Subject: WWII-L Digest - 26 Jan 1995 to 27 Jan 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 00:01:07 -0500

There are 49 messages totalling 1503 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Decisions made X years ago (was A-bomb . . .)
  2. Admin:unsubbed?
  3. INF: USN Chronology 01-27-95
  4. ATOMIC DIPLOMACY
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 28-JAN-1945
  6. AAF Officers' uniform question
  7. Arizona at Pearl Harbor
  8. Capt. Beach and other writers.
  9. RAF markings (2)
 10. Fabric Ailerons (2)
 11. INF: Commandant at Auschwitz? (5)
 12. INF: Panama Canal
 13. Fabric surfaces (3)
 14. Rocket Fighter (4)
 15. Hurricane (2)
 16. What IF: Panama Canal? (Aichi M6A1 Seiran floatplane)
 17. WEAP: Battleships
 18. P-51s to Russia?
 19. <No subject given>
 20. uniforms for women in WWII (2)
 21. EXEBUG virus (fwd)
 22. Holzinger
 23. POWs (2)
 24. WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor (2)
 25. A-bomb, Should it have be...
 26. RAF operations
 27. Aichi A6M
 28. INF: Other daring Axis plans
 29. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 28Jan45
 30. Attempted officer's coup to prevent Japanese surrender
 31. Farewell BBs
 32. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 29Jan45
 33. Lend-Lease Act
 34. Japanese Zero planes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 23:10:07 -0600
From:    Chuck Johnson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Decisions made X years ago (was A-bomb . . .)

>
> After the mass cliff-side suicides of Okinawan (Japanese) civilians during
> the taking of Oki, were numbers of possible suicides in Japan ever proposed
> for the homeland invasion?  A blockade scenarion is often suggested in lieu
> of the bomb, how many civilians would have starved to death rather than give
> up?  Are we the only country brow beating itself over decisions made 50 years
> ago?
>
  We're still brow beating ourselves over decisions made hundreds of years
  ago, ie, slavery and its after-effects.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:32:33 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Admin:unsubbed?

Have I been deleted from the list again or has there just been no WWII
traffic today or yesterday on the list?

Help!  What's going on...

Jon Stevens - [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 01-27-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
01/27 Sat.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Minesweeper NO. 102, by submarine BERGALL (SS-320), Java
              Sea,
              08 d. 37'S., 115 d. 39'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 07:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: ATOMIC DIPLOMACY

Has anyone read ATOMIC DIPLOMACY by Gar Alperovitz?

Any comments?

TIA.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 07:38:28 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 28-JAN-1945

On 28-JAN-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Before dawn, the U.S. 1st Army opens the final drive toward
the West Wall and Euskirchen.  The 1st Division is attacking on the north
flank; while the 82nd Airborne Division is attacking on the south flank.
The 1st Division takes Valender, Heppenbach, Hepscheid and Richelbusch. The
82nd Airborne captures Herresbach. The 7th Armoured Division concludes its
drive on St Vith. In the 3rd Army sector, most of the VIII Corps has
reached the Our River. The 90th Division captures Weweler and Stoubach. The
5th Division continues to clear the west bank of the Our and secures
Putscheid.

Eastern Front - The 1st Baltic Front takes Memel and the Soviet conquest of
Lithuania is complete. The Russians close the ring around Koenigsberg and
compress the German pocket in the central part of East Prussia with the
capture of Bischofsburg and Sensburg. Thrusting toward Germany on a broad
front, the Red Army takes the Polish border cities of Sepolno, Czarnkow
and Leszno and across the Silesian border, Guhrau. To the south, the 1st
Ukraine Front completes the capture of major industrial cities along the
border of Upper Silesia and Poland, taking Beuthen in Silesia and Katowice
in Poland. In the Carpathians, the 4th Ukraine Front drives to Poprad.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, elements of the 37th Division attack
west from the Culayo area toward Clark Field and Ft. Stotsenburg. In I
Corps Area, San Manuel is cleared. On Mindoro, the 19th Infantry is
concentrated in the San Jose area, having completed offensive operations on
Mindoro.

Burma - The first convoy from Ledo resumes its journey toward Kunming,
crossing the border of China. Ceremonies are held at Mu-se and Chiang
Kai-shek renames the road Stilwell Road.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 06:44:50 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: AAF Officers' uniform question

Responding to Tim Scherrer ;

Tim-meister ;

I got my crusher/service visor cap through Peterson of Springfield, VA.
He charged me ca. $78 for my cap and it would have been $10 more had I wanted
the eagle device with it.

Grrrrreat color match, material match and texture match to my WWII class-A
officer's uniform!

I looked in a reference work, and I believe it may be what is known as
"elastique."

The visor is sooooo bendable and the construction is sooooo nice, with the
back strap and all other leather stuff in russet brown.

I even scrutinized originals from WWII fotos with a loop, up close and the
stitching is even correct.

The color is OD (dark shade), as my class-A winter service jacket is.
Also nice is the commemorative illustration inside with an US eagle emblem
and a 1941-1945 -- 1991-1945 commemeration indicated.

Makes my other repro. look like a toy in comparison of quality and correctness.

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:33:03 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Arizona at Pearl Harbor

>Can anyone identify the photographer who filmed the explosion of the
>forward magazine on the USS Arizona during the attack on Pearl Harbor?
>Why was he filming the Arizona at that particular moment during the
>attack?  Any information or sources would be appreciated.

The (what I consider to be the) famous film of the Arizona being blown out
of the water by aerial bombs was shot by a doctor from shore if I recall
properly.  The doctor just happened to be panning across the bay when the
Arizona's magazine was struck.  Maybe Jim Adams could be of assistance in
this question.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 07:38:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Capt. Beach and other writers.

Hello, Jim and Steve!

