Subject: WWII-L Digest - 31 Jan 1995 to 1 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 00:05:03 -0500

There are 69 messages totalling 2809 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Japanese POWs in China?
  2. INF: USN Chronology 02-01-95
  3. Enola Gay Exhibit (13)
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-FEB-1945
  5. IJsselmeer,P-47
  6. Jimmy Stewart's crew
  7. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 02Feb45
  8. JAP POWS IN CHINA?
  9. ?from high school student JRM
 10. WEAP: Battleships
 11. QUERY: British Imperial War Museum
 12. Knight's Cross Series
 13. Re[2]: World War 2 Music
 14. MEDIA:More Enola Gay (2)
 15. MEDIA:Enola Gay
 16. Fwd: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 02Feb45 (2)
 17. Sicilian Invasion (3)
 18. INF: Photos available (2)
 19. book reviews, personal experiences
 20. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
 21. ? from high school student JRM (2)
 22. Peruvian Ecuadoran War (2)
 23. Arizona at Pearl Harbor
 24. [INF] USAAF 31 JAN 45
 25. Flying Tigers
 26. Rocket Fighter (4)
 27. TRIV: The Fighting Lady
 28. World War 2 Music (4)
 29. Westerly RI oral history (1 of 5)
 30. WESTERLY RI ORAL HISTO
 31. Congressional Medal of Honor
 32. subscribe
 33. Distance to Tokyo
 34. [INF] USAAF 2 FEB 45
 35. ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT (3)
 36. Invasion Casualties Japan (was Enola Gay)
 37. MEDIA:ENOLA GAY
 38. MEDIA:MORE ENOLA GAY
 39. Air Commando Units
 40. Mike Yaklich/WWIIsongs
 41. TAC: Aerial Mining (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:02:01 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in China?

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Roger Coon wrote:

> What was the fate of the Japanese army forces in China at the close of
> the war?  I know that in parts of the occupied European colonies they
> were used to help maintain order and to suppress insurgencies.
>         Also, how long did it take to get those forces back to Japan?
> Thanks in advance,
> Brad Coon
>

Hi Brad,

I do not know about Japanese POWs China but I did run across an interesting
related note about 10 years ago related to Japanese POWs in Russia.   From
memory there were 54,000 Japanese still in Russian camps as late as 1954.
Many never saw their homeland again.

Aloha,

John DeVirgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 04:00:15 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-01-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/01 Thu.  United States naval vessels sunk:
             PT-77, accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
              Philippine Islands area,
              13 d. 55'N., 120 d. 36'E.;
              beached and abandoned.
             PT-79, accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
              Philippine Islands area,
              13 d. 55'N., 120 d. 36'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Transport NO. 115, by Army aircraft, Philippine Islands
              area,
              20 d. 00'N., 121 d. 00'E.
             Submarine RO-115, by destroyers JENKINS (DD-447),
              O'BANNON (DD-450), and BELL (DD-587), and destroyer
              escort ULVERT M. MOORE (DE-442), Philippine Islands
              area,
              13 d. 20'N., 119 d. 20'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 06:53:33 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

The Wall Street Journal editorial for Tuesday came to pretty much the
same conclusion Joe did, only extending the idea to historians in
general. (If you do your math, you will realize that most historians at
the fulness of their working lives are products of the Vietnam-era
mindset in American universities, and that's true whether you are
right-thinking or left-thinking :)

                 - Dan    <[email-masked]>

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Barone wrote:
>         The way I perceived the cancellation is that, if the Museum
> encounters too much opposition to a certain exhibit, they would
> rather cancel it than change it.  What sounded more ominous to me
> was the following line:
> "Although there will be no formal consultation process for this [new]
> undertaking, I will work with whomever I believe necessary to produce
> it."
>         Considering the bias that has been demonstrated, I wouldn't
> be surprised if only similarly "right-thinking" people were believed
> "necessary to produce it."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 07:18:02 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-FEB-1945

On 02-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 9th and 2nd Divisions
emerge from Monschau Forest and head toward Dreiborn and Schleiden,
respectively. The 2nd Division takes Schoneseiffen and Harperscheid. The
1st and 82nd Airborne Divisions, jumping off at 0400, overrun pillboxes,
dragons' teeth and other fortifications at the West Wall. The 1st Division
emerges from Buchholz Forest near Ramscheid. In the 7th Army sector, the
36th Division continues the fight for Oberhoffen and attacks Rohrweiler.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the main assault forces of the 1st
Cavalry Division reach the Sabang-Baliuag sector. In the XI Corps area, the
American advance is held up by the Japanese in front of the Zigzag pass. In
the 8th Army sector, the 11th Division advances slowly to the foothills of
the Tagaytay Mountains.

Leyte - The 77th Division concludes combat operations on the island and
are withdrawn to prepare for the landing on Okinawa.

Burma - The Japanese force the British 36th Division to withdraw its small
bridgehead across the Shweli.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:27:00 +0100
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: IJsselmeer,P-47

>From our local newspaper dd 31-1-1995.

Last week, they found the wrack of a P-47 Thunderbolt.

The P-47 was shot down by a Messerschmidt fighter over the IJsselmeer
on 11 December 1943. (Dennis the same day as your great-uncle?)

The place is kept secret to keep souvenir hunters away.

As far as I know the IJsselmeer the plane must be in 12-15 feet deep
water and 3-6 feet of mud.

The chronology of Jack McKillop showed us that that day there was a raid
against Emden and 3 P-47 were missing.

Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 06:49:21 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Jimmy Stewart's crew

Dear all ;

Can someone offer me a little help?

I spoke yesterday at the barber shop, here at LSU (Baton Rouge, LA) and one
of the barber's said that his dad had been the tail gunnerfor Jimmy Stewart.

Well now, Jimmy flew with the Mighty 8th in B-24s.
He flew with the 453rd Bomb Group from Old Buckingham.  Stewart was Group Exec.
Officer from March '44.
The 453rd consisted of the 732nd, 733rd, 734th, and 735 Squadrons.

I said all of that to say this :

The barber wants to know which squadron did Jimmy fly with?  Further, what was
Jimmy's Liberator called?

The barber's dad was Paul Cashio (AKA, "Radio Sam").

Any help guys?

BTW, what data I did have comes via Roger Freeman's great work, "The Mighty
Eighth."

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
B.R., LA

("World's greatest lover of the B-17 Flying Fortress")

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:05:45 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 02Feb45

February 2, 1945
D-Day +241

-Extreme German supply problems were reported by G-2. Further opinion
 was that the Germans lacked the strength to mount anything more than
 a local spearhead attack through the entire sector.

-VIII Corps, 90th and 87th Inf Divs captured Bleailf, Radscheid, Krewinkel,
 Bertherath, Weckerath, and Losheim. The 95th Inf and 11th Armored remained
 in reserve.

-Seven artillery battalions, XX Corps, let loose on a group of 12 German
 tanks east of Kreuzweiler.

-XIX TAC flew 414 sorties, cutting 29 rail lines, and claiming 585 railroad
 cars and 32 locomotives.

-Flame throwers were outfitted on 4th and 6th Div medium tanks, in place of
 the machine gun. The gun and flame thrower were interchangable within
 30 seconds. The flame throwers effective range was 50-70 yards.

-Ammunition dumps began toppling over with the thawed ground giving way.
 50% of 3rd Army's ammunition had to be restacked.

-Sled dog teams were to be flown in from Labrador for medevac.

***Source: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:42:32 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: JAP POWS IN CHINA?

Thanks Ben, I will look for the book.  I look forward to finally reading
some of your writing, especially about this period after the war that
has become much greater part of my interests lately.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:52:22 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 14:27:28 -0500 Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. said:
>I just finished rereading I. Michael Heyman's statement inre: the cancellation
>of the Enola Gay exhibit. Is it me, or does he just not get it?
>
>HE states in the second paragraph that veterans and their families "...were
>not looking for analysis...". Is this true, or is the fact rather that
>many people were offended by the SLANT of their analysis.

Or perhaps by the slant of the criticism.  There isn't going to be any way
to know, however, because someone else has made the decision on my behalf
that I shouldn't be allowed to see it & judge for myself.  If you infer
from this that I am disgusted, you are correct.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 07:58:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ?from high school student JRM

Hello, Margaret!

Would just add a quick comment to Scott's post to you. The Japanese
were also not quite certain just what type of weapon was used at
Hiroshima, and with such a short span of time between the employment
of the second bomb and the first, the Japanese had no time to
consider alternatives.

Hope this helps.

Terry

> >   If the first bomb was so destructive and awful, why did Japan not
> > surrender and avoid being bombed again?
> >
> >   Also, how was radar used during WWII?
> >
> > I would appreciate any information or opinions on why?  Thank you.
> > JRM
> >
> >
> > margaret                                [email-masked]
> >
>
> Hi
>    Margaret
>
>        Many suspect the reason the Japanese did not surrender after the first
> bomb is they were still getting over the intial shock of such mass
> destruction and considering the way the government worked they may not
> have had time.
>
>       As for rader it saw its first successful use during the Battle of
> Britian in 1939-40 during which British early warning posts allow the coast
> gave advanced warning of Germany air raids. It was later used on ships,
> submarines and planes.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Scott Stathis
>
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:57:39 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:41:07 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
>About time, they should just fire them all and get a new board,
>I saw them on the news and can't believe that those revisionists
>are in charge of our national heritage.

McCarthyism, alive and well 40 years later.  Isn't history wonderful!

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:02:32 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:58:49 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
>Jim, all I want is a balanced view, stating that only 70,000 men would
>have been killed in an invasion is wrong

Prove it.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:04:53 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:11:33 -0500 Barone said:
>        The way I perceived the cancellation is that, if the Museum
>encounters too much opposition to a certain exhibit, they would
>rather cancel it than change it.

