Subject: WWII-L Digest - 3 Jan 1995 to 4 Jan 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 00:01:22 -0500

There are 33 messages totalling 1312 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: IJN "Long Lance" Torpedo (3)
  2. IJN Radio Silent to Pearl Harbor
  3. JN-25 Info.
  4. Type 93 Gyo
  5. INF: USN Chronology 01-04-95
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-JAN-1945
  7. 3rd Army Chronology - 4Jan45
  8. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
  9. 3rd Army Chronology - 5Jan45
 10. 3rd Army Chronology - 6Jan45
 11. ? resources (10)
 12. West Palm Beach AFB
 13. Codebreaking and the Neutrals
 14. Gudmundar's Airlifted Pocket in Russia
 15. ADMIN: I'm back but...
 16. EDU: project for schools.
 17. REVISIONISM, AGAIN
 18. "Martyred Villages"
 19. Type 93 Gyo/Fuel of??
 20. V-2 Book Review (2)
 21. Apologies/Help

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 00:29:38 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - [email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: IJN "Long Lance" Torpedo

 X-To:    [email-masked]

 John De Virgilio

 The IJN Type 93 torpedo was used during the First Phase of Battle of the
 Java Sea, 27 February 1942. It could be fired up to 44,000 yards at 36 knots.

 Who named this weapon "Long Lance," and why ?

 Welcome to our list, John.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Jan 1995 19:37:06 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: IJN Radio Silent to Pearl Harbor

On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Carl Wernke - [email-masked] wrote:

>  A late response to John De Virgilio's earlier post about the U.S.Navy's
>  ability to read the JN-25 : (3) Does anyone know on what date/hour that the
>  ADM Yamamoto flight itinerary was intercepted by American Intelligence ?
>  Please inform RADM Koyama the following:
>  At 1755, 13 April 1943, the Navy monitor at Wahiawa radio station used an
>  ingenious typewriter with the "Kana" keyboard in Japanese, which
>  simultaneously cut a teletype tape; this tape, in turn, was fed into a
>  transmitter and sent automatically to Combat Intelligence, where a talented
>  group of code-crackers whose code name was Hypo, who started the
>  cryptanalysts and translators in Washington, working simultaneously with
>  those in Hawaii, discovered its secrets within five hours. --- Yamamoto had
>  forcast a year to eighteen months of Japanese victories after the
>  destruction of the U.S.Pacific Fleet. It was one year, four months and
>  eleven days after Pearl Harbor when he was killed, and after him there were
>  no major Japanese victories; there were only growing disasters, coming
>  ever nearer the home islands.
>
>
>  Source: _Get Yamamoto_, by Burke Davis.
>
>
>  Carl Wernke
>  [email-masked]
>

Carl Wernke,

Thank you for  responding to my earlier post - Questions from Koyama-san.
Koyama-san wanted to know the time, date, and who intercepted the Yamamoto's
radio itinerary.  For reasons close to his heart, Koyama did not answer my
inquiry as to why he wanted to know this small bit of historical trivia. The
Japanese interpreter, a close friend of Koyama-san's abruptly  changed the
conversation between us, signaling me that I was to close to an old and
personal wound (personal embarrassment).  I suspect that it was Koyama-san
himself or perhaps one of his navy radio communications team that sent the
JN-25 message(s) which led to  Yamamoto's death.  Later, I was kindly asked
to avoid this question in the future by his friend and interpreter Mr.
Uesaka.

Thanks again for your time.
Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 01:09:52 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - [email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: IJN "Long Lance" Torpedo

 X-To: [email-masked]

 John De Virgilio

 The IJN Type 93 torpedo was used during the First Phase of the Battle of the
 Java Sea, 27 February 1942. It could be fired up to 44,000 yards at 36 knots.

 Who named this weapon "Long Lance", and why ?

