Subject: WWII-L Digest - 7 Nov 1994 to 8 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 00:05:02 -0500

There are 22 messages totalling 1085 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 11-08-94
  2. WEAP: Lockheed 18 (2)
  3. P38 in CBI & Other
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-NOV-1944
  5. Comet and Andree de Jongh (3)
  6. Eastern Front Books (3)
  7. Textbooks
  8. Dams and Defence
  9. Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 1 (2)
 10. WHAT IF:  1943 Plot to Kill Hitler (2)
 11. BOOKS-Okinawa
 12. WHAT IF: 1943 Plot to Kill Hitler
 13. WEAP M5A1 Stuart tank
 14. WEAP: BB-64??
 15. [INF] USAAF 9 NOV 44

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/08 Wed.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine GROWLER (SS-215), unknown cause, west of
              Philippine Islands.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Torpedo boat SAGI, by submarine GUNNEL (SS-253),
              Philippine Islands area,
              16 d. 09'N., 118 d. 56'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:49:39 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Lockheed 18

     > Recently, Steve L. New wrote about seeing photographs of Lockheed
     > Model 18s (USAAF C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66) in Japanese
     > markings during WWII. Sorry Steve, my research indicates that the
     > Japanese never had Model 18s unless they captured a few.  Here is
     > what I found.

     > Jack McKillop

     Jack,

     Good post, great information, but it wasn't I who proposed Japanese
     built Lockheeds.  The closest I got to that was to discuss the
     Japanese captured P-40s kept in the Home Islands.

     Steve L. New

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:07:30 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: P38 in CBI & Other

     > Looking at the big picture is what I would like to be able to do.
     > What were the total American/British fighter losses on the Western
     > Front ?

     > Arnaud.

     Arnaud,

     I'll look, but to be honest I don't know if I have those figures.
     It's not a subject I've spent a lot of time on.  Hopefully someone on
     the list has this and can provide it.

     Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:26:33 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-NOV-1944

On 09-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the US 3rd Army sector, the XX Corps launches a heavy
attack to surround and capture Metz. The Moselle is reached by the 90th
Division in the vacinity of Malling and by the 95th Division at Uckange. Firm
bridgeheads are established in both areas. South of Metz, the 5th Division
crosses the river Seille. In the US XII Corps sector, the 35th Division after
reaching the village of Delme, continues on towards Chateau-Salins.

Italian Front - The Germans are forced out of Forli by the 4th Division.

Philippines (Leyte) - Japanese reinforcements land at Ormoc, but a
surprise air attack forces the Japanese convoy to withdraw before
ammunition and supplies come ashore. In the northwest of the island, the
US X Corps continues to advance slowly towards Ormoc. Torrential rains
continue to hamper operations.

The Homefront
-------------
Nobel Prizes - Four Nobel prizes have been awarded. Literature - Dr. Johannes
V. Jensen, Copenhagen, Denmark, author of "The Long Journey" and "The Fall of
the King". Physics - Dr. Isidor Isaac Rabi, Columbia University, for research
in the resonance method of registering the magnetic movement of atomic
particles. Physics - Dr. Otto Stern, Carnegie Institute of Technology, for
developing the molecular ray method of detecting the magnetic momemtum of
protons. Chemistry - Dr. Georg Hevesy, Stockholm, for his work in the use of
isotopes as indicaters in studying chemical processes.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:50:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comet and Andree de Jongh

Hello, Mary!

Here goes with the info I found:

Two escape networks in Belgium deserve special mention: "Comet" and
"Pat O'Leary". The latter was set up by Dr. Albert-Marie Guerisse. He
was a Belgian Army surgeon who escaped at Dunkirk, returned to France
to continue the struggle, was captured and escaped shortly after the
armistice. Returning to France on a secret mission, he was captured,
but escaped again, and set up one of the most important escape
networks before being captured a third time and deported to Germany.

"Comet" was formed by a girl, Andree de Jongh who had often heard the
story of Edith Cavell's heroism in WWI from her father, a headmaster
at Schaerbeek in the suburbs of Brussels. From strenuous personal
effort, she built up an escape route from Belgium to Bilbao. She took
personal charge of her "children", crossing the Somme (often
swimming, if necessary), taking the train to Bayonne and into Spain
by a hazardous mountain crossing. Andree de Jongh was also arrested
and deported. "Comet" paid a heavy price, but its efforts enabled
about 1000 airmen of the RAF and the USAAF to escape and fight again.

