Subject: WWII-L Digest - 1 Nov 1994 to 2 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 00:00:39 -0500

There are 64 messages totalling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: Sonar (4)
  2. MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY
  3. admin: No Mail!
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-NOV-1944
  5. Pearl Harbor (2)
  6. Hisler successor (2)
  7. fighter pilots (9)
  8. Mr Listowner !
  9. Naval Ships lost to weather (2)
 10. INF: USN Chronology 11-02-94
 11. INF: USN Chronology 11-01-94
 12. question-- aircraft (Me 102)
 13. WEAP:49,000 pound bomb (3)
 14. more on bersaglieri (3)
 15. WEAP: Question...Aircraft
 16. Old 59 (2)
 17. Iwo Jima veteran
 18. WWII MEMOIRS
 19. MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt (3)
 20. WEAP: CVE-
 21. WEAP:B-32 (2)
 22. WEAP:  49000 Lb Bomb (2)
 23. [GEN] Transport planes (4)
 24. MEDIA: Better Late Than Never
 25. MEDIA:German Holocaust Museum
 26. Home: US: Illinois at war
 27. GEN:dangerous jobs (2)
 28. [INF] USAAF 3 NOV 44
 29. MARINE CORPS BIRTH (3)
 30. HYPO"The big what"
 31. BERSAGLIERE(SP!)
 32. IWO JIMA VETERAN
 33. WEAP: BOOKS: Sea Eagles - Bf 109T history
 34. statue of liberty
 35. Japanese warships visiting Pearl Harbor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 23:03:39 -0600
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

Tim,  now to finaly get around to answering the rest of you'r questions.

+==============================+=============================================+
| DAN COX                      | "I have made this letter longer than usual, |
| REPUBLIC, MO                 | only because I have not had the time to     |
| [email-masked] | make it shorter."--Blaise Pascal            |
+==============================+=============================================+

On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

>
>              ---Deleated Stuff---
>
> Also, I believe destroyers in WW II used hydrophones, which were basically
> passive listening devices.  I assume that they had 360 degree listening
> capability.  Sonar was something different, because it sent out a signal
> and the operator listened for echoes.

That's true they had both.

  A sonar transducer (antenna) is made up of two gangs of quartz
crystals.  When you apply an alternating electrical voltage to one gang
it causes the crystals to expand and contract, producing a sound wave.
The second gang is connected to an ampflier by wires and when a sound
strikes them, the amplifer produces a sound humans can hear.  Stick
this thing down in the water and you have Sonar.  If you just want to
listen don't ping (transmit).  This is directional however depending on
the direction you have the transducer trained.  Now if you'r dead still
in the water and really close to a sub, you could hear him if he's
underway.  For a moving surface ship to detect a sub tho, you must echo
range (ping) off him.

If your underway a hydrophone is useless.  A scenario for their use takes
place following a depth charge run on a sub.  If it wasn't too deep
sometimes the sub would desend and set on the bottom.  Once this happens,
you can't locate him by echo ranging with sonar.  Lots of times he would
blow a package of personal items out a torpedo tube, hoping the enemy
above would spot them and think he had sunk.  If the destroyer didn't
buy this, it would go to the sub's last known position, come to a dead
stop and listen with the hydrophones, waiting for the sub to start his
motors and move.  The sub could only stay down there so long until it
ran out of oxygen.  By using the hydrophones you could hear 360 degrees
so when he started up you would hear him, but would be unable to tell what
direction the sound was comming from.

  I don't think this tactic was used much near the end of the war.  With
the Germans using the Wolf Packs, a ship dead in the water became easy
prey for any other sub in the area.

  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
the movie, though.

> (I think they may have used the
> hydrophone headgear to listen for sonar returns.)

  The Sonar operators control panel on the WW-II gear I operated had a
phone jack for headphones if you wanted to use them, but the normal mode
was to use a speaker in the Sonar Shack so everyone could hear the pings
and echos.

> It is my understanding
> that sonar in WW II had a very narrow beam and had to be pointed.  When
> a destroyer was looking for a submarine, for example, it had to slowly
> sweep an area a few degrees at a time.  Does anyone know if that is true
> and just how wide the search beam was?
>
  The bean of WW-II Sonar was about 7 1/2 degrees, so you would search in
5 degree steps.  You would stard at either the port or starbord beam of
the ship, ping once and listen for 5 to 10 seconds for whatever echos and
sounds would come back.  And believe me you were going to have plenty,
the trick is to determine what might be a sub.  Once the 5 to 10 seconds
were up you trained the transducer forward 5 degrees and repeated this till
you reached the bow.  At this point you "slewed " the transducer 90
degrees to the other beam and repeated this same action, etc, etc.  Bear in
mind you could only hear the 7 1/2 degrees the transducer was aimed and
you were "blind" the other 352 1/2 degrees.

> Sorry if this is very obvious or has been covered before.  I didn't have
> handy access to any source for this.  TIA
>
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 20:20:32 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY

Thanks Ben.  Btw, I just picked up a copy today of *US Marine Corps
Uniforms & Equipment in WWII* by Jim Moran, and have been having a good
time looking at the photos tonight.  Seems to be a good book, although a
little steep on the $.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 00:44:45 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

>  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
>and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
>the movie, though.

Dan,

I think the movie you are referring to is "The Enemy Below." Here a couple
of short reviews of the movie. It won an Oscar for special effects.

Not rated Color 98 minutes
US 1957
Available on Videocassette

Cast Includes:
Robert Mitchum          Curt Jurgens    Thodore Bikel   Doug McClure

Leonard Maltin Review (3 out of 4 stars):
Fine WW2 Submarine chase tale, which manages to garner interest from usual
crew interaction of U.S. vs. Germany in underwater action. Previously filmed
in 1931 as The Seas Beneath.

Pauline Kael Review:
A duel of nerves, instincts, intelligence, and seamanship is fought by Curt
Jurgens as the captain of a German submarine and Robert Mitchum as the captain
of an American destroyer. Dick Powell's direction of this Second World War
action-adventure picture is clean and professional; everything is well-done,
but nothing suprises you and nothing thrills you, either. With Theodore bikel
and Kurt Kreuger. The script is based on a book by Commander D. A. Rayner.
20th Century Fox. CinemaScope.

Tony
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 00:50:13 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: admin: No Mail!

I have not received any mail from WWII-l since October 27.  Have I been
deleted from the list again?  I tried to resubscribe but received the
answer from the server that WWII-l does not exist.  What happened?
I don't want to miss any information on the Romanian military in WWII.  I
will have to reread the postings from the last week or so until i'm back on
the list. Keep up the good work!

Jon Stevens --  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:40:52 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-NOV-1944

On 03-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The fighting at Breskens comes to an end. The battle has cost
the Canadians 2,077 men (314 killed and the rest wounded or missing). Some
12,500 Germans have been taken prisoner. Over the river at Walcheren the
battle is still very fierce but the British and Canadian forces are able to
advance steadily. The 104th Division extends its bridgehead. The Polish 1st
Division establishes a bridgehead near Zevenbergen on the right flank of the
II Corps, while the Canadian 4th Armoured Division improves its position in
the same sector.

Eastern Front - The slow retreat of the Germans in the Balkans continues. In
the northern sector, the German Army Group North is still cut off in northern
Latvia and the island of Saaremaa, and on the smaller islands in the Gulf of
Riga.

Italian Front - General McCreery is appointed to command the Eighth Army.

Philippines (Leyte) - The 96th Infantry Division is held up by strong Japanese
resistance west of Dagami on a hill known as Bloody Ridge, and are forced to
withdraw.

Mariana Islands - Japanese aircraft begin a series of raids on the US bases on
Saipan and Tinian.

Burma/China - On the Salween river front, the Chinese 1st Division retakes
Lung-ling. The Chinese 22nd Division, in the north, reaches the Irrawaddy near
Shwegu.

