Subject: WWII-L Digest - 7 Feb 1995 to 8 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:02:47 -0500

There are 68 messages totalling 2599 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WHAT-IF: ROOSEVELT AND
  2. Heavy AT's
  3. INF: 50 YEARS AGO (2)
  4. BRIEF HISTORY OF "GEKO
  5. ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT
  6. Where is Sesto Calende
  7. A "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit
  8. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-FEB-1945
  9. [INF] USAAF 8 FEB 45
 10. Ascension Island (2)
 11. unmentioned victims
 12. INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45 (2)
 13. WWII Diary (7)
 14. ME-262
 15. WANT: Map information
 16. Enola Gay Exhibit (6)
 17. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (3)
 18. 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv. (3)
 19. The 50 years ago mails
 20. Senator Dole
 21. MEDIA:Philippine Captive Remembers
 22. MEDIA:Lord Haw-Haw (2)
 23. MEDIA:Philippine Platinum?
 24. MEDIA:Enola Gay (2)
 25. still more on Enola Gay/Japanese atrocities
 26. Nova - Death Camp Engineers (5)
 27. INFO: Conc. Camp Admin
 28. WANT: Map Information
 29. ? native Americans during WWII
 30. DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPI... (2)
 31. OB for Hawaii (2)
 32. North Africa (2)
 33. Other Lists
 34. 320th Fighter Squadron (2)
 35. Pearl Harbor
 36. [INF] USAAF 9 FEB 45
 37. Japanese Peso
 38. RCAF Units In The RAF "Tiger Force"
 39. Roosevelt's son and his dog
 40. Seasickness (Was WWII Diary)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 01:23:50 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: WHAT-IF: ROOSEVELT AND

I don't see any reason for FDR not to have dropped the bomb. It was made under
his direction, and the only reason to think that he might not have made the
decision to do so is if the situation in the Pacific were different, i.e., the
Japanese had not fought as they did on Iwo and Okinawa. I feel certain that
Truman took into deep consideration the heavy casualties suffered by U.S.
forces and applied them to that which was expected in an invasion of Japan. At
least, that would have been my decision if I had been faced with the same
considerations. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:55:00 UTC
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Heavy AT's

I'm looking for peoples thoughts concerning the 128mm PAK 44 AT gun. There
were approx 51 barrels made but the carriages were not made by the end of
the war. The barrels were either mounted on French 155mm carriages or on the
Jagdtiger. There were two companies developing the carriages, Rheinmettal
and Krupp. The RH model allowed for 360 degree fire and the K model was of
similar design to the PAK 43. Given that the war lasted longer or
development started earlier, which design would have won out. I'm not too
familar with the backroom politics of the various arms producers in Germany.

John Cantley

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 01:41:11 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 YEARS AGO

The Republicans accused FDR of sending a cruiser to fetch Fala, who had been
left behind somewhere. I think that that was poppycock, in the truest Dutch
meaning of the word. I believe in the 1944 campaign in one of his speeches, FDR
said that the Republicans had been criticizing him, his wife, and his family,
and also Fala. He said that he and his family were not concerned, but Fala
wasn't going to take it anymore. I think that that somewhat diffused further
Republican attacks. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 02:10:28 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: BRIEF HISTORY OF "GEKO

Mike, your postings about the attempted Japanese coup at the end of the war are
extremely fascinating and interesting. Thank you for them. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 02:12:42 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

John, you just might ask the Air and Space Museum to send you a copy. I don't
know how else you could get one. It would take more time than I have available
to xerox it for you, and I have no gofers. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:33:50 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 YEARS AGO

Ben...

        Pappe-kack, indeed.
:-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 02:28:36 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Where is Sesto Calende

I just received a copy of the Squadron publication on the SM 79
Sparviero.

The first sentence states that Savoia-Marchetti's SIAI plant was at
Sesto Calende, north of Milan.

But then, so is Copenhagen.

At least now I can sleep at night.

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 06:32:17 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A "balanced" presentation of the Enola Gay exhibit

Again I recommend Gavan Dawes *Prisoners of the Japanese* (Morrow, 1994)
for those who would like to refresh their memories of what happened to
those unlucky enough to fall into the hands of Imperial Japan in the
1940s, in this case this the 140,000 American, Dutch, and British
Commonwealth (mostly Australian) white soldiers captured in the first six
months of the Pacific War.

Curiously, there was one full-blooded Japanese among them, Frank Fujita.
It took three years before a guard who prided himself in his English,
reading aloud the roster for sport, finally realized that this American
soldier had as good a bloodline as his own! Fujita's story alone is worth
the price of the book.

                 - Dan    <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 06:51:20 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-FEB-1945

On 09-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 1st Army continues to advance, taking Mihr,
Niel and Milligen and overrun the Siegfried LIne near Nutterden. In the
U.S. 1st Army sector, the 9th Division carries out the final assault on the
Schwammenauel dam, securing a large part of Hasenfelde. In the 3rd Army
sector, the 87th Division takes Neuendorf and make substantial progress
through the Siegfried Line. The III Corps extends and consolidates the
bridgehead east of the Our. The XII Corps strengthens the bridgeheads over
the Our and the Sauer. The French 1st Army completes the elimination of the
Colmar pocket. The French I Corps liquidates the last German bridgeheads
west of the Rhine in the Chalampe sector.

Philippines - The 37th Division, fighting south of the Pasig in Manila,
makes very small gains against very strong resistance. The 1st Cavalry
Division reaches the Pasig and begins crossing it. In the I Corps area, the
32nd Division continues its attack to clear the Villa Verd Trail. In the XI
Corps area, the 38th Division continues to eliminate Japanese positions in
the Zigzag. In the 8th Army sector, the 11th Airborne is meeting heavy
resistance at Nichols Field.

Burma - The British XV Corps completes the capture of Ramree Island.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 07:10:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 8 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 8 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 4 B-25s abort a mission
to the Masugawa River when unable to identify the target.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 10 P-51s knock out a bridge
at Shihtangchung and blast a bridge approach at Changsha; 9 other fighters
knock out another bridge N of Changsha; 4 fighters hit railroad targets of
opportunity from Linfen to Yutze to Shihkiachwang and bomb Tsinan Airfield.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): In India, HQ 58th Bombardment Wing (Very
Heavy) moves from Kharagpur to Hijli Base Area.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 72 P-47s support ground
forces in the Myitson area; 37 P-47s and P-38s hit troops, supply areas,
ammunition dumps, and targets of opportunity at Namsaw, Hsunkwe, Loi-Kong,
Nawng-un, Hsipaw, Panghai, and Kongnio, and bomb a village near Pangkawn.
Transports fly 581 sorties carrying men and supplies to forward bases and
dropping supplies to frontline areas. The 155th Liaison Squadron (Commando),
2d Air Commando Group, based at Kalaikunda, India with UC-64s and L-5s, sends
a detachment to operate from various bases in Burma.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 150 B-17s and 264 B-24s dispatched
to attack targets in W Germany are recalled before leaving the UK coast due
to clouds over bases, routes, and targets. 98 of 99 P-51s fly a sweep
strafing rail traffic and parked aircraft; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft. 11 of 13 P-51s escort photo reconnaissance aircraft over Germany.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 320+ B-26s, A-20s, and A-26s strike
a road junction, marshalling yard, 3 defended areas, and 10 casual targets in
Germany. Fighters fly armed reconnaissance, bomb numerous ground targets, and
support the US XII Corps which has, on 7 Feb, crossed the Our and Sauer
Rivers between Vianden and Echternach, Luxembourg and established
bridgeheads. HQ 406th Fighter Group and the 512th Fighter Squadron move from
Metz, France to Assche, Belgium with P-47s. The 39th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, Ninth AF, based at St Amand, France with F-5s, sends
a flight to operate from Le Culot, Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 500+ B-24s and
B-17s bomb SE Vienna communications targets and the marshalling yard at Graz,
plus several targets of opportunity; 270+ P-38s and P-51s escort. In
Yugoslavia, 12 B-24s drop supplies and 11 P-51s sweep the Zagreb area. Other
P-51s and P-38s fly reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 7/8
Feb, A-20s on intruder missions bomb various targets at 58 points in the Po
Valley and Brenner Pass area; medium bombers during the day attack bridges at
Calliano, Chiusaforte, Dogna and Piacenza; fighters and fighter-bombers
closely support US Fifth Army forces in the Serchio Valley where
counterattacks oppose the Allied offensive-and destroy the Nervesa della
Battaglia railroad bridge and oil dump N of Mestre.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 20 B-24s from Guam Island bomb radar and radio
installations and AA defenses on Iwo Jima Island in the afternoon; during the
night of 8/9 Feb, 10 B-24s fly single-plane snooper strikes against Iwo
Jima's airfields.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 27: 30 of 31 B-29s from the Mariana
Islands bomb Airfield Number 1 on Moen Island in Truk Atoll, Caroline
Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s bomb the town of Mariveles on Bataan Peninsula and B-25s sink or damage
several small vessels along the E coast and hit Legaspi Airfield. In Borneo,
B-24s bomb Manggar and Sepinggang Airfields. Units moving to San Marcelino,
Luzon: HQ 309th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Owi, Schouten Islands and the
421st Night Fighter Squadron, 86th Fighter Wing, from Tacloban, Leyte Island
with P-38s and P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:24:56 EST
From:    Frozen In Western Michigan!! <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

Bruno,

It just happens that last Saturday, our local PBS station showed the
Victory At Sea episode about the war in the South Atlantic ("Beneath
the Southern Cross").  Short mention was made of Ascension being
taken over as a forward anti-submarine base, and a stopover on the
route to North Africa.

I didn't make a connection to the time frame, but that item was in
proximity to Brasil's entry into the war on the Allies' side, so
Ascension may have been a terminus for a long range anti-submarine
route between there and Brasil.

Bruce.

B. L. Werner
Big Rapids, Michigan
Where nothing is big or rapid.
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:27:20 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: unmentioned victims

John Foster writes;

>  I don't want to enter into the Enola Gay debate but wonder why the people who
>are upset about the casualties at hiroshima arent equally as vocal about the
>huge loss of life in China during and after the Japanese germ warfare
>experiments and the proposed scope of that arm of warfare.

It becomes clearer when you consider who is on the sending end and who is
on the receiving end in either scenario. Then consider what happened to the
postage stamp, who objected, and who caved. Then think about who aborted an
entire exhibit rather than face the truth that the bombs might have had a
purpose. Think about who's tail is wagging whose dog.

