Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 Jan 1995 to 26 Jan 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:02:46 -0500

There are 75 messages totalling 2527 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. A-bomb, Should it have be... (3)
  2. Auschwitz (2)
  3. POWs (13)
  4. Fortune Magazine (3)
  5. Capt. Beach and other writers. (4)
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-JAN-1945
  7. WEAP: Battleships (5)
  8. What IF: Panama Canal? (5)
  9. Flying Tigers (2)
 10. TRIV Hitler's Henchmen Program (2)
 11. Japanese POW's--BBC Broadcast
 12. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 27Jan45
 13. CAPT. BEACH AND OTHER
 14. AAF Officers' uniform question (2)
 15. GEN: REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (2)
 16. Farewell BBs (4)
 17. WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor
 18. Soviet brutality in '45 Germany
 19. Faulty Torpedoes
 20. BOOK:Charles Whiting (4)
 21. RAF markings (4)
 22. Panama Canal
 23. Bibliography of first-person WW2 narratives (2)
 24. TRIV: Pacific Armor
 25. Bibliography of first-person narratives (2)
 26. stuff in boxes
 27. [INF] USAAF 27 JAN 45
 28. Inside The Third Reic
 29. Rocket Fighter
 30. Arizona at Pearl Harbor (2)
 31. P-51s to Russia?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 00:50:53 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: A-bomb, Should it have be...

After the mass cliff-side suicides of Okinawan (Japanese) civilians during
the taking of Oki, were numbers of possible suicides in Japan ever proposed
for the homeland invasion?  A blockade scenarion is often suggested in lieu
of the bomb, how many civilians would have starved to death rather than give
up?  Are we the only country brow beating itself over decisions made 50 years
ago?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Jan 1995 23:59:42 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Auschwitz

David...
*Of course*, you're absolutely correct.
The ENTIRE Second World War was staged. It's all a propaganda plot by
the Anglo-Americans. A gross cinematic canard of the Nazis.
Terrible injustice.  [sigh].

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 00:17:33 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Mark...
        You mention "multiple reports" of liberated Allied POWs taking
up arms against the Russsians ....
        Extraorinary remark.
        I have never heard or read so much as a single whisper of such an
event. Highly improbable, if only because such action would have been
tantamount to suicide.  Allied POWs released from Nazi camps were too bloody glad to
be liberated to think of anything but getting home in 1945.
Sounds awfully comic strip... :-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fortune Magazine

I have an unconfirmed story that Fortune magazine published a survey
in 1945 or 46 stat

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:15:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fortune Magazine

OK, now that I have solved my technical problems............

I have an unconfirmed report that Fortune magazine published a survey in
late 1945 or early 1946 indicating that 22% of Americans thought the war
in the Pacific had ended too soon, i.e., before we could really blast the
Japanese.  This is kinda hard to believe.  Does anyone have any knowledge
of said survey.  (I'm starting to sound like one of OJs lawyers!)  If such
a survey was conducted, does anyone have any details on the questions,
who was surveyed, etc.

TIA.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:16:11 -0500
From:    Dan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Capt. Beach and other writers.

To the list of riveting WWII books written by participants, add:

Don Lopez, *Into the Teeth of the Tiger*, Bantam War Books 1986.

A "paperback original," so it might be hard to find in libraries.

Don served in China in the 23rd Fighter Group Flying Tigers and is that
rare combat veteran who writes a good yarn.

Also worth reading, if not quite in the same class, is this more recent
book by a veteran of the original Flying Tigers:

James Howard, *Roar of the Tiger*, Orion 1991.

                 - Dan    <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:25:23 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-JAN-1945

On 27-JAN-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 7th Armoured Division is
slowly clearing Bois de St Vith. In the 3rd Army sector, the XII and XX
Corps continue to advance towards the Siegfried Line. The 87th Division
occupies several towns in the area south of St Vith. The 90th Division
continues to clear the west bank of the Our River. Units of the 5th
Division take Weiler, Wahlausen, Consthum and Holzthum. Elements of the
80th Division capture Bockholz, Neidhausen, Dorscheid and Marburg. The 94th
Division drives to the edge of Sinz but is forced back by heavy casualties.
In the French 1st Army sector, the French clear the Elsenheim road and
forest and head for Jebsheim. The 3rd Division takes Holtzwihr and
Wickerswihr.

Eastern Front - White Russian troops overrun the Masurian Lake region of
East Prussia. In Poland, the encirclement of Thorn and Posen is completed.
The 1st Ukraine Front makes progress in clearing the industrial region of
Upper Silesia. In central Czechoslovakia, the 4th Rumanian Army captures
Dobsina.

Philippines - The 6th Army receives major reinforcements as the 1st Cavalry
Division and 32nd Division arrive at Lingayen Gulf. The 40th Division
secures the Manila RR and Route 3 from Bamban south to Mantitang. The 37th
Division quickly takes Culayo and Dau and pushes on to Angeles, which is
undefended. In the I Corps area, elements of the 25th Division reach
Asingan without difficulty. Other units continue fighting in a costly
battle at San Manuel.

Burma - The blockade of China is broken as the Chinese 38th Division links
up with the Yunnan Force coming out of China on the Burma Road, opening a
land route to China. Pauk falls to the Indian 7th Division.

China - Chiang Kai-shek forbids the Americans to negotiate with the
Communists without his express authority.

Pacific - the Joint Expeditionary Force for the Iwo Jima operation departs
from Hawaii for the Marianas.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                Cary, North Carolina              [email-masked]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:10:19 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, Should it have be...

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 00:50:53 -0500 <[email-masked]> said:
>After the mass cliff-side suicides of Okinawan (Japanese) civilians during
>the taking of Oki, were numbers of possible suicides in Japan ever proposed
>for the homeland invasion?  A blockade scenarion is often suggested in lieu
>of the bomb, how many civilians would have starved to death rather than give
>up?  Are we the only country brow beating itself over decisions made 50 years
>ago?

1)  The country was already under blockade.

2)  No.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:13:58 -0500
From:    Thoams Wildenberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Edward S. Miller wrote:

> Jorge Merino notes that the final two Iowa classs BBs, Illinois and
> Kentucky, were laid down in December 1944 and January 1945.
>
> The accepted US war plan then in effect projected defeat of Japan within one
> year of Germany's surrender, i.e., V-J Day was expected in spring 1946 at
> the latest.
>
> It still took 3 years to build a BB.  I wonder who the navy expected they
> would fight.
>
Hi Ed, couldn't resist responding to your question ...

Contracts for (7) BBs Hull No's 65-71 were awarded 9 Sep 40.  Funds for
same were authorized under 70% Expansion Building Program:Two Ocean Navy,
part II.  Illinois,BB-65  and Kentucky,BB-66 were included in the above.

Construction of (5) BBs, Hull No.s 67-71 were suspended 20 May 42 by
SecNav directive because of steel shortages.  Contracts canelled 21 Jul 43.
SOURCE: Dr. Stephen S. Roberts, U.S. Navy Building Programs During WW II,
Warship Int'l, No.3, 1981. (took me a while to find were a filed it!!!)

FYI, the engines built for Kentucky did not go to waste as they were used
for the propulsion system of the SACRAMENTO AOE-1.

Tom W.

> Ed Miller  [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:24:11 -0500
From:    Thoams Wildenberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What IF: Panama Canal?

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> Robert J. Granvin;
>
> When you wrote today:  "... Part of the long term plan included
> the capture or destruction of the Panama Canal -- it takes a
> LONG time to send ships around the horn. ..."
>
> Do you have any more information on this?  This is very interesting
> to me.
>
> The Japanese at times seemed to work miracles with their seamanship.
> How did they plan to attack the Panama Canal?  Aircraft carrier
> attack?  Could the Japanese have sailed a force though and shot up
> one of the Locks?  Maybe sacrifice a ship by scuttling it in a
> narrow channel?
>
FYI, the National Air and Space Museum is presently restoring an Aichi
M6A1 float plane which was designed to bomb the Canal.  Planse of the
type were to be carried aboard two submarines built specifically for
this purpose.

Tom Wildenberg

> What were the Panama canal defenses at the time?
>
> Hmmmmmm? Please tell me more if you have it.
>
>
> Robert Hohlt, Jr.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:27:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Flying Tigers

According to the Associated Press, 68 Republicans and 13 Democrats
in the US Congress are demanding that the head of the Smitsonian be
fired over the Enola Gay display.  One of them is Senator Ted
Stevens, Republican of Alaska, the chairman of the Senate Rules
Committee, who flew with the Flying Tigers in China.

Does anyone have any additional information on Stevens career with
the AVG?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:32:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Hello, Chip!

> This is getting off the subject that started this dicussion, but
didn't the
> Russians "liberate" some POW camps that held US, British and other western
> allies personnel?

    Yes. Many POW's were interned or held until the Russians
themselves were able to lay hands on their own soldiers held by the
Allies after liberation. Consider particularly the Russian POW's
turned over to the Russians in the Drau River Valley of Upper Austria
in 1945-1946. A tragedy.

 I read or heard alot of them never came back after being
> liberated by the Russians?  Is this true?

    See above.

>
> I've also read accounts of the Soviets brutality to the civilian population ie
> women?  Has anyone else heard this?

    Absolutely. To give you an idea, according to a former
chancellor, I forget his name at the moment, claimed that 90,000
women alone in Berlin were raped. In the whole of the Russian invasion
of Eastern Germany,  two million more were raped. It is a horrible
scene to contemplate.