The Homefront
-------------
Alleged Spy Arrested - The FBI has arrested Henrich Suhl, 55, cork importer at
Peekskill, NY on a charge of conspiracy to violate the federal espionage
statute in wartime. He is alleged to have been used by the Germans to pay
spies in the US.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor

Jim Adams writes:

 >Today I was thinking of a historical paradox.  As I stood on the back
 >lawn of the Arizona Memorial Visitors' Center I watched a Japanese
 >destroyer with her rising sun naval battle ensign sail past the
 >Memorial.  Yesterday's enemies are todays friends; todays friends are
 >tomorrows enemies.

I thought the same thing in 1986 when the Statue of Liberty was
re-dedicated.  I was sitting in the stands on the banks of the
Hudson River in Jersey City, New Jersey; looking to the left, I saw
two Japanese warships and looking to the right was a German warship.
Some of the WWII vets in the stands just shook their heads at that.

One of the most impressive things was the battleship USS Iowa.
There was a pier jutting into the river on my left and you could
not see what was coming down the river.  Suddenly, here comes this
clipper bow and  silently slipping down the river was the Iowa.  I
had been aboard the New Jersey once but you cannot appreciate the
graceful lines of these ships until you look at them from a distance.
The Iowa Class battleships make aircraft carriers look like big,
clunky monsters without any grace at all.

And then later in the day, we had the tall ships on parade.  But that
is another story.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

Dan Cox writes about submarines, SONAR, etc. and says:

 >  There is a movie about this.  I think Richard Widmark is the US skipper
 >and maybe Kurt Jergens is the U Boat captain.  Can't remember the name of
 >the movie, though.

I believe you are thinking of the following.

>From LEONARD MALTIN'S MOVIE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1994

THE ENEMY BELOW
Released in 1957
Color
98 minutes long
Maltin gives it 3 stars out a possible 4

Directed by Dick Powell
Starring Robert Mitchum, Curt Jurgens, Theodore Bikel, Doug
McClure, Russell Collins and David Hedison.

Fine WWII submarine chase tale, which manages to garner interest
from usual crew interaction of U.S. vs. Germany in underwater
action; the special effects for this earned Walter Rossi an Academy
Award.  Previously filmed in 1931 as THE SEAS BENEATH.
Originally filmed in CinemaScope.  The film has been available on
Homevideo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:03:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Hello, William!

I want to respond to your interesting post. I am having some computer
problems and am sending this to see if you have received it.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:30:01 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Hello, William!

Would like to add a couple of comments to your fine post.

>    When Hitler was removed from power is the most essential element of this
> debate.  From 1933-1940 or so, the other Nazi big-wigs had too much power
> and influence.  Not to detract from Heydrich's abilities, but Goebbels,
> Himmler, Hess, and particularly Goering had the advantage of being public
> figures and somewhat liked.  In these days, Heydrich was a shadowman.

    Which is what Heydrich preferred, i.e. being a shadowman. He
worked most effectively and his most profound influence operating in
the shadows.

    As
> totalitarian as Germany was, I think in 1940 the German people would have
> had an indirect say as to who took over - and my first guess would be
> Goering, particularly as Hitler had more or less articulated this.

    I really rather doubt that. At that time, I don't think the
people would have been in a favorable position to exert any sort of
influence on the outcome of any power struggle. Himmler's  Gestapo
had seen to that.

>    But by 1942 or definitely 1943, the German people were more or less
> apathetic to who was in charge - the most important thing was making it
> through alive and seeing a good end to the war.

    I think this is correct, and by that time, the Germans had become
numbed to life around them.

Thus, popularity would
> play a lesser role.  In this case, it is likely that Heydrich could have
> taken over, though the fact that he never really commanded a large following
> either in the public or the Party cannot be forgotten.

    I don't think it mattered to Heydrich if he had a large following
or not. At the level of governance, the only thing that mattered was
who could exert the most influence and who had the most power. As
long as Hitler remained at the top, there was no doubt who was in
control. With him gone, it would have been up for grabs, and to my
mind, with Heydrich's gift for intrigue combined with his intellect,
as opposed to that of his opponents, I think in time he could have
and would have come out on top. He was the one big-wig who had real
talent, which was lacking in those above him.

All of his accomlishmen
> ts were based on his intellect and will - these are not enough to take over
> a country.

    I think that would depend on the situation.

>    In conclusion, Heydrich probably would not have come to power any earlier
> than 1942, when the began to take turns for the worst and the bigwigs were
> being discredited.  Even then, I'm not sure he would have wanted that power,
> though I could be wrong here.

    I think that the attraction of attaining ultimate power for
Heydrich would have been too tempting for him not to have made an
attempt at achieving it.

 What I wonder most of all is: could he have
> changed the fate of the Reich and what kind of Fuhrership would he have?

    Doubtful. In any event, the Allies would have certainly made a
strong case for trying him as a war criminal, which they would have
been justified in doing so.

    Thanks for allowing me to add my thoughts. Please let me know
yours. Heydrich is a fascinating individual.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:33:35 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Hello, Drew!

> As I read answers to my own question, I started to think about u-boat
> crews. I know that the Germans (from watching Das Boot) lost 30,000 of
> 40,000 submariners. Does any other branch match this fatality rate of
> 75%?-Drew

    Try Bomber Command of British Royal Air Force. I think some 50,000
were killed on operations.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:54:23 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:33:35 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>Hello, Drew!
>
>
>> As I read answers to my own question, I started to think about u-boat
>> crews. I know that the Germans (from watching Das Boot) lost 30,000 of
>> 40,000 submariners. Does any other branch match this fatality rate of
>> 75%?-Drew
>
>    Try Bomber Command of British Royal Air Force. I think some 50,000
>were killed on operations.
>
>    Terry

    I've read a lot these last few days about who had it worst - the Russian
infantrymen, the U-boaters, the RAF bomber crews, etc.  I think, from
reading a few personal histories from American fighter pilots, Rommel and
Patton, paratroopers in the Bulge, Donitz and his U-Boatmen, and in short
a good cross section of persons who fought in the long and horrible
World War II, I think that one gets to the point where life just plain
sucks and that to speak of it of getting worse, of stretching the misery
and the despair, is simply inconceivable.
    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen
could blow off fighting more than a pilot might be able to.  To be sure,
some people had it not too bad off - Washingtoners, prison guards, or
other such non-combat personnel.  But for the fighting folks, those who
were there again and again, in a tank, a U-boat, a plain, or in just their
own boots, war was a general drag and anything seemed better.
   But I do think the Allies had a slight morale advantage insofar that by
1943 and definitely by 1944 they had a rational confidence in victory.
I don't think there is anything worse than having to fight on knowing that
defeat will come no matter what one does.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:29:53 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor

You can see the same paradox at the major naval base near Tokyo (it's
name escapes me) where American ships tie up next to Japanese ships-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
[email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Jim Adams wrote:

> Today I was thinking of a historical paradox.  As I stood on the back
> lawn of the Arizona Memorial Visitors' Center I watched a Japanese
> destroyer with her rising sun naval battle ensign sail past the
> Memorial.  Yesterday's enemies are todays friends; todays friends are
> tomorrows enemies.
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
> Cultural Resource Manager
> USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
> 1 Arizona Memorial Place
> Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
> ****************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 16:33:21 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
Subject: Mr Listowner !

Dear mr. Listowner I have recovered all my messages for the 26/27
so thanks for the trouble. You need not to send them back to me.

Again Thanks A Lot !
Ozgur ALtinyay

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:38:30 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

50,000 out of how many in service?>drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
[email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

>     Try Bomber Command of British Royal Air Force. I think some 50,000
> were killed on operations.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:40:09 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Of course, with out being too cheeky, the people who had it worse were
the Kamekaze pilots, who a mortality rate of 100%-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
[email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 06:52:34 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

>    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
>had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen

There were even some exceptions there.  I'm thinking of the marine and navy
pilots on Quadacanal in the early days.

>could blow off fighting more than a pilot might be able to.  To be sure,
>some people had it not too bad off - Washingtoners, prison guards, or
>other such non-combat personnel.  But for the fighting folks, those who
>were there again and again, in a tank, a U-boat, a plain, or in just their
>own boots, war was a general drag and anything seemed better.