Would highly recommend "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sager. That was
one I couldn't put down. Written by a former member of the
Grossdeutschland division. He was an enlisted man from Alsace who
joined this unit and fought with it throughout the Russian campaign.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:38:22 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF markings

>
>I hope he isn't :-). It was actually a tubular metal construction, covered
>with fabric. On the very first Hurricanes, the wing was also covered with
>fabric.
>
>Emmanuel Gustin

I thought that the Hurricanes fuselage was metal skinned arround the
engine, a wooden "plywood-like" material arround the cockpit, and fabric
covered aft of the cockpit.  Am I mistaken?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:45:29 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fabric Ailerons

One of the major differences between the Spitfire Mk II and the Mk V, aside
from the engine and armament, was the ailerons on the Mk V were metal covered
as opposed to the fabric of the Mk II.  609 Squadron (West Riding) found that
the metal ailerons would fit and improve the performance of their Mk IIs and
did a little procurement. About a year later, the bill came in and the
commander, JE Johnson, was asked 'On who's responsibility was this work
performed?' to which Johnson replied he was just a Flight Leftenant at the time
of the modification and they really should inquire of the Wing Leader, Douglas
Bader (then a German PoW), or the squadron commander, Billy Burton (then in
North Africa leading a wing in the Desert Air Force). He didn't hear another
word about the matter!

On personal narratives about WW2:
        Wing Leader, JE Johnson (his 'Full Circle' is also superb)
        Night Fighter, Jimmy Rawnsley
        The Other Side of Time, Bredan Phibbs
        War Below Zero, Berndt Balchen
        Night Action, (I forget the author)
        Submarine Commander, Ben Bryant
        Will We Not Fear?, (I forget the author)
        For God, Country and the Hell of It, (I forget the author)
        PoW, again I forget the author, loaned the book to an uncle who had
been a PoW and he 'forgot' to return it. Written by             an RN Lt
Commander who was captured in the Adriatic in 1942 running supplies to the Jugs.
        Island of Terrible Friends, (I forget the author)

My wife cleaned up my library a while back which is why I have listed so many
without author's names, they're all boxed up and in the barn. 'I wanted to make
room for more books!!'

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:58:55 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Commandant at Auschwitz?

The combination of the anniversery of Auschwitz' liberation and the
discussion of Speer reminded me of one point I have been curious about.
I have been told that Hoess wrote his memoirs while in a Polish prison.
I know Speer did much (all?) of his writing in prison and then smuggled it
out.  How did Hoess get his writing out?  It seems difficult to believe
that the Communists were all that willing to give him the opportunity
but who knows?
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:59:37 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF markings

On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Ron Babuka wrote:

> I thought that the Hurricanes fuselage was metal skinned arround the
> engine, a wooden "plywood-like" material arround the cockpit, and fabric
> covered aft of the cockpit.  Am I mistaken?

We all seem to be partly mistaken :-). I verified it yesterday: the aft
fuselage of the Hurricane had a steel tubular load-carrying structure,
with wooden formers and stringers, and covered with fabric. The engine
parts were indeed skinned with metal. Plywood around the cockpit... I don't
know.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:02:40 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fabric Ailerons

Fabric ailerons had their disadvantages at high speed. The XP-47B
prototype of the Thunderbolt had fabric covered control surfaces; it was
lost after the fabric of the ailerons tore off in a dive. All P-47B
production aircraft had metal covered ailerons. Accidents continued, and
on the P-47C the tail surfaces were also covered in metal. That cured the
problem.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:37:23 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Panama Canal

        The January issue of World War II magazine has a perspective
piece on Al Raymond who was a well-known trumpet player and band
leader before the war.  The article details his role in developing
regimental bands and during the early part of the war, he was stationed
in Panama with the 5th Infantry Regiment.  The article mentions an
aborted Japanese attack on the Panama Canal in early 1942 (no specific
date is given).

        "We were rousted out at 3 AM to defend our camp.  Japanese
planes were reported off the west coast.  The only weapons carried
by band members were .45s with three rounds of ammunition.  A few
barrage balloons were about our only defense against airstrikes.
But, for some unknown reason, when the enemy planes were only a mile
or two from the coast, they turned around and headed back out to sea.
We were lucky.  The Japanese could have easily destroyed the canal,
or even captured it with an invasion force.

        "A few days later, we were inundated with barrage balloons,
field artillery, and every air-defense weapon available.  The Japanese
had their chance to wipe us out and could have easily accomplished
the task.  They never attempted another attack on the canal."

        This sounds as if there really was an attempted raid, rather
than rumors working on frazzled nerves.  Can anyone add more detail?
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I'm not interested in defenders, I'm interested in hotels, OK?  Hey,
look, you have to think of us as tourists.  I don't want any military
information, I just want to know which hotel is the most comfortable.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:46:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fabric surfaces

I remember reading somewhere (perhaps the Brits going after the BISMARCK)
that fabric covered aircraft, e.g., the Fairey Swordfish, have an
advantage in that AA fire may make a nice hole in the fabric but can make
a real mess out of metal.  Has anyone heard similar tales?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:43:56 EST
From:    YES <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

No...It is Rocket Fighter and is about the Komet...BTW someone else had
included it in their posting last night also Rudel in Stuka Pilot, someone
commented "if 65% is true then he must have been one of the greatest" or
something to that effect... I beleive he was awarded the Knights Cross with
diamonds - one of only about 24 but check me on that...If so I'd tend to
beleive the 65%.

                                          Paul Gregor

                                          Kent State

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:00:40 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hurricane

Emmanuel Gustin's comment when I mistakenly claimed a wooden construction
for the rear fuselage of the Hurricane:

>I hope he isn't :-). It was actually a tubular metal construction, covered
>with fabric. On the very first Hurricanes, the wing was also covered with
>fabric.

Then from Ron Babuka:

>I thought that the Hurricanes fuselage was metal skinned around the
>engine, a wooden "plywood-like" material arround the cockpit, and fabric
>covered aft of the cockpit.  Am I mistaken?

What can I say but "oops"?  It's what I get for working without a net.
I was rambling along on memory only.

