Subject: WWII-L Digest - 2 Nov 1994 to 3 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 00:01:26 -0500

There are 35 messages totalling 1840 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. question-- aircraft (Me 102)
  2. 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN SPA, BELGIUM
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-NOV-1944
  4. ME163
  5. more on bersaglieri
  6. RIP (2)
  7. WEAP: CVE-99  USS Admiralty Islands
  8. WEAP: CVE-98 Kwajalein
  9. italian army (2)
 10. OOPS!  45,000 lb Bomb
 11. MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt (2)
 12. INF: USN Chronology 11-03-94
 13. WEAP:  P-38 CBI & Alaska
 14. SUBSCRIPTION
 15. INF: Regia Marina, Part 7
 16. WEAP: Sonar
 17. TECH ETO logistics
 18. [Gen] Copied Aircraft. (5)
 19. 44,000 lb bomb
 20. Pacific Books
 21. WEAP:  Misc Aircraft Information
 22. [INF] USAAF 4 NOV 44
 23. HYPO"The big what"
 24. alpini in WW2
 25. RE [GEN] Copied Aircraft
 26. WEAP:  44,000lb bomb
 27. 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN
 28. WEAP B-32

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 00:27:00 EST
From:    Robert Quirk <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: question-- aircraft (Me 102)

From:   NAME: Robert Quirk
        FUNC: IRAP-NRC
        TEL: (204) 983-4150                   <QUIRK@A1@ATWINN>
To:     NAME: IN%"[email-masked] <IN%"[email-masked]"@NRCNET@MRGATE@ATOTT2>

>From Heinz J Nowarra's book Aircraft & Legend, Messerschmitt Bf 109, page 8
(Background to the 109)
"...the direct predecesssor to the Me 109, was the M37 which was redesignated
Bf108..."

Prior to this the author mentions Messerschmitt's previous designs with "M"
prefixes eg: M18, M23, M29.

So, there may have not been anything prior to the 108.

Hope this helps.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:35:26 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN SPA, BELGIUM

  November 3, 1994

  While Montgomery's forces were fighting a terrible battle to open access to
Antwerp, the 4th Infantry Division was still holding the line just across the
Belgian border in Germany.  Once again I took advantage of the lull to have a
brief respite from war, as illustrated by this letter to my family:

          BILL SYDNOR AND I MAKE A VISIT TO SPA, BELGIUM

          Dear Folks, November 3, 1944, Somewhere in Belgium

          The other day there was an opportunity to go on a one day
          pass. Lt. Bill Sydnor and I learned that Spa was on limits
          now, so we decided to go there.

          I was talking to Mr. Rinehimer, our personnel officer, about
          noon one day, and he told me that this village was available
          to troops. Going over to our CP I found Bill Sydnor. He liked
          the suggestion, and we talked to the colonel. The colonel
          acceded to our wishes, and before he could turn around, we
          were on our way. We went in a jeep, taking a driver and a
          "body guard" to keep the driver company.

          After a cold drive to Spa, we started immediately to look for
          a room, before it got dark. After some disappointments we
          got a sergeant to take us to a small, but very nice,
          apartment hotel. Its proprietor, a Mrs. Boland, is the wife of
          a colonel in the US Army. She was stranded in Belgium by
          the war and elected to remain. Her son and two daughters
          got out just in time.

          The rooms, one for Bill and me and the other for the men,
          were very nice. Rich furnishings and a wonderfully soft bed.
          Private baths are uncommon on the continent, but there
          was a nice bathroom on our floor. This was the first time I
          have been in a tub since June 6, although now we get an
          opportunity to use QM showers every week or two.

          After cleaning up, Bill and I asked Mrs. Boland to
          recommend a restaurant. She sent us just across the street
          to Restaurant Esperiere. There we had a vegetable soup,
          french fried potatoes, peas, and STEAK, with wine to drink.
          For dessert we had a fresh apple (another first) and grapes.
          Also, we bought ice cream at a corner from a vendor. My,
          I thought I was in heaven.

          During our meal a Captain Stevenson, who used to be
          General Roosevelt's aide-de-camp, came into the restaurant.
          He is now our division's PRO (public relations officer). I got
          acquainted with him during the Normandy landing. He
          suggested we come over to the Portugal Bar after dinner. We
          did.

          He, a Red Cross girl, and a group of reporters were having
          a little party. Among the group was your city's Cy Peterman,
          a likeable, loquacious individual. Another was Henry Gorrell
          of United Press. Then there were various and sundry
          reporters from London and American newspapers. We had
          a fine time, the party dissolving about 0200.

          We slept late the next morning, then window shopped, and
          had dinner. Shortly thereafter we took off for our work
          again. These brief interludes are pleasant and refreshing,
          but they also make it that much harder to return to the
          realities of the present.

          In Spa, one would think himself in the States. Only when
          a buzz-bomb goes by or some planes soar overhead would
          one know there was anything unusual going on. There are
          trolleys running and the city has been unmarked by the
          war. Incidentally this IS the Spa you've heard so much
          about with its mineral baths.

          Things go well for us all. The mail has been a bit light
          lately, but it will come in a rush one of these days.

          My love, John

          This letter requires a few comments. Henry Gorrell will make
          another appearance in my discussion of the Huertgen Forest
          fighting.

          Also, it might have been best not to go to Spa, for it gave
          me an idea of how the other half lived. The contrast between
          life at a higher headquarters and the front was striking, and
          I began to regret my decision to turn down an offer in the
          US to become a general's aide, in order to remain with my
          friends.

          Excerpt from Chapter 11 of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 04:33:05 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-NOV-1944

On 04-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The British I Corps continues to advance on the Maas
estuary, capturing Geertruidenberg. The first Allied minesweepers reache
Antwerp and begin to clear the Scheldt estuary. In the US 7th Army sector,
the 3rd Division continues to advance west of St Die.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front takes Cegled and Szolnok in Hungary.

Philippines (Leyte) - The X Corps is ordered to re-group and take up a
defensive position in the Carigara area, in the north of the island. In the
XXIV Corps sector, units of the 96th Infantry Division renew their attacks at
Bloody Ridge, west of Dagami. More night Japanese counter-attacks are repelled
by heavy artillery.

Burma - The 5th Indian Division occupies Kennedy Peak, south of Tiddim.

The Homefront
-------------
Army Seizes Plants - The Army, at the direction of President Roosevelt, takes
over control of seven Toledo, Ohio war plants because of a strike by members
of the Mechanics Educational Society of America.

Plane Crash - Twenty-four persons have been killed in the crash of a
Transcontinental & Western Air transport near Hanford, California.

College Football - Arkansas 7, Texas A&M 6; Army 83, Villanova 0; Duke 19,
Georgia Tech 13; Michigan 41, Penn 19; Navy 62, Notre Dame 13; N.C. State 21,
VMI 6; Ohio State 21, Indiana 7; South Carolina 6, North Carolina 0.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:08:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME163

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with some more titles regarding the Russian Front. However,
I found two more books dealing with Normandy that I failed to mention
previously. They are:

             D-Day Beaches Revisited by Patrice Boussel
             Letters from Home by John Ausland

                     Paperback

The Tigers are Burning by Martin Caidin (concerns Kursk)
Siege and Survival: The Odyssey of a Leningrader by Elena Skrjabina
Commandant of Auschwitz by Rudolf Hoess
Hitler's Secret Service by Walther Schellenberg
The Man Who Started the War by Guenter Peis
The Death of Hitler's Germany by Georges Blond
The Survivor by John Ehle
Last Letters from Stalingrad translated by Charles Schneider
Treblinka by Jean-Francois Steiner
23 Days: the Final Collapse of Nazi Germany by Marlis Steinert
I Survived Hitler's Ovens by Olga Lengyel
Final Entries: The Diaries of Josef Goebbels by Hugh Trevor-Roper
New Lives by Dorothy Rabinowitz
Hitler Directs His War by Felix Gilbert
The Goebbels Diaries by Louis Lochner
Battles Lost and Won by Hanson W. Baldwin
The 900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad by Hanson W. Baldwin
Canaris by Charles Whiting
The Russian Convoys by B. B. Schofield
Stuka Pilot by Hans Rudel
Free as a Running Fox by T. D. Calnan
Stalingrad by Heinz Schroeter
Panzer Leader by Heinz Guderian
To Live and Kill by Stefan Gazel
Gehlen: Germany's Master Spy by Charles Whiting
A Spy Has No Friends by Ronald Seth
The Destruction of Dresden by David Irving
The Road to Stalingrad by Benno Zieser
The Scourge of the Swastika by Lord Russell of Liverpool
Commando Extradordinary by Charles Foley
Defeat in the East by Juergen Thorwald
The Blond Knight of Germany by Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable
A Woman in Berlin (Anonymous)
The Russians and Berlin 1945 by Erich Kuby
Enemy at the Gates: The Battle for Stalingrad by William Craig
Eichmann: The Man and his Crimes by Comer Clarke
The Fall of Berlin by Marshal Vasily Chuikov
The Black March by Peter Neumann
The Last 100 Days by John Toland
Ploesti by James Duggan and Carroll Stewart
Seven Men at Daybreak by Alan Burgess (concerns the assassination of
Heydrich)
Himmler by Willi Frischauer
The Theory and Practice of Hell by Eugen Kogon
The German Generals Talk by B. H. Liddell-Hart
The Last Days of Hitler by H. R. Trevor-Roper
The Fatal Decisions by Seymour Friedan
Escape from Colditz by P. R. Reed
The Men who tried to Kill Hitler by Manvell and Fraenkel
Marshal Zhukov's Greatest Battles by Georgi K. Zhukov
The Great Escape by Paul Brickhill
The Man with the Miraculous Hands by Josef Kessel
Minister of Death by Quentin Reynolds
Code Name Valkyrie by James Forman
Berlin: Story of a Battle by Andrew Tully
The Eichmann Commandos by Justice Michael Musmanno
The Trial of Adolf Eichmann by Dewey Linze
Martyrs and Fighters by Philip Friedmann

This is the first installment of many more dealing with the Russian
Front. More tomorrow.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:13:24 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

Hello, Mike!