Hope this helps, and has been of interest. If you have any further
question, please let me know.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:04:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with another installment on books I have in my collection
dealing with "Barbarossa" or related to action on the Eastern Front:

                           Paperback

1. Epic: The Story of the Waffen-SS by Leon DeGrelle
2. Germany's Eastern Front Allies, 1941,1945 by Peter Abbott
3. The Waffen-SS by Martin Windrow
4. Foreign Volunteers of the Wehrmacht by Carlos Cabellero Jarado
5. Hitler's Teutonic Knights: SS Panzers in Action by Bruce Quarrie
6. Hitler's Samurai: The Waffen-SS in Action by Bruce Quarrie
7. Waffen-SS by Brian Davis
8. The Forgotton Holocaust: The Poles under German Occupation, 1939-
1944 by Richard Lukas
9. The Einsatzgruppen Reports: Selections from the Dispatches of the
Nazi Deaths Head Squadrons' Campaign Against the Jews in Occupied
Territories of the Soviet Union, July 1941-January 1943
10. Hitler as Military Commander by John Strawson

                     German Publications (Paper)

11. Die Geschichte der Wlassow-Armee by Joachim Hoffmann
12. Die Ostlegionen, 1941-1943 by Joachim Hoffman

BTW, I found one more book, I inadvertently overlooked which deals
with

                          Normandy

Bodyguard of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown

This will conclude the paperbacks I have on the Eastern Front.
Tomorrow, or later on today, I will begin posting the hardcover
editions I possess.

Hope this has been of interest. More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:23:28 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Lockheed 18

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion
List writes:
>      > Recently, Steve L. New wrote about seeing photographs of Lockheed
>      > Model 18s (USAAF C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66) in Japanese
>      > markings during WWII. Sorry Steve, my research indicates that the
>      > Japanese never had Model 18s unless they captured a few.  Here is
>      > what I found.
>
>
>
>      > Jack McKillop
>
>
>      Jack,
>
>      Good post, great information, but it wasn't I who proposed Japanese
>      built Lockheeds.  The closest I got to that was to discuss the
>      Japanese captured P-40s kept in the Home Islands.
>
>      Steve L. New

Here's the story on Lockheed Model 14's (and subsequently 18's ... SORTA)
from Robert Mikesh's book, Japanese Aircraft Code Names & Designators.
(I didn't see the earlier post, so I hope I'm not repeating something :-).

THALIA, Kawasaki Army Type 1 Freight Transport (Ki-56).

After exporting a number of Lockheed 14s to Japan in 1938, Lockheed sold
manufacturing rights for this transport to Japan.  Built in Japan by
Kawanishi, that company later improved upon the design to be used as a
military transport by lengthenining the fuselage.  Kawasaki was unaware
that Lockheed had done the same lengthening of the fuselage (an additional
7-inches to that of the Japanese) in making the Lockheed 18 Lodestar.  This
new Japanese version went into production in 1940 with an enlarged cargo
door, replacing the passenger door on the left side.

As a Japanese Army Type 1 Freight Transport, it was given the code name
THALIA when Allied air intelligence learned of the existence of this
airplane.  THALIA was often confused with the shorter version of the Lockheed
14 that was code named THELMA.

Basically, it's true that the Model 18 was not built directly under license.
However, the distinction between the modified Model 14 and the Lodestar were
so slight, mostly in length, that there was little to differentiate between
them.  It was Lockheed itself who essentially considered the THALIA a Model
18 clone even though it was independently created.

So the question of Lodestars in Japanese service generally comes down to the
question of whether its a pure aircraft (it is not) or one so close that it
qualifies (and at the time, it did to Lockheed... Or so it's been related to
me...)

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:34:30 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <[email-masked]>
Subject: Textbooks

       Hello everyone!

        Before I do anything, I'd like to thank those of you who sent
  messages regarding the Comet Line. I will be keeping everyone updated
  on that project.

       My new puzzle involves finding a list of textbooks that provide a
  a comprehensive overview of World War II. If anyone has had or taught a
  a course on this subject, I would appreciate some information regarding
  the topics that were covered. I am looking for materials appropiate for
  an undergraduate history class.

      Thanks, again!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:03:02 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Dams and Defence

On Tue, 8 Nov 1994, John Foster wrote:

>   The article goes on to mention how many dams are not being built which would
> aid the countries and communities involved because of the defence
> possibilities. This seems somewhat a paradox or two mutually exclusive
> principles that causes my civilian mind some turmoil. You cant have progress
> because the defenders of that progress say it may be a liability.I pictured
> Hitler fuming at his underlyings after the dam busters raid as they tended
> their excuses " We tried to tell
> you that building all those dams to supply the Ruhr would cost us the
> war"

John

Could you give a citation for the article in the New Scientist, I would
be interested in reading it.