In October 1993, I got the chance to photograph and sit in the cockpit
of the Hurricane at Wright Pat.  The cockpit interior side walls were
painted plywood, but I don't know if that is strictly accurate or not.
The aircraft's cockpit is not normally open for inspection, and so
the restoration may not be complete or accurate in that regard.  It did
*look* right though, with all the assorted plumbing overlaying the
plywood.  The wood grain is visible in the photographs, and I remember
being amazed when I first saw it.  If somebody is going to be shooting
at me, I'd have wanted something more substantial surrounding me.

The opportunity to view the cockpit came at an open house/model contest.
Contestants were allowed back in the museum after closing, and a number
of aircraft were opened up.  I got nice cockpit photos of their P-35,
P-36, Spitfire XI, B-24D, and F-117 as well.  Everyone was allowed to
climb into the cockpits of all but the Spitfire.  The Spit's canopy
and side door were opened and a short ladder was positioned at the
trailing edge of the wing, but a sign asked that no one try to sit in
the cockpit as it was too small and too fragile for most people!

Dennis E. Saprks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:15:28 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What IF: Panama Canal? (Aichi M6A1 Seiran floatplane)

[following is transcribed from William Green's WAR PLANES OF THE SECOND
WORLD WAR, VOLUME SIX: FLOAT PLANES  Doubleday, 1968, c1962]

     Shortly before the beginning of the Pacific War, plans were prepared
for the construction of eighteen extremely large I-400 class submarines
which, each displacing 4,500 tons, were to have a cruising radius of
41,575 nautical miles at fourteen knots.  Each I-400 class submarine was
to embody a cylindrical watertight hanger capable of accommodating two
(later increased to three) attack aircraft for surprise attacks on
strategic targets far outside the normal radius of action of Japanese
naval aircraft.  The aircraft were to be launched from the submarines by
catapult and after completing their mission were to land near the
submarines which would then take off the crews, the aircraft themselves
being abandoned.

     A 17-Shi specification for a suitable aircraft was prepared by the
Japanese Navy and issued to Aichi, the utmost secrecy being observed.
Aichi's design team, headed by Norio Ozaki who was assisted by Morishige
Mori and Yasushiro Ozawa, collaborated extremely closely with the
Japanese Navy, and the special attack aircraft was designated M6A1
Seiran (Mountain Haze).  Initially, the Seiran was considered purely as a
catapult-launched aircraft without an undercarriage, but this concept
changed as design work progressed, detachable floats being introduced.
Simultaneously, a training variant with a retractable undercarriage was
evolved, the M6A1-K Seiran-Kai, but later this version was allocated a
new popular name, being known as the Nanzan (Southern Mountain), this
name also being applied to the catapult-launched undercarriage-less version.

     The design of the M6A1 was initiated in June 1942, the aircraft
being of all-metal construction and the wings swivelling on the rear spar
at the roots to lie flat along the fuselage sides for stowage in the
submarines's hanger.  The tip of the rudder folded to starboard and the
horizontal tail surfaces folded downwards at roughly quarter-span.  The
wings were extended hydraulically, and it took four trained personnel
approximately six minutes to prepare the aircraft for launching from the
moment the power-driven hanger doors were opened.  The first prototype
M6A1 was completed in November 1943, this being powered by a 1,400 hp
Aichi Atsuta 21 liquid-cooled engine, and seven further prototypes were
built, these being similarly powered.  The production models differed
from the prototypes principally in having the Atsuta 32 engine which,
offering a similar maximum output for take-off, gave 1,340 hp at 5,580 ft
as compared with 1,250 hp from the earlier power plant.

     Numerous difficulties were being encountered in the construction of
the I-400 submarines while the M6A1 was under development, and as a
result of the delay several 3,600 ton I-13 class submarines were
converted to carry two M6A1s each, and together with ten Seiran
floatplanes four converted I-13 class submarines equipped the 1st
Submarine Flotilla early in 1945.  From the onset of development of the
M6A1 the Japanese Navy had nurtured the idea of employing this aircraft
for an attack on the Panama Canal with the aim of blocking this vital
supply artery.  The plan called for the launching of the M6A1s, each
carrying a 1,760 lb bomb, from the submarines cruising within range of
the Canal.  The crews that were to undertake the attack underwent
intensive training, using large-scale models of the canal zone, but by
the time this daring attack was virtually ready for launching, the
Pacific War was drawing to a close and the target of the attack was
changed to the Uliti Atoll.  This operation was scheduled to take place
in July 1945, the earliest that the 1st Submarine Flotilla could be
readied for the attack, but the before the sortie could be attempted the
Japanese government had capitulated.

     A total of twenty production M6A1 aircraft was completed during
1944-45, a few of these having retractable wheel undercarriages as M6A1-K
Nanzans for training and the remainder having provision for detachable
floats.

TYPE: two-seat attack bomber (detachable) twin-float seaplane

POWER PLANT: one 1,400 hp Aichi Atsuta 32 twelve-cylinder inverted-Vee
liquid-cooled engine

ARMAMENT: one 12.7mm machine gun and two 550 lb bombs or one 1,760 lb bomb

PERFORMANCE: maximum speed 295 mph at 17,060 ft ; economical cruising
speed of 184 mph at 9,840 ft ; time to 9,840 ft, 5 min 48 sec ; service
ceiling, 32,480 ft ; range, 739 miles

WEIGHTS:  empty, 7,412 lbs ; normal loaded, 93,70 lbs ; maximum 10,803 lbs

DIMENSIONS: span, 40 ft 2 2/3 in ; length, 38 ft 2 1/4 in; height, 15ft
0 1/3 in ; wing area, 290.626 sq ft

[Note: neither the Aichi M6A1 nor any of the I-400 class submarines never,
ever, EVER even THOUGHT of serving in ANY capacity with the Royal
Romanian Navy...]

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:39:55 CST
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

John E. Kollar Thu, 26 Jan 1995 wrote:

>... but because of steel shortages and emphasis to
>shift buildingto carriers/destroyers/subs they were slowed in construction
>so were not finished as quickly as they would have been if they had stayed
>on schedule ...

