Subject: WWII-L Digest - 6 Feb 1995 to 7 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 00:01:16 -0500

There are 62 messages totalling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: BISMARK (2)
  2. WWII Music
  3. MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction (3)
  4. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC (2)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 02-07-95
  6. ME-262 (5)
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-FEB-1945
  8. GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP (2)
  9. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45 (2)
 10. Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole (4)
 11. [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45 (3)
 12. Ref: Akira-contact me please
 13. Help!-Re: [INF] USAAF 6 FEB 45
 14. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (7)
 15. USA Air Corps in North Africa
 16. INFO: Gestapo and SD (4)
 17. WEAP: More 25mm Stuff
 18. Japanese Peso (3)
 19. e-mail info
 20. 3rd Army Chronology - 05Feb45
 21. Enola Gay Exhibit (3)
 22. WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb (2)
 23. ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT
 24. unmentioned victims
 25. admin (sorry)
 26. Farewell BBs
 27. A "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit
 28. ADMIN:Bill Huber
 29. Marine Corps History
 30. North Africa
 31. DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties (pt 2 of 2)
 32. INF: Operation Coronet Casualties
 33. WEAP-Napalm

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 00:18:15 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BISMARK

Please, the correct spelling is Bismarck. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:23:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Music

Richard...
        'Glad that Airborne story warmed your frosty morning.
Dare I mention, it was over 50F here today in Victoria, B.C.  Mild weather
was the main reason we moved from Toronto, Ont., west to Canada's far
Pacific shore.

Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:29:16 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

"Hitler knew nothing about the Final Solution..."
!
Difficult for any rational person to repeat such a theory.
Considering the blueprint for the extermination of the Jews was clearly
laid out over a decade earlier in Adolph Hitler's charming book of
futurism -- MEIN KAMPF.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:49:29 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Terry Lindell...
        Yes, aside from the vulgarity of those lyrics, it has always
intrigued me that such a commentary on Mr Hitler's gonad deficiency
later proved to be factual (if the Soviet autopsy is to be beleived).
I
I have wondered, how could such a thing have been known to the rough
soldiery early in the war?  Wondered, too, if it was an example of
MI6 (British Secret Intelligence Service) "leaking" some, ahem, private
information -- which got picked up and used in a soldiers' parody song.
On the other hand, maybe it was just one of those coincidences...

Regards -- S.A.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:49:35 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Yes, thank you, terry.
I would appreciate knowing that Military History address.

D.S.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-07-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/07 Wed.  Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Submarine RO-55, by destroyer escort THOMASON (DE-203),
              Philippine Islands area,
              15 d. 27'N., 119 d. 25'E.
             Coast defense vessel No. 53, by submarine BERGALL
              (SS-320), South China Sea,
              12 d. 04'N., 109 d. 22'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 06:42:45 -0500
From:    James Vaughan <[email-masked]>
Subject: ME-262

Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?

Incidentally, I saw one of these aircraft at the Air and Space Museum in
Washington, DC about a month ago and the design and construction looked like
a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
figures of the plane.

Jim Vaughan         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 07:41:22 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-FEB-1945

On 08-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 1st Army begins Operation Veritable to clear
the region between the Maas and Rhine Rivers. The British XXX Corps attacks
from the line Nijmegen-Mook, meeting light resistance except on the right
but is hampered by mines and the flooded terrain. The Canadian 2nd Division
overruns Wyler while the British 15th Division takes Kranburg. In the U.S.
1st Army sector, the 78th Division continues its attacks on Schmidt. In the
3rd Army sector, the 8th and 87th Division reach Olzheim and Ober Mehlen.
The 90th Division continues its attacks to break the Siegfried Line. The
6th Armoured Division widens and reinforces the bridgehead over the Our. In
the French 1st Army sector, the U.S. 2nd Armoured Division reaches
Fessenheim. The 1st Division moves south along the Rhine towards Chalampe,
taking Blodelsheim.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Ukraine Front restores its position southwest in
the Lake Velencei area.

Philippines - The U.S. 1st Cavalry Division mops up in the eastern suburbs
of Manila. The 37th Division reinforces the bridgehead south of the Pasig
River. The 40th Division takes a large part of McSevney Point and holds
against a series of Japanese counterattacks. The I Corps takes Lupao. The
38th Division continues a two-pronged attack against Zigzag Pass but is
still stubbornly opposed. In the 8th Army sector, the 11th Airborne
Division makes slow progress against Nichols Field.

Burma - The British 36th Division establishes a bridgehead over the Shweli
near Myitson.

The Homefront
-------------
Axis Prisoners - Thre are now 359,258 war prisoners in the U.S. - 305,876
Germans, 50,561 Italians and 2,820 Japanese.

Coach Signed - Arthur McBride, owner of the proposed Cleveland professional
team in the new All-American Football Conference, has announced the signing
of Lt. Paul Brown, USN, as the new coach of the team.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:00:03 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:49:18 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>> It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb projects
>> in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could provide
>> more definite info?
>
>    This is very true, however the Germans were far more along with
>their project than were the Japanese. The Japanese didn't really
>become seriously involved in this project until 1944 and even then
>only perfunctorily. The reason was that they had no scientists that
>possessed the expertise found in Germany, Britain or the US.

I'd say it was more the lack of technological base--they had plenty of
sharp minds on that side of the Pacific.  The last issue but one of
Scientific American profiled a scientist who saw westerners get the
credit for most of his discoveries (more or less innocently, and as a
result of western preconceptions, not plagiarism).  There were others
who would have been able to do the job, but the technological base for
putting it together just wasn't there in Japan.

In contrast, the Germans went down the wrong road from the start *and*
lost many of their best figures *before* the war started.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:39:24 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME-262

On Tue, 07 Feb 95, Jim Vaughan wrote:

>Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
>realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
>read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?
>
>Incidentally, I saw one of these aircraft at the Air and Space Museum in
>Washington, DC about a month ago and the design and construction looked like
>a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
>figures of the plane.

Also, does anyone have easy access to the monthly production figures of
the Me-262, Me-163, V-1 and V-2?  Or know where I can access this info?

Thanks.

Emery Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:19:42 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

February 8, 1945
D-Day +247

-3rd Army bridging units measured the speed of the currents in the Moselle
 at 16 ft/sec. There were losses in the river crossing.

-The main effort of the 3rd Army was still concentrated on Prum, coordinated
 with 1st Army to the north.

-VIII Corps, 4th Inf Div captures Condrenbret and Hermespand. 87th Inf Div,
 345th Inf Regiment captures Olzheim using tank destroyers with direct fire
 on 4 pill boxes to knock them out.

-XX Corps, 26th Inf Div captures fortifications in Fraulautern and
 Saarlautern-Roden.

-XIX TAC flew 314 sorties claiming 30 locomotives, 452 railroad cars, 43
 tanks and armored vehicles, 173 other vehicles, and 153 occupied buildings.
 3 planes were lost.

-The 1st sled-dog team arrived for medevac use. The snows were mostly melted
 by this time.

 "Against Montgomery's objections, Eisenhower had sided with me on the
necessity for closing to the Rhine the full length of our Allied front
before attempting to cross that river in strength. Although Ike had not yet
rejected our U.S. plan for double-envelopment of the Ruhr with a Rhine
river crossing near Frankfurt, it was generally assumed in SHAEF that
Monty held the inside track on his single-pronged offensive. But even if
Monty were to have his way on a single thrust east of the Rhine, my views
on closing all the way to the river were valid. For if we were to concentrate
all our forces on the north and hold lightly to the Swiss border, it was
essential that we could defend a line where we could not be hurt by enemy
spoiling attack. For this purpose, I argued, there was no better barrier
than the Rhine. Ike concurred for he was no less anxious than I to rid
the west bank of the Rhine of Germans before venturing across it.

 No less alluring was the opportunity that beckoned us in the Rhineland
for destruction of the enemy there. By February, 85 German divisions had
been committed west of the river. If they could be isolated and destroyed,
the enemy would be powerless to man the far bank in strength. Our primary
objective, after all, lay not in Berlin nor any other terrain feature;
rather we were primarily intent on destruction of the German army. For
once the Wehrmacht had been splintered, those other objectives would fall
easily into our hands." -Gen. Omar Bradley

Sources: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province
         _A Soldier;'s Story_ by Gen. Omar N. Bradley
Typos: mine...

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 07:48:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Hello, Tim!

> I beleive Dole was serving with the 10th Mountain Division in Italy
> during the time he was wounded.  Please correct me if I am wrong but
> that is what my memory tells me.  TAS

    This is correct. His injuries kept in the hospital for years
after the war. He lost a kidney, and the loss of usage of his left
hand and arm as already pointed out.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

 >
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# [email-masked]                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:00:45 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME-262

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995, James Vaughan wrote:

> Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
> realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
> read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?

