Subject: WWII-L Digest - 22 Nov 1994 to 23 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:01:26 -0500

There are 51 messages totalling 1556 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN (6)
  2. WEAP: BB-39 Arizona
  3. WEAP: BB-39 Arizona (fwd)
  4. GEN: RESPITE FROM THE WAR (2)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 11-23-94
  6. <No subject given>
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 24-NOV-1944
  8. query:how to define WWII (3)
  9. ADMIN:Not Receiving Mail
 10. GEN Re: Generation Gap/Hiroshima
 11. 22d in Hurtgen 23-24 November 1944
 12. B-17 Flying Fortress computer game
 13. 50TH: Invasion Defenses (Was: Helping the young understand
 14. ACES: Bio of an Italian Ace (4)
 15. Eighth
 16. Waffen-SS (2)
 17. Uniforms: Pinks & Greens (2)
 18. war fiction and the "armed forces library" (2)
 19. Close Air Support in Normandy (3)
 20. 50th Invasion Defenses
 21. WEAP: Italian aircraft in german colors
 22. Close Air Support In Normandy
 23. ACES: (2)
 24. WEAP:  BB-63 USS Missouri
 25. ENOLA GAY AGAIN (4)
 26. MISC
 27. WAR FICTION AND TH
 28. [INF] USAAF 24 NOV 44
 29. 50TH: HELPING THE
 30. 50TH: INVASION DEFENSE
 31. Hollywood in World War II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 00:32:30 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN

On Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:55:27 -0500 Ben Frank said:
>I think that you are absolutely right, John. If the media focuses on the basic
>truths about Iwo and Okinawa, the nature of the fighting and of the enemy, and
>what it really was like at both places, perhaps the current generation will
>understand why there was no hesitation in dropping the bomb to ensure that we
>wouldn't have to invade Japan. I repeat what I have said earlier, i.e., anyone
>who survived any of the Pacific battles was not so certain he would survive the
>landings on Japan. The butcher's bill would be horrendous. There is no doubt in
>my mind whatsoever that that is true. Ben Frank

     I don't disagree that the media should focus on the battles of Iwo Jima
and Okinawa.  Unfortunately, though, one can't "make" the media do anything
and, as such corny incidents as OJ Simpson and Tonya Harding have shown,
the media is a private enterprise subject to supply and demand.  The media
is in the business of making money first, spreading news second.
     That is why we can't hold the media to blame for the lack of coverage.
It's been there - if one looks hard enough - but it is so obscured and hidden
not because of media moguls but because the American public is more interested
about crime, elections, etc.  And that is the heart of the problem and solution
- how to make Americans interested and knowledgeable about WWII.
     And yet I wonder, meaning no offense to anyone, whether remembering our
wars is the wisest thing in the world.  Is it possible that, were we to
memorialize every victory and defeat, we would become a militant and arrogant
society as were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?  I personally enjoy studying
WWII and American history in general, but when I look at the nations - such
as Russia, Nazi Germany, Japan, or even the UK to a lesser extent - I feel
better that America forgets its tragedies and triumphs to the effect that
we enjoy more freedom.
     It is good, in the end, that Americans are more concerned about their
individual lives and personal problems than they are about sacrifices 25
or 50 years ago, or the glory of America, or the dignity of our nation.
Because that has enable us, in our good history, to be true liberators and
spreaders of freedom.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 22 Nov 1994 20:20:37 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BB-39 Arizona

The copy right of the book is 1988.  It does not list purple hearts, but
other personal decorations or citations.  What I meant is that by this
book he did not receive any other awards.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Robert J. Granvin wrote:

nn> writes:
> > I just checked *0755 The Heroes of Pearl Harbor* , a book that lists all
> > Pearl Harbor medal and citation winners and saw no mention of Russ Lott.
>
> What's the copyright date on the book?
>
> I've got the newspaper clippings of the award ceremony (buried somewhere)
> which was held in Fort Dodge, Iowa -- his current home town.  I can't remember
> when the award was granted -- possibly '92, but I believe he physically
> received it in early '93.
>
> Is it possible that when the award finally came that it wasn't properly
> linked to Pearl Harbor?
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 22 Nov 1994 20:25:19 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BB-39 Arizona (fwd)

Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 20:20:37 -1000 (HST)
From: Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
To: WW II DISCUSSION <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BB-39 Arizona

The copy right of the book is 1988.  It does not list purple hearts, but
other personal decorations or citations.  What I meant is that by this
book he did not receive any other awards.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Robert J. Granvin wrote:

nn> writes:
> > I just checked *0755 The Heroes of Pearl Harbor* , a book that lists all
> > Pearl Harbor medal and citation winners and saw no mention of Russ Lott.
>
> What's the copyright date on the book?
>
> I've got the newspaper clippings of the award ceremony (buried somewhere)
> which was held in Fort Dodge, Iowa -- his current home town.  I can't remember
> when the award was granted -- possibly '92, but I believe he physically
> received it in early '93.
>
> Is it possible that when the award finally came that it wasn't properly
> linked to Pearl Harbor?
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:24:53 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: RESPITE FROM THE WAR

  I am going to take a respite from the war, while I do my Christmas cards and
tame a new computer.  If anyone wants to contact me, he or she can do it through
EMAIL.  Happy thanksgiving.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 04:00:15 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-23-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/23 Thu. Submarine GAR (SS-206) lands men and supplies on west
           coast of Luzon, P. I.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Attack transport JAMES O'HARA (APA-90), by suicide
              plane, Leyte area, P. I.,
              10 d. 57'N,, 125 d. 02'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:28:47 EST
From:    "Niraj Agarwalla, UMass-Lowell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

SIGNOFF Niraj Agarwalla

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 04:32:13 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 24-NOV-1944

On 24-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the US 3rd Army sector, the 90th Division continues its
assault on the Orscholz. Units of the 35th Division captures Hilsprich. The
4th Armoured Division crosses the Saar in the XV Corps sector near
Gosselming and Romelfing. The French 2nd Division completes the capture of
Strasbourg.