As for the rest, I am not quite sure where you want this thread to go,
but I will add my two cents worth anyway.

I have an interest in the bombings of the "Dam Busters" because I lived
in the area hardest hit by the bombings of the Moehne and Sorpe Dams in
October of 1943.  I first learned of the bombings and the devastation
that followed when I visited the Moehne See in 1986 while I was an
exchange student in the Sauerland of Germany.  My host mother and
grandmother took me there to have lunch at a restaurant by the lake.
They knew I had an interest in WWII and thought I might like to see the
pictures/paintings of the tragic night from 43 years earlier.  My
grandmother spoke of that October night over lunch and the emotions were
still very strong even after forty-some years.  She remembered the roar
of the water as it busted through the dam.  She remembered thinking that
an earthquake had struck, but when the shaking and roar did not stop, she
knew that something far worse had occurred.  Luckily for her and her
family, they lived on "high ground" and therefore did not lose home or
family.

Since the day I first heard of the bombing and its aftermath, I have
spoken with many people who recall the tragedy.

John, your mentioning of the bombing of dams brought back the memory of
all of the people I have spoken with over the last eight years and I
decided to re-read a book I haven't opened in nearly as long.  It is
called *Als Deutschlands Daemme brachen: Die Wahrheit ueber die
Bombardierung der Moehne-Eder-Sorpe-Staudaemme 1943* by Helmut Euler.
Unfortunately, I do not think that the book has been translated, so unless
you happen to know German, it will not do you a much good.  However, if you
would be interested in the statistics of these bombings, I would be happy
to sit down and type them out.

C.K. Bryant
[email-masked]
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:11:28 -0600
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 1

In the fall of 1941, land surveyors and appraisers invaded the small
communities of Table Grove, Ipava, and Bernadotte, along the Spoon River
in west central Illinois, to acquire some 17,750 acres of land which was
used to build one of the largest army training centers in Illinois and one
of the largest army service forces' training camps in the country. Named
for World War I hero and Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, Sergeant
Michael B. Ellis, Camp Ellis contained some 2,200 buildings, including a
1,500 bed hospital, a mock German village, and a prisoner-of- war
stockade; housed 50,000 people; employed 1,500 civilians; and cost about
$70 million to build.  On April 15, 1943, about six months after
construction began, Camp Ellis was officially opened, and Colonel Basil D.
Spalding was named the camp's first commanding officer.  He was succeeded
by Major General Russell L. Maxwell, Brigadier General George E. Hartman,
and Colonel John L. Sullivan.  The camp was officially dedicated on July
4, 1943, by Governor Dwight H. Green.

Under the Sixth Service Command, Camp Ellis trained soldiers for overseas
combat as engineers, quartermasters, and medics.  A few Signal Corps
personnel were also trained, and in 1944 a training group was established
to train individual soldiers as replacements for units already overseas.
The troops received training in house-to-house fighting in Camp Ellis'
mock German village.  As the soldiers attacked the village, they
encountered live machine gun fire along with targets popping up in the
windows, doors, and alleyways.  Between April 1943 and December 1944, a
total of 125,000 men passed through Camp Ellis.  The camp shipped out 456
units of 58 different types, ranging from huge engineering regiments to
small medical detachments.  One of those units was the 1306 Engineer
General Service Regiment which constructed some eighty-six bridges as it
followed the Third Army across Europe.  The regiment later transferred to
Japan and became a part of the occupational forces.

In addition to training troops for combat, Camp Ellis also served as an
internment facility for German and Austrian soldiers who had been
conscripted into the German Army.  The first contigent of 2,672 POWs
arrived in late August 1943, and that figure reached 5,000 before the camp
closed.  The prisoners cut brush, worked on farms, laid bricks, dug
ditches, and maintained the railroad tracks leading into the installation.

To be continued...

Sources:
Knowles, Judy.  "Camp Ellis."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 12 (April 1959):
173.

Richey, John.  "Spoon River Camp."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 20 (April 1967):
159-60.

Roberts, Delbert.  "Remember When..."  MACOMB JOURNAL, 5 October 1994.

Waterson, Michelle.  "Camp Ellis: Built for World War II."  ILLINOIS
HISTORY 36 (November 1982): 45-46.

