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There are 52 messages totalling 1931 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [INF] USAAF 31 JAN 45
  2. GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP (3)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 02-02-95
  4. Japanese POWs in China? (2)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-FEB-1945
  6. Prisoner of War Camps in Nebraska
  7. Is the mailing list okay? (2)
  8. Enola Gay Exhibit (9)
  9. Peruvian Ecuadoran War (2)
 10. Congressional Medal of Honor (2)
 11. ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT
 12. question...
 13. Sicilian Invasion (2)
 14. MEDIA:Enola Gay (2)
 15. ONI Stories - Was Sicilian Invasion
 16. Farewell BBs
 17. Westerly History (2 of 5): Pasquale Grocchia
 18. Ecuador v/s Peru
 19. Law of Armed Conflict
 20. WEAP: Hawker Hurricane
 21. MEDIA:ENOLA GAY (2)
 22. Distance to Tokyo
 23. Malmedy Massacre
 24. Mike Yaklich/WWIIsongs (2)
 25. Shame Of The Smithsonian
 26. WEAP: Battleships
 27. Ascension Island
 28. World War 2 Music
 29. Invasion Casualties Japan (was Enola Gay)
 30. POW, MIA stamp
 31. book reviews (and obscure Romanian steamers)
 32. Media: Johnny Hopper article.
 33. [INF] USAAF 3 FEB 45
 34. Media RE: Enola Gay

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:08:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 31 JAN 45

"What makes a squadron a 'commando' ?"

The only such unit I know of is American  -- USAF Air Commando. The unit
provides air support, transport, and supply to army combat operations.

Air Commando was founded in WW2.  The name "Air Commando" was chosen by
General Hap Arnold, USAAF, as a tribute to Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten,
who commanded Combined Combined Operations which included the first
British Commando units.  At the time, Adm. Mountbatten was Supreme Allied
Commander, South East Asia.

(They were perhaps even better known through Milton Caniff's comic-strip,
TERRY AND THE PIRATES, based on the reali-life exploits of Col. Phil
Cochran.

The Air Commandos are now called "USAF Special Operations".

The Air Commando Association has over 1,000 members, and celebrated its
50th Anniversary in October, 1994.

More info is available from:

                                ACA
                                2 David Street
                                Fort Walton Beach
                                FL 32547, USA
                                Tel: (904) 864-1953.

Regards -- Sidney Allinson, Victoria, Canada.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:45:40 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

  FOR MIKE YAKLICH
  I have now read the second part of your account of the attempted
coup and found it fascinated reading.  What puzzles me is why I had
never heard of this incident until recently.
  I will bring this to the attention of my contacts at the
International Herald Tribune and CNN and hope others with media
contacts will do the same.  As the anniversary of the Japanese
surrender approaches, it is important that the public be aware of
these events so as to understand that, despite Hiroshima, it is not to
be excluded that the war would not have ended when it did.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-02-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/02 Sat.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 144, by submarine BERGALL
              (SS-321), off Malay Peninsula,
              04 d. 32'N., 104 d. 30'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 05:59:21 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <df@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in China?

In Neil Sheehan's *A Bright Shining Lie* there is a fascinating reference
to hundreds of Japanese soldiers (mostly noncoms I think) who supposedly
stayed behind in French Indochina rather than go home as prisoners of
war. According to Sheehan, they went to work for the Viet Minh and
trained them in small-arms tactics etc.

This raises the interesting possibility that some Japanese continued the
war by working with the Vietnamese against the Americans in the 1960s. As
some of you know, there was a story about Lt Col Tsuji Masanobu, who
disappeared in China in the early 60s, and who according to an English
writer became a staff officer for the North Vietnamese.

I should probably say that I checked the Sheehan account with a
Vietnamese historian at Harvard. She said it didn't sound right to her,
because the Vietnamese hated the Japanese so much that they would be
unlikely to accept the help of Japanese soldiers even against the French.

                 - Dan    <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:21:07 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-FEB-1945

On 03-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, elements of the 78th Division
swim the flooded Roer River at Dedenborn and capture the town. Jumping off
before dawn, the 9th Division overcomes house-to-house resistance in
Dreiborn and capture Herhahn and Einruhr. The 2nd Division continues toward
Schleiden, taking Berescheid, Ettelscheid and Bronsfeld. The 1st Division
continues to battle West Wall obstacles. The 82nd Airborne holds against
strong counterattacks. In the 3rd Army sector, the 4th Division clears
Halenfeld, Buchet and Bleialf. In the 7th Army sector, elements of the 36th
Division continue to clear Oberhoffen. In the French 1st Army sector, the
3rd and 7th Divisions continue toward Neuf-Brisach.

Eastern Front - In Latvia, the Germans cut off in the north hold against
powerfull attacks by the Russians in the direction of Liepaja. With the
assistance of the German navy, preparations are made for the evacuation of
the army. Fighting is taking place north of Heilsberg in East Prussia.
German destroyers give supporting fire to their land forces, while
trasnports take off more than 184,000 refugees. In Hungary, fighting
continues in Budapest, where the German forces reach the Danube again east
of Lake Velencei, east of Lake Balaton and southwest of Budapest.

Philippines - General MacArthur orders Manila Bay reopened, a task that
entails clearing Bataan, Corregidor and the south coast of the bay in the
Ternate area. In the XIV Corps area, the 1st Cavalry Division is given
permission to enter Manila after forward elements reach the city limits.
The 37th Division is still short of Manila because they have to move on
foot and cross numerous streams. In I Corps area, elements of of the 6th
Division push forward positions south and southwest of San Jose. The XI
Corps resumes its attacks against Zigzag Pass. In the 8th Army area,
elements of the 11th Airborne are dropped along Tagaytay Ridge. The drops
are widely scattered, but the paratroopers are unopposed.

The Homefront
-------------
War Deaths Estimated - Conservative estimates indicate that military death
losses in 1944 totaled more than 2,130,000. Axis losses ranged upward of
1,250,000 and United Nations losses exceeding 880,000.

American Wounded Flown Home - The U.S. Surgeon General's office in Paris
said today that 10% of wounded American soldiers are flown directly home
from Europe. One in every four wounded is flown to Britain. Those who can
recover within a month generally stay in France.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 06:25:19 -0600
From:    Kathy David <kdavid@OPS.ESU19.K12.NE.US>
Subject: Prisoner of War Camps in Nebraska

I am resource teacher for Gifted/Talented.  My students are doing a
history day project on prisoners of war in Nebraska.  They have been to
Atlanta and visited there with a man who wrote a book about it.  If there
is anyone out there who has information or knows of a person who served
in the service corp as a guard and would be willing to correspond with
the students it would be most helpful to their research.  Thanks.

                                        ,,,
                                       (O O)
------------------------------------oOO-( )-OOo----------------------------
   Kathy David                                    402-557-2664
   Omaha Public Schools
   Gifted/Talented Department
   3215 Cuming St.
   Omaha, NE 68131
   kdavid@ops.esu19.k12.ne.us
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:29:36 -0500
From:    John Davis <jbdavis%merlin@NANDO.NET>
Subject: Is the mailing list okay?

1 - Is the list backed up or something, messages have been very slow
coming in to me.

2 - Did my "50 YA" column for 02/02 appear, it never came back to me.

3 - Did the column I just post for 02/03 appear?

I have changed ISP's and my new provider is terrible. I can't trust that news
or mail is coming in or going out properly.

Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:50:41 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

I agree with you Pete, wholeheartedly. The man's political viewpoint hath
distorted his perception such that 'left' is right, and 'right' is wrong.
Whatever the topic.

Margaret:

The reason that Japan did not surrender after Hiroshima was not that they
were getting over ths shock of what happened. The Japanese high council
knew within hours just what had happened over hiroshima. They immediately
began 'spin control' attempts to keep the truth from their own subjects.

They wanted a 'glorious fight ffor the homeland', no matter how many of their
own people died. Remember the casualties from island hopping were about 3 to
1 against the Japanese, and the japanese people were told that the american
fleet had been decimated and the imperial japanese fleet was on the brink of
totally eliminating the US presence in the pacific. Apparently their perception
of the truth today is similarly skewed.

Even afte Nagasaki was bombed, many of the military elite wanted to continue
fighting. They capitulated only when directed to by the emporer himself. Even
then there were attempts to quash the surrender.

No, they weren't getting over any shock, nor were they trying desperatly to
surrender via diplomatic channels.

Source: Reader's Digest Illustrated History of World War II, and THIS LIST!

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:27:20 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:58:58 EST Alan Wild said:
>Hi Ken,... my 1st impression is as Joe describes, cancel before change.
>           Change was debated and compromised, but never wholly acceptable
>           to both parties. If you ask me, donation $ keeps the issue hot.
>           It's political and the Only reason I write is to point that out.
>           What a waste of energy and truth... :-\

Hi back to you (-:

I guess I find it a little difficult when party #1 says to party #2, "Make
these changes, don't debate it, and if you don't make all of them exactly
the way I say, then you are obviously against change."  I'm sorry--that's
just pure arrogance.  I mean, if the Smithsonian was against change, it
would never have bothered to consult with anyone in the first place.  It
isn't required to, after all.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:31:48 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:14:49 -0600 Greg Kelley said:
>Oh, wow, and here I thought no one else read about these obscure wars.

I'm still trying to figure out what the Chaco war was & why wargamers
seem so fond of talking about it (-:

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:48:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Congressional Medal of Honor

Hello, David!

Would just add one comment to your fine post.

The Army convened a board in 1911 to review all previous awards of
this medal with the idea of determining which act warranted the award
and to re-establish or tighten the standards for its award in the
first place. Those found lacking had their names stricken from an
honor roll that was also set up at this time. The medals themselves
were not returned or asked to be, but the recognition from the
government was not there.

    Hope this helps, and thanks.

    Terry
> Not to denegrate General Butler's bravery and accomplishments, but when I
> was researching the Medal of Honor for the interviews I was doing, I read
> that the Medal of Honor was at one point a lot easier to get than it is
> now. I remember for sure that they said that it was relativly easy to get
> in the Civil War and I think they said that the restrictions weren't
> tightened until after WWI, but am not sure. Anyway, it's possible that
> during these conflicts, Mexico, Haiti and Boxer Reb., it may have been
> easier to be awarded the medal. Just my 2c worth.
> David Rising
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:35:09 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:01:59 -0400 Mike Yaklich said:
>And who is this Bernstein dude(I almost want to read his stinking book just so
>I can see what he adduces as evidence for a figure of 60,000 casualties-- it
>would seem pretty obvious that Okinawa on a larger scale would be the most
>plausible scenario, and didn't we lose close to 50,000 men there?).  Has there
>been a line of scholarship on this question that I missed that provided some
>real hard evidence to support the revisionist line on casualties?

I'd say there are two questions:  scholarship on how the estimates were
produced in the first place & "theoretical" scholarship on "accurate"
estimates.  I'm sure there has been some; these are too obvious questions
for enterprising doctoral candidates to ignore (-:  The obvious starting
point for the whole question of the bomb or not the bomb would be the
strategic bombing survey made in the fall of '45 and '46.  This has been
reported to me as concluding that neither bomb nor invasion were/would have
been necessary (its reasons for this, however, do not give moralists much
comfort).  Another starting point would be the paper trail associated with
the estimates themselves.  All this paper is declassified, so far as I know,
available somewhere--maybe the LoC--and surely has been studied by now.
I'd like nothing better to tackle this, but I'm in the middle of selling/
buying houses & barely can keep up with the lists at work any how )-:

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 09:13:54 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:39:41 -0600 Bill Smith said:
>Medical section records provide fairly unbiased, albeit conservative,
>predictions of casualties.  Also, consider the large numbers of medals
>(notably purple heart) that were stocked.  These provide some numeric
>value to the inescapable sense of high casualties expected in light of
>the preceding engagements.
>
>Like it or not, the weight of argument is against low figures.  Prove to
>me, in light of the Iwo, etcs., campaigns that the casualties would be so
>low?  You can construct an argument either way, but there is more
>tangible evidence to support higher numbers.

There is tangible evidence that someone thought there would be high
casualties.  There isn't tangible evidence that casualties would be high.
I understood the statement I reacted to as asserting the latter point and
not the former.

If one wants to argue for the latter POV, it would involve, as I see it,
considering a number of other interesting questions at the same time:
Would invasion have been necessary?  How were the estimates produced
(methodology)?  Would the Iwo/Okinawa campaigns have accurately
represented the case on the mainland?  How long would fighting have
continued?  What was the effect of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria &
what would it have done, sans a-bombing?  How badly was Japan affected
by the mining campaign of the spring/summer of 1945?  How dependent on
outside resources was it?  And so on--not, I think, a cut-and-dried
proposition.  ("So prove it.")

Arguing the former is, or should be, considerably easier, or at least
narrower.  The most direct approach is to consider the question--in
detail--of how the estimates were produced, but there are others, which
would involve that much-overused word, "context".

But asserting any of this as "fact" is senseless.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:32:26 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Ben Frank wrote:

       (some text deleted)
> I recall saying in a meeting where the third revision
> of the exhibit script was being discussed, "From my reading of the script, I
> wonder who won the war." It was that slanted.
       (more text deleted)

Can the original text and the subsequent revisions be posted on the list
so we can judge for ourselves how slanted it was? I don't doubt that it
was, I'd just like to have the facts.

---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Feb 1995 15:19:58 +0100
From:    Wojciech Borczyk <bori@PHYS.AMU.EDU.PL>
Subject: question...

Dear colleagues,

I am looking for any information about the "amphibious jeep" ( Ford model
GPA, also known as "seep" ). Where can I found a "maintenance manual" or any
other complete technical data of this vehicle ? I live in Poland, where
this car is a very rare vehicle. Because of that, the information I've
collected is insufficient for me.

 Greetings -

   Wojciech Borczyk

( bori@phys.amu.edu.pl,
  bori@plpuam11.amu.edu.pl,
  bori@astro.amu.edu.pl )

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:06:03 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

>Robert asks:
>
>"Basically:  What would you like to see in this kind of environment?"
>
>I think the best way to handle this type of display is to use a
>timeline on the wall, starting with how the War in the Pacific got
>started, the battles (both defeats and victories), important events,
>and of course how the war ended.  Photos of events help (the Arizona
>exploding, the Flag on Mt. Suribachi, etc).  For each entry on the
>timeline there should be a legend showing which units were involved,
>and the casualties they had.  The final scene should be the view of
>the surrender deck in Tokyo Harbour, with total casualty figures for
>both sides.

Are you suggesting to leave out the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, photos of the bomb
damage, or is that covered under your etc. ? I don't think you can have a historically accurate
exhibit without it, no more than the story of WWII can be told without mentioning the massive
civilian casualties in Europe (bombs and death camps). Again, the citizens weren't bystanders
and they weren't collateral numbers around the fray: they *were* the target.

Again, I'm not saying this has to come in place of the military context and the considerations of
losses. I just think it's impossibly naiive to think you can open the bombay doors and then drop
the curtain on the show. Certainly, the dropping of the bomb opens up a new chapter in history,
but I do think on this list especially we can appreciate that human endeavors don't divide into
neat, finite chunks; we do that artificially in the histories we write. The end of WWII and the
beginning of the atomic age overlapped. It was a welcome and necessary event for countries at
war, soldiers and their families, even the civilians whose suffering was to end. *And* it also was
a stunning and disturbing introduction to the horrors -- anticipated or unforseen -- of nuclear
warfare and politics.

 We must take responsibility for the consequences of our actions, even, and especially, if that
responsibility rightly is limited to acknowledging what we did.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:36:10 -0500
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sicilian Invasion

I seem to recall some movie that featured Lucky Luciano working
for Allied intelligence (from prison). I think it may have been
the fictionalized Ian Fleming (the James Bond writer) bio movie
starring Sean Connery's son Jason. I think it involved Lucky
Luciano helping British intel capture a German sub off Cuba
or something like that.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Thu Feb 2 1995 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:51:46 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Enola Gay

The _Philadelphia Inquirer_ had an editorial yesterday, 1
February, on the Smithsonian Enola Gay controversy.  I found it
interesting.  Hope you do.  Quoted without permission, all typos
are mine.

             The nation has flunked a history test.  The Smithsonian
        Institution's long nervous breakdown over how to display
        the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the atomic bomb on
        Hiroshima 50 years ago, was a test of whether this nation
        could seriously re-examine a watershed event, not just
        commemorate it.
             Apparently not.
             Bowing to unrelenting pressure from veteran's
        groups and some in Congress, the Smithsonian said Monday that
        its National Air and Space Museum would display only a hunk of
        bomber fuselage, a video about the crew and minimal text.
             There will be no examination of the complex moral
        calculus that led a decent man, Harry S Truman, to order the
        instantaneous incineration of 70,000 men, women and children.
        No review of historians' dispute over the arithmetic of an
        invasion, over whether that alternative would have cost about
        31,000 American lives, or 10 to 20 times more.  No contemplation
        of a half-century lived in the shadow of nuclear weapons.
             Nothing that might teach our children how the
        unspeakable horrors of world war can make the unthinkable seem
        not only possible, but wise.
             Nothing to make any of us think.
             Without any doubt, the museum's original exhibit
        script was unacceptable.  Its single-minded focus on the horror
        of the bomb and the terrors of the nuclear age excluded any fair
        account of what Americans had experienced at the hands of the
        Japanese.  Add its implication that the Japanese were mainly
        victims of racist imperialism, and it's no wonder many Americans
        were enraged.
             Those faults of balance were fixable, and were well
        on their way to being fixed in conversations between the
        curators and their critics.
             But some wouldn't be appeased until the imbalance
        tilted far the other way, until the bomb was depicted as simply
        another triumph of Yankee know-how and valor.
             So the Smithsonian, seeing the flap was headed for
        unsympathetic congressional hearings, has surrendered.
        Smithsonian Secretary I. Michael Heyman said that the exhibit's
        "basic error" was trying to "couple a historical treatment of
        the use of atomic weapons with the 50th anniversary of the end
        of the war."
             Imagine that, trying to get people to think about
        the meaning of atomic weapons by exploring their first and only
        use in warfare.
             That would require a dedication to sincere and open
        historical inquiry.  Positively un-American.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:34:08 -0600
From:    Bob Rogers <rogers@SOL.INSTRUMENTAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Can we really talk sensibly about this without access to the
text of the exhibit?  I suspect the answer is "no", but I'll
comment anyway...

The "moral" decision, if any, was the decision to destroy
Japanese cities.  Use of the atomic bomb was logical in view of
this policy.  Despite the talk here and in the press about
projected invasion casualties, was that number even a factor in
Truman's decision?  Wasn't it a matter of, "we're burning their
country, here's a bit of hardware that will let us burn it
better"?

The a-bomb in 1945 wasn't carrying the symbolic weight it's
taken on in the last 5 decades.

Remember that we did not use gas on the Japanese.  That weapon
had a place in the world's mind of the 1940s roughly similar to
the place held by nuclear weapons today.  Had the US been as
evil as some are portraying it, gas would have been used on
Japan.

Personally, I get mighty tired of modern Japanese and the "we
are so evil" crowd here in the US whining about use of the bomb.
They (the Japanese) sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

--
Bob Rogers            Internet:  rogers@instrumental.com
Instrumental, Inc.    GEnie:     R.C.ROGERS
Minneapolis, MN USA   Phone:     612-920-6188

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:42:22 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in China?

        There is an interesting little book published by the Japan Times called
"Peace Is Our Duty," recollections of a number of Japanese military and
civilian participants of the horrors of WW2, in which several Japanese
"colonists" from Manchuria and Korea talk about their POW experiences in Soviet
hands.  BTW (in reference to my earlier post about how the Japanese appear much
more eager to spread awareness of US "atrocities" than of their own widespread
military behavioral problems), all six of the footsoldiers from the China
theatre interviewed in the book (from three different divisions) had one thing
in common.  All received, as part of their combat indoctrination, the "training
exercize" of bayoneting a live, bound "prisoner"-- this allegedly done so that
all the recruits would have already have experienced killing someone before
they got into combat, thus less likey to have moral qualms about taking a life
the first time they were under fire.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:50:27 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: ONI Stories - Was Sicilian Invasion

Skip,
As the son of another ONI Officer, I find the story intriguing and very
believable... I wish I knew all the storys my Dad took with him in Dec, but
he felt duty bound to keep most of them secret. I do know that he had the
unenviable task of telling "Chesty" Puller that a group of his Marines were
"Gay", including an Officer or two [everyone was terrified of Puller and
what they knew his response would be - Puller was very protective of his
men]. Dad went in and presented his reason for being there - Puller
suggested he was in the wrong place because "Marines don't do that", and
told Dad to leave in somewhat more blunt terms... Dad had to drop explicit
pictures on the desk and tell Col Puller [Dad was a Cdr at that point- one
grade below Puller for the non-military] that the Investigation and
Hearings would take place, either with Pullers assistance or over his
objections... Puller Blew-up and Dad was ordered out. Later my Dad got a
written apology and the promise of cooperation... he always admired
"Chesty" Puller for being big enough to admit "that even Marines can foul
up on occasion".

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:52:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

On 28 Jan 95, Jonathan Perkins wrote:

>         An interesting aside for any folklore/ghost story buffs out there:
> Seems there is an old tale that the admiral's wife was holding a tea party
> while her husband was at sea.  She was somewhat befuddled when people came
> up to her and asked when the admiral had returned home.  She replied that
> he hadn't--he was still away on his maneuvers.  People were adament, however,
> that they had just seen him stalk through the house and enter his study.
> Upon searching, the admiral was nowhere to be found--not surprising, as he
> had already drowned, trapped aboard his ship.  The eerie part is that the
> time of the accident coincided almost exactly with his "phantom" appearance
> at the tea party......  Take it as you will--maritime history is full of
> strange, unexplained folktales such as this, however.

Jonathan,
     If you like a good maritime ghost story, I'm sure you're familiar
with the U.S.S. Yorktown's ghosts.  Just in case, I'm tell the story.
The U.S.S. Yorktown (CV-5) was bombed at Midway by aircraft from the
Japanese carrier _Hiryu_ and two days later she was torpedoed and sunk
by the Japanese submarine _I-168_.  When she sank, there were three men
trapped below her decks bravely playing acey-duecey because they had
realized that they could not be rescued.  When the new U.S.S. Yorktown
(CV-10) was commissioned in 1943, many sailors reported mysteriously
hearing the sounds of a card game coming from the equivalent room on
the new carrier.  Just thought you might find this interesting (-:

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:59:09 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Westerly History (2 of 5): Pasquale Grocchia

Friends, here is another Westerly narrative.  I'll try
to be more accurate: This is the *draft* of a "local
history summary" based on a 74-page transcribed
interview.  The transcript will be preserved, but the
following is what readers of the finished compilation
will more likely see.  This particular subject was so
fascinating I got a little immoral and reduced the
hardcopy point size to 9 from 10 so I could claim it
falls within the 1.5-page limit I've been given.
(Don't tell my aunt--it's not like I'm getting
graded.)

I did check a map and the only WWII reference I own
(Reader's Digest Illus. History of WWII) this time,
but I still think there are errors (see my queries).
I've done a 3d-person summation (my stuff), but
anything within double quotation marks are 1st-person
remarks (Pasquale's) I hated to leave out.

Again, all comments are so much appreciated.
Gratefully yours, Cheryl
-----------------

Narrator:  PASQUALE P. GROCCIA, World War II

Brief Biographical Background:
DOB:  April 14, 1922
POB:  Westerly, RI (Oak Street)
Post-military experience:  Cook (retired 1983)

Branch of Service:  Volunteer OSS and Ranger, Allied
Forces Unit
Special Awards (American):   Arrowhead patch; Bronze
Star; Good Conduct Medal; European and African ribbon;
Middle Eastern Service Medal
Special Awards (Italian):  Italian War Cross; Cross of
Merit

1

HIGHLIGHTS/ANECDOTES OF THE MILITARY EXPERIENCE:
Pasquale did not graduate from high school because
1938 was financially tough.  From age 16-18, he worked
for Greyhound Post houses.  He then worked on the NY-
New Haven-Hartford railroad at 45 cents an hour to
help support his parents.  When war broke out, he
badly wanted to go and "just made it" past the 5-foot
minimum height requirement.  He left Westerly for Ft.
Devens, MA, then Camp Breckenridge, KY, after being
given a "kitchen breakfast" send-off with other
Westerly boys by the local Elks club.  Basic training
at Camp Breckenridge included 5- to 25-mile hikes with
part of a mortar on his shoulder.  Pasquale was in
good condition, however, and he had moral support from
Westerly friends in the same camp--Paplas Posato,
George Sivetto (Pasquale's cousin), and Frankie
[Westerly qry.--a.k.a. "Slim"?] Algiere.  One time his
parents visited Kentucky bringing soup and Italian
food that Pasquale shared with the other Westerly
boys.  His parents, like many Westerly Italians, came
from Calabria in southern Italy.

2

     He initially trained to calibrate and shoot 81mm
mortars [see temp. endnote Groccia-1] , which required
some knowledge of mathematics.  Pasquale eventually
volunteered for jump training because there was an
opportunity for soldiers who could speak Italian to go
to Italy, which he wanted to do.  The men who
interviewed him for this special training were with an
OG (Operational Group).  They later became known as
the OSS  (Office of Strategic Services) under General
Donovan [see endnote Groccia-2], "the most decorated
soldier of WWI."

3

     Pasquale's OSS group had 120 men.  The OSS itself
was quite big--there were battalions, French and
Yugoslavian OGs, and OSS as far away as the South
Pacific.  During the war the OSS did not get much
publicity, but afterwards Hollywood made a movie
called _Philippine through Madelayne_, a cloak-and-
dagger story starring Alan Ladd.  Pasquale's first
stop as an OSS recruit was to the congressional
Country Club in Washington, DC.  "We started to take
training...and we had our first casualty there....[We]

4

had these stilettos that [just the weight of] could
penetrate your hand."  A man named Pope, upon turning
around, was accidentally pierced by such a stiletto.
Confidential training took place on presidential-
retreat grounds (perhaps Camp David) in Maryland.
They then had demolition training at Ft. Belboar
[ed.?], VA, where Pasquale got some shrapnel in his
head, the only wound he would get during the war.
After arriving overseas in 1943 on a large convoy,
Pasquale's OSS unit was not attached to any particular
division or army--"Anybody who wanted us, we had to
go....We did work for the British,...the 4th
Corp,...the French...."  His unit was prepared to do
work at a moment's notice.

5

     His first stop overseas was Oran, Algiers.  From
there he went via destroyer to Jacksville [ed: ?] on
the African side of Corsica for his first mission.  He
and 29 other OSS men met with French Moroccans who
wore the hoods and capes of the French-African foreign
legion.  Together they worked to get the Germans out
of northern Corsica.  The Germans had 8,000 battalions
in Corsica.  Many of the Italians gave themselves up
and joined the Allies.  Pasquale's group made their
way through Corsica toward Bastia, the biggest German
port [ed: on Corsica? in the Mediterranean?].  There
were usually several casualties whenever the men went
behind German lines to blow up tanks, bridges,
ammunition dumps, etc. because the Germans were well
entrenched among mountains.  The Germans, who never
intended to stay in Corsica, finally left one night.
Pasquale could see their warships, submarines, and E-
boats in the port.  "One morning and nobody was there.
They were all gone."  Pasquale noted that the E-boats
were made of steel while American PT boats were made
of plywood.  His unit took enough supplies for a 30-
day stay on Corsica, but actually stayed for 45 days
as it was difficult to oust the Germans.

6

     By the time other military groups landed on
Corsica, Pasquale left on a PT boat with five other
OSS men to the hilly island of Caprior [prob. Capraia]
to do observation work.  If they saw a German ship,
they radioed Bastia so an American ship could go forth
to encounter the Germans.  There were a few French
natives on Capraia who once "covered for" the OSS when
a German E-boat came to the island.  "We radio for
[Bastia] because an E-boat was in the port and they
came and caught them in the port and torpedoed them
and that took care of that boat."  After two weeks
enduring C-rations, which Pasquale compared to
"stones," he left Capraia for Corsica and then for
Siena, Italy along with 129 other OSS men via a Navy
landing craft.

7

     At this time, the summer of 1944, the front lines
were in Bologna and the Allies were stopped.  The 4th
Corp, 5th Army called for help from the OSS because
they wanted to know what the Germans had in a small
town just below Bologna.  On or around November 26,
1944, Pasquale went with seven others to "no-man's
land."  He was lagging behind when the others in the
group, including a Lieutenant Schneider, got trapped
by a German patrol. "I went around and I fired at
them, which I killed seven, and there was just two
left that we took prisoners."  There was no radio
communication.  The only way his group could tell the
4th Corp what they learned was to walk back with only
their water and ammunition.  Later,  in Mayo, Italy,
Pasquale received the Bronze Star for his action.  He
attributes the fortune of his having lagged behind to
God.  "It has got to be God....I saved all of them."

8

     Soon afterwards  he and two partisans undertook a
mission to blow up a bridge with demolition G-2 [prob.
C-2], a plastic explosive.  "In Italy, all your
bridges have one stone and it is the last stone put in
there, in the middle of the bridge and you pull it
out, it is not cemented in.  We put our demolition in
and the time fuse in there and the cap and we left."
Pasquale credits the anti-Mussolini Italian partisans
for doing tremendous work.  "They would ambush German
soldiers, they would blow up ammo dumps, anything that
they could do to hurt the Germans, they would do."

9

     Hed in the execution
of the men was General Dostler.  The bodies of these
men, shot in the head, were later found because two
captured Germans and many Italian people testified
against Dostler.

12

     After the war ended, Pasquale left northern Italy
for headquarters in Siena, where he stayed for a month
before going on to Naples.  "From Naples, I was on the
back of a truck and these sailors were walking and
this guy yelled of it.  I said, 'No thanks, I've jumped enough in
my life.'"  He returned to Italy in 1947 to marry a
girl he met and got engaged to while in Siena.  He
married her on 10/25/47 and brought her back to
Westerly on 12/23/47.  Five years later he "called
for" her mother and father as she was an only child.
He worked as a cook at Joe's Diner in Groton and,
later, the Colonial Restaurant, formerly known as the
State Line Lunch, nelescopic
sight, which allowed the gunner to sight on nearby
ranging sticks to be sure of the range and direction
in which he was firing.

15

     "The mortar projectile is a tear-drop shaped bomb
with fins on the narrower end to give it some
stability in flight.  The tail of the mortar bomb also
contains a propellant cartridge, sometimes with
boosting charges added to the bomb's tail fins if
extra range was needed.  The mo
simple parabolic trajectory to its target, which could
be as close as a few hundred yards or as far away as
3200 yards depending upon the mortar's elevation and
the propellant charge used.  Mortars weren't designed h wartime head of
the SIS]
hoping to gain some influence over its operations in
Europe.  But OSS soon outgrew any foreign help.  Its
teams swarmed over Europe and North Africa.  By the
end of the war Allen Dulles, its chief in Switzerland,
was running a powerful network which had relations
with anti-Hitler Germans and with serving officers
hoping to make the best possible deal when the
inevitable defeat arrived.  OSS was close

Cheryl                                    cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:11:06 EST
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Ecuador v/s Peru

Text deleted:

>Hey, Mike, if you're reading this, the Peruvian Air Force had an
>Italian Military Mission until about 1938----- any info??

>Gotta go.  More later, sometime, hopefully....


                                          >Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          >Greg Kelley
                                          >St. Paul Public Library
                                          >gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us


According to Jane's, the Italians had Air missions in both
countries prior to the outbreak of war in Europe.  At that time
they were recalled, to be replaced in both countries, by American
missions.

    Steve L. New
    NEWST@IX.NETCOM.COM
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:06:07 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Law of Armed Conflict

There were a few postings last week about attacks on downed pilots so I
thought I'd dig out some information on the Law of Armed Conflict that might
be of interest to the List.  While it may seem like war and "playing by the
rules" are mutually exclusive, there are specific rules regarding what one
can and can't do (by the rules) during wartime.  Of course, everything is
subject to interpretation. . .

On the subject of downed pilots -

Persons who, to save themselves, parachute from an aircraft in distress
should not be attacked while descending.  Once reaching the ground an
aircrew member should be given the opportunity to surrender before being
fired upon.  If the aircrew member engages in a hostile act (like shooting
a weapon), he's fair game.

It is also interesting to note that airborne troops are considered combatants,
and are, therefore, not protected by this rule.

                            Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:27:04 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Hawker Hurricane

In reference to the construction of the Hurricane;
The following is taken from "Fighter - The True Story of the Battle of
Briton" by Len Deighton pgs.90-91.
" ..in the summer of 1936, the Hawker Hurricane was born.
So the Hurricane was a monoplane version of the Hawker Fury. It used the
same patent construction: a wire braced framework of metal tubes. Round
this was built a wooden frame, of formers and stringers. Fabric was
stretched over the outside. At first not even the wings were of stressed
-metal construction, but metal ones were designed before full-scale
production was started.
The Hurricane was not a monocoque construction. It was an old fashioned
wood-and-fabric machine, stiffened by a metal-tube framework. It was a
halfway house between the old biplanes and the new Spitfires and yet
there were certain advantages to this construction. The exploding cannon
shells, which did terrible damage to metal skin, had less effect upon
any sort of girder work.
And the RAF had very few men who understood the complexities of stressed
-metal construction, but it's airframe fitters and flight mechanics had
spent their lives servicing, and rigging, aircraft like this. When
fighting started, many seriously damaged Hurricanes were repaired in
squadron workshops."
As usual, typos are mine etc...
Mike


Michael Long
Programmer Analyst II
University of Connecticut
196 Auditorium Road, U-138    |   Bitnet: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
Storrs, Connecticut, USA      | Internet: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    Phone: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:39:54 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:ENOLA GAY

"Who the hell cares what the Japanese think about it...?  -- Ben FRank.

Spoken with soldierly directness.

This very day, a group of British veterans of the SEcond World War are
Tokio, attending a large class-action suite against the Japanese
government for reparations to Allied prisoners-of-war brutalized while
in Japanese captivity.
The ex-PWs started Japanese court procedings last Monday, suing Japan for
$700 million in compensation for wartime brutality.
The group speaks on behalf of 25,000 Allied PWs, seeking L14,000 (sterling)
each in damages. Tokio says the compensation issue was already dealt with
under a 1951 treaty, when victims each received L76 (sterling) $150 US.

If there is such exquisite "sensitivity" around these days, maybe some
of it could be saved for *our* people who were victims.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:02:11 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Jim Brady asks:

"Are you suggesting to leave out the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
photos of the bomb damage, or is that covered under your etc. ? I don't
think you can have a historically accurate exhibit without it, no more
than the story of WWII can be told without mentioning the massive
civilian casualties in Europe (bombs and death camps)."

It may not have come across real clear, but my intent was to have a display
showing a photographic account of actions by both sides.  If we are to
show how cruel we were to the civilian population of an area, we must temper
it with photographic evidence of cruely by the other side as well.  By
only showing how cruel one side was is exactly what the problem is.  I
think we can all agree that war is hell, and it's hell on both sides.  But
to try and portray the USA as the evil aggressor on WWII and the Japanese
as the innocent victims of American imperialism is simply not right.

---

Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |
National Semiconductor   |           DON'T   TREAD   ON   ME               |
Santa Clara, Ca          |                                                 |
alan@berlioz.nsc.com     |                                                 |

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:07:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distance to Tokyo

Hello, Ben!

Thank you very much for you answer. I had an idea it was in that
vicinity but not quite sure. I am scheduled to give make a formal
presentation on the Iwo Jima struggle on 26 Feb, and just needed to
have my idea about distances confirmed or changed. In time, I may
have a more difficult question for you.

I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my query, albeit
not very thought provoking. :-)

All the best to you, Ben.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:14:25 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

> Can we really talk sensibly about this without access to the
> text of the exhibit?  I suspect the answer is "no", but I'll
> comment anyway...
>
> The "moral" decision, if any, was the decision to destroy
> Japanese cities.  Use of the atomic bomb was logical in view of
> this policy.  Despite the talk here and in the press about
> projected invasion casualties, was that number even a factor in
> Truman's decision?  Wasn't it a matter of, "we're burning their
> country, here's a bit of hardware that will let us burn it
> better"?

What a lot of people tend to forget is how a war is really waged.  It
is rarely like Baghdad, where, at least according to media accounts, you
can hit specific targets -- hit the bridge, but make sure you miss the
guy riding the bicycle.

War, especially during WWII, was a effort of wholesale destruction.  You
didn't have the long range ability to fly deep inside enemy territory,
destroy the infastructure and hope the edges wither away and the core finally
capitulate.  In fact, there was no way to destroy the infastructure.  You
didn't have the technology to do much more than destroy the centers of
operation.

War 50 years ago was destruction on a massive scale.  Even the relatively
"protected" places were subjected to huge damage.  And, as is human nature,
people congregate and build cities around major economic centers.  In other
words, the more substantial the capability of a place for making war goods,
the more likely it was surrounded by civilians and therefore became a city.

A center of operation.  A major target.   Look at today's targets that were
identified all over the old Soviet Union and their primary, secondary and
tertiary targets in Europe and the U.S.  The primary targets tend to be
operational centers which -- not ironically -- also tended to be population
centers.

Cities were being systematically destroyed, fire bombed and wrecked all over
Europe, North Africa, England and in the Pacific.

But the goal of a war, besides winning, is to force the enemy to quit while
at the same time keeping your own losses to a minimum.

In this kind of war, it really doesn't matter what the effect is on the
enemy.  It's a cruel and inhuman statement to make, but if you had a choice
between saving 60,000 (using the lower number) of your troops or increasing
your casualties in order to protect the enemy, what's likely to get support?
When every step of the way was literally fought man to man and to almost the
very last man, who would ever have believed that the desire to protect the
home islands -- and families -- would be less than the effort and determination
on Saipan, Guam, Okinawa ... Places that _aren't_ considered as "home"?

War is far less a question of morality and "proper" technique than it is of
getting it over with for the least cost and burden OF ONE SIDE.  The simple
goals of the Allied Forces in the Pacific (anywhere, really) is to minimize
Allied casualties while maximizing the damage on the enemy and forcing that
enemy to quit the war.

In 1945, the atomic bomb was seen as a device that did NOT cause more
destruction than conventional weapons (it didn't), but was a device that
made continuing that war much easier.  One aircraft vs. 1,000.  If the
war had to be fought to the same extremes as all that led up to the home
islands, then the tools were there which helped protect your own lives.

In reality, during war, that's your primary concern.  Not what some people
will think about the destruction and loss of lives inflicted on the enemy
some 50 years later.  You do what you have to do and get out intact.  It
ain't no numbers game.  It's life and death.  Yours, primarily.

> The a-bomb in 1945 wasn't carrying the symbolic weight it's
> taken on in the last 5 decades.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons has a much bigger risk than it did 50 years
ago.  The destructive capability of even the smallest weapons is far greater
than that used then, plus its use would almost guarantee a massive retaliation
in kind.

It must be remembered that many weapons have been seen with the same type
of morality question.  There are references to the banning of aircraft to
wage war.  Before that, the machine gun was seen as a brutal and inhuman
weapon.  Before that, any kind of firearm was in that category.  I once saw,
and wish I knew where, attempts in Europe to agree to the banning of the
longbow because of its inhuman and devastating effects on troops.

There are a lot of lessons from Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- And, because those
events happened, a lot of questions were answered in advance.  I have no
doubts that the future use of these weapons was probably severely curtailed
because the capabilities were proven in a real world example.  (No, I don't
condone wiping out a city to try something new in the future... :-)

> Remember that we did not use gas on the Japanese.  That weapon
> had a place in the world's mind of the 1940s roughly similar to
> the place held by nuclear weapons today.  Had the US been as
> evil as some are portraying it, gas would have been used on
> Japan.
>
> Personally, I get mighty tired of modern Japanese and the "we
> are so evil" crowd here in the US whining about use of the bomb.
> They (the Japanese) sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 14:29:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Malmedy Massacre

     I have just started reading Trevor Dupuy's _Hitler's Last Gamble:
The Battle of the Bulge_ and I have come across something that I never
heard of before.  According to Dupuy, the facts of the Malmedy Massacre
and the subsequent trial are both less than clear as to whether or not
the Nazis actually murdered the men in cold blood or whether many were
killed in battle or while trying to escape.  Dupuy goes on to say that
the men who were sentenced may have been railroaded.  I have never known
Dupuy to be a revisionist, but there's always a first time.  Does any-
body know anything more about the Massacre or the trial which can
shed some light on whether or not Dupuy was in fact correct?

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:32:03 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mike Yaklich/WWIIsongs

        Sorry if I've offended anyone's sensibilities with the use of the
appellation "Commie."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:50:12 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sicilian Invasion

        There was a movie about Luciano, the title I think was "Lucky," (it
might have been a made-for-TV job) in which his collaboration with the Allies
in Sicily is featured.  I don't recall if all the details of that great story
just posted on the list are recounted, but seem to remember the substance of it
WAS in the movie.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:19:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: Shame Of The Smithsonian

In my opinion, Ben Frank is right on!  Who gives a damn about what the Japanese think?  Let them think in public about the rape of Nanjing and Bataan and a few other things for awhile.

It is obvious that they had an agenda in getting involved with the debate.  They identified it.

The speech I heard recently made it sound like the Smithsonian was just telling the truth, but people didn't want to hear it.  What the people didn't want to hear is the revisionists re-writing history to further their agenda.  I believe that their actions dishonor General Tibbits and everyone else who participated in the war.

Personally, I think there should be a wholesale housecleaning!

george.bauer@citynet.com

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:54:45 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

John Ausland writes:

>  I will bring this to the attention of my contacts at the
>International Herald Tribune and CNN and hope others with media
>contacts will do the same.  As the anniversary of the Japanese
>surrender approaches, it is important that the public be aware of
>these events so as to understand that, despite Hiroshima, it is not to
>be excluded that the war would not have ended when it did.
>  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

Please do, John. Perhaps there would be a little less US bashing and
Japanese worship in the media when it is discovered that Truman was
very probably RIGHT in his decision to drop both bombs, and even then
how narrowly the peace process managed to survive.

The truth about WW-II/Pacific is not japan bashing no more than the
truth about WW-II/Europe is germany bashing. True perception even
today must see the bombs as necessary if many of us are to have fathers
and grandfathers. And that the japanese culture has survived...

Cheers!                                                         Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:00:57 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

R. Vining

the project was mounting Polaris Missiles ON an Iowa, I can get you
the plan numberas if you would like.  Meant in the phrase that Polaris
missiles are mounted ON a polaris sub.  A broadside refers to a battleship
firing all of its guns to one side at the same time, and is used as in
'the broadside of the ship is x tons' this terminology dates form the
time when a ship mounted all of its guns pointing to one side or the
other and delivering a 'broadside' (all of them) at a target, it refers
to SHOOTING the ordinance and not to RECEIVING it.  Please ask if you
are not sure what something means next time.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:20:56 -0600
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is the mailing list okay?

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, John Davis wrote:

> 2 - Did my "50 YA" column for 02/02 appear, it never came back to me.

John

I received this column.

C.K.

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:20:58 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Sorry Jim, I meant: KEN are your brains scrambled....

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:22:23 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <bwroblew@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Ascension Island

        During the late 1950's I spent some months on Ascension Island
building and installing a radar. During WWII Ascension was used as a
way station on the Brazil to Africa route for ferrying aircraft. During
my stay there, I came across some interesting stories about the use of
the island during wartime. I'm hoping that someone on this list had
first hand experience there and can either verify, amend or discount
these tales.

1) Attacks on water supply.
        Since Ascension is a volcanic island, before the Americans in-
stalled a salt water distillation unit, its water supply consisted of a
paved area in the bowl of an extinct volcano which caught the rains from
passing low level clouds which covered its summit. This water was piped
down to sea level tanks near the beach.
        I was told that during WWII these tanks were sometimes shelled
by passing German submarines. True? If so, how often, when and how
effective were the shellings?

2) Building the airstrip
        I was told that before the Americans arrived, the British had
tried for years to build an airstrip on the island. Since the terrain
consists of porous volcanic rock, their use of construction explosives
was not very effective because the explosive forces were absorbed by
the rock without much breakage. The Americans on the other hand used
a brute force method which, while doing the job, consisted of a humong-
ous volume of explosives and resulted a really dramatic "Big Bang" !
True? Or is this just another Urban (Islandic?) legend?

3) Aircraft lost in crashes
        At the end of the airstrip I was shown some debris which was
alleged to be the remains of crashed aircraft. Apparently, the planes
being ferried to Africa and the ETO, took off rather heavily loaded
with fuel and cargo, and occasionally one of them did not clear the
low hill at the end of the runway. True? If so, any record of how
many crashed, when and what were the casualties?

4) This is not a story but a question
        At the time I was on Ascension, most of our supplies came in
on C124 cargo planes because no landing facilities were available for
ships. The small British population received their mail and packages
from the Britain to Cape Town ship anchored offshore. Communication
between them and the ship was via small boat.
        My question is how did the Americans supply the island with
the obviously large amount of fuel and supplies needed for such a
large operation?

5) Other questions
        How many and what type of aircraft passed through Ascension
during the course of the war? When did the operation begin? When did
it end? Were any aircraft modifications required for this operation?


        Thank you for any knowledge or experiences you may wish to share.

                Bruno


**

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:25:24 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

        I wanted to add a few quick comments to my posts on this topic.  The
first is that Major Hatanaka became the leading figure in the conspiracy not
due to rank or position, but because of his energy and obvious conviction and
sincerity-- a kind of moral ascendancy over his peers, although thats a tough
term to use given the inherent immorality of some of his subsequent actions.
Also I wanted to mention that two of the reasons the coup attempt itself was so
haphazard and disjointed were that 1.) the conspirators tried to the bitter end
to enlist the support of senior officers, and were basically improvising when
they had to go it alone in the end, and 2.) Hatanaka had to make the
arrangements in the last 48 hours before the coup was launched by travelling
from place to place and person to person on a bicycle, so thoroughly had
bombing and blockade depleted the resources of the home island and interrupted
communications.
        Thank you, John, for your kind comments.


        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:35:02 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <Burt_Knight.ZIFF-DAVIS%LNGATE@ZCIAS1.ZIFF.COM>
Subject: Re: World War 2 Music

I would put 'Lili Marlene' on the top of the list. Very popular with both Axis
and Allied Soldiers in Europe.  The Lale Andersen recording is available (in
German) and I know of at least 20 different recordings in English.  Trivial
note: The English Words (most popular version) were written by the same writer
who wrote 'I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus'.  Who was he??

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:35:10 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <Burt_Knight.ZIFF-DAVIS%LNGATE@ZCIAS1.ZIFF.COM>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

Peru's Italian Mission- Est May 1937.  Built a Caproni Company factory which
produced only 12 Ca 100 light trainers (At exhorbitant cost). Military mission
terminated 'at the outbreak of the European war' and the factory sat idle until
nationalised in 6/1/41. Factory was said to be the largest in South America.
The Peruvian government bought 'a number' of Italian aircraft (Janes is Vague
on number) which 'gave considerable trouble and the factory was mainly engaged
on the repair and reconstruction of these aircraft.'

Peruvian miltary aircraft (1945)
Fighters: Curtiss Falcon, Curtiss Hawk, Chance-Vought Corsair, North American
NA-50 (whatever the NA 50 was.  The P51 was the NA73, the B25 was the NA63 and
the Texan NA number isn't mentioned in Janes)
Bombers: Fairey Gordon, Douglas 8A-3P (another What is it!!)