Philippines (Leyte) - In the X Corps sector, a Japanese counter-attack on
Kilary Ridge is repulsed. Counter-attacks are also mounted by the Japanese
in the XXIV Corps sector.

China - The Japanese capture Nanning.

Japan - One hundred and eleven B-29 Superfortresses bomb Tokyo. Based in
the Marianas, this is the beginning of a long series of raids.

The Homefront
-------------
Army Exceeds 8,000,000 - Selective Service Director Maj. Gen. Lewis Hershey
reports that the US now has 11,859,000 men and women in the armed forces.
More than 8,000,000 of these are in the Army, with the remaining serving in
the Marine Corps and Navy.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica and "Time" magazine.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 06:57:36 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: query:how to define WWII

Hello, Jim!

Sounds like John Lukacs' book.

Terry

> Interesting discussion.  It reminds me of a fascinating book I read
> several years ago: THE LAST EUROPEAN WAR (don't remember the author); it
> discusses the transition from a long term European struggle to a more
> global struggle with the entry of the US in 1941.
>
> Jim.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 06:58:42 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: RESPITE FROM THE WAR

Hello, John!

The same to you, and all the best to you and your family.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:04:43 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN:Not Receiving Mail

Joe and the rest of WWII-L:

I have not received any mail from WWII for the last week and a
half or so, and I am used to receiving 20-30 messages a day.
What a bummer!!

Is there trouble with the list, or have I been set to NO MAIL or
been removed?

Help!!

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:12:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN

Hello, Ben!

A most interesting and thought-provoking post. I would like to add
one thing to support your contention.

 The butcher's bill would be horrendous. There is no doubt in
> my mind whatsoever that that is true. Ben Frank

    I had a conversation with an former army vet who had reached the
rank of major, and was in tanks. His outfit was part of the 19th
Armored Division which was formed rather late in the war and was
specifically sent to Europe to gain battle experience for the
envisioned invasion of Japan. This division did gain much combat
experience during the final days of the European war.

    This vet was told after the conclusion of the fighting in Europe
that when they were to invade Japan, and they were to form a part
of the spearhead of the invasion, that they were to expect 85%
casualties. An astounding figure, and I have no doubt that that would
have been correct, given what we know today how prepared the Japanese
were to defend their homeland.

    Thanks for allowing me to add my comment and I wish you and
your family a joyous Thanksgiving.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:19:12 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN Re: Generation Gap/Hiroshima

Jim Brady writes to the list:

>  1. I don't think you'll find the universiality you presume in parent/child
>relations between WWII vets and their children. From just those I know and
>have heard of, there is the same mix as always of doting, harsh and every
>description in between, and same for kids ranging from respectful to
>resentful.

        I think Jim's point needs to be generalized. The use of the
big sharp sword of generational analysis seems to have gone overboard
recently. It pops up most in the Generation X vs. Boomers bilgewater
we see so much. In our WWII context, we see it applied for Boomers vs.
WWII vets. I personally don't buy it. The generational groups are not
homogenized and don't exist in an effective way.
        I live in a college town. Looking around I see the same
diversity among students as when I was in college in 1966. Generation
X still has frat people doing fraternity/sorority things. It has rich
and poor kids. It has nerds and goof offs. It has about the same ratio
of serious students to people at school for a good time. There is no
shared view of life, the universe, and everything.
        On the Hiroshima issue, my historian's training instructs me to
approach it by studying it in context. I understand that I live in a
different world, but it is my duty to fight the urge to filter 1945
light through a 1994 prism. The "revisionist" attack on the NASM
display seems predicated on a denial of good historical methodology.
The display should teach what happened and explain why.....illuminated
as much as possible by 1945 light.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:18:15 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 22d in Hurtgen 23-24 November 1944

The Twenty Second in the Hurtgen Forest,  23-24 November 1944

     The 2d and 3d Battalions moved forward a few hundred yards on the
twenty-third and secured the road junctions just in front of them.  Road X was
partially opened to the 3d Battalion and a platooon of tanks went forward to
support the infantry.  The Germans shelled the battalions, and the casualties
continued to mount.  The regimental journal noted 270 casualties for the day.
The final report listed 3 officer and 165 enlisted casualties.

     November twenty-third was Thanksgiving Day.  The soldiers in the front
lines ate hot turkey sandwiches--the only hot meal they received during the
entire battle.  Veterans of Baker Company, when interviewed in December 1944,
remembered the radio message informing them turkey was waiting for pick-up at
battalion headquarters, "Believing this to be a code word for something else, a
small detail was sent out to find out the score."  The men of got their turkey
but could not eat until later because heavy artillery barrages kept them in
their holes.

     Four hundred and fifty-three replacements, including thirty-one officers,
arrived on 23 and 24 November.  They brought the regiment back to near full
strength.  Most of the replacements went to the 2d Battalion.  In a message to
General Barton, Lanham said that "White [2d Bn] is looking good now and would
soon take out cooks and KPs etc., that White has been using on the line."
There remained, however, a shortage of twenty officers and 125 men.

     Within the regiment, every battalion had lost its battalion commander and
two of the three rifle company commanders and the fighting condition of the
battalions varied dramatically.  The 1st Battalion consisted of about 50
percent replacements.  The 2d Battalion consisted of 70 to 80 percent new
replacements, many of whom had never participated in an attack, and remained
considerably under strength.  The 3d Battalion's casualties were still
relatively few, although a heavy toll of leaders had been taken.  The battalion
was almost at full strength with only about 20 percent replacements in its
ranks.  Nevertheless, the 3d Battalion was not a fresh unit.  Its soldiers had
also been living, working, digging, patrolling, skirmishing, and dying for nine
days in the Hurtgen Forest.