       I understand that this was mostly conducted
> by units from the far east portion of the Soviet Union.  I also read some where
> that the Soviets executed any Soviet Soldier that surrendered, escaped and the
> returned to Soviet lines?  Any comments?

    Yes, see above. An interesting documentary based on the book by
Nicolas Bethell called "The Last Secret" details this grisly episode
briefly described above relating the forcible repatriation of
2,000,000 Russians held by the West who were turned over to Stalin.
All or most were executed shortly afterwards or shipped off to
Siberia.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:35:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Hello, David!

Would like to take issue with you on this statement.

> Sorry, don't know where they came from, but I suspect that their
> ethnicity had little to do with it.
>

    By and large, the preponderance of this activity were carried out
by vengeance-seeking Russians whose families had suffered a similar
fate under the Germans. It was the Russians who came behind the front-
line soldiers who committed most of these atrocities. However,
Russians from the Asian steppe were most apt to commit this sort of
atrocity.

>
>   I also read some where > that the Soviets executed any
> Soviet Soldier that surrendered, escaped and the > returned to Soviet
> lines?
>
> Some were executed outright by Kommisars (sp?), and many others were thrown
> into concentration camps. A neighbor of mine back in Toronto had been a
> Soviet soldier captured by the Germans, and he came to Canada rather than
> face the consequences in the Soviet Union.

    He was lucky. I am surprised that the Russians didn't insist on
his being returned.

    Thanks, David.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:53:45 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Hitler's Henchmen Program

>For Bill Huber -
>        Re:  Glaring Error.  Several references to Scheer showed a
>photgraph of someone else, ya?
>        Regards,
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
> |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
> |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
> |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
> -----------------------------------------------------------

Hey--I missed this---was my picture absent???    TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:12:28 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese POW's--BBC Broadcast

Hello,

Last night on the BBC shortwave an ex Japanese POW was interviewed. He and
another British POW were suing the Japanese Government for Compensation due
to their internment. They had a team of 8 Japanese lawyers who were bringing
a class action suit against the government. I believe the amount was
16,000 pounds per person. They were doing this on behalf of all US, British,
Australian, and New Zealand POW's. I was wondering if anyone on the list
had any more information about this.

The British gentleman said that they were fed a tea cup full of rice for
breakfast, lunch, and dinner. On special occassions they were given a
yellow (something). It turned yellow because of the pickling process.

The lawyers for the POW's said that Japan had to face up to it's past, and
compensation for some of these gentleman was a way of showing retribution.
Apparently this POW had received some type on nominal monetary award in
1950. Does anyone know of this settlement? How much? Wouldn't accepting
such award make it so that they couldn't receive any in the future?

Thanks,

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:06:33 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 27Jan45

January 27, 1045
D-Day +235

-Reports from G-2 indicate that at least one of two panzer armies were
 being sent to the eastern front. The Germans were trying to contain
 the western front with both the Siegfried Line and their minimum forces
 while at the same time attempting to stabilize the eastern front.

-26th Inf Div captures Hosingen, 6th Armored Div captures high ground
 east of the Our River, 17th Airborne moves to III Corps zone, 17th
 Airborne captures Dorscheid.

-XII Corps, 5th Inf Div captures Consthum and Holzthum; 80th Inf Div
 captures Bockholz.

-XIX TAC grounded due to weather.

-Hospitals to get special rations: turkey, eggs, and oranges as they become
 available.

***

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:29:41 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What IF: Panama Canal?

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion
List writes:
> Robert J. Granvin;
>
> When you wrote today:  "... Part of the long term plan included
> the capture or destruction of the Panama Canal -- it takes a
> LONG time to send ships around the horn. ..."
>
> Do you have any more information on this?  This is very interesting
> to me.
>
> The Japanese at times seemed to work miracles with their seamanship.
> How did they plan to attack the Panama Canal?  Aircraft carrier
> attack?  Could the Japanese have sailed a force though and shot up
> one of the Locks?  Maybe sacrifice a ship by scuttling it in a
> narrow channel?
>
> What were the Panama canal defenses at the time?
>
> Hmmmmmm? Please tell me more if you have it.

Unfortunately, I'm relying on information I've heard from others and seen
in passing in other materials.  Nothing specific do I have at hand.  :-(

In any case, there are certain areas of the canal that are fairly narrow
and susceptible to attack.  The sub-launched float planes were also
intended to be used against a canal target.  I also saw written somewhere
that a long-range goal was quite simply to occupy the area and control it.
The argument was that it was felt it might be possible to turn the Mexicans
and sympathetic South American regimes to their aid in the desire to acquire
and control the canal.  In the end, the main goal was not to acquire it for
their own use, but to deny it's use to the U.S. and allies.

As far a bottling up the canal, sinking a ship in a narrow straight or in
a lock can do as much to bottle up shipping as anything.  It may only close
the canal for a month or three, but even that could be disastrous to a
coastal defense during a critical time.

Of course, this is from something I read once a long time ago and have no
idea where it was.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:33:01 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion
List writes:
> Dear Ed,
>
> With your corporate experience, is this question rhetorical?
> Who needs an enemy when you have a funded program?
>
> If I can dig out my copy of Vincent Davis, I'll see what he has to say.

Otherwise, the answer is simple:  The Soviet Union.

They were allies, but were never friends.  Soviets treated Allied aid with
suspicion, convoys were held in harbor to prevent contact to certain extents
and the only reason the Soviet Union became an ally during WWII was because
Hitler used their negotiated non-agression pact to mount a sneak attack of
his own.  Had that not happened, the Soviet Union likely would have stayed
out of the conflict (until it became lucrative to join it, as in the last-
second declaration of war against Japan).

With friends like that on your side, there's not much argument against
building battleships.

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:04:49 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

>
>
>  I also read some where > that the Soviets executed any
>Soviet Soldier that surrendered, escaped and the > returned to Soviet
>lines?
>
>Some were executed outright by Kommisars (sp?), and many others were thrown
>into concentration camps. A neighbor of mine back in Toronto had been a
>Soviet soldier captured by the Germans, and he came to Canada rather than
>face the consequences in the Soviet Union.
>

        I am talking off the top of my head but I remember reading an
article that talked about some of the codes of conduct for Soviet
servicemen.  Under no circumstances ever were any soviet soldiers, sailors,
or airmen ever allowed to surrender.  Servicemen were expected to stand up
to the enemy until they were victorious or dead (which ever comes first).
If a unit was overrun, they were expected to act as partisans until they
were able to relink up with other soviet units.
        If a serviceman is declared missing, the families of these
serviceman recive NO benefits until it can be shown that they died in
combat.  This is not limited to the Stalin-era military, but was in effect
during the Afganistan war.  That is one of the reasons why Red Army and Air
Force units were very aggressive in  attempting to return the remains of
men from run over units and downed airmen.  The soldiers attempting to
return the remains did this so that the dead mens families back home could
recieve death benefits and hopefully someone would do the same for them if
they were killed on the battlefield.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:38:24 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: CAPT. BEACH AND OTHER

I don't know of any specialized list such as you requested. I think that you
have to review bibliographies of World War II, for instance, to select such
first-person personal experiences. If you write the Marine Corps Historical
Center, Bldg 58, Washington Navy Yard, Washington, DC 20374 for its relatively
up-to-date WWII bibliography, you will be sent a copy. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:32:36 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: AAF Officers' uniform question

Dear all ;

I just received my new service visor cap from Springfield, VA and it is a
NICE replica of the WWII AAF service cap!!

It matches my class-A woolwinter service jacket in BOTH colour AND in type
of worsted wool fabric, as well as the actual texture of my officer's jacket.

Is this the way they were originally?

I hope so.
It sure is nice.
Built supurbly and even has a back strap and commemorative markings inside for
the years, 1941-1945 -- 1991-1995.

Any feedback on this nice service cap?

BTW, I looked at the originals, with magnification aid, in Jon McGuire's new
book, "Silver Wings, Pinks & Greens."
I matched the nicer crushers, even to the grommett air holes and thickness &
potential bendability of the russett brown visor.

Feedback, anyone?

BTW guys, Maj. Oris Johnson appears on the dust jacket cover and in a full
page illustration in the aforementioned book.
He lives here in Baton Rouge and I recently met him and had a lovely time in
his home.
He and his lovely wife are just SUPER!

Any history on Gen Johnson, besides flying as a pilot with the 422nd  NFS?

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:58:56 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

  The Dutch Ambassador here in Norway has asked me to help him get
some WWII information.  When cleaning out the attic of his family home
in Holland, he found a US Presidential commendation for his
grandfather, which he had never heard about.  None of the living
members of his family had ever heard about it either.
  The commendation says, "The President of the United States of
America has directed me to express to ARNOLDUS ROMBARTUS van HATTUM
the gratitude and appreciation of the American people for gallant
service in assiting the escape of Allied soldiers from the enemy.  It
was signed Dwight D. Eisenhower, General of the Army, Commanding
General United States Force European Theater."
  It has an official seal marked HQ EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
U.S.A but no date.
  Could anyone throw any light on this?  What operations could van
HATTUM have been involved in?  How could he have come to get such
an award?  Was it part of a more general program?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:43:11 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

There was also a British battleship sunk by collision in the 1880's (I
think).  I don't recall all the details, but I believe it was in the
British Mediterranean Fleet.  The admiral in command ordered a series
of turns which everyone else realized would lead to a collision between
his flagship and another battleship.  Obedience was more prized than
common sense, apparently, and no one took any action.  The two ships
collided and the flagship sank (along with the C in C, who caused
the whole thing).  I believe the sunken flagship was the Victoria and
the other battleship was the Camperdown.  It was quite a scandal at the
time and started the Royal Navy thinking about whether initiative and
common sense wasn't better than blind obedience.

