Subject: WWII-L Digest - 10 Nov 1994 to 11 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 00:02:27 -0500

There are 31 messages totalling 957 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 11-11-94
  2. Ref: WWIIHRS National Battle
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-NOV-1944
  4. Eastern Front Books (3)
  5. Comet Line (2)
  6. Cannibalism in other theaters (3)
  7. Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 4 of 4.
  8. family archives (3)
  9. Rokossovsky (2)
 10. GEN:  Renegade Officers in WW2
 11. Remembrance:WWII/I
 12. Wargamers!  Luftwaffe Stragedy question..
 13. GEN/HIST: Renegade officers (2)
 14. GEN/HIST: Allies
 15. WEAP: Battleship North Carolina
 16. Memorial Day, 1994
 17. European Trip Report
 18. Re[2]: family archives
 19. TACT: HALSEY (2)
 20. Rememberances on Veteran's Day
 21. REBELS: Rommel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-11-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/11 Sat. Aircraft from three carrier task groups (Rear Adm. F.
           C. Sherman) attack Japanese convoy in Ormoc Bay,
           Leyte, P. I.; four enemy destroyers and a minesweeper
           are sunk.
           Cruiser and destroyer task group (Rear Adm. A. E.
           Smith) bombards airfields and other enemy shore
           installations on Iwo Jima, Volcano Islands;
           bombardment commences shortly before midnight and
           continues on 12 November.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk, Ormoc Bay, P. I.:
             Destroyers HAMANAMI, NAGANAMI, SHIMAKAZE, and
              WAKATZUKI and  Minesweeper  NO. 30, by carrier-
              based  aircraft,
              10 d. 50'N., 124 31'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:32:00 UTC
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Ref: WWIIHRS National Battle

Original Msg Id: Not Found
genie-postmaster response to your message

    Subject: Re: Ref: WWIIHRS National Battle
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------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 04:18:47 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-NOV-1944

On 12-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In a counter-attack by units of the German 1st Army, the
bridge at Malling on the Moselle is destroyed. The Germans are driven back
with heavy losses after being engaged by the US 90th Division (XX Corps).
The 358th Regiment captures Elzange and Valmestroff. Construction is begun
on a bridge over the Moselle at Cattenom. In the US XII Corps sector,
German resistance collapses and units of the 6th Armoured Division are able
to cross the Rotte at three points.

Eastern Front - The Bulgarian 1st Army captures Kumanovo in Yugoslavia.

Italian Front - The Polish II Corps, supported by the British V Corps,
attacks on the line Castrocarc-Converselle-Santa Lucia, south of Faenza.

Norway - The German battleship Tirpitz is attacked while at anchor in
Tromso Fjord. Twenty Lancaster bombers of the RAF sink the 42,900 ton
battleship, the twin ship of the Bismarck. Offshore a German coastal convoy
is attacked by Royal Navy cruisers and destroyers.

Philippines (Leyte) - In the X Corps sector, the 21st Infantry captures
Breakneck Ridge.

The Homefront
-------------
Sinclair Lewis' Son Killed - The son of novelist Sinclair Lewis, Lt. Wells
Lewis, has been killed in action in France.

Eisenhower Bond Appeal - Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower has issued an appeal
seeking support for the Sixth War Loan, which begins Nov. 20. He says that
"to make sure of final victory we must redouble and sustain our efforts,
both here and everywhere because the fighting man still faces a grim task
and he still urgently needs much food, clothing and battle equipment that
must be bought."

Pro Football - New York 21, Philadelphia 21; Washington 10, Brooklyn 0;
Detroit 21, Cards-Pitt 7; Green Bay 42, Cleveland 7; Chicago Bears 21,
Boston 7.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:05:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

To whom it may Concern!

> ..especially the latter. What can you counsel as the best book on the
> Nazi dictatorship ?

    The best by far is Dr. Karl-Dietrich Bracher "The German
Dictatorship".