     According to the 3d Battalion Operations Officer, some of the replacements
were not up to the task.  Recounting one instance when the replacements were
moving forward with supplies, he said that,

. . . artillery shells soon began landing where they were and these
replacements (a few of these men had been in prison back in the states and had
been offered their freedom if they would volunteer to fight), scattered like
the wind.  It took some time to reassemble them."

     On the afternoon of 23 November the division operations officer notified
the 22d the offensive would not resume until the twenty-fifth and the units
would use the next day to complete their reorganization.  Major Goforth,
the 1st Battalion Commander, disliked the delay "because it causes battle
fatigue."  The main supply route opened on 24 November and tanks and tank
destroyers were able to travel to the front lines.  Colonel Lanham again
planned to surprise the Germans.  If surprise failed, the success of the attack
would depend on the infantry and armor working together.  Captain Clifford
Henley wrote in his diary, "Still in the woods, hoping to come out tomorrow and
run the Krauts crazy with our armor."

>From Paschendale with Treebursts

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:25:51 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 Flying Fortress computer game

Jesse Carnes,

If you choose the Lucasfilm arts

"Secret Weapons of the Luffawaffe"

I have seen the CD-ROM version advertised in
Computer Shopper and other game mags somewhere between
15.00 and 19.00.  And the CD-ROM includes all of the additional
aircraft mentioned in previous posts.  I paid 50.00 + for
the original game and then about 20.00 + for each additional
aircraft add-on.  Plus there is a whole range of 'Hacker' tools
and add-ons being developed by users.  Check on any major on-line
service such as GEnie, AOL. etc.

>William Lippert wrote:

>I enjoy flying for the Germans because the
>Me262 is cool and also because there are so many Allies to shoot down.

!!!Horror!!! I just can't shoot at the allies William.
I think I tried once and it made me sick. :^)

enjoy,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:00:54 PST
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: Invasion Defenses (Was: Helping the young understand

    I had a conversation with an former army vet who had reached the
>rank of major, and was in tanks. His outfit was part of the 19th
>Armored Division which was formed rather late in the war and was
>specifically sent to Europe to gain battle experience for the
>envisioned invasion of Japan. This division did gain much combat
>experience during the final days of the European war.
>
>    This vet was told after the conclusion of the fighting in Europe
>that when they were to invade Japan, and they were to form a part
>of the spearhead of the invasion, that they were to expect 85%
>casualties. An astounding figure, and I have no doubt that that would
>have been correct, given what we know today how prepared the Japanese
>were to defend their homeland.
>
>    Thanks for allowing me to add my comment and I wish you and
>your family a joyous Thanksgiving.
>
>    Terry
>
> >
>
Terry (and All!),

    This indeed is thought provoking, and also reminds me of some aspects of
D-Day. I know we've discussed the actual numbers before, but I would like
to be refreshed:

  1. What were the expected casualty rates of the various assaults (airborne
and infantry) of D-Day? What did the numbers turn out to be (through
blessings of circumstance, divinity, guts and guns)?

  2. How did the Japanese defense preparations compare with Germany's
Atlantic Wall? I was deeply impressed at the scope of the sheer
infrastructure described in Ambrose's =D-Day=. I know the personnel and
training were thin in those reaches of France, though the bunker walls were
thick enough to take 14" shells.

  3. Any other comparison/contrasts that come to mind...

Thanks,

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:12:41 PST
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN

     And yet I wonder, meaning no offense to anyone, whether remembering our
>wars is the wisest thing in the world.  Is it possible that, were we to
>memorialize every victory and defeat, we would become a militant and
arrogant
>society as were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?  I personally enjoy
studying
>WWII and American history in general, but when I look at the nations - such
>as Russia, Nazi Germany, Japan, or even the UK to a lesser extent - I feel
>better that America forgets its tragedies and triumphs to the effect that
>we enjoy more freedom.
>     It is good, in the end, that Americans are more concerned about their
>individual lives and personal problems than they are about sacrifices 25
>or 50 years ago, or the glory of America, or the dignity of our nation.
>Because that has enable us, in our good history, to be true liberators and
>spreaders of freedom.
>
>William Lippert
>The American University
>
William,

   You've touched on the whole point of studying history, anthropology,
culture: the old chestnut applies. Those who don't know their history are
doomed to repeat it.

   Personally I see some political trends that could grow to be alarming, but
by knowing how politics took over in Nazi Germany and militarism in Imperial
Japan, it's possible to sound the alarm, so to speak. However, to the degree
that the public doesn't know what you're talking about, you have few
touchstones to go on.

   In some ways, we are doomed to repeat new versions of history -- the
pendullum keeps swinging. At least we can make it less damaging, or to look
at the half-full glass, more refined.

   -- Jim

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:51:32 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES: Bio of an Italian Ace

>When the Germans attempted to
>integrate the ANR into the Luftwaffe, 1st Gruppo Caccia burned and
>destroyed their aircraft rather than serve under the Germans.  (2nd
>Gruppo Caccia drew weapons on their allies and escorted them off of
>the airfield!)  Since 1st Gruppo Caccia did not have any aircraft as
>a result of these actions, in November 1944, the 1st was sent to
>Germany to train with Bf 109Gs and returned to Italy in January 1945
>equipped with 54 Bf 109G-10s.  It was during this period that Visconti
>was promoted to Maggiore.
>

If I read this correctly  the first sentance says that the 1st Gruppo
Caccia destroyed their aircraft rather than serve under the Germans, but
then in the following sentance it says that the 1st Gruppo Caccia was sent
to Germany to train on Gustavs.  When and how did this change of heart
occur? TIA.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:08:23 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eighth

Scott C Stathis Sun, 20 Nov 1994 wrote:

...... a lot deleted....

