Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 Nov 1994 to 26 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 00:00:21 -0500

There are 25 messages totalling 1410 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Spitfire vs Mustang (3)
  2. ARC: Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge.
  3. query:how to define WWII
  4. Eighth (2)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 11-26-94
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-NOV-1944
  7. Waffen-SS (4)
  8. the SS and NATO
  9. Spitfire v/s Mustang
 10. Hollywood in World War II (4)
 11. Fighter Aces (Finnish, etc)
 12. Hungarian Armour in World War 2
 13. Re[2]: Hungarian Armour in World War 2
 14. [INF] USAAF 26 NOV 44
 15. [INF] USAAF 27 NOV 44
 16. [INF] USAAF 28 NOV 44

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 25 Nov 1994 23:14:50 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> I'm not sure what the limitations on the spitfire were.  The Mustang and
> Spitfire both shared the same engine- a Rolls Royce "Merlin".  In fact
> the mustang was a flop in it's first development with an american

Not exactly.

The P-51A/A-36 Apache was not a success at high altitude.  The Allison
engine, much preferred by many pilots, was a very smooth and well behaved
engine.  It was, however, not well suited to high altitude work.

As a low-level, especially ground support aircraft, it succeeded quite well.
The A-36 was also very much enjoyed by its pilots.  The major problem for
a ground support/low-level attack aircraft, of course, was the inline
engine -- any inline engine -- as it was much more susceptibtle to ground
fire than a radial engine.

Where it wasn't a success immediately was it's intention as a long-range
high altitude fighter.  That was solved by the Merlin as well as a few
other changes.

> engine.  Then some bright soul said "what if" and stuck a british engine
> in the mustang and it came alive.  It was extremely fuel efficient and
> had a main tank, an auxiary (sp) tank and a drop tank.  Between them they
> could fly from england to germany and back.  Goering said when he
> "saw Mustangs over Berlin (he) knew the jig was up."

The latter quote is, I believe, more of a legend than anything else.  I'm
not sure if it's ever shown up in print.  I still use it (as legend) on
occasion, but I'd like to know if it was ever really said...

The main reason the Spitfire was a defensive weapon was range.  The "normal"
range of a Spitfire varied from model to model, but ranged from a low of 349
miles to a maximum of 710 miles.  Only the photo-recon aircraft could
exceed 1,000 miles, typically anywhere from 1,200 to around 1,500 miles.

The Mustang's range was much greater.  The Spitfire never really had the
design to be a long range fighter, so it never saw service as one.

>
> On Fri, 25 Nov 1994, David Rising wrote:
>
> > A quick question. Why could the American Mustang penetrate so far into
> > German airspace, while the British Spitfire seemed to be confined to a
> > purely defensive role?  My question is based on observations of both
> > aircraft, which appear to be roughly the same size.
> > Gordon Stock on David Rising's e-mail
> >
> > Also, I remember a few months ago a story that somebody posted about
> > American planes invading Swiss airspace during ww-ii and there was a
> > comical (if not anecdotal) story about it. If whoever originally posted
> > it wouldn't mind posting again, I'd be appreciative.
> > David Rising
> >

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:25:02 EST
From:    "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge.

For those interested, the U.S. Army "Green Book", Ardennes: Battle of the
Bulge, is available at byrd.  So far all we have is the text, no pix or
maps, but that may be changing soon. I'm including the "how to get there"
file with this posting.

Path: /pub/history/military/wwii/Battle.of.Bulge/Green.Book

Larry J
:
[email-masked]; Co-Mod.: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

How to access byrd.mu.wvnet.edu via WWW or gopher.

Web clients may access this site at:
   http://history.cc.ukans.edu/history/WWW_history_main.html

Below is the path I use to access byrd via the gopher at Purdue U.

Academic Resources on the Internet (by Subject)/
Academic Resources on the Internet (by Subject)
Humanities / Social Sciences Reading Room/
History Network <TEL>
Login: history
Resources: Historical Data Bases
BYRD: Historical Archives (ftp byrd.mu.mvnet.edu) (US)

FTP vistors should go to /pub/history

alternative sites (mirrors)

sunsite.unc.edu
/pub/academic/history/marshall/

president.oit.unc.edu
/pub/academic/history/marshall/

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 05:53:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: query:how to define WWII

Mike Turton wrote

  > There was no way Japan could have fought on the democratic side in WWII
  > as  Miller suggested, though.  They'd already been making war on China
  > since  1931.

Here's my scenario:  In 1941 Japan recognizes the futility of fighting
America and agrees to U.S. negotiating terms.  It renounces the Tripartite
Pact.  It withdraws from Indochina and from China, perhaps over a few years.
The U.S. lifts the embargo and resumes normal trade. Japan prospers from war
exports and shipping for the Allies and Soviets. Its Zero fighters and
warships are welcomed into Allied service. Eventually the US goes to war
against Germany and Japan does, too.  It contributes mainly naval forces, as
in WWI. At the end of the war a rich, victorious Japan plays a key
diplomatic role in decolonizing Asia. It expands its economic influence into
the grateful former colonies and Nationalist China by trade and investment.
With its powerful army and navy it is the dominant regional power, deftly
balancing off the Americans and Soviets. Prewar ambitions are achieved by
1951, and then some.

Hey, you never know...

Edward Miller  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 02:26:22 -0500
From:    Scott C Stathis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eighth

>
> Scott C Stathis Sun, 20 Nov 1994 wrote:
>
> ...... a lot deleted....
>
> >The squadron (858nd bomber squadron) was listed as inactive
> >by late 1945. Having had thier last propaganda flight on
> >Oct 23, 1945.
>
> rest deleted.
>
> Scott,
>
> What were they propaganda bombing so long after
> the end of the war?
>
> Communists?
>
> Hmmmmmm.
>
> Robert Hohlt, Jr.