 Welcome to our list, John.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Jan 1995 20:14:12 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: IJN "Long Lance" Torpedo

On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Carl Wernke - [email-masked] wrote:

>  X-To:    [email-masked]
>
>
>
>  John De Virgilio
>
>  The IJN Type 93 torpedo was used during the First Phase of Battle of the
>  Java Sea, 27 February 1942. It could be fired up to 44,000 yards at 36 knots.
>
>  Who named this weapon "Long Lance," and why ?
>
>  Welcome to our list, John.
>
>  Carl Wernke
>  [email-masked]
>

Carl W.,

The type 93 torpedo had a range far greater than allied ship launch torps.
The reason for the high speed and long range was the special torpedo engine
that the Japanese constructed.  This engine mixed enriched air and salt
water.  The salt water engine had a limited life of two runs.  One test
run, after which it needed extensive cleaning and one live war run.

Your questions:

Why - this weapon had unparalleled range and hitting power.

Who named this weapon?   Interestingly, in a conversation with the late
Capt. Roger Pineau, several years ago, he asked me the same question.  I
was stumped and could not give him an answer.  He chuckled and said it
was the late great Samuel Eliot Morison who first called the Japanese type
93 gyorai the "long Lance".  Pineau recalled working one night with Morrison
on a history project just after(?) the war when Morison stated that a
special name is needed for this incredible torpedo.  Whalla! the "LONG
LANCE".

Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Jan 1995 20:22:37 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: JN-25 Info.

Carl Wernke,

Thank you for responding to my earlier post - Questions from Koyama-san.
Koyama-san wanted to know the time, date, and who intercepted the Yamamoto's
radio itinerary.  For reasons close to his heart, Koyama did not answer my
inquiry as to why he wanted to know this small bit of historical trivia. The
Japanese interpreter, a close friend of Koyama-san's abruptly  changed the
conversation between us, signaling me that I was to close to an old and
personal wound (personal embarrassment).  I suspect that it was Koyama-san
himself or perhaps one of his navy radio communications team that sent the
JN-25 message(s) which led to  Yamamoto's death.  Later, I was kindly asked
to avoid this question in the future by his friend and interpreter Mr.
Uesaka.

Thanks again for your time.
Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Jan 1995 20:27:20 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Type 93 Gyo

Carl W.,

The type 93 torpedo had a range far greater than allied ship launch torps.
The reason for the high speed and long range was the special torpedo engine
that the Japanese constructed.  This engine mixed enriched air and salt
water.  The salt water engine had a limited life of two runs.  One test
run, after which it needed extensive cleaning and one live war run.

Your questions:

Why - this weapon had unparalleled range and hitting power.

Who named this weapon?   Interestingly, in a conversation with the late
Capt. Roger Pineau, several years ago, he asked me the same question.  I
was stumped and could not give him an answer.  He chuckled and said it
was the late great Samuel Eliot Morison who first called the Japanese type
93 gyorai the "long Lance".  Pineau recalled working one night with Morrison
on a history project just after(?) the war when Morison stated that a
special name is needed for this incredible torpedo.  Whalla! the "LONG
LANCE".

Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 04:00:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 01-04-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
01/04 Thu.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer BALL (DD-587), by collision,
              Luzon area, P. I.,
              11 d. 25'N., 121 d. 19'E.
             Oiler PECOS (AO-65), by horizontal bomber, Luzon area,
              P. I.,
              12 d. 19'N., 121 d. 04'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 210, by aircraft, Formosa Strait.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:13:50 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-JAN-1945

On 05-JAN-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the 1st Army sector, the 2nd Armoured Division's main
effort against Consy makes little headway. The 3rd Armoured Division is
slowed by rear-guard action in Bois de Groumont but seizes Lavaux and
enters Lierneux. The 82nd Airborne Division makes progress all along the
line and repels counterattacks near Bergeval. In the 3rd Army sector, the
87th Division meets German resistance near Bonnerue and Pironpre, west of
Bastogne. In the 7th Army sector, the XV Corps clears Frauenberg and Gros
Rederching. The VI Corps makes slow progress against the Bitche salient in
the 45th Division area. Most of Wingen and Philippsbourg are cleared. On
the corps' right flank, the Germans establish a bridgehead across the Rhine
in the Gambsheim area, crossing between Kilstett and Drusenheim and
overrunning Offendorf, Herrlisheim and Rohrweiler.

