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There are 64 messages totalling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: Sonar (4)
  2. MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY
  3. admin: No Mail!
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-NOV-1944
  5. Pearl Harbor (2)
  6. Hisler successor (2)
  7. fighter pilots (9)
  8. Mr Listowner !
  9. Naval Ships lost to weather (2)
 10. INF: USN Chronology 11-02-94
 11. INF: USN Chronology 11-01-94
 12. question-- aircraft (Me 102)
 13. WEAP:49,000 pound bomb (3)
 14. more on bersaglieri (3)
 15. WEAP: Question...Aircraft
 16. Old 59 (2)
 17. Iwo Jima veteran
 18. WWII MEMOIRS
 19. MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt (3)
 20. WEAP: CVE-
 21. WEAP:B-32 (2)
 22. WEAP:  49000 Lb Bomb (2)
 23. [GEN] Transport planes (4)
 24. MEDIA: Better Late Than Never
 25. MEDIA:German Holocaust Museum
 26. Home: US: Illinois at war
 27. GEN:dangerous jobs (2)
 28. [INF] USAAF 3 NOV 44
 29. MARINE CORPS BIRTH (3)
 30. HYPO"The big what"
 31. BERSAGLIERE(SP!)
 32. IWO JIMA VETERAN
 33. WEAP: BOOKS: Sea Eagles - Bf 109T history
 34. statue of liberty
 35. Japanese warships visiting Pearl Harbor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 23:03:39 -0600
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

Tim,  now to finaly get around to answering the rest of you'r questions.

+==============================+=============================================+
| DAN COX                      | "I have made this letter longer than usual, |
| REPUBLIC, MO                 | only because I have not had the time to     |
| dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us | make it shorter."--Blaise Pascal            |
+==============================+=============================================+

On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:


>
>              ---Deleated Stuff---
>
> Also, I believe destroyers in WW II used hydrophones, which were basically
> passive listening devices.  I assume that they had 360 degree listening
> capability.  Sonar was something different, because it sent out a signal
> and the operator listened for echoes.

That's true they had both.

  A sonar transducer (antenna) is made up of two gangs of quartz
crystals.  When you apply an alternating electrical voltage to one gang
it causes the crystals to expand and contract, producing a sound wave.
The second gang is connected to an ampflier by wires and when a sound
strikes them, the amplifer produces a sound humans can hear.  Stick
this thing down in the water and you have Sonar.  If you just want to
listen don't ping (transmit).  This is directional however depending on
the direction you have the transducer trained.  Now if you'r dead still
in the water and really close to a sub, you could hear him if he's
underway.  For a moving surface ship to detect a sub tho, you must echo
range (ping) off him.

If your underway a hydrophone is useless.  A scenario for their use takes
place following a depth charge run on a sub.  If it wasn't too deep
sometimes the sub would desend and set on the bottom.  Once this happens,
you can't locate him by echo ranging with sonar.  Lots of times he would
blow a package of personal items out a torpedo tube, hoping the enemy
above would spot them and think he had sunk.  If the destroyer didn't
buy this, it would go to the sub's last known position, come to a dead
stop and listen with the hydrophones, waiting for the sub to start his
motors and move.  The sub could only stay down there so long until it
ran out of oxygen.  By using the hydrophones you could hear 360 degrees
so when he started up you would hear him, but would be unable to tell what
direction the sound was comming from.

  I don't think this tactic was used much near the end of the war.  With
the Germans using the Wolf Packs, a ship dead in the water became easy
prey for any other sub in the area.

  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
the movie, though.


> (I think they may have used the
> hydrophone headgear to listen for sonar returns.)

  The Sonar operators control panel on the WW-II gear I operated had a
phone jack for headphones if you wanted to use them, but the normal mode
was to use a speaker in the Sonar Shack so everyone could hear the pings
and echos.


> It is my understanding
> that sonar in WW II had a very narrow beam and had to be pointed.  When
> a destroyer was looking for a submarine, for example, it had to slowly
> sweep an area a few degrees at a time.  Does anyone know if that is true
> and just how wide the search beam was?
>
  The bean of WW-II Sonar was about 7 1/2 degrees, so you would search in
5 degree steps.  You would stard at either the port or starbord beam of
the ship, ping once and listen for 5 to 10 seconds for whatever echos and
sounds would come back.  And believe me you were going to have plenty,
the trick is to determine what might be a sub.  Once the 5 to 10 seconds
were up you trained the transducer forward 5 degrees and repeated this till
you reached the bow.  At this point you "slewed " the transducer 90
degrees to the other beam and repeated this same action, etc, etc.  Bear in
mind you could only hear the 7 1/2 degrees the transducer was aimed and
you were "blind" the other 352 1/2 degrees.


> Sorry if this is very obvious or has been covered before.  I didn't have
> handy access to any source for this.  TIA
>
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 20:20:32 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY

Thanks Ben.  Btw, I just picked up a copy today of *US Marine Corps
Uniforms & Equipment in WWII* by Jim Moran, and have been having a good
time looking at the photos tonight.  Seems to be a good book, although a
little steep on the $.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 00:44:45 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <SCHULERE@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

>  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
>and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
>the movie, though.

Dan,

I think the movie you are referring to is "The Enemy Below." Here a couple
of short reviews of the movie. It won an Oscar for special effects.


Not rated Color 98 minutes
US 1957
Available on Videocassette

Cast Includes:
Robert Mitchum          Curt Jurgens    Thodore Bikel   Doug McClure


Leonard Maltin Review (3 out of 4 stars):
Fine WW2 Submarine chase tale, which manages to garner interest from usual
crew interaction of U.S. vs. Germany in underwater action. Previously filmed
in 1931 as The Seas Beneath.

Pauline Kael Review:
A duel of nerves, instincts, intelligence, and seamanship is fought by Curt
Jurgens as the captain of a German submarine and Robert Mitchum as the captain
of an American destroyer. Dick Powell's direction of this Second World War
action-adventure picture is clean and professional; everything is well-done,
but nothing suprises you and nothing thrills you, either. With Theodore bikel
and Kurt Kreuger. The script is based on a book by Commander D. A. Rayner.
20th Century Fox. CinemaScope.


Tony
Schulere@uwstout.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 00:50:13 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: admin: No Mail!

I have not received any mail from WWII-l since October 27.  Have I been
deleted from the list again?  I tried to resubscribe but received the
answer from the server that WWII-l does not exist.  What happened?
I don't want to miss any information on the Romanian military in WWII.  I
will have to reread the postings from the last week or so until i'm back on
the list. Keep up the good work!

Jon Stevens --  jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:40:52 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-NOV-1944

On 03-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The fighting at Breskens comes to an end. The battle has cost
the Canadians 2,077 men (314 killed and the rest wounded or missing). Some
12,500 Germans have been taken prisoner. Over the river at Walcheren the
battle is still very fierce but the British and Canadian forces are able to
advance steadily. The 104th Division extends its bridgehead. The Polish 1st
Division establishes a bridgehead near Zevenbergen on the right flank of the
II Corps, while the Canadian 4th Armoured Division improves its position in
the same sector.

Eastern Front - The slow retreat of the Germans in the Balkans continues. In
the northern sector, the German Army Group North is still cut off in northern
Latvia and the island of Saaremaa, and on the smaller islands in the Gulf of
Riga.

Italian Front - General McCreery is appointed to command the Eighth Army.

Philippines (Leyte) - The 96th Infantry Division is held up by strong Japanese
resistance west of Dagami on a hill known as Bloody Ridge, and are forced to
withdraw.

Mariana Islands - Japanese aircraft begin a series of raids on the US bases on
Saipan and Tinian.

Burma/China - On the Salween river front, the Chinese 1st Division retakes
Lung-ling. The Chinese 22nd Division, in the north, reaches the Irrawaddy near
Shwegu.

The Homefront
-------------
Alleged Spy Arrested - The FBI has arrested Henrich Suhl, 55, cork importer at
Peekskill, NY on a charge of conspiracy to violate the federal espionage
statute in wartime. He is alleged to have been used by the Germans to pay
spies in the US.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor

Jim Adams writes:

 >Today I was thinking of a historical paradox.  As I stood on the back
 >lawn of the Arizona Memorial Visitors' Center I watched a Japanese
 >destroyer with her rising sun naval battle ensign sail past the
 >Memorial.  Yesterday's enemies are todays friends; todays friends are
 >tomorrows enemies.

I thought the same thing in 1986 when the Statue of Liberty was
re-dedicated.  I was sitting in the stands on the banks of the
Hudson River in Jersey City, New Jersey; looking to the left, I saw
two Japanese warships and looking to the right was a German warship.
Some of the WWII vets in the stands just shook their heads at that.

One of the most impressive things was the battleship USS Iowa.
There was a pier jutting into the river on my left and you could
not see what was coming down the river.  Suddenly, here comes this
clipper bow and  silently slipping down the river was the Iowa.  I
had been aboard the New Jersey once but you cannot appreciate the
graceful lines of these ships until you look at them from a distance.
The Iowa Class battleships make aircraft carriers look like big,
clunky monsters without any grace at all.

And then later in the day, we had the tall ships on parade.  But that
is another story.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

Dan Cox writes about submarines, SONAR, etc. and says:

 >  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
 >and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
 >the movie, though.

I believe you are thinking of the following.


>From LEONARD MALTIN'S MOVIE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1994

THE ENEMY BELOW
Released in 1957
Color
98 minutes long
Maltin gives it 3 stars out a possible 4

Directed by Dick Powell
Starring Robert Mitchum, Curt Jurgens, Theodore Bikel, Doug
McClure, Russell Collins and David Hedison.

Fine WWII submarine chase tale, which manages to garner interest
from usual crew interaction of U.S. vs. Germany in underwater
action; the special effects for this earned Walter Rossi an Academy
Award.  Previously filmed in 1931 as THE SEAS BENEATH.
Originally filmed in CinemaScope.  The film has been available on
Homevideo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:03:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Hello, William!

I want to respond to your interesting post. I am having some computer
problems and am sending this to see if you have received it.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:30:01 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Hello, William!

Would like to add a couple of comments to your fine post.

>    When Hitler was removed from power is the most essential element of this
> debate.  From 1933-1940 or so, the other Nazi big-wigs had too much power
> and influence.  Not to detract from Heydrich's abilities, but Goebbels,
> Himmler, Hess, and particularly Goering had the advantage of being public
> figures and somewhat liked.  In these days, Heydrich was a shadowman.

    Which is what Heydrich preferred, i.e. being a shadowman. He
worked most effectively and his most profound influence operating in
the shadows.

    As
> totalitarian as Germany was, I think in 1940 the German people would have
> had an indirect say as to who took over - and my first guess would be
> Goering, particularly as Hitler had more or less articulated this.

    I really rather doubt that. At that time, I don't think the
people would have been in a favorable position to exert any sort of
influence on the outcome of any power struggle. Himmler's  Gestapo
had seen to that.

>    But by 1942 or definitely 1943, the German people were more or less
> apathetic to who was in charge - the most important thing was making it
> through alive and seeing a good end to the war.

    I think this is correct, and by that time, the Germans had become
numbed to life around them.

Thus, popularity would
> play a lesser role.  In this case, it is likely that Heydrich could have
> taken over, though the fact that he never really commanded a large following
> either in the public or the Party cannot be forgotten.

    I don't think it mattered to Heydrich if he had a large following
or not. At the level of governance, the only thing that mattered was
who could exert the most influence and who had the most power. As
long as Hitler remained at the top, there was no doubt who was in
control. With him gone, it would have been up for grabs, and to my
mind, with Heydrich's gift for intrigue combined with his intellect,
as opposed to that of his opponents, I think in time he could have
and would have come out on top. He was the one big-wig who had real
talent, which was lacking in those above him.

All of his accomlishmen
> ts were based on his intellect and will - these are not enough to take over
> a country.

    I think that would depend on the situation.


>    In conclusion, Heydrich probably would not have come to power any earlier
> than 1942, when the began to take turns for the worst and the bigwigs were
> being discredited.  Even then, I'm not sure he would have wanted that power,
> though I could be wrong here.

    I think that the attraction of attaining ultimate power for
Heydrich would have been too tempting for him not to have made an
attempt at achieving it.

 What I wonder most of all is: could he have
> changed the fate of the Reich and what kind of Fuhrership would he have?

    Doubtful. In any event, the Allies would have certainly made a
strong case for trying him as a war criminal, which they would have
been justified in doing so.

    Thanks for allowing me to add my thoughts. Please let me know
yours. Heydrich is a fascinating individual.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:33:35 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Hello, Drew!


> As I read answers to my own question, I started to think about u-boat
> crews. I know that the Germans (from watching Das Boot) lost 30,000 of
> 40,000 submariners. Does any other branch match this fatality rate of
> 75%?-Drew

    Try Bomber Command of British Royal Air Force. I think some 50,000
were killed on operations.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:54:23 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:33:35 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>Hello, Drew!
>
>
>> As I read answers to my own question, I started to think about u-boat
>> crews. I know that the Germans (from watching Das Boot) lost 30,000 of
>> 40,000 submariners. Does any other branch match this fatality rate of
>> 75%?-Drew
>
>    Try Bomber Command of British Royal Air Force. I think some 50,000
>were killed on operations.
>
>    Terry


    I've read a lot these last few days about who had it worst - the Russian
infantrymen, the U-boaters, the RAF bomber crews, etc.  I think, from
reading a few personal histories from American fighter pilots, Rommel and
Patton, paratroopers in the Bulge, Donitz and his U-Boatmen, and in short
a good cross section of persons who fought in the long and horrible
World War II, I think that one gets to the point where life just plain
sucks and that to speak of it of getting worse, of stretching the misery
and the despair, is simply inconceivable.
    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen
could blow off fighting more than a pilot might be able to.  To be sure,
some people had it not too bad off - Washingtoners, prison guards, or
other such non-combat personnel.  But for the fighting folks, those who
were there again and again, in a tank, a U-boat, a plain, or in just their
own boots, war was a general drag and anything seemed better.
   But I do think the Allies had a slight morale advantage insofar that by
1943 and definitely by 1944 they had a rational confidence in victory.
I don't think there is anything worse than having to fight on knowing that
defeat will come no matter what one does.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:29:53 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor

You can see the same paradox at the major naval base near Tokyo (it's
name escapes me) where American ships tie up next to Japanese ships-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Jim Adams wrote:

> Today I was thinking of a historical paradox.  As I stood on the back
> lawn of the Arizona Memorial Visitors' Center I watched a Japanese
> destroyer with her rising sun naval battle ensign sail past the
> Memorial.  Yesterday's enemies are todays friends; todays friends are
> tomorrows enemies.
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
> Cultural Resource Manager
> USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
> 1 Arizona Memorial Place
> Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
> ****************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 16:33:21 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <altinyay@BILKENT.EDU.TR>
Subject: Mr Listowner !

Dear mr. Listowner I have recovered all my messages for the 26/27
so thanks for the trouble. You need not to send them back to me.


Again Thanks A Lot !
Ozgur ALtinyay

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:38:30 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

50,000 out of how many in service?>drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

>     Try Bomber Command of British Royal Air Force. I think some 50,000
> were killed on operations.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:40:09 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Of course, with out being too cheeky, the people who had it worse were
the Kamekaze pilots, who a mortality rate of 100%-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 06:52:34 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

>    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
>had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen

There were even some exceptions there.  I'm thinking of the marine and navy
pilots on Quadacanal in the early days.

>could blow off fighting more than a pilot might be able to.  To be sure,
>some people had it not too bad off - Washingtoners, prison guards, or
>other such non-combat personnel.  But for the fighting folks, those who
>were there again and again, in a tank, a U-boat, a plain, or in just their
>own boots, war was a general drag and anything seemed better.


>William Lippert
>The American University


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:25:48 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships lost to weather

Someone asked about the ships lost to weather.  This is mostly from _Bull
Halsey_ by E.B. Potter.

On 12/18/94 third fleet was refueling.  Ordinarily (as I understand it),
with bad weather approaching the destroyers would have pumped sea water in
their tanks, but since it took 6 hours (according to Potter) to pump out,
the captains were reluctant to do so.  Thus the ships were riding high in
the water and 3 destroyers capsized losing all but 74 of their 831 crewman.
 Counting crew lost from other ships the total was almost 800 men lost.  In
addition 7 other ships were heavily damaged and 186 planes lost.  The names
of the 3 destroyers were HULL, MONAGHAN, and SPENCE.

Halsey was found negligent by a board of Inquirey but first Nimitz and then
King ameliorated it to the point of being a slap on the wrist.  Later,
Halsey and McCain failed to guide Third Fleet around another typhoon and
many of Jocko Clark's ships were heavily damaged.  This time there were
calls to fire Halsey but because of his war record, status as a war hero,
and the fact that the war was almost over, he was spared.  However McCain
was replaced.  He flew home after the surrender ceremonies and died of a
heart attack that day or the next.



John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:30:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

John Riegsecker writes:
 >>    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
 >>had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen
 >
 >There were even some exceptions there.  I'm thinking of the marine and navy
 >pilots on Quadacanal in the early days.

John,

Don't forget that the US Army Air Forces were also on Guadalcanal
starting in Aug 42 flying their pitiful P-400s and P-39s.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:55:31 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships lost to weather

John Riegsecker  writes;

        On 12/18/94 third fleet was refueling...


WOW! Deja vu! ;-)

I know what you meant, but couldn't miss the opp!               Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:55:24 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-02-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/02 Thu. Japanese aircraft bomb United States airstrip and
           planes on the ground at Tacloban, Leyte, P. I.; raid
           is repeated on 3 November.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:21:38 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-01-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/01 Wed. Submarine RAY (SS-271) lands men and supplies on west
           coast of Mindoro, P. I.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer ABNER ROAD (DD-526), by suicide plane,
              Leyte Gulf, P. I.,
              10 d. 47'N., 125 d. 22'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Leyte Gulf, P.
             I.:
             Destroyer ANDERSON (DD-411), by suicide plane,
              10 d. 11'N., 125 d. 02'E.
             Destroyer BUSH (DD-529), by horizontal bomber,
              10 d. 13'N., 125 d. 21'E.
             Destroyers CLAXTON (DD-571) and AMMEN (DD-527), by
              suicide planes,
              10 d. 40'N., 125 d. 20'E.
             Destroyer KILLEN (DD-593), by horizontal bomber,
              10 d. 40'N., 125 d. 20'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:47:39 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: question-- aircraft (Me 102)

Mike, this may only be a coincidence, but Armand van Ishoven's book
MESSERSCHMIDT (Omega Books, 1975) has an appendice of exports of
Messerschmidt aircraft 1939-1944.  Hungary received 3 Bf 109D, 40 Bf 109E
and 59 Bf 109G.  Add those up and you get--yep-- 102 Me fighters.  Hey,
it may be a coincidence, but you never know.  After all, this is the
HUNGARIAN Air Force we're talking about.  RUMANIANS would NEVER have that
sort of data entry problem.

Seriously, I find no reference to a "Me 102" designation in any of my
available books on Messerschmidt.  Perhaps it was an error in translation?
Another wild guess could be a reference to the Me 410's they were trying
to build locally later in the war.  The 410's forerunner was the Me210--maybe
there was a case of simple numeral transposition?


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:14:35 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

At 10:30 AM 11/2/94 -0500, mc killop wrote:
>John Riegsecker writes:
> >>    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
> >>had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen
> >
> >There were even some exceptions there.  I'm thinking of the marine and navy
> >pilots on Quadacanal in the early days.
>
>John,
>
>Don't forget that the US Army Air Forces were also on Guadalcanal
>starting in Aug 42 flying their pitiful P-400s and P-39s.
>

Jack,

True.  I didn't mean to slight anybody, it's just that I tend to read more
about the marines and navy pilots.  Also, I know to spell Quadacanal with a
G. :-)


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:20:25 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:49,000 pound bomb

I went home and looked through my books, but the only mention that
I could find was to an experimental US bomb that was 42,000 pounds, no
mention on what plane would carry it.  On the picture does it say what
air force developed it?  The largest British bomb I could find was the
'earthquake' bomb, 22,000 pounds that you dropped near a target so
that the seismic waves could shake it apart (shake, rattle and roll :)
I think the B-36 could carry a monster like that though.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:44:46 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: more on bersaglieri

 I just wanted to expand on a couple of points from my last post on this subjectFirst a couple of small corrections:
        1. I looked at some photos last night and the bersaglieri cockerel plumeis worn on the right side of the headgear (not the left).  BTW, the official
peace-time dress uniform of the bersaglieri consisted of a wide-brimmed hat witha small dome (similar in shape to the British WW1 steel helmet), and a short
grey cape.
        2. The Italian general commanding the "Grupo Schreiber" in Sicily was
Ottorino Schreiber (not "Ottavio").  To expand on my comment that the Schreiber
Group was an Italian formation, I am aware that for part (but not all) of its
existence this formation also had a regiment-sized German battle group under
Col Fullreide nominally under command.  The 177th Bersaglieri Regt did however
play a leading role in the Group's fighting from July 11-21.  It was commanded
by Col. Venturi, and on July 11 and 12 its leading battalion was actually
attempting to attack the U.S. forces in its sector, although it suffered heavy
losses in these actions (and in an air raid on the evening of the 11th).

        I wanted to mention that the bersaglieri regiments forming the infantry
component of the three Italian armored divisions were completely motorized.
One of these regts, the 5th Bersaglieri, had previously (1936-37) formed part
of the first Italian "mixed motorized brigade" and then the first Italian
armored brigade (later upgraded to form Centauro Division).  The bersaglieri
regts in the "celere" divisions were bicycle troops, although their heavy
weapons were motor-transported.  The rest were in theory also bicycle troops,
but in North Africa the independent regts were usually provided truck transport
from higher levels.
        At El Alamein each of the two Italian corps in the front line was
bolstered by one independent bersaglieri regt.  The 7th Bersaglieri fought with
21st Corps in the north, the 9th Bersaglieri with 10th Corps.  The 21st Corps
bersaglieri were deployed as independent battalions, and successfully resisted
the first attacks in their sectors.
        The most famous former bersaglieri among the top Italian commanders
in North Africa was Marshal Ettore Bastico, Italian commander-in-chief for the
Libyan theatre from July '41 till the end of January '43.  Bastico was a noted
historian (having written a book, "The Evolution Of the Art Of War" and also
having been an instructor of history at the Italian Naval Academy), also served
as editor of one of Italy's top military journals.  He was the commander of
the Italian forces in the Spanish Civil War in 1937, earning a field promotion
and the title "Hero of Santander" in the Italian press for his successful
conquest of the rebellious Basque region, and his dismissal soon thereafter
for conducting separate negotiations with the Basques (Franco objected).
In late 1938, following the adoption of the doctrine of "Guerra di Rapido
Corso" (the Italian equivalent of the "Blitzkrieg") he was the first commander
of the fully mobile "Army of the Po" created largely on paper (in theory it had
two armored, two motorized infantry, and three "celere" divisions, but the
first armored division did not go operational until Feb '39).  Despite his
(mutual) dislike for Rommel, Bastico presided over one of the most successful
periods of the Axis campaign in North Africa.

Thats about all I can think of for now.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:02:55 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: Question...Aircraft

The FW58 has been adequately described.

I have also drawn a blank on the ME102.  I can't even find a WWII
aircraft with a 102 designation of any kind.

In any event, until the corporate reorganization of the Bayarisch
Flugzugwerke in 1938, the official designation of Willy
Messerschmidt designed aircraft was BF, not ME, thus the BF-108
Taifun and the BF-109.  The first aircraft to officially bear the
ME designation was the ME-110.


Steve New
NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:12:02 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Old 59

        Tim,


Replacement of "Obsolete" aircraft.

1.  Frontline combat units.

These units were almost never at 100% fill.  New aircraft coming in
didn't usually replace the A/C that they made obsolete, but filled
vacancies in the unit.  Consider all the photographs that show
P-51 Bs and Ds flying formation in the same squadron.  The same for
P-47D Razorbacks and Bubble Tops, and B17 Fs and Gs.

If, by some great luck, newer A/C were received that replaced
combat capable machines, these would be held in reserve to replace
losses, provide refresher training for returned wounded, advanced
training for green replacements etc.

Other secondary roles included weather recon, photographic duties,
radar testing, and providing training targets to train bomber
gunners.

War Weary A/C and battle damaged machines could be turned into
squadron hacks, or as a source of spares.

It was rare to return combat capable A/C to the states, there just
wasn't that much waste to spare in the supply train.  When it did
happen it was usually a particularly famous A/C that was used to
spur War Bond drives (Memphis Belle).

Obsolete aircraft back home were generally relegated to training
duties and squadron hack aircraft.  They were often used to
provide the necessary flight hours for desk jockeys who needed to
earn flight pay.

Many obsolete A/C never made it to a unit to be replaced.  Of the
100 B-32 Dominators built, only 15 saw service.  The remaining 85
were flown from the Consolidated plant to Davis-Monthan where they
were cut up for scrap.

Modification of airframes to upgrade an A/C to a newer version did
take place at times, but only if the modification was simple enough
to be installed in the field.  (i.e. adding solid noses and package
guns to B25s and A26s etc.)  With major differences between models
(P51B to P51D, P40C to P40E etc.) it was actually easier to build a
new airframe from scratch than to rebuild an old one, even though the
original prototype of a new model aircraft was usually modified from
an earlier version.  (Please note, this is under total war production
in the 1940s, when A/C costs were still reasonable.  Under present
conditions, when a fighter costs as much as the GNP of a small
Central American nation, it's cheaper to rebuild the airframe over
and over again.)

Now the Germans, late in the war, were sending damaged BF-109s and
FW-190s to underground factories to be stripped down and rebuilt,
Just like the Army does today with its combat vehicles.  Just as
we do with tanks, it's possible that the Germans improved the
airframes when they rebuilt them.

Finally, some A/C were turned over to allied forces when they were
replaced at the front.  In particular I recall reading that P40Es
were given to both New Zealand and the Netherlands East Indies AF
that had come from AAC squadrons.






In addition:

                Type                    Total Built

Fighters        P61 Black Widow         700
                P63 King Cobra          3303
                F4F Wildcat             8000
                P39 Airacobra           9558
                P38 Lightning           9923
                F6F Hellcat             12272
                F4U Corsair             12681
                P40 Warhawk             13733
                P47 Thunderbolt         15683
                P51 Mustang             15686

Bombers         A35 Vanguards           1528
                Baltimore/Maryland      1575
                A26 Invader             2446
                B29 Superfortress       3970
                B26 Marauder            5157
                SBD Dauntless           5936
                SBC Helldiver           7002
                A20 Havoc               7385
                B17 Fortress            8685
                B25 Mitchell            11000
                B24 Liberator           18188

Scout/Torpedo   PB2Y Coranado           216
                J2F Duck                567
                SOC Seahawk             576
                PB4Y Privateer          977
                PBM Mariner             1000
                OS2U Kingfisher         1519
                PV1 Ventura             1000
                PV2 Harpoon             1000
                Hudson                  2000
                L5 Stinson              3000
                PBY Catalina            3290
                AT17 Bobcat             4199
                L4 Cub                  5500
                T6 Texan                15000

Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
                C54 Skymaster           1100
                C46 Commando            3200
                C47 Skytrain            13000


Steve L. New
NEWST@CC.TAACOM.ARMY.MIL
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:30:10 EST
From:    Mary Evelyn Hoffman <MHOFFMAN@MONROE.BITNET>
Subject: Iwo Jima veteran

I am a high school librarian with a 17 year old social studies student who is
looking for a WWII veteran with memories to share about personal experiences
at Iwo Jima. Please respond directly to my address if you fit this description
and would like to enter into a dialoque. Thank you.

Mary Evelyn Hoffman
Naples Jr/Sr High Library
Voice (716) 374-5203
MHoffman@Monroe

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:48:50 -0500
From:    "Rudolph W. Hauschild" <Rwulf@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII MEMOIRS

A good source for naval first person accounts is an orginazation called
Sharkhunters. They are based in FLA and produce a monthly news sheet. They
started out to present the history of the U Boat, but they now have many
American, Royal and Japanese sailors who give oral histories that are on
cassette or written in the pages of the monthly. Their ads are in many WAR
periodicals(WORLD WAR II magazine...)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:58:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

Hello, Tony!

I would only add that the movie "The Enemy Below" was the first movie
in the post-war era that portrayed the Germans as being human beings.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:59:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Hello, Drew!

I thought someone might ask that question. Will check it out. But I
know that the 50,000 figure represents a significant percentage of
those on ops.

    More later.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:00:02 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

>From the DoD Newswire 2 November 1994

:BRITISH WARTIME BOMB DETONATED IN FRANKFURT

    FRANKFURT, Nov 1  - A British wartime bomb was detonated
in a controlled explosion close to a Frankfurt airport runway on
Tuesday.
     The runway was immediately closed to aircraft on Monday afternoon
when the 125-kilogramme (270 pound) World War Two bomb was unearthed
during construction work.
     There were slight delays to incoming flights on Monday evening
and A nearby motorway was closed for several hours during the night.
     Disposal experts decided to detonate the bomb, which had a
delayed-action trigger, on Tuesday morning after working unsuccessfuly
overnight to defuse it, a spokesman for the regional authority said.
     Firemen built an earth wall around the bomb as they waited for a
disposal expert to arrive from North Rhine-Westphalia where devices of
its type are more common, the spokesman said.
     "It was an English bomb which is quite rare in Hesse because
English bombers concentrated on northern and northwestern Germany
during the war," the spokesman said.
     American-made World War Two bombs are found frequently around the
airport, which was a prime target for raids during the war.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:02:14 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. I, 1964, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

BISMARCK SEA (CVE-95)

dp. 7020;
l. 512' 3";
b. 65' 2";
dr. 22' 4";
s. 19.3 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5";
cl. CASABLANCA

BISMARCK SEA was launched 17 April 1944 by Kaiser Co., Inc., Vancouver,
Wash., under a Maritime Commission contract as ALIKULA BAY; sponsored by
Mrs. M. C. Wallgren, wife of Senator Wallgren; renamed BISMARCK SEA 16
May 1944; transferred to the Navy 20 May 1944; and commissioned the same
day, Captain J. L. Pratt in command.

During July and August 1944 BISMARCK SEA escorted convoys between San
Diego, Calif., and the Marshall Islands.  After repairs and additional
training at San Diego, she steamed to Ulithi, Caroline Islands, to join
the 7th Fleet.  During 14-23 November 1944 she operated off Leyte in
support of the operations and later took part in the Lingayen Gulf
landings (9-18 January 1945).  On 16 February she arrived off Iwo Jima
to support the invasion.  On 21 February 1945 despite damaging gunfire
two Japanese suicide planes hit and started uncontrollable fires and set
off ammunition.  All efforts to save the ship were halted by the
exploding ammunition and she sank in 90 minutes with the loss of 318
men.

BISMARCK SEA received three battle stars for her World War II
operations.


    Steve L. New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:09:01 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:B-32

Steve New's informative post mentioned the B-32, always one of my
favorites.  He mentioned that 15 of them saw service.  Does anyone
on the list know in what theater they served and with what success?
Thanks in advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:12:02 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  49000 Lb Bomb

        I appreciate the suggestions that I've received on this.  It's
        truly unfortunate that the caption attending the photograph
        didn't provide any additional information.  Yes, it's an
        American developed weapon, but alas, no model number is
        provided.

        What I intend to do is to scan this photo into a PCX file, and
        then UUENCODE it so that it can be sent by E:Mail.  If anyone
        thinks this would help the search, or just wants a copy, or even
        just wants to test the technology, please let me know directly
        and I'll E:Mail a copy to you.

        Thanks

        Steve New
        NEWST@cc.tacom.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:27:00 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: [GEN] Transport planes

Steve L. New Wed, 2 Nov 1994 :

>Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
>                C54 Skymaster           1100
>                C46 Commando            3200
>                C47 Skytrain            13000

Steve, if either you or Emmanuel would please explain to me
and others about these aircraft.

I am familiar with ole C-47/DC-3 but my reference material
lacks C-46, C-54, and C-56 info.  I have never heard of the
Skymaster or Lodestar except on this list.

Just how did these 3 compare to the C-47?

thanks in advance.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:00:00 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

Jim Irwin's report leads me again to ask, what is the rationale for
attempting to defuse a bomb in what appears to have been a relatively
open area?  Why not simply detonate without risking lives?
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:29:37 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:49,000 pound bomb

I would second John Kollar's notion that it was meant for the B-36.
Alternatively, for the B-29 in situations where air opposition was
non-existent, perhaps in blasting out die-hard resistance in deep               bunkers in Japan and southern Germany after occupation. Or it may               have been designed as an anti-sub pen weapon if the war lasted long             enough for the -29 and -36 to see service in Europe. It was disclosed
in 1946. When was it ordered? If we get that, it may tell us a lot.
And what might have been the max load of an up-powered B-19? I recall
an Air Force historian on this line, or was he on MILHST-L? Over....

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:23:28 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Transport planes

> Steve L. New Wed, 2 Nov 1994 :
>
> >Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
> >                C54 Skymaster           1100
> >                C46 Commando            3200
> >                C47 Skytrain            13000
>
> Steve, if either you or Emmanuel would please explain to me
> and others about these aircraft.
>
> I am familiar with ole C-47/DC-3 but my reference material
> lacks C-46, C-54, and C-56 info.  I have never heard of the
> Skymaster or Lodestar except on this list.
>
> Just how did these 3 compare to the C-47?

I'm not either of them... :-)

The C-46 has recently been described as "A DC-3 on steroids."

It physically resembles the C-47 in design and layout, but is much, much
larger.  It's weird to look at one because those little tiny engines just
don't look like they would do anything.  :-)

The Lodestar was an early 30's design by Lockheed... Used mostly for
a civilian airliner... I believe it carried a passenger load of about
12..?  In any case, it's another tail dragger with twin tails off a
single boom.  Big, fat wings with slow-speed slats in the leading edge.
I was told it was really the first "large" aircraft to use leading edge
slats for short field work.  In many respects, it looks like an unrefined
C-45.

The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)

BTW: If anyone wants to actually BUY a Lodestar, there is one locally for
sale.  It has zero-time engines and low to zero time props.  The aircraft
has not flown (other than ferry flights) for many years.  There is a lot
of work to do on it, but if it were restored to a civilian configuration,
it would be a real interesting addition to the airshow circuit.  (It has
no seats in it, but all the overhead padding, lights and air ducts are
still in place).

Skymaster -- Isn't that the cargo version of the Lockheed Constellation?

Alas, I don't have any of the cargo/troop capabilities of these aircraft
handy.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:40:50 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  49000 Lb Bomb

Hello, Steve!

I would be greatly interested in seeing that bomb.

Thanks for the note and offer.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:42:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:B-32

Hello, Brad!

> Steve New's informative post mentioned the B-32, always one of my
> favorites.  He mentioned that 15 of them saw service.  Does anyone
> on the list know in what theater they served and with what success?
> Thanks in advance,

    They served in the Pacific and that is the extent of my
knowledge. I would be very curious to know where they were stationed,
and what targets they bombed.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:46:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Hello, Patrick!

More than likely they were guards' units. These formations were so
named for their fearless committment to attaining the objective
regardless of losses. Just a thought anyway. These units were
perpetuated in the manner you described.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:49:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

Hello, Mike!

  Interesting you should mention Fullriede. I take it that is the
spelling of this officer's name. I am thinking that this is Fritz
Fullriede who attained the rank of Generalleutnant and was awarded
the oakleaf decoration to the Knight's Cross.

>>  Col Fullreide nominally under command.>

Just curious and the post is most interesting.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:17:25 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: Better Late Than Never

>From the DoD Newswire 28 October 1994



:WAR HERO GETS MEDAL 50 YEARS LATE

    LONDON, Oct 27  - The bravery of a British paratrooper in
World War Two has been finally recognised after his medal was
mistakenly awarded to someone else 50 years ago.
     Ted Eaglen parachuted into France in June 1944 on the Allied
invasion that spelt the beginning of the end for Nazi German forces in
Europe.
     He took a German prisoner of war within minutes of landing and
was awarded the Military Medal for his bravery in skirmishes.
     But in a mix-up amid the confusion of battle, the medal was
initially given to another paratrooper with a similar sounding name.
Now a campaign by the Parachute Regiment has belatedly resulted in the
wrong being righted.
     "It's all a bit embarrassing," Eaglen, now 69, told reporters on
Thursday. "It all happened a long time ago. I'm just glad finally to
have it."

=====



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:29:06 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:German Holocaust Museum

>From the DoD Newswire 28 October 1994


:GERM. MAY GET HOLOCAUST MUSEUM

   BERLIN  -- A group of German intellectuals and writers is
launching a drive to build a national Holocaust museum.
   A conference will be held in the western city of Hanover this
weekend to draw attention to the cause, which picked up steam last
year after the Holocaust Memorial Museum opened in Washington, D.C.
   "We need a complete portrayal of Nazi crimes in a central place
and in its own building," organizer Hans-Juergen Haessler said
Thursday.
   Germany has numerous Holocaust memorials, as well as museums and
teaching centers at concentration camp sites, and plans are under
way to build a national Holocaust memorial in Berlin. But there is
no national Holocaust museum.
   The content of such a museum will undoubtedly be controversial.
The German government wanted the U.S. Holocaust museum to include
material on post-war Germany, not just Nazi atrocities.
   Haessler said financial support for a museum should come from
private donations, as well as federal and local governments.
   He said the museum should not only portray the Nazis' slaughter
of 6 million Jews, but the persecution and killing of homosexuals,
Gypsies, political opponents, religious opponents, foreigners and
handicapped people.
   Organizers have gathered 1,300 signatures on a petition,
including author Guenter Grass.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:22:47 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Home: US: Illinois at war

Hello, Peter!

Thanks for the note.

> Wooden tires.
> A lot of people used them, but they were far from populair.

    I'll bet they weren't popular. I can imagine how uncomfortable
they were.

 > They lasted not so long for several reasons,
>    - the wood "disapeared" on the road, some people try to keep them
>      in condition by putting nails in it.
>    - some people prefere to use the wood for cooking
>      ( no electric, no gaz, co coal , only wood but no forest.
>        if we see 2 trees together we say "look a forest" )
>    - our bicycle  was stolen by a  razzia  and then
>      you don't need a replacement for tires.

    Hopefully we won't see the likes of those days again, where wood
has to be used as the primary construction material for tires of any
sort.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:27:31 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

Hello, Brad!

To answer your question. The "open" areas in which a bomb is to be
detonated are never very far from populated areas. In a country as
small as Germany and the area in which this bomb was found, this area
around the airport is heavily populated. Shrapnel from the bomb
landing in a populated area is a distinct possibility.

Also to physically handle this bomb, i.e. move it elsewhere, runs the
risk of explosion, as the jarring or transit of the bomb could cause
it to explode.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 16:51:43 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

 Yes, I believe that is the same Fullreide.  I also ran across the name in
regard to German units operating in Tunisia in spring '43.  And didn't I see
him mentioned in another post recently.  I'd be interested in seeing a full
biographical sketch of this officer.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:58:45 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: GEN:dangerous jobs

Among the dangerous "jobs" too, being on the Murmansk convoys.
Days without nights, night for days, a freezing hell, ceaseless
attacks by German bombers, wolfpacks chasing you, convoys decimated,
and dying drowned in the icy waters of the arctic.
Wouldn't have liked to be there.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:00:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 3 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 69 P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s on armed
reconnaissance over E Burma, SW and SE China, and N French Indochina hit
targets of opportunity in the Lungling, China area, damage a railroad bridge
S of Lashio, Burma, hit the town of Mangshih, China and destroy a nearby
warehouse. In China, the fighter-bombers hit the town areas and docks at
Takhing and Tengyun, attack troops in the Mosun area, destroy 2 Japanese
fighters near Amoy, hit trains at Hongay, French Indochina, and bomb areas on
Hainan Island.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s, supported by 18
P-47s, hit Nawnghkio Airfield; a single B-25 attacks targets of opportunity
between Myitkyina and Lashio; 90+ fighter-bombers attack bridges, enemy
forces, town areas and numerous targets of opportunity at and Hinlong,
China and Kawngmu, Namhai, Tonlon, Ho-hko, Namhsum, Hkusan, Hkawngwa,
Wingkang, Namhkam, and S of Mansi.  Tenth AF transports fly 240+ sorties to
forward areas.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 49 B-29s, operating from rear
bases in the Calcutta, India area, bomb the Malagon railroad yards in Burma;
almost as many others hit alternate targets.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 50th Troop
Carrier Wing moves from Le Mans to Chartres; HQ 441st Troop Carrier Group
and the 100th and 301st Troop Carrier Squadrons move from St Marceau to Dreux
with C-47s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 140+ B-26s and A-20s hit
a rail overpass at Kaiserslautern, and rail bridges at Neuwied-Irlich, Bad
Munster am Stein, Morscheid and Konz-Karthaus; fighters fly armed
reconnaissance, ground forces cover, attack railroads, bridge, and
observation posts in W Germany, and escort 9th Bombardment Division
aircraft. In France, HQ 64th Fighter Wing moves from Dole to Ludres; HQ
50th Fighter Group and the 10th, 81st and 313th Fighter Squadrons move from
Lyons/Bron to Toul/Ochey with P-47s; the 34th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command (attached to Provisional Reconnaissance
Group), moves from Dijon to Azelot with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 46 B-17s and
B-24s, in an operation adapted to bad weather and flying without escort, bomb
Vienna S ordnance depot, Moosbierbaum oil refinery, Munich W marshalling yard
in Germany, Klagenfurt aircraft factory, the towns of Innsbruck and Graz, and
the rail line SE of Graz; the bombers attack individually, depending on cloud
cover for protection; 30+ other heavy bombers abort due to clearing weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Heavy clouds over most of N Italy
begin to disperse; medium bombers are still grounded but fighter-bombers
manage to fly 8 sorties against gun positions in mountains S of Bologna,
Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 14 B-24s from Guam Island pound shipping at
Chichi Jima and Haha Jima Islands. 34 P-47s from Saipan Island bomb and
strafe Pagan Island.  B-24s from Saipan Island continue armed reconnaissance
and snooper missions over Marcus and Iwo Jima Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-25s bomb Alicante Airfield on Negros Island and P-40s hit a
highway and oil dump N of Ormoc on Leyte Island; HQ 6th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group moves from Biak Island to Leyte Island; the 110th
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves
from Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte Island but the air echelon operates from
Tacloban, Leyte Island with P-40s. A-20s and B-25s bomb Babo Airfield on New
Guinea. During the night of 3/4 Nov harassing strikes are flown at airfields
in the C Philippine Islands, on the NE peninsula of Celebes Island, and on
Halmahera Island in the Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0100Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP:49,000 pound bomb

Heny Sirotin writes:

 >I would second John Kollar's notion that it was meant for the B-36.
 >Alternatively, for the B-29 in situations where air opposition was
 >non-existent, perhaps in blasting out die-hard resistance in deep
 >bunkers in Japan and southern Germany after occupation. Or it may
 >have been designed as an anti-sub pen weapon if the war lasted long
 >enough for the -29 and -36 to see service in Europe. It was disclosed
 >in 1946. When was it ordered? If we get that, it may tell us a lot.
 >And what might have been the max load of an up-powered B-19?

The information I have is that the maximum bomb load of the XB-19
was 37,100 pounds (16,828 kg) and that was with a reduced fuel
load.  That was with the R-3350-5 radial engines; I have no figures
for the V-3420-11 liquid cooled engines of the XB-19A.

On 29 Jan 49, a B-36B established a record bomb lift by taking a
pair of dummy 42,000 pound (19,051 kg) bombs aloft at Muroc AFB,
California.  (Before anyone asks, Muroc AFB was renamed Edwards AFB
in Dec 49.)  At a restricted gross weight, the B-36B could carry a
bomb load of 86,000 pounds (39,010 kg).

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:43:44 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTH

Jack, what I would like as a present for the Marine Corps Birthday this year is
that there will be a Marine Corps for as long as this Republic exists and
endures. On another matter, re/your post about Navy and Marine Corps aircraft
markings, write Major John M. Ellott, USMC, Ret., 1608 Frances Drive,
Woodbridge, VA 22191, (703) 494-6114. He is the duty expert on this and has
already published four books on the subject. He was in mhy my office today and
said that he would be glad to hear from you and help you in whatever way he
can. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:26:41 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO"The big what"

Rudi, you mentioned that part of the reason for the Soviet collapse in 41
was because of the offensive dispositions of the army.  Would you (could you)
elaborate on this?

Thanks in advance.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:43:56 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTH

Dear Cheryl, I feel certain that Jim will respond to your post, but I say that
celebrate our birthday by all means and appropriately. Check with your local
Marine Corps recruiting office and the Marines there will supply a colour guard
and anything else that would recognize our day. I would like to know if and how
you do it. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:52:35 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: BERSAGLIERE(SP!)

 Good post, Mike, and very informative. Thanks for your research. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:58:47 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTH

The birth year of the Marine Corps has been officially established as 1775,
when, on 10 November, the Congress "Resolved, that two battalions of Marines be
raised consisting of one Colonel, two lieutenant Colonels, two Majors &
Officers as ususal in other regimentsetc.....Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:59:41 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN:dangerous jobs

I have heard Merrill's Maurauders had close to a 100% malaria rate,
as well as leeches, parasites, etc.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 03:27:41 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Transport planes

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Robert J. Granvin wrote:

> > Steve L. New Wed, 2 Nov 1994 :
> >
> > >Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
> > >                C54 Skymaster           1100
> > >                C46 Commando            3200
> > >                C47 Skytrain            13000

> The C-46 has recently been described as "A DC-3 on steroids."

The C-46 was the Curtiss Commando, a twin-engined transport plane with a
layout similar to that of the C-47, but larger. It was powered by P&W
R-2800 radials. Most models are recognizable by the unstepped cockit
design, similar to a C-130 or B-29. It entered service in 1943, first at
the 'Hump' route from India to China. Teething troubles on that difficult
route caused the loss of many.

> The Lodestar was an early 30's design by Lockheed... Used mostly for
> a civilian airliner... I believe it carried a passenger load of about
> 12..?  In any case, it's another tail dragger with twin tails off a
> single boom.

The Lockheed model 18 Lodestar was know to the USAAF as the C-56, C-57,
C-59, C-60 and C-66; all but the C-60 model were former civilian aircraft.
They had two engines of the same class as the C-47 (R-1820, R-1830, or
R-1690, depending on the model) but were smaller and aerodynamically more
advanced; so they were faster. Basically, this was the final development
of the better known Lockheed model 12/14 'Electra' series.

> Big, fat wings with slow-speed slats in the leading edge.

The wings were on the contrary rather small --- Lockheed used Fowler flaps
and slats to keep the landing speeds to acceptable limits.

> The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
> of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
> a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)

The Japanese built an improved version of the model 14, Kawasaki Ki.56
'Thalia', that was bigger and lighter --- not really an 18, but along the
same lines. The license-built Lockheed 14 was known as the Tachikawa LO
'Thelma'.

> Skymaster -- Isn't that the cargo version of the Lockheed Constellation?

No, the military version of the Constellation was the C-69, and the Super
Constellation C-121. The Douglas C-54 Skymaster was a military DC-4
(actually the second DC-4 design, because the first was sold to the
Japanese). The C-54 was less graceful than the Constellation: just a more
or less tubular fuselage, with a single tail, and four engines. A reliable
work-horse: on 79642 crossings of the Atlantic, only three were lost.
Roosevelt flew in a C-54 called 'Sacred Cow'.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:30:28 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: IWO JIMA VETERAN

I know several Iwo Jima veterans here in the Washington, DC area and I'll ask
them if they are interested in communicating with your student. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:34:51 EST
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: BOOKS: Sea Eagles - Bf 109T history

I am wrapping up my read of "Sea Eagles: The operational history of the
Messerschmitt Bf 109T" by Francis L. Marshall.  Published 1993, Air
Research Publications, Surrey, England (2nd print April 94)
This is a very nice book.  I do have one gripe, and I'll get that
out of the way.  The paper quality is not good enough to support
the wonderful photos that appear inside.  Either the stock can't
support the ink, or the halftone reproductions are too poor.
There is some wonderful detail there, but you can't see it.
Enough on that, the images are striking in that I can't recall
the last aviation history book that showed so many pictures of
young smiling pilots and then haggard combat pilots, and then
thankful vets or quiet graves.  This really jumped out at me!
The Bf 109T was the "Toni" built for carrier use.  With 70 aircraft
built and no carrier to serve, they went to combat with I./JG77 and
Jagdstaffel Helgoland.  And they operated from June 1941 to August
1944!
The author tracked down Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF records, interviewed
crews from all three, and includes material from family members of
those killed.
There are day-by-day accounts, with a/c lost/damaged, victories
claimed and/or counted, and condition of the crews.
Another great thing is that the Luftwaffe pilots interviewed are
low-rank pilots, with not all those high-kill numbers.  I like to
hear their stories, sometimes more than the aces!
There is technical discussion of the "Toni", and the condition of the
airfields in Norway and Helgoland.  Including the wood-plank runways.
I found it interesting that the low wing-loading of the Bf 109T gave
it more handling at high altitude, but the engine held it back from
giving a proper chase to PRU Mosquitos.  (But they did manage a few
surprises at altitude!)
Each chapter ends with the Luftwaffe loss list, follwed by the RAF
or USAAF loss list.  Interesting to see the ones the Germans gave up
on, but the Allied lists show as aircraft that never came home.
In any case, IMHO this is a nice addition to "War In Europe" libraries,
and a must for Luftwaffe hounds :-)
I believe that Phalanx Books has just started to import these into the
United States, but it could be a different importer.  A lot of the
big aviation book houses list the title.
There is a good index, and the Individual 109T aircraft histories
are listed by Werknummer as an Appendix.
322 pages, all photos B&W.