Ecuador Military Aircraft (1945)
Fighters: Republic (Seversky) P-35

Both Countries used Ju52-3ms for transports

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:41:51 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mike Yaklich/WWIIsongs

        Sorry, my last reply to this posting was cut short by inadvertently
hitting the "send" command before I was finished.  My apologies if the use of
the term "Commie" offended anyone on the list.  My intention was entirely
humorous.  I've never been a big fan of the term "politically correct" as its
come to be construed today, mainly because "PC" has become a derogatory term in
the political usage its received in the last couple of years.  Personally, the
term to me means simply that one does not refer to a person or a group of
people by insulting or derogatory terms and nick-names, and I wonder about
those people who boast about being "anti-PC" or "politically incorrect."
Perhaps I'm confusing how I interpret the term with many of the outlandish
attitudes that get slapped with the perjorative "politically correct" tag by
right-wing radio talk show hosts and others.  To me, true political correctness
means you don't call homosexual people "fags" or "dykes," or refer to our
citizens of African descent by any of the myriad of other terms white America
has invented for them, or Samuel Elliot Morison doesn't go around referring to
the Regia Marina as the "dago navy," etc.  All of the above are not really
examples of "political correctness" at all, just common human decency.  I hope
typing in a few of the truly offensive terms in my example won't get others on
the list even more upset at me.  If it does, my apologies, that was not my
intent, and those who've read my past posts realize (I hope) that I do not
generally (in fact, ever) stray into ethnic, sexual-preference, or any other
kind of derogatory name-calling, so a repetition need not be feared.  Perhaps
my own familiarity with (and wild youth flirtation with) the American left has
led me to believe I could use the term "Commie" with a sort of endearment, the
way members of some ethnic groups can casually use epithets with each other
that would certainly lead to a fight if pronounced by someone of a different
ethnicity.  Anyway, sorry about that....
        BTW, its funny how the term "politically correct" has sort of come full
circle.  Didn't it originate in the Communist International during Stalin's
day?  And didn't it further have the connotation of adhering to the Party line?
Nowadays it seems to be used as an example of and synonym to "liberal
hand-wringing" and other such terms fashionable on the right.  Hey, now that
you mention it, what would you call an organized political movement that
believes chiefly in freedom for business to do business, with the minimum
governmental restraints to the pursuit of profits, one that basically believes
that if free from governmental interference (and perhaps with just a little
government support) the economic life of the nation will sort itself out just
fine, to the betterment of all (or at least all who own and operate
businesses)?  Well, in 1850 or so, you'd call that party and that political
philosophy "liberal."  Ain't language a funny thing....

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

PS: will it help everyone not to get mad at me if I type about forty or so of
these silly :-) icons all over the place (sorry, that's one piece of, dare I
say it, "politically correct" internet etiquette I just have a built-in
resistance to using...:-)
PPS: I wasn't aware that the song "Strange Fruit" (about KKK lynchings) from
the same Robert Wyatt album was a Billy Holiday number.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:51:05 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <df@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:ENOLA GAY

Ben, the tough part of being the nice guys of the world (that's how we
viewed ourselves in the 1940s, 1950s, and partway into the 1960s:) is
that we *do* have to consider what the other folks think, even if what
they think is that we are a bunch of bastards.

But keep 'em flying, anyhow!

                 - Dan    <dan.ford@unh.edu>

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Ben Frank wrote:
> I feel that I must really respond to the Japanese attitudes reported in this
> story. First of all, who the hell cares what the Japanese think about the Enola
> Gay matter. Secondly, when Japanee leaders begin apologizing for the sneak
> attack on Pearl Harbor, the way they treated American POWs, and all the rest we
> have called them to account for, maybe then, and only then should we concern
> ourselves with what they think. I must say that even when fighting the Japanese
> in the Pacific in World War II, I was not as exercised about them as I am
> currently. I don't know if any of my fellow WWII vets of the Pacific War feel
> that way. Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:47:31 -0500
From:    John Cropp <jcropp@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Enola Gay

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, James E Irwin wrote:

>    TOKYO  -- In the latest trans-Pacific clash over how to
> commemorate the end of World War II, Japanese reacted angrily
> Tuesday to the cancellation of a U.S. exhibit on the atomic bombings
> of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>    Many conservatives and Japan's small but vocal rightist fringe
> insist that World War II was a Japanese attempt to free Asia of
> Western colonial powers, and that Japan need not apologize.
>
Evidently both sides suffer from revisionist historians and the
politically correct.  Sigh!  Keep fighting the good fight-seeking truth.

                           All my best,
                           John

John L. Cropp                      *   "Quomodo manibus mortalis
jcropp@freenet.columbus.oh.us      *    talia magna opera
11041 Fancher Rd.                  *    coquinaria?"
Westerville, OH 43082              *

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 18:00:02 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <df@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invasion Casualties Japan (was Enola Gay)

For what it's worth, I have been reading the Spaatz and Lemay papers at
the Library of Congress, and as late as August 1945 they were still
working up plans to speed production and improve performance of the B-29,
move 750 B-29s onto Okinawa under Jimmy Doolittle's 8th Air Force, get
some squadrons of RAF Lancasters onto Okinawa also, adapt the B-29 to
carry 22,000 lb British Tall Boy bombs, and replace the 20th Air Force
air crews on a schedule going out to March 1946.

                 - Dan    <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 18:03:08 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: POW, MIA stamp

Sorry about the cross-post for the Milhst people but I thought both
groups would be interested
to know that the post office (U.S.) has announced that it will be issuing
a stamp honoring the veterans who were PoW's and those who are still MIA.
It will be a 32c stamp and will be issued May 29, Memorial Day.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 18:57:07 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: book reviews (and obscure Romanian steamers)

        To start off, let me say to Greg Kelley, didn't want to get your hopes
up with that subject line.  Actually, I looked in the one source I had access
to that you didn't mention (the "Victory Edition" of "Warships of the World,"
published 1946, editor Kafka-- often filled with info of borderline accuracy
but I've found ships in there that are not mentioned in some contemporary
Jane's), but found nothing on either the DACIA or the REGELE CAROL I, despite
six or eight pages on Romania.  Only two minelayers listed, they were both
apparently purpose-built and constructed 1939-40 so I figured you probably knew
all about them already, given the depth of your knowledge on the subject.  So,
sorry...To be honest, I don't have the in-depth knowledge of many of the
technical details of WW2 weapons systems and military hardware possessed by
many on this list-- that's why I find the list so valuable, I can pick everyone
else's brains all the time (heh, heh).   There are always people out there who
know the nuts and bolts, guns and ammo stuff better than I do, especially war
gamers etc.  Otherwise, why would I have to ask dumb questions like "where is
the Savoia-Marchetti factory?"  I guess my own strong suit, if I have one, is
the operational/strategic/tactical/political angles of the areas I'm interested
in, and a sort of comprehensive knowledge of the conflict (i.e., I know a
little about a lot of different things).  I realize I use this list as a
resource a lot, because the technical armaments stuff does interest me greatly,
and compared with the average layman (as opposed to the average listmember) I
guess my "knowledge" of WW2 weaponry etc would seem impressive.  However, this
list has a way of making one humble.  That's why whenever there is an area I
can help out on, I try to post whatever I can-- paying back to the common
resource pool.  That's why its a real "mea culpa" for me not to be able to be
much help to someone like Greg who has already provided me with a wealth of
material, but to be honest, if its about Romania and Greg can't find it, I'm
pretty sure little ol' me ain't gonna come up with it either....

        Having publically paraded my guilt at my lamentable shortcomings, I
would like to thank two listmembers (owners) for reading suggestions which led
me to some first-rate books.  Namely, Larry Watts' "Romanian Cassandra" (thanks
Greg) and James Sadkovich's "The Italian Navy In World War Two" (thanks Joe).
For anyone interested at all in these two admittedly somewhat obscure topics
("Romanian Cassandra" is a biography of Marshal Ion Antonescu, the military
dictator of Romania throughout most of the war), I'd hardily recommend these
works.  Both are "revisionist" history in its best sense-- attacking a
commonly-held view which is not however substantiated by a full exposition of
the facts.  Both use a lot of hard evidence to convincingly state their case,
in most cases evidence not fully explored by previous historical works on the
subject (and this is where true historical revisionism parts company from the
politically-driven variety-- not entering with an ax to grind and building the
case from there, but looking at documentary evidence on the subject which has
been under-explored to challenge long-held assumptions.  The best of the
revisionist Soviet historians I posted about earlier did the same thing.)  The
revisionist claims in question are, in Watts' case, just about every
commonly-held assumption about Antonescu, who emerges looking like one of the
best men to grace the cesspool of Romanian politics in the first half of the
century-- part of the problem with Antonescu being that his life, though of
obvious importance to the 20th-Century history of his country, has been so
little explored, mainly due to the anathema posthumously associated with his
regime.  I haven't finished Sadkovich yet, but his "revisionism" consists of
challenging such claims as "the Italian Navy was gunshy" or "clung to its
ports" or that the British established a "moral ascendancy" over their Italian
counterparts as early as the battle of Punta da Stilo (July 1940), or even
that, among the many admitted failings of Italian naval equipment and policy,
the failure to build aircraft carriers was of the paramount importance
sometimes attributed.  I could go on at greater length about both books, but
will let anyone interested read them for themselves.  Thanks again to Greg
Kelley and Joe Barone for making me aware of the existence of these works!!

PS: It was particularly gratifying to read the introduction of Sadkovich's book
and see that reading Bragadin and Faldella were the beginning of "seeing the
light."  While I am nowhere near the calibre of scholar Mr Sadkovich is, I felt
pretty good because I too had read Bragadin and Faldella (struggling through
the latter in Italian--phew!!) in coming to the same conclusion that the
Italian role in the war has been grossly misrepresented (or at least
misinterpreted) by most non-Italian authors.  Seeing other people I've read
also repeatedly cited by Sadkovich, like Ernesto Bagnasco, Giuseppe Santoro,
and one or two more I can't recall offhand, was also a good feeling because it
leads me to believe I'm on the right track in my own reading program.  In fact,
I'm thinking of posting to the list the introduction to a lengthy piece about
the Italian armored divisions I myself wrote a couple years ago (but did not
feel was appropriate for publication in its existing form), the general tone is
so close to that in Sadkovich's intro (except of course for Sadkovich's
superior scholarship).  Anyway, I realize I've been posting a lot lately, I'm
planning to shut up now and go have a three-day weekend, so you'll all have a
little break from my screeds.  Thanks again, and sorry I couldn't help, Greg.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

        "Oh Lord, do not let the Romanian suffer as much as he can bear"
                (Romanian peasant proverb)

PPS  Hey, Joe, I know I took a pass on those photos you have, but you didn't
say anything about the giant mortar.  Maybe once you download it to the
day-by-day archives I'll have to dig it up by FTP-- that thing sounds like its
worth a look.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:38:45 EST
From:    Frozen In Western Michigan!! <BWERNER@IST01.FERRIS.EDU>
Subject: Media: Johnny Hopper article.

I know this is a bit late, and someone may have already spotted it:

I found a very interesting article in the September, 1993, issue of
_Smithsonian Magazine_ about one Johnny Hopper, a British subject
living in France at the time of the German takeover.  He became an
unintentional, but seemingly very effective, saboteur and general
pain in the German's side.

It was a thought-provoking, well-written article.

Bruce.

B. L. Werner
Big Rapids, Michigan
Where nothing is big or rapid.
BWerner@IST01.Ferris.Edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:48:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 3 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s attack troops and
supplies at Loilem; 27 fighter-bombers support ground forces in the Molo,
Hosi, and Myitson areas; 80+ fighter-bombers hit troop concentrations,
supplies, town areas, tanks, and other targets at Kyaung-hen, Mongkyet,
Hsipaw, Hsenwi, Na-sang, Konghsa, and Hkaihsi. Transports complete 531
sorties, landing men and supplies at advanced bases and dropping supplies to
forward troops.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 817: 1,437 bombers and 948 fighters are dispatched in a major
strike on Berlin by B-17s while B-24s hit the synthetic oil industry at
Magdeburg; they claim 38-1-18 Luftwaffe aircraft; 25 bombers and 8 fighters
are lost:
  1. 1,003 B-17s are sent to hit the Tempelhof marshalling yard in Berlin
(937); targets of opportunity are Bad Zwischenahn (1), Bromsche (1), Gatow
(13), Luneburg (2), Sogel (1) and other (1); 23 B-17s are lost, 6 damaged
beyond repair and 339 damaged; 18 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 189 MIA. Escort
is provided by 575 of 613 P-51s; they claim 12-1-0 aircraft in the air and
17-0-11 on the ground; 7 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 2 damaged beyond
repair.
  2. 434 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Rothensee oil plant at Magdeburg
(116); 246 hit a target of last resort, the marshalling yard at Magdeburg;
targets of opportunity are Wesermunde (17), Mockern (12), Cuxhaven (9),
Yechta Airfield (2) and other (3); 2 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair
and 58 damaged; 19 airmen are MIA. Escorting are 210 of 232 P-51s without
loss.
  3. 41 of 44 P-47s fly a sweep over Friedersdorf Airfield; they claim 9-0-6
aircraft in the air; 1 P-47 is lost (pilot MIA).
  4. 35 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  5. 24 P-51s escort 9 F-5s and 7 Spitfires on a photo reconnaissance mission
over Germany.
  Mission 818: 1 B-17 and 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and W
Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, the 9th Bombardment
Division attacks the Berg-Gladbach storage and repair depot, Dahlem
communications center, rail bridges at Ahrweiler and Sinzig, and marshalling
yard at Junkerath; fighters escort the 9th Bombardment Division, fly patrols,
and carry out armed reconnaissance over W Germany. In France, the 394th
Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves from Juvincourt to St Dizier
with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather again cancels bombing
operations. P-38s fly photo and weather reconnaissance. P-51s escort the
photo reconnaissance aircraft while other P-38s escort Mediterranean Allied
Tactical Air Force (MATAF) B-25s on a transport run to Yugoslavia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather restricts combat
operations to an attack by 4 P-47s on the Sonico marshalling yard.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 9 Saipan Island-based B-24s hit Chichi Jima
Island, Bonin Islands; 10 others hit Iwo Jima Island while 9, flying single
bomber harassment strikes, pound Iwo Jima during the night of 3/4 Feb; 15
P-38s, part of a force escorting photo aircraft, strafe the island in a
2-wave attack.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s again pound Corregidor Island and the Canacao peninsula; other B-24s
hit Aparri and Tuguegarao an in the Batangas area, A-20s continue ground
support missions. B-24s bomb Cebu City on Cebu Island, Philippine Islands,
and surrounding targets. On Mindanao Island, B-25s and P-38s hit Matina,
Daliao, and Padada Airfields.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0146Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:33:08 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Media RE: Enola Gay

I must admit that second post dealing with the Japanese response tended to make
me very angry.  But, I sat back and cooled my heels before responding...I think
I'll probably second Ben Frank's comments on both subjects.

Semper Fi!!
Chip
chipm@c.abac.peachnet.edu

expecto credite

Oderint dum metuant

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:46:22 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Congressional Medal of Honor

Hi, David!

You are right it was easier to get the CMoH during the Civil War and following
years.  A good couple of examples is: All 864 men of the 27th Maine Regiment,
received the Medal of Honor for remaining briefly on garrison duty in
Washington, D.C., after their one year enlistment expired. A second, the 29-man
honor guard that accompanied Lincoln's coffin home for burial likewise received
the medal.

In 1916 an Army review board began cleansing the rolls of Medals awarded on
dubious grounds during and after the Civil War.  The board revoked 911 awards,
including those received by the 27th Maine and the Lincoln honor guard.  That
action tightened the standards for the award of the Medal of Honor.

In 128 years of its history, 3,416 men and one woman are listed as having earned
the nation's highest decoration for valor.  Mary Walker was the only woman to
receive the Medal.  It was revked in 1916, when standards were overhauled to
requir "combat with the enemy".  She refused to give it up, died in 1919 at the
age of 86.  Nearly six decades later, the Army restored Mary Walker's medal at
the request of a descendant.

Hope this helps!
Chip

suaviter in modo, fortiter in re

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Feb 1995 to 2 Feb 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 47 messages totalling 2304 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. German Artillery Info
  2. GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP (3)
  3. Congressional Medal of Honor
  4. Peruvian Ecuadoran War (4)
  5. Invasion Casualties Japan (was Enola Gay)
  6. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 03Feb45
  7. Westerly History (2 of 5): Pasquale Grocchia (2)
  8. Invasion Casualties Japan
  9. VJ Day
 10. ?from high school student JRM
 11. book reviews (and obscure Romanian steamers)
 12. Shame Of The Smithsonian
 13. Xerox Copy (3)
 14. Enola Gay Exhibit (2)
 15. ? native Americans during WWII
 16. Conference on Italy and America 1943-44
 17. Ghost storeis (was) Re: Farewell BBs
 18. Westerly 2 of 5 part 1--Pasquale Grocchia
 19. Westerly 2 of 5 part 2 (of three parts)
 20. Westerly 2 of 5 part 3 (Pasquale)
 21. INF: 50 Years Ago 03-FEB-1945
 22. MEDIA:Danes Thank US
 23. Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)
 24. MEDIA:Brit Vet dies of WWII wounds
 25. MEDIA:Russian Medals Unawarded
 26. MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction (2)
 27. Volunteer Reserve and Wireless Operators (fwd)
 28. ADMIN: Enola Gay Exhibit
 29. WANT: Map information
 30. Malmedy Massacre
 31. GEN: Lies and history
 32. Demographic Study of Kiev
 33. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-FEB-1945
 34. [INF] USAAF 4 FEB 45
 35. [INF] 5 FEB 45
 36. [INF] USAAF 6 FEB 45
 37. CONGRESSIONAL MEDA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 04:43:00 UTC
From:    j.cantley@GENIE.GEIS.COM
Subject: Re: German Artillery Info

Jim O'Neil

Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can find the book. My encyclopedia is
very inconsistant on its method of giving information. If I can't find it
I'm sure I'll be back for more.

John Cantley

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 00:18:11 -0500
From:    John Cropp <jcropp@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:
>
> The truth about WW-II/Pacific is not japan bashing no more than the
> truth about WW-II/Europe is germany bashing. True perception even
> today must see the bombs as necessary if many of us are to have fathers
> and grandfathers. And that the japanese culture has survived...
Gentlemen,
I recall reading that Japan had an atomic bomb project.  Is this true?
Does anyone know of any books or articles about this?  It would seem to me
that if true the moral high ground would up for grabs.  Unless, of course,
it was one of those peaceful atomic weopons.;-)
                           My best to all,
                           John Cropp

John L. Cropp                      *   "Quomodo manibus mortalis
jcropp@freenet.columbus.oh.us      *    talia magna opera
11041 Fancher Rd.                  *    coquinaria?"
Westerville, OH 43082              *

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 00:50:05 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Congressional Medal of Honor

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Charles Mattocks wrote:

> Hi, David!
>
> You are right it was easier to get the CMoH during the Civil War and following
> years.  A good couple of examples is: All 864 men of the 27th Maine Regiment,
> received the Medal of Honor for remaining briefly on garrison duty in
> Washington, D.C., after their one year enlistment expired. A second, the 29-man
> honor guard that accompanied Lincoln's coffin home for burial likewise received
> the medal.

Thanks Chip for the post. If I may just add, I recall reading that for
civil war service one could request after the war to be awarded the
medal for heroic deeds, and not even be required to prove what he had
done. I.e. "I did X, I deserve the MoH...  Ok, here it is." Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 02:17:13 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

You wrote:

>
>On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:14:49 -0600 Greg Kelley said:
>>Oh, wow, and here I thought no one else read about these obscure wars.
>
>I'm still trying to figure out what the Chaco war was & why wargamers
>seem so fond of talking about it (-:
>
>ken koester
>
>

The Gran Chaco war of 1932 was between Columbia and Paraguay.  They were
fighting for control of the Gran Chaco, a 300,000 square mile jungle
that to today has not been well explored.

The Paraguayan forces flew Fiat CR20bis, Pote 25s and Wibault 73 C1s.

The Columbians flew Curtis Wright Ospreys, Hawk IIs and Falcons as well
as Vickers Scouts.

Insects, animals and disease caused more casualties on both sides than
combat did.  We should have studied this campaign to prepare our forces
for WWII island operations.  (Mandatory WWII connection ;) )

In the treaty of Beunas Ares of 1938, Paraguay got 3/4 of the Gran
Chaco, and Columbia the other 1/4.



--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 06:56:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Invasion Casualties Japan (was Enola Gay)

 >For what it's worth, I have been reading the Spaatz and Lemay papers at
 >the Library of Congress, and as late as August 1945 they were still
 >working up plans to speed production and improve performance of the B-29,
 >move 750 B-29s onto Okinawa under Jimmy Doolittle's 8th Air Force, get
 >some squadrons of RAF Lancasters onto Okinawa also,

Most of the RCAF bomber squadrons in No. 6 Group had rotated back
to the Maritime Provinces and were training with Lancaster Mk Xs
and were to be part of the RAF "Tiger Force" (I think that was the
name of the outfit) that was  to serve in the Pacific.
Fortunately, the war end before they moved to the Pacific.

 >adapt the B-29 to
 >carry 22,000 lb British Tall Boy bombs, and replace the 20th Air Force
 >air crews on a schedule going out to March 1946.
 >
 >                 - Dan    <dan.ford@unh.edu>

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 07:17:20 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 03Feb45

February 3, 1945
D-Day +242

-It was decided at a conference between Gen. Patton and four of his Corps
 commanders that the XII Corps would initiate an attack on the night of
 6-7 February aimed at Bitburg. VIII Corps would continue their drive
 toward Prum.

-III Corps, 6th Armored, 17th Airborne, and 6th Cavalry patrolled and
 maintained their positions.

-XX Corps 155mm artillery harassed enemy rear echelon. 94th Inf Div
 prepared for limited objective attacks.

-XIX TAC was limited by weather to 3 escort missions, which were uneventful.

-Captured enemy stores in Saarlautern provided general purpose items
 such as gaskets and seals, and plumbing parts unavailable otherwise.

***Source: _Patton's Third Army, A Chonology_ by Charles Province

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 08:17:56 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Westerly History (2 of 5): Pasquale Grocchia

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:59:09 -0500 Cheryl Abdullah said:
>They then had demolition training at Ft. Belboar
>[ed.?], VA, where Pasquale got some shrapnel in his
>head, the only wound he would get during the war.

Undoubtedly Fort Belvoir, about 10 miles south of Alexandria VA.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 08:34:41 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

John Cropp asks:

.Gentlemen,
.I recall reading that Japan had an atomic bomb project.  Is this true?
.Does anyone know of any books or articles about this?  It would seem to me
.that if true the moral high ground would up for grabs.  Unless, of course,
.it was one of those peaceful atomic weopons.;-)
.                           My best to all,
.                           John Cropp

It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb projects
in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could provide
more definite info?

Inquireing minds are a terrible thing...Too waist :-)

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:25:07 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

> The Peruvian government bought 'a number' of Italian aircraft (Janes is
> Vague on number) which 'gave considerable trouble and the factory was
> mainly engaged on the repair and reconstruction of these aircraft.'

The types were mainly CA-135 trainers(??) and CA-310 Libeccio bombers.

> Peruvian miltary aircraft (1945)
> Fighters: Curtiss Falcon, Curtiss Hawk, Chance-Vought Corsair,
> North American NA-50 (whatever the NA 50 was.

The North American NA-50 was a small single seat fighter. Externally looked
like a miniature Texan (if memory serves). Apparently it wasn't produced
in large quantities, and I don't know of any other country but Peru that
had used it. I don't know if it had a USAAC designation.

> The P51 was the NA73, the B25 was the NA63
> and the Texan NA number isn't mentioned in Janes)

The Texan has many NA numbers, according to the model. I can't recall them
right now, but I will try to do it later. My sources are at home. I believe
the first Texan model was NA-48(??), and later models were NA-5x, NA-6x, etc.
Will have to check....

> Bombers: Fairey Gordon, Douglas 8A-3P (another What is it!!)

I believe it was Douglas DB-8A-3P. I've seen one of them, and it looks like
a Dauntless, but with different tail. Apparently, it was a ground based
development of the early Dauntless prototypes. A later gound based model,
used by the USAAF, was the A-24.

I hope somebody could check for more details on all these "obscure" planes.
Jack, do you have some info on them?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:30:23 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

> I'm still trying to figure out what the Chaco war was & why wargamers
> seem so fond of talking about it (-:

The Chaco War was between Bolivia and Paraguay. I don't remember the
dates, but I believe it occured in late 30s (1939??). I also believe
it started due to some territorial differences between both countries.

About weapons, I believe that Bolivia used Ju-53/3m as transports, and
Curtiss P-6 Hawk as fighters.

Now, back to the Peru vs Ecuador war of 1941, I remember that Peru
received a bunch of Curtiss P-36 Hawk by that time, but I'm not sure
if they arrived just in time to participate in the conflict.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:25:38 -0500
From:    Tim McFeely <ad658@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>
Subject: Re: Invasion Casualties Japan

One of the sticking points in the acceptance of unconditional surrender by
the Japanese, was their occupation of the areas in Manchuria, mainland China,
and Korea. Between the need for expansion to help relieve some of the
pressure of a burgeoning population and the available resources these areas
could supply; there was considerable pressure within the Japanese hierarchy
to press on in the hopes of maintaining these conquests. The other big factor
concerned their pride - a powerful feeling in a badly wounded beast. Having
expanded the Japanese Empire to cover vast areas of the Pacific Ocean,
Micronesia, Southeast Asia, and mainland Asia; the Japanese people,
particularly the military, had demonstrated their power and spirit. They were
the conquerors, the almighty, etc. etc. After four years of war, this power
was in question. The Empire consisted of the remaining territory on the
Mainland and the Homeland. Conditional surrender was a way of saving 'face'.

This thread has argued about anticipated or projected causalities. 60,000 to
1,000,000. As far as I am concerned 1 was too many (bombs away), but I didn't
write this post to argue that point. My question is:

     Does any one know if the United States looked into or considered
      moving the thrust of its campaign onto the mainland?

It would seem to me that removal of the Japanese Army from the equation would
have benefited all sides. I know that we were ill-prepared for a campaign of
movement and armor over the steppes of Manchuria, with the forces we had in
the PTO. The Marines were very good at what they did; straight out frontal
amphibious assaults. They were not prepared or trained for maneuver warfare.
It would have required a massive logistics effort to move combat ready ETO
forces to the Pacific, but the ground work had already been laid down for
that in the planning for Operation CORONET. Russia also could have been a
factor, if they felt like it instead of their 'lets feed on the carcass'
attitude.

Answers? Discussion? Hate mail?

Tim McFeely
Ocean State FreeNet
ad658@osfn.rhilinet.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:29:39 -0500
From:    Tim McFeely <ad658@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>
Subject: VJ Day

John Ausland wrote:

>  I will bring this to the attention of my contacts at the
>International Herald Tribune and CNN and hope others with media
>contacts will do the same.  As the anniversary of the Japanese
>surrender approaches, it is important that the public be aware of
>these events so as to understand that, despite Hiroshima, it is not to
>be excluded that the war would not have ended when it did.
>  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

VJ Day used to be a big party in the United States. A holiday. Now with the
guidance of the politically correct 'lets make everyone happy- the hell with
the truth' crowd, it is nothing more than another day on the calendar in most
states. Rhode Island and Massachussetts are the only two states in the U.S.
that still have a holiday celebrating VJ Day.

Huge fights have erupted concerning the sensitivities of Japanese citizens,
but so far we (Rhode Islanders and Massachussettsians) have resisted the
temptation to toe the political correctness line. I am afraid though, that as
the years pass and the survivors of the bloody campaigns in the Pacific move
on to a high plane, the will to fight by us remaining mortals will lose out
to the ever increasing crowds of PC appeasers.

The celebration serves as a time of rememberance. A rememberance of those
that gave their lives in pursuit of their duties while serving their country
in the Pacific Theater of Operations. It is not intended to be a bashing of
the Japanese culture or a message of superiority. This message seems to get
lost, every year. The Op-Ed pages fill up with some group or another decrying
every PC reason thinkable for stopping this celebration. All miss the real
reasons, several hundred thousand of them. All America's finest.

Aut vincere aut mori - either to conquer or to die

Tim McFeely
Ocean State FreeNet
ad658@osfn.rhilinet.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:38:41 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: ?from high school student JRM

On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Margaret J. McCormick wrote:
I'm an amateur at these things, especially compared to many of the
historians here, so I hope you get a lot of replys from them as well.  I
will tell you what I know from reading.

>   If the first bomb was so destructive and awful, why did Japan not
> surrender and avoid being bombed again?
>
There is a lot of controversy about this, and the real reasons will never
be quite clear.  One account I read, after Hiroshima the american
government sent a message to Japan demanding surrender or else more bombs
would follow.  The Japanese government replied with a message that had to
be trnaslated from Japanese to english.  The key word was an ambiguous
word that could either be taken in context to mean "We will" or "We are
thinking about it."  Asian languages often have ambguities that are hard
for westerners to interpret.  For instance, in Korean the word "I" is
rarely used.  If you say you're going to the store, you don't say "I'M
going to the store."  Just "Store- now, going."   A Korean will know
intuitively who is going to the store, but a westerner might not.  So the
american government took the japanese message to mean they were
undecided, and maybe therefore needed another push.

>   Also, how was radar used during WWII?
Radar was a British invention, and was critical in the early years of
the war to england's defense against Germany.  The German Luftwaffe (Air
Force) underestimated the potential of radar and lost many planes to
British fighters who were able to intercept them efficiently.  Early
radar was crude and short ranged.  The Germans were pioneering radar
systems of their own but were behind the British.  Radar was used
exclusively for air defense at first, and then later became useful for
accurate guiding of anti-aircraft guns and rockets.  By the end of the
war the Germans had perfected radar guided anti-aircraft cannons that
played hell on allied bombers, especially at night.
    It is interesting that radar was in place on Hawaii the day that
Pearl Harbor was bombed by the Japanese.  In fact the radar systems saw
the huge groups of airplanes coming towards the island and frantic radar
operators called the air force bases and warned them, even when the
Japanese planes were still miles away from the island.  However, the
operators were only on the mountain top sunday morning because they were
new guys just practicing with the new invention, and no one took them
seriously.  The officers figured they had picked up a big flock of
birds, or a group of large AMERICAN bombers on the screen and were
overreacting.  Also american military officers were suspicious of radar,
because it was a british invention and not an american one.
>
> I would appreciate any information or opinions on why?  Thank you.
> JRM
Okay?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:00:36 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: book reviews (and obscure Romanian steamers)

Mike, post the piece about the Italian Army.  I am still learning where
Italy is concerned and have found a lot of my biases challenged and more
importantly, changed of late.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 08:58:05 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shame Of The Smithsonian

I think that this entire debate is quite interesting, but there is one
small element that bothers me. When talking of the struggle, it is always
historians vs. the VFW and American Legion. What I want people to realize
is that not every historian buys into this revisionist vien of history,
and many of us younger (I am 30) to-be historian reject revisioninsm part
and parcel, as we reject political correctness. I study American history
because I enjoy it, because it is my heritage (I am an American, nothing
more, nothing less, no hyphens) and because I am proud of my country. I
am sorry if this wanders off from the main theme of the list, but I think
that it is important to state that not all historians are
revisionists-thanks for hearing me out-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:14:34 -0500
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Xerox Copy

I have a copy,50 pages, of "Air-To_Air Combat in World War II: A Quantitative
History" by Joseph H. Reinburg November 1966. Its a Research Paper P-345.
"This paper is a brief impressionistic survey of tactical air warfare (par-
ticularly air-to-air combat) from its primitive beginnings in the First
World War through the one-sided air operations over Korea."
There are tables showing aircraft losses by type and they appear to be for
WW-2.
Anybody have an interest?

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 07:30:57 -0800
From:    Jaimie Crafton <JaimieC@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

It's interesting, the various comments and opinions on this matter.
I've been "lurking" in the background, enjoying the postings from the
group, but I feel I now have something to contribute on this subject.

My sister-in-law has been residing and working in Tokyo for about 2
years now and was in the "states" for the holidays.  She works in an
office almost exclusively Japanese and the A-bomb stamp and Enola Gay
exhibit have been quite the hot topics.  To make a long story short, at
least her japanese associates are of the opinion that they started it,
and we ended it the best way we knew how.  She has not heard any
animosity directed towards her or the U.S. regarding this.  Some of her
japanese friends even find all the controversy a bit odd.

She paid a visit to the city of Hiroshima to see the memorials and
museums concerning the bombing(s).  While she did encounter some mixed
feelings from a few of the "locals" in Hiroshima, the majority still
viewed it as a consequence of a war THEY STARTED! She did say it was
kind of eerie seeing that one particular building, that is in all the
photos, in person.

Anyway, just thought I'de report some "first hand" information.

Regards,

Jaimie Crafton

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:09:33 -0600
From:    "Margaret J. McCormick" <mmccormi@SERVICES.DESE.STATE.MO.US>
Subject: ? native Americans during WWII

Could anyone recommend resources, or send a quick minimal account of the
service of Native Americans in the military services during WWII?

Thank you so much.
Tiffany Anderson - high school senior student
margaret                                mmccormi@services.dese.state.mo.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 11:21:31 EST
From:    "John Davis, History Department, UConn" <NOEADM01@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Conference on Italy and America 1943-44

                      ITALY AND AMERICA 1943-44:
         ITALIAN, AMERICAN AND ITALIAN-AMERICAN EXPERIENCES OF
                THE LIBERATION OF THE MEZZOGIORNO
                      April 21-23, 1995
                 Marriott Hotel - Farmington, CT

A three day international research conference to evaluate in
multi-disciplinary perspectives the political, social and
cultural significance of the Liberation of Southern Italy, 1943.
The program will explore the ways in which Southern Italy established
wider precedents for allied military and political objectives,
and will focus on the significance of the Liberation as a moment of
intense cultural creativity and exchange that shaped subsequent relations
between Italians and Americans and marked a decisive turning point in the
history of Italian Americans.


FRIDAY, 4/21/95

12:00 Registration
1:00 Opening Session
1:30-3:00 p.m. Keynote Speakers
Chair - Charles Delzell, Vanderbilt University
* Nicola Gallerano, University of Siena, Italy
  "The Liberation of the Mezzogiorno: A Research Agenda"
* Carlo D'Este, US Military Historian
  "The Italian Campaign: A Fifty Year Perspective"
* John Gatt-Rutter, La Trobe University, Australia
  "Naples 1944: Liberation and Literature"

3:15-4:45 p.m. Politics of the Liberation
Chair and Discussant - Zyg Baranski, University of Reading, UK
*Paolo De Marco, University of Naples, Italy
  "The Allied Military Government and the Trade Union
   Movement in Naples, 1943-45"
* Salvatore Lupo, University of Catania, Italy
  "The Allies and the Mafia"
* Filippo Mazzonis, University of Teramo, Italy
  "Religion and Politics of the Liberation in Southern Italy"

5:00-6:30 p.m. Italian American Experiences:A Round Table
Chair - Paolo Frascani, Istituto Universitario Orientale
* Gary Mormino, University of South Florida
  "The Liberation of Southern Italy: Italian American Perceptions"
* Richard Jones, University of Connecticut
  "The Italian American Experience of World War II in Connecticut"
7:00 Reception & Dinner
9:00 Evening Program - Film Session

SATURDAY, 4/22/95

8:15-10:15 The War in the Mezzogiorno
Chair and Discussant - Alexander De Grand, North Carolina State
  University
* Nino Recupero, University of Trieste, Italy
  "The War in Sicily"
* Paul Ginsborg, University of Florence, Italy
  "The Gullo Decree and Agrarian Reform in the Mezzogiorno"
* Leandra D'Antone, University of Rome, Italy
  "American Economic Planning in Southern Italy, 1943-44"
* Maria Teresa Di Paolo, University of Messina, Italy
  "The Allies and the Trade Unions in Sicily"

10:45-12:45 Human Experiences of War in the Mezzogiorno
Chair and Discussant, Margherita Repetto Alaia,
 Italian Cultural Institute, DC
* Ivan Tognarini, University of Siena, Italy
  "The Civilian Experience of War: Italy 1943-1945"
* Suzanne Branciforte, College of the Holy Cross
  "Memories of War in the Mezzogiorno 1943-44"
* Gabriella Gribaudi, University of Naples, Italy
  "Naples '44: Anthropological Perspectives"

12:45-2:00 Lunch

2:00-4:00 The Literature of the Liberation
Chair - Frank Rosengarten, CUNY
* Dante Della Terza, Harvard University
  "Echoes of the Resistance in the Multicultural Journals
   Mercurio and Aretusa"
* David Ward, Wellesley College
  "From North to South: Creativity and Resistance in
   Carlo Levi's L'Orologio"
* Nelson Moe, University of Michigan
  "Naples '44: A Cultural Crossroads"
Disscussant - Joseph Buttigieg, Notre Dame

4:30-6:00 Italy and America
Chair and Discussant, Alice Kelikian, Brandeis University
* Steven F. White, Mount Saint Mary's College
  "Liberal Antipodes: Contrasting Italian and American Liberal
   Philosophies of the Liberation"
* Michela Nacci, University of L'Aquila, Italy
  "The Liberation and Images of America in the Mezzogiorno"
* Ruth Ben-Ghiat, University of North Carolina
"Liberation: The Flight from the Past in Italian Cinema, 1943-47"

7:00 Dinner
9:00 Evening Program - Film Session


SUNDAY, 4/23/95

8:30 Bus to Trinity College, Cinestudio

9:00-10:15 The Liberation and the Italian Cinema
Chair and Discussant, Patrick Rumble, University of Wisconsin
* Valerio Caprara, Oriental University Institute, Italy
  "Naples, the Allies and the Cinema"
* Christopher Wagstaff, University of Reading,UK
  "The Representation of the Resistance and the Liberation in
   Post-War Italian Cinema"

10:30-11:45 The Liberation and the Italian Cinema
Chair and Discussant,  Manuela Gieri, University of Toronto
* Millicent Marcus, University of Texas
  "Liberating the Garden: Eden and the Fall from Paisa to Maccheroni"
* Jennifer Stone, University of Massachusetts
  "Europa '43-44: A Psychoanalytic Reading of Rossellini"

12:00-12:45 Finale -  Borden Painter

1:00-2:30 Lunch
2:00 JMIS Editorial Board Meeting
2:45 Transport to Train Station


Sponsored by the University of Connecticut Research Foundation,
College of Liberal Arts & Sciences, College of Fine Arts and the
Emiliana Pasca Noether Chair in Modern Italian History; the
National Endowment for the Humanities, the Barbieri Foundation
at Trinity College; the Istituto Universitario Orientale in Naples;
the Istituto per la Storia della Resistenza in Naples; the Istituto
Italiano per gli studi Filosofici in Naples; and the Aldo De Dominicis
Foundation.

For further information contact:

                  Emiliana Pasca Noether Chair
                    University of Connecticut
                       241 Glenbrook Road
                      Storrs, CT 06269-2103
                         (203) 486-2752
                   noeadm01@uconnvm.uconn.edu
NEH stipends are available for graduate students or junior faculty
wishing to attend.  Inquire at above address for details.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      A NEW JOURNAL FOR 1995

                JOURNAL OF MODERN ITALIAN STUDIES
                              EDITED BY
             JOHN A. DAVIS, UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
                               AND
               DAVID I. KERTZER, BROWN UNIVERSITY

     ROUTLEDGE, CHAPMAN, HALL PUBLISHERS IS  PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE
FOUNDING OF A  NEW SCHOLARLY JOURNAL, THE JOURNAL OF MODERN ITALIAN
STUDIES, DEVOTED TO ITALIAN HISTORY, POLITICS, ECONOMICS, CULTURE
AND SOCIETY.

     THE JOURNAL OF MODERN ITALIAN STUDIES IS DESIGNED TO STIMULATE THE
STUDY OF MODERN  ITALIAN SOCIETY AND TO MAKE THE BEST SCHOLARSHIP
ON ITALY AVAILABLE TO AN INERNATIONAL READERSHIP OF SPECIALISTS
AND INTERESTED NON-SPECIALISTS WORKING IN A VARIETY OF DISCIPLINES.

     THE JMIS WILL EXAMINE MODERN ITALIAN SOCIETY, CULTURE AND POLITICS,
RANGING FROM THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY TO TODAY.  THE WORK OF HISTORIANS,
POLITICAL SCIENTISTS, ANTHROPOLOGISTS, SOCIOLOGISTS AND ECONOMISTS
WILL BE FEATURED, ALONG WITH SPECIALISTS IN OTHER AREAS, SUCH AS
CULTURAL STUDIES, WHOSE WORK SHEDS LIGHT ON ITALIAN SOCIETY.



                             CONTENTS
                        PLANNED FOR VOLUME 1

The evolution of the history of women and sexuality in Italy,
     MICHELE DI GIORGIO
The English myth of the Risorgimento, Paul Ginsborg
Rethinking patronage in the light of Tangentopoli, David Moss
Urban Patricians & Bourgeois Society, Raffaele Romanelli
Antisemitism in Italy before the 1938 Racial Laws, Joel Blatt
Italian cinema, Peter Bondanella
Doing Italian History: Pleasure and Politics, H. Stuart Hughes
Regulating marriage in the nineteenth century papal states,
    MARGHERITA PELAJA
THE BANK OF ITALY AND ITALIAN ECONOMY, GIANNI TONIOLO
The Jews of nineteenth century Italy, Paolo Bernardini
The history of Italy, German style, Costanza D'Elia
Italian Alpine society - anthropological and historical perspectives,
    PIER PAOLO VIAZZO
Tangentopoli or the Democratization of Corruption, Donald Sassoon
THE  EW ITALIAN ELECTORAL SYSTEM, DIEGO GAMBETTA AND GEOFFREY WARNER
A Common Law of Nations, Giuseppe Mazzini's democratic nationality,
    NADIA URBINATI

PUBLICATION DETAILS

ISSN: 1354-571X, 3 issues per volume

Volume 1 is published in 1995/96 (15 month cycle)
The first issue will appear in Autumn, 1995

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FOR SUBSCRIPTION OR FREE SAMPLE COPY PLEASE CONTACT: TREVINA JOHNSON,
ROUTLEDGE SUBSCRIPTIONS, CHERITON HOUSE, ITPS LTD., NORTH WAY, ANDOVER,
SP10 5BE., UK; OR EMAIL NOEADM01@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 11:41:29 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: Westerly History (2 of 5): Pasquale Grocchia

> Undoubtedly Fort Belvoir, about 10 miles south of Alexandria VA.
> ken koester

Thanks, Ken--so noted.  List members, I promise to get this right by the
time I send out 5 of 5.  Apparently I overbooked a comm. program buffer or
something so the end of Pasquale's story got cut.  Rather than submit
excerpts, I will resubmit to this list the entire thing again in two parts.

Thank you for your patience.

Cheryl                                    cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:50:29 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Ghost storeis (was) Re: Farewell BBs

There is a book for kids by Daniel Cohen called _The Ghosts of War_
published in hc. by, I believe, Putnam.  This author writes high-interest
easy-reading materials hoping to reach kids who normally don't want to
read anything.  I think he had the admiral wife's tea party story in it.
Grade ranges for that book are about 3-6, but Cohen writes so well that
just about anyone would enjoy reading his stuff (in case anyone is looking
for gifts for kids).

Cheryl                                    cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:04:26 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Westerly 2 of 5 part 1--Pasquale Grocchia

Part one, with an aside to John Davis: It takes me a
day and a half to be able to see my own long post.
Not so for short ones.  I going to use David R.'s
suggestion to cc myself.

cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

-----------------

Narrator:  PASQUALE P. GROCCIA, World War II

Brief Biographical Background:
DOB:  April 14, 1922
POB:  Westerly, RI (Oak Street)
Post-military experience:  Cook (retired 1983)

Branch of Service:  Volunteer OSS and Ranger, Allied
Forces Unit
Special Awards (American):   Arrowhead patch; Bronze
Star; Good Conduct Medal; European and African ribbon;
Middle Eastern Service Medal
Special Awards (Italian):  Italian War Cross; Cross of
Merit

1

HIGHLIGHTS/ANECDOTES OF THE MILITARY EXPERIENCE:
Pasquale did not graduate from high school because
1938 was financially tough.  From age 16-18, he worked
for Greyhound Post houses.  He then worked on the NY-
New Haven-Hartford railroad at 45 cents an hour to
help support his parents.  When war broke out, he
badly wanted to go and "just made it" past the 5-foot
minimum height requirement.  He left Westerly for Ft.
Devens, MA, then Camp Breckenridge, KY, after being
given a "kitchen breakfast" send-off with other
Westerly boys by the local Elks club.  Basic training
at Camp Breckenridge included 5- to 25-mile hikes with
part of a mortar on his shoulder.  Pasquale was in
good condition, however, and he had moral support from
Westerly friends in the same camp--Paplas Posato,
George Sivetto (Pasquale's cousin), and Frankie
[Westerly qry.--a.k.a. "Slim"?] Algiere.  One time his
parents visited Kentucky bringing soup and Italian
food that Pasquale shared with the other Westerly
boys.  His parents, like many Westerly Italians, came
from Calabria in southern Italy.

2

     He initially trained to calibrate and shoot 81mm
mortars [see temp. endnote Groccia-1] , which required
some knowledge of mathematics.  Pasquale eventually
volunteered for jump training because there was an
opportunity for soldiers who could speak Italian to go
to Italy, which he wanted to do.  The men who
interviewed him for this special training were with an
OG (Operational Group).  They later became known as
the OSS  (Office of Strategic Services) under General
Donovan [see endnote Groccia-2], "the most decorated
soldier of WWI."

3

     Pasquale's OSS group had 120 men.  The OSS itself
was quite big--there were battalions, French and
Yugoslavian OGs, and OSS as far away as the South
Pacific.  During the war the OSS did not get much
publicity, but afterwards Hollywood made a movie
called _Philippine through Madelayne_, a cloak-and-
dagger story starring Alan Ladd.  Pasquale's first
stop as an OSS recruit was to the congressional
Country Club in Washington, DC.  "We started to take
training...and we had our first casualty there....[We]

4

had these stilettos that [just the weight of] could
penetrate your hand."  A man named Pope, upon turning
around, was accidentally pierced by such a stiletto.
Confidential training took place on presidential-
retreat grounds (perhaps Camp David) in Maryland.
They then had demolition training at Ft. Belvoir,
VA, where Pasquale got some shrapnel in his
head, the only wound he would get during the war.
After arriving overseas in 1943 on a large convoy,
Pasquale's OSS unit was not attached to any particular
division or army--"Anybody who wanted us, we had to
go....We did work for the British,...the 4th
Corp,...the French...."  His unit was prepared to do
work at a moment's notice.

5

     His first stop overseas was Oran, Algiers.  From
there he went via destroyer to Jacksville [ed: ?] on
the African side of Corsica for his first mission.  He
and 29 other OSS men met with French Moroccans who
wore the hoods and capes of the French-African foreign
legion.  Together they worked to get the Germans out
of northern Corsica.  The Germans had 8,000
(number to be queried: see endnote) battalions
in Corsica.  Many of the Italians gave themselves up
and joined the Allies.  Pasquale's group made their
way through Corsica toward Bastia, the biggest German
port [ed: on Corsica? in the Mediterranean?].  There
were usually several casualties whenever the men went
behind German lines to blow up tanks, bridges,
ammunition dumps, etc. because the Germans were well
entrenched among mountains.  The Germans, who never
intended to stay in Corsica, finally left one night.
Pasquale could see their warships, submarines, and E-
boats in the port.  "One morning and nobody was there.
They were all gone."  Pasquale noted that the E-boats
were made of steel while American PT boats were made
of plywood.  His unit took enough supplies for a 30-
day stay on Corsica, but actually stayed for 45 days
as it was difficult to oust the Germans.

6

     By the time other military groups landed on
Corsica, Pasquale left on a PT boat with five other
OSS men to the hilly island of Caprior [prob. Capraia]
to do observation work.  If they saw a German ship,
they radioed Bastia so an American ship could go forth
to encounter the Germans.  There were a few French
natives on Capraia who once "covered for" the OSS when
a German E-boat came to the island.  "We radio for
[Bastia] because an E-boat was in the port and they
came and caught them in the port and torpedoed them
and that took care of that boat."  After two weeks
enduring C-rations, which Pasquale compared to
"stones," he left Capraia for Corsica and then for
Siena, Italy along with 129 other OSS men via a Navy
landing craft.