Guys, for what its worth the current issue of WWII mag (March 1995) has
a related article. The article is about landing craft development and
construction (LSTs & LCTs).  Pp. 62 the article reads,  "Realizing the
urgent need for such vessels, President Roosevelt ordered the Navy and
the War Production Board to accelerate the building of the landing ship
even at the expense of much-needed destroyers and destroyer escorts. At
the president's urging, Congress authorized emergency construction of the
LST(2)s and put them under the control of the First Landing Craft program.
The high priority placed on building these ships is reflected in the fact
that, in at least one case, an aircraft carrier keel, already laid, was
removed to make room for the keels of several LSTs."

I don't know what the pecking order for shipbuilding resources was
but apparently Battleship construction was placed at a much much lower
priority.  Maybe they figured they had enough to do the job with those
already in commission plus those nearing completion.

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

PS. Thanks Jim Irwin for the info about your dad and the Panama Canal.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:12:06 MST
From:    Eric Pass <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-51s to Russia?

Thanks for responding John, it was I who posed the original question.
I'll see if I can find the book you recommended.  Looks like the US
exported their least-advanced technologies.  The 55 P-47s look
outof-place any special footnotes about them?

Eric ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:13:10 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Commandant at Auschwitz?

        About ten years ago my mother visited Auschwitz, and brought me back a
souvenir, which consisted of a book containing Hoess' work ("Auschwitz
Commandant"), the diary of a Doctor Kremer who assisted in the selections and
"special actions," and a third narrative compiled from testimony of one of the
guards (name escapes me) who was assigned to the block where prisoner
interrogations (i.e., torture) were carried on, not only for inmates of the
Auschwitz/Birkenau complex but also unfortunates rounded up by the Gestapo
court in Katowice.  These were all published by the (Communist) Polish
government and sold at the book/souvenir area at the camp.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:25:39 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

        To Paul Gregor: I posted the listing with "Stuka Pilot," and I too
tend to believe the majority of it.  Although there is some question as to
whether Rudel can actually claim the bomb hit on the battleship MARAT in Sept
'41 (its been suggested he was credited due to his "celebrity" status), or how
exact his total of over 500 Russian tanks destroyed might be, I still think the
mere fact of flying some 2,530 combat missions during the war (and most of
these, I would think, can be verified, since the Germans kept pretty scrupulous
records of such things) by itself would qualify him.  Not to mention little
extras like returning to combat after getting a leg blown off by flak, so soon
that the stump still bled after most flights.  Certainly the effectiveness of
his "Immelman Geschwader" was recognized by both sides in the east, and that
unit served as a flying fire brigade all over the front from 1943-45.  Erich
Hartmann, the top-scoring ace of the war (and recorded history thus far), was
saved from becoming a POW or worse, after one of the 16 or 17 times he was shot
down, when the Russian motor column his captors were taking him to the rear in
was attacked by Rudel's Stukas.  Hartmann used the confusion to jump from the
truck he was in and escape (he had earlier lulled the Soviets' suspicions by
pretending to have internal injuries, mainly in order to avoid a beating).
        BTW, though, Rudel said in the book that after the war when he was in
British custody the officers who interrogated him absolutely refused to believe
he could have survived so many combats in a plane as outdated and vulnerable to
enemy fighters as the Stuka (of course, in the final year of the war he did
switch to a ground attack model of the FW 190).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:32:52 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fabric surfaces

        To Jack McKillop:
        Not exactly confirmation of your post (about regular flak shrapnel and
bullets causing less damage to fabric than metal), but one of the (many)
armament problems of Italian aircraft early in WW2 was the fact that before the
war, anticipating the continued prevalent use of fabric covering, the Italians
had developed a special 12.7-mm "exploding bullet."   The theory was that the
explosive effect would rip bigger holes in fabric than regular ball or AP
rounds, which would simply pass through.   Problem was, of course, not only
that more nations were abandoning fabric covering (in '40-'41 this was still
not a huge problem as many fabric-covered aircraft were still flying), but that
such rounds were not very effective against metal airframes or armor plate.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 01:33:00 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: <No subject given>

How may I be put on this list?

 ERIC

   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:26:16 CST
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: uniforms for women in WWII

Dear all ;

I am involved in WWII reinactments.
Last evening, 2 of our girls asked me to make an 'all-call' on the list to
see if I can find leads to the procurement of BROWN military oxfords for
women like WACS.

size for one girl : 7 1/2 -- 8.
size for the other: 9 1/2 --10.

Any leads as far as finding repros. or orig.?

Would Peterson in Springfield, VA carry such stuff?

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 20:41:59 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
Subject: EXEBUG virus (fwd)

Forwarded message:
>From [email-masked] Fri Jan 27 19:51:36 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:52:07 -0500
From: [email-masked]
Message-Id: <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
        [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
        [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
        [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: EXEBUG virus

   Please be advised of the current spread of a new virus called EXEBUG3.
   This is a stealthy virus which has invaded our work place and which is
capable of infecting file servers as well as workstations and floppy disks.
   We have detected the virus on preFormatted disks from 3M company.  The
disks were shrink wrapped from our supplier and in the most severe instance a
ten pack was examined and found to be infected on five of the disks.
   ReFormatting the disk WILL NOT remove the virus.  The disk MUST be
discarded!
   There are a number of virus detection utilities on the market, but we are
informed that this one is VERY good at evading detection.  You are advised to
use several virus detection programs of your choice.
   THIS IS NOT A JOKE!  Please be careful, the virus has already caused a
great many problems here!
   Please spread the word.  Information is the best defense.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:56:22 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

Hello, Paul!

Will answer your question about the KC.

> No...It is Rocket Fighter and is about the Komet...BTW someone else had
> included it in their posting last night also Rudel in Stuka Pilot, someone
> commented "if 65% is true then he must have been one of the greatest" or
> something to that effect... I beleive he was awarded the Knights Cross with
> diamonds - one of only about 24 but check me on that...If so I'd tend to
> beleive the 65%.

