Subject: WWII-L Digest - 30 Mar 1995 to 31 Mar 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 00:01:29 -0500

There are 91 messages totalling 2873 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW2 Rifles (4)
  2. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (7)
  3. Great World War II movies. (4)
  4. Great WWII movies (5)
  5. USS Ward (DD-139)
  6. What If? (2)
  7. ACCIDENTAL KILLING OF
  8. V-J DAY OR V-P DAY  (re:  Ben)
  9. Paul H. Silverstone
 10. Okinawa Commemoration (3)
 11. Medals and Awards (5)
 12. V-J Day or V-P Day (7)
 13. Raid on Cabanatuan #6
 14. mail failed, returning to sender (fwd)
 15. INF: USN Chronology 03-31-95
 16. [INF] USAAF 31 MAR 45
 17. What If? -Reply (2)
 18. MEDIA:Ernst Junger(2)
 19. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march
 20. WWII Movies (4)
 21. WW2 movies (3)
 22. Re[2]: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY
 23. BB North Carolina
 24. USS Ward (DD-139) - and Wickes class....
 25. Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain. (3)
 26. Entry #50389 of LISTS.VWAR-L
 27. Warbirds In Liechtenstein
 28. Artifacts/Movies
 29. WWII flicks
 30. Best World War II movies
 31. Das Boot
 32. More from VWar-L, Accidental shooting
 33. Chechniya in World War II
 34. Swastikas over Elbrus?
 35. THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt
 36. Intelligence on Tirpitz
 37. VJ Day or VP Day (2)
 38. books and movies we enjoy-
 39. MEDIA:Russian Booty on Display
 40. E-Boats Was Re:PT Boats..
 41. MEDIA:Dutch War Criminal Released
 42. MEDIA:German Right to Mourn
 43. MEDIA:Australian Fake Medalist
 44. BULGE MOVIES
 45. Apparent misquote (Re: V-J Day or V-P Day)
 46. Lord Lovat  D-Day Commando
 47. Wehrmacht Atrocities
 48. INF: 50 Years Ago - 31-MAR-1945
 49. OKINAWA COMMEMORAT (2)
 50. Hitler's Nephews (2)
 51. Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:41:57 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

There's a Canadian connection to the Lee Enfield.

        The LE's box magazine was designed in 1978 by James Lee,
a Canadian. He died in 1904, and there is a memorial to him in
Wallaceburg, Ontario. His family descendants there are said to
still have the original rifle.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:27:01 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Joe...
        Yes, STALINGRAD is available on video. 'Saw it a few weeks ago.
However, to my mind, the movie falls off about half-way.
        First part is first-class, showing conditions of German army
ar Stalingrad. From then on, though, the movie shifts away from the
battle, and goes all "alegorical", self-conscious 'symbolism', as it
follows six stubble-hoppers into the snow. Maybe this shift was simply
for reasons of budget. After all, it costs a bundle to film an entire
army of extras.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:19:40 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Lou...
        That Van Johnson movie was
                BATTLEGROUND.
I agree. One of the best war movies. Authentic looking as a newsreel.

        I also nominate among the best of the genre:

        THEY WERE NOT DIVIDED (battle of Arnhem)

        GO FOR BROKE (US nisei regiment)

        TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH (USAAF)

        THE DAMBUSTERS (RAF)

        AGAINST THE WIND (British SOE)

        THE BRIDGE (German boy soldiers)

        THE CRUEL SEA (Royal Navy corvettes)

        ATTACK! (US army)

        STEEL HELMET (US army in Korea)

        A HILL IN KOREA (British army)

        BATTLEGROUND (battle of Bastogne)

        THEY WERE NOT DIVIDED (British tanks)

There are a few more...

        Overall, my own criterion for judging "best" war movies
        -- authentic detail, and a minimum of "heroics".

Enjoy!

Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 20:48:13 EST5EDT
From:    "Dr. Tom Veve" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Great WWII movies

My .02.  No question, Das Boot.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:55:29 -0500
From:    Paul Silverstone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > Ward, DD 139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
> > big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
> > or "four pipers".
>
> Just a curious question: How were destroyers born? I understand that they
> were born by WWI time, but which kind of ship were they replacing? (i.e.
> monitors?) Which were the first destroyers/classes and their intended role?

The first destroyers were "torpedo boat destroyers" designed to defeat
torpedo boats which were considered a super-weapon in the 1880s.  It
became a super torpedo boat, faster and bigger  and the TB was eventually
dropped.  USN built a number of torpedo boats but they werren't used very
much.  The first DDs were the Bainbridge class of 1898.  See my book
"U.S. Warships of World War I" now out of print.