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:10:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 >  The Dutch Ambassador here in Norway has asked me to help him get
 >some WWII information.  When cleaning out the attic of his family home
 >in Holland, he found a US Presidential commendation for his
 >grandfather, which he had never heard about.  None of the living
 >members of his family had ever heard about it either.
 >  The commendation says, "The President of the United States of
 >America has directed me to express to ARNOLDUS ROMBARTUS van HATTUM
 >the gratitude and appreciation of the American people for gallant
 >service in assiting the escape of Allied soldiers from the enemy.  It
 >was signed Dwight D. Eisenhower, General of the Army, Commanding
 >General United States Force European Theater."
 >  It has an official seal marked HQ EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
 >U.S.A but no date.
 >  Could anyone throw any light on this?  What operations could van
 >HATTUM have been involved in?  How could he have come to get such
 >an award?  Was it part of a more general program?
 >  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

Perhaps helping Allied airmen escape?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:10:58 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Capt. Beach and other writers.

        Give me a few days and I can post a bibliography of first-person,
lower-echelon accounts that should keep you busy into the foreseeable future.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:17:35 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

At 10:04 AM 1/26/95, Ron Babuka wrote:
[..]
>
>        I am talking off the top of my head but I remember reading an
>article that talked about some of the codes of conduct for Soviet
>servicemen.  Under no circumstances ever were any soviet soldiers, sailors,
>or airmen ever allowed to surrender.  Servicemen were expected to stand up
>to the enemy until they were victorious or dead (which ever comes first).
>If a unit was overrun, they were expected to act as partisans until they
>were able to relink up with other soviet units.
>        If a serviceman is declared missing, the families of these
>serviceman recive NO benefits until it can be shown that they died in
>combat.  This is not limited to the Stalin-era military, but was in effect
>during the Afganistan war.  That is one of the reasons why Red Army and Air
>Force units were very aggressive in  attempting to return the remains of
>men from run over units and downed airmen.  The soldiers attempting to
>return the remains did this so that the dead mens families back home could
>recieve death benefits and hopefully someone would do the same for them if
>they were killed on the battlefield.

That runs counter to an account I read where a liberated American officer
wanted to get the identity of a dead Russian soldier.  A Soviet officer
wondered why, and the American said so his next of kin can be informed he
is dead.  The Soviet officer said, "They'll know when he doesn't come
back".

I'm trying to recall where I read this, but related to the thread of German
and Russian treatment of POWs, not long ago I did read an account where
Americans freed by the Russians, did disguise a German officer, who had
treated them well, as an American to keep him from the Russians after they
saw what happened to captured German soldiers.  I can probably find it if
anybody cares.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:15:41 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Hitler's Henchmen Program

> >        Re:  Glaring Error.  Several references to Scheer showed a
> >photgraph of someone else, ya?
> >        Regards,
> > |    Skip Wilder              |                           |

> Hey--I missed this---was my picture absent???    TAS

I suspect maybe so, but since I never got a copy of your photo landing
on the D-DAY + 50yrs beaches I can't say for sure :-)

Ciao, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:16:13 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor

>> What if Nagumo had conducted a follow up attack to destroy the oil farm,
> > harbor facilities, etc.
>
>Terry replies:
>  > Thank God he didn't.... it would have presented a serious problem for
>  > later  supply of warships...  would have been forced to return to the US
>  > for  refuelling... etc.
>
>  The problem would have been temporary.  During the war the USN mastered
>the art of quickly erecting oil tanks at newly captured bases which had far
>less infrastructure and labor than Pearl.  The Seabees could typically
>complete a tank farm and big fuel dock within 3 months of a landng.
>  Furthermore, excavation of the the huge 6-million barrel Red Hill
>underground oil storage chambers at Pearl Harbor commenced in December 1940
>and was well along at the time of the attack.  Although the first oil wasn't
>stored there until September 1942, it seems plausible that work would have
>been accelerated if necessary.

I concur, Actually the refueling at sea was already available, and
sufficient tankers could have been made available to keep the ships
available, mobile. It might have precluded long range operations out of
Pearl Harbor for a while, but ships based out of Australia would still have
been able to stop/stall the Coral Sea advance. It just adds a handicap to
the US, which may have had a 3-6 month delay in the progress of the war.
Since the Japanese moved their carriers to SE Asia and the Indian Ocean,
the effect is transitory at best.
        If the Japanese gamble just a little bit more in Dec '41 by
ensuring that Pearl Harbor is incapacitated, have some Submarine mines
dropped on and off to keep the level of consernation up and use the
carriers to support / cover a landing on Midway [there were BBs and CAs
available, along with enough shipping to put a Bn or two ashore], they get
a forward point to launch long range strikes at Pearl Harbor, support a
small AVP at French Frigate Shoals, and maintain reconnaissance over much
of the Central Pacific. This gives them a heads up and a direction when the
US Carriers move, making response more efficient. The problem is the *very*
extended line they have to support, fortunately for them US Subs are not as
effective as they will be.
        The attack on the Panama Cannal was a good idea, but hardley
executable; as it was they had to go for a one time "special operation"
that didn't offer much chance of success. A better option might have been
to use subs to refuel MAVIS's at sea and make use of their considerable
range and the surprise factor-it's still a long shot, but a better one. If
it could have been accomplished soon after the Pearl Harbor attack, it
would have further exacerbated things for the US.
        Trying to do all this simultaneously would have strained Japanese
capability quite a bit, but when you get a brief period in which to strike
a lethal blow on the sleeping dragon, you better go all out! They
hesitated, and it cost them!

Jim O'Neil      They don't pay me enough to fight fair!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:18:09 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

        And then there's the large statue of a victorious Russian soldier, PPSh
raised in triumph, which the Soviets insisted the locals erect and maintain in
Vienna, Austria.  The Viennese, who remember a somewhat different version of
their "liberation" by the Red Army, call it sarcastically "the monument to the
Unknown Rapist."

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:34:42 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What IF: Panama Canal?

        Can anyone provide details of the Aichi M6A1 floatplane??

        Thanks

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:45:51 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine

Jack...
        'Should be simple enough to check.
        Most libraries have sets of the Readers Guide To Periodicals.
        'Be easy to look up reference to such an article.
        Next step ten, ask for the particular back issue of FORTUNE in the
        stacks.

Regards -- Sidney.

PS: Personally, I don't find it so hard to believe that "22% of Americans"
felt that way at the time -- considering the loathing for Japanese
atrocities.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:50:36 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Terry...
        You mention mass rape of german women by Soviet soldiers as a
"horrible scene to contemplate".
Agreed.
The slaughter of over 20 million Soviets by the invading German army
is an even more horrible scene to contemplate.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:02:22 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Auschwitz

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> David...
> *Of course*, you're absolutely correct.
> The ENTIRE Second World War was staged. It's all a propaganda plot by
> the Anglo-Americans. A gross cinematic canard of the Nazis.
> Terrible injustice.  [sigh].

Now Sidney, lets not be _too_ vituperative now. I said that "the Soviet
film of their liberation of Auschwitz was staged," and that the other
famous film of the meeting of the two armies was staged too. I _did not_
say or imply that these events did not take place, simply that the films
are not credible as primary sources. I _certainly_ did not suggest that
the Anglo-Americans staged anything (although it was the CBC who faked the
film of Hitler dancing a jig wasn't it?), and I resent the implication
that since I don't believe everything I see or read I am a de facto Nazi
sympathizer. Grow up.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:14:36 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

>     By and large, the preponderance of this activity were carried out
> by vengeance-seeking Russians whose families had suffered a similar
> fate under the Germans. It was the Russians who came behind the front-
> line soldiers who committed most of these atrocities. However,
> Russians from the Asian steppe were most apt to commit this sort of
> atrocity.

Thanks for the clarification Terry, I was just speculating. Do you know
why those from the Asian steppe were more likely to rape than other
ethnic groups? Just wondering.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:26:45 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

John - how does that run counter to what I read?  It seems to me that the
Soviet officer was saying that the Russian soldier was persona non grata so
to say and that nothing is done for the family if he is just missing or
none to be dead in action.  Now the section that I wrote about going to
extremes to retrieve bodies is a facet unique to Afganistan (maybe that
wasn't clear) due to the numbers of unaccounted men being drastically
smaller and the ability to get in and out to retrieve being easier than
during WWII.

>>        I am talking off the top of my head but I remember reading an
>>article that talked about some of the codes of conduct for Soviet
>>servicemen.  Under no circumstances ever were any soviet soldiers, sailors,
>>or airmen ever allowed to surrender.  Servicemen were expected to stand up
>>to the enemy until they were victorious or dead (which ever comes first).
>>If a unit was overrun, they were expected to act as partisans until they
>>were able to relink up with other soviet units.
>>        If a serviceman is declared missing, the families of these
>>serviceman recive NO benefits until it can be shown that they died in
>>combat.  This is not limited to the Stalin-era military, but was in effect
>>during the Afganistan war.  That is one of the reasons why Red Army and Air
>>Force units were very aggressive in  attempting to return the remains of
>>men from run over units and downed airmen.  The soldiers attempting to
>>return the remains did this so that the dead mens families back home could
>>recieve death benefits and hopefully someone would do the same for them if
>>they were killed on the battlefield.
>
>That runs counter to an account I read where a liberated American officer
>wanted to get the identity of a dead Russian soldier.  A Soviet officer
>wondered why, and the American said so his next of kin can be informed he
>is dead.  The Soviet officer said, "They'll know when he doesn't come
>back".
>
>I'm trying to recall where I read this, but related to the thread of German
>and Russian treatment of POWs, not long ago I did read an account where
>Americans freed by the Russians, did disguise a German officer, who had
>treated them well, as an American to keep him from the Russians after they
>saw what happened to captured German soldiers.  I can probably find it if
>anybody cares.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:31:43 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

>From the information put up on the list, the battleships were all meanty
to fight the Japanese, but because of steel shortages and emphasis to
shift buildingto carriers/destroyers/subs they were slowed in construction
so were not finished as quickly as they would have been if they had stayed
on schedule (also the navy will almost always build as many ships as they
can if you throw money at them)(and i don't blame them)

John E. Kolalr
sorry...
John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:42:46 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What IF: Panama Canal?