7

     At this time, the summer of 1944, the front lines
were in Bologna and the Allies were stopped.  The 4th
Corp, 5th Army called for help from the OSS because
they wanted to know what the Germans had in a small
town just below Bologna.  On or around November 26,
1944, Pasquale went with seven others to "no-man's
land."  He was lagging behind when the others in the
group, including a Lieutenant Schneider, got trapped
by a German patrol. "I went around and I fired at
them, which I killed seven, and there was just two
left that we took prisoners."  There was no radio
communication.  The only way his group could tell the
4th Corp what they learned was to walk back with only
their water and ammunition.  Later,  in Mayo, Italy,
Pasquale received the Bronze Star for his action.  He
attributes the fortune of his having lagged behind to
God.  "It has got to be God....I saved all of them."

8

     Soon afterwards  he and two partisans undertook a
mission to blow up a bridge with demolition G-2 [prob.
C-2], a plastic explosive.  "In Italy, all your
bridges have one stone and it is the last stone put in
there, in the middle of the bridge and you pull it
out, it is not cemented in.  We put our demolition in
and the time fuse in there and the cap and we left."
Pasquale credits the anti-Mussolini Italian partisans
for doing tremendous work.  "They would ambush German
soldiers, they would blow up ammo dumps, anything that
they could do to hurt the Germans, they would do."

(more forthcoming in a second message)

Note re: "8,000 battalions"--probably too many, I'll query Pasquale
about his source (he was reading facts from a pamphlet during
the interview--this number included Italians who I think were
forced to fight, perhaps he meant throughout all of Italy).

Cheryl                                    cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:23:24 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Westerly 2 of 5 part 2 (of three parts)

Part two.

Thanks again for your patience and your comments.

Cheryl Abdullah
cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us
------------
9

     His last mission was on March 25, 1945, jumping
into Lavinia, a small northern town three kilometers
from Switzerland.  "Myself and this Carmel Cooley, we
used to call him Julia.  He came from MA.  He is dead
now and may his soul rest in peace now.  We jumped
there and we met the other parts of our groups and we
organized partisans....We stopped all communication of
any Germans coming from New Brenna [prob. Brenner] or
Silvia [prob. Servia] Pass...."  While in Italy,
Pasquale saw Mussolini's body hanging by the feet
after the execution in Milan.  His ability to speak
Italian was a constant help.  "It would have been hard
for us to get by because we relied on the Italians.
They were a big help to us in feeding us too.  I hate
to say this but the Italian women would get the
equipment drops, and the planes would go over and drop
the stuff and half of it would go to them and the
other half [because of the wind] would go to the
Germans."

10

     The Germans often had advantageous positions in
the mountains of Italy, the main reason behind the
Allied effort to cut communications.  "We cut the
Germans off completely that they couldn't get help
from the north to come down to the southern part of
Italy [via the Servia or Brenner Pass] where Bologna
is....that was our mission."  There were frequent
drops of small groups of OSS, and each group had a
radio operator who relayed information using code.
"We never expected to ever come back alive....I never
carried a dog tag with me."  (The OSS were excused
from wearing dog tags to prevent identification.
Also, a man like Pasquale could more easily change
clothes and quickly blend in with the locals.)  From
March until the end of the war in May, 1945,
Pasquale's group organized for a drive that never
happened because the Germans surrendered.

11

     Pasquale remembered the 15-man Gimny [ed.?]
mission, an attempt to blow up guns that were blowing
up American ships along the coast line near La Spezia:
"These guns, big cannons, would come out of the
mountains on rails and blow up our ships...in the
Mediterranean,...evidently information leaked out and
the Germans were waiting....Fifteen men [were
captured], and then we heard axis Sally on radio but
she says that 13 enlisted men and two officers were
annihilated after a short struggle.  That's what she
said,...but the order came...from Hitler himself to
execute them."  The officer involved in the execution
of the men was General Dostler.  The bodies of these
men, shot in the head, were later found because two
captured Germans and many Italian people testified
against Dostler.

12

     After the war ended, Pasquale left northern Italy
for headquarters in Siena, where he stayed for a month
before going on to Naples.  "From Naples, I was on the
back of a truck and these sailors were walking and
this guy yelled out, 'Pat, I'll see you on the boat'
and it was Armando Capalbo ["Cappy" from Howe Street
in Westerly]....We were only eating one meal a day
coming back [on the boat] and then after the fourth or
fifth day, he found me....I came home on [Cappy's]
boat....That was very good because going to Europe and
Africa I met Louie Cimalore in Algiers.  They used to
have the bakery shop on Railroad Avenue....I met him
[going over] and at the end I met Capalbo."

13

     While most of Westerly's boys went to Europe, the
90th Infantry Division (the one Pasquale originally
trained on mortars for) ended up in the South Pacific.
After returning from Italy, Pasquale volunteered to
fight in the South Pacific.  He waited in Washington
state to go there, but the war ended and he was
discharged in October, 1945.
     After the war, Pasquale applied for a job at
Quonset Point.  "They told me that they were looking
for riggers to pack suits.  If someone is not sure
that chute is right, you have to take it up and jump
out of it.  I said, 'No thanks, I've jumped enough in
my life.'"  He returned to Italy in 1947 to marry a
girl he met and got engaged to while in Siena.  He
married her on 10/25/47 and brought her back to
Westerly on 12/23/47.  Five years later he "called
for" her mother and father as she was an only child.
He worked as a cook at Joe's Diner in Groton and,
later, the Colonial Restaurant, formerly known as the
State Line Lunch, next to the Pawcatuck Bridge (near
Besso's Newsstand).  He retired as a cook from the
J.C. Penney restaurant at the mall in 1983.
     His American unit has an annual reunion.  At the
time of this interview, he was eagerly anticipating
going to Italy in October, 1994, for 50th-reunion
ceremonies in Italy.  The OSS and OGs were scheduled
to have a meeting with representatives of the Italian
government.  "I'm going.  I can't wait," said
Pasquale.


Audio tape interview:   31 January 1994
Interviewer:          Julia B. Kerr
Written History Editor: Cheryl Abdullah
cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

(part 3 continues on a subsequent message)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:26:53 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Westerly 2 of 5 part 3 (Pasquale)

Part 3.  This is God's punishment for thinking I could
get away with exceeding the 1.5-page limit I was
ordered to use.

cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us
-------------------------

14

ENDNOTES

Groccia-1:
The following is Pasquale's recollection of working
with a mortar: "A mortar shell is like a little small
missile.  You have a base plate, you have a tripod
[ed. qry.: bipod], and you have a barrel which, you
would elevate it at the distance that you wanted that
shell to go....[You] had the first gunner, the second
gunner, and the third....There were three men to a
mortar."  He then described the 81mm mortar's firing
mechanism as follows: "Well, it was like an explosive
on the bottom.  You shoot a gun and it has a trigger
and the trigger detonates, your shell has the same
thing, it hits and then it goes off into the air.  It
propels itself....[An 81mm shell] is pretty big.  You
had the 88mm [sic--query] mortars and you had the 60mm
mortars."
        The following description of an 81mm mortar is
by Jon Perkins of Ottawa, Canada (WWII-L):  "A mortar
is quite simple in concept: It incorporates a
smoothbore metal tube (i.e., not rifled like a gun)
closed at one end to form a barrel.  This barrel is
mounted on a square or circular base plate, which
rests on the ground.  The barrel of the mortar is
elevated by means of a bipod mount attached midway up
the barrel (two legs, splayed in a reverse "V").  The
bipod allowed the mortar gunner to adjust the range by
lowering the muzzle of the barrel up and down, and to
move the barrel left-right to some degree.  The whole
system is relatively simple and crude.  Attached to
the barrel or bipod is usually a small telescopic
sight, which allowed the gunner to sight on nearby
ranging sticks to be sure of the range and direction
in which he was firing.

15

     "The mortar projectile is a tear-drop shaped bomb
with fins on the narrower end to give it some
stability in flight.  The tail of the mortar bomb also
contains a propellant cartridge, sometimes with
boosting charges added to the bomb's tail fins if
extra range was needed.  The mortar was fired by
simply dropping the bomb tail-first into the tube.
The mortar bomb slid down the tube until the cartridge
in its tail struck a fixed firing pin in the bottom of
the tube.  This set off the propellant charge(s),
generating gas that blew the bomb out the tube and
toward its target.  For small mortars in which the
bomb wasn't heavy enough to set off the propellant
cartridge by simply sliding down the tube, a trigger
of sorts was used to trip a striker mechanism at the
bottom of the tube.  This had the same effect as the
trigger, sear, and firing pin/striker on any firearm--
as alluded to by Pasquale--in that it detonated the
propellant charge and sent the bomb/projectile on its
way.  The 81mm mortar Pasquale refers to used the
fixed firing pin method exclusively, however.

16

     "A mortar crew was usually composed of 3 to 4
men.  One was the gunner (the number 1), another the
loader (the number 2), and additional assistants were
similarly numbered.  The gunner adjusted the mortar
for elevation and direction, verified this through the
sights, and then gave the order for the loader to drop
the bomb down the tube.  If you see pictures of a
mortar in action, the loader pauses with the bomb at
the muzzle of the mortar, then drops it and quickly
turns away to plug his ears and avoid the gases that
were ejected from the barrel on firing.  There was a
perceptible lag between dropping the bomb down the
barrel and the weapon firing, allowing people to get
out of the way.  After firing, the mortar bomb flew a
simple parabolic trajectory to its target, which could
be as close as a few hundred yards or as far away as
3200 yards depending upon the mortar's elevation and
the propellant charge used.  Mortars weren't designed
to be very accurate--they were intended simply to drop
their bombs into a general area.

(Query for Pasquale: Were there 3 or 7 men on the type
of mortar crew he trained on?  As the war went on,
number on mortar crew apparently dropped.)

17

Groccia-2:
[Ed Qry: General Donovan or Colonel Donovan?  Did he
get promoted to Gen. during WWII?]
The following description of Donovan and the OSS is
from page 215 of _The World at Arms: The Reader's
Digest Illustrated History of World War II_ (London,
1989).  "The United States had virtually no non-
military intelligence service apart from Hoover's
special group--though the FBI zealously guarded US
internal security.  Roosevelt filled the gap in 1942
when he appointed Colonel William ('Wild Bill') J.
Donovan to set up the Office of Strategic Services
(OSS).  Donovan, a World War I hero and millionaire
lawyer, had many international contacts.  He had
supplied Britain's SIS [Secret Intelligence Service]
with astute assessments and forecasts of Italy's role
in Ethiopia in the 1930s, and among his contacts was
William Stephenson, Britain's intelligence chief in
America.  Stephenson provided Donovan with the
professional know-how to set up OSS, which became an
information-gathering and sabotage organisation.  The
new agency was welcomed and aided by SIS, Menzies
[Stewart Menzies, Scottish wartime head of the SIS]
hoping to gain some influence over its operations in
Europe.  But OSS soon outgrew any foreign help.  Its
teams swarmed over Europe and North Africa.  By the
end of the war Allen Dulles, its chief in Switzerland,
was running a powerful network which had relations
with anti-Hitler Germans and with serving officers
hoping to make the best possible deal when the
inevitable defeat arrived.  OSS was closed after the
war, but resurrected during the 'cold war' as the
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)."

Cheryl                                    cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:45:52 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago 03-FEB-1945

Western Front - In the U.S. Ist Army sector, elements of the 78th Division
swim the flooded Roer River  ?????????  SWIM ??????

In Feb??? Whoa that must've been quite a wakeup. And I have a tough time
dipping the ice out of the dog's dish BRRRRRRRR.

Were they issued any special equipment for this assault?
Mike

Michael Long
Programmer Analyst II
University of Connecticut
196 Auditorium Road, U-138    |   Bitnet: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
Storrs, Connecticut, USA      | Internet: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    Phone: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 13:29:30 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Danes Thank US

>From the DoD Newswire 2 February 1995

:DANISH VETS THANK U.S. PILOTS

   COPENHAGEN, Denmark  -- Danish World War II veterans are
planning to raise a stone at Arlington National Cemetery in
Washington to thank U.S. pilots for helping liberate Denmark 50
years ago.
   Denmark's Prince Joachim, the second son of Queen Margrethe, will
unveil the monument during a ceremony May 11, Helsingor Dagblad, a
daily newspaper, reported Wednesday.
   Denmark's defense minister, Hans Haekkerup, will also
participate.
   The stone, which contains a plaque thanking the pilots, is made
from granite taken from the shores of Snekkersten, 22 miles north of
Copenhagen. It was from Snekkersten that many U.S. pilots downed by
the Nazis were smuggled to safety in neutral Sweden.
   Arlington is the cemetery just outside Washington, D.C., where
the bodies of U.S. soldiers and leaders, including late President
John F. Kennedy, are buried.
   Denmark's memorial will stand some 100 yards from the memorial to
the Unknown Soldiers, the paper said.
   Allied troops entered Denmark on May 5, 1945, the day after the
announcement that German troops had surrendered.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 13:29:47 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:

> It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb projects
> in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could provide
> more definite info?

I don't know about the German project, but the evidence (post-war) showed
that the Japanese were pursuing the wrong path (i.e. making a bomb that
would never work). Perhaps someone else could fill us in on the details.
I don't remember if it was on Milhst-l or here, but this was discussed
about 1/2 yr ago. BTW, Japan does have a nuclear program now which has
produced warheads _and_ missiles which are arguably superior to the
American and Soviet (Russian) ones. Everyone knows that the real
difficulty of developing a nuclear threat is developing a delivery system
(I mean, threat to North America). Japan has developed satellite
launching missiles which could _easily_ be converted to launch nuclear
weapons. I'm not suggesting that the Japanese have any designs on bombing
N America (or anywhere else), just thought y'all would be interested in
this little-reported story. Sorry Joe, enough non-wwii babble. If anyone
wants a copy of a short piece I wrote on this, e-mail me @ drising@acs.bu.edu
Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 13:52:52 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Brit Vet dies of WWII wounds

>From the DoD Newswire 3 February 1995

RIP


:BRITON DIES FROM WAR INJURIES 50 YEARS LATER

    LONDON, Feb 2  - A British veteran of World War Two died
last Christmas from injuries he suffered 50 years ago, a coroner's
court ruled on Thursday.
     Captain Leslie Farmiloe, 79, of Petersfield, southern England,
was wounded by fragments from ammunition boxes when a German shell
exploded near him during the siege of Tobruk in North Africa in 1942.
     He survived the attack but shrapnel in his body from the boxes
contained asbestos which killed him a half century later.
     Coroner James Kenroy recorded a verdict of "death by enemy action
while on active service."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 13:55:40 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Russian Medals Unawarded

>From the DoD Newswire 3 February 1995

:RUSSIA HOLDING WWII MEDALS

   MOSCOW  -- More than 1 million medals from World War II
remain locked up at the Defense Ministry, waiting for the Soviet
soldiers who earned them in battles that ended 50 years ago, a
newspaper reported Thursday.
   The search for the soldiers or their survivors has been difficult
because more than 20 million Soviet citizens died or disappeared in
the war.
   In addition, after the war Soviet army units were reshuffled,
soldiers were discharged and many relocated to areas far from their
original homes. Most veterans of the war are at least 70 years old.
   "The cards with the names of the people who have not received
them are stored in the Defense Ministry archives, the medals in
their boxes are still in the Personnel Directorate safes," the
Izvestia newspaper reported.
   Lack of money and the sheer size of the task has slowed the
search, the report said. Just to send letters looking for 100,000
people, one organization needed 250 million rubles, about $62,500 at
current exchange rates.
   "When I came to work in the Awards Department in 1988, we had
more than 3 million awards here," Col. Gen. Valentin Yakovlev told
the newspaper. "We have done a lot to find their addressees, but I
do not know how to find the remaining ones."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 13:57:15 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

>From the DoD Newswire 3 February 1995


:NAZI PAPERS WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION AFTER OUTCRY

    LONDON, Feb 2  - Nazi papers from the extermination camp
Bergen-Belsen, one of which bears the signature of Adolf Hitler, were
withdrawn from an auction on Thursday after public protests that the
timing was tasteless.
     The auction, which was to take place next week, was announced
just after last Friday's 50th anniversary of the liberation of the
Nazi death camp Auschwitz. About six million Jews were murdered in
Nazi concentration camps in World War Two.
     "I contacted the vendor and we agreed that the items would be
removed from the sale," said Trevor Vennett-Smith, the owner of
Vennett-Smith auction house in Gotham, central England.
     Vennett-Smith said the auction of the documents, which also
included signatures of Nazi propaganda minister Josef Goebbels and the
"Butcher of Belsen," camp commander Josef Kramer, would be
inappropriate.
     "We are not in the business of upsetting anybody," he said.
     Among those disturbed by the auction plans was the chairman of
nearby Nottingham's Progressive Synagogue, Barry Peters.
     "With the anniversary just over, it was distinctly insensitive if
not cynical to offer the documents at an open auction," he said.
     Councillor Brandon Bravo said he wanted the lots withdrawn for
fear the sale would attract neo-Nazi supporters.
     "People should not be seen to make money out of what was the
biggest nightmare and tragedy in world history," he said.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 19:03:04 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Xerox Copy

Yeah, I would be interested, in which format would you send it out,
e-mail or on paper?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have a copy,50 pages, of "Air-To_Air Combat in World War II: A Quantitative
> History" by Joseph H. Reinburg November 1966. Its a Research Paper P-345.
> "This paper is a brief impressionistic survey of tactical air warfare (par-
> ticularly air-to-air combat) from its primitive beginnings in the First
> World War through the one-sided air operations over Korea."
> There are tables showing aircraft losses by type and they appear to be for
> WW-2.
> Anybody have an interest?
>
> Ron
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:06:00 EST
From:    "Cassady B. Craft" <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Volunteer Reserve and Wireless Operators (fwd)

Hello everyone.  I've got a really good one for you.  This is from a
British friend of mine.  He would like any information that we may have
on the list about what his grandfather may have been (secretly) doing
after being discharged from the RAF.  Any ideas?  I will post any responses
on to Chris.  Also, is the wilde sau speculation in the right time period?
Don't know if gramps actually saw a single engine fighter, or if it could
have been a -110 or -88 etc.  I will try to confirm this from Chris.
Thanks in advance!
  --------------------------Original message----------------------------
Cass, Maybe you could post this to your list and see if you can help me
The story about the sicily invasion suggested it to me. I think I've
told you about my grandad (also you heard the taped interview). Did I mention
the "big secret"? Despite the fact that he's told me every last detail about
his operational flying etc he will not tell me what he did after he was
 officially discharged from the RAF in early '43. (Taking refuge in the
official secrets act....most uncharacteristic!)
I know it had something to do with his wireless knowledge and that he was
given an observer corps uniform (which I have) although he was not a member!
he also had a "set" although whether it was a transmitter or just a receiver
I don't know.
WHat had hoped was someone on your WWII list might be able to shed some light
on this. I read something about something similar in a ham radio magazine
(using discharged wireless ops to monitor German broadcasts...but he speaks
no German...) but I have since misplacd the article.
I am sure its not a big deal but I am curious! So anyone out there know
about using ex RAF W/ops in this manner?

Some information:
Member Wireless reserve (radio engineer/apprentice in 30s)
Joined up at outbreak
Qualifies as W/op AG (Sgt)
serves on q-site at Thorney Island
Flew a tour of operations with 7 squadron on Stirlings
ground duties then revolunteers for ops
13 missions with 101 on wellingtons (photo included in "Bomber Squadron at
War" Ian Allen Pub.) including 1000 bomber raid on cologne and subsequent
Millenium raids
a/c attacked over Borkum (sp?) June 30th 1942 badly injured by cannon shell
fragments (attacked AT NIGHT by a pair of BF 109's -wilde sau?)
commended for contribution to safe return of a/c - getting fixes(DARKIE) whilst
injured
a/c crashlands at Coltishall(Norfolk)
several months in hospital (gangrene...sulpholamide drug trial...that worked!)
Discharged from RAF (disabled)

continues to do something with radio/Observer corps(?) from home in Bedford

Obviously Grandad is getting on a bit and I hope I can get it out of him
this summer if I make it home! but any info I can garner in advance
would be great.

seeya
chris
PS you could just post this up (if you think it's appropriate and then anyone
could mail me direct if this isn't of interest/suitable for the list as a whole

Cassady Craft
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:01:16 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Enola Gay Exhibit

        A few tempers seem to be on the rise concerning the cancellation
of the Smithsonian Enola Gay exhibit so I thought I would reiterate a
portion of the introduction in order to prevent any misunderstands over
the weekend.  I would prefer to err on the side of caution with this
warning since I may not read any new email over the weekend until Monday
and things may have gotten out of hand by then.  I apologize if it is
felt that this is unnecessary and I thank everyone for adhering to it.

>       Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
> responses.  ...
> If you feel that [this topic] must be addressed, ensure that your
> wording is precise; consider the responses that it might evoke; and use
> the topics flag.  It is not my duty to censor any pertinent topic from this
> list, but [this topic] should be handled carefully.  Failure to do so may
> result in "flame wars" which will *not* be tolerated on this list.

--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:43:42 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: WANT: Map information

Fellow WWII'ers

  Can anyone recommend a good source for detail maps showing troop deployment inthe ETO.

Thanks,

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:31:46 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

Just a brief connection.  It wasn't Paraguay and Columbia, but rather
I believe, Paraguay and Bolivia.  Colombia does not border Paraguay
anywhere.
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     When I climb, I enter
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          the Crystal World, and
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    all the answers for my
                              life lay evident before
                              me.

"Civilize the mind and make savage the body."
        Chinese proverb
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:17:13 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Malmedy Massacre

Hello, Alex!

I think I can help with this.


>      I have just started reading Trevor Dupuy's _Hitler's Last Gamble:
> The Battle of the Bulge_ and I have come across something that I never
> heard of before.  According to Dupuy, the facts of the Malmedy Massacre
> and the subsequent trial are both less than clear as to whether or not
> the Nazis actually murdered the men in cold blood or whether many were
> killed in battle or while trying to escape.  Dupuy goes on to say that
> the men who were sentenced may have been railroaded.  I have never known
> Dupuy to be a revisionist, but there's always a first time.  Does any-
> body know anything more about the Massacre or the trial which can
> shed some light on whether or not Dupuy was in fact correct?

    A documentary was produced concerning this including never-before-
seen footage of the trial. There will always be controversy
surrounding the Malmedy Massacre. Peiper claimed that he wasn't there
when it happened, but took responsibility for it. He also claimed
that the American soldiers had surrendered and were sent to the rear
without adequate guard and were mistaken for attackers. Be that as it
may, all responsible directly or indirectly, including Hermann Priess
the Corps Commander and Sepp Dietrich the Army commander were tried,
found guilty of willful und unprovoked assault and sentenced to death
along with Peiper and 23 others.

    Time worked against the verdicts because of the tensions with the
Soviets and the attempt by the Allies not alienate the German
population. A review of the sentences was carried out in 1950 I think
with the chairman of this committee being none other than Senator Joe
McCarthy. He felt that they had been railroaded, sentences were
commuted, some freed, but Peiper's death sentence still stood. This
sentence was never carried out and he was freed from Landsberg Prison
where all were kept, in 1960 (?).

    I don't think the truth will ever be known. One thing that
surprised the Germans, though. They were quite surprised at the
American reaction to this atrocity, because it was not viewed in that
way by the Germans involved in it. These people had been veterans of
years of hard fighting on the Eastern Front where both sides there
guilty of almost wanton killing of prisoners. It was difficult for
them to contemplate a change in this attitude by the Western Allies.
Thus, this wanton killing of Americans was viewed by many involved in
the atrocity as a natural condition of war.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:57:01 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: GEN: Lies and history

Being someone who is fascinated by history, I now come to you with some
thoughtlets.  In philosophy there is a field called 'epistemology,' or the
study of knowledge itself.  Is there a related field in the study of history?

This Enola Gay exhibit discussion is making my mind crank with questions.
On one hand, the war with Japan is over and there is no (we would hope)
prospect of it resuming.  It is in the past.  I hear many of you saying
"What's so hard about studying the past?"  My question exactly.

I look at current issues that are *not* resolved and see revisionism in
progress, as if the 'truth' justifies decisions affecting the future,
e.g., the incredible propaganda issued by Saddam Hussein.  100 years from
now, some poor group of listmembers will prob. argue "current" revisionist
history emanating from the "revisionism"--whatever you call it--already
going on today.

Well, this is no news.  In my own field, there is a none-too-perfect but
useful practice of establishing international standards to make life easier
for librarians who catalog materials, computer software writers, etc.
Compared to human history, that stuff is pretty clearcut (I can hear
the catalogers cursing as I write).  Have there ever been attempts to...
don't know the words here...solidify? "controversial" history such as
atomic bomb dropping on Japan with intl. scholars?  (Most similar thing I
can think of was some religious roundtable about either the life of Christ
or the wording in the Bible, can't remember.)

Are there historians who study revisionism in and of itself?  Is history
ever supposed to be useful, or is that just wishful thinking of those who
study it?

Cheryl Give-Me-Ambiguity-or-Give-Me-Something-Else Abdullah
cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:49:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

Hello, John and Steve!

Just a note.

> It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb projects
> in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could provide
> more definite info?

    This is very true, however the Germans were far more along with
their project than were the Japanese. The Japanese didn't really
become seriously involved in this project until 1944 and even then
only perfunctorily. The reason was that they had no scientists that
possessed the expertise found in Germany, Britain or the US.


    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:10:08 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, James E Irwin wrote:

> :NAZI PAPERS WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION AFTER OUTCRY
>
>     LONDON, Feb 2  - Nazi papers from the extermination camp
> Bergen-Belsen, one of which bears the signature of Adolf Hitler, were
> withdrawn from an auction on Thursday after public protests that the
> timing was tasteless.

James,
I've always been under the impression that there were no papers or other
such documentation which could tie Hitler to the final solution. All his
orders were given orally (or so I've been led to believe). Any idea what
these papers were about? Just wondering.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 16:54:00 PST
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <WSIAKI@BLDGEDUC.LAN1.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Demographic Study of Kiev

Would anyone in the group have or know where I could obtain demographic
statistics of Kiev,UKRAINE for the 1930's and 40's?  For example, populations
by ethnic groups, etc.  Any assistance will be kindly appreciated.

Bill Wsiaki
St. Paul's College Library
University of Manitoba
wsiaki@bldgeduc.lan1.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 19:48:58 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-FEB-1945

On 04-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The U.S. 1st Army is ordered to attack in the Duren sector,
with the 9th Army close on its left. The 78th Division takes Ruhrberg. This
is a first step toward securing the dam at Schwammenauel on the Rur. Units
of the 9th Division reach Lake Urft and secure part of Dam No. 5. The 1st
Division continues the offensive against the West Wall, consolidating in
the Ramscheid area. Northeast of Brandsceid, the 4th Division breaches the
outer defences of the Siegfried Line. The 90th Division is relieved by
units of the 6th and 11th Armoured Divisions and prepare to support the 4th
Division in the offensive against Brandscheid. The 6th Armoured Division
extends its control in the Our River western sector. XII Corps regroups its
divisions in preparation for the offensive across thr Our and the Sauer on
the other side of the Siegfried Line. In the French 1st Army sector, the
U.S. 3rd and 75th Divisions strengthen their positions around Neuf-Brisach.

Italian Front - In the U.S. 5th Army sector, the 92nd Division improves
its positions in the Serchio valley.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps sector, the 1st Cavalry Division carries out
patrol activity on the outskirts of Manila while awaiting reinforcements.
Elements of the 37th Division arrive by evening. In the I Corps sector, the
Americans take San Jose and block the way into the Cagayan valley. They are
unable to break down the Japanese defences at Munoz. The XI Corps is still
being held up at Zigzag Pass. The 11th Airborne Division, who landed in the
Tagaytay Mountains, come within five miles of Manila.

Burma/China - The first convoy to leave Ledo makes a triumphal entry into
Kunming in China after completing a long 970-mile journey.

Crimea - The U.S.-British-Soviet conference opens at Yalta in the Crimea
to consider Allied strategy and related political issues.

The Homefront
-------------
Twenty-three Die In Plane Crash - Twenty-three Army personnel, including
three nurses, have been killed when a transport plane crashed during the
fog into a mountain 60 miles north of Rome.

Nelson Wins Again - Byron Nelson has won the open golf tournament in Corpus
Christi, Texas with a 72-hole total of 274.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:40:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 10 P-40s bomb the airfield
and Japanese HQ at Yungning and railroad yards at Sinyang; 2 of the P-40s
over Sinyang are lost to ground fire. The detachments of the 25th and 26th
Fighter Squadrons, 51st Fighter Group, operating from Leangshan and Laohokow,
China respectfully with P-51s, return to base at Yunnani and Kunming, China
respectfully; the 25th Fighter Squadron sends a detachment to operate from
Poseh with P-51s.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 54 P-38s and P-47s destroy
or damage bridges at Inailong, Bawgyo, Ho-hko, Hay-ti, Mong Long, and Pa-mao;
26 P-47s support ground forces in the Myitson and Hosi areas. Troops,
supplies, and vehicles are attacked at Nam Yem, Na-makhkaw, Mansam, Kong
kang, Nawngsong, Mong Yai, Na-lang, and Pangmit. Again transports complete
500+ sorties to advanced bases and over forward areas, where supplies are
dropped to troops. The 166th Liaison Squadron, 1st Air Commando Group, moves
from Asansol, India to Sinthe, Burma with UC-64s and L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 819: 7 of 9 B-24s drop
leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, the 9th Bombardment
Division attacks a repair depot at Mechernich, the Arloff road and rail
junction, and flies a leaflet mission. The IX and XIX Tactical Air Commands
patrol the battle area. The 158th Liaison Squadron, Ninth AF (attached to
Twelfth Army Group) arrives at Somme-Suippe, France from England with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather cancels bombing
operations for the third successive day. 24 B-24s and 1 B-17 drop supplies
and leaflets in N Yugoslavia. 8 P-38s carry out photo and weather
reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers bomb
railroad bridges at Ala, San Michele all' Adige, Lavis, Dogna, and Bodrez,
and attack the Ala marshalling yard; XXII Tactical Air Command fighters and
fighter-bombers escort the medium bombers and, in widespread areas of N
Italy, destroy 2 bridges, damage 8 others, and blast rolling stock.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 9 B-24s from Guam Island, bomb AA defenses on
Iwo Jima Island while 10 hit the town of Okimura on Chichi Jima Island. 2
B-24s from Saipan Island, on an armed reconnaissance flight, bomb Marcus
Island in the North Pacific. 23 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Caballo Island
in the Philippine Islands. During the night of 4/5 Feb, 8 Guam-based B-24s,
operating singly, pound airfields on Iwo Jima.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 26: For the first time the XXI Bomber
Command sends B-29s from 2 wings [the 73d and 313th Bombardment Wings (Very
Heavy)] against Japanese Home Islands. 110 B-29s are dispatched; 69 bomb the
urban area of Kobe; 30 others, including 15 hitting Natsusaka, bomb last
resort targets and targets of opportunity; about 200 attacking fighters down
1 B-29 and damage 35 others; 1 other crashes upon landing at Saipan Island;
B-29s claim 4-20-39 Japanese aircraft.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s continue to hit Corregidor Island and Cavite; in support of ground
forces B-25s bomb and strafe coast targets from San Felipe to Maloma, hit
targets around lba, and drop napalm on San Jose del Monte and A-20s bomb Lipa
and Calingatan Airfields. HQ 348th Fighter Group and the 340th Fighter
Squadron move from Tanauan, Leyte Island to San Marcelino, Luzon with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

04/0139Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:37:49 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Xerox Copy

You wrote:

>
>Yeah, I would be interested, in which format would you send it out,
>e-mail or on paper?
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail:
gummihe@ismennt.is
>Olduslod 41                                              phone:
(354)-5655270
>220 Hafnarfjordur
(354)-5652270
>ICELAND                                             Maintainer of
ICELAND.FAQ
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>>
>> I have a copy,50 pages, of "Air-To_Air Combat in World War II: A
Quantitative
>> History" by Joseph H. Reinburg November 1966. Its a Research Paper
P-345.
>> "This paper is a brief impressionistic survey of tactical air warfare
(par-
>> ticularly air-to-air combat) from its primitive beginnings in the
First
>> World War through the one-sided air operations over Korea."
>> There are tables showing aircraft losses by type and they appear to
be for
>> WW-2.
>> Anybody have an interest?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>
>
I'm also interested.  How do you want to go about distribution?




--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:46:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] 5 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 5 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 5 B-24s bomb Kataoka on Shimushu Island in the
Kurile Islands through solid overcast; a shipping sweep by B-25s is cancelled
due to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 14 P-51s and P-40s attack
locomotives and trucks at the Pinghan railroad yards, Hsiangcheng, and
Lohochai; at least 9 locomotives and an undetermined number of trucks are
destroyed; the 21st Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth AF,
based at Kunming with F-4s and F-5s, sends a flight to operate from Hsian
(another flight is operating from Luliang).

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 35 P-47s support ground
forces in the Myitson, Hosi, and Molo areas; 8 P-38s bomb Mong Long; 60 P-38s
and P-47s hit troops and supplies at Kan-loi, Nam-yang, Man Peng, Pangmakhe-
leng, Kwangteng, Mong Pa, and Mansam. Transports fly 554 sorties to forward
areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather cancels all operations
except IX Tactical Air Command fighter patrols over the US First Army area
around Butgenbach, Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 730+ B-17s and B-24s bomb oil
storage at Regensburg, Germany, the main station and 2 marshalling yards at
Salzburg, Austria, the marshalling yards at Rosenheim, Germany and Villach,
Austria, and Straubing, Germany railroad installations; 6 bombers bomb the
Comeglians, Italy road bridge. P-38s and P-51s escort the bombers, fly
reconnaissance and reconnaissance support missions, and accompany 25 B-24s on
a supply mission to Yugoslavia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s score excellently
against the San Ambrogio di Valpolicella landslide (the overhanging cliff
collapses on the railroad by bombing) and bridges at San Michele all' Adige
and Calliano; during the night of 4/5 Feb, XXII Tactical Air Command A-20
intruder missions hit lights, motor transport, and roads in the Po Valley and
areas S of Bologna; fighters and fighter-bombers fly 270+ sorties against
communications targets in N Italy; incendiary bombing of a truck park damages
numerous vehicles.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 21 B-24s from Saipan Island bomb AA positions,
defense installations, and a bivouac on the N end of Iwo Jima Island; during
the night of 5/6 Feb, Iwo Jima airfields are pounded by 10 Saipan-based B-24s
flying individual snooper strikes. HQ 15th Fighter Group departs Hawaii for
Iwo Jima.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island, 60
B-24s deliver the heaviest attack yet on Corregidor Island; support for
ground forces continues in various Luzon battle zones. B-25s on a shipping
sweep of the E coast claim 9 barges and luggers sunk and several more
damaged. B-24s bomb Manggar and Sepinggang Airfields on Borneo.  HQ 475th
Fighter Group moves from Dulag, Leyte Island to San Jose, Mindoro Island (the
group's 3 squadrons, the 431st, 432d and 433d Fighter Squadrons, remain at
Dulag with P-38s and send detachments to operate from San Jose).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

04/0145Z

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:55:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 6 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 397th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VI
Bomber Command, moves from the Galapagos Islands to Rio Hato, Panama with
B-24s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 20 P-51s pound and
considerably damage Peking Airfield, claiming 7 aircraft destroyed; other
fighter-bombers on armed reconnaissance hit several targets of opportunity
(mainly rail and river traffic) around Tsingpu, Wuhu, Suchow, Hsiangcheng,
Ichang, Chingmen, and Yungning. Fighter-bombers sink numerous river craft on
the Mekong River from Wan Mai-Lo to Nguen, Burma.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 86 P-47s and P-38s and 25
B-25s pound troop concentrations, supplies, and AA positions in the Lashio
area; 4 P-38s damage the approach to Mong Tong bridge. Transports complete
514 sorties, carrying men and supplies to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 821: 1,383 bombers and 904
fighters are dispatched to attack oil targets in Germany; the expected clear
weather does not materialize and the bombers attack secondary targets and
targets of opportunity using H2X radar; they claim 4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft;
5 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 474 of 949 B-17s hit the secondary target in 2 forces, the marshalling
yard at Chemnitz; targets of opportunity are the Gotha marshalling yard (88),
Giessen (68), Saalfeld (39), Ohrdruf (35), Eisfeld (34), Schmalkalden (32),
Greiz (22), Zwickau (22), Eisenach (13), Waltershausen (12), Dirlos (12),
Ostheim (12), Friedrichroda (11), Steinbach (2), Meppen (1), Reichenbach (1),
Schmalkalden (1), and other (1); 3 B-17s are lost, 13 damaged beyond repair
and 115 damaged; 41 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 24 MIA. Escorting are 545 of
588 P-51s; they claim 1-0-1 aircraft in the air and 3-0-0 on the ground; 4
P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 7 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 418 of 434 B-24s hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at
Magdeburg; targets of opportunity are the Meppen Bridge (1) and Quackenbruck
(1); 2 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 61 damaged; 18 airmen are
MIA. The escort is 235 of 262 P-51s without loss.
  3. 33 of 38 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss.
  4. 8 P-51s escort photo reconnaissance aircraft over Germany.
  5. 8 P-51s escort air-sea-rescue aircraft.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 261 B-26s, A-20s and
A-26s attack the Rheinbach ammunition dump, Sotenich communications center,
Vlatten defended village, Berg-Gladbach motor transport center, and several
casual targets; fighters fly armed reconnaissance, alert flights and patrols,
dive-bomb the Horrem bridge, cut rails, and escort the 9th Bombardment
Division bombers. The 160th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, ceases operating from Conflans, France with F-6s and
returns to base at Le Culot, Belgium. In France, the 392d Fighter Squadron,
367th Fighter Group, moves from Juvincourt to St Dizier with P-38s. Units
moving from France to Belgium with P-47s: the 509th and 510th Fighter
Squadrons, 405th Fighter Group, from St Dizier to Ophoven; the 513th and
514th Fighter Squadrons, 406th Fighter Group, from Metz to Asch.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather permits only supply
and reconnaissance missions; 5 P-38s complete weather and photo
reconnaissance while 12 B-24s and 1 B-17 drop supplies in Yugoslavia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack railroad
targets on the line running N to the Brenner Pass, damaging bridges at
Rovereto and Ala; marshalling yards at Rovereto and San Ambrogio di
Valpolicella and a bridge at Crema are less successfully hit; fighter-bombers
cut railroad bridges at Nervesa delta Battaglia and San Michele all'Adige;
the P-47s claim 3 fighters destroyed in combat N of Verona and attack
numerous targets of opportunity throughout the target areas; during the night
of 5/6 Feb, A-20s attack lights, roads, and motor transport in the C Po
Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 9 Guam Island-based B-24s hit AA defenses and
radar and radio installations on Iwo Jima Island; 10 more bomb Ototo Jima
Island in the Volcano Islands and the the town of Omura on Kyushu Island,
Japan. 1 B-24 from Angaur Island bombs Koror Island in the Palau Islands, and
on Luzon Island, 2 hit Bulan Airfield and 19 bomb Corregidor Island in Manila
Bay. 8 B-24s from Guam Island fly individual strikes against Iwo Jima
airfields during the night of 6/7 Feb.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon, B-24s
bomb Corregidor Island gun positions; B-25s and P-38s hit Echague and a camp
on the Rosario-Baguio road; A-20s attack gun positions and defenses at
Nichols Field in support of ground forces and bomb Caballo Island. B-24s and
B-25s fly coastal sweeps hitting various targets at Divilacan Bay, Hondagua,
and the Bicol Peninsula. A-20s attack Fabrica Airfield on Negros Island,
Philippine Islands. B-24s, with P-38 support hit Manggar and Sepinggang
Airfields in Borneo. The detachment of the 25th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, operating from Dulag, Leyte
Island with F-5s, returns to base at San Jose, Mindoro. The 342d and 460th
Fighter Squadrons, 348th Fighter Group, move from Tanauan, Leyte to San
Marcelino, Luzon with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

04/0154Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 23:35:33 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: CONGRESSIONAL MEDA

For the record, there were a number of Marines besides Smedley Darlington
Butler to be awarded the Medal of Honor two times for separate feats of
heroism. Dan Daly was one, and there were several more in WWI who were awarded
both the Navy and the Army Medal of Honor for the same acts. One of the most
famous Marine Corps-wise was Louis Cukela, whose personality is the source of
many good sea stories. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 23:49:46 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

>civilian casualties in Europe (bombs and death camps)."
>
>It may not have come across real clear, but my intent was to have a display
>showing a photographic account of actions by both sides.  If we are to
>show how cruel we were to the civilian population of an area, we must temper
>it with photographic evidence of cruely by the other side as well.  By
>only showing how cruel one side was is exactly what the problem is.  I
>think we can all agree that war is hell, and it's hell on both sides.  But
>to try and portray the USA as the evil aggressor on WWII and the Japanese
>as the innocent victims of American imperialism is simply not right.
>
>Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |

Alan,

  I hope I was also clear. I agree with you completely.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Feb 1995 to 3 Feb 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 25 messages totalling 2191 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Law of Armed Conflict
  2. ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT
  3. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC
  4. Enola Gay Exhibit (4)
  5. GEN: KILLING OF GERMAN PR...
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945 (2)
  7. ?from high school student JRM
  8. Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP) (2)
  9. Xerox Copy
 10. GEN: Lies and history
 11. Possible "new Europe" study trips
 12. Japan/German Nukes (2)
 13. World War 2 Music
 14. Fortune Magazine
 15. Ascension Island
 16. Returned mail:Bill Huber
 17. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)
 18. INFO: Gestapo and SD
 19. WWII Diary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 00:09:40 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@DORSAI.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: Law of Armed Conflict

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, COL Donnell, Doug wrote:

> There were a few postings last week about attacks on downed pilots so I
> thought I'd dig out some information on the Law of Armed Conflict that might
> be of interest to the List.  While it may seem like war and "playing by the
> rules" are mutually exclusive, there are specific rules regarding what one
> can and can't do (by the rules) during wartime.  Of course, everything is
> subject to interpretation. . .
>
> On the subject of downed pilots -
>
> Persons who, to save themselves, parachute from an aircraft in distress
> should not be attacked while descending.  Once reaching the ground an
> aircrew member should be given the opportunity to surrender before being
> fired upon.  If the aircrew member engages in a hostile act (like shooting
> a weapon), he's fair game.

What you're saying is ideally true, but I think as WWII progressed
thefighting took on a progressively vicious and personal quality.  In the
beginning of the air war, which is pretty much all I know anything about,
there were many instances recorded of traditional chivalry between
pilots.  There is the well known story of Douglas Bader being shot down
over France and becoming the luncheon guest of Adolf Galland and the
Abbeville Kids.  Galland showed him every courtesy short of allowing him
to start up the engine of his personal BF-109.  In his book "The First
and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this.  Russians
were especially guilty of this.  In his war memoirs "Top Secret
Bird", Wolfgang Spate recounts how three Focke-Wulf pilots
in his group had been strafed in their parachutes by Spitfire pilots in
one afternoon of fighting.  Rules are rules, but when war goes on long
enough it becomes dehumanizing and rules go out the window.  At least
that's how it looks to me.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 00:50:27 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

Rod, I doubt if the scripts could be posted because they are each several
hundreds of pages in length and also contain xeroxes of the photos that were
selected. I know that I wouldn't want to keyboard them. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 00:54:35 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

For the 1st Marine Division, which went to Australia after Guadalcanal, there
were several songs which remain popular to this day. One is "Waltzing Matilda,"
which has become the official march of the 1st Marine Division. A second song
was "Now is the Hour," which I think also went under the name of "The Maori
Farewell." Then, of course, each unit had its own songs, the words to which are
unprintable even today. I am thinking of the words of the march past of Company
C, The Black Watch, which were set to the tune "Road to the Isles." When in
Canada several years ago, I visited a bookstore which was selling a book of
British soldiers' songs entitled "Kiss Me Goodnight, Sergeant Major," which is
a great song in itself. Of course, I am getting away from the thread of WWII
music when I bring up soldiers', sailors', and Marines' songs of the war, which
is a whole different, but interesting, subject. Sidney, I would guess you could
jump in here. Cheers, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Feb 1995 19:55:27 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Jaimie Crafton wrote:

> It's interesting, the various comments and opinions on this matter.
> I've been "lurking" in the background, enjoying the postings from the
> group, but I feel I now have something to contribute on this subject.
>
> My sister-in-law has been residing and working in Tokyo for about 2
> years now and was in the "states" for the holidays.  She works in an
> office almost exclusively Japanese and the A-bomb stamp and Enola Gay
> exhibit have been quite the hot topics.  To make a long story short, at
> least her japanese associates are of the opinion that they started it,
> and we ended it the best way we knew how.  She has not heard any
> animosity directed towards her or the U.S. regarding this.  Some of her
> japanese friends even find all the controversy a bit odd.
>
> She paid a visit to the city of Hiroshima to see the memorials and
> museums concerning the bombing(s).  While she did encounter some mixed
> feelings from a few of the "locals" in Hiroshima, the majority still
> viewed it as a consequence of a war THEY STARTED! She did say it was
> kind of eerie seeing that one particular building, that is in all the
> photos, in person.
>
> Anyway, just thought I'de report some "first hand" information.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jaimie Crafton
>


Hi Jaimie C.,

I have several dozen old IJN contacts withwhom I have been corresponding,
and they have stated the same thing.   The Japanese veterans are puzzled
and astonished by all the people (American/Japanese non-veterans),
politicians, and media over the various end of the war issues.  As
far as the old Japanese veterans are concerned, every veteran did the job
they were told to do.  American and Japanese veterans fought many bitter
and tough battles throughout the  Pacific.

Japanese veterans firmly believe that the American veterans did their
absolute best while serving their country.  The Japanese veterans did their
best to serve their country.  Nothing but the best effort was expected during
war.  As ugly as it was, war was war, and many died in the struggle for
the control of the Pacific.

There have been many heart warming reconciliatory meetings between American
and Japanese veterans in Japan and in the United States since the end of
the war.   Friendship has proven stronger than hate.  I am sure that
friendship between old veterans will continue despite all that has been
said to detract from it.  Hopefully, the people who detract from friendship
will not have the last act.

Again, Jaimie, thanks for your post, we need to hear more from the level
headed people like yourself.  I hope more people find room intheir thoughts
and lives for reconciliation and friendship.


Aloha,

John De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 01:49:23 -0500
From:    Thomas Pike <MilArchive@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: KILLING OF GERMAN PR...

James Bacque's OTHER LOSSES aledges US abuses againts German POWs.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 10:23:06 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

On 05-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the VII Corps begins to move
its divisions from Belgium towards the line of the Rur River. The 78th
Division opens the attacks toward the Schwammenauel dam on the Rur. In the
7th Army sector, the VI Corps regroups and continues to advance toward the
Rhine. The 79th Division is relieved by the 101st Airborne Division and the
36th Division. In the French 1st Army sector, the Colmar pocket is cut in
two as units of the U.S. XXI Corps link up with the French I Corps. The
French I Corps takes Ensisheim.

Eastern Front - Elbing is still being attack from all sides, in East
Prussia. In the central sector of the front, the Soviets reach the Oder,
only 30 miles from Berlin and outflank the fortified cities of Kuestrin and
Frankfurt. The Germans report that the Russians have forced the crossing of
the upper Oder below Breslau, north and south of Brieg. Fighting continues
within the beleaguered cities of Posen and Budapest.

Italian Front - The U.S. 92nd Division takes Calomini without difficulty
but is held up by resistance on the slopes of M. Faeto.

Philippines - SWPA headquarters approve plans to reopen Manila Bay, a
mission that is assigned to XI Corps. Air action against Corregidor is
intensified. General MacArthur orders that the Japanese in northern Luzon
be contained while the main effort is directed against the Manila area. The
Japanese withdraw to the river Pasig, on the northern outskirts of Manila,
leaving "scorched earth" in front of the 1st and 37th Division. In the
north, the Japanese hold against attacks by the I Corps in Lupao and Munoz.
In the XI Corps sector, the 38th Division is engaged in heavy fighting in
the area of Zigzag Pass. Some units of the division are forced to retire.
In the 8th Army sector, elements of the 11th Division reach the Paranaque
Bridge, south of Manila.