   I'm not really sure Robert, the book I am using is "The Mighty Eigth,"
by Roger Freeman. The info I gave was in a very brief history of the
squadron in the back of the book. However if I had to guess they might
have been bombing a few remain pockets of Nazi resistance which as we
can see today does not breakdown easily or you could be right they might
have been bombing Russian held East Germany.

                                Sorry I can't give a better answer! 8--(

Scott
Umass-Amherst
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-26-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/26 Sun. Carrier BON HOMME RICHARD (CV-31), is commissioned at
           New York, N. Y.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Transport NO. 161, by Army aircraft, Andaman Sea
              16 d. 00'N., 97 d. 00'E.
             Minesweeper NO. 18, by Army aircraft, South China
              Sea,
              16 d. 52'N., 108 d. 38'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 04:40:48 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-NOV-1944

On 27-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the 9th Army sector, units of the 2nd Armoured Division
finish mopping up in the Merzenhausen area. The 29th Division completes the
same type operation towards the river Rur. Mopping up also occurs in the
Weiseweiler-Frenz area, which the 104th Division (US 1st Army) reached the
day before. In the 3rd Army sector, the 10th Armoured Division breaks off
its operations towards Saarburg, in order to dislodge the Germans that have
filtered into Tettingen. The 95th Division is making very good progress and
come within a mile or two of the German frontier. The 80th Division enters
St Avold. The US 7th Army is ordered to turn north to support the 3rd Army
in capturing the Saar basin. The 100th Division arrives in the Saarburg
sector. The 3rd Division replaces the French 2nd Armoured Division at
Strasbourg.

Palau Islands - Hostilities finally end on Peliliu after bitter guerilla
warfare. Some 13,500 Japanese have lost their lives defending the Palau
Islands. The Americans of the 81st Infantry Division and the 1st Marines
have lost 1,792 killed and over 8,000 wounded.

Philippines (Leyte) - The Americans counter-attack all along the front with
the objective of capturing Ormoc. The 7th Division is attacking north on
the west coast. The Japanese are getting ready to launch a powerful
offensive (Operation Wa) with the object of recapturing the airfield in the
area of Burauen. The battleship Colorado and light cruisers St Louis and
Montpelier are damaged by Japanese suicide attacks in Leyte Gulf.

The Homefront
-------------
Cordell Hull Resigns - Secretary of State Cordell Hull, 73, has resigned
because of illness. President Roosevelt has appointed Under Secretary of
State Edward R. Stettinius to replace Hull. Hull completes a career that
has included heading the State Department under the entire Roosevelt
presidency, 22 years in the House of Representatives and two years as
Senator from Tennessee.

Opera Season Begins - The sixtieth season of the Metropolitan Opera in
New York has begun with the presentation of Gounod's "Faust".

"Holy Year" Planned - Vatican City sources say Pope Pius XII plans to
proclaim immediately after the war "a holy year for the purification of the
world" from all the crimes committed during the conflict.

Army & Navy
-----------
Where Are The Army Nurses? - It has become apparent that as casualty lists
expand, that there may not be enough nurses to go around. More than 150,000
soldiers are now in hospitals in the US. There has been a 300% increase in
the number of sick and wounded since July. In the Army Nurse Corps there are
some 40,000 women; 27,000 of them are stationed overseas. The Army says it
needs at least 1,000 more overseas. The 13,000 left in the US are also too
few; at least 10,000 more are needed. The main problem seems to be a lack of
interest of civilian nurses to enter the military. Congresswomen Frances
Bolton warns nurses after a trip to the European front: "If you do no
respond, then we on Capital Hill will be forced to find some way, because we
will have our men cared for."

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica and "Time" magazine.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 25 Nov 1994 22:40:14 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

>
> Christopher Morton <[email-masked]> writes:
>
> > As for the Charlemagne division, there was always considerable pro-Nazi
> > sentiment in France.  Remember, the French were sending the Germans Jews they
> > didn't even ask for.
>
> I hope nobody will fall for this.

I suppose it depends upon how you define "fall for".

> French pro-nazi sentiment was never "considerable" in any sense of the word.
> I am not a very nationalist Frenchman and occasionally extremely critical
> of my country, but I can not let such statements slip by.
>

I direct you to the article on Miterrand and French collaboration in general
in a recent issue of the "New York Review of Books".

> ruled the State at the time. Calling them "The French" is a gross error, and
> can be compared  with calling the KKK "The Americans". I am myself of a
> partly Jewish family and know no French Jews who view the French people
> as "considerably" pro-Nazi or antisemitic.
>
I think that they can as fairly be called the French as those who deported the
Japanese-Americans can be called the Americans.

> To let you judge how confused matters were, a Jew relative of mine whose
> brother died in Barkhausen concentration camp in 1942 applauded Petain in
> Lyon in mid-1944. This shows how confused the French were.

I think that some were more "confused" than others.  Many knew exactly what
they were doing.

> Remember that the French were predominantly anti-German at the time. Deat,
> Doriot and other French Nazis were sponsored by the Germans and never enjoyed
> great popular support.
>
This is a matter of contention, hardly settled.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 08:57:16 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: the SS and NATO

Hi Arnaud!