>William Lippert
>The American University

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 07:25:48 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships lost to weather

Someone asked about the ships lost to weather.  This is mostly from _Bull
Halsey_ by E.B. Potter.

On 12/18/94 third fleet was refueling.  Ordinarily (as I understand it),
with bad weather approaching the destroyers would have pumped sea water in
their tanks, but since it took 6 hours (according to Potter) to pump out,
the captains were reluctant to do so.  Thus the ships were riding high in
the water and 3 destroyers capsized losing all but 74 of their 831 crewman.
 Counting crew lost from other ships the total was almost 800 men lost.  In
addition 7 other ships were heavily damaged and 186 planes lost.  The names
of the 3 destroyers were HULL, MONAGHAN, and SPENCE.

Halsey was found negligent by a board of Inquirey but first Nimitz and then
King ameliorated it to the point of being a slap on the wrist.  Later,
Halsey and McCain failed to guide Third Fleet around another typhoon and
many of Jocko Clark's ships were heavily damaged.  This time there were
calls to fire Halsey but because of his war record, status as a war hero,
and the fact that the war was almost over, he was spared.  However McCain
was replaced.  He flew home after the surrender ceremonies and died of a
heart attack that day or the next.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:30:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

John Riegsecker writes:
 >>    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
 >>had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen
 >
 >There were even some exceptions there.  I'm thinking of the marine and navy
 >pilots on Quadacanal in the early days.

John,

Don't forget that the US Army Air Forces were also on Guadalcanal
starting in Aug 42 flying their pitiful P-400s and P-39s.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:55:31 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships lost to weather

John Riegsecker  writes;

        On 12/18/94 third fleet was refueling...

WOW! Deja vu! ;-)

I know what you meant, but couldn't miss the opp!               Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:55:24 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-02-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/02 Thu. Japanese aircraft bomb United States airstrip and
           planes on the ground at Tacloban, Leyte, P. I.; raid
           is repeated on 3 November.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:21:38 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 11-01-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
11/01 Wed. Submarine RAY (SS-271) lands men and supplies on west
           coast of Mindoro, P. I.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer ABNER ROAD (DD-526), by suicide plane,
              Leyte Gulf, P. I.,
              10 d. 47'N., 125 d. 22'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Leyte Gulf, P.
             I.:
             Destroyer ANDERSON (DD-411), by suicide plane,
              10 d. 11'N., 125 d. 02'E.
             Destroyer BUSH (DD-529), by horizontal bomber,
              10 d. 13'N., 125 d. 21'E.
             Destroyers CLAXTON (DD-571) and AMMEN (DD-527), by
              suicide planes,
              10 d. 40'N., 125 d. 20'E.
             Destroyer KILLEN (DD-593), by horizontal bomber,
              10 d. 40'N., 125 d. 20'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:47:39 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: question-- aircraft (Me 102)

Mike, this may only be a coincidence, but Armand van Ishoven's book
MESSERSCHMIDT (Omega Books, 1975) has an appendice of exports of
Messerschmidt aircraft 1939-1944.  Hungary received 3 Bf 109D, 40 Bf 109E
and 59 Bf 109G.  Add those up and you get--yep-- 102 Me fighters.  Hey,
it may be a coincidence, but you never know.  After all, this is the
HUNGARIAN Air Force we're talking about.  RUMANIANS would NEVER have that
sort of data entry problem.

Seriously, I find no reference to a "Me 102" designation in any of my
available books on Messerschmidt.  Perhaps it was an error in translation?
Another wild guess could be a reference to the Me 410's they were trying
to build locally later in the war.  The 410's forerunner was the Me210--maybe
there was a case of simple numeral transposition?

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:14:35 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

At 10:30 AM 11/2/94 -0500, mc killop wrote:
>John Riegsecker writes:
> >>    Every service had its advantages and disadvantages.  Pilots at least
> >>had a good chance to spend a night in a safe bed, but then again infantrymen
> >
> >There were even some exceptions there.  I'm thinking of the marine and navy
> >pilots on Quadacanal in the early days.
>
>John,
>
>Don't forget that the US Army Air Forces were also on Guadalcanal
>starting in Aug 42 flying their pitiful P-400s and P-39s.
>

Jack,

True.  I didn't mean to slight anybody, it's just that I tend to read more
about the marines and navy pilots.  Also, I know to spell Quadacanal with a
G. :-)

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:20:25 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:49,000 pound bomb

I went home and looked through my books, but the only mention that
I could find was to an experimental US bomb that was 42,000 pounds, no
mention on what plane would carry it.  On the picture does it say what
air force developed it?  The largest British bomb I could find was the
'earthquake' bomb, 22,000 pounds that you dropped near a target so
that the seismic waves could shake it apart (shake, rattle and roll :)
I think the B-36 could carry a monster like that though.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:44:46 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: more on bersaglieri

 I just wanted to expand on a couple of points from my last post on this subjectFirst a couple of small corrections:
        1. I looked at some photos last night and the bersaglieri cockerel plumeis worn on the right side of the headgear (not the left).  BTW, the official
peace-time dress uniform of the bersaglieri consisted of a wide-brimmed hat witha small dome (similar in shape to the British WW1 steel helmet), and a short
grey cape.
        2. The Italian general commanding the "Grupo Schreiber" in Sicily was
Ottorino Schreiber (not "Ottavio").  To expand on my comment that the Schreiber
Group was an Italian formation, I am aware that for part (but not all) of its
existence this formation also had a regiment-sized German battle group under
Col Fullreide nominally under command.  The 177th Bersaglieri Regt did however
play a leading role in the Group's fighting from July 11-21.  It was commanded
by Col. Venturi, and on July 11 and 12 its leading battalion was actually
attempting to attack the U.S. forces in its sector, although it suffered heavy
losses in these actions (and in an air raid on the evening of the 11th).

        I wanted to mention that the bersaglieri regiments forming the infantry
component of the three Italian armored divisions were completely motorized.
One of these regts, the 5th Bersaglieri, had previously (1936-37) formed part
of the first Italian "mixed motorized brigade" and then the first Italian
armored brigade (later upgraded to form Centauro Division).  The bersaglieri
regts in the "celere" divisions were bicycle troops, although their heavy
weapons were motor-transported.  The rest were in theory also bicycle troops,
but in North Africa the independent regts were usually provided truck transport
from higher levels.
        At El Alamein each of the two Italian corps in the front line was
bolstered by one independent bersaglieri regt.  The 7th Bersaglieri fought with
21st Corps in the north, the 9th Bersaglieri with 10th Corps.  The 21st Corps
bersaglieri were deployed as independent battalions, and successfully resisted
the first attacks in their sectors.
        The most famous former bersaglieri among the top Italian commanders
in North Africa was Marshal Ettore Bastico, Italian commander-in-chief for the
Libyan theatre from July '41 till the end of January '43.  Bastico was a noted
historian (having written a book, "The Evolution Of the Art Of War" and also
having been an instructor of history at the Italian Naval Academy), also served
as editor of one of Italy's top military journals.  He was the commander of
the Italian forces in the Spanish Civil War in 1937, earning a field promotion
and the title "Hero of Santander" in the Italian press for his successful
conquest of the rebellious Basque region, and his dismissal soon thereafter
for conducting separate negotiations with the Basques (Franco objected).
In late 1938, following the adoption of the doctrine of "Guerra di Rapido
Corso" (the Italian equivalent of the "Blitzkrieg") he was the first commander
of the fully mobile "Army of the Po" created largely on paper (in theory it had
two armored, two motorized infantry, and three "celere" divisions, but the
first armored division did not go operational until Feb '39).  Despite his
(mutual) dislike for Rommel, Bastico presided over one of the most successful
periods of the Axis campaign in North Africa.

Thats about all I can think of for now.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:02:55 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Question...Aircraft

The FW58 has been adequately described.

I have also drawn a blank on the ME102.  I can't even find a WWII
aircraft with a 102 designation of any kind.

In any event, until the corporate reorganization of the Bayarisch
Flugzugwerke in 1938, the official designation of Willy
Messerschmidt designed aircraft was BF, not ME, thus the BF-108
Taifun and the BF-109.  The first aircraft to officially bear the
ME designation was the ME-110.