Philippines - Kamikaze attacks on the Luzon invasion convoy continue,
causing damage to a number of vessels including the escort carriers Manila
Bay and Savo Island and the heavy cruisers Louisville and Australia. On
Mindoro, Palauan falls to a composite force of guerrillas and 503rd Para
Infantry troops.

Volcano-Bonin Islands - Iwo Jima undergoes a coordinated air-surface
bombardment by land-based aircraft from the 7th Air Force and a
cruiser-destroyer task group. Surface vessels also bombard Chichi and Haha.

Burma - Troops of the Chinese 30th Division begin crossing the Shweli.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                Cary, North Carolina                 [email-masked]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:28:43 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 4Jan45

January 4, 1945
D-Day +212

-G-2 interprets German activity as becoming wholly defensive.

-Letter of Instruction #12 from Twelfth Army group states that the 3rd Army
 would continue it's attack toward Houffalize and bring into effect a
 junction with the 1st Army in that area.

-Patton orders a cease-fire on crossroads located near German Army hospital
 after special request is recieved in 3rd Army HQ from Germans in the
 VIII Corps area. Patton sends officers to observe use of crossroads to
 ensure they are only used for wounded.

-XIX TAC grounded due to poor weather.

-3rd Army supplies released to be used in repairing 16th century University
 of Pont-a-Mousson. French reports indicate that the University was wontonly
 shelled by the Germans in September.

*** Source - _Patton's 3rd Army Chronology_ by Charles Province.
*** Typos are mine.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:42:03 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Revision: 2 December 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The major change is a disclaimer on copyright at the bottom.  - Joe]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  My name is
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

        One of the features of the listserver is the database search.  This
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//      JOB Echo=No
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search WEAP: in WWII-L
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Several members of the list provide daily updates of events that
occurred 50 years ago.  Much of this information is archived.  Below are
the addresses for retrieving archives of this information and much more.

| WWII-L ARCHIVES:
|   1. ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu in directory WWII_L
|
COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES is archived at two sites:

  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory /pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in
        /pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology

50 YEARS AGO TODAY is archived at:

  1. ftp.netcom.com, in directory /pub/jbd/www

50 YEARS AGO OF NAVAL ACTIVITIES and other historical goodies:

  1. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory /pub/history and all subdirectories

        To access these archives using ftp, connect to the desired system,
enter "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, then enter your Internet mail
address when prompted for password.  You can then cd to the appropriate
directories.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|       Copyright issues are a major problem on the Internet.  As far as
| I'm concerned, messages sent to this list are the intellectual property
| of the person who sent the message.  Members should not freely relinguish
| their rights.  If members don't expressionly copyright their material,
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| the list is the custodian of the information.  My policy will be to allow
| material to be reproduced only if it is done free of charge and is not
| altered in any form unless, of course, the owner has other requirements
| that would supercede this policy.
|
|       This is my first draft so I would appreciate any feedback from
| members.  My intent is to prevent people from acquiring personal gain,
| whether it is finanical or otherwise, from information that appears on
| this list without getting the consent from the authors of that information.
| If anyone can word this intent better than I did above, I would like to
| hear from you.  Thanks.
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish
the job. :-)  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
[email-masked]
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:41:32 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 5Jan45

January 5, 1945
D-Day +213

-Germans continue to use infiltration tactics against II Corps front.

-In the VIII Corps area, the 101st Airborne Div continues the defense of
 bastogne with the 17th Airborne being strongly counterattacked.

-Little change in the XX Corps area.

-XIX TAC flew 191 sorties, directed primarily at marshalling yards and
 enemy airfields.

***********

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:47:03 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 6Jan45

January 6, 1945
D-Day +214

-XIX TAC was socked in. Only 4 enemy planes were spotted over the entire
 3rd Army area.

-87th Inf Div clears Tellet, 8 miles West of bastogne. The 28th Inf Div
 patrols the sector along the river Meuse.

