Subject: WWII-L Digest - 4 Feb 1995 to 5 Feb 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:01:02 -0500

There are 30 messages totalling 937 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Marine Corps Chronolog (2)
  2. WANT: MAP INFORMATION
  3. ? NATIVE AMERICANS DUR
  4. Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict) (5)
  5. Ascension Island (3)
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945 (2)
  7. Japan/German and other Nukes
  8. Enola Gay Exhibit (2)
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-FEB-1945
 10. WEAP: Bismark (3)
 11. WEAP: RE: Bismark
 12. ENOLA GAY
 13. Malmedy Massacre
 14. WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC (3)
 15. Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)
 16. Xerox Copy
 17. USMC Chronology 5Feb45

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 00:11:52 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Marine Corps Chronolog

In the first months of 1945, Marines were quite busy with Iwo Jima, Okinawa,
flying from carriers, and finally occupying both Japan and North China. I would
be willing to enter daily what Marines were doing in the Pacific 50 years ago,
but only if there is enough interest in the topic. Please advise. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:19:04 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Marine Corps Chronolog

This devil dog would love to read it Ben (the USMC chronology) if you
would post it.

When I get back from Alaska in a week I'll post a letter that my Dad
wrote about Iwo Jima.  He was on a transport that landed the first waves.

Aloha,  Jim

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 01:00:23 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: MAP INFORMATION

I suggest that you refer to the two-volume West Point Atlas by BGen Esposito.
It may be out of print, but available at libraries. ben frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 02:59:09 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: ? NATIVE AMERICANS DUR

Tiffany, I suggest you read Doris Paul's "Navajo Code Talkers," which tells the
story of Navajos who were recruited by the Marine Corps to serve in the
Pacific, communicating in their own language over voice circuits. As far as is
know, the Japanese were never able to understand the Navajo Marines. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 06:24:36 -0500
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

I think it was fairly standard procedure to shoot down an enemy pilot
over his home grounds, on the logical theory that if you let him
parachute to safety, he might kill you tomorrow. The Japanese strafed at
least two AVG pilots in their parachutes over Rangoon, and perhaps
another (he never got out of the cockpit, so it is impossibly to be sure
about this).

As to whether Americans followed this practice, my local librarian once
told me of his introduction to combat, on a convoy going out to the
Pacific which was attacked by Japanese fighters, perhaps suicide planes,
I don't know; but he clearly saw, and vividly retold, how a P-38 pilot
killed a parachuting Japanese. He was particularly upset because like all
boys of the era he had grown up on stories of chivalry over the lines in
France.

Like so much in war, revenge "justifies" what was formerly unthinkable.
One of the AVG pilots strafed over Rangoon, went on to say:  "Another
time, I got one of those little bastards framed in silk . . .  but that's
another story." Which he wouldn't tell. (I guess I'll delete his name.)

                 - Dan    <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 05:46:10 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Terrence Lindell wrote:

> On Feb. 2 Bruno Wroblewski posted a message about Ascension Island, asking
> about the sorts of aircraft that passed through their, supplies for the
> garrison, etc.
>
> I have access to the National Air & Space Museum archival videodisc that
> contains the USAF WWII Overseas photo collection (about 50,000 images).  I
> looked up what it had on Ascension Island and found about 120 images.  I
> know nothing about the numbers of aircraft that passed through there, but
> I found images of the following a/c types:  P-39, B-25, C-47, C-54, B-17,
> and B-26.
>
> The island looked pretty bleak during WWII.  What I found most interesting
> was a section of photos on agriculture.  There were apparently extensive
> facilities, including a hydroponics lab, to raise food for the troops
> stationed there.
>
> Terry Lindell
> Department of History
> Wartburg College
> Waverly, Iowa  50677
> [email-masked]

Thank you for your information. BTW, when I was there in the 1950's
it STILL looked rather bleak :)
This might have had some bearing on another story which I did not
include in my original post.
I was told that the oppresive atmosphere on the island resulted in
some personell being evacuated due to mental problems. No idea how
much truth in this story.

