Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Feb 1995 to 12 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 00:02:35 -0500

There are 21 messages totalling 589 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-FEB-1945
  3. Westerly 3 of 5: Howard, part I
  4. TAC: Operation Anvil
  5. GEN: JOHN TOLAND'S WRITINGS (2)
  6. Obersalzburg
  7. Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's
  8. S.O.S. FROM MEXICO (2)
  9. Story of Bombing of SD/Gestapo HQ/Copenhagen
 10. Schindler's List (4)
 11. The Little Girl in Red Re: Schindler's List
 12. The hushed up invasion of England.
 13. COPENHAGEN GESTAPO
 14. BURNING ITCH OF NA
 15. GEN: JOHN TOLAND'S WRI
 16. Subscribe

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Date:    Sat, 11 Feb 1995 22:25:21 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

ben...
Now why the heck my subconscious should suddenly disgorge the lyrics
of a now-obscure song of WW2 is betond me.  'Song started going through my
head most of the day...

        "All's well, Mad'e'me'selle,
         We're off again to good old gay Paree.
         We started off in Italy,
         And now we're back in Normandy...
         hearts will sing a happy song,
         France will ring with the Marsellais...
         Vie la France again,
         Mad'e'me'selle..."
'Sounds cornball now. Matter of fact it sounded faintly ersatz at the
time, too. Song started to be plugged on the radio in Britain just
after the D-Day Landings. Probably was a deliberate propaganda item.
Still it had a certain jaunty timeliness in June 1944.  However, it
soon faded from hearing.  Doubt if many people remember it all, now.
Maybe after this, I'll be able to forget it again, myself.  :-)

Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:36:33 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-FEB-1945

On 13-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the Canadian 3rd Division
patrols toward Emmerich. The 15th Division takes Hasselt. In the U.S. 1st
Army sector, the III Corps begins a period of limited activity with the
corps taking up defensive positions on the west bank of the Rur. Activity
also lessens in the 3rd Army sector, but some elements do continue to
advance. The 80th Division continues its advance on Ammeldingen and the 5th
Division on Ferschweiler.

Eastern Front - The Red Army completes the capture of Budapest after a
month and a half of fighting. In German Silesia, Soviet forces gain ground
northwest of Breslau, encircling Glogau and takes Beuthen.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 37th Division and 1st Cavalry
Division are clearing stubborn strongpoints on approaches to Intramuros in
Manila. The 11th Airborne Division completes mopping up Nichols Field. I
Corps continues to regroup. Mine sweeping and naval gunfire bombardment of
Corregidor is begun in preparation for landings. The 38th Division is
almost finished clearing the Zigzag defences.

Pacific - Final rehearsals for the Iwo Jima operation are concluded off the
coast of Tinian.

Burma - The British 36th Division is holding the Shwelin bridgehead against
increasing resistance. The Indian 20th Division expands its bridgehead
across the Irrawaddy.

The Homefront
-------------
Twenty-four Die In Plane Crash - The 21 passengers and three crew members
aboard a Navy air transport plane have been killed when the aircraft
plunged into San Francisco Bay 13 minutes after taking off from Oakland
airport. All victims were military personnel.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:37:51 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Westerly 3 of 5: Howard, part I

Cheryl,

The narrative mentions that the 34th Division was a National Guard
unit from Minnesota.  It actually had a broader range than that, being
composed of units from Minnesota, North and South Dakota, and Iowa.  Of
its three regiments, two (the 133rd and 168th) were from the Iowa National
Guard.  The third, the 135th, was from the Minnesota National Guard.

The most useful reference for such matters is Shelby L. Stanton, _World War
II Order of Battle_ (New York:  Galahad Books, 1991).

Keep up the good work!  These are fascinating posts.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:08:09 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Operation Anvil

Scott,

You've almost won me over.  I'm beginning to swing to the pro-Anvil side
of the debate, but there are still a few holes I need to plug.

I guess my biggest concern is whether or not the four U.S. divisions
withdrawn from Italy were the only U.S. divisions involved in the Anvil
landings.  I suppose its a moot point.