Then look at all the Nissans on the road.
                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:32:11 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

Tim Scherrer asks:
>
>In this chronology--it says the 1st Dog Sled Team arrived--is this the
>first dog sled team---in other words--the first to arrive on the
>scene--or is it like the 1st Infantry Division.  Just curious.  TAS

I should have typed "1st" as "first" since there is no unit designation
in the source text. Weeks ago (50 years ago) 3rd Army requested the teams
from Twelfth Army Group since the snows were delaying aid to the wounded.
After the initial request, sources and channels were coordinated and on
8Feb95 the teams started to arrive. The irony is that the allocation
process was (of course would be) time consuming and of course, once the
program was in place, there would be a thaw and the wounded would be
more quickly evacuated by vehicle... :-/ but there was still half of winter
remaining. I suppose it is somewhat demostrable of Patton's impulsive
vehemence. According to Bradley, Patton's great lesson in supply was
on Sicily. But I think that Patton knew it would take time to get the dogs.
I also think that he did not want to wait one minute.

'my opinion - Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:53:35 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

> 5/28    Thur.   Finished packing, cleaned area, marched to train.  Rode
>                 for 1 1/2 hr to ferry.  Rode ferry to N.Y. harbor and got on
>                 U.S.S. Hermitage formerly Conte De Savoia.  Got installed in
>                 B Deck.
> 5/29    Fri.    Woke up out at sea, got sick.  Went aft for Orientation.  Saw
>                 convoy.
> 5/30    Sat.    Sick all day.  Got paid.
> 6/1     Sun.    Too sick to go to Mass on fantail.
> 6/2     Mon.    Sick all day.
> 6/3     Tue.    Sick all day.
> 6/4     Wed.    Sick all day.  Spent some time on deck but of not much use.
> 6/5     Thur.   Sick all day.  Spent some time on deck but of not much use.
> 6/5     Thur.   Felt little better today.  Ate a little.  Spent a lot of
>                 time on deck reading.  Felt good.

Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:29:58 -0600
From:    "C.K. Bryant" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:

> Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
> Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
> travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew

Drew:

I have discussed the topic of seasickness a number of times with my
grandfather.  Although he did not experience the problem, he did take
note of the situation among those around him.  He believed that when they
first started their voyage, the sickness was due to the fact that them
men were not accustomed to the movements of the ship.  However, once they
were accustomed, the seasickness tended to return whenever there were
U-Boat threats.  He believed that much of the problem was mental rather
then physical after the initial adjustment period.

Anyone else have some thoughts?   I'm interested in learning more too.

C.K.

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:36:28 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME-262

Emory,
According to the VERY nice new book from Monogram entitled V Missles of the
Third Reich: The V-1 and V-2, the total output of V-1s from January of '44 to
march of '45 was 3,0257. That breaks down into 23,748 in 1944 and 6,509 in
1945. To further break it down...

1944
Jan.  -   2500
Feb.  -   2000
March - 400
April - 1700
May  -  2500
June -  2000
July -   3000
Aug. -  2771
Sept. -  3419
Oct.   -  3387
Nov. - 1895
Dec. -   2600

1945
Jan. -      200
Feb. -    2482
March- 2027

I'm still looking for the production figures for the V-2. I can tell you that
there were just a little over 3,000 V-2s launched during the war.
If you want a break down of where and when these monsters went just mail and
I'll give it to ya.
Matthew

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:38:22 +0000
From:    Hugh G Henry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WANT: Map information

Have you checked out the official green-backed US Army histories? The
Centre for Military History has reprinted these in paperback form
*without maps* but I believe the others are still available.

Hugh G Henry
St John's College
University of Cambridge, UK

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Kevin Kamphaus wrote:

> Fellow WWII'ers
>
>   Can anyone recommend a good source for detail maps showing troop deployment in
> the ETO.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Kamphaus
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 22:51:41 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Enola Gay Exhibit

The Washington Post has published an article (which appeared in the Feb.
8th edition of the International Herald Tribune) on this subject.  It is
one of the most "journalistic" treatments of the subject I have seen.  I
would call it "swiss cheese"- smelly and full of holes.

I don't have the time to key it in but I did want to bring it list
members attention and elicit their reaction.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:31:17 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

>
> Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
> Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
> travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew

Hi Drew,

In the things I read it was quite common.  Sort of reminds me of a
joke that originates to that time.

Seems this young private was sending another serving of fine army
cuisine to the fish when his company first sargeant walks over to him
and says, "Weak stomach, huh, kid?" and the private answers "I dunno
sarge, I'm throwin it as far as anyone else....."

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:29:34 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]> writes:
> I can't comment on Pilots in parachutes but I have talked with many Germans
> who were young adults in late '44 and '45 who said movement in daylight was
> fraught with danger. US Fighters straffed anything that moved - Horses,
> dogs, children - Anything. The lady I most remember was an employee of
> mine, she had been about 14 and had to ride her bike from tree to tree,
> stop and look for fighters on the way to school & the way home. This has
> much to do with why Pilots shot down over Germany were stoned and
> pitchforked by the populace - the German soldiers saved a lot of pilots
> from a summary ending!

        My mother (b. 1926) lived in northern Italy during the war (in the
mountains, north of Udine, near the Yugoslavian border) and relates similar
stories (when she talks about them at all).  The one image burned into her
mind is of her best friend being gunned down by a lone US fighter.  For her,
there were no "good guys" in the war: the Germans and Cossacks were brutal
masters, the partisans killed anyone who didn't think like them or support
them (she was "drafted" into the partisans fearing their retribution if she
declined their invitation), and the Allies killed anything that moved.

Burt Knight <[email-masked]> writes:
>>I would like to bring the discussion toward the more dubious practices of
>>the British in which they would strafe enemy sea planes trying to rescue
>>*British* pilots....
>
>And radioing information back to German forces about shipping moving along
>the coast along with other violations of the Geneva conventions. Air-sea rescue
>craft were shot down by both sides. The Luftwaffe camouflaged their ASR craft
>and provided Fighter escorts. The RAF did the same.

        I wasn't referring to rescue aircraft flying around looking for
(or pretending to look for) downed pilots; I was talking about floatplanes
bobbing around in the water actually hauling *British* pilots aboard when
they were strafed by British aircraft.

        And speaking of ships moving along the coast, one British trick
was to reflag their merchantmen with French flags and sail them along
the French African coast.

Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]> writes:
> British people were strafed and shot at by German aircraft, especially
> during 1940 - 1941.
> Yet, there is not one documented case of British civilians ever murdering
> any German aircrew shot down there.

        Does Malta with British subjects count?  The Maltese were not known
for the charming hospitality they offered downed Italian pilots.  I recall
that the Maltese even killed a downed British pilot thinking that he was an
Italian.

        I must admit, though, that in light of Mike's detailed summary
of Japanese atrocities, these instances pale by comparison (except to
those involved).
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Don't fool around with the women -- their husbands carry
guns!  And don't forget the penalty for looting is death!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:31:45 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv.

Hi Joe,... do you know if there were any friendly fire casualties with the
converted design (I mean to initiated the "rounds") or was preemtive thinking
employed (a rarity) ?   -Al

>> February 5, 1945
>> -Tanks used by cavalry recon squadrons were being converted from M59 to
>>  M24. These conversions not only created a faster, more maneuverable tank,
>>  but also exchanged a new 75mm gun in place of the old 37mm.
>
>        Squadron's "M24 in Action" indicates that the M24 had to
>"make the rounds" to all the ETO troops so that they could familiarize
>themselves with its appearance.  Until then, German and Allied armor
>could be easily differentiated by looking at the roadwheel layout and
>suspension system of the vehicle.  The M24 had roadwheels characteristic
>of a Pzkw III so it was thought that troops might shoot at an M24.
>--
>Joe Barone
>[email-masked]
>These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
>of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
>we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:10:55 EDT
From:    Rodrigo Felix <[email-masked]>
Subject: The 50 years ago mails

   Hi!!!
       Last semester someone from the list posted this 50 years ago mails.
        If he is still around I would like to ask him to contact me, because
         I need information about the German movements from December 1944 to
            February 1945.

                                                  Rodrigo Felix.
                                                 Al283652@vmtecslp

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:01:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Senator Dole

Just to correct the record, it is the Senator's RIGHT arm that is disabled.  It is true that he frequently carries a pen or rolled up sheet of paper in his right hand, partly I assume to keep over-eager people from trying to shake hands.  He has talked several times about how considerate people offer to shake left handed.

[email-masked]

(Resident of Kansas and proud of my senator!)

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:09:52 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Philippine Captive Remembers

>From the DoD Newswire 8 February 1995

:JAPAN POWS RECALL LIBERATION

   LAS VEGAS  -- Margaret Sams remembers Japanese soldiers
knocking on her door in the Philippines and ordering her to prepare
three days' worth of food and clothing for herself and her
3-year-old son.
   Three days stretched into three years and two months in a World
War II prison camp where the young American mother gave birth to a
daughter and nearly lost her own life.
   Sams and her husband celebrated her 79th birthday on Saturday,
and the 50th anniversary of the American liberation of prison camps
run by occupying Japanese forces in the Philippines.
   They were among more than 560 survivors and rescuers who gathered
for their fourth reunion this weekend at the Gold Coast Hotel &
Casino. The liberators were members of the U.S. Army's 44th Tank
Battalion and 1st Cavalry Division, the first to liberate a Japanese
camp, on Feb. 3, 1945.
   "February third is a significant day for those of us in Santa
Tomas, and February fourth is the first time we were able to see the
(American) flag in three years," said Terri Johnson, one of the
reunion organizers who was interned during much of her teen-age
years.
   Santo Tomas was one of several camps in the Philippines.
   "We have people from all over the world here ... Australia,
England, Wales, the Philippines, Canada and all over the United
States," Johnson said. "It's a time to rehash. There were many, many
hard times."
   Sams and Johnson said the Japanese imprisoned them without making
preparations for housing or food, so many prisoners starved to
death.
   "A Red Cross official persuaded someone to let us have a shipload
of cracked wheat ... which was filled with little pink worms," Sams
said.
   Sams had left Oklahoma City for the Philippine capital of Manila
to join her first husband, an American engineer who later died when
his ship sunk on its way to Japan.
   She met her current husband, American Jerry Sams, shortly after
returning to the prison camp from a nearby hospital, which had
treated her ailing son, David.
   "Even though there were 4,000 faces, you could still spot a new
one, and I liked that one," Jerry Sams said.
   Years later, Mrs. Sams' book, "Forbidden Family: A Wartime Memoir
of the Philippines," recounts her experiences in the prison camps,
including the illness that almost killed her soon after her daughter
Gerry Ann was born.
   The couple returned to America immediately after the liberation
and now live in Chicago Park, Calif.