>Yes, I too have seen this argument that "the SS was the ancestor of NATO".
>In pro-nazi litterature (a book about the SS Wallonie Brigade and Degrelle).
>This is a recurrent theme in post-war pro-Nazi literature, the SS is
>described as "the First European multi-national army protecting civilized
>Europe from the Soviets".

I did a little digging to see where I could find the reference about NATO
and the SS.  I found it in Alan Clark's BARBAROSSA in a footnote on page 395.
It sounds a lot like what you are referring to:
        "After the war former SS Generaloberst Hausser declared, 'The SS
was really the NATO Army in prototype, in ideal.'"

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 09:01:06 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spitfire v/s Mustang

The Mustang was able to best the Spitfire (and every other fighter
in WWII) in range because of the initial decisions that went into
each aircrafts design.

The Spitfire, initially designed in 1936, was intended to be a
point defense interceptor, built to protect the home island from
bomber attack.  The three major keys to its design were speed,
maneuverability, and firepower.  It was practically the smallest
design that could be wrapped around eight .303 cal machine guns.
There wasn't room enough in the aircraft to provide large amounts
of internal fuel, nor could the design accomodate large amounts of
extra fuel from an aerodynamic standpoint.

The Mustang, designed in 1940, was able to take advantage of
recent combat experience that the Spitfire's designers didn't have
access to.  When it comes to range, three design decisions were
made that gave the Mustang it's advantage:

      1.  The aircraft was designed to be able to carry
significantly more internal fuel than contemporary fighters.

      2.  Based on the A-36 experience, the aircraft was stressed
to carry heavier underwing loads than most of it's contemporaries,
allowing more external fuel to be carried if the mission called
for it.

      3.  The laminar flow wing used on the Mustang was more
efficient than those used on it's contemporaries, allowing the
Mustang to go further on a gallon of fuel than they could.

The following is a series of excerpts from a series of files
(P51.1 through P51.10) by Joe Baugher, and available at BYRD, that
go into greater detail.

Steve L. New

..

In April of 1940, Kindelberger ("Dutch" Kindelberger, president
of North American Aircract Co.) was summoned by the British Air
Purchasing Commision and asked to manufacture the Curtiss Hawk 87
(P-40D) under license for the RAF. Kindelberger countered that NAA
could do better than that airplane and that they could design a
REAL fighter in the same time that it would take to put the P-40
into production.  The British commission felt that they could take
Kindelberger at his word, and on April 10, 1940 they accepted his
proposal on the condition that the first prototype be ready in 120
days.  The design was assigned the company project name of Model
NA-73.

..

A special NACA laminar flow wing profile was adopted for the Mustang.
This was an aerofoil which had a thickness that kept on increasing far
beyond the usual location, i.e., to 50 percent chord rather than the
usual 20 percent.  These profiles had little camber, the undersurface
being almost a mirror image of the upper.  This wing was much more
"slippery" than the old profiles, and provided lesser aerodynamic drag
at high speeds than did more conventional aerofoils.  However, it also
had less lift at low speeds, so the NA-73X had to have large and
powerful flaps to keep landing speeds from being impractically high.

The British also specified that a liquid-cooled inline engine be used,
and the Allison V-1710 twelve-cylinder Vee was the only American-built
engine which fit the bill.  The Allison V-1710 was a little bigger
than the Merlin, slightly lighter, and similar in power at low
altitudes.  However, at higher altitudes the Allison suffered from a
rapid drop in power in comparison to the Merlin.  NAA briefly
considered using a supercharger to improve high-altitude performance,
but ruled against it on the grounds of a tight schedule.

..

The newly-arrived Mustang was quickly recognized as being the best
fighter aircraft yet to be delivered from the USA.  It was found to be
superior to the Kittyhawk, Airacobra and Spitfire in both speed and
maneuverability at low altitudes.  Maximum speed was 382 mph at 13,000
feet.  The armament of four 0.50-inch and four 0.30-inch machine guns
was heavy and effective.  Handling was excellent.  The range was
nearly double that of any RAF single-engined fighter.  It was 25 to 45
mph faster than the Spitfire V at altitudes up to 15,000 feet.  The
problem was the rapid fall-off in performance at altitudes above
15,000 feet, caused by its low-altitude Allison engine.  This was more
than just a minor deficiency, since most aerial combat over Europe at
that time was taking place at medium to high altitudes.  Consequently,
it was decided that the Mustang I could be best used for low-level
tactical reconnaissance and ground attack, where full advantage could
be taken of its exceptional low-altitude performance.

..

Tactical reports from RAF army cooperation units were laudatory.  The
Mustang I and IAs were able to take an incredible amount of battle
damage.  The long range of the Mustang made it an excellent tactical
reconnaissance aircraft and its heavy armament made it effective
against most ground targets.  In 18 months of operation 200
locomotives and 200 barges were destroyed or severely damaged, and an
undetermined number of enemy aircraft were destroyed on the ground.
This was accomplished at the expense of only one Mustang being shot
down by enemy fighters, five lost to flak, and two vanishing with no
record of their fate.  At low altitudes, the Mustang was faster than
either the Bf 109 or the Fw 190.  At sea level, the Mustang could run
away from any enemy aircraft.  The flaps were very useful in combat to
reduce the turning radius.

..

The next Army contract for Mustangs consisted of an order on August
24, 1942 for 1200 NA-99 versions with the USAAF designation of P-51A.
Unlike the A-36A, these aircraft from the start were meant to be
fighters, not bombers.  The first P-51A flew on February 3, 1943, and
the first deliveries began the next month.  In the event, only 310
P-51As were actually built between March and May of 1943 before
production was switched over to the Merlin-powered P-51B.