About 1300. The shortage of pilots was as severe as that of fuel. At the
end of the war the production centers adopted a policy of "If you need a
plane, then come and get it." Most Me 262s were never flown.

> a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
> figures of the plane.

Me 262A-1a:

Two 900kg Junkers Jumo 004B engines. Total engine life 25hrs, to be
overhauled every 10hrs. 2570 liter of fuel, 87 octane mixed with oil.
Engines could not be restarted above 4000m.

Wing span 12.48m, length 10.61m, height 3.84m. Empty weight 4420kg, max
loaded weight 6396kg.

Top speed 870km/h at 6000m, 827km/h at sea level, 820km/h at 10000m.
not-to-exceed (diving) speed 960km/h.  Single-engine safety speed 290km/h,
normal touchdown speed 200km/h.  Service ceiling 11450m.  Initial climb
1200m/min, 660m/min at 6000m, 330m/sec at 9000m. Climb to 6000m in 6.8min,
to 9000m in 13.1min, to 10000m in 26min.  Roll rate 360 degrees in 3.8sec
at 645km/h and 1525m.  Range 1050km at 9000m.

Armed with four 30mm MK 108 cannon, 600rds/min, muzzle velocity 505m/sec.
Two with 100 rounds and two with 80 rounds.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:24:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 7 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s off to Kataoka, Shimushu Island abort
the  mission when all aircraft accidentally drop bombs prior to the bombing
run. 4 B-25s weather abort.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 11 P-51s knock out a bridge
at Hengshan; 34 P-40s hit river, road, and rail traffic from Kweiyi to
Hengshan, from Chiuchiang to Wuhu, from Siaokan southward, in the area S of
Tsinan, and N of Tehsien, and from Wan Mai-Lo, Burma to Luang Prabang, French
Indochina. 2 fighter-bombers hit the warehouse area at Kweihsien, China.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 34: 67 B-29s are dispatched to hit Saigon, French Indochina; 44
bomb the primary target (11 drop prematurely and 33 hit a residential
section), 19 hit Pnom Penh, a target of opportunity, and 2 bomb the last
resort target, the marshalling yard at Martaban, Burma; they claim 0-0-1
Japanese aircraft; 1 B-29 is lost.
  Mission 35: 64 B-29s are dispatched to hit the Rama VI bridge at Bangkok,
Thailand; 58  bomb and effect the collapse of most of middle span of the
bridge (this is the 3d strike at this target) and destroy the NE approach; 1
B-29 bombs the Martaban, Burma marshalling yard; no B-29s are lost.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 11 B-25s attack tanks and
troops at Man Namman; 50 P-47s support forces preparing to cross the Shweli
River in the Myitson area; 40+ P-47s and P-40s attack troops and supply areas
at Nawngkalio, Man Li, Hsunkwe, Nawnghkio, Loi Hkam, Panghsapye, Na-lang,
Wingnang, and Pang Eng Hkye. 464 transport sorties are flown to advanced
bases and frontline areas. In India, the 5th and 6th Fighter Squadrons
(Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, move from Fenny and Asansol respectfully
to Hay with P-47s; the detachment of the 127th Liaison Squadron (Commando),
2d Air Commando Group, operating from Cox's Bazar with UC-64s and L-5s
returns to base at Kalaikunda; and the 317th Troop Carrier Squadron
(Commando), 2d Air Commando Group, moves from Kalaikunda to Palel with C-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 822: 295 B-17s and 80 P-51s are recalled when they encounter a
weather front rising to 30,000 feet (9,144 m) over the North Sea; 1 B-17
attacks Essen; no bombers are lost. Escort is provided by 41 of 80 P-51s
without loss. 36 of 36 P-51s patrol the Siegen, Germany area without loss.
  Mission 823: 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany during
the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 16 B-26s strike the rail siding at
Lipp, Germany; weather cancels other operations. The 39th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, Ninth AF, moves from Valenciennes to Amand, France
with F-5s (first mission is 16 Mar).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 680 B-17s and B-24s bomb oil
refineries at Moosbierbaum, Schwechat, and the Lobau, Floridsdorf, Korneuburg
and Kagran refineries in the Vienna, Austria area; oil storage at Pula,
Yugoslavia; shipyard and harbor of Trieste, Italy; the town of Bratislava,
Czechoslovakia; Zwolfaxing Airfield, Austria; and several scattered targets
of opportunity; 274 P-38s and P-51s provide escort. 8 B-24s drop supplies in
Yugoslavia. 18 P-51s strafe the Zeltweg Airfield in Austria and the
surrounding area while in Yugoslavia, 10 P-38s sweep the Zagreb-Karlovac-
Sisak area. Other P-38s fly reconnaissance and escort operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 6/7
Feb, A-20s bomb lights and movement over extensive areas of N Italy; during
the day B-25 blasts cut bridges at Bodrez and Lavis, a viaduct at Lavis, and
block rail lines at San Michele all'Adige and Mantua; XXII Tactical Air
Command P-47s destroy 4 railroad bridges and damage another severely in the
NE and C Po Valley and Brenner Pass, and blast dumps and sugar refineries in
the Mantua, Brescia, and Reggio Emilia areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 6 B-24s from Saipan Island bomb the town of
Okimura on Chichi Jima Island; 8 B-24s hit AA positions and radio and radar
installations on Iwo Jima Island, while 2 others bomb the airfield in Woleai
Atoll in the Caroline Islands. From Angaur Island 20 B-24s bomb Silay and
Talisay Airfields on Negros Island and 1 bombs Opon airfield on Mactan Island
in the Philippine Islands. 9 B-24s on snooper raids from Saipan Island during
the night of 7/8 Feb, bomb Iwo Jima airfields.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Formosa, B-24s,
with P-38 support hit targets of opportunity at Heito Airfield and other
points (after weather prevents the bombing of Takao) and B-25s, with P-51
cover, fly several sweeps, claiming a sub sunk, a tanker set afire, a large
motor launch sunk, other shipping damaged, and several vehicles and an
airplane destroyed. On Luzon Island, A-20s, supporting ground operations,
attack the hills W of Clark Field. B-24s hit Bago and Mandaue on Negros
Island. In Borneo, other B-24s bomb Tawau and-in another mission-Miri
Airfield, Tutong oil refinery pump station and power house. The 341st Fighter
Squadron, 348th Fighter Group, moves from Tanauan, Leyte Island to San
Marcelino, Luzon with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

07/1423Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:35:27 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45

Um, Sid?

>  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s off to Kataoka, Shimushu Island abort
>the  mission when all aircraft accidentally drop bombs prior to the bombing
>run. 4 B-25s weather abort.

>  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
>  Mission 34: 67 B-29s are dispatched to hit Saigon, French Indochina; 44
>bomb the primary target (11 drop prematurely and 33 hit a residential
>section), 19 hit Pnom Penh, a target of opportunity, and 2 bomb the last

Was this premature evacuation (of bombs) common? What happened to the bombs,
did they strike unintended targets?

Inquireng minds wanna know. Yes, I read your posts. Informative & enjoyable.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:20:59 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ref: Akira-contact me please

Could Akira please contact me please.  Sorry to waste 300 people's bit
space but I couldn;t get in touch any other way.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:42:33 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Help!-Re: [INF] USAAF 6 FEB 45

I accidently deleted the [INF] posting for 6 FEB 45! can someone send me
another copy? Thanks in advance!-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
[email-masked]   |

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:08:10 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>    There are documented accounts where both sides did this sort of
>thing. To my knowledge, it was not common practice, but things in the
>air did happen.
>
>    Hope this helps.
>

I recall reading an article about Francis Grabeski (sp?) in which he was
dogfighting with a German airman in a FW-190 while escorting some bombers.
The dogfight was the most vicious and desperate he had yet encountered.  He
was finally able to turn the situation arround and managed to terminally
damage the FW with a couple of burst to the engine.  As the canopy flew
off, Grabeski (sp?) thought to himself that this pilot was just too good
and if he managed to bail out, he knew that this pilot would end up
shooting down allied airmen.   Without a seconds hesitation, Grabeski (sp?)
aimed at the pilot, pulled the trigger and knocked the German airman back
into the burning FW.  Grabeski felt no remorse over this and said that he
would do it again if need be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:57:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USA Air Corps in North Africa

 >I have several questions and was wondering if the dedicated List members
 >might be able to help or at least point me in the right direction.
 >
 >1.) I was wondering if someone might have an order of battle for the Air
 >Corps in North Africa after Operation Torch? I am primarily interested in
 >fighter or fighter/bomber units equipped with aircraft such as P-40's etc.
 >

Tim,

This is the organization of the Twelfth Air Force on 1 Feb 43.  The Twelfth
was in NW Africa while the Ninth Air Force was in Egypt.  Do you want the
org chart for the Ninth?