> > > USS Ward (DD 139) was a flush-deck destroyer,
Wickes class. >
> Does anyone of you know if all the surviving WWI destroyers were still
> active during WWII? Did they receive any important modernization/redesign
> (like the tripod masts on WWI BBs)?
>
A large number of flush-deckers were still around in 1939.  50 were given
to Britain in 1940.  Lots of the others were converted to minelayers
(DM), minesweepers (DMS), seaplane tenders (AVD) and transports (APD).
The destroyers of the Asiatic Fleet were flush-decks and many were sunk.
Some survived the war as DDs.  A large number were scrapped in the 1930s
under the disarmament treaties.
The British DDs were changed as long-range Atlantic escorts.  See
John D. Alden, Flush Decks and Four Pipes.
Arnold Hague, The Towns (a World Ship Society booklet on the British ships)
(1988).

Incidentally some one mentioned the Ward (DD 139) and (APD 16).  This is
of course the same ship as she was converted in 1943 and sunk at Ormoc,
Leyte on December 7 (!), 1944.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 22:59:57 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <[email-masked]>
Subject: What If?

        I have often wondered about the possible outcome of the different
situations in WWII had the Axis especially done things differently.  To
sum up my views as succinctly as possible, I don't think the Axis could
have prevented eventual Allied victory once the U.S. was committed to
their destruction.  I won't even try to muse on whether a protracted 10
or 15 year war would have had continued public support in the U.S.
        The reason I bring this up is it seems to me had even one of any
number of scenarios occured the war could have easily lasted twice as
long (if you believe that nothing short of unconditional Axis surrender
would have been acceptable).  The alternative would have been an armistice
between the Axis and Allies should support for such a long struggle have
faltered on the Allied side.
        Mostly, I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.  I
will outline the scenarios I think could have been pivotal and let any
interested party take the reigns from there.

1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian population.
I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they were
less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As significant as a
British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on the
invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical step.

2.  Had Hitler not split his forces on the way to Stalingrad and the
Germans had at the very least been able to hold in Russia.  The
fall of Stalingrad and the Russians being forced East where presumably
they could have been contained is a logical corollary.

3.  Had Hitler not declared war on the U.S. (Dec. 11/41).  Would the
alliance between Britain and the U.S. vs. Japan been enough for FDR to get
into
Europe as well.  I would be interested to hear what American subscribers
especially the veterans think would have happened.

4.  Had the Japanese decided to approach the Germans about linking up in
the Middle East either as an alternative to attacking the U.S. or as
joint strategy between Japan and her ally.  I wonder what a combined
effort in strategy and command between Japan and Germany might have led
to.  My basis for this scenario is that from what I have read it was the
need for natural resources that prompted Pearl Harbour because
increasing embargo actions from the U.S. were squeazing Japan.  Would oil
in the gulf accessed through a linkup of Japanese and German armies made
attacking the U.S. unneccesary?  Would the Axis threat to the Gulf been
enough to precipitate U.S. action?  I also refer to claims that even
towards the end for Germany she was still capable of sufficient war
production and that only a lack of petroleum prevented a greater military
capability vs. the Allies on the continent.

        Finally I wonder if a protracted war would have in the end
precipitated a nuclear exchange.  The German A-bomb project was set back
by a miscalculation with regards to the efficiency of graphite in
controlling fission.  The Germans turned to heavy water which they were
unabable to produce enough of.  Once the miscalculation was discovered
they were back on track.  The most important point I am interested in
hearing views on is what use the U.S. could have or would have made of
the A-bomb vs. two major enemies not yet at the verge of defeat.  Would
use of the bomb been postponed until a larger stockpile could have been
built up?  Would it have been used to create an armistice?  Would a delay
in its use have allowed the Germans to catch up and if so what
implications?  Perhaps a limited exchange and then an armistice?

                        I look forward to everyones views on any and all
points and any others that you might suggest.  I realise something like
this can descend to the realm of fantasy very quickly which precipitates
my main premise that any one of the four scenarios alone could have
created either a war with no overt U.S. involvement therefore unwinnable
by the Allies or one that ends in a stalemate and an armistice.  (I guess
I am betraying a feeling that North American
willingness to keep fighting if Europe fell would not have lasted much
more than a couple of years.)
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:16:52 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACCIDENTAL KILLING OF

>
> Lou, I rather doubt your story about a Marine officer executing another Marine
> who fired an accidental discharge, that said discharge shot off another
> Marine's arms. What is your source of this fairy tale? Ben Frank
>
Ben,

     A former Marine on WVAR-L.  I don't remember his name, and I
don't (*think* I) still have the post.  If you want to crosscheck it,
though, it should have been in 1993 and Lydia Fish is the moderator
of [email-masked].  I'm not sure back logs can be keyword
searched or not.  (Can they?)

