Subject: WWII-L Digest - 12 Feb 1995 to 13 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 00:02:19 -0500

There are 51 messages totalling 1686 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. The hushed up invasion of England. (2)
  2. Bombing of Gestapo HQ in Denmark
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-FEB-1945 (2)
  4. Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's
  5. The hushed up invasion of England. (2) (3)
  6. REF: Michael Wittmann book
  7. 50TH:  Dresden (3)
  8. GEN: GOING INTO NOMAIL MODE
  9. GEN Re: ? native Americans during WWII
 10. INF: USN Chronology 02-12-95
 11. INF: USN Chronology 02-13-95
 12. Michael Wittmann (3)
 13. Dresden bombing anniversary
 14. Schindler's List
 15. Enola Gay (2)
 16. INF:  Killing of POWs by U.S. (2)
 17. INF: Killing of POWs by U.S. (2)
 18. John Toland (2)
 19. New WWII PC'ism - Dresden bombing (4)
 20. New WWII PC'ism
 21. unit 731
 22. WEAP: "German" look of M24 (was Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv)
 23. Fabric surfaces
 24. Fortune Magazine
 25. Spy question
 26. WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor
 27. Enola Gay Exhibit To Be Replaced (fwd)
 28. British and American Jets over Dresden (was Re: john Toland)
 29. [INF] USAAF 14 FEB 45
 30. The Sullivans
 31. WHY ENOLA GAY? (4)
 32. GEN RE: ? NATIVE AMERI
 33. DISNEY Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:58:13 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The hushed up invasion of England.

>
> Man tortured by vague memory.
>
> I seem to recall (very vaguely) that during 1942 (?) a group of German
> special forces made an assault on England to try and gain information from
> a laboratory that was involved in Radar development. The laboratory was on
> the South Coast of England (Near Eastbourn ??). The attack was completely
> routed and the Germans cut down to a man on the beach.
>
> It was decided by the war office to hush the whole thing up, because as
> with much of the information of that period, it was considered that it
> would only cause panic. That was the only recorded attempt of a land attack
> on Britain during WWII.
>
> It remained hushed up until the 1980's when pictures were declasified
> showing the bodies on a shingle beach covered in tarpaulin.
>
> Does anyone else have a recollection of this event or is my old grey matter
> failing ?
>
> Any assistance greatfully accepted.
>
> Andrew Beaumont.
>
I would be *EXTREMELY* interested in this as well!! This is on a par
with a project I am working on here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:38:20 +0100
From:    Henrik Olsen <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bombing of Gestapo HQ in Denmark

RAF attacks on the Gestapo HQ's in Denmark

Part one:

RAF made 3 bombings of Gestapo HQ's in Denmark.

The first attack was on the HQ at the Aarhus University, 31 October 1944.

The attack took place at noon, and 24 Mosquito-bombers took part ecsorted
by 12  fighters.

The HQ was totally destroyed, most of the archives burned, and about 100 germans
and a few danes were killed.

Flight lieutenant Peter Wykeham, who took part in the attack tells:

"Because of the german radar we had to fly on the wawetops across the Northsea,
at least we kept down at 30 meters the last 100 miles before the danish coast.
The salt water sprayed our windows, and it was difficult to find one's bearings.

When I reached the target, there were already big holes in the buildings from
the bombs. I made som photo's clearly showing the extensive damage.

>From the ground, the danes wawed to us."

One of the survived SS-men wrote in a letter:

"Last Tuesday, a terrible disaster took place in Aarhus which made a great
inpression on us. Our HQ were bombed by british machines. 22 of our men died,
many are wounded and missing. Some private soldiers were killed too. The leader
of the SD, SS-Obersturmfuehrer Lonechen, one of my good friends, was killed
too. Two hours before this happended, we talked in the phone. He was in a good
mood and good shape. It is a terrible disaster which goes to our hearts."

------------

(sorry about the bad translation)

Henrik Olsen

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:24:25 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-FEB-1945

On 14-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the 3rd Canadian Division
takes a village on the Rhine opposite Emmerich. The 15th Division is being
strongly opposed as it attempts to reach Moyland. The 43rd Division holds
against strong pressure near the Cleve Forest. In the U.S. 3rd Army sector,
XII Corps has firm control of the bridgehead through the West Wall and is
consolidating it and preparing to drive to the Pruem River.

Eastern Front - The Red Army overruns Schneidemuehl in northeast Prussia.
The Soviets also gain ground northwest and southwest of Liegnitz, in German
Silesia.

Philippines - The XIV Corps continues to battle strongpoints in Manila. In
the XI Corps area, the 38th Division is concluding action against the
Zigzag. The corps also begins operations to clear Bataan. Elements of the
6th Division begins to drive south along the east coast of the peninsula
from Orani, reaching Pilar.

Pacific - The gunfire and covering force (TF 54, under RADM B.J. Rodgers)
and support carrier force (TF 52, under RADM W.H.B. Blandy) leave Saipan
for Iwo Jima for pre-D-day operatios.

The Homefront
-------------
Two Spies To Hang - A military commission at Governors Island, N.Y., has
found William Colepaugh and Erich Gimpel, who came to the U.S. in a German
submarine, guilty of espionage and sentences them to hang.

Soldier's Sentence Reduced - The Army has reduced the sentence of Pvt.
Henry Weber, who refused to drill, from life imprisonment to a five-year
sentence "in order to equalize the sentence with War Department policy."

Students Accept Supervision - The students of the College of William and
Mary have accepted a proposal for partial faculty supervision of their
publication "The Flat Hat" rather than see it killed as the result of a
pro-Negro editorial by the editor, Marily Kaemmerle, who has been ousted
from her position.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:37:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The hushed up invasion of England.

Hello, Andrew!

Would like to hear more about this. This is the first I have heard of
it, and would doubt its authenticity. Why would this have been hushed
up when German saboteurs were landed in the US at various points and
not suppressed for 50 years?

   Thanks.

   Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:56:59 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Copenhagen Gestapo HQ's

Hello, All!

Here goes with another installment on this raid.

For three and one-half long months, while Denmark continued to plead
for a raid, Basil Embry, the commander of the Second Tactical Air
Force, refused to authorize the necessary orders until someone in a
"responsible" position "in the field" determined that the need was
indeed as great as the Danish resistance said it was. There was a
catch to Embry's apparently reasonable stipulation, however, for at
the time he was demadning that a responsible field determination be
made, tehre was no "responsible" Allied official in Denmark to make
this determination. Flemming Muus, the fast-talking SOE leader had
just been recalled to London to answer allegations of misuse of
resistance funds. Before a determination could be made, therefore, a
replacement for Muus had to be found. That replacement had to be
briefed and then successfully dropped into Denmark, and once in
Denmark, he would have to gain his bearings in order to make a
reasoned evaluation of the situation. All of this would take time,
which suited Embry's purposes beautifully.

