Subject: WWII-L Digest - 15 Nov 1994 to 16 Nov 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:00:38 -0500

There are 50 messages totalling 1808 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Naval Chronology by Morrisson (3)
  2. Dieppe Raid in 1942 (2)
  3. INF: Byrd Archives
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-NOV-1944
  5. REMEMBERANCES ON V
  6. Explosive Ordnance Duty
  7. WEAP: P-38 in the Pacific (Part 4)  Charles Lindberg (2)
  8. HIST: PTO vs. ETO (6)
  9. Comet Line
 10. WEAP: P38 in the Pacific (3)
 11. HIST-THE STUDY OF
 12. Revenge on japan
 13. ETO vs PTO (6)
 14. Transcript of Hirohito's surrender broadcasting
 15. GEN: Renegade Officers in WW2
 16. 50TH: BATTLE OF THE HUERTGEN FOREST (3)
 17. WEAP: P-38 in the Pacific (2)
 18. WWII exhibit
 19. PTO vs ETO (4)
 20. HIST:  POWs of the Japanese
 21. War Crimes Japan/Germany
 22. BIBL: Tuskegee Airmen
 23. INF: Copyrighting of articles (2)
 24. ARC: Byrd is down, here's a mirror.
 25. POW
 26. [INF] USAAF 17 NOV 44
 27. Naval Chronology by Morri

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:59:27 EST
From:    "Niraj Agarwalla, UMass-Lowell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Naval Chronology by Morrisson

Does anyone know where I can get the History of the Navy in World War II
by Morrison (sic).  There has been mention of his work in other threads.
An answer would be appreciated.

thanx
niraj Agarwalla
Umass Lowell
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:58:01 -0800
From:    ALEXANDER C MALCOLM <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Dieppe Raid in 1942

My memory on the subject is kind of vague now, but I did know a fair bit
about it once, and maybe some of my tidbits will stir other people with
more knowledge into action

-Raid was supposed to be a reconaissance in force, to gather information
on the defences of Fortress Europe

-The Russians were being brutally walloped at the time, and the Raid was
supposed to alleviate some of the strain on the Eastern Front. {Political
pressure within the Grand Alliance, etc.}

-Prime Minister MacKenzie King was agitating Churchill to put Canadian
troops, which had been training in England for some two years, into action
and "get them blooded".  This was largely the result of the restlessness
of the troops themselves, and pressure on the home front for some good
news (ie: a tactical victory) in the wake of the Hong Kong disaster and
the constant attrition in the Battle of the Atlantic

-The Raid was tactically foolish from the planning stage onwards.  Many
revisionists have claimed that this is why Canadian ("Colonials") troops
were ordered to carry it out instead of the British. [Personally, I don't
ascribe to that view]

-Every possible tactical error occurred.  The flotilla conveying the
landing troops to Dieppe was even spotted by German picket ships while it
was crossing the Channel!

-The tale behind the Radar Station is the mystery.  I had never heard
about the "Radar issue" until two years ago, when I was talking to an old
fellow I'd met in Toronto.  He had met a British gentleman during the
early 1970's who was quite the electronics wizard.  Apparently, the man
claimed that his role in the Dieppe Raid was the sole reason for it
taking place.  He claimed to be the "expert of the era" on radar systems,
and that the whole raid was staged in order to get him ashore to check
out a radar installation the Germans had in the area.  A select group of
ten riflemen from Royal Rifles of Regina(?) were assigned to guard him
and get him to the station and back, which they did.  The mission was top
secret.
        I don't know how true all this is, but one fact that is true is
that the strategic bombing campaign was getting underway at this time,
and intelligence on German air defences (ie: radar) was of the utmost
importance.

The R.H.L.I. fought a good fight...

Hope this was of some help.
Alexander (native of Hamilton!)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:57:00 +0100
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Byrd Archives

Steve New wrote:

>     I haven't attempted to access Byrd this week, because of my experience
>     with them last week.
>
My experience is also very disapointing the last few days.
When I FTP to my favorite site Byrd I get the message
....connecting
and a few seconds later
....connecting terminated.
I hope someone can solve the problem.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 04:41:20 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-NOV-1944

On 17-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Operation Queen continues. In the XIX Corps sector, the
30th Division reaches Wurselen. In the 3rd Army sector, the 10th Division
spreads out to pursue the Germans across the Sarr. The 5th and 95th
Divisions continue to advance towards Metz. The XII Corps is preparing for
the final assault towards the Sarr. The Germans begin a general withdrawal
during the night. Southeast of Luneville, the 100th Division prepares to
attack Raon. The French 1st Army reaches Hericourt, Montbeliard and
Herimoncourt.

China - The Japanese are advancing towards Kweiyang. If they can capture
Kweiyang, the road will be open to Kunming, the Chinese end of the Burma
Road.

The Homefront
-------------
Army-Navy Game Moved To Baltimore - The Navy Department has announced that
the annual Army-Navy football game will be played in Baltimore on Dec. 2nd,
where it can be seen by some 70,000 people instead of at Annapolis, where
attendance would be limited to less than 20,000. The game will be used to
promote the sale of the Sixth War Loan bonds.

Henry Wallace - Vice President Henry Wallace, in New York last week winding
up his speaking campaign for President Roosevelt, did some running of his
own. When his two man police escort returned to their car they found the
Vice President missing. They spotted him running down the street and gave
chase. After two blocks a pedestrian, thinking the Vice President was a
fugitive, joined the chase and grabbed him. The police guard was doubled
but Wallace soon started running again, easily beating his four frantic,
panting guards on a five-block race down crowded Broadway to the Hotel
Astor. Wallace later explained "I just had to get some exercise."

Army & Navy
-----------
Carlson Promoted - The Marine Corps has announced in Washington that Lt.
Col. Evans F. Carlson, organizer and leader of "Carlson's Raiders" who was
wounded on Saipan, has been promoted to colonel.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica and "Time" magazine.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 07:34:33 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REMEMBERANCES ON V

Steve;

Thanx, and I shall. I really like that huge stained glass wall over
by the library.

Last friday I was at a meeting when one of the people in the room
mentioned that it was 11:11 on the 11th month. I reminded her of the
real significance of those numbers. We all then paused 'for breath',
and someof us shared a silent prayer.

My thanks and appreciation go to those who fought for our country
in every conflict. I know I probably couldn't do what they did.

Thanx guys...
                                                        Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:39:42 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Dieppe Raid in 1942

Didn't Zeitzler gain Hitler's attention and favor as a result of being
the local commander at Dieppe?

Zeitzler would later become Hitler's mouth piece as Chief of Staff of
the German High Command (OKH) in 1943 (?).

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:36:40 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Explosive Ordnance Duty

     This was passed through the office as a stress reduction technique.
     The story is WW-II related, and shows what was happening at the
     starting end of the EOD issue.

          "Try to bear lightly what needs to be."  - Socrates

          During World War II millions of frightened soldiers had
          either to accept the inevitable or break under the strain.
          The following is a true story by William H. Casselius of
          Glendale, New York:

          "Shortly after I joined the Coast Guard, I was assigned to
          one of the hottest spots this side of the Atlantic.  I was
          made a supervisor of explosives!  Imagine it.  Me!  A
          cracker salesman becoming a supervisor of explosives!  The
          very thought of finding yourself standing on top of
          thousands of tons of TNT is enough to chill the marrow in a
          cracker salesman's bones.  I was given two days of
          instruction; and what I learned filled me with even more
          terror.  I'll never forget my first assignment.  On a dark,
          cold foggy day, I was given my orders on open pier of Caven
          Point, Bayonne, New Jersey.