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

     Have we got some VWAR-L members on here?  If so, would you
check with the folks on VWAR-L and see if someone remembers it?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:46:26 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY  (re:  Ben)

>
> Regardless of the rigorous and wiggle rationales for changing the name of V-J
> day to something else, it will always remain V-J Day, Victory over Japan Day,
> because that is exactly what it was, and I don't much give a rat's ass who
> takes exception to that. Ben Frank

God love yuh, Ben, whether you are defending the reputation
  of the Corps or the history of The War (as you believe it),
  you are thoroughly/straight-ahead MARINE.  :-)

Lou Coatney, AUS -- and at least as proud of *that*.
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:55:22 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

>Some of the British WWII era
>propaganda movies are also very good.  They are much better than the U.S.
>propaganda movies.

Of the 'American' movies, 'A Walk in the Sun' is, in my opinion, one of the
best.

Some of the British propaganda movies were, and have remained, classics. I
suggest just three:

'The Way Ahead' Follows a group of raw recruits from basic training through
to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.

'In Which we Serve' Noel Coward as a Captain D. Very good.

'Target for Tonight'. A bit stiff-upper-lip-ish but filmed entirely with RAF
personnel and 'starring' S. Ldr Pickard, who was later killed in Operation
Jericho.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 22:07:41 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Paul H. Silverstone

You wrote:

>     Are you *the* Paul H. Silverstone, who authored/compiled
>U.S. WARSHIPS OF WORLD WAR II, the exhaustive little handbook
>that is running for upwards of $40 in the out-of-print catalogs,
>now?
>
The US Naval Institute reprinted this book a few years ago, so it may be
still in print/available.  I wish someone would reprint the rest of the
series.  I am beginning to think I'm funding Q. M. Dabney's retirement
fund buying those books <BWG>.

Ed Kettler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:30:33 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Okinawa Commemoration

For those interested, the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the L-Day
landing on Okinawa will be held at the Pentagon near the River Entrance at 1100
on Saturday, 1 April. The entire proceedings is to be televised live by C-Span.
The Commandant of the Marine Corps and the Under-Secretary of the Army will
speak. So will I, as I have been asked to speak as a representative of the
veterans of Okinawa. Pretty heady stuff. Also, if anyone is interested, and I
relate the following not out of any conceit, but I will be interviewed on
CNN-International at 1100 or 1115 on Monday, 3 April. Golly, correct the above
to read "The entire proceedings are..." Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:43:17 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Doug Bohannon wrote:

>Many people who end up with rare and valuable military items dispose of them
through
garage sales and even garbage pickup.

I'm inclined to agree with you about this, though like others here, I wish it
were not true.

When my spouse's mother died, I was amazed to find that no one in the family
except the spouse and I were interested in taking several boxes of
miscellaneous memorabilia that included what I considered to be priceless
family photos and items such as navy citations earned by my spouse's father
and a delightful certificate he received upon crossing the equator for the
first time aboard USS Rockaway in 1943. There also were photos of an uncle in
his World War I uniform. I honestly believe that were it not for our
interest, all of these items would have ended up in a trash bin.

Maybe I am not giving the rest of the family enough credit; maybe someone
would have felt motivated to keep them, out of a sense of obligation. But it
didn't look that way at the time.

The bad news is, we have no children to pass them on to.

I would much rather have a collector take the things after we're gone than
have them end up in a landfill somewhere. At least a collector has some kind
of appreciation of what they're worth, even if only in dollar terms.

Jodi Berls
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:01:51 -0600
From:    hansoff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

  Do you happen to have any mail lists for rifles and other firearms?  I
would be very interested in adding those to my mailbox.  Thanx...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:17:41 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Matthew Burchette wrote:

>My ardent wish is that all collectors would think long and hard about giving
their collections to a museum that can care for them, store them, and display
them like they should be. The public should have a chance to see what is
"behind closed doors" and collectors have many things that the public is
being denied a chance to view.

I can certainly see this point when you're talking about a very valuable
piece like Gen. Custer's uniform. But would a museum really take the same
kind of care with more mundane items? The things I have from my
father-in-law's navy service in World War II, for example, are not the relics
of a major player in the conflict--he was an ordinary bluejacket who did his
part. I say that not to downplay his service at all, but I have to wonder if
a museum really would need or want these items.

I guess I hope your answer is yes, because I really do worry what will happen
when the spouse and I are not around to cherish this stuff.

Jodi Berls
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:18:21 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <[email-masked]>
Subject: Great WWII movies

>Just a question from someone who hasn't spent a lot of time on WWII movies-
What are considered to be the "best" movies out of Hollywood?