This has been an excellent discussion and reinforces my belief in the
usefullness of the list, (not that it needed any.)

Thanks to all!

Lee A. Windsor                             [email-masked].
8th Canadian Hussars                                  35 High St.
Wilfrid Laurier U.                                  Waterloo, ONT
Waterloo, Ontario                                         N2L 3X7
                         "Semper Fidelis"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 11:14:23 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: JOHN TOLAND'S WRITINGS

  FOR JIM CURRY
  Thanks for your comment on John Toland.  I would be interested in
comments also from others familiar with his writings, which I am not.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:56:32 -0600
From:    BOB ROY <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Obersalzburg

  COL. DONNELL

  I would vary much like to see the info  on OBERSALZBERG...I made two trips
there
during my tour at RAMSTEIN (73-75)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 13:29:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

Hello, William!

Do you have access to Gerald Reitlinger's book "SS-Alibi of a
Nation"? That deals extensively with this topic. Please let me know.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 13:42:01 -0600
From:    BALAM V JORGE R <[email-masked]>
Subject: S.O.S. FROM MEXICO

COULD ANY BODY HELP ME? ... I'M A INTERNATIONAL RELATION STUDENT  AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF LAS AMERICAS, PUEBLA (MEXICO) I HAVE TO PRESENT A PAPER
ABOUT ASIA AND AS I'M INTERESTED IN WWII AND ESPECIALLY IN AIRFCRAFTS
MATTER. I'VE DECIDE TO WRITE ABOUT THE KAMIKAZES BUT WITH AN ORIGINAL POINT
OF VIEW. I MEAN, LOOK AT THEM FROM A PSICHOLOGICAL, CULTURAL AND EVEN
PHILOSOPHICAL SIGHT. AS ONE ZERO'S PILOT SAY THAT THE PLANE IS TO THE
PILOT, LIKE THE KATANA IS TO THE SAMURAI.
        IF SOME OF YOU CAN HELP ME, I'LL REALLY THANK YOU. ANY WAY IF YOU
NEED ANITHING JUST RING THE BELL FROM THE ADRESS ABOVE
                  SALUDOS.....DESDE MEXICO
                        JORGE BALAM "BALITA"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 13:46:47 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Story of Bombing of SD/Gestapo HQ/Copenhagen

Hello, All!

Here goes with the first installment of this interesting story.

                 Bombing of Shellhus

Within two weeks of the attack on Gestapo Headquarters in Aarhus, Kai
Winkelhorn, an American officer who headed the Danish secton of the
OSS, conferred with senior intelligence officers of the Second
Tactical Air Force about the possibility of conducting another low-
level Mosquito attack, this time against Gestapo Headquarters in
Copenhagen. This raid would pose even more difficult problems than
the operation against Aarhus, for Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen
was located in Shellhus (Shellhouse), a relatively new building in the
very heart of the city. To further complicate the attack, the Germans
had imprisoned several important resistance leaders in cells built on
the top floor of Shellhus, among them two members of the Freedom
Council, Aage Schock and Mogens Fog, who had been arrested in a
German sweep only a few weeks before. The Germans trusted that Danish
resistance forces still in operation would learn the names and
location of the imprisoned leaders (which they did) and would pass on
this information to London (again the assumption was correct).
Londwon would then realize that to bomb Shellhus would mean almost
certain death for some of the most important Danish resistance
leaders.

Despite the hostages, Danish resistance leaders who remained at
large, urged an immediate attack. Germany had threatened to "fight
terror with terror", and the Gestapo was making almost daily arrests.
The Danish resistance leaders feared that if the Gestapo was allowed
to continue its crackdown unimpeded, every underground organizer
active in Denmark would be caught and executed before the end of the
war. The danger was deemed so great that those resistance leaders
still in operation were willing to sacrifice their comrades in
captivity at Shellhus in order to save the lives of those who were
still at large.