The Homefront
-------------
Senators Delay Promotions - The Senate has approved the promotion of three
Army officers to the rank of lieutenant general and 28 to major generals
but hold up for a week the promotion of 78 colonels to brigadier generals
in order to investigate the case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt, second son of
the President and one of those up for advancement.

Georgia Poll Tax Repeal Passed - Legislative action on repealing the
Georgia poll tax has been completed in Atlanta when the Senate passes a
House substitute bill restoring permanent registration. The measure now
goes to Gov. Ellis Arnall, who has urged its passage.

Tanker Explosion - The American tanker Springhill has been virtually
destroyed by an explosion and fire in upper New York Bay after being
rammed by the Panamanian tanker Pan-Clio. Nineteen men have been killed, 15
to 20 are missing and 121 are injured.

Basketball Gambling Scandal - Five Brooklyn College basketball players have
admitted they accepted a $1,000 bribe to "throw" a game with Akron
University in Boston on January 31. A Kings County grand jury has indicted
Harvey Stemmer, Henry Rosen and a John Doe known only as "Danny" on charges
of conspiracy to cheat and defraud persons who would have bet on the
contest. Bail for each is set at $25,000. The players - Robert Leder,
Lawrence Pearlstein, Stanley Simon, Jerome Greene and Bernard Barrett - are
named as co-conspirators but there are no charges filed against them. The 5
players have been expelled from the college however.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 07:30:46 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: ?from high school student JRM

From: "Margaret J. McCormick" <mmccormi@SERVICES.DESE.STATE.MO.US>
Subject:      ?from high school student JRM

 Members of the group,

>  If the first bomb was so destructive and awful, why did Japan not
>surrender and avoid being bombed again?

 > I would appreciate any information or opinions on why?  Thank
>you. JRM


>margaret                       mmccormi@services.dese.state.mo.us


This is my own opinion, and I'll gladly subject it to the test of
more knowledgeable list members, but I believe that it took two
bombs to finally convince the Emperor that Japan could not
continue to fight.

It is clear that the decision had to be made by the Emperor himself.
The military command consisted of Generals and Admirals steeped in
the Bushido tradition, a code of honor going back almost a
thousand years, that forbade surrender.  You fought as long as you
could, and if overrun, died honorably in combat.  Should fate
somehow prevent you from dying in combat, you corrected that
oversight by committing "hara kiri" (ritual suicide).  To
surrender was to lose all honor, a fate far worse than death.

It was clear to the high command, in the months immediately before
the atomic bombings, that Japan could not win the war.  It's fleet
was destroyed, it's merchant marine decimated, it's colonies full
of raw materials were in allied hands (except for China, but the
war there cost more than it gained).  The plans being made for the
defense of the home islands were not expected to defeat the
allies, but to inflict as much damage on them as they possibly
could.  Only in fighting as hard and as long as possible, until the
last bit of blood was drained from the Japanese people, could
honor be maintained.

The pain and suffering that would be inflicted on the populace
weren't a consideration.  Every Japanese was expected to sacrifice
for the good of the empire.  Remember, in their eyes, the good of
the empire was measured in terms of honor, not well being.

This was all well and good as long as Japan and the Allies were
fighting in the same arena, in technological terms.  As long as
the Allies were expected to invade, placing millions of lives on
the line, Japan could fight back man to man, give as bad as it got,
and maintain honor.

The destruction of the Atomic bomb, by itself, was not enough to
cause the surrender.  Many Japanese cities, including Tokyo
itself, were far more devastated through conventional bombing than
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were by A-bombs.  The difference was that
Japan could fight back against conventional attacks, shooting down
dozens of bombers, and maintain her honor.  In these new attacks,
the Allies could destroy the nation without even placing themselves
at risk (single B-29s could easily be defended by enough fighters
to make any attempt to intercept them futile).

Here we had a new equation, where the Empire would be destroyed
without being allowed to maintain it's honor by fighting back.
Even so, only the Emperor himself could make that decision.  The
military commanders just could not bring themselves to that
decision, their honor wouldn't let them.  I hope you have had the
opportunity to read the three recent posts by Mike Yaklich that
showed just how close the military came to even overriding the
Emperor.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 07:40:13 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)

You wrote:

>
>On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:
>
>> It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb
projects
>> in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could
provide
>> more definite info?
>
>I don't know about the German project, but the evidence (post-war)
showed
>that the Japanese were pursuing the wrong path (i.e. making a bomb that
>would never work). Perhaps someone else could fill us in on the
details.
>I don't remember if it was on Milhst-l or here, but this was discussed
>about 1/2 yr ago. BTW, Japan does have a nuclear program now which has
>produced warheads _and_ missiles which are arguably superior to the
>American and Soviet (Russian) ones. Everyone knows that the real
>difficulty of developing a nuclear threat is developing a delivery
system
>(I mean, threat to North America). Japan has developed satellite
>launching missiles which could _easily_ be converted to launch nuclear
>weapons. I'm not suggesting that the Japanese have any designs on
bombing
>N America (or anywhere else), just thought y'all would be interested in
>this little-reported story. Sorry Joe, enough non-wwii babble. If
anyone
>wants a copy of a short piece I wrote on this, e-mail me @
drising@acs.bu.edu
>Cheers,
>David Rising
>
>
Both the German and Japanese programs were based on heavy water
extraction, i.e. separating the deuterium from the normal hydrogen in
water.  Deuterium is used in Hydrogen bombs, as the substance that is
fused to produce energy.  Unfortunately for the Axis, in order to
produce the proper environment for hydrogen fusion, you need the energy
of a fission bomb.  If successful in thier attempts the Axis would have
had a weapon with no fuse to ignite it.  Remember how much effort the US
put into producing only 3 little fission bombs.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 08:32:20 PST
From:    Gerry Walker <gwalker@BBS.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Xerox Copy

Like several others, I too would be interested in this. Please let me know
how you plan to distribute it or make it available.

Cheers

Gerry

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 09:37:29 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

>From:         John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
>Subject:      INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>The Homefront
>-------------
>Senators Delay Promotions - The Senate has approved the promotion of three
>Army officers to the rank of lieutenant general and 28 to major generals
>but hold up for a week the promotion of 78 colonels to brigadier generals
>in order to investigate the case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt, second son of
>the President and one of those up for advancement.

John,

Don't leave us hanging. What is (was) the "case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt"?


John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 13:16:57 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Lies and history

Cheryl,
As a graduate student in Museum Studies it is my job to make sure that I
learn as much as possible about the field before I enter the job market. One
of the things that I have been mulling over in my mind the past couple o'
days has been was the Enola Gay exhibit really a case of revisionist history?
At this point and time I am prepared to say no. I have stated on this list
before that I feel the exhibit designers and staff were veiwing the war and
thge bombing through their own set of values and life experiences. The
veterans and civilians who were a part of the war are going to see the
Japanese people and the bombing in a totally different light than a person
that has grown up in the 50s or is a poor member of "Generation X."
I think that the designers and staff of the Smithsonian were honestly trying
to do their best but due to unavoidable differences they fell short. I do not
feel that the ensuing scandle was handled appropriately by the museum but we
all learn as we go.
I'm more than sure that my views will be unpopular but that's my two cents
worth.
Matthew

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 08:37:26 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, John DeVirgilio wrote:

snip snip
>
> Japanese veterans firmly believe that the American veterans did their
> absolute best while serving their country.  The Japanese veterans did their
> best to serve their country.  Nothing but the best effort was expected during
> war.  As ugly as it was, war was war, and many died in the struggle for
> the control of the Pacific.
>
> There have been many heart warming reconciliatory meetings between American
> and Japanese veterans in Japan and in the United States since the end of
> the war.   Friendship has proven stronger than hate.  I am sure that
> friendship between old veterans will continue despite all that has been
> said to detract from it.  Hopefully, the people who detract from friendship
> will not have the last act.
>
> Again, Jaimie, thanks for your post, we need to hear more from the level
> headed people like yourself.  I hope more people find room intheir thoughts
> and lives for reconciliation and friendship.
>
>
> Aloha,
>
> John De Virgilio
>
John D., thanks for your post.  I find it so moving to watch at the
Arizona Memorial (as I know you have too) our Pearl Harbor veterans that
volunteer at the park, people like former Marine Dick Fiske, a buglar on
the Battleship West Virginia, as he meets with former Japanese pilots
that attacked Pearl Harbor, and to hear the stories they tell each other,
the laughter, the tears, the emotions that they can now share with each
other.  These veterans are able to now stand together, reflect on the
past, remember their fallen brothers, and pray for a better future.  In
these almost daily occurances, you see understanding and compassion as
they mutually respect each others experiences.

I can understand that not all veterans are able to be as reconcilitory in
all cases as we see at the Memorial, and we have on occasion see that
there (amoungst the US, not the Japanese), but what I find so hard to
understand are the instances of hate and racism that I have seen
expressed by Americans that are 1 and 2 generations removed from WWII.

For me, the beauty of memorials is to provide future generations
reminders of what those before them sacrificed for what they believed in,
to remind us of their courage, their deeds, their lives that they gave up
for the lives of the future generation.  A memorial can keep alive the
history of the past so that we do not forget it, because that is
dangerous.  But equally dangerous is to keep alive the hatred from the
past.  Memorials can also provide the tool to mend wounds and heal so
that we can then also learn from the past and move to the future.  The
future is hopefully the better world that our veterans and their fallen
brothers fought for.

I'm sorry for getting off the topic here, but I find it hard to not get
wrapped up in the emotions that are daily expressed at the Memorial.
Even when it is crowded with the tour buses, and the lines are backed up
to the parking lot, and the rangers are pulling their hair out dying for
a break, you look deep into the crowd at the faces and you see lots of
sensitivity and emotion in those that have come to visit.  There must be
a reason for why so many want to come to a memorial; to learn, to pay
their respects...

Aloha,

Jim Adams
USS Arizona Memorial

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 11:10:25 -0800
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: Possible "new Europe" study trips

I have written to this list before re. study trips to Moscow (and anybody
wishing to consider the one from May 27-June 27 should contact me for
detailed information quickly).

This message is to explore possible interest in another kind of foreign study
trips. They would essentially revive and revise study trips which I used to
organize to Paris.

I'd like to get and idea of whether you might want to participate in such
courses or if you belong to an organization or institution which might want
to cooperate in offering them.

These would deal with the major changes going in West Europe, but could
include the evolution in East Europe and new East-West relations as well.

As with the Moscow courses:

1) The trips would study political, economic and social issues in the life of
the country, countries or blocs.

2) The trips would last 3-5 weeks and would be open to all interested adults,
not just "students."  Costs would be kept minimal.

These two factors would distinguish them from travel study which does not
take into account the time constraints on working people and which tend to
focus on art & culture and not the other factors of countries' existence.

Possible itinerary and content (schematic and non-exclusive) might include:

1) Time in Brussels, capital of the European Union (EU). Briefing seminars at
headquarters of the EU, NATO. Issues of urban development (crucial because
large parts of the city are being remade for the benefit of the international
bureaucracies), nationality conflicts and federalism (the division of Belgium
into French- and Flemish-speaking populations). Business relations between
Europe and North America.

2) Time in Paris. Issues of immigrant labor, influences of ethnic relations
and xenophobia (especially with regard to North Africa) on French and
European politics, public transport policy (Metro, etc., rail transport
including the high-speed networks), seminars at international organizations
(UNESCO, OECD), privatization and economic relations, cultural policies.

3) Time on an "educational farm" in a ski and forest area near the Swiss
border (travel by TGV train). Participation in the day-to-day work of the
farm. Discussions on rural development and disintegration; the relationships
of technology, education and work (Europe has about 12% unemployment, which
is much higher among youth, who see few perspectives); environment and
tourism. Visits to Besancon and to Geneva, seminars at international
organizations in the latter (UN, International Labor Organization, Red
Cross).

It is conceivable that we could do a trip with a couple weeks in West Europe
and a couple weeks in Russia.

These courses could be organized at various times of the year. The times
would be influenced by low-cost residential possibilities. Brussels should be
available year-round. In Paris there is more availability when universities
are closed for summer. The farm is not available during school holidays
because they are already receiving groups.

Please help by reacting. I will be returning to Paris early in March and
could start making arrangements on the basis of responses.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 13:46:50 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <bwroblew@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Steve New wrote:

> You wrote:
>
> >
> >On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:
> >
> >> It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb
> projects
> >> in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could
> provide
> >> more definite info?
> >
> >I don't know about the German project, but the evidence (post-war)
> showed
> >that the Japanese were pursuing the wrong path (i.e. making a bomb that
> >would never work). Perhaps someone else could fill us in on the
> details.
> >I don't remember if it was on Milhst-l or here, but this was discussed
> >about 1/2 yr ago. BTW, Japan does have a nuclear program now which has
> >produced warheads _and_ missiles which are arguably superior to the
> >American and Soviet (Russian) ones. Everyone knows that the real
> >difficulty of developing a nuclear threat is developing a delivery
> system
> >(I mean, threat to North America). Japan has developed satellite
> >launching missiles which could _easily_ be converted to launch nuclear
> >weapons. I'm not suggesting that the Japanese have any designs on
> bombing
> >N America (or anywhere else), just thought y'all would be interested in
> >this little-reported story. Sorry Joe, enough non-wwii babble. If
> anyone
> >wants a copy of a short piece I wrote on this, e-mail me @
> drising@acs.bu.edu
> >Cheers,
> >David Rising
> >
> >
> Both the German and Japanese programs were based on heavy water
> extraction, i.e. separating the deuterium from the normal hydrogen in
> water.  Deuterium is used in Hydrogen bombs, as the substance that is
> fused to produce energy.  Unfortunately for the Axis, in order to
> produce the proper environment for hydrogen fusion, you need the energy
> of a fission bomb.  If successful in thier attempts the Axis would have
> had a weapon with no fuse to ignite it.  Remember how much effort the US
> put into producing only 3 little fission bombs.
>
>
> --
>
> Steve L. New
> newst@ix.netcom.com
> Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.
>

For more information on the Japanese program you might check page 346
of "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes
        Bruno

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 16:23:36 -0500
From:    Henry Herz <herzh@CPVA.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Japan/German Nukes

> > >...BTW, Japan does have a nuclear program now which has
> > >produced warheads _and_ missiles which are arguably superior to the
> > >American and Soviet (Russian) ones....
> > >Cheers,
> > >David Rising
> > >

David-

Exsqueeze me!!!  I have NEVER heard that the Japanese have nuclear weapons
(reactors, yes).  That would be in violation of their constitution.  My
understanding is that only the US, former USSR, Britain, France, PRC, India,
Israel & probably Pakistan and South Africa have nukes.  Would you please
provide a reference for that claim for Japan.  Thanks.

-Henry

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 15:03:27 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: World War 2 Music

A A A R R G G H H ! ! !

all four of her albums in my collection were German labels-- you mean she
was THAT close all these years?? Talk about your missed opportunities--
first Marlene Dietrich cancels her '74 Chicago concert appearance (and us
with front row seats & a LOLA banner), and now Lale in Winnipeg.  This is
even worse than Mike not finding anything on the DACIA.

A A A R R G G H H ! ! !  (again!)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> 'be a good idea to also include LILI MARLENE --
>
>  Originally an obscure song by a
> little-known German singer, the record was played over the German
> army radio station in Belgrade, for transmission to the Afrika Korps
> in Libya.  The singer was Lale Andersen.  Her song became so popular
>
> Lale Andersen did not make any money, despite the popularity of her
> rendition.  She emigrated to Canada after the war, and died a few
> years ago in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
>
> Regards -- Sidney  (and you're all lucky this isn't *voice-mail* ! )
>
>
> --
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 16:46:54 -0500
From:    Laurie Peloquin <lpeloqui@MC6ADM.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine

On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, mc killop wrote:

> I have an unconfirmed report that Fortune magazine published a survey in
> late 1945 or early 1946 indicating that 22% of Americans thought the war
> in the Pacific had ended too soon, i.e., before we could really blast the
> Japanese.

I haven't noticed a reply to this yet, but I have located the survey.  It
is in the December 1945 issue of Fortune.  Here is the question, the
answers, and the commentary which followed this section:

"Which of these comes closest to describing how you feel about our use of
the atomic bomb?"

We should not have used any atomic bombs at all                  4.5%
We should have dropped one first on some unpopulated region,
  to show the Japanese its power, and dropped the second
  one on a city only if they hadn't surrendered after the
  first one                                                     13.8%
We should have used the two bombs on cities, just as
  we did                                                        53.5%
We should have quickly used many more of them before
  Japan had a chance to surrender                               22.7%
Don't know                                                       5.5%

"The poor and traditionally fire-eating pelple of the south western
states turned in a larger minority (nearly 30%) for the last and most
destructive course suggested.  The well-to-do and the well-educated
turned in larger than average minorities for the two milder courses of
action, smaller minorities for extreme violence.  And Negroes, differing
radically from the poor followed a pattern similar to the well-to-do.  In
further analysis of the answers there is support for those who believe
that war is bred by violent thoughts.  Of those who expect a big war in
the next thirty years 27.3% were in favor of maximum use of the bombs.
But only 18.8% of those who believe another big war may be avoided also
thought Japan should have been plastered with atomic bombs."

The survey is quite long, and broken into topics called, "The next war",
"Germany and Japan", "The atomic bomb", "High command", and "Truman and
transition".  I have a very poor photocopy if anyone is interested in the
rest of it.

Laurie Peloquin
Wilfred Laurier University

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 16:39:46 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

On Feb. 2 Bruno Wroblewski posted a message about Ascension Island, asking
about the sorts of aircraft that passed through their, supplies for the
garrison, etc.

I have access to the National Air & Space Museum archival videodisc that
contains the USAF WWII Overseas photo collection (about 50,000 images).  I
looked up what it had on Ascension Island and found about 120 images.  I
know nothing about the numbers of aircraft that passed through there, but
I found images of the following a/c types:  P-39, B-25, C-47, C-54, B-17,
and B-26.

The island looked pretty bleak during WWII.  What I found most interesting
was a section of photos on agriculture.  There were apparently extensive
facilities, including a hydroponics lab, to raise food for the troops
stationed there.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 17:46:23 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan/German Nukes

Before this goes too far, I want to clarify my original post because
I missed an important word--"capability". Japan does not have nuclear
weapons (that anyone knows of) but they do have the materials and the
technology to produce them _and_ have been stockpiling plutonium. They do
also have a solid fuel rocket with which they could launch them if they
wished. Sorry about the confusion I may have created.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:34:29 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Returned mail:Bill Huber

Sorry for posting this to the list, thought this made it!

>
> Howdy, Bill!
>
> Terry Moore said you might send me the info on Mr. Holzinger.
>
> Also Smedley Butler won two CMoH's in 1914 and 1915.  He almost won a third in
> 1900, but at the time Marine officers were not allowed to receive such an honor.
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
> Semper Fi!!
> Chip Mattocks
> chipm@c.abac.peachnet.edu
>
suaviter in modo, fortiter in re

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 20:02:07 -0600
From:    Chuck Johnson <cjohnson@GONIX.GONIX.COM>
Subject: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

> . . .  In his book "The First
> and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
> bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
> wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
> knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
> Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this. . . .

Is there anyone on the Allied side that can confirm that this was done?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 09:59:56 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

I would like to add a bit to the posting of Jaimie Crafton:

I have Japanese friend who I have known since 1963.  His family is from
Hiroshima and in 1970 I visited his family there.  He and the other
members of his family were staying at the family country home but his
father was in the downtown area when the bomb was dropped.  He survived
and suffered only a cut across his upper lip which left a (not very
noticable) scar.

The father told me that he didn't mind the scar since before the women
chased after him; once he had it they stopped.

Incidently, his wife, my friend's mother, once she found I was single,
wanted to marry me off to one of the eligible women employees of their
company.

Perhaps all this was because I was a friend of their son, but I thought
their cordiality was not only inbred but sincere.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 22:32:11 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: INFO: Gestapo and SD

Hello all,
   I am still working on my paper for Richard Breitman's Nazi Germany class
about the Gestapo and the SD.  I have only begun my research, which has
consisted at glancing at a few books.  The paper, I believe, will focus
on the ORGANIZATIONAL history.  This means that major events, such as the
Anschluss, Blomberg-Fritsch affair, Night of the Long Knives, etc. will only
be discussed insofar as they effected the organizations; thus, this excludes
a detailed discussion of their participation in those events.  The reason
for this is that all the major events such as those listed have been
extensively covered in other works.  It is not my goal to retell them
from a slightly different point of view.
    I do, however, have certain questions which I hope that some might be
able to answer.  First, how closely did the Gestapo work with the Orpo?
I ask this because, while both were under Himmler, the Gestapo was part
of the Sipo and Heydrich while the Orpo was under Kurt Daluege.  Therefore,
there was a seperation at the upper elechon of the police and, I imagine,
it was fairly intense given the personality of Heydrich.  Did this persist
to the lower levels of cooperation?  Additionally, did the Gestapo carry
out all of its arrests on its own or did they use various SS or civil
service persons?
    Second question: What were the differences in the operations of the Gestapo
and the SD abroad?  They two are often mentioned in the same sentence when
speaking of fomenting the Nazi movements in Austria or Czechoslovakia.  In
fact, the party itself added to the mosaic of foreign operatives.  Were these
organizations given seperate tasks or were they all doing the same thing?
    Third, on internal Reich affairs, the Gestapo had responsibility to
look to the security of the Reich as Political police.  The SD had the
responsibility to look to the security of the Reich as the Party Intelligence
Service.  But, by 1934, the Reich became little more than an extension of
the Party (in the view of Hitler) and therefore the SD monitored non-party
environments such as universities, churches, etc.  Besides the fact that
the Gestapo had the responsibility of arresting, imprisoning, etc., what
were the practical differences between the two.  In theory, the Gestapo
was a state organization, while the SD was a party organization.  But, as I
mentioned, the party and state were almost one.

Third question: In operations in occupied territories and in particular the
securing of power and eventually the Final Solution, both the SD and Gestapo
were involved.  Was there any differences in their roles?

Thank you for any help you might be able to give.  If anyone would like,
I can upload copies of the paper if I ever get it finished.

William Lippert
The American University
WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 20:10:24 -0800
From:    dew567359 <nw567359@VISTA.HEVANET.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

        ****I just stopped by to drop off something that one of your members
thought would be a worthwhile addition to your List.  Nicole

        This is the unabridged diary as kept by Manny Macias the brother
of Dr. Macias, a professor in our Languages department.  It is a part of our
Univeristy's archives.****:

May 9, 1944     Went to Santa Barbara.

5/10    Sun.    Reported back to camp.

5/11    Mon.    Started packing.

5/12    Tue.    Continued packing.

5/13    Wed.    Got orders.  Pulled out at 2:30.  Boarded troop sleeper,
                rode south all day.  Took calisthenics in Yermo.

5/14    Thur.   Woke up in Nevada, rode all day.  Reached SL City at night.

5/15    Fri.    Rode all day in Nevada.  Rode through the Rockies, very
                beautiful.

5/16    Sat.    Went through Colo.  Ate supper in K.C.

5/17    Sun.    Woke up in St. Louis.  Had Mass in a field outside of town.
                Took exercises in Indiana.

5/18    Mon.    Rode all day in W. Va.  Reached Wash. D.C late at night.

5/19    Tue.    Reached Camp Kilmer, N.J. early.  Went to barracks, had
                inspection.

5/20    Wed.    Wrote four letters.  Had clothing inspection.

5/21    Thur.   Saw movies, had boat drill.

5/22    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

5/23    Sat.    Got pass, went to N.Y. to find cousins, couldn't.  Went
                to show, saw Andrew Sisters in person.

5/24    Sun.    Saw cousins.  Spent evening with them.

5/25    Mon.    Had another pass, went to Rockerfeller Center on tour.
                Bought present for Mom bday.  Spent evening in Stage Door
                Canteen.

5/26    Tue.    Had final clothing check.

5/27    Wed.    Began packing, cleaned area, marched to train.  Rolled every-
                thing up.

5/28    Thur.   Finished packing, cleaned area, marched to train.  Rode
                for 1 1/2 hr to ferry.  Rode ferry to N.Y. harbor and got on
                U.S.S. Hermitage formerly Conte De Savoia.  Got installed in
                B Deck.

5/29    Fri.    Woke up out at sea, got sick.  Went aft for Orientation.  Saw
                convoy.

5/30    Sat.    Sick all day.  Got paid.

6/1     Sun.    Too sick to go to Mass on fantail.

6/2     Mon.    Sick all day.

6/3     Tue.    Sick all day.

6/4     Wed.    Sick all day.  Spent some time on deck but of not much use.

6/5     Thur.   Sick all day.  Spent some time on deck but of not much use.

6/5     Thur.   Felt little better today.  Ate a little.  Spent a lot of
                time on deck reading.  Felt good.

6/6     Fri.    Felt pretty fair today.

6/7     Sat.    Felt fine, got out and watched convoy.  Was hungry for change.

6/8     Sun.    Got up late but went to Mass in Officer's mess room.  Spent
                most of rest of day below deck.

6/9     Mon.    Sighted land, was in sight all day.  Toward night we swung
                toward Southhampton.

6/10    Tue.    Woke up docked.  Was on board all day, Navy band played
                for us.  At night we unloaded took short train ride and
                got off at Tisbury, walked couple miles to camp.  Got
                baggage, little chow, assigned to nissen huts, made beds,
                turned in.

END OF FIRST PART OF DIARY

10/11/44 Wed.   Went to sleep, was cold during night.  No formations except
                for purposes of giving out information.

10/12   Thur.   Got up late-worked on sociology assignment, played cards.

10/13   Fri.    Nothing unusual today.

10/14   Sat.    Nothing unusual today.

10/15   Sun.    Nothing unusual today.

10/16   Mon.    Training schedule out.  I was on guard at Bn.

10/17   Tue.    Wrote few letters, got one from Frances.

10/18   Wed.    Went to sleep, was cold during night.  No formations except
                for purposes of giving out information.

10/19   Thur.   Nothing unusual today.

10/20   Fri.    Nothing unusual today.

10/21   Sat.    Nothing unusual today.

10/22   Sun.    Nothing unusual today.

10/23   Mon.    Nothing unusual today.

10/24   Tue.    Nothing unusual today.

10/25   Wed.    Nothing unusual today.

10/26   Thur.   Went on hike, went to PX afterwords and got rations.

10/27   Fri.    Went on long hike, Red Cross wagon with coffee and doughnuts
                was at Bn.  Sure tasted good.

10/28   Sat.    Finished reading Tree Grows In Brooklyn.  Had quite a few
                discussions with boys in Hut at night.

10/29   Sun.    Got up late but ate breakfast, had a fried egg.  Stayed in hut
                all day.

(Confusion of days and dates at this point)

****Checking calendars of the period, I have presumed to straighten out the
date confusion and obviate the need to call for a missing entry re:
10/31...Nicole****

10/30   Mon.    Nothing unusual today.  (Mon. crossed out-Sun. substituted)

10/31   Tue.    (This entry is missing).  Nothing unusual today.

11/1/44 Wed.    Nothing unusual today.

11/2    Thur.   Got paid today.

11/3    Fri.    (Friday missing)

11/4    Sat.    On K.P. today.

11/5    Sun.    Spent day in barracks slopping.

11/6    Mon.    Nothing unusual today.

11/7    Tue.    Nothing unusual today.

11/8    Wed.    Was on guard at motor pool.  Shift was long and rugged.

11/9    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

11/10   Fri.    Nothing unusual.

11/11   Sat.    Armistice Day-bought poppies from girls.  Washed field
                jacket.  Signed up for pass to London.

11/12   Sun.    Spent day reading.

11/13   Mon.    Shapiro and I rode train to London, caught cab, rode to Hans
                Crescent Club.  Had dinner.  Went for walk, then back to club
                for show.

11/14   Tue.    Shapiro and I went on tour of sights, saw lots of sights.  We
                ate dinner at American Embassy club with Shapiro's friend,
                Mr. Lyons and oldest daughter.  Went for walk all
                afternoon and sgt. and I went to his home for supper.
                Met whole family.  Had a pleasant eve.  Really enjoyed pass.
                Had buzz bomb raid later in eve.

11/15   Wed.    Came back to camp today.

11/16   Thur.   Spent part of day cleaning M. guns.

11/17   Fri.    Got letter from Pop.

11/18   Sat.    Played football in afternoon.  Chopped wood later.  Spent
                evening in barracks reading.

11/19   Sun.    Slept late.

11/20   Mon.    Nothing unusual.

11/21   Tue.    Nothing unusual.

11/22   Wed.    Nothing unusual.

11/23   Thur.   Thanksgiving.  Had good meal.  Wrote home.

11/24   Fri.    Nothing unusual.

11/25   Sat.    Nothing unusual.

11/26   Sun.    K.P. today.

11/27   Mon.    Nothing unusual.

11/28   Tues.   Nothing unusual.

11/29   Wed.    Nothing unusual.

11/30   Thur.   Got paid today.

12/1/44 Fri.    Got package from Frances.

12/2    Sat.    Got bedrolls.  Washed clothes, went to show.

12/3    Sun.    Flopped it up all day.

12/4    Mon.    Was on guard duty.  Stayed in all day.

12/5    Tue.    Got 6 letters at mail call.

12/6    Wed.    Nothing unusual.

12/7    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

12/8    Fri.    Worked all day.

12/9    Sat.    Stayed in.

12/10   Sun.    Went to Mass.

12/11   Mon.    Rumors out that we are leaving.

12/12   Tue.    Lots of letters and packages in.  Have hut fixed up with
                tree and colored paper.

12/13   Wed.    Read.  Nothing unusual.

12/14   Thur.   Had to practice combat loading.  The halftracks were
                leaving soon.  Left Fonthill today and rode train to
                Southhampton.  Walked long way to camp.  Spent all day
                in camp.  Were restricted to area.  Had C-rations and
                slept in 5-man tents.

12/15   Fri.    Got up early, marched down to docks and loaded on
                transports.  Pulled out and anchored in harbor, stayed
                all day.

12/16   Sat.    Had hard night.  Early in morning ship left harbor and we
                landed in Cherbourg.  Harbor full of sunken ships.
                Unloaded from boat, loaded on trucks, rode to field outside
                of Rennes and pitched pup tents.

12/17   Sun.    Rained all night.  Got clothes and bedroll wet.  Loaded on
                halftracks and headed south.  Reached town of Rennes and
                proceeded to airport.  Rumor is we are heading south to break
                pocket at St. Nazaire.

12/18   Mon.    Still at airport.  Division beginning to assemble here.

12/19   Tue.    Still at airport.  PX rations in.

12/20   Wed.    Rumours are that the Germans are attacking up front, sounds
                bad.  We left airport and began riding north.  Rode halftracks,
                weather cold as hell.  Bivouacked with Higgisson.

12/21   Thur.   Broke bivouac and left early on halftracks, weather still
                cold as hell.  Higgisson and I pitched pup tents agan(sic)
                together.

12/22   Fri.    News bad from the front.  Rode thru Paris, got loaves of bread.
                On outskirts people scared as German paratroopers have
                dropped.  Went through Chateau-Thierry.  Saw monument way
                off on hill top.  Bivouaked(sic) with Higgisson on field
                where big battle had been fought.  No more fires after tonight.

12/23   Sat.    Rode all day, cold, few miles beyond Reims came to a big
                French Cavalry Camp, Camp Sisson, stayed there all night.
                Was glad to get a billet.  Red Cross had coffee and doughnuts.

12/24   Sun.    Got our duffle bags, were told to get everything we needed
                out of them as we wouldn't see them for awhile.  Weather
                terribly cold.  Wrote letters home.  Washed clothes, cleaned
                up, shaved, etc.  Paratroopers stationed here had band and
                gave a show for us in the Red Cross club.  Colored boys sang
                Christmas hymns.  Walked back to barracks and band played
                Xmas carols.  Ice on ground, weather cold, homesick as hell.
                Lieutenant says Germans have surrounded 3 Inf. and 2 Arm'd
                Divisions.  News sounds bad.

12/25   Mon.    Left Camp Sisson, moved out to some woods in mobile
                reserve.  Had Xmas turkey, cold.  Shapiro had bottle, passed
                it around.

12/26   Tue.    Weather colder.

12/27   Wed.    Weather cold, cutting wood, for fire best way to keep warm.
                German plane flew over tonight.

12/28   Thur.   Pulled out from woods, headed toward front.  Crossed Belgian
                border.

12/29   Fri.    Rumors flying.  We are supposed to clean out towns.  Fr. Galvin
                gave us General absolution.  Some boys the 21st have already
                been killed.  It snowed at night.

12/30   Sat.    Travelled around on highways.  Saw P-47's strafing in distance.
                Saw ambulances with wounded.  We were in New Chateau area,
                Bastogne 21 km.

12/31   Sun.    Piled out of halftracks.  Got all equipment and started off.
                Went through woods and Flad stepped on shoe mine blew foot
                off.  Went up to hilltop and began digging in.  Germans
                spotted us and sent mortar, artillery and sniper fire.  We
                began digging in and ground was frozen.  Took all day for Lopez
                and me to dig hole.  Several boys killed several wounded.  At
                night tanks and infantry counter attacked and captured some
                boys in 1st platoon.  Higgisson and Sobrowsky captured.  We
                drove them off but they inflicted some damage on us.  Boinski
                joined us in a hole.

1945 1/1/45 Mon.Counted 17 dead Germans in front of my hole.  Some artillery
                fire today.  Hulbert and Shapiro shot.

1/2     Tue.    Things quieting down.  P 47's strafing town over hill.
                C-company four tanks attacked town and Germans drove them out.
                Could count 4 tanks burning over hill.  Got mail in today,
                improved foxhole.  Rumored we get relieved soon.

1/3     Wed.    Had New Year turkey today.  Sure tasted good.  We're relieved
                by 17th airborne boys.  Pulled back in halftrack 2 miles
                and dug in again-mobile.  Went to aid station to have feet
                checked.  Came back and Bolinger and I used pick and shovel
                to dig big hole, got straw and laid bed rolls out and went
                to sleep.

1/4     Thur.   Snowed during night-bedrolls covered.  Rumored that billets
                waiting for us.

1/5     Fri.    Still here.  Went to barn and cleaned guns.  Slept in barn.

1/6     Sat.    Took turns spending nights in barn and machine gun outpost.

1/7     Sun.    Bolinski has had case of piles and had to be evacuated.

1/8     Mon.    Mail and PX rations in.  Got letter from Art.  Shirley expecting
                sometime end of this month.

1/9     Tue.    Mail in.  Got letter from Jimmie.  Went to barn for shave.
                Snow on ground.  Weather cold.

1/10    Wed.    Tore down fences and sheds for firewood.  Rumors that 17
                Airborne got Hell knocked out of them.

1/11    Thur.   Artillery behind us firing all time.  War news according to
                Stars and Stripes still not good.

1/12    Fri.    Orders came suddenly to pull out this afternoon.  Battalion
                loaded up and moved out.  Passed infantry joes moving up on
                foot.  Heading North.  Weather getting colder.  Passed
                beat up towns, destroyed GI and German tanks, dead
                cattle-German cemeteries.  Lopez has charge of squad, got us
                billets in barn.  I had second relief on guard, windy as
                hell.  Orders no light at night at all, we are in Bastogne
                perimeter.

1/13    Sat.    Began driving.  Lopez and I with one gun.  Passed several
                towns-all empty.  Met some boys of 101st Airborne in fox
                holes and they sure had it rugged.  Lopez and I dug in
                together.

1/14    Sun.    Went into woods 1/2 mi from Longchamps and caught it
                rough.  Bolinger shot by sniper, Chernoff bad hit by
                mortar shrapnel.  Hanto shot by burp gun, Petty hit by
                shrapnel, Lt. Krutcheon killed, Lt. Thorpe hit in leg,
                Lopez hit at night, had my overcoat ripped by shrapnel.
                Dug in at night with Hanson-am only man left in squad-
                Company shot to Hell, no non-coms left in second platoon.

1/15    Mon.    Lt. Dunn killed.  What's left of company began following
                82nd Airborne which was attacking.  Waste is appalling.
                Equipment thrown all over area.  Saw few dead GI's.  Dug
                in with Zeke Doss.

1/16    Tue.    Shoved off today.  Went down to road and loaded up
                in halftracks and rode to spot near highway and dug in.
                Highway full of burned out American tanks.  Rumor that 1
                and 3 armies have made contact.  PX rations and mail came
                in.  Went to aid staion for rest, came back had coffee and
                doughnuts sent up by Red Cross.

1/17    Wed.    Had good night's sleep.  Loaded up moved to town of Hardigny.
                Town as hot as hell.  2nd Platoon out on outpost.  Only 13
                men left so two German dugouts fill bill.  Larkin in charge.

1/18    Thur.   Fernandez and I have guard relief together.  Have to cross
                open field so can go to town for hot chow only morning and
                night when dark.  Weather cold.

1/19    Fri.    Nemic found German ammo can, cut holes and now have stove.

1/20    Sat.    Pulled out just after dark, went to next town.  Started
                digging in.  Hanson got house so I man in foxhole, others
                sleep.  Snowed hard on my relief, got down my neck, dug foxhole
                deeper to keep warm.

1/21    Sun.    Got officially relieved at noon today.  Every(sic) happy,
                got installed in a house down road and cleaned up.  PX
                rations in.  Slept in house.

1/22    Mon.    Have GI's Miserable!  Have to get up dozen times a night.
                Shoe pacs in today.

1/23    Tue.    My hand swollen.  Had to have school ring cut off.

1/24    Wed.    Sgt. Brunner back, loaded on halftracks went back to
                town of Margerotte, Belgium.  Uhernic, Ettinger and I
                together in nice loft over barn.  Got bread and jam from
                kitchen and can of Dubbing for heat.  Barn has oven
                below, went there and got warmed up.

1/25    Thur.   Snowed last night.  Replacements coming into company.  Went
                over to CP, wrote letters home.

1/26    Fri.    More replacements coming in.  Signed up to go to a
                dentist.  Wrote home.

1/27    Sat.    Wrote home.

1/28    Sun.    Church in little Belgian place across the street.

1/29    Mon.    Went to dentist.  Had extraction.

1/30    Tue.    Mail in.

1/31    Wed.    Snow melting, weather warming up.  Got news that Bolinger
                died.  Payday.

2/1/45  Thur.   Went out fired guns.  Hanson in charge of squad.
                Leaving tomorrow.

2/2     Fri.    Left Margerrotte, rode halftracks to Longchamps.
                2nd Platoon took over Belgian house.  Squad had upstairs
                front room.

2/3     Sat.    Went out to field and ran problems with tankers to give
                new men idea of tactics.  Mail came in, had several
                letters, got stationery from Jean and Jo.  Nothing from
                Frances.  Got acquainted with Spain new second in command
                of squad.  Snow all gone.

2/4     Sun.    Loaded up and began riding North.  Hanson says St. Vith not
                taken yet.  Passed lots of torn up towns, saw much dead
                livestock, German tanks.  Began raining.  Late in afternoon
                cross OUR RIVER which has been recently taken, moved to hilltop
                then crossed German border to forest.  Much German equipment
                about.  Took over dugout.  Jumping off tomorrow.

2/5     Mon.    Got up at 2AM breakfast.  2:30 loaded up halftracks, began
                raining, lots of time to think, after long while shoved
                off to nearest town, unloaded, got equipment, took off.
                Walked long ways.  A company ahead of us began bringing
                in prisoners.  Walking wounded and stretcher cases moving
                back too.  Saw ditches full of dead Germans, one boy's
                face I'll never forget, lips curled back, teeth protruding
                horribly.  Screaming meemies fired at us.  American artillery
                fell short, God how frightening.  Sgt. Burns hit through
                back with G.I. artillery.  Reached, Dragon's Teeth of
                Siegfried Line, climbed over and a few yards beyond began
                digging in.  Schmitz and I digging in together.  No mortars
                fell till afternoon when Foxhole all dug.  Struck water,
                kept bailing out, shoepacs not much good, feet all wet.  Had
                to leave hole, Schmitz moved with Ost, I with Hanson.  Mortars
                coming in.  Burns died.

2/6     Tue.    Cold night.  Hanson and I talked all day.  He was ASTP at
                Oregon.  Mortar fire coming from 3 mortars, can hear them go
                off.  Artillery coming in, 88's and plenty American artillery
                going out.  Hanson and I splitting K rations and eating 6
                times daily.

2/7     Wed.    Hanson and I have just about run out of things to talk about.
                Have watched his beard growing.  Germans fired screaming meemy
                at night.  Terrific weapon.  Went back to barn for 3 hours
                rest.  Lot of boys getting trench and frozen feet.  Spain
                and Chevalier evacuated.

2/8     Thur.   Went back to barn all afternoon.  Machine gun spotted us on
                road and pinned us down.  Got away by running through field.
                Snowed tonight and soaking wet, foxhole muddy, God, what
                misery.

2/9     Fri.    Captain Reimer hurt in booby trap explosion.  Sent back with
                trench foot.  Lt. Jamison only officer left.  Sgt. Bruener
                acting as platoon leader.

2/10    Sat.    Mortars still coming in.  Am soaked to skin.

2/11    Sun.    Got relieved late at night by 90th Inf.  Carried MG back
                through rain and mud.  Reached vehicle area and Uhernik
                piled halftrack into tree so squad loaded up on other
                tracks.  I got on Trotta's track.  We rode back to original
                jump off area in woods and slept in half tracks.

2/12    Mon.    Woke up stiff and sore.  Rained, am soaked.  Stayed all day
                in woods as billets not available.  Knees and crotch ached
                from dampness.  Went back in woods to German dugout, had
                bunks in them.  Got in bunk, left hand swelled up an ached
                so much, couldn't sleep all night.

2/13    Tue.    Loaded up in afternoon and went back to Belgium.  Got
                billets in Doctor's house.  Our squad had one room.  Uhernik
                got late Xmas boxes from home.  Got water and cleaned up.

2/14    Wed.    Rested all day.  Had Doctor look at my arm.  Went to movie
                in town at night.

2/15    Thur.   Went to Doctor again.  Crooks had to be evacuated.  Left
                billet rode back to same woods again.  Hanson and I dug out
                slit trench covered it with pine boughs and slept in there.

2/16    Fri.    Stayed in same area.  Captain Marcereau from Service Company
                is new Company Commander.

2/17    Sat.    Help repair road.  Leaving tomorrow.

2/18    Sun.    Got up early, jumped off before dawn.  Walked all day, came
                up to Siegfried line just about dark, followed tanks and
                jumped across big open field to take town.  Mortars came
                in thick and fast but town was deserted.  Moved to edge of
                town and dug in.  Kitchen set up coffee and doughnuts.

2/19    Mon.    In afternoon jumped off to take next town.  Took it but
                some fellows killed and some wounded.  Dug in with Faulkner
                by dead smelly cow.  Mortars coming in, hurt guys behind
                and in front of us but by miracle we weren't hit.  Took
                turns at guard and slept part of night in basement of
                house.

2/20    Tue.    Stayed in same foxhole all day.  Mortars slacked off.
                Went back to last town for hot chow.

2/21    Wed.    Jumped off this morning to clear some pillboxes.  Capt.
                Marcereau hit so Lt. Houston is CO.  Took few prisoners,
                were fired on once, cleaned out plenty pillboxes and
                bunkers, went through barb wire moved back to field, dug
                in with Smallwood.  Inspected bunker, wonderful arrangement
                inside.

2/22    Thur.   Jumped off this morning.  Had ten minute artillery barrage,
                followed tanks into town named Eschfeld.  Mortar hit barn
                behind me and blast knocked me over, close call.  Few boys
                hit, few killed taking town.  Dug in on hill at night.

2/23    Fri.    Hulbert back.  Company moved into Eschfeld.  Germans
                nowhere in sight.  Squad got room in house.  Fires we
                started yesterday still burning.

2/24    Sat.    Got paid today.

2/25    Sun.    Loaded up on halftracks and rode back to Belgium to same
                town we were before but this time our and Perez's squad
                moved into little one room school house.

2/26    Mon.    Replacements coming in.

2/27    Tue.    Went to dentist downtown, had three fillings put in.

2/28    Wed.    Went to dentist again.  Leaving tomorrow.

3/1/45  Thur.   Pulled out at dawn.  Went back into Germany way past
                where we were before.  Hulbert and I dug in on hill near
                town of Prum.

3/2     Fri.    Got package from home and letter from Frances.  Weather
                cold and rainy.  88 hit C Company half-track.  Killed one
                wounded two.

3/3     Sat.    Jumped off today through Prum and way out to field.  Lined
                up behind tanks and jumped off.  Mortars heavy and I saw
                lots of dead GI's took hill and dug in.

3/4     Sun.    Loaded in halftracks and rode to out skirts of Budasheim.
                No opposition going through.  Sniper fire in steeple.  Let
                us go by and fired on tank.  Tanks MG steeple.  Went
                through woods.  Bazooka hit tank, saw driver with leg torn
                off.  Dug in outside of Budasheim.

3/5     Mon.    Rode halftrack to another jumpoff place and cleaned out
                more woods.

3/6     Tue.    Hulbert leg bothering him, evacuated.  Jumped off to town
                of Kyle river.  Hot town.  Sniper just missed me.  Mortars
                worked town over.  Sgt. Brunner and Sgt. Larkin hit.  We
                waded across river, cold and went to top of hill to objective.
                Were relieved at midnight by 4th Inf. Div.

3/7     Wed.    Got dry socks and stayed all day in town.  Jumped off at
                night in halftracks.  Hanson new platoon.  Sgt. Schmitz
                has squad.  Shot evacuated.  In convoy halftrack broke
                down, had to drop out.

3/8     Thur.   Ser. Co picked us up and took us back to 133rd Ord.  Ate
                dinner and supper there.  Eardly there with his halftrack too.
                Slept in back of 2 1/2 ton.

3/9     Fri.    Halftrack fixed.  Left Ord. went to Serv. Co.  Nobody knows
                where 13 Co. is.  Stayed all night with them in house.

3/10    Sat.    Followed Serv. Co. to another town.  Patrucy put us on
                guard.

3/11    Sun.    We attached ourselves to 21st.  Jumped off to town of Brohl
                on Rhine River.  Our squad dug in on bank and I fired at
                people across river.  Ost fired and killed one guy for sure.
                American artillery which shelling other side fell short and
                we caught Hell.  Moved out of town in half-tracks back to
                last town.

3/12    Mon.    Moved back to another town.  B Co. is rumored to be there
                soon.  Slept in German apartment house.

3/13    Tue.    Moved to B Co. billets.  Stayed all day.  B Co. came in at
                night.

3/14    Wed.    Cleaned up.

3/15    Thur.   Went to dentist.

3/16    Fri.    Went to dentist again.  Shoepacs hurting feet.

3/17    Sat.    Pulled out late at night.

3/18    Sun.    Reached town of Rockenhaeven.  Got billet in big home.

3/19    Mon.    Went out cleaning out towns.  Replacements coming in.

3/20    Tue.    Cleaned out woods and towns.

3/21    Wed.    Supposed to move out today but still here.

3/22    Thur.   Left today.  Rode to town called Kirchenheim bolanden.
                Took over homes belonging to German workers, homes nice.
                Our squad got downstairs one home, Alder's squad upstairs.

3/23    Fri.    Answered Frances' letter.  Rested all day in
                house.

3/24    Sat.    Nothing unusual today.

3/25    Sun.    Had Church services in open field.

3/26    Mon.    General Dager came to area to present medals.

3/27    Tue.    Supposed to leave today but stayed.

3/28    Wed.    Pulled out, rode across Rhine River.  Stopped at night
                and dug in field.  Have new Co.  C.O. and he's no good.

3/29    Thur.   Continued driving.

3/30    Fri.    Good Fri.  Weather cold.

****From 3/31/45 through 4/5/45, the dates are inaccurately recorded.
Consulting calendars of the period, I have presumed to correct them.
Nicole****

3/31    Sat.    Rode to hilltop and dig in.  Place windy as Hell.