The task of finding a replacement for Muus fell to Svend Truelsen, as
always sympathetic to the plight of the Danish resistance. He acted
quickly, choosing as Muus' replacement Ole Lippmann, who like
Truelsen had been forced to flee Denmark in the summer of 1944 to
escape arrest by the Germans. After his arrival in Britain, Lippmann
had gone through parachute training, so he was ready to move as soon
as he got the assignment. He dropped into Denmark in Feb 1945 with
orders to take over Muus' activities as chief SOE representative in
the country and to answer, with a clear-cut yes or no, whether an air
raid should be mounted against Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen's
Shellhus. Once he reached Copenhagen, Lippmann renewed his contacts
with resistance members. As the new SOE chief in Denmark, he
automatically became a member of the Freedom Council's Command
Committee. He also attended full sessions of the Freedom Council as
an observer. In all his meetings with resistance leaders, Lippmann
sought to determine if there was a need to destroy Shellhus and if
that need was great enough to justify the expected losses. The need
for secrecy complicated Lippmann's task, for seeking the considered
opinions of others, Lippmann himself could not openly discuss the
planned raid.

Within days of his arrival in Copenhagen, a series of of particularly
effective German raids provided the answer that Lippmann sought. In
these coordinated forays, Gestapo personnel in Copenhagen captured
the most important contact man for many resistance groups, the leader
of the underground army in the Copenhagen area, and a resistance
worker who played a key liaison role between the military resistance
and the underground press. The arrest of the three men, who between
them knew most of the leading figures still active in the resistance,
threatened the complete destruction of the underground organization.
Lippmann concluded that the planned operation against Shellhus, which
had been code-named Carthage, should be implemented at the earliest
possible moment. He informed London in a report dated 4 Mar: "It is
definitely felt that Carthage would provide a pause, and a pause is
needed."

More tomorrow. Hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 05:59:55 -0800
From:    Uniface Consultant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The hushed up invasion of England. (2)

    Most of the problem lies in the fact that my recolection is based upon
  an English newspaper article I read some years ago. Although I recall the
  article, I cannot vouch for its validity, since it could all too easily be
  some garbage generated by the British popular press of the period
  (1980's not 1940's). The aleged 'Hitler Diaries' still causes the bile
  to rise at the outrages of the British press.

    I have pursued the issue in all my own available reference information
  here in the Los Angeles area (made worse by the fact that I have to work
  during the day - Sigh!) with absolutely no success whatever.

    I am flying to London next weekend on business and had intended a
  swift browse through the archives at the British Museum. Unfortunately,
  I cannot even remember which newspaper it was, otherwise their morgue
  might yeild the details.

    What I am looking for is either a definite "NO IT NEVER HAPPENED" or
  alternately, any details known. A date would be ideal.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew.

P.S.    Gudmundur, any information I gather (even a definitive no), via
        other channels, I will gladly pass on.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:15:14 +0900
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF: Michael Wittmann book

Long awaited book by Mr Patrick Agte, _Michael Wittmann und die Tiger
der Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler_ finally arrived.  Published by
Deutsche Verlagsgesellschaft Rosenheim, ISBN 3-920722-18-3, this 352-page
volume is filled with new photographs, TOEs, maps, reports by the survivors.
One of my friend said "... books published so far became unnecessary",
another expert: "I'm reluctant to read on [because of the so many untold
stuff]".  A must book for all Panzer buffs.

Akira Takiguchi  ATSON Inc./ASAHI Net

I can be reached by <[email-masked]> or <[email-masked]>.
If both fail, please try <[email-masked]> --- Tim

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:27:55 -0500
From:    Ira Krakow <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The hushed up invasion of England. (2)

>     I am flying to London next weekend on business and had intended a
>   swift browse through the archives at the British Museum. Unfortunately,
>   I cannot even remember which newspaper it was, otherwise their morgue
>   might yield the details.
>

   Is the Official Secrets Act in effect for that period?  The UK
has much more stringent secrecy laws than the US.  This incident may
still be embarrassing for some living politicians.  I don't believe
the UK has Freedom of Information Act-type disclosure procedures.

Ira Krakow

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:52:17 EST
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH:  Dresden

Greetings.

In light of the recent press and my knowledge of the Dresden bombing, I
have a few questions.  I may have missed the most recent musings on this
matter.

1.  I have been hearing reports that emphasize the lower number of
casualties; 30,000 as opposed to 130,000.

2. The other day I heard that Ike intended to bomb the military targets
specifically in the Dresden region, and that it was Churchill that
ordered the incineration of the city, partly because of the
indiscriminate bombing of the Germans on English cities.

3.  When was Churchill's [paraphrased] "They have sewn the wind, now
they will reap the whirlwind" speech?

Now that I think about it, I can see how one can stretch the A-bombings
of Japan as vengeance, when put in the perspective of Dresden.   Is
there a general concensus that the firestorming of Dresden was
unnecessary, or not?

Thanks.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:17:46 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: GOING INTO NOMAIL MODE

  February 13, 1995
  Due to the pressure of other activities, I am going into a NOMAIL
mode again for awhile.  Anyone wanting to contact me can do so through
EMAIL.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:00:40 -0800
From:    Uniface Consultant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The hushed up invasion of England. (2)

    As far as I am aware there are many procedures under which documents
  are declasified in Britain. However it seems that most of these are more
  like beauracratic procedures rather than actual legal mechanisms.

    My hope (if any) lies in something known, rather quaintly as the
  '30 year rule'. Under thus rule, documents such as cabinet papers are
  routinely declassified at the start of the year. For example the background
  documents to the 'Profumo affair' were recently issued on this basis, even
  though Profumo et al are still alive.

    However, there are other regimes covering more classified documents,
  which wont be released for another 25 years. Sigh. As a British citizen
  myself, I often despair at the retentive attitudes of my fellow
  countrymen.

Andrew.

>>    Is the Official Secrets Act in effect for that period?  The UK
>> has much more stringent secrecy laws than the US.  This incident may
>> still be embarrassing for some living politicians.  I don't believe
>> the UK has Freedom of Information Act-type disclosure procedures.
>>
>> Ira Krakow
>>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:03:45 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN Re: ? native Americans during WWII

Ben Frank writes to the list:
>Let me correct you, Sidney re/Navajo code talkers in the Marine Corps. While
>the first 30 recruited went through boot camp together, and the existence of a
>Navajo code talker program a highly classified matter, after their initial
>training, they were portioned out to the divisions in the Pacific and assigned
>to the division signal companies, which would then send teams down to
>regimental and battalion level. In other words, they were not kept in special
>units. Ben Frank

        Correct away, Frank. It doesn't hurt that much! Your account
is correct according to my sources. Although there was some resistance
to putting the Dineh talkers in certain units, they were spread out. My
intention was only to speak of the organized effort to produce and
train the talkers. They clearly had to be spread out to be effective.
As far as I know, the Army had no program like the Marines. The use of
Cherokee by the Thunderbirds was ad hoc and spontaneous. It stemmed
more from the availability of Indians in the division. It didn't need
a training program and distribution of personnel, because they were
already all over the division. Also there were quite a few languages
that could have been chosen: Choctaw, Creek, Seminole, Chickasaw,
Osage, etc. All these languages and more were represented in the
Thunderbirds. My guess is that Cherokee was chosen because there were
more native speakers available.