I feel that is grossly inaccurate, given the constant process of revision
reported to the public as a result of constant pressure on the institution.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:07:55 CST
From:    Roel Vining <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

In response to John Kollar's comment regarding 16 Polaris missles
targeted at an Iowa:

1) I earnestly hope the US Navy does not develop the habit of
shooting at its own ships, written off or not;

2) One item we don't have to imagine, that being one (yes, one)
Exocet striking one of our "modern" tin-foil armoured
frigates (i.e., USS Stark).

R. Vining
Lincoln NE

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:39:06 +0000
From:    Hugh G Henry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUERY: British Imperial War Museum

Dear Mr Herz

You could try contacting:

STEPHEN WALTON
Department of Documents and Printed Books
IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM
Lambeth Rd
London  SET 6HZ
Tel: 171 416 5000/5331
Fax: 171 416 5374
NO E-MAIL

On Sat, 28 Jan 1995, Henry Herz wrote:

> My apologies for asking this question a second time, but my email has been
> acting strangely for a month.
>
> Does anyone have any contacts at the British Imperial War Museum (name, phone or
> email)?  Thanks.
>
> -Henry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:59:38 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Knight's Cross Series

> Seen some post concerning the Knight's Cross. The following is extracted
>  from"On The Field Of Honor: A History of the Knight's Cross Bearers" by LTC John
>  R. Angolia.
>
> Hope this helps answer some questions.
> Chip

Thanks for the update Chip.  Angolia writes collector's ref. books.
Are you, by  chance, a collector too??

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:48:04 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: World War 2 Music

Hey--don;t forget my favorite--

*ding ding* "PENNSYLAVIA SIX FIVE OH OH OH"

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:36:38 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:More Enola Gay

>From the DoD Newswire 1 February 1995

:JAPANESE REGRET ENOLA GAY MOVE

   TOKYO  -- Japanese leaders and atomic bomb survivors
expressed regret Tuesday over the Smithsonian Institution's
cancellation of an exhibit on America's decision to drop the bomb on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
   "From the viewpoint of the feelings of the Japanese people, the
decision is regrettable," said Prime Minister Tomoichi Murayama.
"But there is nothing the Japanese government can do about it."
   The Smithsonian decided Monday to cancel an interpretive exhibit
on the Enola Gay, the B-29 that dropped the bomb over Hiroshima, at
the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. The decision
followed complaints by American veterans' groups and members of
Congress that the exhibit would portray Japan as a victim and the
United States as a wartime aggressor.
   Under a scaled-back plan, the Smithsonian will exhibit the
fuselage of the Enola Gay without commenting on the use of the bomb.
"We are heartbroken over the U.S. decision," said Sunao Tsuboi,
acting director of a 30,000-member Hiroshima survivors organization.
"We are going to consult with others and see if we can't hold a
similar type of A-bomb exhibit independently somewhere else in the
United States," Tsuboi said in a telephone interview from Hiroshima.
Hiroshima mayor Takashi Hiraoka said in a statement that the
Smithsonian's cancellation was "all the more unfortunate" because
the city had hoped the exhibit would raise public opposition to the
use of nuclear weapons.

====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:33:50 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Enola Gay

>From the DoD Newswire 1 February 1995

:U.S. EXHIBIT SHOWS WAR VIEWS

   TOKYO  -- In the latest trans-Pacific clash over how to
commemorate the end of World War II, Japanese reacted angrily
Tuesday to the cancellation of a U.S. exhibit on the atomic bombings
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
   "I realized once again the gap between the opinions of people
here and over there," Masato Araki, a 74-year-old survivor of the
Nagasaki bombing on Aug. 9, 1945, told the national Asahi newspaper.
Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama expressed disappointment about the
Smithsonian Institution's decision to display only the fuselage of
the B-29 that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, without commentary.
Murayama said Tokyo doesn't plan any formal action.
   On Monday, the Smithsonian abandoned plans for a major exhibit on
the atomic bombings and the 50 years of controversy that followed
after protests from U.S. veterans and congressmen, who said the
exhibit would portray Japan as a victim of American aggression.
   U.S. conservatives and war veterans have bristled at questions
about the appropriateness of using the bombs, which left some
200,000 people dead, noting that they prevented the need for a
bloody invasion of Japan.
   By focusing on the civilian casualties and the destruction
wrought by the bombs, Japanese have long portrayed themselves as
victims. Many here feel that events marking the bombings should be
used to demonstrate the destructive power of nuclear weapons and to
promote their abolition.
   "We had been hoping that we could build public opinion for a
world without nuclear weapons by having Americans see the horrible
destruction caused by them," said Hiroshima Mayor Takashi Hiraoka.
   Hiraoka and Sunao Tsuboi, acting head of a 30,000-member
Hiroshima survivors group, said they would try to set up separate
exhibits elsewhere in the United States around the time of the 50th
anniversary of the bombings.
   Others were more bitter at the Smithsonian's decision.
   "They did something that they can't face the world with, so
they're hiding it," Takumin Yamada of the Nagasaki A-Bomb Victim
Association told Asahi. "It's the same mentality as a criminal."
   The fracas over the Enola Gay exhibit is only one of several
recent disputes World War II commemoration disputes.
   In December, the United States withdrew a plan for a postage
stamp commemorating the bombing of Hiroshima that depicted a
mushroom cloud over the caption "Atomic Bombs Hasten War's End,
August 1945." The plan sparked protests from Japanese officials and
activist groups.
   Last June, Japan turned down repeated U.S. invitations for
Emperor Akihito to visit Pearl Harbor during his U.S. trip,
apparently fearing controversy over what the emperor would be
expected to say about the attack.
   Many conservatives and Japan's small but vocal rightist fringe
insist that World War II was a Japanese attempt to free Asia of
Western colonial powers, and that Japan need not apologize.
   Japan has also reportedly asked to be left off the invitation
list for a ceremony in Hawaii marking the 50th anniversary of its
Sept. 2, 1945, surrender.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:48:03 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fwd: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 02Feb45

Much deleted
-Ammunition dumps began toppling over with the thawed ground giving way.
 50% of 3rd Army's ammunition had to be restacked.

-Sled dog teams were to be flown in from Labrador for medevac.

Must have been really bad snow, huh?  Never heard that story
before.  Anybody have more to add to this??  Any of our
neighbors north of the border care to elaborate?
Jim

***Source: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:26:53 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Sicilian Invasion

I was wondering if anyone had preinvasion accounts of Sicily. To what
extent was the Sicilian underground involved? Was there Mafia involvement?

I recall seeing a documentary some time ago. It spoke of Mafia involvement.
I can not remember the name of the documentary or to what extent the Mafia
was involved.

Any information would be appreciated,

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:30:18 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Photos available

        A fellow at work was kind enough to scan in some photos of
my father and his buddies in the Italian army.  One interesting
photo has a bunch of guys hanging on some type of mortar with
monstrous metal wheels (railroad?).  Another shows two troopers
in African uniforms and a third has my father and another soldier
examining a rifle.  They are from 1940 and 1941.  Anyway, is there
an ftp site interested in these files?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend the rest
of the war in a prison camp.  Besides which, I'm a first
generation Italian.  They would shoot me as a traitor.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 23:45:45 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:

> I just finished rereading I. Michael Heyman's statement inre: the cancellation
> of the Enola Gay exhibit. Is it me, or does he just not get it?
>
> HE states in the second paragraph that veterans and their families "...were
> not looking for analysis...". Is this true, or is the fact rather that
> many people were offended by the SLANT of their analysis.
>
> He blames the failure fo the exhibit on the concept of combining the use of
> atomic weapons and the end of the war. I allways thought it was the SLANT
> being placed upon the use of atomic weapons, and the deification of things
> Japanese, and the denigration of things US that was the problem.
>
> I agree with his statement that the Institution "has much to learn from the
> experience".
>
>                                                                 Steve
>
Exactly my thoughts after I heard him reading that part of the statement
on the BBC.  I thought it significant that the BBC chose to broadcast
only THAT part of his statement.

After reading the statement, posted here by a SI staff member, I posted a
message here, which has not turned up in my inbox, in which I stated that
I though Heyman had compounded his arrogance with condescention and that
he ought to start the press rolling on his resume.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:43:32 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: book reviews, personal experiences

You might want to look at SEIG HEIL! WAR LETTERS OF TANK GUNNER KARL FUCHS,
1937-194 (1987), Richardson and Showalter, ed.  It contains the letters of
a typical German solder of the late 30's and early war years.  Good idea
of how highly regarded Hitler was by such people.  Fuchs was killed in Russia
in late 1941.

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:50:15 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Revision: 1 February 1995
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Just some minor stuff.  - Joe]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  My name is
Joe Barone and I am the listowner.  I can be reached at [email-masked].

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
wire, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one!

        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
to read, I offer the following "flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject:
line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

ADMIN For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
      Responses to these articles are welcome, but only listowner
      should originate an "ADMIN" article.
ARC   For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives
      should be posted under this flag.)
DOC   Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War, Speeches, Treaties, etc.
EDU   For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.
GEN   "Let's find a category for this."
HOME  For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.
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Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:58:58 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

>On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:11:33 -0500 Barone said:
>>        The way I perceived the cancellation is that, if the Museum
>>encounters too much opposition to a certain exhibit, they would
>>rather cancel it than change it.
>
>I feel that is grossly inaccurate, given the constant process of revision
>reported to the public as a result of constant pressure on the institution.
>
>ken koester

Hi Ken,... my 1st impression is as Joe describes, cancel before change.
           Change was debated and compromised, but never wholly acceptable
           to both parties. If you ask me, donation $ keeps the issue hot.
           It's political and the Only reason I write is to point that out.
           What a waste of energy and truth... :-\
-Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:14:05 EST
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? from high school student JRM

>From: "Margaret J. McCormick" <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      ?from high school student JRM
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

>Members of the group,

>  If the first bomb was so destructive and awful, why did Japan not
>surrender and avoid being bombed again?