Enjoy!
Brian Nicklas

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 03:41:09 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Old 59

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Steve L. New wrote:

>                 P47 Thunderbolt         15683
>                 P51 Mustang             15686

That number must come from a P-51 fan? Its is always claimed that the P-47
was the most built, and that P-51 production was 14819. Certainly sources
do not always agree on the number of aircraft built.  I also have 10037
for the P-38, and 19256 for the B-24, 12731 for the B-17, and 2502 for the
A-26.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Transport planes

Robert J. Granvin writes:

 >The C-46 has recently been described as "A DC-3 on steroids."
 >
 >It physically resembles the C-47 in design and layout, but is much, much
 >larger.  It's weird to look at one because those little tiny engines just
 >don't look like they would do anything.  :-)

The C-46 (Curtiss Model CW-20) and R5C to our former Marine friends
was a "New Era" civil transport inspired by the Boeing 247 and
Douglas DC-2.  Work started in 1935 on a twin-eingine, 36-passenger,
all metal, pressurized airliner that could also carry 8,200 pounds
(3,719 kg) of cargo.  The CW-20 had a wing span of 108 feet 1 inch
(32.94 m) which was over 4 feet (1.26 m) longer than the B-17.  The CW
-20 ended serving the U.S. military in every theater of WWII, in Korea
and the early years in Vietnam as a non-pressurized transport.  A
total of 3,182 C-46/R5C Commandos were delived from 1942 to 1945.

The versions of the C-46 were:

a. C-46A-CU: 25 troop transports with 2,000 hp R-2800-43s.
b. C-46A-CK, -CS, -CU and -HI:  Freighter with cargo loading door
   on port side, strengthened cabin floor and folding seats for up to
   50 troops; 2 2,000 hp R-2800-51s.  Production included 1,041
   C-46A-CUs, 438 C-46A-CKs and 12 C-46A-CSs in Blocks 1 to 60.  500
   C-46A-HIs ordered but only 2 delivered.
c. TC-46A-CU: At least 3 C-46A-CUs converted a crew trainers.
d. XC-46A-CK: 1 C-46A-1-CK used for development tests; back to
   C-46A-1-CK and then to ZC-46A-1-CK.
e. XC-46B-CS: 1 C-46A-1-CK converted with a "stepped" windshield and
   2 2100 hp R-2800-34Ws.
f. XC-46C-CS: Two C-46A-CSs fitting with RATO.
g. C-46D-CU: specialized troop carrier with modified loading doors;
   1410 build in Blocks 1 to 20.
h. TC-46D-CU: 15 C-46D-CUs converted to crew trainers
i. C-46E-CS: single cargo door, 3-bladed prop, stepped windshield
   and 2 2000 hp R-2800-75s; 17 build all to ZC-46E-CS in 1948; 533
   were cancelled at the end of WWII.
j. C-46F-CU: As C-46D-CU but with 2 2000 hp R-2800-75 eninges. 234
   C-46F-1-CUs built and 166 cancelled at the end of WWII.
k. C-46G-CU: As C-46F-CU but with single cargo door and 2 2100
   R-2800-34s; 1 C-46G-1-CU built but converted to XC-113-CS; 229
   cancelled at end of WWII.
l. C-46H-CU: more powerful version of C-46F-CU with twin
   tailwheels; 300 cancelled at end of WWII.
m. C-46J-CS: Projected updated version of C-46E-CS; not built.
n. XC-46K-CU: projected version of C-46F-CU with 2 2500 hp
   R-3350-BDs ; not built.

160 C-46s were transferred to the USMC as R5C-1s.

Comparing the specs of the C-46 vs. C-47 reveals:

PARAMETER/C-46A/C-47B

Span/108 ft/95.5 ft
Length/76.33 ft/63.75 ft
Height/21.75 ft/17 ft
Wing area/1,360 sq ft/987 sq ft
Empty weight/30,000 pounds/18,135 pounds
Gross weight/45,000 pounds/26,000 pounds
Max speed/270 mph/224 mph
Service ceiling/24,500 ft/26,400 ft
Range/3,150 mi at 173 mph/1,600 miles

As can be seen, the C-46 could carry more farther and they were
greater favored by the Air Transport Command.  Toward the end of the
war, some troop carrier outfits were beginning to transitions from
C-47s to C-46s.

 >The Lodestar was an early 30's design by Lockheed... Used mostly for
 >a civilian airliner... I believe it carried a passenger load of about
 >12..?  In any case, it's another tail dragger with twin tails off a
 >single boom.  Big, fat wings with slow-speed slats in the leading edge.
 >I was told it was really the first "large" aircraft to use leading edge
 >slats for short field work.  In many respects, it looks like an unrefined
 >C-45.
 >
 >The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
 >of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
 >a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)

The C-60 was the Lockheed Model 18 Lodestar.  In USAAF service it
was known as the C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66; in USN service it
was known as the R5O.

The Model 18 was a redesigned Model 14 designed for commerical
airline service.  The Model 18 received it's ATC on 30 Mar 40.  The
aircraft had limited success in the U.S. with a total of 33 for the
airlines and 9 for corporate use.  The biggest US buyer was Pan
American who bought 12; 2 went into service in Alaska and 10 to
Panair do Brasil.  Lockheed did much better selling the Model 18
overseas; 87 were sold to various airlines with South African
Airways the largest user with 29 Model 18-08s.

The US Navy was the first to order the Lodestar for US military
use; the USN/USCG versions were:

a. XR5O-1: 1 Model 18-07 for evaluation with 2xR-1820s
b. R5O-1: Staff transport; 2 for USN and 1 for USCG
c. R5O-2: 1 USN version of AAF C-59 with 2xR-1690-25s
d. R5O-3: 4-passenger version of R5O-2 with 2xR-1830s; 3 delivered
e. R5O-4: 7-passenger transport with 2xR-1820s; 12 delivered
f. R5O-5: USN version of AAF C-60 with 14-passenger interior; 41
   delivered
g. R5O-6: USN version of C-60A with 18 paratroop seats; 35
   delivered

The USAAF versions of the Lodestar were:

a. C-56-LO: 1 Model 18-50 for evaluation; 17-seater with 2 1200 hp
   R-1820-89s
b. C-56A-LO: 1 civil Model 18H-07 drafted; 2xR-1690-54s
c. C-56B-LO: 13 civil Model 18-40s drafted; 2xR-1820-97s. First two
   suppled to "Little Norway" in Canad
d. C-56C-LO: 12 civil Model 18-07s drafted.
e. C-56D-LO: 7 Model 18-08s drafted; 2xR-1690-25s
f. C-57-LO: 13 civil Model 18-14s drafted; 2xR-1830-53s
g. C-57A-LO: Reserved for Model 18 to be drafted.
h. C-57B-LO: 7 Model 18-08 drafted; equipped for troops; 2xR-1830-53s
i. C-57C-LO: 3 C-60A-LOs re-engined with R-1830-43s
j. C-57D-LO: 1 C-57C-LO re-engined with R-1830-92s
k. C-59-LO: 10 Model 18-07s for AAF with R-1690-25s; to RAF as
   Lodestar IA
l. C-60-LO: Model 18-56 ordered by AAF with seats for 14 troops; 36
   delivered with R-1820-87s; 16 to RAF.
m. C-60A-LO: As C-60-LO but equipped for paratroop transport with
   18 paratroopers; 325 built in 3 Blocks; bunch to RAF as
   Lodestar II.
n. C-66-LO: 1 Model 18-10 with 11-passenger interior and R-1830-53s
   procured for Brazilian AF.

The Lodestar was obviously outnumbered by the C-46 and C-47 but it
was used on general logistic missions in the ZI, SW Pacific,
Caribbean, Canal Zone and South America.  Most were disposed off
after the war.

 >BTW: If anyone wants to actually BUY a Lodestar, there is one locally for
 >sale.  It has zero-time engines and low to zero time props.  The aircraft
 >has not flown (other than ferry flights) for many years.  There is a lot
 >of work to do on it, but if it were restored to a civilian configuration,
 >it would be a real interesting addition to the airshow circuit.  (It has
 >no seats in it, but all the overhead padding, lights and air ducts are
 >still in place).
 >
 >Skymaster -- Isn't that the cargo version of the Lockheed Constellation?

The Skymaster was the Douglas Commercial Model 4, aka DC-4.
Actually, there were two different DC-4s; the first one was a
4-engine aircraft with a range of 2,200 miles (3,540 km) that
American, Eastern, Pan American, TWA and United Airlines each
committed $100,000 towards the design and construction of one
prototype.  This aircraft was designed to accommodate twice as many
passengers as the DC-3 (42) during the day or 30 at night with full
sleeping accommdoations including a private bridal room.  It was
powered by four 1450 hp P&W R-2180-S1A1-G 14-cyliner radials,
had a tricycle landing gear and had 3 vertical tail surfaces ala
the Lockheed Connie.  The aircraft was very complex for it's day
and Pan Am and TWA chickened out in 1936 and sponsored the less
complex Boeing  307 Stratoliner.  The aircraft made its first
flight on 7 Jun 38 but did not receive it's ATC until 5 May 39 and
it was then handed over to United Airlines.  United used it for
testing and on one occassion, the aircraft took off from Cheyenne
Airport (altitude 6,200 feet or 1,860 m) on 2-engines.  The
complexity of the aircraft, it's excessive maintenance problems and
poor operating economics, casued the sponsoring airlines to suspend
development and the one and only aircraft was sold to the Japanese
in 1939.  It was reported that the aircraft had crashed in Tokyo
Bay but in reality it had been dismantled by Nakajima at the
request of the Japanese Navy and was used as the model for the
design of the Nakajima G5N1 Shinzan bomber.

The airlines agreed to sponsor a less complex aircraft and to avoid
confusion, the one and only DC-4 was redesignated DC-4 Experimental
or DC-4E and work began on the "new" DC-4 at the behest of
American, Eastern and United Airlines.  The new aircraft was 25%
lighter than the DC-4E and had a single vertical tail surface.  No
protype was built; the first completed aircraft was drafted by the
AAF as a C-54-DO in Feb 42; the first flight was 14 Feb 42.  The
production versions were:

a. C-54-DO: 24 aircraft originally ordered by American and United
   Airlines; had 4 1350 hp R-2000-3s and could carry 50 passengers.
b. C-54A-DO and -DC: As C-54-DO but with strengthened airframe,
   cargo loading door, increased fuel capacity, provisions for
   passengers or troops; had 4 1290 hp R-2000-7s; 155 C-54A-DC and 97
   C-54A-DOs built in Blocks 1 to 15. 57 to USN as R5D-1s.
c. C-54B-DC and -DO: As C-54A but with integral wing fuel tanks and
   provisions for stretchers; 120 C-54B-DC and 100 C-54B-DOs built in
   Blocks 1 to 20. 35 to USN as R5D-2 and 1 to RAF as Churchill's
   personal aircraft.
d. C-54C-DO: 1 C-54A-5-DO converted as presidential aircraft with
   15-passenger interior.
e. C-54D-DC: As C-54B but 1350 hp R-2000-11s; 380 built in Blocks1
   to 15. 95 to USN as R5D-3.
f. C-54E-DO: As C-54D-DC but increased fueld capacity, convertible
   passenger/freight interior. 125 built in Blocks 1 to 20; 20 to
   USN as R5D-4.
g. XC-54F-DO: projected troop transport version of C-54E; not built
h. C-54G-DO: As C-54E-DO with 1450hp R-2000-0s.  162 build in
   Blocks 1 to 20.  238 cancelled after WWII ended.

There were many conversions of the C-54/R5D by the military.
After the war, every major airline in the world acquired the DC-4
for commerical operations.  The first North Atlantic flight was on
23 Oct 45 by a C-54 of American Overseas Airlines from New York to
Hurn, England which was serving London with stops at Gander,
Newfoundland and Shannon, Irleand in 23 hours 48 minutes.  During
the following years, Pan Am, KLM, Air France, SAS, Sabena and
Swissair initiated North Atlantic service with the DC-4.
Trans-Pacific service was started by Pan Am and Australian National
Airways with the DC-4.  In Feb 46, American Airlines started DC-4
service in the US on the New York-Chicago route.  Eventually,
American, United, Eastern, Braniff, Capital, Colonial, Delta,
National, Northwest, TWA and Western Airlines all used the DC-4 for
domestic and interantional service.

The mainstay of the Berlin Airlift in 1948-49 was the C-54 and R5D.
Without it, the airlift would have been a failure.

 >Alas, I don't have any of the cargo/troop capabilities of these aircraft
 >handy.
 >

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 17:34:59 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: statue of liberty

Gosh Jack M.,  What a great sight that must have been, the Japanese and
German ships, then the New Jersey, and tall ships.  I'm drooling.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:40:50 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Japanese warships visiting Pearl Harbor

Jim- Thanks for all the info on Pearl.

Do any vessels besides US 'man the rails' or acknowledge the Arizona
Memorial in any way when they pass by? I was wondering about the Japanese
warship you mentioned in a recent post.



---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Nov 1994 to 2 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 2 Nov 1994 to 3 Nov 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 35 messages totalling 1840 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. question-- aircraft (Me 102)
  2. 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN SPA, BELGIUM
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-NOV-1944
  4. ME163
  5. more on bersaglieri
  6. RIP (2)
  7. WEAP: CVE-99  USS Admiralty Islands
  8. WEAP: CVE-98 Kwajalein
  9. italian army (2)
 10. OOPS!  45,000 lb Bomb
 11. MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt (2)
 12. INF: USN Chronology 11-03-94
 13. WEAP:  P-38 CBI & Alaska
 14. SUBSCRIPTION
 15. INF: Regia Marina, Part 7
 16. WEAP: Sonar
 17. TECH ETO logistics
 18. [Gen] Copied Aircraft. (5)
 19. 44,000 lb bomb
 20. Pacific Books
 21. WEAP:  Misc Aircraft Information
 22. [INF] USAAF 4 NOV 44
 23. HYPO"The big what"
 24. alpini in WW2
 25. RE [GEN] Copied Aircraft
 26. WEAP:  44,000lb bomb
 27. 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN
 28. WEAP B-32

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 00:27:00 EST
From:    Robert Quirk <QUIRK@A1.ATWINN.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: question-- aircraft (Me 102)

From:   NAME: Robert Quirk
        FUNC: IRAP-NRC
        TEL: (204) 983-4150                   <QUIRK@A1@ATWINN>
To:     NAME: IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU <IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU"@NRCNET@MRGATE@ATOTT2>

>From Heinz J Nowarra's book Aircraft & Legend, Messerschmitt Bf 109, page 8
(Background to the 109)
"...the direct predecesssor to the Me 109, was the M37 which was redesignated
Bf108..."

Prior to this the author mentions Messerschmitt's previous designs with "M"
prefixes eg: M18, M23, M29.

So, there may have not been anything prior to the 108.

Hope this helps.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:35:26 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN SPA, BELGIUM

  November 3, 1994

  While Montgomery's forces were fighting a terrible battle to open access to
Antwerp, the 4th Infantry Division was still holding the line just across the
Belgian border in Germany.  Once again I took advantage of the lull to have a
brief respite from war, as illustrated by this letter to my family:

          BILL SYDNOR AND I MAKE A VISIT TO SPA, BELGIUM

          Dear Folks, November 3, 1944, Somewhere in Belgium

          The other day there was an opportunity to go on a one day
          pass. Lt. Bill Sydnor and I learned that Spa was on limits
          now, so we decided to go there.

          I was talking to Mr. Rinehimer, our personnel officer, about
          noon one day, and he told me that this village was available
          to troops. Going over to our CP I found Bill Sydnor. He liked
          the suggestion, and we talked to the colonel. The colonel
          acceded to our wishes, and before he could turn around, we
          were on our way. We went in a jeep, taking a driver and a
          "body guard" to keep the driver company.

          After a cold drive to Spa, we started immediately to look for
          a room, before it got dark. After some disappointments we
          got a sergeant to take us to a small, but very nice,
          apartment hotel. Its proprietor, a Mrs. Boland, is the wife of
          a colonel in the US Army. She was stranded in Belgium by
          the war and elected to remain. Her son and two daughters
          got out just in time.

          The rooms, one for Bill and me and the other for the men,
          were very nice. Rich furnishings and a wonderfully soft bed.
          Private baths are uncommon on the continent, but there
          was a nice bathroom on our floor. This was the first time I
          have been in a tub since June 6, although now we get an
          opportunity to use QM showers every week or two.

          After cleaning up, Bill and I asked Mrs. Boland to
          recommend a restaurant. She sent us just across the street
          to Restaurant Esperiere. There we had a vegetable soup,
          french fried potatoes, peas, and STEAK, with wine to drink.
          For dessert we had a fresh apple (another first) and grapes.
          Also, we bought ice cream at a corner from a vendor. My,
          I thought I was in heaven.

          During our meal a Captain Stevenson, who used to be
          General Roosevelt's aide-de-camp, came into the restaurant.
          He is now our division's PRO (public relations officer). I got
          acquainted with him during the Normandy landing. He
          suggested we come over to the Portugal Bar after dinner. We
          did.

          He, a Red Cross girl, and a group of reporters were having
          a little party. Among the group was your city's Cy Peterman,
          a likeable, loquacious individual. Another was Henry Gorrell
          of United Press. Then there were various and sundry
          reporters from London and American newspapers. We had
          a fine time, the party dissolving about 0200.

          We slept late the next morning, then window shopped, and
          had dinner. Shortly thereafter we took off for our work
          again. These brief interludes are pleasant and refreshing,
          but they also make it that much harder to return to the
          realities of the present.

          In Spa, one would think himself in the States. Only when
          a buzz-bomb goes by or some planes soar overhead would
          one know there was anything unusual going on. There are
          trolleys running and the city has been unmarked by the
          war. Incidentally this IS the Spa you've heard so much
          about with its mineral baths.

          Things go well for us all. The mail has been a bit light
          lately, but it will come in a rush one of these days.

          My love, John

          This letter requires a few comments. Henry Gorrell will make
          another appearance in my discussion of the Huertgen Forest
          fighting.

          Also, it might have been best not to go to Spa, for it gave
          me an idea of how the other half lived. The contrast between
          life at a higher headquarters and the front was striking, and
          I began to regret my decision to turn down an offer in the
          US to become a general's aide, in order to remain with my
          friends.

          Excerpt from Chapter 11 of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 04:33:05 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-NOV-1944

On 04-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The British I Corps continues to advance on the Maas
estuary, capturing Geertruidenberg. The first Allied minesweepers reache
Antwerp and begin to clear the Scheldt estuary. In the US 7th Army sector,
the 3rd Division continues to advance west of St Die.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front takes Cegled and Szolnok in Hungary.

Philippines (Leyte) - The X Corps is ordered to re-group and take up a
defensive position in the Carigara area, in the north of the island. In the
XXIV Corps sector, units of the 96th Infantry Division renew their attacks at
Bloody Ridge, west of Dagami. More night Japanese counter-attacks are repelled
by heavy artillery.

Burma - The 5th Indian Division occupies Kennedy Peak, south of Tiddim.

The Homefront
-------------
Army Seizes Plants - The Army, at the direction of President Roosevelt, takes
over control of seven Toledo, Ohio war plants because of a strike by members
of the Mechanics Educational Society of America.

Plane Crash - Twenty-four persons have been killed in the crash of a
Transcontinental & Western Air transport near Hanford, California.

College Football - Arkansas 7, Texas A&M 6; Army 83, Villanova 0; Duke 19,
Georgia Tech 13; Michigan 41, Penn 19; Navy 62, Notre Dame 13; N.C. State 21,
VMI 6; Ohio State 21, Indiana 7; South Carolina 6, North Carolina 0.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:08:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ME163

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with some more titles regarding the Russian Front. However,
I found two more books dealing with Normandy that I failed to mention
previously. They are:

             D-Day Beaches Revisited by Patrice Boussel
             Letters from Home by John Ausland

                     Paperback

The Tigers are Burning by Martin Caidin (concerns Kursk)
Siege and Survival: The Odyssey of a Leningrader by Elena Skrjabina
Commandant of Auschwitz by Rudolf Hoess
Hitler's Secret Service by Walther Schellenberg
The Man Who Started the War by Guenter Peis
The Death of Hitler's Germany by Georges Blond
The Survivor by John Ehle
Last Letters from Stalingrad translated by Charles Schneider
Treblinka by Jean-Francois Steiner
23 Days: the Final Collapse of Nazi Germany by Marlis Steinert
I Survived Hitler's Ovens by Olga Lengyel
Final Entries: The Diaries of Josef Goebbels by Hugh Trevor-Roper
New Lives by Dorothy Rabinowitz
Hitler Directs His War by Felix Gilbert
The Goebbels Diaries by Louis Lochner
Battles Lost and Won by Hanson W. Baldwin
The 900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad by Hanson W. Baldwin
Canaris by Charles Whiting
The Russian Convoys by B. B. Schofield
Stuka Pilot by Hans Rudel
Free as a Running Fox by T. D. Calnan
Stalingrad by Heinz Schroeter
Panzer Leader by Heinz Guderian
To Live and Kill by Stefan Gazel
Gehlen: Germany's Master Spy by Charles Whiting
A Spy Has No Friends by Ronald Seth
The Destruction of Dresden by David Irving
The Road to Stalingrad by Benno Zieser
The Scourge of the Swastika by Lord Russell of Liverpool
Commando Extradordinary by Charles Foley
Defeat in the East by Juergen Thorwald
The Blond Knight of Germany by Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable
A Woman in Berlin (Anonymous)
The Russians and Berlin 1945 by Erich Kuby
Enemy at the Gates: The Battle for Stalingrad by William Craig
Eichmann: The Man and his Crimes by Comer Clarke
The Fall of Berlin by Marshal Vasily Chuikov
The Black March by Peter Neumann
The Last 100 Days by John Toland
Ploesti by James Duggan and Carroll Stewart
Seven Men at Daybreak by Alan Burgess (concerns the assassination of
Heydrich)
Himmler by Willi Frischauer
The Theory and Practice of Hell by Eugen Kogon
The German Generals Talk by B. H. Liddell-Hart
The Last Days of Hitler by H. R. Trevor-Roper
The Fatal Decisions by Seymour Friedan
Escape from Colditz by P. R. Reed
The Men who tried to Kill Hitler by Manvell and Fraenkel
Marshal Zhukov's Greatest Battles by Georgi K. Zhukov
The Great Escape by Paul Brickhill
The Man with the Miraculous Hands by Josef Kessel
Minister of Death by Quentin Reynolds
Code Name Valkyrie by James Forman
Berlin: Story of a Battle by Andrew Tully
The Eichmann Commandos by Justice Michael Musmanno
The Trial of Adolf Eichmann by Dewey Linze
Martyrs and Fighters by Philip Friedmann


This is the first installment of many more dealing with the Russian
Front. More tomorrow.

All the best.


Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:13:24 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

Hello, Mike!

I will be very happy to oblige. I corresponded with his wife.

I will get the info to you tomorrow.

Thanks again for your fine post.

Terry

>  Yes, I believe that is the same Fullreide.  I also ran across the name in
> regard to German units operating in Tunisia in spring '43.  And didn't I see
> him mentioned in another post recently.  I'd be interested in seeing a full
> biographical sketch of this officer.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike Yaklich
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:26:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: RIP

The Associated Press is reporting that Commander Wilhelm G. "Bill"
Esders, died of a heart attack at Penscola, Florida on Tuesday,
November 2.  He was 80.  Esders was the last surviving Douglas TBD
Devastator pilot that attacked the Japanese fleet at Midway.  During
the TBD attack by three torpedo squadrons, 39 of 41 pilots and all
but one enlisted crewmen were killed.  The only surviving "white
hat" is  Lloyd Childers, a radioman-gunner who later became a
Marine Corps pilot.

In addition to Midway, Esders also fought at Guadalcanal and the
Battle of the Eastern Solomons.

Requiescat in pace.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:36:21 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-99  USS Admiralty Islands

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. A, 1991, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

ADMIRALTY ISLANDS (CVE-99)

dp. 7,800;
l. 512' 3";
b. 65', ew. 108' 1";
dr. 22' 6";
s. 19.3 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5, 16 40-mm., 20 20-mm., 28 ac.,
cl. CASABLANCA; T. S4-S2-BB3

CHAPLIN BAY (CVE-99) was laid down under a Maritime Commission contract
(MC hull 1136) on 26 February 1944 by the Kaiser Shipbuilding Co.,
Vancouver, Wash.; renamed ADMIRALTY ISLANDS (CVE-99) on 26 April 1944;
launched on 10 May 1944; sponsored by Mrs. Homer Norman Wallin, and
commissioned at Astoria, Oreg., on 13 June 1944, Capt. J. D. Barner in
temporary command. Later that day, command of the ship passed to Capt.
M. E. A. Gouin.

The escort carrier departed Astoria on 2 July for shakedown training in
Puget Sound and then sailed for San Francisco to take on fuel oil and
aviation gas. She arrived at San Diego on 14 July for further training
before becoming a unit of the Carrier Transport Squadron, Pacific Fleet,
with the task of transporting aircraft, material, and personnel to
support front line carrier operations.

After a brief pause at Pearl Harbor, ADMIRALTY ISLANDS got underway for
the Marshall Islands. She disembarked her cargo at Majuro Atoll on 9
August and immediately returned to Pearl Harbor. The carrier then
shuttled more planes and personnel back to San Francisco, arriving there
on the 24th. She spent the month of September making a shuttle from the
west coast to Finschhafen, New Guinea, and back. Upon her arrival at San
Diego on 7 October, the ship underwent alterations from the 8th through
the 26th. On 29 October, ADMIRALTY ISLANDS sailed for the Naval Air
Station, Alameda, Calif., to load Army aircraft and personnel for
transportation to New Guinea. She reached Finschhafen on 21 November,
unloaded, and continued on to Manus Island. After a brief pause at
Seeadler Harbor on 23 November, she touched at Pearl Harbor on 6 and 7
December before reaching San Diego a week later to load aircraft and
military personnel. She returned to Pearl Harbor on 24 December and on
the day after Christmas got underway for Guam.

ADMIRALTY ISLANDS reached Guam on 6 January 1945. She conducted
refresher aircraft landing operations off that island for two days, then
sailed for Pearl Harbor on the 10th. The carrier reached Hawaii on the
20th and began repairs to her main engine. After the yard work was
finished on 31 January she took on 61 aircraft, slated to replace combat
losses. ADMIRALTY ISLANDS left Pearl Harbor on 2 February to support
carrier operations in the campaign to seize Iwo Jima. After short stops
at Eniwetok and Ulithi, Admiralty Islands got underway on 16 February as
part of Task Group (TG) 50.8, the logistics support group for Task Force
(TF) 58. Throughout the rest of February ADMIRALTY ISLANDS launched
aircraft and provided replacement pilots to make good the carriers'
losses. She returned to Guam on 2 March for provisioning and to make
minor hull repairs. On 13 March, she again sailed with TG 50.8, this
time to support action against Okinawa. The carrier interrupted her
logistics supply role only for brief returns to Guam for replenishment.
On 18 April, ADMIRALTY ISLANDS suffered her first operational casualty.
A plane was lost over the side while attempting to land on her deck.
Neither the pilot nor the plane was recovered. The carrier returned to
Guam on 24 April to undergo repairs on her boilers two of which had
become inoperative by the time she arrived.

Her repairs completed, the escort carrier sailed on 14 May to rejoin TG
50.8 and operations off Okinawa. She delivered numerous aircraft to
American forces before arriving, via Guam, at Saipan, on 15 June. She
remained there for approximately two weeks before she received orders to
join TG 30.8 and support air and bombardment strikes on the Japanese
home islands. ADMIRALTY ISLANDS sustained another operational casualty
on 20 July, when a plane crashed while attempting to land. One man died
as a result of the ensuing fire. On 21 July, the ship was detached from
the 3d Fleet and headed for Guam, where she unloaded her cargo while
refueling for the trip back to the west coast. The carrier reached San
Diego on 11 August: then sailed to San Pedro to undergo repairs and
alterations. The majority of the alterations where canceled because of
Japan's surrender and, following completion of essential repairs,
ADMIRALTY ISLANDS sailed on 1 September to become a member of the
"Magic-Carpet" fleet for assistance in the return of American troops to
home. On 25 September, operational control of the carrier was
transferred to the Carrier Transport Squadron, Pacific Fleet.

"Magic-Carpet" duties occupied ADMIRALTY ISLANDS until she was
decommissioned on 24 April 1946. Her name was struck from the Navy list
on 8 May 1946, and the ship was sold to the Zidell Machinery and Supply
Co., Portland, Oreg., for scrapping.

ADMIRALTY ISLANDS won three battle stars for her World War II service.

    Steve L. New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:36:06 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-98 Kwajalein

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. III, 1968, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

KWAJALEIN (CVE-98)

The World War II battle of 31 January 1944, for KWAJALEIN Atoll in the
Marshall Islands.

dp. 7,800;
l. 512' 3";
b. 65';
ew. 108' 11";
dr. 22' 6";
s. 19 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5", 16 40-mm., 20 20-mm.;
cl. ANZIO

KWAJALEIN (CVE-98), formerly BUCARELI BAY, was launched 4 May 1944, by
the Kaiser Co., Inc., Vancouver, Wash., under a Maritime Commission
contract; sponsored by Mrs. Rudolf L. Johnson; acquired by the Navy 7
June 194, and commissioned the same day, Comdr. R. C. Warrack in
command.

After shakedown along the West Coast, KWAJALEIN cleared San Pedro 19
July 1944, bound for Espiritu Santo with passengers and a cargo of fuel
and planes. Arriving 3 August, she sailed 4 days later to transport
aircraft to Guam and pick up salvaged Japanese equipment for
intelligence studies in the United States.

Following repairs at San Diego, KWAJALEIN got underway 7 October for
operations as replenishment carrier. She loaded combat-ready aircraft at
Manus and sailed for Eniwetok 5 November to replenish the carriers of
Task Force 38 as they prepared for raids on Manila and the Visayas.
Continuing operations from Ulithi, KWAJALEIN furnished the big carriers
with the planes needed to drive the Japanese out of the Philippines.
During January 1945, replacement aircraft roared from her decks to Task
Force 38 flattops for strikes on enemy air bases on Formosa and the
China coast. KWAJALEIN returned San Diego 23 February for overhaul and
additional aircraft before resuming operations 9 March.

>From March to August KWAJALEIN carried aircraft on three cruises from
Pearl Harbor to the western Pacific keeping carrier-based air groups at
full strength for the massive carrier raids on the Japanese home
islands. With the cessation of hostilities 14 August 1946, the carrier
was assigned the task of returning Pacific veterans to the United
States. She made four cruises to the Pacific Islands before arriving San
Pedro 2 February 1946, from her final "Magic-Carpet" mission. On 23
April KWAJALEIN cleared San Pablo Bay for Mukilteo, Wash., arriving
there 3 days later. She decommissioned at Tacoma, Wash., 16 August 1946,
and joined the Pacific Reserve Fleet. Her name was struck from the Navy
List 1 April 1960, and she was scrapped in Japan the following year.

KWAJALEIN received two battle stars for World War II service.

    Steve L. New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:43:57 -0500
From:    COHEN <COHEN@ITHACA.EDU>
Subject: italian army

                    First I would like to thank Mike Yaklich for his
incredibly detailed response to my request for information about the
bersaglieri. Second, Joe Barone in response to messages on this subject
cautioned us not to confuse the bersaglieri with the Alpini. I'll bite.
Can Joe or anyone else give us a brief report on the Alpinis' role in WWII?
I assume they fought in Southern France in 1940 and in Albania and Greece
and perhaps in Yugoslavia But where else did they campaign? Third can anyone
give me more information about what happened to Italian troops in Greece,
Yugoslavia and other Italian-occupied territory after Italy left the war.
I read very brief reports indicating that in some places the Italians
surrendered peacefully to the Germans and were relatively well-treated. In
others they surrendered without a fight and were slaughtered by their former all
   ies and in still other places they fought the Germans and were overwhelmed
after heavy combat. Thanks in advance for any information.

                                     Harold Cohen
                                     Ithaca College

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:39:51 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: OOPS!  45,000 lb Bomb

     My apologies to anyone who may have been confused by this, but as I
     retrieved the photograph of the Bomb to scan, I noticed that I had
     mis-remembered the caption, it is a 45,000 lb bomb not 49,000.

     What's a couple of tons between friends?

    Steve L. New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:57:30 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

>
>To answer your question. The "open" areas in which a bomb is to be
>detonated are never very far from populated areas. In a country as
>small as Germany and the area in which this bomb was found, this area
>around the airport is heavily populated. Shrapnel from the bomb
>landing in a populated area is a distinct possibility.
>
>Also to physically handle this bomb, i.e. move it elsewhere, runs the
>risk of explosion, as the jarring or transit of the bomb could cause
>it to explode.
>
Question, is the the occurrence of unexploded munitions being found as high
in Japan as it seems to be in Europe?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:59:15 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/03 Fri. Submarine CERO (SS-215) lands men and supplies on
           east coast of Luzon, P. I.
           Japanese aircraft attack air facilities on Saipan and
           Tinian, Marianas Islands. The enemy makes a series of
           strikes in this area from which heavy bombing
           missions against the Japanese home islands are
           launched.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Light cruiser RENO (CL-96), by submarine torpedo,
              Leyte area, P. I.,
              13 d. 46'N., 131 d. 27'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer AKIKAZE, by submarine PINTADO (SS-387),
              South China Sea,
              16 d. 48'N., 117 d. 17'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:20:47 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: RIP

Bill Esders of VT-3 was a wonderful person, who was extremely courteous and
helpful to researchers. He will be greatly missed.
        Incidentally, the press release misstated the losses of the TBDs at
Midway. The correct numbers are:
    Committed       Shot Down        Ditched    Safe     Survivors
VT-3   12              10              2         -      2 pilots, 1 radioman
VT-6   14               9              1         4      5 pilots, 5 radiomen
VT-8   15              15              -         -      1 pilot,  0 radiomen
Total  41              34              3         4      8 pilots, 6 radiomen

The best account of Midway is Robert Cressman's A GLORIOUS PAGE IN OUR
HISTORY.
        To those awaiting my opinion on Frank Jack Fletcher and Raymond
Spruance at Midway, please accept my apologies. The flu and an important
project have taken my time. I'll post a reply the week of 14 November.
                           John Lundstrom

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:14:44 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  P-38 CBI & Alaska

More from AIRCAM No. 10  The P-38


The China-Burma-lndia Theater of Operations


The CBI was similar in some respects to the MTO in that the
Lightnings of the 10th Air Porce were transferred to the 14th Air
Force and both will be covered here as a single unit.  The 10th
started with three P-38 groups, the 33rd, 51st and 80th.

The 33rd was a seasoned group that had seen action in the Western
Desert flying P-40s. The 33rd moved to India in February of '44 and
joined the 10th Air Force.  They were equipped with P-38s. Missions
were flown in Burma and it was then re-assigned to the 14th but
continued to operate in the same area until the war ended.

The 51st arrived in India in March of '42 equipped with P-40s. It
moved to China in October of '43 and was then re-assigned to the 14th
and received some P-38s, using a mixture of Lightnings and Warhawks
until  reequipped with Mustangs in 1945. The assigned role of
tactical missions prevented it from rolling up a score of kills.

The 80th Group became operational in September 1943 flying a mixture
of P-38s and P-40s and was the only one of the three to remain with
the 10th the entire war. A DUC was awarded for their role in
preventing a large Japanese bomber force from raiding the vital oil
refinery in Assam, India, on 27 March, 1944, when they broke up
the formations and shot down most of the bombers.

Other areas in which the P-38 operated

The 11th Air Force in the Aleutians included one P-38 group, the
343rd but like so many others it also included a number of P-40s in
the earlier days. The group was under the command of Lt. Col. John S.
Chenault, the son of the famed AVG Flying Tiger Commander. Stationed
at Elmendorf Field they flew patrols, dive-bombed and strafed Jap
camps on Kiska and although their last combat mission was flown in
October of '43 they remained in Alaska until the war ended.

An oddity was the 32nd Group which operated some P-38s in the Panama
Canal Zone along with various other types from May of '42 until
November of '43. Though this group should have been a part of the 6th
Air Force it is not listed as such in the records.

The four other P-38 groups in existence were all assigned to the 4th
Air Force in the Western half of the U.S. as training groups. These
included the 360th, 473rd and 329th. Their duty was to train pilots
for combat units.

To sum up the Lightning, it enjoyed a highly successful career as a
fighter, saw service as the F4 and F5 in the photo recon version, was
modified to carry a bom- bardier in the so called droop snoot version
or a radar operator as a night fighter. They hung bombs on it to
make it a dive-bomber and level-bomber and even hung a couple of
torpedoes on one as an experiment.

It seems that the name the German ground pounders hung on the old
bird fit her best. " Der Gabelschwanz Teufel," "The Fork Tailed
Devil." As one ex-Lightning Ace put it, it was one " Helluva good
ship to fly and it did a Helluva good job."


    Steve L. New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:25:17 -0500
From:    "Robin E. Simmons" <rsimmons@GARNET.ACNS.FSU.EDU>
Subject: SUBSCRIPTION

subscribe  Robin Simmons  Florida State University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:18:06 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 7

        At the time of the armistice, "Impero" and "Cavour" were docked
in Trieste.  "Impero" was still under construction and a further 18 months
were needed to complete her.  "Cavour" was still undergoing repairs from
damage inflicted at Taranto, nearly three years before, and would need
another six months before she was completely repaired.  The Germans
captured these ships and suspended all work on them.  The Germans
commenced dismantling these ships in order to provide materials for
their war effort.  What remained of the hulls of "Cavour" and "Impero"
were sunk in Trieste by Allied bombers on February 15 and February 20,
1945, respectively.  "Cavour" was salvaged in 1946 and "Impero" in 1947
and they were scrapped.

        On September 23, 1943, an agreement of cooperation was reached
between the Allied and Italian navies concerning the fate of the Italian
fleet.  This was formulated by Admiral A.B. Cunningham, Chief of Allied
naval forces in the Mediterranean and Admiral Raffaele De Courten, Chief
of the Italian Naval Staff and Minister of the Navy.  The accord called
for the use of nearly all remaining warships, excluding the battleships,
against the Germans.  On October 13, 1943, Italy officially declared war
on Germany, formalizing the state of hostilities which had existed in
actuality since the armistice.  Except for the battleships, the units
returned to ports in Southern Italy and commenced operations.

        "Italia" (formerly "Littorio") and "Veneto" were interned in the
Great Bitter Lake, in the Suez Canal, with greatly reduced crews.  They
remained there, inactive, from October 1943 through February 1947.
"Cesare", "Doria", and "Duilio" remained in Malta with reduced crews
until June 1944 when they were returned to Italy.  "Cesare" remained
inactive in Taranto until the end of the war while the other two were
used on a limited basis, for training, in the waters of Southern Italy.

        The Italian government made vigorous efforts to have "Italia"
and "Veneto" returned to Italy and put back into service.  A proposal
was made to use the ships in the Pacific as carrier escorts.  However,
the Allies would not accede to such suggestions.  Instead the two ships
remained in Egypt, in the middle of the desert, like hostages, symbolizing
a vanquished nation.  They were finally allowed to sail home in February
1947, to face an even more denigrating fate.

        In 1944, the Russians had requested the immediate division of the
surviving Italian fleet, so they could take possession of their share.
While hostilities continued, this was not practical.  To placate their
ally, Great Britain and the US loaned a number of ships to the Soviets,
including the battleship, "Royal Sovereign", and the cruiser, "Milwaukee".
When the war was over, the Soviets again demanded the Italian ships due
them.

        Italy was obliged to sign a peace agreement in Paris on February
10, 1947.  This granted the "Cesare" (and other small units) to the Soviets,
"Veneto" to Britain, and "Italia" to the US.  "Doria" and "Duilio" were
to remain part of a reduced Italian Fleet.

        Separately negotiating with the countries in question, Italy
obtained renunciation of the ceding of the ships to the US and Britain
and a reduction in the number of ships assigned to France, which was
not scheduled to receive any battleships.  However, the ships in question
were to be scrapped.

        The "Cesare" was overhauled and decommissioned.  Given the number
Z-11, and crewed by and sailing under the flag of the Italian Merchant
Marine, the ship was transferred to the Soviet Union, at Valone, Albania,
on February 6, 1949.  The "Cesare" was renamed "Novorossik" in Soviet
service and was used as a training ship.  It is believed that she was
sunk in October, 1955, following the detonation of a mine.

        Despite Italian efforts to procrastinate on scrapping her modern
battleships until the clause in the treaty lapsed, "Veneto" and "Italia"
had their 15-inch guns sheared off and their machinery was destroyed.
These once-potent ships remained in this forlorn state for some years,
until October 1955, when they were scrapped.

        "Doria" and "Duilio" were of limited value due to their age and
design shortcomings.  They were used as training ships and alternated
as the flagship of the commander-in-chief of the Italian Naval Squadron.
"Duilio" left active service in 1953 and was laid up at La Spezia.  "Doria"
was based at Taranto and was used for some years as a training and barrack
ship for the local naval school.  "Duilio" was scrapped between 1957-1958
and "Doria" between 1961-1962.  With their demise, the Italian battleship
passed into history.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Matelin: They think you're General DeGaulle.
General: DeGaulle? He's not even in this war!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:44:40 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Tony Schuler wrote:

> >  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
> >and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
> >the movie, though.
>
> Dan,
>
> I think the movie you are referring to is "The Enemy Below." Here a couple
> of short reviews of the movie. It won an Oscar for special effects.
>

This may be a moot point by now, but the submarine thriller that Richard
Widmark starred in was "The Bedford Incident".  Different time, different
place, but similar plot.  Very different ending, though.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 12:45:51 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: italian army

To Harold Cohen:  I'll be happy to post some info on the alpini, but it
will take some time till I'm free to do so.  So please be patient and I'll
try to help.  I could also post on the Italian forces post-armistice, but
I'd have to research that a little... a few good titles that deal with the
latter topic are Melton Davis: "Who Defends Rome?" which gives an incomplete
but informative summary of Italian units east of Italy in Sept '43.  Also
Badoglio in "Italy In The Second World War" touches on some units.  Off the
top of my head, some of the more noteworthy episodes were the execution of
the Acqui Division on Corfu and Cephalonia, some 8400 Italian soldiers shot
by the Germans (the orders allegedly came down from Bormann's intention to
make an example)-- the division commander, General Gandini, who had been a
staff liason officer in many meetings with the Germans while the two countries
were still allied, threw his iron cross at the feet of his firing squad.
The Italians in Split rose up against the Germans, and there was also the
case of the Taurinense alpini division and the Venezia infantry division,
which fought off the Germans and joined Tito's partisans as the Italian
Garibaldi division.  And the Italian garrison of Leros endured a long aerial
bombardment reminiscent of Malta before being overrun by a landing which
included a parachute drop-- a good description of the Leros battle (including
comments on the lack of appreciation of Italian efforts by the British) is in
Marc-Antonio Bragadin's "The Italian Navy In World War 2".  Well, I'm pushing
my luck by typing this while allegedly working...I'll send the alpini stuff
later today if no-one beats me to it.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 12:49:45 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: TECH ETO logistics

On October 13 Sidney Kitchel asked for references about
logistics in the ETO.  The following reference just came
across my desk in a publisher's catalog:

Waddell, Steve R.  UNITED STATES ARMY LOGISTICS:
  THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN, 1944.  Westport, CN:
  Greenwood Press, 1994.  208pp.  $55.00.
  Waddell is an asst. prof. of history at
  the US Military Academy.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:43:42 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

>
> > The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
> > of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
> > a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)
>
> The Japanese built an improved version of the model 14, Kawasaki Ki.56
> 'Thalia', that was bigger and lighter --- not really an 18, but along the
> same lines. The license-built Lockheed 14 was known as the Tachikawa LO
> 'Thelma'.
>

It seems that the Japanese produced almost direct copies of some
successful foreign aircraft such as the Lodestar and C-47.  I
have also read of a Soviet version of the B-29 which entered service
at the very end of WWII and served well into the 1950's.  In this
case they were built from a friendly's aircraft and not an opponent's
- that B-29 had landed in Soviet territory and was interned.  I also
seem to remember that the engines in the first Post-War jet MiG's
were based on a British Meteor that was touring the USSR immediately
after WWII and "disappeared."

I'm all for utilizing new technology from whatever the source but an
exact copy could get confusing with front-line pilots and AA people.

Does anyone have any numbers/specifics of how many countries during
the war produced direct copies of other countries' crashed aircraft
(or parts) without permission or license?


Just wondering....

patrick
marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:00:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

Hello, Ron!

I take it that this question is directed to me as I mailed you the
other.

> Question, is the the occurrence of unexploded munitions being found as high
> in Japan as it seems to be in Europe?

    I don't know about that. I am, however, familiar with Germany. It
seems that every time a construction project gets underway,
particularly in areas that heretofore were forest areas, etc, some
sort of unexploded ordnance is found. There are many such occurrences
each year of the explosion of newly-found ordnance left over from
WWII. I would bet that there isn't a lot of difference, as a lot of
bombs were dropped on Japan, as you well know. I am certain that the
Air Force, even then, had a very good idea as to how many of those
bombs dropped failed to explode, and I would dare say that similar
occurrences in the frequency I know exists to this day in Germany
would apply to Japan as well.

    Thanks for the note.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:07:22 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: 44,000 lb bomb

Sorry it took so long to get an answer on the big bomb, but I
couldn't find the bloody reference - and I know better than to
pitch in this game without a cup.

Source: Army Green book series
The Ordnance Department: Planning Munitions for War, 1955
Chapter XVII - Bombs, p 471.
 A discussion of the 44,000 pound bomb. 17,600 pounds of the bomb
was high explosive, in this case tritonal. Total length of the bomb
was 322 inches, 122 inches of this length was the tail assembly.
  Resembled the Tallboy and Grand Slam. Discussion goes on to say
that several were ready by V-J Day and were available for testing
whenever the B-36 bomber became available.  The bomb also had an
air arming fuze, as well as fin assemblies of steel rather than aluminum.
The article goes on to say that the largest bombs dropped by the AAF in
WWII were 4000 lb. The British had the largest bomb used in the war,
the 22,000 lb. Grand Slam.

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge, QASAS                                                        *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosive Safety (USATCES)                  *
* Explosive Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                  *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-8769  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 13:49:18 PST
From:    Henry Herz <herz@C3OT.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

> Does anyone have any numbers/specifics of how many countries during
> the war produced direct copies of other countries' crashed aircraft
> (or parts) without permission or license?

Are you also interested in cases where captured foreign hardware was simply used
as is?  I imagine there are many many instances of this. I heard that, at one
point, 75% of the Afrika Korps' logistical transport was captured Allied
equipment. I suspect the Germans captured Russian aircraft in 1941 (at least),
but don't know if they chose to use them in combat.  The modern analogs are the
Israeli army's surprisingly large fleet of T-62, T-55, (and at one point
T-34/85) tanks, and Vietnam's fleet of captured US helicopters, tanks, and
M-113s.

How about when portions of captured hardware were directly integrated within a
weapon system?  The Germans mounted a Czech 76mm tank cannon into their Marder
(I think) tank destroyer.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:16:51 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

> I have also read of a Soviet version of the B-29 which entered
> service at the very end of WWII and served well into the 1950's.
>
> patrick
> marsden@euler.cpi.com

Funny thing about that B-29, it had suffered some battle damage and
was repaired in theatre.  The Soviet copies all had the same repairs
to the fuselage.  Talk about a family resemblance!!!