        Back to the question I THOUGHT Terry was raising: general
service by Indians in WWII. The Winter 1995 issue of _Native Peoples_
on p. 42 has an article entitled: "WWII Warriors". The article is
about a D-Day 50th Anniversary gettogether held in Phoenix last year.
It profiles several individual soldiers: Otto Stewart, who landed on
Utah Beach with the 60th Regiment of the 9th Inf. Div., Robert Nez,
who parachuted into Sainte-Mere-Eglise with 82nd Airborne, Carl Tsosie
who landed on Omaha Beach with the 359th, William Tsosie who served
in the 24th Engineers, and Walter Amiotte who drove a tank in the 41st
Armored Div. Each man is interviewed and tells some of his D-Day
experiences.
        On the overall question, the article claims over 3600 Navajos
fought in WWII and that across all Indian groups the total was about
25000 service members.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Feb 1995 04:00:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-12-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/12 Mon.  Japanese submarine sunk:
             RO-113, by submarine BATFISH (SS-310), Philippine
              Islands area,
              19 d. 10'N., 121 d. 23'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 04:00:13 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 02-13-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
02/13 Tue. Motor torpedo boats enter Manila Bay, Luzon, P. I., for
           night reconnaissance; these are the first United States
           naval units to enter Manila Bay since May 1942.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:32:40 GMT+6
From:    Esaul Zermeno Bautista <[email-masked]>
Subject: Michael Wittmann

    Hi everyone,

           I hope that somebody could help me  giving me
information about the life of Michael Wittmann.

  1) In which battles he fought
  2) What were his score vs. others tanks
  3) What happen with him after the war or How he die

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:36:39 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Dresden bombing anniversary

Dresden, Germany (AP) -

Ten young "leftists" disrupted a prayer service yesterday marking the 50th
anniversary of Dresden's destruction by Allied bombers. They rushed the alter
shouting "Germans were the criminals, not the victims", scattering leaflets
which said that commemerating the firebombing insults the Jews killed at
Auschwitz, and they attempted to hoist a banner which read similar.
Church and government observances portrayed Dresdeners not as victims of
the the war and the Allies, but of a war begun by their own country.

An estimated 35,000 Germans died in the bombings from 2 formations of
British Lancasters which leveled the city on Feb 13-14th, 1945. Many
Germans see the firebombing as a war crime perpertrated by Sir Arthur Harris,
wartime head of Britian's Bomber Command. Many Briton's defend Harris
and counter that Hitler's Luftwaffe laid waste to Coventry and numerous
other British cities.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:14:23 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Schindler's List

On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, John Davis wrote:

> I finally saw Shindler's List. My question is - even though the movie was
> made in black and white, in the first part as the Jews were being rounded up
> in the ghetto there was a scene where a girl has a red coat on (not black and
> white but actually red in color). Was this a mistake in making the movie, our
> copy, my VCR or was this done intentionally? If so what was the significance.
> Also towards the end my wife said she noticed a red wheel barrow in a scene.
> I did not notice it.
>
> Finally, I must plead total ignorance on this, was this store true? The
> titles said it came from a novel.

The screenplay comes from, and is fairly faithful to, a novelized
biography of Shindler, called "Shindler's Ark".  The preface does mention
why it it is called a novel and I think it is because the author does not
want to be held liable for the exact words he puts in the mouths of his
characters.

Incidently, parts of the movie where shot in the actual locations where
the events took place- Shindler's apartment, the enamal works, the hill
overlooking Krakow, etc.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:40:50 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay

        Steve, sorry I mistakenly attributed that "sowing the wind" quote to
you.  I agree with the bulk of your argument on the Enola Gay.  Just wanted to
say, though, that my lengthy post on Japanese atrocities was intended not as a
way of saying, "see, they deserved the a-bomb," but rather to point out that a
proposed SI exhibit showing only the admitted horror of the atomic devastation
of Hiroshima was giving an unjustifiably one-sided version of the nature of the
war in the Pacific.  It was my reaction to the supposed documentary line in the
original exhibit (which I haven't seen either, so I'm taking the words of
others on the list) about how the war to most Japanese was seen as protecting
their unique culture against western imperialism.  This seemed to me to be too
close to the subject as its apparently being taught in Japan-- highlight the
horror visited on Japan during the final stages of a war they started, downplay
the horrors visited by the Japanese on the various other peoples who got to
experience that "unique culture" in a somewhat different form.  My other point
was that both sides essentially prosecuted a war without mercy, let's not get
so involved in beating our own breasts that we forget that the enemy in this
conflict did things just as bad or worse.
        PS, I particularly agree with your statement that it was Truman's job
to prosecute the war in the most effective manner, and dropping the bomb was
doing just that.  It might also be possible to argue very convincingly that by
doing so, he did Japan a big favor in the long run.  More Japanese would have
died in almost any other feasible scenario (however, I agree with you that
that's beside the point and almost irrelevant to the discussion).  I too am
exasperated that a factual compromise on the exhibit could not be worked out.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:18:46 -0500
From:    Matthew Savoie <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF:  Killing of POWs by U.S.

This past Saturday night on our local PBS affiliate, they showed a program
entitled "Unsolved mysteries of WWII."  This episode of the series focused
on the D-Day invasion and the first several weeks of expanding the
beach heads in Normandy.  The show went on to assert that during the
fighting in the hedgerow country German snipers would shot 1, 2, or 3 people
and then surrender before they could be taken out.  This frustrated Allied
troops, obviously.  Because of this, they claim that Omar Bradley issued an
order to his division commanders that German snipers should not be brought
in as prisoners (ie. shot on the spot).  Does anyone know more about this
order?  Was it issued by Bradley?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew M. Savoie           |  "There is only one tactical principal that   |
Western New England College |    that remains unchanged.  It is to inflict  |
1215 Wilbraham Road         |    the maximum amount of death, wounds, and   |
Box 1830                    |    destruction in the minimum amount of time."|
Springfield, MA 01119       |              - General George S. Patton, Jr.  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:40:29 -0600
From:    "C.K. Bryant" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Killing of POWs by U.S.

On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Matthew Savoie wrote:

[...]

