Subject: WWII-L Digest - 8 Feb 1995 to 9 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 00:00:35 -0500

There are 64 messages totalling 2212 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ? NATIVE AMERICANS
  2. WWII DIARY (2)
  3. POWs
  4. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (5)
  5. MEDIA:Lord Haw-Haw
  6. Seasickness (Was WWII Diary)
  7. GEN: Berchtesgaden/Obersalzberg facilities
  8. INF: USN Chronology 02-09-95
  9. Other Lists
 10. OB for Hawaii (2)
 11. INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-FEB-1945
 12. Glenn Miller
 13. Napalm in WWII
 14. MUSIC, Glenn Miller (2)
 15. Enola Gay Exhibit (4)
 16. GEN Re: ? native Americans during WWII (2)
 17. GEN Re: Enola Gay Exhibit (2)
 18. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45
 19. 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv. (2)
 20. RCAF Units In The RAF "Tiger Force" (2)
 21. TAC: Operation Anvil (2)
 22. ?where is NIEDOWICZE, POLAND
 23. Seasickness was Re: WWII Diary (2)
 24. Nova - Death Camp Engineers (2)
 25. DoD Newswire
 26. Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's (6)
 27. WWII Diary (2)
 28. WEAP: Japanese Type 93 Oxygen Torpedo
 29. WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb
 30. e-mail info
 31. Native Americans
 32. Japan posts-- amplification and errata
 33. DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPI...
 34. Enola Gay
 35. Will this guy ever shut up about Japan?
 36. North Africa
 37. [INF] USAAF 10 FEB 45
 38. DISNEY Project
 39. 320th Fighter Squadron
 40. Ascension Island
 41. MED: Local VFW Honors Four Chaplains

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:22:14 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? NATIVE AMERICANS

Pardon me for correcting you, Terry, but the flagraisers in the Rosenthal photo
were five Marines and a Navy corpsman, John Bradley, who just recently died. He
was the last of the six to go. Only three lived after Iwo Jima--Rene Gagnon,
Ira Hayes, and John Bradley. Re/Native Americans, I again suggest Doris Paul's
"The Navajo Code Talkers," which is the best and most accurate book published
on the subject. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:27:43 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII DIARY

When I left San Diego for the Pacifc, we sailed out beyond the breakwater at
Point Loma, and the offshore ocean swell following a major storm made my ship
kneedeep in vomit. I remember that for dinner before we left the dock we had
Spanish frankfurters and boiled potatoes and jello, the typical Saturday night
dinner in the Navy, only we didn't call them Spanish Ffranks. We had another
name for them. In any case, we were all so sick, we hoped that a Jap sub would
sink the ship and take us out of our misery. However, once the storm had passed
and we gained our sea legs, the trip across the Pacific to Noumea first, and
then Guadalcanal, was pleasant and the Pacific was pacific. At night, the ship
trailed phosphorescent waves, and during the day, dolphins skipped in and out
of the water and guided our ship, so it seemed. At night, the moon on the water
was spectacular, as was the Southern Cross when we reached the South Pacific.
Sailing on the Pacific, going to a landing, or returning from a campaign back
to our rest camps, is an experience one hardly forgets. Vomit and all. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:30:33 -0500
From:    Thomas Pike <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Do you think WETA would be a possibility?
Thomas Pike

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:48:31 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Joe...
        When I commented that there was not one document incidence of
[bombed] British civilians ever lynching a downed German airman, I was
of course referring to British people in the United Kingdom -- not Malta,
or alsewhere.
Incidentally, the island of Malta was subjected to years of intense air
bombardment for yoears by german and Italian aircraft. The island ordeal
was such that Malta as a whole was awarded the George Cross, Britain's
second highest award for bravery -- the only time an entire country was
awarded a medal. To this day, the country's official name is:
        "Malta, GC".
        I had not heard of any reprisal there against downed Italian
pilots. However, the Italian forces comitted unspeakable atrocities against
civilians in Yugoslavia and Albania, which may expain, if not excuse, any
retaliation by Maltese.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:28:37 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Lord Haw-Haw

Whatever maunderings are being "revealed" now about "Britons Pleaded
For Law Haw-Haw", the appropriate comment is -- not many.
It is not an exaggeration to state that British people detested
William Joyce almost as much as Adolph Hitler.
Anyone who crouched who ever heard that man's sneering, drawling
voice, gloating at Britain's suffering under bombardment from
German aircraft and long-range shelling... Hatred for the man would
be an understatement.

It is also fatuous revisionism to allude to Joyce's execution being
an example of him being done away with "while upper-class traitors
went free".
John Amery, who was executed in December, 1945, was the son of Leo
Amery, a member of Winston Churchill's War Cabinet. His brother, Julian
Amery, parachuted into Albania to organize guerilla resitance against
the Nazis. The Amerys were an aristocratic British family. That did
not save John Amery from execution. (He was mainly charged with
treasonosly attempting to persuade British PWs to join the SS "British
Feee Corps".

(British Free Corps)

Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 06:53:43 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seasickness (Was WWII Diary)

>
> I asked my dad about his experience.  He crossed the North Atlantic on a
> Henry J. Kaiser (alum. co.) victory ship and lost 45 lbs.  (He may have
> been exaggerating--I know my dad.) The seas
> were rough and the ship did not have the stabilizers that they have today
> (whatever they are).  At one point he was so sick he considered jumping
> off the ship to end his misery!  Also, although he went over in the early
> winter of 1945 (participated in Marshall Plan, e.g., helping to deliver
> milk from Holland to Germany), his biggest worry going over was the
> thought of taking a ship back.  To this day we can't get him on a rowboat.
> He said that the sickness struck "both ends" and you could see
> guys sitting on one john while, er, leaning over to puke in the adjacent one.
> >From the 'for what it's worth' department.  :-)
>
> Cheryl                                    [email-masked]
>
Yeah, the Corvettes as well were said to have been "korks" in a such way
that even the most hardened sailors puked all over the place. Werner
also says in his Iron Coffins that a medical doctor they had onboard for
one mission was so sick they almost forgot he was onboard (always in his
bunk)! :) Seasickness is a discusting thing.

A friend of mine lost about 15 pounds on a Icelandic trawler which I
know to be a good ship so your father's 45 could in fact have been
"ejected" :)

Gudmundur Helgason.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:02:00 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Berchtesgaden/Obersalzberg facilities

A story has been brewing here in Germany which I thought might be of
interest to the List.

Many of the facilities/bases used by the American forces in Germany were
(are) "leftovers" from WWII.  The US Army today operates three major
recreation areas in Bavaria -- at Garmisch, Berchtesgaden, and Chiemsee,
each of which in housed in facilities dating back to the Nazi era.

AFRC Berchtesgaden is comprised in large part of buildings left over from
Hitler's Obersalzberg retreat.  (I've got quite a bit of detailed info
if anyone is interested. . .but that's another story).

Last summer it was decided that one of the three rec areas had to close
owing to the drawdown of troops in europe and, after extensive
negotiations with the German gov't it was decided to close Chiemsee.
Although Chiemsee was judged to be a better facility, the Bavarian gov't
feared that return of the Obersalzberg facilites to German civil control
would somehow open the door to their use as neo-Nazi shrines (or something
like that) and asked the US to retain the rec center at Berchtesgaden
instead of the one at Chiemsee.  The German gov't would then get the
complete Chiemsee facility (recently rennovated), but agreed to
pay for rennovations of the Berchtesgaden facilities.

During the past several weeks, however, the German gov't reneged on it's
agreement, citing the absence of a US gov't guanantee to use Berchtesgaden
for at least 10 years (the US simply said that under current admininstration
policy, a US presence is envisioned in Germany into the forseeable future).

So, now it appears that the former Nazi compound at Berchtesgaden (Obersalzberg)will be returned to the German gov't (probably late this year).

Stand by for more. . .

                             Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-09-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/09 Fri. Submarine BATFISH (SS-310) sinks Japanese submarine; this
           is the first of three Japanese submarines sunk in 4 days
           by BATFISH. (See 11 and 12 February 1945.)
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine I-41, by submarine BATFISH (SS-310),
              Philippine Islands area,
              18 d. 50'N., 121 d. 40'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 17:20:01 +0700
From:    Budi Primawan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Other Lists

> Readers,
>
>         I am curious to know if there are related lists for Korea,
> Vietnam and other 20th century military conflicts. If there are could
> someone please forward their addresses to me.
>         Second, I work for the Stars & Stripes, the military veterans and
> retirees paper. If anyone has an issue they would like to spread on a
> national forum please contact me.
Dear Mr. Johnson
If you are interested in Vietnam War, you could try [email-masked]
and subscribe to vw-l. Then, about other military conflicts, perhaps you could
try [email-masked] and subscribe to milhst-l. It's a forum for
those who interested in general military history.
About a topic for your magazine, why don't you try to uncover the story about
Japanese attempt to build an atomic bomb in 1940s? There was a professor in
University of Tokyo in the mid-s who tried to build one and his only obstacle e
was Japanese's lack in uranium. His name is Professor Yoshio Nishina.