Later the Russians got a nice new B-29 with newer engines and later
modifications but decided not to incorporate them because they
thought it was a US trick to make them mess up their proven design.
I forget how the new B-29 ended up in their hands but I think it was
a Korean War era version.  I'm not an aviation guy but I remember
this little story as an amusing insight into the Soviet mind.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:00:17 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: Pacific Books

John Costello wrote an earlier book on the war in the Pacific about a
dozen years ago.  I found it interesting but full of factual errors
as well as garbled names (Japanese names were misspelled more often
than not) and incorrect unit designations (Costello had the 3rd Marine
Division and the 31st U.S army division defending the Philippines in
1941, and incredibly for a British writer the"Royal West Kent Rifle
Brigade" in Burma! Let's hope the  new book is better.
Jim Curry


On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Jim Adams wrote:

> A new book due out next week is by John Costello (author of *The Pacific
> War 1941-1945*, contributor to *"And I Was There"*, and others).  It is
> titled *Days of INFAMY*. It is about the other day of infamy on Dec 7th,
> 1941, the attack on the Phillipines and its relationship to Pearl Harbor.
>
> Have not read it yet, but John Costello was here last week to tell our
> staff and visitors about it.  He is highly critical of MacArthur and his
> loss of the Phillipines that day.  He points out how Admiral Kimmel and
> General Short were held accountable for their "negligience" at Pearl
> Harbor, but how MacArthur skated out of any responsibility for the loss
> that he  was responsiible for on the same day, and he had the advance
> warning.  The Philippines were not attacked for several hours later, and
> MacArthur was fully aware that Pearl Harbor had been attacked.  No alert.
>
> This book apparently takes a much more Pacific wide perspective on the
> DAy of Infamy and reminds that it was not just Pearl harbor.  After
> talking to Costello I am very much looking forward to reading this book.
> He is planning on returning to Pearl Harbor for Dec 7th this year and
> will do book signings and talks.
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
> Cultural Resource Manager
> USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
> 1 Arizona Memorial Place
> Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
> ****************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:01:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  Misc Aircraft Information

    Emmanuel,

    My source for those production numbers was the Rand McNally
    Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft 1914-1980

    Which is also the source for the following figures, so take them with a
    grain of salt, your mileage may vary:

                          Loaded     Maximum        Range   Maximum
    A/C   Span   Length   Weight     Speed (MPH)    Miles   Passengers

    C47   95'6'  63'4"    26,000lb     230          1,600    28
    C56   65'8"  49'10"   17,500lb     253          1,600    17
    C45   47'8"  34'3"     8,727lb     215            700     8
    C54  117'6"  93'10"   62,600lb     265          3,900    50
    C46  108'1"  76'4"    56,000lb     269          1,200    50
    C69  123'0"  95'2"    72,000lb     330          2,400    60
    (Constellation)


    The following is from JANES Fighting Aircraft of WW-II

    "The B-32 was the last U.S. heavy bomber to go into action in the war.
    Aircraft of this type flying a score or so of sorties before Japan
    surrendered."

    "Although the B-32 was designed to the same specification as the B-29
    Super Fortress and the prototypes of both aircraft were flying at the
    same time, considerably more development was necessary with the B-32"

   NOTE: I find the last comment intriguing, since the B-32 was the low
    tech backup to the B-29, bought as insurance against the combination of
    state of the art plus attributes in the B-29 not working out.



    Steve New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL
    The purpose of science is to develop a better mouse trap.
    The purpose of nature is to develop a better mouse.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 02:08:06 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Patrick D Marsden wrote:

> - that B-29 had landed in Soviet territory and was interned.  I also
> seem to remember that the engines in the first Post-War jet MiG's
> were based on a British Meteor that was touring the USSR immediately
> after WWII and "disappeared."

No, no such 'mysterious disappearances' were required --- it was all done
quite legally. To the amazement of Stalin, the British (Labour) government
of the time was willing to sell the latest British jet engines to the
USSR. That's why the MiG-15 and its contemporaries had copies of British
engines. So did many of their US counterparts, BTW.

> Does anyone have any numbers/specifics of how many countries during
> the war produced direct copies of other countries' crashed aircraft
> (or parts) without permission or license?

The B-29 is the only that I know of that was copied from aircraft captured
in WWII. There were more examples in WWI: the Germans copied the
Nieuport 11, and the Russians the Albatros C.  There is usually little
advantage in reverse-engineering captured aircraft; both parties are
likely to have more advanced aircraft on the drawing board, and the
changes that have to be made to adapt the design to the own production
techniques are too important. Other aircraft that were copied, such as the
Lockheed 14 (Japan), DC-3 (Japan and USSR) and PBY Catalina (USSR),
benefitted from license agreements that included as set of drawings. There
was of course the Japanese copy of the Me 163, were a license was agreed
on, but the drawings were lost underway.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s strike the airfield, buildings, and
offshore shipping at Suribachi and Kurabu on Paramushiru Island.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: The first report is received of a Japanese balloon SW of
San Pedro, California; the US Navy recovers some apparatus, envelope, and
rigging.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 34 P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s
attack road traffic and other targets of opportunity in the Mangshih and
Lungling areas; 4 P-38s bomb the pass near Menghsu, blocking the highway.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 17 P-47s pound Shwebo
Airfield while 6 others bomb stores of guns and ammunition at Mong Yaw.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 439th Troop
Carrier Group and the 93d Troop Carrier Squadron move from Lonray to
Chateaudun with C-47s; the 95th, 96th and 97th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 440th
Troop Carrier Group, move from Le Mans to Orleans with C-47s; the 99th Troop
Carrier Squadron, 441st Troop Carrier Group, moves from St Marceau to Dreux
with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 700: 1,160 bombers and 890 fighters are dispatched in 6 forces to
make PFF attacks on the oil industry in W Germany; 5 bombers and 2 fighters
are lost:
  1. 228 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil plant at Neunkirchen (151);
secondary targets hit are the marshalling yards at Saarbrucken (35) and
Neunkirchen (13); 5 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 76 of 77 P-47s
and 50 Ninth AF P-51s without loss.
  2. 210 of 222 B-24s hit the Misburg oil plant at Hannover; 3 B-24s are lost
and 93 damaged; 28 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 371 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 257 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg oil plant at Hamburg (238);
targets of opportunity are the aviation industry at Nordholz (9) and other
(2); 9 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 124 of 139 P-51s; they claim
0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond
repair.
  4. 186 of 193 B-17s hit the Rhenania oil plant at Hamburg; 2 others hit
targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 61 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and
18 MIA. Escort is provided by 110 P-51s without loss.
  5. 91 of 119 B-17s hit the Welhun oil plant at Bottrop; 26 others hit the
secondary, the marshalling yard at Hamm; 24 B-17s are damaged. Escort is
provided by 37 of 40 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost.
  6. 133 of 141 B-24s hit Gelsenkirchen/Nordstern without loss. Escort is
provided by 50 of 54 P-47s.
  Mission 701: 3 B-17s and 6 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands
and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 218 B-26s and A-20s hit
the Trier ordnance depot, Baumholder, and Eschweiler gun positions; fighters
escort the 9th Bombardment Division, attack railroads, bridges, and other
targets, and support the US XIX Corps in the Aachen area. In France, the
556th, 557th, 558th and 559th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 387th
Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Chateaudun to Clastres with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 715 B-17s and B-24s with
fighter escorts pound oil storage at Regensburg and marshalling yards at
Munich and Augsburg, Germany, the main marshalling yard and a benzol plant at
Linz, Austria, a troop concentration at Podgorica, Yugoslavia, as well as
attacking several alternate targets and scattered targets of opportunity
including marshalling yards at Wels and Kufstein, Austria, Erding Airfield,
Germany, railroad targets in and near Rosenheim, Germany, and the towns of
Strass and Muhldorf, Austria.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, 200o+ B-25s and B-26s of
the 42d Bombardment Wing (Medium) hit railway and road bridges in the Brenner
Pass; 130+ B-25s of the 57th Bombardment Wing strike communications in the W
Po Valley, cutting at least 4 bridges; fighters and fighter-bombers of XXII
Tactical Air Command concentrate on communications targets and trains in the
Po Valley and defenses in the battle area S of Bologna; some XXII Tactical
Air Command aircraft hit guns on the N Italian coast, some hit a rocket
launching site and communications N of battle area, and 4 P-47s bomb a Milan
hotel where Adolf Hitler is rumored to be staying.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 18 Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima
Island airfields; 2 others, on shipping reconnaissance, bomb Naha Jima.  2
B-24s on armed reconnaissance from Guam Island bomb Marcus Island. 16 P-47s
bomb landing strip on Pagan Island. The 316th Troop Carrier Squadron, VI Air
Service Area Command, arrives at Kahuku AAB, Hawaii from the US with C-47s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s again pound Alicante Airfield on Negros Island; the 8th
Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group,
arrives at Dulag, Leyte Island from Biak Island with F-5s. The detachment of
the 17th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 4th Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), ceases operating from Sansapor, New Guinea with F-5s and
returns to base on Morotai Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

04/0112Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:19:46 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO"The big what"

Cassady- Rudi hasn't responded yet, so perhaps I can fill this out.
Some German historians have contended that the Red Army was forward
deployed in 1941 as a prelude to a Russian assault on Germany. If you
examine the dispositions of the Red Army, particularly in the Western
Special District, facing Poland, this seems very plausible. But there
are problems with the argument that most specialists on the Soviets             believe make it untenable, at least in terms of any Soviet action               prior to mid-1942 (at the earliest). First, the Western Special District
forces were largely brand new and unequipped. Of the 303 Red Army divisions
at the time of Barbarossa, about 100 had been formed between February and
June 1941. On average, the divisions of the district had about 55% of their
officers and 35% of their non-coms, and these men were struggling with
drafts of raw recruits who were often non-Russian speakers only days
"off the farm." There were few trucks, little signal equipment, and
no AT ammunition for the new tanks. Overall, when the Germans struck,
Soviet infantry divisions were at 60% of their strength and two-thirds
of the tank park was so badly maintained it was unfit for sustained ops.
This data is from various Soviet sources over the last ten years, and it
suggests that any use of map dispositions is little more than pushing
flags around. Second, Stalin and the Stavka expected the major German blow
to fall in the Ukraine, and both the best and largest concentrations of
Soviet forces were here. But the Kiev Special District Forces were
arranged in a much more defensive style echelon structure. It is possible
Stalin considered a preemptive strike, and we can hope new data on this         may come out now that some archives are being opened, but his forces were       at least a year and more like eighteen months away from even thinking
about it. It is also possible that, expecting the German concentration
against the Ukraine, the Stavka deployed its forces so that it could
absorb that blow while the forward deployed units in the Western
Special District could strike the German advance in the flank and rear,
in effect a "swinging door" from the north that would trap the Wehrmacht
in the Balkans.

Hope this helps,

Henry Sirotin


PS-for those who expected another love letter on the Wehrmacht from me in
this subject heading, it will be coming. We had computer glitches here over
weekend, and I want to gather the responses I may have missed. I am beginning
to feel like Sakai Saburo in the midst of all those Hellcats, but it is fun,
and I may even explain my motivation :-)

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:30:59 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: alpini in WW2

        OK, here goes with a quick battle history of the Italian alpini
mountain troops in World War 2: (I'll skip the prior history stuff since you
only wanted to know the WW2 combat history)
        Italy entered the war in June 1940 with five operational alpini
divisions (the Giulia, Cuneense, Taurinense, Tridentina, and Pusteria
Divisions).  A sixth alpini division, the Alpi Graie Division, did not become
operational until mid-1943.  Alpini divisions were, at least on paper,
extremely strong numerically, with a t/o strength of 16,000 men.  Individual
rifle companies had up to 340 men at full strength, although actual units in
the field seldom came close to these target figures-- a little over 10,000 men
was the norm for "full-strength" alpini divisions in actuality.  Their quality
was excellent, however, with manpower drawn from rugged mountain regions where
the men were already accustomed to moving, living, and working in tough terrain
and weather, training at high altitudes which was (and still is, according to a
documentary I recently saw on A&E) among the toughest to be found anywhere, and
the prestige of an elite arm, which among other things gave them the pick of
the best field-level officers (Air Marshal Italo Balbo, for example, the
initial Italian commander in North Africa and the highest-ranking officer in
the Regia Aeronautica, had been an alpini lieutenant in WWI).  Alpini divisions
were organized on the normal "binario" system, with two alpini regiments and an
artillery regiment (24 75-mm mountain howitzers) that split into two "groups"
to facilitate the formation of independent battlegroups based on one alpini
regt and one arty group.  Alpini battalions were also configured with a high
ratio of support weapons (at least in contrast to the normal Italian infantry),
i.e., heavy machinegun platoons in each company and flamethrower detachments at
battalion and regimental level.  Organization was undertaken in this manner
because it was recognized that smaller units might become isolated and forced
to fight independently due to the nature of operations in mountainous terrain.
Alpini divisions also in general had fairly large reserves of trained manpower
(and a strong veterans organization) on which to draw for replacements.
        An alpini battlegroup (sorry, in this case I don't know from what
division) attacked the Little St Bernard Pass during the brief Italian invasion
of France in June 1940, but made almost no headway, even when L3 light tanks of
the Littorio Division were brought up in support.
        As you indicated, the Greek/Albanian theatre was a major sphere of
action for the alpini.  In the initial invasion of 10/28/40, the Giulia
Division was assigned the prominent role of guarding the flanks of the main
operation in the Epirus region by advancing through the Pindus mountains
further north and securing the pass at Metsovon (one of only two good routes
into the Epirus from the rest of Greece).  They made the deepest penetration of
any Italian unit in this initial phase, advancing about 35 miles into Greece
and coming almost within sight of the Metsovon pass, brushing aside the weak
resistance of Greek forces amounting to only one battalion.  However, this
Italian thrust was doomed to failure, in part because of both strategic and
tactical errors (the strategic mistake was to advance one division virtually
unsupported so far into enemy territory; the tactical errors were 1. the
dividing of the division into two "tactical groups," each built around one
regiment, and having these groups advance in separate columns with the huge
massif of Mt Smolika between them; and, 2. the decision, no doubt dictated by
having their men spread too thin, to advance through the valleys while not
bothering to secure the adjacent peaks.).  The Greeks quickly concentrated two
full divisions and one brigade from their reserve, and launched an encircling
counterattack against the Giulia.  The division had already been out of touch
with HQ for five days-- bad weather playing havoc both with radio transmissions
and with reconnaisance flights sent to locate them-- when the Greeks struck
(aided in at least one case by local civilians who helped drag machineguns and
ammo up the hills: the Greeks still used the bayonet charge a lot, but they
liked to improve their odds by attacking from unexpected directions, and almost
always attacked downhill).  The Giulia's retreat was a nightmare, almost all of
it along narrow paths under direct fire from Greek machineguns and mountain
guns on the heights, all while fighting off daily bayonet charges.  In one
action the Conegliano artillery group particularly distinguished itself by
holding back the enemy for seven hours at almost point-blank range, suffering
heavy casualties in the process, until at last the Italian gunners ran out of
ammunition (NOTE: the alpini artillery units were considered an elite within an
elite, and were particularly adept at transporting their guns over all kinds of
terrain and bringing them into action quickly).  After ten days, most of the
division (under General Mario Girotti) was able to reach the Albanian border,
but casualties were at least 20% including many prisoners who had been cut off.
(in the 8th Alpini Regt, which had the hardest time, they were considerably
higher).
        The Giulia got no respite, because the newly brought-up Bari infantry
division in the adjacent sector gave way, and the Giulia had to be sent right
back into the line, now holding the vital bridge at Perati on the frontier.
Girotti wanted to pull back behind the river, but higher HQ's ordered him to
keep one battalion on the other side.  This was attacked by much stronger Greek
forces on Nov 20 and suffered heavily.  Still, the Giulia held its side of the
river line, and in the growing catastrophe of the Greek counteroffensive now
fighting its way into Albania the division was actually considered one of the
most reliable formations available by the Italian command.  Giulia Div. was
heavily involved in the fighting for Klissoura in early January, where it again
was forced to give ground (but without sullying the unit's reputation in the
eyes of the Italian high command).  By Jan 15 the division, which had started
the invasion two months earlier with 10,800 men and 20 75-mm guns, was down to
an effective strength of 1,000 men with 15 workable machineguns and five
mortars.  At this juncture it was recognized as imperative that the remains of
the Giulia be withdrawn for rest and reorganization, and after the Klissoura
battle ended this was done.  Among other things, the Giulia had suffered 60
separate Greek attacks in as many days, and turned back the vast majority (or
at least inflicted delays and losses in a fighting retreat).
        Meanwhile, more alpini units were being hurriedly shipped to the
Albanian front.  The Tridentina's 5th Alpini Regt was among the first to arrive
(mid November), and was rapidly dispatched to the Mt. Tomorit area.  It too was
forced to retreat after tough fighting, and when relieved barely three weeks
later was severely depleted.  One officer in the relieving Cuneense Division
relates how he encountered a lieutenant of the 5th Alpini with about 40 men,
and asked if that was his platoon.  "No," the man replied, "its the Edolo
Battalion."  About half a mile up the trail the same officer encountered the
Edolo Battalion's commander, Lt-Col. Riveira, who had taken two machinegun
bullets in the stomach and could go no further.  By early December both the
Pusteria and the Cuneense Divisions were also arriving in Albania.  One
regiment of the Cuneense was dispatched to the sector of the front shielding
the important port of Valona, where it formed the nucleous of a "Special Alpini
Division" as part of General Messe's "Special Army Corps," and helped hold that
part of the front securely for the rest of the campaign.  The other regiment of
the Cuneense went to relieve the Tridentina's 5th Alpini Regt near Mt Tomorit.
(Eventually the 5th Alpini recovered, and were sent back into the line in early
'41: despite unfavorable positions-- they held the bottom of the slope, the
Greeks held the summit-- they maintained their positions on the Guri i Topit
until the fighting ended).
        The Pusteria Division established one of the finest combat records of
the alpini in the Greek campaign.  On Dec 8th Col. Psaro, commander of the
division's 7th Alpini Regt, was killed while leading a successful counterattack
with two battalions to close a breech in the lines near the Qafa Gallina.
Wherever the Pusteria fought, the lines were usually held.  During the
difficult winter, with temperatures often 15 to 20 degrees below zero in the
windy mountain passes, the alpini proved adept at surviving, often through some
picturesque expedients.  When their transport pack mules died, the alpini would
split their skulls with an axe and use the warm brains as a helmet liner.
Since the paint on the Italian steel helmets was often too shiny, men would
urinate on the helmets and then smear them with mud, making a kind of instant
stucco camouflage (good thing Italian troops often received a regular eau de
cologne ration, huh?? actually, though, in the winter of 40-41 in Albania the
Italians received damn little of anything, even food or ammo).  Sentries went
out with a wire tied to them, the other men in the dugout tugging on the wire
from time to time to make sure the man on watch didn't fall asleep and freeze
to death.  Etc, etc...  I should also mention the exploits of the 300-man Monte
Cervino ski unit, which, in the words of historian Mario Cervi (from whose work
"The Hollow Legions" much of the above was taken), "performed miracles" in
patrolling the snowy heights of the extensive no mans land.  The brutal winter
and more or less continuous fighting took its toll on officers as well as men.
For instance, Col. Tavoni, commander of the Giulia's 9th Alpini Regt, was
killed in action the day after Christmas 1940.
        Speaking of the Giulia Division, by Feb '41 it had been restored to a
strength of 350 officers and 10,000 men, and was put back in the line again,
this time on the Golico heights, on the south end of the Vojussa river valley,
where the Greeks were making their last major offensive push (an effort which
continued simultaneously with the Italian spring offensive a little to the
north in early March).  Again the Giulia held its ground, and again its
casualties were far from light.  Meanwhile, on March 9th, with Mussolini
present in person, the Italians began their big spring offensive toward the
Desnizza river, over the slopes of the Mt Trebessina massif.  Only one Italian
unit actually captured a defended objective in this futile (and costly)
enterprise-- the Pusteria Division's 11th Alpini Regt managed on the second day
to secure the peak of Mali Spadarit, guarding the north flank of the Italian
assault.  Greek counterattacks resulting in bitter close combat with bayonets
and hand grenades soon forced the alpini back, but even so (and despite being
exposed by the failure of units on their flanks to make similar progress) the
11th Regt held advanced positions near the top against further heavy pressure
until the offensive was called off.
        The German invasion of Greece in early April '41 finally compelled the
Greeks to retreat, although even then their rearguards fought stubbornly
against the Italians.  Tridentina and Pusteria Divisions led the Italian
advance in the sectors of their respective armies during this final phase.
One other incident of note regarding the Alpini in Greece.  I've seen it
mentioned in a few books that during the short Yugoslav campaign there was only
one area where the Yugoslavian Army actually advanced-- against the Italians in
Albania.  Wanna know what became of that advance??  It was counterattacked by
the alpini of the Cuneense Division, who won a complete victory, capturing over
1,500 prisoners (including three generals) and taking the town of Dibra on the
Yugoslav side of the border before the fighting ended.  Major Annoni, the
popular commander of the Mondovi Battalion, was among those who died in this
battle.
        I didn't mention the Taurinese Division in Albania, but they fought
there too, though not as a complete division, or even as complete regiments.
The Italian logistical support of the Greek campaign, at least until mid-Jan
'41, was one of the worst administrative nightmares imaginable.  The Italian
Navy was only informed of the impending campaign at the last moment.  Italian
ships were loaded for transport efficiency, rather than "assault loaded," with
the items needed immediately ready to be off-loaded at once.  Thus heavy
equipment, extra rations, ammo, blankets, transport animals, medical supplies,
etc, all of which were often in the bottom holds, was not readily available.
The continual state of crisis at the front made the Italians send units off to
patch holes almost as soon as they landed, with the result the heavy stuff so
necessary to combat efficiency was more often than not left behind.  Likewise,
the Italians usually did not wait for entire regiments and divisions to be
landed and assembled before being dispatched to the front.  Usually individual
battalions were sent off as soon as they hit dry land.  This resulted in the
Italian forces in Albania having a significant advantage on paper, but where
the actual fighting was being done they were more often than not both
outnumbered and outgunned by their Greek adversaries-- at least until the
middle of Feb '41.  At least two battalions of the Taurinense Division fought
in Albania but were employed piecemeal in the fashion described.
        After the Greek campaign the alpini saw further significant action in
two theatres, Yugoslavia and Russia.  The Pusteria and Taurinense Divisions
joined the bitter war against the partisans in Yugoslavia.  Pusteria scored a
major success in December '41 when partisans attacked its HQ at Plevlja in
Montenegro.  The partisans initially had a numerical advantage of at least
three to one (units of Pusteria actually in the town when the fighting started,
aside from HQ elements, consisted of parts of two alpini battalions, two
batteries of mountain arty, one mortar company, and a few engineers).  The
partisan attack came on a cold, moonless night, but in bitter fighting the
alpini managed to hold the town (one group cut off in the police station
defended themselves with rifle butts in hand-to-hand combat), counterattacking
house-to-house with grenades, and eventually evicting the last partisan
infiltrators with point-blank cannon fire.  Partisan losses have been put as
high as 3,000 men by Yugoslav sources (Tito makes it 1,200), and were certainly
high enough to cause bitter rifts between the Communist partisans and the
ex-royalist officers who were co-operating with them in Montenegro at this time
(each side blaming the other for the high losses).  Total Italian casualties
were 452 men.  BTW, the commander of the Pusteria at this time was Gen.
Giovanni Esposito (General De Cia had commanded the division against Greece),
later winner of the Medaglia D'Oro, Italy's highest decoration.  Pusteria took
part in the second of the seven major German-led anti-partisan offensives in
Yugoslavia (Jan-Feb '42: it was brought to a premature halt by severe weather
and accomplished little).  Both Pusteria and Taurinense participated in the
"Third Offensive" (April-June '42), and Taurinense also collaborated in the
"Fifth Offensive" (May-June '43), the one which came the closest to wiping out
Tito's central partisan force.  After the Italian surrender in Sept '43, the
Taurinense Division managed to survive attacks by the Germans in its sector.
Under General Lorenzo Vivalda, Taurinense Div then joined the partisans,
combining with the Venezia infantry division (another unit with a fine combat
record in Greece and Yugoslavia-- possibly the best regular infantry division
in the Italian army based on its fighting history in the war) to form the
Italian Garibaldi Division.  This unit was subsequently mentioned repeatedly in
partisan communiques for its successes against the Germans in '44.
        Meanwhile, a new Alpini Corps consisting of the Giulia, Cuneense, and
Tridentina Divisions was sent to Russia in the summer of '42 as part of the
Italian 8th Army.  Its commander was General Gabriele Nasci (not to be confused
with Gen. G. Nasi, a commander in East Africa), formerly Inspector of Alpini.
When the Soviet counteroffensive shattered the Italian 8th Army on the Don
north of Stalingrad in Dec '42, the Alpini Corps, alone among the Italian
formations, held its positions north of the main breakthrough area.  The alpini
did not retreat until mid-January, when the Hungarian 2nd Army to the north of
them had also been swept away by new Russian assaults, leaving the Italian
mountain troops virtually surrounded.  They managed to fight their way back,
joining the rest of 8th Army after a 300-mile retreat in temperatures that
reached 30 below (the alpini were at least the best-equipped Italian forces in
terms of proper attire for cold weather, due to their specialty).  However,
they suffered severely in this fighting retreat.  Giulia Division, which had
departed for the eastern front with its full 16,000 men and 3,200 mules (now
under command of Gen. Bedogni), returned to Italy less than a year later with
3,200 men and 40 mules!!  After this ordeal the divisions of the Alpini Corps
still had not regained their combat efficiency when Italy surrendered in Sept
'43.  After the overthrow of Mussolini, the Giulia was dispatched to the
Brenner Pass to guard against a potential German occupation, but was so
understrength it was unready to fight, and so short of ammunition that its
riflemen arrived with an average of less than two six-shot clips apiece.
        The Alpi Graie Division, the newest alpini unit, did however fight the
Germans in Sept '43.  Under General Mario Gorlier, it put up a tough two-day
fight in the area of La Spezia before joining the general surrender of the
Italian forces in northern Italy.
        That about wraps it up for the organized alpini in the war.  The first
units to see combat with the "Co-Belligerent" forces fighting alongside the
Allies was a motorized combat group of about 2,500 men, drawn solely from the
elite branches of the Italian forces-- alpini, bersaglieri, and artillery.
This unit saw its first action near Mt Longo in Dec '43.  It attacked and
captured hills dominating the Mignano Gap, one of the best routes north up the
Italian peninsula, which for some reason the Allied command assumed to be
lightly guarded.  In fact, the elite Luftwaffe Hermann Goering panzer division
was launched in an immediate counterattack against the Italians.  They held off
the first attacks, even when heavy SP guns were brought up against the
armor-less Italians, but a renewed attack the next day led to a German success
and a panic among some of the Italian troops.  However, about a week later the
Italians returned to the line (by now it was mostly bersaglieri doing the
fighting) and captured and held another hill in the same area.
        Given the length of this post I think I'll pass on info about the
Italian forces outside Italy in Sept '43.  My fingers are tired.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:33:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: RE [GEN] Copied Aircraft

    I would expect that the most confusion would be where the same airframe
    was being used by both sides in a conflict.  For example, the P40Es
    that the Japanese captured in the Phillipines and brought home to the
    Home Islands for air defense duties would never have bothered a P51 or
    F6F pilot, because they knew none of our P40s could be there.  The same
    would be true for the F4F pilots who encountered Vichy P36s during
    operation torch.

    Real confusion was possible during the Spanish Civil War, where both
    sides were flying Hawker "Spanish" Furies and Polikarpov I-16s.

    During the Russo/Finnish fighting, both sides flew the Polikarpov, and
    also Hawker Hurricanes, the Finns having captured both from the
    Soviets.

    Later, after the 1943 Italian Armistice, both the "Allied" Italians and
    their "Axis" counterparts were flying MC 202s and MC 205s against each
    other.

    The most confusing skies, however, must have been over Switzerland.  It
    didn't matter what side you were on, you could be intercepted by a
    BF109, an MS410, or even a P51.  I guess once you saw those bright red
    and white stripes all over your opponent you knew he had the right of
    way.

    Cheers

    Steve New
    NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 20:35:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  44,000lb bomb

    TO: Mike LaForge

    Thanks,

    Now I'll be able to get some sleep.

    The poor thin just keeps on shrinking, though.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 02:38:03 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Henry Herz wrote:

> point, 75% of the Afrika Korps' logistical transport was captured Allied
> equipment. I suspect the Germans captured Russian aircraft in 1941 (at least),
> but don't know if they chose to use them in combat.  The modern analogs

Not Russian aircraft, I think. Certainly not in combat; they would have
been completely below standards --- the 1941 aircraft inventory of the
USSR was almost entirely obsolete. Even Russian aircraft captured later
would have been too poorly equipped by German standards, and there were
little spare parts in any case.  The famous KG.200 used some captured
B-17s and B-24s, mainly for special operations, such as dropping and
resupplying spies. And of course captured aircraft were routinely
evaluated and used for training.

The problem was less significant if the original country was occupied; the
Luftwaffe did use some captured Dutch (Fokker W.VIII) and French
(Dewoitine D.520, Liore et Olivier LeO 451, Caudron C.270, Bloch MB.152)
aircraft. Some German-designed aircraft (Hs 129, Me 323) also used French
Gnome-Rhone radial engines.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 21:12:40 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: 50TH: A BRIEF LEAVE IN

Great post, John. I have been thoroughly enjoying your letters and it gives me
a slight feel for the war fought in Europe by U.S. troops. Having spent my war
in the Pacific and being primarily a Pacific War scholar, I find your letters
enlightening and interesting. By the way, did you get my post about the
articles for the IHT? Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 21:18:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: WEAP B-32

Brad Coon writes:

 >Steve New's informative post mentioned the B-32, always one of my
 >favorites.  He mentioned that 15 of them saw service.  Does anyone
 >on the list know in what theater they served and with what success?
 >Thanks in advance,

The history of the Consolidated Model 33 and 34 (B-32) Dominator goes back
to Nov 39 when the US Army Air Corps issued specification XC-218-A for a
very long range bomber superior to the B-17 and B-24.  ON 8 Apr 40,
preliminary design studies were submitted by Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas and
Consolidated and on 27 Jun 40, the USAAC Evaluation Board designated the
proposals as XB-29, XB-30, XB-31 and XB-32 respectively.  Both Lockheed and
Douglas subsequently withdrew from the competition.

The Consolidated Model 33 was similar to the B-24 with twin fins, larger
Davis-type wing, longer fuselage and rounded nose.  The powerplants were
four 2,200 hp Wright R-3350s, the aircraft was pressurized, had remote
controlled retractable gun turrets with fourteen 50 caliber (12.7 mm)
machine guns and an estimated 101,000 pound (45,814 kg) gross weight.  The
first contract for 2 XB-32-CO's, AC-15549, was signed on 6 Sep 40.  (The
first contract for the XB-29, AC-15429, was signed on the same day.)

The first XB-32-CO, AAF s/n 41-141, rolled off the assembly line six months
behind schedule and made it's first flight on 7 Sep 42.  Because of
problems with the pressurization system, the gun turrets and landing gear
doors, these items were omitted on the prototype.  This aircraft had
R-3350-13 engines inboard and R-3350-21s outboard driving three-bladed
props.  The aircraft also had problems with engine oil leaks and poor
cooling and this had delayed it further.  (The first XB-29 flight was on 29
Sep 42.)

On 17 Mar 43, contract AC-37856 was signed for 300 B-32-CFs.  On 10 May 43,
the first XB-32 crashed on takeoff after making a total of 30 flights.  On
2 Jul 43, the second XB-32, s/n 41-142, finally flew; this aircraft had a
stepped cockpit canopy but the AAF soon reported that this aircraft was
obsolete and recommended a large number of changes.

The second XB-32 was equipped with eight 50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine
gunes in dorsal and ventral turrets, two 50 caliber and one 20 mm cannon in
each outboard engine nacelle firing rearwards and controlled  by aiming
stations in the aircraft plus two 50 caliber machine guns in the wings
outboard of the propellers.  The pressurization system problems were never
solved and this was abonded on production aircraft.  The remote controlled
gun turret problems were never solved and the armament on production
aircraft was changed to ten 50 caliber machine guns in nose, dorsal,
ventral and tail positions; the bomb load was increased by 4,000 pounds
(1,814 kg) to 20,000 pounds (9,072 kg).

The second XB-32 also had stability problems and in an attempt to resolve
this problem, a B-29 style tail was fitted after its 25th flight but this
did not resolve the problem and a Consolidated-designed 19.5 foot (5.9 m)
vertical tail was added and first flown on the third XB-32, s/n 41-18336
on  3 Nov 43.  The first production aircraft was fitted with the B-29
vertical tail initally before a new tail was substitued.

By 1944, the AAF had placed orders for over 1,500 B-32s.  The first
production aircraft was delivered on 19 Sep 44 by which time the B-29 was
already in combat in India.  The first aircraft crashed on the same day it
was delivered when the nosewheel collapsed on landing.  By Dec 44, only five
B-32s had been delivered and by this time, the B-29s were flying combat
over Japan from the Mariana Islands.  Starting on 27 Jan 45, 40 B-32A-5,
-10 and -15 aircraft were delivered as unarmed TB-32-CF crew trainers.


The problem for the AAF now was that they had a very heavy bomber (the
B-29) in combat and what were they to do with the B-32?  Everyone wanted
B-29s but nobody wanted the B-32.  In Mar 45, General George Kenney,
Commanding General Far East Air Forces, was in Washington and he suggested
that since he could not get B-29s, he would take the B-32 and test them in
combat.  The plan was to convert the 312th Bombardment Group (Light), a
Douglas A-20 Havoc outfit, to B-32s.  Special crews took three B-32s to
Clark Field, Luzon, Philippine Islands in mid-May 45, and after a month of
minor shakedown flights, the test period was completed on 17 Jun; the test
crews were impressed with its unique reversible-pitch inboard propellers
and the Davis wing which gave it excellent landing performance.  However,
they found the codkpit had an extremely high noise level, poor instrument
layout, the bombardier's vision was poor, it was overweight and the nacelle
design resulted in frequent engine fires.

Two of the three B-32s flew their first mission on 29 May 45, a ground
support mission.  Six more aircraft arrived and they were all assigned to
the 386th Bombardment Squadron (Light) at Floridablanca, Luzon Island.
Other missions flown by the 386th from Luzon were:

  15 Jun 44: Two dropped sixteen 2,000 pound (907 kg) bombs on a sugar mill
at Taito, Formosa.
  22 Jun 44: One of two B-32s bomb an alcohol plant at Heito, Formsoa with
500 pounders (227 kg) but the  second one misses flak positions with
260-pound (118 kg) frag bombs.

All told, the B-32s flew 16 sorties from Luzon.

On 13 Aug 45, the 386th moved from Luzon to Yontan airstrip on Okinawa and
flew mostly photographic reconnaissance missions.  The last mission was
flown on 28 Aug 45 with the loss of 2 aircraft; one crashed on take-off and
another was abandoned after "technical" problems.  After VJ-Day, all B-32s
were returned to the US.

A total of 117 B-32s were delivered, i.e.:

  3 XB-32-CO
 10 B-32-1-CF
  4 B-32-5-CF
 20 B-32-20-CF
  1 B-32-21-CF
 25 B-32-25-CF
  7 B-32-30-CF
  7 B-32-35-CF
 11 TB-32-5-CF
 25 TB-32-10-CF
  4 TB-32-15-CF

Orders for 1,099 B-32-CFs and 499 B-32-COs were cancelled after VJ-Day.

Many of these aircraft were delivered from the factory incomplete and were
flown directly to Davis-Monthan Field, Tucson, Arizona for storage.  By
1947, most had been scrapped; in Jun 47, Milton J. Reynolds, a pen
manufacturer announced his intention to purchase a B-32 and fly it around
the world over both Poles but nothing happened.  B-32-1-CF, s/n 42-108474,
was intended for display at the Air Force Museum but this was scrapped at
Davis-Monthan AFB in Aug 49.  The only remnant of a B-32 left is a static
test wing panel erected as a monument to aviation pioneer John J Montgomery
on a hill near San Diego, California.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Nov 1994 to 3 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 3 Nov 1994 to 4 Nov 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 21 messages totalling 651 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-NOV-1944 (2)
  2. [Gen] Copied Aircraft. (3)
  3. Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 1
  4. Marder (was Copied Aircraft)
  5. more on alpini (burp) (3)
  6. INF: 50 Year Ago Archives
  7. WEAP  M5A1 Stuart tank
  8. WEAP:Query: Zero name (3)
  9. <No subject given>
 10. WEAP:  P-38 CBI & Alaska
 11. WEAP: Zero Name
 12. WEAP: M5A1 Stewart
 13. HYPO: "The big what-if"
 14. HYPO"The big what"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 04:30:06 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-NOV-1944

On 05-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The II Corps (Canadian 1st Army) continues to advance
rapidly on Walcheren Island. The 5th Division (XII Corps, British 2nd
Army) clears the south bank of the Maas. In the VIII Corps sector, the 7th
Armoured Division approaches the area of Meijel from the south and the
15th Division from the north. The 3rd Algerian Division continues the
offensive against Gerardmer, taking Rochesson and Menaurupt. The other
Allied armies take up position to begin a new general offensive against
the Rhine.

Philippines (Leyte) - The 96th Division is still attacking the Japanese on
Bloody Ridge.

Luzon - Admiral J.S. McCain who has replaced Admiral Marc Mitscher in
command of TF 38, leads three task groups in attacks on targets on Luzon
and the surrounding waters. Among the carriers involved is the new
Ticonderoga. The Americans lose 25 planes and manage to destroy about 400
Japanese planes. The carrier Lexington is badly damaged by Kamikazes.

The Homefront
-------------
Pro Football - New York 31, Boston 0; Philadelphia 21, Brooklyn 7; Washington
14, Cleveland 10; Chicago Bears 21, Green Bay 0.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:57:30 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

>
>Funny thing about that B-29, it had suffered some battle damage and
>was repaired in theatre.  The Soviet copies all had the same repairs
>to the fuselage.  Talk about a family resemblance!!!
>

An intresting side story is that Soviets had a fit with trying to reverse
design the B-29 due to the fuesalge and wing skin.  It seems that their
aviation industries produced a large amount of skin metal in a slightly
thinner and a slightly thicker width.  When the tried using the thinner
width skin, the plan was too stressed for combat duties and when they
designed it with the thicker width the plane was too heavy and the
performance was substandard.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:23:40 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 1

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  03-Nov-1994 08:44am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 1


    [Thanks to many of you and your enjoyment of the stories from Cornelius
    Ryan's files for _A Bridge Too Far_.  Since I'm on a roll with this
    stuff, I thought I'd jump ahead of the 50th anniversary of VE-Day and
    post the stories we used last summer from _The Last Battle_.  (Timed to
    go up just before the 50th anniversary of D-Day and running through the
    middle of July, we put up an exhibit here at the Ohio University
    Archives which included untold stories from all three of Ryan's battle
    books.  There were also memorbelia items of his - like a piece of
    Hitler's urinal and Tojo's cigarette case - plus other materials from
    our collections related to WWII.)  There are a lot fewer stories from
    this book since we had a great deal less space to display them.
         For those of you unfamiliar with _TLB_: the book covers the last
    three weeks of the war in the ETO but looks intently at the battle for
    Berlin.  Done in the same fashion as the earlier _The Longest Day_ and
    the later _A Bridge Too Far_, _TLB_ not only relies upon documents and
    published materials but contacts with 690 Americans, British, French,
    Germans, and Russians.  Many of these personal stories did not make it
    into the book and some of them are related here.  Just as in the last
    installments, words in double quotations ("s) are the exact comments of
    the story-teller; words in single quotations ('s) are the exact words
    they are quoting from someone else; and words in brackets ([]s) are
    mine to help clarify.  Titles in all caps are those we used in the
    exhibit to categorize general subjects.
         (Just between you, me, and three or four continents I'm hoping to
    do an untold stories exhibit in say, Berlin, this spring.  Got any
    ideas on how I pull it off?)
         Anyway, here goes with stories from TLB.]

    THE MISERY

         "It is easier to survive a war than 12 years of folly."
                                                 - Jolenta Koch, Berlin

         "Dear Zeno,   How a person like you could belong to this [Nazi]
    party - could approve this regime, that is something I have never been
    able to understand.  How is it that a few people bring such misery upon
    a peoples?  Here there are more dead amony the civilian population than
    amony the soldiers - the soldiers admit this themselves.  If only the
    Russians finally were here so that the artillery shelling would stop.
    It's been going on for days now."
                                                 - Pia van Hoeven, Berlin

         "Smells form a considerable part of the memories of those chaotic
    days: of corpses floating around in the flooded underground train
    system; of seeing women, masked with gauze - exparty members, entrusted
    with the task of digging up the many dead buried all over the place -
    in public gardens, private plots, or just by the road-side.  There were
    many suicides amongst the civilians, and as there was no possibility of
    getting them buried, they were roughly interred in front gardens etc.
    by their relatives."
                                                 - Camilla Thiemann, Berlin

         "...former concentration camp inmates began to knock, asking for
    food and civilian clothes.  The Kerber's were helpful, outfitted only
    one man, though, told the others to try to get things at other homes.
    Frau Kinder next door took in three of the camp inmates because she
    felt they might help her and also protect her from the Russians.  It
    was so that these former political prisoners were in great favor with
    the Russians and were able later on to protect the entire neighborhood
    by their presence."
                                            - Margarete Hofmann, Berlin

         "There is continual fire, now with machine guns, too.  Finally the
    last three [German] men leave with their girl.  We sit in the cellar,
    venture upstairs only long enough to take care of personal needs.
    Meanwhile we dig out the last bottle of champaign and empty it,
    drinking to Germany's end!"
                                                 - Ingeborg Kolb, Berlin

         "At the time the British arrived at Belsen concentration camp
    there were 56,000 prisoners and 10,000 unburied corpses.  The death
    rate at the time of liberation was 500 per day with the highest daily
    total of 548.  By May 15 the death rate had fallen to 88.  The inmates
    had had no food or water for over five days.  At least 25,000 required
    urgent hospital care, 10,000 of these were almost sure to die.  Of the
    first 4,000 we hospitalized, 1,844 died after admission.  The total
    number of bodies buried after our arrival was 23,000."
                        - Brig. Gen. Glyn Hughes, MO, British 2nd Army


    Part two after these words from our sponsors.......

    Doug



Received:  04-Nov-1994 10:23am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:55:53 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marder (was Copied Aircraft)

On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Henry Herz wrote:

> The Germans mounted a Czech 76mm tank cannon into their Marder
> (I think) tank destroyer.

Close, but actually the Marder III, had A Russian 76mm anti-tank
gun mounted on the chasis of the (Czech) Pz Kw 38t.

Jon Stevens -- jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:54:22 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: more on alpini (burp)

        Just a short elaboration on alpini organization and armament.
Enlisted alpini were armed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano M38 short rifle
or M1891 long rifle (the latter, apart from its age, was probably the better
weapon).  Heavy support weapons in the alpini companies were the 8-mm Breda M37
tripod-mounted machinegun and the 45-mm Brixia mortar.  The tripod-mounted
Breda was more robust and reliable than the Fiat-Revelli generally used by the
bersaglieri, in fact the best Italian heavy machinegun of the war, although
hampered by its ridiculous feed system using 20-shot strips.  The 45-mm mortar
was both overly complicated and insufficiently lethal.  BTW, the Italian hand
grenades, known as the "ballila" to the troops and as "red devils" to the
British, also had the problem of poor killing radius-- one had to land it
almost on top of one's adversary to do more than stun the opponent, and
furthermore the impact fuzes often failed to detonate the grenade.  The German
stick type grenades, thousands of which were furnished to the Italians during
the war, were much preferred when available.  The excellent Beretta M38 and
M38/42 submachineguns (which were frequently seen in bersaglieri units, at
least in '42-'43) appear to have been rarely if ever employed by the alpini.
Company-level alpini officers, who should have been the first to receive the
Beretta tommyguns, sometimes carried the Mannlicher-Carcano TS carbine, and
always the 9-mm Beretta M34 pistol.  The latter, incidentally, were actually
used in combat on occasion.  I read (in Cervi) an account, taken from a letter
home, of a successful small-scale assault by alpini of the Tridentina's 5th
Alpini Regt to capture a couple of hills at Guri i Topit.  The writer, a
certain Lt Andolini, relates a close scrape wherein a Greek soldier thrust his
bayonet through the sleeve of Andolini's white camouflage jacket, hitting only
loose cloth, after which the alpino killed him with his pistol at such close
range that the Greek's blood spattered all over Andolini's white jacket.
(Andolini's platoon sergeant also had a close call in the same fight-- a rifle
bullet penetrated the front of his helmet, but only parted his hair before
passing out the back).
        Alpini battalions, being designed to operate independently as needed,
could reach over 1,260 men at full strength, with considerable heavy weapons
support.  Each three-battalion alpini regiment, in addition to over 100
machineguns (including 27 tripod-mounted), had 27 flamethrowers and a dozen
81-mm mortars (and 27 of the 45-mm) in its t/o.  Besides the three rifle
companies many alpini battalions contained a "scout platoon" which acted as a
sort of commando or ranger outfit specializing in the tough hit-and-run or
behind the enemy lines reconnaisance jobs, and these latter were naturally made
up of picked men.
        BTW, the alpini's strategic mission in the 20th Century had always been
first and foremost that of the defense of Italy's mountainous frontiers.  Their
motto translates as "Here they will not pass," and in WWI they performed
admirably their role of holding the mountain areas while most of the serious
fighting on the Italian front was conducted in the more level terrain of the
Carso on Italy's northeast border.  (I did see in the aforementioned TV
documentary an account of what could best be described as a kind of wartime
publicity stunt, wherein at the start of the fighting alpini set some kind of
record for biggest ordinance highest up by laboriously hoisting a 149-mm gun up
to the top of a 10,000-foot mountain overlooking Austrian lines).  Anyway,
you'll note from my previous post on this subject that whenever they were
employed in their main task of defensive fighting the alpini acquitted
themselves quite well in WW2 as well (e.g., the Alpini Corps in Russia, many of
the incidents described in the Greek campaign, and the defense of Plevlja in
Yugoslavia).
        Alas, I thought I was going to get through all this without having to
correct any errors, but again I found two small ones in my last post (hey, I
might shoot from the hip but at least I go back and check the stuff I'm not
sure of).  Both involve the Giulia Division in Russia:
        1. The Giulia Division's commander in the summer of '42 was General
U. Ricagno (I said "Bedogni;" actually, Col. Ugo Bedogni commanded the X
Raggruppamento Semovente in Sicily, another component of the Schreiber Group
mentioned in the bersaglieri post, and also the only unit to employ the very
effective Italian self-propelled 90-mm gun in combat, but that's another
story...)
        2. The Giulia Division departed for Russia in the summer of '42 with
4,000 mules, not 3,200.
        One last note, my figures for alpini organization and weapons come from
A. Mollo's "Armed Forces Of World War II."  Numbers of men and weapons seem to
vary with every t/o I read, even for the same units from the same period, so
people on the list might have read different figures from different sources.
At any rate, from what I've read the ideal t/o hardly ever matched the actual
unit strength in manpower and weaponry in any army of the period, so its kind
of all just a rough guide and/or "wish list" anyway (unless you're a war gamer
and need to standardize these things).
        Sorry if I got carried away and made my first post too long.  If I ever
get long-winded like that again I'll split it up into segments.  Hope I didn't
cause anybody any bandwidth hardship.   Now if anyone out there wants me to
tackle the Italian marines next, just say the word (its a much shorter subject,
there was only one regiment)...otherwise, I'll shut up for awhile until my
hands recover.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:19:45 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Year Ago Archives

I am thrilled to see Doug McCabe start a news series of "Untold Stories".
I wanted to mention to everyone that I am archiving all of his posts in
my "50 Year Ago" archives. I captured the entire ABTF series and will
now capture the new series. So if you want to keep copies of the series,
you can wait to the end and download from my archives one single file
with all the articles. I also have captured Joe's "Regia Marina" series
in its entirety as well as several other interesting postings. I'm not
trying to compete with Byrd with my archives. I could never do this, the
disk space cost would put me in the poor house ;). But I figure if I can
capture interesting articles or series of articles from both the mailing
list and the Usenet newsgroup, I can make them available to both sets of
readers. For those that don't know already the URL is
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:00:11 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on alpini (burp)

Mike,
        I for one would like to hear about the Italian Marines.  I grew
up believing the Italians were lousy fighters with worse equipment.  You
and others on the list, including our listowner, have gone a long way
towards educating me otherwise.  Hey, that'
s (oops) why I'm here, to learn.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:11:20 PST
From:    "Mark H. Walter" <mwalter@WORLD.NAD.NORTHROP.COM>
Subject: WEAP  M5A1 Stuart tank

I'm new to this group so I hope this post is in the right category.