        Bruno

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:45:07 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, John Riegsecker wrote:

> >The Homefront
> >-------------
> >Senators Delay Promotions - The Senate has approved the promotion of three
> >Army officers to the rank of lieutenant general and 28 to major generals
> >but hold up for a week the promotion of 78 colonels to brigadier generals
> >in order to investigate the case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt, second son of
> >the President and one of those up for advancement.
>
> Don't leave us hanging. What is (was) the "case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt"?

I imagine it was just politics (what's new?). Roosevelt was up for promotion
to brigadier and when it came before the Senate they probably decided to
question whether he really "deserved" the promotion or whether it was being
awarded because of his connections. When it says "case" (and this is the
exact wording from my source) I think they are not talking about any type of
legal case but rather just his situation in general. At least this is what I
think; anyone else know any particulars? Maybe upcoming articles will shed
new light. I'll pay special attention to this and will make sure I include
any new updates.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 09:23:55 -0500
From:    Michael Andrew Turton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japan/German and other Nukes

        Henry, you should add Taiwan to the list of nuke nations.
Taiwan got the same deal the israelis did in the '80s: the U.S. looked
the other way whilst they nicked our A-bomb secrets.  They just didn't
get the publicity.  The story is told in David Kaplan's _Fires of the
Dragon_, a history of Taiwan gov't surveillance and espionage activities
in the United States.  The island is said to possess weapons it could
assemble on short notice.

Mike Turton
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:25:22 -0600
From:    Terrance Lewis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

FYI
For those with access but who also missed it:

The Sunday New York Times has an article on this in the "Week In Review"
section (I haven't had a chance to read it yet).

"T"
[email-masked]
Terrance L. Lewis, PhD
History Program
Southern University at New Orleans

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:49:52 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

>> . . .  In his book "The First
>> and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
>> bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
>> wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
>> knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
>> Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this. . . .
>
>Is there anyone on the Allied side that can confirm that this was done?

I can't comment on Pilots in parachutes but I have talked with many Germans
who were young adults in late '44 and '45 who said movement in daylight was
fraught with danger. US Fighters straffed anything that moved - Horses,
dogs, children - Anything. The lady I most remember was an employee of
mine, she had been about 14 and had to ride her bike from tree to tree,
stop and look for fighters on the way to school & the way home. This has
much to do with why Pilots shot down over Germany were stoned and
pitchforked by the populace - the German soldiers saved a lot of pilots
from a summary ending!

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:50:01 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enola Gay Exhibit

I spent a year in Japan in 1953, as a boy - even then the people were
always polite and considerate (and unsure of us). We lived "on the economy"
- ie not in an Army compound - by the time we left a year later we had made
good friends throughout the neighborhood and were accepted. Our cultures
are quite different, but we are all people. The Japanese, maybe more than
the Germans even , were victimized by the political rulers who were
misguided in their attempts to promote Japans growth. The people themselves
are wonderful, some of the "guided thinking" promulgated by their system is
just as dumb as the same junk pushed here by various American spin artists.
Japan gains nothing by Americas economic decline - we are a huge
customer... You take care of your valued customers if you want to keep them
- they are a bit scared of us because they know of our ability to
economically overwhelm smaller countries. They want to remain soveriegn in
their own country.
 The bomb was necessary as it put an end (barely it would seem from Mike
Yaklovichs [sp?] postings) to the suffering for the multitudes at the cost
of a lot of suffering for those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - I have
no problem feeling compassion for those people without any remorse or
apology for the use of the A-Bomb.

>I would like to add a bit to the posting of Jaimie Crafton:
>
>I have Japanese friend who I have known since 1963.  His family is from
>Hiroshima and in 1970 I visited his family there.  He and the other
>members of his family were staying at the family country home but his
>father was in the downtown area when the bomb was dropped.  He survived
>and suffered only a cut across his upper lip which left a (not very
>noticable) scar.
>
>The father told me that he didn't mind the scar since before the women
>chased after him; once he had it they stopped.
>
>Incidently, his wife, my friend's mother, once she found I was single,
>wanted to marry me off to one of the eligible women employees of their
>company.
>
>Perhaps all this was because I was a friend of their son, but I thought
>their cordiality was not only inbred but sincere.