Steve New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:12:02 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Old 59

        Tim,

Replacement of "Obsolete" aircraft.

1.  Frontline combat units.

These units were almost never at 100% fill.  New aircraft coming in
didn't usually replace the A/C that they made obsolete, but filled
vacancies in the unit.  Consider all the photographs that show
P-51 Bs and Ds flying formation in the same squadron.  The same for
P-47D Razorbacks and Bubble Tops, and B17 Fs and Gs.

If, by some great luck, newer A/C were received that replaced
combat capable machines, these would be held in reserve to replace
losses, provide refresher training for returned wounded, advanced
training for green replacements etc.

Other secondary roles included weather recon, photographic duties,
radar testing, and providing training targets to train bomber
gunners.

War Weary A/C and battle damaged machines could be turned into
squadron hacks, or as a source of spares.

It was rare to return combat capable A/C to the states, there just
wasn't that much waste to spare in the supply train.  When it did
happen it was usually a particularly famous A/C that was used to
spur War Bond drives (Memphis Belle).

Obsolete aircraft back home were generally relegated to training
duties and squadron hack aircraft.  They were often used to
provide the necessary flight hours for desk jockeys who needed to
earn flight pay.

Many obsolete A/C never made it to a unit to be replaced.  Of the
100 B-32 Dominators built, only 15 saw service.  The remaining 85
were flown from the Consolidated plant to Davis-Monthan where they
were cut up for scrap.

Modification of airframes to upgrade an A/C to a newer version did
take place at times, but only if the modification was simple enough
to be installed in the field.  (i.e. adding solid noses and package
guns to B25s and A26s etc.)  With major differences between models
(P51B to P51D, P40C to P40E etc.) it was actually easier to build a
new airframe from scratch than to rebuild an old one, even though the
original prototype of a new model aircraft was usually modified from
an earlier version.  (Please note, this is under total war production
in the 1940s, when A/C costs were still reasonable.  Under present
conditions, when a fighter costs as much as the GNP of a small
Central American nation, it's cheaper to rebuild the airframe over
and over again.)

Now the Germans, late in the war, were sending damaged BF-109s and
FW-190s to underground factories to be stripped down and rebuilt,
Just like the Army does today with its combat vehicles.  Just as
we do with tanks, it's possible that the Germans improved the
airframes when they rebuilt them.

Finally, some A/C were turned over to allied forces when they were
replaced at the front.  In particular I recall reading that P40Es
were given to both New Zealand and the Netherlands East Indies AF
that had come from AAC squadrons.

In addition:

                Type                    Total Built

Fighters        P61 Black Widow         700
                P63 King Cobra          3303
                F4F Wildcat             8000
                P39 Airacobra           9558
                P38 Lightning           9923
                F6F Hellcat             12272
                F4U Corsair             12681
                P40 Warhawk             13733
                P47 Thunderbolt         15683
                P51 Mustang             15686

Bombers         A35 Vanguards           1528
                Baltimore/Maryland      1575
                A26 Invader             2446
                B29 Superfortress       3970
                B26 Marauder            5157
                SBD Dauntless           5936
                SBC Helldiver           7002
                A20 Havoc               7385
                B17 Fortress            8685
                B25 Mitchell            11000
                B24 Liberator           18188

Scout/Torpedo   PB2Y Coranado           216
                J2F Duck                567
                SOC Seahawk             576
                PB4Y Privateer          977
                PBM Mariner             1000
                OS2U Kingfisher         1519
                PV1 Ventura             1000
                PV2 Harpoon             1000
                Hudson                  2000
                L5 Stinson              3000
                PBY Catalina            3290
                AT17 Bobcat             4199
                L4 Cub                  5500
                T6 Texan                15000

Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
                C54 Skymaster           1100
                C46 Commando            3200
                C47 Skytrain            13000

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:30:10 EST
From:    Mary Evelyn Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Iwo Jima veteran

I am a high school librarian with a 17 year old social studies student who is
looking for a WWII veteran with memories to share about personal experiences
at Iwo Jima. Please respond directly to my address if you fit this description
and would like to enter into a dialoque. Thank you.

Mary Evelyn Hoffman
Naples Jr/Sr High Library
Voice (716) 374-5203
MHoffman@Monroe

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:48:50 -0500
From:    "Rudolph W. Hauschild" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII MEMOIRS

A good source for naval first person accounts is an orginazation called
Sharkhunters. They are based in FLA and produce a monthly news sheet. They
started out to present the history of the U Boat, but they now have many
American, Royal and Japanese sailors who give oral histories that are on
cassette or written in the pages of the monthly. Their ads are in many WAR
periodicals(WORLD WAR II magazine...)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:58:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Sonar

Hello, Tony!

I would only add that the movie "The Enemy Below" was the first movie
in the post-war era that portrayed the Germans as being human beings.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:59:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Hello, Drew!

I thought someone might ask that question. Will check it out. But I
know that the 50,000 figure represents a significant percentage of
those on ops.

    More later.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:00:02 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

>From the DoD Newswire 2 November 1994

:BRITISH WARTIME BOMB DETONATED IN FRANKFURT

    FRANKFURT, Nov 1  - A British wartime bomb was detonated
in a controlled explosion close to a Frankfurt airport runway on
Tuesday.
     The runway was immediately closed to aircraft on Monday afternoon
when the 125-kilogramme (270 pound) World War Two bomb was unearthed
during construction work.
     There were slight delays to incoming flights on Monday evening
and A nearby motorway was closed for several hours during the night.
     Disposal experts decided to detonate the bomb, which had a
delayed-action trigger, on Tuesday morning after working unsuccessfuly
overnight to defuse it, a spokesman for the regional authority said.
     Firemen built an earth wall around the bomb as they waited for a
disposal expert to arrive from North Rhine-Westphalia where devices of
its type are more common, the spokesman said.
     "It was an English bomb which is quite rare in Hesse because
English bombers concentrated on northern and northwestern Germany
during the war," the spokesman said.
     American-made World War Two bombs are found frequently around the
airport, which was a prime target for raids during the war.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:02:14 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. I, 1964, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

BISMARCK SEA (CVE-95)

dp. 7020;
l. 512' 3";
b. 65' 2";
dr. 22' 4";
s. 19.3 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5";
cl. CASABLANCA

BISMARCK SEA was launched 17 April 1944 by Kaiser Co., Inc., Vancouver,
Wash., under a Maritime Commission contract as ALIKULA BAY; sponsored by
Mrs. M. C. Wallgren, wife of Senator Wallgren; renamed BISMARCK SEA 16
May 1944; transferred to the Navy 20 May 1944; and commissioned the same
day, Captain J. L. Pratt in command.

During July and August 1944 BISMARCK SEA escorted convoys between San
Diego, Calif., and the Marshall Islands.  After repairs and additional
training at San Diego, she steamed to Ulithi, Caroline Islands, to join
the 7th Fleet.  During 14-23 November 1944 she operated off Leyte in
support of the operations and later took part in the Lingayen Gulf
landings (9-18 January 1945).  On 16 February she arrived off Iwo Jima
to support the invasion.  On 21 February 1945 despite damaging gunfire
two Japanese suicide planes hit and started uncontrollable fires and set
off ammunition.  All efforts to save the ship were halted by the
exploding ammunition and she sank in 90 minutes with the loss of 318
men.

BISMARCK SEA received three battle stars for her World War II
operations.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:09:01 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:B-32

Steve New's informative post mentioned the B-32, always one of my
favorites.  He mentioned that 15 of them saw service.  Does anyone
on the list know in what theater they served and with what success?
Thanks in advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:12:02 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  49000 Lb Bomb

        I appreciate the suggestions that I've received on this.  It's
        truly unfortunate that the caption attending the photograph
        didn't provide any additional information.  Yes, it's an
        American developed weapon, but alas, no model number is
        provided.

        What I intend to do is to scan this photo into a PCX file, and
        then UUENCODE it so that it can be sent by E:Mail.  If anyone
        thinks this would help the search, or just wants a copy, or even
        just wants to test the technology, please let me know directly
        and I'll E:Mail a copy to you.