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
>
>Robert J. Granvin;
>
>When you wrote today:  "... Part of the long term plan included
>the capture or destruction of the Panama Canal -- it takes a
>LONG time to send ships around the horn. ..."
>
>Do you have any more information on this?  This is very interesting
>to me.
>
>The Japanese at times seemed to work miracles with their seamanship.
>How did they plan to attack the Panama Canal?  Aircraft carrier
>attack?  Could the Japanese have sailed a force though and shot up
>one of the Locks?  Maybe sacrifice a ship by scuttling it in a
>narrow channel?
>
>What were the Panama canal defenses at the time?
>
>Hmmmmmm? Please tell me more if you have it.
>
>
>Robert Hohlt, Jr.
>
To Bob and Bob:

My dad was assigned to a Coast Artillery Battalion in the Panama
Canal Zone right after Pearl Harbor.

I can only tell you what he told me.  If the Japanese had come
in force to attack the Canal, they would have had a walk over.
The only big guns were the old Coastal defense guns, some of
which did not work.  There was limitied AA defenses and not many
troops.  Fortunately for him, and ultimately for me, the
Japanese did not come.

My dad indicated the Japanese could have done any of the
aformentioned deeds without much opposition, i.e. sink a ship in
the Canal, bomb the locks, etc.

Hope this helps.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:51:42 -0500
From:    "Peter I. Hidas" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Soviet brutality in '45 Germany

The Hungarian experience was similar. The frontline soldiers, the first
wave of soldiers behaved well: they lit my Christmas tree in 1944 in Budapest.
The soldiers who followed indulged for a few days in raping and looting. The
Hungarians nicknamed the Russian tommyguns davai-guitars. After a few
days things settled down and some soldiers were even court martialled for
looting and raping after the deadline passed.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:02:38 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Faulty Torpedoes

AT LAST!!!

Wartburg's internet connection hasn't been working properly for nearly
two weeks.  I had just responded to Doug's query on sources about the
faulty Mark 14 torpedo when something went wrong.  I have been able to
receive messages, but nothing was going out, including my "recent" post,
which I wrote 13 days ago.  (Hmm.  I wrote it on a Friday the 13th and
it takes 13 days to get out of our Vax system.  Anyone superstitious?)

Some additional comments on the bib. of submarine personal narratives
that I posted:

I had two names wrong.  It should be Richard O'Kane, not Kane.  It should be
George Grider, not Sam Grider, as author of _War Fish_.

Schratz's book has an excellent index with references to torpedoes.
Mendenhall's Submarine Diary_ is not indexed.  Doug, if you are interested
I will respond privately with page numbers when I noted torpedo problems in
my reading notes from the book.  The same goes for O'Kane's _Wahoo_.

Forest Sterling's _Wake of the Wahoo_records an incident in which the XO of the WAHOO asked him to type up
a letter to BuOrd complaining about the torpedo problem (p. 229f).

One more personal narrative I have read might be of some use:  I. J. Galantin,
_Take Her Deep!:  A Submarine Against Japan in World War II (Chapel Hill:
Algonquin Books, 1987).

Doug, I also have addresses for 2 people who might be able to help you.  I
know a fellow who was aboard the BARB on her last war patrol in the summer
of 1945 and he has given me addresses for Eugene Fluckey and a torpedoman who
had long service in subs.  Let me know if they are of any interest.

Sorry for the lengthy delay in responding to your query.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 19:01:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

Robert Granvin replies to my query about who the final two Iowa-class BBs
were supposed to fight.  They were laid down near the end of WWII and would
have been completed about 1948.

  > ...the answer is simple:  The Soviet Union.  They were allies, but were
  > never friends.... With friends like that on your side, there's not much
  > argument against building battleships.

Interesting thought, Robert.  But what would BBs do against the USSR which
had no deep water fleet?  Anyway, the time frame doesn't fit.  In 1944-45
there wasn't much thought in the U.S. about fighting them, whereas by the
time the Kentucky was cancelled in 1947 the Cold War was getting underway.
The navy showed greater wisdom in scrapping the half-built dinosaurs.

Ed Miller   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:32:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BOOK:Charles Whiting

Hello, Rob!

I tend to agree with your assessment of Whiting. I have always viewed
him, much in the same vain as Edwin P. Hoyt, as someone out to make a
buck and keep his name before the public. His reliance upon
sensationalism and simplistic conclusions may say more for his
readership than anything. At least, from his perspective, it sells
books.

Thanks, again, and all the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:40:28 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: RAF markings

I'm looking at the January picture of a Hurricane Mk. II in the 1995 Ghost
calendar and I am slightly curious as to the national markings.  Why are
the wing markings a blue/red circle and the fuselage markings
yellow/blue/white/red?
Kinda odd that I haven't ever given it much thought - maybe I am kinda
bored here at work and staring off at my walls a bit too much.

Opps just thought of another question that has been nagging at me for a
bit, so if I may indulge a bit further - why is it that aircraft designers
and manufacturers continued to used fabric covered control surfaces when
the rest of the aircraft was of metal alloy construction?  I can recall
that when manufactures started to introduced all-metal control surfaces,
the handling would improve during stressful manuevers and dives.  TIA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:50:22 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Panama Canal

I am afraid that I have missed something in the conversation on the bombing
of the Panama Canal. Can someone fill me in?

Thanks,
Nechama

***************************************************************************

Nechama Cox                                         ()        ()
                                                    ||        ||
[email-masked]                                ||        ||
                                                  <~~~~>    <~~~~>
27 Heathway Court                                  {@@}      {@@}
Finchley Road and West Heath Road                  {**}      {**}
Hampstead, London                                  {@@}      {@@}
NW3 7TS                                            ----      ----
                                                  /    \    /    \
(081) 458-6510                                   |______|  |______|

**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:54:58 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

Yeah, the admiral in charge ordered both colums of ships to turn
in at each other, I can get definite names and dates in a few days,

John E. Kollar

ps. I think that that is the BB they are talking about in the list,
I dont's think the other qualified as a battleship, but was an
ironclad.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:10:12 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: AAF Officers' uniform question

I am assuming it would just be like the caps today--the color
matches--the material matches most of the time although there may be
some small deviations in the material.  How much did you pay for yours??
TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:15:30 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bibliography of first-person WW2 narratives

        Okay, this is far from exhaustive, maybe even not too extensive, but
here is a list of first-person accounts of WW2 combat at lower echelons that I
have read (at least what I remember):

US/GROUND/PACIFIC

        Robert Leckie, "Helmet For My Pillow" (Marine machinegunner on
                Guadalcanal)
        Richard Tregaskis, "Guadalcanal Diary" (only reporter allowed on
                original Guadalcanal landing force)
        William Manchester, "Goodbye Darkness" (a history of the Pacific
                campaign interwoven with author's own reminiscenses as
                a Marine sergeant on Okinawa)
        "Semper Fi, Mac" (can't recall the author/editor at the moment-- will
                provide it later-- but he interviewed Marines from virtually
                every campaign and specialty and let them tell their stories)

US/AIR/PACIFIC

        Robert Scott, "God Is My Co-Pilot" (transport pilot on "the Hump"
                eventually flies P-40 with Flying Tigers)
        Daniel Lopez, "In The Teeth Of The Tiger" (another P-40 pilot with
                Chennault in China)
        Gregory Boyington, "Baa Baa Black Sheep"  (famous fighter jock first
                with Flying Tigers, later as commander of Marine F4U squadron
                in Solomons)
        Ted Lawson, "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" (flew one of the B-25's in
                Doolittle's raid)

US/NAVY/PACIFIC

        James Fahey, "Pacific War Diary" (illegally kept diary of seaman
                aboard light cruiser in Solomons, Phillipines, etc)
        Douglas Leach, "Now Hear This" (author was officer on board a
                destroyer escort, not much real fighting but fascinating
                look at service life)
        Richard Kane, "Wahoo" (exec officer on one of the most famous US
                submarines-- those who saw/read Wouk's "Winds of War" series
                will recognize many incidents of Pug Henry's son Byron and
                his fictional sub)

US/GROUND/EUROPE

        Audie Murphy, "To Hell and Back" (first-class memoir of America's
                most decorated soldier of the war, who rose from private to
                lieutenant while fighting in Sicily, southern Italy, Anzio,
                the "Anvil" invasion, and Colmar pocket)
        Charles MacDonald, "Company Commander" (Siegfried Line, the Bulge,
                fighting into Germany)
        Donald Burgett, "Curahee" (paratrooper's account of D-Day and its
                immediate aftermath-- this book may have been re-titled since
                I read it)
        William Darby, "We Led The Way" (commander of the US Rangers gives
                account of training in Scotland, action in "Torch" landings,
                Tunisia, Sicily, Italy, Anzio-- though he was commander he
                was also present on the ground in many of these engagements)
        "Hit Hard" (again, forgot the author's name but I can look it up-- he
                was a white company commander in the black 763rd Tank
                Battalion, mainly during Battle of Bulge)

US/AIR/EUROPE

        Robert Johnson, "Thunderbolt" (P-47 pilot in Zemke's group was
                second highest-scoring US ace in Europe)

        Well, this is taking longer than I thought...  I think I have to break
it off for the moment with the end of the US stuff.  Will post British, German,
Russian, Japanese, French, etc tomorrow (there are lots from British and German
sources especially)...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:31:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

On 25 Jan 95, Charles Mattocks wrote:

> I've also read accounts of the Soviets brutality to the civilian population ie
> women?  Has anyone else heard this?  I understand that this was mostly conduct
> by units from the far east portion of the Soviet Union.               ome wher

Charles,
     On the question of brutality toward German civilians, try Martin K.
Sorge _The Other Price of Hitler's War: German Military and Civilian
Losses Resulting From World War II_.