> Because of this, they claim that Omar Bradley issued an order to his
> division commanders that German snipers should not be brought in as
> prisoners (ie. shot on the spot).  Does anyone know more about this
> order?  Was it issued by Bradley?

I don't know who issued the order, but my grandfather has spoken of the
"take no prisoners" policy that went along with the Normandy invasion.
It always bothered him and he said that he was glad he was never faced with
shooting someone who was surrendering.

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:03:44 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: John Toland

        I would have to echo Jim Curry on his assessment of Toland.  I've read
at least three of his books and it seems to me that his writing is based far
more on personal memoirs and interviews of survivors than on archival material,
etc.  This makes for some good reading, but at times the subjective nature of
reminiscenses can work to the detriment of pure historical accuracy.  The fact
that "Rising Sun" was undertaken largely to present the Japanese view of WW2 to
the English-speaking reader gives it, IMHO, a bit more validity than, say, his
book about Pearl Harbor.  BTW, his analysis of Japanese motives for going to
war squares with most of what I've read in more scholarly treatments of the
subject, at least as presented in "Rising Sun."  It is however more "popular
history" oriented than historical works such as Skates on the invasion, for
example.  My $.02.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 11:06:49 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: New WWII PC'ism - Dresden bombing

It appears that there's a new topic of PC'ism on WWII - the bombing of
Dresden. CNN is outright saying that it shouldn't have been bombed. One
quote "Residents were bewildered by the destruction of the city." I guess
the residents of London weren't bewildered by The Blitz. I guess the Jews
of the world weren't bewildered by the Holocaust. I guess the world wasn't
bewildered by the brutal spread of Nazism.

As that part of our history moves farther and farther away it appears that
the lessons are also. When all the eyewitnesses are gone, there won't be
anybody to tell the apologists and revisionists "No - you're spewing B*T".
Man, am I glad kids are required to attend school. Otherwise it would be
worse.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:37:17 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: New WWII PC'ism

At 11:06 AM 2/13/95 -0800, Julian E Gomez wrote:
>It appears that there's a new topic of PC'ism on WWII - the bombing of
>Dresden.
>
>As that part of our history moves farther and farther away it appears that
>the lessons are also. When all the eyewitnesses are gone, there won't be
>anybody to tell the apologists and revisionists "No - you're spewing B*T".

Actually, I have found another type of PC.  If you look carefully, most
"popular" reference to things that happened in Germany from 1938 - 1945
were done by the Nazis. They talk of the evil of Hitler and the Nazis, but
if you look closely, it seems as if they are talking about a group that is
entirely seperate from the Germans of the time.

Now I am not going to say that the German people on the whole are evil or
bad people, but there was an overwhelming majority of people in Germany who
supported Hitler.  It was not a Nazi army.  It was a German army. The Nazis
were not a force that came in and invaded Germany, took over for a while
and then left when they were beaten at the end of World War II.

I find the lack of the term "German" just another way that PC is making
in-roads.

Nechama Cox
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:39:20 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: John Toland

I bought Toland's biography of Hitler as soon as it was released in
paperback, while leafing through it on the way home I came across
the section dealing with Hess' flight to England.  He describes Hess
flying in his Bf110, just above the wavetops, at 450mph!  Must of been
one of those special, souped up models :)

P.S.
Did anyone catch the NPR story on Dresden this morning.  I know there
were several but one in particular described the waves of British and
American JETS destroying the city.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:30:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Michael Wittmann

Hello, Esaul!

I have his military career and can answer all your questions.
More tomorrow.

All the best. I had also corresponded with his wife, who lives in
Hagen, Germany.

 > information about the life of Michael Wittmann.
>
>   1) In which battles he fought
>   2) What were his score vs. others tanks
>   3) What happen with him after the war or How he die

    Question No. 3. His tank was destroyed along with all occupants
in the battles in Normandy. Will provide precise info. His tank and
his remains weren't discovered until 1983. It is believed that his
tank was destroyed from the air by a rocket-firing Typhoon.

    Question No. 2. The number 138 tanks comes to mind and scores of
other armored vehicles. Will provide the exact number.

    Question No. 1. He was posted primarily to the Eastern Front up
until the Normandy invasion.

    More tomorrow.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:42:23 +0100
From:    "I.S. Berzenczei" <[email-masked]>
Subject: unit 731

Hello People

this weekend while reading a dutchnewspaper i came across:

from ap tokyo- six members of japanese unit write book on their
               experiments in wwii (the truth about unit 731).
               kamikaze pilots were drugged! the sake was spiced
               in order to arouse the pilots and make them loose
               their fear ()

someone on the list mentioned Saburo Sakai's struggle in the cockpit..

greetings
IstV=A0n

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:49:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH:  Dresden

Hello, Emery!

Can answer your questions.

> 1.  I have been hearing reports that emphasize the lower number of
> casualties; 30,000 as opposed to 130,000.

    David Irving has been forced to recant that larger figure in the
light of original research provided done on this topic in Germany. I
think the figure is now more like 35,000.

 >
> 2. The other day I heard that Ike intended to bomb the military targets
> specifically in the Dresden region, and that it was Churchill that
> ordered the incineration of the city, partly because of the
> indiscriminate bombing of the Germans on English cities.

    Not really. Churchill didn't order the destruction of the city,
but both American and British wanted the city bombed because:

    1. it had become a major refugee center.

    2. as a major metropolitan area, it had escaped the full weight
       of Allied bombing.

    3. from the Western Allied perspective, to bomb such a target,
       hitherto unmolested, close enough to the Russian Front, it
       would be viewed by the Russians as an attempt by the West to
       assist their ground operations, as it would disrupt
       communications in that area and create panic that could hamper
       German ground operations against the Russians.

    4. The Americans, as well, had already accepted the policy of
       bombing strategic population centers, and needed no order from
       the British to carry out this policy.

> 3.  When was Churchill's [paraphrased] "They have sewn the wind, now
> they will reap the whirlwind" speech?

    This quote was made after the terrible fire-bombing of Hamburg in
August, 1943; Operation Soddom and Gomorrah.

> Now that I think about it, I can see how one can stretch the A-bombings
> of Japan as vengeance, when put in the perspective of Dresden.   Is
> there a general concensus that the firestorming of Dresden was
> unnecessary, or not?

    Personally, I think it was unnecessary to bomb it. General Lyman
Lemnitzer who was partially responsible for its bombing sounded
defensive about it when questioned after the war. He simply compared
it to what the Germans had done to London, Coventry, etc. during the
years of the Blitz, which to my mind doesn't excuse him. Other than
the fact that the city was bulging with refugees fleeing the
Russians, there was no other military target in the area.

 > Thanks.