Watters, Mary.  ILLINOIS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.  Vol. 1, OPERATION HOME
FRONT.  Vol. 2, THE PRODUCTION FRONT.  Springfield, Ill.: Illinois State
Historical Library, 1951-52.

Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:24:05 -0500
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WHAT IF:  1943 Plot to Kill Hitler

Hi everyone!

A freind of mine is writing a short story on a hypothetical ww2 scenario
where Adolf Hitler is assassinated in 1943.  He has sent  a brief query
on particulars.  If anyone can proovide reasonable estimates it would be
greatly appreciated.

>     * approximate age of a major or young colonel in the
>     German Military in 1943.
>     * Rank of commander and second in command of a U-boat.
>     * Would Rommel have assumed command if a coup occurred
>     in early '43?  If not Erwin, then who?
>     * Dates of Sicily and Anzio invasions.

Hell, even I can get this one:  Sicily (OPERATION HUSKY) July 10, 1943;
Salerno (OPERATION AVALANCHE) September 9, 1943; Anzio (OPERATION SHINGLE)
Jan. 22, 1944.

     * Names of main anti-Hitler conspirators.

Uh.  Col. Count Claus von Stauffenburg carried the briefcase. Was
Canaris involved peripherally, a perpetual conspirator?

        _The German Army_, by Matthew Cooper says that Halder was an active
conspirator until 1943. Beck was supposed to be a main conspirator and
had been the choice leader to replace Hitler had the 1944 plot
succeeded.
        Cooper describes several attempts on Hitler's life in 1943.
To wit:
        "During 1943 there were several attempts on the Fuhrer's life,
but all came to nothing:  On 13 March a bomb, placed in his aircraft by
a group of officers at von Kluge's headquarters, failed to go off; later
that month Hitler's vacillation over whether to visit the War Museum in
Berlin caused a suicide bomb attempt to be cancelled; some time
afterwards, an officer who managed to get into the Fuhrer's presence
was, because of his junior rank, placed too far from the dictator to be
able to shoot him; in November another suicide mission misfired, owing
to Hitler's non-appearance; and in December a further bomb attempt was
frustrated because of Hitler's last-minute cancellation of a
conference."
        Does anyone have any other info on these attempts, like who was
involved, or any other details?

Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:29:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew and others!

Here goes with a listing of hardcover editions of books I possess
which deal with "Barbarossa" and related topics:

                   Hardcover

1. The Russo-German War, 1941-1945 by Albert Seaton
2. Hitler by Joachim C. Fest
3. Adolf Hitler by John Toland
4. The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer
5. The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler by Robert Payne
6. The German Dictatorship by Karl-Dietrich Bracher
7. The German Army, 1933-1945 by Matthew Cooper
8. Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer
9. Hitler and His Generals by Harold C. Deutsch
10. The Service: The Memoirs of General Reinhard Gehlen
11. A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff 1807-1945 by
    T. N. Dupuy
12. The Crime and Punishment of I. G. Farben: The Startling Account
    of the Unholy Alliance of Adolf Hitler with Germany's Great
    Chemical Combine by Joseph Borkin
13. Panzer Commander by Hans-Ulrich von Luck
14. Soldat: The Reflections of a German Soldier 1936-1949 by
    Siegfried Knappe
15. Codeword Barbarossa by Barton Whaley
16. In Service of the Reich by Field-Marshal Wilhelm Keitel
17. Disaster at Moscow by Alfred W. Turney
18. German Strategy Against Russia, 1939-1941 by Barry Leach
19. Against Stalin and Hitler: Memoirs of the Russian Liberation
    Movement by Wilfried Strik-Strikfeldt
20. Lost Victories by Field-Marshal Erich von Manstein
21. Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East by Earl F.
    Ziemke
22. The Decline and Fall of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan by Hans
    Dollinger
23. The Fall of Berlin bhy Anthony Read and David Fisher
24. Goebbels by Ralf-Georg Reuth
25. The Memoirs of Marshal Mannerheim
26. Hitler: The Man and the Military Leader by Percy Ernst Schramm
27. Hitler's Generals by Richard Humble
28. The Soviet General Staff at War, 1941-1945 by S. M. Shtemenko
29. The Goebbels' Diaries, 1939-1941
30. Goebbels by Helmut Heiber
31. The History of the German Resistance, 1933-1945 by Peter Hoffmann
    (excellent)
32. The Secret Conferences of Dr. Goebbels by Willi Boelcke
33. Goebbels and National Socialist Propaganda, 1925-1945 by Dr.
    Ernest K. Bramsted (considered the best work on the subject)
34. The War Path by David Irving
35. Hitler and Stalin by Alan Bullock
36. The Road to Stalingrad by John Ericson
37. Hitler's War Aims by Norman Rich (2 volumes)
38. The Last European War by John Lucacz
39. The Illusion: Soviet Soldiers in Hitler's Armies by Juergen
    Thorwald
40. Hitler's Generals by Correlli Barnett
41. The Nazi Secret Service by Andre Brissaud
42. Guderian by Kenneth Macksey
43. German Rule in Russia by Alexander Dallin
44. The German General Staff, 1657-1945 by Walter Goerlitz
45. Katyn: A Crime without Parallel by Louis Fitzgibbon
46. The Road to Yalta by Louis Fischer
47. The Stroop Report: The Jewish Quarter of Warsaw is no more. A
    facsimile translation of the official Nazi report on the
    destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto
48. Conversations with an Executioner: An incredible 255 day-long
    interview with the man who destroyed the Warsaw Ghetto by
    Kazimierz Moczarski
49. The Order of the Death's Head by Heinz Hoehne
50. European Volunteers: 5th SS Panzerdivision "Wiking" by Peter
    Strassner
51. Heinrich Himmler by Bradley F. Smith
52. Of Pure Blood by Marc Hillel
53. The Waffen-SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939-1945 by George
    H. Stein
54. Waffen-SS: Uniforms, Organization and History of the Waffen-SS by
    Roger Bender and Hugh Page Taylor (5 volumes)
55. Foreign Legions of the Third Reich by David Littlejohn (4 volumes)
56. Hitler's Gladiator: The Life and Times of Oberstgruppenfuehrer
    and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS Sepp Dietrich by Charles Messenger
57. Soldiers of Evil: The Commandants of the Nazi Concentration Camps
    by Tom Segev
58. Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division 1933-1945
    by Dr. Charles Sydnor
59. The SS: Alibi of a Nation by Gerald Reitlinger
60. Tiger: The History of a Legendary Weapon 1942-1945 by Eugen Kleine