                              Twelfth Air Force
                                  Algeria

XII Air Support Command, Algeria
   33d  Fighter Group, Thelepte, Tunisia
     58th, 59th and 60th Fighter Squadrons, Thelepte, Tunisia (P-40)
   47th Bombardment Group (Light), Youks-les-Bains, Algeria
     84th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), Youks-les-Bains, Algeria
       (A-20)
     85th and 97th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), Thelepte, Tunisia (A-20)
   81st Fighter Group, Thelepte, Tunisia
     91st and 92d Fighter Squadrons, Thelepte, Tunisia (P-39)
     93d Fighter Squadron, Port Lyautey, French Morocco (P-39)
  350th Fighter Group, Oujda, French Morocco
     345th, 346th and 347th Fighter Squadrons, Oujda, French Morocco (P-39,
       P-400)

XII Bomber Command, Constantine, Algeria
  5th Bombardment Wing, Biskra, Algeria
      1st Fighter Group, Biskra, Algeria
       27th, 71st and 94th Fighter Squadrons, Biskra, Algeria (P-38)
     14th Fighter Group, Berteaux, Algeria
       48th and 49th Fighter Squadrons, Berteaux, Algeria (P-38)
     68th Observation Group, Oujda, French Morocco
       16th, 111th and 122d Observation Squadrons, Oujda, French Morocco
         (A-20, P-39)
       154th Observation Squadron, Oujda, French Morocco (A-20) (NOTE:
         Detachemntat Yourks-les-Bains, Algeria)
     97th Bombardment Group (Heavy), Biskra, Algeria
       340th, 341st, 342d and 414th  Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), Biskra,
         Algeria (B-17)
    301st Bombardment Group (Heavy), Ain M'lila, Algeria
       32d, 352d, 353d and 419th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), Ain M'lila,
         Algeria (B-17)
  7th Fighter Wing, Chateaudun, Algeria
     17th Bombardment Group (Medium), Telergma, Algeria
       34th, 37th, 95th and 432d Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), Telergma,
         Algeria (B-26)
     82d  Fighter Group, Telergma, Algeria
       95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons, Telergma, Algeria (P-38)
    310th Bombardment Group (Medium), Berteaux, Algeria
       379th, 380th, 381st and 428th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium),
         Berteaux, Algeria (B-25)
    319th Bombardment Group (Medium), Telergma, Algeria
       437th, 438th, 439th and 440th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium),
         Telergma, Algeria (B-26)

XII Fighter Command, La Senia, Algeria
  31st Fighter Group, La Senia, Algeria
    307th Fighter Squadron, Maison Blanche, Algeria (Spitfire)
    308th Fighter Squadron, Tafaraoui, Algeria (Spitfire)
    309th Fighter Squadron, La Senia, Algeria (Spitfire)
  52d  Fighter Group, Telergma, Algeria
    2d, 4th and 5th Fighter Squadrons, Telergma, Algeria (Spitfire)

51st Troop Carrier Wing, Algiers, Algeria
  60th Troop Carrier Group, Relizane, Algeria
    10th Troop Carrier Squadron, Thiersville, Algeria (C-47)
    11th, 12th and 28th Troop Carrier Squadrons, Relizane, Algeria (C-47)
  62d  Troop Carrier Group, Nouvion, Algeria
    4th Troop Carrier Squadron, Casablanca, French Morocco (C-47)
    7th, 8th and 51st Troop Carrier Squadrons, Nouvion, Algeria (C-47)
  64th Troop Carrier Group, Blida, Algeria
    16th, 17th, 18th and 35th Troop Carrier Squadrons, Blida, Algeria (C-47)

3d Photographic Group, Algiers, Algeria
  12th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Algiers, Algeria (F-4)
  13th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Podington, England (F-5, L-4)
    (NOTE: Attached to 1st Bombardment Wing, Eighth Air Force)
  14th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Colorado Springs, Colorado
    (F-5) (NOTE: Attached to HQ Army Air Forces)
  15th Photographic Mapping Squadron, Algiers, Algeria (F-4) (NOTE: "A"
    Flight of air echelon only; "B" and "C" Flights of air echelon at Will
    Rogers Field, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)

5th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Algeris, Algeria (F-4) (NOTE:
  Attached to 3d Photo Group)

15th Bombardment Squadron (Light), Youks-les-Bains, Algeria (A-20)

 >2.) What would a combat loadout consist of for the above aircraft? I realize
 >different missions require different loadouts. What would be typical for
 >interdiction type missions?

Which aircraft and what was the mission?

 >Thanks in advance for any and all answers.
 >
 >Tim McFeely
 >Ocean State FreeNet
 >[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:00:40 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Terry -
I think it's his right arm he can't use.  I didn't know he only has one
kidney; I know he has suffered from kidney stones in the past, so I
guess he has to be really careful.

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:32:18 -0500
From:    Henry Herz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME-262

> >Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
> >realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
> >read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?
> >
> >Incidentally, I saw one of these aircraft at the Air and Space Museum in
> >Washington, DC about a month ago and the design and construction looked like
> >a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
> >figures of the plane.
>
> Also, does anyone have easy access to the monthly production figures of
> the Me-262, Me-163, V-1 and V-2?  Or know where I can access this info?
>
> Thanks.
>

The following comes out of the Campaign Analysis Booklet for the Avalon Hill
wargame Luftwaffe.  As you can see, total ME-262 production is barely more than
1000, so it seems unlikely they had over 1000 at war's end. Enjoy.

-Henry

FIGHTER AIRCRAFT (or aircraft used as fighters)

                  Yearly of Production
Type            1939    1940    1941    1942    1943     1944   1945     Total
Arado 234             0    0    0       0       0       150       64       214
Dornier 17         0       9       0       0    0       0       0            9
Dornier 217        0       0    0        157    207         0           0          364
Dornier 335        0    0          0       0       0        7      4            11
Focke-Wulf 190   0         0     228    1850    2171     7488   1630    13,376
Heinkel 162         0      0       0       0    0           0   116        116
Heinkel 219         0      0       0       0    11        195   62      268
Junkers 88           0    62      66     257     706     2513    355    3,964
Messers. 109    449     1667    2764    2657    6013    12807   2798    29,155
Messers. 110    156     1006     594     501     641      128      0    3,028
Messers. 163       0       0       0       0    0       327     37      364
Messers. 210       0    0         92      93      89       74           0          348
Messers. 262       0       0    0          0       0      564    730    1,294
Messers. 410       0       0    0          0     271      629      0       910
Tank 152               0           0       0       0       0       34     33            67
Tank 154               0           0       0       0    0           8      0         8
Totals       605        2,745   3,744   5,515   10,898  26,326  5,883   55,717

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:51:28 -0500
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

>From: William Lippert <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD
>Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:32:24 EST

>Thanks for your advice.  I'll definitely go get that Canaris book.  I've
>read it once but have forgotten about it.  When I went to get it months
>ago it was out.  I'll look for the SS-Alibei book.  As for the administration
>of the camps, both the SD and Gestapo were restricted on pain of death
>(probably only a little exaggeration here).  These two were controlled
>by Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner (I think).  But Himmler was smart
>enough not to put so much power in one person's hands so the administration
>of the camps fell to the Totenkopf division.  This is readily seen by the
>Death's Head on their collar insignia.  Thanks for the help and I'll let
>you know when I get this paper done.  Nothing like going to school to
>make me finish things.

>Bill Lippert

Hello, All!!

     I think I can clarify some misconceptions that have crept in above.

     The concentration camps were administered by the Economic Section
(Wirtshaft; sp?) of the SS. The actual personnel were carried on the
Waffen SS rolls, but they had no connection with the 2nd SS Panzer Division
Totenkopf after 1940.

     In 1940, Himmler was desperatly seeking manpower to flesh out the
3 divisions he was allotted to raise. He recruited/drafted many of the
younger, more fit personnel from the concentration camp guard batallions
into the Totenkopf Division. (Before the war, these units were Algemeine
SS [General SS] formations, not Waffen SS.) Their Deathshead collar tabs
reflects their origin in the camp guards, but they had no further offical
affiliation after they took to the field.