          "I was assigned to Hold No. 5 on my ship.  I had to work
          down in that hold with five longshoremen.  They had strong
          backs, but they knew nothing whatever about explosives.  And
          they were loading blockbusters, each one contained a ton of
          TNT - enough to blow that old ship to kingdom come.  These
          blockbusters were being lowered by two cable slings.  I kept
          saying to myself: Suppose one of those cables slipped or
          broke! Oh, boy!  Was I scared! I trembled.  My mouth was
          dry. My knees sagged.  My heart pounded.  But I couldn't run
          away.  That would be desertion.  I would be disgraced - my
          parents would be disgraced - and I might be shot for
          desertion.  I couldn't run.  I had to stay.  I kept looking
          at the careless way those longshoremen were handling those
          blockbusters.  The ship might blow up any minute.  After an
          hour or more of spine-chilling terror, I began to use a
          little common sense.  I gave myself a good talking to.  I
          said, "Look here!  So you are blown up. So what!  You will
          never know the difference!  It will be an easy way to die.
          Much better than dying of cancer.  Don't be a fool you can't
          expect to live forever!  You've got to do this job - or be
          shot.  So you might as well like it.

          "I talked to myself for hours; and I began to feel at ease.
          Finally, I overcame my worry and fears by forcing myself to
          accept an inevitable situation.

          "I'll never forget that lesson.  Every time I am tempted now
          to worry about something I can't change, I shrug my
          shoulders and say 'Forget it.'  I find that it works - even
          for a cracker salesman.

          The above story was told to Dale Carnegie and recorded in
          his book, "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:14:35 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Chronology by Morrisson

S. E. Morison's HISTORY OF UNITED STATES NAVAL OPERATIONS IN
WORLD WAR II, 15 volumes published by Little, Brown, is listed in
the fall Military History catalog of The Scholar's Bookshelf,
110 Melrich Road, Cranbury NJ  08512.  No phone, fax, or e-mail
data given in the catalog, which is good through Feb 28.  The price?
A mere $395.00, marked down from the original $600.00.

In response to query by niraj Agarwalla, Umass Lowell

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:20:33 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P-38 in the Pacific (Part 4)  Charles Lindberg

Steve L. New <[email-masked]> writes:
> Through the expedient of installing one 310-gallon external fuel
> tank in place of one 165-gallon tank, fuel capacity could be raised
> to almost 900 gallons, giving a combat range of over 11 hours (and
> that still provided 10 to 15 minutes of fighting time).

Semi-silly question:
How did fighter pilots relieve themselves during these long missions?
Did they have a chamber pot or catheter?  I can't imagine them holding
"it" for 11 hours!
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I thought I told you to get me a good-lookin'
kid -- not this fat, sausage-chewin' wino!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:20:29 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

   Lately, some people have been discussing the Battles of Okinawa vs.
Normandy and the PTO vs. the ETO in general.  I, not as an expert but
as an American citizen and student, will address these issues.  Normandy
and Overlord were much more heralded and remembered today (as well as
then, I think) for several reasons.  It was a big operation, and involved
units of all the Allies.  But most importantly it gave a tangible hope that
America would win the war.  Fortress Europa was breached, the Germans
dealt a decisive blow, and it looked as if the boys would be home by
Christmas, while one month before the outcome of the war was still unknown.
   Okinawa, however, was essentially an American battle.  It did not herald
in the defeat of the Japanese - that seemed to have already been decided
some time ago.  Instead, it was a hard battle on the long but straight
road to victory.
   As for the PTO vs. the ETO, it seemed to me that during the war the
Pacific was the more important area of the war as far as the public was
concerned.  If no one liked Hitler, the Japanese were the real enemy,
having bombed Pearl Harbor and all.  Indeed, it was only by the clever
machinations of Churchill that Europe First was the policy, rather than
Pacific first, for which most Americans desired.  Clear and easy = they
wanted revenge.
   But today we remember the ETO more because Hitler and the Nazis symbolize
evil in the modern world.  The Japanese weren't friendly or nice, but they
did not have the aura of evil that the Nazis had with their marches, flags,
etc.  Hitler was the devil's partner, while Tojo was just a little too
aggressive.  These opinions are not necessarily mine, but those held (if
I may generalize) by the American public.  That is why and how America
sees WWII today.
   Anyone disagree?

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:33:46 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P-38 in the Pacific (Part 4)  Charles Lindberg

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion
List writes:
> Steve L. New <[email-masked]> writes:
> > Through the expedient of installing one 310-gallon external fuel
> > tank in place of one 165-gallon tank, fuel capacity could be raised
> > to almost 900 gallons, giving a combat range of over 11 hours (and
> > that still provided 10 to 15 minutes of fighting time).
>
> Semi-silly question:
> How did fighter pilots relieve themselves during these long missions?
> Did they have a chamber pot or catheter?  I can't imagine them holding
> "it" for 11 hours!

Imagine it.

Also imagine all the different options, including baggies, annoyed laundries
and very (very) unhappy ground crews.

Actually one of those little bits of trivia that most people don't ask about,
don't want to know about, don't want to talk about -- yet some pilots take a
strange pleasure in talking about the tendancy of the belly of the aircraft
to corrode faster than the rest.

And I complain when cheap paper towels are used in restrooms... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:45:36 -0500
From:    Mark Rothenberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comet Line

My error.  Many thanks for the well-earned correctiveon the B17F (which I
discovered on re-unearthing my copy of Comet Connection) and update on Watt.
Sorry to learn of his death.

Mark Rothenberg
Suffolk Cooperative Library System
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:50:24 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

I for one disagree. I put the Japanese as culpable as the Germans. IMHO we
Americans have forgotten Pear Harbor,the rape of Nanking,the Bataan Death
March,the treatment of POWs for a few. The Japanese do have the aura of evil in my opinion.
Every anniversary of Pear Harbor I call the Hartford Courant (one of the nation's oldest newspapers if not the oldest) and remind them to give some press to
the event.
I mention that the holocaust is always in the paper but just a few lines on
Pearl Harbor once a year.

Of course when that Commission changes the history books to make them "politically correct" will it all matter?

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:04:12 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: P38 in the Pacific

> Semi-silly question:
> How did fighter pilots relieve themselves during these long
> missions? Did they have a chamber pot or catheter?  I can't
> imagine them holding "it" for 11 hours!-- Joe Barone

******************************

> Actually one of those little bits of trivia that most people don't
> ask about, don't want to know about, don't want to talk about --
> yet some pilots take a strange pleasure in talking about the
> tendancy of the belly of the aircraft to corrode faster than the
> rest. And I complain when cheap paper towels are used in
> restrooms... :-)  Robert J. Granvin

*****************************

It's true, very few of the articles I've read covering extremely
long missions, (and P-38 missions were short compared to the P-51s
that flew from Britain to Russia & back) would address this issue.
Generally, each pilot was left to his own devices, as they say.
There were no in flight provisions built into the A/C or flight
suits.  I have heard at least one pilot claim to turn condums into
"water balloons", but I didn't have the chance to ask him what
happened to them in combat.

Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:21:32 -0500
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Chronology by Morrisson

On Tue 15 Nov 1994 23:59:27, Niraj Agarwalla <[email-masked]> asked:
> Does anyone know where I can get the History of the Navy in World War II
> by Morrison (sic).  There has been mention of his work in other threads.

Samuel Elliot Morison's _History of United States Naval Operations in World
War Two_ is a 15 volume work.  It contains a wealth of detail, but is flawed
in many ways.  First, it was written right after the war, and so lacks the
perspective of time and the voices of the many scholars who have studied
these matters since.  It also lacks much of the then-secret information
pertaining to codebreaking.  Finally, it relies heavily on the opinions of
those people (notably Adm King and his staff) who Morison had access to.