>  Also, how was radar used during WWII?

>I would appreciate any information or opinions on why?  Thank you.
>JRM

>margaret              [email-masked]

Lets talk RADAR this time, you'll probably get enough back about
the Japanese surrender to fill a book.

1.  Ground/Ship based Air Scanning RADAR

      This is the classic RADAR that most people think of when the
term is used.  Here a base station transmits a powerful radio
signal into the sky.  When this signal strikes a solid object, a
part of the radio energy is bounced back (called a return) to a
receiving antenna at the base station.  This returned signal is
translated into a "blip" on the RADAR operator's screen.

      WWII RADARS were pretty crude, and the information
made available by the "blip" was limited.  The operator could tell
the distance to the target based on the speed of the return.  He
could tell the direction to the target based on the direction that
the receiving antenna was facing when the return was received, and
he could tell the relative size of the target based on the
strength of the return signal.

      The most effective strategic use of Air Scanning RADAR was
probably that of the British during the Battle of Britain.  They
used an array of RADAR sites strung along the east coast of the
country to defend against German bomber attacks.  The information
from all these stations was consolidated at a central command
post, and the experts there would direct fighters to intercept
the Germans.  With the Germans free to attack anywhere along the
British east coast, and with just a small number of short ranged
fighters to oppose them, the fighter controllers effectively (if
not perfectly) out-fought the Luftwaffe for months.

      In seaborne operations, an aircraft carrier's Combat
Information Center would perform the same role as the central
command post for fleet defense.

2.Ship based Anti-Ship RADAR

      These were essentially short ranged sets that would send
RADAR signals across the sea toward the horizon.  If the signal
struck a ship the return would indicate the distance and bearing
to that target.  Not considered reliable by many commanders, the
information was generally used to aim guns in ship to ship gun
battles where visibility was restricted by storms, smoke, or
nighttime darkness.

3.  Air based anti-ship RADAR.

      In these sets, an aircraft would aim a radar signal on the
water.  The return signal would be weak and flat if there were no
ships in the area, and would spike if the RADAR bounced off the
hull or snorkel of an enemy ships.

      In the Northern Atlantic, the Navy flew RADAR equipped SBD
Dauntlesses and TBM Avengers to hunt for German U-boats.  Although
the U-boats were formidable while surfaced, their limited battery
running time, and slow peformance, diminished their effectiveness
while submerged.  The Germans developed a device called the
Snorkel to provide air for their diesel engines, allowing the rest
of the ship to remain underwater.  The airborne radars were
capable of detecting these snorkels, and leading the pilot right
to the enemy submarine.

      In the Pacific, the Japanese did not present the submarine
threat that the Germans did to Europe.  As the war progressed, and
the Japanese Navy became weaker, they took to moving their surface
ships at night to avoid detection.  RADAR equipped Dauntlesses and
Avengers were joined by RADAR equipped PBY Catalinas who could
attack the shipping at night, and loiter around the target until
more planes or ships could be brought to continue the attack.

4.  Air based Anti-Aircraft radar.

      As night bombing became more damaging to both sides of the
war (German and Japanese cities being devastated, US ships being
sunk in greater numbers) both sides developed specialized aircraft
designed to use RADAR to detect and aim their guns at the enemy.
In most cases, these were very short ranged sets.  The night
fighter would be guided to the vicinity of the enemy aircraft by
the ground based RADAR operator.  When in close proximity to the
enemy, the aircraft RADAR would provide closer approach
direction.  In the end, however, the intention of WWII
nightfighters was to get the fighter close enough to the enemy
aircraft to make a visual attack.  The systems weren't
sophisticated enough to actually aim and fire the guns as they do
now.

5.  Most Mundane, RADAR (Radio) Altimeters.

The normal air pressure type altimeter on an aircraft doesn't
actually measure how high the aircraft is from the ground, but how
high the aircraft is from sea level.  It was always necessary to
adjust the altimeter to indicate the difference from sea level
that your airfield was at, your target, the ground you were flying
over, etc.  This was often very difficult to accomplish when
flying over uneven terrain (over the hump in Burma for example.
Also, the closer to the ground that you got, the less reliable
your altimeter became.

      RADAR altimeters work by bouncing a radio signal off the
ground, and timing the return bounce.  They are not affected by
changes in air pressure or temperature, and actually become more
accurate at lower altitudes.  This can be very important when
flying in bad visibility conditions, as it's always that last six
feet that cause the crash (you were doing all right before then,
weren't you?).

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:14:49 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

Oh, wow, and here I thought no one else read about these obscure wars.

There's some good info on forces, equipt, brief outline of fighting in

THE ARMED FORCES OF LATIN AMERICA: THEIR HISTORIES, DEVELOPMENT, PRESENT
STRENGTH AND MILTARY POTENTIAL
    by Adrian J English  (Jane's Ltd, 1984)

if no one else has access to this out there, I'll add this to my growing
list of things to post...eventually....

Peru used a battalion of Czech LT-38 tanks in the battle (yeah, the same
ones the Romanians used on the Eastern Front...)

Peru actually dropped paratroops on 27th July 1941, the first time
airborne troops were so deployed in the Western Hemisphere.

Hey, Mike, if you're reading this, the Peruvian Air Force had an Italian
Military Mission until about 1938----- any info??

Gotta go.  More later, sometime, hopefully....

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:22:06 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Robert asks:

"Basically:  What would you like to see in this kind of environment?"

I think the best way to handle this type of display is to use a
timeline on the wall, starting with how the War in the Pacific got
started, the battles (both defeats and victories), important events,
and of course how the war ended.  Photos of events help (the Arizona
exploding, the Flag on Mt. Suribachi, etc).  For each entry on the
timeline there should be a legend showing which units were involved,
and the casualties they had.  The final scene should be the view of
the surrender deck in Tokyo Harbour, with total casualty figures for
both sides.  Make no political statements about who was right or
wrong; simply display the truth as it unfolded and let the public
think about it, and make up their own mind.

---

Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |
National Semiconductor   |           DON'T   TREAD   ON   ME               |
Santa Clara, Ca          |                                                 |
[email-masked]     |                                                 |

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:48:38 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Arizona at Pearl Harbor

>Hi All!
>
>An old friend of mine served aboard destroyers and destroyer tenders during
>the war (WW II, the big one) He enlisted just after Pearl Harbor and has
>been the source of much first hand navy info, but... between us we can't
>figure out what the rationale behind what he called "the cage masts" on
>the older battleships was. I don't have any good pictures  of the older BB's
>in front of me, but it seems I remember there was a superstructure of some
>kind supported by the "cage"--can anyone provide more info-like you folks at
>the Arizona? I'm not sure that cage mast is even a correct term.
>
The concept was that it would provide a sturdy mast that could withstand
battle damage w/o collapsing, as happened to several dammaged tripod masts,
when one leg was severed. It was not a complete success, and the re-fits of
the thirties re putting tripods on in there place.

Jim O'Neil     From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW
II:
               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:01:59 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

        While I generally agree with the criticisms voiced of the proposed
Enola gay exhibit (for whatever my .02 is worth)-- how can anyone look at what
happened on Okinawa and say casualties for Japan itself would have been no
worse is beyond me (and I think things like the actual medical preparations
already set in train by the US military would have been a good indication of
what we expected from a non-political point of view)-- I must say one or two
things regarding the recent announcement from the Smithsonian.  Unless I
misread my daily paper yesterday, the Director of the Institution has only been
on the job four months or so, which would mean he inherited this problem when
the process was already fairly far along.  Also, it is not usually the policy
of the Director to get personally involved with the content of the exhibits,
pro or con.  So while I agree with the general tenor of the criticisms of the
SI's job on this exhibit, I think Joe and others might want to cut this
particular director a little more slack (unless I'm totally wrong about his
tenure there, in which case I guess I'm due to wear some egg on my face soon
via this list).  Seems to me he just inherited a tough situation and is doing
his best to find a middle road out (not that I totally agree with his solution
either, but that's another story).  In my mind, the real villain of the piece
is the guy in charge of the Air & Space museum component and/or of developing
the exhibit in the first place.  Why accept the revisionist version as gospel?
And who is this Bernstein dude (I almost want to read his stinking book just so
I can see what he adduces as evidence for a figure of 60,000 casualties-- it
would seem pretty obvious that Okinawa on a larger scale would be the most
plausible scenario, and didn't we lose close to 50,000 men there?).  Has there
been a line of scholarship on this question that I missed that provided some
real hard evidence to support the revisionist line on casualties?  If not, why
haven't some other serious historians (outside the Marine Corps-- I trust their
analysis but I can at least comprehend why some of the groups involved would
consider them biased) stepped up to rebutt this line of thinking??  And if the
revisionists are dead wrong or working from political conjecture rather than
hard facts, why have so many in the historical community said politics is
distorting history by cancelling the original (revisionist) version of the
exhibit??  I still believe the conventional wisdom here-- i.e., I'd have
dropped the bomb too, and for the simple reason of ending the war and saving US
lives, but if there is a convincing alternative does anyone know where I can
read more of the other sides' point of view.

        Pardon my length and meandering

        Mike Yaklich

        "Asia begins with the Landstrasse*"
                        Count Metternich

                (*street leading east from Vienna toward Hungary and
                        the Balkans-- although nowadays its easier to
                        head south on the autobahn to Wiener Neustadt,
                        then go east, but that's another story...)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:55:31 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 31 JAN 45

OK, now that I know more about aerial mining, what makes a squadron or
group a "commando" unit?  Since they all seem to be in India and Southeast
Asia, I suspect it has something to do with the ground fighting, but can
anyone tell me more?

Thanks
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:21:49 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Flying Tigers

Hello, Jack!

Will see what I can find. May take some time however, but won't
forget.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:23:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

Hello, Paul!