See you !
Budi Primawan
Live Long and Prosper.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 07:17:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: OB for Hawaii

Patrick Johnson writes:

 >On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Michael P LaForge wrote:
 >
 >> 4th Reconnaissance Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
 >
 >How can a Recon Sqd be classified as heavy vs light or medium? Is the
 >designation related purely to the type of aircraft flown?
 >
 >Patrick

Prior to Apr 42 (??), each wing in the USAAF had one reconnaissance
squadron assigned per bombardment group; the reconnaissance
squadron was then attached to a bomb group.   So a Bombardment
Group (Heavy) would have three Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy)
assigned and a Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy) attached.  Likewise
with a Bombardment Group (Medium).  In Apr 42, the USAAF did away
with the whole mess by renumbering and redesignating the
Reconnassaissance Squadrons as Bombardment Squadrons and assigning
four squadrons to the group.

The same scheme had applied to Bombardment Groups (Light) but in
the Fall of 1941, the Reconnaissance Squadrons (Light) were
renumbered and redesignated Bombardment Squadrons (Light)  and
assigned directly to the group.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 07:40:29 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-FEB-1945

On 10-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army area, the British XXX Corps is
hampered by extremely poor road conditions and congestion and stiffening
German resistance. In the U.S. 9th Army area, the Germans have destroyed
outlets to the Roer River dams, flooding the proposed crossing sites of the
9th Army and forcing postponement of its attacks across the Roer. In the
3rd Army sector, the VIII Corps advances in the Prum sector. The XII Corps
continues to extend and strengthen the bridgeheads in the
Wallendorf-Dillingen and Weiterbach-Wchternach sectors.

Eastern Front - In East Prussia, the 2nd and 3rd White Russian Fronts take
the important port of Elbing and the communications center of Preussisch
Eylau respectively. The 2nd Ukraine Front makes a big breakthrough in the
Budapest sector, but fighting continues to rage in the city. In Yugoslavia
there is fighting west of Mostar.

Philippines - The 33rd Division arrives from Morotai. In the XIV Corps
area, opposition in south Manila is so stubborn and losses to the 37th
Division are so great that it is decided to hold up the offensive and
increase the volume of the air and artillery bombardment so as to soften up
the Japanese a bit more. Elements of the I Corps reach the east coast of
Luzon, so that the Japanese forces are cut in two. The heaviest
concentration is in the northern part of the island. The 11th Airborne
Division continues to clear the Japanese positions around Nichols Field.

Burma - The British 36th Division takes Myitson. The East African 28th
Brigade takes Seikpyu.

The Homefront
-------------
Meat Outlook Bleak - Government food officials warn that meats may
virtually disappear from civilian markets by mid-Summer, with no
improvement expected until the Fall.

Roosevelt Dog Case Explained - The Senate Military Affairs Committee has
revealed the details of the incident involving the dog Blaze, belonging to
Col. Elliott Roosevelt, and its possession of an "A" priority air transport
for a flight to the West Coast that involved the "bumping" of three service
men at Memphis, Tenn. Maj. Gen. H.L. George, chief of the Air Transport
Command, told the committee that "a serious mistake was made and it cannot
be justified." The report said the "A" priority was assigned the dog by
Col. Ray W. Ireland, in Washington, after the President's daughter, Mrs.
Anna Boettiger, telephoned him and asked that the dog be flown to
California. She did not request the priority. The service men "bumped" at
Memphis had "C" priorities and would have been put off the plane there by
"B" priority freight regardless of the dog. (So now we know why Roosevelt's
promotion was being questioned. JD)

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:09:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Glenn Miller

According to both CBS and NBC network news last night (Feb 8), new tapes of
recordings made by Glenn Miller have been found in London.  Supposedly a
secret, Miller and his band made tapes that were broadcast to the German
Army on Wednesday nights during a six week period in the Fall of 1944.  The
last tape was made about two weeks before Miller disappeared on 15 Dec 44.
The broadcasts had a female German refugee who translated Miller's
statements and also probably had propaganda material included.  The tapes
have been reproduced and are available in the UK; I am not sure whether it
is on cassette and/or CD.  The question is, when can I get them in the U.S.
to add to my Miller collection?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:32:30 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: Napalm in WWII

Incendiary bombs were first experimented with in the 1930s
using the cases originally used for other type chemical bombs.
The bombs were generally filled with gasoline and a rubber
compound to provide the "stick" in the ensuing firestorm in
the jelled fuel form as opposed to the "hot enough to melt
metal" of the thermite/thermate mixtures.

The incendiary bombs in use in November 1944 of the jelled
fuel type as opposed to the thermite/thermate mixes were
as follows:

Bomb, Incendiary, Oil, 6 lb., AN-M69:   2.8 lb. of jelled gasoline
and a .4 oz. black powder and magnesium ejection charge that
functioned to expel the cheesecloth sack of jellied gasoline
from the 2.88" X 19.5" sheet steel case.  Stabilized in
flight by muslin streamers. Fuzed with Fuze, Bomb, M1 which
is an impact type fuze with a 3-5 second delay. Charge
fragments burn from 8 to 20 minutes. Usually issued in
100 lb.(AN-M12) or 500 lb.(AN-M13) cluster bomb configuration

Bomb, Incendiary, 100 lb., AN-M47A2:   40 lb. charge of
jellied gasoline using IM or NP as the gelling agent. Utilizes
an AN-M13 Burster and Igniter AN-M9.

Bomb, Incendiary, 500 lb., AN-M76:   A 500 lb. G.P. case
modified for field assembly of Burster and Igniter, which
is loaded with 180 lb. of a gasoline gel-magnesium mixture.
The Burster is an AN-M14 and the Igniter is an AN-M5. Fuze,
Bomb, AN-M103, a nose fuze which is set for instantaneous
action is the fuze of choice.

Reference: TM 9-1980, Bombs For Aircraft, November 1944

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge                                                               *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosives Safety (USATCES)                 *
* Explosives Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                 *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP-FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-6009  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:09:13 ADT
From:    Joanne Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: MUSIC, Glenn Miller

Jack,

Any idea if the tapes are new material, or tapes of the arrangements
in his repertoire?

> From:           mc killop <[email-masked]>
> According to both CBS and NBC network news last night (Feb 8), new tapes of
> recordings made by Glenn Miller have been found in London.  Supposedly a
> secret, Miller and his band made tapes that were broadcast to the German
> Army on Wednesday nights during a six week period in the Fall of 1944.  The
> last tape was made about two weeks before Miller disappeared on 15 Dec 44.
> The broadcasts had a female German refugee who translated Miller's
> statements and also probably had propaganda material included.  The tapes
> have been reproduced and are available in the UK; I am not sure whether it
> is on cassette and/or CD.  The question is, when can I get them in the U.S.
> to add to my Miller collection?Joanne Brown, Reference Department
Ward Chipman Library
University of New Brunswick
Saint John, N.B. CANADA
Ph: (506)  648-5718
Fax:(506)  648- 5701
email: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:11:56 -0500
From:    James Ray Watkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

I feel like I must be going 'where angels fear to tread' but I would like to
comment on the recent Enola Gay thread in a more general way... What bothers
me is the use of Japanese as if it were a single thing or people (the same
goes for the U.S.). In other words, cant't the 'Japanese' in the larger
sense include both agressors _and_ victims? In the same way, can't the 'U.S'
be cosidered both 'humane' and 'inhumane' in its war policy? I know it sound
like a small point, but it seems to me that we should, as responsible
citizens, be very careful about what we are talking about. This could mean,
for example, that the discussion over the bomb should include careful
distinctions between, say, the military command, and the ordinary soilder,
or between the system of the millitary and the population at large. This
would apply to both countries. Then it would seem to me that the argument is
over how each millitary system treated its soilders, how it conducted itself
during the war, and so on. So that, rather than say the 'Japanese' were
warlike, agressive, cruel, we would say that the millitary system was out of
control, that its history allowed a kind of inhumanity that was not common
in other millitary sytems at the time, perhaps even that it came to believe
that an expansionist policy was its duty. This would not preclude saying
that it was lead, at times, by madmen. I say this because it seems to me
that we - people who live in a democratic system- need to know how it is
that particular millitary systems do get out of control. For example, it is
arguable that at times the U.S. millitary was 'out of control' in a parallel
way during the so-called Spnaish American War, or Vietnamn. I would be
interested in knowing the inside struggle of any army, its institutional
attempts to define its task in relationship to the larger society. Its a
wonderful thing, for example, that the U.S. millitary thinks of itself as
outside politics, at least to the extent that it has only rarely and only in
isolated cases thought of taking over the government. If that idea could be
understood, we might just be that much closer to preventing the next war.
Ok, enough.