I will be very happy to oblige. I corresponded with his wife.

I will get the info to you tomorrow.

Thanks again for your fine post.

Terry

>  Yes, I believe that is the same Fullreide.  I also ran across the name in
> regard to German units operating in Tunisia in spring '43.  And didn't I see
> him mentioned in another post recently.  I'd be interested in seeing a full
> biographical sketch of this officer.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike Yaklich
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:26:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: RIP

The Associated Press is reporting that Commander Wilhelm G. "Bill"
Esders, died of a heart attack at Penscola, Florida on Tuesday,
November 2.  He was 80.  Esders was the last surviving Douglas TBD
Devastator pilot that attacked the Japanese fleet at Midway.  During
the TBD attack by three torpedo squadrons, 39 of 41 pilots and all
but one enlisted crewmen were killed.  The only surviving "white
hat" is  Lloyd Childers, a radioman-gunner who later became a
Marine Corps pilot.

In addition to Midway, Esders also fought at Guadalcanal and the
Battle of the Eastern Solomons.

Requiescat in pace.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:36:21 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-99  USS Admiralty Islands

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. A, 1991, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

ADMIRALTY ISLANDS (CVE-99)

dp. 7,800;
l. 512' 3";
b. 65', ew. 108' 1";
dr. 22' 6";
s. 19.3 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5, 16 40-mm., 20 20-mm., 28 ac.,
cl. CASABLANCA; T. S4-S2-BB3

CHAPLIN BAY (CVE-99) was laid down under a Maritime Commission contract
(MC hull 1136) on 26 February 1944 by the Kaiser Shipbuilding Co.,
Vancouver, Wash.; renamed ADMIRALTY ISLANDS (CVE-99) on 26 April 1944;
launched on 10 May 1944; sponsored by Mrs. Homer Norman Wallin, and
commissioned at Astoria, Oreg., on 13 June 1944, Capt. J. D. Barner in
temporary command. Later that day, command of the ship passed to Capt.
M. E. A. Gouin.

The escort carrier departed Astoria on 2 July for shakedown training in
Puget Sound and then sailed for San Francisco to take on fuel oil and
aviation gas. She arrived at San Diego on 14 July for further training
before becoming a unit of the Carrier Transport Squadron, Pacific Fleet,
with the task of transporting aircraft, material, and personnel to
support front line carrier operations.

After a brief pause at Pearl Harbor, ADMIRALTY ISLANDS got underway for
the Marshall Islands. She disembarked her cargo at Majuro Atoll on 9
August and immediately returned to Pearl Harbor. The carrier then
shuttled more planes and personnel back to San Francisco, arriving there
on the 24th. She spent the month of September making a shuttle from the
west coast to Finschhafen, New Guinea, and back. Upon her arrival at San
Diego on 7 October, the ship underwent alterations from the 8th through
the 26th. On 29 October, ADMIRALTY ISLANDS sailed for the Naval Air
Station, Alameda, Calif., to load Army aircraft and personnel for
transportation to New Guinea. She reached Finschhafen on 21 November,
unloaded, and continued on to Manus Island. After a brief pause at
Seeadler Harbor on 23 November, she touched at Pearl Harbor on 6 and 7
December before reaching San Diego a week later to load aircraft and
military personnel. She returned to Pearl Harbor on 24 December and on
the day after Christmas got underway for Guam.

ADMIRALTY ISLANDS reached Guam on 6 January 1945. She conducted
refresher aircraft landing operations off that island for two days, then
sailed for Pearl Harbor on the 10th. The carrier reached Hawaii on the
20th and began repairs to her main engine. After the yard work was
finished on 31 January she took on 61 aircraft, slated to replace combat
losses. ADMIRALTY ISLANDS left Pearl Harbor on 2 February to support
carrier operations in the campaign to seize Iwo Jima. After short stops
at Eniwetok and Ulithi, Admiralty Islands got underway on 16 February as
part of Task Group (TG) 50.8, the logistics support group for Task Force
(TF) 58. Throughout the rest of February ADMIRALTY ISLANDS launched
aircraft and provided replacement pilots to make good the carriers'
losses. She returned to Guam on 2 March for provisioning and to make
minor hull repairs. On 13 March, she again sailed with TG 50.8, this
time to support action against Okinawa. The carrier interrupted her
logistics supply role only for brief returns to Guam for replenishment.
On 18 April, ADMIRALTY ISLANDS suffered her first operational casualty.
A plane was lost over the side while attempting to land on her deck.
Neither the pilot nor the plane was recovered. The carrier returned to
Guam on 24 April to undergo repairs on her boilers two of which had
become inoperative by the time she arrived.

Her repairs completed, the escort carrier sailed on 14 May to rejoin TG
50.8 and operations off Okinawa. She delivered numerous aircraft to
American forces before arriving, via Guam, at Saipan, on 15 June. She
remained there for approximately two weeks before she received orders to
join TG 30.8 and support air and bombardment strikes on the Japanese
home islands. ADMIRALTY ISLANDS sustained another operational casualty
on 20 July, when a plane crashed while attempting to land. One man died
as a result of the ensuing fire. On 21 July, the ship was detached from
the 3d Fleet and headed for Guam, where she unloaded her cargo while
refueling for the trip back to the west coast. The carrier reached San
Diego on 11 August: then sailed to San Pedro to undergo repairs and
alterations. The majority of the alterations where canceled because of
Japan's surrender and, following completion of essential repairs,
ADMIRALTY ISLANDS sailed on 1 September to become a member of the
"Magic-Carpet" fleet for assistance in the return of American troops to
home. On 25 September, operational control of the carrier was
transferred to the Carrier Transport Squadron, Pacific Fleet.

"Magic-Carpet" duties occupied ADMIRALTY ISLANDS until she was
decommissioned on 24 April 1946. Her name was struck from the Navy list
on 8 May 1946, and the ship was sold to the Zidell Machinery and Supply
Co., Portland, Oreg., for scrapping.

ADMIRALTY ISLANDS won three battle stars for her World War II service.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:36:06 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-98 Kwajalein

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. III, 1968, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

KWAJALEIN (CVE-98)

The World War II battle of 31 January 1944, for KWAJALEIN Atoll in the
Marshall Islands.

dp. 7,800;
l. 512' 3";
b. 65';
ew. 108' 11";
dr. 22' 6";
s. 19 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5", 16 40-mm., 20 20-mm.;
cl. ANZIO

KWAJALEIN (CVE-98), formerly BUCARELI BAY, was launched 4 May 1944, by
the Kaiser Co., Inc., Vancouver, Wash., under a Maritime Commission
contract; sponsored by Mrs. Rudolf L. Johnson; acquired by the Navy 7
June 194, and commissioned the same day, Comdr. R. C. Warrack in
command.

After shakedown along the West Coast, KWAJALEIN cleared San Pedro 19
July 1944, bound for Espiritu Santo with passengers and a cargo of fuel
and planes. Arriving 3 August, she sailed 4 days later to transport
aircraft to Guam and pick up salvaged Japanese equipment for
intelligence studies in the United States.

Following repairs at San Diego, KWAJALEIN got underway 7 October for
operations as replenishment carrier. She loaded combat-ready aircraft at
Manus and sailed for Eniwetok 5 November to replenish the carriers of
Task Force 38 as they prepared for raids on Manila and the Visayas.
Continuing operations from Ulithi, KWAJALEIN furnished the big carriers
with the planes needed to drive the Japanese out of the Philippines.
During January 1945, replacement aircraft roared from her decks to Task
Force 38 flattops for strikes on enemy air bases on Formosa and the
China coast. KWAJALEIN returned San Diego 23 February for overhaul and
additional aircraft before resuming operations 9 March.