-G-2 identifies that the enemy will most likely pull out and assume a
 defensive posture on the high ground to the North and East of Houffalize.

-Twelfth Army Group indicated that 3rd Army would recieve about 35% of cold
 weather clothing available in the ETO.

-Chairman of the War Manpower Commission, Paul McNutt visits 3rd Army HQ
 and is escorted to supply stations to observe shortages in the area of
 Nancy. Vice Chair for Labor Production, Maury Maverick accompanies.

*************

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:08:22 -0600
From:    "Margaret J. McCormick" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ? resources

I have been lurking for several months on this list - and now, even I am
fascinated by this War and I am impressed by the expertise expressed here
- all the while I am trying to figure out - just who you all are...

As a high school librarian I am trying to link students with resources,
so that they might have some lively sense of WWII.  I find much of what
you write very moving - and memories of my childhood are invoked as I
recall headlines that screamed to all of us, even as children.

My students were not even born during the Vietnam War...

With consideration of limitations of budget - if you could recommend
several "best sources" of information about WWII for students "lest they
forget" - what would you want to see students read?
        - what are the most critical concepts you would wish them to
understand?
        - would you be willing to communicate with them to answer any
questions that they might have?  - and, if so, in what area is your
expertise or special interest?

margaret                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:43:38 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: West Palm Beach AFB

Request any information anyone has on the West Palm Beach
AFB during the second world War. This would include aircaft and units assigned
as well as affiliated training areas and bomb targets. please reply directly
to me unless you think it would be of interest to the net. Thanks

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge                                                               *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosives Safety (USATCES)                 *
* Explosives Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                 *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP-FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-6009  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 09:20:35 -0800
From:    David Alvarez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Codebreaking and the Neutrals

Research into wartime cryptology has focused on the successes and
failures of Britain, Germany, Japan, and the U.S..  There seems to be
little attention to the impact of the code war on the neutral powers.
Does anyone know anything about code-making and code-breaking as it
impacted Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and Turkey?

I have run across a reference in the British archives to the use of
"one-time pads" by the British legation to the Vatican in the fall of
1943.  When did the British Foreign Office begin using one-time pads?

David Alvarez

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:59:29 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gudmundar's Airlifted Pocket in Russia

For: Gudmundar Helgason

Regarding your proposed airlifted operation, I'd like some additional
information before I start throwing out too many suggestions.  So far all
I'm sure of is you wish to land a force of several thousand SS troops
somewhere behind Soviet lines & supply them by air.  This combat group is
to be equipped with the best possible weapons available (including 2cm
Flak & hopefully 8.8cm Pak) for the time depicted, which I believe you
said to be spring of 1943.

Hokay---

(1)  Is this force to be brought in by air, or are we talking about a
ground unit stranded behind the lines during some front collapse?

(2) Just how far behind the lines are you envisioning?  It'll make a lot
of difference what types of transport aircraft (and their loads) are to
be used depending on whether we're talking a few dozen or a few hundred
miles of flight distance from base to field.

(3) Why are they there?  Is this a special commando-type raid with a
specific purpose (and therefore specialised weapons, etc) or are we
talking more along the lines of dropping a combat group to see how much
havoc they can wreak?

If you can fill me in with some of these details I can do some more
accurate projections.  My shoot-from-the-hip response is to use a flight
of Me 321 Gigant GLIDERS (with Bf 110 or He 111 Zwilling tows) for the
initial landing and then maintain support flights with Ar 232s & Ju 52s,
but I'll wait until you can fill me in before going further.

As for 8.8cm Pak 43s & North Africa, if memory serves, none were sent
because none existed at the time.  The Afrika Korps would've started
off with the standard issue antitank weapons of its time, i.e. 3.7cm
"doorknockers", some 2.8cm taperbores, and a few 5cm Pak 38s.  As the
need for more powerful AT guns arose, heavier guns were supplied--
7.5cm & some 7.62cm (ex-Russian) -- and available 8.8cm Flaks were
also locally appropriated for AT use.  Doubtless if they'd have held
on long enough in Tunisia, 8.8cm Pak 43s might have been shipped to
them, but I don't think any reached them historically.