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:06:14 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comet Line

  He joined the U.S.
> Air Force in WWII, as a tail-gunner in a
>B-29, and his plane was shot down over Belgium in 1943.  The book recounts how
>he was saved and hidden by Belgian civilians, shepherded to the French border,

Was the B-29 a typo?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:29:04 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comet Line

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion
List writes:
>   He joined the U.S.
> > Air Force in WWII, as a tail-gunner in a
> >B-29, and his plane was shot down over Belgium in 1943.  The book recounts
> how
> >he was saved and hidden by Belgian civilians, shepherded to the French
> border,
>
> Was the B-29 a typo?

Guaranteed.

(Unless Belgian and French were typos... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:36:01 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Cannibalism in other theaters

*** I hope this doesn't get too graphic but it's hard to relate
    the information without some details.

The recent talk about cannibalism in the Pacific got me thinking
about other theaters and if their were any recorded instances of
it elsewhere.  I did a very quick survey of my bookshelves and
found only one situation where it was not uncommon.  That was,
yes, the seige of Leningrad.
        I've not read offcial Soviet accounts but according to other
sources, the Soviets discount all talk of it happening in the city.
Western sources tend to say that isolated incidents did happen and
that by the first winter of the seige it was happening with alarming
regularity.  As the winter began and the Soviets lost land access to
the city, the only reliable route for supplies was over Lake Lagona (sp?)
via barge.  These made easy targets for German aircraft and many were
sunk.  Then an unusually warm November prevented the Lake from freezing
to the point that trucks could cross.  By late November/ early December,
trucks could begin crossing the lake to carry supplies to the city's
three million defenders & residents.  German aircraft still accounted for
many lost trucks - the almost constant daylight and effective use of
air-dropped flares kept the routes well lit for the Germans.  Eventually
the Soviets gave up trying to blackout the convoys and told the drivers
to keep their lights on.
        By the begining of winter the city's residents were on rations
of 400 grams of bread a day (perhaps 400 calories, I have to double
check that figure).  The bread was often made of sawdust, glue and
moldy flour salvaged from sunken barges, and other appealing
ingredients.  There was one Soviet admiral in the city who reportedly
sent his expensive pig-hide leather attache case to a relative who,
through marvel of cooking, produced a ham-like soup which fed her family
for a week.  She even returned the brass fittings to the officer.
Residents supplimented their state rations with horse and later rat meat.
        The first cases of cannibalism were reported during this phase
of the seige.  Bodies being brought to collection sites began to arrive
with parts of their anatomy missing - mainly the glutimus maximus muscles
and livers.  It was believed to be done by immediate family members.
Eventually the bodies of strangers left unattended were raided for parts.
As the siege and winter progressed the consumed items went from stored
food, to livestock and horses, to pets and rodents, to family body parts,
to civilans in general, and eventually to victims murdered for food.  Most
disturbing for the Soviets were the reports of front line troops, who
were on full rations, being murdered in the city.  This apparently became
such a problem that well-fed soldiers on leave to the city were ordered to
carry their weapons and travel in groups in order to protect themselves.
As far as I can tell, civilians were the main participants in this activity;
the military, having a higher priority for food, didn't resort to it.
        Caveat:  I'm just starting _900 Days: The seige of Leningrad_ so
if I've written anything prematurely or in error, I appologize and I'm sure
the List will correct me.  This is a gruesome, yet interesting subject.

patrick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:28:38 -0600
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 4 of 4.

Fact about Camp Ellis:

Catherine Ellis, widow of Sergeant Michael B. Ellis, was a branch clerk at
the hospital post exchange.  In February 1944, she was awarded a service
ribbon for loyal service.

In November 1943, Ellis' soldiers ate 2,000 Thanksgiving turkeys.

The first property purchased for Camp Ellis was a 45 acre tract in Fulton
County for $2315.

On January 20, 1944, 106 officers and enlisted personnel of the Women's
Army Corps (WAC) arrived for duty at Camp Ellis.

The camp's victory garden produced 95 tons of tomatoes; 38 tons of green
beans; 35 tons of corn; 25 tons of squash; 21 tons of cucumbers; and 19
tons of sweet potatoes.

Over one year's time, Camp Ellis personnel purchased from the post
exchange 105,690,000 cigarettes; 4,416,504 bottles of 3.2 beer; 3,776,885
bottles of soda; 2,277,500 small candy bars; and 1,270,000 large candy
bars.