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:33:06 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

> Robert Granvin replies to my query about who the final two Iowa-class BBs
> were supposed to fight.  They were laid down near the end of WWII and would
> have been completed about 1948.
>
>   > ...the answer is simple:  The Soviet Union.  They were allies, but were
>   > never friends.... With friends like that on your side, there's not much
>   > argument against building battleships.
>
> Interesting thought, Robert.  But what would BBs do against the USSR which
> had no deep water fleet?  Anyway, the time frame doesn't fit.  In 1944-45
> there wasn't much thought in the U.S. about fighting them, whereas by the
> time the Kentucky was cancelled in 1947 the Cold War was getting underway.
> The navy showed greater wisdom in scrapping the half-built dinosaurs.

It goes back to secured budgets.  :-)

The Soviet Navy may not have been a "major" threat, but it was a threat.
The Soviets also had a huge amount of resources and the ability to make
something of it.

Whether a credible threat existed at the time isn't always the important
question -- whether one would exist in a short period of time was a better
one.  The age of and belief in huge naval fleets was quite strong and the
fleets proved their worth.  No sense in sitting back and waiting for
something to react to.  All that's needed is a perceived, believed or
expected threat.

Otherwise, the ships still held great value as shore bombardment.  They
were also incredible psychological weapons.  Then with the coming of a
nuclear capable fleet, the battleship is still an excellent defensive
weapon.  Keep those carriers safe from cruisers and smaller ships, and you
can bring your armament closer to the target.

As far as no belief in fighting the Russians, there were many people who
at least unofficially believed it was inevitable -- the Soviets were not
pro-Ally at the beginning the war and joined the war to revenge Hitler's
invasion.  Had it not been for that act, the Soviets might have stayed
out or joined later -- on either side.

I keep hearing the same things over and over, at least from people at
the home front.  People may not have been _expecting_ a conflict with
the Soviet Union, but it was still there in the back of the minds of a
lot of people.

Also, by '47, the world had changed dramatically from the one known in
'45.  As times change, so do priorities.  The expectations at the time
when the order to build the two ships was given had clearly changed by
the time they were halted.  But that doesn't necessarily change the
reasons why they were wanted in the first place -- only that situations
had changed.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:00:51 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Pacific Armor

Mr Glantz's excellent two-part study is titled AUGUST STORM; I haven't
had a chance to doublecheck the volume dealing with tactical operations
for details on armour clashes, but it's likely that they're covered.

Several of Steve Zaloga's books on Soviet armour refer to very one-sided
actions between Soviet & Japanese tanks in 1945-- I mean, they had
Stalin III's (not just II's but honest-to-Iosif III's, fer cryin'...) in
that campaign.  My fervert imagination runs rampant with the image of a
Chi-Ha taking a hit from a 122mm.....

Peter Tsouras' book THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR (great photos!!) reports that
one of the tank corps committed to "August Storm" was equipped with
Lend-Lease M-4 Shermans (has a photo!).  Other photos show various Soviet
tanks in use.

Along this line, one independent regiment and several cavalry divisions
of the Mongolian Peoples Army participated in the 1945 Manchurian
campaign.  Since the TOE of your typical Mongolian cavalry division
included a tank battalion (okay, an armoured battalion-- some of 'em were
still using BA10 armoured cars), it's likely THEY saw some tank-to-tank
(or whatever) action also.  [NB the Mongolian Peoples Army fielded ten
cavalry divisions, at least on paper-- "obscure armies our speciality" Greg]

A source that may chronicle some of these tank battles in Manchuria & the
Pacific is:

TANK WAR, 1939-1945

     by Janusz Piekalkiewicz.  Blandford/Sterling, 1986
     [OCLC # 1215313   ;  no we DON'T own it yet!]

And in case anyone's wondering about Mongolia's neighbor at the time, I
find no evidence that any troops of the Army of the Republic of
Tannu-Tuva participated in the Soviet August 1945 campaign.  'Course, I
find no evidence that Tannu-Tuva had ANY armour, its forces composed of
infantry and cavalry, so it's kinda a moot point. On the other hand, Tuvan
horses DID participate in the Soviet campaigns in western Russia; just
horses--no reference to Tuvan riders.

Anyone know how many troops Tannu-Tuva fielded?  I do.....

(anyone care???)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                           (Kyzyl Khoto branch)
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:20:00 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF markings

> Opps just thought of another question that has been nagging at me for a
> bit, so if I may indulge a bit further - why is it that aircraft designers
> and manufacturers continued to used fabric covered control surfaces when
> the rest of the aircraft was of metal alloy construction?  I can recall
> that when manufactures started to introduced all-metal control surfaces,
> the handling would improve during stressful manuevers and dives.  TIA

One of the many reasons was repair.  Control surfaces tended to get shot
up, but chunks of fuselage missing are easier to deal with than chunks of
ailerons.  :-)

Fabric permitted shells, bullets and debris to pass straight through and
could be patched literally in minutes.  Metal damage required fabrication
and reconstruction a lot of times.

Also saved weight.  I believe the paint applied to a B-25 amounted to some
300 pounds.  Not quite as much savings in the control surface area, but it
all adds up.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:47:42 -0500
From:    Dan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Flying Tigers

He wasn't in the AVG. Probably with the 14th Air Force sometime after
July 1942. (We can be charitable and assume that Senator Stevens was not
like Congressman Stringfellow, whose war career was largely a product of
a lively imagination.)

                 - Dan    <[email-masked]>

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, mc killop wrote:
> According to the Associated Press, 68 Republicans and 13 Democrats
> in the US Congress are demanding that the head of the Smitsonian be
> fired over the Enola Gay display.  One of them is Senator Ted
> Stevens, Republican of Alaska, the chairman of the Senate Rules
> Committee, who flew with the Flying Tigers in China.
>
> Does anyone have any additional information on Stevens career with
> the AVG?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
> |  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
> |  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
> |  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:39:28 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

For anyone concerned, STRASBOURG escaped unscathed from the terrible
barrage of British shellfire at Mers-el-Kebir in July 1940, only to be
scuttled by her crew to avoid German seizure at Toulon two years later.
Her sistership, DUNKERQUE, was not so lucky, being badly damaged during
the shelling; an optimistic radio message reporting her damage as not as
severe as first thought was intercepted by the British a few days later,
resulting in a Swordfish torpedo strike that missed DUNKERQUE but, alas,
detonated the depth charges of an auxiliary patrol vessel moored
alongside her (TERRE DE NEUVE, if memory serves), with  subsequent
explosion that killed another couple hundred sailors and sent DUNKERQUE
to the harbour bottom.  She was refloated, patched, moved to Toulon,
repaired, and ultimately scuttled as was STRASBOURG.

The British shellfire DID sink one French battleship at Mer-el-Kebir, but
that was BRETAGNE (a "Provence" class BB), capsized with a magazine hit that
killed nearly her entire crew.  One of her sisters, PROVENCE, was also
very badly damaged by the British shellfire at the time.

Yes, I'm using "shellfire" VERY deliberately; what happened at
Mers-el-Kebir was not a naval battle, but an execution by artilleryfire
(my emotional 2 centimes)

Above compiled from

THE FRENCH NAVY IN WORLD WAR TWO (Auphan & Mordal, Naval Institute edition)
THE FLEET THAT FACED BOTH WAYS (Heckstall-Smith)
THE FLEET WITHOUT A FRIEND (Vader)
THE DEADLY STROKE (Tute)
FRENCH WARSHIPS OF WORLD WAR TWO (Mordal)

and a few other titles that ALSO weren't listed in the bibliography for
Koburger's THE CYRANO FLEET.......

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995, Roger Coon wrote:

> Weren't the Strassbourgs lost to British gunfire?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:00:33 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BOOK:Charles Whiting

Hello, Steve!
I'm surprised you haven't run across any books by Charles Whiting. He is a
very prolific writer who has been publishing since the mid-1960's.  He is
British-born, although I think he now lives in the US.  His subject is
the Western European part of WWII.  His books strike me as popular rather
than scholarly. Reliable as to facts, he is prone to hasty judgments.
Jim Curry
[email-masked]

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen!
> I recently bought from a 2ndhand bookshop a book I once started to
> read a few years ago (borrowed from a library), but
> never finished, namely "Siegfried - The Nazis' Last Stand" by
> Charles Whiting I believe.
>
> I have never heard of said author and just wondered whether any
> on the list would care to comment on the author, the book, or both...
>
> steve baldwin
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:00:20 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

"The *Other* price of Hitler's War --Death of German Troops and Civilians"
? !

