Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Mar 1995 to 12 Mar 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 00:00:34 -0500

There are 16 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Save one for Mainz ... and unload on Hanau? (2)
  2. war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...) (3)
  3. Moscow travel course
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-MAR-1945
  5. "Butch" O'Hare Death
  6. Machine-gunning survivors in the water:  War crime?
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-MAR-1945
  8. Mush Morton (2)
  9. War crimes in the Pacific
 10. USSR in the Pacific Theat
 11. USSR in the Pacific Theater
 12. Pearl Harbor questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 22:58:42 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz ... and unload on Hanau?

Joseph,

     I was stationed in Hanau at Pioneer Kaserne in 1968 --
when Czech. was overrun, I might add.  The story we had, about
Hanau, was that it was no target, but one day (in the lousy
weather/visibility typical of central Germany) a lead bombardier
mistook it for Frankfurt, and it got its ONE BIG RAID:  70%
destroyed.

     If 70% of Hanau got obliterated in one raid, 80% of an
industrial target like Mainz would seem reasonable.  Also,
the lynching of Allied bomber crewmen was not uncommon.

     (There is that great scene in the feature film "Battle of
Britain" where the English farmers roughly apprehend a parachuted
Luftwaffe pilot ... who is actually *Polish*!  :-)  )

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 08:32:31 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...)

On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

snip

> there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
> Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley Morton,
> didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would *not* have
> been tried for war crimes.

snip

What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?

---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:24:47 -0800
From:    Eric Fenster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Moscow travel course

There is still a chance to go on the travel course to Moscow from 27 May-27
June and study Russia's political, economic and social situation first-hand.

The course is open to all adults, but participants who are students and who
want university credit can do so.

Details and a sample daily schedule are available on request, and questions
are welcome, but participation has to be settled in the next week or so.

Eric

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:56:12 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...)

At 8:32 AM 3/12/95, Roddy R. Rupert wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
>> Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley Morton,
>> didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would *not* have
>> been tried for war crimes.
>
>snip
>
>What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?

I believe the evidence is that he reported it in his patrol report.  The
survivors were Japanese soldiers and his reasoning was that if they made it
to shore they would kill American soldiers.  I'll try to post more later. I
don't think there is doubt that it occurred.  I also agree that nothing
would have been done to him had he survived the war.

When American subs pulled survivors out of the water I think it was more to
obtain intelligence than it was for humanitarian reasons.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 11:03:15 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...)

In message Sun, 12 Mar 1995 08:32:31 -0600,
  "Roddy R. Rupert" <[email-masked]>  writes:

> On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
>> there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
>>    Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley
>>  Morton,  didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would
>> *not* have  been tried for war crimes.
>>
>
> snip
>
> What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?
>
> ---------------------------
> Rod Rupert
> Springfield, MO
>

The evidence against Morton was in his own report of the action.  As I
understand it, the survivors were Japanese troops and the ship (or barge,
I'm not sure) was sunk close enough to shore that they could easily make it
to land. He took the action to stop them from getting to shore.

Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: [email-masked])
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 15:42:38 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-MAR-1945

On 12-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 78th Division holds
against several German counterattacks in the northern part of the Remagen
bridgehead where isolated pockets of Germans remain. The 9th Division is
heavily engaged near Hargarten. The 99th Division advances in the area
between Hargarten and Honingen. In the 3rd Army sector, the VIII completes
the occupation of the west bank of the Rhine. The XX and XII Corps are
getting ready to cross the Moselle. The 7th Army is regrouping extensively
in preparation for assaulting the West Wall.

Eastern Front - The 1st White Russian Front takes Kuestrin, a German
stronghold astride the Oder on the eastern approach to Berlin. The 2nd
White Russian Front closes in on Danzig and Gdynia.

Philippines - Elements of the 11th Airborne Division drive on Mabini until
stopped north of Mainaga by the Japanese.

Iwo Jima - The 3rd and 4th Marine Division mop-up their respective
sectors and reduce pockets of resistance remaining on each of their right
flanks. The 5th Marine Division is assisted by air, navel gunfire,
artillery and tanks as it continues the assault on the final defenses of
the Japanese - a network of mutually supporting pillboxes and prepared
positions on broken terrain on north Iwo Jima. Little ground is gained, but
the Japanese positions are softened and many caves and pillboxes are
overrun.