>From March to August KWAJALEIN carried aircraft on three cruises from
Pearl Harbor to the western Pacific keeping carrier-based air groups at
full strength for the massive carrier raids on the Japanese home
islands. With the cessation of hostilities 14 August 1946, the carrier
was assigned the task of returning Pacific veterans to the United
States. She made four cruises to the Pacific Islands before arriving San
Pedro 2 February 1946, from her final "Magic-Carpet" mission. On 23
April KWAJALEIN cleared San Pablo Bay for Mukilteo, Wash., arriving
there 3 days later. She decommissioned at Tacoma, Wash., 16 August 1946,
and joined the Pacific Reserve Fleet. Her name was struck from the Navy
List 1 April 1960, and she was scrapped in Japan the following year.

KWAJALEIN received two battle stars for World War II service.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:43:57 -0500
From:    COHEN <[email-masked]>
Subject: italian army

                    First I would like to thank Mike Yaklich for his
incredibly detailed response to my request for information about the
bersaglieri. Second, Joe Barone in response to messages on this subject
cautioned us not to confuse the bersaglieri with the Alpini. I'll bite.
Can Joe or anyone else give us a brief report on the Alpinis' role in WWII?
I assume they fought in Southern France in 1940 and in Albania and Greece
and perhaps in Yugoslavia But where else did they campaign? Third can anyone
give me more information about what happened to Italian troops in Greece,
Yugoslavia and other Italian-occupied territory after Italy left the war.
I read very brief reports indicating that in some places the Italians
surrendered peacefully to the Germans and were relatively well-treated. In
others they surrendered without a fight and were slaughtered by their former all
   ies and in still other places they fought the Germans and were overwhelmed
after heavy combat. Thanks in advance for any information.

                                     Harold Cohen
                                     Ithaca College

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:39:51 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: OOPS!  45,000 lb Bomb

     My apologies to anyone who may have been confused by this, but as I
     retrieved the photograph of the Bomb to scan, I noticed that I had
     mis-remembered the caption, it is a 45,000 lb bomb not 49,000.

     What's a couple of tons between friends?

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:57:30 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

>
>To answer your question. The "open" areas in which a bomb is to be
>detonated are never very far from populated areas. In a country as
>small as Germany and the area in which this bomb was found, this area
>around the airport is heavily populated. Shrapnel from the bomb
>landing in a populated area is a distinct possibility.
>
>Also to physically handle this bomb, i.e. move it elsewhere, runs the
>risk of explosion, as the jarring or transit of the bomb could cause
>it to explode.
>
Question, is the the occurrence of unexploded munitions being found as high
in Japan as it seems to be in Europe?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:59:15 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/03 Fri. Submarine CERO (SS-215) lands men and supplies on
           east coast of Luzon, P. I.
           Japanese aircraft attack air facilities on Saipan and
           Tinian, Marianas Islands. The enemy makes a series of
           strikes in this area from which heavy bombing
           missions against the Japanese home islands are
           launched.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Light cruiser RENO (CL-96), by submarine torpedo,
              Leyte area, P. I.,
              13 d. 46'N., 131 d. 27'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer AKIKAZE, by submarine PINTADO (SS-387),
              South China Sea,
              16 d. 48'N., 117 d. 17'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:20:47 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RIP

Bill Esders of VT-3 was a wonderful person, who was extremely courteous and
helpful to researchers. He will be greatly missed.
        Incidentally, the press release misstated the losses of the TBDs at
Midway. The correct numbers are:
    Committed       Shot Down        Ditched    Safe     Survivors
VT-3   12              10              2         -      2 pilots, 1 radioman
VT-6   14               9              1         4      5 pilots, 5 radiomen
VT-8   15              15              -         -      1 pilot,  0 radiomen
Total  41              34              3         4      8 pilots, 6 radiomen

The best account of Midway is Robert Cressman's A GLORIOUS PAGE IN OUR
HISTORY.
        To those awaiting my opinion on Frank Jack Fletcher and Raymond
Spruance at Midway, please accept my apologies. The flu and an important
project have taken my time. I'll post a reply the week of 14 November.
                           John Lundstrom

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:14:44 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  P-38 CBI & Alaska

More from AIRCAM No. 10  The P-38

The China-Burma-lndia Theater of Operations

The CBI was similar in some respects to the MTO in that the
Lightnings of the 10th Air Porce were transferred to the 14th Air
Force and both will be covered here as a single unit.  The 10th
started with three P-38 groups, the 33rd, 51st and 80th.

The 33rd was a seasoned group that had seen action in the Western
Desert flying P-40s. The 33rd moved to India in February of '44 and
joined the 10th Air Force.  They were equipped with P-38s. Missions
were flown in Burma and it was then re-assigned to the 14th but
continued to operate in the same area until the war ended.

The 51st arrived in India in March of '42 equipped with P-40s. It
moved to China in October of '43 and was then re-assigned to the 14th
and received some P-38s, using a mixture of Lightnings and Warhawks
until  reequipped with Mustangs in 1945. The assigned role of
tactical missions prevented it from rolling up a score of kills.

The 80th Group became operational in September 1943 flying a mixture
of P-38s and P-40s and was the only one of the three to remain with
the 10th the entire war. A DUC was awarded for their role in
preventing a large Japanese bomber force from raiding the vital oil
refinery in Assam, India, on 27 March, 1944, when they broke up
the formations and shot down most of the bombers.

Other areas in which the P-38 operated

The 11th Air Force in the Aleutians included one P-38 group, the
343rd but like so many others it also included a number of P-40s in
the earlier days. The group was under the command of Lt. Col. John S.
Chenault, the son of the famed AVG Flying Tiger Commander. Stationed
at Elmendorf Field they flew patrols, dive-bombed and strafed Jap
camps on Kiska and although their last combat mission was flown in
October of '43 they remained in Alaska until the war ended.

An oddity was the 32nd Group which operated some P-38s in the Panama
Canal Zone along with various other types from May of '42 until
November of '43. Though this group should have been a part of the 6th
Air Force it is not listed as such in the records.

The four other P-38 groups in existence were all assigned to the 4th
Air Force in the Western half of the U.S. as training groups. These
included the 360th, 473rd and 329th. Their duty was to train pilots
for combat units.

To sum up the Lightning, it enjoyed a highly successful career as a
fighter, saw service as the F4 and F5 in the photo recon version, was
modified to carry a bom- bardier in the so called droop snoot version
or a radar operator as a night fighter. They hung bombs on it to
make it a dive-bomber and level-bomber and even hung a couple of
torpedoes on one as an experiment.

It seems that the name the German ground pounders hung on the old
bird fit her best. " Der Gabelschwanz Teufel," "The Fork Tailed
Devil." As one ex-Lightning Ace put it, it was one " Helluva good
ship to fly and it did a Helluva good job."

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:25:17 -0500
From:    "Robin E. Simmons" <[email-masked]>
Subject: SUBSCRIPTION

subscribe  Robin Simmons  Florida State University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:18:06 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 7

        At the time of the armistice, "Impero" and "Cavour" were docked
in Trieste.  "Impero" was still under construction and a further 18 months
were needed to complete her.  "Cavour" was still undergoing repairs from
damage inflicted at Taranto, nearly three years before, and would need
another six months before she was completely repaired.  The Germans
captured these ships and suspended all work on them.  The Germans
commenced dismantling these ships in order to provide materials for
their war effort.  What remained of the hulls of "Cavour" and "Impero"
were sunk in Trieste by Allied bombers on February 15 and February 20,
1945, respectively.  "Cavour" was salvaged in 1946 and "Impero" in 1947
and they were scrapped.

        On September 23, 1943, an agreement of cooperation was reached
between the Allied and Italian navies concerning the fate of the Italian
fleet.  This was formulated by Admiral A.B. Cunningham, Chief of Allied
naval forces in the Mediterranean and Admiral Raffaele De Courten, Chief
of the Italian Naval Staff and Minister of the Navy.  The accord called
for the use of nearly all remaining warships, excluding the battleships,
against the Germans.  On October 13, 1943, Italy officially declared war
on Germany, formalizing the state of hostilities which had existed in
actuality since the armistice.  Except for the battleships, the units
returned to ports in Southern Italy and commenced operations.

        "Italia" (formerly "Littorio") and "Veneto" were interned in the
Great Bitter Lake, in the Suez Canal, with greatly reduced crews.  They
remained there, inactive, from October 1943 through February 1947.
"Cesare", "Doria", and "Duilio" remained in Malta with reduced crews
until June 1944 when they were returned to Italy.  "Cesare" remained
inactive in Taranto until the end of the war while the other two were
used on a limited basis, for training, in the waters of Southern Italy.

        The Italian government made vigorous efforts to have "Italia"
and "Veneto" returned to Italy and put back into service.  A proposal
was made to use the ships in the Pacific as carrier escorts.  However,
the Allies would not accede to such suggestions.  Instead the two ships
remained in Egypt, in the middle of the desert, like hostages, symbolizing
a vanquished nation.  They were finally allowed to sail home in February
1947, to face an even more denigrating fate.

        In 1944, the Russians had requested the immediate division of the
surviving Italian fleet, so they could take possession of their share.
While hostilities continued, this was not practical.  To placate their
ally, Great Britain and the US loaned a number of ships to the Soviets,
including the battleship, "Royal Sovereign", and the cruiser, "Milwaukee".
When the war was over, the Soviets again demanded the Italian ships due
them.