In London, the plans were drawn up for the attack, but the decision
to implement the plan was delayed. Not only did the political
question raised by the hostages trouble the British, but there were
the technical and logistics problems as well: identification of
Shellhus would be more difficult than identification of the Aarhus
University buildings. Copenhagen was heavily defended by anti-
aircraft batteries, and planes were scarce. Every available Mosquito
was being thrown at targets along the Western Front, where Allied
troops were pushing the Germans back into the territory of the Reich.
Any questionable operation, which the Shellhus operation appeared to
be, must of necessity receive a low priority.

More tomorrow.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 16:10:30 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Schindler's List

I finally saw Shindler's List. My question is - even though the movie was
made in black and white, in the first part as the Jews were being rounded up
in the ghetto there was a scene where a girl has a red coat on (not black and
white but actually red in color). Was this a mistake in making the movie, our
copy, my VCR or was this done intentionally? If so what was the significance.
Also towards the end my wife said she noticed a red wheel barrow in a scene.
I did not notice it.

Finally, I must plead total ignorance on this, was this store true? The
titles said it came from a novel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 16:57:46 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: S.O.S. FROM MEXICO

On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, BALAM V JORGE R wrote:

> COULD ANY BODY HELP ME? ... I'M A INTERNATIONAL RELATION STUDENT  AT THE
> UNIVERSITY OF LAS AMERICAS, PUEBLA (MEXICO) I HAVE TO PRESENT A PAPER
> ABOUT ASIA AND AS I'M INTERESTED IN WWII AND ESPECIALLY IN AIRFCRAFTS
> MATTER. I'VE DECIDE TO WRITE ABOUT THE KAMIKAZES BUT WITH AN ORIGINAL POINT
> OF VIEW. I MEAN, LOOK AT THEM FROM A PSICHOLOGICAL, CULTURAL AND EVEN
> PHILOSOPHICAL SIGHT. AS ONE ZERO'S PILOT SAY THAT THE PLANE IS TO THE
> PILOT, LIKE THE KATANA IS TO THE SAMURAI.
>         IF SOME OF YOU CAN HELP ME, I'LL REALLY THANK YOU. ANY WAY IF YOU
> NEED ANITHING JUST RING THE BELL FROM THE ADRESS ABOVE
>                   SALUDOS.....DESDE MEXICO
>                         JORGE BALAM "BALITA"
>
There are some good books on Kamikazes if you can find them.  One is "The
Divine Wind".  another is "Thunder Gods".  Thunder Gods is about an
unusual area of Kamikaze lore, having to do with suicede Rocket
Fighters.  The german rocket fighters are well known, but actually Japan
had a rocket plane similar to the Natter.  It was loaded with explosives
and was a one way trip.  It was a primitive sort of "smart bomb", dropped
from a Betty bomber and powered by a battery of rockets to it's target.
American sailors referred to them as "baka bombs" using the japanese word
for "crazy".  They were effective, but not enough to make any difference.
    Saburo Sakai's autobiography "Samarai" is revealing as well.  He had
actually been assigned a kamikaze mission along with two other planes.
He was flying out to dive into an american ship, a carrier I think, and
half way to the target changed his mind in a way that is uncharacteristic
of the japanese.
"....what use to go on?  To plunge into the ocean, to let the men back at
Iwo jima think that we had reached the target or been blown out od the
air trying?  Was that the course of honor?
   "No!  I checked the compass and swung around in a wide turn, the two
other zeros close behind.  I was not even sure of y lcation at the
moment; we had fopught wildly, fled into the cloud, and then wandered
blindly through the storm.  I might be anywhere overthe water..
   "Captain Miura's grim words came back to me 'you must diveagainst
the enemy carriers together!'
   "I turned back again to search for the ships.  I was an officer of the
Japanese Imperial Navy, where orders were absolute.  For any man to
question thoseorders, just or unreasonable was unheard of.  Even if we
made home, how could I ever face the same wing officer who had sentme out
on this mission?
   "It was a tremednous struggle.  I was beside myself with indecison and
anguish.  I know now, years later, that I axted in the only snesible
way.  But even tpday I cannot describe in words themeotional struggle it
took to overcome years of strict and brutal discipline, the lifelong
adherence to orders.  In those terrible moments in the Zero's cockpit, I
fought successfully to break the chain of discipline and tradition..."