Camp Ellis had 22 small arms ranges.

One of the earliest snowstorms ever recorded hit the Ipava area on
September 26, 1942.  Workers building Camp Ellis would experience one of
the worst winters in west central Illinois.  During January and February
1943, crews worked in temperatures that dipped to 12 degrees below zero.

During construction of Camp Ellis, the railroad delivered as many as 125
carloads of building materials per day to Table Grove.

Some farmers were only given 10 days notice to vacate their farms.  Sealed
bids were taken for crops left standing in the fields.  One thousand acres
of corn was sold for $11,555, and seven hundred acres of soybeans went for
$6,100.

Four trains ran daily between Galesburg and Table Grove.  A fleet of 30
buses made seven daily trips to Camp Ellis.

A single room in Macomb rented for $10 per week.  The average rent was $7
per week.

Source:
Roberts, Delbert.  "Remember When..."  MACOMB JOURNAL, 5 October 1994.

That's all folks.
Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:15:06 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: family archives

I have come across some family archives concerning my grandfather, Herb
Eaton, Brig Gen, MTO, USAAF. He died in a plane crash near Vichy on Feb
6, 1945. I have two questions-

1. Is a B-25D a general variant, or is a special variant?
2. Most of thew records are offical documents (We regret to inform
you...) and personal letters. What is the best way in which to preserve
them from deterioration. (they are currently in good shape) For the
present, they are in a manila folder and are kept in a fire proof safe.
What means are there to keep them that way? (someone has suggested comic
book bags) do they need to be treated in any way? Thanks in advance to
all-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | Faber est suae quisque fortunae-
Grad Student            |
Department of History   | Each man is the smith of his own fortune-
University of Arkansas  |
[email-masked]   | -Appius Claudius Caecus

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:24:21 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: family archives

> I have come across some family archives concerning my grandfather, Herb
> Eaton, Brig Gen, MTO, USAAF. He died in a plane crash near Vichy on Feb
> 6, 1945. I have two questions-
>
> 1. Is a B-25D a general variant, or is a special variant?

The D was a very common early B-25.  The C model saw some combat, but it
was the D that was first used in large quantities.  (There actually was
very little difference between the C and the D).

The obvious difference with the D is that the top turret, like the C and
other early models, was in the rear fuselage, near the waist windows.  It
was later models that moved it to the front.  the D was also the first to
incorporate a full tail gun position.

The nose varied based on specific modifications.  Some were field-modified
gun noses, but most were glass.

> 2. Most of thew records are offical documents (We regret to inform
> you...) and personal letters. What is the best way in which to preserve
> them from deterioration. (they are currently in good shape) For the
> present, they are in a manila folder and are kept in a fire proof safe.
> What means are there to keep them that way? (someone has suggested comic
> book bags) do they need to be treated in any way? Thanks in advance to
> all-Drew

All sorts of things will destroy documents.  The best place to ask is a
local museum who work with papers, books, paintings, etc.

The first and most important precaution is ultraviolet.  UV rays will
destroy paper and ink before you can blink, it seems.  Next, humidity and
temperature are very important.  Comic book bags, or even thick ziploc
bags help -- the bad thing about air-tight bags is that they trap everything
that might harm the papers -- including moisture.  The bad thing about non-
air-tight is that it allows it all in.  :-)

Museums all work with various suppliers to get storage materials for long-
term storage and preservation of documents.  But if you store the documents
in a reasonably neutral environment (such as comic book bags), don't give
them access to a UV source (this includes fluorescent lights) and protect
them from temperature extremes, you are already doing better than 99% of
the rest of the world... And they are also successful in preserving
documents...

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:30:57 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rokossovsky

Hi Mike!

Thanks for your help.

On Thu, 10 Nov 94, Mike Yaklich wrote:

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the future Marshal Rokossovsky
>"rehabilitated" during the Finnish Winter War, a year prior to the Moscow
>campaign?

I am getting reports that Rokossovsky was involved in the Russo-Finish
War and was later involved in counterattacks in the Smolensk area as the
Germans were approaching Moscow.