You are welcome. Hope I was able to help.

All the best.

Terry
> Thanks once again Terry....I see and I obey...."Kirk to Enterprise,
> Kirk out."
>
>
>                                Paul Gregor
>
>                                Kent State
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:26:15 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

>
> Oh, wow, and here I thought no one else read about these obscure wars.
>
> There's some good info on forces, equipt, brief outline of fighting in
>
> THE ARMED FORCES OF LATIN AMERICA: THEIR HISTORIES, DEVELOPMENT, PRESENT
> STRENGTH AND MILTARY POTENTIAL
>     by Adrian J English  (Jane's Ltd, 1984)
>
> if no one else has access to this out there, I'll add this to my growing
> list of things to post...eventually....
>
> Peru used a battalion of Czech LT-38 tanks in the battle (yeah, the same
> ones the Romanians used on the Eastern Front...)
>
>

Did the Ecuador have something comparable or means of defending themselves
against those ? Perhaps their cavalry charged the tanks - the first intance
of such a thing in the Western hemisphere ...

eru actually dropped paratroops on 27th July 1941, the first time
> airborne troops were so deployed in the Western Hemisphere.
>
> Hey, Mike, if you're reading this, the Peruvian Air Force had an Italian
> Military Mission until about 1938----- any info??
>
> Gotta go.  More later, sometime, hopefully....
>
 I think Peru also had a couple of BR-20 bombers ,I rember this from Bill Gunston's Bombers Of The WW II, but i  do not have the book with me so I can not verify it.
Perhaps this is(one of the) reasonn between the Italian Mission.

Best Regards.
Ozgur Altinyay
>                                           Glad To Be Of Service!
>                                           Greg Kelley
>                                           St. Paul Public Library
>                                           [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:33:55 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: The Fighting Lady

        The film under discussion ("The Fighting Lady") definitely refers to
the (2nd-generation) YORKTOWN, CV-10.  It is shown aboard that preserved
carrier at Patriots' Point, Charleston, S.C., as part of the ship's tour.  I
know because I was there last May.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:48:38 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: World War 2 Music

        To William Lippert:
        My favorite on that excellent list of WW2 music has to be "Stalin
Wasn't Stallin'"... sample lyrics, for those on the list not familiar--
        "Stalin wasn't stallin'
         When he told the Beast of Berlin
         That he'd never rest content
         Till he had driven him from the land
         So he called the Yanks and English
         And proceeded to extinguish
         The Fuhrer and his vermin
         That's how it all began..."

        Hey, OK, its not very good history, but I guess artistic license can be
invoked.  This one was originally written/recorded by a barbershop quartet from
San Francisco in 1942 or so, if I recall correctly.  Can't remember the name of
the group offhand.  Guess it would have come out a little different in '45 or
later...BTW, this number was re-recorded (in barbershop quartet a capella
format) by a British musician named Robert Wyatt a decade or so ago, on an
album entitled "Nothing Can Stop Us."  Wyatt, an original member of the
jazz-influenced group Soft Machine, a drummer/vocalist who was later paralyzed
from the waist down when he fell out of a window in his apartment building,
is still a flag-waving card-carrying Commie.  The same album also includes a
poem titled "Stalingrad" by some West Indian poet, and such old favorites as
"The Red Flag" (to the tune of "Tannenbaum," ..."though cowards flee, and
traitors jeer, we'll keep the Red Flag flying here...")

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:55:49 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Westerly RI oral history (1 of 5)

        Two quick proof-reading comments on "Ack Ack Morrone"
        Its the Po Valley (not Poe)
        and its a Norden bombsight (not Nord)

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:18:26 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WESTERLY RI ORAL HISTO

> I cannot but note
> that oral history as I know and practice it results in a verbatim transcript
> rather than a mix of parts of a transcript and interviewer's comments or
> paraphrase of the interview.

What I have on hand are verbatim transcripts done by people other than
myself in Westerly (I live in Cols. OH).  What I am doing for my aunt at
her request is condensing (in the case of #1, Ack Ack Morrone, for
instance) a 25-page transcript (typed from an audiocassette of the
interview) down to a single-line, 1.5-page summary.  There are a total of
104 interviews whose transcripts, ranging from about 25 to perhaps 100
pages in length, are all being condensed into 1.5-page (or less) summaries.
(These instructions are from teh Westerly Historical Society to my aunt.)

 I realize that a transcript of a full interview
> would take up considerable space, perhaps you could post it as an enclosure, or

What's an "enclosure"?  I would not want to put the actual transcripts up
on the net because I don't have access to their text files--in fact, I
fear that there are no text files because my aunt, who knows nothing about
computers, didn't know to ask transcriptionists to give her files on disk.
For all I know, these hired transcriptionists trashed the files or even
did their typing on old Royals!  (When I mail her the six summaries I'm
working on next week, I intend to summarize in lay terms ways the Society
can save money via desktop publishing, SGML, CyIndex, etc.   I will also
propose that we scan photos of the subjects to go with their summaries.)  I
believe that the Society intends to gather all the 1.5-page summaries and
then look for an editor and then a publisher.

> even better, post a listing of the interviews you have conducted, name, rank,
> service, and a brief synopsis of each interview. Ben Frank

For now I intend to post the four other WWII interview *summaries* (Ack
Ack was the first, and I really blew it because I ended up posting it
three times by mistake--how embarrassing!) on this list because I'm
getting very useful feedback.  While I can and should look up basic things
(e.g., "caliber" not "caliper" and "Chanute Field" not "Shenoot"), the
info I'm seeing (some of it via private e-mail) about technical matters is
invaluable.

I think what you're referring to is that I tried to illustrate the point
that the transcriptions clearly contain errors and I don't have the
expertise to recognize all of them.  I threw out as an example the 88mm
mortar excerpt from the actual transcript (and that is where you saw me
type up the words of Ack Ack and the interviewer's interjection).

Ben, I have never done oral history work before, so I greatly appreciate
your feedback.  As an editor (although now I'm at home with a neurological
disorder) I try hard to watch for inaccuracies, hence my concern about the
state of these histories.  I know that future researchers shouldn't have
to undergo confusion if a summary (all they may see in the local library)
states "88mm" only because the subject stated so--did the subject just
forget?  Did the transcriptionist make a typo?  Did the military actually
use 88mm mortars at one time?  Should the final editor (not me, although I
will certainly continue volunteering without fee to help as much as I can)
leave "88mm" in the summary and make a bracketed note [probably 81mm]?  Or
should the final editor of this collection call people like Ack Ack up on
the phone and get the facts straight?

I cannot emphasize how much all help is appreciated.  On one hand I'm
trying to obey my aunt's orders (hey, she's been in three wars--I take
orders from her!), but on the other I want to help her understand that the
finished compilation can/should be more accurate and less costly.  There's
a personal exigency, too, in that this project is dear to her and when
*she* says she's about to go, I tend to believe her!

I hope that when she sees the queries I can attach to the summaries
(thanks to the responses from this list), she and the W. Historical
Society will let me continue to be involved with the project....

Thanks very much, I am open to and appreciative of all suggestions!

Cheryl                                    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:31:54 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Congressional Medal of Honor

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Charles Mattocks wrote:

>
> Bill, you are right: General Smedley Darlington Butler, USMC (ret).
>
> He received the first CMH 1914 at Vera Cruz, Mexico as a Major.
>
> He received his second CMH in 1915 at Haiti, as a Major.
>
> Fifteen years earlier, in the Boxer Rebellion, Butler lead a rescue mission that

Not to denegrate General Butler's bravery and accomplishments, but when I
was researching the Medal of Honor for the interviews I was doing, I read
that the Medal of Honor was at one point a lot easier to get than it is
now. I remember for sure that they said that it was relativly easy to get
in the Civil War and I think they said that the restrictions weren't
tightened until after WWI, but am not sure. Anyway, it's possible that
during these conflicts, Mexico, Haiti and Boxer Reb., it may have been
easier to be awarded the medal. Just my 2c worth.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:45:22 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 02Feb45

Hi Jim,...

Much deleted
>-Sled dog teams were to be flown in from Labrador for medevac.
>
>Must have been really bad snow, huh?  Never heard that story
>before.  Anybody have more to add to this??  Any of our
>neighbors north of the border care to elaborate?
>Jim

Back on 29Jan44 a request was made to Twelfth Army group to obtain "dog
teams and sleds to assist in the evacuation of patients through deep snow
being encountered by Third Army divisions." -Charles Province

They were entering the Eifel in which altitude plays a factor in
winter weather. Note that a late January thaw was also causing the
low-land drainage areas to become flooded, and ground to thaw
beneath such depots as ammunition,... causing logistical problems.
Basically a pain-in-the-arse. ;-)  Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:57:20 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

> On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:58:49 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
> >Jim, all I want is a balanced view, stating that only 70,000 men would
> >have been killed in an invasion is wrong
>
> Prove it.

I propose that we get several million of our people and several million
Japanese, pull every ship and aircraft into service that we can find and
arm everyone with splatball guns and have a real wing-ding of a tournament
and prove it once and for all.  :-)

But to the real question -- does not the documentation, analysis and
belief _of the time_ support the argument that casualties would be far
greater than 70,000?  Note that I mean the widely held and widely believed
analyses.

I continue to ague that moral questions have to be placed into the context
of the time they were made.  What was learned afterwards makes an excellent
continuation of the story and lessons for the future.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 15:15:43 -0600
From:    "James J. Dowd" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

In message Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:22:06 PST,
  Alan Hepburn <[email-masked]>  writes:
  "... Make no political statements about who was right or
> wrong; simply display the truth as it unfolded and let the public
> think about it, and make up their own mind."
>
>
The idea that one might "simply display the truth" is a myth; further, the
conclusion that, as a result of seeing a display, the public will "think
about it, and make up their own mind" is also a myth.  Historical events are
interpretable from any of a variety of vantage points, none of which
constitutes the single truth.  Some will come to such an exhibit with
minds already made up; others will be ready to accept whatever the exhibit
leads them to conclude (and hold onto those ideas at least until the next
exhibit comes along that might suggest a different interpretation).