All said and done, this is a useful work to consult, but expensive to
acquire.  Find a library with a copy and consult that.  You might look for
Morison's _The Two Ocean War_, which is a condensed (one volume) and
revised (1963) version of the full _History_ that's now available in
large-format paperback from The Atlantic Monthly Press.  Then get a copy
of Van der Vat to hear what the Brits were up to, Lundstrom for the brown-
shoe perspective, Sledge for the leathernecks...then a bigger house to
hold them all, at which point you have room for all 15 volumes of Morison.
--
Peter Smith -- [email-masked]
Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 07:28:18 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST-THE STUDY OF

At 11:46 PM 11/15/94 -0500, Ben Frank wrote:
>As much as I respect, revere Holland Smith, I must warn those who read his
>"Coral and Brass" that it was written in anger, striking out at his perceived
>and real enemies, most of whom wore the Army uniform, and this goes back to
>World War I. He didn't have too much love for the Navy, either. One only has to
>read about his volcanic arguments with the arrogant Richmond Kelly Turner, a
>naval officer who thought he knew how to conduct amphibious landings and ground
>operations better than any Marine because he was a platoon leader at the Naval
>Academy. Smith had no great love for Nimitz, whom he felt did not support him
>and his Marines against such SOBs, and I'm being kind and a Marine, as LtGen
>Robert "Nelly" Richardson, who was Nimitz' Army deputy, and who thought that
>Marines should not command units as large as a division, much less a corps. I
>could go on, but I become quite angry when I remember that Nimitz did not even
>have the grace to invite Holland Smith to the surrender ceremony on board the
>Missouri. Ben Frank

Have you ever thought what a meeting of Howlin Mad Smith, Terrible Turner,
and Admiral King must have been like?  Talk about three agressive,
assertive, abrasive personalities!  I belive it is in _The Amphibians, They
Came to Conquer_ that there is a picture of Turner walking his little Lhasa
Apso dogs.  It seems so incongruous to see this man with the fierce
reputation with these fluffy little dogs.  (However, if you own one (or are
owned by one), as I do, you know they are fiesty little scrappers)

Ben, this is sort of trivial, but would you be willing to share your
opinion on the story that Turner Choked to death on a chicken sandwich?
I've heard that he choked on the sandwich in a rage, but I recall
_Amphibians_ debunking that story.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:33:31 -0500
From:    Michael Andrew Turton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Revenge on japan

Paul M. Fussell suggested in Wartime that the reason
Americans agreed to the ETO-first approach is that it
would leave them leisure to really finish off the Japanese,
the real task at hand.

Mike Turton
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:43:23 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ETO vs PTO

     This is certainly restricted to my opinion, but I believe there are
     two reasons that the ETO has taken precedence over the PTO in the
     public mind.

     First off, most Americans come from families that originated in
     Europe.  Places like Budapest, Paris, Hamburg, Naples etc. are real
     world to the majority of the American public, where Leyte, Cebu,
     Kwajelien, Iwo Jima etc. might as well come out of Shangri La.
     Another aspect of this is that editors could send reporters to Europe
     more easily than to the Pacific.

     The second aspect, in my opinion, has crept up since the war ended.
     Let's face it, American anti-Japanese propoganda during the war years
     was heavily and crudely racist.  We, the melting pot, don't like to
     remember that we actually behaved that way, and therefore tend to push
     the Pacific out of our consciousness.

     When it comes to atrocities, I really can't see any reason to choose a
     "winner" between NATZI Germany and Imperial Japan.  They both
     represented unrestrained evil.

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:48:52 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P38 in the Pacific

> > Semi-silly question:
> > How did fighter pilots relieve themselves during these long
> > missions? Did they have a chamber pot or catheter?  I can't
> > imagine them holding "it" for 11 hours!-- Joe Barone
>
> ******************************
>
> > Actually one of those little bits of trivia that most people don't
> > ask about, don't want to know about, don't want to talk about --
> > yet some pilots take a strange pleasure in talking about the
> > tendancy of the belly of the aircraft to corrode faster than the
> > rest. And I complain when cheap paper towels are used in
> > restrooms... :-)  Robert J. Granvin
>
>
> *****************************
>
> It's true, very few of the articles I've read covering extremely
> long missions, (and P-38 missions were short compared to the P-51s
> that flew from Britain to Russia & back) would address this issue.
> Generally, each pilot was left to his own devices, as they say.
> There were no in flight provisions built into the A/C or flight
> suits.  I have heard at least one pilot claim to turn condums into
> "water balloons", but I didn't have the chance to ask him what
> happened to them in combat.

Most of the time they were deposited on the enemy as well as their
normal "cargo."

No one believes that bomber crews brought back every empty ammo can,
do they?  :-)

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:49:22 EDT
From:    Yk Yang <[email-masked]>
Subject: Transcript of Hirohito's surrender broadcasting

It would be highly appreciated if anyone could point out where I can
find the transcript of Hirohito's surrender broadcasting. Please
note that I am not looking for the surrender document but the
transcript of the surrender speech broadcasted on Aug. 15, 1945 or
so. Thanks a lot!

Yang

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:54:00 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P38 in the Pacific

On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Steve L. New wrote:

> > Semi-silly question:
> > How did fighter pilots relieve themselves during these long
> > missions? Did they have a chamber pot or catheter?  I can't
> > imagine them holding "it" for 11 hours!-- Joe Barone
>
> ******************************
>
> > Actually one of those little bits of trivia that most people don't
> > ask about, don't want to know about, don't want to talk about --
> > yet some pilots take a strange pleasure in talking about the
> > tendancy of the belly of the aircraft to corrode faster than the
> > rest. And I complain when cheap paper towels are used in
> > restrooms... :-)  Robert J. Granvin
>
>
> *****************************
>
> It's true, very few of the articles I've read covering extremely
> long missions, (and P-38 missions were short compared to the P-51s
> that flew from Britain to Russia & back) would address this issue.
> Generally, each pilot was left to his own devices, as they say.
> There were no in flight provisions built into the A/C or flight
> suits.  I have heard at least one pilot claim to turn condums into
> "water balloons", but I didn't have the chance to ask him what
> happened to them in combat.
>
> Steve New
>
It may be strange to bring the King of Thailand into a discussion of
bodily functions on long range fighter missions, but it is relevant.  As
some of you may know the King personally hands to each graduate of all
major universities in Thailand the graduate's diploma.  This requires him
to sit for eight hours a day (with, I think, a break for lunch) for
several days.  He avoids having to interupt the (almost choreographed)
ceremony by not drinking any liquids for several hours before the start
thereof.

Perhaps that is how the fighter pilots did it.  No beverages for several
hours before departure.  And perhaps no food either!  Liquids can be
handled, but what about feaces?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:56:58 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Renegade Officers in WW2

In the book Tannozen, it talks about some Kamakazie pilots strafing thier
own bases before leaving on their first/last mission. i guess that this
might fall under the heading of renegade (or perhaps just angery)-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | Faber est suae quisque fortunae-
Grad Student            |
Department of History   | Each man is the smith of his own fortune-
University of Arkansas  |
[email-masked]   | -Appius Claudius Caecus

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:23:40 -0500
From:    Tom Shirhall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

I'm old enough (61) to remember WWII. The PTO and the advance of the Russian
Army was documented daily in the newspapers between 1942 to 1944. The
invasion of Europe was a singular event, which was really only equalled by
the dropping of the A bomb for dramatic intensity.

As for current attention, with the Cold War, the US concentrated on the
European community, so it's not surprising that most of the attention was
addressed in that direction. Besides, most all the PTO battle sites are very
remote and unimportant today. Now, if we'd had invaded Japan......

Tom Shirhall
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:01:48 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: BATTLE OF THE HUERTGEN FOREST

        The Summer 1994 issue of Military History Quarterly touched upon
this battle in an article concerning war games that are used by the military
to teach players how to think under the extreme conditions of war without
the expensive cost of actual warfare.

        On the morning of November 2, 1944, a real-war game was quite
accidently played when the staff of the German Fifth Panzer Army met
to plan possible new moves in the battle shaping up at the western edge
of the Hurtgen Forest using wargaming techniques.

        "The map exercise had hardly begun," an account of the game
says, "when a report was received that according to all appearances
a fairly strong American attack had been launched in the Hurtgen-Gemeter
area" -- exactly where the map exercise was being played.  Field Marshal
Walther Model, whom Hitler had frequently called his best field marshal,
ordered the players -- except commanders of units under attack or directly
threatened -- to continue playing, using messages from the front as the
basis for game moves.  Twelve generals and members of their staffs joined
Model in merging a game's theory and a battlefield's reality.  As one of
the generals later recalled, Model "directed that the actual situation be
taken for [the] basis of the map maneuver."