Ray Watkins
A.I., Department of Rhetoric and Composition
English, University of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:21:40 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN Re: ? native Americans during WWII

Robert T. Moore writes to the list:
>    To my knowledge, all or most of the native-Americans to serve in
>the Armed Forces during WWII were in the Marine Corps.

        This will certainly be news to many of the men in Oklahoma's
Thunderbird Division!! From the uniforms and training, they thought
they were part of the U.S. Army.
        The Navajo Code Talkers are easy to spot because they were in
a special Marine Corps unit. I'm sure that Indians served in all the
services and all over the world.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:02:52 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Another for-what-it's-worth post:  Robert Westall, a British children's
author, wrote _The Machine Gunners_ based on his memories of life during
W.W.II.  It's essentially about boys who get obsessive collecting enemy
artifacts during the war, ignoring air raid proprieties, competing with
each other for the neatest find.  Someone finds a working German machine
gun in a new plane wreck and the boys set up their own outpost on the
beach to singlehandedly save England from the expected invasion.  They
manage to capture a downed German and (here's where topic relevance comes in)
debate what to do with him.  They and the German feel that he may be "lynched"
if found.  I won't tell the ending because I can't remember it, nor can I
find the book (aargh).
     Unfortunately this is marketed in America as a children's book, and
most American kids will give up reading it after 3-4 pages of what we call
Briticisms.  There are teachers who teach history and lit. in tandem and
do help kids 'translate' Westall's English slang.  Or as Henry Higgins
says in _My Fair Lady_ about English, "In American they haven't spoken it
in years."

I have no doubt that many of you would enjoy the book, it's avail. in pbk.

Cheryl                                    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:35:52 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Robert Granvin writes:
>Might I suggest that the members of the mailing list pitch together some
>funds and hire a group of independent statisticians?  (Much like the ones
>I work with every day).  Have them record all the statistics for the Pacific
>campaign and then extrapolate into an independent assessment of the probable
>casualties suffered during a home island invasion?

        This sounds interesting, but on its own merits and not as a
discussion of what happened in 1945. The careful, non-revisionist
historian should concentrate on the estimates made during the invasion
planning and on the perceptions of commanders, troops, and the
American people THEN. In other words, a decision was made then and the
proper examination of it would be the assumptions and reasoning used
at the time. Second guessing the decision from 1995 may be fun for us,
but it ain't doing good history.
        I don't know all the planning details, but I'd be willing to
guess that the decision to use the atomic weapons was backed up by a
healthy combination of good casualty estimates, a need to get our POWs
out of Japanese hands as soon as possible for their well-being, a
desire to further punish the "criminal" Japanese, and a dash of
racism. In other words human folks put their heads together and made
what they thought was the best decision.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 07:00:51 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MUSIC, Glenn Miller

At 2:09 AM 2/9/95, Joanne Brown wrote:
>Jack,
>
>Any idea if the tapes are new material, or tapes of the arrangements
>in his repertoire?
>

Not to answer for Jack, but I heard the news too and they played some of
the music.  I believe it is released on two CDs.  I believe (not positive)
that some of it is new.  The part I heard played was in German for the
progaganda broadcasts, an interesting experience.  I don't know if Silver
Platters in a national chain or not, but out here (Pacific Northwest
U.S.A.) they will probably have it if anybody does.
>
>
>> From:           mc killop <[email-masked]>
>> According to both CBS and NBC network news last night (Feb 8), new tapes of
>> recordings made by Glenn Miller have been found in London.  Supposedly a
>> secret, Miller and his band made tapes that were broadcast to the German
>> Army on Wednesday nights during a six week period in the Fall of 1944.  The
>> last tape was made about two weeks before Miller disappeared on 15 Dec 44.
>> The broadcasts had a female German refugee who translated Miller's
>> statements and also probably had propaganda material included.  The tapes
>> have been reproduced and are available in the UK; I am not sure whether it
>> is on cassette and/or CD.  The question is, when can I get them in the U.S.
>> to add to my Miller collection?Joanne Brown, Reference Department
>Ward Chipman Library
>University of New Brunswick
>Saint John, N.B. CANADA
>Ph: (506)  648-5718
>Fax:(506)  648- 5701
>email: [email-masked]

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:45:23 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

>>February 8, 1945
>>
>>-3rd Army bridging units measured the speed of the currents in the Moselle
>> at 16 ft/sec. There were losses in the river crossing.
>
>That works out to 10.9 mph.  I guess there *were* losses in the river
>crossing!  How the heck would you get a bridge built with that much water
>coming down in the first place?
>ken koester

Hi Ken,... I haven't the foggiest. Verbatim from the book is:
"The Third Army, advancing astride the Moselle River, encountered a long
succession of rain-swollen and heavily defended streams. The streams,
which were normally very mild and usually averaged 100 to 200 feet across,
were converted to into raging torents by heavy rains and melting snows.
The water was checked for speed and was found to be flowing at a velocity
of around 16 feet per second. On the far shores of these dangerous streams,
the Germans were strongly emplaced in pillboxes and natural rock formations.
The assault troops were very often not harmed by the Germans at all; instead,
they were often killed simply by the force of the heavy currents. The
churning water overturned many of their floats and boats and drowned a
great many soldiers. Many of the bodies of those men were never found
because of the swift currents. Bridge construction troops were forced to
work under the double handicap of the streams and artillery fire. In spite
of these handicaps, Third Army troops got across."

HTH, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:26:34 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv.

>> Hi Joe,... do you know if there were any friendly fire casualties with the
>> converted design (I mean to initiated the "rounds") or was preemtive thinking
>> employed (a rarity) ?   -Al
>
>        "M24 Chaffee in Action" has a photo of troops milling around an M24
>with one fellow standing on the chassis.  There is a wooden sign hanging from
>a highlight which reads "American tank - M24". The caption reads:  "This
>officer is instructing men of the 39th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry
>Division on the recognition points of the M24.  The torsion bar suspension
>of the M24 gave it a "German" look and to avoid cases of mistaken identity
>M24s toured various units to familiarize troops with the Chaffee."  There
>was no mention of any "accidents" so it may have been purely preventive
>in nature.
>
>        To go back to the original article, did you mean M59 or M5?  The
>"In Action" book states that the M5 Stuart (not to be confused with the
>M3 Stuart!) was replaced by the M24.
>
>        I'll post some more info on the M24 as time permits.
>--
>Joe Barone

C. Province wrote "M59" in his book. There is no other mention to compare for
typos, and I am not familiar with the models available at the time. If there
was such a thing as the M59, and it could be converted only with great
difficulty, I would buy into the M5 idea. But if an M59 existed and could
be easily converted, perhaps both were converted.

-Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:47:11 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

With all the commentary inre: casualty estimates versus the propriety
of dropping the bomb, I wonder just how many allied lives would justify
the bombing our enemy in wartime?

I mean, how many is enough to accept what already happened?

You know, the number that would satify people.

I would think that 1 would be enough. Maybe things are different now,
but the japanese were the enemy at the time.

                                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:18:32 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RCAF Units In The RAF "Tiger Force"

Great synopsis from Jack McKillop on "Tiger Force".  But I
have a question:  my Dad was part of the 6th Bomb Group,
in 424 Squadron, and he mentioned several times that they
had received all the necessary shots and were ready to
ship out to the Pacific when VJ Day came.  Yet your list
does not include 424 Squadron.  Does that mean that
personnel were being reassigned, or was 424 Squadron being
sent outside of Tiger Force?

Another question:  If I wanted to learn everything about the
6th Bomb Group, and 424 Squadron, where would I go?

Thanks, Jack, for your most informative post!

---

Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |
National Semiconductor   |           DON'T   TREAD   ON   ME               |
Santa Clara, Ca          |                                                 |
[email-masked]     |                                                 |

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:27:18 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: Operation Anvil

Hello All,

In my research on the Gothic Line operations in Italy in the Fall of
1944, I have repeatedly come across the debate within the Allied command
over the viability of withdrawing 7 U.S. and Free French divisions from
Alexander's 15 Army Group, in order to launch operation Anvil in the
south of France.  One side argues that Anvil was a vital part of the
overall breakout from Normandy and advance to the Rhine.  The other side
argues that those seven divisions would have been better employed
exploiting the breakthrough of the Gothic Line into the Po Valley.