    Hans-Ulrich Rudel was the only German to have been awarded the
Golden Oakleaves and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross. Rudel was one of
26 German soldiers so honored with this rare decoration of the
Knight's Cross with Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds. Werner Moelders
was the first, followed by Adolf Galland. Rommel was number 6,
Marseill was number 4 and so on.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:26:19 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Holzinger

Hello, Bill!

Here goes with some more info on Holzinger:

Orden und Ehrenzeichen:

21.10. 1939- Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse
7.5. 1940-   Eisernes Kreuz  I. Klasse

28.8. 1931-Oesterreichisches Turn und Sport Abzeichen: Bronze
22.12.1931- Deutsches Sportabzeichen, Bronze
26.12.1936- Oesterreichisches Kriegserinnerungs-Medaille
14.2. 1935-Militaerdienst II. Klasse
5.2. 1937-Ungarische Kriegserinnerung-Medaille
13.6. 1940-Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen
5.10. 1941-Verwundeten-Abzeichen
4.3. 1942-Finnisches Freiheitskreuz 3. Klasse
00.00. 1942-Medaille-Winterschlacht im Osten

More on Monday. Have a great weekend. Will be mailing you another box
of info.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:53:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Hello, David!

Will try to answer your question.

> Thanks for the clarification Terry, I was just speculating. Do you know
> why those from the Asian steppe were more likely to rape than other
> ethnic groups? Just wondering.

    From my understanding of the mentality of those from the Asian
steppe, is that sort of thing is what is expected in war. To the
victor go the spoils, if you will. You might also consider the
exhortations of Ilya Ehrenburg for the conquering Russians to take
the German women. This sort of propaganda received wide circulation
in the Red Army.

    Hope this helps, and thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:31:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor

Hello, Ed!

Thanks for the addendum, with which I agree. However, my view was
taken from the standpoint of the time, say the tank farms had been
destroyed. The scenario I put forth would have been the case. With
time, as you suggest, this eventuality would have not been
significantly considered. But at the time of the PH attack, there
were no Seabeas and the US was decidedly on the defensive. There
would have been serious consequences, logistics-wise, had those tank
farms been destroyed in the initial attack on PH.

Thanks again for your addendum.

Terry
>   The problem would have been temporary.  During the war the USN mastered
> the art of quickly erecting oil tanks at newly captured bases which had far
> less infrastructure and labor than Pearl.  The Seabees could typically
> complete a tank farm and big fuel dock within 3 months of a landng.
>   Furthermore, excavation of the the huge 6-million barrel Red Hill
> underground oil storage chambers at Pearl Harbor commenced in December 1940
> and was well along at the time of the attack.  Although the first oil wasn't
> stored there until September 1942, it seems plausible that work would have
> been accelerated if necessary.
>
> Ed Miller  [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:51:36 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, Should it have be...

Hello, Mr. Bowman!

> After the mass cliff-side suicides of Okinawan (Japanese) civilians during
> the taking of Oki, were numbers of possible suicides in Japan ever proposed
> for the homeland invasion?

    Perhaps, but the person committing suicide was expecting to take
an invader or invaders with him. Women particularly were
contemplating that based on the propaganda fed them from the
government as to what to expect from the invading force.

 A blockade scenarion is often suggested in lieu
> of the bomb, how many civilians would have starved to death rather than give
> up?

    The number could have numbered in the millions as I view it.

Are we the only country brow beating itself over decisions made 50 years
> ago?

    Perhaps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:57:22 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor

Hello, Jim!

> I've always wondered WHAT IF Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but the
> USSR instead.  Wouldn't that have made a big difference in the German
> attack on Russia?

    Perhaps, but the Japanese had not forgotten the stinging defeat
inflicted on them Khalkin Gol by Zhukov, and were in no hurry to
assist their "ally" Hitler.

    Such an attack would have definitely been of great assistance to
Hitler in that substantial forces would have been drawn from the West
to fight the Japanese. However, the problem with such an attack was
logistics. The Germans and the Japanese lacked sufficient manpower to
maintain control of conquered areas without seriously stretching
their front line. They also lacked the materiel to sustain a long war
in that region, as they were still trying to consolidate their gains
in China and Manchuria.

 Also, Germany would not have
declared war on the US.
> Was it not in Japan's strategic interest to double-team Russia with Germany?

    See above. Perhaps, but there was nothing to be gained over the
long haul by attacking the Russians, save maybe by occupying Siberia,
and I don't think the Japanese had the manpower to sustain such an
assault followed by occupation.

    My two cents' worth on this, and thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:37:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF operations

Hello, Henrik!

Tell your friend to get hold of a copy of:

    The RAF Bomber Command in World War II by Gavin Lyall

    Also:

    Thousand Plane Raid by Ralph Barker.

    These might help.

    Terry
> A friend of mine, Michael, is interested in the RAF operations over
> Nothern Europe during WWII. He is not subscribing to this list.
>
> If anyone has interest/info, please contact him by e-mail:
>
> [email-masked]
>
> Thanks, :-)
>
> Henrik
>
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:05:32 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Commandant at Auschwitz?

Hello, Brad!

> The combination of the anniversery of Auschwitz' liberation and the
> discussion of Speer reminded me of one point I have been curious about.
> I have been told that Hoess wrote his memoirs while in a Polish prison.
> I know Speer did much (all?) of his writing in prison and then smuggled it
> out.  How did Hoess get his writing out?

    If I am not mistaken he was requested to do so, or he may have
made that request. In any event, it was mutually agreed.

 It seems difficult to believe
> that the Communists were all that willing to give him the opportunity
> but who knows?