====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:14:36 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Lord Haw-Haw

>From the DoD Newswire 8 February 1995

:BRITONS PLEADED TO SPARE NAZI ALLY ``LORD HAW HAW''

     LONDON, Feb 7  - Hundreds of pleas to spare the life of
Nazi propagandist "Lord Haw Haw" failed to move the British government
after World War Two, according to official documents kept secret up
until Tuesday because of their sensitivity.
     The archives, originally intended to be sealed for 75 to 100
years, also included exhaustive files from police special branch and
the MI5 spying agency on the wartime activities of fascists and
communists in Britain.
     William Joyce, who opened his "Lord Haw Haw" broadcasts with the
phrase "Germany Calling, Germany Calling," was convicted and hanged
under the Treason Act in 1946. His defence was his U.S. birth but his
British passport established grounds for treason.
     Home Office (interior ministry) reports on the case predicted "a
distinct possibility that Joyce may be acquitted" on nationality
grounds and its officials received a welter of letters and telegrams.
     "It is unfair to treat Joyce in the same way as those being tried
for the Belsen atrocities," a Mrs Cope said, referring to the Nazi
concentration camp, in one of hundreds of letters, carefully
documented and acknowledged.
     Some argued the gallows for treason was "a relic of the barbarous
Middle Ages and mercy showed greatness." Some asked how a foreigner
could owe allegiance to the crown. Others said his views, given in an
upper-class drawl, were drivel or a joke.
     "I greatly fear if this miserable liar is hanged, very many
anti-Fascists, both now and later, will feel in their consciences that
a terrible mistake has occurred," Menzies Campbell, a Glasgow dentist,
wrote.
     There are police transcripts of his broadcasts in which he
regularly asserted Prime Minister Winston Churchill was not serving
Britain but "International Jewish Finance."
     The files showed special scrutiny of public feeling on the
release of British fascist leader Sir Oswald Mosley on health grounds
in 1943. Intelligence officers warned of working-class fears about one
law for the rich and one for the poor.
     Despite releasing records after around 50 years in a drive for
more open government, files on the 16-hour interrogation of Mosley for
his praise of Hitler and Mussolini remain under lock and key due to
political sensitivity or national security.
     After his release, an intelligence officer wrote: "A feeling
lingers that Mosley represents in this country all those things
against which we are fighting."
     "Amongst the non-working class the issue has died a natural death
but amongst the working class the opinion is one law for the rich one
for the poor," said another. "There are strong feelings about the
release but spontaneous comment is rare."
     There are also details about the case of John Amery, son of
former Indian State Secretary Leopold Amery, a gun-runner for Franco
who started pro-Hitler broadcasts from Berlin in 1942.
     The documents reveal prosecutors had serious doubts about Amery's
mental fitness. Amery was captured by Italian partisans in 1945, tried
for high treason and pleaded guilty after an attempt to prove Spanish
citizenship.
     Amery was hanged in December 1945. In the death cell, he told his
lawyers: "I ask only that when they hang me they first allow me to
shave carefully."

===

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:05:28 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Philippine Platinum?

>From the DoD Newswire 8 February 1995

:PHILIPPINES TO STUDY WORLD WAR II FIND

   MANILA, Feb. 7  -- Government scientists said Tuesday they are
forming an inter-agency committee to study a two-ton, bell-shaped
metal block believed by some to be $480 million worth of platinum.
   Authorities suspect the huge ingot was left behind by Japanese
forces when they fled the Philippines during World War II.
   But Science and Technology Secretary William Padolina said the
estimated worth of the platinum block exceeded the prevailing market
value for the precious metal.
   "Two tons (of platinum), my calculation is it will only be (worth)
$28 million or 700 million pesos," Padolina said.
   An official of the Metals Industry Research and Development Center,
an attached agency of the Department of Science and Technology (DOST),
told United Press International that the presence of such a huge
amount of platinum is a "mystery."
   "We have no idea what the Japanese in World War II would have done
with such a huge amount of platinum," said the official who refused to
be identified.
   President Fidel Ramos has ordered the formation of an inter-agency
task force led by DOST to study the find and confirm whether the metal
is pure platinum. The group also plans to call on Japanese experts to
shed light on the matter.
   Initial tests run by DOST showed the metal was platinum, but
Padolina said further examination is needed to verify the report.
   "We will get parts of it and test it using our equipment; using
modern techniques we can say whether its platinum or gold," Padolina
said.
   Padolina said very little platinum can be found in the Philippines,
and he suspects that the Japanese Imperial army may have collected the
material from other parts of the world and smelted it into the heavy
dome-shaped block.
   The National Bureau of Investigations seized the bell-shaped metal
block Saturday from a group of treasure hunters after an internal
dispute within the group forced one of its leaders to approach
government authorities.
   NBI Director Epimaco Velasco said the rare metal was part of the
legendary treasure hoard of Japanese Gen. Tomoyuki Yamashita in World
War II.
   "The Japanese people have been looking for this for several years.
This is part of the Yamashita treasure," Velasco said.
   He could not say, however, why he thinks the find is part of the
treasure that some say was hidden by retreating Japanese forces in
1945 in as many as 170 sites across the country.
   Some experts have dismissed the tale as a hoax, although the late
President Ferdinand Marcos, attempting to explain his personal wealth,
claimed he found part of the treasure.
   But NBI agents believe the platinum may have been meant for a
Japanese airplane manufacturing operation.
   But the MIRDC official said platinum "has a very limited industrial
use" and was too rare to be used in such a manner.
   "Platinum is rarer than gold, but its characteristics are more like
silver," the official said. "It is more commonly used as jewelry.
   Velasco said a treasure hunter discovered the metal using a map
given to him by his father, a soldier in the Japanese Imperial army
that occupied the country from 1942 to 1945.
   The treasure hunter, whose identity was withheld by the NBI, said
he enlisted the help of Filipino treasure hunters to recover the
precious metal from the seabed near the coastal town of Lal-lo in
Cagayan Province, 270 miles (432 km) north of Manila.
   Acting Justice Secretary Demetrio Demetria said he has provided a
security detail to the treasure hunter, who he said was the son of a
Japanese father and a Filipino mother.
   "A lot of people are claiming the find, a lot of people covet it,"
Demetria said.
   The dome-shaped ingot was found in May 1993 resting in the seabed
some 70 feet (21 meters) below the surface. After a struggle over
ownership of the treasure, the son of the Japanese soldier was frozen
out of the treasure-hunter group, prompting him to go to the
authorities.
   The NBI said it has information that a four-ton block of platinum
remains in the waters off the northern tip of the country.
   Under Philippine laws, any treasure found within territorial
boundaries is considered government property, but the finder is
entitled to a percentage of the recovery.
   "If it is a war booty, the sharing is 75 percent to the government
and 25 percent to the finder," Demetria said.

======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:02:21 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Enola Gay

>From the DoD Newswire 6 February 1995

:SMITHSONIAN HEADS INTO ROUGH TIMES AFTER THE ENOLA GAY DEBACLE

The New York taxi driver, who talked as if he had once been a
card-carrying member of the Communist Party, turned to his passenger
as the cab pulled up at the Cooper-Hewitt Museum. ``Hey, this is
part of the Smithsonian, isn't it?'' he said. ``Have you heard what
those bastards are doing to the Enola Gay?''
   His passenger had indeed. He was Michael Heyman, the secretary of
the Smithsonian Institution. And he had just met yet another World
War II veteran furious over the Smithsonian's plans to display the
Enola Gay--the plane that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima 50
years ago--in an exhibit that made the Japanese out to be innocent
victims of an unnecessary act of vengeance.
   The decision last week by the Smithsonian's Board of Regents to
cancel the controversial exhibit was inevitable, Heyman says, given
``gargantuan'' opposition from across the political spectrum. The
American Legion complained; so did 20,000 subscribers to SMITHSONIAN
magazine. Among the many veterans who protested that the atomic
bombing saved their lives by averting an invasion of Japan were two
of the Smithsonian's own regents--former congressman and World Bank
president Barber Conable and Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Perhaps
even more to the point, the opposition included key members of
Congress who were threatening to hold investigations and beginning
to talk ominously about cutting the $371 million federal
contribution to the Smithsonian, which makes up 77 percent of its
budget.
   Although the cancel lation of the exhibit has removed the
immediate threat of congressional retaliation, it is by no means the
end of the story. The Enola Gay incident has been a severe blow to
the reputation of a revered institution at a time when the
Smithsonian is trying to woo much-needed corporate sponsors for its
planned 150th anniversary celebration in 1996.
   And it has, if anything, inflamed a long-festering dispute over
how the Smithsonian ought to be telling the story of American
history. House Speaker Newt Gingrich heralded the victory on the
Enola Gay as the first battle in a new phase of the culture war.
``You are seeing a reassertion and a renewal of American
civilization,'' he told the National Governors' Association. ``The
Enola Gay fight was a fight, in effect, over the reassertion by most
Americans that they're sick and tired of being told by some cultural
elite that they ought to be ashamed of their country.''
   And Rep. Sam Johnson of Texas, newly appointed by Gingrich to the
Board of Regents, made it clear that more changes are coming:
``We've got to get patriotism back into the Smithsonian. We want the
Smithsonian to reflect real America and not something that a
historian dreamed up.''
   For now, the Smithsonian is in full retreat. Vietnam veterans'
groups will soon receive a letter saying that an exhibit on air
power in the Vietnam War, planned for the Air and Space Museum, will
be put off for at least five years. Heyman has promised the regents
he will review, and rectify where necessary, current exhibits that
board members believe reflect ``revisionist history.'' Board sources
told U.S. NEWS that Air and Space Director Martin Harwit will soon
be dismissed for his part in over seeing the planned Enola Gay
exhibit.
   The incident has also left curators and researchers throughout
the Smithsonian shellshocked. The institution has long enjoyed a
scholarly independence and a public reputation unique among
government institutions. Twenty-five million people visit its 16
museums each year. Its collections, from well-known icons to
recondite scientific artifacts--George Washington's false teeth and
Dorothy's ruby slippers to 300,000 sorted and labeled water
bugs--are universally admired by casual museumgoers and serious
researchers alike.

BACKLASH'S IMPACT.