4/1/45  Sun.    Hilltop windy, stayed all day.

4/2     Mon.    B Co. loaded up in halftracks and conveyed by colored boys.

4/3     Tue.    Rode to Frankfort, got loaded up and rode back.  Saw part
                of gas convoy that got ambushed.  Tracks and peeps(sic)
                smashed and colored drivers dead in them.  Pulled into
                field for night, rained.

4/4     Wed.    Left gas convoy and took off.

4/5     Thur.   Began driving.  Passed several German halftracks that had
                been ambushed and roads and fields covered with dead
                Germans.

4/6     Fri.    Reached Zhella Mellis.  Stayed in house one night.

4/7     Sat.    Road to place near Menigen, found roadblock, drew mortar
                fire.  German plane shot down by Mg. track.  One Inf. man,
                several tankers shot trying to take Meningen.  Bazookas fired
                but missed track.  Meningen big town, took many PW's put them
                in church.  Had billet in beer hall, beer still there.

4/8     Sun.    PW's taken from church loaded on trucks and taken away.
                Plenty of liquor found in basement.  Each track got 1 case
                plus what each man could sneak away.  Went back to Zhella
                Mellis and each squad had a house for billet.  We got a
                beautiful home.  I slept upstairs and everybody pretty tight
                by night.

4/9     Mon.    Rode off again.  Covered plenty ground.

4/10    Tue.    Still driving.  PW's coming by thousands.

4/11    Wed.    Still driving.

4/12    Thur.   Still driving.

4/13    Fri.    Rode to town of Kulmbach.  Squad took over several warehouses.

4/14    Sat.    Burned few vehicles, destroyed Bazookas.  Cleaned halftracks,
                got pretty well oiled up.

4/15    Sun.    Moved to new spot guarding Div. Tn.  Kuss back from hospital.

4/16    Mon.    Still here.  Capt. Reimer rumored on way back, hope so,
                Present C.O. is no good bastard.

4/16    Mon.    Still here.

4/17    Tue.    Had goddam field inspection for visiting officer.

4/18    Wed.    Still here

4/19    Thur.   Left today.  Rode way south.  Capt. Reimer back, sure glad
                to see him.  Took off early in the morning and rode thru
                Bayreuth.  Rode all day to town called Grafewohr.  Cleaned
                it out.  Took up roadblock near warehouses full of German ORD.
                Burned out Kraut tanks on flat cars.  R.R. torn up by air
                corps.  Found eggs had them for supper.

4/20    Fri.    Red Cross wagon in, mail in, got letter from Jimmie.

4/21    Sat.    Kuss, Siders and I tore seats out of R.R. car and put straw
                in to make nice billet.  Trotta threw grenade into Ammo. whse.
                and place has been burning and exploding for two days.

4/22    Sun.    Got rest pass today.  John Shram and I, men from B. Co.,
                to go.  Rode back Div. Tn.  Rode truck all day back to
                Meningen to little town called Bad Salzung.

4/23    Mon.    What a place!  Big hotel on edge of lake.  3 men to room,
                sheets, food from plates, girl waitresses, bath tubs, God,
                this is heaven.

4/24    Tue.    Got PX rations, new clothes, took bath, place has beautiful
                lounge, movie, coke bar.  What a place!

4/25    Wed.    Was tired, slept till dinner, slept till supper.  Buddy and
                I went to movies, etc.  What a place.

4/26    Thur.   Slight fire in chimney.  Red Cross girls sure nice here.
                Am eating good, this place is heaven!

4/27    Fri.    Left here today.  God I sure hated to leave.  Rode truck
                all day and got billet in XX Corps Hq.  Place is huge
                baby farm and swarming with big brass.

4/28    Sat.    Joined squad late in afternoon in town.

4/29    Sun.    Rode off to another town to guard Div. Tn.

4/30    Mon.    Rode off again.  Slept out in open.

5/1/45  Tue.    Saw 15 PW's shot, hooray.  Crossed border into Austria.
                Sign says 11th first outfit over.  Saw Stan Boyer.
                Snowed today.  Attacked town but Krauts kept us out.
                Smallwood hit in arm and chest by burp gun.

5/2     Wed.    Slept in barn, raining.

5/3     Thur.   Began driving.  Were driving toward Linz but encountered
                heavy resistance in Gramastetten, lot of casualties, some
                boys killed, quite a few wounded.  Stayed back with half-
                track, town burning good.

5/4     Fri.    88's firing into town hit vehicle area killing one driver
                and wounding 7, I got hit in face.  Nerves shot, can't
                keep this up, my luck running out.  Dug in position over
                looking Linz, Austria.

5/5     Sat.    Rode mounted into Linz.  People lined up cheering, clapping,
                throwing flowers.  Took over bridge right on Danube, guarded
                it.  Were relieved in afternoon by 65th Div.  Rode back to
                another town and got half house for billet.  I got bed
                upstairs.  Had champagne, everbody celebrating.

5/6     Sun.    Stayed in all day.  Rumors that war ending.

5/7     Mon.    Cleaned up good.  Wrote and got letters.

5/8     Tue.    Rode to field.  Had to get up before midnight and load up.
                VE declared at one minute past 12.  Rode to field near
                Freistadt.

5/9     Wed.    We are on road block.  Tanks and us to prevent Germans
                from going to Linz.  Saw German kill himself with pistol.
                Got eggs and French chocolate from car.

5/10    Thur.   Have billet in barn, guard roads all day.  Area is full of
                German PW's.

5/11    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

5/12    Sat.    Nothing unusual.

5/13    Sun.    Nothing unusual.

5/14    Mon.    Nothing unusual.

5/15    Tue.    Saw Russian soldiers.  Went up to castle near here.

5/16    Wed     Pulled out back to field.

5/17    Thur.   Slept out.

5/18    Fri.    Stayed in field.

5/19    Sat.    Capt. Reimer gone, hurt himself.

5/20    Sun.    Moved to field outside town of Aigen, Austria.

5/21    Mon.    Still in field.  Sent box home, got duffle bags back.

5/22    Tue.    Still here.  Moving in Tomorrow.

5/23    Wed.    Moved into billets.  We got two rooms in house.

5/24    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

5/25    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

5/26    Sat.    Nothing unusual.

5/27    Sun.    Went to Mass in beautiful church.

5/28    Mon.    Nothin unusual.

5/29    Tue.    Calisthentics and Concurrent training started again.

5/30    Wed.    Nothing unusual.

5/31    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

6/1/45  Fri.    Nothing unusual.

6/2     Sat.    Went to confession.

6/3     Sun.    Went to Mass.

6/4     Mon.     On KP today.

6/5     Tue     Rumored we are leaving soon. Sgt. Brunner back.

6/6     Wed.    Moving tomorrow. Loaded up halftrack.

6/7     Thur.   Moved out and rode longway to outskirts of Reid.
                Had to pitch pup tents again.  I pitched with Hulbert.

6/8     Fri.    Hot as hell.  Major Sandler out here inspecting.  Big
                inspection tomorrow.

6/9     Sat.    C.O. says we move in next week.  Rain, rain, rain, area
                sea of mud.  Red Cross club near by.

6/10    Sun.    Rain soaked thru bedroll, stayed in bed all day.

6/11    Mon.    More rain.

6/12    Tue.    More rain.

6/13    Wed.    Finally moved out and into billets.  Got apartment houses and
                our squadron top floor.

6/14    Thur.   Reveille and drill back in again.

6/15    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

6/16    Sat.    Inspection but it was snap.

6/17    Sun.    Went to Mass.  Place is nice church.

6/18    Mon.    Drill etc.

6/19    Tue.    Nothing unusual.

6/20    Wed.    Nothing unusual.

6/21    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

6/22    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

6/23    Sat.    Inspection, and games in afternoon.

6/24    Sun.    Mass again.  Went to swimming pool in afternoon.

6/25    Mon.    Nothing unusual.

6/26    Tue.    Nothing unusual.

6/27    Wed.    Nothng  unusual.

6/28    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

6/29    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

6/30    Sat.    Smallwood, Spain, Chevalier back.  Ost, and Schmitz have left
                for states to be discharged.

7/1/45  Sun.    Mass.  Father Galvin in England on furlough.

7/2     Mon.    Drill.

7/3     Tue.    Orientation and drill.

7/4     Wed.    Rained like hell so athletic events called off.  Flopped it
                up in barracks all day.

7/5     Thur.   Yesterday's sports events played today.

7/6     Fri.    Nothing unusual.

7/7     Sat.    Inspection.

7/8     Sun.    Father Galvin in England.

7/9     Mon.    Went out on road block.

7/10    Tue.    Kuss, Falkner and Smallwood leaving for states.  Sure sad to
                see them go.

7/11    Wed.    Nothing unusual.

7/12    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

7/13    Fri.    Nothing unusual except letter from Frances.

7/14    Sat.    Inspection.

7/15    Sun.    Went to church.  Then up to swimming pool.

7/16    Mon.    Nothing unusual.

7/17    Tue.    Nothing unusual.

7/18    Wed.    Nothing unusual.

7/19    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

7/20    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

7/21    Sat.    Inspection.

7/22    Sun.    Nothing unusual.

7/23    Mon.    Nothing unusual.

7/24    Tue.    Nothing unusual.

7/25    Wed.    Nothing unusual.

7/26    Thur.   Nothing unusual.

7/27    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

7/28    Sat.    Nothing unusual.

7/29    Sun.    Rumor that we are leaving soon for Ebensee to guard PW's.

7/30    Mon.    Went to movies at night.  Began packing.

7/31    Tue.    Nothing unusual.

8/1/45  Wed.    Tore beds down, got all packed.  We are leaving tomorrow
                morning.

8/2     Thur.   Left Ried early in morning and rode to Ebensee, Austria.
                Releived(sic) FA at guard on 15,000 PW's.  Got 2nd relief.
                Mahalko and I on tower 3.

8/3     Fri.    Guard again today.  Lots of business trading watches.

8/4     Sat.    Guard, also chased PW's down at PW motor pool.

8/5     Sun.    Rode truck down to Ebensee for Mass.

8/6     Mon.    Guard

8/7     Tue.    Guard

8/8     Wed.    Guard

8/9     Thur.   Guard

8/10    Fri.    Lots of talk about atomic bomb on radio.

8/11    Sat.    Fellows all talking of atomic bomb and listening to radio.

8/12    Sun.    Levine and I went to Grunden on pass and had hell of good
                time.  Rode back on boat with Anderson and Levak and Driscoll.
                Rode to top of Mt. on cable car.

8/13    Mon.    Rumors running wild.  Atomic bomb really something.  Waiting
                for surrender.

8/14    Tue.    Heard on guard that Japs had accepted peace.

8/15    Wed.    We are leaving here soon.

8/16    Thur.   Guard taken over by 26 Inf. Div.

8/17    Fri.    Leaving here tomorrow.

8/18    Sat.    At Ebensee Gen. Dager gave us talk and we mounted trucks
                and rode to Stary Plzenec, Czechoslovakia.  Am now attached
                to 8th Arm'd Div.

8/19    Sun.    Am billeted in schoolhouse.

8/20    Mon.    Was assigned to squad.

8/21    Tue.    Nothing unusual.

8/22    Wed.    Was assigned to go on outpost but if fell thru.

8/23    Thur.   Left C Co. and joined B Co. in Rokycany.  Am in 4th Platoon.

8/24    Fri.    Spent day unpacking and getting straightened around.

8/25    Sat.    Went out on detail to tear down PW stockade.

8/26    Sun.    Flopped it up all day.

8/27    Mon.    Started school in machine shop.

8/28    Tue.    School at machine shop in morning and athletics all
                afternoon.

8/29    Wed.    School and athletics.

8/30    Thur.   School and athletics.

8/31    Fri.    Got paid and then went out to outpost on edge of town.

9/1/45  Sat.    On guard.

9/2     Sun.    On guard.

9/3     Mon.    Got mail from home.

9/4     Tue.    On guard.

9/5     Wed.    On guard.

9/6     Thur.   On guard.

9/7     Fri.    Moved back to quarters as we are leaving tomorrow.

9/8     Sat.    Left Rokycany, rode trucks to Pilsen, loaded on to box
                cars and rode. off.

9/9     Sun.    Arrived at town in Germany and was assigned to C. Co.
                329 Inf. Regt. 83rd Inf.  Spent day getting settled.

9/10    Mon.    On guard.

9/11    Tue.    This outfit has training schedule.  Played ball in
                afternoon.

9/12    Wed.    Goofed off all day.  Stayed in room and slept.

9/13    Thur.   Went on sick call.

9/14    Fri.    On KP in kitchen.

9/15    Sat.    On guard.

9/16    Sun.    Got off guard at night, went straight to bed.

9/17    Mon.    Nothing unusual.

9/18    Tue.    Left C Company today and moved to Deggendorf to where
                AntiTank Co. is located in Hotel.

9/19    Wed.    Got PX rations today.  Pull 3 hrs on, 9 hrs off.
                Billets are good, good deall(sic) all around.

9/20    Thur.   Went to USO show in Passau.

9/21    Fri.    On guard two times.

9/22    Sat.    Washed few clothes.

9/23    Sun.    Guard.  Went to movies.

9/24    Mon.    More guard.

9/25    Tue.    More guard.

9/26    Wed.    PX rations today, got two weeks rations today.

9/27    Thur.   Guard.

9/28    Fri.    Guard.

9/29    Sat.    Guard.

9/30    Sun.    Guard.

10/1/45 Mon.    Went to Platting and saw Blithe Spirit USO show.
                Very good.

10/2    Tue.    Got break today, no guard.

10/3    Wed.    Raid in town today.

10/4    Thur.   Still off.

10/5    Fri.    Guard.

10/6    Sat.    Nothing unusual today.

10/7    Sun.    On guard, tired.

10/8    Mon.    Nothing unusual today.

10/9    Tue.    Celebrated with two beers at non-coms club.

10/10   Wed.    Nothing unusual.

10/11   Thur.   PX rations today.

10/12   Fri.    Went to show at night.

10/13   Sat.    Had ice cream at parlor.  On Guard.  Weather cold.

10/14   Sun.    Gen. Truscott of 3rd Army came through this morning.
                Went to show in afternoon.

10/15   Mon.    Guard.  Had ice cream at parlor.

10/16   Tue.    Got letters from home.

10/17   Wed.    Left Deggendorf, rode to Platting, boarded train to
                Regensberg, slept in big hall.

10/18   Thur.   Am in Engineers, got assigned to A Co.  Rode trucks to
                lager at Grafenwohr.  Was through this town six months
                ago.

10/19   Fri.    Nemic and I in same room together.

10/20   Sat.    Nemic, Andy, and I went down town for beers and look
                around in afternoon.  Went to show at night, had vaudeville.

10/21   Sun.    Slept most all day.

10/22   Mon.    Went out on job to PW cages.  Sat around fire all day.

10/23   Tue.    Repetition of yesterday.  Went to show-piss poor war picture.

10/24   Wed.    Came in at noon for dental inspection.

10/25   Thur.   Guard.

10/26   Fri.    Was on prison chaser.

10/27   Sat.    Went to work for half day.  Came in at noon, read all
                afternoon.  Went to show at night with Nemic, had good
                magic show.

10/28   Sun.    Went walking around camp with Nemic, took some pictures.

10/29   Mon.    Guard.

10/30   Tue.    Went on cp(?) guard at 7:00.

10/31   Wed.    Stayed in all day.  Day was quiet.  Took shower, read.

11/1/45 Thur.   Guard.

11/2    Fri.    Guard.

11/3    Sat.    Off at noon, went to library, read in afternoon.

11/4    Sun.    Got paid today.

11/5    Mon.    Guard.

11/6    Tue.    Guard.

11/7    Wed.    Guard.

11/8    Thur.   Came in early, saw movies.

11/9    Fri.    Nothing unusual.

11/10   Sat.    Have pass to Paris, leaving tomorrow.

11/11   Sun.    Left for Paris after dinner.  Rode to Regensberg, got
                orders, rode to Munich.

11/12   Mon.    Left Munich 1:30AM.  Woke up in morning, had dinner in
                Karlsruhe, rode all day.

11/13   Tue.    Reached Gare d'Lest****sic****station at 8.  Rode bus to
                bureau and got assigned to Hotel Bayard.  Had breakfast,
                Boddeker and I went roaming around.  Went to GI night
                club in Pigalle.

11/14   Wed.    Went on sight seeing tour of Paris.  Saw Arch of Triumph,
                Eiffel Tower, Invalides, Notre Dame, Louvre, Place de la
                Concorde.  Nice tour.  At night Boddeker, Jay, Rob and I
                went to GI night club and raised hell.

11/15   Thur.   Went to Rainbow Corner Red Cross club and Ice Cream Parlor.

11/16   Fri.    Spent day at R.C.

11/17   Sat.    Went on tour of Versailles, very interesting.

11/18   Sun.    Went to high mass at Notre Dame.

11/19   Mon.    Bought PX rations.  Bought bracelets and perfume and sent
                them to Frances.

11/20   Tue.    Left at 7:30 from Gare de l'est, slept on luggage rack.

11/21   Wed.    Rode all day, reached Munich late.  Joe and I got room
                and slept at terminal.

11/22   Thur.   Thanksgiving dinner at terminal.  Caught train at 6:40 for
                Regensburg.  Got back to Regt. Hq. and found us transferred
                to 4th Arm'd Div.  Crossed us off list, outfit moves
                tomorrow.  Slept in attic at headquarters.

11/23   Fri.    Loaded 40 and 8's and took off for Camp Boston, France.

11/24/45Sat.    Road all day.

****Diary entries end here. Nicole****

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 23:37:26 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Jim, your post on reconciliation is quite *on topic* in my book.

I think it's precisely what leads one to believe there's hope for
 the human race, just as haunting as it is to see younger generations
 revved up on hate of one sort or another. The tides come and go,
and we have to just hope that peace prevails...

--- Jim Brady

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Feb 1995 to 4 Feb 1995
***********************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 4 Feb 1995 to 5 Feb 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 30 messages totalling 937 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Marine Corps Chronolog (2)
  2. WANT: MAP INFORMATION
  3. ? NATIVE AMERICANS DUR
  4. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (5)
  5. Ascension Island (3)
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945 (2)
  7. Japan/German and other Nukes
  8. Enola Gay Exhibit (2)
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-FEB-1945
 10. WEAP: Bismark (3)
 11. WEAP: RE: Bismark
 12. ENOLA GAY
 13. Malmedy Massacre
 14. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC (3)
 15. Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)
 16. Xerox Copy
 17. USMC Chronology 5Feb45

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 00:11:52 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Marine Corps Chronolog

In the first months of 1945, Marines were quite busy with Iwo Jima, Okinawa,
flying from carriers, and finally occupying both Japan and North China. I would
be willing to enter daily what Marines were doing in the Pacific 50 years ago,
but only if there is enough interest in the topic. Please advise. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:19:04 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marine Corps Chronolog

This devil dog would love to read it Ben (the USMC chronology) if you
would post it.

When I get back from Alaska in a week I'll post a letter that my Dad
wrote about Iwo Jima.  He was on a transport that landed the first waves.

Aloha,  Jim

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 01:00:23 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: WANT: MAP INFORMATION

I suggest that you refer to the two-volume West Point Atlas by BGen Esposito.
It may be out of print, but available at libraries. ben frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 02:59:09 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: ? NATIVE AMERICANS DUR

Tiffany, I suggest you read Doris Paul's "Navajo Code Talkers," which tells the
story of Navajos who were recruited by the Marine Corps to serve in the
Pacific, communicating in their own language over voice circuits. As far as is
know, the Japanese were never able to understand the Navajo Marines. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 06:24:36 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <df@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

I think it was fairly standard procedure to shoot down an enemy pilot
over his home grounds, on the logical theory that if you let him
parachute to safety, he might kill you tomorrow. The Japanese strafed at
least two AVG pilots in their parachutes over Rangoon, and perhaps
another (he never got out of the cockpit, so it is impossibly to be sure
about this).

As to whether Americans followed this practice, my local librarian once
told me of his introduction to combat, on a convoy going out to the
Pacific which was attacked by Japanese fighters, perhaps suicide planes,
I don't know; but he clearly saw, and vividly retold, how a P-38 pilot
killed a parachuting Japanese. He was particularly upset because like all
boys of the era he had grown up on stories of chivalry over the lines in
France.

Like so much in war, revenge "justifies" what was formerly unthinkable.
One of the AVG pilots strafed over Rangoon, went on to say:  "Another
time, I got one of those little bastards framed in silk . . .  but that's
another story." Which he wouldn't tell. (I guess I'll delete his name.)

                 - Dan    <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 05:46:10 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <bwroblew@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Terrence Lindell wrote:

> On Feb. 2 Bruno Wroblewski posted a message about Ascension Island, asking
> about the sorts of aircraft that passed through their, supplies for the
> garrison, etc.
>
> I have access to the National Air & Space Museum archival videodisc that
> contains the USAF WWII Overseas photo collection (about 50,000 images).  I
> looked up what it had on Ascension Island and found about 120 images.  I
> know nothing about the numbers of aircraft that passed through there, but
> I found images of the following a/c types:  P-39, B-25, C-47, C-54, B-17,
> and B-26.
>
> The island looked pretty bleak during WWII.  What I found most interesting
> was a section of photos on agriculture.  There were apparently extensive
> facilities, including a hydroponics lab, to raise food for the troops
> stationed there.
>
> Terry Lindell
> Department of History
> Wartburg College
> Waverly, Iowa  50677
> lindell@wartburg.edu

>

Thank you for your information. BTW, when I was there in the 1950's
it STILL looked rather bleak :)
This might have had some bearing on another story which I did not
include in my original post.
I was told that the oppresive atmosphere on the island resulted in
some personell being evacuated due to mental problems. No idea how
much truth in this story.

        Bruno

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:45:07 -0500
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, John Riegsecker wrote:

> >The Homefront
> >-------------
> >Senators Delay Promotions - The Senate has approved the promotion of three
> >Army officers to the rank of lieutenant general and 28 to major generals
> >but hold up for a week the promotion of 78 colonels to brigadier generals
> >in order to investigate the case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt, second son of
> >the President and one of those up for advancement.
>
> Don't leave us hanging. What is (was) the "case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt"?

I imagine it was just politics (what's new?). Roosevelt was up for promotion
to brigadier and when it came before the Senate they probably decided to
question whether he really "deserved" the promotion or whether it was being
awarded because of his connections. When it says "case" (and this is the
exact wording from my source) I think they are not talking about any type of
legal case but rather just his situation in general. At least this is what I
think; anyone else know any particulars? Maybe upcoming articles will shed
new light. I'll pay special attention to this and will make sure I include
any new updates.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 09:23:55 -0500
From:    Michael Andrew Turton <turtom@RPI.EDU>
Subject: Japan/German and other Nukes

        Henry, you should add Taiwan to the list of nuke nations.
Taiwan got the same deal the israelis did in the '80s: the U.S. looked
the other way whilst they nicked our A-bomb secrets.  They just didn't
get the publicity.  The story is told in David Kaplan's _Fires of the
Dragon_, a history of Taiwan gov't surveillance and espionage activities
in the United States.  The island is said to possess weapons it could
assemble on short notice.

Mike Turton
turtom@rpi.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:25:22 -0600
From:    Terrance Lewis <tlewis@NEW-ORLEANS.NEOSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

FYI
For those with access but who also missed it:

The Sunday New York Times has an article on this in the "Week In Review"
section (I haven't had a chance to read it yet).

"T"
tlewis@new-orleans.Neosoft.com
Terrance L. Lewis, PhD
History Program
Southern University at New Orleans

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:49:52 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>> . . .  In his book "The First
>> and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
>> bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
>> wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
>> knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
>> Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this. . . .
>
>Is there anyone on the Allied side that can confirm that this was done?

I can't comment on Pilots in parachutes but I have talked with many Germans
who were young adults in late '44 and '45 who said movement in daylight was
fraught with danger. US Fighters straffed anything that moved - Horses,
dogs, children - Anything. The lady I most remember was an employee of
mine, she had been about 14 and had to ride her bike from tree to tree,
stop and look for fighters on the way to school & the way home. This has
much to do with why Pilots shot down over Germany were stoned and
pitchforked by the populace - the German soldiers saved a lot of pilots
from a summary ending!

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:50:01 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

I spent a year in Japan in 1953, as a boy - even then the people were
always polite and considerate (and unsure of us). We lived "on the economy"
- ie not in an Army compound - by the time we left a year later we had made
good friends throughout the neighborhood and were accepted. Our cultures
are quite different, but we are all people. The Japanese, maybe more than
the Germans even , were victimized by the political rulers who were
misguided in their attempts to promote Japans growth. The people themselves
are wonderful, some of the "guided thinking" promulgated by their system is
just as dumb as the same junk pushed here by various American spin artists.
Japan gains nothing by Americas economic decline - we are a huge
customer... You take care of your valued customers if you want to keep them
- they are a bit scared of us because they know of our ability to
economically overwhelm smaller countries. They want to remain soveriegn in
their own country.
 The bomb was necessary as it put an end (barely it would seem from Mike
Yaklovichs [sp?] postings) to the suffering for the multitudes at the cost
of a lot of suffering for those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - I have
no problem feeling compassion for those people without any remorse or
apology for the use of the A-Bomb.


>I would like to add a bit to the posting of Jaimie Crafton:
>
>I have Japanese friend who I have known since 1963.  His family is from
>Hiroshima and in 1970 I visited his family there.  He and the other
>members of his family were staying at the family country home but his
>father was in the downtown area when the bomb was dropped.  He survived
>and suffered only a cut across his upper lip which left a (not very
>noticable) scar.
>
>The father told me that he didn't mind the scar since before the women
>chased after him; once he had it they stopped.
>
>Incidently, his wife, my friend's mother, once she found I was single,
>wanted to marry me off to one of the eligible women employees of their
>company.
>
>Perhaps all this was because I was a friend of their son, but I thought
>their cordiality was not only inbred but sincere.

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:00:26 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-FEB-1945

On 06-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st and 3rd Army sectors, the offensive to
break through the defences of the Siegfried Line continues. The French 1st
Army begins the final phase of operations against the Colmar pocket. In the
XXI Corps sector, the 3rd Division takes the old fortress of Neuf-Brisach.
Elements of the French 2nd Armoured Division advance south between the
Rhine-Rhone Canal and the Rhine River towards the French I Corps. The 75th
Division reaches the canal south of Neuf-Brisach and the U.S. 12th Armoured
Division, with the French 5th Armoured Division, eliminates the pockets cut
off in the Vosges. Units of the 2nd Moroccan Division cross the river Ill
in the Meyenheim-Reguisheim area and advance east of the Rhine Canal to
take Hirtzfelden. The 9th Colonial Division completes the capture of
Ensisheim and sends some units toward Baldersheim, north of Mulhouse. The
4th Moroccan Motorized Division blocks the escape routes from the Vosges,
where all organized resistance has come to an end.

Eastern Front - In East Prussia, fighting continues in the cities of Poznan
and Budapest, which is still strongly defended by the Germans.

Philippines - The Japanese positions at Munoz, which are surrounded,
undergo heavy air and artillery bombardment. The XIV Corps mops up in the
northern part of Manila. The 11th Division digs in on the outskirts of
Manila.

The Homefront
-------------
Two Spies On Trial - William Curtis Colepaugh and Erich Gimpel plead not
guilty when arrigned on espionage charges before a military commision on
Governors Island, N.Y. Their trial proceeds in secret.

Williams Denies He's Communist - Aubrey Williams, appearing before the
Senate Agriculture Commission in Washington in connection with his
nomination to be Administrator of Rural Electrification, has denied he has
ever been a Communist or a member of any subversive organization.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:23:38 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <Burt_Knight.ZIFF-DAVIS%LNGATE@ZCIAS1.ZIFF.COM>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

A bit o' AAF Doggerel about Ascension (and about All I can add to the current
discussion)
'If I don't hit Ascension,
My Wife gets a pension.'

The location of the island made it essential to the 'southern' route foir
aircraft ferrying. RL Scott comments about the island in 'God is my Co-pilot'.
In the 'Franconia Incident', it was a US B24 from Ascension that attacked the
U-Boat which was trying to rescue survivors from the Franconia.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:28:37 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <Burt_Knight.ZIFF-DAVIS%LNGATE@ZCIAS1.ZIFF.COM>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Shooting of downed or parachuting pilots was done by all sides but not in any
degree of regularity.   Galland talks about Goering 'asking' if pilots would
object to such an order and Galland strenously did. JE Johnson did note one
incident, where a Luftwaffe pilot had attacked a man in a parachute. Johnson
then shot down the German plane and as the German tried to bail out, shot and
'Hammered the bastard back into his seat.' A Russian pilot supposedly landed
his aircraft and physically strangled a German pilot whose plane he had just
shot down.  When tempers are up, anything can happen.

It does make sense to ensure that a trained pilot doesn't fight again but it's
not 'chivalrous' but then most of the truths about air combat are quite
different from the myths. The Red Baron focused on two seaters because they
could do the most harm in the long run as spotters and intelligence gathering
machines, not exactly chivalrous behaviour. Hartman's trick was to get in so
close to the other side that he couldn't miss, usually by sneaking up on a
straggler.  If you read Galland and JE Johnson, you'll see a lot of fights
against the stragglers. Usually the stragglers were the least experienced
pilots in a unit, the 'sportsmen' who tried to fight a chivalrous war and died
fast, leaving the 'bastards' to carry on the fight.

BTW- New pilots tended to get the worst aircraft and least experienced
mechanics. If they survived their first few combats, they started getting
better equipment and support.  It's not nice and it's not fair but it's a piece
of reality.  Why endanger a good ship with an idiot who didn't know how to keep
it (or himself) in one piece.  I learned early on to not get close to an FNG
until they'd survived a month.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:45:22 -0500
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: WEAP: Bismark

I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then
decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
receive any type of censure for doing this?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:02:29 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <bwroblew@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, Burt Knight wrote:

> A bit o' AAF Doggerel about Ascension (and about All I can add to the current
> discussion)
> 'If I don't hit Ascension,
> My Wife gets a pension.'
>
> The location of the island made it essential to the 'southern' route foir
> aircraft ferrying. RL Scott comments about the island in 'God is my Co-pilot'.
> In the 'Franconia Incident', it was a US B24 from Ascension that attacked the
> U-Boat which was trying to rescue survivors from the Franconia.
>

>From the story I heard about the end of the runway crashes, I suppose the
above would apply when you hit Ascension as well.

To comment on the former post describing pictures of agricultural activities
on Ascension:- they were rather restricted.
I don't remember seeing hydroponic installations, but I do recall farming
activities. Ascension is a desert island. The soil is so dry that in order
to obtain electrical grounding for our radar installation it was necessary
to lay a copper cable from the installation to the ocean and to attach it
to a rod beyond the low tide line.
The exception to this was the top of the extinct volcano where  the water
supply was collected. Because of the low level clouds bathing it, the top
was perpetually green. That's where the farm was located. While it may
have provided a limited supply of food for the small British colony,
there was no way for it to supply the Americans. My question on how the
Americans brought in fuel and supplies still needs clarification.

        Bruno

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 12:28:53 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

You wrote:

>
>On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, John Riegsecker wrote:
>
>> >The Homefront
>> >-------------
>> >Senators Delay Promotions - The Senate has approved the promotion of
three
>> >Army officers to the rank of lieutenant general and 28 to major
generals
>> >but hold up for a week the promotion of 78 colonels to brigadier
generals
>> >in order to investigate the case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt, second
son of
>> >the President and one of those up for advancement.
>>
>> Don't leave us hanging. What is (was) the "case of Col. Elliott
Roosevelt"?
>
>I imagine it was just politics (what's new?). Roosevelt was up for
promotion
>to brigadier and when it came before the Senate they probably decided
to
>question whether he really "deserved" the promotion or whether it was
being
>awarded because of his connections. When it says "case" (and this is
the
>exact wording from my source) I think they are not talking about any
type of
>legal case but rather just his situation in general. At least this is
what I
>think; anyone else know any particulars? Maybe upcoming articles will
shed
>new light. I'll pay special attention to this and will make sure I
include
>any new updates.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
>Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
In 1945, the Senate was controlled by the Republican party, while
Roosevelt was, of course, a Democrat.  Just look at how the current
congress wants to investigate every rumor about Pres. Clinton (or how
the prior Democratic congresses went after Bush & Reagan) nothing
changes much in partison politics.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:23:33 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

>
> I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
> was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
> how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then
> decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
> go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
> light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
> receive any type of censure for doing this?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
> Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
I as well have bee disgusted by this action for many years. Dorschester
was warned that a u-boat had been spotted near the site (either U.73 or
U.556 under Wohlfahrt) but that was unfounded. And even if the cruiser
was in such a danger (which it was not, with several destroyers all
around it) then why not throw something into  the sea to aid the men?
Life rafts come to mind. The rescue operation would not have taken more
than one or two hours more to complete and the nearby destroyers surely
could have suppressed any attacking u-boat during that time.

The last surviors were 3 men found on a raft by a U-boat as I recall. So
clearly many men could have been saved if rafts had been issued to them
or something like that.

107 survived I think and several hundred made it into the water.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:09:00 +10
From:    David Murnain <murnaind@DRAKEN.BHPESE.OZ.AU>
Subject: WEAP: RE: Bismark

>I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
>was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
>how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then


>decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
>go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
>light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
>receive any type of censure for doing this?

  HMS Dorsetshire was compelled to leave the area due to reports of U-boats.
(Which were probably false alarms, but there were u-boats headed that way.)
The Royal Navy did what it could to rescue survivors, but they were
low on fuel, without escorts in waters in which submarines had been reported.
The captain would have been more likely to have been critisised if he had
lost his own ship (and lives of his crew) while rescuing German seamen.

I have not seen the show, but if it gave the impression that the RN was overly
callous to the survivors, maybe it did not mention the manner in which
survivors were treated after they had been brought aboard the cruiser. I think
that maybe the show either - 1. didn't have time to elaborate, and therefore
left the situation a ltlle ambiguous, or 2. was playing for a bit of emotional
content.









-------------------------------------------------------
David Murnain                           |"What is good, and what
murnaind@draken.itntl.bhp.com.au|is not good, Phaedrus.?
BHP Information Technology       |Need we ask others to tell us
Newcastle, Australia                  |these things."

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:43:15 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY

I've been silent about this entire thing-sat back and watched from the
sidelines to sorta form a stronget opinion.  BTW--a High school history
teacher told me Enola Gay Tibbets lived in my hometown--Quincy, IL.
Maybe Tibbets was from there as well.  I forget the details.

What bothers me about the outcry regarding the Smithsonian dumping the
display is the cry of political pressure compromising historical
accuracy.  Well--if they were publishing a book then so what--let them
publish it> BUT--this is a historical artifact of priceless value.
People are forgetting a few things--the crew of the Gay wasn;t sure
they'd even survuve the blast or shock waves.  Theirs was a very
dangerous and brave smission they performed for they knew they might
have been vapourized in a moment much like their target.  The difference
between this display and a book is that this is the "official" U.S.
Government display.  Both sides were slaughtering each other and this
was seen as a quick and efficient way to stop the slaughter.  The people
crying this is an outrage against truth in history are probably also
crying that any war is immoral.

I see this entire debate in the context of the historians from the 50's
and 60's--the intellectual basis of the 60's peace movement now coming
into power positions and revising history with their slant.  Good job
VFW and Am Legion for fighting back.  Letting a travesty of the memory
of both sides of the war like they planned occur would be not only
misleading but corrupting.  This could be seen as another addition to
the long list of things that Oliver Stone likes to make movies about.
Yes--we were racist but everyone was racist.  Hell--even a Bigs Bunny
cartoon has been pulled from rentals for him giving popsiclegrenades to
Japanese soldiers.  It will be those of us who need to pick up the flag
of the Vets as they depart to insure more travesties like this don;t
occur.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:46:57 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

British people were strafed and shot at by German aircraft, especially
during 1940 - 1941.
Yet, there is not one documented case of British civilians ever murdering
any German aircrew shot down there.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:20:52 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: Malmedy Massacre

Hello, Alex!
The trial of the Malmedy Massacre war criminals stirred up considerable
controversy when it was held, as credible allegations were made that
both physical and psychological intimidation was used to extort confessions
from some defendants.  Then-freshman Senator Joe McCarthy actually began
his rise to fame by coming to their defense.
Nevertheless. the SS men were convicted, although all had their sentences
eventually reduced or commuted.  I have never seen any allegations that
the Malmedy Massacre (and other killings of American POWs and local
civilians) did not take place,or were anything other than war crimes.
Even the rather gullible John Toland, who tends to believe whatever his
interviewees tell him, did not accept the excuses offered by Jochen Peiper
and others for the Malmedy killings.
I have received but not yet read Dupuy's book. Now I'm going to look at
his section on Malmedy!
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us






On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Alex Bielakowski wrote:

>      I have just started reading Trevor Dupuy's _Hitler's Last Gamble:
> The Battle of the Bulge_ and I have come across something that I never
> heard of before.  According to Dupuy, the facts of the Malmedy Massacre
> and the subsequent trial are both less than clear as to whether or not
> the Nazis actually murdered the men in cold blood or whether many were
> killed in battle or while trying to escape.  Dupuy goes on to say that
> the men who were sentenced may have been railroaded.  I have never known
> Dupuy to be a revisionist, but there's always a first time.  Does any-
> body know anything more about the Massacre or the trial which can
> shed some light on whether or not Dupuy was in fact correct?
>
> Alex Bielakowski
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 17:48:33 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

On Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:23:33 +0000 Gudmundur Helgason said:
>>
>I as well have bee disgusted by this action for many years. Dorschester
>was warned that a u-boat had been spotted near the site (either U.73 or
>U.556 under Wohlfahrt) but that was unfounded. And even if the cruiser
>was in such a danger (which it was not, with several destroyers all
>around it) then why not throw something into  the sea to aid the men?
>Life rafts come to mind. The rescue operation would not have taken more
>than one or two hours more to complete and the nearby destroyers surely
>could have suppressed any attacking u-boat during that time.
>
>The last surviors were 3 men found on a raft by a U-boat as I recall. So
>clearly many men could have been saved if rafts had been issued to them
>or something like that.
>
>107 survived I think and several hundred made it into the water.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
>Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
>220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
>ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I, too, am a little disturbed by the abandonment of Germans by British
warships.  I believe, for example, that the raider Atlantis and its crew
were similarly treated.  And then there was the general practice of the
Brits attacking rescue missions at sea by air.  The Americans did this too
on several occassions.
   Elseware on this discussion group, the topic of air chivalry, its myth,
and the hatred that raged in the skies is in progress.  It is clear from
various personal accounts that it didn't take long for the chivalry in the
sky to end.  Why should this not be the case at sea?
   It was a total war in which anything went.  While the crewman of this
or that ship might not have suffered directly given the nature of the war,
their friends and relatives probably did.  And, in this case, it is likely
that the British fleet had often encountered U-boats and took on a philosophy
of better safe than sorry.
   In the end, and this is something the "revisionists" most of all tend to
forget, the Second World War was a tremondously horrible conflict in which
the most inhuman acts of cruelty became almost common.  Not to blame any
particular person, but the war dragged on and the suffering became all but
inbearable.  That is why I think there should be little question about using
the atomic bomb.  Those revisionists seem to think that the bomb was the
only act of excessive violence and cruelty in the entire war.  Yet it was
merely the most dramatic example.
    I wish that war could be chivalrous but it isn't and rarely has been.
That's life.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:22:11 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Ben...
        Like you, my most vivid memories of marching songs are the ribald
ones.  :-)
There's something about a collection of sturdy young men in groups -- military
ones in particular -- that seems to bring out the vulgar. Usually nothing
more serious than high-spirits. Often, this prediliction produced some quite
witty lyrics, however bawdy.
        That tune COLONEL BOGIE which was adapted to become the theme of the
movie BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI was a popular marching song by British and
Commonwealth troops.  It's more usual title was (forgive me) BOLLOCKS!
        "Ber-berp -- and the same to you!" etcetera, a long song of verses
expressing obscene opionions of general, officers, and n.c.o.
        There was another version of it, quite early in WW2, the first line
of which was to the effect that -- "Hitler, has only got one ball,
                                   "Goebbels, he has none at all...."

Sorry about that.  :-)


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:33:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Ben...
        The First World War seems to have been far more productive of
marching songs than was the Second World War.
        THERE'S A LONG, LONG TRAIL A WINDING..."
        PACK UP YOUR TROUBLES IN YOUR OWN KIT-BAG (and smile, smile, smile...)
        ROSES ARE BLOOMING IN PICARDY
        KEEP THE HOME FIRES BURNING

Whenevr I hear any of them sung, to this day, I feel profound melancholy.
They sound so sad, even though they were long before my own war, the words
of those songs echo the sadness, the self-knowledge of almost certain death,
od the men who marched off to Flanders singing those words.
        OVER THERE!  THE YANKS ARE COMING... (an Irving Berlin song) still
has the ability to evoke similar ffelings for many Americans, I think.

There were several other WWOne songs that had a re-birth as marching songs
in the Second World War. IN a couple of years, some newer songs were added...
        BLESS 'EM ALL (the long and the short and the tall...)
These songs in turn were parodied. The RAF version went something like
this...
        "They say there's an aircraft just leaving the Rhine,
        "Bound for old Blighty's shore,
        "With seven brave airmen all gallant and fine
        " -- s**t scared and down on the floor..."


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:41:05 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Ben...
        You've set me off. :-)
        Just one more.

Some weeks ago, I was walking my dog on the beach. I caught up with an
'older' man with walking stick and dog. He (the man) was whistling to
himself, the tune of PLEASE COME BACK TO THE RED RIVER VALLEY...

I had to say it.... "Excuse me, sir -- Airborne?"

He broke into a big smile, "Yes, but how...?"  I whistled a few bars,
too.  He laughed aloud, nodded, and went on his way, whistling louder.

Forsome reason, THE RED RIVER VALLEY was adopted by British Airborne
troops -- The Parachute Regiment / Glider Regiment -- as "their" song
aboard aircraft when going into battle. It is associated with them to this
day.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 02:36:00 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, David Rising wrote:

> I don't know about the German project, but the evidence (post-war) showed
> that the Japanese were pursuing the wrong path (i.e. making a bomb that
> would never work). Perhaps someone else could fill us in on the details.

They were not even close to making a bomb. The first stage in producing an
A-bomb is either enriching Uranium to almost pure U235, or producing
Plutonium. The Japanese tried to enrich uranium with an unsuitable
technique, gaseous thermal diffusion. They also lacked the technogical
basis to support this research. "The making of the atomic bomb" by R.
Rhodes has a brief overview (in a very sizeable and interesting book) of
the Japanese developments.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 02:36:49 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Xerox Copy

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, QUACK wrote:

> I have a copy,50 pages, of "Air-To_Air Combat in World War II: A Quantitative
> History" by Joseph H. Reinburg November 1966. Its a Research Paper P-345.

(breaking all rules for sensible posting to WWII-L)

Me too!

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:32:30 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: USMC Chronology 5Feb45

There is no entry for this date and will be none until 10Feb.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 23:48:40 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, Jim O'Neil wrote:

> >> . . .  In his book "The First
> >> and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
> >> bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
> >> wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
> >> knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
> >> Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this. . . .
> >
> >Is there anyone on the Allied side that can confirm that this was done?
>
> I can't comment on Pilots in parachutes but I have talked with many Germans
> who were young adults in late '44 and '45 who said movement in daylight was
> fraught with danger. US Fighters straffed anything that moved - Horses,
> dogs, children - Anything. The lady I most remember was an employee of
> mine, she had been about 14 and had to ride her bike from tree to tree,
> stop and look for fighters on the way to school & the way home. This has
> much to do with why Pilots shot down over Germany were stoned and
> pitchforked by the populace - the German soldiers saved a lot of pilots
> from a summary ending!

This last comment is especially interesting.  A lot of people don't hear
of it, but one of the ironies of the european air war, was that although
the Luftwaffe was the mortal enemy of allied bomber boys in theair, it
was their only friend on the ground.  Those looking for any trace of
chivalry or humanity in the air war will find it here.  When bomber crews
bailed out, if they survived the trip down (a.  strafing by fighters
b.potshots by ground soldiers )  they would often land in the midst of an
angry mob of homeless housewives and farmers who would lynch them like a
mob scene from an old Frankenstein movie. They would be beaten to death
with fenceposts, pitchforked, or most commonly strung up from the nearest
tall object.  Their best hope was if the boys in blue- the Luftwaffe-
arrived in time to spirit them off to prison.  There at least was some
comraderie left between airmen.  If you can find a copy of Johannes
Steinhoff's autobiography of JV-44 called "The Final Hours", his wingman
returning from having his Me262 shot down over the Danube river, comes
across some wounded B-17 crewmen trapped in a barn by the Gestapo and an
angry mob.  He and another guy pile them into a military truck and drive
off with the civilians howling for their blood.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Feb 1995 to 5 Feb 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 60 messages totalling 2452 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. GEN: "Most Significant" events...
  2. Unsung hero sacrifices virginity to liberate Dachau
  3. Enola Gay Exhibit (4)
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago 03-FEB-1945 (2)
  5. ?from high school student JRM
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-FEB-1945
  7. 3rd Army Chronology - 04Feb45
  8. 3rd Army Chronology - 05Feb45
  9. 3rd Army Chronology - 06Feb45
 10. Marine Corps Chronolog (2)
 11. INFO: Gestapo and SD (2)
 12. WEAP: Bismark (4)
 13. WANT: Map information
 14. 3rd Army Chronology - 07Feb45
 15. WWII Music
 16. WEAP:  Book Review (2)
 17. MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction (2)
 18. Senator Robert Dole (6)
 19. Peruvian Ecuadoran War (2)
 20. Xerox Copy
 21. Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole
 22. admin (sorry) (2)
 23. 25mm AT gun
 24. USA Air Corps in North Africa
 25. more on Japanese coup, etc
 26. administrative problems
 27. torpedo boats
 28. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (2)
 29. Polish Jews
 30. Lend-Lease Act
 31. WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb
 32. Fortune Magazine
 33. brief history of "gekokujo" (relates to August 1945 coup attempt)
 34. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945
 35. Enola Gay cartoon
 36. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC
 37. ADMIN: Trying to avoid flame (was RE: admin (sorry)
 38. DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties
 39. DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties (pt 2 of 2)
 40. Japanese Nukes
 41. MARINE CORPS CHRONOLOG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:50:28 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: "Most Significant" events...

Ya know, out on the airshow circuit, we often get simple questions that drive
you nuts.  Such as: "What were the most significant events of the war?"

There are several that are immediately apparent to most people: The Battle
of Britain, Pearl Harbor, Midway, the atomic bombs.

But there are a lot of things that happened inbetween that paint a broad --
yet structured -- picture of how you get there from here.

With the amount of research some people have done, I'm curious if anyone
has tackled this (not so :-) simple question.  What really were, from the
point of view of any participant in WWII, the major events of the war.

(In another way of thinking about it, what would a timeline look like if it
were just to address the major stories and touch on the pieces inbetween?)

(Yes... We're beginning to think about give-aways for airshows and such that
are right along those lines.  Space requirements force limited details, but
it's also got to make sense of seeing how you get from A to B to C...)

Curious about what the local historians think about...