    Hope this has been of help.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:44:07 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: "German" look of M24 (was Re: 3rd Army Chron. M59-->M24 conv)

Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]> writes:
>>        Squadron's "M24 in Action" indicates that the M24 had to
>>"make the rounds" to all the ETO troops so that they could familiarize
>>themselves with its appearance.  Until then, German and Allied armor
>>could be easily differentiated by looking at the roadwheel layout and
>>suspension system of the vehicle.  The M24 had roadwheels characteristic
>>of a Pzkw III so it was thought that troops might shoot at an M24.
>
> PzKpfw - II has the large road wheels , not the IIIs.

        Just to clarify, the Chaffee does indeed have similar roadwheels
and suspension to the Pzkw II, but only certain models, such as the chassis
of the Wespe or Marder I, and Ausfs A, B, C, and F.  However, other Pzkw II
variations had no return rollers (Ausf D and E and Marder II) or else
interleaved roadwheels (Lynx).  Though the Pzkw III did indeed have more
and smaller roadwheels than the Chaffee (six rather than five), every
variation of the chassis had the independent return rollers which was
new for a US tank.  Before then, US armor had return rollers attached
to the suspension of the roadwheels giving them a distinctly "American"
look.  Also, the 75mm gun and shape of the turret might be confused more
with a Pzkw III (such as the late production models Ausf L or M with their
50mm main gun) than the shorter barrel, smaller caliber gun of the Pzkw II.
Finally, production of all variations of the Pzkw II had been phased out by
1943 (well before US troops were in France) and surviving vehicles had been
relegated to garrison or recon duties or else converted to self-propelled
artillery which had a tall, boxlike silhouette and no turret.  Production
of the Pzkw III was similarly phased out by 1943, but production of the
StuG variation (turretless assault gun) continued into well into 1945
(providing a source of spare parts) so I would imagine that US troops
would have been more likely to encounter surviving Pzkw III Ausf Ls
and Ms than Pzkw IIs.

Sources:
Uwe Feist, "Deutsche Panzer: 1917-1945", 1978, Aero Publishers
Jim Mesko, "M24 Chaffee in Action", 1988, Squadron/Signal Publications
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Look, when we was in the bocage country, we was assaulted by them Tigers!
You know what I mean by assaulted, hunh?!  Well, I mean assaulted!!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:14:32 -0500
From:    Michael Andrew Turton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay

        Mike Yaklich's comment about the "unique culture" seeming to
close to the way the subject is taught in Japan appeared to confirm
a perception I had of the Smithsonian's original piece as it appeared
in the NYTimes the other day.  The "unique culture" claim is a standard
of Japanese gov't propaganda which has been adopted by Western academics
in recent years -- for a good discussion of the whole "unique culture"
nonsense see _The Enigma of Japanese Power_ by Van Wolfern (which
also discusses briefly the bureaucratic and political obstacles to
surrender) -- and seeing that catch-phrase in an official U.S. document
was deeply troubling to me.  My question is: from whence did funding for
that exhibit come?  Was it all in-house taxpayer funding, or did some
come from one of those ubiquitous "Japan-American Friendship Foundation"
type organizations?  The presence of Japanese money behind the display
could go a long way toward explaining the particular slant of the
presentation.....

Mike Turton
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:21:54 -0500
From:    Tim McFeely <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: New WWII PC'ism - Dresden bombing

>It appears that there's a new topic of PC'ism on WWII - the bombing of
>Dresden. CNN is outright saying that it shouldn't have been bombed. One
>quote "Residents were bewildered by the destruction of the city." I guess
>the residents of London weren't bewildered by The Blitz. I guess the Jews
>of the world weren't bewildered by the Holocaust. I guess the world wasn't
>bewildered by the brutal spread of Nazism.

>As that part of our history moves farther and farther away it appears that
>the lessons are also. When all the eyewitnesses are gone, there won't be
>anybody to tell the apologists and revisionists "No - you're spewing B*T".
>Man, am I glad kids are required to attend school. Otherwise it would be
>worse.

>"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

>        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
>        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
>        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

Part of the problem is our lack of understanding of both technological
advances and the necessity of conducting warfare on the scale of WWII. The
post WWII generations do not remember life before TV, video games,
microwaves, or computers. Nor do they remember the massive scale of WWII. The
living room war in Vietnam was the first lesson in Military history that may
have seeped in because of the exposure provided by the media. Herein lies
another problem. Desert Shield/Storm was glorified by its media coverage.
Smart this and smart that, limited civilian casualties, overwhelming
coalition firepower, all lead many of the unversed or uncaring to feel that
war is a frivolous manner. DS was conducted for many of the same reasons WWII
was conducted, most specifically to halt the expansionism of a nation(s) into
non-soveriegn territory. It was not frivolous, but it did not produce enough
national pain to make the noncaring minions understand war and its suffering.
I have no intention of belittling or ignoring the families that lost loved
ones in the Gulf. Heroes all.

Again we sit back and watch the media, high and mighty its supposed
objectivity. Instead of the democratic approach to journalism, where every
side gets its fair chance to speak its story; the media hypes the parts that
make story sell. Inflated casualty figures (you have noticed the higher
figures are spouted by the network news), outright insistence (as in Dr.
Gomez's post) that Dresden was a mistake and we should not have bombed it, or
any other controversial statement (particularly if it makes the Allies look
bad). Revisionism, PCism, and a host of other 'isms' are the scourge of so
called news programs.

Truth... what truth? Doesn't sell my friends. Maybe some day I can tell you
about situation that causes my hatred for network news. Aside from all the
obvious. Wrong time in Military History for this list however. And boy at
this rate, I just can't wait until August rolls around. Should be a
proverbial media field day with Hiroshima etc, etc.

Tim McFeely
Ocean State FreeNet
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:31:42 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF:  Killing of POWs by U.S.

Hello, Matthew!

I doubt the veracity of this. Omar Bradley, in all that I have read
of him, never mentioned this in his memoirs, written by Chet Hansen or
his last book, basically written by his wife.

Hope this helps.

Terry

  Because of this, they claim that Omar
Bradley issued an
> order to his division commanders that German snipers should not be brought
> in as prisoners (ie. shot on the spot).  Does anyone know more about this
> order?  Was it issued by Bradley?
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew M. Savoie           |  "There is only one tactical principal that   |
> Western New England College |    that remains unchanged.  It is to inflict  |
> 1215 Wilbraham Road         |    the maximum amount of death, wounds, and   |
> Box 1830                    |    destruction in the minimum amount of time."|
> Springfield, MA 01119       |              - General George S. Patton, Jr.  |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:36:04 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: New WWII PC'ism - Dresden bombing

Mr Gomez wrote:

>It appears that there's a new topic of PC'ism on WWII - the bombing of
>Dresden. CNN is outright saying that it shouldn't have been bombed. One
>quote "Residents were bewildered by the destruction of the city." I guess
>the residents of London weren't bewildered by The Blitz. I guess the Jews
>of the world weren't bewildered by the Holocaust. I guess the world wasn't
>bewildered by the brutal spread of Nazism.