        At the game table, players decided that a reserve unit, the 116th
Panzer Division, had to be thrown into battle.  The commander of the 116th,
who was playing the game, turned to his operations officers and couriers
and issued actual orders that paralleled his gaming orders.  "The alerted
division," according to German general Friedrich J. Fangor, "was thereby
set in movement in the shortest conceivable time.  Chance had transformed
a simple map exercise into stern reality."  The game was ended at noon,
when the commander in chief of the Seventh Army "asked to be allowed to
return to his command post."  The moves of the game, reflected in the
moves on the battlefield, sealed off the American penetration.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I'm not interested in defenders, I'm interested in hotels, OK?  Hey,
look, you have to think of us as tourists.  I don't want any military
information, I just want to know which hotel is the most comfortable.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:00:22 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P-38 in the Pacific

I remember reading somewhere that some P-51 pilots used "Conductors'
Friends", a bottle that attached to your thigh (under your clothing),
with appropriate plumbing to make the connection.  I guess any profession
that spends hours in one place with no chance to visit facilities has
a need for such inventions.

On a serious side, wasn't there a problem with B-17 and B-24 crewmen
relieving themselves on long flights in the bombbay?  At high altitudes,
the liquid froze and the doors would not open over the target.  Planes
returned to England with their bombs, but the ice thawed when they
decended to lower altitudes, so there was some question about whether
there had actually been a problem or not.

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:41:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: P-38 in the Pacific

Tim Watts writes:

 >On a serious side, wasn't there a problem with B-17 and B-24 crewmen
 >relieving themselves on long flights in the bombbay?  At high altitudes,
 >the liquid froze and the doors would not open over the target.  Planes
 >returned to England with their bombs, but the ice thawed when they
 >decended to lower altitudes, so there was some question about whether
 >there had actually been a problem or not.

That was one of the first problems that the Brits encountered when
they began to use their Boeing Fortress Mk Is in 1940 or 41.  The
crew would relieve themselves before takeoff and the urine would
freeze when they climbed to altitude and the bomb bay doors would
not open.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:41:03 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ETO vs PTO

On Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:43:23 EDT Steve L. New said:
>
>     When it comes to atrocities, I really can't see any reason to choose a
>     "winner" between NATZI Germany and Imperial Japan.  They both
>     represented unrestrained evil.
>
>     Steve New

  I disagree.  The crimes of the Nazis far outweigh those of the Japanese
in modern American political thought.  Look at Schindler's List, for example;
there hasn't been any movie about the Rape of Nanking, has there?  When
people are criticized in politics - domestic and international - by
Americans, it is more common to compare them to Hitler than to Tojo or
Hirohito.  A few miles away from me there is a Holocaust museum, but no
Bataan Death March museum (though there is a Bataan Street).
   Hitler and the Nazis have come to represent unrestained evil.  That does
not say that the Japanese were any better, only that the American public
seems to have given them something of a break (probably for the racist
attitudes that Steve had mentioned).

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:32:53 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ETO vs PTO

"only that the American public seems to have given them something of a break"
or the news media is publishing what an ethnic group wants published re the
Second World War and Germany.
I'm sorry  that I don't know of a better way to word how I feel about this
matter. The governments of Germany and Japan should both be held accountable
to the same degree in my opinion-not one more so than the other.
I was born in 1942 and all of my uncles were in the U.S. Navy at the time.
As a matter of fact one of my mothers relatives (possibly an uncle) was the
radio operator on the B-17 that crashed in Greenland. I've got the Life maga-
zine article somewhere.
They were rescued when a small lake developed and a sea plane (possibly a PBY)
landed and took them off.
Who remembers that one?

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:36:34 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

Also, go to France and ask about the Germans, they will complain, but
go to Korea or the Phillipines, and you will see what real race
hatred is like.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:53:47 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ETO vs PTO

At 12:41 PM 11/16/94 -0500, William Lippert wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:43:23 EDT Steve L. New said:
>>
>>     When it comes to atrocities, I really can't see any reason to choose a
>>     "winner" between NATZI Germany and Imperial Japan.  They both
>>     represented unrestrained evil.
>>
>>     Steve New
>
>
>  I disagree.  The crimes of the Nazis far outweigh those of the Japanese
>in modern American political thought.  Look at Schindler's List, for example;
>there hasn't been any movie about the Rape of Nanking, has there?  When
>people are criticized in politics - domestic and international - by
>Americans, it is more common to compare them to Hitler than to Tojo or
>Hirohito.  A few miles away from me there is a Holocaust museum, but no
>Bataan Death March museum (though there is a Bataan Street).
>   Hitler and the Nazis have come to represent unrestained evil.  That does
>not say that the Japanese were any better, only that the American public
>seems to have given them something of a break (probably for the racist
>attitudes that Steve had mentioned).
>
>William Lippert
>The American University

Yesterday's WSJ had a book review by former Secretary of Navy Lehmen (sp)
of a book on Japanese Atrocities during WWII.  I don't have the title with
me, but I could probably find it if anyone is interested.

As always when this comes up I recommend

    Dower, John W.
    War without mercy : race and power in the Pacific war.

I think it is a good book to read to try to understand how our views about
the Japanese and Germans differed.

Speaking of books, I have found used book stores to be good sources of WWII
books.  Perhaps the book owners are dying off and the books get sent to
these stores.  For example, I've picked up _Guadacanal Diary_ for a dollar
and Morison's _Two Ocean War_ in excellent condition for five.

So many books, so little time ...

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:11:29 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII exhibit

I want to invite any members of this discussion group who might be in
Milwaukee between now and 4 June 1995 to visit the Milwaukee Public Museum
to see our new exhibit honoring the 50th Anniversary of the US victory in
WWII. The exhibit is entitled: "Fruit Salad, Scrambled Eggs, and Hash Marks:
U.S. Military Insignia and Medals in World War II." It includes 31 half
and two full-size manikins, 20+ original WWII posters, and many examples of
insignia from all of the services.

        Among the specimens on display are the three Medals of Honor earned
by Lt.Col. H.W. (Indian Joe) Bauer, USMC (posthumous for Guadalcanal),
Lt.Cdr. Edward H. (Butch) O'Hare, USN (for 20 Feb. 1942), and Major Horace
S. Carswell, USAAF (posthumous award, only one to a pilot in CBI). Featured
uniforms include those of General of the Army George C. Marshall and Fleet
Admiral Chester Nimitz, as well as an Eagle Squadron pilot and many
others. Also on display is Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.,'s steel pot (the one
with the three stars often seen in photos) and a set of his ribbons worn in
July 1945.

        Anyone from the group who might be coming to Milwaukee should
contact me by e-mail. If mutually convenient I'd be happy to take you
through the exhibit.

        My apologies also for not following up on the Frank Jack Fletcher
queries. Now that this exhibit is open, I'll have time to exchange opinions
regarding this controversial naval commander.

                John Lundstrom [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:12:31 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: PTO vs ETO

     > When it comes to atrocities, I really can't see any reason to choose
     > a "winner" between NATZI Germany and Imperial Japan.  They both
     > represented unrestrained evil.
     > Steve New

     > I disagree.  The crimes of the Nazis far outweigh those of the
     > Japanese in modern American political thought.

     > William Lippert
     > The American University

     B--- S--- on political correctness.  Mass murder for political
     expediency isn't any different just because of the shape of your eyes.

     If the American Public doesn't hold the same feelings now about the
     Japanese atrocities now that they did in the '40s it's probably
     because they aren't being publicized and taught in the schools like
     the Holocaust is.

     It still doesn't make them any better.

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:30:29 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ETO vs PTO

John Riegsecker used book scrouge extraordinaire says;

>Yesterday's WSJ had a book review by former Secretary of Navy Lehmen (sp)
>of a book on Japanese Atrocities during WWII.  I don't have the title with
>me, but I could probably find it if anyone is interested.

Wasn't much of the Japanese atrocities supressed immediatly after the war
to help public acceptance of Hirohito remain Emporer? Now that it has started
comming out, many people are disinterested: It was 50 years ago, not yesterday.

>So many books, so little time ...

I agree. What a joy it would be to be able to read for pleasure again!