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:07:21 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Schindler's List

On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, John Davis wrote:

> I finally saw Shindler's List. My question is - even though the movie was
> made in black and white, in the first part as the Jews were being rounded up
> in the ghetto there was a scene where a girl has a red coat on (not black and
> white but actually red in color). Was this a mistake in making the movie, our
> copy, my VCR or was this done intentionally? If so what was the significance.
> Also towards the end my wife said she noticed a red wheel barrow in a scene.
> I did not notice it.
>
> Finally, I must plead total ignorance on this, was this store true? The
> titles said it came from a novel.
Others here will know more about Schindler than me, but I can answer your
questions.
  The red coat is intentional, a dramatic device used by Speilberg to
illustrate Schindler's thoughts being drawn to this little girl who would
later show up dead.  The movie is based on a novel called "Schindler's
Ark".  Oscar Schindler is howevere a real person who did most of the
things in the movie.  His motives are still debatable, but for whatever
reason he saved 1000's of jews who awarded him a place on the "Street of
the Righteous" in Jerusalem.
  The fiddler depicted by an actor in the movie was based on a real man,
who had the distinction of having killed a German officer with a violin.
The officer came to the club one night and sat by himself at a table.  He
was drinking heavily, and obviously depressed.  The violinist noticed
that when he played a sad tune, the man got more depressed.  So he
positioned himself next to the table and played every sad tune he knew,
as dolefully as he could.  After an hour of this, the Nazi officer stood
up and went out on the balcony.  A moment later he shot himself through
the head.
   The fiddler himself told this story in an interview on NPR radio which
I heard.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:10:22 -0500
From:    "Patrick.Johnson." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Schindler's List

Re The Red Coat:

        The red coat appears in the movie theater version of the movie. I
had never really thought about it but I would guess the red coat was a
prelude for the red rose at the end of the movie. I am not sure what the
illusion is to though.

Patrick
*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!!*!*!*!
[email-masked]                         Great Minds have Purpose
Annandale, Virginia                               others have Dreams.
                                                  -Washington Irving
!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:15:53 -0800
From:    Sonnenschein Nath and Rosenthal <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: JOHN TOLAND'S WRITINGS

On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, JOHN AUSLAND wrote:

>   FOR JIM CURRY
>   Thanks for your comment on John Toland.  I would be interested in
> comments also from others familiar with his writings, which I am not.
>   Regards, John Ausland
>
        I've just got a few points regarding Toland...as a Teaching
Assistant at UW-Milwaukee, we used _The Rising Sun_ as our main text for
our WWII/Pacific course. It was a heavy read for some undergrads, but we
were selective in our assignments and the students seemed to grasp most
of his tracings. One thing however, the instructor and my advisor William
Renzi, mentioned Toland's wife at one point (I think he said she was
Japanese or Asian). Would this have had any effect on his writings or points
of view?
P.S. We also used William Manchester's _Goodbye Darkness_ as a
supplemental text and the students really responded to his work.

Doug Shireman <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:36:28 -0600
From:    "C.K. Bryant" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Schindler's List

cOn Sun, 12 Feb 1995, John Davis wrote:

> I finally saw Shindler's List. My question is - even though the movie was
> made in black and white, in the first part as the Jews were being rounded up
> in the ghetto there was a scene where a girl has a red coat on (not black and
> white but actually red in color). Was this a mistake in making the movie, our
> copy, my VCR or was this done intentionally? If so what was the significance.
> Also towards the end my wife said she noticed a red wheel barrow in a scene.
> I did not notice it.

The little girl with the red coat was done on purpose by Spielberg.  If
you noticed later that same little girl and her coat were shown later
among the dead bodies from the Ghetto massacre.  Had her coat not been
made red, this fact wouldn't have stood out.  If you recall she hid, yet
was obviously found.