>I know that Stalin's people recalled some formerly disgraced and/or
>incarcerated officer victims of the military purges when things started to go
>wrong in Finland--allowing them to work their passage, as it were, back to
>respectability at the front.  The program was successful enough that it was
>instituted again on a larger scale in the crisis of the winter of '41-42.

I haven't read much about any other post-purge rehabilited Red Army
officers than Rokossovsky.  If anyone has any info on other officers, I
would sure like to know who they were, as well as stories on how they
were implicated in Stalin's purge.   Are there sources for this?  I
would assume there's a book that deals with Stalin's military purge
exclusively.

>If someone knowledgeable in this area doesn't post it first I'll eventually
>dig up some bio on the future c-in-c of the Polish Army.

I would certainly appreciate it.  Thanks much.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:34:30 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR by Hugh Thomas
This seems to be the standard English-language general history of the
war.  Some new scholarship in recent years challenges specific parts of
it (i.e., the Italian intervention and its effectiveness), but I think
it remains the preferred one-volume history.  Good treatment of the
causes of the war and the politics of the Republican side, in my
opinion.  (I'm still a little vague on how Anarchists can organize a
government.)

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:42:56 -0500
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN:  Renegade Officers in WW2

Hello everyone!

I was trying to come up with instances where officers explicitly
disobeyed orders, and could only come up with a few realtively benign
examples.  I refer to them as 'benign' because they countermanded orders
that were somewhat extreme.

Examples:

o Rommel's decision to withdraw from El Alemain after Montgemery
decisively thrashed him, despite Hitler's insistance that he stay and
fight.  (Did Hitler actually order him to stay put?)

o Manstein's fighting withdrawal on the eastern front in 1943 despite
directives similar to the above.

I am particularly interested in stories of extreme instances of this on
the Russian Front, whether by Germans or by Russians, that was less
inspired by wisdom.

Can anyone help me here?

Thanks again.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:59:13 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Remembrance:WWII/I

76 years ago, on the eleventh day of the eleventh month at the eleventh
hour, hostilities officially ended in the 1914-18 war.

On Sunday at the Cenotaph, Whitehall, London, wreaths will be laid, there
will be a short service of remembrance. Just before 11am, the Last
Post will be sounded. As Big Ben strikes 11, the 2-minutes of silence
will be observed (if only the tourists would shut up :-() followed by
the Reveille.

There then follows the march-past of veterans and their families from
the two world wars - the vast majority from WWII of course.
 There may be one or two veterans from the Great
War in their wheelchairs who will turn out and parade past the
crowds as the military band plays the famous marching tunes from
that period.

Many veterans from other allied nations will also march in the parade.
It is a deeply sobering and moving experience to see these people.
HM The Queen Mother will be absent for only the second time
since the inception of the event. She has hurt her foot and aged 94,
is not quite so steady anymore. The other time she missed Remembrance
Day was in 1959 when she had influenza.

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:09:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: family archives

Hello, Drew!

I can answer part of your question.

> 2. Most of thew records are offical documents (We regret to inform
> you...) and personal letters. What is the best way in which to preserve
> them from deterioration. (they are currently in good shape) For the
> present, they are in a manila folder and are kept in a fire proof safe.

    The best way to preserve photographs, documents or other related
materials, is to place them in acid-free binders, which run about a
dollar apiece. It can get expensive quickly, but these will preserve
your documents for many generations. The process of deterioration
cannot be stopped, only slowed. There is a company which manufactures
such bindings or plastic sheets in which there is no sulphuric acid.

    Hope this helps.

> What means are there to keep them that way? (someone has suggested comic
> book bags) do they need to be treated in any way? Thanks in advance to
> all-Drew

    See above. I would not recommend anything other that what I have
described above.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:12:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wargamers!  Luftwaffe Stragedy question..

Hello, John and others!

One consideration, besides all the valid ones you and others have
mentioned is the tactical location of the base. Given the short range
of the Me-163, it would only make sense to concentrate them in an
area that guaranteed the maximum amount of targets, particularly,
in those areas in which the bomber streams would be found.

My thoughts.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:29:33 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Cannibalism in other theaters

Hello, Patrick!