                      Stalin

1. Let History Judge by Roy Medvedev
2. Stalin:Triumph and Tragedy by Dmitri Volkoganov
3. Khruschev Remembers
4. A History of Russian and Soviet Sea Power by Donald W. Mitchell
5. Stalin by Adam B. Ulam
6. Stalin as Military Commander by Albert Seaton
7. Stalin and His Generals by Seweryn Bialer
8. Stalin: The History of a Dictator by H. Mongomery Hyde
9. The Memoirs of Marshal Zhukov
10. The Last Secret: The Delivery to Stalin of over 2 million
    Russians by Britain and the United States by Nicholas Bethell
11. Conversations with Stalin by Milovan Djilas
12. Russia at War by Alexander Werth

This concludes the English Language volumes. I shall post the German
Language editions I have on this topic that will be of interest.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:17:35 -0500
From:    Mike Oaks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comet and Andree de Jongh

>
> Two escape networks in Belgium deserve special mention: "Comet" and
> "Pat O'Leary".

Terry,
  Are there any books out about these "Networks"??

  Thanks in Advance,
                    Mike
 ___________________________________________________________________
|                                                                   |
|    Michael A. Oaks                 Music: A way to mark times     |
|    Kennesaw State College                 stepping stones through |
|    [email-masked]             your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  MAO |
|___________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:11:26 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: BOOKS-Okinawa

I came across a book in the bookstore called Tennozan-The Battle of
Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb by G. Feifer. I have read about 100 pages so
and I like it so far. Does anyone have a opinion of this book, good or
bad?-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
[email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:37:13 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 1

Michael:

I look forward to reading more about Camp Ellis in your future posts.
Being from Illinois, I am always into learning more about its history in
any era, not just WWII.

Personal Note to Michael Wallick:

Do you often eat lunch at the Delta Deli?  I think I might know who you
are if you do.  I was talking about Terry one day and mentioned the
WWII-Listserv and a gentleman who eats in the Deli turned to look at us at
the moment I mentioned the group.  Was that you?  Just curious...I didn't
want to go up to the poor guy and say, "Hey, are you Michael from the
WWII-Listserv?"

See Ya' Around,

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:50:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT IF:  1943 Plot to Kill Hitler

Hello, Emery!

Can answer your questions with some research, but you are asking for
an opinion on this one:

> >     * Would Rommel have assumed command if a coup occurred
> >     in early '43?  If not Erwin, then who?