>As that part of our history moves farther and farther away it appears that
>the lessons are also. When all the eyewitnesses are gone, there won't be
>anybody to tell the apologists and revisionists "No - you're spewing B*T".
>Man, am I glad kids are required to attend school. Otherwise it would be
>worse.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Please, good sir: Do not be misled into great error by the siren song of
alleged PC. Consider that it is quite possible to doubt the neccessity
of Dresden without being "politically correct" (of either the right or
the left).

Keep smiling!

-- Warren Thompson

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:44:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fabric surfaces

Hello, Jack!

Not really, but it makes sense. Also, such fabric surfaces would make
the aircraft lighter, requiring less fuel-consumption, but at the
same time, drag would seem to be a problem. Probably not as easy to
maintain as metal.

Just a thought.

All the best, Jack.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:49:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine

Hello, Jack!

> I have an unconfirmed report that Fortune magazine published a survey in
> late 1945 or early 1946 indicating that 22% of Americans thought the war
> in the Pacific had ended too soon, i.e., before we could really blast the
> Japanese.  This is kinda hard to believe.  Does anyone have any knowledge
> of said survey.  (I'm starting to sound like one of OJs lawyers!)  If such
> a survey was conducted, does anyone have any details on the questions,
> who was surveyed, etc.

    Makes one wonder what time would have been more acceptable. The
Japanese had nothing left, as you well know, and were faced with
imminent and prompt destruction on top of all their other problems.

    Interesting.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:49:06 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Spy question

        I get the feeling I've been away from certain subject areas too long
and may have missed important developments.  Can anyone on the list answer the
following??
        There was a Soviet spy ring known as "Werther," controlled from
Switzerland by German expatriot Communist Rudolf Rossler, code name "Lucy," who
in turn was part of the Swiss organization of Alexander Rado.  The ring was
said to have consisted of ten highly-placed German staff officers, eight from
the Army and two from the Luftwaffe.  Has the identity of these ten German
officers ever been clearly established, and if so, who were they??  Also, I
read in a post here some time back a reference to Walter Warlimont, and he was
described as the "Allied spy."  Is this true??  If anyone out there can shed
some light and/or suggest readings specifically geared to these questions I'd
be very appreciative.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

                "The elimination of the horse as a class."

                        Marshal Budenny (who among other tasks was
                        responsible for horse procurement in the Soviet
                        cavalry), summarizing the great collectivization
                        movement, with its slogan "elimination of the kulak
                        (wealthy peasant) as a class."  Peasants in the
                        Ukraine and elsewhere slaughtered their livestock
                        by the thousands rather than turn them over to the
                        collective farms.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:50:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHAT-IF: Pearl Harbor

Hello, Jack!

> Agreed, the Japanese won a tactical victory at Pearl Harbor.  But
> their surprise attack got the American people angry and for the
> first time since World War I, we were unified and isolationism was
> OUT!

    Amen to that!!

    That was the worst possible mistake for them to have committed,
and something they did not want.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:07:56 -0600
From:    BALAM V JORGE R <[email-masked]>
Subject: Enola Gay Exhibit To Be Replaced (fwd)

HEY! WW-II NETWORKERS, WHAT DOU YOU THINK OF THIS?

>
> =========================================================================
> FINS SPECIAL REPORT                                      January 30, 1995
> =========================================================================
>
> ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT TO BE REPLACED
> Replacement Will Honor Veteran's Valor and Sacrifice
>
> Washington, DC--Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, I. Michael
> Heyman, announced today at a press conference that the Board of Regents of
> the institution decided to support his proposal to replace "The Last Act:
> The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II (the Enola Gay exhibition).
> The exhibition will be replaced by a new exhibit Heyman said.  "In this
> important anniversary year, veterans and their families were expecting,
> and rightly so, that the nation would honor and commemorate their valor
> and sacrifice."  In making this dramatic change in the exhibit after
> conservative pressure was placed on the Smithsonian, Heyman explained that
> the exhibit would be "a much simpler one, essentially a display,
> permitting the Enola Gay and its crew to speak for themselves."  Cut out
> of the exhibition would be any attempt to provide a context and analysis
> of the moral and political circumstances and conditions surrounding the
> decision to drop an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan by President Truman in
> 1945.
>
>   Hyman said the one overriding reason for the decision to replace the
> original exhibit was his conclusion that "we made a basic error in
> attempting to couple an historic treatment of the use of atomic weapons
> with the 50th anniversary commemoration of the end of the war."  He also
> rejected including any of the artifacts to be contributed by the Japanese
> people with regard to this exhibition.  In response to a question by FINS
> as to whether by cutting all contextual explanation out of the exhibition
> the event was essentially made meaningless, Heyman indicated that there
> would be "ample meaning in the simple display of the Enola Gay
> commemorating the end of the war," without any moral or political analysis.
>
>   Heyman tried to underscore the difficulty of attempting to tell such a
> complex story in an exhibition, and that this attempt in the original plan
> was "a fundamental error."  He also confirmed that the breakdown in
> negotiations over the original design of the exhibit occurred when
> veterans groups were outraged over the discovery that the original
> estimate of casualties that would have resulted from an invasion--had the
> atom bomb not been used--was not consistent with the source document on
> which the estimate was based.  The Smithsonian's decision to conform their
> script of the event to the actual source document estimate caused
> negotiations with the veterans to breakdown, Heyman explained.
>
>   Heyman indicated that although he was an administrator without any
> experience in designing exhibitions he would be taking over personal
> control of the new event.  He said "I will work with whomever I believe
> necessary to produce it."
>
>   Heyman also announced that "the issue of atomic weapons is one which
> the institution in its role as a public forum on important issues, can
> address well in the future, but not necessarily in an exhibition."  He
> said he was therefore considering "a series of symposia to be held at a
> later date."
>
>   Finally, Heyman announced that no decision would be made in the heat of
> the moment with regard to the demand made by a number of members of
> Congress that Air and Space Museum Director Martin Harwit be "immediately
> terminated or resign."  He also stressed that the change in the exhibit
> was not any reflection on the work of the people who were in charge of the
> original plan.
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:07:09 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Michael Wittmann

>
>     Question No. 3. His tank was destroyed along with all occupants
> in the battles in Normandy. Will provide precise info. His tank and
> his remains weren't discovered until 1983. It is believed that his
> tank was destroyed from the air by a rocket-firing Typhoon.
>
This is interesting. Where was his tank hidden so that it was lost for 39
years? Is this common on battlefields? I would think that battlefields
such as Normandy would have had a through going over by historians,
victors and souviner hunters.-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:11:11 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: British and American Jets over Dresden (was Re: john Toland)

Undoubtedly the Julia Child Squadron.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:04:11 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Killing of POWs by U.S.