This thread was discussed in some detail nearly a year ago. You might
consult the list archives to locate all that was said on this topic.

Yes, this subject is discussed at length in Salisbury's book and
there are some gory details, to say the least.

There is also the story of Italians, captured during the Stalingrad
battle, who resorted to cannibalism in the Russian POW and labor
camps that is also horrible.

Thanks.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 13:14:08 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN/HIST: Renegade officers

I seem to recall that Waffen SS general Sepp Dietrich, near the end of the
war, disobeyed some direct orders from Hitler. Hitler responded angrily and
Dietrich is alleged (per the legend) to have responded "Lech mir am Arsch"
and returned all his medals in a chamber pot.

-- Warren Thompson

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:50:42 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN/HIST: Allies

One of my prime reasons for writing my 50 YA column is to learn more
about the war. I'll be the first to admit that prior to beginning the
column I had concentrated my main study on the naval war (primarily in
the Pacific). In writing my column one thing has really impressed me -
the large number of different countries that had units participating in
the Allied effort. Like alot of Americans, I haven't really thought alot
about the contribution of the other Allies (other than maybe the
British). I am especially impressed by the contributions of the Canadians
in France, the Polish units in France and Italy and the Indian forces in
Italy. At some point I sure would like to see a table showing each front
and the composition of the Allies that fought on those fronts.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:55:16 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Battleship North Carolina

For those that have visited the North Carolina in Wilmington, N.C., I
wanted to mention that I read in this morning's paper that the N.C.
Battleship Commission is going to have the "Showboat" repainted this
Spring in camoflage patterns to replicate the appearance of the battleship
during most of the war. I don't know if this is true, but the article went
on to say that the North Carolina will be the only existing battleship
memorial that is in camoflage paint.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:19:15 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memorial Day, 1994

                I HEARD THE DRUMS

        I heard the drums this morning --
          Rehearsal for the day
        Of memory and roses;
          And now we put away
        The selfish zest for living,
          The eagerness for gain,
        Remembering those who quiet lie
          In sunshine or in rain.

        I heard the drums this morning --
          The flags will be unfurled,
        The bugles call to solemn tryst
          Now reaching round the world;
        And we who walk the roads of life,
          Spring's blue sky overhead,
        Bring memory and roses
          For our loved and honored dead.

        I heard the drums this morning --
          What scanty price we pay
        To gallant ones who gave their lives
          To point a better way:
        Just memory and roses ...
          Briefly the world has peace!
        What is the truth mankind must learn
          Before all wars shall cease?

                        by B. Y. Williams

Let us never forget those who did not return.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:25:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN/HIST: Renegade officers

Hello, Warren!

I am not familiar with that particular story in which Dietrich was to
have done this. Adolf Galland tore off his KC with diamonds in front
of H. Goering in a fit of rage.

There is the story however, and a true one at that, that near the end
of the war, Hitler railed against the 6th SS Panzer Army, transferred
to Hungary (Lake Balaton) after the "Bulge" in its failure to
maintain control of the oil fields there. This insult resulted in the
members of the LSSAH removing their armbands and/or decorations,
which had been covered with blood, and having this sent to Hitler
personally in the Chancellery, as a display of their 1) displeasure
at the remark(s), and 2) to indicate that they had not disobeyed
orders, but had held to their task until they could no longer.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:46:49 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: European Trip Report

On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Jim Benn wrote:

> DACHAU:  The first concentration camp; what amazed me is that Dachau is a
> suburb of Munich, next to what is today a major road and very near the
> downtown area of the city Dachau.  Hardly hidden in the country.  The
> original guard towers, main building and crematorium are still there.
> There is a museum, and the displays make the point that the Nazis wanted
> the population to know about the brutality of Dachau, to give the message
> that this was the punishment for opposition.  That was news to me.  The
> offical figures for people killed there list about 30,000, but that
> doesn't include Russian POWs and Gestapo "special handling" cases that
> were not counted.  Probably the most chilling thing I saw was an area for
> executions by pistol shots to the head.  It had a "blood ditch" to
> provide a run-off so the killers wouldn't stand in blood.  Somehow this
> attention to detail was the most evil thing there.