``I'm anticipating a sort of political scrutiny we're not used to,''
says Robert Post, a curator at the American History Museum. A
half-dozen other curators contacted last week agreed. While many
disapproved of the way the Air and Space Museum had handled the
Enola Gay exhibit, they said they feared that the political backlash
would virtually end any attempt at providing context or
interpretation in exhibits. ``Once it's known that Air and Space sat
down to a line-by-line review of the script with the American
Legion,'' says Post, referring to the ultimately unsuccessful
negotiations that took place over the Enola Gay exhibit, ``who's
next? The Christian Coalition?''
   Like many museums, the Smithsonian has been gradually moving away
from a style of exhibit that curators derisively call the
``curiosity in a case'' approach. Most museum experts agree it was a
much needed change, especially for the stodgy Smithsonian. Under
Dillon Ripley, secretary from 1964 to 1984, the Smithsonian had
struck an unabashedly ``celebratory'' tone that glossed over
subtleties and emphasized the display of ``icons'' like the Hope
diamond, the first ladies' gowns, and the Wright Flyer. ``History
museums are becoming forums, not temples,'' says Prof. Edward
Linenthal of the University of Wisconsin.
   But Heyman and other Smithsonian officials admit that the change
to a more interpretive approach has occurred with virtually no
oversight by top management and no official guidelines. Heyman
acknowledges, too, that critics of ``political correctness'' in some
of the newer and more interpretive exhibits have a point and that
the museum has unnecessarily angered many of its supporters. Last
week, he met with top officials of the American Physical Society,
including two Nobel Prize winners, in an attempt to smooth over the
outrage provoked by one of these exhibits, ``Science in American
Life.'' This show infuriated many scientists--including the American
Chemical Society, which put up $5.3 million to underwrite the
exhibit--with its antitechnology tone, including large displays on
the atomic bomb, DDT and the supposed dangers of genetic
engineering, the latter illustrated with Frankenstein, scenes from
JURASSIC PARK and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
   ``Everyone came in loving the Smithsonian,'' says Marcel
LaFollette, a professor at George Washington University who served
on the advisory board for the exhibit. But she says the board became
disillusioned by the approach the curators were taking: ``There was
such a deliberate attempt to be negative rather than laying out the
history and letting people make their own judgments.''
   Another show that has raised hackles is an American History
Museum exhibit on life after the Revolution. It offers such insights
as, ``White Americans won and preserved their freedom from England
in large part through the labors of the African-Americans they
enslaved.'' A display of a paneled room in a small Virginia farmer's
house is presented with narration that deconstructs the wall
decoration as nothing but a reflection of the owner's status-seeking
``ambition.''

TREADING GENTLY.

Heyman is trying to finesse the whole situation by suggesting, in
effect, that the choice is not simply one of ideological,
inflammatory interpretation versus flag-waving mush. He has ordered
a review to develop basic guidelines for interpretive exhibits; one
possible outcome, he says, may simply be a recommendation to do
smaller exhibits. Shows like the one planned for the Enola Gay, he
says, which are ``half writing and half objects,'' are in any case
``an absolute disconnect'' with the visiting public; people are not
willing to spend the three to five hours required to go through them
and read everything.
   Another remedy, he suggests, may be to focus the interpretation
and context offered within an exhibit on explaining events as they
were understood and experienced by the people living at that time;
books or symposiums may be a better way to ``raise the questions
that have come up since,'' he says.
   Whatever the outcome, the days of the Smithsonian as a genteel,
scholarly place soaring above the political fray are clearly gone.
Robert McCormick Adams, Heyman's predecessor, who left last
September, ``saw it more as a university--the [museum] directors are
deans and they run their own show,'' says Heyman. ``Clearly that has
to change.''

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:36:02 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Frozen In Western Michigan!! wrote:

> Bruno,
>
> It just happens that last Saturday, our local PBS station showed the
> Victory At Sea episode about the war in the South Atlantic ("Beneath
> the Southern Cross").  Short mention was made of Ascension being
> taken over as a forward anti-submarine base, and a stopover on the
> route to North Africa.
>
> I didn't make a connection to the time frame, but that item was in
> proximity to Brasil's entry into the war on the Allies' side, so
> Ascension may have been a terminus for a long range anti-submarine
> route between there and Brasil.
>
> Bruce.
>
> B. L. Werner
> Big Rapids, Michigan
> Where nothing is big or rapid.
> [email-masked]
>

Thanks for the info:- every little bit helps :)
I'm amazed at how little information on the island's activities I've
been able to find over the years. For example, when I was preparing to
go there in the 1950's, all I had to go on was one short article in
the National Geographic! It's a shame how little there is on such an
interesting place.

        Bruno

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:41:55 -0800
From:    Dick Tripp <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

Anyone who has had the 'pleasure' of a cruise on a troopship can relate
to seasickness.  I do think it is partially mental.  I remember troops
standing on the pier in San Francisco becoming ill and losing everything.
However, conditions on the troopships (racks of bunks 4 high; stuffy, hot,
smelly and tightly packed) did nothing to alleviate the tendency for sea
sickness.  I can still remember the smell.   Dick.

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, C.K. Bryant wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:
>
> > Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
> > Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
> > travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew
>
> Drew:
>
> I have discussed the topic of seasickness a number of times with my
> grandfather.  Although he did not experience the problem, he did take
> note of the situation among those around him.  He believed that when they
> first started their voyage, the sickness was due to the fact that them
> men were not accustomed to the movements of the ship.  However, once they
> were accustomed, the seasickness tended to return whenever there were
> U-Boat threats.  He believed that much of the problem was mental rather
> then physical after the initial adjustment period.
>
> Anyone else have some thoughts?   I'm interested in learning more too.
>
> C.K.
>
> *******************************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
> *******************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:40:21 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 3rd Army Chronology - 08Feb45

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:19:42 EST Alan Wild said:
>February 8, 1945
>D-Day +247
>
>-3rd Army bridging units measured the speed of the currents in the Moselle
> at 16 ft/sec. There were losses in the river crossing.

That works out to 10.9 mph.  I guess there *were* losses in the river
crossing!  How the heck would you get a bridge built with that much water
coming down in the first place?

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:44:42 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: still more on Enola Gay/Japanese atrocities

        Needless to say, after taking the time to type that lengthy exposition
of Japanese atrocities and the benefits of having Japan's "unique culture"
shared with the other peoples of Asia, I was happy to see another posting
today specifically dealing with Japanese biological warfare experiments in
Manchuria, to which I also alluded more briefly in said post.  Now I guess the
next line of response is that the U.S. didn't always wear the white hat either
in the Pacific.  Yes, in war all sides tend to get down and dirty at times.
Its true that it was U.S. pilots who were repeatedly documented strafing
Japanese soldiers and sailors in the water after sinking their ships (for
example at the Bismarck Sea air-sea battle-- I think Toland, among others, make
reference to that.  Yoshida and others also describe it happening after the
YAMATO went down in '45).  O'Kane in "Wahoo" vividly describes the incident
where the sub's commander, "Mush" Morton, orders his men to sink Japanese life
boats after wiping out a small convoy (although even in this case Morton
specifically targeted the boats and not the men-- his reasoning that
they were close enough to Japanese-held shores that if not sunk the soldiers
being transported would soon wind up as infantry facing US troops-- a small
distinction but one I would have trouble imagining a Japanese officer in a
similar situation making).  A while back, when I was working in local
government as a borough manager, the chief of our small police department (two
full and two part-time officers), a guy by the name of Paul Perini, told me he
had served on the MISSOURI during WW2, and aside from his being part of the
honor guard at the surrender ceremony one of his most vivid recollections was
of a kamikaze attack where the plane missed and went down in the water.  The
pilot, still alive, crawled out on the floating wing, whereupon he was
instantly chopped to pieces by 20-mm fire from the "Mighty Mo."  Not exactly
sporting either.  And there are numerous occasions of Japanese prisoners, when
such were taken, being simply shot rather than brought in (of course, the
number of incidents where Japanese feigned surrender in order to draw US troops
close enough to take one of the enemy with them before dying might well have
encouraged this policy-- rumour greatly magnifying the number of actual
instances.  The suicidal nature of the enemy, well-documented, certainly would
tend to encourage the fighting man to consider this not a "war crime" but a
sensible precaution, given the general Japanese reluctance to surrender and a
demonstrated willingness to "fight dirty.")  And it is an undeniable fact that
both the widespread fire raids and the atomic bombings primarily targeted
Japanese civilians, like it or not.  Here us "good guys" sometimes pushed the
line a good bit, for example LeMay launching an 800+ plane raid on Japanese
targets on August 14th, with the publically stated aim of getting one last good
shot in before the surrender (of which he was aware) took effect.  And of
course there is the little matter of our internment of Japanese-American
citizens by the thousands.  That one is hard to explain away, but I would still
argue that there is a significant difference in degree between such actions as
the "Three-All Policy" and an arguably unfair, arguably racially- and
economically-motivated but still, in terms of living conditions for those
behind the wire, relatively benign internment policy (I'm not supporting the
policy per se, just pointing out that if you had your choice of being
        a.) a Japanese-American being interned
        b.) a European Jew being "resettled" by the Germans
        c.) an Allied POW in Japanese hands
        d.) a Soviet POW in German hands
        e.) a Chinese civilian under Japanese control
which one would you choose, assuming you didn't have a strong death wish?)
Our "race-hatred" came down to internment.  Their "East Asia Co-Prosperity
Sphere" included policies which can only be described as genocide.  Finally,
I'll leave it to the "what-if" people to explore the psychological and racial
overtones of the fact that we chose to employ our nastiest weapons, like napalm
and the a-bomb, against the Japanese instead of the Germans (of course, we
didn't have the atomic weapons in time to use against Germany, which is one
reason why its a what-if question.  Also, Germans were a lot more willing to
surrender without being faced with the unthinkable).
        Having said all that, I think its obvious what my conclusion is (and,
economic considerations aside, there's still that nagging question about who
shot first and who committed the first atrocities-- it sure wasn't us).
The Japanese abuses were so universal and systemic as to have to be considered
policy-- a specific policy of murder, torture, and economic spoilation.  I.e.,
they killed legitimate POWs on Bataan, at Rabaul, they executed downed fliers
over the homeland, executed the Marines on Wake Island, and apparently planned
to execute ALL the remaining US POW's if the home islands were invaded.  Etc,
etc, etc...
        The only thing I might say in defense, if that's a proper word for
atrocities on an indefensible scale, of the Japanese soldier is the words of
one US POW (quoted by Spector in "Eagle Against the Sun"), that is, "Sure they
beat us with baseball bats, but they beat EACH OTHER with baseball bats." It is
certainly true that the discipline in the Japanese armed forces was so brutal
that it is hard to see how it could breed anything but further brutality in the
men exposed to it.  The Japanese soldier or sailor was not only encouraged but
expected to die for the Emporer.  As Col. Sato, who commanded the leading wave
that landed on Corregidor put it, they were just "living bullets" to be
expended in the Emporer's service.  "Umi Yukaba," the unofficial anthem and
fight song of both the Army and Navy, translates in part
        "Across the mountains, corpses in the meadow
         across the sea, corpses in the water
         We will die, we will die..."
        (Boy, that would really fire me up for combat!)
When a military man was posted to overseas duty during wartime, he often cut a
lock of hair and trimmed his nails, leaving the hair and clippings so his
family would have part of him to cremate at his funeral, since it was just
assumed that he was going to be killed, and his body might not be recovered.
Needless to say, if the soldier was just waiting his turn to die, what happened
to him in the meantime was not a great concern.  Corporal punishment was the
rule in the Japanese military.  Saburo Sakai, in "Samurai," describes the
almost daily punishment inflicted on those who didn't meet the standards during
the Navy's basic training.  The recruit in question would be beaten across the
buttocks with a heavy cane, and then, to make sure all learned the lesson,
every other trainee in his unit would get one blow too.  If any of the recruits
made as much as a single outcry during this punishment, the entire unit would
receive the full number of lashes as the prime offender.  Yoshida in "Requiem
For Battleship Yamato" recalls that punishment on ship for a sailor failing to
salute was to order him to stand at attention, and then punch him in the face
up to five times.  Even junior officers could feel the fist of their superiors
in this manner.  Army methods were similar.  One of the men in "Peace Is Our
Duty" said that when he first arrived in China he was unable to eat hot soup
for several weeks because his mouth was so cut up from the nightly sessions
where the new men had to stand at attention while the older soldiers hit them
in the face with their barracks-shoes, a kind of sandal made of solid wood.
And this punishment was inflicted not even by non-coms per se, but by men
holding the rank equivalent to an American PFC or a German Gefreiter.  In the
same book another man describes how, on his arrival in China, he was assigned
to tend the horse which transported one of his battalion's two 70-mm pack
howitzers.   His sergeant immediately let him know in no uncertain terms that
the safety, comfort, and well-being of the animal took absolute precedence over
his own.  Ienaga cites further evidence of this thinking, including one from
his own pre-war school years, when, as his class was undergoing mandatory
military drill, their commander suspended the drill and ordered them to take
shelter during a driving rain.  Ienaga thought the man was being considerate
until the officer explained he was afraid the rifles would rust if they got
wet.
        Speaking of school, another contributing factor to the Japanese
brutality was the intensely nationalistic "schooling for conformity" (to quote
one of Ienaga's chapter titles).  I don't know what the exact Japanese
translation of the term "Chink" is, but apparently it was a word widely used in
pre-war Japan.  After a great victory in the Sino-Japanese war of 1894, the
faculty at one high school wrote and posted a poem commemorating the battle,
which ended with the lines,
        "Chink, Chink, Chink, Chink
        So stupid, and they stink"
        Apparently "race-hatred" was not a uniquely American quality.