Burma - The Indian 20th Division is rapidly clearing the region southwest
of Mandalay and captures Myotha.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 12:54:50 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz ... and unload on Hanau?

Lou...
        (sigh)
        Yes, ther was indeed "a great scene in that movie..." where
British civilians roughed up an airman...
        However, once again, as Alfred Hitchcock said, "It's only a movie."
        Why is it that time and again, people solemnly use entirely fictional
movies as references to history. They are simply filmic enyetrainments, with
no pretences to actuality or fact.
        There was not one documented instance of a German or Italian airman
being lynched by British civilians during the entire Secoend World War.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 14:56:55 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Butch" O'Hare Death

In one of Mike Yaklich's recent additions to his fine posts on
the war in the Pacific, he mentioned that Butch O'Hare was shot down
by an American tailgunner during a night action.

The tailgunner involved has recently published his memoirs.  See Alvin
Kernan (I'm doing this from memory, but I think the spelling is correct),
_Crossing the Line:  A Bluejacket's Odyssey in World War II_.  I think it
is published by the Naval Institute Press, though I could be wrong.  It was
recently a selection of the History Book Club.

Kernan describes the incident in question in one of his chapters.  I read the
book several weeks ago and some of the details are beginning to get fuzzy.
During one of the island invasions in the Central Pacific (the Marshalls,
perhaps) the US fleet was in danger of night bombing attacks.  A couple of
TBFs were fitted with early airborne radar sets and sent up, each with a
pair of Hellcats, which they were to help guide to intruders picked up
on the radar.  On the night O'Hare was killed, the Hellcats had failed to
link up with the the radar plane immediately after takeoff.  The Americans
did manage to shoot down two or three Bettys.  During part of the action,
the TBF, the Hellcats assigned to it (including O'Hare), and a Japanese
plane were fairly close together and Kernan was one of people firing.  There
were rumors at the time that O'Hare had been shot down by "friendly" fire
when he did not return.  I'm not sure that was ever an official determination.
Incidently, Kernan reports that all of the Navy aircrew involved, including
himself, were awarded the Navy Cross for this early effort at night interception

Kernan's book has been well received.  His description of the sinking of the
HORNET is one of the best accounts of a vessel's sinking that I have read.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 15:47:55 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Machine-gunning survivors in the water:  War crime?

This may not have been a war crime.  If those survivors
  couldn't have been captured, they were still enemy at large,
  able to be rescued by their own side and brought back into
  the war as combatants.

In the excellent public television program on naval aviation,
  "Wings over Water," USN Adm James Russell told how his PBY
  aviators were machinegunned in the water after they had
  evacuated their downed ship, near the Aleutians and how
  they had been "legitimate targets of war."  (I about fell
  out of my chair when I saw/heard him say that.  (Ironically,
  though, one of the crewmen climbed back into the PBY and
  manned the waist gun that crippled the Japanese Zero that
  was attacking them badly enough -- or so its pilot thought
  -- that he flew it to a nearby Aleutian island where he
  tried to land it and discovered to his fatal surprise that
  those nice, grassy fields were actually muskeg which bogged
  down his landing gear, flipped his plane over, and broke
  his neck.  It was *that* Zero that we captured and flight-
  tested with/against the Grumman Gellcat designed to beat
  the Zero.  There *can* be justice, it seems.)

It should also be remembered that rescued Japanese often
  then attempted to kill their rescuers, and that the
  Japanese usually refused rescue (and capture), in accordance
  with their ruthless Bushido code of war.

Does anyone else on the list know if shooting a bailed-out
  pilot in his chute over *his* territory is actually a war
  crime.  Why should he be allowed to live again to fly
  the very next day -- with the benefit of having learned
  from his previous day's mistake?