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:39:50 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PTO vs ETO

On Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:12:31 EDT Steve L. New said:
>     B--- S--- on political correctness.  Mass murder for political
>     expediency isn't any different just because of the shape of your eyes.
>
>     If the American Public doesn't hold the same feelings now about the
>     Japanese atrocities now that they did in the '40s it's probably
>     because they aren't being publicized and taught in the schools like
>     the Holocaust is.
>
>     It still doesn't make them any better.
>
>     Steve New

I hope that readers don't think that I advocate placing the guilt on
Nazi Germany or forgetting about the Japanese.  I'm not; I'm merely
attempting to say how America generally views the war and those who
were responsible for it.
    I'm afraid that Steve is all too correct aboutthe teaching of WWII
in schools.  Only through my own, personal studies was I able to find
out about the Japanese attrocities.  I never heard much of it mentioned -
not even here in college.  In fact, there was this one liberal prankster
girl who tried to tell me that we, the United States, had committed a
great humanitarian crime against the Japanese for imposing the Constitution
on them.  Of course she'd never heard of Nanking or the Bataan Death March.
    What particularly distresses me is that this trend is not being reversed
but propelled by the Commission on US and World History (or some other such
hotbed of charlatans).  They seek to harp on the wrongs the US has done and
forget the rights.  It's dispicable.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:50:09 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: BATTLE OF THE HUERTGEN FOREST

For those interested, I have compiled the complete account of the 22d Infantry
Regiment in the Hurtgen Forest, with the day by day Regimental Journal Files
and After Action Reviews of the surviving soldiers and much other data.  I
can post the day to day occurances from 16 November to 3 December if you would
like.
Ernest Hemingway compared the Hurtgen forest to the British Offensive in
Paschendale during World War I.  Many of the opposing German generals also
compared the battle to those of 1917-18 and von Gersdorf said it was more
horrendous than any he experienced on the Russian Front.

For your consideration 16 November

At 2245 hours on 15 November, the 4th Division's infantry regiments received
the tentative word the attack would commence 16 November.

The morning of the attack began with increased activity from the Germans.
First, indiscriminate heavy shelling from either 170mm or 240mm guns injured
eight soldier in King Company 3d Battalion.  Then, at 1015, a patrol from the
1st Battalion ran into a German patrol while checking telephone wire.  In the
ensuing firefight one German was wounded and one American was captured.  One of
the observation posts reported increased sniping.

At 1245 hours 16 November, the lead elements of the 2d Battalion 22d Infantry
stepped across the Roter Weh stream, followed by soldiers of the 1st and 3d
Battalions.  Although the VII Corps had delayed the attack until there was good
weather for bombing, there was no air support used in the 22d's sector.
Colonel Charles Lanham, the 22d's regimental commander, had also rejected the
use of a traditional artillery preparation before the attack.  Instead, he had
the artillery fire on the flanks of the proposed regimental penetration in the
hopes of misleading the Germans.  In keeping with his efforts to deceive the
enemy as to the regiment's objectives, Lanham also directed the battalions
avoid the trails and advance through the woods.

Although surprise was not complete, the lead company of the regiment advanced
about 600 yards in thirty minutes before making any contact.  Lanham's efforts
in concealing the attack helped the assault companies in their advance by
preventing the German artillery from pinpointing their movement.  For the first
two hours of the attack, all the reports from the battalions to regiemnt and
regiment to division cited little or no resistance and that things were "going
well".  That pronouncement soon changed.

George Company, 2d Battalion, led the regimental advance, with its 3d Platoon
leading the company and the remaining platoons following in column.  The
company climbed the steep east side of the Roter Weh Valley and began to travel
northeast through the dense pine woods which greatly limited visibility.  About
600 yards beyond the Roter Weh, the 3d Platoon scouts encountered their first
Germans, who fired a few shots and fell back to warn their comrades.  As the
company continued to climb the hill it began to receive machinegun fire from
the German positions.  From that moment, until the 22d left the Hurtgen
seventeen days later, the front line companies seldom made a move free from
enemy fire.

Lieutenant Twomey, the George Company Commander, after first trying to use his
60mm mortars to flush the enemy from their holes, brought up another platoon
and with the help of the regimental Cannon Company, overran the initial German
position.  The two platoons moved forward yelling and firing their weapons from
the hip.  This was too much for the Germans and they fell back, with the
Americans catching glimpses of them fleeing through the trees.  After the
company crossed the promontory known as Rabenheck, it halted at 1630 hours and
dug in on the east slope of Hill 201.

Easy Company, the next company in line, came up a small draw on the left of
George Company, shifting slightly to the left as it maneuvered through the
woods.  Its lead platoon ran into a German fortified position covered by a
barbed wire entanglement and mines in the draw north of Hill 201.  Here the
2d Platoon Leader, Second Lieutenant Erwin Mitman, recently awarded a battle
field commission, was killed as he moved forward to recon the enemy position.
The platoon medic, Private First Class Harry Coles, raced forward to help, only
to also be killed.  These two soldiers were probably the first in the 22d to
die in the Hurtgen forest.  When George Company called for Easy Company to come
forward, the company commander, Captain Arthur Newcomb decided to bypass the
enemy position.  Easy Company dug in for the night on George Company's left, in
the draw north of Rabenheck, overlooking Road W.

Later in the night, when he discovered supplies could not get up to the forward
units, the 2d Battalion Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Glenn Walker, ordered
Easy Company to go back and destroy the enemy position.  Captain Newcomb sent
Lieutenant William Mason with one reinforced squad from Easy Company and two
squads from 1st Platoon Able Company, 1st Battalion, to destroy the German
position.  The enemy entrenchment consisted of from twelve to fourteen log
covered emplacements surrounding a large pillbox withthe entire area ringed by
barbed wire.  Mason's three squads advanced on line and took out one bunker at
a time.  Four Germans were captured out of the fifteen or sixteen manning
the bunkers.  The rest were killed.

During the first day's fight, the 2d Battalion had succeeded in driving a
very small wedge into the German forward defenses, but at a high cost.  Losses
for the regiment were reported as nine officers and forty-six enlisted men,
with the majority coming from the 2d battalion.  Actual losses were four
officers and sixty-nine enlisted.  Since no vehicles could get forward, the
soldiers of the weapons platoons hand carried the casualties 1000 yards back
over the original attack route during the night.  Ont he return trip to their
companies, the soldiers carried forward supplies to the battalion.

The area of the Hurtgen forest battle is on the German-Belgian border just
southeast of Aachen.  The towns of Eschweiler to the northwest, Duren to the
northeast, Rotgen to the southwest and the Schwammenaul Dam to the southeast
form the four corners of the battlefield.

Hope you find this interesting.  The narrative comes from Chapter 3 of
Paschendale with Treebursts, hopefully, prayerfully to be published soon :)

Rob Rush
p.s. I welcome any comments.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:06:59 EST
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST:  POWs of the Japanese

        The following book review by former SECNAV John Lehman appeared in the
11/15/94 Wall Street Journal.

JAPAN'S DARKEST SECRET  by John Lehman

_Prisoners of the Japanese: POWs of World War II in the Pacific_
by Gavin Daws, Morrow, 448 pgs, $25.