    It was possible.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:10:51 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Aichi A6M

        Thanks to Jack McKillop and Greg Kelley for posting info on the
Aichi A6M.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:21:21 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hurricane

>
>>I thought that the Hurricanes fuselage was metal skinned around the
>>engine, a wooden "plywood-like" material arround the cockpit, and fabric
>>covered aft of the cockpit.  Am I mistaken?
>
>
>What can I say but "oops"?  It's what I get for working without a net.
>I was rambling along on memory only.
>
>In October 1993, I got the chance to photograph and sit in the cockpit
>of the Hurricane at Wright Pat.  The cockpit interior side walls were
>painted plywood, but I don't know if that is strictly accurate or not.
>The aircraft's cockpit is not normally open for inspection, and so
>the restoration may not be complete or accurate in that regard.  It did
>*look* right though, with all the assorted plumbing overlaying the
>plywood.  The wood grain is visible in the photographs, and I remember
>being amazed when I first saw it.  If somebody is going to be shooting
>at me, I'd have wanted something more substantial surrounding me.
>

That is roughly the same experience I had with the "late" Hurricane owned
and operated by the Canadian Warbird Heritage museum (destroyed in a hangar
fire two or three years ago).  I was in the cockpit and thought that the
skin was of some wooden material.  The cockpit itself was painted so it was
difficult to say but it looked and felt wooden to me.  Unfortunetly since
the aircraft was destroyed, I had only my memory to remind myself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:21:28 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Commandant at Auschwitz?

I've been looking everywhere for Ho"ss' book, and have been unable to
find it. Does anybody have any idea who the publisher is/where I might
get a copy? For that matter, is it still in print? I read about 1/2 of it
years ago and really want to finish. Thanks,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:30:43 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Other daring Axis plans

        This topic of daring strikes against vunerable Allied targets
reminded me of an article I read in the Autumn 1994 issue of Military
History Quarterly concerning the Italian special naval sabotage unit,
known as the 10th Light Flotilla or the Decima MAS.

        This unit was on the verge of launching an attack on New York
Harbor when Italy capitulated.  The plan called for the ocean-going
submarine, LEONARDO DA VINCI, to be modified to carry a CA-type (two-
man) midget submarine in a well on her ward casing.  The midget
submarine, the CA.2, carried a crew of three and was armed with eight
220-pound charges slung outside the hull.  Along with the CA.2, the
LEONARDO DA VINCI would carry a group of Gamma assault frogmen.  The
operation called for the big sub to release the midget and the Gamma
group outside New York Harbor.  The Gamma men would help the CA.2
through the nets and into the Hudson River, where they would be free
to attack any targets of opportunity.  For greater psychological
impact, the attack was scheduled for Christmas Eve 1943.  This had
proceeded beyond the planning stage as the submarines had been
modified and the personnel were in training.

        If it had been successful, similar operations would have been
launched against Freetown in Sierra Leone and ports in South America.
But the armistice put an end to these plans when most of the Decima
MAS joined the Italian cobelligerent forces and operated against their
countrymen in the Italian Social Republic and the Germans.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 21:52:43 +0100
From:    PERRIN Olivier <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rocket Fighter

>Hello, Paul!
>
>Will answer your question about the KC.
>
>> No...It is Rocket Fighter and is about the Komet...BTW someone else had
>> included it in their posting last night also Rudel in Stuka Pilot, someone
>> commented "if 65% is true then he must have been one of the greatest" or
>> something to that effect... I beleive he was awarded the Knights Cross with
>> diamonds - one of only about 24 but check me on that...If so I'd tend to
>> beleive the 65%.
>
>    Hans-Ulrich Rudel was the only German to have been awarded the
>Golden Oakleaves and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross. Rudel was one of
>26 German soldiers so honored with this rare decoration of the
>Knight's Cross with Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds. Werner Moelders
>was the first, followed by Adolf Galland. Rommel was number 6,
>Marseill was number 4 and so on.
>
>    Hope this helps.
>
>    Terry

According to W.-P. FELLGIEBEL's  _die Traeger des Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen
Kreuzes 1939-1945_,PODZUN-PALLAS-VERLAG 1993 :

RUDEL Hans-Ulrich was the only one to be awarded the Knight Cross with
Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds (Goldenen Eichenlaubs mit Schwertern
und Brillanten zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes) on
12th November 1944 as Oberstleutnant, CO of Schlachtgeschwader 2 "Immelmann".
Before that he was awarded :
Ritterkreuze as Oblt., Staffelkpt. 9./Stuka-Geschw. 2 "Immelmann"       on 6.1.42
Eichenlaub as Oblt., Staffelkpt. 1./Stuk-Geschw. 2 "Immelmann" 14.4.43,
ranked 229 out of 882
Schwerter as Hptm., Kdr. III./Stuka-Geschw. "Immelmann" on 25.11.43, ranked
42 out of 159
Brillanten Major, Kdr. III./S.G. 2 "Immelmann" on 29.3.44 rank 10 out of 27

Olivier PERRIN
Paris - FRANCE

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:08:57 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 28Jan45

28 January, 1945
D-Day +236

-The Battle of the Bulge officially ends with all enemy captured territory
 regained. More than 22,000 prisoners had been taken.

-XII Corps, 5th Inf Div clears Putschied and Fennburg, securing a line
 one mile West of the Our River.

-XIX TAC flew 70 sorties, escorting IX Bomber Command aircraft.

-During the day, Roder, Marbourg, Kalborn, and Bubingen were also captured.

***Source: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province.
   Typoes: mine.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:39:27 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Commandant at Auschwitz?

Thanks Terry and Mike for the info.  As always, I knew there was
someone on the list who could come through.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:29:56 -0600
From:    Mark J Weber <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Perhpas not when liberation by red Army was at hand. I will look for
reference.