I'm building a model of the M5A1 Stuart tank and need some info about the
interior equipment stowage.  For example, where was the thompson sub-
machinegun stowed, and how many rows of 37mm shells were in the sponson racks.
If anyone has the tech manuals or pictures please let me know how I can get
copies.  I will be happy to pay for any costs.

BTW  a earlier posting on captured equipment mentioned the German Marder
tank destroyer.  This was the Marder I.  It was based on a Czech 38t chassis
with a Russian 76.2mm field gun.  This was only a stop gap measure because
the regular German anti-tank guns of the time couldn't deal with the Russian
KV-I and T34 tanks.  The MarderIII also on the Czech 38t chassis mounted a
German 75mm gun.

                             Thanks
                             Mark Walter  mwalter@world.nad.northrop.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:17:48 EST
From:    Dee Shneiderman <DSHNEIDERMAN@PEMBVAX1.PEMBROKE.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:Query: Zero name

Hi, I'm new to this list so this question has probably been asked before, but
who and why was that Mitsubishi airplane called a "Zero?

Dee Shneiderman
Reference/ Bibliographic Instruction Librarian
Pembroke State University
Pembroke NC 28372
dshneiderman@pembvax1.pembroke.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:20:33 EST
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:Query: Zero name

Mitsubishi Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter. (Type "Zero")
Allied code name "Zeke."
Source:  Japanese Aircraft Code Names & Designations
by Robert C. Mikesh.  (I believe Bob's Japanese work.)
Hope this helps.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:34:23 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on alpini (burp)

Mike,

Thank you for your post. Like many in my generation, I had the beleif that
the Italians didn't do much during WWII unless forced to. You have managed
to correct my misbeleif. I'll tell me fatherinlaw about this, He's Italian,
and might appreciate it.

Thanx again.                                                    Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 16:41:07 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

     Hello everyone!
          I am working on a paper about Andree de Jongh, the Belgian
    woman who organized the "Comet Line," an underground escape route
    which was created to transfer British airmen and Allied POWs across
    France. So far, I have been forced to rely on materials from France
    which has taken a great deal of time to receive and have translated.
    Does anyone know anything about de Jongh or the "Comet Line?" It
    would be wonderful if I could find a firsthand account of someone
    who escaped through the Comet Line, but I realize I may be asking
    for information too difficult to find. I appreciate any comments
    on this topic.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 22:01:24 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  P-38 CBI & Alaska

"Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL> writes:

> and received some P-38s, using a mixture of Lightnings and Warhawks
> until  reequipped with Mustangs in 1945. The assigned role of
> tactical missions prevented it from rolling up a score of kills.

By the way I am always struck when seeing fighter unit histories that none
ever claims fewer kills than losses. It often seems that all fighter units
had outstanding scores.
Naturally this can't be true, so I am wondering as to the reasons.
Is it because pilots tend to overclaim kills ? Is it pure propaganda ?
Or is it a natural phenomenon, as fighter units shoot bombers and therefore
improve their "ratio" ? Or is there a lousy definition of "kills" ?
Any opinion on this phenomenon ?


Arnaud (doubter forever).

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 22:14:38 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

"William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL> writes:

> Funny thing about that B-29, it had suffered some battle damage and
> was repaired in theatre.  The Soviet copies all had the same repairs
> to the fuselage.  Talk about a family resemblance!!!

Viktor Suvorov (or whoever he is) corroborates something similar in "The
liberators".

He tells how Stalin ordered the B-29's crew to be interned just in time
for the bomber to be mirror-copied. But the soviet engineers found a little
hole in a wing and not in the other. So all the produced soviet copied
bombers (are they T-4 bombers ?) had a small hole in the wing.
The engineers then wondered if they had to copy the American markings too
and asked Beria. An annoyed Beria came up to Stalin and put it as a joke.
The tale says that from Stalin's laughter Beria understood the answer.

(from memory)
Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 18:36:41 EST
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Gen] Copied Aircraft.

Soviet copies of B-29s are:
Tu-4  (NATO/OTAN code name "Bull") &
Tu-70 (transport version, Airliner interior, but the resembelance
aside from the stepped canopy rather than "bullet nose" of the B-29
is remarkable, esp the wing)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 18:56:45 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-NOV-1944

Why the change in command? Were there any admonishments? How did this
affect the careers of them both? -Al

>Luzon - Admiral J.S. McCain who has replaced Admiral Marc Mitscher in
>command of TF 38, leads three task groups in attacks on targets on Luzon
>and the surrounding waters.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 19:26:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: Zero Name

    The Mitsubishi A6M2 was accepted for service in June 1940.  The Type 0
    name was based on the last digit of the year of acceptance.  A practice
    that the Japanese must have been forced to give up quickly, since
    wartime development would certainly have caused multiple aircraft to be
    accepted in the same year.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 19:36:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: M5A1 Stewart

    One excellent, and relatively inexpensive, source for detail is the
    Squadron/Signal STUART U.S. Light Tanks in Action.

    The Squadron/Signal line is carried in both hobby shops and bookstores,
    and can also be mail ordered from Squadron

    1115 Crowley Drive
    Carrollton, TX 75011-5010
    (214) 242-8663

    Sorry, it doesn't show the tommy gun stowage.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Nov 1994 19:53:43 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Query: Zero name

Dear Dee,

Japanese aircraft carried a designator based on the year of entry into
service, using a calendar beginning with the traditional date of the
founding of the Japan Empire by the first emperor, Jimmu (660 BC). Thus,
1940, the year the Zero entered service, was 2600 of the Empire, and
any aircraft that came into squadron service that year would be
the Type 00 fighter, bomber, trainer, etc. This came through in the
west as "the Zero," which replaced, for example, the Type 96 carrier-
based fighter, which was introduced in 2396 (1936 AD).

If I can anticipate the next question, if two planes of the same type
entered service the same year, how did they tell them apart? Both the
Army and the Navy had separate identification systems independent of
the year system. The Army numbered all its aircraft sequentially in
a Ki- series which reached about Ki-102, I believe. All types, regardless
of purpose, were numbered in order. The Navy used a system of type-
sequence within type by manufacturer-manufacturer. This sounds
complicated, but it is the same scheme the US Navy used until the
designations were unified in the 1970s. Here, the Type 00 Carrier-
based Fighter (a formal designation) was the A6M; the sixth navy
fighter design (A) accepted by the Imperial Navy from Mitsubishi (M).
Subtypes would be the A6M-1, -2, etc. Among the codes used here,
in addition to A, were B for torpedo bomber, C for carrier based
scout, D for dive bomber, E for flying boats and float planes,
and G for multiengine bombers. Manufacturers codes are too many to
list, but among the common ones in addition to Mitsubishi/M were
Nakajima/N, Kawanishi/K, and Aichi/A.

The separate army and navy systems were, I believe, unknown to western
intelligence when war broke out, so to prevent the confusion of multiple
"Type OO"s, a code name ID system was set up. Thus the A6M-1 became the
Zeke to Allied intell and pilots, and the Hamp in its clipped wing
A6M-3 version. Colloquially, "Zero" was used interchangeably for the            A6M and for any single seat Japanese monoplane, but at least at
first, I don't think it was officially sanctioned.

This was probably more than you wanted to know, but it's pretty much
the whole story.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 01:11:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: HYPO: "The big what-if"

On 10/26 Henry Sirotin wrote

  > German nuclear development seems to have stalled out at an early stage.
  > If it was because they couldn't do it, I'm not sure their egos would
  > have admitted anyone else could. If it was to keep the Nazis from
  > getting a bomb, as some have suggested (not too convincingly, from the
  > three books I've read on it- haven't seen the Cassidy? Heisenberg bio
  > yet), it raises an entirely different and potentially fascinating
  > scenario: German scientists and German military working to overthrow the
  > Nazis and do a deal with the Americans before the US can use the weapon
  > they now have and Germany doesn't.

Thomas Powers's =Heisenberg's War= is a fascinating read about the German
nuclear program.  The key theme is that Werner Heisenberg miscalculated the
efficiency of neutrons in a fission bomb.  He reckoned that an atomic bomb
would require a very large amount of uranium 235 (40 to 400 kilos, as I
recall) which was far beyond Germany's capability to produce.  Heisenberg
did not grasp the possibilities of plutonium.  His stature was such that his
estimate was not seriously disputed by scientists or the military or Speer.
The author hints that since Heisenberg was not a Nazi he was, at some level
of consciousness, knowingly deflecting the German program, which then became
largely a research study of nuclear reactors for power.  However, I thought
he made an even more plausible case that Heisenberg just goofed on the
calculations. Postwar eavesdropping on the German scientists revealed them
as quite amazed at the American achievement.  As to Heisenberg's motives, we
are left with the ultimate uncertainty principle.
  A re-reading of Richard Rhodes's =The Making of the Atomic Bomb= shows
that American and emigre scientists made some similarly pessimistic
estimates early in the US program.  However, in this country, no scientist
had the dominant stature of Heisenberg.  The correct estimates soon appeared
and the Manhattan project got rolling about the time the Germans gave up.

Ed Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 01:10:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: HYPO"The big what"

  There is an article by John P. Campbell entitled "A British Plan to Invade
 England, 1941" in the October 1994 issue of =The Journal of Military
History=.  It seems that during 1941 and early 1942 senior British staff
planners created several scenarios of a German invasion.  The planning
hypothesis was that Hitler would make a bold stab at ending the war quickly
and would accept huge casualties.
  The planners assumed that, in comparison to the fairly ad-hoc Sea Lion
plan of 1940, the Germans would be far better prepared.  And because British
troops had been rearmed, the invasion would be mounted by a larger force.
Some versions envisioned a pincer operation, with landings in Kent and East
Anglia converging on London.  Some envisaged ludicrously large landing
forces: 220,000 troops and 750 tanks on D1 (compare D-Day: 156,000 including
3 airborne divisions; and Sea Lion 67,000).
  These scenarios became a bone of contention between military leaders who
 wanted to keep the British Army at home because loss of the British Isles,
 however unlikely, meant losing the war; and those who wanted to send the new
 armored divisions to Egypt.  Churchill sided with the latter group.  He felt
 after the Battle of Britain air victory in 1940 that invasion was not
credible, and that the army had to fight Germans somewhere to keep up its
morale.  Also, intelligence would be sure to spot such a massive buildup
well in advance and Bomber Command would attack it.
  Apparently the planning exercises ended in April 1942.

Edward S. Miller    Stamford, CT   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Nov 1994 to 4 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Status: OR

There are 13 messages totalling 509 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 11-05-94
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-NOV-1944
  3. WEAP: P38  CBI & Other (2)
  4. WEAP: Zero (2)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-NOV-1944
  6. MORE ON ALPINI (BURP)
  7. INF: 50 YEARS AGO
  8. GEN: Pearl Harbor
  9. [MEDIA] SeaWings Fri Nov 4, 94.
 10. COLLECTING STUFF: PATCHES + PINS
 11. WEAP : Zero

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 04:00:13 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-05-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/05 Sun. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. J.
           S. McCain) commence 2-day attack against Japanese
           shipping and air installations on Luzon, P. I.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             PT-320, by horizontal bomber, Leyte area, P. I.,
              11 d. 11'N.. 125 d. 05'E.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             carrier LEXINGTON (CV-16), by suicide plane, off
              Luzon, P, I.,
              16 d. 20  N., 123 d. 59'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Heavy cruiser NACHI, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Manila Bay, P. I. Seaplane tender NOTORO, by Army
              aircraft, off Singapore,
              01 d. 18'N., 103 d.  52'E.
             Patrol boat NO. 107, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Manila Bay, P. I.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 04:31:55 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-NOV-1944

On 06-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The II Corps of the Canadian 1st Army captures Middelburg, the
most important town on Walcheren Island, in a surprise attack. In the British
I Corps sector, the Polish 1st Armoured Division begins an offensive against
Moerdijk.

Yugoslavia - Tito's forces enter Monastir. They now control almost the entire
Greece-Yugoslavia border.

Italian Front - The 8th Indian Division captures Monte Monsignano. In the
eastern sector, the Polish II Corps captures Monte Chiodo and Monte Pratello
with the 3rd Division.

Philippines (Leyte) - The X Corps is ordered to advance with the goal of
capturing Ormoc. In the XXIV Corps sector, the 382nd Infantry Regiment, 96th
Division captures Bloody Ridge.

Burma - Troops of the Chinese 22nd Division crosses the Irrawaddy and
overcomes Japanese resistance at Shwegugale.

China - Kunming, capital of the Yunnan province, is captured by the Japanese.

The Homefront
-------------
Final Election Appeals - President Roosevelt, in a final radio appeal from
Hyde Park, N.Y. asks for all citizens to vote tommorrow in a practical
demonstration to the world of American democracy.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 11:12:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: P38  CBI & Other

     Arnaud,

        When discussing all of those positive kill ratios that the Army Air
     Force squadrons published, you've got to keep four things in mind:

        1.  The intelligence units that approved the Kill V/S Probable V/S
     Damaged claims were generally pretty skeptical guys and a pilot had to
     have some evidence to back up his claim (gun camera, other witnesses
     etc.) before the kill was granted.

        2.  In order to reduce the level of Luftwaffe fighter resistance
     against our bombers, the AAF changed the rules defining a kill, and
     allowed pilots to claim kills for aircraft destroyed on the ground.
     Eventually this was changed back (Luftwaffe bases seemingly being
     heavily defended by AAA) but the claims already granted remained on
     the records.

        3.  The AAF overall did have a positive win/loss ratio against all
     adversaries in WWII.  It's possible that the good luck was spread out
     fairly evenly.

        4.  There was a war on, and you certainly don't want the folks back
     home to think your losing, do you?  I don't have the name at the tip
     of my tongue, but didn't an AAF B-17 pilot get a posthumous CMH for
     sinking a Japanese "Battleship" off the Phillipines in 1941 when in
     fact he had attacked an American submarine which simply dove to escape
     the bombs?  Every army has got to have some heros, even if they make
     them up themselves.

     Please Note:  This is not meant as an attack on the honesty or courage
     of our pilots in WWII.  The statements in 1-3 above are accurate, our
     fliers fought bravely, and did outfight their oponents.  On the other
     hand, POLITICS has always played a hand in how war news is reported to
     the public back home.


     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 11:36:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: Zero

     One anectdote concerning the Zero name that I have seen in several
     sources, but obviously can't confirm:

     The original Army Air Force code name for the Zero was to be "Hap",
     but it appears that General Arnold was not amused, hence the name was
     changed to "Zeke".

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:17:35 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Zero

Steve, the code name for the A6M3, snub winged Zero was Hamp, is this any
cooincidence?

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:40:40 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-NOV-1944

>From:         Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-NOV-1944
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>
>Why the change in command? Were there any admonishments? How did this
>affect the careers of them both? -Al
>
>>Luzon - Admiral J.S. McCain who has replaced Admiral Marc Mitscher in
>>command of TF 38, leads three task groups in attacks on targets on Luzon
>>and the surrounding waters.
>


Task Force 58 had been at sea for 10 months.  During Sep-Oct it had
flown 17,285 combat sorties.  Mitscher was overdue for a relief.  It
obviously had no affect on Mitscher's career.  McCain would later be
involved in the typhoon and would be relieved of command and die shortly
after the surrender ceremonies.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:13:17 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P38  CBI & Other

>From:         "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
>Subject:      WEAP: P38  CBI & Other

[deleted]

>
>        4.  There was a war on, and you certainly don't want the folks back
>     home to think your losing, do you?  I don't have the name at the tip
>     of my tongue, but didn't an AAF B-17 pilot get a posthumous CMH for
>     sinking a Japanese "Battleship" off the Phillipines in 1941 when in
>     fact he had attacked an American submarine which simply dove to escape
>     the bombs?  Every army has got to have some heros, even if they make
>     them up themselves.
>

Sounds like Colin Kelly.  He was credited with sinking BB Haruna.  At
Midway, the B17's were initially given credit when in fact not a single
one of their bombs caused any damage.  Larry Jewel posted a newspaper
account of this some time ago.  Airmen were not alone in this.  Surface
ships and subs often claimed more ships sunk than they actually sank.
Read _They Were Expandable_ for instance.  You would not have thought
the Japanese had a surface navy left after that.

>     Please Note:  This is not meant as an attack on the honesty or courage
>     of our pilots in WWII.  The statements in 1-3 above are accurate, our
>     fliers fought bravely, and did outfight their oponents.  On the other
>     hand, POLITICS has always played a hand in how war news is reported to
>     the public back home.
>

Or how about human nature?  Given the confusion, excitement, fear, and
the very real desire to want to see that you sank a ship or shot down a
plane, it seems very resonable to me that honest mistakes were made.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:00:36 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: MORE ON ALPINI (BURP)

Good posts, Mike. I would like to learn about the Italian Marines. When we, the
1st Marine Division, went to China after Okinawa, my outfit was billetted in
the Caserna Ermano Carlotto, which I understood to be an Italian Marine outfit.
Can you confirm? Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:11:10 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 YEARS AGO

This change of command had nothing to do with the quality of leadership. It was
just that Mitscher needed some rest, I am certain. It was the same thing with
Spruance and Halsey. When Halsy held the command, it was the Third Fleet; when
Spruance had it, it was the Fifth Fleet. I think Morison commented on this by
saying that the drivers just changed; the horses and carriage remained the
same. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 15:35:51 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Pearl Harbor

John Ausland asked me to tell more about my father's experiences at Pearl
Harbor.  I'll copy from a story he wrote on Dec. 15, 1941, a week later.

Under the authorship of a professor at the University of Hawaii ther came
from the presses last summer a sereies of articles, in book form, about
the Islands.  The edition was called "Paradise Limited."  After the
Japanese aircraft had raided Pearl Harbor on the morning of December 7 I
stood atop the navy yard signal tower, first gazing upward at the
fascinating over-lapping hues of inland, mountainous Oahu; then I lowered
my eyes to the destruction and death of Pearl Harbor.  Immediately I was
filled with understanding of a book title.

When the last bomb had burst, when our own anti-aircraft fire had ceased
whizzing past the signal tower, I looked out over the harbor at the huge
flames; I felt the thick, oily smoke blackening my face as the island
winds blew it past the tower.  The thought came to me that I must have
been killed and gone straight to hell.

For the thousands who were there and survived, Pearl Harbor will always
be "just yesterday." On the morning of Dec. 7 I had just come on the day
watch at the signal tower and around 7:55 am my teletype machine was
silent.  From the signal bridge outside the shack I heard a signalman
yell, "Air raid! Air raid!"  In a split second I moved out of the shack
onto the bridge for an unobstructed view.  There was an explosion, I saw
an enemy aircraft zooming upward from the hanger on Ford Island, leaving
the hanger damaged and in flames.  Another plane was diving and releasing
a bomb upon the same target.  On the fuselage of the planes was a red
dot, on the wings was an insigna of the  Rising Sun.

I remember distinctly my first thought was, "So this is it. "  Through my
mind ran instantly newsreels I had seen, eye witness stories of
blitzkrieg warfare, countless articles I had read of war torn London,
such reading having taken place while I was propped up with several
pillows in my  own comfortable bed.  I thought of Leland Stow's book, "No
Other Road to Freedom," and as I watched those first bombs fall and
explode I remarked inwardly, "Yes Stowe, now I know what you mean."

Japanese aircraft made a dramatic entrance over Pearl Harbor.  They came
in over Diamond Head, down out of the rising sun in their attempt to turn
a peacefful Sunday into the darkness of a Monday morning.  At the exact
mooment the first bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor colors were being
made.  While bombs were exploding the American flag went up and I find
consolation in observing that flag is still flying.

On the signal tower the supervisor grabbed the telephone and reported to
the OD in the yard office.  "Pearl is being bombed by enemy aircraft."
>From the bridge I looked toward the east and noted more planes coming in
over Pearl.  The first few aircraft were dive bombers but suddenly
torpedo planes zoomed in, flying no more than twenty-five feet above the
water. I saw the first torpedo launched, I watched it speed to it's
target.  Some fifteen men stood on the bridge of the signal tower, a 160
feet in the air, helpless, unable to do anything except to watch their
own pals die.

With strong firey words one signalman attempted to fight back.  He still
claims fear did not even approach him and I believe he is stating a
truth.  In lound tones he called the Japs everything possible except
gentlemen and then he screamed, "What's going on here?  My god where are
our planes?  Oh______, give me a gun."

Dive bombers and torpedo planes became more numerous.  During the first
two minutes they created a sickening spectacle but none of us on the
tower expected to feel sick more than a few minutes longer.  Not one
around me lost his head, communications went through if possible, but it
was obvious that a bomb would certainly get the tower.

To the men of the United States navy under fire I shall always bow with
respect.  The attack came so suddenly that many of them ran past their
own dead to get to battle stations.  At gun stations they fouoght with
lifeless bodies, torn and ripped, lying at their feet.  In two  minutes
after the raid began our anti-aircraft batteries went into action.  I saw
a Jap plane shot down in flames.  In the newsreel it would have been a
thriller but on this ocassion it gave me no emotional effect.  Another
plane was hit and the fuselage left the wings fluttering in the air.  I
saw a toorpedo plane shot down just before it released it's deadly charge.

To say that I was utterly fearless would be untrue.  In naval warfare it
is a fact that so long as you are returning the enemy's fire you do not
thnk of ffear but from the tower we had nothing to return.  I was
conscious of history being made and I remember saying during the attack,
"Well fellows, you're seeing history."  My eyes darted here and there.  I
moved from one side of the tower to the other but always I had to rush to
my teletype machine.  Every few seconds another station on the circuit
would ask, "Are you there?"  It made me superstituous and I hesitated to
answer and when I did I wrote, "Yes but."  I lighted one cigarette from
the other until my pack was empty.  I asked a signalman if he could spare
a few.  He said, "Here, I may not live to burn these anyhow."

Members of the signal gang who had been off watch left the barracks a
mile away and came up on the tower.  God know, I don't know why they did
it except that where there's flame the fire horse will head there.  Soon
it was discovered that too many men were on the tower.  The CPO ordered
certain men to go below just in case the tower was hit.  One signalman
who had been ordered below turned around and exclaimed, "But you might
need me.  No I won't go below."  He didn't.

In the army's Hickam Field I saw dive bombers come in low and get one of
the hangers.  They straffed planes con the gound, setting them afire.  On
the bridge of the tower a kid of seventeen walked around bewildered.  It
was pitiful when he shook his head and sadly questioned, "I just don't
get it.  Why do they want to bomb our own ships?  It's a drill ain't it?"

The first attaack lasted for about ten or twelve minutes, followed by a
lull of half an hour.  For the second attack our anti-aircraft fire was
much heavier and the invader did not tarry as long as the first time.
During the second attack the high level bombers came over along with the
fighter planes.  Our guns this time were going full force and the air
looked as if it had caught chicken pox.  It was worse than a convention
of studio sound men.  The enemy was trying for ships only a few hundred
yards from the signal tower, our own anti-aircraft fire was passing bby
so close you could almost reach out and touch it.  One ship put a five
inch shell through the power house smoke stack, the top of which iss on a
level with the tower and only two hundred yards away.  A piece of
shrapnel ripped off a two inch board on the top side of the tower.

Ships were calling us by light but the thick, black smoke interferred
with communications.  The supervisor handed me a message to go over the
mux (teletype).  "Get it out if you can.  It's priority."  I began
sending it out, working calmly in spite of the thunder and hell breaking
loose outside.  It was much easier to sit and operate the teletype than
it was to stand outside and watch those bombs coming down, listening to
the bullets whizzing past the tower.

At certain moments wome one would locate a Japanese fighter plane, flying
low, heading right over the tower.  When a man spied it he yelled, "Look
out fellows, here it comes."  All hands fastened their eyes on the plane,
expecting it to be the one, until it had passed over .  Whether a bomb
got the tower or not we were certain the enemy would strafe it.  We had
already seen them machine gun the housing area and strafe men in the water.

The aged battleship Arizona became an inferno and during the second
attack she blew up, a terrifying sight.  Her bow came out of the water,
huge flames spread out, upward for a hundred feet, then she sank.

A man alongside the dock was playing a stream of water on a ship badly
ablaze.  The vessel's magazines exploded and the man tried to hobble away
on one leg.  I saw a bomb explode on one ship and men go fifteen feet in
the air.

One of the unexplainable incidents was the seaman who justs prior to the
attack had gone done in the paint locker of a battleship, leaving the
hatch open.  The paint locker is at least thirty feet below the main
deck.  An explosion buckled the bow of the  ship and this seaman was
blown up through the small open hatch, landed on the main deck and wok up
not  knowing what had happened.  Except for bruises he was unharmed.

Some men perishied in oil fires on the water after either being blown off
the ship or ordereed abandon the vessel.  One CPO was blown into the
water and climbed aboard again.  A second time he was blown off the ship
only to repeat his performance again by way of the anchor bitch.  A Jap
machine gun finally killed him.

Under the fire that Pearl Harbor knew on the morning of December 7 those
men there literally becam brothers.  I saw it, I felt it, all hands did.
I don't think there is a word in any language to describe what I mean.
It's something that can only be felt, and no other emotion in the world
can be felt quite as strongly.  It is the reaaction that occurrs when all
men present are struck with the realization that they all were emitted
from the womb of Mother Destiny and that all are united in a common cause.
******

written by Val Adams, Jr. RM3c, December 15, 1941, Pearl Harbor.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 19:39:25 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: [MEDIA] SeaWings Fri Nov 4, 94.

Any of you see SeaWings Friday Night?

This show was Kats over Korea.  Sorry I am straying from WWII but
it did have a lot of the WWII aircraft still flying.

Anyway, it refered to how the B-29s were used during the Korean war.

One part of the show I can't quit thinkiing about.  Apparently there was a
North Korean soldier peddling along on his bicycle and this B-29 that had a
bomb or two to spare followed this poor guy and stayed with him until the
bombs caught up to him.

I can't remember if it said the guy was killed by this attack but if not
I wonder what he has told his grandchildren about the war.  The USA had so
many bombs and planes that they sent them out to hunt for individual soldiers.

I wonder how fast you can peddle with a B-29 dropping bombs behind you?

8^O.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 20:58:20 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: COLLECTING STUFF: PATCHES + PINS

    I am interested in obtaining either replicas or original things (patches,
pins, ribbons, etc.) relating to the Abwehr and/or the SD.  As I am a poor
college student, replicas are probably better as they are probably cheeper.
Still, I'll take what I can get.  Anyone know anything or have anything?
TIA

William Lippert
WL1958A@American.edu
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Nov 1994 22:00:32 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: WEAP : Zero

 To:  Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)


 Steven L. New stated: at Sat, 5 Nov 1994 11:36:09 EDT
 > The Zero name that I have seen in several sources, but obviously can't
 > confirm . . . The original Army Air Force code name for the Zero was
 > to be "Hap."
 _Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War_, by Rene' J. Francillon, page 567,
 indicates : Hamp Mitsubishi A6M3, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter Model 32
 ( this aircraft was first coded HAP, then HAMP, and finally ZEKE 32).


 Carl Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Nov 1994 to 5 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 5 Nov 1994 to 6 Nov 1994
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Status: O

There are 18 messages totalling 1046 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 11-06-94
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-NOV-1944
  3. Queen Mary
  4. [INF] USAAF 5 NOV 44
  5. [INF] USAAF 6 NOV 44
  6. [INF] USAAF 7 NOV 44
  7. WEAP: Zeke/Zero
  8. GEN: PEARL HARBOR (2)
  9. NOST: Band Performance (3)
 10. WEAP:Query: Zero name
 11. New .gifs at byrd.
 12. ARC: Accessing byrd.
 13. HYPO: "The big what-if"
 14. WEAP: P38  CBI & Other
 15. NOST: BAND PERFORMANCE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/06 Mon. Submarine GURNARD (SS-254) lays mines off western
           Borneo.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 05:52:56 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-NOV-1944

On 07-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - German resistance continues at Moerdijk. In the US 1st
Army sector, the 28th Division (V Corps) is withdrawn from the bridgehead
over the river Kall after a series of fierce German counter-attacks.
Patton decides to launch the offensive on the Rhine on 8 November in spite
of the heavy rain which for the moment prevents any air support.

Italian Front - In the 8th Army sector, the V Corps attacks Forli.

Philippines (Leyte) - The X Corps begins to advance on Ormoc from the north.
In the US XXIV Corps sector, the 382nd Infantry completes the capture of
Bloody Ridge.

Burma - The Chinese 22nd Division captures Shwegu.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt Re-elected To Fourth Term - President Roosevelt is re-elected to
an unprecedented fourth term. He beats Dewey by winning 36 states with 53
percent of the vote.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 10:27:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Queen Mary

The following letter from Mr. Charles L. Baldwin of Hillsdale, New York,
appreared in the Letters On Travel section of the Sunday, November 6, 1994
issue of the NEW YORK TIMES.  Obviously, there was an article about the
Queen Mary in the October 2d issue of the TIMES but I never saw it.

"To the Editor:  When the Queen Mary was a troop carrier during World War
II she had an experience that could have changed J.M. Fenster's stroy about
her ('An Ocean Liner Berthed and Burnished,' Oct. 2) or indeed made it
unwritable.

"On one of her crossings in 1944, the Mary, as she was affectionately
known, was ferrying a full complement of United States Army Air Forces
personnel, mostly pilots, to their duties in England.  As she near the end
of her trip, sailing north through the Bay of Biscay in sparkling weather,
lookouts aboard spotted a Nazi reconnaissance plane that in turn had seen
and marked the ship as the incredibly valuable target she would be.  In
those days, the Mary sailed by herself; she was too fast to travel in
convoy.  There were no warships to protect her and not enough time for
fighter pilots from Britain to reach her before enemy bombers struck; they
would be too much for the Mary's own antiaircraft to handle.

"The ship's officers could figure how long it would take for the Germans to
arrive from their bases in France.  The Mary's men had 12 minutes before
the expected attack.  All hands, troops and crews alike, were ordered to
don life jackets and the ship's boats were made ready for lowering,
antiaircraft guns ready for firing.

"Time moved too fast, the breathing space slipped quickly down to five
minutes, four, three and then:  Yes, from a day of gin-clear bombing
weather, the Mary slid gracefully into an unexpected fog bank, the almost
impenetrable kind, which held her safe virtually all the way to her
destination.  They called it 'the luck of the Mary.'"

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 10:39:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 4 B-25s abort an offensive sweep off Suribachi
on Paramushiru Island due to intense shore fire; 4 more B-25s fly armed
reconnaissance over Shimushu Island and at decklevel bomb Torishima Island
targets; of 4 fighters intercepting the B-25s, 1 is downed; 4 B-24s bomb
Onnekotan and Matsuwa Islands; 3 more B-24s bomb Katalka naval base on
Shimushu Island, starting fires; 7 fighters intercept and the B-24s down 1.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 49 P-40s, P-38s, and P-51s
attack storage facilities and other targets of opportunity around Wanling,
Burma and Mangshih, Chefang, and Kweihsien; the 22d Bombardment Squadron
(Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium), based at Yangkai, sends a
detachment to operate from Yunnani with B-25s; the 426th Night Fighter
Squadron, Fourteenth AF, moves from Madhaiganj, India to Chengtu with P-61s
(detachment begin operating from Kunming during the month).

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, about 70 P-47s attack
Lashio Airfield, hit gun positions on Kyundaw Island, bomb the Kanbalu
marshalling yard, hit targets of opportunity along the Naba-Wuntho railroad
and on the Burma Road and bomb the town of Namhpakka and the Lasai area; 28
other P-47s maintain patrols S of Myitkyina; transports fly 300+ sorties
carrying men, equipment and supplies to various forward areas.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 53 Calcutta, India-based B-29s
bomb the Singapore naval base in Malaya putting the King George VI Graving
Dock (one of the world's best drydocks) out of operation for 3 months, and
blast other targets at the base; 7 other B-29s bomb the secondary target and
Pangkalanbrandan refinery on Sumatra while 4 more hit other target.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 442d Troop
Carrier Group moves from Bonnetable to St-Andre-de-L'Eure; the 91st Troop
Carrier Squadron, 439th Troop Carrier Group, moves from Lonray to
Chateaudun with C-47s; the 98th Troop Carrier Squadron, 440th Troop Carrier
Group, moves from Le Mans to Orleans with C-47s; the 303d Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Peray to St-Andre-de-L'Eure
with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 702: 1,272 bombers and 666 fighters in 3 forces attack marshalling
yards in W Germany; H2X radar is used by all forces; 12 bombers and 6
fighters are lost.
  1. 452 B-17s are dispatched to the marshalling yard at Frankfurt (396);
36 hit the marshalling yard at Hanau and 4 hit other targets; 1 B-17s is
lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 3 WIA and
MIA. Escort is provided by 206 P-47s and P-51s; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots
MIA)
  2. 454 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard (219) and
industrial area (177) at Ludwigshafen; targets of opportunity are the
marshalling yard at Kaiserslautern (33) and other (4); 11 B-17s are lost
and 298 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 5 WIA and 103 MIA. Escort is provided by
192 P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 333 of 366 B-24s hit the secondary target, the Karlsruhe marshalling
yard; 12 others hit Landau; 3 B-24s are damaged beyond repair and 28
damaged; 6 airmen are KIA and 8 WIA. Escort is provided by 228 P-47s and
P-51s; 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
  Mission 703: 3 B-17s and 7 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands
and Germany during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 160 B-26s and A-20s strike
ammunition, ordnance, and supply depots at Hamburg, Germany; fighters escort
the bombers, fly armed reconnaissance, attack railroads and bridges, and
cover ground forces of the V and XIX Corps; the IX Tactical Air Command aids
the US 28th Infantry Division in withstanding a counterattack near
Kommerscheidt, Germany. HQ 362d Fighter Group moves from Prosnes to
Rouvres, France. The 33d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d
Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Gosselies to Le Culot, Belgium
with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 500 B-24s and B-17s bomb the
Floridsdorf oil refinery at Vienna, Austria in the largest operation against
a single target during World War II; 10 other heavy bombers bomb about 20
scattered targets of opportunity and 1 alternate target, the Kapfenberg,
Austria tank works; 139 P-38s and 198 P-51s provide escort; 16 of the
fighters strafe targets of opportunity in the target area; 42 other B-24s,
with fighter escort, bomb troop concentrations at Mitrovica and Podgorica,
Yugoslavia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers, flying
300+ sorties, bomb bridges in the Brenner Pass and in the NE Po Valley to
interdict the Germans' 2 main supply routes from the N; fighters and fighter-
bombers hit defenses and forces in the battle areas in the N Apennines S of
Bologna and attack communications targets to the N as well as in battle zone.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Guam Island hit shipping in the
Bonin Islands and, during an armed reconnaissance mission, bomb Marcus Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 24 Mariana Islands-based B-29s bomb 2 Iwo
Jima Island airfields, starting tactical operations against the island in
preparation for the US invasion in Feb 45.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s and P-40s
attack airfields and barges in the C Philippine Islands. B-24s also hit the
town of Bima and Waingapoe Bay shipping on Soembawa Island in the Lesser
Sunda Islands.  B-25s and fighter-bombers strike airfields, troop
concentrations, and communications targets throughout the Halmahera Island
area and NE peninsula of Celebes Island. Fighter-bombers and A-20s hit Amahai
and targets of opportunity on the S coast of Ceram Island.  Almost 50 A-20s,
supporting ground forces, blast installations in Sarmi, New Guinea area. HQ
71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group arrives on Leyte Island from Biak Island.
The ground echelons of the 35th and 36th Fighter Squadrons, 8th Fighter
Group, move from Morotai Island to Dulag, Leyte Island (air echelon continues
to operate P-38s from Morotai).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

06/1539Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 10:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 4 B-25s bomb Torishima
Island, score a hit on a large building, sink two nearby barges, and probably
hit other shipping targets; about 20 fighters intercept, downing 1 B-25; the
B-25s claim 3 victories.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 16 P-40s pound the Mangshih
and Lungling areas; 15 others hit buildings and other targets of opportunity
at Wanling, Burma and around Chefang and Kweihsien; the detachment of the
21st Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth AF, operating from
Liuchow with F-5s, returns to base at Kunming.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): AAF, India-Burma Sector, China-
Burma-India Theater is redesignated AAF, India-Burma Theater. In Burma, 70+
P-47s, sweep airfields at Anisakan, Onbauk, Shwebo, Kin, and Kawlin; destroy
and damage bridges at Hinlong, China and Wingkang; bomb the town of Mawtaung
and marshalling yard at Kanbalu; hit boxcars at Wuntho and Meza, boats along
the Irrawaddy River from Katha to Twinnge, and attack several scattered
targets of opportunity; 28 P-47s fly combat patrols S of Myitkyina; 8 B-25s
bomb the military area at Namun and supply dump at Mansi; large-scale
transport operations continue; the 165th Liaison Squadron (Commando), 1st Air
Commando Group, moves from Tamu to Yazagyo with UC-64s and L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, the 92d and 94th
Troop Carrier Squadrons, 439th Troop Carrier Group, move from Lonray to
Chateaudun with C-47s; the 306th Troop Carrier Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier
Group, moves from Peray to St-Andre-de-L'Eure with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 704: 1,131 bombers and 802
fighters in 6 forces make PFF attacks on the oil industry in W Germany; 5
bombers and 5 fighters are lost:
  1. 291 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg (142) and Rhenania (138) oil
refineries at Hamburg; 3 others hit the Lubeck oil refinery at Hamburg; 4
B-17s are lost and 103 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 2 WIA and 36 MIA. Escort is
238 of 258 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 262 B-17s are dispatched to hit the aviation industry at Neumunster
(23); 231 hit the secondary, the Neumunster marshalling yard; 3 others hit
targets of opportunity; 10 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is KIA. Escort is 93
of 102 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 215 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Mittelland Canal at Minden; 2 others
hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 31 damaged; 10 airmen are MIA.
43 of 44 P-47s escort without loss.
  4. 101 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Bottrop oil refinery; 12 others hit
the secondary, the marshalling yard at Hamm; 39 B-17s are damaged. 257 of 271
P-51s escort without loss.
  5. 143 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Sterkrade oil refinery (134); 1
other hit Vreden; 27 B-24s are damaged. 40 of 43 P-51s escort claiming 0-0-1
aircraft; 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  6. 119 B-17s are dispatched to hit the benzol oil plant at Duisburg (65);
43 hit a target of opportunity, the marshalling yard at Rheydt; 18 B-17s are
damaged. 51 of 54 P-47s escort without loss.
  30 P-51s of the Scouting Forces patrol the area without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather grounds the 9th Bombardment
Division; fighters, during armed reconnaissance, attack railroads and
bridges; the IX Tactical Air Command also supports ground forces in the
Schmidt, Germany area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 580+ fighter-
escorted B-17s and B-24s bomb the Moosbierbaum oil refinery and Vienna S
ordnance depot, alternate targets of Maribor, Yugoslavia marshalling yard,
the Kapfenberg steel works and the Deutsch Wagram and Graz marshalling
yards, and the railroad power sub station at Bolzano, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers strike
electric transformers and converters, railway bridges and railway fills on
the rail line through the Brenner Pass; fighter-bombers and fighters again
hit troops and gun positions in the battlelines S of Bologna and
communications targets N of the battle area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): In the Bonin Islands, B-24s from Saipan Island
bomb shipping at Okimura and Higashi-minato and hit Ani Jima Island. During
the night of  6/7 Nov a snooper mission is flown over Iwo Jima Island
airfields; the dispersal areas and runways are bombed. Beginning on this date
and continuing through 24 Dec 44, B-24s on Saipan Island fly 24 missions to
lay 170 mines in several anchorages throughout the Bonin Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s strike Lahug,
Cebu Island and Fabrica, Negros Island Airfields, while fighter-bombers pound
Palompon on Leyte Island, a bridge N of Valencia on Mindanao Island, and
barges in Ormoc Bay, Leyte Island, all in the Philippine Islands. B-24s bomb
Malili on Celebes Island. The 822d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th
Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Biak Island to Morotai Island with
B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

06/1549Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 10:58:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 6 B-25s bomb the railroad
yards at Yuncheng; 2 B-25s and 21 P-51s, P-40s, and P-38s hit targets of
opportunity around Wanling, Burma and Mangshih, Chefang, and Lungling; HQ
68th Composite Wing moves from Liuchow to Luliang; the air echelon of the
118th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth AF (attached to 23d
Fighter Group), ceases operating from Liuchow and returns to base at
Chengkung with P-51s.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 80+ P-47s hit gun
positions, supply areas, and troops at Bhamo, Pintin, and in the vicinity of
Myazedi, bomb airfields at Kawlin, Shwebo, and Onbauk, hit a fuel dump near
Panghkam road junction, attack railroad targets of opportunity between Indaw
and Shwebo, and targets of opportunity along the Irrawaddy River between
Bhamo and Katha; 28 other P-47s maintain overlapping patrols over the area S
of Myitkyina; transports fly 260+ sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): No bomber operations because of
unfavorable weather; fighters fly patrols and armed reconnaissance, attacking
railroads, gun positions and other targets; the IX Tactical Air Command
supports the US V Corps as fierce counterattacks force the US 28th Infantry
Division to retreat from the village of Kommerscheidt, Germany; the V Corps
decides to withdraw the Kall River bridgehead.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 550+ B-17s and B-24s attack
Maribor and Alipasin Most, Yugoslavia and Brunico, Italy marshalling yards;
the Floridsdorf oil refinery at Vienna, Austria; the Brenner Pass railroad
route; railroad bridges at Pinzano al Tagliamento, Casarsa della Delizia,
Mezzocorona, Ora, and Albes, Italy; and troop concentrations at Novi Pazar,
Sjenica, Prijepolje, and Mitrovica, Yugoslavia; fighters escort all
operations except the attacks on troop concentrations; in Yugoslavia, 124
P-38s strafe troop concentrations at Podgorica and roads and railroads near
Raska, between Visegrad-Prijepolje-Sjenica and from Sjenica to Novi Pazar.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): The Adjutant General officially
orders the de facto action of 19 Oct redesignating HQ XII Fighter Command to
HQ XXII Tactical Air Command. In Italy, medium bombers of the 42d Bombardment
Wing (Medium) aid the Royal Air Force's (RAF's) Desert Air Force (DAF) in
supporting the British Eighth Army's attack on Forli; the 57th Bombardment
Wing continues an interdiction campaign against railway supply lines in NE
Italy; fighter-bombers closely support US Fifth Army forces astride the Idice
River in the mountains S of Bologna and bomb communications N of the
Apennines, scoring many hits on bridges between Piacenza and Bologna.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Guam Island strike Iwo Jima Island
and, during an armed reconnaissance flight, bomb AA positions on Marcus
Island. P-47s strafe the airfield on Pagan Island during the early morning
and follow up with rocket and strafing runs later in the morning.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s and fighter-bombers hit Fabrica, Alicante, and Bacolod
Airfields on Negros Island, and Opon Airfield on Cebu, Island; shipping at
various C Philippine Islands locations, and communications and supply targets
at Tambuco, Ormoc, and Palompon on Leyte Island, Valencia on Mindanao Island,
and other areas; P-38s and B-25s hit Del Monte Airfield on Mindanao Island
and targets of opportunity in Macajalar Bay on Mindanao Island, and Mandai
Airfield on Celebes Island; the 89th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d
Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Hollandia, New Guinea to Dulag, Leyte
Island with A-20s. On Celebes Island, B-25s hit Tanamon, Mapanget, and
Langoan. On Halmahera Island, B-25s and fighter-bombers hit Galela, Miti, and
Kaoe Airfields. In sweeps over Boeroe Island, Lesser Sunda Islands, and Ceram
Island, Moluccas Islands, small groups of B-25s and P-38s hit runways and
small shipping. B-24s bomb Raba Estate in the Sunda Islands. In New Guinea,
the 4th Photographic Charting Squadron, 311th Photographic Wing (Mapping and
Charting) (attached to Thirteenth AF), arrives at Hollandia from the US with
F-7s (the squadron will begin mapping of the SW and W Pacific in Dec 44).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

06/1559Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 11:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Zeke/Zero

Dee Shneiderman writes:
 >
 >Hi, I'm new to this list so this question has probably been asked before, but
 >who and why was that Mitsubishi airplane called a "Zero?
 >
 >Reference/ Bibliographic Instruction Librarian
 >Pembroke State University
 >Pembroke NC 28372
 >dshneiderman@pembvax1.pembroke.edu

Starting in 1921, the Japanese Navy assigned each aircraft entering
service a designation combining a brief description of it's
function with a type number.  From 1921 to 1928, the type number
was based on the current Japanese year of reign during which the
aircraft was accepted for production.  In 1929, the system was
changed so that the type number was based on the last digits of the
Japanese calendar year.  (1929 = 2589, 1940 = 2600, etc.)  The
Japanese Army Air Force had adopted this system in 1927; the main
difference was the way in which aircraft accepted in 1940 (2600 in
the Japanese calendar) were designated.  The JAAF called them Type
100 and the JNAF called them Type 0.

Therefore, the aircraft that was commonly known as Zero was
officially designated Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter.
What many people do not realize is that the Allied Code Name for
this aircraft was ZEKE not Zero.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:33:30 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: PEARL HARBOR

  FOR JIM ADAMS
  November 6, 1994
  Many thanks for making available that dramatic, first hand account of December
7 written by your father.  It deserves to be shared with the largest possible
audience, and I hope other list users will help at this.  I for one am making it
available to the users of the Compuserve 50th anniversary forum.
  Jim, I realize it was quite a bit of work to retype this, but I would still
like to know more about what you found at the National Archives.  Could you give
us some samples?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 09:42:11 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: PEARL HARBOR

>
>   FOR JIM ADAMS
>   November 6, 1994
>   Many thanks for making available that dramatic, first hand account of December
> 7 written by your father.  It deserves to be shared with the largest possible
> audience, and I hope other list users will help at this.  I for one am making it
> available to the users of the Compuserve 50th anniversary forum.

John - I've captured it and put it out in my 50 YA archives. It was a
terrific first hand account.

John Davis

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 10:10:17 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: NOST: Band Performance

I want to share something with the list that made a deep impression on me
as well as about 5,000 other people last night. My daughter is in her
High School band. If any of you have kids in marching bands, you know
that a big part of being in such a band in participating in band
competitions. Well our daughter's band took part yesterday in a
competition in Cary, N.C. (where we live). Her band came in 5th but what
I wanted to tell you about was the performance of one of the other bands.
It was the performance of a band from Lynchburg, Va. - Heritage H.S.
Their program was based upon WW II.

Their performance was very unusual in that instead of trying to
"glamorize" the era with popular music, etc. they presented a very moving
depiction of the war. They used some music from Holsts "The Planets" (the
Mars theme), as well as some big band music and ended up with the
National Anthem. The program began with the Mars theme and they used Nazi
flags to show the spread of the Nazi regime. Then they had a part which
had some kids dressed in period outfits dancing to Glenn Miller's "In The
Mood". The music stopped abruptly, and an announcer came on and told
about the attack on Pearl Harbor and told all service men to return to
their units. The couples broke apart and went their separate ways.

Some more music then was presented that was supposed to depict the ebb and
flow of the war itself and they had large tabloids displayed on the field
giving info on the major battles (the dates were all correct by the way as
was the shapes of the islands, etc.). They then ended with some more big
band music, with the service men coming home and being reunited with their
girl friends waiting back home. All of a sudden you realized something was
wrong because there was one single lone girl in the middle of the field.
You then saw a service man come towards her with a folded flag in his
arms. You then knew what had happened. Her boy friend wouldn't be coming
home. The flag girls then picked up a tremendous flag that was at least 40
feet wide and ran the width of the football field. It was a reproduction
of the NY Times headline announcing the surrender of Japan. The band then
very solemnly played the Star Spangled Banner.

I must tell you, when they ended you could have heard a pin drop in the
stadium. Then everyone went crazy. The lady next to me broke down
crying. She said her father had fought in the war and never got over it.
Even all the HS kids were effected. It was one very moving experience and
I felt great that a HS band felt strong enough about the war to want to
do a program based upon it.