     Sometime in '39/40, the concentration camp guard battalions were
transferred to the Waffen SS, probably for two main reasons:

        A. As Waffen SS, they were not subject to the draft.

        B. The Waffen SS budget was carried on the Minister of the
                Interior's budget, and not on the Party's budget.

     Sometimes wounded Waffen SS men from the front were transferred to
a concentration camp guard battalion if it was felt they could still
render service, and a concentration camp guard would then be rotated
to the front. I don't think that this happened very often, however.

Sources:

     See George H. Stein's "The Waffen SS, Hitler's Elite Guard at
War", for details of the raising of the Totenkopf Division.

     "Soldiers Of Destruction", by Charles Syndor (sp?) also covers the
raising and deployment of the Totenkopf Division.

     "The Order Of The Death's Head", by Heinz Hoehne also details the
camp administration setup.

     All of the above is from memory (these books are at home), but I
think I got the basics down right.

                                                Regards
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:03:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45

 >>  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s off to Kataoka, Shimushu Island abort
 >>the  mission when all aircraft accidentally drop bombs prior to the bombing
 >>run. 4 B-25s weather abort.
 >
 >>  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
 >>  Mission 34: 67 B-29s are dispatched to hit Saigon, French Indochina; 44
 >>bomb the primary target (11 drop prematurely and 33 hit a residential
 >>section), 19 hit Pnom Penh, a target of opportunity, and 2 bomb the last
 >
 >Was this premature evacuation (of bombs) common? What happened to the bombs,
 >did they strike unintended targets?
 >
 >Inquireng minds wanna know. Yes, I read your posts. Informative & enjoyable.
 >
 >                                                                Steve
 >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 >Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
 >STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
 >Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
 >574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
 >Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
 >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Enquring,

Whenever there is a premature evacuation and you see a bunch of
planes dropping together, there is a very strong probability that
there was a lead crew and the aircraft behind the lead crew dropped
their bombs when the lead bombardier did.  So the lead bombardier
screwed up and a bunch of other guys followed his lead.  Hey, the
lead bombardier is a super star and we were just following orders!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:32:26 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

        While it may be more justifiable to shoot at enemy pilots
in parachutes using the logic that they may fight again, I would
like to bring the discussion toward the more dubious practices of
the British in which they would strafe enemy sea planes trying
to rescue *British* pilots, knowingly (via Ultra) sinking enemy
merchantmen filled with *British* POWs, and attacking clearly
marked enemy hospital ships.  It seems the postwar image of gallant
chivalry is totally misplaced.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Crap Game: Hey, Joe, what's happenin'?
  Big Joe: The Sherman is shot and nobody is moving that German tank!
Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:24:16 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: More 25mm Stuff

couldnt reach you directly.

**any info on range, effectiveness, quantity produced and penetration
 you.....**
Performance data for the AP cartridge is :
Cartridge Weight: 861 Grams
Projectile Weight: 320 grams
Muzzle velocity: 900-960 m/s
Carteidge Case index: 25X195R
No info on production, penetration or effectiveness.

No other info on the HEAT cartridge.

Source says the AP cartridge was in service at the beginning of WW-II
 but was not produced after the war's end.DST-1160G-514-78-VOL2 stands
 for a document prepared by the Foreign Science and Technology Center,
 which, in 1978, was under the US Army Materiel Development and
 Readiness Command, in turn under DoD S&T Intelligence Production
 Program. This document is/was unclassified and approved for public
 release, distribution unlimited.

Jim O'Neil  From the interrogation of a German General at the end
 of WW II:  "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that
 War is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

And from a Soviet General:  "The reason the American Army Does so well
 in war is that they refuse to follow their manuals or adhere to their
 training doctrines once conflict is opened."

"Let's Keep up the Good Work!" Graffitti on a poster of the above.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:37:14 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese Peso

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  07-Feb-1995 12:10pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Japanese Peso

    A student here brought to me a very interesting piece of currency which
    has got us both wondering what it really is.  He was told it was
    created during WWII but that is about all the info we have on it.

    The bill is 5 1/2" by 2 5/8" and printed on both side, head to foot.
    The front of the bill is very much a simplified knock off of the US one
    dollar bill.  The 'headline' says "The Japanese Government."  The upper
    two corners have an enlarged '1' inside a shield and the word 'PESO'
    across the '1.'  In the center (where George's face would be on the US
    One) is a more elaborate shield with a '1' in the center and the word
    'ONE' across the number.  Below the center shield is the statement 'ONE
    PESO' and below that are Japanese or Chinese letters.  To the left of
    the center shield is the image of a monument which appears to be a
    Greek-style plaza with a pyramid-like base topped with statues and an
    obelisk rising from the center.  To the right of the center shield is
    the word 'ONE' printed very light over an embedded water mark of what
    appears to be palms or tropical plants.  Just below are seven numbers
    which might be serial numbers.

    The reverse side of the bill again uses simplified knock off of the US
    Dollar for a border with 1's in the corners and the enlarged 1 with
    PESO in the center midway down each side.  To the left of center is a
    large unprinted circle to expose the water mark.  Center right has the
    word 'ONE' large in reverse with 'ONE PESO' overprinted.

    We have had a lot of fun speculating on the purpose of this bill
    (occupation money for use after capturing Panama, Mexico, the
    Philippines, or the US) but would really like something more concrete.
    Anybody out there have any ideas or leads or know what one of these
    puppies is worth today?

    Doug
    [email-masked]

Received:  07-Feb-1995 12:37pm

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:38:49 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: e-mail info

        I don't have any intention of starting a flame war over something as
insignificant as my e-mail problems.  My apologies for posting that to the
list, but this list is the only address I have to reach Joe Barone, and I know
that bounced messages create a big headache for the owner, so I wanted to
notify him as soon as possible.  All I can say is, if people are going to get
burned up about a paragraph regarding e-mail, I bet some of you must love my
300-line ranting and raving when its not a topic you're interested in....
        Anyway, mea culpa on that one.  Hopefully the gaffe will not be
repeated.

        Apologies

        Mike Yaklich

                "A small and weak nation, such as ours, does not what it
                wishes, but what it CAN."

                        Marshal Ion Antonescu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:14:57 -0500
From:    Matthew Savoie <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Tim,
        Yes, you are correct.  Senator Dole was serving in Italy with the
10TH MTN DIV.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew M. Savoie           |  "There is only one tactical principal that   |
Western New England College |    that remains unchanged.  It is to inflict  |
1215 Wilbraham Road         |    the maximum amount of death, wounds, and   |
Box 1830                    |    destruction in the minimum amount of time."|
Springfield, MA 01119       |              - General George S. Patton, Jr.  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:08:54 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME-262

They had over 1400 at the war's end (had built 586 at the end of 1944)
with only a few hundred serving (first ones in operations during late
spring and summer of 1944).

Hope this helps.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:09:57 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chronology - 05Feb45

Alan Wild <[email-masked]> writes:
> February 5, 1945
> -Tanks used by cavalry recon squadrons were being converted from M59 to
>  M24. These conversions not only created a faster, more maneuverable tank,
>  but also exchanged a new 75mm gun in place of the old 37mm.

        Squadron's "M24 in Action" indicates that the M24 had to
"make the rounds" to all the ETO troops so that they could familiarize
themselves with its appearance.  Until then, German and Allied armor
could be easily differentiated by looking at the roadwheel layout and
suspension system of the vehicle.  The M24 had roadwheels characteristic
of a Pzkw III so it was thought that troops might shoot at an M24.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:15:35 -0500
From:    Pat Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Peso

Sounds like occupation money from the Philippines.

I'm not sure of the value but I'd give you buck for it
(just kidding).  Sounds like a really good find.

patrick

--
Patrick D. Marsden            | Naval Research Laboratory    | Opinions are mine
Computational Physics, Inc.   | Code 7641                    | and mine alone.
Planetary Atmospheres Section | Washington, D.C.  20375      |    * RKBA *
(202)-404-8229                | [email-masked]  | Live Free or Die

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:11:09 +0100
From:    PERRIN Olivier <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

>     The concentration camps were administered by the Economic Section
>(Wirtshaft; sp?) of the SS. The actual personnel were carried on the
>Waffen SS rolls, but they had no connection with the 2nd SS Panzer Division
>Totenkopf after 1940.

The Amtsgruppe D of the SS Wirtschafts und Verwaltungs Hauptamt  (WVHA, SS
Economic and Administrative Department) was in charge of the concentration
camps and was divided into :
Amt I : Central Department
Amt II : Allocation of Labour
Amt III : Medical Administration
Amt IV : General Administration of Camps and Camp Staff.
The SS WVHA was part of the Allgemeine SS.