Having written a short story dealing with Dachau, I was excited when I
finally got to go there last year.  I expected to be moved by the
experience and was, but the one thing about my own visit there was
something I saw in two young american teenagers.  I suspect that they
were sixteen or seventeen years old when I saw them.

I went to Dachau with my german friend and as we entered the museum part
of the camp, we followed these two young men into the building.  They
entered the museum joking and laughing.  I didn't notice when their
behavior changed because I was to busy being overwhelmed myself, but
something happened to those two boys that day.

As my friend and I exited the museum, there sitting on the cement landing
next to the wheelchair ramp were the boys who had been joking.  Only now
they just sat there.  They didn't say a word to one another.  They just
staired their blank tearful stairs and their mouths hung open in a kind
of horror.

For me to see two of today's teenagers, who seen to not give a damn about
anything, being so moved by something they had only read about in history
class, I think that perhaps there may still be hope.  If everyone could
be as shocked as those two boys were, perhaps there would be fewer
horrors in the world today.

> Well, it was fun writing this and reliving my trip. Hope it was of interest.

Jim

I enjoyed reading about your trip.  I have been to several of the places
you named, but there is just something about Dachau that made me want to
relate my own experience there.

C.K. Bryant
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:20:38 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: family archives

    One other possibility.

    On the event of a recent death in my family, I became the custodian of
    a number of family documents and photographs dating from the 19th
    century.

    I have done the best to protect them that I can, acid-free binders in
    airtight plastic etc., but nothing is permanant.

    What I did do is scan each of them into PC images.  This gave me the
    option to repair prior damage, restore faded sections etc..  Granted,
    this doesn't save the document, but it preserves the information.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 15:25:31 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Cannibalism in other theaters

>to the point that trucks could cross.  By late November/ early December,
>trucks could begin crossing the lake to carry supplies to the city's
>three million defenders & residents.  German aircraft still accounted for
>many lost trucks - the almost constant daylight and effective use of
>air-dropped flares kept the routes well lit for the Germans.  Eventually

How do you get constant daylight at that time of year? There should be only
a few hours of light.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 18:33:02 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: HALSEY

With respect to the "Battle of Bull's Run," the fiasco in which Halsey left the
San Bernardino Strait uncovered, it was just not a matter of Halsey taking off
after a skeleton Japanese force in hope of destroying what he thought was a
sizable group. The problem was that Halsey was sailing under orders from
Nimitz, who, as CINCPAC, was mightily concerned that Halsey not coming under
MacArthur's command. And so his orders gave him great latitude in what he could
do, and one of the aspects of these orders was to engage the enemy fleet. That
did not mean that he should stay and protect MacArthur's landings, nor did it
necessarily mean that he was subordinate to Kinkaid's fleet. When I interviewed
Adm Mick Carney, who was Halsey
Halsey's chief of staff, the message he received from CINCPAC, asking him where
he was, "Turkey trots to water, all the world wants to know where is TF 38,"
caused Halsey to throw his hat to the deck and begin cursing mightily. He felt
he was being second-guessed from Nimitz' headquarters. This is an interesting
study in personalities, misinterpretation of orders, and a split command. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 18:47:25 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Dear Arnaud,

I've heard very good things about Carlo d'Este. Thomas' The Spanish Civil War,
*Third Edition* is almost certainly the best single volume work on the war.
It is vastly revised and expanded from the first edition, based on info
that became available during and after Franco's death. The third edition
is available as a Penguin paperback. On the Nazis, Karl Dietrich Bracker's
The Nazi Dictatorship might fill your need. Toland is think is OK, but
Bullock still holds up, and see his recent Hitler and Stalin.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:37:25 -0700
From:    Dave Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rememberances on Veteran's Day

In the past, when I would raise the flag on Veteran's Day, I would think
of the veterans I knew.  My father, who was stationed in Germany during the
Korean conflict.  My grandfathers, one who was a courier in France during
WWI and the other who was stationed at the Pentagon during WWII.  Family
friends, like Bob Cash, a waist gunner in a B-24 who took a round in
the thigh when his plane was shot down over the Med - he survived a Death
March through Germany while many of his friends did not (to this day he
refuses to eat at German restaurants).  Mike Gross, a B-17 instructor who
never got over the thrill of flight and still passes on his love of airplanes
to others.  And, I would briefly ponder the sacrifices made by them.