        Well, I'm out of time and breath.  This should all get me labelled as a
reactionary, xenophobic, Japan-basher, which is pretty funny considering my own
political inclinations, but its a part of the story that needs to be told and
remembered as we "rewrite" the history of the great Pacific war.  The thing
that really riles me is that the Japanese seem to show an immense reluctance to
confront their own history.  Because some friends of mine lived in an apartment
building that also housed several waves of medical students on a special
exchange program with Bonn University, I got to meet and befriend a number of
younger Germans in the past few years.  They were very frank and very
embarassed about their nations' past, although maybe a little sick of hearing
about it, but their realization of some of the crimes of their forefathers
seemed to result in a determination not to let that sort of thing happen again
in their country.  The neo-Nazi gangs in the east after the recent German
reunification terrified them.   Contrast this with Japan, where standard
school texts show how western economic pressures left them with no choice but
to go to war, and come perilously close to echoing the "Prosperity Sphere" line
of reasoning that they were only trying to free Asia from colonial oppressors
(not bothering to mention that the colonial system was actually replaced in
most of the countries they controlled-- I'm giving them the benefit of the
doubt in Burma and Thailand-- by an even more brutal form of exploitation).  Or
the example cited earlier on the list of young Japanese who knew all about
Hiroshima but nothing of the Bataan death march, etc, or even that Japan had
waged what the world considered to be a war of aggression.  More later...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

                "Lenin gave us a country, and we turned it into s--t"

                        An allegedly drunk Stalin to Krushchev, a few days
                                after the start of Barbarossa

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:14:03 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

  I know this subject has been talked about... I wondered if anyone else
had seen this program.

  I'd like to share a summary of what I gleaned from the PBS Nova program
which aired last night on Channel 2 in New England. As the title suggests,
research was done in architectural archives which had been ignored for a
period of time. The archives provide this general scenario:

(please pardon my spelling)

  Late in 1941, deaths in concentration camps due to disease were very
high. Corpses required disposal and cremetoria were built. Underground
morgues were converted and new buildings constructed to experiment with
a pesticide, Zyclon, as a death agent, per order of Himmler.
Mass graves proved ineffective since water supplies became tainted and
frost exposed many of the burial sites. The bodies were exhumed and burned.
Later the "morgues" were designed next to the cremetoria and designated for
"special action" use on architectural forms. Ventilation systems were
efficient to clear the room of gas in a short time. Underground "morgues"
which previously had slides and chutes on which the dead were slid down
now had stairs; big-time evidence that the victims of the cremetoria were
eventually led to their deaths under their own power. The numbers on one
form which was presented provided rates at which the operation could be
run,... some sites at over 1000 bodies/hour. The camp, Birkenau (spelling?)
was designed for something like 75,000 prisoners and later, documents were
adjusted to provide for 125,000 prisoners. It was the largest of the camps.
That's what I gleaned without taking notes. My eyes watered several times.
Devastating. A Russian soldier was interviewed. He said that after witnessing
the camp his unit had overrun, he was overcome with intense hate and simply
wanted to kill Germans.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:50:10 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>
>        My mother (b. 1926) lived in northern Italy during the war (in the
>mountains, north of Udine, near the Yugoslavian border) and relates similar
>stories (when she talks about them at all).  The one image burned into her
>mind is of her best friend being gunned down by a lone US fighter.  For her,
>there were no "good guys" in the war: the Germans and Cossacks were brutal
>masters, the partisans killed anyone who didn't think like them or support
>them (she was "drafted" into the partisans fearing their retribution if she
>declined their invitation), and the Allies killed anything that moved.
>

Sounds like your mother was in a tough spot - just like my relatives in Ukraine

1941            "Welcome German Liberators" signs
1941-1944       German jack boot to the head
1944            "Welcome Russian Liberators" signs
1944-45         Russian jack boot to the head
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:48:15 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:29:07 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
>Ken, can you disprove my statement?
>
>Extrapolating from IwoJima and Okinawa yield losses form 200,000 to
>25 million casualties, way above 60,000.
>
>John E. Kollar

I think you misunderstood the context, but even so, your "extrapolation"
is anything but *proof*.

ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:49:57 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:27:33 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
>Ken, absolutism or elitism, in either direction, is no good.
>I don't like how they organized the setup, got flack for how they
>put it together and then caved in.  That is why they should be fired.
>They put what they wanted on the exhibit and when other historians
>disagreed they just canned the whole exhibit, is that the 'good'
>thing to do Ken?  you tell me.

Hell no--haven't you read any of my other posts?  I'm pretty steamed
that I'm not going to get a chance to see this exhibit.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:53:43 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:35:40 -0500 John E. Kollar said:
>I got a book that goes through the paper trail, and for taking Kyushu,
>the given casualties are 50,000 for that island alone, also that
     <estimates deleted>
>P.S. I will get the name of the book for Thursday.
>
Thank you kindly.
>Ken, does this suffice?

Nope.  Speculation is still speculation.  It's your estimate against
someone else's.  If you want to treat this as an historical subject, you
have to figure out how the estimates were made.  Your original statement
categorically states that one particular estimate was *absolutely* false--
no "agree to disagree", no "good faith effort", no "difference of opinion"--
just God-given, descended-from-on-high, false.  Fine.  I called you on it
for a reason:  too many people accept any wild figure they can get their
hands on as gospel--this would be true even of the soi-disant revisionists,
if they don't bother to give the provenance of their figures either.

So your task is to prove that estimate a is better than estimate b, in fact
that b cannot possibly be true.   This isn't going to be easy in an email
forum, but you are welcome to try:  the only approach that makes sense to
me is to determine how the estimates were made (which is *not* the same
as finding a document showing what the estimate *is*) & find specific
flaws in the methodology.  Incidentally, you first have to cope with an
estimate of 0, made in 1946 by the US Army Air Corps (-:

Best of luck to you,
ken koester

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:55:55 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

>Anyone who has had the 'pleasure' of a cruise on a troopship can relate
>to seasickness.  I do think it is partially mental.  I remember troops
>standing on the pier in San Francisco becoming ill and losing everything.
>However, conditions on the troopships (racks of bunks 4 high; stuffy, hot,
>smelly and tightly packed) did nothing to alleviate the tendency for sea
>sickness.  I can still remember the smell.   Dick.
>

When my father joined the navy in '43 he first served on a submarine chaser
out of New York City.  The crew was filled with a bunch of long time salts
and on their first extended patrol may dad remembers being sick as a dog
for about 3 or 4 days.  The seaman who did the cooking fed my father cup
after cup of Tomato soup (imbetween visits topside) and told him that the
soup was the old time cure.

The only good thing out of the whole experince for him was that when he
transferred to his new destroyer (U.S.S. Allen M. Sumner) he had already
spent 6 months at sea thus while most of the crew were fresh out of
bootcamp.  While most of the crew was sick, he was able to execute some old
time harashment out to the sailors, thus moving him up the old salt pecking
order.

P.S.  He told me that one of their favorite tricks on the sub chaser was
whenever a new crewman reported in, they would wait until the sailor went
under for the night and then the entire crew would rush up topside.  In
unison they would run from one side to another rolling the ship and quickly
scaring the hell out of him or qetting him in the Tomato soup line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:57:22 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: INFO: Conc. Camp Admin

Thank you to the many people who have responded to my questions regarding
the SD, Gestapo, and SS camps.  By my misinterpretation of the Totenkopf
Division, the subject has somewhat drifted.  My point was that neither the
SD nor the Gestapo, nor indeed the Reich Main Security Office had any
input as to the administration of the concentration camps at any time
in the Reich history.  They could get people out, transmit execution
orders, but were not involved in the administration.  This is what I
believe to be the case based on my minimal readings.  Does anyone disagree?

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:03:33 -0500
From:    Pat Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

I saw that NOVA last night too (Channel 26, Washington, D.C.).
Very informative.  Most telling was the change made from one set
of blueprints to another where the slides to the morgues were
replaced with stairs.  At that point, one can argue, the crematoria
weren't just for disposing of inmates' bodies anymore; they were
for the systematic killing of inmates.  It was a well-done program
if anyone happens to catch a rerun.

patrick

--
Patrick D. Marsden            | Naval Research Laboratory    | Opinions are mine
Computational Physics, Inc.   | Code 7641                    | and mine alone.
Planetary Atmospheres Section | Washington, D.C.  20375      |    * RKBA *
(202)-404-8229                | [email-masked]  | Live Free or Die

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:05:01 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv.