Hope this helps
O. PERRIN
Olivier PERRIN
Paris - FRANCE

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:31:04 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

Hello, Bill!

Glad I was able to help.

> Thanks for your advice.  I'll definitely go get that Canaris book.  I've
> read it once but have forgotten about it.  When I went to get it months
> ago it was out.  I'll look for the SS-Alibei book.  As for the administration
> of the camps, both the SD and Gestapo were restricted on pain of death
> (probably only a little exaggeration here).  These two were controlled
> by Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner (I think).

    Yes, Kaltenbrunner was Heydrich's successor.

But Himmler was smart
> enough not to put so much power in one person's hands so the administration
> of the camps fell to the Totenkopf division.

    That may have been because of its most famous commander, Theodor
Eicke, who was associated with establishment of the concentration
camps before accepting a field command, which was the 3rd SS
Totenkopf Division. It was Eicke more than anyone, who set the tenor
or established the environment in which prisoners were so harshly
treated.

 This is readily seen by the
> Death's Head on their collar insignia.  Thanks for the help and I'll let
> you know when I get this paper done.  Nothing like going to school to
> make me finish things.

    Would appreciate it. If there is anything else I can do, please
let me know.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:29:07 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken, can you disprove my statement?

Extrapolating from IwoJima and Okinawa yield losses form 200,000 to
25 million casualties, way above 60,000.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:27:33 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken, absolutism or elitism, in either direction, is no good.
I don't like how they organized the setup, got flack for how they
put it together and then caved in.  That is why they should be fired.
They put what they wanted on the exhibit and when other historians
disagreed they just canned the whole exhibit, is that the 'good'
thing to do Ken?  you tell me.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:35:40 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Then again, strategic bombing did not work in ending the war in europe,
and German production increased till the near end, so the ability of
the Army Air Corp to say the could end the war is still questionable.
I got a book that goes through the paper trail, and for taking Kyushu,
the given casualties are 50,000 for that island alone, also that
does not count taking the whole island, only the south plain so that
support for Coronet could be mounted.  The continueing combat between
US forces in the south and the Japanese forces in the north would have
continued to cause casualties as the US invaded the central plain north
of Tokyo, and I would estimate probably another 100,000 to 150,000 casualties
for that operation (landing 25 divisions , boy that is impressive) for
rough casualties to 200,000 for seizing two plains, one on the
south island and the important plain on the main island, but if the
Japanese did not surrender then, casualties would have continued to go up.

P.S. I will get the name of the book for Thursday.

John E. Kollar

Ken, does this suffice?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:38:28 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Hello, Ron!

Great post and it seems that I read this somewhere as well.

> I recall reading an article about Francis Grabeski (sp?) in which he was
> dogfighting with a German airman in a FW-190 while escorting some bombers.
> The dogfight was the most vicious and desperate he had yet encountered.  He
> was finally able to turn the situation arround and managed to terminally
> damage the FW with a couple of burst to the engine.  As the canopy flew
> off, Grabeski (sp?) thought to himself that this pilot was just too good
> and if he managed to bail out, he knew that this pilot would end up
> shooting down allied airmen.   Without a seconds hesitation, Grabeski (sp?)
> aimed at the pilot, pulled the trigger and knocked the German airman back
> into the burning FW.  Grabeski felt no remorse over this and said that he
> would do it again if need be.

    That doesn't surprise me. He made the statement, and I think he
was correct in doing so, that "we were there to do one thing and that
was to win." Implication being that killing the enemy by any means at
any time and at any place was justifiable.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:37:09 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

In this cronology--it says the 1st Dog Sled Team arrived--is this the
first dog sled team---in other words--the first to arrive on the
scene--or is it like the 1st Infantry Division.  Just curious.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:48:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Hello, Tim!

I have a taped interview he gave in which he barely discussed the
details of his many injuries. He really won't talk directly about the
way he was wounded or just what nature the wounds were. He will dodge
or try to dodge that question every time.

> I think it's his right arm he can't use.  I didn't know he only has one
> kidney; I know he has suffered from kidney stones in the past, so I
> guess he has to be really careful.

    You may be right. But it seems to me that it was his left. Next
time, I will pay closer attention to him and see which arm is
incapacitated.

    Thanks, again, Tim, and all the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:49:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb

Hello, Tim!

> A hypothetical question for those who know more about FDR.  If all else
> had remained the same, but Roosevelt had not died in April, 1945, would
> he have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in August 1945?

    To answer your question, I don't think he would have denied its
use. He may have taken longer to make the decision, but in the end,
he would have authorized its use.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:57:46 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

The Japanese did have an abomb section, because a couple of houyrs after
the bomb went off, they had a guy with a geiger counter there who told
the powers that be that it was a nuclear explosion, they weren't close
to a bomb of their own, but close enough to identify what it would
look like.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:59:30 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>
> Hello, Ron!
>
>     That doesn't surprise me. He made the statement, and I think he
> was correct in doing so, that "we were there to do one thing and that
> was to win." Implication being that killing the enemy by any means at
> any time and at any place was justifiable.
>
>     Thanks again.
>
>     Terry
>
[PLEASE NOTE: this is not a flame-starter or revisionism just a thought]

     Hmm, in which way is a bailed-out German pilot over *his* homeland
different from British crew of a sunken ship in their lifeboats?
Oblt. Heinz Eck was executed (along with his machine-gunner) for gunning down
helpless crewmembers of his victim in the Atlantic (which was UK/US home
ground so to speak) in 1944. Those crewmembers almost certainly would have
joined the fight against Eck's fatherland again and thus were still a threat.

    Anyone care to comment on this?

PS: I agree strongly with the execution of Eck (maybe not his gunner
though) but isnt this just another example of the winning side taking
vendetta on the losing side? Hunting down Germans for doing what both
sides did over and over again?

Again, I am not bashing anyone with this thread.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:07:55 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

Ben, is there a way I could get a photocopy of the script for my records?

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:13:43 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:11:09 +0100 PERRIN Olivier said:
>
>The Amtsgruppe D of the SS Wirtschafts und Verwaltungs Hauptamt  (WVHA, SS
>Economic and Administrative Department) was in charge of the concentration
>camps and was divided into :
>Amt I : Central Department
>Amt II : Allocation of Labour
>Amt III : Medical Administration
>Amt IV : General Administration of Camps and Camp Staff.
>The SS WVHA was part of the Allgemeine SS.
>
>
>Hope this helps
>O. PERRIN
>Olivier PERRIN
>Paris - FRANCE

When was this formed?  I seem to recall Speer saying that the SS Economic
office was not created until the middle of the war, as production had been
part of Organization Todt, the Four Year Plan, and the Reich Ministry of
Armaments and War Prodution (lesser organizations left out).

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:02:06 +1100
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: unmentioned victims

  In a post last year I mentioned about Chinese troops flooding there own
people and that the huge loss of life gets little mention compared to camps and
Dresden.Hiroshima etc which bring forth often heated discussion.
  I don't want to enter into the Enola Gay debate but wonder why the people who
are upset about the casualties at hiroshima arent equally as vocal about the
huge loss of life in China during and after the Japanese germ warfare
experiments and the proposed scope of that arm of warfare.
  Apart from the immense suffering by Pows and indigenous people who were used
as tests there are estimates of over a million chinese at the least dying from
the effectes on a malnouriched population of the release of plague infected
test animals into the country side as the Japanese experimenters tried to cover
up their operations in the same way the SS tried to destroy all knowledge of
the death camps etc. These people didn't die in a flash and it served no
strategic purpose but only to show complete racism and contempt for human life.
  The ultimate plan was to release plague infected rats etc into Sydney,
Melbourne,LA,San Francisco etc which makes Hiroshima some sort of side show.
  Bearing in mind the Enola Gay controversy I am reminded that the knowledge of
these things is mainly due to one chinese man who has spent his life trying to
document the story and who has received no help from Japanese sources as they
refuse to acknowledge that it ever happened. much of his work was done using US
help as the US facing the cold war and Korea gave immunity to these war
criminals in exchange for the research and that some of those responsible
occupied high places in Japanese society and government post war. This in
contrast to say the great efforts to bring to justice those responsible for say
the Malmedy massacre.