        Italy was obliged to sign a peace agreement in Paris on February
10, 1947.  This granted the "Cesare" (and other small units) to the Soviets,
"Veneto" to Britain, and "Italia" to the US.  "Doria" and "Duilio" were
to remain part of a reduced Italian Fleet.

        Separately negotiating with the countries in question, Italy
obtained renunciation of the ceding of the ships to the US and Britain
and a reduction in the number of ships assigned to France, which was
not scheduled to receive any battleships.  However, the ships in question
were to be scrapped.

        The "Cesare" was overhauled and decommissioned.  Given the number
Z-11, and crewed by and sailing under the flag of the Italian Merchant
Marine, the ship was transferred to the Soviet Union, at Valone, Albania,
on February 6, 1949.  The "Cesare" was renamed "Novorossik" in Soviet
service and was used as a training ship.  It is believed that she was
sunk in October, 1955, following the detonation of a mine.

        Despite Italian efforts to procrastinate on scrapping her modern
battleships until the clause in the treaty lapsed, "Veneto" and "Italia"
had their 15-inch guns sheared off and their machinery was destroyed.
These once-potent ships remained in this forlorn state for some years,
until October 1955, when they were scrapped.

        "Doria" and "Duilio" were of limited value due to their age and
design shortcomings.  They were used as training ships and alternated
as the flagship of the commander-in-chief of the Italian Naval Squadron.
"Duilio" left active service in 1953 and was laid up at La Spezia.  "Doria"
was based at Taranto and was used for some years as a training and barrack
ship for the local naval school.  "Duilio" was scrapped between 1957-1958
and "Doria" between 1961-1962.  With their demise, the Italian battleship
passed into history.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Matelin: They think you're General DeGaulle.
General: DeGaulle? He's not even in this war!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:44:40 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Tony Schuler wrote:

> >  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
> >and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
> >the movie, though.
>
> Dan,
>
> I think the movie you are referring to is "The Enemy Below." Here a couple
> of short reviews of the movie. It won an Oscar for special effects.
>

This may be a moot point by now, but the submarine thriller that Richard
Widmark starred in was "The Bedford Incident".  Different time, different
place, but similar plot.  Very different ending, though.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 12:45:51 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: italian army

To Harold Cohen:  I'll be happy to post some info on the alpini, but it
will take some time till I'm free to do so.  So please be patient and I'll
try to help.  I could also post on the Italian forces post-armistice, but
I'd have to research that a little... a few good titles that deal with the
latter topic are Melton Davis: "Who Defends Rome?" which gives an incomplete
but informative summary of Italian units east of Italy in Sept '43.  Also
Badoglio in "Italy In The Second World War" touches on some units.  Off the
top of my head, some of the more noteworthy episodes were the execution of
the Acqui Division on Corfu and Cephalonia, some 8400 Italian soldiers shot
by the Germans (the orders allegedly came down from Bormann's intention to
make an example)-- the division commander, General Gandini, who had been a
staff liason officer in many meetings with the Germans while the two countries
were still allied, threw his iron cross at the feet of his firing squad.
The Italians in Split rose up against the Germans, and there was also the
case of the Taurinense alpini division and the Venezia infantry division,
which fought off the Germans and joined Tito's partisans as the Italian
Garibaldi division.  And the Italian garrison of Leros endured a long aerial
bombardment reminiscent of Malta before being overrun by a landing which
included a parachute drop-- a good description of the Leros battle (including
comments on the lack of appreciation of Italian efforts by the British) is in
Marc-Antonio Bragadin's "The Italian Navy In World War 2".  Well, I'm pushing
my luck by typing this while allegedly working...I'll send the alpini stuff
later today if no-one beats me to it.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 12:49:45 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: TECH ETO logistics

On October 13 Sidney Kitchel asked for references about
logistics in the ETO.  The following reference just came
across my desk in a publisher's catalog:

Waddell, Steve R.  UNITED STATES ARMY LOGISTICS:
  THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN, 1944.  Westport, CN:
  Greenwood Press, 1994.  208pp.  $55.00.
  Waddell is an asst. prof. of history at
  the US Military Academy.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:43:42 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

>
> > The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
> > of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
> > a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)
>
> The Japanese built an improved version of the model 14, Kawasaki Ki.56
> 'Thalia', that was bigger and lighter --- not really an 18, but along the
> same lines. The license-built Lockheed 14 was known as the Tachikawa LO
> 'Thelma'.
>

It seems that the Japanese produced almost direct copies of some
successful foreign aircraft such as the Lodestar and C-47.  I
have also read of a Soviet version of the B-29 which entered service
at the very end of WWII and served well into the 1950's.  In this
case they were built from a friendly's aircraft and not an opponent's
- that B-29 had landed in Soviet territory and was interned.  I also
seem to remember that the engines in the first Post-War jet MiG's
were based on a British Meteor that was touring the USSR immediately
after WWII and "disappeared."

I'm all for utilizing new technology from whatever the source but an
exact copy could get confusing with front-line pilots and AA people.

Does anyone have any numbers/specifics of how many countries during
the war produced direct copies of other countries' crashed aircraft
(or parts) without permission or license?

Just wondering....

patrick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:00:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

Hello, Ron!

I take it that this question is directed to me as I mailed you the
other.

> Question, is the the occurrence of unexploded munitions being found as high
> in Japan as it seems to be in Europe?

    I don't know about that. I am, however, familiar with Germany. It
seems that every time a construction project gets underway,
particularly in areas that heretofore were forest areas, etc, some
sort of unexploded ordnance is found. There are many such occurrences
each year of the explosion of newly-found ordnance left over from
WWII. I would bet that there isn't a lot of difference, as a lot of
bombs were dropped on Japan, as you well know. I am certain that the
Air Force, even then, had a very good idea as to how many of those
bombs dropped failed to explode, and I would dare say that similar
occurrences in the frequency I know exists to this day in Germany
would apply to Japan as well.

    Thanks for the note.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:07:22 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: 44,000 lb bomb

Sorry it took so long to get an answer on the big bomb, but I
couldn't find the bloody reference - and I know better than to
pitch in this game without a cup.

Source: Army Green book series
The Ordnance Department: Planning Munitions for War, 1955
Chapter XVII - Bombs, p 471.
 A discussion of the 44,000 pound bomb. 17,600 pounds of the bomb
was high explosive, in this case tritonal. Total length of the bomb
was 322 inches, 122 inches of this length was the tail assembly.
  Resembled the Tallboy and Grand Slam. Discussion goes on to say
that several were ready by V-J Day and were available for testing
whenever the B-36 bomber became available.  The bomb also had an
air arming fuze, as well as fin assemblies of steel rather than aluminum.
The article goes on to say that the largest bombs dropped by the AAF in
WWII were 4000 lb. The British had the largest bomb used in the war,
the 22,000 lb. Grand Slam.

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge, QASAS                                                        *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosive Safety (USATCES)                  *
* Explosive Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                  *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-8769  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 13:49:18 PST
From:    Henry Herz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

> Does anyone have any numbers/specifics of how many countries during
> the war produced direct copies of other countries' crashed aircraft
> (or parts) without permission or license?

Are you also interested in cases where captured foreign hardware was simply used
as is?  I imagine there are many many instances of this. I heard that, at one
point, 75% of the Afrika Korps' logistical transport was captured Allied
equipment. I suspect the Germans captured Russian aircraft in 1941 (at least),
but don't know if they chose to use them in combat.  The modern analogs are the
Israeli army's surprisingly large fleet of T-62, T-55, (and at one point
T-34/85) tanks, and Vietnam's fleet of captured US helicopters, tanks, and
M-113s.

How about when portions of captured hardware were directly integrated within a
weapon system?  The Germans mounted a Czech 76mm tank cannon into their Marder
(I think) tank destroyer.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:16:51 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

> I have also read of a Soviet version of the B-29 which entered
> service at the very end of WWII and served well into the 1950's.
>
> patrick
> [email-masked]

Funny thing about that B-29, it had suffered some battle damage and
was repaired in theatre.  The Soviet copies all had the same repairs
to the fuselage.  Talk about a family resemblance!!!