Alan Wild <[email-masked]> writes:
> Hi Joe,... do you know if there were any friendly fire casualties with the
> converted design (I mean to initiated the "rounds") or was preemtive thinking
> employed (a rarity) ?   -Al

        "M24 Chaffee in Action" has a photo of troops milling around an M24
with one fellow standing on the chassis.  There is a wooden sign hanging from
a highlight which reads "American tank - M24". The caption reads:  "This
officer is instructing men of the 39th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry
Division on the recognition points of the M24.  The torsion bar suspension
of the M24 gave it a "German" look and to avoid cases of mistaken identity
M24s toured various units to familiarize troops with the Chaffee."  There
was no mention of any "accidents" so it may have been purely preventive
in nature.

        To go back to the original article, did you mean M59 or M5?  The
"In Action" book states that the M5 Stuart (not to be confused with the
M3 Stuart!) was replaced by the M24.

        I'll post some more info on the M24 as time permits.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Crap Game: Are you nuts?  What's more important than 16 million dollars?
 Odd Ball: Come over tonight and find out...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:07:46 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WANT: Map Information

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  08-Feb-1995 03:04pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: WANT: Map Information

    I have several of the US Army histories reprinted in paperback
    (commemorative editions) and they _do_ have the maps of the original
    editions.  They are in separate tyvec-envelopes.

    Doug

Received:  08-Feb-1995 03:07pm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:18:14 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

Hello, Alan!

>   I know this subject has been talked about... I wondered if anyone else
> had seen this program.

    Yes, and it was very informative, and a well-done documentary. I
was glad to see them treat the subject of personnel who actually
built or designed the crematoria.

    Thanks for the summary.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:31:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ? native Americans during WWII

Hello, Tiffany!

I just saw your message, and will try to respond.

There is an article in a Readers' Digest that I saw recently that
contains info on this topic. It is called "The Navajo Code Talkers".
Will have to get you the pertinent info and will get back to you.

> Could anyone recommend resources, or send a quick minimal account of the
> service of Native Americans in the military services during WWII?

    The most famous native-American to serve in WWII would have to be
Marine Private Ira Hamilton Hayes of Arizona. He was one of the six
Marines who hoisted the flag atop Mt. Suribachi during the Iwo Jima
campaign of 19 Feb-26 Mar 1945. This flag raising was the second one,
not the first one. A movie was made of his life starring Tony Curtis.
He just happened to be there when Joe Rosenthal snapped the pic that
became one of the most famous military works of art to come out of
WWII.

    To my knowledge, all or most of the native-Americans to serve in
the Armed Forces during WWII were in the Marine Corps.

    Hope this has been of some help.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:35:24 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Hello, Chris!

I think you are absolutely correct. For those in a combat
situation, you have to tune out the horror of war to remain sane, it
seems to me, and also hate your enemy.

Thanks, again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:42:13 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

On seasickness in Troop Transports = from my Grandfather's WW1 Diary:

September 24, 1917
'First day <out>- Never to be forgotten.- I don't believe I was born to be a
sailor. Breakfast in the main galley- everything fine until 9 AM, began to feel
goggy???? Got my bearings to the rail- Went to latrine-. Something like a
mighty hand gripped my stomach and squeezed------- Words can't depict the
reality- '

Wrong war but I'd say the same thing happened to each group in each war.  He
was finally able to leave his bunk 2 days later and was on limited duties for
another 3.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:47:43 -0500
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPI...

HI all,
It appears to me that the casualty planning data generated by McArthur's
headquarters would not include the naval casualties which would come from
attacks by Japanese aircraft. Can anyone establish this?  It also appears
that in his personal communication we have a typical example of a commander
concerned about what higher headquarters thinks of his proposed course of
action and an effort to downplay prospective casualties as a potential source
of criticism.

best wishes

john sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:58:00 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

At  1:14 PM 2/8/95 -0500, Alan Wild wrote:

>Ventilation systems were
>efficient to clear the room of gas in a short time. Underground "morgues"
>which previously had slides and chutes on which the dead were slid down
>now had stairs; big-time evidence that the victims of the cremetoria were
>eventually led to their deaths under their own power.

Is this to say that they walked to the crematoria and we burned alive?
This is something that I have never heard. In the pictures that I have
seen, the crematoria looked like bread ovens.  They looked like they would
only take a body that was already lying down.

Sorry, but I would really like to know.

Nechama
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:21:26 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: OB for Hawaii

Someone asked if the air forces on hawaii could have made
a difference if they got off. From someone elses definitive
post on OB on 7 DEC 41 for Hawaii  is as follows:
AN DEPARTMENT, US ARMYHAWAII
----------------------------
Hawaiian Air Force, Hickam Fld, TH
14th Pursuit Wg, Wheeler Fld, TH
15th Pursuit Gp (Fighter), Wheeler Fld, TH
45th Pursuit Sqd (Fighter) (P-36A)
46th Pursuit Sqd (Fighter) (P-36A, P-40B)
47th Pursuit Sqd (Fighter) (P-40B, P-36A)
72d  Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (none)
18th Pursuit Gp (Interceptor), Wheeler Fld, TH
6th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B)
19th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B, P-40C)
44th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor), Bellows Fld, TH (P-40B, P-40C)
73d  Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B)
78th Pursuit Sqd (Interceptor) (P-40B)
18th Bombardment Wg, Hickam Fld, TH
5th Bombardment Gp (Heavy), Hickam Fld, TH
4th Reconnaissance Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
23d  Bombardment Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
31st Bombardment Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
72d  Bombardment Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18))
11th Bombardment Gp (Heavy), Hickam Fld, TH
26th Bombardment Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
42d  Bombardment Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
*50th Reconnaissance Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)
19th Transport Sqd, Hickam Fld, TH (C-33)
58th Bombardment Sqd (Light), Hickam Fld, TH (A-20)
86th Observation Sqd, Bellows Fld, TH (B-12, O-47, O-49)

Think maybe it was one of Jack's posts that i snaffled this from :)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:28:52 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Peter,
        I did a Nexis search and pulled up two articles in the Feb 8
International Herald Tribune concerning the Enola Gay.  The first one was
very critical of the Smithsonian for towing the Politically Correct party
line.  The second one, penned by Coleman McCarthy, was unadultered
garbage.  It was left wing reactionary drivel.
        Although I believe my posting has strayed from the list's
subject, I would like to point out that there are two articles in the IHT
dealing with the Enola Gay exhibit.

Patrick Charles
[email-masked]

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Peter E. Beal wrote:

> The Washington Post has published an article (which appeared in the Feb.
> 8th edition of the International Herald Tribune) on this subject.  It is
> one of the most "journalistic" treatments of the subject I have seen.  I
> would call it "swiss cheese"- smelly and full of holes.
>
> I don't have the time to key it in but I did want to bring it list
> members attention and elicit their reaction.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:39:36 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: North Africa

9th in North Africa: I would have to search a while for the complete OB but the
9th was a Strategic Air Force in North Africa, at least thru August '43,
equipped with B24's. Operation Tidal Wave <Ploesti, August 1, 1943) was carried
out by 9th AF B24s operating from Libya, and the 'Lady Be Good' was a 9th AF
aircraft.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:22:28 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

Might I suggest that the members of the mailing list pitch together some
funds and hire a group of independent statisticians?  (Much like the ones
I work with every day).  Have them record all the statistics for the Pacific
campaign and then extrapolate into an independent assessment of the probable
casualties suffered during a home island invasion?

(I already know I don't have to see the results -- it'll support the larger
numbers).

Now, statistics are just that -- mathematical models based on recorded and
verifiable trends.  The extrapolation takes into account everything that is
possible, but in no way can account for every possibility.

Now, doing statistics on the statistical reliability shows that the high
reliability of estimates based on good data (and WWII is just chock full of
all sorts of good data) explains why statisticians are almost always called
as expert witnesses in large court cases and why their results are almost
never challenged (when there is a challenge, it's the principal investigator
or the techniques that are challenged).

Can either estimate be PROVED?  No.  Not without time travel and changing the
cource of history.  Can a number be shown to be statistically probable against
all others?  And can that estimate be highly reliable?  Absolutely.  And
without pouring over every word and detail of what was known then (AND now),
it seems all that work has already been done.

With an appropriately sized research grant, I'm sure this argument can be
statistically settled once and for all.  Again.

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:24:19 -0500
From:    "Patrick.Johnson." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Other Lists

Readers,

        I am curious to know if there are related lists for Korea,
Vietnam and other 20th century military conflicts. If there are could
someone please forward their addresses to me.
        Second, I work for the Stars & Stripes, the military veterans and
retirees paper. If anyone has an issue they would like to spread on a
national forum please contact me.  I wish I had been paying more
attention to the uproar on the list about the Enola Gay because that
would have made a good story, Oh well, my loss.

Patrick
!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*
Patrick Johnson                                   Voice (202) 829-3225
Stars & Stripes newspaper                         Fax   (202) 829-5657
*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!!*!*!*!
[email-masked]                         Great Minds have Purpose
Annandale, Virginia                               others have Dreams.
                                                  -Washington Irving
!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:55:37 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Enola Gay

[...]
BACKLASH'S IMPACT.

``I'm anticipating a sort of political scrutiny we're not used to,'' says Robert
Post, a curator at the American History Museum. A half-dozen other curators
contacted last week agreed. While many disapproved of the way the Air and Space
Museum had handled the Enola Gay exhibit, they said they feared that the
political backlash would virtually end any attempt at providing context or
interpretation in exhibits. ``Once it's known that Air and Space sat down to a
line-by-line review of the script with the American Legion,'' says Post,
referring to the ultimately unsuccessful negotiations that took place over the
Enola Gay exhibit, ``who's next? The Christian Coalition?''
[...]

***

WOW!  What exactly is Mr. Post trying to say here?  GOD FORBID, THE CHRISTIAN
COALITION!!  (Oops, replace the above-mentioned "GOD" with "Pick Any Other
Deity").

I wonder if Mike Fetters can comment the SI's way out of this one!  I don't envy
him his job.

But I'm headed way off-topic way-fast.  Sorry.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:06:53 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nova - Death Camp Engineers

> Is this to say that they walked to the crematoria and we burned alive?
> This is something that I have never heard. In the pictures that I have
> seen, the crematoria looked like bread ovens.  They looked like they would
> only take a body that was already lying down.
>
> Nechama

No, they only burned corpses (except in one case where an inmate was
burned to death in a crematoria as punishment - but that was not
mentioned in the program).  The point the original author was making
is that before there were chutes or a slide sort of apparatus to feed
bodies into the building.  Those chutes were removed and stairs were
then used to bring people in to be gassed in the former morgues.
Point being that it was easier to bring dead folks down to the chamber
for cremation using gravity (the slide) so why take it out unless
people were marched down into the building live, killed in the
chambers and then burned.

That was an excellent documentary by the way, if it comes around again
I *highly* recommend it if you missed last nights broadcast.  The
phone number to order a copy of the program is 1 800 255 9424 and the
title was "Nazi Designers of Death".  A first rate analysis for anyone
who is interested and uses a lot of data from recently acquired Soviet
archives.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:15:46 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv.