I haven't amassed enough information to decide where I fit into this
debate, but I was wondering if anybody has any opinions or insights to
offer up on this issue.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee A. Windsor                             [email-masked].
8th Canadian Hussars                                  35 High St.
Wilfrid Laurier U.                                  Waterloo, ONT
Waterloo, Ontario                                         N2L 3X7
                         "Semper Fidelis"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:32:37 -0600
From:    "Margaret J. McCormick" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ?where is NIEDOWICZE, POLAND

Can any of you tell me the location of NIEDOWICZE, POLAND?
It is located near Warsaw, I believe.
Our resources do not include this town - but we know of its existance -
at least before the war.
Would appreciate any information you might know.
Sincerely,
margaret                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:37:24 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seasickness was Re: WWII Diary

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
>
>On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:
>
>> Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
>> Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
>> travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew
>
>Drew:
>
>I have discussed the topic of seasickness a number of times with my
>grandfather.  Although he did not experience the problem, he did take
>note of the situation among those around him.  He believed that when they
>first started their voyage, the sickness was due to the fact that them
>men were not accustomed to the movements of the ship.  However, once they
>were accustomed, the seasickness tended to return whenever there were
>U-Boat threats.  He believed that much of the problem was mental rather
>then physical after the initial adjustment period.
>
>Anyone else have some thoughts?   I'm interested in learning more too.
>
>C.K.
>
C.K., Drew, Gunnar, et al:

My Dad crossed the North Atlantic in late spring of 1943.  He
said the North Atlantic storms were unbelievable.  He mentioned
to me that he was assigned to the anti-aircraft complement on
the ship as his unit was an anti-aircraft unit.  He was the only
one that did not get seasick.  He said just about every Army
troop aboard was puking,etc. for most of the trip.  He also said
that he ate very well and as much as he wanted, as there were
very few people eating.  He also incurred the wrath of his
fellows, as he just did not get sick. He doesn't know why.  Must
have a heck of an inner ear!!

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:52:30 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

Hi Nechama, thanks for your inquiry. I stumble over my words if I don't
take [plenty] of time to write. I wanted to get across the idea that
they were led to the gas chambers, but were ultimately disposed of in
the cremtorium. 'Sorry for the confusion. -Al

>At  1:14 PM 2/8/95 -0500, Alan Wild wrote:
>
>>Ventilation systems were
>>efficient to clear the room of gas in a short time. Underground "morgues"
>>which previously had slides and chutes on which the dead were slid down
>>now had stairs; big-time evidence that the victims of the cremetoria were
>>eventually led to their deaths under their own power.
>
>Is this to say that they walked to the crematoria and we burned alive?
>This is something that I have never heard. In the pictures that I have
>seen, the crematoria looked like bread ovens.  They looked like they would
>only take a body that was already lying down.
>
>Sorry, but I would really like to know.
>
>Nechama
>[email-masked]

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:39:48 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: DoD Newswire

I apologize to all fellow list members.

Would the person from Cambridge who contacted me about the DoD
Newswire send me another message.  I accidentally deleted it
before answering it.

Again my apologies to all.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:23:00 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

I was just talking to a friend of mine, and he told me that during the
war in Denmark, the Gestapo HQ in Copenhagen kept prisoners of war on the
top floor so that the building wouldn't be bombed. Knowing this, the
allies launched a raid which consisted of flying along the city street,
and skipping a bomb into the ground floor. The building collapsed, but
few of the prisoners were harmed.
My question is this: did this really happen, and if so, can anyone
provide details (i.e. what prisoners, what year, how do you "skip" a bomb
etc.) Thanks in advance,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:29:28 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken Koester,

One way of estimating is to use previous campaigns as a

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:57:50 PST
From:    Peter Trott <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:

> Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
> Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
> travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew

Here is my Dad's recollection of the crossing:

"We climbed the gangplank of the Cristobal on May 17th 1944, and set off
in a convoy for Naples.  As protection against enemy subs, the ships were
very widely spaced, and zig-zagged all the way across.  The former luxury
cabins of the boat were stacked with bunks and the men were packed in
like sardines.  The boat's swimming pool had biffies installed all 'round
the bottom and a flight of stairs to get to them.  There were long lines
on the stairs when we had an outbreak of dysentery.  I didn't get it, nor
was I ever seasick.  The medicos blamed the outbreak on the ice cream, and
threw it all overboard, much to our disgust.  They had to do something.
We ate standing up -- not enough room for chairs.  Now that was a *mess*
hall!"

Peter Trott ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:15:17 -0500
From:    Frederick J Milford <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Japanese Type 93 Oxygen Torpedo

Set ww-ii-l ack

Does anyone have or know where I can get drawings and/or photographs of
Japanese Type 93 (or other) oxygen torpedoes?

I have the following:

     1) USN Tech. Mission to Japan (Report O-01-1 Japanese Torpedoes and Tubes
in particular)

     2) Kaigun Suiraishi

     3) Bullen paper from "Imperial War Museum Review"

     4) Itani et al paper in Warship 1991

     5) Photo reproduced in Frank "Guadalcanal"  (source?)

     6) Drawing from Kure Naval Museum

     7) Drawing from Maru, issue unknown, similar to item 6.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Fred Milford  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:17:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

Hello, Nechama!

> Is this to say that they walked to the crematoria and we burned alive?
> This is something that I have never heard. In the pictures that I have
> seen, the crematoria looked like bread ovens.  They looked like they would
> only take a body that was already lying down.

    No. Noone was burned alive in the KZ's. They were gassed first in
an adjoining room labeled "Brausebad" (Showerbath), and then had
their heads shaven for the hair, gold teeth and other valuable
extracted before being handed over to the Kommando for cremation.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:24:05 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN Re: ? native Americans during WWII

Hello, Sid!

Thanks for the note, and hope you are well.

>
>         This will certainly be news to many of the men in Oklahoma's
> Thunderbird Division!! From the uniforms and training, they thought
> they were part of the U.S. Army.
>         The Navajo Code Talkers are easy to spot because they were in
> a special Marine Corps unit. I'm sure that Indians served in all the
> services and all over the world.

    As stated in my post, "to my knowledge" ...Native-Americans
served with the US Marines. My mistake, to be certain. However, those
having served with the US Army are a well-kept secret. You hear about
the Navajo Code Talkers but virtually nothing about them serving with
the Army in WWII.

    Perhaps this needs more research. Thanks, again.

    All the best.

    Terry

 >
>                                                         --Sid
> --
> Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
> Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
> 4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
> Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 19:32:24 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seasickness was Re: WWII Diary

>
> My Dad crossed the North Atlantic in late spring of 1943.  He
> said the North Atlantic storms were unbelievable.  He mentioned
> to me that he was assigned to the anti-aircraft complement on
> the ship as his unit was an anti-aircraft unit.  He was the only
> one that did not get seasick.  He said just about every Army
> troop aboard was puking,etc. for most of the trip.  He also said
> that he ate very well and as much as he wanted, as there were
> very few people eating.  He also incurred the wrath of his
> fellows, as he just did not get sick. He doesn't know why.  Must
> have a heck of an inner ear!!
>
Hey Jim! and others!

   Some never get seasick while some always get seasick (and STAY
seasick no matter how long they are at sea) while most of us either get
a mild discomfort at first and then get well, or really sick for 1-2
days and then well.
   I have been a sailor for some years around Iceland which has some of
the worst areas of the entire Atlantic and I dont get seasick unless I
havent been at sea for about a year or so. Being in the North Atlantic
at it's worst is something one can hardly describe! 50-70 foot waves
with over 100 foot waves in between is no picnic with winds exceeding
140 knots (miles) on top of that (perhaps in a 50 meter ship which is
smaller than most of the waves)!.
   I was at sea when the worst storm since 1925 hit Iceland in 1990 and
our ship was severly damaged *inside the most protected port in Iceland*!

    But generally the merchant marines didnt dislike that bad weather
that much as any u-boat threat ceases along with the calm sea. Having a
700-ton u-boat jump out of the surface and crash into 100 foot waves is
not what the Germans wanted to experience so they stayed *deep* :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:08:06 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

<snip>

>allies launched a raid which consisted of flying along the city street,
>and skipping a bomb into the ground floor. The building collapsed, but
>few of the prisoners were harmed.
>My question is this: did this really happen, and if so, can anyone
>provide details (i.e. what prisoners, what year, how do you "skip" a bomb
>etc.) Thanks in advance,

I seriously doubted that this happened.  The Allies were not
technologically able to bomb until late in the war, and even then it was a
matter of lots of planes dropping lots of bombs on a 7 square mile area.
The bombing raids were far from precise.