>The squadron (858nd bomber squadron) was listed as inactive
>by late 1945. Having had thier last propaganda flight on
>Oct 23, 1945.

rest deleted.

Scott,

What were they propaganda bombing so long after
the end of the war?

Communists?

Hmmmmmm.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 22:24:10 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Alan!
>
>
>  A
> friend told me that a SS unit was
> > formed using a group of Indian POW's captured while fighting for the British.
> > Does anybody know if this is indeed true and if it is true, did
> they fight?
>
>     Yes, to this question. They were employed in the West in France,
> particularly in the area of the Invasion of Southern France.
>
There was a unit made up of Indians in the German Army but I think it was
a Wehrmacht and not an SS unit (although you are right in saying that the
Waffen SS had lots of "foreign" units).  I recall reading a book of
transcripts of Hitler's conferences ("Hitler Directs His War" or
similar), perhaps edited by Trevor Roper (sp?).  In one such conference
the TOE of this Indian unit is given and discussed.   However I don't
recall it being identified as a Waffen SS unit in that discussion.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:27:16 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN

        This morning on National Public Radio's Morning Edition, there
was a piece on the Enola Gay Exhibit and the controversy surrounding
it.  On four separate occasions, throughout this 3-4 minute piece, the
story stated that it was veterans groups against peace activists AND
academic historians/historians.  It is my understanding that there are a
majority of historians, academic or otherwise, who believe that the
exhibit was biased from the beginning.  Alas, it was National Public
Radio and I shouldn't really expect to get the truth!

Patrick Charles
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:26:17 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Uniforms: Pinks & Greens

OK guys help an ignorant dude here ;

Could anyone please DESCRIBE for me the normal outlay for what were called
"Pinks & Greens"?
-------------------------

As an aside ...................
I talked to one person about wearing what I termed, "Chocolates" and he
suggested Manion's of KS City, KS ... if I could afford THEIR pricey demands.

-------------------------

So, did these guys in WW2 wear khaki trousers, chocolate coat, khaki shirt, w/a
chocolate tie?

Yes? ... No?

It's a d--- snappy look, if I say so myself!

Jesse

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:44:27 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: war fiction and the "armed forces library"

> If anyone out there has knowledge or information sources on war
> fiction published at this time, or on war-time publishing restrictions of
> any kind, I would greatly appreciate your help. Does anyone know about
> the "armed forces library"? I'm finding it very difficult to obtain
> information from where I am.
>
> Jason

I know that condensed books and magazines were made available to the
troops in the field.  I have a copy of Conrad Heyden's _Der Fuehrer_
which is a softcover 4" X 6" book meant for troops overseas.

My uncle Rev (3rd Marine Div. on Iwo Jima) told me they got magazines
that were devoid of advertisements that were meant for the troops.
They just had the articles.  Ben Frank and John Ausland may be able
to provide better descriptions of these.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:51:12 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES: Bio of an Italian Ace

Ron Babuka <[email-masked]> writes:
>> When the Germans attempted to
>> integrate the ANR into the Luftwaffe, 1st Gruppo Caccia burned and
>> destroyed their aircraft rather than serve under the Germans.  (2nd
>> Gruppo Caccia drew weapons on their allies and escorted them off of
>> the airfield!)  Since 1st Gruppo Caccia did not have any aircraft as
>> a result of these actions, in November 1944, the 1st was sent to
>> Germany to train with Bf 109Gs and returned to Italy in January 1945
>> equipped with 54 Bf 109G-10s.  It was during this period that Visconti
>> was promoted to Maggiore.
>
> If I read this correctly  the first sentance says that the 1st Gruppo
> Caccia destroyed their aircraft rather than serve under the Germans, but
> then in the following sentance it says that the 1st Gruppo Caccia was sent
> to Germany to train on Gustavs.  When and how did this change of heart
> occur? TIA.

        The Luftwaffe backed down from integrating the ANR.  They were
still allies, though, so the 1st Gruppo needed aircraft to continue the
fight.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
You're a good man, Mulligan.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:28:30 -0500
From:    Mike Bechthold <[email-masked]>
Subject: Close Air Support in Normandy

I have been following the recent discussion on Allied vs. German armour
in the Second World War with a great deal of interest.  One issue that
keeps cropping up is the enduring myth of air power as the great
destroyer of tanks.  The British Typhoon and American Thunderbolt have
both become renowned for their supposed specialty as tank busters.  This
is largely incorrect.  As someone mentioned earlier in the week, the
evidence compiled during the war by British operational research teams
showed that the rocket-firing Typhoons had a great deal of trouble hitting
targets, especially small, hard to see tanks.  A report compiled in
November 1944 by the operational research sections of Second Tactical Air
Force and 21 Army Group entitled, "Rocket-firing Typhoons in Close
Support of Military Operations" came to the conclusion that to have a 50%
chance of hitting a target the size of a Panther would require 140
rockets (At eight rockets per aircraft that equalled 18 sorties).  In the
first two months of the Normandy Campaign, rocket-firing Typhoons
accounted for only 9 per cent of German tank casualties.  This compares
to ground-based armour piercing weapons which were responsible for of 60
per cent of all tank casualties.