        Thanks

        Steve New
        [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:27:00 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: [GEN] Transport planes

Steve L. New Wed, 2 Nov 1994 :

>Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
>                C54 Skymaster           1100
>                C46 Commando            3200
>                C47 Skytrain            13000

Steve, if either you or Emmanuel would please explain to me
and others about these aircraft.

I am familiar with ole C-47/DC-3 but my reference material
lacks C-46, C-54, and C-56 info.  I have never heard of the
Skymaster or Lodestar except on this list.

Just how did these 3 compare to the C-47?

thanks in advance.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:00:00 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

Jim Irwin's report leads me again to ask, what is the rationale for
attempting to defuse a bomb in what appears to have been a relatively
open area?  Why not simply detonate without risking lives?
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:29:37 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:49,000 pound bomb

I would second John Kollar's notion that it was meant for the B-36.
Alternatively, for the B-29 in situations where air opposition was
non-existent, perhaps in blasting out die-hard resistance in deep               bunkers in Japan and southern Germany after occupation. Or it may               have been designed as an anti-sub pen weapon if the war lasted long             enough for the -29 and -36 to see service in Europe. It was disclosed
in 1946. When was it ordered? If we get that, it may tell us a lot.
And what might have been the max load of an up-powered B-19? I recall
an Air Force historian on this line, or was he on MILHST-L? Over....

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:23:28 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Transport planes

> Steve L. New Wed, 2 Nov 1994 :
>
> >Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
> >                C54 Skymaster           1100
> >                C46 Commando            3200
> >                C47 Skytrain            13000
>
> Steve, if either you or Emmanuel would please explain to me
> and others about these aircraft.
>
> I am familiar with ole C-47/DC-3 but my reference material
> lacks C-46, C-54, and C-56 info.  I have never heard of the
> Skymaster or Lodestar except on this list.
>
> Just how did these 3 compare to the C-47?

I'm not either of them... :-)

The C-46 has recently been described as "A DC-3 on steroids."

It physically resembles the C-47 in design and layout, but is much, much
larger.  It's weird to look at one because those little tiny engines just
don't look like they would do anything.  :-)

The Lodestar was an early 30's design by Lockheed... Used mostly for
a civilian airliner... I believe it carried a passenger load of about
12..?  In any case, it's another tail dragger with twin tails off a
single boom.  Big, fat wings with slow-speed slats in the leading edge.
I was told it was really the first "large" aircraft to use leading edge
slats for short field work.  In many respects, it looks like an unrefined
C-45.

The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)

BTW: If anyone wants to actually BUY a Lodestar, there is one locally for
sale.  It has zero-time engines and low to zero time props.  The aircraft
has not flown (other than ferry flights) for many years.  There is a lot
of work to do on it, but if it were restored to a civilian configuration,
it would be a real interesting addition to the airshow circuit.  (It has
no seats in it, but all the overhead padding, lights and air ducts are
still in place).

Skymaster -- Isn't that the cargo version of the Lockheed Constellation?

Alas, I don't have any of the cargo/troop capabilities of these aircraft
handy.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:40:50 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  49000 Lb Bomb

Hello, Steve!

I would be greatly interested in seeing that bomb.

Thanks for the note and offer.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:42:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:B-32

Hello, Brad!

> Steve New's informative post mentioned the B-32, always one of my
> favorites.  He mentioned that 15 of them saw service.  Does anyone
> on the list know in what theater they served and with what success?
> Thanks in advance,

    They served in the Pacific and that is the extent of my
knowledge. I would be very curious to know where they were stationed,
and what targets they bombed.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:46:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

Hello, Patrick!

More than likely they were guards' units. These formations were so
named for their fearless committment to attaining the objective
regardless of losses. Just a thought anyway. These units were
perpetuated in the manner you described.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:49:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

Hello, Mike!

  Interesting you should mention Fullriede. I take it that is the
spelling of this officer's name. I am thinking that this is Fritz
Fullriede who attained the rank of Generalleutnant and was awarded
the oakleaf decoration to the Knight's Cross.

>>  Col Fullreide nominally under command.>

Just curious and the post is most interesting.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:17:25 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Better Late Than Never

>From the DoD Newswire 28 October 1994

:WAR HERO GETS MEDAL 50 YEARS LATE

    LONDON, Oct 27  - The bravery of a British paratrooper in
World War Two has been finally recognised after his medal was
mistakenly awarded to someone else 50 years ago.
     Ted Eaglen parachuted into France in June 1944 on the Allied
invasion that spelt the beginning of the end for Nazi German forces in
Europe.
     He took a German prisoner of war within minutes of landing and
was awarded the Military Medal for his bravery in skirmishes.
     But in a mix-up amid the confusion of battle, the medal was
initially given to another paratrooper with a similar sounding name.
Now a campaign by the Parachute Regiment has belatedly resulted in the
wrong being righted.
     "It's all a bit embarrassing," Eaglen, now 69, told reporters on
Thursday. "It all happened a long time ago. I'm just glad finally to
have it."

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:29:06 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:German Holocaust Museum

>From the DoD Newswire 28 October 1994

:GERM. MAY GET HOLOCAUST MUSEUM

   BERLIN  -- A group of German intellectuals and writers is
launching a drive to build a national Holocaust museum.
   A conference will be held in the western city of Hanover this
weekend to draw attention to the cause, which picked up steam last
year after the Holocaust Memorial Museum opened in Washington, D.C.
   "We need a complete portrayal of Nazi crimes in a central place
and in its own building," organizer Hans-Juergen Haessler said
Thursday.
   Germany has numerous Holocaust memorials, as well as museums and
teaching centers at concentration camp sites, and plans are under
way to build a national Holocaust memorial in Berlin. But there is
no national Holocaust museum.
   The content of such a museum will undoubtedly be controversial.
The German government wanted the U.S. Holocaust museum to include
material on post-war Germany, not just Nazi atrocities.
   Haessler said financial support for a museum should come from
private donations, as well as federal and local governments.
   He said the museum should not only portray the Nazis' slaughter
of 6 million Jews, but the persecution and killing of homosexuals,
Gypsies, political opponents, religious opponents, foreigners and
handicapped people.
   Organizers have gathered 1,300 signatures on a petition,
including author Guenter Grass.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:22:47 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Home: US: Illinois at war

Hello, Peter!

Thanks for the note.

> Wooden tires.
> A lot of people used them, but they were far from populair.

    I'll bet they weren't popular. I can imagine how uncomfortable
they were.

 > They lasted not so long for several reasons,
>    - the wood "disapeared" on the road, some people try to keep them
>      in condition by putting nails in it.
>    - some people prefere to use the wood for cooking
>      ( no electric, no gaz, co coal , only wood but no forest.
>        if we see 2 trees together we say "look a forest" )
>    - our bicycle  was stolen by a  razzia  and then
>      you don't need a replacement for tires.

    Hopefully we won't see the likes of those days again, where wood
has to be used as the primary construction material for tires of any
sort.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:27:31 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:British Bomb at Frankfurt

Hello, Brad!

To answer your question. The "open" areas in which a bomb is to be
detonated are never very far from populated areas. In a country as
small as Germany and the area in which this bomb was found, this area
around the airport is heavily populated. Shrapnel from the bomb
landing in a populated area is a distinct possibility.