Leaving out interpretation or analysis altogether merely ducks the issue and
guarantees not that the "truth" will be served but only that the
professional archivists at the Smithsonian have been forced to yield to
organized political pressure.
Jim Dowd
Dept. of Sociology
University of Georgia
Athens, GA  30607

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 15:16:58 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:More Enola Gay

        Regarding the way the spokesperson for the Hiroshima survivors' group
was "heartbroken" over the cancellation of the Enola Gay exhibit, and is
looking to stage a similar exhibit in some other venue in the U.S...
        ...are there any Japanese groups lobbying to have an "interpretive"
display on say, the rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march, the Burma railway,
the "medical experiments" on POW's, etc, staged in some venue in Japan?? Its
funny how sensitive these people are to the US need for re-education on our
part on WW2, but isn't this the same country where, a few years ago, the movie
"The Last Emporer" was edited for domestic consumption by having one scene
removed-- the 30 seconds or so where the Emporer Henry Pu-Yi is forced to watch
documentary scenes of Japanese atrocities in Manchuria.  Etc, etc, etc...its
almost enough to make me agree with the hard-liners on this issue.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:29:50 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: World War 2 Music

'be a good idea to also include LILI MARLENE -- especially as sung
by Marlene Dietrich, in English and German.
LILI was that rarity, a favorite song with soldiers on both sides.

Interesting, how it got that way. Originally an obscure song by a
little-known German singer, the record was played over the German
army radio station in Belgrade, for transmission to the Afrika Korps
in Libya.  The singer was Lale Andersen.  Her song became so popular
with the Afrika Korps it was broadcast very often. Sonn, it became
just as ppular with British troops in the desert, as well. Before
long, it was translated into English, and continued one of the
most often sung melodies of the war.

Lale Andersen did not make any money, despite the popularity of her
rendition.  She emigrated to Canada after the war, and died a few
years ago in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Regards -- Sidney  (and you're all lucky this isn't *voice-mail* ! )

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:39:41 -0600
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Medical section records provide fairly unbiased, albeit conservative,
predictions of casualties.  Also, consider the large numbers of medals
(notably purple heart) that were stocked.  These provide some numeric
value to the inescapable sense of high casualties expected in light of
the preceding engagements.

Like it or not, the weight of argument is against low figures.  Prove to
me, in light of the Iwo, etcs., campaigns that the casualties would be so
low?  You can construct an argument either way, but there is more
tangible evidence to support higher numbers.

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Ken Koester wrote:

> Prove it.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:22:13 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: World War 2 Music

There are a lot of WWII-era song and music collections available
commercially. "Big band sound", the Andrews Sisters, Vera Lynn,
Glenn Miller's orchestra, collections of wartime songs -- "Johnny Zero",
"Praise The Lord, And Pass The Ammunition", "We'll Meet Again...", Blue Birds
Over The White Cliffs Of Dover, I Gotta Gal In Kalamazoo....
Tons of that era music available.

Regards.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:28:57 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Photos available

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Barone wrote:

>         A fellow at work was kind enough to scan in some photos of
> my father and his buddies in the Italian army.  One interesting
> photo has a bunch of guys hanging on some type of mortar with
> monstrous metal wheels (railroad?).  Another shows two troopers
> in African uniforms and a third has my father and another soldier
> examining a rifle.  They are from 1940 and 1941.  Anyway, is there
> an ftp site interested in these files?  Thanks.
> --

Joe - I'd love to put them out in my 50 YA archives.

John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:22:17 -1000
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: subscribe

Can someone tell me how to subscribe to this list?  Geoff White,
[email-masked].

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:49:46 EST
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sicilian Invasion

        In 1943 my father was serving as a Navy commander at the Third
Naval District (3ND) Intelligence Office in New York City.  A criminal
lawyer in peacetime, he had been a reserve officer with Naval Intelligence
since 1929 and had been recalled to active duty in May, 1940.  As you may
know, the District Intelligence Office at 3ND was tasked with the beach
intelligence requirements for the invasion of Sicily.
        I knew none of this or what follows until my father's funeral in
March, 1967.  I was on duty with the Navy's Bureau of Ships in Washington
at the time and returned home on leave immediately following his death.  At
the funeral I was taken aside by two men whom I dimly remembered from my
childhood.  They had, of course, aged considerably, but I did recall their
names when they introduced themselves and knew they had served at 3ND with
my father.  I was asked if I knew what my father had done during the war
and when I replied in only the most general terms, they proceeded to relate
a story that, at the time, I thought bordered on the incredulous.
        It seems that 3ND attempted to work thru the very large Sicilian
population in the metropolitan New York area to meet the beach intelligence
requirements, but got nowhere; they were, essentially, stone walled.  The
Naval officers then tried another tack; maybe by enlisting the aid of the
mafia, they could then induce New York's Sicilian population to come forward.
        Prior to WWII, the New York mafia had been run for some years by
Lucky Luciano.  In 1940, a successful prosecution of Luciano by then
District Attorney Thomas E. Dewey on prostitution charges had resulted in a
long prison term .  By 1943, Dewey was New York's Governor and Luciano was
firmly ensconced in Dannemora Prison in upstate New York from where, it was
rumored, he still controlled New York's rackets.  Sometime in early 1943 my
father and one or two other Naval officers journeyed to Dannemora Prison to
talk with Lucky Luciano.
        As related to me, they cut a deal with Luciano.  He would
"guarantee" the cooperation of New York's Sicilians; in return, at the end
of the war he would be deported to Italy.   Obviously, such a deal would
require the cooperation of the Governor of New York who, in this case,
happened to be the man who put Luciano in jail.
        From Dannemora Prison they continued on to Albany where they
presented the deal to Gov Dewey.  Of course, this being wartime and
anything goes, Dewey quickly agreed.  Back to Dannemora and the results of
the Dewey meeting were conveyed to Luciano.  The men then took the train
back to New York City.
        Within 24 hours of their return, thousands of former Sicilians were
line up outside 3ND headquarters at 90 Church Street in lower Manhattan.
They bore photographs and verbal descriptions of family outings to the
beaches in Sicily.   On the basis of this material, the invasion beaches
were selected and scale models of those beaches were constructed along with
the accompanying tide-in tide-out information.  It is, of course, a matter
of public record that Lucky Luciano was deported to Italy after the war by
then Governor Dewey.  Luciano died in Italy in the 1960s.
        I was stunned when I heard the story; my father had never talked at
all about what he had done during the war.  All that my mother and I knew
was that he had served with Naval Intelligence.  During the late sixties I
contacted some of the other men still alive with whom my father had served
and, after realizing that I knew the story, they acknowledged that the
story was true as I had related it to them.
        Today all the participants in this strange tale and all the
observers who had knowledge of it are gone; time has seen to that.  I have
the strange feeling that I'm the only one who can bear even secondary
witness to what must surely be one of the most bizarre chapters in our
Naval history.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:11:15 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Distance to Tokyo

Terry, this is in answer to your query, which I picked up last night. The
distance from Saipan to Tokyo is 1250 miles. Now give me a hard one. Cheers, Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 01:02:24 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sicilian Invasion

Hey Skip

FANTASTIC story! All is fair in war eh? :) This is the stuff that is so
hard to dig up and thus is so interesting.

I have been trying to do similar reasearch here but no one wants to talk
about the war except when they stole that or this item from the Allied
forces here :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:24:54 EST5EDT
From:    "Dr. Tom Veve" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Dear Mike:

    I find great merit in your comments about the Director of the SI
and your question of the role of the head of the Air & Space Museum.
Heymann was on Nightline two months ago or so, and had already
interceded in the controversy.  He was doing his best to calm
passions and still have an exhibit.  However, I also was appalled by
his comments in the cancellation statement earlier this week.  I will
say that I had the impression he was already under heavy pressure
from the revisionists when he was on Nightline, let alone the Legion.

    I thought that the subject was closed until the 63,000 dead number
showed its ugly face.  If the expert who contrived this number can
"prove" the 229,000 expected dead number incorrect, it surely won't
be long before 63K can also be shown inaccurate.  Who on earth can,
with dead accuracy, came up with a number anyway.  The real question,
and only question, is what did Harry Truman know and when did he know
it?  When I pose the question of deciding whether or not to use the
A-Bomb to my students, it can only be posed on the knowledge of fifty
years ago.  Truman did not have fifty years to make a
decision.  While I understand what revisionist history is all about,
it should not have been used in the way it was in the Enola Gay
exhibit. Period.

    BTW, I believe that Mr. 63K has an article in the current
issue of Foreign Affairs.