I haven't seen my favorite mentioned yet: *The Enemy Below*. Some of my other
favorites already have been mentioned, but I'll cast my vote anyway:

*Kelly's Heroes*, *Tora, Tora, Tora*, *Das Boot*, and *A Bridge Too Far*.

And for who-needs-accuracy, cheesy fun, I also enjoy:

*Torpedo Run*, *Up Periscope*, *Operation Pacific* and *Action in the North
Atlantic* (yeah, I know--it's a propaganda film. I still like it.) Guess who
is the submarine enthusiast in this crowd...!

I'm probably going to draw fire for this one, but honestly, I loved *The
Winds of War* and *War and Remembrance*.

Jodi Berls
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:18:24 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

Lou Coatney wrote:

>I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
  correspondence, etc.

It's my personal opinion that the fact that this came from the Clinton
administration is a major contributor to the uproar -- I have to wonder
whether this might've gone over better if it had been proposed by George
Bush, veteran and president. It's pretty darned offensive coming from Slick
Willie, if you ask me.

>However, the ultimate historical emphasis should be on the fact
  that this was as much a victory for the Japanese (*people*),
  as it was for their opponents.

I agree with your postulate that it *was* for the greater good of the
Japanese people, though that's not why we did it and they didn't think so at
the time. However, don't you think that "ultimate historical emphasis* might
be a bit strong? To me, that means the victory for the Japanese people is
somehow more important than the victory for the Filipinos, the Chinese, etc.
And I don't think it was. Perhaps I'm reading too much into your phrasing. If
so, I wish you'd clarify what you mean by *ultimate historical emphasis*.

>    Japan's public acknowledgement of the evil of Japanese
  Militarism and of *that institution's* ultimate responsibility/
  guilt for the grief and destruction of the Asian-Pacific
  War -- to include an internationally acceptable coverage of
  that in Japanese schools and textbooks.

Good Lord, Lou--this does shatter my preconceptions of you. I'd never have
*dreamed* you were such an optimist! If this is the condition, I suspect V-J
Day is safe for decades.

Jodi Berls
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:27:42 -0800
From:    James Wilson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #6

INSTALLMENT SIX IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/30/95

April, 1944.
------------

New Guinea. The 98th Field Artillery, Sixth Army, composed mostly
of men from the rural farms and mountains of America, had been held
mostly at Fort Moresby for a year with no special assignment in the War.
Headquarters prepares to convert this unit of big men into a Ranger
Battalion, similar to those training for the invasion of Europe.

Captain James Fisher, M.D., the Battalion Ranger Surgeon, emerges
as one of the key characters. This amiable, curious, yet humorously
absent-minded young doctor, converts everyone he meets into a
lasting friend. One of the closest is 23 year-old Captain Bob Prince,
the calm, and serious commander of C Company. Prince is a graduate
of Stanford University. A natural leader, he is respected by both
officers and men.

To churn the 98th Field into Rangers, 6th Army chooses a pipe-smoking
West Pointer, 33 year-old Lieutenant Henry Mucci. A dramatic
Napoleon-like character with dark piercing eyes, heavy brows and a
moustache, Mucci delivers a speech the first day of his command...
"I'm going to turn you men into Rangers!" The training of the Rangers
begins. Mucci surprises everyone by going through it all with his men.

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:34:31 +0400
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
Subject: mail failed, returning to sender (fwd)

      wwwww
    /( 0-0 )\
--oOO--(_)---OOo---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Ozgur "Kilroy"  Altinyay       |                                           |
|E-Mail : [email-masked]    | "It is unfair to shoot tanks with anti-   |
|Address: A5 BLOK/47 Konutkent I  |  aircraft guns !"                         |
|         Ankara 06530 / TURKIA   |  Anonymous British Tank officer after     |
|Phone  :+0312-2402089            |  his capture in Halfaya Pass, Africa 1941 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 95 01:13 EET DST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: mail failed, returning to sender

|------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------|
 [email-masked] ... transport smtp: no connection to remote SMTP server: 499 timeout on read from remote SMTP process
|------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------|
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:08:14 +0400 (EET DST)
From: Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
To: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> The old film about the Battle of the Bulge, starring Van
>   Johnson, is considered one of the two or three best war
>   flicks by Don Daudelin, a Western Illinois Univ. staff
>   member who is compiling a book on war films.
>
> The old film "Attack!", starring Jack Palance and Eddie
>   Albert is riveting.
>
> "Thin Red Line"(?), starring Jack W? and Keir Dullea is a
>   gritty depiction of South Pacific combat against the
>   Japanese.
>
> The most unforgettable foreign film I have seen is "The
>   Ballad of the Soldier," about a young Soviet rifleman's
>   anti-tank heroism and then rear-echelon adventures to
>   get home on leave to see his mother.