One could suggest several other prices of Hitler's War.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:11:26 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Capt. Beach and other writers.

You wrote:

>
>>Is there a bibliography available which lists books by participants in
the
>>war.  Not the leaders and theoreticians, but those with lower echelon
>>experience.  Writers like Capt. Beach, Eugene Sledge, and Bill Mauldin
(Ie.
>>Participants who could write well enough to keep a sixteen year-old up
late
>>into morning) I'd appreciate a copy.
>
>Add Charles McDonald; COMPANY COMMANDER & TO THE SOUND OF TRUMPETS or
>something close to that...There are more too, but that's all I can
think of
>right now.
>
>Jim O'Neil      They don't pay me enough to fight fair!
>
>
These books fit the description.  I know they kept me reading as a kid:

        Samurai;  Saburu Sakai
        God is My Co-Pilot;  Robert L. Scott
        Clear the Decks;  Adm. Flannery
        Nanette; Edwards Park (didn't read it as a kid, but it fits the
bill)
        Commando; Otto Skorzeny
        (Stuka Pilot?) unsure of the title; Ernst Rudel

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:14:01 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF markings

>I'm looking at the January picture of a Hurricane Mk. II in the 1995 Ghost
>calendar and I am slightly curious as to the national markings.  Why are
>the wing markings a blue/red circle and the fuselage markings
>yellow/blue/white/red?

>(snip) if I may indulge a bit further - why is it that aircraft designers
>and manufacturers continued to used fabric covered control surfaces when
>the rest of the aircraft was of metal alloy construction?  I can recall
>that when manufactures started to introduced all-metal control surfaces,
>the handling would improve during stressful manuevers and dives.  TIA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ron Babuka
>Cornell University
>CIT - Information Resources
>Ithaca, New York 14850
>(607) 254-6492

>From WWI, the RFC and later the RAF used concentric rings of blue, white
and red as a national insignia.  Prior to WWII, the white was deleted from
the upper wing insignia as an aid to camoflage.  The fuselage insignia,
which had yellow/blue/white/red rings of equal width, was altered soon
after the war started, reducing the width of the white and yellow rings
for the same reason.  In January 1945, a narrow white ring was re-instated
on the upper wing insignia, but was later dropped.

In the Pacific theater, RAF aircraft often carried a national insignia
devoid of the red entirely to avoid confusion with the Japanese insignia.
The insignia consisted of only a dark blue disk with a medium blue center.
The red disc was removed from the center of US insignia for the same
reason in May 1942.

BTW, the reason that the white sidebars were added to the US insignia
was that it caused the insignia to fade to a bar or rectangle at
extreme distance, where most other national insignia faded to a circle,
with the colors fading out on all.

With regards to fabic covered control surfaces, as I understand it, they
were lighter than metal covered ones, needed less counterbalancing and
required less control effort. (Emmanuel, et al, please feel feel to correct
me if I'm wrong.)  Jeffery Quill's book "Spitfire Pilot" recounts how
the fabric covering on the underside of the ailerons on early Spitfires
ballooned out, causing it to be less effective.  The cure was to cover
the bottom surface with plywood.

Are you aware that the entire rear fuselage of the Hurricane was of
wood and fabric construction?

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 17:13:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, Should it have be...

On 26 Jan 95, J F Bowman wrote:

> After the mass cliff-side suicides of Okinawan (Japanese) civilians during
> the taking of Oki, were numbers of possible suicides in Japan ever proposed
> for the homeland invasion?  A blockade scenarion is often suggested in lieu
> of the bomb, how many civilians would have starved to death rather than give
> up?  Are we the only country brow beating itself over decisions made 50 years
> ago?

I think you are absolutely correct when you ask if we are the only
country that is brow beating itself over decisions made 50 years ago.
You better believe the Russians, Japanese, and Germans are not even
willing to publicly admit to their crimes let alone apologize.

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:18:42 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bibliography of first-person narratives

        More first-person accounts of WW2 combat:

BRITISH/GROUND

        Roy Farrar, "Winged Dagger" (author was tank commander in "Wavell
                Offensive," on Crete, later joined SAS commandos in Italy
                and France)
        Robert Crisp, "The Gods Were Neutral" (tank commander in Greece)
        Robert Crisp, "Brazen Chariots" ("Crusader" offensive in desert as
                seen from turret of a Stuart M3 "Honey")
        Keith Douglass, "Alamein to Wadi Zem Zem" (officer commanding a
                Crusader tank in N. Africa from tail end of Second El Alamein
                through ensuing chase across Libya)

BRITISH/AIR

        J. E. Johnson, "Wing Leader" (UK's top ace of war tells story)
        Bob Braham, "Night Fighter" (UK's top pilot of two-engined fighters,
                from Battle of Britain till captured off Denmark in '44;
                "Bob" was nickname, first name might not be Robert)
        George Buerling, "Malta Spitfire" (top Canadian ace)
        Guy Gibson, "Enemy Coast Ahead" (one of leading British bomber pilots
                from 1940 through famous "Dambusters" raid)

BRITISH/NAVAL

        Ben Bryant, "Submarine Commander" (skipper of one of the most
                successful British subs recalls action in Atlantic,
                North Sea, especially Mediterranean)
        Hal Lawrence, "A Bloody War" (Canadian naval reservist served on
                auxiliary cruiser, two different corvettes, finally on
                Canadian destroyer with Home Fleet off Europe)

GERMAN/GROUND

        Guy Sajer, "The Forgotten Soldier" (half-French, half-German started
                in supply service during Stalingrad winter, joined elite
                Grossdeutschland Division in time for Kursk, withdrawal to
                Dneiper, retreat through Romania, eventually in Courland,
                finally got to surrender in west)
        Wilhelm Pabst, "The Outermost Frontier" (letters home and diary of
                artillery observer with division of Army Group Center, until
                his death in early 1943)
        Wilhelm Pruller, "Diary of a German Soldier" (brief accounts of
                Poland, Balkans, but mainly east front and later service with
                propaganda dept in France-- in my mind too short on front-line
                details and long on politics)
        Erich Koch, "Dance of Death" (Austrian Nazi journalist enlisted in SS,
                was corporal, motorcycle scout during first battle of Kiev,
                sergeant commanding "Marder" SP gun in Caucasus, eventually
                infantry lieutenant up to Budapest and the bitter end)
        Peter Neuman, "The Black March" (original title "SS," author claims to
                have been in SS "Wiking" Division in Russia-- lurid, but I
                sometimes wonder how accurate-- personally, I trust Pabst,
                Koch, and Sajer more)

GERMAN/AIR

        Adolph Galland, "The First and the Last" (middle part strays into
                command stratosphere during career as General of Fighter
                Troops, but over Belgium, France, Britain in '40-'41 he flew
                Me-109 as leading ace, end of the war led Me-262 group)
        Hans Rudel, "Stuka Pilot" (if this is even 60% accurate I'd say it
                qualifies Rudel as probably the top pilot of the war)
        Mano Zeigler, "Rocket Fighter" (mostly test-pilot stuff but still
                an interesting look at the Me-163 from pilot's perspective)

GERMAN/NAVAL

        Herbert Werner, "Iron Coffins" (the classic account of life and death
                in a U-boat by officer who survived action from 1941)
        Peter Cremer, "U-Boat Commander" (another version, much drier, but from
                a famous U-boat skipper)
        Theodor Krancke, "Pocket Battleship" (account of the ADMIRAL SCHEER's
                Atlantic sorties by the ship's commander and its press officer)
        Bernard(?) Rogge, "Under Ten Flags" (story of the famous commerce
                raider ATLANTIS by its captain)

RUSSIAN

        Fred Smerski, "My Life In The Red Army"  (author was Pole drafted into
                Red Army after 1939, was truck driver, footsoldier '41-'42,
                eventually joined Polish Army in west)
        David Dragunsky, "A Soldier's Life" (colonel commanding tank brigade
                gives account of capture of Berlin, Prague; unfortunately only
                isolated anecdotes about earlier battles such as Kursk,
                Sandomierz bridgehead)
        S.A. Kovpak, "Our Partisan Course" (famous partisan leader's
                "politically correct" account of his exploits-- boy, that
                Stalin was a hell of a great guy)

JAPANESE/GROUND

        Richard Gage (translator/editor), "Peace Is Our Duty" (Japanese
                newspaper got veterans and survivors of war to tell their
                horror stories, including many accounts of actions and
                atrocities from six different soldiers who served in China)
        Kazumaro Uno, "Corregidor, Isle of Delusion" (Japanese reporter who
                was first on captured island in May '42-- interesting
                interviews with Japanese soldiers alternates with political
                poppycock)
        Masonobu Tsuji, "Singapore, the Japanese Version" (okay, he was a
                lt-colonel and Chief of Operations for 25th Army, not exactly
                a view from the foxholes, but he was present at the front
                during a couple a three important battalion-level actions)

JAPANESE/AIR

        Saburo Sakai, "Samurai" (top surviving ace of Japanese Navy tells
                his amazing story of piloting a Zero over China, Phillipines,
                Indonesia, New Guinea, Guadalcanal, against air raids of Iwo)
        Mitsuo Fuchida, "Midway, The Battle That Doomed Japan"
                (again, a lot of this is staff-level stuff, but you also get
                Fuchida's view of Pearl Harbor from the cockpit of a B5N
                bomber -- he led first wave and sent the famous
                "Tora, tora, tora" signal-- and also the Indian Ocean raid)

JAPANESE/NAVAL

        Mitsuru Yoshida, "Requiem For Battleship Yamato" (young officer's
                account of the battleship's last mission in April 1945)

FRENCH

        Andre Jubelin, "The Flying Sailor" (Jubelin escaped Indochina in
                small plane, joined DeGuallists, flew Spitfire and later
                Hurricane night fighter in England, later still commanded
                sloop in Mediterranean)
        Antoine de St. Exupery (sp?), "The Flight to Arras" (writer of
                "The Little Prince" among others, also a pilot, waxes
                philosophical about French 1940 defeat while conducting
                a reconnaisance flight)
        Hans Habe, "A Thousand Shall Fall" (German dissident fights in
                division of foreign exiles during 1940 campaign-- my own
                guess is that the author took considerable literary license,
                so a grain or two of salt may come in handy)

ITALIAN

        Roy-Mark Alan (Marco Long?), "White Coats Under Fire" (not really
                a combat memoir, author purports to have been a doctor with
                Italian hospital unit on Russian front, later has affair
                with Himmler's niece!!??)