Awaiting your reply,

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 14:19:13 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: I'm back but...

        I am back in the saddle again, but I haven't caught up on all
of my reading.  I apologize for the NORTH.POLE fiasco but I had removed
Santa et al from the list before I left.  Apparently, old messages were
bouncing around the Internet ether.  I thank Alan for filling in during
my absence.  There are a few requests for assistance and I will get to
them as soon as I can.  If a response isn't received by Friday, please
feel free to resend it since it may have fallen on the floor the first
time.

        I can't wait to get all caught up and get some free time so I
can share tidbits from the book, _The Italian Navy in World War II_,
which I am currently reading.  Many of the mainstream ideas concerning
the Italians are rebutted with an excruciating amount of data from
primary sources.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 15:26:07 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

>With consideration of limitations of budget - if you could recommend
>several "best sources" of information about WWII for students "lest they
>forget" - what would you want to see students read?
>        - what are the most critical concepts you would wish them to
>understand?

Hi Margaret,

This may turn your original question on a slight tangent, but I think it may be
important to your ultimate goal as well.

When I was in the eighth grade, I was wandering around my high school library
(in SMALL school systems, eighth grade IS in the high school!) and I happened
upon a book called "Up Periscope!" which if I correctly recall (no guarantees)
may have been written by Martin Caiden?  I almost hate to say that, since I
don't know for sure.  The eighth grade was a long time ago.

Anyway, to my point:  This is a story about a submarine that takes a Navy Lt.
(jg) on a secret mission to a Japanese held island in the Pacific to sneak
ashore and steal a code book.  It was later made into a movie by the same name.
It was exciting, thrilling, full of suspense, and went a long way towards
satisfying my natural curiosity about how complex things work (in this case a
submarine).  To the best of my knowledge, it is entirely a work of fiction.

This book started my fascination with submarines and WWII in general.  Because
of it, I searched out better, bigger and more fact oriented material to read and
study.  I suppose the point I'd like to make is that I was FIRST entertained by
the subject, even though it was a work of fiction, and from that a genuine
interest developed.

I know there will be many references made to you of lots of great material.  The
most important thing is to catch their interest, and hopefully their own thirst
for information will follow.

Good Luck!

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 16:47:08 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

Dear Margaret,
        I thought I would respond to your post because being a former
 high school teacher, I became upset to learn that my students were
 clueless when it came to World War II. I had my one English class
 read Reid's Escape from Colditz (I may be spelling the title wrong)
 and then watch the movie The Great Escape (The one with Steve McQueen).
 The kids were reluctant to believe that men actually dug the tunnels
 to escape. We also read Auschwitz and Studs Terkel's series on WWII.

        Hope this helps.

                        Regards, Mary

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 22:10:26 +0000
From:    Tom Holloway <[email-masked]>
Subject: EDU: project for schools.

Many of you will have heard of the School Project called
MEMORIES OF 1944/45 which has been running since last
January.  It consists of a panel of Elders (listed below),
most of them available online (and the others are
interviewed as and when required).  We respond to questions
put to us by school-children about our lives during those
violent years.  The project looks at WW2 from the civilian
perspective, and we ask that stories about combat and the
'technology of war' aren't submitted.

We are now reaching the last six months of World War Two,
and we invite you to join our list and share some of the
exchanges with us.  You may from time to time want to put in
some words of your own and they will be very welcome - but
not too long, and PLEASE remember that our aim is to put the
CIVILIAN view, rather than the view of combattants.