These aircraft had the same external stores capability as the A-36A
Invader, but had no dive brakes and no fuselage guns, the armament
being limited to four 0.50-inch machine guns mounted in the wings.
The inboard pair had 350 rpg and the outboard pair had 280 rpg.  An
under wing load consisted of two 250 lb, 325, or 500-pound bombs.
Maximum takeoff weight rose to 10,600 pounds, but maximum ferry range
was increased to 2350 miles.  The P-51A had the Allison V-1710-81
engine rated at 1200 hp for takeoff and 1125 hp at 18,000 feet, with
significantly better high-altitude performance than the V-1710-39 of
the P-51.

..

800 P-51B-5-NAs were built, all of them powered by the V-1650-3.  In
the pursuit of still more range, a P-51B was experimentally fitted
with an extra 85 US gallon self-sealing fuel tank behind the pilot's
seat, bringing the total fuel to 419 US gallons (including 2 drop
tanks).  This extra fuel made the directional stability of the Mustang
quite poor, so that the pilot would have to spend the first hour or so
concentrating on keeping his airplane pointed in the right direction
until this new tank was finally empty.  The last 550 P-51B-5-NAs were
fitted with this extra tank, becoming P-51B-7-NAs.  Some earlier
P-51Bs and Cs were modified in the field to accommodate this tank.  In
service, however, the directional instability caused by the presence
of a full fuel tank behind the pilot's seat was a hazard for new or
inexperienced pilots, and the tank was usually restricted to 65 US
gallons.  This extra tank, nevertheless, still made a crucial
difference in combat radius, and it was standard equipment in all
future production versions.

..

Specs of P-51B-1-NA:

One 1620 hp Packard Merlin V-1650-3 twelve cylinder Vee liquid-cooled
engine.  Maximum speed was 388 mph at 5000 feet, 406 mph at 10,000
feet, 427 mph at 20,000 feet, 430 mph at 25,000 feet, 440 mph at
30,000 feet.  Range on internal fuel was 550 miles at 343 mph at
25,000 feet, 810 miles at 253 mph at 10,000 feet.  With maximum
external fuel, maximum range was 2200 miles at 244 mph.  An altitude
of 5000 feet could be attained in 1.8 minutes, 10,000 feet in 3.6
minutes, 20,000 feet in 7 minutes.  Service ceiling was 42,000 feet.
Weights were 6840 lbs empty, 9200 lbs normal loaded, 11,200 lbs
maximum loaded.  Wingspan was 37 feet 0 1/4 inches, length was 32 feet
3 inches, height 8 feet 8 inches, and wing area was 233 square feet.

..

Readers may recall the problems with the installation of the 85-gallon
tank in the rear fuselage of the P-51B and its adverse effects on the
directional stability.  Things got still worse for the P-51D, in which
the cutting down of the top line of the rear fuselage caused a lot of
keel area to be lost.  In order to provide for better directional
stability, a dorsal fin was added ahead of the rudder very early on in
the production run of the P-51D.  Some of the earlier P-51Ds (plus a
few P-51Bs) were retrofitted with this dorsal fin.  The extra weight
and drag caused by this fin was quite small, but it helped a lot in
improving the directional stability, especially when the rear fuselage
fuel tank was full.

..

Sources:

  United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and
  Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.

  Classic Warplanes: North American P-51 Mustang, Bill Gunston, Gallery
  Books, 1990.

Joe Baugher       AT&T Bell Laboratories    2000 North Naperville Road
                  Naperville, Illinois 60566-7033.   (708) 713-4548

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 08:23:33 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Regarding non-German Waffen-SS formations, I can't wait until the
discussion reaches the role of the 21st SS Division "Skanderbeg" composed
of Europe's most Aryan Ubermensches, the Albanians (ohboyohboyohboy).
Well, okay, maybe I CAN wait....

Mike, I haven't seen any comments from you about the Hungarian SS yet.  I
hope you're not waiting until I start rambling on about the Rumanian
SS-Grenadier Regiments, 'cause I wasn't planning on doing that until
AFTER someone else brings up the BULGARIAN SS-Regiment.

"Europe's first all-European Army".... yeah, right.  I suppose the Roman
Legions comprised of Romans, Gauls, Britons, Saxons, Byzantines, Arabs,
Greeks, Dacians, etc etc etc didn't count, hunh?

(and let's remember who the Dacians were-- GO TEAM! RAH!)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 08:36:20 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

On Fri, 25 Nov 1994, Pulp-Fiction wrote:

> It doesnt take much sense to figure out that :
> (a) The CO's were ALWAYS GERMANS, in these so-called "non-german" SS
> units, and

You mean all this time Leon DeGrelle was actually a GERMAN?  Wow....

> (b) The fought in countries other than where they were recurited, except
> Vlasov's forces

so units such as SS Divisions "HANDSCHAR" and "KAMA" which were raised in
Yugoslavia and only operated in Yugoslavia don't count?

(to say nothing of where SS "SKANDERBEG" was)

                                           Glad To Be Of (annoying) Service!

                                           Greg Kelley

                                           St. Paul Public Library
                                           [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 10:08:06 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

ALEXANDER C MALCOLM <[email-masked]> writes;

>Another Hollywood star who served in World War II was Lee Marvin (Dirty
>Dozen, Big Red One, etc.). He was a beach-storming Marine in the Pacific
>theatre.

>Also James Doohan ("Scotty" on Star Trek) apparently lost one of his
>fingers on D-Day.  Legend has it, No matter how many episodes of Star
>Trek you watch, you'll never see all 4 fingers on one of Scotty's hands.