    I really doubt that, given the fact that he was not that privy to
the extent of the military resistance to Hitler. I take it you mean
political charge of the government and not the military. At that
time, my understanding would be that General Ludwig Beck would have
been the likely choice, as he was the one name who was respected
abroad, and had been involved in the conspiracy against Hitler from
the beginning. General Beck was the last great name, besides von
Seeckt, associated with the General Staff before it became completely
dominated by AH.

> Uh.  Col. Count Claus von Stauffenburg carried the briefcase. Was
> Canaris involved peripherally, a perpetual conspirator?

    There were many, and I will list a few:

        Captain Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst
        Generalmajor Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff
        Generalmajor Helmut Stieff
        Colonel Count Merz von Quirnheim
        General der Infanterie Friedrich Olbricht
        General der Nachrichtentruppe Erich Fellgiebel (Chief of
        Signals)
        Lieutenant Werner von Haeften (Stauffenberg's aide)
        Colonel Hans Oster (Abwehr)
        Generalleutnant Hans Speidel
        General der Infanterie Heinrich von Stuelpnagel (military
        commandant of Paris)
        Generalfeldmarschall Erwin von Witzleben
        Generaloberst Franz Halder (Chief of the German General Staff
        up to 1942)
        Generaloberst Erich Hoeppner

                        Civilians

        Karl Goerdeler-Mayor of Leipzig
        Fabian von Schlabrendorff
        Ulrich von Hassel-former envoy to the Vatican
        Helmuth Count von Moltke of the Kreisau Circle
        Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer
        Adam von Trott zu Solz

>         _The German Army_, by Matthew Cooper says that Halder was an active
> conspirator until 1943. Beck was supposed to be a main conspirator and
> had been the choice leader to replace Hitler had the 1944 plot
> succeeded.
>
  Cooper describes several attempts on Hitler's life in 1943.
> To wit:
>         "During 1943 there were several attempts on the Fuhrer's life,
> but all came to nothing:  On 13 March a bomb, placed in his aircraft by
> a group of officers at von Kluge's headquarters, failed to go off; later
> that month Hitler's vacillation over whether to visit the War Museum in
> Berlin caused a suicide bomb attempt to be cancelled; some time
> afterwards, an officer who managed to get into the Fuhrer's presence
> was, because of his junior rank, placed too far from the dictator to be
> able to shoot him; in November another suicide mission misfired, owing
> to Hitler's non-appearance; and in December a further bomb attempt was
> frustrated because of Hitler's last-minute cancellation of a
> conference."
>         Does anyone have any other info on these attempts, like who was
> involved, or any other details?

    Yes, a Colonel Rudolf Brandt, the same Brandt who lost his life
in the bomb explosion at Rastenburg on 20 July 1944, was the man who
received the two bottles of "Champagne" from the plotters which was
supposed to have gone off at altitude. Brandt handed these over to
the officer for whom they were intended who was in on the plot who
found that they had not exploded because the high altitude freezing
temperatures had frozen the striker which would have detonated the
bomb.

    The other plot you mention, where Hitler failed to show, dealt
with an inspection of winter uniforms. Involved in this was Captain
Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst. He was prepared to throw
himself on Hitler with a grenade that would have a 2 or 3 second
fuse. It would cost him his own life but Hitler's as well. If this
had not succeeded at the time, say a misfire or failure to explode,
von dem Bussche had a knife concealed in his boot that he would have
used. In any event, he was committed to killing Hitler.

This inspection was cancelled and re-scheduled, but in the meantime,
the uniforms were stored in a rail car on a siding in Berlin. They
were destroyed in an air raid and von dem Bussche was forced to
return to the front. He was not used again, before the 20 July plot,
and after that date, Himmler effectively rooted out any resistance to
AH.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:58:59 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comet and Andree de Jongh

Hello, Mike!

Glad to hear from you again, and hope you are well.

>   Are there any books out about these "Networks"??

    Not to my knowledge. The info I supplied on these networks is the
result of perusing about 15 books dealing with subterfuge and spying
during the Second World War. I finally found the info I posted in
Marshall-Cavendish's "History of the Second World War" Volume 16,pp
1903-1904. I thought it would have been discussed in one called
"Noah's Ark" by "Madeleine" (I forget her real name), as this goes
into her exploits on the Continent, but she doesn't say a word about
it.
    I will keep an eye out on anything dealing with this topic, as I
buy anything I can lay my hands on that deals with this topic. There
just aren't that many things I have seen that are in print that deal
with this "less-than-glamourous-side" of WWII.

    Will be posting many more titles. Thanks for the question, and I
wish I could be of more assistance.