Yes That was also one of my favorites. besides I would also add a German
film "The Bridge" , whose director I can not rember. It was about a
volksgrenadier detachment of teens defending ( and dying) a bridge in the
final days of the war.

And , also Das Boot directed by umm... err. you know that German director
must also be remembered. It was Wolfgang Petersen wasnt it ?

>
> Lou Coatney, [email-masked]
>

      wwwww
    /( 0-0 )\
--oOO--(_)---OOo---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Ozgur "Kilroy"  Altinyay       |                                           |
|E-Mail : [email-masked]    | "It is unfair to shoot tanks with anti-   |
|Address: A5 BLOK/47 Konutkent I  |  aircraft guns !"                         |
|         Ankara 06530 / TURKIA   |  Anonymous British Tank officer after     |
|Phone  :+0312-2402089            |  his capture in Halfaya Pass, Africa 1941 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-31-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/31 Sat.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Heavy cruiser PENSACOLA (CA-24), by collision,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 10'N., 127 d. 19'E.
             Light minelayer ADAMS (DM-27), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 12'N., 127 d. 08'E.
             Seaplane tender (small) COOS BAY (AVP-25), by collision,
              Central Pacific area,
              12 d. 07'N., 156 d. 27'E.
             Attack transport HINSDALE (APA-120), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area, 25 d. 54'N., 127 d. 49'E.
             LST 724 and LST 884, by suicide plane, Okinawa area,
              25 d. 59'N., 127 d. 50'E.
            Japanese submarine sunk:
             I-8, by destroyers MORRISON (DD-560) and STOCKTON
              (DD-646), Okinawa area,
              25 d. 29'N., 128 d. 35'E.
            German submarines sunk sometime in March:
             U-348, U-350, U-1167, by Army aircraft,
             Hamburg, Germany.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 31 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 31 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 30 B-24s, with an escort of
9 P-51s, blast railroad yards at Shihkiachwang; 12 B-25s bomb railroad yards
at Sinyang while 4 hit the Yanglowtung yards; 6 B-25s damage a bridge and hit
gun position at Sienning while 6 more knock out a bridge near Ninh Binh,
French Indochina and hit storage area at Samah on Hainan Island Bay; 26 P-51s
attack Ningpo Airfield, destroying or damaging several airplanes; 6 of the
P-51s are lost; about 125 other fighter-bombers and several B-25s (operating
individually) attack numerous targets in French Indochina and S and E China
including bridges, troops, supplies, and rail, road, and river traffic.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 12 B-25s hit troop dispersal areas
behind enemy lines in C Burma and hit 1 road bridge and 8 P-38s attack supply
dump at Namsang Airfield. The 164th Liaison Squadron (Commando), 1st Air
Commando Group, moves from Ondaw, Burma to Asansol, Burma with UC-64s and
L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 920: 1,348 bombers and
889 fighters are dispatched to hit synthetic oil plants, a refinery,
munitions plant and tank factory; they claim 9-3-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5
bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 229 B-17s are sent to hit the synthetic oil refinery at Zeitz using H2X
radar; secondary targets hit are the oil plant at Bad Berka (29) and Gotha
(20) visually; targets of opportunity are Erfurt (25) and other (8), hit
visually; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 108 damaged; 1 airman
is KIA; 2 WIA and 30 MIA. Escorting are 117 of 120 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot
MIA).
  2. 294 B-17s are sent to hit Brandenburg (265); targets of opportunity are
Stendal (9) and Salzwedel (9); they claim 0-1-0 aircraft; 1 B-17 is damaged.
207 of 221 P-51s escort claiming 5-0-0 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 371 of 385 B-24s hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at
Brunswick; they claim 3-2-1 aircraft; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond
repair and 3 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 29 MIA. The escort is 253
of 266 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-7 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots
MIA).
  4. 369 of 432 B-17s attack the secondary, the marshalling yard at Halle;
targets of opportunity are Leipzig (8), Weimar (36), Aschersleben (7) and
other (1); 37 B-17s are damaged. Escorting are 225 of 233 P-51s.
  5. 8 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  6. 26 of 30 P-51s fly scouting missions; they claim 1-0-1 aircraft.
  7. 19 P-51s escort 8 of 10 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 550+ A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s hit storage depots at Ebrach, Wurzburg, and Marienburg, the marshalling
yard at Wurzburg, the town area of Rothenburg ob der Tauber, and a target of
opportunity; fighters escort the bombers, hit special targets, fly armed
reconnaissance, and support the US 3d and 9th Armored Divisions near
Paderborn, the XII Corps as it charges toward Eisenach, the XX Corps along
the Fulda and Eder Rivers, and the XVI and XIX Corps S of Haltern and NW of
Lippstadt. The 162d Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group [attached to Reconnaissance Group (Provisional), XII
Tactical Air Command], moves from Azelot to Haguenau, France with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 540 B-24s and B-17s bomb the
Linz main railroad station and sidings, and the marshalling yards at Villach,
Austria and Treviso, Italy and 3 minor targets of opportunity; P-51s and
P-38s provide escort; 37 other fighters on sweeps and strafings attack
railroad targets in the Munich, Germany-Linz, Austria-Regensburg, Germany
area and 43 hit similar targets in the Prague, Czechoslovakia area; still
other F-5s, P-38s and P-51s fly extensively reconnaissance and reconnaissance
escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers bomb
several targets (mostly alternates) in the Po Valley and Brenner area despite
bad weather; B-25s hit bridges or bridge approaches at San Michele all'Adige,
Crema, Canneto sull'Oglio, Legnago, and Manerbio and Steinach, Austria, and
a rail embankment at Salorno; XXII Tactical Air Command A-20s and other
aircraft hit Po River crossings during the night of 30/31 Mar at
Casalmaggiore, Ostiglia, Borgoforte, and San Benedetto Po, rail facilities at
Piacenza and Cittadella, plus nearby ammunition dumps and other targets;
fighter-bombers continue to pound communications and dumps at Lavis, Casarsa
della Delizia, San Ambrogio di Valpolicella, Legnago, and several other
points in the Po Valley and NE Italy; the 97th Bombardment Squadron (Light),
47th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Grossetto to Pisa with A-20s and
A-26s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: During the night of 31 Mar/1 Apr, 5 B-24s from Guam
Island, flying individual harassment strikes, hit Susaki Airfield on Chichi
Jima Island.
    VII Fighter Command: 15 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island bomb and strafe
vessels, air installations, and targets of opportunity on Chichi Jima; 16
more follow with attacks on vessels and harbor area.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 50: 137 of 152 B-29s strike the
Tachiarai machine works, which is completely destroyed, and Omura Airfield
on Kyushu Island, Japan; this is a diversionary strike preceding the invasion
of Okinawa Island which begins at 0830 hours local on 1 Apr; the AAF claims
11-5-3 Japanese aircraft; 1 B-29s is lost and 15 damaged.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Formosa, A-20s
attack an army camp at Saiatan, P-51s sweep from Babuyan Channel to the SW of
the island and B-24s bomb harbors and shipping at Kiirun and Yulin, China. On
Luzon Island, fighters attack targets in the Cagayan Valley and N of Laguna
de Bay, blasting bridges and gun positions over wide stretches. B-25s, A-20s,
and fighter-bombers hit Cebu Island targets, several of the strikes being
flown in support of ground forces. B-24s again bomb Bongao Island and hit
Oelin, Borneo and fighters harass N Borneo airfields.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