Didn't Scotty get in trouble from flying a plane in a slalom between telephone
poles?

Also, some tV show this weekend said that Abbot & Costello's comedic war
movies were portrayed by the Japanese as actual US army life. Does anybody
know if this is REALLY true?

Allways liked Bud & Lou
                                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 09:30:05 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fighter Aces (Finnish, etc)

Seeing several comments regarding Finnish fighter aces, just thought I'd
throw this title out--

ACES WILD  by Robert A. Winston  Holiday House, 1941.  320p ; il (dr)

a first hand account of one of the pilots that shuttled Brewster
Buffaloes from the US to Finland during the Russo-Finnish War; some
interesting comments regarding their use, value, etc.  Winston and his
compatriots had quite an experience working their way back down western
Europe during the German invasion of France, finally reaching Portugal
and from their the USA.

Worth tracking down from your local library.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 09:36:34 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hungarian Armour in World War 2

Mike (and anyone else)

I've access to several journal articles on Hungarian tanks during the
war.  If there's any interest in this sort of thing, I'm willing to
transcribe & post to the list.

"The Honved on the Ostfront"  by Guiseppe Finisio  (AFV News, 1985)

"Toldi: A Brave Little Warrior" by Guiseppe Finisio (AFV News, 1986)

"Hungarian Armour during World War 2: the Turan tank and its derivatives"
           by JCM Probst    (Airfix Magazine, 1976)

Anyone interested?

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 12:59:16 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, ALEXANDER C MALCOLM wrote:

> Also James Doohan ("Scotty" on Star Trek) apparently lost one of his
> fingers on D-Day.  Legend has it, No matter how many episodes of Star
> Trek you watch, you'll never see all 4 fingers on one of Scotty's hands.

The legend is right, BUT there are a couple of episodes where the missing
finger can be seen, IF you look VERY Closely.

However, on Jimmy's appearances in The Next Generation episode "Relics"
and the Movie "Generations" they do not try to hide his missing finger.

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 13:09:03 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

On Sat, 26 Nov 1994, Cheryl Kaye Bryant wrote:

> The legend is right, BUT there are a couple of episodes where the missing
> finger can be seen, IF you look VERY Closely.

Before some joker goes off and asks how a "missing" finger can be seen...
You know what I mean.  The fact that there is a finger missing can be
seen, i.e. only three fingers and a thumb on the left hand.

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 15:35:06 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Hungarian Armour in World War 2

    I think that's a great idea.  We seldom hear about the exploits of the
    smaller combatants.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 20:33:08 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Ok, I'll add a few lines to answer Christopher's mail :

Christopher Morton <[email-masked]> writes:
> >
> > Christopher Morton <[email-masked]> writes:
> >
> > > As for the Charlemagne division, there was always considerable pro-Nazi
> > > sentiment in France.  Remember, the French were sending the Germans Jews
> y
> > > didn't even ask for.

The French Vichy regime collaborated is a great national shame which, yes,
the French still find hard to digest and often try to avoid.
Unlike the French, the Danes refused collaboration, the Danish police
preferred to be interned rather than carry out orders to arrest the Jews
-unlike the French police who obeyed-, and their King protested actively.
So there is plenty for the French people to be ashamed of.
However, cowardice and abandon of their folk cannot be equated with Nazism.

> > ruled the State at the time. Calling them "The French" is a gross error, an
> > can be compared  with calling the KKK "The Americans". I am myself of a
> > partly Jewish family and know no French Jews who view the French people
> > as "considerably" pro-Nazi or antisemitic.
> >
> I think that they can as fairly be called the French as those who deported th
> Japanese-Americans can be called the Americans.

No. Laval, Deat, Doriot, Darnant, and other French racists, were never
elected to power. Petain, brought to the fore by the elected 1936 Chamber
of Deputies, is another matter, and a great French object of shame.

I personally wouldn't conclude from the deportation of the Japanese-Americans
that the Americans were racists. Similarly, that some Frenchmen deported
Jews cannot lead to the hasty conclusion that the French were either.
Things are more complex.

I will let you imagine a scenario. Germany invades the United States in 1944
and sets up a puppet regime, sponsors the KKK leaders up the ladder of the
administration and the police, and these newly-appointed high civil servants
order the million American Jews to the camps. Can I later write that "The
Americans were anti-semitic ?". This would be quite a grave distortion of
History, by ignoring the nature of the body of governement.

> > To let you judge how confused matters were, a Jew relative of mine whose
> > brother died in Barkhausen concentration camp in 1942 applauded Petain in
> > Lyon in mid-1944. This shows how confused the French were.
>
> I think that some were more "confused" than others.  Many knew exactly what
> they were doing.
(I forgot to mention that two days later, he volunteered to the Army
to fight the Nazis on the Vosges front).

By such a vague word as "many" what do you mean exactly ? If you mean "most"
you are certainly in error. If you mean "some" you are right.

Just saw figures that in September 1944, 60% of the French were in favour of
acquitting Petain (!), while condemning Laval and others to Death. Is this
enough to convince you that the bulk of the people were "confused" ?

Petain's guilt was hardly admitted by the people, though most hated the
"Boche". Petain had been labelled the "saviour of France" after Verdun, and
most people in 1944 still saw him as a "victim". Amazing though this can be,
mentalities evolved slowly and in early 1945, through revelation of his
responsibilities, opinion had slowly evolved towards the death sentence.

> > Remember that the French were predominantly anti-German at the time. Deat,
> > Doriot and other French Nazis were sponsored by the Germans and never enjoy
> > great popular support.
> >
> This is a matter of contention, hardly settled.