This type of bombing sounds like something that could only be done with the
so called "Smart Bombs" that were used in the Persian Gulf.  But from my
understanding, that technology was not available until the Persian Gulf.

So my vote is that it is highly unlikely that this happened.

Nechama Cox
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:10:55 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Diary

Many thanks to Nicole for the recent post of the WWII diary kept by
a colleague's father.  It is terrific to see such primary materials preserved
and shared.

I found one line particularly interesting:

        "5/1/45  Tue.    Saw 15 PW's shot, hooray."

Anyone want to speculate as the to context for this?  (It does seem to
fit in with the general theme of the devaluation of human life that we
often see during wartime, and which has been touched on in a variety
of recent posts).

A number of people have commented on the seasickness theme found in the
early entries to the diary.  A Swedish immigrant to North Dakota in the
19th century (yes, I know this is off the list topic this is a good story
and I did my dissertation on Swedish immigrants) was asked by a niece
who was still in Sweden if one could die from seasickness.  He responded
(as would have a number of soldiers aboard transports in WWII), "No, but
you wish you could."

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:15:17 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb

Not that this is conclusive, but Roosevelt was a Navy man- after seeing
the battering the fleet took off Okinawa, this might have been the
straw that sent the casualty issue over the top for him.

What is probably conclusive- how does he justify a multibillion
dollar expenditure to the American Congress and public to produce
a working weapon, and then order an American invasion at probably
heavy cost without using it?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:32:19 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: e-mail info

>notify him as soon as possible.  All I can say is, if people are going to get
>burned up about a paragraph regarding e-mail, I bet some of you must love my
>300-line ranting and raving when its not a topic you're interested in....

Unlike Henry Herz, you have nothing to apologize for. Your posts are quite
informative and usually riveting. Please keep it up.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:59:18 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

At 1:23 PM 2/9/95, David Rising wrote:
>I was just talking to a friend of mine, and he told me that during the
>war in Denmark, the Gestapo HQ in Copenhagen kept prisoners of war on the
>top floor so that the building wouldn't be bombed. Knowing this, the
>allies launched a raid which consisted of flying along the city street,
>and skipping a bomb into the ground floor. The building collapsed, but
>few of the prisoners were harmed.
>My question is this: did this really happen, and if so, can anyone
>provide details (i.e. what prisoners, what year, how do you "skip" a bomb
>etc.) Thanks in advance,
>David Rising

I read about that recently, now all I have to do is remember where.  As I
recall, one of these attempts worked well, but another one went very wrong
when the bombs hit a school building and many children were killed.  (I'll
try to think of where I read it.  I'll be embarrased if it was here on the
list).

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:17:52 EST
From:    Alex M Spencer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

The raid on Gestapo Headquarters that you are referring to took place on
September 25, 1942 in Oslo, Norway.  Four Mosquitoes from 105 Squadron flying
at roof top level managed to hit the Headquarters building with four bombs.
Unfortunately, three of the bombs passed through the building before detonation
and the four bomb did not explode.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:23:08 EST5EDT
From:    "Dr. Tom Veve" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Native Americans

Dear Ben Frank:  Thanks for reminding me of the story of the three
Marines who raised the flag on Iwo Jima and then gave the last full
measure of devotion on the island.  That story never fails to remind
me about what
America is about and about the sacrifice of all those who served in
the war.  Those three men represent all that is
good about this country.

A quick aside on the Enola Gay...The controversy over the exhibit and
whether the use of the bomb was immoral is much like the discussion
of whether we should have gone to war with the Soviets immediately
after the Nazis surrendered.  Those points of view are not World War
II questions, they are Cold War questions.  Veve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:27:09 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken, yeah we agreed on something :)
They should put something up, but it looks like the Smithsonian has
many problems like this, from the latest media newsline that someone put on
here.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:31:55 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japan posts-- amplification and errata

        When I started out to summarize some of John Toland's "Rising Sun" in
response to a question from John Ausland, I didn't really anticipate that I
would be beginning a short series on Japanese war responsibility/guilt and how
that related to the atomic bombings (I guess I should recognize my own
longwindedness by now).  Since it did however become that, I thought I'd scroll
back through and add a few additional comments (and one correction).

        On Japanese military discipline:  there are two more illustrations of
the degree of discipline in the Japanese Army that seem to me really striking.
The first one, and unfortunately I can't remember where I read this, is that
Japanese Army life was so regimented in some respects that when the men
assembled for roll call or inspection every man had to have his penis on the
same side of his pants.  The other one came from a course I took here at Pitt,
taught by Richard Smethurst, who was at that time the head of the history
department.  His specialty is the modern Japanese military (the one book of his
they have here deals with the Japanese peasant culture and its relationship to
the militaristic state), and he told a story of one visit to Japan, during the
early '60's, when he was interviewing a gentleman who had been a sergeant in
WW2.  When Dr Smethurst mentioned the "Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and
Sailors," issued by Emporer Meiji (whose Restoration following the Perry visit
marked the beginning of modern Japan) in the early 1870's, the former Japanese
soldier immediately recited the entire thing from memory.  Now, first of all,
the document in question is several pages long.  Secondly, the formal version
of the Japanese language used for official proclamations of the Imperial court
is very different from everyday Japanese, to the extent that, for instance,
when Hirohito's message regarding the surrender was broadcast (the first time,
by the way, that a Japanese Emporer's voice had ever been deliberately
broadcast) it was difficult for the average Japanese to understand some of the
words.  Finally, this particular veteran had been out of the military for some
twenty years.  Still this long and difficult document could be recalled and
recited virtually verbatim.  It seems all Japanese soldiers and sailors had to
learn this "Imperial Rescript," and the thoroughness with which this was
apparently done testifies to the disciplinary powers enforcing it.

On Japanese atrocities:  The sad thing here, long as my post was, is that it
was far from comprehensive.  Among the things not mentioned, for example
(besides only briefly touching on the experiences of POW's who weren't outright
murdered or interned civilians, or mentioning such affairs as the execution of
the justices of the Phillipine supreme court, etc), were the number of
civilians who died of malnutrition and related diseases under Japanese rule.
In some places the allotted rations for civilians in occupied territories was
only half the calories allotted for Japanese, and in many places there was no
specific rationing system, but widespread plundering and destruction of
property consigned thousands to starvation.  I have seen the figure of at least
a million lives lost to these causes, but that is hard to verify, in part
because malnutrition, disease, and starvation were endemic to many of these
societies even before the Japanese came-- colonial rule wasn't necessarily that
benevolent either.  Chiang's China was probably the worst example.  The great
Hunan province famine which occurred during the war (described, among others,
by US journalist Theodore White, also discussed in Barbara Tuchman's "Stilwell
and the American Experience In China") was estimated to have claimed a million
lives, in an area the Japanese did not control-- and the policies of Chiang,
our ally, exacerbated rather than alleviated the problems.  There were probably
a similar number of victims when Chiang's forces blew up the Yellow River dikes
as a measure to delay the Japanese.  It held up the enemy for three months, but
it also flooded eleven cities and 4,000 villages, leaving some two million
Chinese homeless, and the number who were either lost in the initial floods or
who died later of starvation etc as their livelihoods were destroyed again
almost certainly ran into six figures (Tuchman).

On the August 1945 coup:  I don't remember if I mentioned this before, but I
wanted to say that two reasons the coup developed in such a haphazard fashion
were first, that the conspirators tried to the very end to enlist top-level
members of the Japanese military before going it alone (that's why the initial
vacillation of Anami and Umezu was important), and second because Major
Hatanaka had to make most of the arrangements by travelling around the environs
of Tokyo on a bicycle, so thoroughly had bombing and blockade disrupted Japan's
internal communications.  I also wanted to state for the record the full name
of General Shizuichi Tanaka, who in my opinion behaved impeccably throughout.
Finally, I wanted to state that, whatever his original vacillation, War
Minister Anami atoned for his errors in a most grevious fashion, committing
hara-kiri in the most painful of the traditional manners, making two slow cuts
in his own belly.