    All the best to you.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 20:21:44 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]> writes:

> Dear Arnaud,
>
> Paul Carrell is the nom de plume of a former ranking official in Goebbels
> Ministry of Propaganda, whose name escapes me at the moment. His books
> are a good example of the interpretation of the war the Germans were
> trying to establish in the 1950s and 1960s. They are considered biased
> by most scholars in the field, but they are also good on some detail.
> If you are building a specialized Eastern Front collection, they may be
> worth the money ($35 or so? I got mine years ago, and don't know the
> current price), but be careful in reading them. If you want accuracy,
> although in a drier read, get Earl Ziemke's volumes or Albert Seaton's
> work instead.
>
> Henry Sirotin

Thanks a lot Henry. Well then I was right in saving my bucks (or pounds as
it turned out), this was just was I feared.
I bought Albert Seaton's book and it is the best
I have read, though not very attractive for non-specialists, like Glantz's.
Yes, I am trying to build a collection on the subject, but it I have only
been attracted by a handful of authors. There are many books on a particular
division (always German), usually admirative, and I prefer broader works.
Months ago I nearly ordered E. ZIemke's books, but refrained, having read
they were wrong on many points. What is your opinion on Ziemke ?

Oh, and Carrell now costs several times $35. Each of the volumes I saw in
London was very expensive.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 16:59:41 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT IF: 1943 Plot to Kill Hitler

two very good books you really should consult on thei topic are

THE GERMAN RESISTANCE TO HITLER

HITLER'S PERSONAL SECURITY

both by Peter Hoffmann; published in the early 1980's by in the US by
either MIT Press or one of the California Universities  (hey, this is
from memory--my sources are at home)  Very good details as to specifics
and technical data.

The Resistance in 1943 was very different from what was left in the
summer of 1944-- many of the Kreisau Circle weren't under arrest, for
example.  Stauffenberg spent much of 1943 on convalescent leave
recovering from terrible maiming wounds suffered in Tunisia, so I would
imagine his availability to the Resistance in 1943 to be very limited.
Kluge hadn't transferred from Russia to France yet, so von Treschkow's
influence over him should have made him (i.e. Kluge) a major player in
the projected '43 coup.  Canaris & the Abwehr were still viable, and
Oster not relieved of duty yet.  Obviously the most feasible plot for
that year would've been from the Eastern Front gang (Treschkow, et al).
But bear in mind that while more civilian leaders (Moltke, Leber,
Goerdler, etc) were still available in '43, the general populace hadn't
turned against Hitler yet (if they ever did).

Enough rambling for now.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 15:39:05 PST
From:    "Mark H. Walter" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP M5A1 Stuart tank

Tim

I tried mailing you but I don't think it got through so I will post here.
Sorry everyone else.  It would be great if you could put me in touch with
the M5 owner in Chicago.  Thanks.
                           H 310 312 1222
                           W 310 331 5605
                           Mark Walter  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:40:18 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BB-64??

On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > bb64.gif      137699 Nov  6  USS MINNESOTA, BB-64, 11 NOV 44, at Pearl
> >                              Harbor, alongside USS OKLAHOMA, BB-37 (the
> >                              "Okie" is being prepared for return to
> >                              CONUS.)
>
> I was aware that BB-64 is USS Wisconsin. Is this the same ship (with other
> name)?
>
> Jorge Merino
>

The description must be a misprint. The picture sure looks like an Iowa
class and I can find no mention that the Wisconsin was previously the
Minnesota.