No.
What is a matter of strong contention, especially at the moment, is why the
French reacted so little to such people's decisions, why they regarded them
as "respectable citizens" for so long (the Mitterrand controversy, Francois
Mitterrand - an anti-nazi -, having had a long friendship with Touvier,
a pro-Nazi), and take so long to bring some to trial, and why France
generated some Nazi sympathizers.

That pro-Nazi movements represented minorities in France or that the majority of
the French had little sympathy for the Germans has never been a "matter of
contention" among Historians.

(for reference, see the number of Frenchmen who joined the L.V.F. and make
up your own mind)

Cordially,
Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 21:44:08 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

David Rising <[email-masked]> writes:

> A quick question. Why could the American Mustang penetrate so far into
> German airspace, while the British Spitfire seemed to be confined to a
> purely defensive role?  My question is based on observations of both
> aircraft, which appear to be roughly the same size.
> Gordon Stock on David Rising's e-mail

I would tend to guess that the answer mostly holds in one word : Range.
The R.A.F. did conduct many offensive missions with Spitfires in France,
that is within their range.

Cheers,
Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 22:26:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

 >A quick question. Why could the American Mustang penetrate so far into
 >German airspace, while the British Spitfire seemed to be confined to a
 >purely defensive role?  My question is based on observations of both
 >aircraft, which appear to be roughly the same size.
 >Gordon Stock on David Rising's e-mail
 >
 >David Rising

As one wag put it, North American put fuel tanks in every nook and
cranny of the P-51.

a. The Spitfire Mk V had a range of 470 miles (794 km) on 106 US
   gallons (401 l) of fuel and a maximum range of 1,135 miles
   (1,918 km) on 219 US gallons (829 l))
b. The P-51D Mustang had a "normal" range of 950 miles (1,529 km)
   and a maximum range of 2,300 miles (3,701 km).  The "normal"
   fuel load was 269 US gallons (1,018 l) and max fuel was 489 US
   gallons (1,851 l).

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 22:59:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 26 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A shipping sweep by 4 B-25s is called off due
to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 19 B-25s and 20 P-51s blast railway
cars, station, and track, hit several trucks, and hit town areas at Hochih,
China and Phu Lang Thuong, French Indochina. 6 B-25s damage a bridge at
Kengluang, Thailand. 90+ P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s hit river, rail, and road
traffic and other targets of opportunity over wide S China areas, 40 of them
concentrating on targets between Kweiyi and Changsha and around Liuchow,
China. A flight of the 21st Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth
AF, begins operating from Luliang, China with F-5s (squadron is based at
Kunming).

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 P-47s continue close
support strikes; about 60 fighter-bombers hit concentrations, supply and
ammunition dumps, and rail targets at Panghkai, Kunmong, Mabein, Lashio,
Panku, and around Meza; 7 others on a railroad sweep hit targets of
opportunity between Maymyo and Man Pyen. Transports fly 300+ sorties to
forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 725: 1,137 bombers and 732 fighters are dispatched to make attacks
on rail viaducts, marshalling yards and oil installations in W Germany; all
but 1 attack is with radar; about 550 Luftwaffe fighters intercept and 34
bombers and 9 fighters are lost; the AAF claims 133-14-42 aircraft:
  1. 406 B-17s are sent to hit an oil refinery at Misburg (243) and a rail
viaduct at Altenbekin (118); 19 hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at
Osnabruck; 3 others hit a target of opportunity; they claim 4-6-7 aircraft;
10 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 160 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA,
6 WIA and 93 MIA. Escorting are 292 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 67-2-11
aircraft; 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 2 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 350 B-24s are sent to hit the Schidesche rail viaduct at Bielefeld (240)
and the Misburg oil refinery (57); targets of opportunity are Hannover
marshalling yard (26) and other (1); they claim 12-5-4 aircraft; 21 B-24s are
lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 53 damaged; 15 airmen are KIA, 6 WIA and
196 MIA. Escorting are 208 P-47s and P-1s; they claim 42-0-18 aircraft; 2
P-47s and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  3. 381 B-17s are sent to hit the marshalling yard at Hamm (266); other
marshalling yards hit are at Gutersloh (37), Bielefeld (36), Herford (24)
plus 3 hit other targets; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 86
damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 27 MIA. Escorting are 132 of 138 P-51s; they
claim 3-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  4. 36 of 36 P-51s fly a scouting mission; they claim 5-1-2 aircraft without
loss.
  Mission 726: 8 B-17s and 6 B-24s drop leaflets on France, the Netherlands
and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 173 B-26s and A-20s bomb
supply, storage, stores, and ordnance depots at Gaulsheim, Bergzabern,
Giessen, Reichenbach, and Homburg/Saar; fighters fly sweeps and armed
reconnaissance over W Germany, search for a lost A-20, escort 9th Bombardment
Division, and support the US 29th Infantry Division at Bourheim and the XX
and XII Corps in the area of the Maginot Line and German-French border. The
390th and 391st Fighter Squadrons, 366th Fighter Group, move from Couvron
Airfield at Laon, France to Asch, Belgium with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 39 P-38s fly an offensive sweep
over Seregelyes Airfield, Hungary and strafe nearby road and rail traffic;
other fighters fly reconnaissance and escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, a slight improvement in
the weather permits fighter-bombers to increase operations;  P-47s closely
support ground forces in the US Fifth Army battle area in the Apennines S of
Bologna and cut rail lines in over 30 places N of the immediate battle zone.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): P-47s from Saipan Island strafe the airfield on
Pagan Island. During the night a B-24 on a snooper mission from Guam Island
bombs Iwo Jima Island. B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Arakabesan Island in the
Palau Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, 40+ B-24s, some with fighter support, bomb La Carlota and Talisay
Airfields on Negros and Cebu Islands respectively; fighter-bombers hit an
airfield and various targets of opportunity throughout the area. B-25s pound
airfields in the Ambon-Ceram Islands area and B-24s bomb an airfield near
Davao, Mindanano Island. Other bombers and fighters fly light strikes and
armed reconnaissance missions against a variety of targets on N Celebes, N
Borneo, S Luzon, Mindanao, and Halmahera Islands. HQ 22d Bombardment Group
(Heavy) and the 33d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) move from Leyte Island,
Philippine Islands to Angaur Island, Palau Islands with B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