On gekokujo in pre-war Japan:  First, two corrections.  I said Prime Minister
Tsuyoshi Inukai was 73, in fact he was 75 when assassinated (the old gent had
politely invited his assailants into his sitting room before they killed him,
treating them as guests).  Secondly, I said the conspirators in the two
abortive coup plots of March and October 1931 got off with no worse than
transfers.  In fact, the two colonels at the head of the October plot got
twenty days and ten days confinement to quarters, respectively (that should
have discouraged further disobedience!!).  I also wanted to mention that the
gekokujo period reflected not only the disagreements between the expansionist
Seiyukai and the conservative Minseito political parties (by the early '30's
the dissidents were demanding an end to party politics completely, and a period
of rule by the military in the name of the Emporer), but also differopinions within the military followeddddddddddddddd

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:35:01 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

Hello, David!

Thanks for the note, and will answer your question.

> I was just talking to a friend of mine, and he told me that during the
> war in Denmark, the Gestapo HQ in Copenhagen kept prisoners of war on the
> top floor so that the building wouldn't be bombed. Knowing this, the
> allies launched a raid which consisted of flying along the city street,
> and skipping a bomb into the ground floor. The building collapsed, but
> few of the prisoners were harmed.

> My question is this: did this really happen, and if so, can anyone

    Yes. This raid was carried out by Mosquito figher/bombers in
1944. The exact info I have on this raid is at home, but yes, it did
occur.

> provide details (i.e. what prisoners, what year, how do you "skip" a bomb
> etc.) Thanks in advance,

    It can be done by a good pilot who knows how to manipulate the
flight characteristics of a bomb.

    I have the whole story at home. Please let me know, if you desire
it, and if you think the list will want to hear or read it.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:40:19 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken,

Okay, so send me 30 million dollars and I will host a paint-ball invasion
and we can count up bodies afterwords.  For any responsible historian,
60,000 is a ludicrusly low number, for that side can you 'prove' to

me that all the Japanese civilians would not have commited suicide if we
invaded.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:45:21 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPI...

to all:

MacArthurs numbers also are only for seizing the Kyushu Plain, not the entire
island, the mountains were not to be taken, but left there, and everyone
knows from the other invasions, that heavy US forces always happened in the
mountains were heavy firepower was limited.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:50:44 -0500
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Operation Anvil

Lee Windsor writes:

> ... I have repeatedly come across the debate within the Allied command
>over the viability of withdrawing 7 U.S. and Free French divisions from
>Alexander's 15 Army Group, in order to launch operation Anvil in the
>south of France.  One side argues that Anvil was a vital part of the
>overall breakout from Normandy and advance to the Rhine.  The other side
>argues that those seven divisions would have been better employed
>exploiting the breakthrough of the Gothic Line into the Po Valley.

I think I read that somewhere close to half the supply going to the Allied
forces in NW Europe by the fall of '44 went thru Marseille. Without Anvil,
it seems likely to me that the capture and openning of the port would have
been delayed by months. It all very speculative, but I doubt that the
Allies would have been nearly as successful in liberating nearly all of
France by the end of the year.

I can't see operations in Italy leading to much other than getting the
Germans out of Italy. It's not a very good region from which to attempt
a drive into Germany (too many mountains, etc), so it seems of little
strategic importance whether it was cleared in late '44 vs spring '45.

Also, the French were in no mood to fiddle around in Italy while the
US and Commonwealth troops were busy fighting in France. Keeping most
of the French forces in Italy may not have been a realistic option.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Thu Feb 9 1995 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:55:36 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay

Dear Ken,

 Re "There is tangible evidence that someone thought there would be high
casualties. There isn't tangible evidence that casualties would be high."

I think the blood requirement estimates- 395,000 casualties by D+120-
are tangible. There was as much pressure to keep this figure low as to
overestimate it. In 1945, whole blood required glass bottles and
extensive refrigeration, two qualities that play hell with combat
logistics. The special handling, useful product-to-space ratios, and            extra fuel required for refrigeration would have led medical planners
to come in with as low an estimate as possible and still be on the safe         side.

As for your other points, I think the burden of proof is with you to
show why Okinawa in particular should not be regarded as a preview of
Olympic; you have a valid point concerning the possible duration of             the fighting, especially regarding Soviet entry, but US planners,               to the best of my knowledge, had no specific knowledge of Soviet
plans and certainly could not anticipate the speed and extent of
their victory; there is considerable evidence that the impact of
blockade alone (ie.-the pre-Aug 6 situation) produced little more
than a minority opinion for peace in the Japanese High Council.
I believe it is significant that the Emperor did not feel secure
in intervening until *after* the two bombs and the Soviet attack.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:16:36 +1100
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>Another for-what-it's-worth post:  Robert Westall, a British children's
>author, wrote _The Machine Gunners_ based on his memories of life during
>W.W.II.  It's essentially about boys who get obsessive collecting enemy
>artifacts during the war, ignoring air raid proprieties, competing with
>each other for the neatest find.
>
>I have no doubt that many of you would enjoy the book, it's avail. in pbk.
>
>Cheryl                                    [email-masked]

Hi Cheryl,
         My son had to read this book for school (I think it was the first
time he actually did something before he was forced to ).A short while later
we visited an old fellow who I was doing a trade with for some military
collection items and this fellow told us the story of how when he was a boy
,he and his friend used to collect items from planes.His father worked in
the railway marshalling yards in Newcastle and wrecked planes from the war
in New Guinea etc
on flat cars enroute to Sydney were often held there temporarily.Because of
his father the boys were allowed to play in the area. One day between them
they salvaged a machine gun just like in the novel and carried it home
through the streets on their shoulder.As they did so they became
increasingly frightened that they would get into trouble so when they got to
the friends home they hid it under the house and never touched it again.
         He showed me a recent press clipping where a group of builders
demolishing this house had uncovered the gun and there was great speculation
as to how it got there being rather large for a souveneir. The fear of his
boyhood was so entrenched that he was still afraid to call thge paper and
tell his story
because he was afraid he would get into trouble.When he was a boy he saw two
MP's chasing a soldier and when he looked like getting away they pulled out
their guns and shot the soldier.I cant remember whether these were US or
Australians but this incident left a lasting impression on him and his
friend hence their actions with the machine gun.
Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 17:23:12 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Will this guy ever shut up about Japan?

        Well, maybe, but not without at least one last post.  I figured that
having talked so much about something that began with the question of the
Japanese surrender and the decision to drop the atomic bomb, I might look at
least a little at the Japanese defensive preparations.  I don't plan to go into
this at real great length (I can hear the collective sigh of relief through the
terminal), but it seems to me a couple of factors had a direct bearing on the
casualties the Allies could expect to suffer in a landing.  One, of course, was
the terrain.  From a previous posting I saw here, it seems that from what
studies the US military had undertaken on this subject that much of the ground
where the fighting might occur, especially in the initial phase from the
beachead in, was similar to that encountered on Okinawa, with a lot of rocky
hills and even more vegetation.  I also recall that the beaches themselves were
projected to be a pretty tough proposition for direct assault.  That in itself
would seem to argue for relatively high casualties.
        The confidence felt by some of the Japanese leadership

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:49:40 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: North Africa

> A question to the list.

>      Did we have enough airpower on the ground to deal with the
>Japanese had we been able to get them launched and airborne? Or
>would it have been just a futile effort?

There was sufficient combat strength on the Islands to have blunted
the Japanese attack, thanks to Jack McKillop, we have a list of
the AAC strength on hand on 7 Dec 1941...

HAWAIIAN DEPARTMENT, US ARMY
----------------------------
Hawaiian Air Force, Hickam Fld, TH

  14th Pursuit Wg, Wheeler Fld, TH
    15th Pursuit Gp (Fighter), Wheeler Fld, TH
      45th Pursuit Sqd (Fighter) (P-36A)
      46th Pursuit Sqd (Fighter) (P-36A, P-40B)
      47th Pursuit Sqd (Fighter) (P-40B, P-36A)
      72d  Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (none)
    18th Pursuit Gp (Interceptor), Wheeler Fld, TH
       6th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B)
      19th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B, P-40C)
      44th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor), Bellows Fld, TH (P-40B, P-40C)
      73d  Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B)
      78th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B)

Unfortunately, I suspect that two necessary adjuncts to combat
strength were missing:

      1) The command and control to get the aircraft to the right
place at the right time (as the British had done so successfully in
the Battle of Britain)

      2) Training in the proper combat tactics to use against
significantly more maneuverable Japanese aircraft.  Those P36 and P40
pilots would have gone into combat believing that they were flying
the hottest A/C made, and that nothing the Japanese had could
compare.  Apparently the reports that Gen. Chennault sent to the US
concerning Japanese aircraft capabilities weren't taken seriously in
Washington, or provided to combat units for training purposes.