Now this evidence is not meant to take away from the role played by
aircraft in beating the Germans.  I would argue that the effectiveness
attributed to tactical air operations is correct, just that the success
came from more intangible effects than the actual destruction of tanks.  The
complete air superiority of the Allies meant that a great deal of German
movements had to take place at night.  Those tanks and vehicles destroyed by
aircraft left a lasting impression on German crews.  There is no
doubt that when a rocket projectile hit a tank it would be destroyed.
There are many cases recorded when attacks by aircraft flushed tanks out
from hiding right into the waiting guns of the ground forces.  Bridges,
railways and roads were destroyed and disrupted.  A significant advantage was
gained from the reconnaissance gathered by aircraft while the Germans
enjoyed no such support.  The list goes on.

The battle of the Falaise Gap was a special case where ideal targets were
presented for aircraft.  Thousands of vehicles lined up nose to tail for
miles on end.  The pilots of the Ninth US Air Force and British Second
Tactical Air Force had a field day and undoubtably destroyed a great
amount of material.  However, such choice targets were not the norm.

Contrary to what John Terraine has said, air power was not decisive in
the Normandy campaign.  However, it did have a significant impact on the
battles and undoubtably made the job of the ground forces considerably
easier.

I hope this helps to clear up matters.

cheers,

Mike Bechthold
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:49:34 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50th Invasion Defenses

     Terry (and All!),

     This indeed is thought provoking, and also reminds me of some aspects
     of
     D-Day. I know we've discussed the actual numbers before, but I would
     like to be refreshed:

     >1. What were the expected casualty rates of the various assaults
     >(airborne and infantry) of D-Day? What did the numbers turn out to be
     >(through blessings of circumstance, divinity, guts and guns)?

     >2. How did the Japanese defense preparations compare with Germany's
     >Atlantic Wall? I was deeply impressed at the scope of the sheer
     >infrastructure described in Ambrose's =D-Day=. I know the personnel
     >and training were thin in those reaches of France, though the bunker
     >walls were thick enough to take 14" shells.

     >3. Any other comparison/contrasts that come to mind...

     What about the fact that unlike France, Belgium & Holland, every
     civilian in Japan (pardon the exaggeration) will be on the other side
     for this event?

     Steve New

     >Thanks,

     >-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:06:19 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Italian aircraft in german colors

While thumbing through _Italian Civil and Military Aircraft_ recently,
I noticed 2 pictures of Fiat fighters in German markings.  Does anyone
know if the Germans actually used Italian fighters?  My guess is that
they were either materiel captured after the armistice or were being
tested but I am open for an accurate assesment.
Thanks is advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:00:27 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support In Normandy

     Deleted, considerable text discussing the inaccuracy of HVAR rockets
     in destroying tanks.

     > Contrary to what John Terraine has said, air power was not decisive
     > in the Normandy campaign.  However, it did have a significant impact
     > on the battles and undoubtably made the job of the ground forces
     > considerably easier.

     > I hope this helps to clear up matters.

     > cheers,

     > Mike Bechthold
     > Department of History
     > Wilfrid Laurier University
     > Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
     > [email-masked]

     I'm afraid that your arguments do not support your conclusion that
     "...air power was not decisive > in the Normandy campaign...".  While
     I'll admit, If I had to kill a tank, that I wouldn't send a Typhoon as
     the first choice weapon, lets look where airpower was decisive in
     Normandy.

        1.  Interdiction missions.  Airpower was able to so badly disrupt
     the road and rail transport that massive reinforcements could not
     quickly be delivered to the front.  In addition, those forces that did
     arrive did so after traveling cross country, subject to repeated air
     attack, not fresh from a train ride from the rear area.

        2.  The heavy carpet bombing in preparation for the breakout from
     the beach area so weakened the defenders in the target area that the
     ground forces were offered almost no resistance.

        3.  Having overwhelming airpower at the Normandy invasion meant
     that the Luftwaffe had no measurable effect on the outcome.  Had the
     situation been reversed, and the Luftwaffe had control of the air, the
     invasion would have been stopped at the beaches.

     Steve L. New

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:54:11 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES: Bio of an Italian Ace

        The change of heart of 1 and 2 gruppi caccie came after protracted
negotiations (which stretched from August to mid-October), protests from
everyone in the RSI chain of command all the way up to Mussolini, and a change
in command for the Luftwaffe in Italy.  The old Luftwaffe commander had ordered
the attempted coup when the Italians would not voluntarily place thenselves
under direct German command.  His replacement recognized that the ANR fighter
units were performing well (they claimed roughly 240 Allied aircraft in '44-45,
the majority four-engined bomber types), and that by allowing them a degree of
autonomy he could defend northern Italy with Italian fighters, thereby freeing
up remaining German units for the urgently needed air defense of the Reich
itself.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:19:17 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Uniforms: Pinks & Greens

Hello, Jesse!

I think I can help.

> Could anyone please DESCRIBE for me the normal outlay for what were called
> "Pinks & Greens"?
> -------------------------

    Pinks: khaki slacks, khaki blouse with matching khaki garrison
cap. Tie was also khaki and a brown shirt. A sharp-looking uniform
which I will never understand why the army discontinued this uniform.

    Greens: Green blouse with contrasing light green or light brown
slacks with a khaki tie and light green or brown shirt. Also a very
nice looking uniform and was a great complement to the "pinks".

    I think the uniforms then were better looking than the ones used
now. What do you think?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:47:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN

Hello, Jim!

Great post.

>    In some ways, we are doomed to repeat new versions of history -- the
> pendullum keeps swinging. At least we can make it less damaging, or to look
> at the half-full glass, more refined.

    I think, however, that once one starts down that road, the result
is inexorable, and I don't think it can ever be less damaging,
because, as you point out, people or mankind forget the lessons of
the past.

    Thanks and have a Happy Thanksgiving!

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 13:28:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

Hello, Mike!