  Just my thinking.......
 Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:41:57 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Peso

You wrote:

>
>                   Ohio University Electronic Communication
>
>
>   Date:  07-Feb-1995 12:10pm EST
>
>     To:  Remote Addressee                     (
_MX%"[email-masked]
>" )
>
>   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
>          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614)
593-2715
>
>Subject:  Japanese Peso
>
>
>    A student here brought to me a very interesting piece of currency
which
>    has got us both wondering what it really is.  He was told it was
>    created during WWII but that is about all the info we have on it.
>
>    The bill is 5 1/2" by 2 5/8" and printed on both side, head to
foot.
>    The front of the bill is very much a simplified knock off of the US
one
>    dollar bill.  The 'headline' says "The Japanese Government."  The
upper
>    two corners have an enlarged '1' inside a shield and the word
'PESO'
>    across the '1.'  In the center (where George's face would be on the
US
>    One) is a more elaborate shield with a '1' in the center and the
word
>    'ONE' across the number.  Below the center shield is the statement
'ONE
>    PESO' and below that are Japanese or Chinese letters.  To the left
of
>    the center shield is the image of a monument which appears to be a
>    Greek-style plaza with a pyramid-like base topped with statues and
an
>    obelisk rising from the center.  To the right of the center shield
is
>    the word 'ONE' printed very light over an embedded water mark of
what
>    appears to be palms or tropical plants.  Just below are seven
numbers
>    which might be serial numbers.
>
>    The reverse side of the bill again uses simplified knock off of the
US
>    Dollar for a border with 1's in the corners and the enlarged 1 with
>    PESO in the center midway down each side.  To the left of center is
a
>    large unprinted circle to expose the water mark.  Center right has
the
>    word 'ONE' large in reverse with 'ONE PESO' overprinted.
>
>    We have had a lot of fun speculating on the purpose of this bill
>    (occupation money for use after capturing Panama, Mexico, the
>    Philippines, or the US) but would really like something more
concrete.
>    Anybody out there have any ideas or leads or know what one of these
>    puppies is worth today?
>
>    Doug
>    [email-masked]
>
>
>
>Received:  07-Feb-1995 12:37pm
>
>
Sounds like what you've got is Japanese occupation money for the
Phillipines.  The description fits what I remember of these bills that
my father brought home as souveniers.

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:45:49 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: admin (sorry)

Henry Herz, very nice reply, others of us on the list are with you
Mike.  Henry, it was a tiny message in comparison to some of the other
files posted to this list and it was very intelligent of you to
repost the whole thing so that it goes in everyones mailbox not once
but twice, I hope you get a copy of your messages so it continues
to jam your mailbox.  He posted the proper info to the Admin area
as he needed help from the listowner, if you don't like that find
a snail-mail list-serv.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:51:34 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

You wrote:

>
>        While it may be more justifiable to shoot at enemy pilots
>in parachutes using the logic that they may fight again, I would
>like to bring the discussion toward the more dubious practices of
>the British in which they would strafe enemy sea planes trying
>to rescue *British* pilots, knowingly (via Ultra) sinking enemy
>merchantmen filled with *British* POWs, and attacking clearly
>marked enemy hospital ships.  It seems the postwar image of gallant
>chivalry is totally misplaced.
>--
>Joe Barone
>[email-masked]
>Crap Game: Hey, Joe, what's happenin'?
>  Big Joe: The Sherman is shot and nobody is moving that German tank!
>Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
>  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
>Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.
>
>
Is it any more gallent to launch missiles at cities, knowing that there
isn't the ghost of a chance that they will strike anything remotely
military?  Or what about sending a thousand + bombers out at night to
destory a city because it's not possible to pinpoint the military
targets within that city at night.

Truth be told, the technology of war had pretty much killed off the
concept of "gallent warriors" by the US civil war.  By the time the
quote "War is Hell!" was written down, it was litteral truth.

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:01:54 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

As a postscript to earlier discussions regarding the ultimate fates of
various battleships, I'd like to add the following as a pair of French
battlewagons that often miss out on the limelight (hey, they may be old,
but they're bigger'n ANYTHING the Royal Romanian Navy had afloat at the
time, INCLUDING the DACIA):

ALSO LOST AT TOULON (27TH NOVEMBER 1942)

[this is in addition to STRASBOURG, DUNKERQUE, & PROVENCE]

CONDORCET (DANTON class, 1911)
     deleted from Fleet lists 1931 but retained as depot ship for the Navy's
     torpedo training establishment; by 1942 a hulked barrack ship.  Damaged
     by explosion in scuttling attempt but remained afloat.  Served as
     barracks ship for German Navy until August 1944, at which time suffered
     damage from Allied bombing attacks, finally sinking in shallow water.
     Salvaged December 1945 and ?? back in French service?? until deleted
     from Fleet lists again! in 1947.  Scrapping completed by 1959.

JEAN BART later OCEAN  (COURBET class, 1913)
     modifications & upgrades completed by 1929; converted to training
     ship 1931; renamed OCEAN in 1937 to free up name for a new vessel;
     by 1942 serving as a stationery training ship & hulk.  Scuttled by
     crew 27th November 1942; semisunk hulk used as a target by German Navy.
     Salvaged 1944 and broken up for scrap by December 1945.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:15:07 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

>
> Interesting. My thoughts exactly regarding your post. Makes me wonder
> about their authenticity. Any thoughts?  <Hitler signed KZ docs>
>
>     Terry

No telling without looking at them.  Even then I am no expert but some
fakes are better than others.  I met Hugh Trever-Roper in Milan and he
was called in as an expert witness on the John Demjanjuk case.
According to Roper the documents the Israelis offered as evidence were
rather poor forgeries.

Unfortunately for us collectors, as the demand for these items
increases so does the price.  When the prices reach certain thresholds
then it becomes cost effective to fake them to near
indistinguishability.  We are seeing this in the realm of SS insignia
and uniform items now.  The Hitler diaries are a good example and
remember the story of the Hermann Goring wedding sword.  To date that
was the biggest swindle in militaria collecting and was so well
planned and executed that *all* the "experts" were fooled.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 18:53:16 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: A "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit

        Last Thursday, before I got overwhelmed with system problems, I read a
post in which a listmember (sorry, in my speed-deleting frenzy to free up some
blocks I lost the name) posed the question to Ben Frank as to what would
satisfy him as a "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit.  While I
wouldn't presume to answer for Ben, who obviously needs no help speaking for
himself, the manner in which the question was posed kind of irked me.  Someone
else on the list (again apologies for losing the name)-- might have been Steve
New-- gave a great short answer, something like the Japanese "sowed the wind
and reaped a whirlwind."  Seeing as short, concise answers aren't exactly my
standard operating procedure/strong suit, I thought I'd take a crack at
expostulating on the subject at a little greater length.
        I believe I did see a reply from Ben (if it was someone else, apologies
and see my excuse above) saying that if the exhibit only showed photographs of
charred Hiroshima corpses, collections of artifacts from children killed by the
bomb, and a text which said that in the Japanese mind they were only defending
their "unique culture" from American imperialism, that hardly constituted a
"balanced" presentation of what happened at Hiroshima, or what led to it.  This
is exactly my viewpoint-- i.e., funny that they chose to defend their unique
Japanese culture in places like the Phillipines, Malaya, China, Indonesia, New
Guinea, Burma, etc, etc, etc.  I don't see how the bombing can be placed in
context at all without some exposition of what came before, nor how the
treatment of the presumed American hatred (some scholars and pseudo-scholars
like to use the term "race-hatred" here) can be presented without also exposing
the multiplicity of verified atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese prior to
August 1945-- at least not in a manner that can be in any way described as
"balanced."  In other words, to understand the decision to drop the bomb, you
DO need to show such incidents as the rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march,
the construction of the Burma railway, etc.  To understand the military
mentality toward the Japanese, one also needs to see how they fought to the
bitter end at places like Tarawa and Iwo Jima, or how even civilians committed
mass suicide on Saipan rather than fall into American hands, or what a
terrifying weapon the kamikazes were to those on the receiving end.  This is
the true context of the times, McArthur's relatively low (and in my mind
unjustifiably so, but that's another story-- he didn't fight at Iwo or Okinawa,
where the maneuver options were more limited) estimate of potential casualties
for the invasion of Japan aside (and even his estimates provided for the loss
of over 100,000 men).  The sum total of the American military experience in the
Pacific, especially in the last year of the war as the ground fighting
approached Japanese soil, was certainly more indicative of the mother of all
bloodbaths than of any other potential outcome of an actual invasion (at least
in terms of assessing the Japanese mentality-- let's not forget the attitude of
the Army high command, even in August, or Admiral Onishi speaking of
"sacrificing TWENTY MILLION lives in 'special--i.e, suicide-- attacks'").
        But actually, what I want to talk about is "sowing the wind."  Because,
in my mind, the conduct of the war by the Japanese military consistently set a
standard of bestiality that has seldom if ever been equaled in this century.  I
mentioned earlier a book called "Peace Is Our Duty," wherein, among other
things (there are also accounts by civilian atomic bomb survivors, for
instance) there are recollections by six different soldiers who fought in
China.  I mentioned that the one thing these six had in common, even though
they belonged to at least three different units, was that all six had been
given a "combat indoctrination" whereby they were forced to bayonet living,
bound prisoners, so that each soldier already knew what it was like to kill
before entering actual combat (Saburo Ienaga, in "The Pacific War 1931-45"
cites several more examples from China and Manchuria, also from the testimony
of veterans, and when the accounts of non-Japanese witnesses in Singapore,
Rabaul, and elsewhere are added in one can assume the practice was extremely
wide-spread if not universal in the Japanese Army).  But this is only the tip
of the iceberg, especially in China.  One of the men in "Peace Is Our Duty"
recounts how, when his squad entered a house and were busily gang-raping a
woman they found there, a man, apparently the husband, came in, so the narrator
picked up an axe he saw in the corner of the room and split open the man's
skull.  The dazed and naked woman stumbled out into the street, where she was
treated to an even worse orgy of sexual assault by more passing Japanese
soldiers.  Ienaga cites a soldier who wrote a book called "Naked Women In The
Ranks," the title deriving from a practice to prevent straggling on the long
marches that characterized the China campaign, that is, stripping young Chinese
women and forcing them to march along, the noncoms telling the troops before
setting out that if they "wanted a shot at the Chink broads" at the end of the
day they'd better keep up.  Nice motivational tool.  Another of the men in
"Peace Is Our Duty" was transfered to a counter-insurgency security police
unit, where he recounted how prisoners (in China this meant anyone even
suspected of giving aid or information to the guerillas, which might mean
anyone in a village the guerilla forces had passed through) were questioned by
sticking cigarettes up their noses (just to help the old imagination, the
glowing tip of a cigarette is approximately 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit).  This
was nothing compared to the so-called "Political Indoctrination" sessions
groups of long-term prisoners were periodically submitted to.  The concrete
floor of a shed was covered with hot coals, and the prisoners, male and female,
were rolled and kicked back and forth across the coals while simultaneously
being beaten with clubs, the process generally continuing until the subject
died.  This was not even torture for information, simply a weeding-out of the
prisoner population, but one supposes a simple bullet or beheading was less
amusing.  Ienaga speaks of another favorite torture method in China, which was
to smear gasoline all over the prisoner's bare back and then set it afire, also
fatal in many cases.  The abuses were so widespread they can not be considered
aberrations, but might be looked at as deliberate policy.  Ienaga fills three
pages or so with examples of everything from baby killing to bayoneting
pregnant women in the belly to...well, you get the idea, its all pretty
disgusting.   And in large segments of China this WAS deliberate policy--i.e.,
the celebrated "Three All Policy" in Northern China, a response to the only
partially successful but mutually costly "Hundred Regiments Offensive" of Mao's
guerillas against the Japanese in 1940.  The "Three All's"= "Kill All, Burn
All, Take All."  Pretty self-explanatory, and this was official policy, aimed
at deliberate depopulation of the areas used as guerilla bases or perceived to
be sympathetic.  And it worked-- in the areas of China affected, within three
years the murder and flight to escape the terror reduced the estimated
population from 41 million to 25 million.  "Unique culture" indeed.
        But hey, that's just China.  All around the Pacific rim the question
"do you need a manicure?" was used by sadistic interrogators to prompt
co-operation-- sticking long steel needles under the fingernails or tearing the
nails out with pliers being favorite Japanese methods of examination.  William
Manchester, in "Goodbye Darkness," gives a horribly detailed account of some of
the Japanese practices on Guam, and there are a number of books providing the
same detail, often in first-hand testimony of survivors, for the Phillipines.
Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, the famous Marine ace and "Black Sheep" squadron
leader, after bailing out of his shot-up Corsair over Rabaul in January 1944,
wounded in a couple of places, was not only denied medical treatment by his
captors, but was several times subjected to torture before being relegated to a
prison camp (see "Baa Baa Black Sheep").  British and Australian pilots
captured in the Indonesian theatre were also on occasion tortured with such
methods as needles under the nails and prolonged, systematic beatings of the
legs with sticks, and several were executed when they failed to provide the
information their captors demanded.  I saw on this list a posting recently
about the execution of a number of downed B-29 pilots in the Japanese homelands
(several of the much earlier Doolittle raiders who fell into Japanese hands
were also executed), but that was kids' stuff compared to the fate of eight
captured B-29 crewmen who were used for vivisection experiments (i.e., being
surgically dissected while still alive-- see Ienaga).  How does that fit in
with the current subject line about international law regarding downed air
crewmen?? (BTW, one of the men in "Peace Is Our Duty" relates once observing a
Japanese Army doctor demonstrating brain surgery to a group of trainees using a
live Chinese).
        Shall I go on?  There are many parts of the so-called "Greater East
Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" we haven't even touched yet.  Remember, the Japanese
line on this, and its being taught in Japanese schools even as we speak, is
that they were fighting to free Asia from European and American colonial
imperialism.  Lots of empathy for their brethren chafing under the white man's
yoke.  In Singapore the first action of the Japanese was to round up the 70,000
or so Chinese living there.  Those who got shipped off as slave laborers were
the lucky ones.  Thousands were used for live bayonet practice (there exist
numerous photographs of this one, taken by the Japanese themselves), others
were tied up, taken to sea in boats, and thrown overboard.  When a Japanese
warehouse was broken into and a guard killed, the Japanese immediately beheaded
eight suspects and posted their heads on stakes on one of Singapore's busiest
streets.  And readers of Herman Wouk's "Winds of War" may recall how colonial
Singapore was portrayed as the essence of British imperialist snobbery, how one
character is denied entrance to the exclusive Raffles hotel because one of her
grandparents was non-white.  According to a Japanese civilian who was there,
under Japanese occupation of Singapore "forms of racial discrimination not even
practiced by the British were implemented." (Ienaga)  The Japanese also
dispatched all the Australian military personnel they caught when they landed
on Rabaul by tying them to trees and bayonetting them.  In Burma, in one
instance, a captured British officer was tied to the front of a Japanese tank,
which then advanced toward British lines (the officer bravely called upon his
comrades to ignore him and shoot, which they did).  I am citing these examples
at length to show how universal and pervasive this tendency toward bestiality
and utter disregard for human life or any concept of civilized behavior (even
by wartime standards) was in the Japanese Army.  In another incident recounted
by Ienaga from Malaya a counter-insurgent group brought in eight men and women
from a village suspected of aiding the guerillas.  The interrogation consisted
of beating them to death with clubs, and when the men of the unit returned
literally covered with their victims' blood even a Japanese civilian employee
of the unit disgustedly remarked that such behavior only made the natives hate
them more.
        Someone posted to the list a day or two ago the idea that poison gas
was the WW2 equivalent of atomic bombs in the sheer horror it invoked.  In
1939, Lt-General Hashimoto admitted to Prince Takeda that the Japanese Army had
been secretly using poison gas against the guerillas in the mountains of Shansi
province.  Then there was the notorious biological warfare research unit which
conducted experiments in Manchuria by secretly exposing thousands of civilians,
primarily women and children, to bubonic plague, typhoid, and other diseases
(this was the short segment of the film "The Last Emporer" which was censored
in Japan a few years ago).  Even areas considered part of Japan were treated to
the Japanese concept of racial equality.  In addition to the experience of
200,000 "comfort women," forced into sexual slavery as Japanese Army enlisted
man's prostitutes in the most appalling conditions-- something recently
admitted and apologized for by the Japanese government-- and the hundreds of
thousands of slave laborers, ask those lucky Koreans who were actually drafted
into the Japanese Army as soldiers how their treatment compared to those of the
regular Japanese soldier (which itself was often remarkably brutal, a subject
for a future post as this is getting pretty long).  On Okinawa, where the
inhabitants were so loyal to Japan that thousands of teen-age boys volunteered
for behind-enemy-lines suicide attack missions, the final weeks of the battle
saw horrendous abuses of the civilian populations by Japanese soldiers who had
lost all discipline-- an Okinawan could consider himself "lucky" if bands of
leaderless soldiers contented themselves with merely raping his wife and
daughters and stealing all his food and other valuables, without killing
everyone as well.  On one small offshore island, the Japanese commander, when
supplies ran short, ordered the inhabitants to give up their food supplies and
commit mass suicide, which 329 of the islanders dutifully did.  Even Indonesia,
which had bad experiences with Dutch colonial rule and thus initially welcomed
the Japanese, had its share of horrors, though it was not treated so much as an
enemy nation.  In fact, Indonesia was considered a model of the "Greater East
Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" in action, and its islands a paradise for the
Japanese garrisons (as one quoted by Ienaga said, "in Batavia--now Djakarta--
you could get all the booze and women you wanted").  Balikpapan was also
considered a cushy post, famous for its friendly women-folk, at least until the
Allies starting bombing the oil refineries there in the fall of '44, and the
island of Bali was so peaceful the entire Japanese garrison there amounted to
only one company.  Even here the Japanese soon made more enemies than friends
with regular displays of public drunkeness, random beatings of passersby by
drunken soldiers, even public fornication in Japanese restaraunts.  And
eventually there was a particularly vicious round-up of slave laborers on the
main island of Java-- speaking of this, Ienaga says "the unlucky Indonesians,
just like the Korean, Chinese, and Manchurian slave laborers, soon found out
who it was that prospered in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere."  I
might add that because of the limited mechanization and support services
generally found in Japanese Army formations the appetite of the military for
laborers was immense, and no matter what they were called they were treated
like slaves.  Their numbers ran into the hundreds of thousands.  In China
proper road crews were forced to work in heavy shackles, and were publically
beaten with large wooden clubs on their way to work and even while working.
Add in a starvation diet and the shooting of anyone incapable of working or
perceived to be slacking, and you get the idea.
        Well, enough of this, I guess.  I wanted to mention that practically
all of the above comes from Japanese, not western, sources.  I should also note
that I haven't even specifically mentioned the most famous Japanese atrocities
of the war, such as the rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march, the suffering
and in many cases death of most Allied prisoners of war, the rampage of murder
and destruction wreacked by Japanese marines on Manila just before it fell to
the Allies, etc...
        There is a Japanese side to the story, of course, and in my next post
I'll look at some of it, but the overall weight of the evidence in my mind is
that they fought a war of heartless and even senseless cruelty which no
civilized human being can condone.  This should, IMHO, be set against the
admittedly brutal fire bombings and the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima
in assessing blame for war atrocities.  Oh, yeah, and didn't they start the
shooting war??  Sowing the wind indeed...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