Also to physically handle this bomb, i.e. move it elsewhere, runs the
risk of explosion, as the jarring or transit of the bomb could cause
it to explode.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 16:51:43 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: more on bersaglieri

 Yes, I believe that is the same Fullreide.  I also ran across the name in
regard to German units operating in Tunisia in spring '43.  And didn't I see
him mentioned in another post recently.  I'd be interested in seeing a full
biographical sketch of this officer.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:58:45 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN:dangerous jobs

Among the dangerous "jobs" too, being on the Murmansk convoys.
Days without nights, night for days, a freezing hell, ceaseless
attacks by German bombers, wolfpacks chasing you, convoys decimated,
and dying drowned in the icy waters of the arctic.
Wouldn't have liked to be there.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:00:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 3 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 69 P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s on armed
reconnaissance over E Burma, SW and SE China, and N French Indochina hit
targets of opportunity in the Lungling, China area, damage a railroad bridge
S of Lashio, Burma, hit the town of Mangshih, China and destroy a nearby
warehouse. In China, the fighter-bombers hit the town areas and docks at
Takhing and Tengyun, attack troops in the Mosun area, destroy 2 Japanese
fighters near Amoy, hit trains at Hongay, French Indochina, and bomb areas on
Hainan Island.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s, supported by 18
P-47s, hit Nawnghkio Airfield; a single B-25 attacks targets of opportunity
between Myitkyina and Lashio; 90+ fighter-bombers attack bridges, enemy
forces, town areas and numerous targets of opportunity at and Hinlong,
China and Kawngmu, Namhai, Tonlon, Ho-hko, Namhsum, Hkusan, Hkawngwa,
Wingkang, Namhkam, and S of Mansi.  Tenth AF transports fly 240+ sorties to
forward areas.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 49 B-29s, operating from rear
bases in the Calcutta, India area, bomb the Malagon railroad yards in Burma;
almost as many others hit alternate targets.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 50th Troop
Carrier Wing moves from Le Mans to Chartres; HQ 441st Troop Carrier Group
and the 100th and 301st Troop Carrier Squadrons move from St Marceau to Dreux
with C-47s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 140+ B-26s and A-20s hit
a rail overpass at Kaiserslautern, and rail bridges at Neuwied-Irlich, Bad
Munster am Stein, Morscheid and Konz-Karthaus; fighters fly armed
reconnaissance, ground forces cover, attack railroads, bridge, and
observation posts in W Germany, and escort 9th Bombardment Division
aircraft. In France, HQ 64th Fighter Wing moves from Dole to Ludres; HQ
50th Fighter Group and the 10th, 81st and 313th Fighter Squadrons move from
Lyons/Bron to Toul/Ochey with P-47s; the 34th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command (attached to Provisional Reconnaissance
Group), moves from Dijon to Azelot with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 46 B-17s and
B-24s, in an operation adapted to bad weather and flying without escort, bomb
Vienna S ordnance depot, Moosbierbaum oil refinery, Munich W marshalling yard
in Germany, Klagenfurt aircraft factory, the towns of Innsbruck and Graz, and
the rail line SE of Graz; the bombers attack individually, depending on cloud
cover for protection; 30+ other heavy bombers abort due to clearing weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Heavy clouds over most of N Italy
begin to disperse; medium bombers are still grounded but fighter-bombers
manage to fly 8 sorties against gun positions in mountains S of Bologna,
Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 14 B-24s from Guam Island pound shipping at
Chichi Jima and Haha Jima Islands. 34 P-47s from Saipan Island bomb and
strafe Pagan Island.  B-24s from Saipan Island continue armed reconnaissance
and snooper missions over Marcus and Iwo Jima Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-25s bomb Alicante Airfield on Negros Island and P-40s hit a
highway and oil dump N of Ormoc on Leyte Island; HQ 6th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group moves from Biak Island to Leyte Island; the 110th
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves
from Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte Island but the air echelon operates from
Tacloban, Leyte Island with P-40s. A-20s and B-25s bomb Babo Airfield on New
Guinea. During the night of 3/4 Nov harassing strikes are flown at airfields
in the C Philippine Islands, on the NE peninsula of Celebes Island, and on
Halmahera Island in the Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0100Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:49,000 pound bomb

Heny Sirotin writes:

 >I would second John Kollar's notion that it was meant for the B-36.
 >Alternatively, for the B-29 in situations where air opposition was
 >non-existent, perhaps in blasting out die-hard resistance in deep
 >bunkers in Japan and southern Germany after occupation. Or it may
 >have been designed as an anti-sub pen weapon if the war lasted long
 >enough for the -29 and -36 to see service in Europe. It was disclosed
 >in 1946. When was it ordered? If we get that, it may tell us a lot.
 >And what might have been the max load of an up-powered B-19?

The information I have is that the maximum bomb load of the XB-19
was 37,100 pounds (16,828 kg) and that was with a reduced fuel
load.  That was with the R-3350-5 radial engines; I have no figures
for the V-3420-11 liquid cooled engines of the XB-19A.

On 29 Jan 49, a B-36B established a record bomb lift by taking a
pair of dummy 42,000 pound (19,051 kg) bombs aloft at Muroc AFB,
California.  (Before anyone asks, Muroc AFB was renamed Edwards AFB
in Dec 49.)  At a restricted gross weight, the B-36B could carry a
bomb load of 86,000 pounds (39,010 kg).

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:43:44 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTH

Jack, what I would like as a present for the Marine Corps Birthday this year is
that there will be a Marine Corps for as long as this Republic exists and
endures. On another matter, re/your post about Navy and Marine Corps aircraft
markings, write Major John M. Ellott, USMC, Ret., 1608 Frances Drive,
Woodbridge, VA 22191, (703) 494-6114. He is the duty expert on this and has
already published four books on the subject. He was in mhy my office today and
said that he would be glad to hear from you and help you in whatever way he
can. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:26:41 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO"The big what"

Rudi, you mentioned that part of the reason for the Soviet collapse in 41
was because of the offensive dispositions of the army.  Would you (could you)
elaborate on this?

Thanks in advance.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:43:56 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTH

Dear Cheryl, I feel certain that Jim will respond to your post, but I say that
celebrate our birthday by all means and appropriately. Check with your local
Marine Corps recruiting office and the Marines there will supply a colour guard
and anything else that would recognize our day. I would like to know if and how
you do it. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:52:35 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BERSAGLIERE(SP!)

 Good post, Mike, and very informative. Thanks for your research. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:58:47 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MARINE CORPS BIRTH

The birth year of the Marine Corps has been officially established as 1775,
when, on 10 November, the Congress "Resolved, that two battalions of Marines be
raised consisting of one Colonel, two lieutenant Colonels, two Majors &
Officers as ususal in other regimentsetc.....Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:59:41 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN:dangerous jobs

I have heard Merrill's Maurauders had close to a 100% malaria rate,
as well as leeches, parasites, etc.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 03:27:41 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Transport planes

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Robert J. Granvin wrote:

> > Steve L. New Wed, 2 Nov 1994 :
> >
> > >Transports      C56 Lodestar            325
> > >                C54 Skymaster           1100
> > >                C46 Commando            3200
> > >                C47 Skytrain            13000

> The C-46 has recently been described as "A DC-3 on steroids."

The C-46 was the Curtiss Commando, a twin-engined transport plane with a
layout similar to that of the C-47, but larger. It was powered by P&W
R-2800 radials. Most models are recognizable by the unstepped cockit
design, similar to a C-130 or B-29. It entered service in 1943, first at
the 'Hump' route from India to China. Teething troubles on that difficult
route caused the loss of many.

> The Lodestar was an early 30's design by Lockheed... Used mostly for
> a civilian airliner... I believe it carried a passenger load of about
> 12..?  In any case, it's another tail dragger with twin tails off a
> single boom.

The Lockheed model 18 Lodestar was know to the USAAF as the C-56, C-57,
C-59, C-60 and C-66; all but the C-60 model were former civilian aircraft.
They had two engines of the same class as the C-47 (R-1820, R-1830, or
R-1690, depending on the model) but were smaller and aerodynamically more
advanced; so they were faster. Basically, this was the final development
of the better known Lockheed model 12/14 'Electra' series.

> Big, fat wings with slow-speed slats in the leading edge.

The wings were on the contrary rather small --- Lockheed used Fowler flaps
and slats to keep the landing speeds to acceptable limits.

> The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
> of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
> a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)

The Japanese built an improved version of the model 14, Kawasaki Ki.56
'Thalia', that was bigger and lighter --- not really an 18, but along the
same lines. The license-built Lockheed 14 was known as the Tachikawa LO
'Thelma'.

> Skymaster -- Isn't that the cargo version of the Lockheed Constellation?