Later the Russians got a nice new B-29 with newer engines and later
modifications but decided not to incorporate them because they
thought it was a US trick to make them mess up their proven design.
I forget how the new B-29 ended up in their hands but I think it was
a Korean War era version.  I'm not an aviation guy but I remember
this little story as an amusing insight into the Soviet mind.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:00:17 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pacific Books

John Costello wrote an earlier book on the war in the Pacific about a
dozen years ago.  I found it interesting but full of factual errors
as well as garbled names (Japanese names were misspelled more often
than not) and incorrect unit designations (Costello had the 3rd Marine
Division and the 31st U.S army division defending the Philippines in
1941, and incredibly for a British writer the"Royal West Kent Rifle
Brigade" in Burma! Let's hope the  new book is better.
Jim Curry

On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Jim Adams wrote:

> A new book due out next week is by John Costello (author of *The Pacific
> War 1941-1945*, contributor to *"And I Was There"*, and others).  It is
> titled *Days of INFAMY*. It is about the other day of infamy on Dec 7th,
> 1941, the attack on the Phillipines and its relationship to Pearl Harbor.
>
> Have not read it yet, but John Costello was here last week to tell our
> staff and visitors about it.  He is highly critical of MacArthur and his
> loss of the Phillipines that day.  He points out how Admiral Kimmel and
> General Short were held accountable for their "negligience" at Pearl
> Harbor, but how MacArthur skated out of any responsibility for the loss
> that he  was responsiible for on the same day, and he had the advance
> warning.  The Philippines were not attacked for several hours later, and
> MacArthur was fully aware that Pearl Harbor had been attacked.  No alert.
>
> This book apparently takes a much more Pacific wide perspective on the
> DAy of Infamy and reminds that it was not just Pearl harbor.  After
> talking to Costello I am very much looking forward to reading this book.
> He is planning on returning to Pearl Harbor for Dec 7th this year and
> will do book signings and talks.
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
> Cultural Resource Manager
> USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
> 1 Arizona Memorial Place
> Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
> ****************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:01:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  Misc Aircraft Information

    Emmanuel,

    My source for those production numbers was the Rand McNally
    Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft 1914-1980

    Which is also the source for the following figures, so take them with a
    grain of salt, your mileage may vary:

                          Loaded     Maximum        Range   Maximum
    A/C   Span   Length   Weight     Speed (MPH)    Miles   Passengers

    C47   95'6'  63'4"    26,000lb     230          1,600    28
    C56   65'8"  49'10"   17,500lb     253          1,600    17
    C45   47'8"  34'3"     8,727lb     215            700     8
    C54  117'6"  93'10"   62,600lb     265          3,900    50
    C46  108'1"  76'4"    56,000lb     269          1,200    50
    C69  123'0"  95'2"    72,000lb     330          2,400    60
    (Constellation)

    The following is from JANES Fighting Aircraft of WW-II

    "The B-32 was the last U.S. heavy bomber to go into action in the war.
    Aircraft of this type flying a score or so of sorties before Japan
    surrendered."

    "Although the B-32 was designed to the same specification as the B-29
    Super Fortress and the prototypes of both aircraft were flying at the
    same time, considerably more development was necessary with the B-32"

   NOTE: I find the last comment intriguing, since the B-32 was the low
    tech backup to the B-29, bought as insurance against the combination of
    state of the art plus attributes in the B-29 not working out.

    Steve New
    [email-masked]
    The purpose of science is to develop a better mouse trap.
    The purpose of nature is to develop a better mouse.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 02:08:06 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Patrick D Marsden wrote:

> - that B-29 had landed in Soviet territory and was interned.  I also
> seem to remember that the engines in the first Post-War jet MiG's
> were based on a British Meteor that was touring the USSR immediately
> after WWII and "disappeared."

No, no such 'mysterious disappearances' were required --- it was all done
quite legally. To the amazement of Stalin, the British (Labour) government
of the time was willing to sell the latest British jet engines to the
USSR. That's why the MiG-15 and its contemporaries had copies of British
engines. So did many of their US counterparts, BTW.

> Does anyone have any numbers/specifics of how many countries during
> the war produced direct copies of other countries' crashed aircraft
> (or parts) without permission or license?

The B-29 is the only that I know of that was copied from aircraft captured
in WWII. There were more examples in WWI: the Germans copied the
Nieuport 11, and the Russians the Albatros C.  There is usually little
advantage in reverse-engineering captured aircraft; both parties are
likely to have more advanced aircraft on the drawing board, and the
changes that have to be made to adapt the design to the own production
techniques are too important. Other aircraft that were copied, such as the
Lockheed 14 (Japan), DC-3 (Japan and USSR) and PBY Catalina (USSR),
benefitted from license agreements that included as set of drawings. There
was of course the Japanese copy of the Me 163, were a license was agreed
on, but the drawings were lost underway.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s strike the airfield, buildings, and
offshore shipping at Suribachi and Kurabu on Paramushiru Island.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: The first report is received of a Japanese balloon SW of
San Pedro, California; the US Navy recovers some apparatus, envelope, and
rigging.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 34 P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s
attack road traffic and other targets of opportunity in the Mangshih and
Lungling areas; 4 P-38s bomb the pass near Menghsu, blocking the highway.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 17 P-47s pound Shwebo
Airfield while 6 others bomb stores of guns and ammunition at Mong Yaw.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 439th Troop
Carrier Group and the 93d Troop Carrier Squadron move from Lonray to
Chateaudun with C-47s; the 95th, 96th and 97th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 440th
Troop Carrier Group, move from Le Mans to Orleans with C-47s; the 99th Troop
Carrier Squadron, 441st Troop Carrier Group, moves from St Marceau to Dreux
with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 700: 1,160 bombers and 890 fighters are dispatched in 6 forces to
make PFF attacks on the oil industry in W Germany; 5 bombers and 2 fighters
are lost:
  1. 228 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil plant at Neunkirchen (151);
secondary targets hit are the marshalling yards at Saarbrucken (35) and
Neunkirchen (13); 5 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 76 of 77 P-47s
and 50 Ninth AF P-51s without loss.
  2. 210 of 222 B-24s hit the Misburg oil plant at Hannover; 3 B-24s are lost
and 93 damaged; 28 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 371 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 257 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg oil plant at Hamburg (238);
targets of opportunity are the aviation industry at Nordholz (9) and other
(2); 9 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 124 of 139 P-51s; they claim
0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond
repair.
  4. 186 of 193 B-17s hit the Rhenania oil plant at Hamburg; 2 others hit
targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 61 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and
18 MIA. Escort is provided by 110 P-51s without loss.
  5. 91 of 119 B-17s hit the Welhun oil plant at Bottrop; 26 others hit the
secondary, the marshalling yard at Hamm; 24 B-17s are damaged. Escort is
provided by 37 of 40 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost.
  6. 133 of 141 B-24s hit Gelsenkirchen/Nordstern without loss. Escort is
provided by 50 of 54 P-47s.
  Mission 701: 3 B-17s and 6 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands
and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 218 B-26s and A-20s hit
the Trier ordnance depot, Baumholder, and Eschweiler gun positions; fighters
escort the 9th Bombardment Division, attack railroads, bridges, and other
targets, and support the US XIX Corps in the Aachen area. In France, the
556th, 557th, 558th and 559th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 387th
Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Chateaudun to Clastres with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 715 B-17s and B-24s with
fighter escorts pound oil storage at Regensburg and marshalling yards at
Munich and Augsburg, Germany, the main marshalling yard and a benzol plant at
Linz, Austria, a troop concentration at Podgorica, Yugoslavia, as well as
attacking several alternate targets and scattered targets of opportunity
including marshalling yards at Wels and Kufstein, Austria, Erding Airfield,
Germany, railroad targets in and near Rosenheim, Germany, and the towns of
Strass and Muhldorf, Austria.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, 200o+ B-25s and B-26s of
the 42d Bombardment Wing (Medium) hit railway and road bridges in the Brenner
Pass; 130+ B-25s of the 57th Bombardment Wing strike communications in the W
Po Valley, cutting at least 4 bridges; fighters and fighter-bombers of XXII
Tactical Air Command concentrate on communications targets and trains in the
Po Valley and defenses in the battle area S of Bologna; some XXII Tactical
Air Command aircraft hit guns on the N Italian coast, some hit a rocket
launching site and communications N of battle area, and 4 P-47s bomb a Milan
hotel where Adolf Hitler is rumored to be staying.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 18 Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima
Island airfields; 2 others, on shipping reconnaissance, bomb Naha Jima.  2
B-24s on armed reconnaissance from Guam Island bomb Marcus Island. 16 P-47s
bomb landing strip on Pagan Island. The 316th Troop Carrier Squadron, VI Air
Service Area Command, arrives at Kahuku AAB, Hawaii from the US with C-47s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s again pound Alicante Airfield on Negros Island; the 8th
Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group,
arrives at Dulag, Leyte Island from Biak Island with F-5s. The detachment of
the 17th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 4th Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), ceases operating from Sansapor, New Guinea with F-5s and
returns to base on Morotai Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

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|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
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04/0112Z NOV

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Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:19:46 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO"The big what"

Cassady- Rudi hasn't responded yet, so perhaps I can fill this out.
Some German historians have contended that the Red Army was forward
deployed in 1941 as a prelude to a Russian assault on Germany. If you
examine the dispositions of the Red Army, particularly in the Western
Special District, facing Poland, this seems very plausible. But there
are problems with the argument that most specialists on the Soviets             believe make it untenable, at least in terms of any Soviet action               prior to mid-1942 (at the earliest). First, the Western Special District
forces were largely brand new and unequipped. Of the 303 Red Army divisions
at the time of Barbarossa, about 100 had been formed between February and
June 1941. On average, the divisions of the district had about 55% of their
officers and 35% of their non-coms, and these men were struggling with
drafts of raw recruits who were often non-Russian speakers only days
"off the farm." There were few trucks, little signal equipment, and
no AT ammunition for the new tanks. Overall, when the Germans struck,
Soviet infantry divisions were at 60% of their strength and two-thirds
of the tank park was so badly maintained it was unfit for sustained ops.
This data is from various Soviet sources over the last ten years, and it
suggests that any use of map dispositions is little more than pushing
flags around. Second, Stalin and the Stavka expected the major German blow
to fall in the Ukraine, and both the best and largest concentrations of
Soviet forces were here. But the Kiev Special District Forces were
arranged in a much more defensive style echelon structure. It is possible
Stalin considered a preemptive strike, and we can hope new data on this         may come out now that some archives are being opened, but his forces were       at least a year and more like eighteen months away from even thinking
about it. It is also possible that, expecting the German concentration
against the Ukraine, the Stavka deployed its forces so that it could
absorb that blow while the forward deployed units in the Western
Special District could strike the German advance in the flank and rear,
in effect a "swinging door" from the north that would trap the Wehrmacht
in the Balkans.