The following might be of interest:

"Though all is supposedly "fair in love and war" our troops are hot about
German foul play, like cutting up our disabled wounded soldiers instead of
taking them prisoner.  In retaliation many "Huns" are treated in kind.  In
one instance, a paratrooper offered to relieve an MP of thirty prisoners.
He marched them to a field hidden from observers, lined them up, opened
fire with his tommygun and annihilated them to a man.  But even before
there was a feeling of retaliation for German atrocities, OUR TROOPS LANDED
IN FRANCE WITH THE INTENTION TO TAKE NO PRISONERS FOR AT LEAST THE FIRST
FEW DAYS.  THE BRIEFING PRECEDING D-DAY NORMANDY MADE CLEAR THAT WE WOULD
BE AT A DISADVANTAGE TO ENCUMBER OURSELVES WITH PRISONERS WHILE TRYING TO
SECURE A BEACHHEAD.   About the second day, however, an order was issued
rescinding this understanding. (caps are mine)

>From the World War II Army Journal by David Rothbart (1977, NP)

I don't think you would find the briefing subject in any of the higher
headquarters files, but if you go down to the lower organizations it might
just be squirreled away.
Hope this helps
Rob Rush
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 20:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 14 FEB 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 14 FEBRUARY 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow
  P-70, Douglas

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s bomb and photograph Suribachi Airfield
on Paramushiru Island, Kurile Islands (the secondary target).

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, P-47s bomb Kaifeng Airfield
and P-51s hit Shihkiachwang Airfield, destroying several parked aircraft; the
P-51s afterwards blast 7 locomotives between Puchou and Sinsiang; other
fighters destroy 7 more locomotives between Sinyang and Hsuchang, bomb
the railroad yards at Lohochai, and destroy a fuel dump at Hsiangcheng.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s attack vehicles
along roads from Lashio to Takaw to Hopong; 7 P-47s strafe Laihka Airfield;
bad weather cancels other scheduled offensive missions. Transports continue
to operate despite the weather, completing 520 sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 830: 1,377 bombers and 962 fighters are dispatched to hit oil and
rail targets in Germany; bombing of most targets is by H2X radar; they claim
11-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 bombers and 7 fighters are lost:
  1. 461 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Dresden (311);
targets of opportunity are Prague (62), Brux (25) and Pilsen (12) in
Czechoslovakia and other (25); they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3
damaged beyond repair and 54 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 15 WIA and 49 MIA.
Escorting are 281 of 316 P-51s; 3 are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond
repair.
  2. 457 B-17s are sent to hit the marshalling yard at Chemnitz (294);
targets of opportunity are Eger Airfield (38), Bamberg (33), Sonneberg (23),
Tachau (24), Hof marshalling yard (12) and other (17); 1 B-17 is lost, 3
damaged beyond repair and 103 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 14 MIA.
The escort is 224 of 238 P-51s; 2 are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond
repair.
  3. 375 B-24s are sent to hit an oil refinery at Magdeburg but are unable to
attack due to weather; 340 hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at
Magdeburg; targets of opportunity are Emlicheim (1), Meppen (1), Bodenteich
(1) and other (1); 1 B-24 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 16 damaged; 9
airmen are MIA. 253 of 273 P-51s escort; they claim 10-0-3 aircraft; 2 P-51s
are lost (pilots MIA).
  4. 84 B-17s are sent to hit the Wesel road bridge (37); 35 hit the
secondary, the Dulmen oil depot and 1 hits Ahaus, a target of opportunity; 15
B-17s are damaged. 26 of 30 P-51s escort the bombers.
  5. 44 of 49 P-47s fly a sweep of the Magdeburg area without loss.
  6. 24 P-51s escort photo reconnaissance aircraft over Germany.
  7. 29 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 831: 10 B-24s drop leaflet in the Netherlands and Germany during
the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 600+ A-20s, A-26s, and
B-26s attack rail bridges, a marshalling yard, communications centers, an
ammunition dump, a prime mover depot, and several targets of opportunity in
morning and afternoon missions aimed primarily at obstructing enemy movement
and supply; fighters fly armed reconnaissance over wide areas, escort the
bombers bombers, attack river traffic, bridges, and other targets, and
support US Third Army elements E of the Our and Sauer Rivers.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 500+ B-24s and B-17s bomb the
Moosbierbaum, Vienna/Lobau, Vienna/Floridsdorf, and Schwechat oil refineries
in the Vienna, Austria area; marshalling yards at Graz, Gleisdorf,
Klagenfurt, and Villach, Austria; Celje, Maribor, and Zagreb, Yugoslavia; and
several scattered targets of opportunity; P-38s also bomb the Moosbierbaum
refinery and Maribor marshalling yard; other P-38s and P-51s escort the
bombers, fly photo and weather reconnaissance, and escort reconnaissance
missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 13/14
Feb, A-20s bomb the bridge approach at Castelnuovo di Garfagnana and hit
targets of opportunity in the Po Valley; during the day medium bombers bomb
bridges or bridge approaches at San Michele all'Adige, Tarvisio, Bressanone,
and hit guns near Ponte Gardena; fighters and fighter-bombers, operating in
poor weather, attack mainly communications targets in the Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 17 Guam Island-based B-24s pound defenses and
radar and radio installations on Iwo Jima Island at midday; during the night
of 14/15 Feb, 5 more B-24s, flying individual snooper missions bomb Iwo Jima
Airfield and AA positions while 4 in separate strikes hit Susaki Airfield on
Chichi Jima Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 33: 6 B-29s from the Mariana Islands
again carry out a reconnaissance mission for the  US Navy, covering the area
northward from the base line at 28-02N 145-55E to 28-44N 148-OOE.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s continue to bomb Corregidor Island in Manila Bay, concentrating on the
dock area and gun positions; other B-24s bomb Mariveles on Bataan Peninsula
and B-25s bomb the airfield at Tuguegarao; B-25s and fighters provide
excellent support for ground forces, blasting guns and troops W of Clark
Field, N of Marikina airfield, and N of Montalban; A-20s pound the general
area of S Bataan. On Mindanao Island, B-25s bomb barges at Zamboanga and
P-38s bomb Matina Airfield. Fighters on armed reconnaissance strafe airfields
on Negros and Cebu Islands. A few B-25s bomb Kagi Airfield on Formosa and
nearby targets of opportunity. HQ 54th Troop Carrier Wing moves from Biak
Island, New Guinea to Leyte Island. The 550th Night Fighter Squadron, XIII
Fighter Command (attached to XIII Bomber Command) moves from Hollandia, New
Guinea to Morotai Island with P-38s, P-61s and P-70s (the detachment
operating from Middelburg Island also moves to Morotai).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