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:23:33 +1100
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Unsung hero sacrifices virginity to liberate Dachau

  The Australian press carried a story last week of a fellow in Queensland who
walked out of the gates of Dachau dressed as an SS officer.
  It seems the fellow in question was being given the eye by a captain of the
womens SS unit in the camp. His CO suggested  he "make a play for her" in order
to get info as they were afraid the camp was about to be liquidated as the
front came closer.
  He carried out his orders despite being scared ( touching an SS even
accidentally could get you executed) and end up swapping his body 3 times a
week in the oficers room for information. Finally the women told him that her
unit was being replaced by another and the CO was afraid this might be a death
squad arriving and told him to see if the SS women would get our hero out in
return for a good word in the allies ears im her behalf.
   Being convinced that the war was already lost she agreed to help him and
supplied him with a uniform and they strolled through the gate arm in arm. He
had to be careful not to stare at the bodies stacked like cordwood near the
gate like a good SS soldier. He affected his escape and on encountering
American troops told them of the camp and led them there to bring about its
liberation. When pressed about the heroism of his action he merely shrugged it
off. " It was nothing I just bonked my way to freedom" was his reply. No VC no
movie portrayal by Steve Mcqueen but an unassuming who gave his all
Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:07:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

 >It's interesting, the various comments and opinions on this matter.
 >I've been "lurking" in the background, enjoying the postings from the
 >group, but I feel I now have something to contribute on this subject.
 >
 >My sister-in-law has been residing and working in Tokyo for about 2
 >years now and was in the "states" for the holidays.  She works in an
 >office almost exclusively Japanese and the A-bomb stamp and Enola Gay
 >exhibit have been quite the hot topics.  To make a long story short, at
 >least her japanese associates are of the opinion that they started it,
 >and we ended it the best way we knew how.  She has not heard any
 >animosity directed towards her or the U.S. regarding this.  Some of her
 >japanese friends even find all the controversy a bit odd.

SNIP  SNIP  SNIP

I was reading something in the NEW YORK TIMES this weekend (don't
remember whether it was a letter to the editor or an article) and
the author said that one Japanese student was heard to say that
they bombed Pearl Harbor in retaliation for us dropping the two
A-bombs.  (Yeah, I know!)

Has your sister-in-law heard anything like this or is this (1)
fiction and/or (2) an isolated incident?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:15:29 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago 03-FEB-1945

Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU> asked,...

>Western Front - In the U.S. Ist Army sector, elements of the 78th Division
>swim the flooded Roer River  ?????????  SWIM ??????
>
>In Feb??? Whoa that must've been quite a wakeup. And I have a tough time
>dipping the ice out of the dog's dish BRRRRRRRR.
>
>Were they issued any special equipment for this assault?

Truely this was new melt from the foothills. They must've been issued
wetsuits or better yet drysuits. Can anyone add more?  JD ?

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:23:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: ?from high school student JRM

 >On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Margaret J. McCormick wrote:
 >I'm an amateur at these things, especially compared to many of the
 >historians here, so I hope you get a lot of replys from them as well.  I
 >will tell you what I know from reading.
 >
 >>   If the first bomb was so destructive and awful, why did Japan not
 >> surrender and avoid being bombed again?
 >>
 >There is a lot of controversy about this, and the real reasons will never
 >be quite clear.  One account I read, after Hiroshima the american
 >government sent a message to Japan demanding surrender or else more bombs
 >would follow.  The Japanese government replied with a message that had to
 >be trnaslated from Japanese to english.  The key word was an ambiguous
 >word that could either be taken in context to mean "We will" or "We are
 >thinking about it."  Asian languages often have ambguities that are hard
 >for westerners to interpret.  For instance, in Korean the word "I" is
 >rarely used.  If you say you're going to the store, you don't say "I'M
 >going to the store."  Just "Store- now, going."   A Korean will know
 >intuitively who is going to the store, but a westerner might not.  So the
 >american government took the japanese message to mean they were
 >undecided, and maybe therefore needed another push.

The Big 3 conference was held at Potsdam, Germany on 17 Jul-2 Aug 45.  On
26 Jul, the Big 3 issued the Potsdam Proclamation which demaded the
Japanese surrender unconditionally on pain of "complete destruction."  On
30 Jul, the Japanese rejected the proclamation.

RE: The dropping of the second bomb, the following is something I posted
several months ago.

On my last birthday, my wife gave me a copy of TRUMAN by David McCullough
(Simon & Schuster, 1992, ISBN 0-671-45654-7).  I have not had a chance to
read it yet (another one on the pile of TO BE READ!!!) but due to the
current debate about the Nagaski bomb, I decided to use the book as a
reference to see what McCullough had to say about this event.

On page 457, McCullough states that no high-level meeting had been held
about the Nagaski bomb and no order, other than the military directive for
the first bomb, had ever been issued.  This directive had been issued on 25
Jul 45 by General of the Army George C. Marshall's deputy, General Thomas
T. Handy, to General Carl A. Spaatz, Commanding General, U.S. Army
Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific (USASTAF).  Paragraph 2 of the
directive stated, "Additional bombs will be delivered on the above targets
as soon as made ready by the project staff....."  The plutonium bomb,
nicknamed "Fat Man," was delivered two days ahead of schedule.

NOTE: According to THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II, Volume 5, Wesley
Frank Craven and James Lea Cate, the University of Chicago Press, 1953,
some thought had been given to dropping the second bomb on 11 August 45.
When bad weather was forcast for the Japanese main islands on 11 August,
the strike day for the atom bomb was advanced to 9 August.  This decision
was made by military personnel in the Marianas Islands, not by Truman.
(page 718)

 >>   Also, how was radar used during WWII?
 >Radar was a British invention, and was critical in the early years of
 >the war to england's defense against Germany.  The German Luftwaffe (Air
 >Force) underestimated the potential of radar and lost many planes to
 >British fighters who were able to intercept them efficiently.  Early
 >radar was crude and short ranged.  The Germans were pioneering radar
 >systems of their own but were behind the British.  Radar was used
 >exclusively for air defense at first, and then later became useful for
 >accurate guiding of anti-aircraft guns and rockets.  By the end of the
 >war the Germans had perfected radar guided anti-aircraft cannons that
 >played hell on allied bombers, especially at night.
 >    It is interesting that radar was in place on Hawaii the day that
 >Pearl Harbor was bombed by the Japanese.  In fact the radar systems saw
 >the huge groups of airplanes coming towards the island and frantic radar
 >operators called the air force bases and warned them, even when the
 >Japanese planes were still miles away from the island.  However, the
 >operators were only on the mountain top sunday morning because they were
 >new guys just practicing with the new invention, and no one took them
 >seriously.  The officers figured they had picked up a big flock of
 >birds, or a group of large AMERICAN bombers on the screen and were
 >overreacting.  Also american military officers were suspicious of radar,
 >because it was a british invention and not an american one.

RE: Radar in Hawaii on 7 Dec 41, the following is one of my annual Pearl
Harbor posts.

This post describes the radar facilities on Oahu, specifically the Opana
Radar Station, during the early hours of 7 Dec 41.  All times specified are
local Hawaiian time.

The U.S. Army was responsible for defending all military installations in
Hawaii against aerial attack.  The Signal Corps had planned an aircraft
warning service consisting of an Information Center at Fort Shafter and nine
radar stations, three fixed and six mobile.  By 7 Dec 41, the six mobile
stations were in operation but the towers for the three fixed station were on
the dock at Oakland, California.

To save money, manpower, and wear and tear, the six mobile radar stations
only operated during the following hours:

  Sunday: 0400-0700
  Monday thru Friday: 0700-1100 and 1200-1600
  Saturday: 0700-1100

The Information Center at Fort Shafter consisted of a plotting board where
plotters marked the position of aircraft up on radar or by coast watchers.
The plotters had no way of distinguishing friend from foe.  Two officers were
also on duty, a controller and a pursuit officer.  The pursuit officer was
"to assist the Controller in ordering planes to intercept enemy planes or
supposed enemy planes, after the planes got in the air."

The best of the mobile radar stations was the Opana Mobile Radar Station
which was located 230 feet (70 meters) above sea level near Kahuku Point on
the northern tip of Oahu.  The site consisted of a few tents and two
equipment trailers.  The radar set itself had a range of approximately 130
miles (209 km).

At 0400 hours on Sunday, 7 Dec 41, Privates Joseph L Lockard and George E
Elliott went on duty.  Lockard was the more experienced of the two and began
instructing Elliott in the use of the equipment.  At 0700 hours, Lockard began
shutting the radar unit down but because the truck taking them to breakfast
was late, Elliott convinced Lockard to leave the radar system on for
additional training.  At 0702 hours, they picked up more than 50 aircraft
bearing 005 degrees at 132 miles (212 km).  After checking the radar to
ensure that it was functioning correctly, Private Elliott called the
Information Center to report.  The conversation lasted seven or eight
minutes during which time the target moved 20-25 miles (32-40 km) closer to
Oahu.

Since the Information Center was located on an Army post, the plotters and
Controller did not have to wait for a vehicle to take them to breakfast.
Therefore, the center was closed promptly at 0700 hours and by the time
Elliott called, there were only two people left, the switchboard operator
and the Pursuit Officer.  Strangely, the tour of duty for the Pursuit Officer
lasted until 0800 hours.  The Pursuit Officer that morning was Lieutenant
Kermit A Tyler, a fighter pilot in the 78th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor)
at Wheeler Field.  Tyler's first experience with the Information Center was
on 3 Dec, four days earlier.  It never occurred to him that this incoming
flight could be enemy aircraft.  He almost immediately remembered that a
flight of 12 Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress' were enroute from California and
due to arrive about an hour later.  When plotted at the Opana Radar Site,
the B-17s would bear 010 degrees, 5 degrees east of the bearing of the
Japanese aircraft.  Tyler told Elliott that his target was the B-17 flight
at approximately 0720 hours when the target was at 74 miles (119 km), bearing
003 degrees.  Lockard and Elliott continued to track the target until 0739
hours when ground clutter interfered.  At that time, the target was at 20
miles (32 km) bearing 041 degrees.

Lockard and Elliott made one big mistake.  They neglected to tell Lieutenant
Tyler that the sighing consisted of more than 50 aircraft.  If they had,
perhaps Tyler would not have confused the blips with a flight of 12 B-17s.
Then again, this is one of the great "What If" discussions of the war.

The Opana Radar Station continued operating during the morning and tracked
the Japanese aircraft when they headed north back to their carriers.  The
Information Center at Fort Shafter recorded these reports at 1027 and 1029
hours.  However, the high command had convinced themselves that the Japanese
carriers lay in a southerly direction and the radar reports were ignored.
This is another "What If" discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:28:36 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-FEB-1945

On 07-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 78th Division continues
the offensive against the Schwammenauel dam, taking Kommerscheidt and
entering Schmidt and Harscheid. In the 3rd Army sector, the offensive
against the Siegfried Line is meeting strong German resistance, but the
offensive continues along the entire front. The 17th Airborne Division and
6th Armoured Division cross the Our and enter Germany. Elements of the XII
Corps cross the Our and Sauer between Vianden and Echternach. The XX Corps
takes Sinz and attacks the German pocket between Campholz and Tettingen.
The 26th Division launches a series of thrusts in the area of the
Saarlautern-Roden bridgehead. In the French 1st Army sector, the XXI Corps
continues its offensive along the Rhine north and south of Balgau. The 1st
Armoured Division crosses the Ill at Ensisheim.

Eastern Front - In Budapest, the Russians capture the southern railway
station. The 1st Ukraine Front puts more troops across the Oder near
Furstenberg and south of Frankfurt. The 1st Belorussian Front attacks
Arnswalde and Deutsch-Krone. Additional Russian forces are put into action
against Poznan. In Yugoslavia, the Germans are preparing to withdraw from
Mostar and Visegrad. The German Army is suffering from an increasing
shortage of officers as a result of their high casualty figures. All
leaves are suspended.

Philippines - Operations against Manila are ordered to be speeded up by
MacArthur. The 1st Cavalry Division begins mopping up the eastern part of
Manila up the Pasig, which is crossed by the 37th Division using inflatable
boats. In the I Corps area, the battle of Munoz ends. The Japanese
defenders are virtually wiped out when they attempt to escape. The Japanese
in Lupao are still holding out strongly though. In the 8th Army sector, the
11th Airborne Division, with air and artillery support, begin to drive on
Nichols Field.

China - In southeast China, the Japanese occupy Kanchow, a base of the U.S.
14th Air Force.

The Homefront
-------------
U.S. Sub Reported Lost - The Navy reports that the submarine Tang is
overdue and presumed lost.

Lend-Lease Extension Backed - Foreign Economic Administrator Leo Crowley
has told the House Foreign Affairs Committee that the Lend-Lease system
"must be continued until the final day of unconditional surrender of
Germany and Japan."

Soldier Gets Life Sentence - The death sentence imposed on Pvt. Henry Weber
at Camp Roberts, Calif., by a general court martial board for refusing to
drill has been revoked in favor of a dishonorable discharge and life
imprisonment with hard labor. Weber, a member of the Socialist-Labor Party,
is a conscientious objector on non-religious grounds.

Most Popular Songs - Variety reports the current most popular songs as
"Don't Fence Me In", "Accentuate the Positive", "Rum and Coca-Cola, "I
Dream Of You" and "There Goes That Song Again".

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:28:56 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 04Feb45

February 4, 1945
D-Day +243

-A reshuffling of German Panzer divisions remaining in the west, with a
 strong trend of movement to the northern sectors on the front, and with
 no contact with 3rd Army indicated that the Germans were aware something
 was on in the north.

-VIII Corps continued its attack on the line of Neuendorf-Prum-Prosfeld.

-XII Corps used search lights to illuminate battle areas. The 2 that
 scanned across the Moselle River near Canach did not provoke German
 artillery.

-XIX TAC was grounded except for weather recon.

***

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:43:37 -0500
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago 03-FEB-1945

On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, Alan Wild wrote:

> Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU> asked,...
>
> >Western Front - In the U.S. Ist Army sector, elements of the 78th Division
> >swim the flooded Roer River  ?????????  SWIM ??????
> >
> >In Feb??? Whoa that must've been quite a wakeup. And I have a tough time
> >dipping the ice out of the dog's dish BRRRRRRRR.
> >
> >Were they issued any special equipment for this assault?
>
> Truely this was new melt from the foothills. They must've been issued
> wetsuits or better yet drysuits. Can anyone add more?  JD ?
>

That is all it said in my source. This item came from the Army green book
chronology volume.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:41:42 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 05Feb45

February 5, 1945
D-Day +244

-17th Airborne patrolled the Our River.

-VIII Corps, 90th Inf Div, 359th Regiment clears Habscheid. 4th Inf Div
 captures Brandscheid and Schlausenbach. 87th Inf Div launched attack on
 Siegfried Line at 0400 hours.

-XIX TAC was grounded.

-Tanks used by cavalry recon squadrons were being converted from M59 to
 M24. These conversions not only created a faster, more maneuverable tank,
 but also exchanged a new 75mm gun in place of the old 37mm.

-Authorization was given to reestablish local mail and telephone in
 Luxembourg City, Esch, and other cities in Southern Luxembourg.

***Source: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:49:18 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 06Feb45

February 6, 1945
D-Day +245

-III Corps, 17th Airborne in conjunction with 6th Armored Div crossed
 the Our River in a limited attack.

-VIII Corps, 11th Armored reached a point about 8 miles southwest of Prum.
 4th Inf Div captures Sellerich, Herscheid, Hontheim, and Wascheid.
 4th Armored captured Bettel. 87th Inf Div advances about a mile keeping
 in line, coordinating with First Army.

-At 0100 hours, XII Corps, 5th Inf Div crosses the Sauer River and gains
 1000 yards on the bank. At 0300 the 80th Inf Div crosses and attacks.
 Prior to the attacks, III and XII Corps artillery prep the area with
 29,000 rounds in 280 firing missions aimed at German artillery positions,
 137 German command posts, and 102 German occupied towns.

-XIX TAC flew 214 sorties damaging or destroying 272 vehicles, 13 armored
 vehicles or tanks, 245 railroad cars, and 30 buildings.

-German snipers did not fire upon liter carriers with bib-type Red Cross
 aprons produced by local civilian labor.

***

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:42:52 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marine Corps Chronolog

I am definitely interested.  Post away.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:46:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

Hello, William!

Will try to help.

>     I do, however, have certain questions which I hope that some might be
> able to answer.  First, how closely did the Gestapo work with the Orpo?
> I ask this because, while both were under Himmler, the Gestapo was part
> of the Sipo and Heydrich while the Orpo was under Kurt Daluege.  Therefore,
> there was a seperation at the upper elechon of the police and, I imagine,
> it was fairly intense given the personality of Heydrich.  Did this persist
> to the lower levels of cooperation?  Additionally, did the Gestapo carry
> out all of its arrests on its own or did they use various SS or civil
> service persons?

You might consult Gerald Reitlinger's "SS-Alibi of a Nation" which
discusses this aspect of cooperation between the Orpo and the Gestapo.

Hope this helps.

>     Second question: What were the differences in the operations of the Gestapo
> and the SD abroad?  They two are often mentioned in the same sentence when
> speaking of fomenting the Nazi movements in Austria or Czechoslovakia.  In
> fact, the party itself added to the mosaic of foreign operatives.  Were these
> organizations given seperate tasks or were they all doing the same thing?

    You might consult Heinz Hoehne's "Order of the Death's Head" for
info on this. Also, Hoehne's "Canaris".

>     Third, on internal Reich affairs, the Gestapo had responsibility to
> look to the security of the Reich as Political police.  The SD had the
> responsibility to look to the security of the Reich as the Party Intelligence
> Service.  But, by 1934, the Reich became little more than an extension of
> the Party (in the view of Hitler) and therefore the SD monitored non-party
> environments such as universities, churches, etc.  Besides the fact that
> the Gestapo had the responsibility of arresting, imprisoning, etc., what
> were the practical differences between the two.  In theory, the Gestapo
> was a state organization, while the SD was a party organization.  But, as I
> mentioned, the party and state were almost one.
>
> Third question: In operations in occupied territories and in particular the
> securing of power and eventually the Final Solution, both the SD and Gestapo
> were involved.  Was there any differences in their roles?

    I don't think so, but at the same time, the Germans were
fastidious about delineations between security agencies. It seems to
me that the SD was concerned with the internal administration of the
camps and the Gestapo with identifying and arresting people for
deportation to the camps.

My thoughts. Wish I could supply you with more info.
>
> Thank you for any help you might be able to give.  If anyone would like,
> I can upload copies of the paper if I ever get it finished.

    It would be an interesting read. Would appreciate it.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:53:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

Hello, John!

There were reports of German subs in the area and the captain didn't
want to subject his men or vessel to an enemy attack. He received on
censure for doing this. It was a wartime situation, and, given the
feeling toward the Germans at the time, although regrettable, he
called off the rescue attempt.

Hope this helps.

Terry
> I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
> was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
> how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then
> decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
> go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
> light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
> receive any type of censure for doing this?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
> Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:54:19 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WANT: Map information

Hello, Kevin!

Try the "West Point Atlas of American Wars"

All the best.

Terry
>
>   Can anyone recommend a good source for detail maps showing troop deployment in
> the ETO.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Kamphaus
> kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:12:21 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: 3rd Army Chronology - 07Feb45

February 7, 1945
D-Day +246

-SHAEF, Twelfth Army Group orders 3rd Army to continue its limited attacks
 and maintain positions.

-17th Airborne and 6th Armored enlarged the bridgehead across the Our River.

-VIII Corps, 4th Inf Div captured Obermerlen, 87th Inf Div continues its
 attack in coordination with First Army.

-XII Corps, 80th Inf Div captures Wallendorf.

-Poor weather again grounds XIX TAC.

 "On February 7 the First Canadian Army jumped off at Nijmegen in the Allied
attack that within 35 days was to destroy the German army west of the Rhine.
As Simpson's army waited in readiness on the Roer, Hodges ordered Gerow to
go after the dam sites and gain control of that river. By February 10,
V Corps had captured the Roer dams and driven the enemy into the dark forests
that stretched beyond them.

 But before quiting those dams, the enemy dynamited their floodgates. As
the torent of waters sluiced down the Roer valley, the river washed 3 feet
above its muddy banks. An unseasonable winter thaw melted the thick snows
of the Eifel and soon a score of rushing streams fed the river flood.
Division commanders of the First and Ninth Armies, drawn up on the river
bank, looked across the muddy torent and prayed that Group would delay the
offensive rather than dare it at flood stage. Not wanting to risk a
catastrophe on the river crossing, both Armies settled down to wait for the
flood to subside.

 By now our intent was apparent and I was fearful the enemy might reinforce
this front with troops from the Eifel where Patton had been instructed to hold
defensively on his line. There, George had been probing the Siegfried Line
with small feeler attacks, not in preparation for a major offensive but
primarily because he found it impossible to sit still. For Third Army viewed
defensive warfare as something to be shunned at all costs. Now with
Eisenhower's consent, I ordered Patton to mount an offensive in the Eifel.
It was to be strong enough to keep the enemy from shifting to the Roer but
not so strong as to arouse the objections of Monty. Replacements for this
limited offensive could be spared initially while the First and Ninth
Armies fidgeted on the Roer.

 Patton was to pierce the enemies Siegfried fortifications north of the
Moselle and advance quietly to the Kyll, a mountain stream that paralleled
the Luxembourg border, 12 miles beyond the German frontier. There he was
to seize a bridgehead in anticipation of a full-scale advance to the Rhine.
But this later phase was not to begin until Monty was safely anchored on
the Rhine opposite the Ruhr.

 Rather than directly disobeying SHAEF's written orders consigning him to
the defensive, Patton termed his 3rd Army operations in the Eifel an
"aggresive defense". His staff innocently believed that they were
hoodwinking Ike's staff at Versailles. Moreover it was rumored that I had
joined Patton in this conspiratorial offensive. My insubordination however
was purely make-believe, for without the knowledge of Patton's staff and mine,
Eisenhower had agreed to it." -Gen. Omar Bradley

***Sources: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province
            _A Solidier's Story_ by Gen. Omar Bradley
   Typos: mine...

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:12:31 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

FWIW, the highest ranking surviving officer of the Bismarck was one of those
rescued by the Dorchester.  In his book he indicates that under the circumstances, the British captain made the right decision.  I don't have the reference
with me, but if I still have the book I will try to find it if someone
else doesn't beat me to it.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:53:34 EST
From:    Richard King <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Marine Corps Chronolog

Ben:
I'll second the posting of a daily (or whenever) Marine Corps
Chronology. Sounds like a good, interesting project.

Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:57:04 EST
From:    Richard King <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: WWII Music

Sidney:
Concerning the story about the Airborne veteran whistling PLEASE COME
BACK TO THE RED RIVER VALLEY: you've proved once again that great
stories don't have to be lengthy! Thanks for a good posting on
a cold Monday morning.

Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:32:50 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

At 7:50 AM 2/2/95, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:
[...]
>Margaret:
>
>The reason that Japan did not surrender after Hiroshima was not that they
>were getting over ths shock of what happened. The Japanese high council
>knew within hours just what had happened over hiroshima. They immediately
>began 'spin control' attempts to keep the truth from their own subjects.
>
>They wanted a 'glorious fight ffor the homeland', no matter how many of their
>own people died. Remember the casualties from island hopping were about 3 to
>1 against the Japanese, and the japanese people were told that the american
>fleet had been decimated and the imperial japanese fleet was on the brink of
>totally eliminating the US presence in the pacific. Apparently their perception
>of the truth today is similarly skewed.
>
>Even afte Nagasaki was bombed, many of the military elite wanted to continue
>fighting. They capitulated only when directed to by the emporer himself. Even
>then there were attempts to quash the surrender.
>
>No, they weren't getting over any shock, nor were they trying desperatly to
>surrender via diplomatic channels.
>
>Source: Reader's Digest Illustrated History of World War II, and THIS LIST!
>

Dropping the bomb may have been "correct", but I don't think it is
completely a black and white question.  Questioning the need for the bomb
is not restricted to leftist, 60's peacenik revisionists.  For example:

Japan was negotiating with Russia to end the war in May.  Konoye, the
intended emissary had been instructed to "secure peace at any price,
notwithstanding its severity".  If that failed, Sakomizu alledged that
Suszuki and Togo decided that they would make direct overtures to the
United States.

"Concerning the absoluteness of her defeat there can be no doubt.  The time
lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable
might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a
more rapid and decisive determination of national plicies."

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the
testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's
opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability
prior to 1 Novemeber 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic
bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and
even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

SOURCE:  _Japan's Struggle to End the War_, The United States Strategic
Bombing Survey, 1 July 1946

"To the average observer in the West in mid-1945, the Japanese decision to
comply with Allied terms appeared to be the direct result of the bombing of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviet Union's declaration of war agains Japan
on 9 August, and the Allied promise not to alter the legal position of
Emperor Hirohito.  Yet, with the advantate of hindsight and a detailed
knowledge of developments within Japan in the weeks preceding the
surrender, a leading historin on the subject makes clear that the 'decision
-- in embryo -- had long been taking shape.'"

SOURCE: _Manhattan: The Army and the Atomic Bomb_, "Green Book Series", 1984
(The quote within the quote is from Robert J.C. Butow, Japan's Decision to
Surrrender, 1954)

"Once it had been tested, President Truman faced the decision as to whether
to use it.  He did not like the idea, but was persuaded that it would
shorten the war against Japan and save American lives.  It is my opinion
that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no
material assistance in our war against Japan.  The Japanese were already
defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and
the successful bombing with conventional wapons."

"It was my reaction that the scientists and others wanted to make this test
because of the vast sums that had been spent on the project.  Truman knew
that, and so did the other people involved."

SOURCE: _I Was There_, Fleet Admiral William D Leahy, 1950 (Chief of Staff
to Roosevelt and Truman)


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:01:08 -0500
From:    Matthew Savoie <msavoie@KRAKEN.MVNET.WNEC.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:  Book Review

Just found this book review in the Jan-Feb 1995 edition of Armor magazine
from the U.S. Army' Armor Center at Fort Knox, KY:

Standard Guide to U.S. World War II Tanks and Artillery by Konrad F.
Schreier Jr., Krause Publications, 700 East State Street, Iola, Wis. 54990.
$24.95

In the last few years, several authors have published guides to the tanks
and artillery fielded by the U.SW. during World War II.  Konrads F. Schreier
Jr. has written what is probavly the best guide available.  The book is
exhaustive, listing every tank, half track, artillery piece, air defense
gun, and armored car used in WWII by the U.S., eith er in combat or in
training.

The book has 255 pages of text, an incredible amount of information.  Nearly
forgotten systems such as the 1005mm M3 towed howitzer and the tank mounted
multiple rocketlauncher are covered.  One sequence of photographs covers the
process used to move and emplace the 36 in "Little David" mortar.  That is
not a misprint - it had a bore of 36b inches!  It was developed to destroy
fixed fortifications and was not deployed with any combat troops.

If the book had only described the weapons, it would be useful.  What makes
it invaluable is the discussion of artillery fire control and ammunition.
While U.S. artillery systems were comparable with any other country's, the
U.S. system of fire control was the best.  American artillerymen had
mastered the methods of delivering fire on the target in a very short timer.
The effectiveness of U.S. artiellery during WWII was appreciatated by U.S.
soldiers, envied by our allies, and admired by our enemies, even as they
sought cover.

Included in the book is a short section on ammunition, a subject normally
overlooked by those who discuss armor and artillery.  The concentration is
on the systems, but falls short in recognizing that, aside from the shock
power of movement, tanks and artillery normally kill targets with delivered
ammunition.

The only real criticism of the book is the failure to include armor
thickness and penetyration capabilities of all the armor systems, either as
part of the vehicle description of in a comprehensive chart.  Failure to
include this information makes it difficult to understand why U.S. soldiers
felt undergunned and underarmored.  The author's statement about the ability
of the 76mm HVAP projectile to kill Panther and Tiger tanks overstates the
round's ability to actually kill those tanks.  While the HVAP projectile
could penetrate thier side armor at a long range, the Shermans had a serious
range disadvantage when engaging the Panther and Tiger tanks over the
frontal arc.

If you are interested in WWII tanks and artillery, you should purchase this
book.  The book is very readable and the price is reasonable.

Gerald A. Halbert
545 Willwood Drive
Earlysville, VA

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew M. Savoie           |  "There is only one tactical principal that   |
Western New England College |    that remains unchanged.  It is to inflict  |
1215 Wilbraham Road         |    the maximum amount of death, wounds, and   |
Box 1830                    |    destruction in the minimum amount of time."|
Springfield, MA 01119       |              - General George S. Patton, Jr.  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:13:12 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

> > :NAZI PAPERS WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION AFTER OUTCRY
> >
> >     LONDON, Feb 2  - Nazi papers from the extermination camp
> > Bergen-Belsen, one of which bears the signature of Adolf Hitler, were
> > withdrawn from an auction on Thursday after public protests that the
> > timing was tasteless.
>
> James,
> I've always been under the impression that there were no papers or other
> such documentation which could tie Hitler to the final solution. All his
> orders were given orally (or so I've been led to believe). Any idea what
> these papers were about? Just wondering.
> David Rising

Yes, that is pretty interesting because David Irving, noted Hitler
apologist, has a standing offer of about $100,000.00 for evidence
proving that Hitler knew anything about the final solution.  I bet
that would have something of an impact on the bidding had they been
sold on the block.

I have never heard of that auction house before, has anyone on the
list heard of them or dealt with them?  A lot like that you would
expect to see in Southebys or Hermann Historca.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:44:55 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Senator Robert Dole

        I was watching Letterman on Friday night and Senator Robert DOle
was on the show.  At the end he mentioned that in the audience was his
buddy who pulled him out of the foxhole when he was wounded.  I know that
Dole was severly injured during the war, but I have never heard the
story.  Does anyone know the story?

Patrick J. Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:20:13 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Senator Robert Dole

I worked on Dole's 1988 capiagn for a little bit, and I saw a 10 minute
capaign tape about him. although i am not sure of the details of his
wound, i do know that he was so badly wounded that it was expected he
would be severly crippled. he return to Kanasas after the war weighing
under 100 lbs (i think) and started his own rehabilitation program
(remember, at this time he is in his late teens, early twenties) he was
able to recover to the point that he only lost use of his right hand.he
actually a very interesting person and quite a story. -Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |




On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, Patrick Charles wrote:

>         I was watching Letterman on Friday night and Senator Robert DOle
> was on the show.  At the end he mentioned that in the audience was his
> buddy who pulled him out of the foxhole when he was wounded.  I know that
> Dole was severly injured during the war, but I have never heard the
> story.  Does anyone know the story?
>
> Patrick J. Charles
> pchuck@u.washington.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:51:34 GMT+6
From:    Esaul Zermeno Bautista <EZERMENO@DPED.DPED.UAA.MX>
Subject: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

       At this moment I have not the exactly date, but the origin of
the Peruvian Ecuadoran war it soar to the colonial epoque, when
Ecuator for some reason have a debt and wants to pay with a portion
of territory , but this portion was given by the King of Spain at
this time to Peruvian Governement.
But the really problem emerge when years later both countries knows
the existence of oils fields and when oil take more importance.


  Hope this help.

     Alfredo.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:05:44 GMT+6
From:    Esaul Zermeno Bautista <EZERMENO@DPED.DPED.UAA.MX>
Subject: Re: Xerox Copy

      I too would be interested in this. Please let me know how you
plan to distribute it.


      Alfredo.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 12:05:52 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

I beleive Dole was serving with the 10th Mountain Division in Italy
during the time he was wounded.  Please correct me if I am wrong but
that is what my memory tells me.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:01:26 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Hello John;

>Dropping the bomb may have been "correct", but I don't think it is
>completely a black and white question.  Questioning the need for the bomb
>is not restricted to leftist, 60's peacenik revisionists.  For example:

Agreed that it is not a black and white affair, but it seems to have been
a lot 'whiter' than represented. There is a knee-jerk reaction to anything
connected to the BOMB, though that is mostly the product of our collective
conditioning since the bomb was dropped.

>Japan was negotiating with Russia to end the war in May.  Konoye, the
>intended emissary had been instructed to "secure peace at any price,
>notwithstanding its severity".  If that failed, Sakomizu alledged that
>Suszuki and Togo decided that they would make direct overtures to the
>United States.

If you beleive that they were really serious, or if the US beleived they
were. It seems to have been a stalling tactic of the japanese at the time.

>"Concerning the absoluteness of her defeat there can be no doubt.  The time
>lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable
>might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a
>more rapid and decisive determination of national plicies."

Has anybody ever looked into what the japanese people really knew at that
point in time? Their sources of information were loading them up with
porpoganda about how they were winning, and suddenly they didn't...

-sorry, I had to delete a bunch of really good stuff.

The fact is that Americans were dying in the war. Americans like some of those
on this list. To say that they were expendable because the war was gonna last
only a few months longer is rather cynical, ain't it? I for one am glad that
these people survived the war, and I don't feel the least bit guilty.

You shouldn't either given the japanese casualty rate of 300+% american.

In either event, this is a rather moot argument. The bombs were dropped, and
there is little point in wallowing in guilt for what was then, the proper
decision (IMHO).

We can differ in our opinions yet maintain mutual respect. Others can chime
in on both sides because this is an engrossing topic, but I think I've said
enough.

Take care, John, and thanx fer th' response.
                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:04:27 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Senator Robert Dole

Dear Patrick,

             A while back 60 minutes did a spot on Dole and there was
a discussion concerning Dole's war experience. From what I recall, Dole
was seriously wounded (almost died) and spent a great part of the war
in a hospital. Evidence of his injury still exists.You may have noticed
that he seldom uses his one arm and hand. I think he suffered severe
nerve damage and can hardly move his fingers (in that one hand). During
the interview with Morly (I think it was Morly), Dole actually broke
down and cried when recalling the incident. It was very moving to see
how deeply he was affected.


                           Mary

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:25:39 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: admin (sorry)

        Joe, I have no idea what the hell happened but you probably wound up
with a bunch of messages bounced from my account.  Some force beyond my control
apparently quintupled the amount of space my directory was taking up.  The
computer folks here still don't know what caused the problem, but they gave me
10,000 additional blocks while they work on it so the problem should be cleared
up as far as it effects you...sorry for the inconvenience, but I didn't do
nuthin' (I left Thursday with approx 560 blocks used out of an allowance of
2000 + 100 permitted overdraft.  I came back to see my usage at 3400+!!  Even
after I deleted all my messages that arrived in the last three days I was still
at 2600+ and couldn't do anything (like compress or alert you with a message or
even set "no-mail" because it was telling me I was over quota.  Again, my
apologies for any inconvenience this caused.
PS I "speed-deleted" some 100+ messages, not counting at least 7 that bounced,
so I probably missed a bunch of good stuff.

PPS; sorry, Joe, but I think I referred to the LUPO as a "destroyer escort,"
not exactly accurate either but I like to use the term because "torpedo boat"
creates confusion with MTB's, PT's, etc...

Abjectly yours

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:32:24 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

Thanks for your advice.  I'll definitely go get that Canaris book.  I've
read it once but have forgotten about it.  When I went to get it months
ago it was out.  I'll look for the SS-Alibei book.  As for the administration
of the camps, both the SD and Gestapo were restricted on pain of death
(probably only a little exaggeration here).  These two were controlled
by Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner (I think).  But Himmler was smart
enough not to put so much power in one person's hands so the administration
of the camps fell to the Totenkopf division.  This is readily seen by the
Death's Head on their collar insignia.  Thanks for the help and I'll let
you know when I get this paper done.  Nothing like going to school to
make me finish things.

Bill Lippert

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 14:44:08 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Senator Robert Dole

>        I was watching Letterman on Friday night and Senator Robert DOle
>was on the show.  At the end he mentioned that in the audience was his
>buddy who pulled him out of the foxhole when he was wounded.  I know that
>Dole was severly injured during the war, but I have never heard the
>story.  Does anyone know the story?
>


Senator Dole was injured in Italy during the war.  If you ever see him live
or on television, you will notice that one of his hand is clenched close
and usually has a pen stuck in the palm.  I think this is a result of his
injuriesfrom an artillery attack.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:09:29 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: 25mm AT gun

Mike,
I saved your post - I have never heard of this, tho' it parallels the
German Stielgranate... did the French invent it first? I would appreciate
any info on range, effectiveness, quantity produced and penetration you
could provide along with any production and service dates. I am not
familiar w/ "DST", is this like a FOMCat?

>the french hotchkiss-puteaux at gun also had a 2kg
>HEAT projectile. since this was an over-calibre round,
>it was slipped over the end of the muzzle and propelled with
>a blank cartridge. Source: DST-1160G-514-78-Vol2, May 1978.
>
>i'll be nomail until 6 Feb.
>
>******************************************************************************
>* Mike LaForge                                                               *
>* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosives Safety (USATCES)                 *
>* Explosives Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                 *
>* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
>* (DERP-FUDS)                                                                *
>* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-6009  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
>******************************************************************************

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:03:06 -0500
From:    Tim McFeely <ad658@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>
Subject: USA Air Corps in North Africa

I have several questions and was wondering if the dedicated List members
might be able to help or at least point me in the right direction.

1.) I was wondering if someone might have an order of battle for the Air
Corps in North Africa after Operation Torch? I am primarily interested in
fighter or fighter/bomber units equipped with aircraft such as P-40's etc.

2.) What would a combat loadout consist of for the above aircraft? I realize
different missions require different loadouts. What would be typical for
interdiction type missions?

Thanks in advance for any and all answers.

Tim McFeely
Ocean State FreeNet
ad658@osfn.rhilinet.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:18:39 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: more on Japanese coup, etc

        I wanted to add a few more thoughts on the abortive coup of August 1945
(now that I seem to be back up and running, e-mail wise).  First, I thought I
should provide the full name of General Shizuichi Tanaka, commander of Eastern
Army, since it strikes me that he was one of the few actors in this drama who
acted impeccably from start to finish.  He refused to even listen to the coup
proposal, and his HQ, especially his chief-of-staff, were instrumental in
ending the attempt.  Later he committed suicide to atone for his own failures
in the defense of the homeland.  I also wanted to mention that, as ambiguous as
his attitude toward the planned insurrection seemed to be, General Anami, the
War Minister, certainly performed a supreme act of atonement for his own
omissions.  Anami committed hara-kiri in the traditional manner, and selected
one of the most painful variants, making two cuts in his own belly.
        I also wanted to elaborate on the history of gekokujo and its role in
shaping the politics of pre-war Japan, but as time presses I'll save that for
another post later today.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 14:02:07 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

Hello, Bill!

Interesting. My thoughts exactly regarding your post. Makes me wonder
about their authenticity. Any thoughts?



> Yes, that is pretty interesting because David Irving, noted
Hitler
> apologist, has a standing offer of about $100,000.00 for evidence
> proving that Hitler knew anything about the final solution.  I bet
> that would have something of an impact on the bidding had they been
> sold on the block.

    Would be interested to know the subject matter on which his
signature is found.

> I have never heard of that auction house before, has anyone on the
> list heard of them or dealt with them?  A lot like that you would
> expect to see in Southebys or Hermann Historca.


    Thanks, Bill! Will be in touch.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:42:50 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: administrative problems

        Joe, if you were forced to unsubsribe me due to bouncing messages is
there a way to turn me back on?? (I'm innocent, I tell ya).  Hopefully the
problem will not recur as I've now got more spare blocks than I know what to do
with-- getting nervous 'cause I haven't seen any messages for a while.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:02:57 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: torpedo boats

        Joe, referring to the Italian "torpedo boats" such as the LUPO and the
SAGITTARIO as "destroyer escorts" is something I took from Bragadin-- although
its not precisely accurate (U.S. DE's, being purpose-built for their role,
had much better ASW equipment and heavier AA armament, among other things) it
seems to fill the bill.  Many European nations, especially those which were not
oceanic naval powers, built such craft in the first half of the century, mainly
as attack vessels for coast defense tasks.  Since "torpedo boat" for me
conjures up visions of McHale's Navy, I was looking for a less confusing term
to use in referring to these craft.  While not exactly correct in terms of
intended task (although Italian, German, and other "torpedo boats" of this type
were often found in an escort role), "destroyer escort" is at least more
indicative of the size and displacement of these ships, typically in the
500-1,000 ton range-- i.e., a scaled-down destroyer.  Bragadin, de Belot, and
others generally use 1,000 tons as the dividing line-- bigger ships are
classified as destroyers (although this is still fuzzy in some cases, like the
British HUNT class ships, which were about 1,000 tons but built with the
destroyer escort role in mind.  Also some of the US DE's exceeded 1,000 tons).
I myself find it simpler to conform to this naval shorthand, so please excuse
my over-simplification.  This confusion extends not only to Italian vessels.
The Norwegian Navy in April 1940 had no actual destroyers operational (two were
building), but most accounts of the naval campaign there (including Norwegian
accounts) speak of Norwegian destroyers.  They are also talking about "torpedo
boats"-- Norway had three old WW1 540-tonners and four new 620-tonners.  There
is then the question of what to call the Norwegian STEGG, TRYGG, and SNOGG--
also "torpedo boats," but only 220 tons, and without anywhere near the
firepower (or sea-keeping ability) of the bigger torpedo boats (the 600-tonners
mounted three 100-mm
guns, the 540-tonners six 76-mm; the 220-ton vessels had two 76-mm, all of them
had multiple torpedo tubes).  So I'm using the term "destroyer escort" as a
blanket term for these 500-1,000 ton "mini-destroyers," regardless of whether
they were initially built for escort or torpedo attack as their primary
envisioned role.  That way I save the term "torpedo boat" for the smaller
(under 300 tons) craft like the TRYGG-class vessels and the Italian MS.

PS While I'm nit-picking, I might as well include myself on the list.  I
earlier referred to author Erminio Bagnasco as "Ernesto" (sorry)

PPS I just had a message pop up so I guess I'm not unsubscribed.  Sorry for the
fuss.
Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:20:52 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Hello, Chuck!


> > . . .  In his book "The First
> > and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
> > bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
> > wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
> > knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
> > Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this. . . .
>
> Is there anyone on the Allied side that can confirm that this was done?

    There are documented accounts where both sides did this sort of
thing. To my knowledge, it was not common practice, but things in the
air did happen.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

 >

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 21:30:45 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <nechama@BOREALIS.COM>
Subject: Polish Jews

Hi!

I ama grad student in London doing research on Economic Warfare during World
War II.

I just read a document saying that the Polish Government was interested in
arranging relief shipments from Portugal for the Jews in the Ghettos.
Apparently the UK was considering allowing through the blockade shipments
of "not more than 4 tons of parcels monthly containing foodstuffs native to
Portugal and not of a kind imported through the blockade."

Am I crazy, or does this sound a little unlikely?

Am I correct in assuming that this was just a way to get around the
blockade?  Why else would the Polish Government be interested in making
sure the Jews in the Ghettos were taken care of?

Has anyone heard of this before?

***************************************************************************

Nechama Cox                                         ()        ()
                                                    ||        ||
nechama@borealis.com                                ||        ||
                                                  <~~~~>    <~~~~>
27 Heathway Court                                  {@@}      {@@}
Finchley Road and West Heath Road                  {**}      {**}
Hampstead, London                                  {@@}      {@@}
NW3 7TS                                            ----      ----
                                                  /    \    /    \
(081) 458-6510                                   |______|  |______|

**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 14:37:24 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  Book Review

>Just found this book review in the Jan-Feb 1995 edition of Armor magazine
>from the U.S. Army' Armor Center at Fort Knox, KY:
>
>Standard Guide to U.S. World War II Tanks and Artillery by Konrad F.
>Schreier Jr., Krause Publications, 700 East State Street, Iola, Wis. 54990.
>$24.95

Thanks, I for one am interested!

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Matthew M. Savoie           |  "There is only one tactical principal that   |
>Western New England College |    that remains unchanged.  It is to inflict  |
>1215 Wilbraham Road         |    the maximum amount of death, wounds, and   |
>Box 1830                    |    destruction in the minimum amount of time."|
>Springfield, MA 01119       |              - General George S. Patton, Jr.  |
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:37:10 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Senator Robert Dole

        Wasn't Dole with the 10th Mountain Division in Italy when he was
wounded.  I saw it on a documentary about mountain troops a couple years ago,
unless I've gotten Mr Dole mixed up with some other politician.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:38:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lend-Lease Act

Hello, Kevin!



> My name is Kevin, and I am an 8th grader.  My history paper on the Lend-Lease
> Act is being submitted to a regional history contest.  I am concentrating on
> the events leading up to the passage of the Act.  My teacher says that i need
> to add some primary sources to my paper.  Can anyone out there help me?  Are any
>     of you WWII veterans who remember this?

    You might read a book called "Fifty Ships that Saved the World"
and I cannot think of the author currently. It is a paperback that
came out some years ago, and goes into the area of your research in
great detail.

    Plus almost any between-the-war history of the US will deal with
this topic.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:16:52 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb

A hypothetical question for those who know more about FDR.  If all else
had remained the same, but Roosevelt had not died in April, 1945, would
he have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in August 1945?

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 15:55:28 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine

Laurie,

        You write:

> The survey is quite long, and broken into topics called, "The next war",
> "Germany and Japan", "The atomic bomb", "High command", and "Truman and
> transition".  I have a very poor photocopy if anyone is interested in the
> rest of it.

        I would love to get a copy of this survey.  It sounds rather
fascinating, especially if viewed with 20/20 hindsight.  Please let me
know if it is possible to get copy and, if so, how much it would cost.
Thanks.

                Joe Barone
                m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 14:13:28 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

As I recall, the rescue effort was called off because of a report that a
U-boat was in the area.  Any ship dead in the water waiting to board
survivors would have been a sitting duck.  There actually was a German
sub nearby; U-74 picked up three sailors from the Bismarck.
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us





On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, John Davis wrote:

> I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
> was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
> how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then
> decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
> go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
> light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
> receive any type of censure for doing this?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
> Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:38:08 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

>
> As I recall, the rescue effort was called off because of a report that a
> U-boat was in the area.  Any ship dead in the water waiting to board
> survivors would have been a sitting duck.  There actually was a German
> sub nearby; U-74 picked up three sailors from the Bismarck.
> Jim Curry
> kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us
>
There were several subs in the area (among them U.556 which literally
had a sitting duck shot on the broadside of King Georpe V and other
ships in that group, but he had to torpedoes aboard).

No sub was in a real proximity with the last action though, U.74 came at
least a day later and picked up these men quite a bit from the actual
sinking of Bismarck.