Hope this helps,

Henry Sirotin

PS-for those who expected another love letter on the Wehrmacht from me in
this subject heading, it will be coming. We had computer glitches here over
weekend, and I want to gather the responses I may have missed. I am beginning
to feel like Sakai Saburo in the midst of all those Hellcats, but it is fun,
and I may even explain my motivation :-)

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:30:59 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: alpini in WW2

        OK, here goes with a quick battle history of the Italian alpini
mountain troops in World War 2: (I'll skip the prior history stuff since you
only wanted to know the WW2 combat history)
        Italy entered the war in June 1940 with five operational alpini
divisions (the Giulia, Cuneense, Taurinense, Tridentina, and Pusteria
Divisions).  A sixth alpini division, the Alpi Graie Division, did not become
operational until mid-1943.  Alpini divisions were, at least on paper,
extremely strong numerically, with a t/o strength of 16,000 men.  Individual
rifle companies had up to 340 men at full strength, although actual units in
the field seldom came close to these target figures-- a little over 10,000 men
was the norm for "full-strength" alpini divisions in actuality.  Their quality
was excellent, however, with manpower drawn from rugged mountain regions where
the men were already accustomed to moving, living, and working in tough terrain
and weather, training at high altitudes which was (and still is, according to a
documentary I recently saw on A&E) among the toughest to be found anywhere, and
the prestige of an elite arm, which among other things gave them the pick of
the best field-level officers (Air Marshal Italo Balbo, for example, the
initial Italian commander in North Africa and the highest-ranking officer in
the Regia Aeronautica, had been an alpini lieutenant in WWI).  Alpini divisions
were organized on the normal "binario" system, with two alpini regiments and an
artillery regiment (24 75-mm mountain howitzers) that split into two "groups"
to facilitate the formation of independent battlegroups based on one alpini
regt and one arty group.  Alpini battalions were also configured with a high
ratio of support weapons (at least in contrast to the normal Italian infantry),
i.e., heavy machinegun platoons in each company and flamethrower detachments at
battalion and regimental level.  Organization was undertaken in this manner
because it was recognized that smaller units might become isolated and forced
to fight independently due to the nature of operations in mountainous terrain.
Alpini divisions also in general had fairly large reserves of trained manpower
(and a strong veterans organization) on which to draw for replacements.
        An alpini battlegroup (sorry, in this case I don't know from what
division) attacked the Little St Bernard Pass during the brief Italian invasion
of France in June 1940, but made almost no headway, even when L3 light tanks of
the Littorio Division were brought up in support.
        As you indicated, the Greek/Albanian theatre was a major sphere of
action for the alpini.  In the initial invasion of 10/28/40, the Giulia
Division was assigned the prominent role of guarding the flanks of the main
operation in the Epirus region by advancing through the Pindus mountains
further north and securing the pass at Metsovon (one of only two good routes
into the Epirus from the rest of Greece).  They made the deepest penetration of
any Italian unit in this initial phase, advancing about 35 miles into Greece
and coming almost within sight of the Metsovon pass, brushing aside the weak
resistance of Greek forces amounting to only one battalion.  However, this
Italian thrust was doomed to failure, in part because of both strategic and
tactical errors (the strategic mistake was to advance one division virtually
unsupported so far into enemy territory; the tactical errors were 1. the
dividing of the division into two "tactical groups," each built around one
regiment, and having these groups advance in separate columns with the huge
massif of Mt Smolika between them; and, 2. the decision, no doubt dictated by
having their men spread too thin, to advance through the valleys while not
bothering to secure the adjacent peaks.).  The Greeks quickly concentrated two
full divisions and one brigade from their reserve, and launched an encircling
counterattack against the Giulia.  The division had already been out of touch
with HQ for five days-- bad weather playing havoc both with radio transmissions
and with reconnaisance flights sent to locate them-- when the Greeks struck
(aided in at least one case by local civilians who helped drag machineguns and
ammo up the hills: the Greeks still used the bayonet charge a lot, but they
liked to improve their odds by attacking from unexpected directions, and almost
always attacked downhill).  The Giulia's retreat was a nightmare, almost all of
it along narrow paths under direct fire from Greek machineguns and mountain
guns on the heights, all while fighting off daily bayonet charges.  In one
action the Conegliano artillery group particularly distinguished itself by
holding back the enemy for seven hours at almost point-blank range, suffering
heavy casualties in the process, until at last the Italian gunners ran out of
ammunition (NOTE: the alpini artillery units were considered an elite within an
elite, and were particularly adept at transporting their guns over all kinds of
terrain and bringing them into action quickly).  After ten days, most of the
division (under General Mario Girotti) was able to reach the Albanian border,
but casualties were at least 20% including many prisoners who had been cut off.
(in the 8th Alpini Regt, which had the hardest time, they were considerably
higher).
        The Giulia got no respite, because the newly brought-up Bari infantry
division in the adjacent sector gave way, and the Giulia had to be sent right
back into the line, now holding the vital bridge at Perati on the frontier.
Girotti wanted to pull back behind the river, but higher HQ's ordered him to
keep one battalion on the other side.  This was attacked by much stronger Greek
forces on Nov 20 and suffered heavily.  Still, the Giulia held its side of the
river line, and in the growing catastrophe of the Greek counteroffensive now
fighting its way into Albania the division was actually considered one of the
most reliable formations available by the Italian command.  Giulia Div. was
heavily involved in the fighting for Klissoura in early January, where it again
was forced to give ground (but without sullying the unit's reputation in the
eyes of the Italian high command).  By Jan 15 the division, which had started
the invasion two months earlier with 10,800 men and 20 75-mm guns, was down to
an effective strength of 1,000 men with 15 workable machineguns and five
mortars.  At this juncture it was recognized as imperative that the remains of
the Giulia be withdrawn for rest and reorganization, and after the Klissoura
battle ended this was done.  Among other things, the Giulia had suffered 60
separate Greek attacks in as many days, and turned back the vast majority (or
at least inflicted delays and losses in a fighting retreat).
        Meanwhile, more alpini units were being hurriedly shipped to the
Albanian front.  The Tridentina's 5th Alpini Regt was among the first to arrive
(mid November), and was rapidly dispatched to the Mt. Tomorit area.  It too was
forced to retreat after tough fighting, and when relieved barely three weeks
later was severely depleted.  One officer in the relieving Cuneense Division
relates how he encountered a lieutenant of the 5th Alpini with about 40 men,
and asked if that was his platoon.  "No," the man replied, "its the Edolo
Battalion."  About half a mile up the trail the same officer encountered the
Edolo Battalion's commander, Lt-Col. Riveira, who had taken two machinegun
bullets in the stomach and could go no further.  By early December both the
Pusteria and the Cuneense Divisions were also arriving in Albania.  One
regiment of the Cuneense was dispatched to the sector of the front shielding
the important port of Valona, where it formed the nucleous of a "Special Alpini
Division" as part of General Messe's "Special Army Corps," and helped hold that
part of the front securely for the rest of the campaign.  The other regiment of
the Cuneense went to relieve the Tridentina's 5th Alpini Regt near Mt Tomorit.
(Eventually the 5th Alpini recovered, and were sent back into the line in early
'41: despite unfavorable positions-- they held the bottom of the slope, the
Greeks held the summit-- they maintained their positions on the Guri i Topit
until the fighting ended).
        The Pusteria Division established one of the finest combat records of
the alpini in the Greek campaign.  On Dec 8th Col. Psaro, commander of the
division's 7th Alpini Regt, was killed while leading a successful counterattack
with two battalions to close a breech in the lines near the Qafa Gallina.
Wherever the Pusteria fought, the lines were usually held.  During the
difficult winter, with temperatures often 15 to 20 degrees below zero in the
windy mountain passes, the alpini proved adept at surviving, often through some
picturesque expedients.  When their transport pack mules died, the alpini would
split their skulls with an axe and use the warm brains as a helmet liner.
Since the paint on the Italian steel helmets was often too shiny, men would
urinate on the helmets and then smear them with mud, making a kind of instant
stucco camouflage (good thing Italian troops often received a regular eau de
cologne ration, huh?? actually, though, in the winter of 40-41 in Albania the
Italians received damn little of anything, even food or ammo).  Sentries went
out with a wire tied to them, the other men in the dugout tugging on the wire
from time to time to make sure the man on watch didn't fall asleep and freeze
to death.  Etc, etc...  I should also mention the exploits of the 300-man Monte
Cervino ski unit, which, in the words of historian Mario Cervi (from whose work
"The Hollow Legions" much of the above was taken), "performed miracles" in