>Also in response to my earlier post concerning North Africa. Jack,
>thanks for the OB for the 12th AF. I would appreciate the OB for
>the 9th as well provided it is not too much trouble. In regards to
>combat loadout, shall we say a P-40 in a Harrassment/Interdiction
>mission. What would they have carried?

Typical load on a short range mission would be a 250lb or 500lb
bomb on the centerline, and the 6 .50 cal guns.  A longer range
mission would probably be flown with just the MGs and a drop tank.
I have also seen photographs of British and American P-40s in the
desert carrying:

      a.  2 250lb bombs sharing the centerline rack

      b.  1 500lb bomb on the centerline and 1 250lb bomb under
      each wing (heaviest bomb load seen)

      c.  1 drop tank on the centerline and 1 250lb bomb under
      each wing

      d.  4 40lb antipersonnel bombs under the wings and 1 or 2
      250lb bombs on centerline

      e.  6 40lb bombs under the wings

>Tim McFeely
>Ocean State FreeNet
>[email-masked]

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:09:14 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: OB for Hawaii

You wrote:

>
>On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Michael P LaForge wrote:
>
>> 4th Reconnaissance Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
>
>How can a Recon Sqd be classified as heavy vs light or medium? Is the
>designation related purely to the type of aircraft flown?
>
>Patrick
>*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!!
*!*!*!
>[email-masked]                         Great Minds have
Purpose
>Annandale, Virginia                               others have Dreams.
>                                                  -Washington Irving
>!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!
*!*!*
Exactly,

A heavy unit would be flying heavy bombers (B-17, B-24 and B-29), a
medium unit aircraft like B-25 and B-26 and Mosquito, and a light unit
F-5 (P-38), F-6 (P-51) and Spitfire PRUs.

Their missions would include, predominately, targets that corresponded
with those attacked by their more dangerous compatriots.

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:30:08 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv.

You wrote:

>
>>> Hi Joe,... do you know if there were any friendly fire casualties
with the
>>> converted design (I mean to initiated the "rounds") or was preemtive
thinking
>>> employed (a rarity) ?   -Al
>>
>>        "M24 Chaffee in Action" has a photo of troops milling around
an M24
>>with one fellow standing on the chassis.  There is a wooden sign
hanging from
>>a highlight which reads "American tank - M24". The caption reads:
"This
>>officer is instructing men of the 39th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry
>>Division on the recognition points of the M24.  The torsion bar
suspension
>>of the M24 gave it a "German" look and to avoid cases of mistaken
identity
>>M24s toured various units to familiarize troops with the Chaffee."
There
>>was no mention of any "accidents" so it may have been purely
preventive
>>in nature.
>>
>>        To go back to the original article, did you mean M59 or M5?
The
>>"In Action" book states that the M5 Stuart (not to be confused with
the
>>M3 Stuart!) was replaced by the M24.
>>
>>        I'll post some more info on the M24 as time permits.
>>--
>>Joe Barone
>
>C. Province wrote "M59" in his book. There is no other mention to
compare for
>typos, and I am not familiar with the models available at the time. If
there
>was such a thing as the M59, and it could be converted only with great
>difficulty, I would buy into the M5 idea. But if an M59 existed and
could
>be easily converted, perhaps both were converted.
>
>-Alan
>
>Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
>ACC - Lippitt - URI
>Kingston, RI  02881
>
>American Legion, Post 102
>I am the NRA.
>
>
I think you have missed the point on "conversion".  The article is
discussing the conversion of a unit from using one vehicle (the M5
Stuart light tank) to the use of a replacement vehicle (the M24 Chaffee
light tank).  It wasn't meant to indicate that the M5s were physically
converted to M24s.

I have no idea what an M59 might be, but as it is historical fact that
the M24 was introduced in the European theater in 1945 to replace the
obsolete M5, I suspect that the M59 published is a typo.

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 19:56:19 -0500
From:    Robert Heard <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

I was about to post a question on the same topic. In John Tolands book "The
Last 100 Day" there is a short chapter (14 - The Shell House) concerning this
incident. It seems the raid succeeded in the destruction of Gestapo records
concerning the Danish resistance. However one of the fighters crashed short
of the target spilling its bombs onto a girls schools. The next wave of bombers
dropped their loads into the smoke thinking this was the target. Almost all of
the prisoners in the target building escaped(only 6 of 32 died), but at the
girls school the death toll was 83 children, 20 nuns and 3 fireman.
My question is: does anyone know of other references concerning this incident?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 10 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, HQ 308th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) moves from Kunming to Hsinching; the 35th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, Fourteenth AF, based at Chanyi with F-5s, sends a flight to operate
from Chengkung (another flight is at Chihkiang).

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 5 B-25s destroy the Laihka
Bridge; 4 others hit the Namsang Bridge, with poor results; 9 P-47s knock out
approaches to the Pa-mao Bridge while 8 others destroy half of the bridge at
Inailong; 15 P-47s support ground forces in the Mongmit area, concentrating
on Japanese positions S of Myitson; 76 fighter-bombers attack troops and
supply areas at Panglong, Namsangsok, Namtu, Kutkai, Mong Yaw, Mongmit,
Ho-mong, Man Pwe, Namsam, and Loiya. Again transports fly 500+ sorties to
forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 825: 9 of 164 B-17s carry out the first DISNEY mission (Royal Navy
rocket-boosted concrete piercing bombs) against the U-boat pens at Ijmuiden,
the Netherlands visually; 140 hit the secondary target, the oil storage depot
at Dulmen, Germany using Micro H; and 1 hits Lingen, a target of opportunity;
5 B-17s fly a screening mission; 5 B-17s are damaged. Escorting are 102 of
106 P-51s without loss. 3 of 6 P-51s fly a scouting mission and 20 of 21
P-51s escort photo reconnaissance aircraft over Germany. 102 of 104 P-51s fly
a strafing mission in the Steinhuder Lake area but abort because of bad
weather; 2 P-51s are lost.
  Mission 826: 1 B-17 and 11 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and
Germany during the night; 1 airman is KIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 320+ bombers of the 9th
Bombardment Division attack communications centers at Kempen, Horrem, and
Euskirchen, vehicle center and depot at Munstereifeland at Berg-Gladbach, and
several casual targets including rail bridge at Bullay; fighters escort the
bombers, fly patrols and armed reconnaissance, bomb bridges, attack railroad
cars and other targets, and support the US VIII and XII Corps in the Prum
area on the Prum River and in the bridgehead area E of the Sauer River NW of
Echternach, Luxembourg. In France, HQ 416th Bombardment Group (Light) and the
668th and 670th Bombardment Squadrons (Light) move from Melun to Athies
Airfield, Laon with A-26s; the 39th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron,
Ninth AF, based at St Amand with F-5s, sends a flight to operate from Jarny
(another flight is at Le Culot, Belgium).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather prevents bombing;
12 B-24s drop supplies in Yugoslavia while P-38s fly reconnaissance and
escort missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 9/10
Feb, A-20s and A-26s hit railroads, lights, and movement in the Po Valley and
Brenner area and bomb docks at La Spezia; weather cancels all but 2 medium
bomber missions; however, the B-25s cut bridges at Palazzuolo sull' Oglio and
Romano di Lombardia; fighter-bombers concentrate on railroads in NE Italy,
and destroy numerous vehicles in a truck park in the Mantua area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 10 Guam Island-based B-24s bomb Okimura on Haha
Jima Island; 6 P-38s escort a photo mission and fly fighter a sweep over Iwo
Jima Island. 17 B-24s from Guam, with P-38 escort, pound Iwo Jima in the late
afternoon, and 9 more make single bomber harassment strikes on the island
during the night of 10/11 Feb.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 29: 118 B-29s from the Mariana
Islands are dispatched to hit the Nakajima aircraft plant at Ota, Japan; 84
hit the primary target and 14 hit other targets; they claim 21-15-26 Japanese
aircraft; 12 B-29s are lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Brigadier General
Frederick H Smith Jr becomes Commanding General V Fighter Command.
  On Luzon, B-24s again blast Japanese gun positions while P-51s and P-38s,
supporting ground forces hit communications targets in the Bayambang-Santa Fe
area, while B-25s in the area blast villages where vehicles are hidden;
B-24s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers completely saturate the S part of Bataan
Peninsula with bombs during morning and afternoon attacks, thoroughly
pummelling defenses and forces. P-47s on a fighter sweep over Formosa claim
10 aerial victories. HQ 312th Bombardment Group (Light) and the 386th and
387th Bombardment Squadrons (Light) move from Tanauan, Leyte Island to
Mangaldan, Luzon with A-20s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

10/0135Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:56:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: DISNEY Project

For those of you who read the daily USAAF chronology, you would have seen
the following entry for Saturday, 10 FEB 45:

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 825: 9 of 164 B-17s carry out the first DISNEY mission (Royal Navy
rocket-boosted concrete piercing bombs) against the U-boat pens at Ijmuiden,
the Netherlands visually.