I don't know if they won the competition, we had to leave before the
awards were given out, but I am sure they did. I just wanted to share
this with the list, as last night alot of people in central North
Carolina really had an opportunity to dweal on the war and to show their
appreciation to those who fought and died in it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 12:00:05 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOST: Band Performance

John, a great story for veteran's day week!

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 23:03:50 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Query: Zero name

On Fri, 4 Nov 1994, Henry Sirotin wrote:

> If I can anticipate the next question, if two planes of the same type
> entered service the same year, how did they tell them apart? Both the
> Army and the Navy had separate identification systems independent of
> the year system.

That is only part of the answer. The year-linked designator was not just
a type number, it also had a designator. To distinguish aircraft with
a similar role entering service in the same year, they just changed the
names a bit. For example, there was a Naval Type 0 *reconaissance*
floatplane (Aichi E13A 'Jake') and a Naval Type 0 *Observation* Seaplane
(Mitsubishi F1M 'Pete') as well as a Naval Type 0 *Small Reconaissance*
seaplane (Yokosuka E14Y 'Glenn').

> The Army numbered all its aircraft sequentially in
> a Ki- series which reached about Ki-102, I believe.

Not *all* its aircraft --- they made an exception for aircraft not
designed to Army requirements, and gliders.  The highest numbers were
Ki.117, Ki.200 and Ki.230.

> designations were unified in the 1970s. Here, the Type 00 Carrier-
> based Fighter (a formal designation) was the A6M; the sixth navy
> fighter design (A) accepted by the Imperial Navy from Mitsubishi (M).

Not the sixth aircraft from Mitsubishi; but an aircraft designed to the
sixth requirement for a fighter. For example, the fighters of the IJN
Navy were the A1N, A2N, A3N, A4N, A5M, A6M, and A7M --- the first four
built by Nakajima, the latter three by Mitsubishi.

> Subtypes would be the A6M-1, -2, etc. Among the codes used here,
> in addition to A, were B for torpedo bomber, C for carrier based
> scout, D for dive bomber, E for flying boats and float planes,
> and G for multiengine bombers.

A      Carrier-borne fighter
B      Carrier-borne (Torpedo) bomber
C      Reconaissance, wheeled undercarriage
D      Carrier-borne Dive bomber
E      Reconaissance seaplane
F      Observation seaplane
G      Land-based bomber
H      Flying boat
J      Land-based fighter
K      Trainer
L      Transport
M      Special seaplane
MX     Special purpose
N      Fighter seaplane
P      Bomber
Q      Patrol
R      Land-based reconaissance
S      Night fighter

> Manufacturers codes are too many to
> list, but among the common ones in addition to Mitsubishi/M were
> Nakajima/N, Kawanishi/K, and Aichi/A.

I already had a list. It is actually shorter than the other one:

A      Aichi
D      Showa
K      Kawanishi
M      Mitsubishi
N      Nakajima
P      Nihon
V      Seversky
W      Watanabe
W      Kyushu
Y      Yokosuka (Naval Arsenal)

Emmanuel Gustin.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:11:23 EST
From:    "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: New .gifs at byrd.

We have a new directory at byrd.mu.wvnet.edu,
/pub/history/military/new.pictures
which will hold new uploads of .gifs for one month.  The files will then
be moved to directories according to the topic of the picture.

The list appended is the current contents of the new directory, and the
index will be updated to show additions and moved files will be deleted.
A separate posting will give directions for accessing byrd.

BTW, see end of file for my new e-mail address.

Name          Size   Date    Description
3_iron.gif    121232 Nov  6  Three ironclads off Cairo, Ill., 1863. L to
                             R: BARON DE KALB, CINCINNATI, and MOUND
                             CITY.  NH 5663
ac-119_1.gif  225451 Nov  6  AC-119 gunship over Tan Son Nhut, 1969.
ac-130_1.gif  120825 Nov  6  An AC-130 gunship at Nha Trang AB.
ac-47_1.gif   182146 Nov  6  Interior shot of an AC-47 showing mini-
                             guns.
antous.gif    172911 Nov  2  An armored track with six 105-mm. recoil-
                             less rifles externally mounted.
army_1.gif    167426 Nov  6  "Elements of the U.S. Army's Ist Infantry
                             Division arrive at Vung Tau Bay on 13 July
                             1965 as part of the buildup of U.S. Forces
                             in Vietnam."
b52_1.gif     176453 Nov  6  A "buff" delivering a load of iron bombs.
bb05.gif      118359 Nov  2  USS KEARSARGE, BB-5. NR$L(OLD) 11409
bb06.gif      117102 Nov  6  USS KENTUCKY, BB-6. NH 61959
bb15.gif       89731 Nov  6  USS GEORGIA, BB-15. NH 73911
bb21.gif       86934 Nov  2  USS KANSAS, BB-21. HR&L(OLD) 6595
bb30.gif       94822 Nov  6  USS FLORIDA, BB-30. NH 54174
bb39.gif       66902 Nov  6  USS ARIZONA, BB-39, c. 1917. NH 95244
bb64.gif      137699 Nov  6  USS MINNESOTA, BB-64, 11 NOV 44, at Pearl
                             Harbor, alongside USS OKLAHOMA, BB-37 (the
                             "Okie" is being prepared for return to
                             CONUS.)
bradley.gif   377882 Nov  6  General Omar Bradley.
ch-3e.gif     180849 Nov  6  "A CH-3E helicopter airlifts troops on a
                             mission against enemy forces, June '68."
constitu.gif   84469 Nov  6  Frigate CONSTITUION, 18 Aug 1914, shown
                             after 1907 rebuild.  Cruiser CHESTER in
                             the background.  NH 55907
cv02.gif       85530 Nov  6  USS LEXINGTON, CV-2, 31 May 34, with a
                             deckload of biplanes and showing that
                             distinctive profile clearly. NARA 80-G-
                             415861
cvs40.gif      96963 Nov  6  USS TARAWA, CVS-40, 13 Aug 58, unmodified
                             ESSEX-class profile.  NARA 80-G-1046503
dog_1.gif     303361 Nov  6  AC1 David B. Shark and his sentry dog
                             stand guard at Cam Ranh AB, South Vietnam,
                             1970.
eisenhow.gif  381724 Nov  6  General Dwight David Eisenhower.
enterpri.gif  160424 Nov  6  Schooner ENTERPRISE, c. 1812, shown in
                             brigantine rig.  NH 91722
f-105_1.gif   228747 Nov  6  Four F-105 "Thuds" in formation over
                             Thailand.
gunsight.gif   99414 Nov  6  Gunsight footage of MiG-17 taken from a
                             F-105 "Thud", 3 Jun 67.
halleck.gif3   40419 Nov  6  General Henry W. Halleck
indy.gif      157542 Nov  6  The razee INDEPENDENCE (a 'razee' is a
                             ship with one the upper gun-deck removed,
                             which in this case made an excellent
                             frigate out of a hog of a '74.)
iwo_jima.gif  213512 Nov  2  Flag raising on Mount Suribachi.
kv1.gif       191985 Nov  2  Ugly Soviet heavy tank.
lvt-a1.gif    198467 Nov  6  Amphibious tracked landing craft (this
                             model has a tank turret mounted.)
m3a3.gif      228663 Nov  6  The ubiquitous Sherman tank.
m_row.gif     155894 Nov  6  "Murders' Row", Ulithi Atoll, four Cvs
                             at anchor.
macarthur.gif 397316 Nov  3  General Douglas MacArthur.
marshall.gif  337125 Nov  6  General George Marshall.
mcclella.gif  344388 Nov  6  General George B. McClellan.
minnesot.gif  107832 Nov  6  USS MINNESOTA, screw frigate, post ACW.
new-10.gif    116121 Nov  6  Duplicate, delete.
price.gif     113384 Nov  6  GENERAL STERLING PRICE, ACW paddle-wheeler.
ridgway.gif   325823 Nov  6  General Matthew Ridgway.
sabine.gif     73063 Nov  6  Frigate SABINE, c. 1869. NH 91722
sheridan.gif  395599 Nov  6  General Philip H. Sheridan.
sherman.gif   246568 Nov  6  General William T. Sherman.
t35.gif       138903 Nov  6  Another ugly Sov. tank.  This one had
                             five turrets!
take.gif      293447 Nov  6  "Take her down!"  Last command of a heroic
                             submarine skipper.
us_grant.gif  278187 Nov  6  General Ulysses S. Grant
vermont.gif   158917 Nov  6  Ship-of-the-line VERMONT, shown after ACW
                             in New York.  Note Dahlgren boat gun in
                             foreground.
w_scott.gif   357460 Nov  6  General Winfield Scott.
westmore.gif  276714 Nov  6  General William C. Westmoreland.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:13:42 EST
From:    "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: Accessing byrd.

(my new addres is on this file, not the index listing.)
How to access byrd.mu.wvnet.edu via WWW or gopher.


Web clients may access this site at:
   http://history.cc.ukans.edu/history/WWW_history_main.html

Below is the path I use to access byrd via the gopher at Purdue U.

Academic Resources on the Internet (by Subject)/
Academic Resources on the Internet (by Subject)
Humanities / Social Sciences Reading Room/
History Network <TEL>
Login: history
Resources: Historical Data Bases
BYRD: Historical Archives (ftp byrd.mu.mvnet.edu) (US)


FTP vistors should go to /pub/history

Larry J

LJEWELL@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Mod.: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 23:31:21 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: HYPO: "The big what-if"

On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Edward S. Miller wrote:

> as quite amazed at the American achievement.  As to Heisenberg's motives, we
> are left with the ultimate uncertainty principle.
>   A re-reading of Richard Rhodes's =The Making of the Atomic Bomb= shows
> that American and emigre scientists made some similarly pessimistic
> estimates early in the US program.  However, in this country, no scientist
> had the dominant stature of Heisenberg.  The correct estimates soon appeared
> and the Manhattan project got rolling about the time the Germans gave up.

The problem was not the 'dominant stature' of Heisenberg. In fact,
Heisenberg had to fight for his position and career, as had many
theoretical physicists, when he was attacked by the defenders of 'Aryan
Physics' for his 'Jewish theories'. As many things under the Nazi regime,
this had nothing to do with logic. Theoretical physics, a branch of
science traditionally very strong in Germany, was attacked because the
main defenders of Aryan Physics, Lenard and Stark, were experimental
physicists -- and because they disliked Einstein, Jewish and a
theoretician. So theoretical abstraction, viewed by many outside Germany
as a typically German approach, was suddenly dismissed as 'Jewish
thinking'!

This did much to ruin the fabric of German physics, already weakened by
the expelling of Jewish scientists --- which had made up nearly a quarter
of the total physical community. In many places, important posts were left
open or totally incompetent people put in charge. The problems this
created were clear enough, but because of the political competition
between Hess, Rosenberg, Goering, Himmler and Rust (responsible for
education) they were never adressed.  The troubles continued until 1942 or
1943, when Goering and Goebbels began to understand that Germany was
losing the scientific war. Aryan physics was then quickly dismissed.

The problems in making the bomb were compounded because of the weakness
of experimental physics in Germany. There was one cyclytron in Germany;
there were 30 in the US. Good theoretical work used to compensate for
this weakness; during the war years it couldn't.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 22:32:02 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P38  CBI & Other

"Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL> writes:

>      Arnaud,
 [stuff deleted...]

>         3.  The AAF overall did have a positive win/loss ratio against all
>      adversaries in WWII.  It's possible that the good luck was spread out
>      fairly evenly.
>
>         4.  There was a war on, and you certainly don't want the folks back
>      home to think your losing, do you?  I don't have the name at the tip
>      of my tongue, but didn't an AAF B-17 pilot get a posthumous CMH for
>      sinking a Japanese "Battleship" off the Phillipines in 1941 when in
>      fact he had attacked an American submarine which simply dove to escape
>      the bombs?  Every army has got to have some heros, even if they make
>      them up themselves.
>
>      Please Note:  This is not meant as an attack on the honesty or courage
>      of our pilots in WWII.  The statements in 1-3 above are accurate, our
>      fliers fought bravely, and did outfight their oponents.  On the other
>      hand, POLITICS has always played a hand in how war news is reported to
>      the public back home.

Steve,
I was not speaking specifically of the USAAF, but of all Air Forces
as a whole. I'd have a bent for this explanation. And I have not read
that the USAF had a positive kill ratio in Europe, but on the contrary that
the losses were fairly even up to 1944. In 1945 the kill ratio suddenly
became 3.6/1 IN FAVOUR OF THE GERMANS, due to several factors.
Therefore there should be US squadrons with very bad as well as excellent
ratios. It seems to me that you are perfectly right in saying that politics
changed bad ratios into favourable ones.
What I am amazed at is finding those distorted ratios reproduced without
comments in serious books and unit histories. This does look like a lack of
honesty on the part of the units of all sides, not of the poor and brave
individual pilots.


Arnaud.

"Le Grand Cirque est parti.
Le public a ete satisfait. Le programme etait assez charge, les acteurs pas
trop mauvais, et les lions ont devore le dompteur...La pluie et l'oubli en
effaceront vite les traces."
-- P. Clostermann, 602 Squadron.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:15:53 -0800
From:    Jaimie Crafton <JaimieC@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: NOST: Band Performance

John,

I'm a relatively new ready to the group, but have particularly enjoyed
your contributions.  I'm originally from that neck of the woods
(southside Va) and can say that, while the band performance you speek of
is certainly exceptional, it is also not surprising.  I grew up in a
small Va town and went to a private academy.  There were only 40
students in my high school graduating class and half of which I start
kindergarden with.  For "poor dumb rednecks" we dazzeled the Va
Conference in all forms of competition.  I personally participated in
numerous forensic debates - winning serveral titles.

Anyway, not to go too far astray, I think much of this country could
benefit from watching many a "small town USA" happenings to realize
that, that is truly where things that matter in life are... family,
church, school, friends, and a true appreciation of our heritage.
Don't exploit; learn, understand, and enjoy!!
Sorry for the soap box rhetoric.

Regards,

Jaimie Crafton

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Nov 1994 22:22:19 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: NOST: BAND PERFORMANCE

Absolutely great, John. What a moving experience that must have been. I wonder
how many WWII veterans were in the audience. If they are like me vis a vis WWII
memories and reactions, they must have become quite emotional, and good for
that WVA band recognizing the importance of commemorating WWII and saluting its
living and dead veterans. Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Nov 1994 to 6 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Date:     Tue, 8 Nov 1994 00:01:58 -0500
Reply-To: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 6 Nov 1994 to 7 Nov 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: OR

There are 30 messages totalling 1430 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. HYPO: "The big what-if"
  2. INF: USN Chronology 11-07-94
  3. NOST: BAND PERFORMANCE
  4. WEAP:  P38 in CBI & Other (2)
  5. <No subject given>
  6. more on bersaglieri
  7. Eastern Front Books (3)
  8. IS THE NET UP??
  9. Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 2
 10. WEAP: P38 CBI & Other
 11. INFO: File List
 12. WEAP: BB-64??
 13. INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-NOV-1944
 14. MEDIA: Unexploded Bomb
 15. COLLECTING STUFF: PATCHES + PINS
 16. MEDIA: Arctic Convoys
 17. WEAP M5A1 Stuart tank
 18. WEAP: P38  CBI & Other
 19. Italian marines in WW2
 20. Unsub
 21. Dams and Defence (2)
 22. Italian marines in WW2 (part 2)
 23. [INF] USAAF 8 NOV 44
 24. P-47/P-51
 25. Lockheed Model 18
 26. WEAP:Query: Zero name

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 02:00:32 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO: "The big what-if"

In full agreement with Emmanuel's remarks about the inability of Germany to
make up for experimental shortcomings with theoretical brilliance during the
war, I would like to make a small comment.  The creation of the atomic bomb
was not a really breathtaking theoretical accomplishment.  While Leo Szilard
probably had the original breakthrough, others were able to carry out the line
of thought almost immediately.  The Manhattan Project was a brilliant, and
expensive Engineering project--with a lot of physics thrown in for good
measure.  The point is that the physicists were already there, brainpower
was assembled, not created--while the technology to deploy the weapon was
created, assembled, and then disassembled in an atomic explosion.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 04:00:10 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-07-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/07 Tue.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             PT-301, by accidental explosion, western New Guinea
              area,
              01 d. 15'S., 136 d. 23'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 07:51:52 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: NOST: BAND PERFORMANCE

  FOR JOHN DAVIS
  That was a moving message about the band contest.  I have forwarded it to the
WWII forum on Compuserve.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 07:34:17 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  P38 in CBI & Other

     Arnaud wrote:


     > Steve,
     > I was not speaking specifically of the USAAF, but of all Air Forces
     > as a whole. I'd have a bent for this explanation. And I have not
     > read that the USAF had a positive kill ratio in Europe, but on the
     > contrary that the losses were fairly even up to 1944. In 1945 the
     > kill ratio suddenly became 3.6/1 IN FAVOUR OF THE GERMANS, due to
     > several factors.


     Arnaud,

     You are quite correct, I did not express myself well.  I was not
     thinking of the AAF as a whole, but only in fighter v/s fighter
     action.  When you throw in the losses of strategic bombers to German
     AAA and fighters, as well as the losses of close support/ground
     interdiction aircraft to AAA (neither mission being performed much by
     the Germans in late 1944 through 1945) then the ratio changes.

     Checking the records of the heavy and medium bomber squadrons of the
     8th AF, and the ground interdiction squadrons of the 12th and 15th AF
     (among others) to determine the number of aircraft lost v/s the claims
     for enemy a/c killed would probably identify the discrepancy, but to
     what purpose?  These aircraft weren't designed or deployed to destroy
     enemy a/c so it won't be any news that they weren't very successful in
     the role.

     I recall reading years ago about a P-51 pilot who flew over Italy, his
     function was to destroy armor, trains, bridges etc. as a ground
     attacker.  In one bad week he had three Mustangs shot out from under
     him in three days (small arms fire penetrating the glycol tank or
     lines).  He would head out into the Med, bail out, and have the British
     pick him up in a Walrus (same crew all three times).  This pilot never
     got a kill to attempt to even up the losses of those a/c, but the
     rolling stock, ammunition, fuel, food etc. that he destroyed before it
     could reach the German troops made it's own contribution to the war
     effort.

     I personally don't see that the numbers, by themselves, indicate that
     something is being hidden/ignored.  You have got to look at the total
     picture, including the units assigned mission.

     Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 06:56:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Mary!

Will see what I can find. That name is familiar. Off hand, would this
person have been in touch with or known of "Madeleine"?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 07:18:01 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

Hello, Mike!

Here goes with the bio on Generalmajor Fritz Fullriede.

Born: 4 Jan 1895 in Bremen

1914-1918: Volunteered for WWI service.
December, 1939: 1a in the 191st Infantry Division
1 Feb 1940: Commanding Officer of 1st Battalion of Inf. Regt. 642.
July, 1941: Wounded in Russia
1943: Sent to Tunesia. CO of Battle Group
March-August 1944: CO of Panzer Grenadier Regt. 200
                   CO of Pz. Gr. Rgt. 67
                   CO of Parachute-Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 of the Parachute-
                      Panzer Division "Hermann Goering".
Fought in the defensive battles around Warsaw
14 Feb-23 Mar 1945: Battle Commandant of Kolberg in Pommerania
>From 3 April 1945-27 Apr 1945: CO of 3rd Naval Inf. Division
>From 28 Apr-8 May 1945: CO of Battle Group "Fullriede" in Northern
Germany.

1945-1949: In Dutch Captivity.
Died on 13 Nov 1969 in Borstel/Schleswig-Holstein


Knight's Cross: 11 April 1943 as Lt.-Col. and CO of Battle Group
"Fullriede in Panzer Army High Command

Oakleaf: Number 803 on 23 March 1944 as Colonel and Battle Commandant
of Kolberg

After his death, his family moved to South Africa, where they live to
this day.

Hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 07:10:36 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with some more titles dealing with "Barbarossa".

                       Paperbacks

I Cannot Forgive by Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic
The General Was a Spy by Heinz Hoehne
Hitler: A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock
Men of Colditz by P. R. Reid
Adolf Hitler by Colin Cross
The Fall of Fortress Europe by Fred Majdalany
Das Reich by Max Hastings
The Battle for Moscow by Albert Seaton
The Warsaw Uprising by George Bruce
Gehlen: Spy of the Century by E. H. Cookridge
Hitler's Secret Conversations by Henry Picker
The Rise and Fall of Nazi Germany by T. L. Jarman
Barbarossa by Alan Clark
Knights of the Black Cross by Bryan Perrett
Kommando by James Lucas
Ashes of Honor by Christian de la Maziere
Blitzkrieg to Defeat by H. R. Trevor-Roper
Stalingrad by Geoffrey Jukes
The Siege of Leningrad by Alan Wykes
Kursk by Geoffrey Jukes
Barbarossa by John Keegan
Warsaw Rising by Guenther Deschner
Rundstedt by John Keegan
Zhukov by Otto Preston
Stalin by Ross Tremain
Panzer Division by Kenneth Macksey
The Guns: 1939-1945 by Ian V. Hogg
Waffen-SS by John Keegan
Russian Armor by Douglas Orgill
The Conspiracy Against Hitler by Harold Deutsch


The Warsaw Ghetto No Longer Exists by Juergen Stroop
Die Infanterie Regimenter 12 and 467: 1921-1945
Tank by Kenneth Macksey
Panzerzuege im Einsatz auf deutscher Seite 1939-1945 by Wolfgang
                                                        Sawodny
Otto Weidinger by Mark Yerger
Otto Kumm by Mark Yerger
The Onslaught: The German Drive to Stalingrad by Max Hastings
Von Kleist: From Hussar to Panzer General by Clyde Davis
SS Armor by Robert C. Stern
Panzer Battles by Major-General F. W. von Mellenthin
Hitler Moves East, 1941-1943 by Paul Carrell
Scorched Earth: The Russo-German War 1943-1944 by Paul Carrell


I found one more book I had overlooked which deals with

                        Normandy

Last Round Against Rommel: Battle of the Normandy Beachhead by
Alexander McKee


                     Novels

Mila 18 by Leon Uris
Stalingrad by Theodor Plivier
Moscow by Theodor Plievier
Berlin by Theodor Plievier
Days and Nights by Konstantin Simonov
Crack of Doom by Willy Heinrich

Hope this has been of interest. More tomorrow.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 08:23:15 -0500
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: IS THE NET UP??

HELP, HELP, TEST, TEST,
   Is the net up?? I haven't received anything for over 5 days. Is it me
or does the net have a problem???
 ___________________________________________________________________
|                                                                   |
|    Michael A. Oaks                 Music: A way to mark times     |
|    Kennesaw State College                 stepping stones through |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu             your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  MAO |
|___________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 09:31:04 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 2

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  07-Nov-1994 09:30am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 2


    [Ryan's second battle book, _The Last Battle_, was mostly about the
    battle for and capture of Berlin.  This brought about his research trip
    to the Soviet Union (with John Erickson) as one of the first westerners
    to visit the Moscow Archives and interview Soviet vets.  To keep his
    western audience interested, I suspect, he was also obligated to give
    some coverage to such events as the Soviet-American link up at the
    Elbe.  Evenso, I think TLB is the weakest book of the three (at least
    by the standards of marketing/sales) mainly because it concentrated on
    German vs. Soviet rather than western allies vs. Germans a la TLD and
    ABTF.  Perhaps here is the place to note that these stories are not in
    Ryan's books and that if you want the complete tales of the topics,
    turn to the books.]

    THE ODD

         On the 5th of April, a Britisher was brought into Gen. Steiner's
    headquarters wearing a German uniform.  Says Steiner, "This man said he
    wanted to fight against Communism.  I said to him, either you are a POW
    trying to escape (as he had been told to do) or you have some personal
    reason like a German girl-friend, or you really want to fight
    Communism.  And so I doubt very much if your Prime Minister would agree
    with that.  Come and have dinner with me because we must talk this one
    over."
         During the dinner Steiner said, "Why don't you spill the truth?
    You're an intelligence man - yes?"  The Britisher said, "My name is
    Douglas Webster St. Auben, Burnville Clay, and I'm a member of the
    British aristocracy.  We are not involved in any kind of British
    intelligence service."  Steiner said he had to go to the front the next
    day and would visit 50 others from the British Legation so the
    Britisher could go along.  On the way back Steiner said, "Here is my
    decision.  I don't want the British Legation types or you.  You can be
    my personal guest.  You'll of course always be with a German officer
    and once the British army reaches our lines you can take a car and
    leave."  On the 2nd of May he did leave.  Steiner remembers remembers
    that one year later he was taken to identify a photo of Clay and told
    to forget the entire incident.
                        - interview with Gen. Felix Steiner, German Army

         Considered half-Jewish, the Sternfeld family was shunned
    throughout the war.  Until mid-April they were not able to share the
    secure bomb shelter with the other house residents.  He'd take two
    blankets and hold them over his wife and daughter to protect them from
    flying splinters and rubble.  By April 20th the house residents "alomst
    dragged me into the regular shelter."  Now that the end of the war was
    obvious, people started being friendly.
                                  - interview with Leo Sternfeld, Berlin

         "I belong to the nation.  I have duties, not rights.  I realized
    after Hitler was dead that the wrong men were around him.  I am afraid
    that the Jews and people who are insincere, motivated chiefly by
    revenge and hate, and not sincere idealists of the resistance movement
    will use the present situation to get back at the Germans and while
    those guilty for war crimes should suffer, the common man should not be
    disgraced and branded as a war criminal.
         I did not believe the stories circulated in Allied and neutral
    countries, about concentration camps because I found Himmler, when I
    was sick, a kind and considerate person.  Yes, it was only when he
    betrayed Hitler that I realized what Himmler really was."
    - US Army interview with Hanna Reitsch, test pilot and Hitler favorite

    THE LINK-UP

         At 11:30 in the morning of April 25th, 1st Lt. Kotzebue and his
    men saw their first Russian.  At the little town of Leckwitz they saw a
    Russian horseman riding leisurely into a farmhouse courtyard.  There
    was no offer to shake hands, there was no friendly waving.  Asked where
    his unit was, the Russian replied curtly, "at the Elbe."
         When he crossed the river, Kotzebue wanted to create as good an
    impression as possible.  The Russians and Americans saluted each other
    and shook hands.  At first the Russians appeared to be quite suspicious
    but they thawed after Kotzebue told them who he was and what his unit
    was and said he had come in hopes of arranging a meeting between the
    Russian and American commanders.
         He decided to radio back to his headquarters.  Ironically, the
    message was made out to, "Commanding Officer Try Hard."  Kotzebue was
    told later that his headquarters didn't understand what the message
    meant.  They had forgotten he had been told to find the Russians and
    felt he had exceeded orders.  General Rinehart, Commander of the 69th
    Division, was all for pressing charges, but was talked out of it by
    General Robert V. Mareist, who impressed upon Rinehart that he'd look
    damn silly if he courtmartialed the man who first met the Russians.
    Instead, Kotzebue was awarded the Silver Star.
         In the meantime, another patrol under Lt. Richardson had contacted
    Russians and instead of staying with them, brought the Russians back
    with him, thereby getting all the publicity.
              - interview with 1st Lt. Albert "Buck" Kotzebue, US 69th Div.

    Wee paws for station identification.

    Doug



Received:  07-Nov-1994 09:30am

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:21:39 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P38 CBI & Other

On Sun, 6 Nov 1994, SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR wrote:

> >         3.  The AAF overall did have a positive win/loss ratio against all
> >      adversaries in WWII.  It's possible that the good luck was spread out
> >      fairly evenly.

> Therefore there should be US squadrons with very bad as well as excellent
> ratios. It seems to me that you are perfectly right in saying that politics
> changed bad ratios into favourable ones.
> What I am amazed at is finding those distorted ratios reproduced without
> comments in serious books and unit histories. This does look like a lack of

Despite the efforts of intelligence officers, the number of kills claimed
by fighter units always exceeds the number of actual kills by a
considerable margin --- large enough to give everyone a positive kill
ratio. (The kills claimed by bomber units are even more removed from
reality.) Perhaps the best known example are the grossly overestimated
kill numbers during the Battle of Britain, which totally misled the German
staffs. Even in later times, when fighters were equipped with gun cameras,
I would assume that any claimed number of kills is at least 50%
exaggerated.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:46:51 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: INFO: File List

     > Now, back on carriers.... Could you send me the list of files about
     > carriers (CV's, CVL's, CVE's) that you have on hand?

     > Cheers,

     > Jorge Merino



     Here is the list of what I have, but it's just a subset of what's
     available out of byrd.mu.wvnet.edu.


     CVs  1, 2, 8, 11, 12, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 31, 36, 66

     CVEs  6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 18, 20, 21, 23, 35, 36, 51, 57, 60, 68, 69, 71,
     73, 75, 95, 98, 99

     Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 11:47:39 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: BB-64??

First of all, thanks Larry for your info about the gifs at byrd. Now,
I have a question for the naval experts:

> bb64.gif      137699 Nov  6  USS MINNESOTA, BB-64, 11 NOV 44, at Pearl
>                              Harbor, alongside USS OKLAHOMA, BB-37 (the
>                              "Okie" is being prepared for return to
>                              CONUS.)

I was aware that BB-64 is USS Wisconsin. Is this the same ship (with other
name)?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 08:13:47 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-NOV-1944

On 08-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The last German defenders on Walcheren Island surrender,
bringing the number of prisoners taken by the Allies during operations in the
Scheldt estuary to 8,000. The US 3rd Army begins its offensive against the
Saar.

Italian Front - The Polish 3rd Division enters Dovadola, while the Polish 5th
Division pushes on towards Castrocaro.

Philippines (Leyte) - Fierce fighting continues in the X Corps sector, despite
a raging typhoon.

Burma - The 5th Indian Division completes the recapture of the area south of
Tiddim.

The Homefront
-------------
Nine Die In Train Wreck - Nine people have been killed and more than 75
injured when a section of the Southern Pacific's Chicago-to-San Francisco
Challenger train plunged off the track on a curve 50 miles northeast of
Sacromento.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 11:56:40 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: Unexploded Bomb

>From the DoD Newswire 6 November 1994


:WW II BOMB FOUND IN GERMANY

   LUDWIGSHAFEN, Germany  -- About 15,000 people were evacuated
from their homes for an hour Saturday while bomb experts defused a
1.8-ton unexploded British bomb from World War II.
   "The bomb was defused without any problems," said fire department
spokesman Michael Lindner.
   Buses and police vehicles had taken residents to schools and gyms
where refreshments were available during the short wait. Some opted
to leave the city and visit friends elsewhere, police said.
   Police in the Bavarian city of Regensburg also reported defusing
of an old 500-pound American-made bomb on Saturday.
   Police said the bomb uncovered at a new construction site was
defused by bomb experts and hauled away for later destruction at a
remote site. About 200 people were evacuated for about 90 minutes as
a precaution.
   On Oct. 19, 10,000 residents of the same area of Ludwigshafen,
Chancellor Helmut Kohl's hometown in southern Germany, were
evacuated for three hours while police defused an old bomb.
   Authorities in the industrial city of 170,000 people are using
British aerial impact maps from the war to systematically remove the
last bombs. As many as 20 others remain to be defused, said
Ludwigshafen police chief Voelker Strub.
   The bomb, a type known as an air mine, was in an empty field
between two western suburbs of the city. Air mines were used to
create a huge shock wave that would knock out windows and roofs so
that the normal 500-pound bombs that followed its use would cause
more damage.
   Saturday's was one of the largest evacuations by a bomb squad,
but dozens of such actions occur each year in Germany because the
thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance buried in the earth, much
of it still lethal.
   A Sept. 15 explosion of a World War II bomb at a Berlin
construction site killed three people and injured 17.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 11:01:33 -0600
From:    Drew Wright <Z3C84@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: COLLECTING STUFF: PATCHES + PINS

William,

My name is Drew Wright and I have been collecting Third Reich militaria
for several years now.  My only word of advice to you is to be extremely
careful when you buy anything supposedly made during this time.
Reproductions have, in my opinion, ruined the market for original
Third Reich militaria (to the extent that I am selling everything I have)
and this is especially true in the SS area (some reproduction cloth
insignia is nearly impossible to tell from original).  If you would be
content with reproduction items, by all means buy them.  Original SS-SD
cloth insignia can easily run you a few hundred bucks for one patch.
I'll try to send you some addresses of possible sources for original and
repro items.

Best, Drew Wright

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:24:09 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: Arctic Convoys

>From the DoD Newswire 7 November 1994

:ARCTIC CONVOY VETERANS STILL WARY OF MURDEROUS SEAS

     OFF THE KOLA PENINSULA, Russia, Nov 7  - Anyone
unfortunate enough to fall into these murderously cold seas in winter
usually took less than 10 minutes to die.
     "We remember these icy waters very well," growled Bob Allan,
staring at three small wreaths bobbing on the surface of the
steel-grey Barents Sea.
     Allan was one of a handful of British and Russian veterans who
had ventured out on a cruise boat to commemorate the 2,773 sailors who
died during the often-forgotten Arctic convoys of 1942 to 1945.
     The convoys, harried constantly by German submarines and
figher-bombers, battled from Iceland across to the ports of Murmansk
and Arkhangelsk with vital cargoes of food, weapons and fuel shipped
under the Allies' Lend-Lease aid programme to the former Soviet Union.
     The best-known convoy was the disastrous PQ-17, which lost 24 of
its 36 ships in July 1942 after it was ordered to disperse because
German warships were thought to be approaching.
     A total of 210 bombers, 430 tanks, 3,350 vehicles and almost
100,000 tonnes of ammunition went to the bottom.
     "The worst thing was that we did not have the ability to
manoeuvre. We were a sitting target. One hit and that was it,
especially if you were carrying aviation spirit," recalled Allan, who
served on one of the PQ-17 merchant ships.
     "The attacks were incessant -- both torpedo planes and dive
bombers. A lot of ships were picked off by submarines. We heard their
distress signals but we had enough problems of our own without them,"
he said.
     "Most of us thought we would die. Every year we've had since the
war ended has been a bonus. We never thought we'd see our 21st
birthdays."
     The convoys were escorted by destroyers, which had the weaponry
needed to drive off bombers and submarines.
     Conditions were foul aboard the cramped escort ships, which ran
the risk of capsizing in winter as tonnes of ice quickly built up on
the superstructure.
     "It was far from romantic. You could only hack the ice off with
picks," said Richard Squires, then a petty officer aboard a destroyer
responsible for fending off Nazi submarines with depth charges.
     "We used to work four hours off, four hours on the whole time,
running along the deck between waves," he recalled.
     "All you wanted to do was get somewhere warm and sleep. We were
never comfortably dry. And you could forget about water to wash with."
     A man who fell into the sea during the winter died mercifully
quickly. Those who made it to the lifeboats all too easily fell victim
to hypothermia and frostbite.
     "The people in the lifeboats had terrible injuries. One chap who
had been resting his hand on the side of the boat left all his fingers
behind when he was lifted out," said Squires.
     "Another had to have his legs guillotined off without
anaesthetic." Some ships had special "corpse officers" to deal with
the mangled bodies.
     "It was all pretty sordid," said naval commander Tom Horton, then
an able seaman on board one of the escorts.
     "Suddenly one of the merchant ships would disappear. If it was
carrying petrol or ammunition, it was a spectacular sight, sickening."
     Those who sailed during the summer soon discovered the Arctic sun
never set, giving German bombers the freedom to attack 24 hours a day.
The winter convoys hardly saw the sun, but the weather was so bad it
could break a ship's back.
     In all, the Arctic convoys delivered four million tonnes of food,
weapons, fuel and ammunition, for the loss of 18 escorts and 87
merchantmen.
     But as the Cold War quickly took hold, Moscow began to minimise
the role of the convoys, claiming they had supplied an insignificant
amount of food and arms.
     It took the advent of perestroika some 40 years later to let the
truth out. Only now do Russians realise the aid was vital in the
darkest hours of 1942 when defeat was still on the cards.
     "In the early days we survived pretty much on what we received
from the convoys," acknowledged Murmansk regional governor Yevgeny
Komarov.
     Murmansk had to wait until former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev
came to power in 1985 before it was finally awarded the title of Hero
City, a decoration which other cities had received more than 40 years
earlier.
     "Before, we thought Lend Lease was just oranges, tinned ham and
chocolate. Only now do we realise arms were sent as well," said Nina
Korolyova of the Northern Fleet Museum in Murmansk.
     But the museum itself is still very Soviet in character,
stressing the role played by the fleet in defending the convoys and
highlighting the disaster of PQ-17.
     In the last three years the local history museum has done a
little better, adding a small cabinet containing books about the
convoys but giving no specific information.
     An old inscription elsewhere in the museum informs visitors that
the aid shipped under Lend-Lease amounted to $10 billion. Just below
is the figure the former Soviet Union says it paid to win the war --
$485 billion.
     The British veterans hardly seem to mind about Moscow's snub.
Indeed, some seem happier burying their wartime memories.
     "There's a danger people could accuse ex-servicemen of trying to
glorify the war. But we do not see any glory in war," said Allan.
     "There was a lot of monotony, a lot of boredom, a lot of wasted
time and lives. It's a pretty futile occupation -- there are no
winners."

=====



--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 11:54:23 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP M5A1 Stuart tank

Mark--I can place you in touch with a man who owns a real one in
Chicago--I think he can answer your questions--or go look at his and
then tell you the answers.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:36:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P38  CBI & Other

    Hello, Steve!

Great post and I would like to comment on the one below.

>         4.  There was a war on, and you certainly don't want the folks back
>      home to think your losing, do you?  I don't have the name at the tip
>      of my tongue, but didn't an AAF B-17 pilot get a posthumous CMH for
>      sinking a Japanese "Battleship" off the Phillipines in 1941 when in
>      fact he had attacked an American submarine which simply dove to escape
>      the bombs?  Every army has got to have some heros, even if they make
>      them up themselves.

    You are thinking of Colin Kelly and you are right on about that.
I just wanted to add that the same "face" was put on the Ploesti raid
of 1943 in which 5 MoH's were awarded, the most awarded for a single
action in WWII. The raid itself was a disaster but the fact that made
it "acceptable" if you will lies in the fact that so many were
awarded for this mission. I second your final comments wholeheartedly.

    Thanks for allowing me to make a comment.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:02:30 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Italian marines in WW2

        OK, here goes with the final installment of an unintended trilogy on
the elite Italian footsoldiers of WW2.  I have to start off with a caveat: I
have not been able to find nearly as much information about the Italian marines
as I have on other elite branches of the Italian armed forces.  For Ben Frank,
this means unfortunately that I don't have any information on the unit you
named.  In fact, I'm kind of hoping someone else out there can fill me in on
anything I might have missed.  I even put the question out to the list when I
first signed on, and did get a very helpful synopsis of organization etc for
the proposed Malta operation from Joe Barone (which he got from an issue of
Command magazine and which I'm shamelessly reproducing as part of this post)
and the address of a possible contact on the subject in Italy which
procrastination and other projects have so far prevented me from following up.
I think the dearth of easily-accessible English-language info on this topic
(I'd be happy to plow through Italian-- I did for the alpini post) may be due
in the first place to the tiny size of the unit in question-- the Italian
marine "corps" was in fact only one regiment-- and partly because from what I
gather they did not participate in much actual combat prior to the middle of
1942.  If Greg or someone else out there has additions, corrections, etc, I
would hope this post can provide a forum for me to learn more as well.

        Marine infantry played a prominent role in the war efforts of several
major powers.  The U.S. Marine Corps set the standard for naval infantry in the
Second World War, by 1945 constituting a semi-autonomous army of six full
divisions (each at least 16-18,000 men at full strength).  The acheivements of
the U.S. Marines spoke for themselves, and were a strong argument in favor of
the Corps' post-war status as a quasi-independent fourth branch of the American
military.  The Soviet and Japanese forces also employed large numbers of naval
infantry, although both nations lacked both the degree of autonomy and the
organizational heirarchy of the U.S. Marines (in both cases they were organized
for tactical purposes only, in units of brigade size or less, which lacked a
central command and were placed under the local, non-marine Army or Navy
commanders).  Still, in the two major areas of employment alone-- the Murmansk
region in the Arctic north and the Black Sea peninsula of the Crimea in the
south-- some 33,000 Soviet marines saw action, and these Russian
sailor/footsoldiers were used in many other places from the appraoches to
Leningrad to Novorossiyisk.  During the war the Soviets carried out 114
amphibious operations, in which over 300,000 men were landed, and although many
of these troops were regular Army the Soviet marines participated in a large
percentage of these undertakings.  The Japanese marine unit was small, a
"special naval landing force" of 700-1500 men, but the Imperial Japanese Navy
employed a great number of these detachments.  They fought in Shanghai and
other parts of China; in Indonesia; at Wake Island; at Rabaul; on Guadalcanal,
New Georgia, and Tarawa; in defense of the Marianas and the Phillipines; and
on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.  There was even an airborne "special naval landing
force," which carried out two parachute drops in Indonesia in early '42.
        Compared to efforts on this scale, the Italian marine force was so
small as to be barely worthy of mention.  The Italians didn't have a marine
"corps," they had a marine regiment-- the San Marco Regiment.  And it wasn't
even a particularly strong regiment, numerically speaking.  At no time during
the period 1940-43 did the San Marco Regiment ever have much more than 2,500
fighting men, nor was it able during that time to field more than two
conventional battalions for land fighting.
        However, though it may have been small, the Italian marine force was
rich in tradition.  The San Marco Regiment traced its origins back to the
shipboard infantry of Venice, back to the glory days when that independent
city-state had been a regional power (especially economically).  San Marco
(St. Mark) was the patron saint of both Venice and the Italian marines, and the
"Lion of St. Mark," the emblem of Venice for centuries, was also the
distinctive insignia of the San Marco Regiment.  They wore it on their sleeve--
literally-- a rectangular crimson patch bearing the highly-stylized gold lion
just above the cuff, a mark of distinction equal to the bersaglieri cockerel
plume or the black eagle feather worn on Alpini hats and helmets.
        The small size and uniqueness of the San Marco Regt did have one
advantage, in that the Italian marines could afford to be highly selective in
terms of personnel.  Their ranks were filled with motivated, highly disciplined
professionals, specially trained and in peak physical condition.  In 1940 the
San Marco Regt consisted of two battalions, each organized for independent
operations.  The Italian marine battalions were fairly strong numerically,
about 1,000 men each, made up of three rifle companies, an mortar company (with
six 81-mm mortars), and an antitank company (with four 47-mm guns).  That was
as much heavy weapons support as was normally found in a full regiment in the
Italian Army (and as late as the second half of 1942 many units actually
engaged in combat still had no antitank weapons whatsoever organically at the
regimental level), so the marines were at least a little better supported in
this respect than their Army colleagues.  The marine battalions also had a
rather high proportion of men trained in demolitions and explosives work,
enough to form ad hoc commando squads of demolition experts if the occasion
required.
        The average Italian marine carried the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (from
the few pictures I've seen it seems the M38 short rifle was the Regina Marina's
preferred version).  Early in the war even sergeants carried bolt-action
rifles, but later the 9-mm Beretta M38 and M38/42 submachineguns became very
popular among the marines (whose elite status no doubt facilitated access to
these weapons), and not only officers and nco's but even regular privates were
sometimes armed with them.  I've also seen a picture of a marine sergeant-major
carrying a dagger at his waist (in addition to bayonet), but don't know if this
was commonplace, or if it was ceremonial or intended to actually be used in
combat.
        The marine officers' uniform was identical to the standard Army
uniform, except for the footwear, the hob-nailed short Army boots being
replaced by an ankle-length, lace-up black leather Navy type, and the insignia.
As in the U.S. Marines, the Italian ranks corresponded to the Army rather than
Navy system (this was also true for shore-based naval engineering personnel).
Enlisted marines wore a hybrid, which was (except for the shoes, as described
above) identical to the Army from the waste down (i.e., baggy grey-green
pantaloons and canvas wrap-around "puttee" leggings), but with a v-necked Navy
type "square rig" jersey with a flap in back, only in grey-green.  Under the
jersey the men wore a long-sleeved grey turtleneck shirt (or in winter
sweater).  All ranks wore the Navy steel helmet, virtually identical to the
Army model except for a gold anchor painted on the front (marines tended to
paint over the anchor before going into combat-- not too tough to understand
why they'd be reluctant to go running around a battlefield with such a nice
target painted in the middle of their foreheads).  In North Africa, where the
Italian marines did most of their fighting, they were issued a tropical uniform
identical to the above, but made of a lighter-weight, light brown khaki drill.
Ironically, the grey-green canvas webbing equipment, consisting of two ammo
pouches, belt, suspenders, and bayonet scabbard, was made under license in
Britain before the war.
        Serious Italian preparation for amphibious operations in the war did
not begin until the Greek campaign.  The Italian Navy was not officially
informed of the decision to invade Greece until October 16, 1940, ten days
before the initially scheduled start date.  The Regina Marina had not been
invited to the meeting at the Palazzo Venezia the day before, where the final
decision was apparently taken (the Air Force had no official representative
either, although Count Ciano, attending in his capacity as Foreign Minister,
was also an officer in the Regia Aeronautica; four serving general officers of
the Army were present-- Marshal Badoglio, the armed forces chief-of-staff;
Soddu, the Undersecretary for War; Roatta, acting chief-of-staff of the Army;
and Visconti-Prasca, Italian commander in Albania).  Only on Oct. 22nd was the
Navy informed that the operation was to include an amphibious landing on the
island of Corfu.  The Navy immediately formed a "Special Naval Force" (later
the 12th Naval Division), under Admiral Vittorio Tur, the Regina Marina's
ranking expert on amphibious warfare.  The two largest warships assigned to
Tur's unit (each about 3,100 tons) were the BARI and the TARANTO, old
German-built light cruisers acquired by Italy after WW1.  Though too outmoded
for conventional fleet operations, they were considered useful for artillery
support (BARI mounted eight 150-mm guns, TARANTO seven) and for service as
floating headquarters (BARI subsequently became Tur's flagship).  The naval
unit also included two fleet-size destroyers, three smaller destroyer escorts,
four of the little wooden MAS-type torpedo boats, and three SESIA-class landing
ships, the latter specially outfitted for the support of amphibious operations.
Four convoys were hastily organized to carry the Bari infantry division to
Corfu.
        Severe weather forced the postponement of the entire Greek operation
for two days (to Oct 28), and the Corfu landings for two more.  Finally the
group set sail on the night of Oct 31, but while at sea the convoy was
re-routed to Valona, as the Bari Division was urgently needed on the main front
in Albania, and the landings were cancelled as abruptly as they had been
ordered.  I mention this because the San Marco Regiment was soon afterward
attached to Admiral Tur's force.  One effect of this transfer was to intensify
the training of the Italian marines for true amphibious warfare.  Actually, the
main role of the San Marco Regt had previously been to serve as a reliable
ground force to secure important forward naval bases against potential enemy
raids, although the marines were also trained for landing operations.  Under
Tur, however, a group of 500 "nuotatori" or "swimmers" was raised and trained.
These were specialists, trained for ocean swimming, demolitions, and beach
assault.  They were supposed to swim in to their target beaches in small
groups, with weapons and explosives carried in waterproof pouches, to take out
enemy strong points in commando fashion in advance of the main landings.
        A detachment of the San Marco Regiment had been earmarked for the
occupation of the Allied naval base at Suda Bay during the Axis invasion of
Crete in May 1941.  However, this group was diverted to Maleme in an attempt to
reinforce the Germans there, with the outcome of the fight still in the
balance.  The Italian marines joined the convoy of 18 small vessels escorted by
the destroyer escort LUPO.  On the night of May 31, when virtually in sight of
their destination, they were intercepted by three British cruisers and four
destroyers.  Although the LUPO fought bravely, and managed to escape after
steaming straight through the British formation, the convoy was completely
wiped out, and most of the marines and their equipment were lost.

Time considerations are going to force me to break this into two parts.
That about covers the background, organization, and equipment.  I'll post
something about the actual battle history 1942-45 later today.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:36:04 +1000
From:    Benjamin Daniel Natali <bdn320@ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Unsub

I am going away for a while and I am having trouble unsubscribing can
someone tell me the Email address of the administrator of the group so they
can take me off the list.