14/0135Z FEB

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:36:19 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: New WWII PC'ism - Dresden bombing

        Hello from Winnipeg Canada.  I am new at this so please excuse
any blunders in etiquette.
        I quite frankly am flabbergasted by this problem with politically
correct people interpreting any history let alone that dealing with war.
You cannot take an event like WWII and disect it into pieces with regards
to morality.  I am assuming that most subscribers are American.  They
live in a country where Japanese exchange students dressed like John
Travolta in Saturday Night Fever get shot for ringing the wrong
doorbell.  The justification is that the man who fired was legitimately
afraid for himself and his family.  How can a country like Britain bombed
to oblivion be held in contempt for returning the favor in the hopes of
winning the war and avoiding their own demise at the hands of the Germans?
        If you want to hold the Allies in a moral light do not pick
Dresden or the A-bomb as have some others but hold them responsible for
doing nothing about the holocaust.  Had they committed an almost
unthinkable act and bombed the camps flat without regards for any of the
occupents (probably not much more than 10 000 at any one time) they would
have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.  That something this
horrendous could have been the saving grace of so many only goes to show
what horror Germany perpetrated.
        I once read in a history of the SS that Hitler at one time when
queried about possible American or British propaganda about the camps
simply stated that he would then pass the problem on to them.  Is the
reason the Allies kept Germany's secret during the war that they didn't
want to be bothered with the refugees?  What other reason can anyone come
up with for the Allies to avoid siezing such a seemingly perfect point
for propaganda?  The Germans were depicted as baby killers in WW I, why
not in WW II?
        What I am afraid of is that political correctness with regards to
history only diverts from the points that truly should be pondered.
Why?  Because history is always written from the point of view of the
victors so we will not shine the light of morality on our own actions and
at the same time provide fuel for revisionists who want to distort
history in order to erase the crimes of the past.  The only logical
reason I can see for this is that it might make it easier to commit those
crimes again in the future.  Our problem is that we don't think it can
happen again which leads us to question events like Dresden or Hiroshima,
diverts attention from the true crimes, and makes the threat of their
occurance all the more possible.
                                        Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:45:04 -0600
From:    Bob Milan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-FEB-1945

I have a question regarding the address of the WW2 archives, 50 years
ago. When I enter that address in Netscape it tells me "unable to locate
host". I have tried several times, carefully making sure I have the
address correct. can you Help? Thanks.

______________________________________________________________________________
Bob Milan                               E-Mail : [email-masked]
Kelvin High School-Economics/History    Phone  : (204) 474-1492
155 Kingsway Ave.                       Fax    : (204) 453-2116
Winnipeg, Manitoba
CANADA
______________________________________________________________________________
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands
it. ...Albert Einstein

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Sullivans

 >Cheryl,
 >
 >Your note at the end of Howard part II mentions "Five brothers named
 >Sullivan, all serving on the same ship, were killed in Hawaii."  I'm not
 >sure of the name of the act, but it could well have been called by that
 >name.  The Sullivans, from Waterloo, Iowa, all enlisted after learning
 >that a friend of theirs had been killed at Pearl Harbor.  They joined
 >the Navy on the stipulation that they be allowed to serve on the same
 >ship.

SNIP    SNIP   SNIP

One little known fact is that the two oldest brothers, George and
Francis, had both enlisted in the US Navy on 11 May 37 and served
in USS Hovey (DD-208) until Jun 41.  On 3 Jan 42, George and
Francis reenlisted along with the three other brothers, Joseph,
Madison and Albert to avenge a friend who had been killed in USS
Arizona (BB-39) during the Pearl Harbor attack.

The Fletcher Class Destroyer The Sullivans (DD-537) was laid down
as Putnam on 10 Oct 42 at San Francisco, California by the
Bethlehem Stell Co; she was renamed The Sullivans on 6 Feb 43;
launched 4 Apr 43 sponsored by Mrs. Thomas F. Sullivan, the mother
of the five boys; and commissioned on 30 Sep 43.  She was
decommissioned 10 Jan 46 and remained there until recommissioning
on 6 Jul 51.  She was decommissioned for the last time on 7 Jan 65
and in 1977, she was donated to the city of Buffalo, New York.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:02:39 -0600
From:    BALAM V JORGE R <[email-masked]>
Subject: WHY ENOLA GAY?

Does anybody know why the enola gay use that name?
JORGE BALAM "BALITA"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:59:47 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN RE: ? NATIVE AMERI

Thanks for your information about Native Americans in the services in WWII. As
you may know, the Navajo Marines were/are quite proud of their service and in
1972 formed the Navajo Codetalkers Association in Window Rock. It was my
pleasure to be there at that time, interviewing a number of the codetalkers for
the Marine Corps Oral History Program. There at the same time was Doris Paul,
whose book on the codetalkers is about the best and most complete written to
date. There were other Navajos who joined the Marine Corps and did not go into
the codetalker program. And the fact that they spoke the Navajo language, of
course, did not necessarily mean that they would or could understand what the
codetalkers were saying, as they developed a code within the language. I
probably am nattering on talking about what you already know. Regards, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:05:10 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHY ENOLA GAY?

On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, BALAM V JORGE R wrote:

> Does anybody know why the enola gay use that name?
> JORGE BALAM "BALITA"
>
It was named after the mother of the pilot/commander, Paul Tibbet
.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:11:55 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHY ENOLA GAY?

>Does anybody know why the enola gay use that name?
>JORGE BALAM "BALITA"

Paul Tibbets' mother's name.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:12:51 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WHY ENOLA GAY?

On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, BALAM V JORGE R wrote:

> Does anybody know why the enola gay use that name?
> JORGE BALAM "BALITA"

The pilot named it after his mother, Enola Gay Tibbets. Hope this helps,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 20:08:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH:  Dresden

The Dresden City Museum places the deaths from the 1945 air-raids at
                25,000 t0 30,000.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:44:23 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DISNEY Project

List,
It might be interesting to add that the hugh concrete bunker at Watten was
originaly planned as a storage/launch facility for A-4/V-2 rockets. Work was
begun on this installation in August of 1943 under the codename Kraftwerk
Nordwest (Powerstation Northwest).
It was planned to use about 156,960 cu yds. of concrete in the structure! The
facility would have three independent sources of water plus a fourth that was
private to guarantee self-sufficiency. Storage was for 108 rockets with
facilities for a three day supply of fuel. A private facility would produce
liquid oxygen and keep down the evaporation losses. A daily rate of fire was
seen as 36 rockets. After air raids in 1943, the site was no longer
servicable for the launching of rockets and it was only used for the
production of liquid oxygen.
Interesting stuff,
Matthew
Source:
V-Missiles of the Third Reich: The V-1 and V-2
Dieter Holsken
Monogram Publications
pp.- 174-177

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Feb 1995 to 13 Feb 1995
*************************************************