        Through much of the postwar period there was a Cambridge University a
legendary rowing coach and man of God called Canon Noel Duckworth.  Those of us
who rowed on his teams were utterly charmed by him but also perplexed by
occasional embarrassing incidents:  Whenever he found himself in the presence
of a Japanese student or visitor, he would immediately turn pale and begin to
shake uncontrollably, abruptly leaving the room.  We knew he had been a POW of
the Japanese, captured as a British army chaplain in the fall of Singapore, but
we always thought this a bit theatrical.
        Having read Gavin Daws _Prisoners of the Japanese, I now understand.
It is difficult to read such a relentlessly horrifying story.  Except for the
Nazi treatment of the Jews, there is no parallel to the organized, systematic,
genocidal cruelty inflicted by the Japanese government on white prisoners of
war in World War II.
        It is a disgrace, really, that because of political priorities this
story has never been systematically recorded or documented, and hence it has
never fully been told to the public.  Partly because it was a political
embarrassment to the British and American armies, and especially to Gen.
Douglas MacArthur and other Allied leaders, there were no official histories
written.  Because it soon became necessary to rebuild Japan as a bulwark
against Asian communism, the story was rapidly shoved into the memory hole.
The U. S. occupation forces made an initial attempt to bring the evildoers to
justice, and 920 were tried and hanged as war criminals.  (The Japanese then
quietly built a monument to the most prominent of these, including Gen. Tojo.)
But thousands more were quickly rehabilitated and some went on to power in
government; at least one became prime minister.  Some of the most evil
scientists from the army's Unit 731, which killed thousands of POWs in gruesome
medical experiments, were not prosecuted at all in exchange for their sharing
their findings on germ warfare.
        Nearly all of the 140,000 Western POWs were American, British,
Australian, New Zealand and Dutch soldiers and sailors captured in the first
months of the war when Guam, Wake Island, Hong Kong, Malaya, Singapore,
Indonesia, Burma and the Philippines fell to Japan.  Some 180,000 Asian
soldiers were captured as well, but nearly all were released in a few months.
Almost without exception, those who remained in the camps were white.
        "In the eyes of the Japanese," Mr. Daws writes, "white men who allowed
themselves to be captured in war were despicable.  They deserved to die."  They
viewed Caucasians as racially inferior, incomprehensible - and, indeed, barely
human.  "They beat them until they fell, then beat them for falling, beat them
until they bled, the beat them for bleeding.  The denied them medical
treatment.  They starved them....They sacrificed prisoners in medical
experiments.  They watched them die by the tens of thousands....If the war had
lasted another year, there would not have been a POW left alive..."
        Mr. Daws, an experienced scholar and a prolific writer, spent decades
doing archival research and interviewing survivors.  He wisely allows the
survivors' oral histories to carry the narrative, while documenting their
accounts and providing background and commentary.  The latter, written in a
matey Australian style, evinces a strong prejudice against all the officers who
were POWs, but especially English ones.
        There is new material in the chapter on the Bataan Death March.  Gen
MacArthur had 78,000 men in uniform.  Only 54,000 survived the death march, and
of these 9,000 more died within six weeks.  A favorite activity of the Japanese
guards was chopping off POW heads with their samurai swords as "often as not
just for Japanese warrior sport, and as often as not incompetently, needing one
or more hacking blows to finish the bloody work."  One Japanese officer, a
graduate of Amherst College and Fort Benning, personally supervised the
butchering of 300 POWs in cold blood, using only swords and bayonets.
        As the tide of war turned, the government of Japan decided to move all
the POWs back to Japan.  They were crammed into cargo ships with no
ventilation, water or sanitation.  Thousands died en route, and thousands more
drowned as U. S. submarines sank ships that Japan refused to mark as prison vessels.
        About as many Allied boys died in Japanese prison camps as died in the
entire Vietnam War, but there is no memorial to them.  Mr. Daws notes with
bitter irony the refusal of the U. S. or Japanese government to provide any
compensation to these victims of Japanese policy while the U. S. government
provided $20,000 to each Japanese interned in the U. S.\
        The persistence of the survivors of Japanese genocide in bringing their
vile suffering to public knowledge is an acute embarrassment to the curators of
the Smithsonian Institution and other purveyors of the politically correct myth
that Japan was a victim of American racism and imperialism.  I wonder when Mr.
Daw's excellent book will make its way to the Smithsonian's gift shops.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:37:52 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: War Crimes Japan/Germany

I am remined by this debate of what Eli Wesial (sp?) who said "don't
compare, all suffering is intolerable" when question by a Palestenian youth
-drew

Drew Philip Halevy      | Faber est suae quisque fortunae-
Grad Student            |
Department of History   | Each man is the smith of his own fortune-
University of Arkansas  |
[email-masked]   | -Appius Claudius Caecus

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:37:10 EST
From:    Cathleen Lewis <[email-masked]>
Subject: BIBL: Tuskegee Airmen

Someone requested information on the Tuskegee Airmen. I apologize for
not noting who it was, but I thought that some others in the list might
find this useful. If my e-mail skills are up to it, what I have attached
is a copy of a bibiliogrphay on the Tuskegee program. This is not quite
upt to date, but it will certainly get any researcher started. If anyone
has any questions, please contact me directly. Thank you.

    Barbour, George Edward. "Early Black Flyers of Western Pensylvania,
1906-1945. " Western Pensylvania Historical Magazine 69 (April 1986):
95-119.  Billington, Monroe. "Freedon to Serve: The President's
Committee on Equality o f Treatment and Opportunity in the Armed Forces
1949-1950." Journal of Negro H istory (October 1966).      Buchanan, A.
Russell. Black Americans in World War II. Santa Barbara, Calif.: Clio
Books, 1977.  Cripps, Thomas and David Culbert. "The Negro Soldier
(1944): Propaganda in Bal ck and White." American Quarterly (Winter
1979).   Dalfiume, Richard M. Desegregation of the U.S. Armed Forces:
Fighting on Two F ronts, 1939-1953. Columbia: University of Missouri
Press, 1969.  Dalfiume, Richard. "The Fahy Commision and Desegregation
of the Armed Forces."
  The Historian, November 1968.   Davis, Benjamin O., Jr. Benjamin O.
Davis, Jr., American: An Autobiography. W ashington, D.C.: Smithsonian
Institution Press, 1991. (own copy)    Foner, Jack D. Blacks and the
Military in American History: A New Perspective.
  New York: Praeger, 1974.   Francis, Charles E. The Tuskegee Airmen: The
Story of the Negro in the U.S. Ai r Force. Boston: Bruce Humphries,
1956.    Gropman, Alan L. "Benjamin O. Davis, Jr.: History on Two Fronts."
In Makers o f the United States Air Force. Edited by John L. Frisbee.
Washington, D.C.: Of fice of Air Force History, 1987.      Gropman, Alan L.
The Air Force Integrates, 1945-1964. Washington, D.C.: Offic e of Air
Force History, 1978.    Hardesty, Von, and Dominisk Pisano. Black Wings:
the American Black in Aviati on. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian
Institution Press, 1983.     Hasdorff, James C. "Reflections on the
Tuskegee Experiement: An Interview withBrig. Gen. Noel F. Parrish, USAF
(Ret.)." Aerospace Historian 24 (Fall, Septemb er 1977): 173-80.
    Jakeman, Robert J. Divided Skies: Establishing Segregated Flight
Training at T uskegee, Alabama, 1934-1942. Tuscaloosa, Ala.: University
of Alabama, 1992.  Lee, Ulysses G. The Employment of Negro Troops. U.S.
Army in World War II. W ashington. D.C.: Department of the Army, Office
of the Chief of Military History , 1966.    MacGregor, Morris J., Jr.
Integration of the Armed Forces, 1940-1965. Defense Sudies Series.
Washington, D.c.: Center of Military History, United States Arm y, 1981.
    Osur, Alan M. Blacks in the Army Air Force during World War II: the
Problem of Race Relations. Washington, D.C.: Office of Air Force
History, 1977.     Patton, Gerald W. War and Race: The Black Officer in the
American Military, 19 15-1941. Westport, Conn.: Greenwood Press, 1981.
    Peck, James L. H. "When Do We Fly?" Crisis 47 (December 1940): 375-78,
388.     Powell, William J. Black Wings. Los Angeles, Calif.: Ivan Deach,
Jr., 1934.    Powell, William J. "Negroes in the Air." American Mercury 41
(May 1937): 127.   Rose, Robert A. Lonely Eagles. Los Angeles: Tuskegee
Airmen Inc., Western Reg ion.     Sandler, Stanley. Segregated Skies:
All-Black Combat Sqaudrons of World War II . Washington, D.C.:
Smithsonian, 1992.      Schuyler, George S. "Negroes in the Air." American
Mercury 39 (December 1936): xxviii-xxx.     Scott, William Randolph.
"Colonel John C. Robinson: The Condor of Ethiopia." Pan-African Journal
5 (Spring 1972): 59-69.      Sitkoff, harvard. "American Blacks in World War
II: Rethinking the Militancy-W atershed Hyphothesis." In The Home Front
and War in the Twentieth Century: TheAmerican Experience in Comparative
Perspective, edited by james Titus. Proceedi ngs of the Tenth Military
History Symposium, October 20-22, 1982. Washington, D .C.: United States
Air Force Academy and Office of Air Force History, 1984.   Sitkoff,
Howard. "Racial Militancy and Interracial Violence in the Second Worl d
War." Journal of American History (December 1971).    "Success Story:
Blacks in Uniform." Wilson Quarterly 8 (Spring 1984): 80-81.
    Washington, George L. The History of Military and Civilian Pilot
Training of N egroes at Tuskegee: 1939-1945. N.p., 1972.   Wynne, Neil.
"The Impact of the Second World War on the American Negro." Jou rnal of
Comtemporary History (July 1971).