27/0359Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 23:08:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 27 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 17 B-24s bomb Gia Lam, French
Indochina. 17 B-25s blast the Hochih, China area, 6 bomb Phu Lang Thuong,
French Indochina, and 8 pound warehouses at Lashio, Burma. 56 P-40s, P-51s,
and P-38s on armed reconnaissance over E Burma, N French Indochina, and vast
areas of S China attack town areas, railroad targets, bridges and other
targets of opportunity around Lampang, Thailand; Phu Binh, French Indochina;
Pachai, Ishan, and Chefang, China; and Wanling, Hsenwi, and Kawnghka, Burma.
A detachment of the 426th Night Fighter Squadron, Fourteenth AF, begins
operating from Hsian, China with P-61s (squadron is based at Chengtu with a
detachment at Kunming).

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-47s fly close support
strikes in the Pinwe area; 21 fighter-bombers destroy bridges at Inailong and
Thegyaung and damage bridges at Ho-hko and Kawnghka; 60+ fighter-bombers
attack personnel and supply areas at Kutkai, Kyungon, Kodaungbo, Mongmit,
Datwin, Man Namsawk, Old Lashio, and Ugingyi. Transports fly 280+ sorties,
carrying men and supplies to forward bases and frontline areas. A detachment
of the 9th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 8th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, begins operating from Myitkyina, Burma with F-5s
(squadron is based at Barrackpore, India); the 165th Liaison Squadron
(Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, moves from Yazagyo, Burma to Asansol,
India with UC-64s and L-5s; the 434th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 12th
Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Comilla to Fenny, India with B-25s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): Operating from the Calcutta,
India area, 55 B-29s bomb the Bangsue railroad yards at Bangkok, Thailand; 3
others hit individual targets.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 727: 530 bombers and 770
fighters are dispatched to make PFF attacks on marshalling yards in Germany
and fighter-bomber strikes on 4 oil centers in N and C Germany; they claim
102-4-12 aircraft; 15 fighters are lost:
  1. 148 of 190 B-17s hit the Bingen marshalling yard; 2 others hit targets
of opportunity; 46 bombers are damaged; 2 airmen are WIA. Escorting are 91 of
95 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  2. 181 of 186 B-17s hit the Offenburg marshalling yard; 1 hits Freiburg; 14
B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is WIA. Escorting are 105 of 107 P-51s; 2 P-51s
are lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  3. 144 of 154 B-24s hit the Offenburg marshalling yard; 7 others hit
targets of opportunity; 9 B-24s are damaged. Escorting are 45 of 48 P-51s
without loss.
  4. 460 P-47s and P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions against oil targets in N
and C Germany; about 750 Luftwaffe fighters, the largest sighting to date,
attack in the Magdeburg-Munster-Hannover areas when the Germans mistake the
fighters for a heavy bomber formation; the AAF claims 98-4-11 aircraft in the
air and 4-0-1 on the ground; 2 P-47s and 10 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather forbids bomber missions;
fighters patrol over W Germany, dive-bomb a bridge at Rurdorf, and support
the US 104th, 8th, and 1st Infantry Divisions near Hurtgen and in the
Weisweiler-Franz area, and the XIX Corps (mainly the 2d Armored Division) at
Merzenhausen.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): P-51s and P-38s fly
reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort missions; bad weather cancels other
operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather grounds all
missions except 5 weather reconnaissance sorties.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 24 B-24s from Saipan Island, escorted by 12
P-38s, hit Iwo Jima Island; 29 more B-24s, from Guam Island, fly a second
strike against the island. 25 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Del Monte
Airfield on Mindanano Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 81 Mariana Islands-based B-29s fly against
Tokyo; none of the B-29s bomb the primary targets, the Musashino and Nakajima
plants, but 59 hit the secondary, the urban area and docks; 7 bomb Hamamatsu,
a target of opportunity; while the mission is in progress 11 enemy airplanes
attack Isley Field on Saipan Island, destroying or damaging several B-29s; AA
and intercepting fighters down 10 aircraft.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s bomb Malogo and Bacolod Airfields on Negros Island and Daliao
Airfield on Mindanao Island. B-25s blast Namlea Airfield on Buru Island;
Liang and Laha Airfields on Ambon Island. A variety of FEAF aircraft attack
airfields, shipping, and targets of opportunity on Celebes Island, N Borneo,
and in the Halmahera and the Ceram Islands areas. The detachment of the 419th
Night Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command, operating from Noemfoor Island
moves to Morotai Island with P-61s (squadron is based on Middleburg Island).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