31/1232Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:40:47 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Jodi,
Yes, yes, yes! Museums are really interested in the more mundane items. The
custers are few and far between but the everyday people are the true history
of our country. If a museum does not feel that they can care for an artifact
well or the artifact just does not fit into their missin statement they
should refuse the item. In these cases they will probably refer you to
another museum that can be of service.
If you would like to know more mail me at [email-masked]
Matthew Burchette

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:47:00 -0500
From:    Allen Witt <[email-masked]>
Subject: What If? -Reply

>>> D1.OUT."[email-masked]" - 3/30/95 11:59 PM >>>
> I have often wondered about the possible outcome of the different
> situations in WWII had the Axis especially done things differently.
 To

> 1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
> strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian
population.
> I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they
were
> less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As
significant
> as a British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on
the
>  invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical
step.

Remember Dunkirk. If Germany had destroyed british forces there, it
would have had a far greater effect from the military and public
opinion  points of view. The defeat of the forces in France was, to
some
extent, nutralized by the fact that many of the troops managed to
escape to fight again. The combined effect of a Dunkirk defeat
with destruction of the troops,  continued strategic bombing, and
a successful invasion of Britain would have changed the war
dramatically. Without bases in Britain to launch air attacks into
Germany and France, the war would have lasted longer, and
invasion of Europe from the west would have been difficult or
impossible without first retaking the British islands.

> 2.  Had Hitler not split his forces on the way to Stalingrad and
the
> Germans had at the very least been able to hold in Russia.  The
> fall of Stalingrad and the Russians being forced East where
> presumably they could have been contained is a logical corollary.

What if Germany had delayed the invasion of Russia, and
concentrated it's forces on the defeat of England? Consider what
would have happened if England was defeated and occupied before
12/7/41.

Or consider this....What if Russia had not been invaded at all? Would
Russia have remained neutral? Italy-Germany-Japan vs
USA-China-remaining British commonwealth?

Allen Witt
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:52:38 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Ernst Junger(2)

continued....