Thanks
Ben
at
bdn320@cscgpo.anu.edu.au

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 09:30:03 +1100
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Dams and Defence

  On the list the subjects of Hiroshima, Dresden etc and decisions that cost
large amounts of life either friendly or enemy pop up at regular intervals so I
was interested to read of one that I hadn't heard discussed. In an article in
an old New Scientist on dams and their potential as a weapon when busted
mention is made of their use through history and the one that attracted my
attention was in the Sino- Japanese war.Chinese generals under Chiang Kai-shek
breached adyke of the yellow river to halt advancing Japanese forces. This
innundated an area the size of Denmark and moved the estuary by 500km. The cost
in chinese life was estimated between 250k to 1 million and most probably the
single most deadly act of the war only exceeded perhaps by the holocaust though
this was self inflicted slaughter.
  The article goes on to mention how many dams are not being built which would
aid the countries and communities involved because of the defence
possibilities. This seems somewhat a paradox or two mutually exclusive
principles that causes my civilian mind some turmoil. You cant have progress
because the defenders of that progress say it may be a liability.I pictured
Hitler fuming at his underlyings after the dam busters raid as they tended
their excuses " We tried to tell
you that building all those dams to supply the Ruhr would cost us the
war"

Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:19:33 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Italian marines in WW2 (part 2)

        The San Marco Regiment spent the first half of 1942 rehearsing for its
role in "Operation Hercules," the proposed Axis landings on Malta.  A leading
part was to be played by the "swimmer" units, with ten 30-man teams slated to
lead the way, coming in silently ahead of the first wave to neutralize
strongpoints on the main landing beaches.  The entire marine regiment was to
participate in the operation.  Marshal Cavallero, the chief-of-staff of the
Italian armed forces (he replaced Badoglio in December 1940), was one of the
originators of the plan to take Malta by a combined airborne and amphibious
landing.  It would be a primarily Italian operation, with (apart from the
marines) the Folgore parachute division and the two infantry divisions of the
Italian 7th Corps (who had been specially trained for this task) providing the
bulk of the ground troops.  Admiral Tur, who was in command of the naval
aspects of the operation, was confidant that it could be carried out
successfully, although many Italian officers (including, for example, General
Carboni, commander of the first-wave Friuli Division) believed it would be a
costly failure, and were in some cases (for example, Carboni's) very vocal in
their opposition.  Cavallero's strategic conception stressed that it was
imperative to take out Malta before attempting any further large-scale
offensive operations in North Africa (he was even against Rommel's riposte that
recaptured Benghazi in Jan '42).  The elimination of Malta would (in
Cavallero's opinion) allow the Axis to stockpile sufficient fuel and other
supplies to undertake a serious invasion of Egypt.  Rommel, however, after his
success at Gazala and the subsequent recapture of Tobruk (June '42), pressed
for an immediate exploitation of his victory, arguing that he had to strike
quickly while the British were still weak and in disarray.   By taking his case
to the highest German and Italian political circles (i.e., going directly or by
emissary to Hitler and Mussolini) Rommel was able to get backing for his own
plan at the expense of "Hercules," which could not succeed without German
support, especially in terms of air units.  Cavallero hurt his own case by
proposing a postponement until the Folgore Division completed its training
(under German instructors).  Since there were not enough resources available to
carry out both plans simultaneously, the Malta invasion was first postponed,
and then, as Rommel swept into Egypt, cancelled completely.  Thus another
large-scale Italian amphibious landing, in which the Italian marines might have
had a chance to demonstrate their specialty, was scrapped.
        With "Hercules" shelved, one battalion of the San Marco Regt was sent
into Tobruk as garrison troops.  However, they did not entirely confine
themselves to a passive role.  On August 29th a party of 14 demolitions experts
from the San Marco battalion at Tobruk were landed by an MAS boat behind the
British lines.  Their mission, in support of Rommel's last Egyptian offensive
(which culminated in the battle of Alam Halfa), was to blow up both the rail
line and the aqueduct running from Alexandria.  Although the Italian marines
completed this mission successfully their efforts proved of little help to
Rommel's attack, which made scant headway before being called off.
        On the night of September 14th the British launched a complex,
large-scale commando raid on Tobruk.  One group of about 500 men came ashore
near the shore batteries, which they unsuccessfully attacked.  The San Marco
marines, reacting quickly, were directed against this group (something you
missed if you saw the movie "Tobruk"-- in the film version it was German
troops) and managed to contain the British force, virtually all of whom were
either killed fighting or captured.  The Allied mission wound up a costly
failure.
        The Allied "Torch" landings in French North Africa brought the San
Marco Regt back into the center of things.  One result of the landings was the
Axis decision to occupy Corsica.  Admiral Tur's force was once again mobilized
for the task.  With the BARI, six destroyer escorts, 16 large transports, and
123 smaller craft acting either as escorts or makeshift transports (carrying a
total of 12,000 men from the Italian 7th Corps), Tur set sail for the main
Corsican port of Bastia on November 11th.  He arrived in the late afternoon,
and after personal negotiations between Tur and the local French commander, was
allowed to land his force without resistance.  This was done overnight, and
Tur's ships returned to Italy November 13th.  Meanwhile, a detachment of the
San Marco marines were carried to Ajaccio by the destroyer PIGAFETTA, where
they landed and occupied the port without incident.
        Shortly afterward, both battalions of the San Marco Regt were
dispatched to Tunisia, where they were among the first Italian reinforcements
to the theatre.  Initially their role was to secure the main ports of Tunis and
Bizerte, but at least one battalion eventually saw considerable combat on the
front lines.  On December 2nd a party of Italian marines landed on the island
of Galite, just off the coast roughly midway between Bizerte and Bone, in order
to establish a base for special assault units of the Italian Navy.  Again, this
small operation was carried off without difficulty (although the subsequent
naval operations from Galite bore little fruit).  The San Marco Regiment's
Grado Battalion fought valiantly in Tunisia, attached for a time to the Afrika
Korps, fighting in the Enfidaville line, and then in late April '43 transferred
to the northwest corner of the front, where it joined the battalion-sized
remnants of the 5th and 10th Bersaglieri Regts.  In this sector, where about
one-fourth of the troops were Italian, the Americans made only very slow and
grudging progress in their final offensive, until the Axis forces began to run
out of ammunition after the first week of May.
        The San Marco Regiment was resurrected by the pro-Allied Italian forces
after the armistice of September 1943.  It spent the winter of '43-'44
undergoing intensive training in Allied operational and combat methods, being
brought into the front lines near Venafro, on the hotly-contested Cassino
sector of the front, on April 9th, 1944, as part of the British 13th Corps.
In June '44 the San Marco Regt was transferred to the rugged Abruzzi mountains,
participating in the battles to clear the Chieti area.  In July the Italian
marines were reinforced by a newly-raised third battalion, and put under
command of the reconstructed Nembo parachute division (its predecessor of the
same name, German-trained, had been one of the few Italian units to voluntarily
join the Germans at the time of the Italian surrender).  Still part of the
British 8th Army, it now operated on the Adriatic coast in the Macerata area,
and assisted in offensive operations in that sector resulting in the liberation
of Urbino.  Finally, in early September 1944, after five months of continuous
front-line service (and anyone who has read about the Italian campaign will
know of the grueling nature of the fighting that characterized this theatre--
an unpublicized, unrewarding, unrelenting exercize of crossing the next river,
and winkling the deeply dug-in Germans out of the next hill, paying a price for
every small advance, only to start the process all over again) the San Marco
Regiment was withdrawn for rest and replenishment.
        They re-entered the lines in February 1945, now part of the
second-generation Folgore Division, operating in Romagna.  The San Marco
Regiment remained in the front lines till fighting in Italy ended in early May.
The highlight of this portion of their service was the capture of Tassignano, a
centuries-old fortress located at the top of a steep 1,000-foot peak, which the
Germans had heavily fortified and turned into a key strongpoint in their line.
The San Marco marines suffered 15% casualties in taking this position.
        I should also mention that the pro-German RSI forces apparently raised
their own marine units.  They too wore the "Lion of St Mark" badge, but on the
lapel of their double-breasted, collar-less Army tunics (in 1943 many marines
on both sides of the lines switched to a version of the Army paratroopers
uniform, complete with long pants and jump boots).  I have no further
information about the RSI marines, except that they existed.  My guess is that
they were mostly employed on security and anti-partisan tasks, like the
majority of RSI forces.
        The above comprises a summary of virtually every reference I have been
able to locate thus far regarding the San Marco Regiment.  I'd be greatly
indebted if anyone else on the list would be able to add (or elaborate on)
anything, so please chime in with any info, no matter how small.  I hope this
proves helpful to anyone interested.   Now I'll shut up about the Italians for
a while and go back to reading about my Hungarians.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 19:55:25 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  P38 in CBI & Other

>      Checking the records of the heavy and medium bomber squadrons of the
>      8th AF, and the ground interdiction squadrons of the 12th and 15th AF
>      (among others) to determine the number of aircraft lost v/s the claims
>      for enemy a/c killed would probably identify the discrepancy, but to
>      what purpose?  These aircraft weren't designed or deployed to destroy
>      enemy a/c so it won't be any news that they weren't very successful in
>      the role.
>      [...]
>      I personally don't see that the numbers, by themselves, indicate that
>      something is being hidden/ignored.  You have got to look at the total
>      picture, including the units assigned mission.

Steve,

thanks for your answer. Did the allies had an edge in Fighter
combat ? One report of the North American Committee for Aeronautics says :
"While for the July-August-September 1944 period the ratio of reciprocal losses
was 1 for 1 -most allied losses being fighters, and a small proportion of
bombers- the losses ratio from 22 February to 26 March '45 was of 1 to 7.5
, this time with a large proportion of four-engined aircraft. Those figures speak
for themselves."
(Sorry, I was wrong for the 3.6, it was 7.5).
Looking at the big picture is what I would like to be able to do.
What were the total American/British fighter losses on the Western Front ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 20:10:45 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

> Hitler Moves East, 1941-1943 by Paul Carrell

What do you think of Paul Carrell's books ? Are they german-biased or really
fair ? Given their price, I have always hesitated to buy them.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 21:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 8 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 8 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): An 8-aircraft shipping sweep is cancelled due
to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In S China and N French Indochina 2
B-25s hit railroad tracks at Lohochai, China and 2 others hit tracks at Duc
Tho, French Indochina. 4 P-51s blast road machinery near Muse, Burma. 15
B-25s, 13 P-40s and P-51s pound storage buildings, villages, and other
targets of opportunity throughout the Mangshih, China area.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 80+ P-47s support ground
forces in the Mawlu area, bomb personnel, supplies, and communications
facilities at Tunhong, Chaungdauk, and Kutkai, gun positions at Hsipaw, the
Man Hpa town area, Kawlin Airfield and targets of opportunity along the
Kawlin-Pinwe railroad; 8 B-25s knock out the Bawgyo railroad bridge. 270+
transports fly sorties to forward areas. In India, a detachment of the 5th
Fighter Squadron (Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, begins operating from
Fenny with P-47s; the detachment of the 6th Fighter Squadron (Commando), 1st
Air Commando Group, operating from Cox's Bazar return to base at Asanol.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The transfer of training functions
from VIII Air Force Composite Command to combat groups is completed; the VIII
AF Composite Command ceases to function as personnel are attached to the Air
Disarmament Command (Provisional) by the US Strategic Air Forces in Europe
(USSTAF). The airfield at Denain/Prouvy, France is assigned to HQ Eighth AF;
this is the first step in establishing an VIII Air Force Services Command
Service Center on the European continent so that Eighth AF can service and
administer its own aircraft and personnel in the area.
  2 missions are flown.
  Mission 705: 690 bombers and 890 fighters are dispatched to make a PFF
attack on Merseburg oil plants and Rheine marshalling yard; bad weather causes
the recall of 350+ bombers; 3 bombers and 11 fighters are lost:
  1. 267 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Leuna oil plant at Merseburg (193);
2 others hit a target of opportunity; 9 of 12 B-17s fly as a screening force;
3 B-17s are lost and 85 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 27 MIA. Escorting are
752 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 2-0-1 aircraft in the air and 0-0-1 on the
ground; 2 P-47s and 9 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 2 P-51s are damaged
beyond repair.
  2. 145 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Rheine marshalling yard (77);
targets of opportunity are Enschede (8), Nordhorn Canal (8) and other (1); 15
B-24s are damaged. Escorting are 36 of 37 P-47s without loss.
  3. 266 B-17s dispatched to hit the Leuna oil plant at Merseburg are
recalled due to weather.
  11 of 14 P-51s fly a scouting missions without loss.
  Mission 706: 5 B-17s and 12 B-24s (2 abort) drop leaflets in France, the
Netherlands and Germany during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather cancels operations against
military depots and troop concentrations in Germany, and fortified positions
in France; a mission against rail bridges in Germany is recalled due to
weather; fighters fly escort, attack railroads, bridges, factories, supply
dumps, and command posts; the IX and XIX Tactical Air Commands support the US
28th Infantry Division in the Schmidt, Germany area (V Corps begins
withdrawing the Kall River bridgehead) and Third Army elements start an
assault on enemy fortifications in the Metz, France area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Yugoslavia, 34 B-24s bomb
troop concentrations at Mitrovica, Prijepolje, and Sjenica.  Heavy cloud over
the targets forces 70+ others to abort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers strike
the rail line in the Brenner Pass and other lines running into Italy from the
NE and bomb bridges in the C and W Po Valley, damaging several and destroying
the bridge at Mantua; fighters and fighter-bombers hit communications in the
Bologna area, but concentrate most of their operations against bridges and
rail lines in the Parma area in an effort to disrupt battle area supply lines.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island hit shipping at Chichi
Jima and Haha Jima Islands. A single B-24 on a snooper mission bombs Iwo Jima
Island during the night of 8/9 Nov. P-47s attempt a fighter sweep over Pagan
Island but must abort because of bad weather.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 17 XXI Bomber Command B-29s are airborne
against the airfield on Iwo Jima Island; 6 manage to bomb through a hole in
the cloud cover; others fail to bomb the target; enemy aircraft drop
phosphorus bombs on the formations, damaging 1 B-29; 1 B-29 ditches, the
first aircraft lost by the XXI Bomber Command on a combat mission.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s again hit
Alicante Airfield on Negros Island. On Celebes Island, B-25s bomb Langoan
Airfield while P-38s on sweeps over the Kendari area hit parked aircraft,
shipping, the nickel mine, and other targets of opportunity. On Halmahera
Island, B-25s attack Kaoe and Hate Tabako Airfield while others hit targets
of opportunity on Ceram Island. The 12th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter
Group, based at Sansapor, New Guinea, begins operating from Morotai Island
with P-38s. The 424th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), that has been operating from Noemfoor Island with B-24s, returns to
base on Wakde Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

08/0206Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 21:30:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: P-47/P-51

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Steve L. New wrote:
 >
 >                 P47 Thunderbolt         15683
 >                 P51 Mustang             15686

Steve, please list a source for these numbers.  According to THE ARMY AIR
FORCES IN WORLD WAR II, Volume Six, MEN AND PLANES, by Wesley Frank Craven
and James Lea Cate, acceptances by model were:

Republic P-47 Thunderbolt...15,579
N. American P-51 Mustang....14,490



-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:04:53 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Dear Arnaud,

Paul Carrell is the nom de plume of a former ranking official in Goebbels
Ministry of Propaganda, whose name escapes me at the moment. His books
are a good example of the interpretation of the war the Germans were
trying to establish in the 1950s and 1960s. They are considered biased
by most scholars in the field, but they are also good on some detail.
If you are building a specialized Eastern Front collection, they may be
worth the money ($35 or so? I got mine years ago, and don't know the
current price), but be careful in reading them. If you want accuracy,
although in a drier read, get Earl Ziemke's volumes or Albert Seaton's
work instead.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Lockheed Model 18

Recently, Steve L. New wrote about seeing photographs of Lockheed Model 18s
(USAAF C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66) in Japanese markings during WWII.
Sorry Steve, my research indicates that the Japanese never had Model 18s
unless they captured a few.  Here is what I found.

In 1938, 20 Lockheed Model 14s, and the license production rights, were
acquired by Tachikawa Hikoki KK (Tachikawa Aeroplane Co Ltd).  (The Model
14 was later converted to the famous Lockheed Hudson or A-29 or PBO in
USAAF and USN service respectively.)  I have sources that state that these
Model 14s were Model 14-WG3Bs or 14-G3Bs; regardless, the msn of these
aircraft were 1426-1428, 1433-1438, 1445, 1446, 1452 and 1455-1462.
Tachikawa Hikoki KK was acting as an agent for Nihon Koku KK (Japan Air
Transport Co Ltd); the airline also acquired another 10 Model 14-WG3Bs.
All of these aircraft were delivered between Jun and Sep 38 and were used
on routes between Japan and China.  After the war began, these aircraft
were given the Allied Code Name TOBY.  These aircraft wre equipped with
two Wright Cyclone GR-1820-G3Bs rated at 900 hp for take-off and 840 hp at
8,000 feet (2,438 m).

In 1939, Tachikawa exercised it's license rights and submitted a proposal
to the Japanese Army Air Force to build a modified Model 14 powered by
two 900 hp Mitsubishi Ha-26-I (Army Type 99 radial Model 1) 14-cylinder
radial engines.  A total of 119 of these aircraft, designated Army Type LO
Transport, were built by Kawasaki Kokuki Kogyo KK (55 machines built 1940-
41) and Tachikawa (64 aircraft built 1940-42) and were given the Allied
Code Name THELMA.

In Sep 39, while Kawasaki was gearing up to build the modified Model 14
described above, the JAAF Air Headquarters told Kawasaki to design an
improved version of the aircraft.  Designated Ki-56, the emphasis was on
improved take-off characteristics and a larger cargo capacity.  Without
assistance from Lockheed, the Kawasaki engineers lenghtened the fuselage by
4 feet 11 inches (1.5 m) vs 5 feet 6 inches (1.58 m) on the Model 18; they
also redesigned the Fowler flaps to increase efficiency, the tailplanes
were retained in the original location of the Model 14 atop the rear
fuselage, the Ki-56 had a large cargo door, with a small passenger door,
on the port side of the fuselage, the weight of the wing structure was
reduced, and it was powered by two 950 hp Nakajima Ha-25 (Army Type 99)
radial engines.  The first two production aircraft were completed in Nov
40, and after further testing, production was ordered and 119 additional
Army Type 1 Freight Transports were delivered between Aug 41 and Sep 43.
This aircraft received the Allied Code Name THALIA.

Rather than the Lockheed Model 18, Steve is probably talking about the very
similar Kawasaki Ki-56 Army Type 1 Freight Transport.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:57:18 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dams and Defence

Dear John,

Would you have a citation on that New Scientist article, or at least a
rough date? I have heard it said that one reason Sadat sought peace
with Israel was the realization that if the Israeli Air Force could
breach the Aswan Dam, the resulting flood from Lake Nasser would scour
the lower Nile valley, possibly killing 90%+ of the Egyptian population.
Is there anything in the article to support this?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Nov 1994 23:04:11 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Query: Zero name

Dear Emmanuel,

Thanks for the correction and the additional comments. I was working off the
top of my head, and wasn't sure how many companies built for the Navy.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Nov 1994 to 7 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Status: OR

There are 22 messages totalling 1085 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 11-08-94
  2. WEAP: Lockheed 18 (2)
  3. P38 in CBI & Other
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-NOV-1944
  5. Comet and Andree de Jongh (3)
  6. Eastern Front Books (3)
  7. Textbooks
  8. Dams and Defence
  9. Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 1 (2)
 10. WHAT IF:  1943 Plot to Kill Hitler (2)
 11. BOOKS-Okinawa
 12. WHAT IF: 1943 Plot to Kill Hitler
 13. WEAP M5A1 Stuart tank
 14. WEAP: BB-64??
 15. [INF] USAAF 9 NOV 44

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/08 Wed.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine GROWLER (SS-215), unknown cause, west of
              Philippine Islands.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Torpedo boat SAGI, by submarine GUNNEL (SS-253),
              Philippine Islands area,
              16 d. 09'N., 118 d. 56'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:49:39 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: Lockheed 18

     > Recently, Steve L. New wrote about seeing photographs of Lockheed
     > Model 18s (USAAF C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66) in Japanese
     > markings during WWII. Sorry Steve, my research indicates that the
     > Japanese never had Model 18s unless they captured a few.  Here is
     > what I found.



     > Jack McKillop


     Jack,

     Good post, great information, but it wasn't I who proposed Japanese
     built Lockheeds.  The closest I got to that was to discuss the
     Japanese captured P-40s kept in the Home Islands.

     Steve L. New

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:07:30 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: P38 in CBI & Other

     > Looking at the big picture is what I would like to be able to do.
     > What were the total American/British fighter losses on the Western
     > Front ?

     > Arnaud.


     Arnaud,

     I'll look, but to be honest I don't know if I have those figures.
     It's not a subject I've spent a lot of time on.  Hopefully someone on
     the list has this and can provide it.


     Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:26:33 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-NOV-1944

On 09-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the US 3rd Army sector, the XX Corps launches a heavy
attack to surround and capture Metz. The Moselle is reached by the 90th
Division in the vacinity of Malling and by the 95th Division at Uckange. Firm
bridgeheads are established in both areas. South of Metz, the 5th Division
crosses the river Seille. In the US XII Corps sector, the 35th Division after
reaching the village of Delme, continues on towards Chateau-Salins.

Italian Front - The Germans are forced out of Forli by the 4th Division.

Philippines (Leyte) - Japanese reinforcements land at Ormoc, but a
surprise air attack forces the Japanese convoy to withdraw before
ammunition and supplies come ashore. In the northwest of the island, the
US X Corps continues to advance slowly towards Ormoc. Torrential rains
continue to hamper operations.

The Homefront
-------------
Nobel Prizes - Four Nobel prizes have been awarded. Literature - Dr. Johannes
V. Jensen, Copenhagen, Denmark, author of "The Long Journey" and "The Fall of
the King". Physics - Dr. Isidor Isaac Rabi, Columbia University, for research
in the resonance method of registering the magnetic movement of atomic
particles. Physics - Dr. Otto Stern, Carnegie Institute of Technology, for
developing the molecular ray method of detecting the magnetic momemtum of
protons. Chemistry - Dr. Georg Hevesy, Stockholm, for his work in the use of
isotopes as indicaters in studying chemical processes.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:50:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Comet and Andree de Jongh

Hello, Mary!

Here goes with the info I found:

Two escape networks in Belgium deserve special mention: "Comet" and
"Pat O'Leary". The latter was set up by Dr. Albert-Marie Guerisse. He
was a Belgian Army surgeon who escaped at Dunkirk, returned to France
to continue the struggle, was captured and escaped shortly after the
armistice. Returning to France on a secret mission, he was captured,
but escaped again, and set up one of the most important escape
networks before being captured a third time and deported to Germany.

"Comet" was formed by a girl, Andree de Jongh who had often heard the
story of Edith Cavell's heroism in WWI from her father, a headmaster
at Schaerbeek in the suburbs of Brussels. From strenuous personal
effort, she built up an escape route from Belgium to Bilbao. She took
personal charge of her "children", crossing the Somme (often
swimming, if necessary), taking the train to Bayonne and into Spain
by a hazardous mountain crossing. Andree de Jongh was also arrested
and deported. "Comet" paid a heavy price, but its efforts enabled
about 1000 airmen of the RAF and the USAAF to escape and fight again.

Hope this helps, and has been of interest. If you have any further
question, please let me know.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:04:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with another installment on books I have in my collection
dealing with "Barbarossa" or related to action on the Eastern Front:

                           Paperback

1. Epic: The Story of the Waffen-SS by Leon DeGrelle
2. Germany's Eastern Front Allies, 1941,1945 by Peter Abbott
3. The Waffen-SS by Martin Windrow
4. Foreign Volunteers of the Wehrmacht by Carlos Cabellero Jarado
5. Hitler's Teutonic Knights: SS Panzers in Action by Bruce Quarrie
6. Hitler's Samurai: The Waffen-SS in Action by Bruce Quarrie
7. Waffen-SS by Brian Davis
8. The Forgotton Holocaust: The Poles under German Occupation, 1939-
1944 by Richard Lukas
9. The Einsatzgruppen Reports: Selections from the Dispatches of the
Nazi Deaths Head Squadrons' Campaign Against the Jews in Occupied
Territories of the Soviet Union, July 1941-January 1943
10. Hitler as Military Commander by John Strawson

                     German Publications (Paper)

11. Die Geschichte der Wlassow-Armee by Joachim Hoffmann
12. Die Ostlegionen, 1941-1943 by Joachim Hoffman

BTW, I found one more book, I inadvertently overlooked which deals
with

                          Normandy

Bodyguard of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown


This will conclude the paperbacks I have on the Eastern Front.
Tomorrow, or later on today, I will begin posting the hardcover
editions I possess.

Hope this has been of interest. More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:23:28 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Lockheed 18

In message <9411081152.AA22874@umnstat.stat.umn.edu> World War II Discussion
List writes:
>      > Recently, Steve L. New wrote about seeing photographs of Lockheed
>      > Model 18s (USAAF C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66) in Japanese
>      > markings during WWII. Sorry Steve, my research indicates that the
>      > Japanese never had Model 18s unless they captured a few.  Here is
>      > what I found.
>
>
>
>      > Jack McKillop
>
>
>      Jack,
>
>      Good post, great information, but it wasn't I who proposed Japanese
>      built Lockheeds.  The closest I got to that was to discuss the
>      Japanese captured P-40s kept in the Home Islands.
>
>      Steve L. New

Here's the story on Lockheed Model 14's (and subsequently 18's ... SORTA)
from Robert Mikesh's book, Japanese Aircraft Code Names & Designators.
(I didn't see the earlier post, so I hope I'm not repeating something :-).

THALIA, Kawasaki Army Type 1 Freight Transport (Ki-56).

After exporting a number of Lockheed 14s to Japan in 1938, Lockheed sold
manufacturing rights for this transport to Japan.  Built in Japan by
Kawanishi, that company later improved upon the design to be used as a
military transport by lengthenining the fuselage.  Kawasaki was unaware
that Lockheed had done the same lengthening of the fuselage (an additional
7-inches to that of the Japanese) in making the Lockheed 18 Lodestar.  This
new Japanese version went into production in 1940 with an enlarged cargo
door, replacing the passenger door on the left side.

As a Japanese Army Type 1 Freight Transport, it was given the code name
THALIA when Allied air intelligence learned of the existence of this
airplane.  THALIA was often confused with the shorter version of the Lockheed
14 that was code named THELMA.



Basically, it's true that the Model 18 was not built directly under license.
However, the distinction between the modified Model 14 and the Lodestar were
so slight, mostly in length, that there was little to differentiate between
them.  It was Lockheed itself who essentially considered the THALIA a Model
18 clone even though it was independently created.

So the question of Lodestars in Japanese service generally comes down to the
question of whether its a pure aircraft (it is not) or one so close that it
qualifies (and at the time, it did to Lockheed... Or so it's been related to
me...)


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:34:30 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Textbooks

       Hello everyone!

        Before I do anything, I'd like to thank those of you who sent
  messages regarding the Comet Line. I will be keeping everyone updated
  on that project.

       My new puzzle involves finding a list of textbooks that provide a
  a comprehensive overview of World War II. If anyone has had or taught a
  a course on this subject, I would appreciate some information regarding
  the topics that were covered. I am looking for materials appropiate for
  an undergraduate history class.

      Thanks, again!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:03:02 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dams and Defence

On Tue, 8 Nov 1994, John Foster wrote:

>   The article goes on to mention how many dams are not being built which would
> aid the countries and communities involved because of the defence
> possibilities. This seems somewhat a paradox or two mutually exclusive
> principles that causes my civilian mind some turmoil. You cant have progress
> because the defenders of that progress say it may be a liability.I pictured
> Hitler fuming at his underlyings after the dam busters raid as they tended
> their excuses " We tried to tell
> you that building all those dams to supply the Ruhr would cost us the
> war"

John

Could you give a citation for the article in the New Scientist, I would
be interested in reading it.

As for the rest, I am not quite sure where you want this thread to go,
but I will add my two cents worth anyway.

I have an interest in the bombings of the "Dam Busters" because I lived
in the area hardest hit by the bombings of the Moehne and Sorpe Dams in
October of 1943.  I first learned of the bombings and the devastation
that followed when I visited the Moehne See in 1986 while I was an
exchange student in the Sauerland of Germany.  My host mother and
grandmother took me there to have lunch at a restaurant by the lake.
They knew I had an interest in WWII and thought I might like to see the
pictures/paintings of the tragic night from 43 years earlier.  My
grandmother spoke of that October night over lunch and the emotions were
still very strong even after forty-some years.  She remembered the roar
of the water as it busted through the dam.  She remembered thinking that
an earthquake had struck, but when the shaking and roar did not stop, she
knew that something far worse had occurred.  Luckily for her and her
family, they lived on "high ground" and therefore did not lose home or
family.

Since the day I first heard of the bombing and its aftermath, I have
spoken with many people who recall the tragedy.

John, your mentioning of the bombing of dams brought back the memory of
all of the people I have spoken with over the last eight years and I
decided to re-read a book I haven't opened in nearly as long.  It is
called *Als Deutschlands Daemme brachen: Die Wahrheit ueber die
Bombardierung der Moehne-Eder-Sorpe-Staudaemme 1943* by Helmut Euler.
Unfortunately, I do not think that the book has been translated, so unless
you happen to know German, it will not do you a much good.  However, if you
would be interested in the statistics of these bombings, I would be happy
to sit down and type them out.

C.K. Bryant
muckb1@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:11:28 -0600
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 1

In the fall of 1941, land surveyors and appraisers invaded the small
communities of Table Grove, Ipava, and Bernadotte, along the Spoon River
in west central Illinois, to acquire some 17,750 acres of land which was
used to build one of the largest army training centers in Illinois and one
of the largest army service forces' training camps in the country. Named
for World War I hero and Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, Sergeant
Michael B. Ellis, Camp Ellis contained some 2,200 buildings, including a
1,500 bed hospital, a mock German village, and a prisoner-of- war
stockade; housed 50,000 people; employed 1,500 civilians; and cost about
$70 million to build.  On April 15, 1943, about six months after
construction began, Camp Ellis was officially opened, and Colonel Basil D.
Spalding was named the camp's first commanding officer.  He was succeeded
by Major General Russell L. Maxwell, Brigadier General George E. Hartman,
and Colonel John L. Sullivan.  The camp was officially dedicated on July
4, 1943, by Governor Dwight H. Green.

Under the Sixth Service Command, Camp Ellis trained soldiers for overseas
combat as engineers, quartermasters, and medics.  A few Signal Corps
personnel were also trained, and in 1944 a training group was established
to train individual soldiers as replacements for units already overseas.
The troops received training in house-to-house fighting in Camp Ellis'
mock German village.  As the soldiers attacked the village, they
encountered live machine gun fire along with targets popping up in the
windows, doors, and alleyways.  Between April 1943 and December 1944, a
total of 125,000 men passed through Camp Ellis.  The camp shipped out 456
units of 58 different types, ranging from huge engineering regiments to
small medical detachments.  One of those units was the 1306 Engineer
General Service Regiment which constructed some eighty-six bridges as it
followed the Third Army across Europe.  The regiment later transferred to
Japan and became a part of the occupational forces.

In addition to training troops for combat, Camp Ellis also served as an
internment facility for German and Austrian soldiers who had been
conscripted into the German Army.  The first contigent of 2,672 POWs
arrived in late August 1943, and that figure reached 5,000 before the camp
closed.  The prisoners cut brush, worked on farms, laid bricks, dug
ditches, and maintained the railroad tracks leading into the installation.

To be continued...

Sources:
Knowles, Judy.  "Camp Ellis."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 12 (April 1959):
173.

Richey, John.  "Spoon River Camp."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 20 (April 1967):
159-60.

Roberts, Delbert.  "Remember When..."  MACOMB JOURNAL, 5 October 1994.

Waterson, Michelle.  "Camp Ellis: Built for World War II."  ILLINOIS
HISTORY 36 (November 1982): 45-46.

Watters, Mary.  ILLINOIS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.  Vol. 1, OPERATION HOME
FRONT.  Vol. 2, THE PRODUCTION FRONT.  Springfield, Ill.: Illinois State
Historical Library, 1951-52.

Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:24:05 -0500
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: WHAT IF:  1943 Plot to Kill Hitler

Hi everyone!

A freind of mine is writing a short story on a hypothetical ww2 scenario
where Adolf Hitler is assassinated in 1943.  He has sent  a brief query
on particulars.  If anyone can proovide reasonable estimates it would be
greatly appreciated.

>     * approximate age of a major or young colonel in the
>     German Military in 1943.
>     * Rank of commander and second in command of a U-boat.
>     * Would Rommel have assumed command if a coup occurred
>     in early '43?  If not Erwin, then who?
>     * Dates of Sicily and Anzio invasions.

Hell, even I can get this one:  Sicily (OPERATION HUSKY) July 10, 1943;
Salerno (OPERATION AVALANCHE) September 9, 1943; Anzio (OPERATION SHINGLE)
Jan. 22, 1944.

     * Names of main anti-Hitler conspirators.

Uh.  Col. Count Claus von Stauffenburg carried the briefcase. Was
Canaris involved peripherally, a perpetual conspirator?

        _The German Army_, by Matthew Cooper says that Halder was an active
conspirator until 1943. Beck was supposed to be a main conspirator and
had been the choice leader to replace Hitler had the 1944 plot
succeeded.
        Cooper describes several attempts on Hitler's life in 1943.
To wit:
        "During 1943 there were several attempts on the Fuhrer's life,
but all came to nothing:  On 13 March a bomb, placed in his aircraft by
a group of officers at von Kluge's headquarters, failed to go off; later
that month Hitler's vacillation over whether to visit the War Museum in
Berlin caused a suicide bomb attempt to be cancelled; some time
afterwards, an officer who managed to get into the Fuhrer's presence
was, because of his junior rank, placed too far from the dictator to be
able to shoot him; in November another suicide mission misfired, owing
to Hitler's non-appearance; and in December a further bomb attempt was
frustrated because of Hitler's last-minute cancellation of a
conference."
        Does anyone have any other info on these attempts, like who was
involved, or any other details?

Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:29:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew and others!

Here goes with a listing of hardcover editions of books I possess
which deal with "Barbarossa" and related topics:

                   Hardcover

1. The Russo-German War, 1941-1945 by Albert Seaton
2. Hitler by Joachim C. Fest
3. Adolf Hitler by John Toland
4. The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer
5. The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler by Robert Payne
6. The German Dictatorship by Karl-Dietrich Bracher
7. The German Army, 1933-1945 by Matthew Cooper
8. Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer
9. Hitler and His Generals by Harold C. Deutsch
10. The Service: The Memoirs of General Reinhard Gehlen
11. A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff 1807-1945 by
    T. N. Dupuy
12. The Crime and Punishment of I. G. Farben: The Startling Account
    of the Unholy Alliance of Adolf Hitler with Germany's Great
    Chemical Combine by Joseph Borkin
13. Panzer Commander by Hans-Ulrich von Luck
14. Soldat: The Reflections of a German Soldier 1936-1949 by
    Siegfried Knappe
15. Codeword Barbarossa by Barton Whaley
16. In Service of the Reich by Field-Marshal Wilhelm Keitel
17. Disaster at Moscow by Alfred W. Turney
18. German Strategy Against Russia, 1939-1941 by Barry Leach
19. Against Stalin and Hitler: Memoirs of the Russian Liberation
    Movement by Wilfried Strik-Strikfeldt
20. Lost Victories by Field-Marshal Erich von Manstein
21. Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East by Earl F.
    Ziemke
22. The Decline and Fall of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan by Hans
    Dollinger
23. The Fall of Berlin bhy Anthony Read and David Fisher
24. Goebbels by Ralf-Georg Reuth
25. The Memoirs of Marshal Mannerheim
26. Hitler: The Man and the Military Leader by Percy Ernst Schramm
27. Hitler's Generals by Richard Humble
28. The Soviet General Staff at War, 1941-1945 by S. M. Shtemenko
29. The Goebbels' Diaries, 1939-1941
30. Goebbels by Helmut Heiber
31. The History of the German Resistance, 1933-1945 by Peter Hoffmann
    (excellent)
32. The Secret Conferences of Dr. Goebbels by Willi Boelcke
33. Goebbels and National Socialist Propaganda, 1925-1945 by Dr.
    Ernest K. Bramsted (considered the best work on the subject)
34. The War Path by David Irving
35. Hitler and Stalin by Alan Bullock
36. The Road to Stalingrad by John Ericson
37. Hitler's War Aims by Norman Rich (2 volumes)
38. The Last European War by John Lucacz
39. The Illusion: Soviet Soldiers in Hitler's Armies by Juergen
    Thorwald
40. Hitler's Generals by Correlli Barnett
41. The Nazi Secret Service by Andre Brissaud
42. Guderian by Kenneth Macksey
43. German Rule in Russia by Alexander Dallin
44. The German General Staff, 1657-1945 by Walter Goerlitz
45. Katyn: A Crime without Parallel by Louis Fitzgibbon
46. The Road to Yalta by Louis Fischer
47. The Stroop Report: The Jewish Quarter of Warsaw is no more. A
    facsimile translation of the official Nazi report on the
    destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto
48. Conversations with an Executioner: An incredible 255 day-long
    interview with the man who destroyed the Warsaw Ghetto by
    Kazimierz Moczarski
49. The Order of the Death's Head by Heinz Hoehne
50. European Volunteers: 5th SS Panzerdivision "Wiking" by Peter
    Strassner
51. Heinrich Himmler by Bradley F. Smith
52. Of Pure Blood by Marc Hillel
53. The Waffen-SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939-1945 by George
    H. Stein
54. Waffen-SS: Uniforms, Organization and History of the Waffen-SS by
    Roger Bender and Hugh Page Taylor (5 volumes)
55. Foreign Legions of the Third Reich by David Littlejohn (4 volumes)
56. Hitler's Gladiator: The Life and Times of Oberstgruppenfuehrer
    and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS Sepp Dietrich by Charles Messenger
57. Soldiers of Evil: The Commandants of the Nazi Concentration Camps
    by Tom Segev
58. Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division 1933-1945
    by Dr. Charles Sydnor
59. The SS: Alibi of a Nation by Gerald Reitlinger
60. Tiger: The History of a Legendary Weapon 1942-1945 by Eugen Kleine


                      Stalin

1. Let History Judge by Roy Medvedev
2. Stalin:Triumph and Tragedy by Dmitri Volkoganov
3. Khruschev Remembers
4. A History of Russian and Soviet Sea Power by Donald W. Mitchell
5. Stalin by Adam B. Ulam
6. Stalin as Military Commander by Albert Seaton
7. Stalin and His Generals by Seweryn Bialer
8. Stalin: The History of a Dictator by H. Mongomery Hyde
9. The Memoirs of Marshal Zhukov
10. The Last Secret: The Delivery to Stalin of over 2 million
    Russians by Britain and the United States by Nicholas Bethell
11. Conversations with Stalin by Milovan Djilas
12. Russia at War by Alexander Werth


This concludes the English Language volumes. I shall post the German
Language editions I have on this topic that will be of interest.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:17:35 -0500
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: Comet and Andree de Jongh

>
> Two escape networks in Belgium deserve special mention: "Comet" and
> "Pat O'Leary".

Terry,
  Are there any books out about these "Networks"??

  Thanks in Advance,
                    Mike
 ___________________________________________________________________
|                                                                   |
|    Michael A. Oaks                 Music: A way to mark times     |
|    Kennesaw State College                 stepping stones through |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu             your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  MAO |
|___________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:11:26 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: BOOKS-Okinawa

I came across a book in the bookstore called Tennozan-The Battle of
Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb by G. Feifer. I have read about 100 pages so
and I like it so far. Does anyone have a opinion of this book, good or
bad?-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:37:13 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 1

Michael:

I look forward to reading more about Camp Ellis in your future posts.
Being from Illinois, I am always into learning more about its history in
any era, not just WWII.


Personal Note to Michael Wallick:

Do you often eat lunch at the Delta Deli?  I think I might know who you
are if you do.  I was talking about Terry one day and mentioned the
WWII-Listserv and a gentleman who eats in the Deli turned to look at us at
the moment I mentioned the group.  Was that you?  Just curious...I didn't
want to go up to the poor guy and say, "Hey, are you Michael from the
WWII-Listserv?"

See Ya' Around,

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:50:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WHAT IF:  1943 Plot to Kill Hitler

Hello, Emery!

Can answer your questions with some research, but you are asking for
an opinion on this one:


> >     * Would Rommel have assumed command if a coup occurred
> >     in early '43?  If not Erwin, then who?

    I really doubt that, given the fact that he was not that privy to
the extent of the military resistance to Hitler. I take it you mean
political charge of the government and not the military. At that
time, my understanding would be that General Ludwig Beck would have
been the likely choice, as he was the one name who was respected
abroad, and had been involved in the conspiracy against Hitler from
the beginning. General Beck was the last great name, besides von
Seeckt, associated with the General Staff before it became completely
dominated by AH.

> Uh.  Col. Count Claus von Stauffenburg carried the briefcase. Was
> Canaris involved peripherally, a perpetual conspirator?

    There were many, and I will list a few:

        Captain Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst
        Generalmajor Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff
        Generalmajor Helmut Stieff
        Colonel Count Merz von Quirnheim
        General der Infanterie Friedrich Olbricht
        General der Nachrichtentruppe Erich Fellgiebel (Chief of
        Signals)
        Lieutenant Werner von Haeften (Stauffenberg's aide)
        Colonel Hans Oster (Abwehr)
        Generalleutnant Hans Speidel
        General der Infanterie Heinrich von Stuelpnagel (military
        commandant of Paris)
        Generalfeldmarschall Erwin von Witzleben
        Generaloberst Franz Halder (Chief of the German General Staff
        up to 1942)
        Generaloberst Erich Hoeppner

                        Civilians

        Karl Goerdeler-Mayor of Leipzig
        Fabian von Schlabrendorff
        Ulrich von Hassel-former envoy to the Vatican
        Helmuth Count von Moltke of the Kreisau Circle
        Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer
        Adam von Trott zu Solz

>         _The German Army_, by Matthew Cooper says that Halder was an active
> conspirator until 1943. Beck was supposed to be a main conspirator and
> had been the choice leader to replace Hitler had the 1944 plot
> succeeded.
>
  Cooper describes several attempts on Hitler's life in 1943.
> To wit:
>         "During 1943 there were several attempts on the Fuhrer's life,
> but all came to nothing:  On 13 March a bomb, placed in his aircraft by
> a group of officers at von Kluge's headquarters, failed to go off; later
> that month Hitler's vacillation over whether to visit the War Museum in
> Berlin caused a suicide bomb attempt to be cancelled; some time
> afterwards, an officer who managed to get into the Fuhrer's presence
> was, because of his junior rank, placed too far from the dictator to be
> able to shoot him; in November another suicide mission misfired, owing
> to Hitler's non-appearance; and in December a further bomb attempt was
> frustrated because of Hitler's last-minute cancellation of a
> conference."
>         Does anyone have any other info on these attempts, like who was
> involved, or any other details?

    Yes, a Colonel Rudolf Brandt, the same Brandt who lost his life
in the bomb explosion at Rastenburg on 20 July 1944, was the man who
received the two bottles of "Champagne" from the plotters which was
supposed to have gone off at altitude. Brandt handed these over to
the officer for whom they were intended who was in on the plot who
found that they had not exploded because the high altitude freezing
temperatures had frozen the striker which would have detonated the
bomb.


    The other plot you mention, where Hitler failed to show, dealt
with an inspection of winter uniforms. Involved in this was Captain
Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst. He was prepared to throw
himself on Hitler with a grenade that would have a 2 or 3 second
fuse. It would cost him his own life but Hitler's as well. If this
had not succeeded at the time, say a misfire or failure to explode,
von dem Bussche had a knife concealed in his boot that he would have
used. In any event, he was committed to killing Hitler.

This inspection was cancelled and re-scheduled, but in the meantime,
the uniforms were stored in a rail car on a siding in Berlin. They
were destroyed in an air raid and von dem Bussche was forced to
return to the front. He was not used again, before the 20 July plot,
and after that date, Himmler effectively rooted out any resistance to
AH.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 14:58:59 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Comet and Andree de Jongh

Hello, Mike!

Glad to hear from you again, and hope you are well.

>   Are there any books out about these "Networks"??

    Not to my knowledge. The info I supplied on these networks is the
result of perusing about 15 books dealing with subterfuge and spying
during the Second World War. I finally found the info I posted in
Marshall-Cavendish's "History of the Second World War" Volume 16,pp
1903-1904. I thought it would have been discussed in one called
"Noah's Ark" by "Madeleine" (I forget her real name), as this goes
into her exploits on the Continent, but she doesn't say a word about
it.
    I will keep an eye out on anything dealing with this topic, as I
buy anything I can lay my hands on that deals with this topic. There
just aren't that many things I have seen that are in print that deal
with this "less-than-glamourous-side" of WWII.

    Will be posting many more titles. Thanks for the question, and I
wish I could be of more assistance.

    All the best to you.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 20:21:44 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU> writes:

> Dear Arnaud,
>
> Paul Carrell is the nom de plume of a former ranking official in Goebbels
> Ministry of Propaganda, whose name escapes me at the moment. His books
> are a good example of the interpretation of the war the Germans were
> trying to establish in the 1950s and 1960s. They are considered biased
> by most scholars in the field, but they are also good on some detail.
> If you are building a specialized Eastern Front collection, they may be
> worth the money ($35 or so? I got mine years ago, and don't know the
> current price), but be careful in reading them. If you want accuracy,
> although in a drier read, get Earl Ziemke's volumes or Albert Seaton's
> work instead.
>
> Henry Sirotin

Thanks a lot Henry. Well then I was right in saving my bucks (or pounds as
it turned out), this was just was I feared.
I bought Albert Seaton's book and it is the best
I have read, though not very attractive for non-specialists, like Glantz's.
Yes, I am trying to build a collection on the subject, but it I have only
been attracted by a handful of authors. There are many books on a particular
division (always German), usually admirative, and I prefer broader works.
Months ago I nearly ordered E. ZIemke's books, but refrained, having read
they were wrong on many points. What is your opinion on Ziemke ?

Oh, and Carrell now costs several times $35. Each of the volumes I saw in
London was very expensive.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 16:59:41 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: WHAT IF: 1943 Plot to Kill Hitler

two very good books you really should consult on thei topic are

THE GERMAN RESISTANCE TO HITLER

HITLER'S PERSONAL SECURITY

both by Peter Hoffmann; published in the early 1980's by in the US by
either MIT Press or one of the California Universities  (hey, this is
from memory--my sources are at home)  Very good details as to specifics
and technical data.

The Resistance in 1943 was very different from what was left in the
summer of 1944-- many of the Kreisau Circle weren't under arrest, for
example.  Stauffenberg spent much of 1943 on convalescent leave
recovering from terrible maiming wounds suffered in Tunisia, so I would
imagine his availability to the Resistance in 1943 to be very limited.
Kluge hadn't transferred from Russia to France yet, so von Treschkow's
influence over him should have made him (i.e. Kluge) a major player in
the projected '43 coup.  Canaris & the Abwehr were still viable, and
Oster not relieved of duty yet.  Obviously the most feasible plot for
that year would've been from the Eastern Front gang (Treschkow, et al).
But bear in mind that while more civilian leaders (Moltke, Leber,
Goerdler, etc) were still available in '43, the general populace hadn't
turned against Hitler yet (if they ever did).

Enough rambling for now.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 15:39:05 PST
From:    "Mark H. Walter" <mwalter@WORLD.NAD.NORTHROP.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP M5A1 Stuart tank

Tim

I tried mailing you but I don't think it got through so I will post here.
Sorry everyone else.  It would be great if you could put me in touch with
the M5 owner in Chicago.  Thanks.
                           H 310 312 1222
                           W 310 331 5605
                           Mark Walter  mwalter@world.nad.northrop.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:40:18 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BB-64??

On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > bb64.gif      137699 Nov  6  USS MINNESOTA, BB-64, 11 NOV 44, at Pearl
> >                              Harbor, alongside USS OKLAHOMA, BB-37 (the
> >                              "Okie" is being prepared for return to
> >                              CONUS.)
>
> I was aware that BB-64 is USS Wisconsin. Is this the same ship (with other
> name)?
>
> Jorge Merino
>

The description must be a misprint. The picture sure looks like an Iowa
class and I can find no mention that the Wisconsin was previously the
Minnesota.