If you would like the FAQ document please write to me, OR it
will be sent when you subscribe to [email-masked]
(sub memories <firstname lastname>).  Previous exchanges are
all available by anonymous ftp from ftp.warwick.ac.uk in the
directory /pub/chatback (filenames begin with '1944')

+----------------------------------+
! Tom Holloway ---- +44 926 888333 !
! The Chatback Educational Trust   !
! Home:-926-420204 Fax:-926-435534 !
! Email: [email-masked]  !
+----------------------------------+

=========================================================

 THE LAND GIRL    - from University to hard labour as a Land
                    Girl on a farm

 THE BERLIN SCHOOLBOY  - who survived the 1,000-bomber raids

 THE LONDON SCHOOLBOY - living through the blitz and the doodle-bugs

 THE VIENNA SCHOOLGIRL - coping with discrimination under the
                         Nazi regime

 THE POLISH EXILE - shipped in a cattletruck as a slave labourer

 THE SURVIVOR - living through the hell of 4 years of Auschwitz

 THE NURSE - caring for soldiers from USA, England and Germany

 THE AMERICAN SOLDIER - in England, waiting to go to war

 THE CROATIAN SOLDIER - forced to fight for the Nazis, who
                    survived the 'Croation Death March'

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 18:29:17 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: REVISIONISM, AGAIN

Thanks, Mike, for clearing the air on this before all the members of the list
got up in arms. There was enough sturm und drang over the Enola Gay exhibit,
which I know is now in much better shape script/photowise. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:51:46 +0001
From:    Ira H Krakow <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Martyred Villages"

   Is there a list of villages that were destroyed by the Nazis in
response to partisan attacks?  I just came back from Greece and
visited Kalavrita (on the road from Athens to Patras).  The Nazis
executed about 1500 males in one day in reprisal for partisan attacks.
The guidebook I used mentioned an "Association of Martyred Villages".

   I know of two other "martyred villages".  One is Oradour-sur-Glane,
near Limoges, France.  On June 10, 1944, the Nazis burned the town.
I visited the site - the effect is chilling because the village was
preserved (without the bodies) exactly as it was after the burning.
There is a cemetery for the martyrs next to the village.  The beginning
of the Olivier World At War series starts with a haunting description
of the massacre.   The other, or course, is Lidice, in the Czech Republic.
This village was razed in retaliation for the murder of Reynhard Heydrich.

   Are there any others?

Ira Krakow
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 19:44:49 -0500
From:    Thoams Wildenberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Type 93 Gyo/Fuel of??

I thought the long this torpedo used oxygen?  Did you mean enriched with O2?
Was the air/salt water used to generate steam?  I'd like to see a
technical description if one has ever been written in Englisht

Tom Wildenberg

On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, John DeVirgilio wrote:

> Carl W.,
>
> The type 93 torpedo had a range far greater than allied ship launch torps.
> The reason for the high speed and long range was the special torpedo engine
> that the Japanese constructed.  This engine mixed enriched air and salt
> water.  The salt water engine had a limited life of two runs.  One test
> run, after which it needed extensive cleaning and one live war run.
>
> Your questions:
>
> Why - this weapon had unparalleled range and hitting power.
>
> Who named this weapon?   Interestingly, in a conversation with the late
> Capt. Roger Pineau, several years ago, he asked me the same question.  I
> was stumped and could not give him an answer.  He chuckled and said it
> was the late great Samuel Eliot Morison who first called the Japanese type
> 93 gyorai the "long Lance".  Pineau recalled working one night with Morrison
> on a history project just after(?) the war when Morison stated that a
> special name is needed for this incredible torpedo.  Whalla! the "LONG
> LANCE".
>
>
> Aloha,
>
> John F. De Virgilio
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 19:52:38 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

Dear Margaret,

I am always surprised- though perhaps I shouldn't be- by the depth of
response of girls 10-15 to THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK, but you probably
have this listed already. Walter Lord's books, especially on Pearl
Harbor and the Battle of Midway, combine excellent writing with
accuracy. William L. Shirer's 3 volume memoir and his BERLIN DIARY,
especially the latter, give a real sense of the Nazis. Both Lord and
Shirer are written in a style that should interest teenagers who can
be reached, but in no way play down to them- the books are for adults.
Let me also put in a plug for anything by George Orwell, although
his most pertinent work is on the 1930s. DOWN AND OUT IN PARIS AND LONDON
and THE ROAD TO WIGAN PIER will help to explain the social alienation
that turned people from democratic solutions, and HOMAGE TO CATALONIA
may be the greatest war memoir of the century, in addition to being
a solid introduction to the incredibly complex politics of the Spanish          Civil War. DOWN AND OUT and WIGAN PIER may have special relevance in
our own uncertain economic times. Anything by Orwell is easy to read
and if they pick up some of his style and clarity of thought, so much           the better. All of these books are in paperback or should be available
second hand at under $15, and perhaps much less.