        BTW, I have read some good first-person accounts from Italian sources,
but unfortunately they've all been in Italian.  There is a series called
"C'ero Anch'io" ("I Was There Too") which is nothing but thick volumes of
soldiers recounting their stories.  Also, Raffaele Doronzo's "Uomini della
Folgore a El Alamein" is great stuff ("Men of the Folgore at El Alamein"--
Doronzo was a member of the elite Folgore parachute division which held out
against incredible odds during the early part of Montgomery's offensive).

YUGOSLAVIA

        Milovan Djilas, "Wartime" (mixes politics, grand strategy, with
                ground view of the partisan struggle by member of Tito's
                leadership and prominent Yugoslav writer)

        Anyway, I don't want to get too into the many memoirs of resistance
fighters in various countries, that's straying too far off the subject...
Ditto for accounts by civilians living in war zones.  Hopefully this far from
exhaustive list will provide some help, although I realize it only scratches
the surface of what's out there, even in English.  Probably there are a few
I've forgotten and a lot more I don't know about, I'll be interested to see if
other listmembers have favorites to add.  If anyone is interested I'll be happy
to post a similar list of the view from the top-- commanders' memoirs and
recollections I've read.

        Otherwise, I'll sign off.  Tomorrow I will definitely post the account
of the August 1945 palace insurrection attempting to prevent the Japanese
surrender which I promised John Ausland ages ago...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:29:45 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: stuff in boxes

        As I've been digging through my collection of books on the Pacific war
in connection with the background to some posts I've promised, I came upon a
pretty large set of Ballantine war books (History of the Violent Century
series, but before that it was all World War II).  Back in my high school days,
my WW2 interest was already pretty strong, and I gobbled up all of these
volumes I could afford.  Anyway, I came across one called "Okinawa, Touchstone
to Victory," by some guy named Benis Frank...so, Ben, I hope it won't make you
feel too old if I mention that I once used you as one of my sources for a paper
back in high school (I won't reveal how long ago that was, but you yourself
probably recall when that particular series first came out...)  Of course, the
name meant nothing to me back then, but it raised a smile when I encountered it
in my closet last night...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:39:08 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

        On the whole thread of Soviet mistreatment of POWs and civilians
in Germany, Cornelius Ryan expresses one of the great ironies of the
situation in his book on the fall of Berlin, _The Last Battle_.  He notes
that the Germans who were actually glad to see the Soviet troops arriving,
namely long-time German communists, were treated equally badly by the
Soviet troops.  A number of them had long waited to be liberated by their
communist brothers, and were quite shocked to find out what being "liberated"
could actually mean....

--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:01:53 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

Tim J. Watts writes:
>
> There was also a British battleship sunk by collision in the 1880's (I
> think).  I don't recall all the details, but I believe it was in the
> British Mediterranean Fleet.  The admiral in command ordered a series
> of turns which everyone else realized would lead to a collision between
> his flagship and another battleship.  Obedience was more prized than
> common sense, apparently, and no one took any action.  The two ships
> collided and the flagship sank (along with the C in C, who caused
> the whole thing).  I believe the sunken flagship was the Victoria and
> the other battleship was the Camperdown.  It was quite a scandal at the
> time and started the Royal Navy thinking about whether initiative and
> common sense wasn't better than blind obedience.
>

        Hello to all!  Just recently subscribed to the list, and thought
I'd introduce myself with a brief follow-up to this post.

        At least one of the battleships was indeed the Camperdown, and
Victoria sounds familiar (would fit with the time frame, wouldn't it?).
I had always been under the impression, however, that it was the
Camperdown which sank (impressions can be misleading, however....).

        I also seem to recall--again subject to the error of passing years
mistaken impressions--that the task force admiral in question was named
Tryon.

        I agree that the "common sense" factor should have prevailed, but
we must recall that battleship design had taken great leaps forward since
the time of the admiral's first sea commands.  He--and many other commanders
of the time--were prone to experimentation, and wanted to test the ships
and crews to the limit.  Sometimes this resulted in improvements, at other
times it resulted in major blunders.

        An interesting aside for any folklore/ghost story buffs out there:
Seems there is an old tale that the admiral's wife was holding a tea party
while her husband was at sea.  She was somewhat befuddled when people came
up to her and asked when the admiral had returned home.  She replied that
he hadn't--he was still away on his maneuvers.  People were adament, however,
that they had just seen him stalk through the house and enter his study.
Upon searching, the admiral was nowhere to be found--not surprising, as he
had already drowned, trapped aboard his ship.  The eerie part is that the
time of the accident coincided almost exactly with his "phantom" appearance
at the tea party......  Take it as you will--maritime history is full of
strange, unexplained folktales such as this, however.

        Cheers!

--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:11:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 27 JAN 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 27 JANUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 29th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VI
Bomber Command, moves from Howard Field, Canal Zone to Rio Hato, Panama with
B-24s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 22 P-40s and P-51s attack
locomotives, trucks, and shipping at Sinsiang, Kihsien, and Nanking, from
Taiyuan to Puchou, and E of Yiyang.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): By this date the complete forward detachments
of the 4 B-29 groups in the Chengtu, China area have evacuated their bases
and moved to more permanent bases in India; this move complies with the Joint
Chiefs of Staff (JCS) directive formulated on 15 Dec 44 and received on 18
Dec; the long-existing understanding that the XX Bomber Command might be
moved from the CBI Theater when more convenient bases are available is thus
put into its initial stage when the XX Bomber Command's Commanding General,
Major General Curtis Emerson LeMay, and the JCS agree that on logistical
grounds XX Bomber Command's operating scheme is basically unsound, a
situation made more apparent when in Nov the Japanese had overrun Luchou and
Yungning and threatened Kunming, China; this development necessitated air
tonnage flown over the Hump being diverted to Chinese ground forces and
the Fourteenth AF, resulting in curtailed supplies to XX Bomber Command and
providing the catalyst for beginning a movement of the command from China.
  Mission 32: 22 of 25 XX Bomber Command B-29s based in India hit the navy
yard and arsenal at Saigon, French Indochina and 1 bombs a bridge at Bangkok,
Thailand without loss; the results are poor.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30+ fighter-bombers
support ground forces at Mansak, Molo Ywama, the area S of Molo, and the
area S of Banwe; 8 others knock out a bypass bridge at Bawgyo; about 100
fighter-bombers hit troop concentrations, supplies, and targets of
opportunity at or near Man Kyan, Kuinkuiloi, Ho-hkun, Pongkalau, Hsenwi,
Kutkai, Hsa-tong, Pinghoi, Ho-mong, Padon, and Kyaung-hen. Transports fly 527
sorties to advanced bases and over forward areas, landing men and landing and
dropping supplies.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 352d Fighter Group and the
486th and 487th Fighter Squadrons move from Bodney, England to Chievres,
Belgium with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather grounds the 9th Bombardment
Division and the XIX Tactical Air Command; the IX and XXIX Tactical Air
Commands fly armed reconnaissance over the battle area and parts of W
Germany, along with alert flights and a leaflet mission. In Belgium, HQ 370th
Fighter Group and the 401st, 402d and 485th Fighter Squadrons move from
Juzaine Airfield, Florennes to Zwartberg with P-38s. The 388th Fighter
Squadron, 365th Fighter Group, moves from Metz, France to Juzaine Airfield,
Florennes, Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): For the sixth consecutive day
bad weather restricts operations to reconnaissance and escort missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather during the
morning causes all medium bombers to abort except for an attack on a bridge at
Bressana Bottarone; XXII Tactical Air Command fighters and fighter-bombers
continue the interdiction of communications with good results against motor
transport, trains, rail lines, bridges, and storage dumps; P-47s of the 57th
Fighter Group destroy an oil plant near Fornovo di Taro. The 414th Night
Fighter Squadron, 62d Fighter Wing, based at Pontedera, Italy sends a
detachment to operate from Florennes, Belgium with Beaufighters attached to
the 422d Night Fighter Squadron.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 19 B-24s, based on Saipan Island, bomb Iwo Jima
Island; 10 B-24s from Saipan and Guam Island follow up with individual
harassment raids against the island during the night of 27/28 Jan. In the
Palau Islands, Caroline Islands, 1 B-24 from Angaur Island bombs Arakabesan
Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 24: 76 B-29s of the 73d Bombardment
Wing (Very Heavy) are dispatched from the Mariana Islands against the
Musashiho and Nakajima aircraft plants near Tokyo; clouds and high winds over
the target area prevent bombing of the primary; 56 B-29s bomb the secondary
target, the Tokyo urban area, and 6 others attack alternates and targets of
opportunity; fighter opposition is the heaviest to date and 5 B-29s are
downed; 4 others ditch or crashland; B-29 gunners claim 60-17-39 Japanese
aircraft, the highest claim to date.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s pound the Canacao seaplane base, Cavite, and Grande Island at the mouth
of Subic Bay while B-25s hit Cabcaben and the airfield at Calingatan. Other
FEAF aircraft continue small-scale strikes against numerous other airfields,
town areas, gun emplacements, harbors, and communications and transportation
targets throughout Luzon. The 19th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 22d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Angaur Island to Samar Island with
B-24s. Units moving to San Jose, Mindoro Island: 320th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), 90th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from Biak Island with B-24s and
388th and 389th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 312th Bombardment Group
Light), from Tanauan, Leyte Island with A-20s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

27/0109Z JAN

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What IF: Panama Canal?