By the way - the Minnesota (BB-22, Vermont class) was sold in 1924.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 21:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
A-20, Douglas Havoc
A-26, Douglas Invader
B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
B-24, Consolidated Liberator
B-25, North American Mitchell
B-26, Martin Marauder
B-29, Boeing Superfortress
C-47, Douglas Skytrain
F-5, Lockheed Lightning
F-6, North American Mustang
L-5, Stinson Sentinel
Mosquito, deHavilland
P-38, Lockheed Lightning
P-40, Curtiss
P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
P-51, North American Mustang
P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force):
     Eleventh AF: An 8-plane armed reconnaissance sweep and a 4-plane bombing
mission are cancelled due to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 B-25s bomb Mangshih while
10 P-38s hit targets of opportunity in the Mangshih-Chefang area; 6 B-25s
bomb Kaifeng while 6 others hit sampans, storage areas, and other targets of
opportunity in the Yiyang area; 160 P-40s, P-38s, and P-51s on armed
reconnaissance over wide expanses of S China and N Indochina attack trucks,
gun positions, river and coastal shipping, and other targets of opportunity
at or near Pingnam, Kweihsien, Changsha, Yoyang, Siangtan, Lushan, Kioshan,
Paoching, Hengyang, Liangshan, Liuchow, Suikai, and Weichow Island and Gia
Lam and Kien An, French Indochina.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ aircraft bomb
concentrations and supply areas at Kutkai, Shwebo, Mawtawng, and Kunhailong,
bomb the airfield at Kawlin, knock out a bridge at Ho-hko, and support ground
forces and hit targets of opportunity near Chyauhkawng, Namakyaing, Sepein,
Tonlon, and at other points in the same general area; 6 B-25s bomb rail yards
at Kanbalu; transports continue large-scale operations, flying nearly 300
sorties to forward areas; the 20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 8th
Photographic Reconnaissance Group, moves from Kisselbari, India to Myitkyina
with P-40s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 304th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Peray to St-Andre-de-L'Eure,
France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 707: 1,309 bombers and 738 fighters are dispatched to hit front
line strongpoints and tactical targets in the Metz and Thionville, France
areas; 4 bombers and 5 fighters are lost:
  1. 460 B-17s are dispatched to hit transportation targets at Thionville
(47); 276 hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; targets of
opportunity are Saarlautern (34) and other (3); 4 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged
beyond repair and 96 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 6 WIA and 27 MIA. Escort is
provided by 187 of 192 P-51s without loss.
  2. 437 B-17s are dispatched to hit transportation targets at Metz (345); 41
hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; 28 hit Koblenz; 3
B-17s are damaged beyond repair and 13 damaged; 19 airment are KIA. Escort is
provided by 176 of 184 P-51s without loss.
  3. 402 B-24s are dispatched to hit transportation targets at Metz (385); 15
hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; 1 B-24 is damaged
beyond repair and 5 damaged. Escort is provided by 113 of 119 P-51s; 3 P-51s
are damaged beyond repair.
  4. 10 of 10 B-17s fly a screening force mission.
  5. 139 P-47s and P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions in the Frankfurt-
Lannheim area of Germany; 1 P-47 and 4 P-51s are lost; 4 pilots are MIA.
  6. 30 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting forces mission.
  Mission 708: 5 B-17s and 12 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands
and Germany during the night.
  The 27th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance) (attached to VIII Air Force Service Command), moves from
Mount Farm, England to Denain/Prouvy, France with F-5s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 74 planes of the 9th Bombardment
Division attack road junctions, barracks, ordnance arsenals, artillery camps,
military storage depot, and other targets in the Dieuze and Faulquemont,
France and Landau and Sankt Wendel, Germany areas; the IX Tactical Air
Command flies sweeps over W Germany and attacks marshalling yard at Duren,
Germany, while the XXIX Tactical Air Command escort attacks Rahling, Germany
and an airfield and supports US Third Army elements (2 infantry and 2 armored
divisions) as an allout assault on Metz, France is pushed. In France, HQ 358th
Fighter Group moves from Mourmelon to Toul; the 379th Fighter Squadron, 362d
Fighter Group, moves from Prosnes to Rouvres with P-47s; the 425th Night
Fighter Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command, moves from Prosnes to Etain with
P-61s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to 4 weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather hampers
medium bombers operations in the Po Valley as 7 of 9 missions abort; in the
2 others, bridges in the Valley are hit; fighters and fighter-bombers fly
less than 100 sorties, but successfully strike road and railroad bridges in
the Bologna-Modena areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Guam Island, fly shipping
reconnaissance over the Bonin Islands attacking vessels and AA positions at
Haha Jima Island, shipping and town at Okimura and returning, strafe Iwo Jima
Island. P-47s from Saipan Island Island strafe storage caves on Pagan Island.
During the night of 9/10 Nov a lone B-24 from Guam Island, on a snooper
mission, bombs Iwo Jima Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, fighter-bombers attack a convoy off the W coast of Leyte Island and
hit barges and shipping near Ormoc; B-24s bomb Carolina Airfield on Negros
Island. B-25s attack several airfields and villages in the NE peninsula of
Celebes and Halmahera Islands. A-20s strike Piroe on Ceram Island. HQ 309th
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Noemfoor Island to Owi, Schouten Islands.
The 70th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, based at Sansapor, New Guinea,
begins operating from Morotai Island with P-38s. The 408th Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 22d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Owi, Schouten
Island to Leyte Island with B-24s; the 431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter
Group, moves from Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte Island with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

09/0229Z NOV

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Nov 1994 to 8 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 31 messages totalling 1211 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. BOOKS-OKINAWA
  2. WWII Story
  3. INF: USN Chronology 11-09-94 (2)
  4. WEAP:  CV-12  USS Hornet
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-NOV-1944
  6. Eastern Front Books (5)
  7. OOPS!  45,000 lb Bomb
  8. Japanese cannibalism in the South Pacific? (3)
  9. GEN:  Marshal Rokossovsky (4)
 10. WEAP: P-40's captured by Japan
 11. Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 2 (2)
 12. Comet Line
 13. Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 3
 14. Air Ace's death
 15. TACT:Halsey
 16. [INF] USAAF 10 NOV 44
 17. Submarines
 18. HAPPY BIRTHDAY
 19. JAPANESE CANNIBALISM I
 20. TACT:HALSEY

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 01:04:30 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: BOOKS-OKINAWA

As the author of two histories of Okinawa and co-author of another, I feel that
there are certain errors in this book. The reviews were mixed. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Nov 1994 23:44:28 PST
From:    "mer@halcyon.com" <mer@HALCYON.COM>
Subject: WWII Story

Needed Quickly...World War II story varified:  It has been said that
sometime during WWII (perhaps just before the Normandy invasion?), a group
of Allied soldiers, trapped in a vulnerable and deadly position, were able
to send a message (to England, I believe), requesting relief.  The message
ended with a quotation from the Bible, Daniel 3:18, "and if not.."  The
inclusion of the quotation was intended to mirror the convictions and
actions of Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego in Daniel 3; that is, that while
facing certain death, they still would not turn their backs on truth,
loyalty and duty...even if no one could, or would, rescue them.  Does this
story sound familar?  (My details may be incorrect.)  I would appreciate
hearing what version of this story you may have heard, and where you heard
it.  Thanks!

Mike Rochleau-Rice
mer@halcyon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 04:00:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-09-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/09 Thu.  German submarine sunk:
             U-537, by submarine FLOUNDER (SS-251), Java Sea,
              07 d. 13'S., 115 d. 17'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 06:53:36 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  CV-12  USS Hornet

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. III, 1968, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

HORNET (CV-12)

dp. 27,000;
l. 872';
b. 147' 6";
dr. 28';
s. 33 k.;
cpl. 3,448;
a. 12 5", 40 40-mm.;
cl. ESSEX

Newport News Shipbuilding  Dry Dock Co. Newport News, Va.,
sponsored by Mrs. Frank M. Knox wife of the Secretary of the Navy;
and commissioned 29 November 1943, Captain Miles M. Browning in
command.

HORNET conducted shakedown training off Bermuda before departing
Norfolk 14 February 1944 to join the Fast Carrier Task Force 20
March at Majuro Atoll in the Marshalls. After lending air support
to protect the invasion beaches in New Guinea, she conducted
massive aerial raids against Japanese bases in the Caroline Islands
and prepared to support the amphibious assault for the occupation
of the Marianas Islands

On 11 June 1944 HORNET launched raids on Tinian and Saipan. The
following day she conducted heavy bombing attacks on Guam and Rota.
During 15 to 16 June, she blasted enemy air fields at Iwo and
Chichi Jima to prevent air attacks on troops invading Saipan in the
Marianas. The afternoon of 18 June 1944 HORNET formed with the Fast
Carrier Task Force to intercept the Japanese First Mobile Fleet,
headed through the Philippine Sea for Saipan. The Battle of the
Philippine Sea opened 19 June 1944 when HORNET launched strikes to
destroy as many land-based Japanese planes as possible before the
carrier-based Japanese aircraft came in.

The enemy approached the American carriers in four massive waves.
But fighter aircraft from HORNET and other carriers did a
magnificent job and broke up all the attacks before the Japanese
aerial raiders reached the task force. Nearly every Japanese
aircraft was shot down in the great air battles of 19 June 1944
that became commonly known as "The Marianas Turkey Shoot." As the
Japanese Mobile Fleet fled in defeat on 20 June, the carriers
launched long-range airstrikes that sank Japanese carrier HIJI and
so damaged two tankers that they were abandoned and scuttled.
Admiral Ozawa's own flag log for 20 June 1944 showed his surviving
carrier air power as only 35 operational aircraft out of the 430
planes with which he had commenced the Battle of the Philippine
Sea.

HORNET, basing from Eniwetok in the Marshalls, raided enemy
installations ranging from Guam to the Bonins then turned her
attention to the Palaus, throughout the Philippine Sea, and to
enemy bases on Okinawa and Formosa. Her aircraft gave direct
support to the troops invading Leyte 20 October 1944. During the
Battle for Leyte Gulf she launched raids for damaging hits to the
Japanese center force in the Battle off Samar, and hastened the
retreat of the enemy fleet through the Sibuyan Sea towards Borneo.

In the following months HORNET attacked enemy shipping and
airfields throughout the Philippines. This included participation in
a raid that destroyed an entire Japanese convoy in Ormoc Bay. On 30
December 1944 she departed Ulithi in the Carolines for raids against
Formosa, Indo- China, and the Pescadores Islands. In route back to
Ulithi, HORNET planes made photo reconnaissance of Okinawa 22 January
1945 to aid the planned invasion of that "last stepping-stone to
Japan."

HORNET again departed Ulithi 10 February for full-scale aerial
assaults on Tokyo, then supported the amphibious landing assault on
Iwo Jima 19- 20 February 1945. Repeated raids were made against the
Tokyo plains industrial complex, and Okinawa was hard hit. On 1
April 1945 HORNET planes gave direct support to the amphibious
assault landings on Okinawa. On 6 April her aircraft joined in
attacks which sank the mighty Japanese battleship YAMATO and her
entire task force as it closed Okinawa. The following 2 months
found HORNET alternating between close support to ground troops on
Okinawa and hard-hitting raids to destroy the industrial capacity
of Japan. She was caught in a howling typhoon 4 to 5 June 1945
which collapsed some 25 feet of her forward flight deck.

HORNET was routed back to the Philippines and from there to San
Francisco, arriving 7 July 1945. Her overhaul was complete by 13
September 1945 when she departed as a part of the "Magic Carpet"
operation that saw her return home troops from the Marianas and
Hawaiian Islands. She returned to San Francisco 9 February 1946.
She decommissioned there 15 January 1947, and joined the Pacific
Reserve Fleet.

HORNET recommissioned 20 March 1951, then sailed from San Francisco
for the New York Naval Shipyard where she decommissioned 12 May 1951
for conversion to an attack aircraft carrier (CVA-12). She
recommissioned 11 September 1953 and trained in the Caribbean Sea
before departure from Norfolk 11 May 1954 on an 8-month global
cruise.

After operations in the Mediterranean Sea and the Indian Ocean,
HORNET joined the mobile 7th fleet in the South China Sea where 25
July, search planes from her task group shot down two attacking
Chinese Communist fighter planes. She returned to San Francisco 12
December 1954, trained out of San Diego, then sailed 4 May 1955 to
join the 7th fleet in the Far East.

HORNET helped cover the evacuation of Vietnamese from the Communist
controlled north to freedom in South Vietnam, then ranged from Japan
to Formosa, Okinawa, and the Philippines in readiness training with
the 7th fleet. She returned to San Diego 10 December 1965 and entered
the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard the following month for conversion
that included a hurricane bow and the installation of an angled
flight deck which permits the simultaneous launching and recovery of
aircraft.

Following her modernization overhaul, HORNET operated along the
California coast. She departed San Diego 21 January 1967 to bolster
the strength of the 7th fleet until her return from the troubled
Far East 25 July. Following a similar cruise, 6 January-2 July
1958, she was converted to an Antisubmarine Warfare Support Carrier
(CVS-12) in the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. On 3 April 1959 she
sailed from Long Beach to join the 7th fleet in antisubmarine
warfare tactics ranging from Japan to Okinawa and the Philippines.
She returned home in October, for training along the western
seaboard.

In the following years, HORNET was regularly deployed to the 7th
fleet for operations ranging from the coast of South Vietnam, to the
shores of Japan, the Philippines and Okinawa. On 25 August 1966 she
was on recovery station for the unmanned Apollo moonship that
rocketed three- quarters of the way around the globe in 93 minutes
before splashdown near Wake Island. Scorched from the heat of its
re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere, the Apollo space capsule,
designed to carry American astronauts to the moon, was brought
aboard HORNET after its test.

HORNET returned to Long Beach 8 September, but headed back to the
Far East 27 March 1967. She reached Japan exactly a month later and
departed Sasebo 19 May for the war zone. She operated in Vietnamese
waters throughout the remainder of spring and during much of the
summer of 1967 aiding in the struggle to keep freedom alive in
Southeast Asia.

HORNET received the Presidential Unit Citation and seven battle
stars for service in World War II.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 04:22:14 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-NOV-1944

On 10-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The XX and XII Corps of the US 3rd Army continue their
offensives in the area of Metz and east of Nancy. The divisions of the XX
Corps make progress in the Koenigsmacker area, in the Uckange and Malling
bridgeheads and south of Metz towards the northeast. The divisions of the XII
Corps advance rapidly on the northern flank.

Philippines (Leyte) - The X Corps advances into the central mountains. The
24th Division mounts a frontal attack on a series of hills called Breakneck
Ridge which is heavily defended by the Japanese. In the XXIX Corps sector, the
382nd Infantry completes the liquidation of the last nests of resistance on
Bloody Ridge.

China - The Japanese expeditionary force captures Kweilin and Liuchow without
difficulty, depriving the US 14th Air Force of these two bases.

The Homefront
-------------
Polygamists Sentenced - Eleven women and 20 men, convicted on polygamous
marriage charges, have been sentenced in District Court, Salt Lake City, Utah,
to jail sentences of one year each after they are denied motions for a new
trial and a judgement of innocence.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 07:00:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew and others!

I found some more paperbacks that I overlooked. Here goes with some
more titles:

                          Paperback

1. The Warsaw Ghetto no Longer Exists by Juergen Stroop
2. Tank by Kenneth Macksey
3. Otto Weidinger by Mark Yerger
4. Otto Kumm by Mark Yerger
5. The Onslaught: The German Drive to Stalingrad by Max Hastings
6. von Kleist: From Hussar to Panzer General by Clyde Davis
7. SS Armor by Robert Stern
8. Panzer Battles by Major-General F.W. von Mellenthin
9. Hitler Moves East, 1941-1943 by Paul Carrell
10. Scorched Earth: The Russo-German War 1943-1944 by Paul Carrell

                      Hardcover

1. Hitler's Generals and Their Battles by Brigadier Shefford Birdwell
2. Hitler's Propaganda Machine by Ward Rutherford
3. Hitler's Wartime Picture Magazine Signal by S. L. Mayer
4. Signal: Years of Triumph, 1940-1942 by S. L. Mayer
5. Adler: The Official Nazi Luftwaffe Magazine by S. L. Mayer

That is it for the English Language books. The rest will be
German editions.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 07:28:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

Hello, Drew and others!

Here goes with some more titles. These will be German Language
editions that may be of interest. You will see the word "Geschichte"
many times. This means "history" for those who are not familiar with
German. In some instances, I have translated the title into English.
Here goes:



                             Paperback

1. Die Infanterie Regimenter 12 und 467-1921-1945 by Albert Bollmann
2. Panzerzuege im Einsatz auf deutscher Seite 1939-1945 by Wolfgang
   Sawodny


                             Hardcover

1. Pictorial History of the SS, 1933-19456 by Andrew Mollo
2. Wie ein Fels im Meer: die Geschichte der 3. SS Panzer Division by
   Karl Ullrich
3. Krim-Stalingrad-Kaukasus, 1941-1945 by Werner Haupt
4. Leningrad-Wolchow-Kurland, 1941-1945 by Werner Haupt
5. Illustrierte Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkrieges by Dr. Kurt Zentner
6. Wenn Alle Brueder Schweigen (Pictorial history of the Waffen-SS)
7. Division das Reich im Bild by Otto Weidinger
8. Panzerkampf im Bild by Willy Fey
9. Verweht sind die Spuren by Johann-Rudolf Muehlenkamp
10. An der Spitze by Ernst-August Krag (SS recon unit history)
11. Kriegsgeschichte der 12. SS Panzer Division "Hitler Jugend" by
    Hubert Meyer (2 volumes)
12. Kavellerie Divisionen in der Waffen-SS im Bild
13. Die Leibstandarte im Bild by Rudolf Lehmann
14. Verschwoerung und Verrat um Hitler by Otto Ernst Remer
15. Die Geschichte der Deutschen Panzer Waffe by General Walther K.
    Nehring
16. Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland by Hellmuth Spaeter
17. Unternehmen Barbarossa im Bild by Paul Carrell
18. Erich Fellgiebel by Karl Heinz Wildhagen
19. Geschichte der 16. Panzer Division (2 volumes)
20. Der letzte Monat 14 April-27 May 1945: Diary Entries of the
    former Chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe by General Karl
    Koller
21. Die Einsaetze der Panzergrenadierdivision  Grossdeutschland by
    Hellmuth Spaeter
22. Das war Guderian by H. Scheibert
23. Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland by Hellmuth Spaeter
24. Die Freiwilligen der Waffen-SS by Felix Steiner
25. Das Auge der Division (The reconnaissance battalion of the SS
    Panzergrenadierdivision "Goetz von Berlichingen")
26. Waffen-SS im Einsatz by Paul Hausser
27. Berlin im Todeskampf 1945: French Volunteers of the Waffen-SS as
    the last defenders of the Reich Chancellery by Jean Mabire
28. Die Brandenburger: Eine deutsche Kommandotruppe zbV. 800 by
    Helmuth Spater
29. Waffen-SS im Bild
30. Die Divisionen der Waffen-SS 1940-1945 by H. Walther
31. An Deutscher Seite: International Volunteers of the Wehrmacht and
    Waffen-SS by Hans-Werner Neubau
32. Kameraden bis zum Ende by Otto Weidinger
33. Die Leibstandarte (1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf
    Hitler) by Rudolf Lehmann (2 volumes)
34. Vorwaerts Prinz Eugen (History of the 7th SS Mountain Division
    "Prinz Eugen") by Otto Kumm
35. Soldaten, Kaempfer, Kameraden: Marsch und Kaempfe der SS
    Totenkopf Division (6 volumes)
36. Europaeische Freiwillige im Bild by Heinz Ertel and Richard
    Schulze-Kossens
37. Panzergrenadiere der Panzerdivision "Wiking" im Bild
38. Gebirsjaeger im Bild: 6th SS Mountain Division "Nord" 1940-1945
    by Alfred Stevrink
39. Pionier der Waffen-SS im Bild
40. Die Guten Glaubens Waren (History of the 4th SS Police Division
    of the Waffen-SS 1939-1945)
41. Regiment Deutschland 1934-1945
42. Zwoelf Jahre 1. Kompanie Leibestandarte SS Adolf Hitler
43. SS-Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 5 in der Panzer Division "Wiking"
    by Gunter Bernau
44. Jagdflieger Oberst Werner Moelders by Ernst Obermeier


                   Novels

The Don Flows Home to the Sea by Mikhail Sholokhov


That is it for the Eastern Front. Tomorrow I will post to you what I
have on Bradley.

Hope this has been of interest. If there are any questions, please
don't hesitate to ask.

BTW, I have supplemented all my reading with corresponding with as
many of these vets, from all branches of the service, who are or were
alive at the time I acquired their book(s). In many cases, the books
listed above contain a personal dedication from the author.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:08:50 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 11-09-94

> 1944
> 11/09 Thu.  German submarine sunk:
>              U-537, by submarine FLOUNDER (SS-251), Java Sea,
>               07 d. 13'S., 115 d. 17'E.
>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> tkeller@logicon.com
>

Does anyone know what U-537 was doing in the Java Sea?
Was it on the way to Japan?  Was it hauling something
of importance?

Just wondering...

patrick
marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 10:21:31 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: OOPS!  45,000 lb Bomb

I looked through my books the other day and found some things,

the bomb load for a B-36 is 84,000 pounds, almost enough to carry
two of the suckers.

a reference to the B-29 being modified to carry two 22,000 bombs under
the wings, no reference to how slow or how many other B-29s had to pull it
:), but as we have found references in two separate works, I think it might
have been considered for operational use, anyone else see any references
for this B-29/22,000 combo?

my reference for the bomb refers to a 45,000 pound bomb, so I think I
found it, but it doesn't say if it was ever used, only developed in
WWII.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:31:22 -0400
From:    Boris Raymond <BRAYMOND@AC.DAL.CA>
Subject: Japanese cannibalism in the South Pacific?

Some 6 months ago I ran across a newpaper item in re
an Australian book that was just coming out about
cannibalism among some Japanese forces by-passed
by the Allies in the South Pacific.  Since then I've
not been able to trace it in any standard sources like
Books-in-Print, etc.  Has anyone any knowledge of such
an intem?
        Many thanks,  Boris Raymond - Dalhousie University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 10:20:49 -0500
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: GEN:  Marshal Rokossovsky

Hi all,

Wasn't Marshal Rokossavsky involved in the Stalingrad campaign?

This is what I recollect on Rokossavsky:

He was reportedly a target of Stalin's purge in the late '30's.  He was
interrogated at length but refused ever to sign a statement admitting
complicity in an anti-Soviet plot.  The NKVD knocked all of his teeth
out, broke most of his ribs, and sent him to the Gulag expecting him to
die.

After the Germans invaded Russia and reached the gates of Moscow,
Rolossavsky, a reknowned tank/mobile warfare expert, was recalled from
the Gulag (Zhukov's idea?), and helped in throwing the Germans back in
the Russian winter counteroffensive.

I understand that Rokossovsky was the Marshal of the 1st Belorussian
Front in 1944.  Can anyone fill in the blanks here?

I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks again.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:27:59 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: P-40's captured by Japan

Steve-
You mentioned that the Japanese took some captured P-40's to the Home
Islands for evaluation and Air Defense.  Do you know how many and did
they actually use any against attacking American planes?

TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 12:52:24 -0600
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 2

West central Illinois was selected as the site for Camp Ellis because of
its nearness to the railroad center at Galesburg and its topography was
best suited for the camp's training program.  However, there were also
some disadvantages.  Rural Fulton County was not equipped to handle the
massive influx of people that came after the camp opened.  Army wives,
most with babies, encountered a lack of dependents' housing and were
forced to live in trailers, converted stores, and garages.  Miner Brock
became a self-appointed one-man housing authority in Ipava and found
quarters for three hundred.  Besides the housing shortage, Camp Ellis men
also discovered that the Ipava area offered limited off-base recreation.
Soldiers were forced to travel fifty miles or more to patronize fourteen
USO centers in Peoria, Quincy, Galesburg, Jacksonville, Havana, Macomb,
and Springfield.  To prevent soldiers on weekend passes from sleeping on
the courthouse lawn, Peoria County opened its jail to them.  In July 1943,
seventy-six Ellis men slept in the jail on beds brought over from the
camp.  Finally, the Jim Crow laws presented their own problems for rural
Fulton County.  Only 116 Negroes lived in Fulton County and almost all of
them were located in two townships.  There were no separate hotels,
restaurants, drug stores, or taverns.  The county seat, Lewistown, an
all-white community, opened it restaurants, taverns, and theaters to
colored servicemen.

Sources:
Knowles, Judy.  "Camp Ellis."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 12 (April 1959): 173.

Richey, John.  "Spoon River Camp."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 20 (April 1967):
159-60.

Roberts, Delbert.  "Remember When..."  MACOMB JOURNAL, 5 October 1994.

Waterson, Michele.  "Camp Ellis: Built for World War II."  ILLINOIS
HISTORY 36 (November 1982): 45-46.

Watters, Mary.  ILLINOIS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.  Vol. 1, OPERATION
HOME FRONT.  Vol. 2, THE PRODUCTION FRONT.  Springfield, Ill.: Illinois
State Historical Library, 1951-52.

Stay tuned.  There's more to come.
Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 13:02:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN:  Marshal Rokossovsky

Hello, Emery!

Will try to answer your question.


> Wasn't Marshal Rokossavsky involved in the Stalingrad campaign?

    I don't think so. Chuikov and Zhukov were primarily responsible
for the Soviet conduct of the fight.

> He was reportedly a target of Stalin's purge in the late '30's.  He was
> interrogated at length but refused ever to sign a statement admitting
> complicity in an anti-Soviet plot.  The NKVD knocked all of his teeth
> out, broke most of his ribs, and sent him to the Gulag expecting him to
> die.

    That is correct. Only with the advent of the war, was
Rokossovskiy saved from death or execution, as were others. Stalin
found that the exigencies of the situation required a radical
readjustment of his prior feelings.

> After the Germans invaded Russia and reached the gates of Moscow,
> Rolossavsky, a reknowned tank/mobile warfare expert, was recalled from
> the Gulag (Zhukov's idea?), and helped in throwing the Germans back in
> the Russian winter counteroffensive.

    That was Zhukov. It was here that Zhukov made his reputation,
and, I am taking this from memory, Rokossovsky was a subordinate
officer who may or may not have had an influence on the outcome of
the struggle before Moscow. It was only through

  1) Zhukov's draconian measures that saved Moscow from capture
combined with

  2) the infusion or transfer of massive forces from the Siberian
Steppe, thanks to Richard Sorge, to bolster the front before Moscow

    that saved the situation.


> I understand that Rokossovsky was the Marshal of the 1st Belorussian
> Front in 1944.  Can anyone fill in the blanks here?

    I can, but specific info is not available here. It is all at
home. Will post, if someone else hasn't by tomorrow.


    More later.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 19:11:43 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

> 27. Berlin im Todeskampf 1945: French Volunteers of the Waffen-SS as
>     the last defenders of the Reich Chancellery by Jean Mabire

This one is in French too (originally). I don't recommend Jean Mabire as
serious History. This is mostly pro-German propaganda. The Author is
fascinated by the SS and has writen numerous books with titles such as
"The Fuhrer's young wolves", "The Panzers of the Black Guard" etc...(I have
two of them).

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 14:55:33 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 2

I am really enjoying this series of articles about this camp in
Illinois.  I grew up in Quincy, and my father was in grade school at the
the time this was all occuring in Beardstown, which is in this area.  I
remember my dad and grandparents telling the story of a German prisoner
who escaped from a nearby Prisoner of War camp and that "he passed right
down the street by our house" in Beardstown.  Do you have any
information regarding the escape.  I can not tell you the year or any
more details.  What made it even more scary was my dad was sleeping on
the porch--just feet from the crazed nazi fanatic escapee.  Looking back
it is funny--probably the only thing he would have done is steal some
food, but then again hindsight takes the buzz out of a lot of things.
TAS

PS--for the gent who wanted the information about the M-5--I need a
couple days to get in touch with my friends who know the guy who has the
tank.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 16:04:33 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN:  Marshal Rokossovsky

        Rokossovsky was in command of one of the two Soviet fronts that
launched the Stalingrad counteroffensive-- I believe the one operating south of
the city against the Rumanian 4th Army, although I'm away from my sources here.
There should be someone on the list who can provide better detail.  Also, if I
recall correctly Rokossovsky was the man in charge of the Soviet armies
encircling the city after the German 6th Army got trapped there, who
eventually reduced the surrounded Axis forces to surrender.
        Chuikov commanded the 62nd Army directly defending Stalingrad in the
fall of '42, but the counteroffensive was launched with larger forces (front
rather than army commands) and was not under his direct control except for
tactical questions concerning 62nd Army.  BTW, here are a few other good
sources from the Soviet side:
        Chuikov, Valeri "Stalingrad"
        Zhukhov, Georgi "Memoirs"
        Shtemenko, ?    "The Last Six Months"  (Shtemenko was one of two
concurrently serving Deputy Chiefs of Staff-- sorry I don't have the first name
but can easily get it if anyone's interested)
        There are also a lot of other Soviet titles available in English-- I'd
be happy to print a short list if anyone is interested (be prepared for a lot
of dry Party-line stuff, suspicious statistics-- I think they killed the entire
Wehrmacht three or four times over, if you ever added up the numbers engagement
by engagement-- not that that was unusual, of course, I've read similar
comments about US "body counts" in Vietnam adding up to two or three times the
total North Vietnamese population-- BTW, the previous remark is in no way
intended to kindle a political discussion over 'Nam, just an illustration, like
the recent posts on fighter group "kill" claims, to show that in war truth is
often the first casualty, as the saying goes--       anyway, if you're up for
reading about how enlightened Comrade Stalin's war leadership really was drop
me a line and I'll post a reading list from the Russian side....

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 15:48:13 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Comet Line

    Dear Arnaud,
           Do you happen to know which station broadcasted the Andree de
   Jongh interview? As my luck would have it, a close friend of mine is
   going to France next Wednesday and again in January. If I can find a
   way to get a copy of that taping, I will be very happy.

          In other news, there is a book entitled: The Little Cyclone
   for those interested in Andree de Jongh and the Comet Line.

   Take care.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 17:00:27 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 3

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  09-Nov-1994 05:00pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/TLB, Pt. 3


    [While I stated in the last post that TLB was the weakest of the three
    battle books, I do not mean to imply it was not a good book.  What I
    mean is that TLB did not sell as well, was not translated into as many
    languages, and was not turned into a movie.  The latter was not for
    want of Ryan's trying.  With the huge success of TLD, Ryan was
    approached right after the publication of TLB to put together a
    screenplay.  Ryan felt he had been screwed by Zanuck for TLD because he
    was only paid a lump $150,000 for the movie rights, screenplay, and
    consulting on the set while the movie (and Zanuck) made millions.  This
    time with an agent, Ryan expected a better return.  This time, though,
    there was a new wrinkle: two movies would be shot using many of the
    same sets.  Therefore TLB would happen if a script and financing for
    _Armageddon_ happened.  Ryan tried mightily to come up with an
    acceptable script for _Armageddon_ but finally admitted failure,
    claiming the book was so poorly written nothing much could be done with
    it.  Additionally, financing never came through.  Thus TLB on the big
    screen was not to be.
         In our exhibit last June a number of the stories accompanied
    photographs which were integral to telling the stories.  Below is an
    attempt to verbally describe several of those stories.]


         Ryan found two people who became very important to the issue of
    what really happened to Hitler at the end.  For years there were tales
    that he had survived the battle for Berlin, escaped, and was in hiding
    in one of dozens of possible places.  While a few people (and several
    news magazines) still insist Hitler lived - and sings duets with
    Elvis - most of us would agree the evidence of his death is conclusive.
    Ryan learned that the Soviets knew very soon after the Berlin battle
    that they had Hitler's body and positively identified it.  This was
    done by having Hitler's dentist and his assistant, Kathe Heusermann,
    draw Hitler's bridgework which was compared to the charred remains for
    proof of the body.  Ryan found the dentist and Kathe and had them
    reproduce the drawings, the originals of which are now in the
    Collection.  What was not brought out was that Kathe paid for her help
    by having to endure 11 years of solitary confinement in a Soviet
    prison.

         Glyn Hughes, medical officer of the British 2nd Army (referred to
    in the last post describing what he found at Belsen) also passed along
    to Ryan a story and two photographs of considerable emotional power.
    The first photo was of a woman, her daughter, and her husband at what
    appears to be a vacation trip before the war.  They are all wearing
    bathing suits.  The second photo is as horrifying as it is a symbol of
    the will to live.  It is the same woman in a hospital ward,
    unbelievably emaciated and naked, but standing mostly erect and facing
    the camera.  Here is what Hughes wrote on the back of that photo:
         "This wretched festering body and unhinged mind is all that is
    left of Margit Schwartz, thirty-one years old, born of Jewish parents
    in Budapest.  That she is still alive is both incredible and
    unfortunate.  She is almost completely mad and one of the few things
    that makes an impression upon her mind is a photograph of herself which
    is obviously her choicest posession.  Whan a camera was produced before
    her she did an incredible thing.  Although she had been unable to move
    and has to be fed and even turned in her bed by the nursing sister, she
    not only climbed out of bed unaided, but managed to stand in a position
    approximating that taken formerly in the old photograph, while the
    cameraman took her picture.
         She recovered."

    That's enough for this installment.

    Doug



Received:  09-Nov-1994 05:00pm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 15:13:50 MST
From:    Eric Pass <epass@NYX.CS.DU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN:  Marshal Rokossovsky

Mike Yaklich mention V.I. Chuikov's book "Stalingrad".

I think the translated version was also published in the early 60's
out of Britain entitled "The Beginning of the Road".  I think
there
even another English language version besides these two.  This was
one of the first books told from the Russian side of the Eastern
Front and even though Chuikov was in a command position, the horrific
flavour of the Battle for Stalingrad comes through.

Regards,
  Eric (epass@nyx.cs.du.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 08:52:33 +1100
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Air Ace's death

  This just came out in an RAAF association newslater and I don't recall having
seen it on the list previously.
    Clive "killer" Caldwell DSO DFC and Bar, Polish Cross of Valour Australia's
leading WWII air ace died August 5 aged 84.
    Because of his shooting ability he acquired the nickname "killer",a tag he
did not like but was unable to shake off. He was 30 when the war began an
considered to old for pilot training. He reduced his age by 3 years on the
application and was accepted.Commissioned as a PLTOFF he embarked for the
middle east in Feb 1941 and was posted to RAF 250SQN flying Tomahawks. He
flew 30 missions before his first victory which came when returning from a
mission escorting Blenheims when the force was attacked by 30 ME109's. By
december he had 7.5 swastikas on his cockpit. On DEC 5 he was leading a patrol
of 19 Tomahawks from 250 and 112 SQNs when they encountered a force of 60
Junkers 87's and their ME109 escorts. They shot down 27 Junkers and Caldwell
got 5. He was returned to Australia with 20.5 credits and made WGCDR joining
No. 1 fighter Wing as its wing leader in Darwin and his score rose to 28.5.
    After the war he did not fly even as a hobby and his friends stated that he
was not overly keen on it-he was just very good at it .....RIP
Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:59:16 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: TACT:Halsey

Sorry if I missed something in the previous conversations, but what became
of Halsey after his disastrous generalship at Leyte ?
Did the eventual victory help forget it ? Did his past fighting record help
him ? Or was he relegated to other commands ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 16:44:15 -0600
From:    Mark Parillo <parillo@KSU.KSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese cannibalism in the South Pacific?

On Wed, 9 Nov 1994, Boris Raymond wrote:

> Some 6 months ago I ran across a newpaper item in re
> an Australian book that was just coming out about
> cannibalism among some Japanese forces by-passed
> by the Allies in the South Pacific.  Since then I've
> not been able to trace it in any standard sources like
> Books-in-Print, etc.  Has anyone any knowledge of such
> an intem?
>         Many thanks,  Boris Raymond - Dalhousie University
>

The Military Analysis Division of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey wrote
in its report "The Effect of Air Action on Japanese Ground Army
Logistics," dated 22 March 1946 (pp. 22-23, entry 1c13a, Section 2, USSBS,
Record Group 243 of the U.S. National Archives) that cannibalism had begun
occurring as early as mid-1942. Unfortunately, there's not much
amplification of that topic in the document.

Also, John Toland recounts in _The Rising Sun_ the thoughts of
cannibalism that tormented a hungry soldier retreating from American
forces in the Philippines (on Cebu, I believe). I don't have the source
with me, so I can't give you an exact citation. Numerous accounts of the
great hunger suffered by Japanese troops in the field have survived, many
of them in diaries captured during operations such as the ill-fated
Kohima-Imphal campaign. I have seen no references to cannibalism in any
of them, but then again one would hardly expect that sort of thing to be
committed to paper.

There are also accounts of Allied POWs resorting to vampirism or drinking
urine when maddened by extreme thirst, such as in the sealed holds of
merchantmen traveling through tropical waters or when cast adrift by
torpedoing of their vessel. Horrible conditions will produce normally
unthinkable behavior.

  - Mark Parillo
    Department of History
    Kansas State University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 10 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 B-25s pound storage buildings and
the town area of Wanling, Burma. In China, 130+ P-40s, P-38s, and P-51s on
armed reconnaissance over S China attack river, road and rail traffic,
storage, airfield and villages at or near Tingka, Chefang, Kweilin, Yoyang,
Nanyo, Changsha, Paoching, Kweihsien, Yungfu, Wuchou, Siangtan, Tanchuk,
Mosun, Kweiping, Yuncheng, Chenghsien, Hankow, and Chikhom.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 60+ P-47s again attack a
variety of targets including Japanese concentrations at Bhamo, Indaw, Hkapra,
and Nawngtao, the town of Naba Station, bridges at Meza and in the Kawlin
area, and targets of opportunity along the Irrawaddy River and along the
railroad corridor in N Burma and support ground forces S of Bhamo; transports
fly 250+ sorties to forward areas; the 20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron,
8th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, that has been operating from Tingkawk
Sakan since Jun 44 with P-40s, returns to base at Myitkyina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 709: 752 bombers and 808 fighters in 3 forces are dispatched to
make PFF attack on airfields in W Germany; 4 bombers are lost.
  1. 302 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Langendiebach Airfield at Hanau
(229); 61 hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Hanau; 1 B-24 is lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 46 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2 WIA and 9 MIA.
Escort is provided by 261 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 4-0-0 aircraft without
loss.
  2. 235 B-17s are dispatched to hit Wiesbaden Airfield (105); 73 hit the
secondary, Wiesbaden/Halle; 4 others hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are
lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 90 damaged; 7 airmen are WIA and 20 MIA.
Escort is provided by 142 of 154 P-51s without loss.
  3. 203 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Butzweilerhof (96) and Ostheim (97)
Airfields at Cologne; 1 B-17s is lost and 95 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 5 WIA
and 9 MIA. Escort is provided by 182 of 191 P-51s; they claim 2-0-0 aircraft
without loss.
  4. 12 of 12 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  5. 79 of 87 P-47s hit communications targets in N and C Germany; they claim
1-0-0 aircraft on the ground.
  6. 35 P-51s fly a scouting force mission.
  7. 58 of 60 P-51s make strafing runs in Germany.
  Mission 711: 6 B_17s and 9 B-24s (1 abort) drop leaflets on the Netherlands
and Germany during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 150+ bombers dispatched against
an ordnance arsenal and camp area are recalled due to weather; 7 others drop
leaflets; the XXIX Tactical Air Command attacks railroads while the XIX
Tactical Air Command escorts bombers and supports the 80th and 5th Infantry
Divisions in the US Third Army assault in the Metz, France area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Continued bad weather limits
operations to reconnaissance missions and reconnaissance escorts by P-38s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): HQ and HQ Squadron, XII Tactical
Air Command; HQ and HQ Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing; 324th Fighter Group;
415th Night Fighter Squadron; 11th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron; and
several signal, fighter control, and service units are relieved from duty
with the Twelfth AF and assigned to the European Theater of Operations, US
Army (ETOUSA) and the First Tactical Air Force (Provisional).
  In Italy, medium bombers continue the interdiction campaign against
railways in NE Italy, principally the Brenner Pass, Brenta River and Po River
bridges, rail ferry at Ostiglia, and several dumps; fighter-bombers hit rail
targets and guns at several points in Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 27 Saipan Island-based B-24s pound Iwo Jima
Island. In the Palau Islands, 6 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Koror Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-25s and A-20s
over Ceram Island bomb Haroekoe Airfield, Piroe, and targets of opportunity
on the S coast. In the Philippine Islands, fighter-bombers again hit Ormoc
Bay, Leyte Island shipping while B-25s join US Navy aircraft in shipping
strikes throughout the same area; at least 3 destroyers are claimed sunk;
B-24s in the area bomb the town of Ormoc; the 19th and 33d Bombardment
Squadrons (Heavy), 22d Bombardment Group (Heavy), move from Owi, Schouten
Islands to Leyte Island with B-24s; the 460th Fighter Squadron, 348th Fighter
Group, moves from Noemfoor Island to Tacloban, Leyte Island with P-47s; the
500th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves
from Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte with B-25s (squadron continues operating
from Biak). The 371st, 372d and 424th Bombardment Squadrons, 307th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), move from Wakde Island to Morotai Island with
B-24s (squadrons are operating from Noemfoor Island).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

10/0112Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:21:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Submarines

>From the US NAVY NEWS SERVICE


NNS752.  Kings Bay Ceremonial Pavilion Honors WWII Sub Vets
KINGS BAY, Georgia (NNS) -- During a 4 Nov 94, memorial ceremony in Kings
Bay, Georgia honoring World War II submarine Sailors, living and dead, Rear
Admiral Jerry Ellis, Commander, Submarine Group 10, announced that the
ceremonial pavilion under which everyone was standing was to be forever
known as the "Submarine Veterans of World War II Memorial Pavilion."
     Fifty-two submarines were lost during WWII, with more than 3,500 men.
Thirty-eight of the boats were lost with all hands, more than 2,200 men.
Fourteen of these submarines were lost in one year, 1944, and eight were
lost in 1945.  The submariners of WWII paid a heavy price, but they also
helped turn the tide of the war, sinking more than 5.5 million tons of
Japanese naval and merchant shipping.
     "Submariners of today and the future will never forget the sacrifices
of our World War II submariners," said Rear Admiral Ellis.  "I am proud to
be able to dedicate this building to our World War II submariners, and
their fallen comrades.  This area will always serve as a testimonial to
their sacrifices and their legacy."


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:58:32 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY

On the eve of the 219th birthday of the Marine Corps, I want to sent birthday
greetings to my fellow Marines. In his birthday message to the Corps, and all
Marines, General Carl E. Mundy, Jr., Commandant of the Marine Corps, said: Some
things never change. Today, we Marines begin our 220th year of life...and we
continue to stand prepared for further action. On this 219th birthday of the
Corps, therefore, I charge all who wear the Marine green to stand tall. You're
United States Marines; and highest success in the ventures you face will
continue to be your hallmark." Happy birthday, Marines! Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 21:30:34 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: JAPANESE CANNIBALISM I

If you will check in Robert Sherrod's "History of Marine Corps Aviation in
World War II," you will find the story about cannibalism amongst certain
Japanese officers on Chichi Jima, who apparently feasted off the organs of
downed Navy fliers. Apparently one Japanese officer was so ashamed of what had
gone on, he informed on the others to the U.S. surrender group which came to
accept the surrender of the island. I know of no other such incident in the
Pacific in WWII. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:40:25 -0600
From:    Bob Milan <bmilan@MINET.GOV.MB.CA>
Subject: Eastern Front Books

Several years ago I read a book called "The Hot Snow" by a Soviet author.
It was a fascinating book about the encirclement of the German Army at
Stalingrad. I cannot remember the author's name nor do I recall whether
the book was fiction or not. Can anyone help me re-locate this book?

______________________________________________________________________________
Bob Milan                               E-Mail : BMilan@Minet.gov.mb.ca
Kelvin High School-Economics/History    Phone  : (204) 474-1492
155 Kingsway Ave.                       Fax    : (204) 453-2116
Winnipeg, Manitoba
CANADA
______________________________________________________________________________
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands
it. ...Albert Einstein

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:02:50 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: TACT:HALSEY

Arnaud, a board was set up to review Halsey's actions or lack of them in
commanding his task force in the storm. It was recommended that he be relieved
and court-martialed, but this was overruled by Secretary of the Navy James
Forrestal, who felt that to do such a thing to a genuine hero and great
commander in the midst of a war would be conterproductive and would have a
negative influence on U.S. morale. But Halsey's fellow admirals and certainly
Nimitz let him know in no uncertain terms that he had really blew it for a
second time. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 19:03:16 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

"Paul Carell" is actually a pen name. The author's actual last name is
Schmidt (can't recall his first name) and my information is that during
the war he worked for Goebbel's Propaganda Ministry!  I have read most of
his works available in English and they do show a definite "german bias".
Hardly surprising in view of the former career of the author!  I consider
them better for colorful detail than accurate analysis.  I am surprised
they're now so costly; they used to be available in Bantam paperback
editions.  Have you tried used-book stores or libraries?
Jim Curry




On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, SYSTEM OPERATOR wrote:

> > Hitler Moves East, 1941-1943 by Paul Carrell
>
> What do you think of Paul Carrell's books ? Are they german-biased or really
> fair ? Given their price, I have always hesitated to buy them.
>
> Arnaud.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 1994 23:36:00 EST
From:    Robert Quirk <QUIRK@A1.ATWINN.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: Japanese cannibalism in the South Pacific?

From:   NAME: Robert Quirk
        FUNC: IRAP-NRC
        TEL: (204) 983-4150                   <QUIRK@A1@ATWINN>
To:     NAME: IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU <IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU"@NRCNET@MRGATE@ATOTT2>

You will not find the book in "Books-in-Print" since it is not yet printed in
English, only in Japanese.

The author is a professor at the university of Melbourne.

I could not find an E-mail address for him, so I sent an inquiry to the head of
history at the military college in Australia.

Here is his reply:

From: p-dennis@adfa.oz.au
Subject: Tanaka

"I consulted my colleague in Japanese history, Dr Stewart Lone who advises
me that Tanaka's book has not yet been published in English. Professor
Tanaka (who apparently usually calls himself Yuki Tanaka) has given several
papers in Australia, in particular last year, and Dr Lone suggests you
approach Tanaka directly to ask for copies of his papers."

I have not followed up yet.

Hope this helps you.

Robert Quirk

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Nov 1994 to 9 Nov 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 9 Nov 1994 to 10 Nov 1994
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Status: O

There are 38 messages totalling 1563 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: P-40's captured by Japan
  2. Battle of the Bulge
  3. INF: USN Chronology 11-10-94
  4. WEAP: CV-17  USS Bunker Hill
  5. TV Alert Canada--Profile of a Canadian in theFrench Resistance
  6. MEDIA: History on Discovery (2)
  7. WEAP: CV's 8 & 12
  8. INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-NOV-1944
  9. Japanese cannibalism in the South Pacific?
 10. P-38's in the Pacific (Part-1)
 11. Eastern Front Books (2)
 12. Wargamers!  Luftwaffe Stragedy question.. (3)
 13. Radio communications/Rhine River area (2)
 14. Ref: WWIIHRS National Battle
 15. MEDIA:V-1 Found
 16. MEDIA:V-1 Cont'd
 17. European Trip Report (2)
 18. Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 3
 19. Komets
 20. Women in the Resistance Movement (2)
 21. TACT: HALSEY (2)
 22. Zero name: Thanks
 23. Comet Line (2)
 24. Rokossovsky
 25. Wargamers! Luftwaffe Stragedy question..
 26. help
 27. WEAP: Komet
 28. Memorial Day, 1994
 29. Italian marines in WW2 (San Marco Regt)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 00:06:00 EST
From:    Robert Quirk <QUIRK@A1.ATWINN.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P-40's captured by Japan

From:   NAME: Robert Quirk
        FUNC: IRAP-NRC
        TEL: (204) 983-4150                   <QUIRK@A1@ATWINN>
To:     NAME: IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU <IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU"@NRCNET@MRGATE@ATOTT2>

>From "Bloody Shambles, Volume 2" by C. Shores, B. Cull, and Y. Izawa
Grub Street, 1993
page 439
Referring to aircraft captured in Java:
"Subsequently, examples of many of these aircraft, together with a B-17D and a
P-40E, were despatched to Japan for evaluation and to be put on display."

Pages 440, 443, and 446 have photographs of the various aircraft; the nose of
a P-40 appears in one photograph.

Cheers

Robert Quirk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 00:12:00 -0500
From:    Jeff Guimarin <JeffG88635@AOL.COM>
Subject: Battle of the Bulge

Just a few comments about the PBS documentary "The Battle of The Bulge,"
played tonight.