Cathleen S. Lewis ([email-masked], 202/357-2828)
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:06:10 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Copyrighting of articles

I was afraid this would come up sooner or later. Are articles that appear
in a newsgroup and/or a mailing list, copyright free? I just got a message
from someone who has accessed my "50 YA" archives. He is developing a
commercial CD of WW II materials. He wants to take the stuff off my
archives and put them on his CD (and sell of course). He wants to know
what is copyrighted. My archives contains articles either posted in the WW
II newsgroup or off the WW II mailing list. Can these articles be
published and charged for? I am also rather concerned about my "50 YA"
column. I had never thought about copyrighting, but I don't want someone
taking my articles and selling them and making money off them.

Help - I need some guidance on this. I need to respond to this fellow.

Also, please tell me if I'm breaking the law myself. I'm a little bit
concerned about the sources I use for my column. I try to be very carefull
that I don't copy my material verbatim. I always try to reword and rewrite
and since I pull in from several sources I figure I should be okay. Does
a copyright infringement have to be an exact duplication of the original
or is it more loose than that.

Any help and advice in this area would be greatly appreciated. I have no
experience in this area whatsoever.

I realize that this is probably off-topic so if you want to reply to me
via private email that is fine.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:13:05 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PTO vs ETO

Steve, well put.

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:18:19 -0600
From:    Michael Huelshoff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: BATTLE OF THE HUERTGEN FOREST

To Rob Rush,
Please keep your material on the Battle of Hurtgen Forest coming. Most
interesting.......................................................MGH

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:24:27 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Copyrighting of articles

Everything that is "published" (electronic medium, as noted in most
copyrights, constitutes "publication) is implicitly copyrighted.  Of
course, the question is still in the lay-mans grey area as to whether
network type of postings that do NOT specify a copyright (which is no
longer required by the Berne Convention) is in fact copyrighted.

This is and always has been the type of question for a copyright lawyer.

HOWEVER, any legitimate author/publisher who wants to be absolutely sure
about all legalities know that no matter what, they should (if not must)
contact the author of every piece or document before they publish it for
sale.

I wouldn't do it.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:22:47 -0600
From:    JEFF ROBERTS <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PTO vs ETO

A few further comments on the PTO-ETO debate:

I see absolutely no reason to regard the Imperial Japanese in any better light
than the Nazis.  Reading _Unit 731_ removed any lingering doubts.

However, there is also no doubt that the Nazis are *perceived* as even more
despicable -- witness the choice of villains in the first and third Indiana
Jones movies.  People readily associate the Swastika with evil, but do not
harbor similar feelings toward the Rising Sun.

As to why this is so, part of the reason may be attributed to cover-ups, or
simple ignorance, but there is another factor worth mentioning.  When Hitler
targeted the Jews, he targeted a global community.  In the aftermath of war,
that community has seen to it that the Holocaust will be remembered throughout
the world.  There is simply no counterpart in the Pacific War.

Finally, regarding Dower's _War Without Mercy_ -- Yes, our propaganda was
racist, and so was theirs.  But this is hardly surprising.  Has there ever been
a war in which we fought against people we *liked*?  Does any country ever
describe their enemies as "just like us, only a little different?"  I don't
think so.  Indeed, it may well be *required* to belittle one's enemies, for it
must be easier to kill "monkeymen" than humans.  Americans used various choice
words for describing the Germans as something less than human beings -- the
fact that the Japanese were of a different race merely made the slandering
easier in the context of the times.  Overall I find Dower's work interesting,
but guilty of "generational chauvanism" (i.e. judging individuals of the past
by the standards of the present) and ultimately unconvincing in its argument
that racism was what made the Pacific war so hellish.

Jeff Roberts

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:22:33 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ETO vs PTO

One reason we regard the Nazis as worse than the Japanese may be that
the Japanese are a culture we can define as alien. The Germans are
in our own cultural tradition, so their evil is not just dismissable
as the product of something different, it is, in a sense, betrayal.
Anyone who likes Bach or Mozart, Heine or Mann, and sees them as part
of "Western Civilization" has to come to grips with the fact that Hitler        and Heydrich were a different branch of the same tree.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:38:29 EST
From:    "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: Byrd is down, here's a mirror.

Hi, we're having a tiny little problem right now, but here's an alternate
site which mirrors byrd.  I'm not sure how to access it directly, I
asked veronica to show me "marshall" and this popped up (along with
702 other hits.)

Path=1/../.pub/academic/history/marshall/military/pictures.new

Host=president.oit.unc.edu

I'll let everyone know when we get back on the line, and would appreciate
it if anyone who knows of other mirrors (with access routes if poss.)
would send me a note direct to the address in my sig.

Thanks,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Mod.: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:47:37 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

William, I believe that it was more than just the machinations of Churchill
that made for Europe first.  In fact, it was pre-war policy, and was never
really questioned during the war, except by a Navy that just wanted more to
prosecute its own war.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 20:23:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: POW