You wrote:

>
>Hi Joe,... do you know if there were any friendly fire casualties with
the
>converted design (I mean to initiated the "rounds") or was preemtive
thinking
>employed (a rarity) ?   -Al
>
>>> February 5, 1945
>>> -Tanks used by cavalry recon squadrons were being converted from M59
to
>>>  M24. These conversions not only created a faster, more maneuverable
tank,
>>>  but also exchanged a new 75mm gun in place of the old 37mm.
>>
>>        Squadron's "M24 in Action" indicates that the M24 had to
>>"make the rounds" to all the ETO troops so that they could familiarize
>>themselves with its appearance.  Until then, German and Allied armor
>>could be easily differentiated by looking at the roadwheel layout and
>>suspension system of the vehicle.  The M24 had roadwheels
characteristic
>>of a Pzkw III so it was thought that troops might shoot at an M24.
>>--
>>Joe Barone
>>[email-masked]
>>These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
>>of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
>>we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.
>
>Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
>ACC - Lippitt - URI
>Kingston, RI  02881
>
>American Legion, Post 102
>I am the NRA.
>
>
Don't you all mean converting from M5 (Stuart) (not M59) to M24
(Chaffee)?

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:35:12 PST
From:    Peter Trott <[email-masked]>
Subject: 320th Fighter Squadron

My Dad was inducted into the Army Air Corp in 1942, and eventually assigned
to the 320th Fighter Squadron at Westover Field.  While there, his artistic
abilities were found out, and he spent much of his first three months with
the 320th painting nose art on P-47s.  He was then sent, on detached
service, to the gunnery school at Suffolk Air Base in the middle of Long
Island, and after some time there, he was sent overseas on detached service
to the 321st Bomb Group, first in Corsica, then Italy.

Question: Did the 320th Fighter Squadron ever see overseas duty?  If so,
where were they on D-Day?  The reason I ask is that I got Dad to paint
a piece of nose art on the back of an A-2 bomber jacket for me, and the
painting includes a P-47 with invasion stripes.  (It actually turns out
to be more of a portrait of the P-47, diving with guns blazing, then
a piece of nose art...)  But the invasion stripes got me to wondering
if Dad's nominal outfit ever did make it overseas.

If I had a scanner, I'd post a picture of the painting.  It is gorgeous.
And the historical connection of the painting to a man who actually did
decorate the nose of these beautiful planes adds immeasurably to its
aesthetic qualities.

Thanks, everyone, for any information you can give me.  This is the most
interesting and flame-free group I have seen on the net.

Peter Trott ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:21:29 EST
From:    Paul Gregor <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DOC: Re: Operation OLYMPI...

Dugout Doug forget the Navy? I can't beleive that! :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:27:32 -0400
From:    "D.J. or Wendy Owens" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Pearl Harbor

        A friend of mine asked me if I could post a request for her, so
    here goes:
        If you or someone you know has a first-hand recollection of the
    Pearl Harbor disaster, please send a message to [email-masked]
    Thank you very much for any help that you may be able to give.  I
    really appreciate it!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:05:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 9 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 fighters hit rail bridges
in the Kiyang and Lukou areas, damaging 1 bridge; several trucks are strafed
and destroyed; 3 fighters on a railroad sweep destroy several locomotives
between Peking and Sinsiang; several other fighters bomb railroad yards at
Kaifeng and the airfield at Sinsiang; Chinese-American Composite Wing (CACW)
fighters make a surprise strike at Tsingtao Airfield, and claim about 100
aircraft destroyed and damaged, and also destroy several nearby locomotives.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 10 B-25s damage a bridge
at Tonglau and destroy 1 bridge and damage another at Ke-hsi Mansam; 2 others
pound trucks, gun positions, and buildings during a road sweep from Hsipaw to
Loilem to Lashio; 9 P-47s knock out a bridge at Bawgyo and damage another at
Inailong; 22 P-47s support ground forces in the Myitson area; troops,
supplies, and communications are attacked at Tangtong, Man Mau, Se-u, Mansam,
Panghai, Na-lang, and Man hpat by 40+ fighter-bombers. 479 transport sorties
are flown to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 824: 1,296 bombers and
871 fighters in 6 forces hit oil targets in Germany; except where noted,
attacks were made with PFF; they claim 61-4-22 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 bombers
and 5 fighters are lost:
  1. 313 B-24s are sent to hit the Rothensee oil plant at Magdeburg (10); 268
hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at Magdeburg; targets of
opportunity are Tarchen (9) and Quackenbruck Airfield (1); the Magdeburg
attacks are made using H2X; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 51 damaged; 14 airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 20 MIA.
Escorting are 151 of 173 P-51s; they claim 9-0-5 aircraft in the air and
1-0-0 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  2. 198 of 311 B-17s hit the secondary target, the munitions industry at
Weimar; targets of opportunity are the marshalling yards at Giessen (25)
and Gottingen (15), the munitions industry at Eisenach (11), Jena (11) and
Fulda (24) and other (4); attacks are made using H2X and visually; they claim
0-0-1 aircraft; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 7 damaged; 1
airman is WIA and 28 MIA. The escort is 271 of 274 P-51s; they claim 8-1-3
aircraft in the air and 2-0-9 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1
damaged beyond repair.
  3. 304 B-17s are dispatched to the oil plants at Lutzkendorf (233); 12 hit
the secondary target, Erfurt; targets of opportunity are Eisenach (13, using
H2X radar), Eisleben (13), Montesada (11) and other (3); all attacks except 1
were visual; 1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 64 damaged; 6 airmen
are KIA, 3 WIA and 26 MIA. 193 of 215 P-51s escort and claim 2-1-0 aircraft
in the air and 34-0-3 on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1
damaged beyond repair.
  4. 64 of 65 B-24s hit the Schildesche rail viaduct at Bielefeld using Gee-H
without loss. 39 of 40 P-47s escort without loss.
  5. 151 B-17s are sent to hit the Altenbeken rail viaduct at Paderborn
(72) and the Arnsberg rail viaduct (75) using Gee-H; 1 B-17 is lost and 1
damaged. 47 of 53 P-51s escort without loss.
  6. 107 of 152 B-17s hit the secondary target, oil plants at Dulmen using
Micro H; 21 hit a target of opportunity, the marshalling yard at Munster with
H2X radar; 10 B-17s are damaged. Escorting are 55 of 60 P-51s without loss.
  7. 33 of 35 P-51s fly a scouting mission; they claim 5-1-0 aircraft in
the air without loss.
  8 20 of 21 P-51s escort photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 347 A-20s, A-26s, and
B-26s bomb communications centers at Viersen and Kempen, marshalling yards at
Rheydt, Grevenbroich, and Viersen, and rail bridges at Neuwied-Irlich and
Sinzig. Fighters fly armed reconnaissance over the E and W of the Rhine
River, attack rail bridges, and support US XII Corps bridgeheads across the
Our and Sauer Rivers. In France, HQ 323d Bombardment Group (Medium) and the
453d, 454th, 455th and 456th Bombardment Squadrons move from Athies Airfield,
Laon to Prouvy Airfield, Denain and Valenciennes (454th) with B-26s; HQ 410th
Bombardment Group (Light) and the 644th, 645th, 646th and 647th Bombardment
Squadrons (Light) move from Coulommiers to Juvincourt with A-20s; and the
669th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 416th Bombardment Group (Light) moves
from Melun to Athies Airfield, Laon with A-26s. HQ 405th Fighter Group and
the 511th Fighter Squadron move from St Dizier, France to Ophoven, Belgium
with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): During the night of 8/9 Feb, 1
B-17 and 10 B-24s drop supplies in N Italy. During the day in Austria, 49
bombers hit the Moosbierbaum oil refinery; 5 others bomb marshalling yards at
Graz and Bruck an der Mur. 11 B-24s drop supplies in C Yugoslavia, while
P-38s and P-51s fly reconnaissance missions and reconnaissance and supply
escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 8/9
Feb, A-20s and A-26s on intruder missions attack communications targets
throughout the C and NE Po Valley; weather restricts daytime operations to
weather reconnaissance and supply dropping missions.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 22 B-24s from Guam and Saipan Islands bomb airfields,
defense and radar-radio installations and AA positions on Iwo Jima Island;
during the night of 9/10 Feb, 11 more B-24s from Saipan make separate strikes
against airfields and AA defenses. HQ 21st Fighter Group departs Hawaii for
Iwo Jima.
    VI Air Service Area Command: The 311th Troop Carrier Squadron arrives at
Kahuku, Hawaii from the U.S. with C-47s (the squadron will perform aerial
transportation in the C and W Pacific, Feb-2 Sep 45).

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 28: 29 XXI Bomber Command B-29s hit
Moen Island for the second consecutive day, bombing airfield number 2.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s fly morning and afternoon raids against Corregidor Island gun
positions; A-20s also hit the island fortress; Mariveles and the S part of
Bataan Peninsula are pounded by B-24s and A-20s throughout the morning and
afternoon; B-25s and P-51s hit shipping near Legaspi and in San Miguel Bay
and destroy buildings at San Fernando on Negros Island. In support of ground
forces, A-24s and P-40s over Balete Pass area attack bridges and roads. The
17th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Thirteenth AF, based on Morotai
Island with B-25s and F-5s, sends a detachment to operate from Dulag, Leyte
Island. The 421st Night Fighter Squadron, 86th Fighter Wing, based at San
Marcelino, Luzon with P-38s and P-61s, sends a detachment to operate from
Tacloban, Leyte.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

09/0103Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: North Africa

 >9th in North Africa: I would have to search a while for the complete OB but the
 >9th was a Strategic Air Force in North Africa, at least thru August '43,
 >equipped with B24's. Operation Tidal Wave <Ploesti, August 1, 1943) was carried
 >out by 9th AF B24s operating from Libya, and the 'Lady Be Good' was a 9th AF
 >aircraft.

Not quite true.  There were three B-24 groups participating in the
1 Aug 43 raid, the 44th, 93d and 98th Bombardment Groups (Heavy).
The 44th and 93d were Eighth Air Force units based in England that
had sent detachments to N Africa in the summer of 43.  There were
five Medal of Honors awarded for this mission; Colonel Leon Johnson
was group commander of the 44th, Lieutenant Colonel Addison E Baker
was group commander of the 93d and Major John L Jerstad was also
with the 93d.  So three of the five medals went to Eighth AF
personnel.