    Regards,

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:34:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 2 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 2 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 P-40s attack a regimental HQ and a
storage area at Lungchow, China.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 11 B-25s pound troops and
supplies at Loilem; 60+ fighter-bombers support ground forces in the Molo,
Hosi, and Mabein areas; troops, supplies, town areas, and vehicles are
attacked at Panma, Kan-loi, Pansak, Man Ho Pang, Pongkalau, Hsenwi, Namtu,
Panghai, Kong kang, and Ondon. Transports complete 485 sorties to forward
bases and over the frontline areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 22 of 24 P-51s fly an uneventful
sweep in the Koblenz-Wetzlar-Siegen-Siegburg, Germany area.
  Mission 816: During the night of 2/3 Feb, 1 B-17 and 8 B-24s drop leaflets
in W Germany.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 350+ B-26s, A-26s, and A-20s bomb
road and rail bridges to block the E-W movement E of the Rhine River and
defended localities E of the battlefront in W Germany; fighters hit bridges
and fly escort, armed reconnaissance and patrols, and support US Third Army
elements along the Our River in Belgium and the Sauer River in Germany. In
France, HQ 406th Fighter Group and the 513th Fighter Squadron move from
Mourmelon-le-Grand to Metz with P-47s; the 393d Fighter Squadron, 367th
Fighter Group, moves from Juvincourt to St Dizier with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather cancels bombing
operations; 1 B-17 and 1 B-24 drop supplies in N Italy. 33 P-51s, with 14
others flying top cover, strafe Kurilovec Airfield in Yugoslavia; 11 other
P-51s escort a Royal Air Force (RAF) supply dropping mission over Yugoslavia.
11 P-38s fly photo and weather reconnaissance; photo reconnaissance is
covered by 24 other P-38s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers, taking
advantage of improving weather conditions in NE Italy, hit bridges at Lavis,
Chiusaforte, Calliano, Mantua, Rovereto, Calcinato, and Dogna; bad weather at
bases restricts XXII Tactical Air Command aircraft to 5 weather
reconnaissance sorties.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 20 Guam Island, Mariana Island-based B-24s
pound a storage area on Iwo Jima Island. During the night of 2/3 Feb, 10
B-24s, flying individual harassment raids, bomb the island's airfields. 4
P-47s, on a reconnaissance flight, strafe buildings on Pagan Island, Mariana
Islands. 22 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Corregidor Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Colonel Carl A
Brandt becomes Commanding Officer XIII Bomber Command. On Luzon Island, B-24s
continue to pound Corregidor Island and Cavite and A-20s hit the Baler Bay
area. In the Cagayan Valley on Mindanao Island, Philippine Islands, B-25s
attack pillboxes, gun positions, and river barges. B-24s hit Okayama Airfield
on Formosa during a dawn raid. HQ 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group moves
from Leyte Island, Philippine Islands to Binmaley, Luzon.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

02/0133Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:43:48 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

I totally agree with your concept of what the exhibit should have been, Alan.
Once politics and revisionism started driving the development of the Enola Gay
exhibit, it was doomed. I recall saying in a meeting where the third revision
of the exhibit script was being discussed, "From my reading of the script, I
wonder who won the war." It was that slanted. Thank goodness this is all over
and perhaps the Smithsonian can mount an honest, unbiased, historically
accurate exhibit telling of the end of the war. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:37:53 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Invasion Casualties Japan (was Enola Gay)

>> On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:58:49 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
>> >Jim, all I want is a balanced view, stating that only 70,000 men would
>> >have been killed in an invasion is wrong
>
>> Prove it.

>But to the real question -- does not the documentation, analysis and
>belief _of the time_ support the argument that casualties would be far
>greater than 70,000?  Note that I mean the widely held and widely believed
>analyses.

>I continue to ague that moral questions have to be placed into the context
>of the time they were made.  What was learned afterwards makes an excellent
>continuation of the story and lessons for the future.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist

If it will help, the next time I go to NARA I will pull up the sixth army
operations plan for Olympic and MacArthurs tentative AFPAC plan for Coronet.
These plans should have the estimated amount of casualties planned for by
the military planners.  (they needed the information to program replacements)
The invasion of Japan would be like Europe, no rest until it was over.
Will let the list know when I dig up the info, if that is what everyone wants.
Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:10:49 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:ENOLA GAY

I feel that I must really respond to the Japanese attitudes reported in this
story. First of all, who the hell cares what the Japanese think about the Enola
Gay matter. Secondly, when Japanee leaders begin apologizing for the sneak
attack on Pearl Harbor, the way they treated American POWs, and all the rest we
have called them to account for, maybe then, and only then should we concern
ourselves with what they think. I must say that even when fighting the Japanese
in the Pacific in World War II, I was not as exercised about them as I am
currently. I don't know if any of my fellow WWII vets of the Pacific War feel
that way. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:10:57 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:MORE ENOLA GAY

In an editorial entitled "The Smithsonian Changes Course" in today's (2
February) Washington Post, there are some interesting lines. I quote some of
them: "It is important to be clear about what happened at the Smithsonian. It
is not, as some have it, that benighted advocates of a special-interest or
right-wing point of view brought political power to bear to crush and distort
the historical truth. Quite the contrary. Narrow-minded representatives of a
special-interest and revisionist point of view attempted to use their inside
track to appropriate and hollow out a historical even that large numbers of
Americans alive at that time and engaged in the war had witnessed and
understood in a very different--and authentic way." The editorial ends: "Over
the longer term, this confidence-undermining episode constitutes a threat to
the Smithsonian's stature and independence. But the museum brought this danger
on itself by the fecklessness with which it left itself open to legitimate
attack on a fiercely contested topic whose delicacy and complexity it ought to
have appreciated without all the fuss." I think that that states the matter
very well. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:13:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Air Commando Units

 >OK, now that I know more about aerial mining, what makes a squadron or
 >group a "commando" unit?  Since they all seem to be in India and Southeast
 >Asia, I suspect it has something to do with the ground fighting, but can
 >anyone tell me more?
 >
 >Thanks
 >Tim J. Watts
 >Valparaiso University

The concept behind the air commando units was to have a
self-sufficent unit that could be used to support long-range
penetration operations.  The concept originated in the CBI where
units like Merrills (sp?) Marauders were operating behind enemy
lines for long periods of time.  The original organization of the
air commando group was two fighter squadrons of 25 P-51s each, one
troop carrier squadron of 16 C-47s and 32 CG-4A gliders, and three
liaison squadrons each with 32 L-5s and a small number of UC-64s.
By the summer of 1944, the strategy in the CBI changed from one of
long-range penetration to amphibious operations and the two air
commando groups training in the US were no longer needed.  These
two units were offered to General George Kenney, CG of FEAF, and
he jumped at the chance to get them.  FIrst, he was eager to get
his hands on the P-51s to replace his P-40s.  The Army had to
depend on the Navy for supplies and Kenney was looking for a
self-sufficient organization, logistically and otherwise.  As he
put it, "Boats are all right in their place but the Navy fights a
different war and the Air Force here would like nothing better
than to rely solely on air transportation."

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:51:11 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

Mike, you are correct. Heyman has only been at the Smithsonian for about four
months. Re/casualties, to settle what we (i.e., the U.S. planners for Olympic)
thought the numbers would be, I would like to find the logistics plan for the
operation to determine how many crosses and Stars of David the invaders were
going to take with them. In modern times, we would be concerned with the
numbers of body bags. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:07:18 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

>
> One thing that Chris said at the conclusion of his post that "Rudel
> was a devout admirer of AH" (to paraphrase, as I inadvertently erased
> it). While I wouldn't disagree with that completely, he did remain
> faithful to belief in National Socialism and to his service as a
> soldier. He did make mistakes, no question of that, that cloud his
> name, but his exploits speak for themselves, and to my mind, a
> person's politics are a separate issue from his military exploits.
>
I agree with you, and this is a tricky subject for me.  I play these air
combat games, and then I read the autobiographies of guys like Sakai and
Steinhoff, and I ask myself- are these guys my heroes?  In my definition,
a hero is someone who you admire and would like to emulate.  so would I
like to fly for Hitler and shoot down americans?  Impossible!  so what
are these guys?
   The only thing I knowfor sure is that I love to read about them.
Their motivations vary greatly from personto person and even from timeto
time.  When I asked Wolfgang Spate in a letter (not exactly in these
words) if he felt embarrassed flying for the bad guys of history, he said
that at the time they simply didn't think much about politics.  They were
too busy trying to get through the day without being burned, shot or
killed.  You thought about the guys in your jagd-gruppe, and whatever the
business of the day was.
   I noticed a very interesting and revealing comment in oneof Johannes
Steinhoff's books, I think it was "Messerschmitts Over Sicily".  Hesaid
something to the effect of how they (he and Adolf Galland) had started
out thinking they were great conquerers, and had ended up in "this hell".
In the early days of the war they knew what they were doing!  They knew
they were Nazis!  They were out to conquer the world, and they didn't see
anything wrong with that at first.  In fact they were quite proud of it.
 This idea that it is wrong to to take over other nations and enslave
them, just because you have the power to
do it, is a VERY MODERN IDEA.  I never realised that before.  This idea
is probably only two, maybe three, generations old.  As little as a
hundred years ago it was morally acceptable to march out and conquer your
neighbors and even enslave your fellow man if you could do it.  The human
race is evolving very quickly these days!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:10:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: World War 2 Music

  >Our school is considering putting together for Canada Remembers(for the
  >50th anniversary of D day) a musical salute to this event. Can anyone
  >suggest music for voice and band that might be appropriate. Glen
  >Millar and singers like Vera Lynn immediately come to mind. What other
  >music might be considered?
  >
  >**********************************************************
  >* Ian Wingfield                                          *
  >* 447 Emerson Avenue  "A closed mouth gathers no feet"   *
  >* Winnipeg R2G1G8                                        *
  >* Manitoba, Canada                                       *
  >**********************************************************

Ian,

The following is from POP HITS 1940-1954 by Joel Whitburn.