--
Dr. Mark J. Weber                       [email-masked]
Department of Management and Economics  tel (w) 612-641-2431
Hamline University                      fax (w) 612-641-2956
1536 Hewitt Ave.                        tel (h) 612-475-2960
St. Paul, MN 55104                      fax (h) 612-476-8309

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Mark...
>         You mention "multiple reports" of liberated Allied POWs taking
> up arms against the Russsians ....
>         Extraorinary remark.
>         I have never heard or read so much as a single whisper of such an
> event. Highly improbable, if only because such action would have been
> tantamount to suicide.  Allied POWs released from Nazi camps were too bloody gla
> d to
> be liberated to think of anything but getting home in 1945.
> Sounds awfully comic strip... :-)
>
>
> --
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:05:52 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: uniforms for women in WWII

You might check and see if there are female naval aviator shoes on the
market that would work.  USN aviator shoes are brown and the female
one's just may do the trick--anything else you might find some
commercially manufactured shoe that looks close--if not--find the right
style and have them redyed.  Also, i've heard of using spray
paint--which is a short term solution.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 18:11:21 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Attempted officer's coup to prevent Japanese surrender

        The Japanese decision to surrender was authoritatively taken on the
same day the second atomic bomb was dropped (on Nagasaki, August 9th, 1945),
although ratification of the decision by all concerned parties in the upper
echelons of the Japanese government and military was to take up further time.
August 9th was also the day that the Soviet Union declared war on Japan, and
commenced offensive operations.  It was apparently the latter action which
caused the Prime Minister, (retired) Admiral Kantaro Suzuki, to decide that
the time had come to end the war without further ado.  A few minutes BEFORE the
dropping of the Nagasaki A-bomb, Suzuki convened a meeting of the Supreme War
Council, known throughout Japan as "The Big Six."  Its members included, in
addition to Prime Minister Suzuki, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo; War
Minister General Korechika Anami; Navy Minister Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai; Army
Chief-of-Staff General Yoshijiro Umezu; and Navy Chief-of-Staff Admiral Soemu
Toyoda.
        I should diverge briefly to mention the interesting story of Prime
Minister Suzuki.  In 1936, having already retired as an admiral from the
Imperial Navy, Suzuki was serving as the Emperor's Grand Chamberlain.  As such,
he was one of several leading Japanese military and political figures targeted
for assasination in a major uprising of extremist right-wing young officers
(who favored an aggressively expansionist foreign policy and a military
dictatorship on the home front) in what came to be known as the "2/26
Incident."  There were many parallels between this revolt and the abortive coup
of August 1945, among them the fact that the officers in charge of the uprising
brought out the men under their command, who were simply following orders of
their commanding officers and had no idea, in most cases, that they were
participating in an attempted coup d'etat.  At any rate, on February 26, 1936,
a group of some 150 soldiers burst into Suzuki's official residence, bayonets
fixed, led by several officers with drawn pistols.  After briefly and
unsuccessfully searching for his sword, Suzuki faced the intruders bravely,
asking them why they were doing this.  He got no answer, but when one man told
him they were going to shoot, Suzuki told them to get on with it, and stood at
attention like a man facing a firing squad.  Three men leveled their pistols at
the Chamberlain and fired.  One bullet missed, one hit Suzuki in the crotch,
and the third went through part of his heart.  As he fell, still concious
throughout the entire episode, his assailants continued shooting, and he was
hit a couple more times, in the shoulder and in the head.  The appearance of
Suzuki's wife, and the respect of the captain in charge of the assassins for
the admiral, caused that officer to defer the coup de grace.  Miraculously,
Suzuki survived the encounter.  When he was appointed Prime Minister in April
1945, Suzuki felt it was his mission to end the war, but he was initially
determined to do so only subject to terms consistent with his idea of
Japanese honor and the preservation of "kokutai," the "national essence."
Foreign Minister Togo was another member of the peace faction.  He had held the
same position at the time of Pearl Harbor, but it was known that he had opposed
the war, and later he had resigned from the Tojo government in protest of
Tojo's "high-handed and dictatorial methods."
        It should be mentioned that the 2/26 Incident marked a turning point in
pre-war Japanese politics.  In addition to the assasinations (the Prime
Minister had also been targeted, but escaped with the help of a sympathetic
police officer), the rebels had surrounded the Imperial Palace.  But the
intervention of the Navy, which threatened to shell Tokyo with its warships,
turned the balance against the officer's uprising.  After this rebellion the
Army leadership finally took a firm hand against the mutinous officers, handing
out death sentences to the leading perpetrators (in many previous incidents
during the phase which US reporter Hugh Byas called "government by
assasination" the culprits got off with a slap on the wrist-- their "patriotic
motives" were taken into account.  I may post some thoughts about this later,
seeing as I decided to abandon my Soviet history posts as being too long, too
preachy, and too borderline-related to the list).  On the other hand, the long
period of turmoil characterized by assasinations and other violent acts of
insubordination by junior officers-- the invasion of Manchuria might also be
included in this category, although that had covert backing in higher
quarters-- had brought the country to the point where the necessity of
appointing a government of expansionist generals was recognized, and where the
opposition had been cowed into relative silence by fear of assassination.  The
end product of this was the appointment several years later of General Tojo as
Prime Minister.
        At any rate, at the meeting of the "Big Six" on August 9, 1945, which
convened exactly one minute before the bomb fell on Nagasaki, only Admiral
Yonai seemed inclined to even discuss the possibility of surrender now favored
by both Suzuki and Togo.  War Minister Anami refused to say there was any hope
of victory, but later said "that we will inflict severe losses on the enemy
when he invades Japan is certain."  Umezu, the Army Chief-of-Staff, said, "With
luck we will be able to repulse the invaders before they land.  At any rate, I
can say with confidence that we will be able to destroy the major part of an
invading force.  That is, we will be able to inflict extremely heavy damage on
the enemy."  (I'm quoting this from Toland at length because it seems germaine
to the ongoing discussion of the Japanese surrender, Enola Gay exhibit,
Alperowitz, etc).  The unsatisfactory outcome of the meeting (in addition to
Suzuki and Foreign Minister Togo, only Navy Minister Yonai expressed the view
that there was no point in continuing the war) led Suzuki to take the
unprecedented step of requesting a meeting with the Emporer, and asking him to
make the decision for the deadlocked council.  That evening the "Big Six,"
along with Privy Councilor Baron Kiichiro Hiranuma, a crusty and proper old
conservative with a reputation for fierce nationalism, met with the Emporer.
Anami and Umezu refused to be moved, and expressed themselves much the same way
as at the earlier meeting.  Admiral Toyoda, the Navy Chief-of-Staff, said, "We
cannot say that final victory is a sure thing, but at the same time we do not
believe that we will be completely defeated."  However, Suzuki had met
privately with the Emporer earlier in the day, and at that  time Hirohito had
agreed to accept any terms that would lead to peace.  The Emporer now announced
his decision.  He told his government that "we must bear the unbearable" and
make peace (among the things he felt were "unbearable" was that "others who
have rendered me devoted service should now be punished as instigators of the
war"-- one of the chief stated objections of the military chiefs, other than
dishonoring the sacrifices of the dead by surrendering, was allowing the Allies
to try Japanese officers and soldiers for war crimes).
        Even at this juncture the acceptance of the higher echelons of the
military was far from complete.  Anami left the meeting and soon afterwards, on
the advice of his staff, authorized an order to the troops, especially those
facing the Russians, to keep fighting.  Vice-Admiral Takijiro Onishi, the aerial
warfare expert who developed the idea of the kamikazes, tried to urge Admiral
Toyoda to continued resistance, claiming with tear-filled eyes that if they
were prepared to sacrifice twenty million lives in "special attacks" (as the
kamikaze and other suicide tactics were known) they could still win.  Baron
Hiranuma made trouble over the wording of the Allied terms, saying "the status
of our Emporer is one ordained by the Gods."  Anami and Umezu wanted a
counterproposal which included among its stipulations that any alleged war
criminals be tried by Japanese military courts!
        As this is turning out to be lengthy (I seem to be unable to avoid
keyboard diahrea whenever I start one of these things-- maybe I should take the
advice trumpeter Miles Davis once gave to the young sax God John Coltrane when
the 'Trane said he soloed so long because he didn't know how to end it-- Miles
said, "you take the horn out of your mouth") I'll have to break off and get to
the main event Monday.  Sorry for my loquaciousness (sp?).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:28:38 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fabric surfaces