Jim O'Neil  From the interrigation of a German General at the end of WW II:

               "The reason the American Army does so well in War, is that War
                is Chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:00:26 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-FEB-1945

On 06-FEB-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st and 3rd Army sectors, the offensive to
break through the defences of the Siegfried Line continues. The French 1st
Army begins the final phase of operations against the Colmar pocket. In the
XXI Corps sector, the 3rd Division takes the old fortress of Neuf-Brisach.
Elements of the French 2nd Armoured Division advance south between the
Rhine-Rhone Canal and the Rhine River towards the French I Corps. The 75th
Division reaches the canal south of Neuf-Brisach and the U.S. 12th Armoured
Division, with the French 5th Armoured Division, eliminates the pockets cut
off in the Vosges. Units of the 2nd Moroccan Division cross the river Ill
in the Meyenheim-Reguisheim area and advance east of the Rhine Canal to
take Hirtzfelden. The 9th Colonial Division completes the capture of
Ensisheim and sends some units toward Baldersheim, north of Mulhouse. The
4th Moroccan Motorized Division blocks the escape routes from the Vosges,
where all organized resistance has come to an end.

Eastern Front - In East Prussia, fighting continues in the cities of Poznan
and Budapest, which is still strongly defended by the Germans.

Philippines - The Japanese positions at Munoz, which are surrounded,
undergo heavy air and artillery bombardment. The XIV Corps mops up in the
northern part of Manila. The 11th Division digs in on the outskirts of
Manila.

The Homefront
-------------
Two Spies On Trial - William Curtis Colepaugh and Erich Gimpel plead not
guilty when arrigned on espionage charges before a military commision on
Governors Island, N.Y. Their trial proceeds in secret.

Williams Denies He's Communist - Aubrey Williams, appearing before the
Senate Agriculture Commission in Washington in connection with his
nomination to be Administrator of Rural Electrification, has denied he has
ever been a Communist or a member of any subversive organization.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:23:38 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

A bit o' AAF Doggerel about Ascension (and about All I can add to the current
discussion)
'If I don't hit Ascension,
My Wife gets a pension.'

The location of the island made it essential to the 'southern' route foir
aircraft ferrying. RL Scott comments about the island in 'God is my Co-pilot'.
In the 'Franconia Incident', it was a US B24 from Ascension that attacked the
U-Boat which was trying to rescue survivors from the Franconia.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:28:37 -0500
From:    Burt Knight <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

Shooting of downed or parachuting pilots was done by all sides but not in any
degree of regularity.   Galland talks about Goering 'asking' if pilots would
object to such an order and Galland strenously did. JE Johnson did note one
incident, where a Luftwaffe pilot had attacked a man in a parachute. Johnson
then shot down the German plane and as the German tried to bail out, shot and
'Hammered the bastard back into his seat.' A Russian pilot supposedly landed
his aircraft and physically strangled a German pilot whose plane he had just
shot down.  When tempers are up, anything can happen.

It does make sense to ensure that a trained pilot doesn't fight again but it's
not 'chivalrous' but then most of the truths about air combat are quite
different from the myths. The Red Baron focused on two seaters because they
could do the most harm in the long run as spotters and intelligence gathering
machines, not exactly chivalrous behaviour. Hartman's trick was to get in so
close to the other side that he couldn't miss, usually by sneaking up on a
straggler.  If you read Galland and JE Johnson, you'll see a lot of fights
against the stragglers. Usually the stragglers were the least experienced
pilots in a unit, the 'sportsmen' who tried to fight a chivalrous war and died
fast, leaving the 'bastards' to carry on the fight.