I will post that info to you on Mr. Juuitalianen on Monday. I got
tied up working on a presentation at the Public Library I am
scheduled to give on 11 Dec dealing with the Battle of the Bulge.

I finished it last night, and by the time I got to that point, it was
too late. Will get it to you. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:44:08 -0500
From:    Mike Bechthold <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support in Normandy

Concerning the message I posted earlier, I realized after I sent it that
the debate I had been following was on the Milhst list rather than this
one.  Sorry for any confusion I might have caused.  At least the note
wasn't off-topic :-)

Mike Bechthold

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:33:01 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  BB-63 USS Missouri

> There were five Montana Class ships but none of them ever had a
> keel laid down.  All were authorized on 19 Jul 40 and cancelled on
> 21 Jul 43.  They were to be built at 3 different shipyards

>From July 1940 to July 1943.... That's three years without doing any work.
I guess one reason is because most shipyards were busy building all the
new (by that time) Essex class carriers. 32 were ordered, but only 24
were completed. The remaining 8 were cancelled shortly after the war
(I think), two of them having keels already laid down.

BTW, the Essex class carriers were completed in a relatively short time
for this kind of ship (about 2 years for a ship, later reduced to 1).

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:13:46 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES:

        Whenever you get the chance to send that post is just fine by me,
Terry.  Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule.  Have a very
happy Thanksgiving.

Regards

Mike

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:35:08 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACES: Bio of an Italian Ace

        In response to the question regarding Joe's post on the bio
of Maj. Adriano Visconti, I'd also like to mention that the Me-109G's were
provided after the destruction of the 1o. Gruppo Caccia's original aircraft.
They were flying MC205's (and one squadron Fiat G55's) prior to that.  The
2nd Gruppo Caccia, originally in G55's, had already switched to the Me-109G
prior to August 1944.

        Regards and Happy Thanksgiving to all

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:44:37 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: war fiction and the "armed forces library"

Jason,

Perhaps this will help, although they may not cover the kind you are
interested in.  Mr Taylor works at our library here at UPS.

 AUTHOR       Taylor, Desmond, 1930-
 TITLE        The juvenile novels of World War II : an annotated bibliography /
                Desmond Taylor.
 PUB INFO     Westport, Conn. : Greenwood Press, 1994.
 PHYS DESC    x, 175 p. ; 25 cm.
 SUBJECTS     Children's stories --Bibliography.
              Young adult fiction --Bibliography.
              World war, 1939-1945 --Juvenile fiction --Bibliography.
 SERIES       Bibliographies and indexes in world literature, 0742-6801 ; no.
                44.

AUTHOR       Taylor, Desmond, 1930-
 TITLE        The novels of World War II : an annotated bibliography / Desmond
                Taylor, with the assistance of Philip E. Hager.
 PUB INFO     New York : Garland, 1993.
 PHYS DESC    2 v. (xiii, 889 p.) ; 23 cm.
 SUBJECTS     World War, 1939-1945 --Literature and the war --Bibliography.
              Fiction --20th century --Bibliography.
              War stories --Bibliography.
 ALT AUTHOR   Hager, Philip E.

At  9:11 PM 11/22/94 -0400, Jason Sebeslav wrote:
>I am in the initial stages of a project on pulp war fiction published
>during and shortly after the second world war. I'm thinking particularly
>of "dime novel" type war adventure books with flashy covers. I have one
>book (_Memo to a Firing Squad_) published in 1944 by Dell, and inside the
>front cover is a paragraph encouraging readers to send used books on to
>local post offices for shipment to troops overseas. I've also heard that
>the army "ok'd" a certain number of these kind of books for troop
>reading, and I'm quite interested in what criteria may have been used in
>judging a book's worth. I'm sure there are some 'propoganda' type arguments
>to be made here.
>
>If anyone out there has knowledge or information sources on war
>fiction published at this time, or on war-time publishing restrictions of
>any kind, I would greatly appreciate your help. Does anyone know about
>the "armed forces library"? I'm finding it very difficult to obtain
>information from where I am.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Jason

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:45:33 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY AGAIN

Hello, Lee!

I will offer a comment, since you are asking.

  We know now that this assumption is largely incorrect, and that
> the Soviet Army developed into an extremely powerful force, capable of
> beating the Germans at their own game.

    I would say that the Soviet army started out being incompetent,
but that was not the Army's fault. That goes back to its utter
politicization by Stalin and from the terrible purge of 1938 in which
35.000 officers were eliminated.

    The Soviets learned quickly however. Once Stalin let the Army do
its thing, if you will, it did develop into a formidable army.
However, don't be misled by the result of the war. The Soviet Army
leadership in the field, IMHO, left much to be desired. They were
extremely wasteful of manpower even when these field armies were well-
supplied with men and equipment. To my mind, good generalship is an
accomplishment of the primary task with minimal loss of life, and if
this is a standard, the Russians came up short.

    Your thoughts or any one else's?

        Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:52:31 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: MISC

I'd like to beg Joe to indulge in my wishing all of you fine people the
very best of Thanksgiving. It is people like youse guys what give us
something to be grateful of on this day of gratitude.

Another item on the grateful list.

Thanx for the posts,
                                                        Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 16:20:22 PST
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE YOUN

>Hello, Jim!
>Great post.
Danke!

>    Thanks and have a Happy Thanksgiving!
>
>    Terry
>

And to you! And all the rest of you out there, eat hardy and enjoy the
sentiment of the day!

My personal thanks to all vets out there.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:39:41 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: query:how to define WWII

Emmanuel,

Have to rush this response, as I'm on my way out, but, basically,
I see the wars through 1870 as wars for the unification of Germany
along the "Kleindeutsche" Prussia-centered model, within the
territory of the former German states. World War I moved that
issue to another level, the role of a unified Germany within Europe.