patrolling the snowy heights of the extensive no mans land.  The brutal winter
and more or less continuous fighting took its toll on officers as well as men.
For instance, Col. Tavoni, commander of the Giulia's 9th Alpini Regt, was
killed in action the day after Christmas 1940.
        Speaking of the Giulia Division, by Feb '41 it had been restored to a
strength of 350 officers and 10,000 men, and was put back in the line again,
this time on the Golico heights, on the south end of the Vojussa river valley,
where the Greeks were making their last major offensive push (an effort which
continued simultaneously with the Italian spring offensive a little to the
north in early March).  Again the Giulia held its ground, and again its
casualties were far from light.  Meanwhile, on March 9th, with Mussolini
present in person, the Italians began their big spring offensive toward the
Desnizza river, over the slopes of the Mt Trebessina massif.  Only one Italian
unit actually captured a defended objective in this futile (and costly)
enterprise-- the Pusteria Division's 11th Alpini Regt managed on the second day
to secure the peak of Mali Spadarit, guarding the north flank of the Italian
assault.  Greek counterattacks resulting in bitter close combat with bayonets
and hand grenades soon forced the alpini back, but even so (and despite being
exposed by the failure of units on their flanks to make similar progress) the
11th Regt held advanced positions near the top against further heavy pressure
until the offensive was called off.
        The German invasion of Greece in early April '41 finally compelled the
Greeks to retreat, although even then their rearguards fought stubbornly
against the Italians.  Tridentina and Pusteria Divisions led the Italian
advance in the sectors of their respective armies during this final phase.
One other incident of note regarding the Alpini in Greece.  I've seen it
mentioned in a few books that during the short Yugoslav campaign there was only
one area where the Yugoslavian Army actually advanced-- against the Italians in
Albania.  Wanna know what became of that advance??  It was counterattacked by
the alpini of the Cuneense Division, who won a complete victory, capturing over
1,500 prisoners (including three generals) and taking the town of Dibra on the
Yugoslav side of the border before the fighting ended.  Major Annoni, the
popular commander of the Mondovi Battalion, was among those who died in this
battle.
        I didn't mention the Taurinese Division in Albania, but they fought
there too, though not as a complete division, or even as complete regiments.
The Italian logistical support of the Greek campaign, at least until mid-Jan
'41, was one of the worst administrative nightmares imaginable.  The Italian
Navy was only informed of the impending campaign at the last moment.  Italian
ships were loaded for transport efficiency, rather than "assault loaded," with
the items needed immediately ready to be off-loaded at once.  Thus heavy
equipment, extra rations, ammo, blankets, transport animals, medical supplies,
etc, all of which were often in the bottom holds, was not readily available.
The continual state of crisis at the front made the Italians send units off to
patch holes almost as soon as they landed, with the result the heavy stuff so
necessary to combat efficiency was more often than not left behind.  Likewise,
the Italians usually did not wait for entire regiments and divisions to be
landed and assembled before being dispatched to the front.  Usually individual
battalions were sent off as soon as they hit dry land.  This resulted in the
Italian forces in Albania having a significant advantage on paper, but where
the actual fighting was being done they were more often than not both
outnumbered and outgunned by their Greek adversaries-- at least until the
middle of Feb '41.  At least two battalions of the Taurinense Division fought
in Albania but were employed piecemeal in the fashion described.
        After the Greek campaign the alpini saw further significant action in
two theatres, Yugoslavia and Russia.  The Pusteria and Taurinense Divisions
joined the bitter war against the partisans in Yugoslavia.  Pusteria scored a
major success in December '41 when partisans attacked its HQ at Plevlja in
Montenegro.  The partisans initially had a numerical advantage of at least
three to one (units of Pusteria actually in the town when the fighting started,
aside from HQ elements, consisted of parts of two alpini battalions, two
batteries of mountain arty, one mortar company, and a few engineers).  The
partisan attack came on a cold, moonless night, but in bitter fighting the
alpini managed to hold the town (one group cut off in the police station
defended themselves with rifle butts in hand-to-hand combat), counterattacking
house-to-house with grenades, and eventually evicting the last partisan
infiltrators with point-blank cannon fire.  Partisan losses have been put as
high as 3,000 men by Yugoslav sources (Tito makes it 1,200), and were certainly
high enough to cause bitter rifts between the Communist partisans and the
ex-royalist officers who were co-operating with them in Montenegro at this time
(each side blaming the other for the high losses).  Total Italian casualties
were 452 men.  BTW, the commander of the Pusteria at this time was Gen.
Giovanni Esposito (General De Cia had commanded the division against Greece),
later winner of the Medaglia D'Oro, Italy's highest decoration.  Pusteria took
part in the second of the seven major German-led anti-partisan offensives in
Yugoslavia (Jan-Feb '42: it was brought to a premature halt by severe weather
and accomplished little).  Both Pusteria and Taurinense participated in the
"Third Offensive" (April-June '42), and Taurinense also collaborated in the
"Fifth Offensive" (May-June '43), the one which came the closest to wiping out
Tito's central partisan force.  After the Italian surrender in Sept '43, the
Taurinense Division managed to survive attacks by the Germans in its sector.
Under General Lorenzo Vivalda, Taurinense Div then joined the partisans,
combining with the Venezia infantry division (another unit with a fine combat
record in Greece and Yugoslavia-- possibly the best regular infantry division
in the Italian army based on its fighting history in the war) to form the
Italian Garibaldi Division.  This unit was subsequently mentioned repeatedly in
partisan communiques for its successes against the Germans in '44.
        Meanwhile, a new Alpini Corps consisting of the Giulia, Cuneense, and
Tridentina Divisions was sent to Russia in the summer of '42 as part of the
Italian 8th Army.  Its commander was General Gabriele Nasci (not to be confused
with Gen. G. Nasi, a commander in East Africa), formerly Inspector of Alpini.
When the Soviet counteroffensive shattered the Italian 8th Army on the Don
north of Stalingrad in Dec '42, the Alpini Corps, alone among the Italian
formations, held its positions north of the main breakthrough area.  The alpini
did not retreat until mid-January, when the Hungarian 2nd Army to the north of
them had also been swept away by new Russian assaults, leaving the Italian
mountain troops virtually surrounded.  They managed to fight their way back,
joining the rest of 8th Army after a 300-mile retreat in temperatures that
reached 30 below (the alpini were at least the best-equipped Italian forces in
terms of proper attire for cold weather, due to their specialty).  However,
they suffered severely in this fighting retreat.  Giulia Division, which had
departed for the eastern front with its full 16,000 men and 3,200 mules (now
under command of Gen. Bedogni), returned to Italy less than a year later with
3,200 men and 40 mules!!  After this ordeal the divisions of the Alpini Corps
still had not regained their combat efficiency when Italy surrendered in Sept
'43.  After the overthrow of Mussolini, the Giulia was dispatched to the
Brenner Pass to guard against a potential German occupation, but was so
understrength it was unready to fight, and so short of ammunition that its
riflemen arrived with an average of less than two six-shot clips apiece.
        The Alpi Graie Division, the newest alpini unit, did however fight the
Germans in Sept '43.  Under General Mario Gorlier, it put up a tough two-day
fight in the area of La Spezia before joining the general surrender of the
Italian forces in northern Italy.
        That about wraps it up for the organized alpini in the war.  The first
units to see combat with the "Co-Belligerent" forces fighting alongside the
Allies was a motorized combat group of about 2,500 men, drawn solely from the
elite branches of the Italian forces-- alpini, bersaglieri, and artillery.
This unit saw its first action near Mt Longo in Dec '43.  It attacked and
captured hills dominating the Mignano Gap, one of the best routes north up the
Italian peninsula, which for some reason the Allied command assumed to be
lightly guarded.  In fact, the elite Luftwaffe Hermann Goering panzer division
was launched in an immediate counterattack against the Italians.  They held off
the first attacks, even when heavy SP guns were brought up against the
armor-less Italians, but a renewed attack the next day led to a German success
and a panic among some of the Italian troops.  However, about a week later the
Italians returned to the line (by now it was mostly bersaglieri doing the
fighting) and captured and held another hill in the same area.
        Given the length of this post I think I'll pass on info about the
Italian forces outside Italy in Sept '43.  My fingers are tired.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:33:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE [GEN] Copied Aircraft

    I would expect that the most confusion would be where the same airframe
    was being used by both sides in a conflict.  For example, the P40Es
    that the Japanese captured in the Phillipines and brought home to the
    Home Islands for air defense duties would never have bothered a P51 or
    F6F pilot, because they knew none of our P40s could be there.  The same
    would be true for the F4F pilots who encountered Vichy P36s during
    operation torch.