Videos may reach these kids better than books. The 26 episodes of
VICTORY AT SEA are somewhat dated factually, and have a bias, but
no documentary has ever been more stirringly written. On the other
hand, I have to admit that some teens will find it hokey. Among
films that could be rented are EUROPA, EUROPA- a reportedly true
story of a Jewish teenager who through chance winds up fighting
for the Nazis to save himself. I've always given high marks to the
movie CABARET, but this has subthemes an educator may want to avoid.
The recent SWING KIDS, about youthful Jazz fans in Nazi Germany,
was a joke to me, but may be something more to your students.

In all, I agree with Theron Miller about reaching them first.
They will learn the issues if they are interested, and you can't
force feed them content that will stick if they are not. If it is
of value, I would suggest that you first find out their individual
interests, then key these back to the war through this list and
other on-line sources.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:11:39 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

Margaret McCormick...
        One "single best" reference work I can recommend is:

                SECOND WORLD WAR

                by Martin Gilbert

                Wiedenfield & Nicholson, London, 1989
                Stoddart Publishers, Toronto, 1989.

Best Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 17:21:00 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

Though the movie THE GREAT ESCAPE is very entertaining, it is seriously
inaccurate and distorted because of the producers' comic-book interpretation
of the events in order to make it more "entertaining".

However, the book on which the movie is very loosly based is very accurate.

A less melodramatic but far more acccurate movie depicting tunnel escaping
is THE WOODEN HORSE.

Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:41:56 -0500
From:    Thoams Wildenberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: V-2 Book Review

For those who don't get the NY Times, the following book was
written by Richard J. Evan in the Book Review Section of January 1,
1995.
Sounds good to me so I thought I would pass it along to those interested:

"In The Rocket and the Reich, an absorbing new book, Micahel J. Neufeld,
who is curator of World War II history at the National Air And Space
Museum of the Smithsonian Instiutioin in Washington, uses thorough
research into archives of the German rocketry establishment at
Peenemunde, together with a wide range of other sources, to provide a
full account of the V-2 and other programs pursued there.  In the course
of doing so, he effectively demolishes the accounts given in what he
rightly calls the 'dishonest' and 'self-serving' memoirs of many of those
involved, from rocket scientist Wernher von Braun to Hitler's wartime
Armaments Minister, Albert Speer.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:37:06 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

To Margaret and All,... The _World at War_ has some remarkable footage
and some interesting (I'm being benign) slants imposed by Sir Olivier. Would
this Still be considered fit for a historic perspective given the bias.
(especially for secondary education ???)

-Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 21:03:20 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <[email-masked]>
Subject: Apologies/Help

First I want to apologize for this procedure, but might someone refresh my
fading memory.  I would like to temporarily halt receiving messages for a
number of days.  Due to a main frame challenge, my saved messages are in a mess
and I cannot "decipher" the appropriate method to stop and restart the service.
My many thanks
Carlos Rivera
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 21:39:53 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-2 Book Review

On Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:41:56 -0500 Thoams Wildenberg said:
>For those who don't get the NY Times, the following book was
>written by Richard J. Evan in the Book Review Section of January 1,
>1995.
>Sounds good to me so I thought I would pass it along to those interested:
>
>"In The Rocket and the Reich, an absorbing new book, Micahel J. Neufeld,
>who is curator of World War II history at the National Air And Space
>Museum of the Smithsonian Instiutioin in Washington, uses thorough
>research into archives of the German rocketry establishment at
>Peenemunde, together with a wide range of other sources, to provide a
>full account of the V-2 and other programs pursued there.  In the course
>of doing so, he effectively demolishes the accounts given in what he
>rightly calls the 'dishonest' and 'self-serving' memoirs of many of those
>involved, from rocket scientist Wernher von Braun to Hitler's wartime
>Armaments Minister, Albert Speer.