The top pop artists for 1944 were:

 1. Bing Crosby
 2. The Andrews Sisters
 3. Jimmy Dorsey
 4. Harry James
 5. Ink Spots
 6. Dick Haymes
 7. Guy Lomardo (born London, Ont)
 8. Ella Fitzgerald
 9. Frank Sinatra
10. Helen Forrest
11. Ella Mae Morse
12. Glen Gray
13. Lawrence Welk
14. Woody Herman
15. Tommy Dorsey
16. Lousi Jordan
17. Jo Stafford
18. The Four King Sisters
19. The Mills Brothers
20. The Merry Macs

The top 20 artists during the period 1940-44 and their biggest record
up to 1945 were:

 1. Glenn Miller: IN THE MOOD which made the No. 1 spot on 21 Oct 39
 2. Bing Crosby: SWINGING ON A STAR which made the No. 1 spot on 13 May 44.
    Of course, his biggest record was WHITE CHRISTMAS which hit No. 1 on 10
    Oct 42.
 3. Tommy Dorsey: I'LL NEVER SMILE AGAIN which hit No. 1 on 20 Jul 40
 4. Jimmy Dorsey: AMAPOLA which hit No. 1 on 22 Mar 41
 5. Harry James: I'VE HEARD THAT SONG BEFORE with vocal by Helen Forrest
    made No. 1 on 30 Jan 43
 6. Kay Kyser: JINGLE JANGLE JINGLE with vocal by Harry Babbitt, Julie
    Conway and The Group made No. 1 on 4 Jul 42
 7. Andrews Sisters: RUM AND COCA-COLA made No 1 on 6 Jan 45
 8. Benny Goodman: TAKING A CHANCE ON LOVE with Hel Forrest on vocal
    reached No. 1 on 8 May 43
 9. Ink Spots: INTO EACH LIFE SOME RAIN MUST FALL reached No. 1 on 4 Nov 44
10. Dinah Shore: I'LL WALK ALONE reached No. 1 on 12 Aug 44
11. Sammy Kaye: DADDY reached No. 1 on 7 Jun 41
12. Dick Haymes: YOU'LL NEVER KNOW reached No. 1 on 10 Jul 43
13. Freddy Martin: PIANO CONCERTO IN B FLAT reached No 1 on 9 Aug 41
14. Frank Sinatra: ALL OR NOTHING AT ALL with Harry James and his Orchestra
    reached No 2 on 19 Jun 43
15. Woody Herman: BLUES IN THE NIGHT (MY MAMA DONE TOL' ME) reached No 1 on
    10 Jan 42
16. Vaughn Monroe: THERE I'VE SAID IT AGAIN reached No. 1 on 17 Mar 45
17. Guy Lombardo (born in London, Ont): IT'S LOVE-LOVE-LOVE reached No 1
    on 18 Mar 44
18. Artie Shaw: FRENESI reached No 1 on 3 Aug 40
19. Charlie Barnet: WHERE WAS I reached No 1 on 6 Jul 40
20. Horace Heidt: I DON'T WANT TO SET THE WORLD ON FIRE reached No 1 on 27
    Sep 41.

The top 10 records each year are listed below.  Million sellers are
surrounded by **'s.

1940
----
 1. *IN THE MOOD* by Glenn Miller
 2. FRENESI by Artie Shaw
 3. I'LL NEVER SMILE AGAIN by Tommy Dorsey (Frank Sinatra vocal)
 4. ONLY FOREVER by Bing Crosby
 5. *TUXEDO JUNCTION* by Glenn Miller
 6. SCATTER-BRAIN by Frankie Masters
 7. THE WOODPECKER SONG by Glenn Miller (Marion Hutton vocal)
 8. SOUTH OF THE BORDER (DOWN MEXICO WAY) by Shep Fiels (Hal Derwin vocal)
 9. SIERRA SUE by Bing Crosby
10. MAKE-BELIEVE ISLAND by Mitchell Ayres (Mary Ann Mercer vocal)

1941
----
 1. *AMAPOLA (PRETTY LITTLE POPPY)* by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly/Helen
    O'Connell vocal)
 2. *CHATTANOOGA CHOO CHOO* by Glenn Miller (Tex Beneke vocal)
 3. *PIANO CONCERTO IN B FLAT* by Freddy Martin
 4. DADDY by Sammy Kaye
 5. *GREEN EYES (AQUELLOS OJOS VERDES)* by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly/Helen
    O'Connell vocal)
 6. *MARIA ELENA* by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly vocal)
 7. MY SISTER AND I by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly vocal)
 8. ELMER'S TUNE by Glenn Miller (Ray Eberle vocal)
 9. BLUE CHAMPAGNE by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly vocal)
10. SONG OF THE VOLGA BOATMAN by Glenn Miller

1942
----
 1. *WHITE CHRISTMAS* by Bing Crosby
 2. MOONLIGHT COCKTAIL by Glenn Miller (Ray Eberle vocal)
 3. *JINGLE JANGLE JINGLE* by Kay Kyser (Harry Babbitt/Julie Conway vocal)
 4. *(I'VE GOT A GAL IN) KALAMAZOO* by Glenn Miller (Tex Beneke/Marion
    Hutton vocal)
 5. TANGERINE by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly/Hen O'Connell vocal)
 6. SLEEPY LAGOON by Harry James
 7. A STRING OF PEARLS by Glenn Miller
 8. BLEUS IN THE NIGHT (MY MAMA DONE TOL' ME) by Woody Herman
 9. *WHO WOULDN'T LOVE YOU* by Kay Kyser (Harry Babbitt vocal)
10. *PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION* by Kay Kyser

1943
----
 1. *I'VE HEARD THAT SONG BEFORE* by Harry James (Helen Forrest vocal)
 2. *PAPER DOLL* by the Mills Brothers
 3. *SUNDAY, MONDAY OR ALWAYS* by Bing Crosby
 4. *THERE ARE SUCH THINGS* by Tommy Dorsey (Frank Sinatra vocal)
 5. *YOU'LL NEVER KNOW* by Dick Haymes
 6. IN THE BLUE OF EVENING by Tommy Dorsey (Frank Sinatra vocal)
 7. COMIN' IN ON A WING AND A PRAYER by the Song Spinneres
 8. TAKING A CHANCE ON LOVE by Benny Goodman (Helen Forrest vocal)
 9. *I HAD THE CRAZIEST DREAM* by Harry James (Helen Forrest vocal)
10. THAT OLD BLACK MAGIC by Glenn Miller (Skip Nelson vocal)

1944
----
 1. *SWINGING ON A STAR* by Bing Crosby
 2. SHOO-SHOO BABY by the Andrews Sisters
 3. *DON'T FENCE ME IN* by Bing Crosby and the Andrews Sisters
 4. BESAME MUCHO (KISS ME MUCH) by Jimmy Dorsey (Bob Eberly/Kitty Kallen
    vocal)
 5. I'LL GET BY (AS LONG AS I HAVE YOU) by Harry James (Dick Haymes vocal)
 6. (THERE'LL BE A) HOT TIME IN THE TOWN OF BERLIN (WHEN THE YANKS GO
    MARCHING IN by Bing Crosby and the Andrews Sisters
 7. *YOU ALWAYS HURT THE ONE YOU LOVE* by the Mills Brothers
 8. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY by Bing Crosby
 9. MY HEART TELLS ME (SHOULD I BELIEVE MY HEART?) by Glen Gray (Eugenie
    Baird vocal)
10. I LOVE YOU by Bing Crosby

1945
----
 1. *RUM AND COCA-COLA* by the Andrews Sisters
 2. *TILL THE END OF TIME* by Perry Como
 3. *SENTIMENTAL JOURNEY* by Les Brown (Doris Day vocal)
 4. ON THE ATCHINSON, TOPEKA AND SANTA FE by Johnny Mercer
 5. MY DREAMS ARE GETTING BETTER ALL THE TIME by Les Brown (Doris Day
    vocal)
 6. *THERE! I'VE SAID IT AGAIN* by Vaughn Monroe
 7. *I CAN'T BEGIN TO TELL YOU* by Bing Crosby with Carmen Cavallaro
 8. CHICKERY CHICK by Sammy Kaye (Nancy Norman/Billy Williams vocal)
 9. IT'S BEEN A LONG, LONG TIME by Harry James (Kitty Kallen vocal)
10. I'M BEGINNING TO SEE THE LIGHT by Harry James (Kitty Kallen vocal)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 04:11:26 +0100
From:    "I.S. Berzenczei" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mike Yaklich/WWIIsongs

... a little bit more humanity, please

fine rendering of "Stalin wasn't stalling" by Robert Wyatt,
you added to the list, and mentioned something about him still
being a commie...=20
a song you did not mention, from the same album is
"Strange Fruit", Billy Holliday, anybody know that one?

if you do, changing "commie" into a more humane and social pov
fits more appropriate, no?

"the want of a nail", which war was that?

greetings
IstV=A0n
=20

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:28:49 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Paul Gregor wrote:

> Thanks everyone for your copious information on Hans Rudel...Lately
> I've had more queries than answers.  Does anyone Know for instance if test
> pilot Hanna Reisch (SP?) published memoirs --or where I might learn more
> than just snippets about her?
>
Indeed she did "Fliegen Mein Lieben", "Flying My Life".  She had a rough
life.  I've read about her because she was a test pilot for Me163
Rocket Fighter, much to the exasperation of the other rocket jockeys
in the program.  After thewar, allied intelligence began snatching up all
the high tech aircraft in germany they could grab.  At the same timethey
needed german test pilots who couldfly them.  They approached Hanna
Reitsch with an offer she couldn't refuse "Fly for the US or go to prison
for two years while we check your Nazi background."  Hanna, a tough
patriot, preferred prison.  She was tossed into a military prison for two
years, long enough to ruin her reputation and career.  Many years later,
impoverished but gutsy, she came to the US and some howstarted a gliding
club for women, I think in California.  she died a few years ago.  You'll
have a hard time finding her autobiography anywhere, but it's "Flying My
Life."  An interesting note, I had some correspondence with the legendary
german test pilot Rudi Opitz (at one time the fastest man in theworld,
and a goodfriend of Reitsch) and asked him about the carrot and stick.
Is that howhe cameto live in New England?  He huffed back that he had
never heard of such a thing, and did this really happen to Hanna?  I
xeroxed a couple of chapters from a book and mailed it to him.  So not
everyone got the carrot and stick apparently, just some.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:30:12 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Aerial Mining

You wrote:

>The source is OPNAV-16-V #A6 dtd March 1944 "Selection of Bombs and
Fuzes
>to be used against Various Targets"
>
>Jim O'Neil      They don't pay me enough to fight fair!
>
>
And where did you happen to come across this little jewel of a source?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:31:29 -0600
From:    "James J. Dowd" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