                "We Romanians will sell anything, even our country, but we
                        won't make delivery."

                        Bucharest street wisdom, circa 1949

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:50:30 +10
From:    David Murnain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BISMARK

Please stop writing 'Dorchester'. The ship involved was 'Dorsetshire'.
(A County class cruiser, other sisters/near sisters were Shropshire,
Norfolk, Suffolk etc., ie named after English counties. The design
evolved over several years and the ships varied in detail quite a bit.)

-------------------------------------------------------
David Murnain                           |"What is good, and what
[email-masked]|is not good, Phaedrus.?
BHP Information Technology       |Need we ask others to tell us
Newcastle, Australia                  |these things."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:30:37 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN:Bill Huber

Sorry to post this to the group, still getting bounce mail delayed by three days
to you Bill.  You got another e-mail address that receives?  Let me know.

I am somewhat of a collector, ain't got much but books.

Semper Fi!
Chip
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:32:44 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Marine Corps History

Ben--

Would be most interested in the posting for the Marine Corps!!

Semper Fi!
Chip

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:43:44 -0500
From:    Tim McFeely <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: North Africa

Jack McKillop wrote in a recent response on RADAR at Pearl Harbor:

<deleted>

>To save money, manpower, and wear and tear, the six mobile radar stations
>only operated during the following hours:

>  Sunday: 0400-0700
>  Monday thru Friday: 0700-1100 and 1200-1600
>  Saturday: 0700-1100

<deleted>

Can you imagine during the height of the Cold War, NORAD operating only
during these times!!! I realize the situation was different and RADAR was a
new concept, but...

Thanks for the story Jack. It filled in several gaping holes I haven't had
time to research in my PTO knowledge base.

A question to the list.

      Did we have enough airpower on the ground to deal with the Japanese
had we been able to get them launched and airborne? Or would it have been
just a futile effort?

Also in response to my earlier post concerning North Africa. Jack, thanks for
the OB for the 12th AF. I would appreciate the OB for the 9th as well
provided it is not too much trouble. In regards to combat loadout, shall we
say a P-40 in a Harrassment/Interdiction mission. What would they have
carried?

Tim McFeely
Ocean State FreeNet
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:12:21 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb

>A hypothetical question for those who know more about FDR.  If all else
>had remained the same, but Roosevelt had not died in April, 1945, would
>he have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in August 1945?
>
>Tim J. Watts
>Valparaiso University

I can't say I know all that much about FDR, but he had expended an awful
lot of time, talent and resources on it, to not use it.

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:12:33 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties (pt 2 of 2)

The second message looks like MacArthur trying to overcome resistance to
"His" plan - his ego is well documented. I find casualties of 2590 a day
believable [ he says half of that the first 15 days... Huh? the first few
days of any attack are always the bloodiest]. I don't have my modern C&GSC
stuff in front of me, but a modern attack against a determined defender
would have those sorts of figures initially, with a lower value [1.8 - 2.4]
later as more of the rear echelon folks come ashore and skew the curve;
also day three on, everyone is tired and less aggresive, so less
casualties. His staff's estimate would give 20,000 to 25,000 KIA for the
first month and around twice that wounded, half of the wounded would be
unable to return to duty and the other half would dribble back into the
manpower pool over a year. All this is an approximation from memory, using
modern stats - somebody w/ more recent experiance may wish to fine tune
them.

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:19:28 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

You can read Hitler's preview of the Halocaust in his
heart-warming little book, MEIN KAMPF.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:39:17 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Ron!
>
> Great post and it seems that I read this somewhere as well.
>
> > I recall reading an article about Francis Grabeski (sp?) in which he was
> > dogfighting with a German airman in a FW-190 while escorting some bombers.
> > The dogfight was the most vicious and desperate he had yet encountered.  He
> > was finally able to turn the situation arround and managed to terminally
> > damage the FW with a couple of burst to the engine.  As the canopy flew
> > off, Grabeski (sp?) thought to himself that this pilot was just too good
> > and if he managed to bail out, he knew that this pilot would end up
> > shooting down allied airmen.   Without a seconds hesitation, Grabeski (sp?)
> > aimed at the pilot, pulled the trigger and knocked the German airman back
> > into the burning FW.  Grabeski felt no remorse over this and said that he
> > would do it again if need be.
>
>     That doesn't surprise me. He made the statement, and I think he
> was correct in doing so, that "we were there to do one thing and that
> was to win." Implication being that killing the enemy by any means at
> any time and at any place was justifiable.
>
>     Thanks again.
>
>     Terry
>
I was recently watching a video of Battle of the Bulge, and thinking
about that and some other things I'd read.  I think for us, non
combatants these things look inhumane, but I think when yu're in combat
long enough it does something abnormal to you emotionally.  You have to
retreat emotionally into some place where the horrors around you don't
get to you.  You develop the ability to kill men as though they were only
paper targets, because that's the kind of mind you need to keep from
cracking up.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:16:52 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Operation Coronet Casualties

from a Letter by Harry S Truman to his sister Mary, 1948:

'... I ordered the Atomic Bomb to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
It was a terrible decision. But I made it. And I'd make it again to save 250,000
boys from the United States and I'd make it again under similar circumstances.
It stopped the Jap War.'

If the President of the US believed that we'd have casualties of 250,000, it was
because Military estimates had told him so. Not a big supporter of
Military Intelligence (an Oxymoron), the figures might or might not have
been inflated but that was the information HST had to go on to make the
decision which has led to this entire discussion.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:16:49 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>I would like to bring the discussion toward the more dubious practices of
>the British in which they would strafe enemy sea planes trying to rescue
>*British* pilots....

And radioing information back to German forces about shipping moving along
the coast along with other violations of the Geneva conventions. Air-sea rescue
craft were shot down by both sides. The Luftwaffe camouflaged their ASR craft
and provided Fighter escorts. The RAF did the same.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:28:03 -0600
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP-Napalm

In Jack McKillop's Coronology of USAAF for the Sunday, 4 Feb. 1945 he
reports the following, that B-25s of the FEAF "bomb and strafe coast
targets from San Felipe to Maloma, hit targets around lba, and drop
napalm on San Jose del Monte".

Can someone on the list give me a short history of napalm.  Who invented
it, who developed it into a weapon, when was it first used, etc?

TIA
[email-masked]
+==============================+=============================================+
| DAN COX                      | "I have made this letter longer than usual, |
| REPUBLIC, MO                 | only because I have not had the time to     |
| [email-masked] | make it shorter."--Blaise Pascal            |
+==============================+=============================================+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Feb 1995 to 7 Feb 1995
***********************************************