I'm not sure I'll be able to get the book, so can you do me a favor and
tell me what was said about Speer?  I am particularly interested because
I have just finished reading his "Inside the Third Reich".  Anyone have
any comments about that?  TIA

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 21:41:47 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

Some of the responses have said that "Victory at Sea" and many other video
sources of WWII are slighted and/or innaccurate.  I do not think that this
is particularly important given the age of the students and the fact that
many of these students might take an interest to WWII but probably won't
study it with a passion.  As someone said (sorry, I forgot who), getting
the students' interest is most important.  If this requires a fib here
and there, those who pursue the subject will find the less biased
 interpretations.  I do not think that the disillusionment of their
studies will discourage their interest; on the contrary it should give
them pride that they discovered the "truth" where others had lied.  This,
at least, is how I feel when I find that historians and the media were
wrong about something.
    When I studied WWII in high school, and it wasn't till my senior year,
we focused on Europe (that was the name of the course) and more the causes
of the war than the actual pursuit of it.  This is the best way to approach
the study of WWII, I think; to focus on the pre-war events rather than
the battles.  In this, I'd recommend William L. Shirer's Rise and Fall of
the Third Reich.  Most of the chapters are very well written.  If you go
into Holocaust studies (which is probably a necessity), show them the
German movie (with English subtitles) "Wansee Conference".  This gives
a very good idea of how the Germans were able to institute the Final
Solution.  It is also more or less true.
    How old are these students?  Age can make a great difference.  Also,
the academic level can make a difference too.  Good luck - I'm glad
someone plans to teach WWII before college.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 22:44:30 EST
From:    "Western Michigan: Befuddled State." <[email-masked]>
Subject: ? resources

Margaret, et al...

About 10-15 years ago I happened to be in our college library, near
the circulation desk when a student came in with an assignment heavy
on her head.  She asked the desk clerk to recommend a book on World
War II, since she had to write a paper on "it."

I didn't stick around for the response, but my first inclination
would have been to drag her (gently, not by the ear) to the rack of
encyclopedias for a (very) broad overview of the war in general, then
would have advised her to pick a topic from that reading.  She could
have started with a general area (battles, politics, homefront, etc)
and then narrowed it down specifically.

Might I suggest this for your student?  I realize that WW-II is
probably one segment of a year (or two term) history course, so a
really detailed analysis might not work out for your class.

There are a number of excellent videos available, and I second the
notion of the value of Victory At Sea and World At War.  With each
being in bite-sized pieces, you can pick and choose and stimulate
interest that way.  You might also try the feature length Victory At
Sea movie, a compressed (90 min) version of the 13 hour full series.
Of course, this series/movie gives the POV of Naval/Naval Aviaton
power in the waging of the War, but worth it anyway.  (I still find
Richard Roger's music stirring, and very well done!)

ALSO!  Check with people on the broadcast side for programs they
might have for loan to schools:  The Discovery Channel, The History
Channel (new this month??) and PBS services.  (and college libraries)

One other point of view you might consider:  Kids today are into
music in a big way, so you might think about doing up a presentation
of tunes from that era that talked about the war.

Good luck!

(For point of reference:  My Dad was in the Eighth Air Force, my step
dad was in the Philippines, and my son is in school now studying to
be a history teacher.)

Bruce.

B. L. Werner
Big Rapids, Michigan
Where nothing is big or rapid.
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Jan 1995 23:14:03 -0500
From:    Thomas Pike <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? resources

One book I would strongly suggest for student's to read is Shirer's THE RISE
AND THE FALL OF THE THIRD REICH. The reading is very heavy, to be sure, but
gives a very good introduction into the horrors of World War II.

There are few good books re: the Wsetern Front which I am sure others can
suggest. All the best!
MILARCHIVE

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Jan 1995 to 4 Jan 1995
***********************************************