Sometimes, however, his desire to follow his scientific bent led to
other forms of participation. He was one of the first to sample LSD,
the new drug synthesised in the 1920s by his friend, the Swiss chemist
Albert Hoffmann
...
His best known book, "On The Marble Cliffs", has the hallucinatory
quality of an opium dream. Published in 1939, just as Junger was
re-enlisting in the Wehrmacht, it is an unmistakable allegory of the
Nazi plague that had overtaken Germany, foretelling, with uncanny
prescience, the obscenity of the concentration camps and the
resistance to Hitler among the aristocratic and military circles to
which Junger became privy as an officer in occupied Paris. The book
was banned by the Nazis, who belatedly realised its subversive message
after it had become a bestseller.
After the rigours of the First World War in the trenches, Junger spent
a comfortable Second War in the French capital, rubbing shoulders with
cultural luminaries including Cocteau, Celine, Montherlant, Braque, and
Picasso, before he was ordered home in disgrace after the failure of
the Stauffenberg plot. The end of the war found him in the British zone
of occupied Germany. The military authorities, mindful of his reputation
as a gravedigger of Weimar democracy, forbade him to circulate his
manuscripts privately.
But for all the attacks of the Left who branded him a "proto-fscist",
Junger has always had his supporters in radical circles.
...
His rehabilitation as the Grand Old Man of German literature was cememted
in 1983 by the award of his country's most important literary honour,
the Goethe prize.
...
Junger has always escaped catogerisation. The visitor to Wilflingen today
is greeted by a trim figure with a thatch of snow-white hair and the
ramrod back of his military youth. He favours English-style check jackets
and turtlenecks....He occasionally smokes English Dunhills and drinks
wine and coffee with enthusiasm. He came close to death for the umpteenth
time last year when bitten by a paralysing tick on an insect-hunting
expedition. He goes through the routine of interviews courteously,
speaking in clipped but clear High German...
Junger professes that he has lived too close to death for it to bother
him now, adding: "Nor do I fear the end of the world. When I die, the
world will end for me, anyway." It is the coldness of such sentiments
that make it difficult to warm to him. One can respect him, certainly,
admire him, perhaps, but liking him is hard. On the other hand,
Junger has never asked to be liked. He has viewed his century through
ice-blue eyes.
"We stand before a time of the Titans," he told Kohl and Mitterand in
1993. "Technology is moving out of control. It's going to be rather
uncomfortable."
                          * - *

abridged from the Daily Telegraph Saturday March 25th 1995 to mark
Junger's 100th birthday the following wednesday.

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:37:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march

Hello, Chris!

I agree with your assessment of that movie. It is pure entertainment
to me with very little attention, almost license, to do with history
the way the directors and producers wished.

To view the Germans marching back to Germany in almost parade ground
order after a major catastrophe is not only ridiculous but
preposterous.

Thanks for the post.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:36:56 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Thanks to all who corrected my blunder with the Van Johnson, Battle
of the Bulge movie title.  I would like to add another to the list for
the Japanese side this time.  I rented a video called Zero several years
ago which was a fictionalized account of the development and use
of the Zero in the war.  The special effects were horrible but it was
an interesting insight into the way the Japanese are presented the war
in their own cinema.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:37:27 -0500
From:    James Vaughan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

How about a couple of Britain's best {IMHO), "Sink the Bismarck" and "The man
who never was"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:45:05 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

>
>
>        As an aside to the earlier discussion on sight variations on Lee
>Enfields, it is of note that some of the sights on the older Russian
>M-N rifles are graduated in an old Czarist unit of measure (can't remember
>the formal name off the top of my head, however) that differs from both
>yards and metres (I believe it is smaller than either).  This sometimes
>leads to confusion when the rifle won't pattern as expected at the
>corresponding range in yards/metres.
>

The older weapons (pre 1917) were graduated by "arshins" which is equal to
roughly 28 inches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 05:44:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: V-J Day or V-P Day

Reply to Lou Coatney

LC> At the risk of shattering some stereotypes of me, I'd like
LC> to say that -- after 50 years -- changing the name of the day
LC> of the end of the war in the Pacific from V-J (Victory over
LC> Japan) to V-P (Victory in the Pacific) Day sounds like a very
LC> good, constructive idea ... at least on ONE CONDITION.

LC> I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
LC> Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
LC> correspondence, etc.  Surely, the use of VJ Day at the end of
LC> the war and in the 50 years since should be noted in
LC> history books.

It should be used *always* when referring to the end of the war in
the Pacific.

LC> However, the ultimate historical emphasis should be on the fact
LC> that this was as much a victory for the Japanese (*people*),
LC> as it was for their opponents.  I don't mean this in respect
LC> to the postwar Japanese economic resurgence.  I mean this in
LC> regard to their social and political liberalization and
LC> integration with the rest of our world community.