The Ninth AF at one time or another had assigned:

 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) with B-25s
 57th Fighter Group with P-40s
 79th Fighter Group with P-40s
 98th Bombardment Group (Heavy) with B-24Ds
316th Troop Carrier Group with C-47s
324th Fighter Group with P-40s
340th Bombardment Group (Medium) with B-25s
376th Bombardment Group (Heavy) with B-24Ds

By Feb 43, most Ninth AF units had been placed under the
operational control of the Northwest African Air Force (NAAF).
NAAF reported to Mediterranean Air Command (MAC), a small
policy-making and planning HQ.  Subordinate to MAC were NAAF, RAF
Middle East (RAFME) with the Ninth Air Force assigned to it, and
RAF Malta.  As of 1 Jun 43, the Ninth AF units assigned to NAAF
were:

NAAF Tactical Air Force
  Tactical Bomber Force
    12th & 340th Bomb Gps
  Western Desert Air Force
    57th & 79th Ftr Gps
  XII Air Support COmmand
    324th Ftr Gp
NAAF Troop Carrier Command
  316th TC Gp

The two B-24 groups remained assigned administratively and
operationally to HQ Ninth AF.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:47:15 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Peso

Doug,

The bill you describe is Japanese occupation money for the Philippines.
The only reference work I know of concerning such currency is Arlie R.
Slabaugh, _Japanese Invasion Money_, 4th ed. (Chicago:  Hewitt Bros.,
1971).  I bought my copy 20 or 25 years ago through a mail order
coin catalog, probably Littleton's.

Here is Slabaugh's description of the one-peso note:

        One Peso.  Black with pale green and pink obverse.  Rizal
        Monument at left.  Denomination oval in center.  ONE at
        right.  Watermark of banana plant at right.  Reverse blue with
        light pink background.  Serial number with plate number ( )
        in red, 1 to 81.  Fine, 20c; Uncirculated 45c.  This note
        is not scarce but is increasing in price more than any
        other note as it is in demand for plate number collecting.

Earlier versions of the one-peso note did not have serial numbers.  Some
later versions, especially those printed in late 1944, lacked serial
numbers and/or plate numbers because those added cost to printing notes
that had declining value due to inflation.

As to current value, I haven't a clue.  I expect that Japanese occupation
currency from a variety of occupied lands is still available through
coin dealers.

At any rate, it's a nice item to have in a collection.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:48:25 EST
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: 320th Fighter Squadron

Peter,
>From Maurer Maurer's book on Combat Squadrons of the Air Force:
The 320FS was a Replacement Training Unit at Suffolk County AAField
from 8 Jan to 10 Apr 1944 when it was disbanded.
Sorry, looks like no overseas duty.
Interesting insignia, Diving P-47 with a boxing glove superimposed
over the cockpit/fuselage.
>From a popular line on this list, "Hope it helps!"
- Brian

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 21:18:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: RCAF Units In The RAF "Tiger Force"

This post describes the Royal Canadian Air Force's (RCAF's) involvement in
the Royal Air Force (RAF) "Tiger Force".

The Allies had agreed early on that Germany was to be defeated first and
then Japan would be attacked.  Essentially, the Americans would attack Japan
until the war in Europe was over.  By the late summer of 1944, it was
evident that Germany would be defeated and planning got underway on the
RAF and Commonwealth contribution to the attack on Japan.  On 20 Oct 44, a
very long range bomber force was proposed.  Named "Tiger Force," it was to
consist of three bomber groups; one RAF, one RCAF and the third a composite
group of RAF, Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), Royal New Zealand Air
Force (RNZAF) and South African Air Force (SAAF) squadrons.  Each group
was to consist of 22 squadrons, 12 bomber, 6 fighter, 3 transport and 1
air-sea rescue.  (NOTE: For us Yanks, the normal chain of command was
squadron-group-wing; for the RAF and Commonwealth air forces, the normal
chain of command was squadron-wing-group.)

On 21 Mar 45, "Tiger Force" was scaled down to two groups; the composite
groups was to be built around No. 5 (RAF) Group and the Canadian group
around No. 6 (RCAF) Group.  Each group was to consist of 10 bomber
squadrons.  On 5 Apr the Canadian group was further reduced to 8 bomber and
3 transport squadrons; the fighter escort force was to be provided by RAF,
RAAF and RNZAF units already in the Pacific.

Plans for "Tiger Force" were stepped up after VE Day.  The RCAF bomber
squadrons earmarked for this force transitioned to Lancaster Mk X aircraft
and returned to Nova Scotia from England for training and reorganization.
However, these units were still training when the war ended and most were
disbanded in Sep 45.

The initial plan was to have the RCAF units train with Lancaster Mk X's
build by Victory Aircraft Ltd at Malton, Ontario (now Toronto International
Airport).  However, they were to be eventually equipped with the Avro 694
Lincoln Mk XV built by Victory at Malton.  The Lincoln was a development of
the Lancaster with a new nose section, a stretched rear center section of
the fuselage, slightly enlarged rudder, a new and larger outer wing panel
and more powerful Merlin 68 engines.  The Canadian Lincolns were to have
Martin 250/CE upper gun turret as on the Canadian-build Lancaster X, but
new Bouton Paul F&D turrets in the nose and tail fitted with 50 caliber
(12.7 mm) machine guns.  The Canadian Lincolns were to incorporate all the
applicable Canadian modifications from the Lancaster X.  Only one Lincoln
Mk XV, s/n FM300, was built and flew for the first time on 25 Oct 45.  The
remainder of the order were cancelled after VJ Day.

The Canadian Lincoln XV was to have four 1,750 hp Merlin 68s giving it a
max speed of 295 mph (474.6 km/h) at 15,000 feet (4,572 m) and a cruising
speed of 238 mph (382.9 km/h) at 15,000 feet.  [NOTE: The max speed of the
USAAF's B-29 was 365 mph (587 km/h) at 25,000 feet (7,620 m).]  The maximum
range of the Lincoln was 2,930 miles (4,715 km).  A total of 528 Lincolns
were built in the UK; the first unit equipped was No. 57 Squadron at East
Kirkby in Aug 45.  (The 57th was an RAF "Tiger Force" unit.)  The Lincoln
remained in service with the RAF until Mar 63.

As of 15 Aug 45, the organization of the RCAF units of "Tiger Force" were:

Eastern Air Command, Halifax, Nova Scotia
  No 6 (RCAF) Group, Halifax, Nova Scotia
    No 661 (Heavy Bomber) Wing, Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
      No 419 (Bomber) Squadron, Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
      No 428 (Bomber) Squadron, Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
    No 662 (Heavy Bomber) Wing, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
      No 431 (Bomber) Squadron, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
      No 434 (Bomber) Squadron, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
    No 663 (Heavy Bomber) Wing, Debert, Nova Scotia
      No 420 (Bomber) Squadron, Debert, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
      No 425 (Bomber) Squadron, Debert, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
    No 664 (Heavy Bomber) Wing, Greenwood, Nova Scotia
      No 405 (Bomber) Squadron, Greenwood, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)
      No 408 (Bomber) Squadron, Greenwood, Nova Scotia (Lancaster X)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 18:28:45 -0800
From:    dew567359 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Diary

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:

> > 5/28    Thur.   Finished packing, cleaned area, marched to train.  Rode
> >                 for 1 1/2 hr to ferry.  Rode ferry to N.Y. harbor and got on
> >                 U.S.S. Hermitage formerly Conte De Savoia.  Got installed in
> >                 B Deck.
> > 5/29    Fri.    Woke up out at sea, got sick.  Went aft for Orientation.  Saw
> >                 convoy.
> > 5/30    Sat.    Sick all day.  Got paid.
> > 6/1     Sun.    Too sick to go to Mass on fantail.
> > 6/2     Mon.    Sick all day.
> > 6/3     Tue.    Sick all day.
> > 6/4     Wed.    Sick all day.  Spent some time on deck but of not much use.
> > 6/5     Thur.   Sick all day.  Spent some time on deck but of not much use.
> > 6/5     Thur.   Felt little better today.  Ate a little.  Spent a lot of
> >                 time on deck reading.  Felt good.
>
> Was sea sickness for this period of time common for soldiers sailing to
> Europe? It seems that it took about a week to get accustomed to sea
> travel, was this the norm? Just wondering, Drew
>
        The times I have sailed to and from Europe found me the heartiest
of sailors...as long as the sea was glass.  Let the wavelets be tipped
with the tiniest froth and the only conversations I held were with Ralph.
Leaving a darkened movie auditorium was bad enough, but when one must
retreat from the dining salon twixt the soup and fish course, it can be
extremely humiliating making an obvious exit amidst hundreds of diners.
The path to the egress seems to stretch away into the distance the farther
you walk.  And this was High Season!

        Troops on transports commonly suffered from the effects of mal de
mer.  Death seemed more preferable.  Have you ever read "Das Boot"?  A
hard bitten German crew, during a storm that lasted almost a month, took
to wearing necklaces.  Except, instead of a piece of jewelry hanging as
a pendant, they fastened tin cans in which to puke.  I am unconvinced
of "sea legs".  I get seasick on a swing.

Nicole

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 22:00:48 -0500
From:    "Patrick.Johnson." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: OB for Hawaii

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Michael P LaForge wrote:

> 4th Reconnaissance Sqd (Heavy) (B-17, B-18)

How can a Recon Sqd be classified as heavy vs light or medium? Is the
designation related purely to the type of aircraft flown?

Patrick
*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!!*!*!*!
[email-masked]                         Great Minds have Purpose
Annandale, Virginia                               others have Dreams.
                                                  -Washington Irving
!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 22:21:17 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Roosevelt's son and his dog

For those people who were wondering about the 50 YA article the other day
about Col. Elliot Roosevelt's promotion to Brig. Gen. being held up by the
Senate because of his "case", make sure you check out tommorrow's 50 YA
column. It will contain a more detailed write-up on what occurred. Sounds
like politics never change to me.

John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 22:17:56 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <[email-masked]>
Subject: Seasickness (Was WWII Diary)

I asked my dad about his experience.  He crossed the North Atlantic on a
Henry J. Kaiser (alum. co.) victory ship and lost 45 lbs.  (He may have
been exaggerating--I know my dad.) The seas
were rough and the ship did not have the stabilizers that they have today
(whatever they are).  At one point he was so sick he considered jumping
off the ship to end his misery!  Also, although he went over in the early
winter of 1945 (participated in Marshall Plan, e.g., helping to deliver
milk from Holland to Germany), his biggest worry going over was the
thought of taking a ship back.  To this day we can't get him on a rowboat.
He said that the sickness struck "both ends" and you could see
guys sitting on one john while, er, leaning over to puke in the adjacent one.
>From the 'for what it's worth' department.  :-)

Cheryl                                    [email-masked]

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Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:32:02 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Lord Haw-Haw

???

Wherever did someone get the idea that "Leo Amery made pro-Hitler broadcasts from Berlin in 1942"

???
!!!

LeoAmery was at the time serving as a member of Prime Minister's Wartime
Cabinet.  Be a bit of a hectic commute back and forth, one would think. :-)

--

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End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Feb 1995 to 8 Feb 1995
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