No, the military version of the Constellation was the C-69, and the Super
Constellation C-121. The Douglas C-54 Skymaster was a military DC-4
(actually the second DC-4 design, because the first was sold to the
Japanese). The C-54 was less graceful than the Constellation: just a more
or less tubular fuselage, with a single tail, and four engines. A reliable
work-horse: on 79642 crossings of the Atlantic, only three were lost.
Roosevelt flew in a C-54 called 'Sacred Cow'.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:30:28 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: IWO JIMA VETERAN

I know several Iwo Jima veterans here in the Washington, DC area and I'll ask
them if they are interested in communicating with your student. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:34:51 EST
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: BOOKS: Sea Eagles - Bf 109T history

I am wrapping up my read of "Sea Eagles: The operational history of the
Messerschmitt Bf 109T" by Francis L. Marshall.  Published 1993, Air
Research Publications, Surrey, England (2nd print April 94)
This is a very nice book.  I do have one gripe, and I'll get that
out of the way.  The paper quality is not good enough to support
the wonderful photos that appear inside.  Either the stock can't
support the ink, or the halftone reproductions are too poor.
There is some wonderful detail there, but you can't see it.
Enough on that, the images are striking in that I can't recall
the last aviation history book that showed so many pictures of
young smiling pilots and then haggard combat pilots, and then
thankful vets or quiet graves.  This really jumped out at me!
The Bf 109T was the "Toni" built for carrier use.  With 70 aircraft
built and no carrier to serve, they went to combat with I./JG77 and
Jagdstaffel Helgoland.  And they operated from June 1941 to August
1944!
The author tracked down Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF records, interviewed
crews from all three, and includes material from family members of
those killed.
There are day-by-day accounts, with a/c lost/damaged, victories
claimed and/or counted, and condition of the crews.
Another great thing is that the Luftwaffe pilots interviewed are
low-rank pilots, with not all those high-kill numbers.  I like to
hear their stories, sometimes more than the aces!
There is technical discussion of the "Toni", and the condition of the
airfields in Norway and Helgoland.  Including the wood-plank runways.
I found it interesting that the low wing-loading of the Bf 109T gave
it more handling at high altitude, but the engine held it back from
giving a proper chase to PRU Mosquitos.  (But they did manage a few
surprises at altitude!)
Each chapter ends with the Luftwaffe loss list, follwed by the RAF
or USAAF loss list.  Interesting to see the ones the Germans gave up
on, but the Allied lists show as aircraft that never came home.
In any case, IMHO this is a nice addition to "War In Europe" libraries,
and a must for Luftwaffe hounds :-)
I believe that Phalanx Books has just started to import these into the
United States, but it could be a different importer.  A lot of the
big aviation book houses list the title.
There is a good index, and the Individual 109T aircraft histories
are listed by Werknummer as an Appendix.
322 pages, all photos B&W.

Enjoy!
Brian Nicklas

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Nov 1994 03:41:09 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Old 59

On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Steve L. New wrote:

>                 P47 Thunderbolt         15683
>                 P51 Mustang             15686

That number must come from a P-51 fan? Its is always claimed that the P-47
was the most built, and that P-51 production was 14819. Certainly sources
do not always agree on the number of aircraft built.  I also have 10037
for the P-38, and 19256 for the B-24, 12731 for the B-17, and 2502 for the
A-26.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Transport planes

Robert J. Granvin writes:

 >The C-46 has recently been described as "A DC-3 on steroids."
 >
 >It physically resembles the C-47 in design and layout, but is much, much
 >larger.  It's weird to look at one because those little tiny engines just
 >don't look like they would do anything.  :-)

The C-46 (Curtiss Model CW-20) and R5C to our former Marine friends
was a "New Era" civil transport inspired by the Boeing 247 and
Douglas DC-2.  Work started in 1935 on a twin-eingine, 36-passenger,
all metal, pressurized airliner that could also carry 8,200 pounds
(3,719 kg) of cargo.  The CW-20 had a wing span of 108 feet 1 inch
(32.94 m) which was over 4 feet (1.26 m) longer than the B-17.  The CW
-20 ended serving the U.S. military in every theater of WWII, in Korea
and the early years in Vietnam as a non-pressurized transport.  A
total of 3,182 C-46/R5C Commandos were delived from 1942 to 1945.

The versions of the C-46 were:

a. C-46A-CU: 25 troop transports with 2,000 hp R-2800-43s.
b. C-46A-CK, -CS, -CU and -HI:  Freighter with cargo loading door
   on port side, strengthened cabin floor and folding seats for up to
   50 troops; 2 2,000 hp R-2800-51s.  Production included 1,041
   C-46A-CUs, 438 C-46A-CKs and 12 C-46A-CSs in Blocks 1 to 60.  500
   C-46A-HIs ordered but only 2 delivered.
c. TC-46A-CU: At least 3 C-46A-CUs converted a crew trainers.
d. XC-46A-CK: 1 C-46A-1-CK used for development tests; back to
   C-46A-1-CK and then to ZC-46A-1-CK.
e. XC-46B-CS: 1 C-46A-1-CK converted with a "stepped" windshield and
   2 2100 hp R-2800-34Ws.
f. XC-46C-CS: Two C-46A-CSs fitting with RATO.
g. C-46D-CU: specialized troop carrier with modified loading doors;
   1410 build in Blocks 1 to 20.
h. TC-46D-CU: 15 C-46D-CUs converted to crew trainers
i. C-46E-CS: single cargo door, 3-bladed prop, stepped windshield
   and 2 2000 hp R-2800-75s; 17 build all to ZC-46E-CS in 1948; 533
   were cancelled at the end of WWII.
j. C-46F-CU: As C-46D-CU but with 2 2000 hp R-2800-75 eninges. 234
   C-46F-1-CUs built and 166 cancelled at the end of WWII.
k. C-46G-CU: As C-46F-CU but with single cargo door and 2 2100
   R-2800-34s; 1 C-46G-1-CU built but converted to XC-113-CS; 229
   cancelled at end of WWII.
l. C-46H-CU: more powerful version of C-46F-CU with twin
   tailwheels; 300 cancelled at end of WWII.
m. C-46J-CS: Projected updated version of C-46E-CS; not built.
n. XC-46K-CU: projected version of C-46F-CU with 2 2500 hp
   R-3350-BDs ; not built.

160 C-46s were transferred to the USMC as R5C-1s.

Comparing the specs of the C-46 vs. C-47 reveals:

PARAMETER/C-46A/C-47B

Span/108 ft/95.5 ft
Length/76.33 ft/63.75 ft
Height/21.75 ft/17 ft
Wing area/1,360 sq ft/987 sq ft
Empty weight/30,000 pounds/18,135 pounds
Gross weight/45,000 pounds/26,000 pounds
Max speed/270 mph/224 mph
Service ceiling/24,500 ft/26,400 ft
Range/3,150 mi at 173 mph/1,600 miles

As can be seen, the C-46 could carry more farther and they were
greater favored by the Air Transport Command.  Toward the end of the
war, some troop carrier outfits were beginning to transitions from
C-47s to C-46s.

 >The Lodestar was an early 30's design by Lockheed... Used mostly for
 >a civilian airliner... I believe it carried a passenger load of about
 >12..?  In any case, it's another tail dragger with twin tails off a
 >single boom.  Big, fat wings with slow-speed slats in the leading edge.
 >I was told it was really the first "large" aircraft to use leading edge
 >slats for short field work.  In many respects, it looks like an unrefined
 >C-45.
 >
 >The Lodestar was used for cargo and paratroop.  The Japanese built many
 >of these aircraft on license and used them for paratroop ships.  I've seen
 >a picture of a Lodestar bearing a large red meatball.  Strange again.  :-)

The C-60 was the Lockheed Model 18 Lodestar.  In USAAF service it
was known as the C-56, C-57, C-59, C-60 and C-66; in USN service it
was known as the R5O.

The Model 18 was a redesigned Model 14 designed for commerical
airline service.  The Model 18 received it's ATC on 30 Mar 40.  The
aircraft had limited success in the U.S. with a total of 33 for the
airlines and 9 for corporate use.  The biggest US buyer was Pan
American who bought 12; 2 went into service in Alaska and 10 to
Panair do Brasil.  Lockheed did much better selling the Model 18
overseas; 87 were sold to various airlines with South African
Airways the largest user with 29 Model 18-08s.