BTW- New pilots tended to get the worst aircraft and least experienced
mechanics. If they survived their first few combats, they started getting
better equipment and support.  It's not nice and it's not fair but it's a piece
of reality.  Why endanger a good ship with an idiot who didn't know how to keep
it (or himself) in one piece.  I learned early on to not get close to an FNG
until they'd survived a month.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:45:22 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Bismark

I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then
decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
receive any type of censure for doing this?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:02:29 -0600
From:    Bruno Wroblewski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ascension Island

On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, Burt Knight wrote:

> A bit o' AAF Doggerel about Ascension (and about All I can add to the current
> discussion)
> 'If I don't hit Ascension,
> My Wife gets a pension.'
>
> The location of the island made it essential to the 'southern' route foir
> aircraft ferrying. RL Scott comments about the island in 'God is my Co-pilot'.
> In the 'Franconia Incident', it was a US B24 from Ascension that attacked the
> U-Boat which was trying to rescue survivors from the Franconia.
>

>From the story I heard about the end of the runway crashes, I suppose the
above would apply when you hit Ascension as well.

To comment on the former post describing pictures of agricultural activities
on Ascension:- they were rather restricted.
I don't remember seeing hydroponic installations, but I do recall farming
activities. Ascension is a desert island. The soil is so dry that in order
to obtain electrical grounding for our radar installation it was necessary
to lay a copper cable from the installation to the ocean and to attach it
to a rod beyond the low tide line.
The exception to this was the top of the extinct volcano where  the water
supply was collected. Because of the low level clouds bathing it, the top
was perpetually green. That's where the farm was located. While it may
have provided a limited supply of food for the small British colony,
there was no way for it to supply the Americans. My question on how the
Americans brought in fuel and supplies still needs clarification.

        Bruno

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 12:28:53 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-FEB-1945

You wrote:

>
>On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, John Riegsecker wrote:
>
>> >The Homefront
>> >-------------
>> >Senators Delay Promotions - The Senate has approved the promotion of
three
>> >Army officers to the rank of lieutenant general and 28 to major
generals
>> >but hold up for a week the promotion of 78 colonels to brigadier
generals
>> >in order to investigate the case of Col. Elliott Roosevelt, second
son of
>> >the President and one of those up for advancement.
>>
>> Don't leave us hanging. What is (was) the "case of Col. Elliott
Roosevelt"?
>
>I imagine it was just politics (what's new?). Roosevelt was up for
promotion
>to brigadier and when it came before the Senate they probably decided
to
>question whether he really "deserved" the promotion or whether it was
being
>awarded because of his connections. When it says "case" (and this is
the
>exact wording from my source) I think they are not talking about any
type of
>legal case but rather just his situation in general. At least this is
what I
>think; anyone else know any particulars? Maybe upcoming articles will
shed
>new light. I'll pay special attention to this and will make sure I
include
>any new updates.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>John Davis                           | [email-masked]
>Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
In 1945, the Senate was controlled by the Republican party, while
Roosevelt was, of course, a Democrat.  Just look at how the current
congress wants to investigate every rumor about Pres. Clinton (or how
the prior Democratic congresses went after Bush & Reagan) nothing
changes much in partison politics.

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:23:33 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

>
> I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
> was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
> how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then
> decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
> go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
> light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
> receive any type of censure for doing this?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Davis                           | [email-masked]
> Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
I as well have bee disgusted by this action for many years. Dorschester
was warned that a u-boat had been spotted near the site (either U.73 or
U.556 under Wohlfahrt) but that was unfounded. And even if the cruiser
was in such a danger (which it was not, with several destroyers all
around it) then why not throw something into  the sea to aid the men?
Life rafts come to mind. The rescue operation would not have taken more
than one or two hours more to complete and the nearby destroyers surely
could have suppressed any attacking u-boat during that time.

The last surviors were 3 men found on a raft by a U-boat as I recall. So
clearly many men could have been saved if rafts had been issued to them
or something like that.

107 survived I think and several hundred made it into the water.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:09:00 +10
From:    David Murnain <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: RE: Bismark

>I was watching the National Georgraphic special on the Bismark last night and
>was really troubled when it started talking about the Bismark survivors and
>how the Dorchester (sp?) was attempting to rescue the survivors and then

>decided to call off the rescue leaving most of them to die. The show did not
>go into very much detail on this incident. Could anyone shed any further
>light on this? Why did the captain order the rescue called off? Did he ever
>receive any type of censure for doing this?

  HMS Dorsetshire was compelled to leave the area due to reports of U-boats.
(Which were probably false alarms, but there were u-boats headed that way.)
The Royal Navy did what it could to rescue survivors, but they were
low on fuel, without escorts in waters in which submarines had been reported.
The captain would have been more likely to have been critisised if he had
lost his own ship (and lives of his crew) while rescuing German seamen.

