
798m/sec.

I'll have to search for the type of round they usually fired.

> This is the same thing the modern A-10 Warthog/Thunderbolt does
> with it's 30mm chain gun firing spent plutonium rounds.

Off-topic: The "chain gun" is the 30mm M230, a single-barrel gun used by
the AH-64 Apache helicopter. The GAU-8 'Avenger' gun of the A-10 is a
multi-barrel gatling gun, MUCH larger than the M230.  It is said that in
terms of the energy delivered to the round (1/2 * weight * speed^2) the
GAU-8 is more powerful than many WWII-vintage 150mm guns.

> I have
> heard or read that it (spent plutonium rounds) can punch through
> ANY armor.  There was no spent plutonium or chain guns in WWII so
> the designers had to make due with what they had.

Uranium, of course. They are not 'spent', but 'depleted', meaning that
they are the U235 isotope, which can't be used for bombs.

> I think I read that the Germans developed a TUNGSTEN round that
> was used by the Ju-87.  Perhaps it was the same article that told
> of the German pilot credited with knocking the bow off the Soviet
> Battleship.   Was that pilot also known for being a tank busting
> specialist?

Yes. Rudel was credited with a battleship as well as 500+ tanks.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 22:07:52 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Julia Child in the OSS

Julia Child, so far as I know, served as an OSS clerk in China,
where she met her husband, a gifted amateur chef who got her
interested in cooking. This is the first I've heard of her being
in Europe or working behind enemy lines. Does anyone have more
details?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 20:23:25 -0700
From:    Anwar Kassam <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

NEED HELP QUICK!! We received an assignment which involves having to identify
the authors of certain speeches and I am having a little bit of trouble
identifying who said the following in the second world war:

"Comrades, the enemy must not be left a single engine, a single railway-car, a single pound of grain or gallon of fuel... In areas occupied by the enemy
guerrillas must be formed; sabotage groups must be orgamized to combat the
enemy, to fomen guerrilla warefare everywhere, to blow up bridges and roads..."

I would very much appreciate if anyone can enlighten me as to who said this and when it was said.

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 22:36:16 -0500
From:    "Arthur D. Venzin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS CASSIN YOUNG and USS CONSTITUTION

I have an uncle taht was on the Bunker Hill. I know he would appreciate any
info about his ship.  He has spoken about how he had to dive into the water
after it was hit.  It was very tramatic for him and I know that he has never
put all the ghosts to bed.  Any info would be welcome

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 22:45:54 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Comrades" speech

Off the top of my head, it's either one of Molotov's speeches to the
Russian people (I think there were two) in the first ten days of
the German invasion, or a speech by Stalin to the people or to the
Stavka, shortly thereafter. You might check Alexander Werth's
RUSSIA AT WAR; he's good on that sort of thing.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:14:35 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> same for me, i would like to see a copy of this film-Drew

Don't worry guys, it's HBO. IOW, it will be played at least one million
times before they let it die a decent death, _and_ it will probably be
out on video soon. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:21:02 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Fatherland"

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> The German policy of exterminating Jews (and Poles, Gypsies, etc) was widely
> known as early as 1941, through newspaper reports in Bitish and American newspapers.

Widely known, yes, but not really believed. I think it's plausible that
if the Germans had won they could have kept a lid on it. As Hitler said,
"it's the victor who writes history." (or something like that) On the
other hand, if the German's had won it's also plausible that they
wouldn't have cared if anyone had known about the final solution. Given
the German people's reaction to the euthanasia program, they probably
would have wanted to keep it quiet, but you never know...
David Rising

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Nov 1994 to 28 Nov 1994
*************************************************