(In the "Fighter Aces of World War II" video, an elderly
  American vet -- looking like a warm, grandfatherly
  country doctor, rather than any trained aerial killer --
  quietly described an episode where he found a German
  pilot murdering American bomber crewmen in their parachutes,
  after they had bailed out over Germany.  He cornered the
  German fighter, but damaged it gradually, until *its*
  pilot had to bail out.  He then executed the pilot in
  *his* chute ... remorselessly.)

In his book, Wing Commander Tuck described his own "mercy
  killing" of a Luftwaffe pilot bobbing in his life raft
  in the English Channel in the face of a worsening storm
  Obviously, from his description of the incident, Tuck
  was haunted by his action.  (His own exhaustion at the
  time may have been a factor.)

During the 1992 election, there was talk on Internet that
  George Bush could be accused of machine-gunning Japanese
  survivors during the war, but the issue was never used,
  and the Vietnam issue was never used as it could have been
  against Bill Clinton ... in return?

By 1992, the wartime fear/hatred of the Japanese -- and the
  understanding of the true nature of (that) war -- was so long
  past, that such actions by pilot Ensign Bush (*if* true) would
  probably have been censured with hindsight righteousness ...
  and injustice.

This is just one recent, relevant example of why it is so important
  that (we) historians never allow the true historical context(s)
  of such tragic events to be forgotten.

The intellectual, political explosion about the dropping of the
  atom bomb, toward which we are moving with the impending
  50th anniversary and the various "observances"/final judgements
  of that a-building, is another case in point.  If you thought
  the Smithsonian affair was hot, ...

(I was at the American Historical Association meeting in early
  Feb in Chicago.  The Hiroshima presentations portended what is
  to come.  :-I  My formal proposal for an international Asian-
  Pacific War historical commission -- of veterans, etc., as well
  as academics, formally appointed as representatives of their
  nations' peoples, to resolve and reconcile the historical and
  moral issues of the war -- was considered but later rejected.)

Anyway, ...

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 18:19:11 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-MAR-1945

On 13-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 78th Division is unable to
advance against heavy resistance on the northern flank of the Remagen
bridgehead. The 9th Division pushes on to the region betweeen Kalendorn,
Norscheid and Hargarten. In the 3rd Army sector, the XII Corps complete
their preparations for their attack against the Moselle. XX Corps attacks
southeast from the Saarburg bridgehead after heavy artillery preparation.
Rugged terrain and West Wall defenses make progress slow.

Iwo Jima - The capture of Iwo Jima is considered to be complete, but a
number of pockets of resistance are still present. The 3rd and 4th Marine
Divisions continue to mop-up. The 5th Marine Division encounters fewer
pillboxes and makes good progress on the right flank. Tanks, flame throwers
and artillery are employed to flush the Japanese from concealed positions.

The Homefront
-------------
House Extends Lend-Lease - The House of Representatives has voted to extend
the life of the Lend-Lease Act until June 30, 1946 but directed that it
will not be used for "postwar relief, rehabilitation or reconstruction."

Midnight Curfew Eased - The War Mobilization Office has authorized
exemption from the midnight curfew for restaurants patronized primarily by
war workers employed nearby.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 15:24:38 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Mush Morton

>From _Silent Victory_ by Clay Blair.  In his report, Morton described
the killing of the hundreds (or thousands) of survivors of the transport.
To some submariners, this was cold-bloded murder and repugnant.
However, no question was raised about it in the glowing patrol report
endorsements, where policy was usually set forth.  Many submariners
interpreted this -- and the honors and publicity showered on Morton and
Wahoo -- as tacit approval from the submarine high command.  In fact,
neither Lockwood or Christie, nor Fife ever issued a policy statment on
the subject.  Whether other skippers should follow Morton's example was
left up to the individual.  Few did.

No matter how you rationalize it, I'm certain we would have tried as a
war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
thing.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 17:30:11 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War crimes in the Pacific

A consideration:  Japan had not signed the Geneva protocol
  on the treatment of prisoners of war.

This was pointed out in MIRACLE OF DELIVERANCE:  THE CASE FOR
  THE BOMBING OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, by (Englishman)
  Stephen Harper.