The Germans had a line of 5 or 6 subs to assist Bismarck but only 2 got
anywhere near it. U.74 was supposed to get the War Diary from Lutjens but
was too late.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:58:33 -0500
From:    "Peter I. Hidas" <PHIDAS@RUNT.DAWSONCOLLEGE.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

During the war, that is in 1944, <I was a ten years old boy and witnessed
Red Army soldiers firing on chutes as they descended on Budapest during
the siege of the Royal Castle. They ceased firing once they discovered
that the parachutes were delivering supplies.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:03:43 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: brief history of "gekokujo" (relates to August 1945 coup attempt)

        In the mid-'twenties Japan was governed by a sort of parliamentary
system dominated by two political parties (although these were a bit more
loosely organized than the typical western political party).  The Seiyukai
party favored expansion abroad.  In foreign and fiscal policy it was the more
daring of the two, willing to undertake deficit spending in order to boost the
military budget and expand the armed forces.  The Seiyukai's most famous figure
was General Giichi Tanaka, who held the post of Prime Minister for several
years (up until 1928).  This was the "author" of the notorious "Tanaka
Memorial," which has been called the Japanese "Mein Kampf," although in fact,
as far as can be determined, it never existed at all as an actual document.
Tanaka's "memorial" was more in the form of the Prime Minister's philosophical
expousal of an expansionist policy, believing that only by bringing needed
resources under Japanese control could the nation survive and prosper, and
willing to undertake a military solution to bring this about.  The Seiyukai was
also militantly anti-Communist on the home front.  There were two very severe
crack-downs on Japanese Communists during Tanaka's premiership.   Abroad,
Tanaka's government looked to keep the situation in northern China, the first
and most obvious area of Japanese "interests," as fluid as possible so as to be
ripe for later intervention.  With this in mind, Japanese troops twice
intervened to keep Chiang Kai-Shek's Kuomintang from bringing the northern area
under control during Chiang's great unification campaign to subdue the various
independent warlords.  Oddly enough, the Seiyukai did have some interest in a
more progressive program of social welfare in Japan, for instance enacting some
long-overdue child labor laws.  I should also mention that both parties were
tainted by the widespread corruption characteristic of Japanese parliamentary
politics at this time (the Seiyukai probably a little less than its adversary
the Minseito).  Some of the wave of assasinations which were to mark the early
1930's were directed specifically against business tycoons thought to be the
source of some of this graft, and the fight against corruption leant some
legitimacy and sympathy to the young radical assassins.
        One of the first major political assasinations, and also one of the
first acts of junior Army officers pursuing their own independent foreign
policy, occurred in June 1928.  Officers of the Kwantung Army, stationed in
northern China and tasked with the protection of the Manchurian railway (to
which the Japanese had rights, including the right to patrol a thin corridor
along the railway for security purposes), plotted the assasination of Chang
Tso-lin, the warlord who controlled mineral-rich Manchuria.  Warlord Chang
travelled in an armored train, but there was one spot where a spur used by
Chang's train passed under the Japanese-owned Manchurian railway.  With the
help of engineers (who fashioned a special shaped charge for the mission), a
powerful charge was set off just as Chang's train passed under the Japanese
rail bridge.  This had the desired effect, and Chang Tso-lin died of his
injuries.  However, the effect in Japan was quite different than that
anticipated.  The Emporer himself (whose role in the Japanese government was
in practice almost exclusively advisory) demanded the culprits in this
international outrage be punished.  Tanaka agreed, but met such fierce
resistance from the Army, especially the War Minister, that he backed down, and
refused to prosecute the officers responsible.  As a result, the Emporer let it
be known he would accept Tanaka's resignation as Prime Minister, and the
rival Minseito party came to power.  Tanaka himself, who had quite an appetite
for licquor and women, died in 1929, dropping dead from a heart attack as he
returned home from a night of partying at a geisha house.
        The Minseito was far more conservative than the Seiyukai in some
respects.  They were less a group of military expansionists and more a party of
banking and big business.  While they were far more willing to look for
international cooperation in foregin policy, on the home front their fiscal
conservatism gained many enemies in the military.  Balanced budgets meant
shrinking funds for the military, and their move to return to the gold standard
meant severe unemployment and belt-tightening among large segments of the
Japanese population.  This was the soil in which "gekokujo," the "bottom
overturning the top," was to flourish.
        In 1930 the government of Prime Minister Hamaguchi, having won the
support of the more moderate admirals of the Japanese Navy, decided to sign the
Washington Naval Armaments Treaty.  This had been hotly debated, and wildly
opposed by many of the more hard-line members of the Navy itself, because it
accepted an inferior position for the Japanese Navy vis-a-vis the US and
Britain.  The earlier London Treaty had already limited the Japanese to three
battleships for every five possessed by the US.  The Washington agreement
extended the limitations to cruisers as well, and the Americans pressed for a
ratio of ten (US) to six (Japanese).  The Japanese argued for at least ten to
seven (citing for instance the far greater capacity to rapidly build new ships
in wartime possessed by the US), but eventually Hamaguchi agreed to the 10:6
ratio on paper, with a "handshake" agreement by the US not to actually build
beyond the 10:7 ratio.  There was much criticism of this decision on
nationalistic grounds, and in November 1930 it came to a head when Hamaguchi
was assasinated by a member of an extremist right-wing nationalist organization
(such secret societies proliferating rapidly in the period now beginning).
        The year 1931 was a watershed in this policy of deliberate,
politically-motivated military insubordination.  In September of that year,
having failed to gain control of Manchuria following the death of Chang
Tso-lin, the Kwantung Army arranged a faked act of sabotage against their
railroad, using this as an excuse to proceed with a military occupation of the
entire province to "restore order."  The Japanese Army high command and the
government had both been made aware of this contemplated action, and the
government ordered the Army to stop it.  A general was therefore dispatched to
personally journey to Manchuria and order the dissidents to desist.  It was bad
enough that categorical orders were not issued by radio, but the emissary
dispatched showed an amazing lack of urgency.  When he arrived in Manchuria,
instead of hastening to Kwantung Army HQ to stop the impending action, he
allowed himself to be diverted into spending the night at a fashionable geisha
house before pursuing his mission.  This was a "win-win" situation for the
Army.  If the coup failed, they could still claim without strictly lying that
they had made an attempt to stop it, and they would have a senior officer on
the spot to save face by making sure the proper heads rolled.  On the other
hand, if the takeover succeeded, they could still deny direct complicity and
claim they had tried unsuccessfully to intervene, while the Army would benefit
greatly in material, strategic, and political terms from the action.  Needless
to say, before this officer could intervene the Kwantung Army was swiftly and
smoothly occupying the entire province.  This was
a paradigm to be repeated many times in the upcoming five years, as the Army
command distanced itself from actual complicity in the acts of its more radical
junior officers, but reaped the rewards whenever such acts succeeded.  Even
more illustrative of the Army attitude were two other occurrances in 1931.  In
March a group of generals plotted a seizure of power, and in October two
colonels planned a coup to take control of the government following the
successful coup in Manchuria.  Both plots were discovered by the Army high
command, but in both cases the conspirators were not charged or even
reprimanded with anything worse than a transfer to some position out of harm's
way and out of sight of the government.   The message, one would think, was
pretty clear.
        These signals sent out by the Army's upper echelons were not long in
bearing fruit.  In February 1932 Finance Minister Inoue, who had consistantly
opposed increases in the military budgets, was assasinated.  The next month
another assassin thrust a pistol into the back of the head of Baron Dan, head
of the Mitsui banking and industrial conglomerate, as the tycoon was getting
into his car, and pulled the trigger (another blow against high-level
corruption by the money interests).  Then, in May, Prime Minister Inukai, a
distinguished gentleman of 73 years, was shot down in his own official
residence, in broad daylight, by a group of uniformed naval cadets (Army cadets
and civilian members of extremist right-wing groups were also part of the
plot).  In many of these outrages, the assassins allegedly planned to commit
suicide immediately after their actions in order to apologize, but in fact it
seldom worked out that way.  The subsequent trial of the leading conspirators
was a media circus, which provided a spectacular national platform for the
radicals to air their views (the "testimony" of the accused frequently took the
form of long, nationalist speeches which the prosecution in no way tried to
obstruct.  This is the particular episode that makes up the bulk of Byas' book
"Government by Assasination").  Eventually 110,000 signatures were collected on
appeals to the judges for leniency given the obvious sincerity and patriotic
motives of the accused.  One group, to show the earnestness of their support,
enclosed with their letter a jar containing one little finger from each member,
neatly severed and pickled.   None of the conspirators was sentenced to death,
and virtually all were out on parole within a few years.  Far from disavowing
the actions of the assassins, the Army command let the government know that if
it a new government was to be formed strictly according to "parliamentary
principles" (i.e., by the majority party from its own members, without
including the military), that further disquiet within the Army was a certainty
(the implication being that the high command would be unable to restrain its
junior officers from similar acts in the future).
        While the rule of terror spread with the tacit support of the Army
command on the home front, the officers of the Kwantung Army were pushing their
expansionist policy with concrete acts abroad.  Although the Navy tended to be
more moderate, having a strong centrist faction (one of the leaders of the
moderates being Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai, the Navy Minister at the time of the
August 1945 coup, also Prime Minister for a time prior to Pearl Harbor).  It
was also "less xenophobic," to quote Ronald Spector (from "Eagle Against The
Sun").  Still, in 1932 Japanese marines in Shanghai tangled with a Chinese army
that came too close to what they regarded as their sphere of influence, an
incident in part fabricated to draw attention away from Manchuria, the
occupation of which was being widely protested on the international scene.  But
the Japanese program was continuing apace.  In March 1932 the "independent"
nation of Manchukuo was proclaimed in the former Chinese province of Manchuria,
and in September of that year it was officially recognized by the Japanese
government, whose puppet it was in every sense.  In 1933 the Japanese pushed
even further, quickly overwhelming the adjacent province of Jehol in two steps.
They also pushed armed forces across the Great Wall into the next province,
Hopei, not gaining full control, but forcing a negotiated settlement with the
Chinese commander in Peking, the "Ho-Umezo Agreement" (yes, the same General
Yoshijiro Umezu who was Chief-of-Staff of the Japanese Army in August 1945-- in
1933 he was commander of the Japanese forces in China), which gave the Japanese
increasing influence and opportunity in that province.  The Japanese also in
1933 made successful efforts to subvert Inner Mongolia, essentially buying off
the most powerful local warlord, Li (who then helped them in military actions
to force open the door to Jehol), and Prince Teh Wang, a decendant of Genghis
Khan.  A puppet government for Inner Mongolia was formed with Wang as its chief
and Li as his number two, totally dependent on Japanese money and military
support (sorry, Greg, that's as close as I'm gonna get to Taana Tuuvu or
whatever).  The net result of these efforts was impressive.  I forget the exact
figures (I read them in Edgar Snow's "Red Star Over China"), but by 1936 the
Japanese controlled anywhere from two-thirds to 75-80%, depending on the
commodity in question, of what had formerly been China's deposits of oil, coal,
and iron ore.
        In China proper, meanwhile, interesting developments were also
occuring.  Originally Stalin's foreign policy had supported the large and
powerful coalition movement of the Kuomintang, and the small Chinese Communist
Party had been ordered to join and support the KMT.  But in April 1927 Chiang
Kai-Shek, an anti-Communist at heart, turned on the Communists.  A worker's
strike in Shanghai was the occasion for a massacre, some 10,000 being killed by
Chiang's army, and nationwide about 15,000 Communists were tracked down and
disposed of.  Chou En-Lai, the top Communist subordinate to Chiang during the
coalition days, barely escaped Shanghai.  Mao Tse-tung, still a virtual
unknown, began to regroup the movement as a guerilla army in the hills.  While
unwilling to come to blows with the stronger Japanese (he backed down when they
intervened to stop his great unification campaign, allowing the status of
northern China to remain fluid and beyond his direct control-- that's why
Chiang could not have his capital in Peking, he simply didn't control it),
Chiang went after Mao's guerilla movement with everything he had.  Beginning in
1930, he launched four huge anti-guerilla campaigns, all unsuccessful (although
he did manage to capture and execute Mao's young wife, along with her even
younger sister).  Finally, in the summer of 1934, advised by the German general
Von Seekt, architect of the Reichswehr, and employing some 900,000 troops and
about 300 aircraft capable of ground attack, Chiang's forces undertook a
deliberate encircling movement, constructing a circle of fortifications with
concrete bunkers, machineguns, and barbed wire around the guerilla territory.
Inside was Mao with 140,000 followers.  By August the monumental encirclement
was nearly complete.  In October, with about 100,000 men (including only 35
women), Mao's forces succeeded by the barest margin in breaking out of the
trap, thus beginning the fabled "Long March."  Chased all around China by
Chiang's forces, travelling through unbelievably primitive areas inhabited in
some cases by tribes barely out of the stone age, they eventually trekked some
6,000 miles, before finally being able to establish a secure new base around
Yenan in the northwest of the country.  According to Communist figures around
80,000 of them died along the way, but a nucleus escaped.  Mao's forces were
blockaded in Yenan, but Chiang did not have the strength any more to try to
finish them off.  The Yenan period became a time of gathering strength and
working out programs embracing virtually every facet of Chinese life-- it was a
laboratory for Mao's people to perfect the methods by which they eventually won
the country.  Meanwhile, the chief portion of the blockading Kuomintang forces
was actually made up of the refugee army of the Manchurian warlord Chang
Xueh-liang, son of the assasinated Chang Tso-lin.  The younger Chang never
accepted the Japanese murder of his father and domination of his homeland, and
he yearned to fight the Japanese, but was sent by Chiang Kai-shek against the
Communists instead.  Thus in 1936 Chang Xueh-liang used a visit by Chiang
Kai-shek to kidnap the national leader.  The Communists were informed, and sent
Chou En-lai to negotiate with Chiang.  A new agreement was worked out, wherein
Chiang in return for his freedom and continued support in power promised to
join with the Communists to fight the Japanese.  The brief resurgence of
Chinese fighting spirit against Japanese incursions was a major contributing
factor to the starting of the full-scale war against China in 1937.
        While these portentious events were proceeding in China, the 2/26
Incident of 1936 rocked the home front.  Again a wave of assassinations was
launched by dissident young officers.  In addition to the attempts against
Admiral Suzuki and Prime Minister Okeda described in my earlier posts (Okeda's
escape was aided when a relative of his, gunned down outside while trying to
flee, was mistaken for the Prime Minister), the rebels successfully murdered
Keeper of the Privy Seal Lord Makoto Saito (a retired admiral who was another
of the Navy's moderates), Finance Minister Takahashi, and General Watanabe,
Inspector General of Military Education (hence chief advisor on postings and
promotions).  An unsuccessful attempt was also made on the life of the
Emporer's Privy Councilor, Prince Saionji.  The rebels briefly controlled
Tokyo, and surrounded the Imperial Palace.  This grim episode brought down at
least a semblance of actual retribution from the Army command (some alleged
they simply executed the ringleaders with a bare attempt at due process in
order to cover up complicity at higher levels), but it also marked the
beginning of the Army's complete ascendancy in domestic politics.  The Army
devised a very effective method of control, through the person of the War
Minister, who in practice was always a serving officer of the Army.  If the War
Minister resigned, his replacement could by practice only be named with the
approval of a triumvirate of Army officers-- the outgoing War Minister, the
Chief-of-Staff of the Army, and the Inspector General of Military Education had
to agree on the successor.  If these gentlemen refused to recommend a
replacement, or could not agree (a convenient diplomatic cover for refusal), it
amounted to a vote of no confidance in the government from the Army.  Since the
War Minister was a cabinet position, and no government could have a cabinet
with the position unfilled, a timely resignation from the War Minister could
bring down any government not meeting the Army's approval.  In fact, General
(later Field Marshal) Shunroku Hata, later commander in chief of the huge
Japanese armies in China (1941-44), did exactly that, resigning as War Minister
in July 1940 in order to bring down the government of the moderate-minded Prime
Minister Admiral Yonai.  This was a major step in paving the way for the chief
of the Army's dominant expansionist faction, General Hideki Tojo, to eventually
gain the Prime Minister's post, and lead the nation into war with the west.  I
should also add that even with more control over the dissidents after February
1936 (and the dissidents, of course, had less reason to rebel as the Army and
the nation came more and more to adopt the basic outlines of their program),
the threat of assassination of opponents still existed.  When another of the
moderate admirals, Isoroku Yammamoto, was Vice-Minister of the Navy, radicals
had supposedly placed a 100,000-yen price on his head, and his subordinates
used to joke grimly that riding in the Vice-Minister's car was to be avoided at
all costs.  Other moderates in the Navy eventually promoted Yammamoto to
commander-in-chief of the combined fleet in 1939, in large part to free him
from this threat, as it was felt he would be much safer aboard his flagship.
This is the background of political manipulation through insubordination and
assassination which forms the context and historical background for the August
1945 coup attempt.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 01:04:10 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Peruvian Ecuadoran War

Peru, Ecuador, the war of 1941...

>From "Jane's combat aircraft of WWII", and from information provided by
other members of WWII-L, the following aircraft are listed as being in
service with their airforces:

Peru
  Bombers   : Fairey Gordon, Douglas 8A-3P, Caproni Ca.135, Caproni
              Ca.310 Libeccio
  Fighters  : Curtiss Falcon, Curtiss Hawk, Chance-Vought Corsair,
              North-American NA-50
  Recon.    : Douglas O-17, Fairey Fox
  Transport : Barkley-Grow 8TP, Grumman G-21A, Stinson, Junkers
              Ju 52, Faucett F.19
  Trainers  : Stearman, Vultee 54
Ecuador
  Fighters  : Republic P-35
  Transport : Junkers Ju 52/3m, Bellanca
  Trainers  : North American NA-16, Curtiss-Wright R-19,
              Curtiss-Wright 16E, Fairchild M-62, Ryan PT-20

I searched for some more information on some of these:

The North-American NA-50 was a development of the NA-26, itself a
development with retractable landing gear of the NA-16, the precursor of te
AT-6. The NA-50 was a single-seater with a 870hp Wright R-1820-77 engine.
It was armed with two 7.62mm Colt-Browning guns, and could carry up to
550lb of bombs. It had a maximum speed of 475km/h, a range of 1040km and a
ceiling of 9750m. Peru bought seven NA-50s in early 1939. These saw action
in 1941. Two were lost, one shot down by AAA and one lost due to premature
explosion of an underwing bomb. The similar, but heavier armed NA-68 was
built for Thailand, but requisitioned by the USAAF, that used them as P-64
trainers. (US Army Air Force Fighters, part 2, by Gordon & Swanborough)

The Faucett F-19 was an eight-seat high-wing transport of mixed
construction, powered by a single P&W Hornet S1E3-G engine. The version in
service with the Peruvian military was equipped as seaplane.
(Jane's combat aircraft of WWII).

The Caproni Ca.135 was a twin-engined bomber of mixed contruction. Peru
bought 32, probably powered by 800hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso engines.

The Northrop/Douglas 8A was the export version of the A-17 Nomad, a light
single-engined bomber. This was a development with retractable landing
gear of the earlier A-16. The basic A-17A was powered by a 825hp
P&W R-1535-13 engine, had a crew of two, and was armed with four
forward-firing .3in machine guns and one flexible gun in the aft cockpit.
They had a speed of 354km/h, a ceiling of 5915m and a range of 1920km.
The DB-8 was widely exported, and license-built in Sweden as the B.5. But
its performance was not very good. Dutch attempts to use the DB-8 as a
fighter were a failure. The DB-8A-3P was a high-altitude version for
Peru, of which ten were built. The USAAF also seized 34 more DB-8-A5
aircraft built for Peru, and used them under the designation A-33.
(Combat Aircraft of World War Two, Elke C. Weal)

The reference to the Douglas O-17 is probably an error. The O-17 was
actually built by Consolidated. But the Aviacion Naval Peruana received six
Douglas O-38P reconaissance aircraft in 1932. The O-38P was a biplane with
an enclosed cockpit, powered by a P&W R-1690 engine. Small numbers of O-38s
were also built for the Air National Guard and the USAAC.
(Bernard Lestrade, in Le Fana de l'Aviation Avril 1993).

The Fairey Gordon was a development of the ubiquitous Fairey IIIF
reconnaissance aircraft and light bomber, with a new engine, the
Armstrong Siddeley Panther radial. The Gordon was a rigged and braced
biplane with open cockpits. In 1941 it was a clear anachronism, but in
the same year some RAF Gordons saw combat in Iraq, during a brief revolt
against British rule. Some were sold to Peru, but I did not find how many.

The reference to the 'Vought Corsair' does not clarify whether it concerns
the Vought O2U or O3U two-seat reconaissance aircraft, or the F4U fighter.
The former was certainly sold to Peru. It was a biplane powered by a P&W
R-1690 Hornet engine. Top speed was 290km/h, service ceiling 6070m. It was
armed with one forward-firing .3in and one aft-firing .3in.
(Combat Aircraft of World War Two, Elke C. Weal)

The Barkley-Grow T8P-1 was an eight-seat all-metal monoplane transport,
powered by two 400hp P&W Wasp Junior engines. Max level speed 338km/h.
(Jane's Encyclopedia of Aviation)

The Grumman G-21 is the Grumman JRF 'Goose' twin-engined amphibian.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:18:45 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

There was a short blurb on here several weeks ago about Col. Roosevelt
bumping several GI's bound for leave off a transport plane, so he could
ship a dog to his wife.  I suspect this may have been the incident that
set off the delay.  (BTW, in the 1944 election campaign, wasn't his father
FDR accused of doing something similar with Fala, his scottish terrier?)

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:24:26 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Senator Robert Dole

As a native Kansan, I think you are are required to know some of the
details.  On April 14, 1944, Lt. Dole was attempting to lead his unit
up some hill in Italy.  Machine gun fire ripped his right arm and shoulder.
I think he spent some time in between the lines before he was rescued.
He was sent back to the States and put in a VA hospital in Topeka (?).  No
one expected him to live and he got down to less than 100 pounds.
(I did see a picture of him at the time and he looked like he came out
of Dachau.)  Unbelievably, he regained his will to live, went through
rehabilitation, and graduated from law school.  Personally, I think he
was (and probably still is) too mean to die.  (No offense meant to any
supporters of Dole; I think he has done a lot for the state of Kansas.)

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:52:47 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

At 1:01 PM 2/6/95, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:
[..]
>>"Concerning the absoluteness of her defeat there can be no doubt.  The time
>>lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable
>>might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a
>>more rapid and decisive determination of national plicies."
>
>Has anybody ever looked into what the japanese people really knew at that
>point in time? Their sources of information were loading them up with
>porpoganda about how they were winning, and suddenly they didn't...

I realize that the American Air Force had reasons to make the bombing look
effective, but here are some quotes from _Mission Accomplished_, Prepared
by the Assistant Chief of Air Staff -- Intelligence Headquarters Army Air
Forces, 1946.

p.26  "While Tokyo radio was trying to make the Japanese and the world at
large believe that the fire raids were merely hardening the people's will
to resist, the actual effects were far different.  Mr. Koizuma, Chief of
the Plice Bureau of the Home Ministry, had this to say:

'Morale change was chiefly due to a loss of certainty of victory, which
grew through successive defeats into a loss of faith in government news,
then in government safeguarding civilians, and finally into a losss of
faith in the military.  Control measures withing the purview of the police
were largely measures dealing with rumors, fine and impironment in a few
cases, plice visits, lecturing and converting persons to whom rumors were
traceable.'"

"' United States leaflets grew in influence until thery were widely believe
in June and July 1945...'"

p 27.  Dr Kawai, chief Editorial writer of the Nippon Times (B.A. M.A. Ph.D
Stanford)

"'When the B-29 raids began the people really knew the war was lost.
Before that they knew some islands had been lost, but islands mean nothing
to the ordinay man.  When the big raids came, the feeling of defeat began.
But the B-29 raids were beyond the point of criticism.  People felt that
they were all in for it, and there was no purpose in criticism, at least
not increase of criticisim of the government.'"

"' The amount of defeat feeling varied with the individual, but by the time
the Marianas were captured, the intellectuals were certain the the war was
lost.  The real terror for the people came with those leaflets naming the
places to be bombed.  When you did that and then bombed the places named,
then there was real terror.'"

"The visible evidence of destruction made Japanese propaganda, minimimizing
the danger from the B-29's look sick."  There follows an interesting
"mathematical proof" by the propagandists that the US would run out of
B-29's and aircrews.

[..]

>In either event, this is a rather moot argument. The bombs were dropped, and
>there is little point in wallowing in guilt for what was then, the proper
>decision (IMHO).
>
>We can differ in our opinions yet maintain mutual respect. Others can chime
>in on both sides because this is an engrossing topic, but I think I've said
>enough.
>
>Take care, John, and thanx fer th' response.

Agree 100%.  For the record, given the times I think it would have been
impossible to reach another conclusion.  I just like looking at the other
side of the question.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:51:00 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Enola Gay cartoon

Apparently one of the news services ran a cartoon showing the Enola Gay
dropping a bureaucrat out the bomb bay with a fist full of papers, saying
"Listen up, imperialist lackeys! I'm from the Smithsonian and I'm rewriting
history! I say the Japanese were victims! I sayyyyyy......."



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 20:35:54 -0500
From:    Henry Herz <herzh@CPVA.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: admin (sorry)

THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF FASCINATING INFORMATION I SUBSCRIBE TO WWII-L TO
READ!  PLEASE POST MORE PERSONAL COMPUTER DETAILS TO FURTHER JAM MY MAILBOX!
>
>         Joe, I have no idea what the hell happened but you probably wound up
> with a bunch of messages bounced from my account.  Some force beyond my
> control
> apparently quintupled the amount of space my directory was taking up.  The
> computer folks here still don't know what caused the problem, but they gave
> me
> 10,000 additional blocks while they work on it so the problem should be
> cleared
> up as far as it effects you...sorry for the inconvenience, but I didn't do
> nuthin' (I left Thursday with approx 560 blocks used out of an allowance of
> 2000 + 100 permitted overdraft.  I came back to see my usage at 3400+!!  Even
> after I deleted all my messages that arrived in the last three days I was
> still
> at 2600+ and couldn't do anything (like compress or alert you with a message
> or
> even set "no-mail" because it was telling me I was over quota.  Again, my
> apologies for any inconvenience this caused.
> PS I "speed-deleted" some 100+ messages, not counting at least 7 that
> bounced,
> so I probably missed a bunch of good stuff.
>
> PPS; sorry, Joe, but I think I referred to the LUPO as a "destroyer escort,"
> not exactly accurate either but I like to use the term because "torpedo boat"
> creates confusion with MTB's, PT's, etc...
>
> Abjectly yours
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 20:31:51 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

On Feb 5 Sidney Allinson quoted the first and last lines of a WWII folk
song, sung to the tune of the Colonel Bogey March, that commented on
Hitler's anatomy.  Without repeating Sidney's contribution, let me
add the middle two lines:

        "Goering's are rather awf'lly small.
         Himmler is soewhat sim'lar,"

In Hitler's case, there has been some speculation that this may have
been true.  See Hans W. Gatzke, "Hitler and Psychohistory:  A Review
Article,"  _American Historical Review_ 78 (April, 1973): 394ff, and
the correspondence concerning the article in the AHR 78 (October, 1973):
1155ff. (I'll bet that sends some people to musty stacks to check old
some old periodicals!)  I don't know enough about the current state of
scholarship on Hitler's personal life to comment and I couldn't find
anything in Joachim Fest's Hitler_ to substantiate it.  John Toland's
_Adolf Hitler_ cites a Soviet autopsy (p. 1223) that might support the
claim.

In my Historiography class I have students each read one article from a
list on psychohistory, including the article I cite above.  This
particular issue sometimes gets mentioned in the oral reports, much to
the interest of the rest of the class.  Last year I told students that
I was uncomfortable repeating the lyrics of the song to the class, I would
leave a copy in a manila folder on the desk and those who were interested
could look at it.  I had to step lively to avoid being run over.

Terry Lindell
Wartburg College (for whom I am not speaking)
Department of History
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

PS:  Sidney,  Several weeks ago you asked about a current address for
the Society for Military History.  I couldn't respond then because of
technical difficulties.  If you still need it, let me know.  Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 21:01:19 -0600
From:    "C.K. Bryant" <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Trying to avoid flame (was RE: admin (sorry)

Joe and the others who weren't offended by Mike's post:

Knowing that the ADMIN is the abbreviation to indicate that a post is
administratively related, I was not at all offended by Mike Yaklich's
post.  However, the following response struck me as being totally
uncalled for.  I thought of responding to Mr. Herz directly, but figured
I would be asking for flames.  So in an effort to get support from the
other regulars at WWII in the event of further flames from Mr. Herz, I
posted here.  I may need some support guys.  Thanks,

C.K. Bryant

-----added post-----
Date:         Mon, 6 Feb 1995 20:35:54 -0500
From: Henry Herz <herzh@CPVA.SAIC.COM>
Subject:      Re: admin (sorry)

> THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF FASCINATING INFORMATION I SUBSCRIBE TO
> WWII-L TO READ!  PLEASE POST MORE PERSONAL COMPUTER DETAILS TO FURTHER
> JAM MY MAILBOX!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:24:02 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties

 X-To: EVANS@URVAX.BITNET



 From Tim McFeely (ad658@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV) at Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:25:38 -0500

 Tim wrote:
 > This thread has argued about anticipated or projected casualties.
 > 60,000 to 1,000,000. As far as I am concerned 1 was too many (bombs away),
 > but I didn't write this post to argue that point.

 The following documents were obtained from MacArthur Memorial Archives,
 Norfolk, VA., and are germane to the point at hand:



                                                          _COPY_

  PRIORITY                                                16 June 1945


  TO  :  GHQ AFPAC (MACARTHUR)

  FROM:  WASHINGTON

  NR  :  W-17477  15TH


      Request by 17 June (Washington) the estimate you are using for
  planning purposes of battle casualties in OLYMPIC up to D+90.

                                            Marshall



      TOO:  160615 I
      TOR:  SC MSG CEN 160831 I
      TOR:  AG R/C AFPAC (O) 160942 I
      MCN:  XB 151

      CORRECTED DISTRIBUTION:

         _ACTION COPY TO_: G-1
         _INFORMATION COPIES TO:

            G-3
            G-4
            AG - Director Opns Div

 =============================================================================


      PRIORITY                                                     COPY

                                                     G-1     17 JUNE 1945


      FROM:   CINCAFPAC

      TO  :   WARCOS


      Estimate of OLYMPIC battle casualties for planning purposes (C-19571)
      Reurad W-17477 as follows:

                            D to D+30:  50,800
                        D+30  to D+60:  27,150
                        D+60  to D+90:  27,100


      The foregoing are estimated total battle casualties from estimated
      return to duty members are deducted. Not included in the fpregoing are
      non battle casualties which are estimated at 4200 for each 30 day period.


===============================================================================

                                                      _COPY_

     URGENT                                          19 JUNE 1045


     FROM:  General Marshall
     TO  :  General MacArthur (Personal)
     WAR  18528 19 June

            The President is very much concerned as to the number of casualties
     we will receive in the OLYMPIC operation. This will be discussed with
     the President about 3:30 PM today Washington time. Is the estimate given
     in your C-19571 of 50,800 for the period of D to D+30 on pland for
     medical installations to be established or is it your best estimate of
     the casualties you anticipate from the operational viewpoint. Please
     rush answer.       End of part 1 of 2-
                All Documents marked:  REGRADED UNCLASSIFIED
                                       ORDER SEC ARMY BY TAG PER
                                            720354
    Carl Wernke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:24:00 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties (pt 2 of 2)

 X-To: EVANS@URVAX.BITNET



 URGENT                                                      _COPY_

                                                             19 June 1945
 FROM:  General MacArthur

 TO  :  General Marshall (Personal)

 C-19848

     Estimate of casualties contained in my C-19571 was a routine
 report submitted direct by a staff section without higher reference
 for medical and replacement planning purposes. The estimate was
 derived from the casualty rates in Normandy and Okinawa the highest
 our forces have sustained as 3.8 men per thousand per day. The total
 force involved was estimated as 681,000 with one  half engaged the
 first 15 days and the entire strength thereafter. The estimate is
 purely academic and routine and was made for planning alone. It had
 not come to my prior attention. I do not anticipate such a high rate
 of loss. I believe the operation presents less hazards of excessive
 loss than any other that has been suggested and that its decisive
 effect will eventuall save lives by eliminating wasteful operations
 of a nondecisive character. I regard the operation as the most
 economical one in effort and lives that is possible. In this respect
 it must be remembered that the several preceeding months will involve
 practically no losses in ground troops and that sooner or later a
 decisive ground attack must be made. The hazard and loss will be
 greatly lessened if an attack is launched from Siberia sufficiently
 ahead of our target date to commit the enemy to major combat. I
 most earnestly recommend no change in OLYMPIC. Additional subsidiary
 attacks will simply build up our final total casualties.






 Sent Telecon:  181225Z


                                          AG Records has Orig

                      Document Stamped:
                                      REGRADED UNCLASSIFIED
                                      ORDER SEC ARMY BY TAG PER
                                            720354
                      End part 2 of 2

  Carl Wernke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:33:05 -0600
From:    Chuck Johnson <cjohnson@GONIX.GONIX.COM>
Subject: Japanese Nukes

> > > >...BTW, Japan does have a nuclear program now which has
> > > >produced warheads _and_ missiles which are arguably superior to the
> > > >American and Soviet (Russian) ones....
> > > >Cheers,
> > > >David Rising
> > > >

> David-

> Exsqueeze me!!!  I have NEVER heard that the Japanese have nuclear weapons
> (reactors, yes).  That would be in violation of their constitution.  My
> understanding is that only the US, former USSR, Britain, France, PRC, India,
> Israel & probably Pakistan and South Africa have nukes.  Would you please
> provide a reference for that claim for Japan.  Thanks.

> -Henry Herz

Henry,

I believe you are correct -- Japan does not have nukes and it would be a
severe violation of their "pacifist" constitution to have them -- but it
it is true that they have something approaching the capability to build
them and the missile systems to deliver them.  For an excellent fictional
account of how that could happen, I recomend "Debt of Honor" by Tom Clancy.
It's not all that far-fetched.  Well, maybe it is -- who really knows?

That being said, this subject is very far off-topic -- at least the modern
portion of it is.  If you want to discuss the Tom Clancy book, I suggest
the Usenet Newsgroup "alt.fan.Tom_Clancy" (or close to that).  There has
been some discussion in the past.

Yours,
  -- Chuck Johnson -- cjohnson@gonix.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:36:17 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: MARINE CORPS CHRONOLOG

In response to all who have given a thumb's up on a Marine Corps chronology, I
shall begin posting. The first posting will be on 10 February, since that is
the first date that anything of importance occurred Marine Corps-wise in 1945.
Thanks for the positive encouragement. Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Feb 1995 to 6 Feb 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 62 messages totalling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: BISMARK (2)
  2. WWII Music
  3. MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction (3)
  4. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC (2)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 02-07-95
  6. ME-262 (5)
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-FEB-1945
  8. GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP (2)
  9. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45 (2)
 10. Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole (4)
 11. [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45 (3)
 12. Ref: Akira-contact me please
 13. Help!-Re: [INF] USAAF 6 FEB 45
 14. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (7)
 15. USA Air Corps in North Africa
 16. INFO: Gestapo and SD (4)
 17. WEAP: More 25mm Stuff
 18. Japanese Peso (3)
 19. e-mail info
 20. 3rd Army Chronology - 05Feb45
 21. Enola Gay Exhibit (3)
 22. WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb (2)
 23. ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT
 24. unmentioned victims
 25. admin (sorry)
 26. Farewell BBs
 27. A "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit
 28. ADMIN:Bill Huber
 29. Marine Corps History
 30. North Africa
 31. DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPIC - Estimate of casualties (pt 2 of 2)
 32. INF: Operation Coronet Casualties
 33. WEAP-Napalm

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 00:18:15 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BISMARK

Please, the correct spelling is Bismarck. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:23:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII Music

Richard...
        'Glad that Airborne story warmed your frosty morning.
Dare I mention, it was over 50F here today in Victoria, B.C.  Mild weather
was the main reason we moved from Toronto, Ont., west to Canada's far
Pacific shore.

Regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:29:16 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

"Hitler knew nothing about the Final Solution..."
!
Difficult for any rational person to repeat such a theory.
Considering the blueprint for the extermination of the Jews was clearly
laid out over a decade earlier in Adolph Hitler's charming book of
futurism -- MEIN KAMPF.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:49:29 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Terry Lindell...
        Yes, aside from the vulgarity of those lyrics, it has always
intrigued me that such a commentary on Mr Hitler's gonad deficiency
later proved to be factual (if the Soviet autopsy is to be beleived).
I
I have wondered, how could such a thing have been known to the rough
soldiery early in the war?  Wondered, too, if it was an example of
MI6 (British Secret Intelligence Service) "leaking" some, ahem, private
information -- which got picked up and used in a soldiers' parody song.
On the other hand, maybe it was just one of those coincidences...

Regards -- S.A.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:49:35 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Yes, thank you, terry.
I would appreciate knowing that Military History address.

D.S.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-07-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/07 Wed.  Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Submarine RO-55, by destroyer escort THOMASON (DE-203),
              Philippine Islands area,
              15 d. 27'N., 119 d. 25'E.
             Coast defense vessel No. 53, by submarine BERGALL
              (SS-320), South China Sea,
              12 d. 04'N., 109 d. 22'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 06:42:45 -0500
From:    James Vaughan <JGVaughan@AOL.COM>
Subject: ME-262

Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?

Incidentally, I saw one of these aircraft at the Air and Space Museum in
Washington, DC about a month ago and the design and construction looked like
a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
figures of the plane.

Jim Vaughan         jgvaughan@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 07:41:22 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-FEB-1945

On 08-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 1st Army begins Operation Veritable to clear
the region between the Maas and Rhine Rivers. The British XXX Corps attacks
from the line Nijmegen-Mook, meeting light resistance except on the right
but is hampered by mines and the flooded terrain. The Canadian 2nd Division
overruns Wyler while the British 15th Division takes Kranburg. In the U.S.
1st Army sector, the 78th Division continues its attacks on Schmidt. In the
3rd Army sector, the 8th and 87th Division reach Olzheim and Ober Mehlen.
The 90th Division continues its attacks to break the Siegfried Line. The
6th Armoured Division widens and reinforces the bridgehead over the Our. In
the French 1st Army sector, the U.S. 2nd Armoured Division reaches
Fessenheim. The 1st Division moves south along the Rhine towards Chalampe,
taking Blodelsheim.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Ukraine Front restores its position southwest in
the Lake Velencei area.

Philippines - The U.S. 1st Cavalry Division mops up in the eastern suburbs
of Manila. The 37th Division reinforces the bridgehead south of the Pasig
River. The 40th Division takes a large part of McSevney Point and holds
against a series of Japanese counterattacks. The I Corps takes Lupao. The
38th Division continues a two-pronged attack against Zigzag Pass but is
still stubbornly opposed. In the 8th Army sector, the 11th Airborne
Division makes slow progress against Nichols Field.

Burma - The British 36th Division establishes a bridgehead over the Shweli
near Myitson.

The Homefront
-------------
Axis Prisoners - Thre are now 359,258 war prisoners in the U.S. - 305,876
Germans, 50,561 Italians and 2,820 Japanese.

Coach Signed - Arthur McBride, owner of the proposed Cleveland professional
team in the new All-American Football Conference, has announced the signing
of Lt. Paul Brown, USN, as the new coach of the team.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:00:03 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:49:18 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>> It has been my understanding that both germany and japan has abomb projects
>> in some stage of development during the war. Perhaps someone could provide
>> more definite info?
>
>    This is very true, however the Germans were far more along with
>their project than were the Japanese. The Japanese didn't really
>become seriously involved in this project until 1944 and even then
>only perfunctorily. The reason was that they had no scientists that
>possessed the expertise found in Germany, Britain or the US.

I'd say it was more the lack of technological base--they had plenty of
sharp minds on that side of the Pacific.  The last issue but one of
Scientific American profiled a scientist who saw westerners get the
credit for most of his discoveries (more or less innocently, and as a
result of western preconceptions, not plagiarism).  There were others
who would have been able to do the job, but the technological base for
putting it together just wasn't there in Japan.

In contrast, the Germans went down the wrong road from the start *and*
lost many of their best figures *before* the war started.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:39:24 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: ME-262

On Tue, 07 Feb 95, Jim Vaughan wrote:

>Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
>realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
>read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?
>
>Incidentally, I saw one of these aircraft at the Air and Space Museum in
>Washington, DC about a month ago and the design and construction looked like
>a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
>figures of the plane.

Also, does anyone have easy access to the monthly production figures of
the Me-262, Me-163, V-1 and V-2?  Or know where I can access this info?

Thanks.

Emery Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:19:42 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

February 8, 1945
D-Day +247

-3rd Army bridging units measured the speed of the currents in the Moselle
 at 16 ft/sec. There were losses in the river crossing.

-The main effort of the 3rd Army was still concentrated on Prum, coordinated
 with 1st Army to the north.

-VIII Corps, 4th Inf Div captures Condrenbret and Hermespand. 87th Inf Div,
 345th Inf Regiment captures Olzheim using tank destroyers with direct fire
 on 4 pill boxes to knock them out.

-XX Corps, 26th Inf Div captures fortifications in Fraulautern and
 Saarlautern-Roden.

-XIX TAC flew 314 sorties claiming 30 locomotives, 452 railroad cars, 43
 tanks and armored vehicles, 173 other vehicles, and 153 occupied buildings.
 3 planes were lost.

-The 1st sled-dog team arrived for medevac use. The snows were mostly melted
 by this time.

 "Against Montgomery's objections, Eisenhower had sided with me on the
necessity for closing to the Rhine the full length of our Allied front
before attempting to cross that river in strength. Although Ike had not yet
rejected our U.S. plan for double-envelopment of the Ruhr with a Rhine
river crossing near Frankfurt, it was generally assumed in SHAEF that
Monty held the inside track on his single-pronged offensive. But even if
Monty were to have his way on a single thrust east of the Rhine, my views
on closing all the way to the river were valid. For if we were to concentrate
all our forces on the north and hold lightly to the Swiss border, it was
essential that we could defend a line where we could not be hurt by enemy
spoiling attack. For this purpose, I argued, there was no better barrier
than the Rhine. Ike concurred for he was no less anxious than I to rid
the west bank of the Rhine of Germans before venturing across it.

 No less alluring was the opportunity that beckoned us in the Rhineland
for destruction of the enemy there. By February, 85 German divisions had
been committed west of the river. If they could be isolated and destroyed,
the enemy would be powerless to man the far bank in strength. Our primary
objective, after all, lay not in Berlin nor any other terrain feature;
rather we were primarily intent on destruction of the German army. For
once the Wehrmacht had been splintered, those other objectives would fall
easily into our hands." -Gen. Omar Bradley

Sources: _Patton's Third Army, A Chronology_ by Charles Province
         _A Soldier;'s Story_ by Gen. Omar N. Bradley
Typos: mine...

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 07:48:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Hello, Tim!


> I beleive Dole was serving with the 10th Mountain Division in Italy
> during the time he was wounded.  Please correct me if I am wrong but
> that is what my memory tells me.  TAS

    This is correct. His injuries kept in the hospital for years
after the war. He lost a kidney, and the loss of usage of his left
hand and arm as already pointed out.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

 >
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:00:45 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: ME-262

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995, James Vaughan wrote:

> Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
> realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
> read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?

About 1300. The shortage of pilots was as severe as that of fuel. At the
end of the war the production centers adopted a policy of "If you need a
plane, then come and get it." Most Me 262s were never flown.

> a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
> figures of the plane.

Me 262A-1a:

Two 900kg Junkers Jumo 004B engines. Total engine life 25hrs, to be
overhauled every 10hrs. 2570 liter of fuel, 87 octane mixed with oil.
Engines could not be restarted above 4000m.

Wing span 12.48m, length 10.61m, height 3.84m. Empty weight 4420kg, max
loaded weight 6396kg.

Top speed 870km/h at 6000m, 827km/h at sea level, 820km/h at 10000m.
not-to-exceed (diving) speed 960km/h.  Single-engine safety speed 290km/h,
normal touchdown speed 200km/h.  Service ceiling 11450m.  Initial climb
1200m/min, 660m/min at 6000m, 330m/sec at 9000m. Climb to 6000m in 6.8min,
to 9000m in 13.1min, to 10000m in 26min.  Roll rate 360 degrees in 3.8sec
at 645km/h and 1525m.  Range 1050km at 9000m.

Armed with four 30mm MK 108 cannon, 600rds/min, muzzle velocity 505m/sec.
Two with 100 rounds and two with 80 rounds.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:24:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 7 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s off to Kataoka, Shimushu Island abort
the  mission when all aircraft accidentally drop bombs prior to the bombing
run. 4 B-25s weather abort.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 11 P-51s knock out a bridge
at Hengshan; 34 P-40s hit river, road, and rail traffic from Kweiyi to
Hengshan, from Chiuchiang to Wuhu, from Siaokan southward, in the area S of
Tsinan, and N of Tehsien, and from Wan Mai-Lo, Burma to Luang Prabang, French
Indochina. 2 fighter-bombers hit the warehouse area at Kweihsien, China.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 34: 67 B-29s are dispatched to hit Saigon, French Indochina; 44
bomb the primary target (11 drop prematurely and 33 hit a residential
section), 19 hit Pnom Penh, a target of opportunity, and 2 bomb the last
resort target, the marshalling yard at Martaban, Burma; they claim 0-0-1
Japanese aircraft; 1 B-29 is lost.
  Mission 35: 64 B-29s are dispatched to hit the Rama VI bridge at Bangkok,
Thailand; 58  bomb and effect the collapse of most of middle span of the
bridge (this is the 3d strike at this target) and destroy the NE approach; 1
B-29 bombs the Martaban, Burma marshalling yard; no B-29s are lost.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 11 B-25s attack tanks and
troops at Man Namman; 50 P-47s support forces preparing to cross the Shweli
River in the Myitson area; 40+ P-47s and P-40s attack troops and supply areas
at Nawngkalio, Man Li, Hsunkwe, Nawnghkio, Loi Hkam, Panghsapye, Na-lang,
Wingnang, and Pang Eng Hkye. 464 transport sorties are flown to advanced
bases and frontline areas. In India, the 5th and 6th Fighter Squadrons
(Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, move from Fenny and Asansol respectfully
to Hay with P-47s; the detachment of the 127th Liaison Squadron (Commando),
2d Air Commando Group, operating from Cox's Bazar with UC-64s and L-5s
returns to base at Kalaikunda; and the 317th Troop Carrier Squadron
(Commando), 2d Air Commando Group, moves from Kalaikunda to Palel with C-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 822: 295 B-17s and 80 P-51s are recalled when they encounter a
weather front rising to 30,000 feet (9,144 m) over the North Sea; 1 B-17
attacks Essen; no bombers are lost. Escort is provided by 41 of 80 P-51s
without loss. 36 of 36 P-51s patrol the Siegen, Germany area without loss.
  Mission 823: 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany during
the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 16 B-26s strike the rail siding at
Lipp, Germany; weather cancels other operations. The 39th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, Ninth AF, moves from Valenciennes to Amand, France
with F-5s (first mission is 16 Mar).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 680 B-17s and B-24s bomb oil
refineries at Moosbierbaum, Schwechat, and the Lobau, Floridsdorf, Korneuburg
and Kagran refineries in the Vienna, Austria area; oil storage at Pula,
Yugoslavia; shipyard and harbor of Trieste, Italy; the town of Bratislava,
Czechoslovakia; Zwolfaxing Airfield, Austria; and several scattered targets
of opportunity; 274 P-38s and P-51s provide escort. 8 B-24s drop supplies in
Yugoslavia. 18 P-51s strafe the Zeltweg Airfield in Austria and the
surrounding area while in Yugoslavia, 10 P-38s sweep the Zagreb-Karlovac-
Sisak area. Other P-38s fly reconnaissance and escort operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 6/7
Feb, A-20s bomb lights and movement over extensive areas of N Italy; during
the day B-25 blasts cut bridges at Bodrez and Lavis, a viaduct at Lavis, and
block rail lines at San Michele all'Adige and Mantua; XXII Tactical Air
Command P-47s destroy 4 railroad bridges and damage another severely in the
NE and C Po Valley and Brenner Pass, and blast dumps and sugar refineries in
the Mantua, Brescia, and Reggio Emilia areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 6 B-24s from Saipan Island bomb the town of
Okimura on Chichi Jima Island; 8 B-24s hit AA positions and radio and radar
installations on Iwo Jima Island, while 2 others bomb the airfield in Woleai
Atoll in the Caroline Islands. From Angaur Island 20 B-24s bomb Silay and
Talisay Airfields on Negros Island and 1 bombs Opon airfield on Mactan Island
in the Philippine Islands. 9 B-24s on snooper raids from Saipan Island during
the night of 7/8 Feb, bomb Iwo Jima airfields.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Formosa, B-24s,
with P-38 support hit targets of opportunity at Heito Airfield and other
points (after weather prevents the bombing of Takao) and B-25s, with P-51
cover, fly several sweeps, claiming a sub sunk, a tanker set afire, a large
motor launch sunk, other shipping damaged, and several vehicles and an
airplane destroyed. On Luzon Island, A-20s, supporting ground operations,
attack the hills W of Clark Field. B-24s hit Bago and Mandaue on Negros
Island. In Borneo, other B-24s bomb Tawau and-in another mission-Miri
Airfield, Tutong oil refinery pump station and power house. The 341st Fighter
Squadron, 348th Fighter Group, moves from Tanauan, Leyte Island to San
Marcelino, Luzon with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

07/1423Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:35:27 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45

Um, Sid?

>  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s off to Kataoka, Shimushu Island abort
>the  mission when all aircraft accidentally drop bombs prior to the bombing
>run. 4 B-25s weather abort.

>  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
>  Mission 34: 67 B-29s are dispatched to hit Saigon, French Indochina; 44
>bomb the primary target (11 drop prematurely and 33 hit a residential
>section), 19 hit Pnom Penh, a target of opportunity, and 2 bomb the last

Was this premature evacuation (of bombs) common? What happened to the bombs,
did they strike unintended targets?