You wrote:

>
>I remember reading somewhere (perhaps the Brits going after the
BISMARCK)
>that fabric covered aircraft, e.g., the Fairey Swordfish, have an
>advantage in that AA fire may make a nice hole in the fabric but can
make
>a real mess out of metal.  Has anyone heard similar tales?
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
>|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
>|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
>|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Another advantage was that explosive ordnance would often simply pass
through fabric skinned surfaces, where metal surfaces would detonate
them.

I've read several sources that indicate that during the Battle of
Britain, repair turn around times for Hurricanes were far less than
those of Spitfires because fabric skins were much more easily repaired.

Fabric surfaced controls could also be affected by paint application.
In the early days of the Hawker Fury fighter there were several
instances of control instability that were finally traced to uneven
paint application.  Those British squadrons were so proud of their
beautiful tail markings that the ground crews would touch them up
whenever a chip appeared...

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Jan 1995 00:22:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

Tim Watts notes
  > There was also a British battleship sunk by collision in the 1880s...

My list showed only one BB was ever sunk by ramming =BY THE ENEMY=.  For a
couple of decades after the Battle of Lissa (1866) rams were standard
equipment on many BBs.

As to BB sinkings by other collisions the source notes three:
 VANGUARD, British, Irish Sea, 1875
 GROSSER KURFURST,  German, Dover Straits, 1878
 VICTORIA, British, Coast of Lebanon, 1893

I guess the skippers learned to steer the brutes after 30 years of practice.

A note on WWII scuttlings: there were 5.  Three were the French BBs scuttled
at Toulon, November 1942, when the Nazis occupied Vichy France.  The other
two were the French Courbet, sunk by the Allies as part of Mulberry A off
the Normandy beachhead on 10 June 1944; and the German Gneisenau, scuttled
at Gdynia, Poland on May 5, 1945.

Ed Miller  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 19:31:04 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 29Jan45

January 29, 1945
D-Day +237

-VIII Corps began a new operation: cross the Our River, 87th Inf Div on the
 left, 2 regiments of the 4th Inf Div advance in the center, and 90th Inf
 Div on the right. They captured Hemmers, Elcherath, Lommersweiler, and Setz
 in a day.

-III Corps, 17th Airborne clears Roder, 6th Armored discontinues patrols
 on the Our.

-XIX TAC flew 512 sorties, strafing 745 motor vehicles, and 268 railroad cars.

-3rd Army requested sled dog teams from 12th Army Group to facilitate
 medivac through the deep snow encountered. XII Corps was experimenting
 with litters with snow runners.

***

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Jan 1995 20:53:48 -0500
From:    "Kevin McGrattan, North Buncombe Middle School" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lend-Lease Act

My name is Kevin, and I am an 8th grader.  My history paper on the Lend-Lease
Act is being submitted to a regional history contest.  I am concentrating on
the events leading up to the passage of the Act.  My teacher says that i need
to add some primary sources to my paper.  Can anyone out there help me?  Are any
    of you WWII veterans who remember this?

I am using my dad's e-mail address:  [email-masked]

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:13:00 PST
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese Zero planes

Some of you on the list might find the following of interest.  Last night on
the local news they did a small feature on a family here in Winnipeg who have
begun building a Japanese Zero.  I am not talking restoration but actual
construction right down to the rivet.  They are using copies of original
blueprints and they have lots of parts from downed aircraft to use as guides
in the tooling process.  The father of the family said some of their greatest
challenges arise when attempting to figure out what a specific part's
function may have been.  The family is not of oriental background.  They're
just enjoying building what they think was one of the greatest fighter
planes.  They want to build three of them and hope to have the first one
completed in a year.  Asking price: 2 million dollars.  OUCH! I'll settle for
a scale model.

Bill Wsiaki
St. Paul's College Library
University of Manitoba

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Jan 1995 to 27 Jan 1995
*************************************************