>From the Air Force News Agency

131.  Luck was on this POW's side
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
131.  Luck was on this POW's side
by A1C Deana Silvey
     Dates didn't mean anything.  Why should they?  If you knew what
day it was you'd only be counting them, making passing the time just
that much harder.
     That's why former prisoner of war Richard Beadle can't quite
remember the exact date he was captured by the Germans near the
France-German border, or the day he escaped from the POW camp.  He
does remember it was the middle of August 1944 when he was captured
and escaped in March or April of 1945.
     "We were in reserve behind the infantry who were fighting.  A
captain asked for three men who would try to rescue an injured
lieutenant in the combat zone.  I knew I'd be risking my life, but I
volunteered," said Beadle, then a brave 21-year-old Army soldier.
     The three unarmed men ran right into a German machine gun nest.
One of the men screamed, "Let's run for it."
     "I knew if we ran, we'd be dead.  So I said, 'Let's surrender,
it's our only chance,'" Beadle said.
     So they did.
     The German soldiers put their three captives in a squad car, where
they met more POWs.  They were then transported on a train and made
at least two more stops at temporary camps.  Beadle ended up on the
other side of Berlin at Camp 3-C, a camp segregated by rank.  He was
an NCO.
     NCOs didn't have to work, only privates.  "I don't know if the
work or the waiting would have been harder," Beadle said.  Instead of
working the NCOs sat around all day, usually playing cards.  The cards
were their only way of battling boredom.
     "We received cigarettes once a month and we used them as money.
We learned later how to trade cigarettes with the Russians (prisoners)
for a loaf of bread.  Someone decided to get smart one time and not
pitch the cigarettes over the fence after receiving the bread.  From
then on it took a half hour to make the trade, battling back and forth
over who would throw their item first."
     The freezing weather hit the men the hardest, according to Beadle.
     "It was a cold winter.  There were 30 men to a one-room shack.
There were shelves on the walls with straw on them for beds.  The only
heat we had was a pot-belly stove burning coal where we would all
gather around."
     The men weren't offered the luxury of showers.  "Showers, you
must be kidding.  We got a shower when it rained."
     Food was also scarce.  "For breakfast we received one slice of
black bread, one cup of imitation coffee made from acorns, and a bowl
of barley soup.  I think the bread had sawdust in it."
     For lunch they received a piece of horse meat that was sometimes
blue.  But that didn't bother Beadle or the others.  "When you're
hungry, everything tastes good," he explained.  And for supper, another
bowl of soup.  "It was a low-calories diet, I would say.  I joined
the service at 160 pounds (72.5 kg) and came home at 90 pounds.
(40.8 kg)"
     "We were lucky, though, we were treated fairly.  We had
Switzerland Red Cross members who came around the camps making sure
we were treated according to the Geneva Conference agreement, and we
were."
     In spring 1945 the Germans tried to move the POWs to keep ahead
of the advancing Russian Army.  But the move came too late.  The
Russians reached the marching column and attacked, then stopped when
they saw who they were shooting.  But many of the prisoners were
killed or wounded, while some of the POWs were able to escape.
Beadle was one of them.
     He traveled by train, wagon and foot.  He also recalls traveling
with a man from Arkansas, who had had half of his tongue shot off,
and another man who later died from shrapnel wounds in his back.  "I
tried to nurse them the best I could.  But they didn't travel for
long, and it ended up being just me," he said.
     Beadle was picked up by the Red Army in what today is part of
Poland and placed in a detention camp for refugees.  But the urge to
be free was strong, so he didn't say at the camp long.
     "One night one the guards, who were all older feeble men because
they needed all of the young men to fight, got drunk.  I hit him over
the head with a piece of wood and jumped out the window and ran for
it," he said.
     Luckily, while on the run again Beadle ran into an American Army
Air Forces sergeant, in the area after crashing in his B-17.
     "He took me to a hotel where they were staying.  I remember one
of the men, Lieutenant Ball, from Dallas (Texas).  The crews, who I
think were from the Eighth Air Force, were staying in the hotel after
their B-17 had crash-landed after bombing the oil fields in
Yugoslavia," he said.
     "Some Russians tracked me down to the hotel and came to get me.
But one the captains pulled out a 45 (caliber = 11.43 mm pistol) and
the Russians left."
     Beadle lived it up for the next three days.  "They fed me banquet
style," he said.  The party ended when Beadle and the crew left for an
Army Air Forces base in southern Russia, Poltava AB.  From there he
traveled by American C-47 to Teheran, Iran, and Casablanca, Algeria.
His mode of travel was to introduce himself to aircrews who would then
offer him a ride.  He hit Newfoundland and New York before catching a
train home to New Orleans (Louisiana).
     He didn't even think to call his family.  He just wanted to get
home.  And he finally made it to Reserve, Louisiana, his home.  "I
probably should have called.  My parents had no idea whether I was
dead or alive.  But they were happy to see me," he said.
     After a few days, he was on the road again, this time to
Shreveport (Louisiana) to see the woman he met and fell in love with
while he was in basic training.  He later married her, and went to
trade school under the G.I. Bill.
     "I loved the Army and I would do it all again," Beadle said.
"Being a POW was hard, but I probably wouldn't have survived throughout
the war if I wasn't captured.  I was one of the lucky ones."
     (Silvey is assigned to 2nd Bombardment Wing public affairs at
Barksdale AFB, Louisiana)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Nov 1994 20:39:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 17 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 4 B-24s bomb Suribachi Airfield on Paramushiru
Island; 2 fighters intercept and damage 1 B-24 which force-lands on
Kamchatka, USSR.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 3 B-24s bomb Kowloon Docks,
Hong Kong; 15 B-25s, in flights of 2 or 3 each, attack gun positions, storage
areas, and village and town areas N of Chuchou, W of Nanyo, and at Chefang
and Nanyo and S of Hpalen, Burma; also a bridge at Tingka is knocked out;
100+ P-40s and P-51s hit targets of opportunity throughout SE and SW China,
concentrating on the Mangshih and Changsha areas.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 33 P-47s hit troop and
vehicle concentrations and supply areas at Manlu, Loi-Lum, Nawngmoloi, and
Kyaukme; 10 P-47s support ground forces in the N Burma railroad corridor near
Meza; 16 others sweep the rail line from Hsipaw to Sedaw hitting rolling
stock, gun positions and other targets of opportunity while 3 bomb the Meza
railroad station; 16 others strafe airfields at Nawnghkio, Anisakan, and
Onbauk; 9 B-25s bomb bridges at Lashio, knocking out a bypass bridge and
damaging others; several machinegun positions are silenced in the bridge
area; transports continue to operate on large scale, flying 266 sorties to
forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 30 bombers of the 9th Bombardment
Division hit Haguenau, France; weather prevents 100+ bombers from attacking
targets; fighters escort bombers, fly patrol and armed reconnaissance over
a wide area of W Germany, and support the US 104th and 4th Infantry Divisions
and 2d Armored Division, E of Aachen and near Hurtgen, Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 630+ B-17s and B-24s attack
Blechhammer S oil refinery, Germany; Floridsdorf oil refinery in Vienna,
Austria; the industrial area in and near Vienna; marshalling yards at
Maribor, Yugoslavia; Gyor, Hungary; Graz, Salzburg, Villach, and the town of
Sankt Johann in Tirol, Austria; plus several scattered targets of
opportunity.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): For the first time in several
months the Twelfth's medium bombers attack targets in Yugoslavia, hitting
bridges along the Brod-Zagreb-Maribor railroad; in Italy, medium bombers also
hit rail bridges and viaducts in the NE, concentrating on the Brenner Pass
where ground haze and smoke screen at the Avisio viaduct hamper the attacks;
fighter-bombers of the XXII Tactical Air Command cut rail lines, hit larger
concentrations of railroad cars, and blast several ammunition and fuel dumps
N of the battleline below Bologna; fighter-bombers closely supporting ground
forces also hit guns and other military targets in battle area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): In the Bonin Islands, 15 B-24s, flying a
shipping strike out of Saipan Island, attack vessels SW of Muko Jima Island
and the attack harbor and town of Okimura.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s bomb Legaspi Airfield on Luzon Island; on Mindanao Island,
B-24s bomb Sasa and Likanan Airfields; other B-24s and B-25s fly heckling
missions over the C Philippine Islands, Mindanao Island, and NE Celebes
Island  B-25s continue to support ground forces on Mapia Island. HQ 317th
Troop Carrier Group moves from Hollandia, New Guinea to Leyte Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

17/0139Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:20:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Naval Chronology by Morri

niraj Agarwalla asks:
  > Does anyone know where I can get the History of the Navy in World War II
  > by Morrison (sic).

Pay no attention to the first-edition buffs, niraj.  The entire 15-volume
series by Samuel Eliot Morison, =History of United States Naval Operations
in World War II=, has been reprinted in hardcover and offered for sale in
whole or by individual volumes by the National Historical Society.  Printing
was in cooperation with Little, Brown and Co.  Price is $22.50 per volume.
A few months ago they were advertising a free 15-day look at Volume 1.
  The address in the brochure is: The National Historical Society, P.O. Box
975, Hicksville, NY 11802.  No phone, fax or e-mail stated.
  Despite lacking later-revealed intell data, this series is still the
outstanding history of USN operations.  Note that it is not an official
history like the Army "green books", nor does it include non-operational
administrative history.  But Morison was a superb writer.
  BTW, Capt. Roger Pineau, (USNR, Tet.) who was Morison's translator of
Japanese and the ghost-writer of many chapters, passed away a few months
ago.  He was a good friend.
  Edward Miller     Stamford, CT   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:20:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: PTO vs. ETO

William Lippert states:

  > Indeed, it was only by the clever machinations of Churchill that Europe
  > First was the policy, rather than Pacific first, for which most
  > Americans desired.

  The record does not support your contention.
  The Germany-first policy was first proposed at a high level in November
1940 by Admiral Harold E. Stark, the Chief of Naval Operations.  Stark's
"Plan Dog" memo to the president ("Dog" for choice "D" among four options),
endorsed by General Marshall, argued that unless Germany were beaten the war
would be lost but that defeat of Japan could be delayed if necessary.  Stark
was no Anglophile; in fact, navy plans had always envisioned fighting Japan
(Plan Orange).
  Meetings with British staff officers to convert Plan Dog into Plan Rainbow
Five commenced at the "ABC" conferences in Washington, January-March 1941.
Oddly, the British argued for sending the US Pacific Fleet to Singapore
where it would likely have been mauled worse than at Pearl Harbor, a concept
rather inconsistent with Germany-first and which the US wisely rejected.
They completed Rainbow Five in May 1941.  FDR and Churchill did not meet for
their first wartime conference, at Argentia, Newfoundland until August 1941.
  Churchill unquestionably favored Germany-first.  However, there is no
evidence that the US adopted it because of his "machinations."  American
strategists correctly saw it to be in the best interest of the U.S.
  Please cite the reasons why you think most Americans desired a Pacific-
first strategy.  Were there public opinion polls?
  Edward S. Miller   Author, "War Plan Orange"   [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Nov 1994 to 16 Nov 1994
*************************************************