I have not seen the show, but if it gave the impression that the RN was overly
callous to the survivors, maybe it did not mention the manner in which
survivors were treated after they had been brought aboard the cruiser. I think
that maybe the show either - 1. didn't have time to elaborate, and therefore
left the situation a ltlle ambiguous, or 2. was playing for a bit of emotional
content.

-------------------------------------------------------
David Murnain                           |"What is good, and what
[email-masked]|is not good, Phaedrus.?
BHP Information Technology       |Need we ask others to tell us
Newcastle, Australia                  |these things."

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:43:15 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY

I've been silent about this entire thing-sat back and watched from the
sidelines to sorta form a stronget opinion.  BTW--a High school history
teacher told me Enola Gay Tibbets lived in my hometown--Quincy, IL.
Maybe Tibbets was from there as well.  I forget the details.

What bothers me about the outcry regarding the Smithsonian dumping the
display is the cry of political pressure compromising historical
accuracy.  Well--if they were publishing a book then so what--let them
publish it> BUT--this is a historical artifact of priceless value.
People are forgetting a few things--the crew of the Gay wasn;t sure
they'd even survuve the blast or shock waves.  Theirs was a very
dangerous and brave smission they performed for they knew they might
have been vapourized in a moment much like their target.  The difference
between this display and a book is that this is the "official" U.S.
Government display.  Both sides were slaughtering each other and this
was seen as a quick and efficient way to stop the slaughter.  The people
crying this is an outrage against truth in history are probably also
crying that any war is immoral.

I see this entire debate in the context of the historians from the 50's
and 60's--the intellectual basis of the 60's peace movement now coming
into power positions and revising history with their slant.  Good job
VFW and Am Legion for fighting back.  Letting a travesty of the memory
of both sides of the war like they planned occur would be not only
misleading but corrupting.  This could be seen as another addition to
the long list of things that Oliver Stone likes to make movies about.
Yes--we were racist but everyone was racist.  Hell--even a Bigs Bunny
cartoon has been pulled from rentals for him giving popsiclegrenades to
Japanese soldiers.  It will be those of us who need to pick up the flag
of the Vets as they depart to insure more travesties like this don;t
occur.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:46:57 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

British people were strafed and shot at by German aircraft, especially
during 1940 - 1941.
Yet, there is not one documented case of British civilians ever murdering
any German aircrew shot down there.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:20:52 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Malmedy Massacre

Hello, Alex!
The trial of the Malmedy Massacre war criminals stirred up considerable
controversy when it was held, as credible allegations were made that
both physical and psychological intimidation was used to extort confessions
from some defendants.  Then-freshman Senator Joe McCarthy actually began
his rise to fame by coming to their defense.
Nevertheless. the SS men were convicted, although all had their sentences
eventually reduced or commuted.  I have never seen any allegations that
the Malmedy Massacre (and other killings of American POWs and local
civilians) did not take place,or were anything other than war crimes.
Even the rather gullible John Toland, who tends to believe whatever his
interviewees tell him, did not accept the excuses offered by Jochen Peiper
and others for the Malmedy killings.
I have received but not yet read Dupuy's book. Now I'm going to look at
his section on Malmedy!
Jim Curry
[email-masked]

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Alex Bielakowski wrote:

>      I have just started reading Trevor Dupuy's _Hitler's Last Gamble:
> The Battle of the Bulge_ and I have come across something that I never
> heard of before.  According to Dupuy, the facts of the Malmedy Massacre
> and the subsequent trial are both less than clear as to whether or not
> the Nazis actually murdered the men in cold blood or whether many were
> killed in battle or while trying to escape.  Dupuy goes on to say that
> the men who were sentenced may have been railroaded.  I have never known
> Dupuy to be a revisionist, but there's always a first time.  Does any-
> body know anything more about the Massacre or the trial which can
> shed some light on whether or not Dupuy was in fact correct?
>
> Alex Bielakowski
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 17:48:33 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Bismark

On Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:23:33 +0000 Gudmundur Helgason said:
>>
>I as well have bee disgusted by this action for many years. Dorschester
>was warned that a u-boat had been spotted near the site (either U.73 or
>U.556 under Wohlfahrt) but that was unfounded. And even if the cruiser
>was in such a danger (which it was not, with several destroyers all
>around it) then why not throw something into  the sea to aid the men?
>Life rafts come to mind. The rescue operation would not have taken more
>than one or two hours more to complete and the nearby destroyers surely
>could have suppressed any attacking u-boat during that time.
>
>The last surviors were 3 men found on a raft by a U-boat as I recall. So
>clearly many men could have been saved if rafts had been issued to them
>or something like that.
>
>107 survived I think and several hundred made it into the water.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: [email-masked]
>Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
>220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
>ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I, too, am a little disturbed by the abandonment of Germans by British
warships.  I believe, for example, that the raider Atlantis and its crew
were similarly treated.  And then there was the general practice of the
Brits attacking rescue missions at sea by air.  The Americans did this too
on several occassions.
   Elseware on this discussion group, the topic of air chivalry, its myth,
and the hatred that raged in the skies is in progress.  It is clear from
various personal accounts that it didn't take long for the chivalry in the
sky to end.  Why should this not be the case at sea?
   It was a total war in which anything went.  While the crewman of this
or that ship might not have suffered directly given the nature of the war,
their friends and relatives probably did.  And, in this case, it is likely
that the British fleet had often encountered U-boats and took on a philosophy
of better safe than sorry.
   In the end, and this is something the "revisionists" most of all tend to
forget, the Second World War was a tremondously horrible conflict in which
the most inhuman acts of cruelty became almost common.  Not to blame any
particular person, but the war dragged on and the suffering became all but
inbearable.  That is why I think there should be little question about using
the atomic bomb.  Those revisionists seem to think that the bomb was the
only act of excessive violence and cruelty in the entire war.  Yet it was
merely the most dramatic example.
    I wish that war could be chivalrous but it isn't and rarely has been.
That's life.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:22:11 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Ben...
        Like you, my most vivid memories of marching songs are the ribald
ones.  :-)
There's something about a collection of sturdy young men in groups -- military
ones in particular -- that seems to bring out the vulgar. Usually nothing
more serious than high-spirits. Often, this prediliction produced some quite
witty lyrics, however bawdy.
        That tune COLONEL BOGIE which was adapted to become the theme of the
movie BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI was a popular marching song by British and
Commonwealth troops.  It's more usual title was (forgive me) BOLLOCKS!
        "Ber-berp -- and the same to you!" etcetera, a long song of verses
expressing obscene opionions of general, officers, and n.c.o.
        There was another version of it, quite early in WW2, the first line
of which was to the effect that -- "Hitler, has only got one ball,
                                   "Goebbels, he has none at all...."

Sorry about that.  :-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:33:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Ben...
        The First World War seems to have been far more productive of
marching songs than was the Second World War.
        THERE'S A LONG, LONG TRAIL A WINDING..."
        PACK UP YOUR TROUBLES IN YOUR OWN KIT-BAG (and smile, smile, smile...)
        ROSES ARE BLOOMING IN PICARDY
        KEEP THE HOME FIRES BURNING

Whenevr I hear any of them sung, to this day, I feel profound melancholy.
They sound so sad, even though they were long before my own war, the words
of those songs echo the sadness, the self-knowledge of almost certain death,
od the men who marched off to Flanders singing those words.
        OVER THERE!  THE YANKS ARE COMING... (an Irving Berlin song) still
has the ability to evoke similar ffelings for many Americans, I think.

There were several other WWOne songs that had a re-birth as marching songs
in the Second World War. IN a couple of years, some newer songs were added...
        BLESS 'EM ALL (the long and the short and the tall...)
These songs in turn were parodied. The RAF version went something like
this...
        "They say there's an aircraft just leaving the Rhine,
        "Bound for old Blighty's shore,
        "With seven brave airmen all gallant and fine
        " -- s**t scared and down on the floor..."

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:41:05 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WORLD WAR 2 MUSIC

Ben...
        You've set me off. :-)
        Just one more.