The US Navy was the first to order the Lodestar for US military
use; the USN/USCG versions were:

a. XR5O-1: 1 Model 18-07 for evaluation with 2xR-1820s
b. R5O-1: Staff transport; 2 for USN and 1 for USCG
c. R5O-2: 1 USN version of AAF C-59 with 2xR-1690-25s
d. R5O-3: 4-passenger version of R5O-2 with 2xR-1830s; 3 delivered
e. R5O-4: 7-passenger transport with 2xR-1820s; 12 delivered
f. R5O-5: USN version of AAF C-60 with 14-passenger interior; 41
   delivered
g. R5O-6: USN version of C-60A with 18 paratroop seats; 35
   delivered

The USAAF versions of the Lodestar were:

a. C-56-LO: 1 Model 18-50 for evaluation; 17-seater with 2 1200 hp
   R-1820-89s
b. C-56A-LO: 1 civil Model 18H-07 drafted; 2xR-1690-54s
c. C-56B-LO: 13 civil Model 18-40s drafted; 2xR-1820-97s. First two
   suppled to "Little Norway" in Canad
d. C-56C-LO: 12 civil Model 18-07s drafted.
e. C-56D-LO: 7 Model 18-08s drafted; 2xR-1690-25s
f. C-57-LO: 13 civil Model 18-14s drafted; 2xR-1830-53s
g. C-57A-LO: Reserved for Model 18 to be drafted.
h. C-57B-LO: 7 Model 18-08 drafted; equipped for troops; 2xR-1830-53s
i. C-57C-LO: 3 C-60A-LOs re-engined with R-1830-43s
j. C-57D-LO: 1 C-57C-LO re-engined with R-1830-92s
k. C-59-LO: 10 Model 18-07s for AAF with R-1690-25s; to RAF as
   Lodestar IA
l. C-60-LO: Model 18-56 ordered by AAF with seats for 14 troops; 36
   delivered with R-1820-87s; 16 to RAF.
m. C-60A-LO: As C-60-LO but equipped for paratroop transport with
   18 paratroopers; 325 built in 3 Blocks; bunch to RAF as
   Lodestar II.
n. C-66-LO: 1 Model 18-10 with 11-passenger interior and R-1830-53s
   procured for Brazilian AF.

The Lodestar was obviously outnumbered by the C-46 and C-47 but it
was used on general logistic missions in the ZI, SW Pacific,
Caribbean, Canal Zone and South America.  Most were disposed off
after the war.

 >BTW: If anyone wants to actually BUY a Lodestar, there is one locally for
 >sale.  It has zero-time engines and low to zero time props.  The aircraft
 >has not flown (other than ferry flights) for many years.  There is a lot
 >of work to do on it, but if it were restored to a civilian configuration,
 >it would be a real interesting addition to the airshow circuit.  (It has
 >no seats in it, but all the overhead padding, lights and air ducts are
 >still in place).
 >
 >Skymaster -- Isn't that the cargo version of the Lockheed Constellation?

The Skymaster was the Douglas Commercial Model 4, aka DC-4.
Actually, there were two different DC-4s; the first one was a
4-engine aircraft with a range of 2,200 miles (3,540 km) that
American, Eastern, Pan American, TWA and United Airlines each
committed $100,000 towards the design and construction of one
prototype.  This aircraft was designed to accommodate twice as many
passengers as the DC-3 (42) during the day or 30 at night with full
sleeping accommdoations including a private bridal room.  It was
powered by four 1450 hp P&W R-2180-S1A1-G 14-cyliner radials,
had a tricycle landing gear and had 3 vertical tail surfaces ala
the Lockheed Connie.  The aircraft was very complex for it's day
and Pan Am and TWA chickened out in 1936 and sponsored the less
complex Boeing  307 Stratoliner.  The aircraft made its first
flight on 7 Jun 38 but did not receive it's ATC until 5 May 39 and
it was then handed over to United Airlines.  United used it for
testing and on one occassion, the aircraft took off from Cheyenne
Airport (altitude 6,200 feet or 1,860 m) on 2-engines.  The
complexity of the aircraft, it's excessive maintenance problems and
poor operating economics, casued the sponsoring airlines to suspend
development and the one and only aircraft was sold to the Japanese
in 1939.  It was reported that the aircraft had crashed in Tokyo
Bay but in reality it had been dismantled by Nakajima at the
request of the Japanese Navy and was used as the model for the
design of the Nakajima G5N1 Shinzan bomber.

The airlines agreed to sponsor a less complex aircraft and to avoid
confusion, the one and only DC-4 was redesignated DC-4 Experimental
or DC-4E and work began on the "new" DC-4 at the behest of
American, Eastern and United Airlines.  The new aircraft was 25%
lighter than the DC-4E and had a single vertical tail surface.  No
protype was built; the first completed aircraft was drafted by the
AAF as a C-54-DO in Feb 42; the first flight was 14 Feb 42.  The
production versions were:

a. C-54-DO: 24 aircraft originally ordered by American and United
   Airlines; had 4 1350 hp R-2000-3s and could carry 50 passengers.
b. C-54A-DO and -DC: As C-54-DO but with strengthened airframe,
   cargo loading door, increased fuel capacity, provisions for
   passengers or troops; had 4 1290 hp R-2000-7s; 155 C-54A-DC and 97
   C-54A-DOs built in Blocks 1 to 15. 57 to USN as R5D-1s.
c. C-54B-DC and -DO: As C-54A but with integral wing fuel tanks and
   provisions for stretchers; 120 C-54B-DC and 100 C-54B-DOs built in
   Blocks 1 to 20. 35 to USN as R5D-2 and 1 to RAF as Churchill's
   personal aircraft.
d. C-54C-DO: 1 C-54A-5-DO converted as presidential aircraft with
   15-passenger interior.
e. C-54D-DC: As C-54B but 1350 hp R-2000-11s; 380 built in Blocks1
   to 15. 95 to USN as R5D-3.
f. C-54E-DO: As C-54D-DC but increased fueld capacity, convertible
   passenger/freight interior. 125 built in Blocks 1 to 20; 20 to
   USN as R5D-4.
g. XC-54F-DO: projected troop transport version of C-54E; not built
h. C-54G-DO: As C-54E-DO with 1450hp R-2000-0s.  162 build in
   Blocks 1 to 20.  238 cancelled after WWII ended.

There were many conversions of the C-54/R5D by the military.
After the war, every major airline in the world acquired the DC-4
for commerical operations.  The first North Atlantic flight was on
23 Oct 45 by a C-54 of American Overseas Airlines from New York to
Hurn, England which was serving London with stops at Gander,
Newfoundland and Shannon, Irleand in 23 hours 48 minutes.  During
the following years, Pan Am, KLM, Air France, SAS, Sabena and
Swissair initiated North Atlantic service with the DC-4.
Trans-Pacific service was started by Pan Am and Australian National
Airways with the DC-4.  In Feb 46, American Airlines started DC-4
service in the US on the New York-Chicago route.  Eventually,
American, United, Eastern, Braniff, Capital, Colonial, Delta,
National, Northwest, TWA and Western Airlines all used the DC-4 for
domestic and interantional service.

The mainstay of the Berlin Airlift in 1948-49 was the C-54 and R5D.
Without it, the airlift would have been a failure.

 >Alas, I don't have any of the cargo/troop capabilities of these aircraft
 >handy.
 >

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 17:34:59 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: statue of liberty

Gosh Jack M.,  What a great sight that must have been, the Japanese and
German ships, then the New Jersey, and tall ships.  I'm drooling.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:40:50 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese warships visiting Pearl Harbor

Jim- Thanks for all the info on Pearl.

Do any vessels besides US 'man the rails' or acknowledge the Arizona
Memorial in any way when they pass by? I was wondering about the Japanese
warship you mentioned in a recent post.

---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

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End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Nov 1994 to 2 Nov 1994
***********************************************