*Very* strangely, the Japanese rejection of the Geneva
  protocol is apparently omitted in John Dower's book WAR
  WITHOUT MERCY, which portrays the Asian-Pacific War as
  a White vs. Japanese race war and chronicles atrocities
  on both sides.  Had the Japanese signed that protocol
  (and treated their captives more humanely), much of the
  Pacific War's exterminatory hatred would have been precluded,
  but Dower omits this.  ("Geneva" wasn't in the index, I
  didn't find anything promising under "Prisoners of War,"
  and my cursory scan of the text produced nothing where I
  expected to find it.  Does anyone else remember Dower
  mentioning Geneva in his book?  )

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 17:35:53 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

>
> [Deleted] ..................., I'm certain we would have tried as a
> war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
> thing.

    Agreed, John.  A double standard to be sure.

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

>
> John Riegsecker
> Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
> University of Puget Sound
>
> [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 00:23:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: USSR in the Pacific Theat

Joseph Feld asks

  >  A question, if I may, was this declaration and commencement *before*
  > the  Nagasaki detonation?  Since I can't believe that the USSR was privy
  > to  detailed information concerning American atomic weapons development
  > and  deployment, and since I assume that Russia would not have started
  > such an  action without extensive prior planning, I'm forced to conclude
  > that the  convergence of dates is merely a coincidence.  The more so
  > since Stalin  assumed the US was actually going to invade Japan.  Does
  > anyone else  concur?

  An interesting question.  Stalin promised at Yalta (Jan. 1945) to enter
the war against Japan three months after V-E day, the time needed to
redeploy Soviet forces.  V-E Day turned out to be May 7, so his attack on
August 9th was just two days behind schedule.  It may be that the A-bombs
gave him the final nudge, but this was one promise he kept.

Ed Miller   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:01:15 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USSR in the Pacific Theater

> Joseph Feld asks
>
>   >  A question, if I may, was this declaration and commencement *before*
>   > the  Nagasaki detonation?  Since I can't believe that the USSR was privy
>   > to  detailed information concerning American atomic weapons development

Joseph,

     In his recently published memoirs, Stalin's spymaster, Sudoplatov,
alleges exactly that:  That the NKVD *did* have a direct conduit of
information from the American nuclear weapons scientists/program.  The
claim is that Oppenheimer knowingly facilitated the placement of
Soviet operatives in the program and acquiesced to the exportation of
our a-bomb technology to the Soviets.  Sudoplatov is hard to refute,
and the implications of American scientists' collaboration with the
Soviets -- via the Berkeley lab -- are profound and staggering:  it
was with the a-bomb under his belt that Stalin could subjugate E.
Europe and support the invasion of S. Korea without fear of direct
military attack from the U.S.

     One question about this, though:  If Stalin was getting full
intelligence about our program, he would have known that we had only
a few warheads constructed and available.  If he really wanted to
prolong the war, to expand and consolidate his gains in Asia,
wouldn't he have forewarned the Japanese, so that they could better
prepare themselves to endure the blasts and fight on?  (Or would he
have considered the risk of forewarning them too great:  that they
might have instead sued for peace -- unconditional surrender, even
-- sooner?)  Anyway, ...

     I'll post the bibliographic entry for S.'s book to you, if you
give me your e-mail address.

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:22:05 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Pearl Harbor questions

I've been reading Stillwell's AIR RAID:  PEARL HARBOR!
  collection of American and Japanese eyewitness accounts
  of the attack and have come across a couple of items
  which have struck my curiosity.

1. On p. 234, Peggy Hughes Ryan told about the improvised
  bomb shelters soon being populated by huge Hawaiian
  "Boffo" toads ... and SCORPIONS!  I didn't know scorpions
  are on the Hawaiian Islands.  Are they indigenous, or
  were they transplanted by ship?

2. On pp. 184-5, LT Charles A. Curtze is quoted as saying:

  ST. LOUIS put to sea through the narrow shallow entrance
  out through the reef making turns for about 25 knots but
  pushing or dragging her displacement in the water ahead
  or astern making good perhaps 10-12 knots. ...

     Could someone please explain the hydrodynamics of
  this?

Thanks.

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Mar 1995 to 12 Mar 1995
*************************************************