In my studies and reading, I find myself easily overlooking the hardships
endured by infantryman.  Once again, I was guilty of this in regards to the
massive German offensive into the Ardennes during December of 1944.  The
documentary served as a stunning reminder that war truly is hell.  The
accounts of the American servicemen really shed light on my ignorance of what
the troops endured during this time.

For starters, I was shocked at the lack of winter supplies not readily
available for the front line.  I cannot really comprehend how these many of
these men fought in the bitter cold and struggled through snow drifts with
the same boots they had worn since wading onto the Normandy beaches.  I have
read so many accounts of how the Germans endured such hardships in the
Russian winters and I had always assumed that the Allied troops were much
better prepared for winter campaigns.  However, now that I think about it,
this was really the first winter campaign that the Allies experienced.  True,
the Italian campaign saw its share of brutal winter weather, but was it ever
as bad as the blizzard conditions in Belgium during the Ardennes offensive?
 In addition, was there such a shortage of equipment and supplies, that the
medical corps was forced to extract peniclin from the urine of wounded men
for re-use, as described by the narrarator?

The documentary brought up some interesting points that were truly revealing
as to the conditions existing during this grueling struggle.  I found the
interviews of the veterans to be very strong and compassionate.  I am not
surprised by their statements that the days they spent holding onto and then
finally reclaiming the ground were the most vivid memories of their lives.

One facet that was briefly discussed, that really deserved considerable more
time relates to the efforts made by medical personnel to put emotionally
stressed or "shell-shocked" troops back in to the line.  It is a frightening
thought how they were treated and ushered back by means of a dose of sodium
pentathol, a "good nap" and subliminal messages while in a deep sleep.
 Understanding of the psychological conditions of these men was still
obviously a practice of medieval medicine.

These are just a few of my immediate observations concerning this
documentary.  On the whole, I found it very interesting and insightlful. The
eerie scenes of shifting from vintage black and white film of infantrymen
crossing snow covered fields to present day stills of the same countryside
serve to remind one that the ghosts of the Bulge should never be forgotten.

Just another WWII buff--Jeff G.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-10-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/10 Fri.  United States naval vessels sunk:
             PT-321, by grounding, Leyte area, P. I.,
              11 d. 25'N., 124 d. 19'E.;
              sunk by United States forces.
             Ammunition  ship  MOUNT HOOD (AE-11), by explosion,
             Manus, Admiralty Islands.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 11, by Army aircraft,
              Ormoc Bay area, P, I.
             Patrol boat NO. 46, by submarine GREENLING (SS-
              213), off Honshu, Japan,
              34 d. 30'N., 138 d. 34'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 06:35:32 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: CV-17  USS Bunker Hill

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. I, 1964, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

BUNKER HILL (CV-17)

dp. 27,100;
l. 872';
b. 93';
dr. 28' 7";
s. 32.7 k.;
cpl. 3448;
a. 12 5";
cl. ESSEX

BUNKER HILL (CV-17) was launched 7 December 1942 by Bethlehem Steel Co.,
Quincy, Mass.; sponsored by Mrs. Donald Boynton; and commissioned 24 May
1943, Captain J. J. Ballentine in command.

Reporting to the Pacific in the fall of 1943 BUNKER HILL participated in
carrier operations during the Rabaul strike (11 November 1943);  Gilbert
Islands operation, including support of the landings on Tarawa (13
November-8 December); the Kavieng strikes in support of the Bismarck
Archipelago operation (25 December 1943, 1 and 4 January 1944);
Marshall Islands operation (29 January-8 February); strikes against Truk
(17-18 February); Palau-Yap-Ulithi-Woleai raids (30 March-1 April);
Truk-Satawan-Ponape (29 April-1 May); Hollandia operation (21-28 April);
and Marianas operation (12 June-10 August), including the Battle of the
Philippine Sea.  On 19 June 1944, during the opening phases of the
battle, BUNKER HILL was damaged when an enemy near miss scattered
shrapnel fragments across the ship. Two men were killed and over 80 were
wounded.  BUNKER HILL continued to do battle and her planes aided in
sinking one Japanese carrier and destroying a part of the 475 Japanese
aircraft that were downed.  During September she participated in the
Western Caroline Islands operation and then launched strikes at Okinawa,
Luzon, and Formosa until November.

On 6 November BUNKER HILL retired from the forward area and steamed to
Bremerton, Wash., for a period of yard availability.  Repairs completed,
she departed the west coast 24 January 1945 and returned to the war
front.  During the remaining months of World War II BUNKER HILL
participated in the Iwo Jima operation and the 5th Fleet raids against
Honshu and the Nansei Shoto (15 February-4 March); and the 5th and 3rd
Fleet raids in support of the Okinawan operation.  On 7 April 1945
BUNKER HILL's planes took part in a fast carrier task force attack on a
Japanese naval force in the East China Sea.  The enemy battleship
YAMATO, one cruiser, and four destroyers were sunk.

On the morning of 11 May 1945, while supporting the Okinawa invasion,
BUNKER HILL was hit and severely damaged by two suicide planes.
Gasoline fires flamed up and several explosions took place.  The ship
suffered the loss of 346 men killed, 43 missing, and 264 wounded.
Although badly crippled she managed to return to Bremerton via Pearl
Harbor.

In September BUNKER HILL reported for duty with the "Magic-Carpet"
fleet.  She remained on this duty as a unit of TG 16.12 returning
veterans from the Pacific until January 1946 when she was ordered to
Bremerton for inactivation.  She was placed out of commission in reserve
there 9 January 1947.

BUNKER HILL received the Presidential Unit Citation for the period 11
November 1943 to 11 May 1945.  In addition, she received 11 Battle stars
for her World War II service.

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 08:27:16 ADT
From:    Joanne Brown <BROWNJM@ADMIN1.UNBSJ.CA>
Subject: TV Alert Canada--Profile of a Canadian in theFrench Resistance

I forget the name of the show, I think it's Witness, or Man Alive or
something of that nature.  It seems to profile the story of a
Saskatchewan native who worked in Resistance activities in France
during WWII.  It's scheduled for tonight (Thursday) in the early
evening.

I love stories about the Resistance and escape networks
like the O'Leary and Comet lines.  Anybody up to chatting?

Joanne Brown


Joanne Brown, Reference Department
Ward Chipman Library
University of New Brunswick
Saint John, N.B. CANADA
Ph: (506)  648-5718
Fax:(506)  648- 5701
email: brownjm@admin1.unbsj.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 07:32:19 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: History on Discovery

     Last night, while watching a fascinating special on Bikini Atoll,
     (from the bomb drops, to finding the old wrecks, to attempts to clean
     up the islands, to the terrible impact this has all had on the
     original Bikini Islanders (Probably the last helpless victims of the
     Big Power struggle of WWII.  They still can't go home, the island is
     currently safe to visit, but the entire food chain still carries
     unsafe levels of radioactive contaminants.)

     Anyway, while all this is going on, they break in to announce a
     Normandy Invasion special, "In the words of the men who fought
     there...".

     The Discover Channel (Those nice people who bring us Weekday Wings)
     Saturday, 12 November 94
     7:00 PM Eastern / 8:00 PM Central / (19:00 for Ben Frank)

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 07:32:33 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: CV's 8 & 12

     Jorge,

     I was unable to translate the pictures using the UUDECODE.EXE program
     that I own.

     Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 04:34:42 -0800
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-NOV-1944

On 11-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the US 3rd Army sector, the offensive by the XX Corps
continues. Units of the 95th Division establish a bridgehead over the Moselle
near Thionville. The 6th Armoured Division with support from the 80th Division
establishes bridgeheads over the river Nied.

Philippines (Leyte) - A Japanese convoy is attacked off Ormoc by aircraft
from TF 38. Four destroyers and one minesweeper are sunk as well as five
transports with nearly 10,000 troops.

Pacific - A squadron of cruisers and destroyers commanded by Rear-Admiral A.E.
Smith shells Japanese airfields and coastal installations on the island of Iwo
Jima.

Burma - The British 36th Division is forced to halt after an unsuccessful
attempt to outflank the Japanese positions in the Pinwe area.

China - Aircraft of the US 14th Air Force attack Hungyang airfield making it
unusable for the Japanese bombers.

The Homefront
-------------
Wisconsin Player Dies - Allan J. Shafer, 17 year-old University of Wisconsin
quaterback, has died of internal injuries in Madison, Wisconsin a few hours
after being hurt in the second quarter of the Wisconsin-Iowa football game.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 09:40:44 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Japanese cannibalism in the South Pacific?

> Also, John Toland recounts in _The Rising Sun_ the thoughts of
> cannibalism that tormented a hungry soldier retreating from American
> forces in the Philippines (on Cebu, I believe). I don't have the source
> with me, so I can't give you an exact citation. Numerous accounts of the
> great hunger suffered by Japanese troops in the field have survived, many
> of them in diaries captured during operations such as the ill-fated
> Kohima-Imphal campaign. I have seen no references to cannibalism in any
> of them, but then again one would hardly expect that sort of thing to be
> committed to paper.

The post-war Japanese film "Fires on the Plain" revolves around the awful
conditions for the Japanese troops, and the resultant cannibalism.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:06:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: P-38's in the Pacific (Part-1)

Attempting to respond to the question "What did the P-38 do outside
the ETO?" is a pretty tall order.  To find a source short enough for
E:mail but broad enough to at least cover the main points I resorted
to magazine articles, and found this to be the best in my collection.




Wings Magazine
4 August 1978

"The P-38 Lightning in the Pacific, the Aleutians, China-Burma-India

By,
Warren M. Bodie


Author's Note: What began as a modest series with no more than five
or six parts just seemed to grow like Topsy. This dissertation on
the development and service history of the Lockheed P-38 was
originally launched because so much erroneous information had been
published and republished (if not plagiarized) about the Lightning
over a period of 35 or more years that it was close to being an
affront to serious aviation historians. However, as the data
developed through intensive research and fact evaluation, we soon
realized that the P-38 story could hardly be compressed into a
standard format. Our horizons expanded as we derived more and more
information from sources who were intimately involved with the
airplane at the most significant stages of its evolution. Many of
those who were the most knowledgeable or had accumulated the
greatest experience or expertise had never before been interviewed
about the subject by any serious historian. In fact, it was amazing
that neither the designer, Clarence L. Johnson, or the Air Corps
project officer and test pilot, BGen. Benjamin S. Kelsey, had been
interviewed on that specific subject, even by the author of a
widely read book?

It is our most heartfelt desire to thank those persons who not only
participated in the making of history but who were motivated to
contribute their long-stored knowledge to our cause. Those persons
to whom we are so deeply indebted for narrative and photographic
material include: MGen. James Briggs, William H. Caughlin, Harvey
Christen, Raymond Crawford, Col. Harry Dayhuff, LGen. James H.
Doolittle, Col. Ralph Garman, Col. James W. Harris 111, Arthur
Heiden, Col. Frederick G. Hoffman, Cy Homer (Dec.), Col. Cass Hough,
Col. Jack S. Jenkins, Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson, BGen. Benjamin S.
Kelsey, James Kunkle, Col. Thoman G. Lanphier, Jr., Anthony Levier,
Col. Stanley Long, James Mattern, George McCutcheon, Joseph Onesty,
Col. Chet Patterson, Col. Sammy A. Pierce, Kenneth Pittman, W.A.
"Dick" Pulver, Col. Harold Rau (Dec.), Col. Raymond Toliver and
Col. John W. Weltman. Many others provided access to photographs
that contributed immensely to our ability to reproduce literally
hundreds of heretofore unpublished pictures. Material of that sort
is not only a great visual asset to any publication, it can
frequently provide the key to a wealth of previously undetected
data. So we also extend our appreciation to those who provided
useful graphic arts material in response to our pleas.


THE ASIATIC WAR

Combat flights ended quietly for the 475th Fighter Group, known
widely as "Satan's Angels," on July 21, 1945, with their scoreboard
indicating the air to air destruction of 551 enemy craft in 87
engagements for the total combat expenditure of only fifty-six P-38s
and the unfortunate loss of twenty-seven pilots. (There were a few
more pilots who lost their lives, but not as a result of enemy
action.) That was the record of the Fifth Force's only fighter group
that was, from the outset, composed entirely of Lockheed Lightnings.
A unique status had been maintained since the Spring of 1943 when
the group was created in the far reaches of the Southwest Pacific
theater of operations at one of the most crucial periods of the
war. Lt. General George Kenney knew when his day of reckoning was
upon him in the grim months of 1942, and he uncompromisingly and
steadfastly tied his wagon to the Lockheed star.

Literally flying in the face of overwhelming pressure generated by
the marginally desperate 1943 requirements of Doolittle's Twelfth Air
Force in the Mediterranean Theater and of Eaker's crisis plagued
Eighth Air Force daylight bombing program in the European Theater,
Kenney knew that his and Gen. MacArthur's chances of success in
combating the Japanese forces depended on the fighting capabilities
of the P-38. Nearly two years after he took this stance, the fighter
pilots of the Fifth Air Force were constantly proving how sagacious
the general had been. Probably the purest example of the general's
wisdom was the record attained by the 475th Group in a 2 month
period during November-December 1944, in the tenuous and often
desperate Philippines campaign, the three combat squadrons, plus
elements of Headquarters squadron, assigned to the 475th totally
destroyed 169 enemy aircraft in the air for the loss of only nine
P-38s and no more than four pilots.  The e/a kill ratio rose to a
fantastic 11 to 1 at that time, a classic figure comparable to the
14 to 1 ratio later attained by the famous North American F-86Es and
Fs during the Korean War. All of this was in the face of primitive
maintenance and living conditions and a Kamikaze minded enemy who was
not the victim of some "turkey shoot" syndrome, In a period when the
Japanese pilots were imbued with a fatalistic fanaticism for ramming
American aircraft, the AAF pilots surely could not be accused of
attacking a reticent or incompetent enemy.

In fact, quite the opposite was often true. While the abilities of
the average pilot had decreased somewhat (just as many of our
pilots had been poorly trained in 1942), their attitudes were intense
and their airplanes had far better performance than those of their
predecessors. In keeping with this improvement in enemy capabilities,
several late model P-38J and L aircraft had literally been stressed
beyond repair as a result of extremely vigorous maneuvering in
pursuit of individual enemy fighters,

Although a few pilots in the 475th FG (and the companion 49th FG)
had fabulous scores at the end of hostilities, the dominance of the
P-38 was not limited to just a few pilots. Quite the contrary.
Forty two pilots in the 415th group attained "ace" status and more
than 40 pilots in the 49th group shot down five or more Japanese
aircraft.

Results had not always been that productive in the perilous reaches
of the far Pacific. Early in the war, most pilots had to face the
Asiatic enemy in Curtiss P-40s and Bell P-39s. And while some of the
pilots in P-40s did not do too badly against the invaders,
it must be admitted that the best P-40 accomplishments seem to have
come late in 1944 when pilots like lt Robert DeHaven scored heavily in
P-40Ks and P-40Ns just before converting to P-38s and P-47Ds. All the king's
horses and all the Bell P-39s assigned to the SWPA were never going to
gain mastery of the air.  To make matters worse, the P-40s were critically
limited by range, altitude, maneuverability and firepower.

No map can clearly impart the tremendous distances that had to be
spanned in the Southwest Pacific arena. General MacArthur's island
hopping campaign could never have been carried out with any degree of
success in 1943 and 1944 without having the Lockheed Lightnings
there to support the efforts. The P-47N and P-51D types were not on
the scene until the war in Europe had been contained. It was only
in 1945 that those latter types entered the fray with any semblance
of numerical superiority, except possibly in India.

The 8th, 35th, 49th and 475th Fighter Groups carried the battle
to the enemy across the deadly expanse of New Guinea, an island of
mind boggling size - in fact, it is the world's second largest island
mass. Pilots either flew over the deadly shark filled waters
surrounding it, or vaulted its impenetrable jungles populated
by uncivilized cannibal tribes.

Clawing their way through determined enemy pilots in a variety of
fighters designed to dogfight in the classic style, pilots of the
475th, for example, performed well beyond all expectations. By
the time the Philippines had been secured, it was only a matter of
bombing Japan's survivors into submission. The fight against odds
had become history.

Port Moresby, Dobodura, Nadzeb, Hollandia, Biak, Dulag, Lingayen,
Luzon were names that could hardly be described as household words in
the American citizens' vocabulary. But they were indelibly impressed
into the minds of those pilots who suffered through more than two
years of frequently tenuous aerial combat.

Nearly forgotten in the mists of time and location, a relatively
small but critical war was also fought in the stormy Aleutian
Islands that extended in a chain to a point that often brought
American fighter pilots closer to the Japanese homeland than they
were to the US territorial mainland. As described later in this
portion of the P-38 story, the Lockheed Lightning definitely
played the major fighter role in this peripheral war that, fortunately,
did not escalate into a more significant conflict. Although some
P-40s and a squadron of P-39s were involved, nearly all escort
missions and area defensive fighter sorties were conducted by
P-38Es before the Aleutian campaign was successful in driving out
Japanese invasion forces. The single engine types did not even become
a factor in the war until Adak Island was occupied in late
summer of 1942, reducing the range to the enemy base at Sitka
to about 200 miles.

Col. Stanley A. Long, USAF, Ret, first AAF pilot of a P-38 to shoot
down an enemy aircraft, recalls that the P-38 was ideally suited to
the war in that arena. When he was asked to enumerate the P-38's
attributes and faults, he replied that "the P-38 didn't have any
faults" He recalled the many times, when he was leading P-51D Mustang
missions over Korea, a decade after he fought in the Aleutian chain,
he frequently found himself wishing he was back in a P-38.

Not many Lightnings became available for operation with the Tenth
Air Force in the India Burma Theater of Operations, although the
"Green Dragons" managed to rack up numerous victories over enemy
aircraft. However, from the early days of 1943, photo reconnaissance
F-4 and F-5 types operated in the theater with outstanding results.
Burma-lndia operations were conducted with a very muddled bag of
combat aircraft throughout the war, including such diverse types as
Mustang Is, P 47Ds, P 51Ds, Spitfires, Vultee Vengeances,
Beaufighters, Mosquitoes, Warhawks and Kittyhawks. (Photographer
Ken Sumney even recalls seeing one Curtiss Mohawk P-36 type that
belonged to the RAF as late as 1944 in India.)

After the reorganization of the Far East Air Forces in 1944,
Lightning recon and fighter aircraft of the 14th Air Force carried
out important operational activities from rudimentary bases in
various parts of China. Operations in the CBI were, for the most
part, considerably different from those prevalent in the Southwest
Pacific, the MTO and the ETO. No massive escorted bombing formations
were involved; air-to-air combat was relatively low key and on a
small scale; large cities were seldom in the picture and mechanized
warfare was not a dominant theme.

It is difficult to categorize one other aspect of P-38 participation
in WWII.  Where do we address the many P-38/F-5 operations conducted
in the Caribbean? Hundreds of photo-recon missions were flown from
Central and South American bases, mostly in connection with anti
submarine warfare operations. The activities were about evenly divided
between fighter and reconnaissance flights, with the fighters often
involved in protective surveillance flights over Allied convoys.

Of the 9924 Lightnings constructed at Burbank, approximately 1850 of
them saw service as reconnaissance aircraft, performing their
missions without guns.

All in all, the P-38 type had to be rated as the most effective AAF
fighter aircraft in use in 1942 through 1944. Let's look at the
picture in the clear light of day. Take 1942 as an example. At Eglin
Field, Florida, AAF test reports indicated a clear superiority of
P-38 and P-47 fighters over all other American types. Yet, only the
P-38 (of the two) was involved in actual combat, demonstrating its
prowess over the enemy in North Africa, the ETO--in Iceland, for
example--in the Aleutians, and in the Southwest Pacific.
Not even the top AAF fighter in the ETO at that time--the Spitfire Mk 5,
a borrowed type in somewhat restricted useage--could handle the jobs
allocated to the P-38 in North Africa, the Alaskan Theater, and especially
in the crucial effort of stopping the Japanese incursions in New Guinea
and the Solomon Islands. Yet, Spitfire production in one month at that
time outstripped Lockheed P-38 production for a year. Moreover, the
Spitfire was poorly suited to the geographic conditions in which that
conflict was being waged. As a consequence, all of the slack had to be
absorbed by P-40Es and Ks and the demoralizing Bell P-39s and P-400s
assigned to island defensive forces. Notice that the Mustang remains
unmentioned. Only a few P-51s and the dive-bombing A-36s participated to
any degree in the North African campaign, while the British restricted
their use to low-level interdiction and coastal reconnaissance missions
over Europe. Just a hand full of Allison powered Mustangs served in combat
in 1942.

The following year, 1943, definitely served to point out the fine
qualities of the P-38, in spite of the overwhelming demands placed on
its services, and -- frequently ignored -- the tactical doctrinal
errors that penalized the P-38 and its pilots until the picture was
totally distorted. (Who has ever acknowledged that the P-51Ds were
committed to the fray just at a time when many of the bomber doctrines
that had prevailed for years were discarded? ETO and MTO P-38s had been
"handcuffed" in protecting bombers for 18 months by that time.) Even so,
the P-38 was without peer in the MTO. In the ETO, it was the only
fighter--until the advent of the Mustang--in the Allied forces that
could escort the suffering B-17s and B-24s deep into Europe. The battle
of the Southwest Pacific was strictly a P-38 show, crowned by the Yamamoto
Mission and the dominant role played out over New Guinea. Air control of
the Aleutians was held by the P-38s. The CBI was a polygenetic collection
of what ever was available, but the few P-38s that were there, certainly
did not take a back seat to any other type.

By 1944, the revamped Mustangs, by then in large-scale mass production, and
the improved breed of Thunderbolts overwhelmed the P-38s in the ETO by dint
of mass availability, not to mention their greatly improved performances.
On the other hand, the P-47D was no match for the demands of the Pacific
Theater, while the P-38J and L types continued to pound and hound the
Japanese. Meanwhile, the magazine and newspaper writers of the day
continued to gnaw on the premise that the meatball-marked fighters
could outmaneuver the P-38 at every turn. (A review of most popular
aviation journals and news stories issued during the war years would lead
you to believe that everything the Japanese flew was a "Zero" type.) Messrs.
Bong, McGuire, Westbrook, Lynch, MacDonald and a host of others continued
to show the other side of the coin. Most of 1944 was also a period of
dominance for the P-38 in the tremendous assault on the underside
and eastern expanses of Europe. The type also proved equal to the job
assignments in China and Burma, and it would be difficult to
identify any totally superior type in service in India.

Even in 1945, the P-38 was in there struggling for the crown in
such diverse places as the ETO (Ninth Air Force), the CBI, the
Western Pacific and the fading war in the MTO. Like the P-38, the
P-47D gave ground to the P-51D throughout Europe. Furthermore, the
early Thunderbolt never earned a favorable reputation in the
Pacific, but that was soon to be dispelled by the appearance of the
P-47N with its greatly improved performance. Again, the P51D was
coming on strong, as well it should have through sheer availability
and improved performance, not unexpected in a much newer aircraft.

With this new hindsight, does it not appear that the Lightning has
been the long suffering victim of a half informed public viewpoint?
We sincerely believe that to be the correct, more sharply defined
picture.

There can be little, if any, doubt that the F-4 and F-5 camera
planes were hands down winners over all other reconnaissance types in
every theater of war. In that respect, the Lightning "had it all".

Any serious attempt to cover the highlights of four years of active
warfare involving the 5th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th and 14th Air Forces
- just the episodes relating to Lightnings - would fill volumes, and
with intriguing stories. Thus, it is our choice to touch on just a
few of the episodes to illustrate our contention that the P-38 was
certainly league champion, if not world champion, during a high
percentage of the massive global war.


End of Part One

Wings Magazine
4 August 1978

"The P-38 Lightning in the Pacific, the Aleutians, China-Burma-India

By,
Warren M. Bodie


Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:36:29 EST
From:    STeven Vest <SVEST@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front Books

I can vouch for the availability of "Paul Carell's" books used.  By the
sheerest of coincidences I have been reading a copy of The Foxes of the
Desert that I picked up at our library book sale.  It's a Bantam Paperback
and the original sale price was seventy-five cents!  I'd not heard about
Carell before reading about him here, but I was beginning to notice how
all of the Germans were nice, brave, fun-loving boys, the Italians were
well meaning bunglers and the British were brave but poorly led.  And of
course Rommel was the ultimate genius.

Still, it's well written and provides some nice insights to the war from
a German perspective.  He's really quite good at describing some of the
more complex battles but the book really suffers from not having maps.
I'd read more by him.  But I'm glad I know where he is coming from now.

Best

   STeven

------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEVEN VEST            *      "TWO BROKEN TIGERS, ON FIRE IN THE NIGHT,
PURDY/KRESGE LIBRARY   *       FLICKER THEIR SOULS TO THE WIND."
WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY *              AL STEWART "ROAD TO MOSCOW"
SVEST@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU *                    _PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE_
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:14:15 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@DORSAI.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Wargamers!  Luftwaffe Stragedy question..

As some of you know, I'm trying to write a book for young adults on the
Me163 Komet.  There is a strategic puzzle on the Komet, I cannot for the
life of me figure out.  If any of you think you can read the minds of
Luftwaffe leaders, riddle me this:
   First a little historical background to the question:  The Komet
program was originally called "Projekt X" and was super secret.  Wolfgang
Spate, an international glider champion and top gun Jagdwaffe ace was
brought in to develop with Alexander Lippisch, a combat version of the
rocket engined sports glider 163A.  The combat version was the Me163B.
The 163B has many limitations, one of the most serious was it's short
range, about 50 miles.  To overcome this limitation, Spate began setting
up a kind of "Kammhuber" defensive line of Komet bases starting from
Venlo Holland and stretching up the northwestern border of Germany.  The
bases were within 50 miles of eachother, so a Komet pilot after a fight
could glide in at a neighboring range, and in this way double his range
from 50 to amost a 100 miles.  Any daylight bomber group crossing from
England directly to Germany would have to pass over this defensive line
and face the Komets.  This idea makes perfect sense to me.  In 1944 Spate
was suddenly pulled off the project and sent to command in his old group,
JG54 on the eastern front.  He was rep[laced by generel Gollob, who
closed down all the satellite bases and pulled all the Komets to a SINGLE
base, Brandis airfield.  Any war gamer who thinks about this for a minute
will start pulling at his hair.  It's obvious, one good bombing raid on
Brandis by the US 8th, or RAF Bomber Command and JG400 would dissappear
in one afternoon.  If it happened at night, the Komets would be unable to
even rise to their own defense!  STRATEGIC QUESTION:  What in the world
was Gollob thinking of?  Why did he believe this idea was preferable to
Spate's?  Gollob was a very respected officer, if he was not a fool, what
advantage did he think he would gain in this?
I asked Spate this question in a letter, and his anaswer was vague.  I
don't think he could ever figure it out either.  He said (sic) "..Gollob
did more to find faults with the staff work of Galland than to support
and coordinate production and military use of the Me163B.  For instance
it was a leak of thinking for Gollob to concentrate all the Me163 units
at Brandis, much too far from the theater of war, where they were
needed.  This was the reason that the efficiency of the squadrons
equipped with the Me163 was very low..."

Anybody got an explantion for this?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:28:36 EST
From:    Mary Evelyn Hoffman <MHOFFMAN@MONROE.BITNET>
Subject: Radio communications/Rhine River area

I am a high school librarian with a 17 year old social studies student looking
for any information related to what the conditions were like while maintenance
and repair of communication lines was being done in the Rhine River area after
the battle had moved on. Needless to say, our library collection has nothing
this specific. Your discussions on this list indicate a lot of knowledge
amongst yourselves||

Mary Evelyn Hoffman
Naples Jr/Sr High Library
Voice (716) 374-5203
MHoffman@Monroe

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 12:33:04 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wargamers!  Luftwaffe Stragedy question..

Need some more info, roughly how many planes in each unit, how many
units, was it because of manpower shortages, refueling problems,
were there any problems in getting ammunition to the front, there
would be some valid reasons, or maybe just as simple as Hitler told me
to...

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:20:02 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: Re: Ref: WWIIHRS National Battle

>
> I attended the WWIIHRS National Battle at Hooper, NE this past weekend.
> The event was a good, but small one.  There were approximately 200
> reenactors present, with an even split between allied and German.
>
... much deleted...
> ****************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer


Hi Tim,
        I've been hanging on to this post for almost a month, meaning
to ask a question.  The battle you participated in sounded like a
lot of fun.  How does one get involved in WWII reenacting?  I'm in
Northern Virginia so the only reenactments we hear about are those
of the Civil war variety.

The equipment/uniforms you were using... real or reproductions? (or both?)
Were the weapons all fully-functional but firing blanks or were
they "non-guns"?  Were the units put together at random from the
participants there or did everyone arrive as a part of an organized
unit?  How much financial output is required to get started in something
like this?

This sounds like a lot of fun - running around in the woods AND having
a good excuse to buy lots of military equipment.

TIA,

patrick
marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 12:21:38 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:V-1 Found

>From the DoD Newswire 9 November 1994


:WORLD WAR II V-1 ROCKET FOUND BURIED IN GERMANY

     HOENSCHEID, Germany, Nov 8  - A V-1 missile fired by
Hitler's army at Allied troops in the dying days of World War Two has
been unearthed almost intact in a wooded German valley where it
crashed, officials said on Tuesday.
     Franz-Josef Antwerpes, head of Cologne's city administration,
said it was believed to be the first time a V-1 -- forerunner to the
more successful V-2 rocket and to modern missiles -- had been found
since the 1950s.
     Hitler's army fired about 10,000 of the jet-powered weapons,
known by the Allies as flying bombs or buzz bombs for the eerie noise
they made in flight, towards southern England and Belgium in the last
year of the 1939-45 war.
     The V-weapons -- for "Vergeltung" or retribution -- were intended
more to terrorise civilian populations than to do strategic damage.
     The V-1, with a reach of 300 km (180 miles), was fired from the
coasts of occupied France until the Allies invaded, after which it was
launched from ramps south of Cologne.  Its more effective successor,
the V-2, was launched in the north at Peenemuende.
     Buried under mud and foliage near a trickling stream, the warhead
and main body of the eight-metre (25-foot) missile were found about
100 metres (yards) from a hamlet in the Sieg region, some 40 km (25
miles) from Bonn.
     The jet engine, still holding most of its 600 litres (132
gallons) of fuel, was found bent and twisted nearby while all that was
left of the wings were rusty lumps of metal.
     Antwerpes told reporters the 40-odd inhabitants of the hamlet,
called Hoenscheid, would be evacuated on Wednesday while experts tried
to defuse the 850-kg (1,870-pound) warhead by remote control, using
video cameras.
     "They are dangerous things," Antwerpes said. "I reckon if it
exploded, it would leave a crater the size of a three-storey villa."
     Peter Bens, the head of Cologne's bomb disposal squad, said the
missile was found after a four-year search that began in 1990 with the
discovery of a launch site two km (one mile) away.
     Explaining that the V-1 was notoriously unreliable, with only a
75 percent chance of a successful launch and even less of reaching its
target, Bens said there were bound to be more V-1s which had crashed
after take-off in the area.
     Defusing the bomb would be tricky because the Nazis built devices
into the detonators to prevent tampering.
     "The Germans made sure that when the English found such a bomb
and defused it, it would blow up," Antwerpes said.
     An elderly woman said her husband had told her in the final days
of the war that a V-1 had come down in the forest behind their house.
"But then we all just forgot about it," she said.
     One of the main brains behind the V-weapon programme, Werner von
Braun, went to the United States after the end of World War Two to
help develop rockets for the U.S. space programme.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 12:22:58 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:V-1 Cont'd

>From the DoD Newswire 10 November 1994


:NAZI V-1 MISSILE FOUND IN GERMANY DEFUSED

    COLOGNE, Germany, Nov 9  - Bomb disposal experts on
Wednesday defused a Nazi V-1 missile found in a wooded German valley
where it crashed in the dying days of World War Two.
     Officials in Cologne said experts used remote control to pull
three detonators from the warhead of the missile, discovered buried
under mud and foliage near a stream in the Sieg region, 40 km (25
miles) from Bonn.
     It was believed to be the first time that a V-1, the forerunner
to the more successful V-2 and to modern missiles, had been found
since the 1950s. The V-1 had a range of 300 km (180 miles).
     Hitler's army fired about 10,000 of the jet-powered weapons,
known by the Allies as flying bombs or buzz bombs, at southern England
and Belgium in the last year of the 1939-45 war.
     The V-weapons -- for "Vergeltung" or retribution -- were intended
more to terrorise than to do strategic damage.
     The warhead and main body of the V-1 unearthed near the hamlet of
Hoenscheid was virtually intact. The jet engine, still holding most of
its 600 litres (132 gallons) of fuel, was found bent and twisted
nearby.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 12:51:39 -0500
From:    Mark Rothenberg <MROTHENBERG@CCMAIL.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Re: Radio communications/Rhine River area

Not sure if this will entirely fill the bill, but these works will probably
offer some insight on Rhine communications toward war's end:

United States.  Army.  Corps of Engineers.  Office of History.  Builders and
    Fighters:  U.S. Army Engineers in World War II, by William C. Baldwin, gen.
    ed., Barry W. Fowle.  Washington, DC:  The Office, 1992.  bibliog.:  461.
    SuDocs # D103.2:B86/2.

United States.  Army.  Center of Military History.  The Corps of Engineers:
    The War Against Germany (The Technical Services; United States Army in
    World War II).  Washington, DC:  CMH, For Sale by the Superintendent of
    Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1985.  SuDocs # D114.7:En3/2.
    LCCN:  84-11376.  index.

That's largely limited to U.S. Army participation, official histories.  Hope it
is of help.

Mark Rothenberg
Suffolk Cooperative Library System
Bellport, NY
mrothenberg@ccmail.sunysb.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:26:51 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: European Trip Report

My wife and I spent the month of October in Europe, touring Germany,
France and Holland.  In addition to the usual tourist activities, my wife
graciously agreed to add battlefield visits to our itinerary (and
actually admitted that she learned a lot and enjoyed it).  Some of the
sites were recommended by list members, so I thought I'd give a quick
report on what I saw in case anybody will be making a trip in the future.
This is basically in the order we travelled:

DACHAU:  The first concentration camp; what amazed me is that Dachau is a
suburb of Munich, next to what is today a major road and very near the
downtown area of the city Dachau.  Hardly hidden in the country.  The
original guard towers, main building and crematorium are still there.
There is a museum, and the displays make the point that the Nazis wanted
the population to know about the brutality of Dachau, to give the message
that this was the punishment for opposition.  That was news to me.  The
offical figures for people killed there list about 30,000, but that
doesn't include Russian POWs and Gestapo "special handling" cases that
were not counted.  Probably the most chilling thing I saw was an area for
executions by pistol shots to the head.  It had a "blood ditch" to
provide a run-off so the killers wouldn't stand in blood.  Somehow this
attention to detail was the most evil thing there.

PARIS:  Visited Invalides (Napoleon's Tomb and Army Museum): good
displays of uniforms and weapons from all periods; looked for tanks I
heard were there, but couldn't find them.  Saw an interesting special
display put on by the Paris Police (it was housed in a tent outdoors)
about their history, including their part in the liberation of Paris.
Lots of markers and displays throughout the city about the liberation.

LA ROCHE GUYON:  Rommel's HQ is an impressive castle built into the side
of a chalk-like mountain.  The castle is open for tours and provides some
information about the wartime history.  It was fascinating to stand in
the room that was Rommel's office and think about everything that went on
there, from anti-Nazi plots to defending the Atlantic Wall.  The town
itself is charming.  One interesting note in the brochure was that Rommel
did not require that the Nazi flag be flown over the town hall, and that
this gesture was well received by the local populace.  Travel note: La
Roche Guyon is just down the road from Giverny, site of Monet's famous
gardens.

NORMANDY:  We stayed at a farmhouse in St. Mere Eglise, about 5 km from
the center of town.  The owner told us that on June 6 '44 paratroopers
landed in the fields across the road from his farm.  I was astounded by
the hedgerows; I had read about them, but seeing how thick and tangled
they were was stunning.  The Airborne Museum in the town was quite good.
It was kind of disconcerting to see a dummy paratrooper (John Steele)
hanging from the church steeple in the middle of town.  Kind of odd, but
tourism is a major industry here.  We visited beaches at Juno, Utah and
Omaha.  The museums at these sites were small, and the displays of
uniforms and weapons were beginning to get repetitive.  Omaha beach was
eerie to walk; first along the beach and then up on the crest were the
Germans were dug in.  It's very built up, and I guess I expected to see
shell holes and burned-out tanks after watching so much newsreel footage.
Point du Hoc was the most interesting and impressive site, because it has
not been developed or changed much.  The shell holes still cover the
labndscape, and the bunkers are there, some blown open and others
intact.  It was unbelievable to look down the cliff and imagine climbing
up under fire.

CAEN:  Of all the museums we visited, the Peace Museum in Caen was by far
the best.  If you can see only one WWII museum, go to this one.  It has a
good collection of uniforms and weapons, informative displays, a Tempest
fighter-bomber hanging in the main entrance, and super films and a/v
stuff. The best was a ten minute split screen movie showing Allied and
German preparations and fighting on D-Day (they used actual footage and
some stuff from The Longest Day) - it was entirely without narration, and
the pace and the loud sound system left everyone holding their breath;
very well done.
We also went to Pegasus Bridge over the Orne River; looks like the
original bridge.  Visited the small  museum in the cafe next to the
bridge (1st building liberated), still run by the daughter of the
original owner, who was a little girl on the night of the landings.  You
can walk along the river and see the markers which note where each glider
landed.

ARNHEM:  Visited the 6th Division Airborne Museum in Oosterbeck, at the
former Hartenstein Hotel, HQ for the 6th Division.  A good museum,
dedicated to the 6th Division's battle in Market-Garden.  What I found
disappointing was that it had little to say or show about Col. Frost's
fight at the bridge in Arnhem, just a few km to the east. Visited the
bridge, now named Col. John Frost Brucke.  None of the original houses
where the battle was fought are still there, but there is a small park
with an artillery piece and markers.

OVERLOON (HOLLAND):  Interesting outdoor park.  Overloon was the site of
a tank battle following Market-Garden. This park was part of that battle
site, and they have many tanks and other equipment which actually fought
in the battle (plus a lot of Dutch stuff).  For instance, there are
American Shermans placed right where they were hit, and some have crew
names and information as to what happened to them.  Also a German Panther
tank in good shape.  Lots of equipment of all types, and a nice area to
walk in as well.

The whole trip was great; actually seeing places I had read about for so
long was a treat as a WWII buff.  However, it also made that struggle
much more real.  My images are not black & white newsreel anymore; they
have been replaced by vivid colors and memories of the ground I walked
where so many suffered.

In Germany we stayed in many small villages. Each usually has a small
Gasthaus (guesthouse) which has rooms, a bar and restaurant, and seems to
be the center and gathering place for the village.  In many, there were
memorials to the soldiers killed in the "Kriege 1939 - 1945".  In a small
farming village in southern Germany (Moorenweiss), the memorial had
photographs of all the soldiers killed from that village.  There were
almost 300!  The pictures started out with smiling faces in dress
uniforms. Then came photos of men in winter, their faces covered in
scarves.  The last 50 or so were children; they looked 15 or 16 years
old. What a waste.

Well, it was fun writing this and reliving my trip. Hope it was of interest.


 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
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 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:09:30 -0600
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Homefront: US: Camp Ellis, Illinois, pt. 3

Despite its remoteness, Camp Ellis provided its troops with a variety of
activities and the troops, in turn, became an asset to west central
Illinois.  The camp had its own newspaper, CAMP ELLIS NEWS, which, with a
circulation of 13,700 papers, was considered the largest army newspaper
without the benefit of advertising.  Camp Ellis was also the only army
camp to have its own radio network which broadcast to 200,000 listeners
weekly.  "Camp Ellis Entertains" became a listening habit every Tuesday
evening.  Besides the newspaper and radio network, Camp Ellis also planted
its own two hundred acre "Victory Garden".  In 1944, the garden produced
262 tons of more than 30 varieties of vegetables.  The troops also raised
twenty-six acres of wheat and established a chicken farm.  Furthermore,
the troops also aided the surrounding communities by providing needed
manpower during paper drives, floods, and strikes.  In Peoria, 300 Ellis
men collected 100,000 pounds of waste paper. During the floods of 1943,
Ellis engineers plugged levees at Harrisonville, Beardstown, Valmeyer, and
Waterloo.  Two soldiers were decorated for heroism.  In 1944, five
thousand Ellis men patrolled three hundred miles of levees along the
Mississippi River in southern Illinois and defended Quincy's power plant
from flooding.  When a labor shortage occurred in January 1944, engineers
from Camp Ellis laid track on the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy line
between Table Grove and Adair and worked at the Caterpillar plant in
Peoria.  Finally, one thousand Ellis men drove trucks in Chicago during a
drivers' strike in June 1945.

Camp Ellis had started to wind down by late 1944.  On October 1, 1945, the
camp was placed in the surplus category at a cost to the government of
$23,076,438.  Many farmers repurchased their land and the buildings were
sold at auction on June 29, 1950.  The auction brought in $541,377.92.
Some of the barracks became married student housing units at Western
Illinois University, and the bar from the officers' club went to a tavern
in Bushnell.  Today all that remains of Camp Ellis are two water towers
and some concrete from the sewage filtration plant.

Sources:
Knowles, Judy.  "Camp Ellis."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 12 (April 1959): 173.

Richey, John.  "Spoon River Camp."  ILLINOIS HISTORY 20 (April 1967):
159-60.

Roberts, Delbert.  "Remember When..."  MACOMB JOURNAL, 5 October 1994.

Waterson, Michele.  "Camp Ellis: Built for World War II."  ILLINOIS
HISTORY 36 (November 1982): 45-46.

Watters, Mary.  ILLINOIS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.  Vol. 1, OPERATION HOME
FRONT.  Vol. 2, THE PRODUCTION FRONT.  Springfield, Ill.: Illinois State
Historical Library, 1951-52.

Tomorrow, some final words about Camp Ellis.
Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:57:58 -0500
From:    Michael Andrew Turton <turtom@RPI.EDU>
Subject: Komets

THinking about the Komets, I'll bet the General was thinking
more like an administrator than a battle leader.  Think how
it simplified logistics to have all the Komets at one base!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:28:45 PST
From:    Henry Herz <herz@C3OT.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Wargamers!  Luftwaffe Stragedy question..

> Anybody got an explantion for this?
>
Just a general observation -- military deployment decisions are not based solely
on military effectiveness.  Is it possible there were political (he wanted
tight, personal control of the aircraft), logistical (limited maintenance
facilities or personnel), or economic (you would save money basing them all at
one place) reasons the Komets couldn't be spread out for greater combat
effectiveness?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:10:36 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Women in the Resistance Movement

Hello everyone,
       With all this discussion of the "Comet Line" and "Madeline," I
thought I would share some information with the group. This material is
cited from Life (v8 p26-7 1985) in an article entitled: Heroes All; Friend
or Foe Stirred the World with Their Courage.

     Marie-Madeleine-Fourcade a.k.a. Hedgehog - Fourcade led a network of
3000 agents throughout France. She was captured by the Gestapo in 1944, but
escaped the next day  by squeezing through the bars of her cell window. In
1985, she was directing a group of resistance movement survivors.

     Andree de Jongh - Set up the Comet Line, a tortuous route in which
fugitives, mainly Allied soldiers, were smuggled out of German occupied
Belgium. She was captured in 1943, but managed to assist over 200 escapees.

     Lucie Aubrac - Published a clandestine resistance newspaper and dealt
in forged identity cards and documents. She also organized acts of sabatoge.

     Hannie Schaft - Became Holland's best known freedom fighter. In 1945,
during one of her missions, she pushed a German officer in the Amsterdam
canal. She was caught and executed at Haarlem.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:44:13 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: TACT: HALSEY

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)


 Ben Frank at Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:02:50 -0500

 Ben writes:
 > A board was set up to review Halsey's action or lack of them in commanding
 > his task force in the storm ... but Halsey's fellow admirals and
 > certainly Nimitz let him know in no uncertain terms that he blew it for
 > a second time.

 On June 5, for the second time, a typhoon struck Halsey's force, wrenching
 off the bow of PITTSBURGH (CA-72), damaging 32 other ships, and destroying
 142 planes.

 Halsey's second typhoon came near ruining his career. Another court of
 inquiry, this one also presided over by ADM Hoover, put most of the blame
 on Halsey and on ADM McCain, pointing out that they had not followed
 ADM Nimitz's Fleet Letter of advice for dealing with severe storms. The
 court recommended that Admirals Halsey and McCain be assigned to
 "other duty."  Secretary Forrestal was on the point of retiring Halsey, but
 Nimitz and King argued him out of his intention on the basis that Halsey
 was a national hero whose removal would impair American morale and boost
 that of the enemy.    Excerpts from *NIMITZ*, by E.B.Potter, U.S.N.I., 1976.

 The court of inquiry, presided over by VADM John Hoover, put most of the
 blame on ADM Halsey. Nimitz in his endorsement for the court of inquiry's
 record, moderated the verdict by stating his opinion that Halsey's mistakes
 "were errors of judgment committed under stress of war operations and
 stemming  from a commendable desire to meet military requirements." King
 softened this by adding after the word "judgment" the phrase "resulting from
 insufficient information" and changing "commendable desire" to "firm
 determination."     Excerpts from *BULL HALSEY*, by E.B.Potter, U.S.N.I.,1988.


  Happy 219th., U.S.M.C.

  Ex Scientia Tridens

  Carl Wernke USN (ret)
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:19:46 EST
From:    Dee Shneiderman <DSHNEIDERMAN@PEMBVAX1.PEMBROKE.EDU>
Subject: Zero name: Thanks

Hi, Y'all,
Thanks for all the info on the Zero!
Dee

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:22:34 -0500
From:    Mark Rothenberg <MROTHENBERG@CCMAIL.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Re: Comet Line

Regret I haven't been following the discussion as closely as I should.  So, at
the risk of duplication, thought I'd mention a relatively recent book:

Watt, George.  The Comet Connection:  Escape from Hitler's Europe.  Lexington,
    KY:  University Press of Kentucky, 1990.  ISBN 0813117208.  LCCN:
    89-070733.

    It's a little unusual, mainly owing to the author's past.  He was a political
commisar in the "Lincoln Brigade" (i.e., a communist), during the Spanish Civil
War, and some of his hair-raising reflections are recounted toward the end of
this short book.  He later had a falling out with Stalinism.  He joined the U.S. Air Force in WWII, as a tail-gunner in a
B-29, and his plane was shot down over Belgium in 1943.  The book recounts how
he was saved and hidden by Belgian civilians, shepherded to the French border,
where he was forwarded to Paris, got through a gestapo checkpoint on the rail
to Bordeaux, and made his escape over the Pyrenees, to the British embassy in
Madrid, then to Gibraltar, without being detected.  The French portion of the
journey was courtesy of the "Comet Line".  Did I mention that the author was
Jewish?  His survival chances, if captured and "found out about" were quite
minimal.  The book concludes with a series of meetings and reunions in France,
Belgium, and the U.S.  The author is alive, well (I think--he lectured in the
vicinity recently), and living in Northport, Long Island, NY.  In writing
style, this is not deathless literature.  But, as straightforward nonfiction,
it is a short, but gripping read.

Mark Rothenberg
Suffolk Cooperative Library System
Bellport, NY
mrothenberg@ccmail.sunysb.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:39:09 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Rokossovsky

        Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the future Marshal Rokossovsky
"rehabilitated" during the Finnish Winter War, a year prior to the Moscow
campaign?  I know that Stalin's people recalled some formerly disgraced and/or
incarcerated officer victims of the military purges when things started to go
wrong in Finland--allowing them to work their passage, as it were, back to
respectability at the front.  The program was successful enough that it was
instituted again on a larger scale in the crisis of the winter of '41-42.
If someone knowledgeable in this area doesn't post it first I'll eventually
dig up some bio on the future c-in-c of the Polish Army.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 1994 18:08:06 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Comet Line

I'd like to add additional information and a correction to
the post mentioning George Watt's book "The Comet Connection".
I also highly recommend his book.  It's available in paperback
for $4.99.

George was a waist gunner on a B-17F assigned to the 388th BG.
He was a part of the Bramwell crew, and they were shot down on
their 7th mission on 5 November 1943.  Returning from bombing
Gelsenkirchen, where the aircraft had been damaged, they were
shot down by a Fw 190 over 