In a larger sense, you are right. Most of the wars (and revolutions)
from 1830 on were conflicts of national identity, and these questions
have still not been resolved. Laurence LaFore (Sp.?) has done a fine
book, THE LONG FUSE, in which he argues that WWI began because the
Austro-Hungarian Empire was essentially a colonial state *within*
the boundaries of Europe, as opposed to transoceanic, as the British
and French were, and that the Balkan situation was thus, in effect,
a colonial war of liberation.

More later, perhaps.

Regards,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:41:06 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR FICTION AND TH

One of the expeditionary packages which accompanied us on the way to an
invasion had a number of wooden boxes filled with paperbacks, chosen for us by,
I think, the American Booksellers Association, or whatever, and there were all
sorts of titles, fiction and nonfiction, classics and otherwise. The were
paperpacks which fitted nicely into our dungaree pockets, and en route to the
target, there were just almost the entire contingent on each ship, up on deck,
either reading these books, or playing pinochle, cribbage (the boards were
provided as were the cards), or poker and hearts. Many a man learned the
reading habit on these trips just to take away the tedium of a long trip. The
popularity of these so-called pocket books undoubtedly was the impetus for the
current multi-billion dollar pocketbook publishing industry. There is the story
of the young Marine, killed on the beaches of Iwo Jima, with a copy of "Our
Hearts Were Young and Gay" sticking out of his back pocket. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 21:57:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: query:how to define WWII

DHALEVY suggested

  > ...the idea came up that WWII could be looked at as the second half of
  > WWI (and perhaps even before) and the would could speak of the period
  > 1895-1945 as the 50 year war...

  A familiar concept in European history.  But a continuous "World War"
hypothesis ought to include the Pacific. Herewith is an argument to that
effect, although much weaker than the European case:

  During both wars Japan's policy was opportunistic empire-building while
certain European powers were helpless. (In fact, Japanese expansion in Asia
began in the 1870s, the same era as Bismarckian Germany.)  In 1915 Japan's
"21 demands" were an attempt to gain control of China by diplomacy, whereas
in 1931-1945 it used force.  In 1914 it seized the German colonies of
Shantung and Micronesia and in 1918 it occupied parts of Siberia.  In 1940-
1942 it seized the British, Dutch and French colonies of southeast Asia.
  (Now the argument gets more esoteric.)  During and after the first war
many of Japan's ambitions were thwarted by the United States.  In 1917 Japan
backed off the 21 Demands due to Wilson's diplomatic and economic pressure,
e.g., withholding steel plate for shipbuilding.  In 1919 it acceded to his
demands to demilitarize the ex-German islands as a League of Nations
Mandate. In 1922 its naval ship and base expansion was cut by the US-
inspired Washington Treaty.  In the second war, of course, the US thwarted
Japan by far more vigorous means.
  Well, that's it.  I acknowledge it's a fragile case that can be demolished
by pointing to the vast differences between the eras.  But it was fun
trying.
  In 1914-18 Japan chose the winning side.  It avoided heavy fighting and
prospered as a junior "arsenal of democracy." That would have been exactly
the right choice for Japan in 1941-45.
  Too bad.

Edward Miller     Stamford, CT   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:29:45 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY AGAIN

Hello Terry!

>
>     The Soviets learned quickly however. Once Stalin let the Army do
> its thing, if you will, it did develop into a formidable army.
> However, don't be misled by the result of the war. The Soviet Army
> leadership in the field, IMHO, left much to be desired. They were
> extremely wasteful of manpower even when these field armies were well-
> supplied with men and equipment. To my mind, good generalship is an
> accomplishment of the primary task with minimal loss of life, and if
> this is a standard, the Russians came up short.
>
>     Your thoughts or any one else's?
>
>         Terry

I agree with your observation that the Soviet Comand was very wasteful,
indeed that was one of Zhukov's more memorable characteristics.  However,
I think our standards of acceptable losses are very different from the
Soviets.  I know its a very obvious point but I think its important one to
remember.

Also, its my understanding that the heaviest wastage occured in the early
years, and as the war developed, Stalin and his generals sought to use
their manpower more economically.  The relatively cautious, set-piece
type offensives such as Kursk.  Granted it is still attritional and
wasteful by western standards, but it is a vast improvement over the kind
of thinking that led to the great encirlement battles of 1941.

Be patient with me, I've only recently completed my first major
assignment on thr Eastern Front and my knowledge of this area is still in
its infancy.

Semper Fi(With great repect for Marines past and present, this was also the
motto of the West Nova Scotia Regiment in which I served for a time.)

Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:33:54 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Close Air Support in Normandy

Hello Mike B!

Great post on Tac Air, even if it wasn't meant for us.

Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:13:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 24 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 24 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 21 B-24s bomb the warehouse area and
docks at Hankow, China. 3 others hit the Haiphong, French Indochina area. 22
B-25s bomb a storage area near Lashio, Burma, targets of opportunity in the
Hankow, China area, and the towns of Wanling and Wan Lai-Kam, Burma, and
Siangtan, and Wuchang, China. 120+ P-40s, P-38s and P-51s on armed
reconnaissance attack many targets of opportunity in E Burma and SW and SE
China, concentrating on river and rail traffic and supplies at Chefang,
Hengshan, and the Sinshih-Changsha, China area.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 32 P-47s fly close support
strikes in the Pinwe and Bhamo sectors; 50 P-47s attack troops and supply
areas at Panma, Hpa-Hpen, Nawng-Sang, Kawlin, Wahkyet, Kawngai, and in the
Pintha area, 8 damage bridges at Meza, Namhkai, and Hsenwi while 10 others
hit Lashio Airfield; 6 B-25s pound the storage and ferry area at Meza and 4
damage approaches to the Namhkai and Hsenwi road bridges. 323 transport
sorties are flown to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather cancels all operations
except for 3 XIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional) fighters which fly a
night intruder mission in Saarbrucken, Zweibrucken, and Homburg/Saar areas of
Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): P-38s and P-51s fly photo and
weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s, in support of the
British Eighth Army, bomb defenses in the Faenza area; bad weather restricts
fighter-bombers to 2 missions which damage a road bridge and cut rail line S
of Modena.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 2 B-24s from Saipan Island on a shipping
reconnaissance attack vessels at Haha Jima and Chichi Jima Islands. 3 B-24s
from Guam Island on armed reconnaissance bomb Marcus Island. 14 Saipan
Island-based P-47s strafe landing ground on Pagan Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): The XXI Bomber Command flies its first
mission against Japan; the objective is Tokyo; the 111 B-29s are led by 73d
Bombardment Wing (Very Heavy) Commanding General, Brigadier General Emmett
O'Donnell Jr piloting DAUNTLESS DOTTY, copiloted by Major Robert K Morgan,
erstwhile pilot of the famed B-17, MEMPHIS BELLE; 35 B-29s bomb the primary
target, the Musashino aircraft plant; 50 bomb the secondary target, the urban
area and docks; 17 abort enroute; the remainder are unable to bomb due to
mechanical difficulties; 1 B-29 crashes off Honshu Island when a fighter rams
the bomber, shearing off the elevator and right horizontal stabilizer,
becoming the first XXI Bomber Command B-29 lost to Japanese action; 1 other
ditches after running out of fuel; B-29 gunners claim 7 aircraft downed.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s bomb AA positions and targets of opportunity at Camp Downes
and Panalisan Point and US fighters attack and destroy several aircraft over
Carigara Bay and the Leyte Island area; B-24s hit AA positions and other
targets at Matina Airfield on Mindanao Island; units arriving on Leyte
Island: 25th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, at Dulag from Biak Island with F-5s; 65th Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), at Tacloban from Owi,
Schouten Islands with B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

24/0113Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:39:46 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: HELPING THE

Thanks, Terry, and the same to you and yours. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:40:53 -0500
From:    Oliver Bonham-Carter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

> Not only was there an Indian SS unit, there was an ENGLISH SS unit, although
> it was even smaller than the Indian one, and was comprised for the most part
> of common criminals.
>
> There were also French, Dutch, Belgian, Italian, Bosnian, Danish, and other
> foreign SS units.

I don't understand, why would there be SS groups formed out of non-German
peoples? How would the French SS react while fight French forces and the
same with the others. Would they even know they were fighting their own
or were the French SS (and the others) solders trators?
Thank you for your time.

[email-masked]
 "...So the bartender says "Hey, that's not a DUCK!"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:50:18 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: INVASION DEFENSE

Somewhere in the mess in my office is an appendix to the Marine V Amphibious
Corps War Diary for either October or November 1944. It contains the exact
order of battle on Kyushu at the end of the war, including types and numbers of
weapons, and all the other elements of OOB, such as strength, equipment,
location, disposition, organization, and movement. When I last saw it, the
figures were pretty impressive and they included both fighter and bomber
aircraft as well as kamikazes. I should have brought this up long ago to
silence those revisionists who insist that only a paltry 30 or 40 thousand
casualties would have resulted in an invasion of Japan. I promise to come up
with this as soon as I can. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:52:51 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY AGAIN

You know, I am amazed at how the meanings of sayings or phrases change over
time. In my war, WWII, the phrase "Semper Fi," was a cynical comment by a
one-way individual. It was "Semper Fi, Mac. I've got mine," or "Haul up the
ladder, Jack. I'm on board." Now we all know that the motto of the Marine Corps
is "Semper Fidelis,"--always faithful, and for many it has deep meaning. But I
thought that I would just indicate what "Semper Fi" once connoted. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 22:21:22 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY AGAIN

Hello Mr. Frank

On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> You know, I am amazed at how the meanings of sayings or phrases change over
> time. In my war, WWII, the phrase "Semper Fi," was a cynical comment by a
> one-way individual. It was "Semper Fi, Mac. I've got mine," or "Haul up the
> ladder, Jack. I'm on board." Now we all know that the motto of the Marine Corps
> is "Semper Fidelis,"--always faithful, and for many it has deep meaning. But I
> thought that I would just indicate what "Semper Fi" once connoted. Ben Frank
>
That's interesting.  You don't happen to know why or how it developed such a
meaning, do you?

I know the Marine Corps has used the motto for many years.  As for my old
unit, the West Novies, it wasn't formed until 1936, it was at that point
that we aquired it.  Just as a side note.  One of the units amalgamated
into the Novies in '36 was the 69th Annapolis Valley Regiment.  It
indirectly traces its lineage to the French militia raised to aid the
Garrison of Fort Anne in Nova Scotia in the early seventeenth century.

Sorry guys, I know thats off topic a bit, but its a point of pride in the
unit.

Semper Fi

Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:41:53 -0800
From:    ALEXANDER C MALCOLM <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

Another Hollywood star who served in World War II was Lee Marvin (Dirty
Dozen, Big Red One, etc.). He was a beach-storming Marine in the Pacific
theatre.

Also James Doohan ("Scotty" on Star Trek) apparently lost one of his
fingers on D-Day.  Legend has it, No matter how many episodes of Star
Trek you watch, you'll never see all 4 fingers on one of Scotty's hands.

                                Alexander

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End of WWII-L Digest - 22 Nov 1994 to 23 Nov 1994
*************************************************