Inquireng minds wanna know. Yes, I read your posts. Informative & enjoyable.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:20:59 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Ref: Akira-contact me please

Could Akira please contact me please.  Sorry to waste 300 people's bit
space but I couldn;t get in touch any other way.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:42:33 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Help!-Re: [INF] USAAF 6 FEB 45

I accidently deleted the [INF] posting for 6 FEB 45! can someone send me
another copy? Thanks in advance!-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:08:10 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>    There are documented accounts where both sides did this sort of
>thing. To my knowledge, it was not common practice, but things in the
>air did happen.
>
>    Hope this helps.
>


I recall reading an article about Francis Grabeski (sp?) in which he was
dogfighting with a German airman in a FW-190 while escorting some bombers.
The dogfight was the most vicious and desperate he had yet encountered.  He
was finally able to turn the situation arround and managed to terminally
damage the FW with a couple of burst to the engine.  As the canopy flew
off, Grabeski (sp?) thought to himself that this pilot was just too good
and if he managed to bail out, he knew that this pilot would end up
shooting down allied airmen.   Without a seconds hesitation, Grabeski (sp?)
aimed at the pilot, pulled the trigger and knocked the German airman back
into the burning FW.  Grabeski felt no remorse over this and said that he
would do it again if need be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:57:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: USA Air Corps in North Africa

 >I have several questions and was wondering if the dedicated List members
 >might be able to help or at least point me in the right direction.
 >
 >1.) I was wondering if someone might have an order of battle for the Air
 >Corps in North Africa after Operation Torch? I am primarily interested in
 >fighter or fighter/bomber units equipped with aircraft such as P-40's etc.
 >

Tim,

This is the organization of the Twelfth Air Force on 1 Feb 43.  The Twelfth
was in NW Africa while the Ninth Air Force was in Egypt.  Do you want the
org chart for the Ninth?

                              Twelfth Air Force
                                  Algeria

XII Air Support Command, Algeria
   33d  Fighter Group, Thelepte, Tunisia
     58th, 59th and 60th Fighter Squadrons, Thelepte, Tunisia (P-40)
   47th Bombardment Group (Light), Youks-les-Bains, Algeria
     84th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), Youks-les-Bains, Algeria
       (A-20)
     85th and 97th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), Thelepte, Tunisia (A-20)
   81st Fighter Group, Thelepte, Tunisia
     91st and 92d Fighter Squadrons, Thelepte, Tunisia (P-39)
     93d Fighter Squadron, Port Lyautey, French Morocco (P-39)
  350th Fighter Group, Oujda, French Morocco
     345th, 346th and 347th Fighter Squadrons, Oujda, French Morocco (P-39,
       P-400)

XII Bomber Command, Constantine, Algeria
  5th Bombardment Wing, Biskra, Algeria
      1st Fighter Group, Biskra, Algeria
       27th, 71st and 94th Fighter Squadrons, Biskra, Algeria (P-38)
     14th Fighter Group, Berteaux, Algeria
       48th and 49th Fighter Squadrons, Berteaux, Algeria (P-38)
     68th Observation Group, Oujda, French Morocco
       16th, 111th and 122d Observation Squadrons, Oujda, French Morocco
         (A-20, P-39)
       154th Observation Squadron, Oujda, French Morocco (A-20) (NOTE:
         Detachemntat Yourks-les-Bains, Algeria)
     97th Bombardment Group (Heavy), Biskra, Algeria
       340th, 341st, 342d and 414th  Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), Biskra,
         Algeria (B-17)
    301st Bombardment Group (Heavy), Ain M'lila, Algeria
       32d, 352d, 353d and 419th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), Ain M'lila,
         Algeria (B-17)
  7th Fighter Wing, Chateaudun, Algeria
     17th Bombardment Group (Medium), Telergma, Algeria
       34th, 37th, 95th and 432d Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), Telergma,
         Algeria (B-26)
     82d  Fighter Group, Telergma, Algeria
       95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons, Telergma, Algeria (P-38)
    310th Bombardment Group (Medium), Berteaux, Algeria
       379th, 380th, 381st and 428th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium),
         Berteaux, Algeria (B-25)
    319th Bombardment Group (Medium), Telergma, Algeria
       437th, 438th, 439th and 440th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium),
         Telergma, Algeria (B-26)

XII Fighter Command, La Senia, Algeria
  31st Fighter Group, La Senia, Algeria
    307th Fighter Squadron, Maison Blanche, Algeria (Spitfire)
    308th Fighter Squadron, Tafaraoui, Algeria (Spitfire)
    309th Fighter Squadron, La Senia, Algeria (Spitfire)
  52d  Fighter Group, Telergma, Algeria
    2d, 4th and 5th Fighter Squadrons, Telergma, Algeria (Spitfire)

51st Troop Carrier Wing, Algiers, Algeria
  60th Troop Carrier Group, Relizane, Algeria
    10th Troop Carrier Squadron, Thiersville, Algeria (C-47)
    11th, 12th and 28th Troop Carrier Squadrons, Relizane, Algeria (C-47)
  62d  Troop Carrier Group, Nouvion, Algeria
    4th Troop Carrier Squadron, Casablanca, French Morocco (C-47)
    7th, 8th and 51st Troop Carrier Squadrons, Nouvion, Algeria (C-47)
  64th Troop Carrier Group, Blida, Algeria
    16th, 17th, 18th and 35th Troop Carrier Squadrons, Blida, Algeria (C-47)

3d Photographic Group, Algiers, Algeria
  12th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Algiers, Algeria (F-4)
  13th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Podington, England (F-5, L-4)
    (NOTE: Attached to 1st Bombardment Wing, Eighth Air Force)
  14th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Colorado Springs, Colorado
    (F-5) (NOTE: Attached to HQ Army Air Forces)
  15th Photographic Mapping Squadron, Algiers, Algeria (F-4) (NOTE: "A"
    Flight of air echelon only; "B" and "C" Flights of air echelon at Will
    Rogers Field, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)

5th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Algeris, Algeria (F-4) (NOTE:
  Attached to 3d Photo Group)

15th Bombardment Squadron (Light), Youks-les-Bains, Algeria (A-20)


 >2.) What would a combat loadout consist of for the above aircraft? I realize
 >different missions require different loadouts. What would be typical for
 >interdiction type missions?

Which aircraft and what was the mission?

 >Thanks in advance for any and all answers.
 >
 >Tim McFeely
 >Ocean State FreeNet
 >ad658@osfn.rhilinet.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:00:40 -0600
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Terry -
I think it's his right arm he can't use.  I didn't know he only has one
kidney; I know he has suffered from kidney stones in the past, so I
guess he has to be really careful.

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:32:18 -0500
From:    Henry Herz <herzh@CPVA.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: ME-262

> >Does anyone know how many ME-262's the Germans had at the end of the war? I
> >realize they did not have the fuel to fly them, but a figure of 1000 which I
> >read recently surprised me. Did they really build that many ?
> >
> >Incidentally, I saw one of these aircraft at the Air and Space Museum in
> >Washington, DC about a month ago and the design and construction looked like
> >a new aircraft, not one of 50 years ago. Does anyone know the performance
> >figures of the plane.
>
> Also, does anyone have easy access to the monthly production figures of
> the Me-262, Me-163, V-1 and V-2?  Or know where I can access this info?
>
> Thanks.
>

The following comes out of the Campaign Analysis Booklet for the Avalon Hill
wargame Luftwaffe.  As you can see, total ME-262 production is barely more than
1000, so it seems unlikely they had over 1000 at war's end. Enjoy.

-Henry

FIGHTER AIRCRAFT (or aircraft used as fighters)

                  Yearly of Production
Type            1939    1940    1941    1942    1943     1944   1945     Total
Arado 234             0    0    0       0       0       150       64       214
Dornier 17         0       9       0       0    0       0       0            9
Dornier 217        0       0    0        157    207         0           0          364
Dornier 335        0    0          0       0       0        7      4            11
Focke-Wulf 190   0         0     228    1850    2171     7488   1630    13,376
Heinkel 162         0      0       0       0    0           0   116        116
Heinkel 219         0      0       0       0    11        195   62      268
Junkers 88           0    62      66     257     706     2513    355    3,964
Messers. 109    449     1667    2764    2657    6013    12807   2798    29,155
Messers. 110    156     1006     594     501     641      128      0    3,028
Messers. 163       0       0       0       0    0       327     37      364
Messers. 210       0    0         92      93      89       74           0          348
Messers. 262       0       0    0          0       0      564    730    1,294
Messers. 410       0       0    0          0     271      629      0       910
Tank 152               0           0       0       0       0       34     33            67
Tank 154               0           0       0       0    0           8      0         8
Totals       605        2,745   3,744   5,515   10,898  26,326  5,883   55,717

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:51:28 -0500
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

>From: William Lippert <WL1958A@american.edu>
>Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD
>Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:32:24 EST

>Thanks for your advice.  I'll definitely go get that Canaris book.  I've
>read it once but have forgotten about it.  When I went to get it months
>ago it was out.  I'll look for the SS-Alibei book.  As for the administration
>of the camps, both the SD and Gestapo were restricted on pain of death
>(probably only a little exaggeration here).  These two were controlled
>by Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner (I think).  But Himmler was smart
>enough not to put so much power in one person's hands so the administration
>of the camps fell to the Totenkopf division.  This is readily seen by the
>Death's Head on their collar insignia.  Thanks for the help and I'll let
>you know when I get this paper done.  Nothing like going to school to
>make me finish things.

>Bill Lippert

Hello, All!!

     I think I can clarify some misconceptions that have crept in above.

     The concentration camps were administered by the Economic Section
(Wirtshaft; sp?) of the SS. The actual personnel were carried on the
Waffen SS rolls, but they had no connection with the 2nd SS Panzer Division
Totenkopf after 1940.

     In 1940, Himmler was desperatly seeking manpower to flesh out the
3 divisions he was allotted to raise. He recruited/drafted many of the
younger, more fit personnel from the concentration camp guard batallions
into the Totenkopf Division. (Before the war, these units were Algemeine
SS [General SS] formations, not Waffen SS.) Their Deathshead collar tabs
reflects their origin in the camp guards, but they had no further offical
affiliation after they took to the field.

     Sometime in '39/40, the concentration camp guard battalions were
transferred to the Waffen SS, probably for two main reasons:

        A. As Waffen SS, they were not subject to the draft.

        B. The Waffen SS budget was carried on the Minister of the
                Interior's budget, and not on the Party's budget.

     Sometimes wounded Waffen SS men from the front were transferred to
a concentration camp guard battalion if it was felt they could still
render service, and a concentration camp guard would then be rotated
to the front. I don't think that this happened very often, however.

Sources:

     See George H. Stein's "The Waffen SS, Hitler's Elite Guard at
War", for details of the raising of the Totenkopf Division.

     "Soldiers Of Destruction", by Charles Syndor (sp?) also covers the
raising and deployment of the Totenkopf Division.

     "The Order Of The Death's Head", by Heinz Hoehne also details the
camp administration setup.

     All of the above is from memory (these books are at home), but I
think I got the basics down right.

                                                Regards
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:03:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 7 FEB 45

 >>  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s off to Kataoka, Shimushu Island abort
 >>the  mission when all aircraft accidentally drop bombs prior to the bombing
 >>run. 4 B-25s weather abort.
 >
 >>  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
 >>  Mission 34: 67 B-29s are dispatched to hit Saigon, French Indochina; 44
 >>bomb the primary target (11 drop prematurely and 33 hit a residential
 >>section), 19 hit Pnom Penh, a target of opportunity, and 2 bomb the last
 >
 >Was this premature evacuation (of bombs) common? What happened to the bombs,
 >did they strike unintended targets?
 >
 >Inquireng minds wanna know. Yes, I read your posts. Informative & enjoyable.
 >
 >                                                                Steve
 >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 >Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
 >STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
 >Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
 >574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
 >Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
 >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Enquring,

Whenever there is a premature evacuation and you see a bunch of
planes dropping together, there is a very strong probability that
there was a lead crew and the aircraft behind the lead crew dropped
their bombs when the lead bombardier did.  So the lead bombardier
screwed up and a bunch of other guys followed his lead.  Hey, the
lead bombardier is a super star and we were just following orders!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:32:26 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

        While it may be more justifiable to shoot at enemy pilots
in parachutes using the logic that they may fight again, I would
like to bring the discussion toward the more dubious practices of
the British in which they would strafe enemy sea planes trying
to rescue *British* pilots, knowingly (via Ultra) sinking enemy
merchantmen filled with *British* POWs, and attacking clearly
marked enemy hospital ships.  It seems the postwar image of gallant
chivalry is totally misplaced.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Crap Game: Hey, Joe, what's happenin'?
  Big Joe: The Sherman is shot and nobody is moving that German tank!
Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:24:16 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: More 25mm Stuff

couldnt reach you directly.

**any info on range, effectiveness, quantity produced and penetration
 you.....**
Performance data for the AP cartridge is :
Cartridge Weight: 861 Grams
Projectile Weight: 320 grams
Muzzle velocity: 900-960 m/s
Carteidge Case index: 25X195R
No info on production, penetration or effectiveness.

No other info on the HEAT cartridge.

Source says the AP cartridge was in service at the beginning of WW-II
 but was not produced after the war's end.DST-1160G-514-78-VOL2 stands
 for a document prepared by the Foreign Science and Technology Center,
 which, in 1978, was under the US Army Materiel Development and
 Readiness Command, in turn under DoD S&T Intelligence Production
 Program. This document is/was unclassified and approved for public
 release, distribution unlimited.


Jim O'Neil  From the interrogation of a German General at the end
 of WW II:  "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that
 War is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

And from a Soviet General:  "The reason the American Army Does so well
 in war is that they refuse to follow their manuals or adhere to their
 training doctrines once conflict is opened."

"Let's Keep up the Good Work!" Graffitti on a poster of the above.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:37:14 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Japanese Peso

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  07-Feb-1995 12:10pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Japanese Peso


    A student here brought to me a very interesting piece of currency which
    has got us both wondering what it really is.  He was told it was
    created during WWII but that is about all the info we have on it.

    The bill is 5 1/2" by 2 5/8" and printed on both side, head to foot.
    The front of the bill is very much a simplified knock off of the US one
    dollar bill.  The 'headline' says "The Japanese Government."  The upper
    two corners have an enlarged '1' inside a shield and the word 'PESO'
    across the '1.'  In the center (where George's face would be on the US
    One) is a more elaborate shield with a '1' in the center and the word
    'ONE' across the number.  Below the center shield is the statement 'ONE
    PESO' and below that are Japanese or Chinese letters.  To the left of
    the center shield is the image of a monument which appears to be a
    Greek-style plaza with a pyramid-like base topped with statues and an
    obelisk rising from the center.  To the right of the center shield is
    the word 'ONE' printed very light over an embedded water mark of what
    appears to be palms or tropical plants.  Just below are seven numbers
    which might be serial numbers.

    The reverse side of the bill again uses simplified knock off of the US
    Dollar for a border with 1's in the corners and the enlarged 1 with
    PESO in the center midway down each side.  To the left of center is a
    large unprinted circle to expose the water mark.  Center right has the
    word 'ONE' large in reverse with 'ONE PESO' overprinted.

    We have had a lot of fun speculating on the purpose of this bill
    (occupation money for use after capturing Panama, Mexico, the
    Philippines, or the US) but would really like something more concrete.
    Anybody out there have any ideas or leads or know what one of these
    puppies is worth today?

    Doug
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  07-Feb-1995 12:37pm

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:38:49 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: e-mail info

        I don't have any intention of starting a flame war over something as
insignificant as my e-mail problems.  My apologies for posting that to the
list, but this list is the only address I have to reach Joe Barone, and I know
that bounced messages create a big headache for the owner, so I wanted to
notify him as soon as possible.  All I can say is, if people are going to get
burned up about a paragraph regarding e-mail, I bet some of you must love my
300-line ranting and raving when its not a topic you're interested in....
        Anyway, mea culpa on that one.  Hopefully the gaffe will not be
repeated.

        Apologies

        Mike Yaklich

                "A small and weak nation, such as ours, does not what it
                wishes, but what it CAN."

                        Marshal Ion Antonescu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:14:57 -0500
From:    Matthew Savoie <msavoie@KRAKEN.MVNET.WNEC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Tim,
        Yes, you are correct.  Senator Dole was serving in Italy with the
10TH MTN DIV.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew M. Savoie           |  "There is only one tactical principal that   |
Western New England College |    that remains unchanged.  It is to inflict  |
1215 Wilbraham Road         |    the maximum amount of death, wounds, and   |
Box 1830                    |    destruction in the minimum amount of time."|
Springfield, MA 01119       |              - General George S. Patton, Jr.  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:08:54 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: ME-262

They had over 1400 at the war's end (had built 586 at the end of 1944)
with only a few hundred serving (first ones in operations during late
spring and summer of 1944).

Hope this helps.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:09:57 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chronology - 05Feb45

Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU> writes:
> February 5, 1945
> -Tanks used by cavalry recon squadrons were being converted from M59 to
>  M24. These conversions not only created a faster, more maneuverable tank,
>  but also exchanged a new 75mm gun in place of the old 37mm.

        Squadron's "M24 in Action" indicates that the M24 had to
"make the rounds" to all the ETO troops so that they could familiarize
themselves with its appearance.  Until then, German and Allied armor
could be easily differentiated by looking at the roadwheel layout and
suspension system of the vehicle.  The M24 had roadwheels characteristic
of a Pzkw III so it was thought that troops might shoot at an M24.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:15:35 -0500
From:    Pat Marsden <marsden@ISMAP6.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Japanese Peso

Sounds like occupation money from the Philippines.

I'm not sure of the value but I'd give you buck for it
(just kidding).  Sounds like a really good find.

patrick


--
Patrick D. Marsden            | Naval Research Laboratory    | Opinions are mine
Computational Physics, Inc.   | Code 7641                    | and mine alone.
Planetary Atmospheres Section | Washington, D.C.  20375      |    * RKBA *
(202)-404-8229                | marsden@ismap6.nrl.navy.mil  | Live Free or Die

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:11:09 +0100
From:    PERRIN Olivier <perrin@WORLD-NET.SCT.FR>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

>     The concentration camps were administered by the Economic Section
>(Wirtshaft; sp?) of the SS. The actual personnel were carried on the
>Waffen SS rolls, but they had no connection with the 2nd SS Panzer Division
>Totenkopf after 1940.

The Amtsgruppe D of the SS Wirtschafts und Verwaltungs Hauptamt  (WVHA, SS
Economic and Administrative Department) was in charge of the concentration
camps and was divided into :
Amt I : Central Department
Amt II : Allocation of Labour
Amt III : Medical Administration
Amt IV : General Administration of Camps and Camp Staff.
The SS WVHA was part of the Allgemeine SS.


Hope this helps
O. PERRIN
Olivier PERRIN
Paris - FRANCE

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:31:04 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

Hello, Bill!

Glad I was able to help.

> Thanks for your advice.  I'll definitely go get that Canaris book.  I've
> read it once but have forgotten about it.  When I went to get it months
> ago it was out.  I'll look for the SS-Alibei book.  As for the administration
> of the camps, both the SD and Gestapo were restricted on pain of death
> (probably only a little exaggeration here).  These two were controlled
> by Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner (I think).

    Yes, Kaltenbrunner was Heydrich's successor.

But Himmler was smart
> enough not to put so much power in one person's hands so the administration
> of the camps fell to the Totenkopf division.

    That may have been because of its most famous commander, Theodor
Eicke, who was associated with establishment of the concentration
camps before accepting a field command, which was the 3rd SS
Totenkopf Division. It was Eicke more than anyone, who set the tenor
or established the environment in which prisoners were so harshly
treated.

 This is readily seen by the
> Death's Head on their collar insignia.  Thanks for the help and I'll let
> you know when I get this paper done.  Nothing like going to school to
> make me finish things.

    Would appreciate it. If there is anything else I can do, please
let me know.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:29:07 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken, can you disprove my statement?

Extrapolating from IwoJima and Okinawa yield losses form 200,000 to
25 million casualties, way above 60,000.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:27:33 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Ken, absolutism or elitism, in either direction, is no good.
I don't like how they organized the setup, got flack for how they
put it together and then caved in.  That is why they should be fired.
They put what they wanted on the exhibit and when other historians
disagreed they just canned the whole exhibit, is that the 'good'
thing to do Ken?  you tell me.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:35:40 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Then again, strategic bombing did not work in ending the war in europe,
and German production increased till the near end, so the ability of
the Army Air Corp to say the could end the war is still questionable.
I got a book that goes through the paper trail, and for taking Kyushu,
the given casualties are 50,000 for that island alone, also that
does not count taking the whole island, only the south plain so that
support for Coronet could be mounted.  The continueing combat between
US forces in the south and the Japanese forces in the north would have
continued to cause casualties as the US invaded the central plain north
of Tokyo, and I would estimate probably another 100,000 to 150,000 casualties
for that operation (landing 25 divisions , boy that is impressive) for
rough casualties to 200,000 for seizing two plains, one on the
south island and the important plain on the main island, but if the
Japanese did not surrender then, casualties would have continued to go up.

P.S. I will get the name of the book for Thursday.

John E. Kollar

Ken, does this suffice?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:38:28 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Hello, Ron!

Great post and it seems that I read this somewhere as well.

> I recall reading an article about Francis Grabeski (sp?) in which he was
> dogfighting with a German airman in a FW-190 while escorting some bombers.
> The dogfight was the most vicious and desperate he had yet encountered.  He
> was finally able to turn the situation arround and managed to terminally
> damage the FW with a couple of burst to the engine.  As the canopy flew
> off, Grabeski (sp?) thought to himself that this pilot was just too good
> and if he managed to bail out, he knew that this pilot would end up
> shooting down allied airmen.   Without a seconds hesitation, Grabeski (sp?)
> aimed at the pilot, pulled the trigger and knocked the German airman back
> into the burning FW.  Grabeski felt no remorse over this and said that he
> would do it again if need be.

    That doesn't surprise me. He made the statement, and I think he
was correct in doing so, that "we were there to do one thing and that
was to win." Implication being that killing the enemy by any means at
any time and at any place was justifiable.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:37:09 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

In this cronology--it says the 1st Dog Sled Team arrived--is this the
first dog sled team---in other words--the first to arrive on the
scene--or is it like the 1st Infantry Division.  Just curious.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:48:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Senator Robert Dole

Hello, Tim!

I have a taped interview he gave in which he barely discussed the
details of his many injuries. He really won't talk directly about the
way he was wounded or just what nature the wounds were. He will dodge
or try to dodge that question every time.

> I think it's his right arm he can't use.  I didn't know he only has one
> kidney; I know he has suffered from kidney stones in the past, so I
> guess he has to be really careful.

    You may be right. But it seems to me that it was his left. Next
time, I will pay closer attention to him and see which arm is
incapacitated.

    Thanks, again, Tim, and all the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:49:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Roosevelt and the Bomb

Hello, Tim!

> A hypothetical question for those who know more about FDR.  If all else
> had remained the same, but Roosevelt had not died in April, 1945, would
> he have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in August 1945?

    To answer your question, I don't think he would have denied its
use. He may have taken longer to make the decision, but in the end,
he would have authorized its use.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:57:46 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP

The Japanese did have an abomb section, because a couple of houyrs after
the bomb went off, they had a guy with a geiger counter there who told
the powers that be that it was a nuclear explosion, they weren't close
to a bomb of their own, but close enough to identify what it would
look like.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:59:30 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>
> Hello, Ron!
>
>     That doesn't surprise me. He made the statement, and I think he
> was correct in doing so, that "we were there to do one thing and that
> was to win." Implication being that killing the enemy by any means at
> any time and at any place was justifiable.
>
>     Thanks again.
>
>     Terry
>
[PLEASE NOTE: this is not a flame-starter or revisionism just a thought]

     Hmm, in which way is a bailed-out German pilot over *his* homeland
different from British crew of a sunken ship in their lifeboats?
Oblt. Heinz Eck was executed (along with his machine-gunner) for gunning down
helpless crewmembers of his victim in the Atlantic (which was UK/US home
ground so to speak) in 1944. Those crewmembers almost certainly would have
joined the fight against Eck's fatherland again and thus were still a threat.

    Anyone care to comment on this?

PS: I agree strongly with the execution of Eck (maybe not his gunner
though) but isnt this just another example of the winning side taking
vendetta on the losing side? Hunting down Germans for doing what both
sides did over and over again?

Again, I am not bashing anyone with this thread.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:07:55 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

Ben, is there a way I could get a photocopy of the script for my records?

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:13:43 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO: Gestapo and SD

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:11:09 +0100 PERRIN Olivier said:
>
>The Amtsgruppe D of the SS Wirtschafts und Verwaltungs Hauptamt  (WVHA, SS
>Economic and Administrative Department) was in charge of the concentration
>camps and was divided into :
>Amt I : Central Department
>Amt II : Allocation of Labour
>Amt III : Medical Administration
>Amt IV : General Administration of Camps and Camp Staff.
>The SS WVHA was part of the Allgemeine SS.
>
>
>Hope this helps
>O. PERRIN
>Olivier PERRIN
>Paris - FRANCE

When was this formed?  I seem to recall Speer saying that the SS Economic
office was not created until the middle of the war, as production had been
part of Organization Todt, the Four Year Plan, and the Reich Ministry of
Armaments and War Prodution (lesser organizations left out).

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:02:06 +1100
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: unmentioned victims

  In a post last year I mentioned about Chinese troops flooding there own
people and that the huge loss of life gets little mention compared to camps and
Dresden.Hiroshima etc which bring forth often heated discussion.
  I don't want to enter into the Enola Gay debate but wonder why the people who
are upset about the casualties at hiroshima arent equally as vocal about the
huge loss of life in China during and after the Japanese germ warfare
experiments and the proposed scope of that arm of warfare.
  Apart from the immense suffering by Pows and indigenous people who were used
as tests there are estimates of over a million chinese at the least dying from
the effectes on a malnouriched population of the release of plague infected
test animals into the country side as the Japanese experimenters tried to cover
up their operations in the same way the SS tried to destroy all knowledge of
the death camps etc. These people didn't die in a flash and it served no
strategic purpose but only to show complete racism and contempt for human life.
  The ultimate plan was to release plague infected rats etc into Sydney,
Melbourne,LA,San Francisco etc which makes Hiroshima some sort of side show.
  Bearing in mind the Enola Gay controversy I am reminded that the knowledge of
these things is mainly due to one chinese man who has spent his life trying to
document the story and who has received no help from Japanese sources as they
refuse to acknowledge that it ever happened. much of his work was done using US
help as the US facing the cold war and Korea gave immunity to these war
criminals in exchange for the research and that some of those responsible
occupied high places in Japanese society and government post war. This in
contrast to say the great efforts to bring to justice those responsible for say
the Malmedy massacre.

  Just my thinking.......
 Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:41:57 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese Peso

You wrote:

>
>                   Ohio University Electronic Communication
>
>
>   Date:  07-Feb-1995 12:10pm EST
>
>     To:  Remote Addressee                     (
_MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
>" )
>
>   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
>          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614)
593-2715
>
>Subject:  Japanese Peso
>
>
>    A student here brought to me a very interesting piece of currency
which
>    has got us both wondering what it really is.  He was told it was
>    created during WWII but that is about all the info we have on it.
>
>    The bill is 5 1/2" by 2 5/8" and printed on both side, head to
foot.
>    The front of the bill is very much a simplified knock off of the US
one
>    dollar bill.  The 'headline' says "The Japanese Government."  The
upper
>    two corners have an enlarged '1' inside a shield and the word
'PESO'
>    across the '1.'  In the center (where George's face would be on the
US
>    One) is a more elaborate shield with a '1' in the center and the
word
>    'ONE' across the number.  Below the center shield is the statement
'ONE
>    PESO' and below that are Japanese or Chinese letters.  To the left
of
>    the center shield is the image of a monument which appears to be a
>    Greek-style plaza with a pyramid-like base topped with statues and
an
>    obelisk rising from the center.  To the right of the center shield
is
>    the word 'ONE' printed very light over an embedded water mark of
what
>    appears to be palms or tropical plants.  Just below are seven
numbers
>    which might be serial numbers.
>
>    The reverse side of the bill again uses simplified knock off of the
US
>    Dollar for a border with 1's in the corners and the enlarged 1 with
>    PESO in the center midway down each side.  To the left of center is
a
>    large unprinted circle to expose the water mark.  Center right has
the
>    word 'ONE' large in reverse with 'ONE PESO' overprinted.
>
>    We have had a lot of fun speculating on the purpose of this bill
>    (occupation money for use after capturing Panama, Mexico, the
>    Philippines, or the US) but would really like something more
concrete.
>    Anybody out there have any ideas or leads or know what one of these
>    puppies is worth today?
>
>    Doug
>    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu
>
>
>
>Received:  07-Feb-1995 12:37pm
>
>
Sounds like what you've got is Japanese occupation money for the
Phillipines.  The description fits what I remember of these bills that
my father brought home as souveniers.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:45:49 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: admin (sorry)

Henry Herz, very nice reply, others of us on the list are with you
Mike.  Henry, it was a tiny message in comparison to some of the other
files posted to this list and it was very intelligent of you to
repost the whole thing so that it goes in everyones mailbox not once
but twice, I hope you get a copy of your messages so it continues
to jam your mailbox.  He posted the proper info to the Admin area
as he needed help from the listowner, if you don't like that find
a snail-mail list-serv.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 14:51:34 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

You wrote:

>
>        While it may be more justifiable to shoot at enemy pilots
>in parachutes using the logic that they may fight again, I would
>like to bring the discussion toward the more dubious practices of
>the British in which they would strafe enemy sea planes trying
>to rescue *British* pilots, knowingly (via Ultra) sinking enemy
>merchantmen filled with *British* POWs, and attacking clearly
>marked enemy hospital ships.  It seems the postwar image of gallant
>chivalry is totally misplaced.
>--
>Joe Barone
>m1b@ssd.ray.com
>Crap Game: Hey, Joe, what's happenin'?
>  Big Joe: The Sherman is shot and nobody is moving that German tank!
>Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
>  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
>Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.
>
>
Is it any more gallent to launch missiles at cities, knowing that there
isn't the ghost of a chance that they will strike anything remotely
military?  Or what about sending a thousand + bombers out at night to
destory a city because it's not possible to pinpoint the military
targets within that city at night.

Truth be told, the technology of war had pretty much killed off the
concept of "gallent warriors" by the US civil war.  By the time the
quote "War is Hell!" was written down, it was litteral truth.

--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:01:54 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Farewell BBs

As a postscript to earlier discussions regarding the ultimate fates of
various battleships, I'd like to add the following as a pair of French
battlewagons that often miss out on the limelight (hey, they may be old,
but they're bigger'n ANYTHING the Royal Romanian Navy had afloat at the
time, INCLUDING the DACIA):

ALSO LOST AT TOULON (27TH NOVEMBER 1942)

[this is in addition to STRASBOURG, DUNKERQUE, & PROVENCE]

CONDORCET (DANTON class, 1911)
     deleted from Fleet lists 1931 but retained as depot ship for the Navy's
     torpedo training establishment; by 1942 a hulked barrack ship.  Damaged
     by explosion in scuttling attempt but remained afloat.  Served as
     barracks ship for German Navy until August 1944, at which time suffered
     damage from Allied bombing attacks, finally sinking in shallow water.
     Salvaged December 1945 and ?? back in French service?? until deleted
     from Fleet lists again! in 1947.  Scrapping completed by 1959.


JEAN BART later OCEAN  (COURBET class, 1913)
     modifications & upgrades completed by 1929; converted to training
     ship 1931; renamed OCEAN in 1937 to free up name for a new vessel;
     by 1942 serving as a stationery training ship & hulk.  Scuttled by
     crew 27th November 1942; semisunk hulk used as a target by German Navy.
     Salvaged 1944 and broken up for scrap by December 1945.


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:15:07 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Nazi Papers Auction

>
> Interesting. My thoughts exactly regarding your post. Makes me wonder
> about their authenticity. Any thoughts?  <Hitler signed KZ docs>
>
>     Terry

No telling without looking at them.  Even then I am no expert but some
fakes are better than others.  I met Hugh Trever-Roper in Milan and he
was called in as an expert witness on the John Demjanjuk case.
According to Roper the documents the Israelis offered as evidence were
rather poor forgeries.

Unfortunately for us collectors, as the demand for these items
increases so does the price.  When the prices reach certain thresholds
then it becomes cost effective to fake them to near
indistinguishability.  We are seeing this in the realm of SS insignia
and uniform items now.  The Hitler diaries are a good example and
remember the story of the Hermann Goring wedding sword.  To date that
was the biggest swindle in militaria collecting and was so well
planned and executed that *all* the "experts" were fooled.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 18:53:16 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: A "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit

        Last Thursday, before I got overwhelmed with system problems, I read a
post in which a listmember (sorry, in my speed-deleting frenzy to free up some
blocks I lost the name) posed the question to Ben Frank as to what would
satisfy him as a "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit.  While I
wouldn't presume to answer for Ben, who obviously needs no help speaking for
himself, the manner in which the question was posed kind of irked me.  Someone
else on the list (again apologies for losing the name)-- might have been Steve
New-- gave a great short answer, something like the Japanese "sowed the wind
and reaped a whirlwind."  Seeing as short, concise answers aren't exactly my
standard operating procedure/strong suit, I thought I'd take a crack at
expostulating on the subject at a little greater length.
        I believe I did see a reply from Ben (if it was someone else, apologies
and see my excuse above) saying that if the exhibit only showed photographs of
charred Hiroshima corpses, collections of artifacts from children killed by the
bomb, and a text which said that in the Japanese mind they were only defending
their "unique culture" from American imperialism, that hardly constituted a
"balanced" presentation of what happened at Hiroshima, or what led to it.  This
is exactly my viewpoint-- i.e., funny that they chose to defend their unique
Japanese culture in places like the Phillipines, Malaya, China, Indonesia, New
Guinea, Burma, etc, etc, etc.  I don't see how the bombing can be placed in
context at all without some exposition of what came before, nor how the
treatment of the presumed American hatred (some scholars and pseudo-scholars
like to use the term "race-hatred" here) can be presented without also exposing
the multiplicity of verified atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese prior to
August 1945-- at least not in a manner that can be in any way described as
"balanced."  In other words, to understand the decision to drop the bomb, you
DO need to show such incidents as the rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march,
the construction of the Burma railway, etc.  To understand the military
mentality toward the Japanese, one also needs to see how they fought to the
bitter end at places like Tarawa and Iwo Jima, or how even civilians committed
mass suicide on Saipan rather than fall into American hands, or what a
terrifying weapon the kamikazes were to those on the receiving end.  This is
the true context of the times, McArthur's relatively low (and in my mind
unjustifiably so, but that's another story-- he didn't fight at Iwo or Okinawa,
where the maneuver options were more limited) estimate of potential casualties
for the invasion of Japan aside (and even his estimates provided for the loss
of over 100,000 men).  The sum total of the American military experience in the
Pacific, especially in the last year of the war as the ground fighting
approached Japanese soil, was certainly more indicative of the mother of all
bloodbaths than of any other potential outcome of an actual invasion (at least
in terms of assessing the Japanese mentality-- let's not forget the attitude of
the Army high command, even in August, or Admiral Onishi speaking of
"sacrificing TWENTY MILLION lives in 'special--i.e, suicide-- attacks'").
        But actually, what I want to talk about is "sowing the wind."  Because,
in my mind, the conduct of the war by the Japanese military consistently set a
standard of bestiality that has seldom if ever been equaled in this century.  I
mentioned earlier a book called "Peace Is Our Duty," wherein, among other
things (there are also accounts by civilian atomic bomb survivors, for
instance) there are recollections by six different soldiers who fought in
China.  I mentioned that the one thing these six had in common, even though
they belonged to at least three different units, was that all six had been
given a "combat indoctrination" whereby they were forced to bayonet living,
bound prisoners, so that each soldier already knew what it was like to kill
before entering actual combat (Saburo Ienaga, in "The Pacific War 1931-45"
cites several more examples from China and Manchuria, also from the testimony
of veterans, and when the accounts of non-Japanese witnesses in Singapore,
Rabaul, and elsewhere are added in one can assume the practice was extremely
wide-spread if not universal in the Japanese Army).  But this is only the tip
of the iceberg, especially in China.  One of the men in "Peace Is Our Duty"
recounts how, when his squad entered a house and were busily gang-raping a
woman they found there, a man, apparently the husband, came in, so the narrator
picked up an axe he saw in the corner of the room and split open the man's
skull.  The dazed and naked woman stumbled out into the street, where she was
treated to an even worse orgy of sexual assault by more passing Japanese
soldiers.  Ienaga cites a soldier who wrote a book called "Naked Women In The
Ranks," the title deriving from a practice to prevent straggling on the long
marches that characterized the China campaign, that is, stripping young Chinese
women and forcing them to march along, the noncoms telling the troops before
setting out that if they "wanted a shot at the Chink broads" at the end of the
day they'd better keep up.  Nice motivational tool.  Another of the men in
"Peace Is Our Duty" was transfered to a counter-insurgency security police
unit, where he recounted how prisoners (in China this meant anyone even
suspected of giving aid or information to the guerillas, which might mean
anyone in a village the guerilla forces had passed through) were questioned by
sticking cigarettes up their noses (just to help the old imagination, the
glowing tip of a cigarette is approximately 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit).  This
was nothing compared to the so-called "Political Indoctrination" sessions
groups of long-term prisoners were periodically submitted to.  The concrete
floor of a shed was covered with hot coals, and the prisoners, male and female,
were rolled and kicked back and forth across the coals while simultaneously
being beaten with clubs, the process generally continuing until the subject
died.  This was not even torture for information, simply a weeding-out of the
prisoner population, but one supposes a simple bullet or beheading was less
amusing.  Ienaga speaks of another favorite torture method in China, which was
to smear gasoline all over the prisoner's bare back and then set it afire, also
fatal in many cases.  The abuses were so widespread they can not be considered
aberrations, but might be looked at as deliberate policy.  Ienaga fills three
pages or so with examples of everything from baby killing to bayoneting
pregnant women in the belly to...well, you get the idea, its all pretty
disgusting.   And in large segments of China this WAS deliberate policy--i.e.,
the celebrated "Three All Policy" in Northern China, a response to the only
partially successful but mutually costly "Hundred Regiments Offensive" of Mao's
guerillas against the Japanese in 1940.  The "Three All's"= "Kill All, Burn
All, Take All."  Pretty self-explanatory, and this was official policy, aimed
at deliberate depopulation of the areas used as guerilla bases or perceived to
be sympathetic.  And it worked-- in the areas of China affected, within three
years the murder and flight to escape the terror reduced the estimated
population from 41 million to 25 million.  "Unique culture" indeed.
        But hey, that's just China.  All around the Pacific rim the question
"do you need a manicure?" was used by sadistic interrogators to prompt
co-operation-- sticking long steel needles under the fingernails or tearing the
nails out with pliers being favorite Japanese methods of examination.  William
Manchester, in "Goodbye Darkness," gives a horribly detailed account of some of
the Japanese practices on Guam, and there are a number of books providing the
same detail, often in first-hand testimony of survivors, for the Phillipines.
Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, the famous Marine ace and "Black Sheep" squadron
leader, after bailing out of his shot-up Corsair over Rabaul in January 1944,
wounded in a couple of places, was not only denied medical treatment by his
captors, but was several times subjected to torture before being relegated to a
prison camp (see "Baa Baa Black Sheep").  British and Australian pilots
captured in the Indonesian theatre were also on occasion tortured with such
methods as needles under the nails and prolonged, systematic beatings of the
legs with sticks, and several were executed when they failed to provide the
information their captors demanded.  I saw on this list a posting recently
about the execution of a number of downed B-29 pilots in the Japanese homelands
(several of the much earlier Doolittle raiders who fell into Japanese hands
were also executed), but that was kids' stuff compared to the fate of eight
captured B-29 crewmen who were used for vivisection experiments (i.e., being
surgically dissected while still alive-- see Ienaga).  How does that fit in
with the current subject line about international law regarding downed air
crewmen?? (BTW, one of the men in "Peace Is Our Duty" relates once observing a
Japanese Army doctor demonstrating brain surgery to a group of trainees using a
live Chinese).
        Shall I go on?  There are many parts of the so-called "Greater East
Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" we haven't even touched yet.  Remember, the Japanese
line on this, and its being taught in Japanese schools even as we speak, is
that they were fighting to free Asia from European and American colonial
imperialism.  Lots of empathy for their brethren chafing under the white man's
yoke.  In Singapore the first action of the Japanese was to round up the 70,000
or so Chinese living there.  Those who got shipped off as slave laborers were
the lucky ones.  Thousands were used for live bayonet practice (there exist
numerous photographs of this one, taken by the Japanese themselves), others
were tied up, taken to sea in boats, and thrown overboard.  When a Japanese
warehouse was broken into and a guard killed, the Japanese immediately beheaded
eight suspects and posted their heads on stakes on one of Singapore's busiest
streets.  And readers of Herman Wouk's "Winds of War" may recall how colonial
Singapore was portrayed as the essence of British imperialist snobbery, how one
character is denied entrance to the exclusive Raffles hotel because one of her
grandparents was non-white.  According to a Japanese civilian who was there,
under Japanese occupation of Singapore "forms of racial discrimination not even
practiced by the British were implemented." (Ienaga)  The Japanese also
dispatched all the Australian military personnel they caught when they landed
on Rabaul by tying them to trees and bayonetting them.  In Burma, in one
instance, a captured British officer was tied to the front of a Japanese tank,
which then advanced toward British lines (the officer bravely called upon his
comrades to ignore him and shoot, which they did).  I am citing these examples
at length to show how universal and pervasive this tendency toward bestiality
and utter disregard for human life or any concept of civilized behavior (even
by wartime standards) was in the Japanese Army.  In another incident recounted
by Ienaga from Malaya a counter-insurgent group brought in eight men and women
from a village suspected of aiding the guerillas.  The interrogation consisted
of beating them to death with clubs, and when the men of the unit returned
literally covered with their victims' blood even a Japanese civilian employee
of the unit disgustedly remarked that such behavior only made the natives hate
them more.
        Someone posted to the list a day or two ago the idea that poison gas
was the WW2 equivalent of atomic bombs in the sheer horror it invoked.  In
1939, Lt-General Hashimoto admitted to Prince Takeda that the Japanese Army had
been secretly using poison gas against the guerillas in the mountains of Shansi
province.  Then there was the notorious biological warfare research unit which
conducted experiments in Manchuria by secretly exposing thousands of civilians,
primarily women and children, to bubonic plague, typhoid, and other diseases
(this was the short segment of the film "The Last Emporer" which was censored
in Japan a few years ago).  Even areas considered part of Japan were treated to
the Japanese concept of racial equality.  In addition to the experience of
200,000 "comfort women," forced into sexual slavery as Japanese Army enlisted
man's prostitutes in the most appalling conditions-- something recently
admitted and apologized for by the Japanese government-- and the hundreds of
thousands of slave laborers, ask those lucky Koreans who were actually drafted
into the Japanese Army as soldiers how their treatment compared to those of the
regular Japanese soldier (which itself was often remarkably brutal, a subject
for a future post as this is getting pretty long).  On Okinawa, where the
inhabitants were so loyal to Japan that thousands of teen-age boys volunteered
for behind-enemy-lines suicide attack missions, the final weeks of the battle
saw horrendous abuses of the civilian populations by Japanese soldiers who had
lost all discipline-- an Okinawan could consider himself "lucky" if bands of
leaderless soldiers contented themselves with merely raping his wife and
daughters and stealing all his food and other valuables, without killing
everyone as well.  On one small offshore island, the Japanese commander, when
supplies ran short, ordered the inhabitants to give up their food supplies and
commit mass suicide, which 329 of the islanders dutifully did.  Even Indonesia,
which had bad experiences with Dutch colonial rule and thus initially welcomed
the Japanese, had its share of horrors, though it was not treated so much as an
enemy nation.  In fact, Indonesia was considered a model of the "Greater East
Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" in action, and its islands a paradise for the
Japanese garrisons (as one quoted by Ienaga said, "in Batavia--now Djakarta--
you could get all the booze and women you wanted").  Balikpapan was also
considered a cushy post, famous for its friendly women-folk, at least until the
Allies starting bombing the oil refineries there in the fall of '44, and the
island of Bali was so peaceful the entire Japanese garrison there amounted to
only one company.  Even here the Japanese soon made more enemies than friends
with regular displays of public drunkeness, random beatings of passersby by
drunken soldiers, even public fornication in Japanese restaraunts.  And
eventually there was a particularly vicious round-up of slave laborers on the
main island of Java-- speaking of this, Ienaga says "the unlucky Indonesians,
just like the Korean, Chinese, and Manchurian slave laborers, soon found out
who it was that prospered in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere."  I
might add that because of the limited mechanization and support services
generally found in Japanese Army formations the appetite of the military for
laborers was immense, and no matter what they were called they were treated
like slaves.  Their numbers ran into the hundreds of thousands.  In China
proper road crews were forced to work in heavy shackles, and were publically
beaten with large wooden clubs on their way to work and even while working.
Add in a starvation diet and the shooting of anyone incapable of working or
perceived to be slacking, and you get the idea.
        Well, enough of this, I guess.  I wanted to mention that practically
all of the above comes from Japanese, not western, sources.  I should also note
that I haven't even specifically mentioned the most famous Japanese atrocities
of the war, such as the rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march, the suffering
and in many cases death of most Allied prisoners of war, the rampage of murder
and destruction wreacked by Japanese marines on Manila just before it fell to
the Allies, etc...
        There is a Japanese side to the story, of course, and in my next post
I'll look at some of it, but the overall weight of the evidence in my mind is
that they fought a war of heartless and even senseless cruelty which no
civilized human being can condone.  This should, IMHO, be set against the
admittedly brutal fire bombings and the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima
in assessing blame for war atrocities.  Oh, yeah, and didn't they start the
shooting war??  Sowing the wind indeed...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

                "We Romanians will sell anything, even our country, but we
                        won't make delivery."

                        Bucharest street wisdom, circa 1949

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:50:30 +10
From:    David Murnain <murnaind@DRAKEN.BHPESE.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: BISMARK

Please stop writing 'Dorchester'. The ship involved was 'Dorsetshire'.
(A County class cruiser, other sisters/near sisters were Shropshire,
Norfolk, Suffolk etc., ie named after English counties. The design
evolved over several years and the ships varied in detail quite a bit.)


-------------------------------------------------------
David Murnain                           |"What is good, and what
murnaind@draken.itntl.bhp.com.au|is not good, Phaedrus.?
BHP Information Technology       |Need we ask others to tell us
Newcastle, Australia                  |these things."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:30:37 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN:Bill Huber

Sorry to post this to the group, still getting bounce mail delayed by three days
to you Bill.  You got another e-mail address that receives?  Let me know.

I am somewhat of a collector, ain't got much but books.

Semper Fi!
Chip
chipm@c.abac.peachnet.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:32:44 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marine Corps History

Ben--

Would be most interested in the posting for the Marine Corps!!

Semper Fi!
Chip

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:43:44 -0500
From:    Tim McFeely <ad658@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>
Subject: Re: North Africa

Jack McKillop wrote in a recent response on RADAR at Pearl Harbor:

<deleted>

>To save money, manpower, and wear and tear, the six mobile radar stations
>only operated during the following hours:

>  Sunday: 0400-0700
>  Monday thru Friday: 0700-1100 and 1200-1600
>  Saturday: 0700-1100

<deleted>

Can you imagine during the height of the Cold War, NORAD operating only
during these times!!! I realize the situation was different and RADAR was a
new concept, but...

Thanks for the story Jack. It filled in several gaping holes I haven't had
time to research in my PTO knowledge base.

A question to the list.

      Did we have enough airpower on the ground to deal with the Japanese
had we been able to get them launched and airborne? Or would it have been
just a futile effort?


Also in response to my earlier post concerning North Africa. Jack, thanks for
the OB for the 12th AF. I would appreciate the OB for the 9th as well
provided it is not too much trouble. In regards to combat loadout, shall we
say a P-40 in a Harrassment/Interdiction mission. What would they have
carried?

Tim McFeely
Ocean State FreeNet
ad658@osfn.rhilinet.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 1