I have to admit that I did not notice the red wheel barrow, however if
there was one used, it may again be Spielbergs' reference to the deaths
of children during the holocaust.  If you are aware of William Carlos
Williams' poem "The Red Wheelbarrow," perhaps you are not aware ofwhat
inspired him to write it.  Williams was a doctor and following the
terrible task of informing parents that there was nothing he could do to
help their little boy, he went to the kitchen and looked outside to see a
rainy barnyard scene.  In the middle of this scene stood an empty
wheelbarrow. and he wrote down a poem to create the scene, so he
would not forget the moment or the significance of his task.
If you do not know the poem it goes as follows:

                        The Red Wheelbarrow

                William Carlos Williams (1883-1963)

                        so much depends
                        upon

                        a red wheel
                        barrow

                        glazed with rain
                        water

                        beside the white
                        chickens.

> Finally, I must plead total ignorance on this, was this store true? The
> titles said it came from a novel.

The movie is what we would call Historical Fiction.  It is based on fact,
but the author and film director took some liberties with the actual
facts.  However, I am a literature and composition teacher and you will
have to count on others here to point out which things were true and which
things were agrandized (sp).

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 18:17:28 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Little Girl in Red Re: Schindler's List

Later in the movie, there was the scene where the camp commander is
burning the bodies of all the people he has killed. In one scene, a
wheelbarrow goes by where you can see the red jacket of the littel girl
who eairler in the movie walks though the town and tries to hide under a
bed. From what I have heard, Speilberg will not say what the little girl
represents, no will he say who it is who lays a single red rose on the
grave of Schindler at the end of the movie.-I hope this helps-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
[email-masked]   |

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 16:40:51 -0800
From:    Uniface Consultant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The hushed up invasion of England.

Man tortured by vague memory.

I seem to recall (very vaguely) that during 1942 (?) a group of German
special forces made an assault on England to try and gain information from
a laboratory that was involved in Radar development. The laboratory was on
the South Coast of England (Near Eastbourn ??). The attack was completely
routed and the Germans cut down to a man on the beach.

It was decided by the war office to hush the whole thing up, because as
with much of the information of that period, it was considered that it
would only cause panic. That was the only recorded attempt of a land attack
on Britain during WWII.

It remained hushed up until the 1980's when pictures were declasified
showing the bodies on a shingle beach covered in tarpaulin.

Does anyone else have a recollection of this event or is my old grey matter
failing ?

Any assistance greatfully accepted.

Andrew Beaumont.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 21:32:54 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: COPENHAGEN GESTAPO

It might also be pointed out that after the Gulf War, it was found that the
smart bombs were not all that smart, and that the conventional bombs did a
better job. I cannot provide a source for this statement, but I recall reading
this in several publications. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 22:20:15 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BURNING ITCH OF NA

I don't know, Ed. But I certainly can find out. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 22:41:11 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: JOHN TOLAND'S WRI

John, this is in response to you request for information about John Toland. I
know him and indexed two of his books, i.e. the one on WWI, and the one on
Pearl Harbor. His "The Rising Sun" won a Pulitzer Prize, and rightfully so, I
feel. He is an indefatigable researcher, and has use The National Archives
extensively, and the archivists there, also. I am afraid that his Pearl Harbor
book has many faults, inasmuch as he takes the position of those who see a
conspiracy on the part of FDR, and all else. He really has not backed up his
thesis with sound facts, and some of his sources are questionable. He attempted
to write a fictional account of WWII, using Marines as his main characters, and
that book was not well received. His last published book is one on the Korean
War, wherein he used some documentary material he went to China and North
Korea, I believe, to get. That book was not well received, either. He also
write a massive book on Adolf Hitler, perhaps the most comprehensive ever
written, and not a page turner, but filled with facts, some of which really are
of no interest. By the way, I'm embarrassed by the typos in the message above;
the fingers are not too nimble tonight. Regards, Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:08:49 EST
From:    "Jane_FEUTRILL_at_~students"@MLCKEW.EDU.AU
Subject: Subscribe

I would like to subscribe. My address is:
                                [email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Feb 1995 to 12 Feb 1995
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