Today, however, I thought of the veterans on this list.  More than briefly.
Each of you made your contribution.  Each of you sacrificed something of
yourself.  For some, it was a few years of their lives.  For others, it was
their bodies.  Far too many who aren't here sacrificed everything.

I offer my respect and gratitude to all of you on this day.  I am not naive
enough to wish you a "happy" Veterans Day as I know this is not a day for
celebration.  In Canada, this day is called Remembrance Day.  When I raised
the flag at the mailbox this morning, I remembered...

                                Dave Neil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 19:06:26 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rokossovsky

Haven't had time to dig out details, but Rokossovsky was definitely
commanding the IX Mechanized Corps in the Kiev Special Military
Destrict when the Germans attacked, handled the unit as well as
possible in some very bloody and confused fighting that gave the
OKW HQ some hard moments in June-July `41, rose to army commander
and then CO of the Briansk Front in `42. The IX Mech was an elite
unit, so he couldn't have been thought of too badly, purged or not.
His arrest may have had some connection with Bluikher's purge, as
Rok served as a brigade commander in Bluikher's 1929-30 war with
China. I'd have to check his arrest date, but Bluikher was arrested
very late (Oct `38), and if Rok's arrest followed, that may have saved
him.

A. Gobatov, whose memoirs were translated as Years of My Life, I think,
was also arrested and released to service.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 20:41:43 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: HALSEY

I think that the implication of Ben Franks posting is that Halsey got the
short end of the stick for his actions.  I would agree, for several reasons.
1) Carriers up until this time in the war were the principle enemy--most
dangerous and capable of offensive action against the U.S. Navy and ground
forces ashore.  2) Halsey could not know that these were decoys--even if he
thought that they were, what was he supposed to do?  You have to err on the
side of conservatism in such a case--go get the carriers. 3) the legacy of
the Spruance decision in the Marshalls, along with the flip-flop command that
had Spruance and Halsey trade off in command of the carriers.  When Spruance
decided not to pursue, he obviously felt that he had put an end to the IJN
air threat from any surviving carriers (wow, what claims and kills!) and that
the immediate threat was from a surface raid.  Spruance was a cruiser skipper
before Midway, whereas didn't Halsey get wings, even after the age of 50?
This may show a difference in temperment.  4) as Ben mentions, the split
command--this time at the highest level (besides the Spruance/Halsey "split")
between Nimitz and MacArthur--put Halsey in an untenable position when being
"tried" by those who were not there.

Finally, to have relieved Halsey for such aggressiveness would have been
criminal.  Early in the war, when carriers were scarce and the conflict was
in the balance, the command structure trusted Halsey above all others.  So
then late in the war when aggressiveness could really pay dividends, you
releive him?  Just when you have the resources to gamble with?  Spruance
probably had more grounds for relief after the Marshalls episode.

Just my two cents worth.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 1994 23:29:46 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: REBELS: Rommel

     Rommel was well known for disobeying orders.  Unlike many other
generals, however, Rommel was able to justify his actions by success.
For example, when he originally went to North Africa, he was ordered
to prevent the British from taking Tripoli.  When he counterattacked,
orders kept on coming from Germany and Italy for him to stop.  But the
subsequent victory absolved him in the eyes of Hitler and the public
of all wrongdoing.
     As for the battle of El Alemein, he did receive the "fight to the
last man, hold to the end" orders from Hitler.  Rommel, however, wasn't
interested in total defeat nor in having all his troops killed uselessly.
Instead, he withdrew and withdrew - all the way to Tunisia.  His excuse
was that he'd interpreted the orders as "recommendations" and that,
because Hitler and OKW weren't in the theater, as a tactical commander
he had a better view of the situation.  Hitler liked Rommel enough to
give into his point of view, hard as it is to believe.  His assignments
to Italy and the Atlantic Wall bear this out.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Nov 1994 to 11 Nov 1994
*************************************************