By the way - the Minnesota (BB-22, Vermont class) was sold in 1924.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 21:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
A-20, Douglas Havoc
A-26, Douglas Invader
B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
B-24, Consolidated Liberator
B-25, North American Mitchell
B-26, Martin Marauder
B-29, Boeing Superfortress
C-47, Douglas Skytrain
F-5, Lockheed Lightning
F-6, North American Mustang
L-5, Stinson Sentinel
Mosquito, deHavilland
P-38, Lockheed Lightning
P-40, Curtiss
P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
P-51, North American Mustang
P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force):
     Eleventh AF: An 8-plane armed reconnaissance sweep and a 4-plane bombing
mission are cancelled due to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 B-25s bomb Mangshih while
10 P-38s hit targets of opportunity in the Mangshih-Chefang area; 6 B-25s
bomb Kaifeng while 6 others hit sampans, storage areas, and other targets of
opportunity in the Yiyang area; 160 P-40s, P-38s, and P-51s on armed
reconnaissance over wide expanses of S China and N Indochina attack trucks,
gun positions, river and coastal shipping, and other targets of opportunity
at or near Pingnam, Kweihsien, Changsha, Yoyang, Siangtan, Lushan, Kioshan,
Paoching, Hengyang, Liangshan, Liuchow, Suikai, and Weichow Island and Gia
Lam and Kien An, French Indochina.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ aircraft bomb
concentrations and supply areas at Kutkai, Shwebo, Mawtawng, and Kunhailong,
bomb the airfield at Kawlin, knock out a bridge at Ho-hko, and support ground
forces and hit targets of opportunity near Chyauhkawng, Namakyaing, Sepein,
Tonlon, and at other points in the same general area; 6 B-25s bomb rail yards
at Kanbalu; transports continue large-scale operations, flying nearly 300
sorties to forward areas; the 20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 8th
Photographic Reconnaissance Group, moves from Kisselbari, India to Myitkyina
with P-40s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 304th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Peray to St-Andre-de-L'Eure,
France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 707: 1,309 bombers and 738 fighters are dispatched to hit front
line strongpoints and tactical targets in the Metz and Thionville, France
areas; 4 bombers and 5 fighters are lost:
  1. 460 B-17s are dispatched to hit transportation targets at Thionville
(47); 276 hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; targets of
opportunity are Saarlautern (34) and other (3); 4 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged
beyond repair and 96 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 6 WIA and 27 MIA. Escort is
provided by 187 of 192 P-51s without loss.
  2. 437 B-17s are dispatched to hit transportation targets at Metz (345); 41
hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; 28 hit Koblenz; 3
B-17s are damaged beyond repair and 13 damaged; 19 airment are KIA. Escort is
provided by 176 of 184 P-51s without loss.
  3. 402 B-24s are dispatched to hit transportation targets at Metz (385); 15
hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; 1 B-24 is damaged
beyond repair and 5 damaged. Escort is provided by 113 of 119 P-51s; 3 P-51s
are damaged beyond repair.
  4. 10 of 10 B-17s fly a screening force mission.
  5. 139 P-47s and P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions in the Frankfurt-
Lannheim area of Germany; 1 P-47 and 4 P-51s are lost; 4 pilots are MIA.
  6. 30 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting forces mission.
  Mission 708: 5 B-17s and 12 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands
and Germany during the night.
  The 27th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance) (attached to VIII Air Force Service Command), moves from
Mount Farm, England to Denain/Prouvy, France with F-5s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 74 planes of the 9th Bombardment
Division attack road junctions, barracks, ordnance arsenals, artillery camps,
military storage depot, and other targets in the Dieuze and Faulquemont,
France and Landau and Sankt Wendel, Germany areas; the IX Tactical Air
Command flies sweeps over W Germany and attacks marshalling yard at Duren,
Germany, while the XXIX Tactical Air Command escort attacks Rahling, Germany
and an airfield and supports US Third Army elements (2 infantry and 2 armored
divisions) as an allout assault on Metz, France is pushed. In France, HQ 358th
Fighter Group moves from Mourmelon to Toul; the 379th Fighter Squadron, 362d
Fighter Group, moves from Prosnes to Rouvres with P-47s; the 425th Night
Fighter Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command, moves from Prosnes to Etain with
P-61s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to 4 weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather hampers
medium bombers operations in the Po Valley as 7 of 9 missions abort; in the
2 others, bridges in the Valley are hit; fighters and fighter-bombers fly
less than 100 sorties, but successfully strike road and railroad bridges in
the Bologna-Modena areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Guam Island, fly shipping
reconnaissance over the Bonin Islands attacking vessels and AA positions at
Haha Jima Island, shipping and town at Okimura and returning, strafe Iwo Jima
Island. P-47s from Saipan Island Island strafe storage caves on Pagan Island.
During the night of 9/10 Nov a lone B-24 from Guam Island, on a snooper
mission, bombs Iwo Jima Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, fighter-bombers attack a convoy off the W coast of Leyte Island and
hit barges and shipping near Ormoc; B-24s bomb Carolina Airfield on Negros
Island. B-25s attack several airfields and villages in the NE peninsula of
Celebes and Halmahera Islands. A-20s strike Piroe on Ceram Island. HQ 309th
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Noemfoor Island to Owi, Schouten Islands.
The 70th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, based at Sansapor, New Guinea,
begins operating from Morotai Island with P-38s. The 408th Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 22d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Owi, Schouten
Island to Leyte Island with B-24s; the 431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter
Group, moves from Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte Island with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

09/0229Z NOV

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Nov 1994 to 8 Nov 1994
***********************************************