    Real confusion was possible during the Spanish Civil War, where both
    sides were flying Hawker "Spanish" Furies and Polikarpov I-16s.

    During the Russo/Finnish fighting, both sides flew the Polikarpov, and
    also Hawker Hurricanes, the Finns having captured both from the
    Soviets.

    Later, after the 1943 Italian Armistice, both the "Allied" Italians and
    their "Axis" counterparts were flying MC 202s and MC 205s against each
    other.

    The most confusing skies, however, must have been over Switzerland.  It
    didn't matter what side you were on, you could be intercepted by a
    BF109, an MS410, or even a P51.  I guess once you saw those bright red
    and white stripes all over your opponent you knew he had the right of
    way.

    Cheers

    Steve New
    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:35:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  44,000lb bomb

    TO: Mike LaForge

    Thanks,

    Now I'll be able to get some sleep.

    The poor thin just keeps on shrinking, though.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 02:38:03 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Henry Herz wrote:

> point, 75% of the Afrika Korps' logistical transport was captured Allied
> equipment. I suspect the Germans captured Russian aircraft in 1941 (at least),
> but don't know if they chose to use them in combat.  The modern analogs

Not Russian aircraft, I think. Certainly not in combat; they would have
been completely below standards --- the 1941 aircraft inventory of the
USSR was almost entirely obsolete. Even Russian aircraft captured later
would have been too poorly equipped by German standards, and there were
little spare parts in any case.  The famous KG.200 used some captured
B-17s and B-24s, mainly for special operations, such as dropping and
resupplying spies. And of course captured aircraft were routinely
evaluated and used for training.

The problem was less significant if the original country was occupied; the
Luftwaffe did use some captured Dutch (Fokker W.VIII) and French
(Dewoitine D.520, Liore et Olivier LeO 451, Caudron C.270, Bloch MB.152)
aircraft. Some German-designed aircraft (Hs 129, Me 323) also used French
Gnome-Rhone radial engines.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 21:12:40 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN

Great post, John. I have been thoroughly enjoying your letters and it gives me
a slight feel for the war fought in Europe by U.S. troops. Having spent my war
in the Pacific and being primarily a Pacific War scholar, I find your letters
enlightening and interesting. By the way, did you get my post about the
articles for the IHT? Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 21:18:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP B-32

Brad Coon writes:

 >Steve New's informative post mentioned the B-32, always one of my
 >favorites.  He mentioned that 15 of them saw service.  Does anyone
 >on the list know in what theater they served and with what success?
 >Thanks in advance,

The history of the Consolidated Model 33 and 34 (B-32) Dominator goes back
to Nov 39 when the US Army Air Corps issued specification XC-218-A for a
very long range bomber superior to the B-17 and B-24.  ON 8 Apr 40,
preliminary design studies were submitted by Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas and
Consolidated and on 27 Jun 40, the USAAC Evaluation Board designated the
proposals as XB-29, XB-30, XB-31 and XB-32 respectively.  Both Lockheed and
Douglas subsequently withdrew from the competition.

The Consolidated Model 33 was similar to the B-24 with twin fins, larger
Davis-type wing, longer fuselage and rounded nose.  The powerplants were
four 2,200 hp Wright R-3350s, the aircraft was pressurized, had remote
controlled retractable gun turrets with fourteen 50 caliber (12.7 mm)
machine guns and an estimated 101,000 pound (45,814 kg) gross weight.  The
first contract for 2 XB-32-CO's, AC-15549, was signed on 6 Sep 40.  (The
first contract for the XB-29, AC-15429, was signed on the same day.)

The first XB-32-CO, AAF s/n 41-141, rolled off the assembly line six months
behind schedule and made it's first flight on 7 Sep 42.  Because of
problems with the pressurization system, the gun turrets and landing gear
doors, these items were omitted on the prototype.  This aircraft had
R-3350-13 engines inboard and R-3350-21s outboard driving three-bladed
props.  The aircraft also had problems with engine oil leaks and poor
cooling and this had delayed it further.  (The first XB-29 flight was on 29
Sep 42.)

On 17 Mar 43, contract AC-37856 was signed for 300 B-32-CFs.  On 10 May 43,
the first XB-32 crashed on takeoff after making a total of 30 flights.  On
2 Jul 43, the second XB-32, s/n 41-142, finally flew; this aircraft had a
stepped cockpit canopy but the AAF soon reported that this aircraft was
obsolete and recommended a large number of changes.

The second XB-32 was equipped with eight 50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine
gunes in dorsal and ventral turrets, two 50 caliber and one 20 mm cannon in
each outboard engine nacelle firing rearwards and controlled  by aiming
stations in the aircraft plus two 50 caliber machine guns in the wings
outboard of the propellers.  The pressurization system problems were never
solved and this was abonded on production aircraft.  The remote controlled
gun turret problems were never solved and the armament on production
aircraft was changed to ten 50 caliber machine guns in nose, dorsal,
ventral and tail positions; the bomb load was increased by 4,000 pounds
(1,814 kg) to 20,000 pounds (9,072 kg).

The second XB-32 also had stability problems and in an attempt to resolve
this problem, a B-29 style tail was fitted after its 25th flight but this
did not resolve the problem and a Consolidated-designed 19.5 foot (5.9 m)
vertical tail was added and first flown on the third XB-32, s/n 41-18336
on  3 Nov 43.  The first production aircraft was fitted with the B-29
vertical tail initally before a new tail was substitued.

By 1944, the AAF had placed orders for over 1,500 B-32s.  The first
production aircraft was delivered on 19 Sep 44 by which time the B-29 was
already in combat in India.  The first aircraft crashed on the same day it
was delivered when the nosewheel collapsed on landing.  By Dec 44, only five
B-32s had been delivered and by this time, the B-29s were flying combat
over Japan from the Mariana Islands.  Starting on 27 Jan 45, 40 B-32A-5,
-10 and -15 aircraft were delivered as unarmed TB-32-CF crew trainers.

The problem for the AAF now was that they had a very heavy bomber (the
B-29) in combat and what were they to do with the B-32?  Everyone wanted
B-29s but nobody wanted the B-32.  In Mar 45, General George Kenney,
Commanding General Far East Air Forces, was in Washington and he suggested
that since he could not get B-29s, he would take the B-32 and test them in
combat.  The plan was to convert the 312th Bombardment Group (Light), a
Douglas A-20 Havoc outfit, to B-32s.  Special crews took three B-32s to
Clark Field, Luzon, Philippine Islands in mid-May 45, and after a month of
minor shakedown flights, the test period was completed on 17 Jun; the test
crews were impressed with its unique reversible-pitch inboard propellers
and the Davis wing which gave it excellent landing performance.  However,
they found the codkpit had an extremely high noise level, poor instrument
layout, the bombardier's vision was poor, it was overweight and the nacelle
design resulted in frequent engine fires.

Two of the three B-32s flew their first mission on 29 May 45, a ground
support mission.  Six more aircraft arrived and they were all assigned to
the 386th Bombardment Squadron (Light) at Floridablanca, Luzon Island.
Other missions flown by the 386th from Luzon were:

  15 Jun 44: Two dropped sixteen 2,000 pound (907 kg) bombs on a sugar mill
at Taito, Formosa.
  22 Jun 44: One of two B-32s bomb an alcohol plant at Heito, Formsoa with
500 pounders (227 kg) but the  second one misses flak positions with
260-pound (118 kg) frag bombs.

All told, the B-32s flew 16 sorties from Luzon.

On 13 Aug 45, the 386th moved from Luzon to Yontan airstrip on Okinawa and
flew mostly photographic reconnaissance missions.  The last mission was
flown on 28 Aug 45 with the loss of 2 aircraft; one crashed on take-off and
another was abandoned after "technical" problems.  After VJ-Day, all B-32s
were returned to the US.

A total of 117 B-32s were delivered, i.e.:

  3 XB-32-CO
 10 B-32-1-CF
  4 B-32-5-CF
 20 B-32-20-CF
  1 B-32-21-CF
 25 B-32-25-CF
  7 B-32-30-CF
  7 B-32-35-CF
 11 TB-32-5-CF
 25 TB-32-10-CF
  4 TB-32-15-CF

Orders for 1,099 B-32-CFs and 499 B-32-COs were cancelled after VJ-Day.

Many of these aircraft were delivered from the factory incomplete and were
flown directly to Davis-Monthan Field, Tucson, Arizona for storage.  By
1947, most had been scrapped; in Jun 47, Milton J. Reynolds, a pen
manufacturer announced his intention to purchase a B-32 and fly it around
the world over both Poles but nothing happened.  B-32-1-CF, s/n 42-108474,
was intended for display at the Air Force Museum but this was scrapped at
Davis-Monthan AFB in Aug 49.  The only remnant of a B-32 left is a static
test wing panel erected as a monument to aviation pioneer John J Montgomery
on a hill near San Diego, California.

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|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
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End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Nov 1994 to 3 Nov 1994
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