 >        Can anyone provide details of the Aichi M6A1 floatplane??
 >
 >        Thanks
 >
 >        Mike Yaklich

Aichi M6A Seiran (Mountain Haze)

Single-engine submarine-borne attack bomber with twin detachable floats
(M6A1) or single-engine land-based combat trainer with retractable landing
gear (M6A1-K).  All metal construction with fabric-covered control
surfaces.

Crew of 2 in tandem enclosed cockpits.

One Aichi Atsuta 32 12-cylinder inverted-vee liquid-cooled engine rated
at 1,400 ho for take-off.

One flexible rear firing 13mm Type 2 mg and 2 250 kg (551 lb) bombs or one
800 kg (1764 lb) or 850 kg (1874 lb) bomb

Max speed 256 kt at 5200 m (295 mph at 17,060 ft)

28 M6A1s built between Oct 43 and Jul 45 as follows:
   6 M6A1 prototypes
  20 M6A1 production aircraft
   2 M6A1-K prototypes

Plans were made for an attack on the lock gates of the Panama Canal by the
First Submarine Flotilla made up of I-400 and I-401 each carrying 3 M6A1s
and the I-13 and I-14 subs carrying 2 M6A1s.  The target was changed to the
USN anchorage at Ulithi  put to sea in late Jul 45 but the war ended before
they could attack.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 17:43:52 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BOOK:Charles Whiting

At 6:32 AM 1/26/95, Robert T. Moore wrote:
>Hello, Rob!
>
>I tend to agree with your assessment of Whiting. I have always viewed
>him, much in the same vain as Edwin P. Hoyt, as someone out to make a
>buck and keep his name before the public. His reliance upon
>sensationalism and simplistic conclusions may say more for his
>readership than anything. At least, from his perspective, it sells
>books.

Ah, the other author I won't read anymore.  I've decided not to read any
more books by Whiting or Hoyt.  I agree completely with you say Terry.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 17:43:55 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bibliography of first-person WW2 narratives

At 4:15 PM 1/26/95, Mike Yaklich wrote:
>        Okay, this is far from exhaustive, maybe even not too extensive, but
>here is a list of first-person accounts of WW2 combat at lower echelons that I
>have read (at least what I remember):
[..]

>US/NAVY/PACIFIC
>
>        James Fahey, "Pacific War Diary" (illegally kept diary of seaman
>                aboard light cruiser in Solomons, Phillipines, etc)

Another one that I like very much is:

_Little Ship, Big War_, by Stafford (I think that's right he wrote _The Big
E_)  It's about a DE.  An interesting story about citizen sailors.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 17:43:58 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

At 1:26 PM 1/26/95, Ron Babuka wrote:

>John - how does that run counter to what I read?  It seems to me that the
>Soviet officer was saying that the Russian soldier was persona non grata so
>to say and that nothing is done for the family if he is just missing or
>none to be dead in action.  Now the section that I wrote about going to
>extremes to retrieve bodies is a facet unique to Afganistan (maybe that
>wasn't clear) due to the numbers of unaccounted men being drastically
>smaller and the ability to get in and out to retrieve being easier than
>during WWII.
>

OK, I see what you mean now.

>>>        I am talking off the top of my head but I remember reading an
>>>article that talked about some of the codes of conduct for Soviet
>>>servicemen.  Under no circumstances ever were any soviet soldiers, sailors,
>>>or airmen ever allowed to surrender.  Servicemen were expected to stand up
>>>to the enemy until they were victorious or dead (which ever comes first).
>>>If a unit was overrun, they were expected to act as partisans until they
>>>were able to relink up with other soviet units.
>>>        If a serviceman is declared missing, the families of these
>>>serviceman recive NO benefits until it can be shown that they died in
>>>combat.  This is not limited to the Stalin-era military, but was in effect
>>>during the Afganistan war.  That is one of the reasons why Red Army and Air
>>>Force units were very aggressive in  attempting to return the remains of
>>>men from run over units and downed airmen.  The soldiers attempting to
>>>return the remains did this so that the dead mens families back home could
>>>recieve death benefits and hopefully someone would do the same for them if
>>>they were killed on the battlefield.
>>
>>That runs counter to an account I read where a liberated American officer
>>wanted to get the identity of a dead Russian soldier.  A Soviet officer
>>wondered why, and the American said so his next of kin can be informed he
>>is dead.  The Soviet officer said, "They'll know when he doesn't come
>>back".

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 03:13:05 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bibliography of first-person narratives

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Mike Yaklich wrote:

> BRITISH/AIR

Charles Lamb, "War in a stringbag", the story of a RN Swordfish pilot.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:12:31 EST
From:    Paul Gregor <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Capt. Beach and other writers.

  A Time for Trumpets (on the Bulge) Macdonalds Account used to be available
from a series on war put out by possibly Ballantine- it includes Patton,
War as I Knew It, Rocket Fighter (on the Me-163) and Ernst Rudel Stuka Pilot

                                  Paul Gregor
    Just A Fly on the Butt of the Last Camel in the Internet Caravan.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:24:22 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BOOK:Charles Whiting

I suppose Terry has it right on this one.  While authors like Hoyt and
Whiting may not write the best history, they and A.J.P. Taylor are having
the last laugh, cause I'm sure they all have lotsa money!

Semper Fi

Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:01:00 UTC
From:    John Cantley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Inside The Third Reic

Another good book regarding the mind of Albert Speer was his diaries from
his time in jail after the Nuremburg trials. I believe the title was Spandau
something something. It gives good insight to his thougths right after the
trials. He gives his opinions on what happened and why. His thoughts
concerning the different "henchmen" are very interesting. Especially after
the ones in power were reduced to day to day life in a prison.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:46:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rocket Fighter

On 26 Jan 95, Paul Gregor wrote:

  A Time for Trumpets (on the Bulge) Macdonalds Account used to be available
from a series on war put out by possibly Ballantine- it includes Patton,
War as I Knew It, Rocket Fighter (on the Me-163) and Ernst Rudel Stuka Pilot

Paul,
     Don't you mean the ME-262?

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 03:11:02 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF markings

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Dennis E. Sparks wrote:

> Are you aware that the entire rear fuselage of the Hurricane was of
> wood and fabric construction?

I hope he isn't :-). It was actually a tubular metal construction, covered
with fabric. On the very first Hurricanes, the wing was also covered with
fabric.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:00:44 -0800
From:    "Aida E. Dean" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Arizona at Pearl Harbor

Can anyone identify the photographer who filmed the explosion of the
forward magazine on the USS Arizona during the attack on Pearl Harbor?
Why was he filming the Arizona at that particular moment during the
attack?  Any information or sources would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 23:44:24 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: P-51s to Russia?

HI all,
Steve New and several others have commented about Lend Lease in general and
recently on P-51 in particular.
One book I found interesting on Lend Lease is by Robert H. Jones. title is
Roads to Russia, Univ of Oklahoma Press, 1969. Besides many pages of
interesting text Jones has multiple tables containing all sorts of data.
On the P-51 issue - he shows none - zero - sent to Russia. Numbers for some
other models were:
B-25     862
B-24     1  - it was stranded in Russia on a mission and taken
P-40     about 2048
P-39     about 6000
P-47     about 55
P-63     about 2312+
he gives exact numbers, but I just copied out general totals

on the question of relative significance of the different routes -

North Russia - Atlantic    3,964,000 tons  - 93% made it
Persian Gulf                   4,160,000 tons  - 96% made it
Black Sea                         681,000 tons  - 99% made it
Far East                         8,244,000 tons  - 99% made it
Arctic Ocean, ie Siberia      452,000 tons  - 100% made it

hope this is interesting

best wishes

john sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 22:43:35 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Arizona at Pearl Harbor

> Can anyone identify the photographer who filmed the explosion of the
> forward magazine on the USS Arizona during the attack on Pearl Harbor?
> Why was he filming the Arizona at that particular moment during the
> attack?  Any information or sources would be appreciated.

That film (if is the same sequence I'm thinking of) is actually a
Hollywood recreation.

A documentary was made about the Pearl Harbor attack.  The details and
realism were so high that the government denied release of the film for
a while though some clips were released.  Some of those films still
persist today as authentic footage.  (Or so I've been told... :-)

There is some amateur film out there somewhere that I've seen.

To the Pearl historians -- What was the true story on all the classic
film shot of the attack?

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Jan 1995 to 26 Jan 1995
*************************************************