The purpose of this post is to describe the DISNEY project.

The concrete reinforced E-boat and U-boat pens were impervious to the 2,000
pound (907 kg) bombs carried by B-17s and B-24s.  The Eighth AF became
involved in the development of a large bomb with rockets motors in the
tail.  When dropped in a conventional mode at 5,000-feet (1,524 m) above
ground level, the rocket motors would start so that the bomb had a velocity
of 2,400 feet per second (732 meters per second) when impacting the target
and could pierce 20-feet (6.1 m) of concrete before exploding.  The bomb
was too long to carry in the bomb bays of the B-17s and B-24s and only the
Flying Fortress had the racks and necessary strength to carry it
externally.  Each bomb weighed 4,500-pounds (2,041 kg) so the range of the
B-17 was restricted.

The first trial was held against a captured massive concrete structure at
Watten, France.  The first actual mission was flown on 10 Feb; 9 B-17s,
each with four bombs (two under each wing), attacked Ijmuiden from 20,000
feet (6,096 m).  Photo reconnaissance later showed that only one bomb had
hit the target but the damage was encouraging.  Only one more mission was
flown with these bombs because of poor weather and Allied advances which
made additional raids unnecessaary.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 320th Fighter Squadron

Peter Trott writes:
 >
 >My Dad was inducted into the Army Air Corp in 1942, and eventually assigned
 >to the 320th Fighter Squadron at Westover Field.  While there, his artistic
 >abilities were found out, and he spent much of his first three months with
 >the 320th painting nose art on P-47s.  He was then sent, on detached
 >service, to the gunnery school at Suffolk Air Base in the middle of Long
 >Island, and after some time there, he was sent overseas on detached service
 >to the 321st Bomb Group, first in Corsica, then Italy.
 >
 >Question: Did the 320th Fighter Squadron ever see overseas duty?  If so,
 >where were they on D-Day?  The reason I ask is that I got Dad to paint
 >a piece of nose art on the back of an A-2 bomber jacket for me, and the
 >painting includes a P-47 with invasion stripes.  (It actually turns out
 >to be more of a portrait of the P-47, diving with guns blazing, then
 >a piece of nose art...)  But the invasion stripes got me to wondering
 >if Dad's nominal outfit ever did make it overseas.

SNIP   SNIP

Peter,

The 320th Fighter Squadron was activated at Mitchel Field, Hempstead, Long
Island, New York on 19 Aug 42 assigned to the 326th Fighter Group.
Assigned to the I Fighter Command, First Air Force, the 326th became part
of the air defense force for the New York City area in addition to being a
P-47 operational training unit (OTU).  Later in Aug 42, the 320th moved to
Laguardia Airport in Queens, New York City until moving to Bradley Field,
WIndsor Locks, Connecticut on 1 Sep 42.  The 320th then moved to Westover
Field, Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts on 1 Nov 42.  The squadron again moved
to Mitchel Field on 28 Oct 43 and then to Suffolk County AAFld, Westhampton
Beach, New York on 8 Jan 44.  After this last move, the group became a P-47
replacement training unit training individual pilots until the group and
squadron were inactivated on 10 Apr 44.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:09:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

Bruno Wroblewski writes regarding Ascension Island:
 >
 >Thanks for the info:- every little bit helps :)
 >I'm amazed at how little information on the island's activities I've
 >been able to find over the years. For example, when I was preparing to
 >go there in the 1950's, all I had to go on was one short article in
 >the National Geographic! It's a shame how little there is on such an
 >interesting place.
 >
 >        Bruno

There is a little about Ascension Island and the Air Transport
Command in THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II, VOlume Seven,
SERVICES AROUND THE WORLD.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:21:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RCAF Units In The RAF "Tiger Force"

 >Great synopsis from Jack McKillop on "Tiger Force".  But I
 >have a question:  my Dad was part of the 6th Bomb Group,
 >in 424 Squadron, and he mentioned several times that they
 >had received all the necessary shots and were ready to
 >ship out to the Pacific when VJ Day came.  Yet your list
 >does not include 424 Squadron.  Does that mean that
 >personnel were being reassigned, or was 424 Squadron being
 >sent outside of Tiger Force?
 >
 >Another question:  If I wanted to learn everything about the
 >6th Bomb Group, and 424 Squadron, where would I go?
 >
 >Thanks, Jack, for your most informative post!
 >
 >Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |

Alan,

According to the information I have, No 424 (Bomber) Squadron was
one of the four RCAF bomber squadrons that were retained in the UK
as part of RAF Bomber Command's Strike Force after VE Day.  For a
time, the four squadrons (No. 424, 427, 429 and 433) were used as
troop transports between Britain and Italy.  No 424 Squadron
remained at Skipton-on-Swale, Yorkshire until being disbanded on 15
Oct 45; from Nov 43, it was assigned to No. 6 (RCAF) Group but was
reassigned to No 1 (RAF) Group, RAF Bomber Command on 30 Aug 45.
>From Jan 45 until being disbanded, the squadron had Lancaster B Mk
I's and III's.

Could it be that individuals were being reassigned to the Pacific
rather than the whole squadron.  I think that is the way the USAAF
did it; if you had the right number of "points" you came home and
got ready for the Pacific.

My source is a book I purchased at Toronto IAP about 12-13 years
ago.  The book is RCAF SQUADRONS AND AIRCRAFT by S. Kostenuk and J.
Griffin.  It is Historical Publication 14 by the Canadian War
Museum, Nation Museum of Man, National Museums of Canada and was
published by Samuel Stevens of Sarasota and Hakkert & Company of
Toronto, 1977.  ISBN is 0-88866-577-6.  The addresses for the
publisher is:

A.M. Hakkert Ltd
554 Spadina Crescent
Toronto, ONT M5S 2J9

and

Samuel Stevens & Co
3807 Bond Place
Sarasota, FL 33580

Enjoy!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 22:20:28 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Chris!
>
> I think you are absolutely correct. For those in a combat
> situation, you have to tune out the horror of war to remain sane, it
> seems to me, and also hate your enemy.
>
My favorite area of study is air combat, and it was a universal
experience, at least in the european air war that fighter pilots often
suffered different kindsof nervous breakdowns, depending on what
emotional barriers they sit up to keep their sanity.  German pilots
became "flown out" as they put it, americans became "flak happy".  Many
became superstitiuous and ritualistic.  One of the best TV documentarys
you can find is "A Fighter Pilot's Story" by Quentin Aanensin.  He
watched the pilots in his tent get killed off one by one until he was
alone.  The end finally came for him when he went on leave to visit his
folks in Minnesota.  He was sent out to shoot a gopher who was raiding
his dad's vegatable garden.  He shot the animal with a rifle, and as it
flopped around on the ground, he started crying.  He couldn't kill
anymore.  He was burnt out on killing.  His emotional safeguards
had broken down.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:34:14 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII DIARY

Sea-sickness.

Hence the naval expression -- "Heave, too!"

:-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:40:50 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

In combat, it is less a question of "tuning out a horror of war",
so much as tuning out a horror of oneself geting killed
or wounded.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:44:50 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <[email-masked]>
Subject: MED: Local VFW Honors Four Chaplains

[A ceremony invoked] the memory of four chaplains who perished at sea 52
years ago today [Feb. 3, 1995].  As Taps was played, 11 members of the Sunbury
VFW Post #8736 saluted the fallen men....The ceremony, held Saturday at the
village square's Veterans Memorial, honored the four chaplains who gave
their life preservers to others and then went down with the troopship, U.S.S.
Dorchester....
        "We have been having this ceremony since 1984 because the
names of these four heroic first lieutenants should be remembered," said
Jasper Pasini, drill team captain....The chaplains who went down with the
ship were: George Fox, a Methodist Minister from Altoona, PA, who also was
a highly decorated veteran of World War I; Alexander Good, a Jewish rabbi,
from Brooklyn, NY; Clark Poling, a Protestant minister of the First
Reformed Church from Columbus, OH; and John Washington, a Roman Catholic
priest from New Jersey...."

Retyped without permission from _The Sunbury [OH] News_, Thursday Feb. 9, 1995

Cheryl                                    [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Feb 1995 to 9 Feb 1995
***********************************************