Some weeks ago, I was walking my dog on the beach. I caught up with an
'older' man with walking stick and dog. He (the man) was whistling to
himself, the tune of PLEASE COME BACK TO THE RED RIVER VALLEY...

I had to say it.... "Excuse me, sir -- Airborne?"

He broke into a big smile, "Yes, but how...?"  I whistled a few bars,
too.  He laughed aloud, nodded, and went on his way, whistling louder.

Forsome reason, THE RED RIVER VALLEY was adopted by British Airborne
troops -- The Parachute Regiment / Glider Regiment -- as "their" song
aboard aircraft when going into battle. It is associated with them to this
day.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 02:36:00 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japan/German Nukes (was: ATTEMPTED JAPANESE COUP)

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, David Rising wrote:

> I don't know about the German project, but the evidence (post-war) showed
> that the Japanese were pursuing the wrong path (i.e. making a bomb that
> would never work). Perhaps someone else could fill us in on the details.

They were not even close to making a bomb. The first stage in producing an
A-bomb is either enriching Uranium to almost pure U235, or producing
Plutonium. The Japanese tried to enrich uranium with an unsuitable
technique, gaseous thermal diffusion. They also lacked the technogical
basis to support this research. "The making of the atomic bomb" by R.
Rhodes has a brief overview (in a very sizeable and interesting book) of
the Japanese developments.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Feb 1995 02:36:49 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Xerox Copy

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, QUACK wrote:

> I have a copy,50 pages, of "Air-To_Air Combat in World War II: A Quantitative
> History" by Joseph H. Reinburg November 1966. Its a Research Paper P-345.

(breaking all rules for sensible posting to WWII-L)

Me too!

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:32:30 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: USMC Chronology 5Feb45

There is no entry for this date and will be none until 10Feb.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Feb 1995 23:48:40 -0500
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Shooting Downed Pilot (was: Law of Armed Conflict)

On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, Jim O'Neil wrote:

> >> . . .  In his book "The First
> >> and The Last"  Galland recounts his last combat flight, when a Thunderbolt
> >> bounced him and shot up his Me262 jet fighter.  Although he was seriously
> >> wounded, and was running on one engine, he decided against bailing out
> >> knowing the american pilots would strafe him in his chute.  Jet and
> >> Rocket Fighter pilots were especially singled out for this. . . .
> >
> >Is there anyone on the Allied side that can confirm that this was done?
>
> I can't comment on Pilots in parachutes but I have talked with many Germans
> who were young adults in late '44 and '45 who said movement in daylight was
> fraught with danger. US Fighters straffed anything that moved - Horses,
> dogs, children - Anything. The lady I most remember was an employee of
> mine, she had been about 14 and had to ride her bike from tree to tree,
> stop and look for fighters on the way to school & the way home. This has
> much to do with why Pilots shot down over Germany were stoned and
> pitchforked by the populace - the German soldiers saved a lot of pilots
> from a summary ending!

This last comment is especially interesting.  A lot of people don't hear
of it, but one of the ironies of the european air war, was that although
the Luftwaffe was the mortal enemy of allied bomber boys in theair, it
was their only friend on the ground.  Those looking for any trace of
chivalry or humanity in the air war will find it here.  When bomber crews
bailed out, if they survived the trip down (a.  strafing by fighters
b.potshots by ground soldiers )  they would often land in the midst of an
angry mob of homeless housewives and farmers who would lynch them like a
mob scene from an old Frankenstein movie. They would be beaten to death
with fenceposts, pitchforked, or most commonly strung up from the nearest
tall object.  Their best hope was if the boys in blue- the Luftwaffe-
arrived in time to spirit them off to prison.  There at least was some
comraderie left between airmen.  If you can find a copy of Johannes
Steinhoff's autobiography of JV-44 called "The Final Hours", his wingman
returning from having his Me262 shot down over the Danube river, comes
across some wounded B-17 crewmen trapped in a barn by the Gestapo and an
angry mob.  He and another guy pile them into a military truck and drive
off with the civilians howling for their blood.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Feb 1995 to 5 Feb 1995
***********************************************