In message Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:43:48 -0500,
  Ben Frank <[email-masked]>  writes:

> I totally agree with your concept of what the exhibit should have been,
> Alan. Once politics and revisionism started driving the development of
> the Enola Gay exhibit, it was doomed. I recall saying in a meeting where
> the third revision of the exhibit script was being discussed, "From my
> reading of the script, I wonder who won the war." It was that slanted.
> Thank goodness this is all over and perhaps the Smithsonian can mount an
> honest, unbiased, historically accurate exhibit telling of the end of the
> war. Ben Frank

Ben:  As soon as words are put on paper, a point of view struggles to see
the light of day.  As soon as certain pictures are selected, while others
are kept in files, the exhibit takes on a certain perspective.  This is not
only not false or untrue, it is inevitable.  What would an interesting,
worthwhile, educational exhibit possibly look like and still meet your
standards that it be "honest, unbiased, historically accurate"?  History is
narrative, a story, and not the mere recitation of names and dates.
Jim Dowd
Dept. of Sociology
University of Georgia
Athens, GA  30607

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:37:12 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

>
>     She died in the early to mid-1980's from stomach cancer at the
> age of 67. She never married and, to my mind, remained a convinced
> Nazi to the day she did die. I did correspond with her and have a
> full page typed letter from her. She lived outside Frankfurt in
> Oberursel, Taunus.
>
Could you post your letter for us to read?  I'd loveto know what she was
like.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:37:24 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Aerial Mining

You wrote:

>>
>The following is from Lessons from an Aerial Mining Campaign, Rand
>Report R-1322-PR April 1974.  Tactics used were modified incindiary
>bombing techniques using radar from 5 to 6000 feet.
>
>Ed
>
Well, it appears that I lost the trailing part of the message, so here
goes another try:

Lessons From an Aerial Mining Campaign (Operation "Starvation"),
Frederick M. Sallagar, USAF Project Rand, R-1322-PR, April 1974

During the course of this five month campaign, over 12,000 mines were
laid, compared to 9,000 laid in the entire Pacific in the prior two
years.  Nimitz reported between 700,000 and 1,250,000 tons of shipping
sunk or damaged.  More importantly, surviving ships were bottled up in
the harbors for extended periods, virtually paralyzing Japan's maritime
traffic.

Mines Laid in the Pacific by Different Carriers

Carrier         Mines on Target
=======         ===============
Submarines           658
Surface Ships      2,829
Aircraft          21,876
  Total           24,876

The B-29s usually flew in streams at night, and used radar offsets to
determine drop points.  Many mines were dropped off target or on land,
while some prematurely detonated.  Delivery errors of one to two miles
were normal, but could be compensated for by simply sowing more mines.
The mines were a mix of acoustic, magenetic and later pressure  ground
mines.

By the end of 1944, it was estimated that the Japanese had spent in the
Inner Zone 35,715,340 yen and employed over 20,000 officers and men in
mine countermeasures efforts.

The following table sums up the effects of the B-29 mining campaign:

Period  Ships Sunk/Dmg  Gross Tons
======  ==============  ==========
Apr 45  18               31,000
May     85              213,000
June    83              163,000
July    78              198,000
August  29               67,000

On a personal note, my dad was a radarman during the Korean War, and
sailed quite frequently in these waters.  There is another book on this
mining campaign, and there was a diagram of one of the mining mission's
mine pattern, and his comment was something to the effect of "right
around there is a line of wrecks just like this pattern".  He used to
line up the masts and superstructures on the radar scope to get a fix.

Ed Kettler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:51:58 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? from high school student JRM

You wrote:

>
>>From: "Margaret J. McCormick" <[email-masked]>
>>Subject:      ?from high school student JRM
>>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
>
>>Members of the group,
>
>>  If the first bomb was so destructive and awful, why did Japan not
>>surrender and avoid being bombed again?
>
>>  Also, how was radar used during WWII?
>
>>I would appreciate any information or opinions on why?  Thank you.
>>JRM
>
>
>>margaret              [email-masked]
>
>
>Lets talk RADAR this time, you'll probably get enough back about
>the Japanese surrender to fill a book.
>
>
>1.  Ground/Ship based Air Scanning RADAR
>
>      This is the classic RADAR that most people think of when the
>term is used.  Here a base station transmits a powerful radio
>signal into the sky.  When this signal strikes a solid object, a
>part of the radio energy is bounced back (called a return) to a
>receiving antenna at the base station.  This returned signal is
>translated into a "blip" on the RADAR operator's screen.
>
>      WWII RADARS were pretty crude, and the information
>made available by the "blip" was limited.  The operator could tell
>the distance to the target based on the speed of the return.  He
>could tell the direction to the target based on the direction that
>the receiving antenna was facing when the return was received, and
>he could tell the relative size of the target based on the
>strength of the return signal.
>
>      The most effective strategic use of Air Scanning RADAR was
>probably that of the British during the Battle of Britain.  They
>used an array of RADAR sites strung along the east coast of the
>country to defend against German bomber attacks.  The information
>from all these stations was consolidated at a central command
>post, and the experts there would direct fighters to intercept
>the Germans.  With the Germans free to attack anywhere along the
>British east coast, and with just a small number of short ranged
>fighters to oppose them, the fighter controllers effectively (if
>not perfectly) out-fought the Luftwaffe for months.
>
>      In seaborne operations, an aircraft carrier's Combat
>Information Center would perform the same role as the central
>command post for fleet defense.
>
>2.Ship based Anti-Ship RADAR
>
>      These were essentially short ranged sets that would send
>RADAR signals across the sea toward the horizon.  If the signal
>struck a ship the return would indicate the distance and bearing
>to that target.  Not considered reliable by many commanders, the
>information was generally used to aim guns in ship to ship gun
>battles where visibility was restricted by storms, smoke, or
>nighttime darkness.
>
>3.  Air based anti-ship RADAR.
>
>      In these sets, an aircraft would aim a radar signal on the
>water.  The return signal would be weak and flat if there were no
>ships in the area, and would spike if the RADAR bounced off the
>hull or snorkel of an enemy ships.
>
>      In the Northern Atlantic, the Navy flew RADAR equipped SBD
>Dauntlesses and TBM Avengers to hunt for German U-boats.  Although
>the U-boats were formidable while surfaced, their limited battery
>running time, and slow peformance, diminished their effectiveness
>while submerged.  The Germans developed a device called the
>Snorkel to provide air for their diesel engines, allowing the rest
>of the ship to remain underwater.  The airborne radars were
>capable of detecting these snorkels, and leading the pilot right
>to the enemy submarine.
>
>      In the Pacific, the Japanese did not present the submarine
>threat that the Germans did to Europe.  As the war progressed, and
>the Japanese Navy became weaker, they took to moving their surface
>ships at night to avoid detection.  RADAR equipped Dauntlesses and
>Avengers were joined by RADAR equipped PBY Catalinas who could
>attack the shipping at night, and loiter around the target until
>more planes or ships could be brought to continue the attack.
>
>4.  Air based Anti-Aircraft radar.
>
>      As night bombing became more damaging to both sides of the
>war (German and Japanese cities being devastated, US ships being
>sunk in greater numbers) both sides developed specialized aircraft
>designed to use RADAR to detect and aim their guns at the enemy.
>In most cases, these were very short ranged sets.  The night
>fighter would be guided to the vicinity of the enemy aircraft by
>the ground based RADAR operator.  When in close proximity to the
>enemy, the aircraft RADAR would provide closer approach
>direction.  In the end, however, the intention of WWII
>nightfighters was to get the fighter close enough to the enemy
>aircraft to make a visual attack.  The systems weren't
>sophisticated enough to actually aim and fire the guns as they do
>now.
>
>5.  Most Mundane, RADAR (Radio) Altimeters.
>
>The normal air pressure type altimeter on an aircraft doesn't
>actually measure how high the aircraft is from the ground, but how
>high the aircraft is from sea level.  It was always necessary to
>adjust the altimeter to indicate the difference from sea level
>that your airfield was at, your target, the ground you were flying
>over, etc.  This was often very difficult to accomplish when
>flying over uneven terrain (over the hump in Burma for example.
>Also, the closer to the ground that you got, the less reliable
>your altimeter became.
>
>      RADAR altimeters work by bouncing a radio signal off the
>ground, and timing the return bounce.  They are not affected by
>changes in air pressure or temperature, and actually become more
>accurate at lower altitudes.  This can be very important when
>flying in bad visibility conditions, as it's always that last six
>feet that cause the crash (you were doing all right before then,
>weren't you?).
>
>
>
>
>    Steve L. New
>    [email-masked]
>    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.
>
>
I'd like to add in a few more uses for radar to Steve's list:

1)  Radar Bombing/Bomb Through Overcast:  Poor weather in Europe led to
using radar to locate terrain features and computing offsets for bombing
targets when they couldn't be seen because of cloud cover.  Usually the
lead bomber in the squadron carried the radar, and everyone else dropped
when the leader dropped.

2)  Radar Controlled Anti-Aircraft Guns:  An extension of Steve's #2.

3)  Radar Bomb Sights:  This was a specialized radar used in the Pacific
APQ-5 used for low altitude bombing against ships at night.

4)  Tail warning radars:  Used to warn the crew of someone sneaking up
behind you.

5)  Searchlight control radars:  used to point the searchlights to a
target, but not control gunfire.

6)  Airborne ranging radars:  used to assist gunners in hitting air or
surface targets.  Eagle was used on some 75mm equipped B-25s which
improved accuracy by ~300%.

There were also the transponder based systems like IFF, Gee, Oboe and
Rebecca.

Hope that helps.
Ed Kettler

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End of WWII-L Digest - 31 Jan 1995 to 1 Feb 1995
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