27/0408Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 23:15:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 28 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 28 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 1 B-24 photographs and bombs the Matsuwa
Island shore area in the Kurile Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 17 B-24s,
escorted by 12 P-51s, bomb Gia Lam and 6 B-25s hit a railroad bridge at Phu
Lang Thuong. In Burma, 3 B-25s blast 6 warehouses at Hsenwi, 3 bomb Wan Lai-
Kam, 1 hits Kutkai, and 4 attack buildings in the Wanling and Chefang, China
areas. 60+ P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s on armed reconnaissance over wide areas of
E Burma and S China hit troops, bridges, horses, and other targets of
opportunity at many locations,

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 39 P-47s support ground
forces in the Pinwe and Bhamo areas; supply and personnel concentrations and
targets of opportunity at Nwegyo, Kutkai, the Meza area, Mankang, Manai,
Nawnglok, Nawnglong, Loimawk, Man Myeng, Mong Wi and Kungmong are attacked by
about 80 fighter-bombers; 16 hit targets of opportunity along the Maymyo-
Bawgyo rail line. Transports fly 317 sorties to forward areas. HQ 4th Combat
Cargo Group and the 13th Combat Cargo Squadron arrive at Sylhet, India from
the US with C-46s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 728: 6 B-17s and 6 B-24s
drop leaflets on the Netherlands and Germany during the night. The 845th
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 489th Bombardment Group (Heavy), departs
Halesworth, England for the US; the squadron will transition to B-29s in
1945.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, the 9th Bombardment
Division hits the defended villages of Birgel and Merken, a rail bridge at
Sinzig, and a Billiger Forest ammunition dump; fighters fly escort, night
intruder missions, and armed reconnaissance in the Kall-Trier area, and
support the US 1st, 8th, and 104th Infantry Divisions as they take
Langerwehe, Jungersdorf, Hurtgen, and the bridge at Inden.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to reconnaissance flights.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit railroad
bridges at Magenta, Torre Beretti, and Casale Monferrato, and an abandoned
ship in La Spezia harbor; fighters and fighter-bombers support ground forces
in the battle area in the Apennines S of Bologna, hit communications targets
N of the battle zone, and cut railroad lines in 40+ places in the Brenner
Pass and NC Po areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 21 Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb the airfield
on Iwo Jima Island; 3 others, flying an armed reconnaissance mission, bomb
Marcus Island. During the night of 28/29 Nov 1, a B-24 on a snooper mission
hits Iwo Jima Island. 3 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb the radio station on
Arakabesan Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
B-24s bomb Daliao and Matina Airfields. Small attacks by B-24s, B-25s, and
fighter-bombers are launched against airfields, shipping, and targets of
opportunity over wide areas of the SWPA, including C Philippine Islands and
the Halmahera and Timor Islands area. The 2d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy),
22d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Leyte Island to Angaur Island with
B-24s; the 35th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group, that has been operating
from Morotai Island, joins the ground echelon at Dulag, Leyte Island with
P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
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27/0415Z NOV

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Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 23:27:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War II

 >Do you have a list of the women in Hollywood who were involved in WWII?  I am
 >very interested for research that I am doing?

Ellen,

I don't have a list but I believe that every major Hollywood actress
participated in War Bond drives, Hollywood Canteen, USO, etc.
activities both in the US and overseas.

If you have cable TV and have the American Movie Classics channel,
they have a program on once in awhile that describes the activities
of Hollywood personalities during the war.  I remember Esther
Williams describing visits to military hospitals on the Eastern
seaboard in early 1945 as the wounded were brought home after the
Battle of the Bulge.  And then there is the singer (can't remember
her name to save my life) who travelled thousands of miles with Bob
Hope entertaining the troops all over the world.  Hearing her speak
of some of her experiences is very moving.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Nov 1994 23:50:17 -0500
From:    Scott C Stathis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eighth

> >  >> >The squadron (858nd bomber squadron) was listed as inactive
> >  >> >by late 1945. Having had thier last propaganda flight on
> >  >> >Oct 23, 1945.
> >  >>
> >  >> rest deleted.
> >  >>
> >  >> Scott,
> >  >>
> >  >> What were they propaganda bombing so long after
> >  >> the end of the war?
> >  >>
> >  >> Communists?
> >  >>
> >  >> Hmmmmmm.
> >  >>
> >  >> Robert Hohlt, Jr.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >   I'm not really sure Robert, the book I am using is "The Mighty Eigth,"
> >  >by Roger Freeman. The info I gave was in a very brief history of the
> >  >squadron in the back of the book. However if I had to guess they might
> >  >have been bombing a few remain pockets of Nazi resistance which as we
> >  >can see today does not breakdown easily or you could be right they might
> >  >have been bombing Russian held East Germany.
> >  >
> >  >                                Sorry I can't give a better answer! 8--(
> >  >Scott
> >
> > According to COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II,  the
> > 858th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) flew it's last CARPETBAGGER
> > mission on 25 Apr 45.  In early Aug 45, the squadron departed
> > Harrington, England for the US and was redesignated 858th Bombardment
> > Squadron (Very Heavy) on 5 Aug 45; it arrived at Sioux Falls AAFld,
> > South Dakota on 14 Aug 45 and transferred to Kirtland Field, New
> > Mexico on 17 Aug 45 where it was inactivated on 17 Oct 45.
> >
> > I am looking at THE MIGHTY EIGHTH and cannot find your reference
> > Scott.  Could you give me a page number?
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > |  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
> > |  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
> > |  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
> > |  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> The page I'm looking at is 264 under the heading "Night Leaflet Squadron."
> But it is also list several other times in the book check pages 262-263.
>
> Scott
> Umass-Amherst
> [email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Nov 1994 to 26 Nov 1994
*************************************************