Given that *that's* true enough, it *still* should be V-J Day!

LC> Our enemies should not be -- or have been -- the Japanese people,
LC> but rather the Japanese Militarism (and militarists) which they
LC> followed.  (VJM Day?)  Even for WWII veterans, it is time to
LC> stop seeing the Japanese *people* as enemies.

I have *never* looked upon the Japanese *people* as enemies,
however the Japan of WWII days WAS the enemy and will be always so.
The Japan of 1995 is an entirely different nation.  When we refer
to "V-J" day, we're referring to the Japan of 1945 *not* to the
Japan of 1995, and everyone should realize that.

LC> However, there *IS* one condition I have for this "enlightened"
LC> renaming to "VP Day"

Let's put it this way:  As long as even one, single WWII vet is
alive, let's call it by its rightful name of "V-J Day".  After that
last vet dies call it whatever the hell you want.  "Cherry-Blossom
Day" ... [sigh] ... but *don't* insult the hundreds of thousands of
American boys who suffered and those who died during that struggle
of one-half century ago.   Perhaps the Bataan Death March should be
renamed, "The Bataan Walkathon" ...

LC> Japan's public acknowledgement of the evil of Japanese
LC> Militarism and of *that institution's* ultimate responsibility/
LC> guilt for the grief and destruction of the Asian-Pacific
LC> War -- to include an internationally acceptable coverage of
LC> that in Japanese schools and textbooks.

That requirement, in itself, absolutely wipes out any name-change.
It will *always* be V-J Day!!!

LC> We MUST reach an international resolution and reconciliation
LC> on the history of the Asian-Pacific War.

Why?  There's absolutely NO justification for such historical
revisionism ... BTW, would you write away the Holocaust also?
Would you put it, too, in the "Boys will be boys" category?

... No, I'm not born again.  My Mother got it right the first time
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:59:39 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

>How about a couple of Britain's best {IMHO), "Sink the Bismarck" and "The
>man who never was"

The trouble with 'Sink The Bismarck' is that it was made before many of the
facts were publicly known. E.g. that the Catalina that found the ship after
contact had been lost was crewed by US personnel who were not officially
there. Also, the rather small, but significant, part played by Ultra.

Perhaps we should also include made-for-TV movies and series such as the
British:

A Family at War
A Piece of Cake
and
Danger UXB

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:20:10 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What If?

Kelvin Brent Luther <[email-masked]> was wondering what if,...
I wanted to respond to the Battle of Britain
>
>1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
>strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian population.
>I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they were
>less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As significant as a
>British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on the
>invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical step.

I'll address the 1st case,...

Key turning point. 'Glad you put this 1st. Hitler crafted Operation Sealion,
which called for the elimination of the RAF prior to a cross-channel
invasion. The op-order was initiated 16July40. Whoa! 1940. It seemed
a sure thing. The primary objective was capture of the south east 100 mile
section of the British coast from Rochester to Portsmouth and 25-30 miles
deep. Army Group A would come across from Calais, Group B from Cherbourg
to Lyme Bay, east of Plymouth, for gaining the second objective which was
an east-west line north of London by about 10 miles. Rundstedt commanded
Group A, Reichenau Group B. Hitler wanted a mid-August time frame. The
German Navy had logistics problems with that and wanted to put it off
'till late-September at the earliest. Admiral Raeder emphasised that
air superiority was essential, thus the obliteration of the RAF became
the task at hand. Goering accepted the task with all confidence. As
Liddell Hart puts it, "... and so the struggle in the air became the
principle feature - indeed, the only feature - of the decisive Battle
of Britain."

Had this battle gone to Germany, the American Army would have had a
very tough time opening a second front. Italy would have red rivers,
much moreso than the blood that ran quite heavy anyway. IMHO...

'More later,... Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:14:34 -0500
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]> said:
...
> I also liked The Big Red One.  Although the highlight was Lee Marvin's
> acting? or just being himself.  Lee is buried at Arlington National
> Cemeterynot very far from Joe Louis.

Speaking of just being himself, I've always thought it ironic that Lee
Marvin, a Marine in WW-II, played army ("Attack!", "The Dirty Dozen",
"The Big Red One") and navy ("You're in the Navy Now", "The Caine Mutiny",
"Donovan's Reef", "Hell in the Pacific") roles, but never got to play a
leatherneck on the screen.

Apropos both the movie thread and the current discussion of VJ or not-VJ,
may I recommend "Hell in the Pacific"?  While the ending is a cop-out,
the bulk of the film is quintisentially gritty acting by Marvin and
Toshiro Mifune, and can be viewed as a parable for the way wartime
antagonism gave way to necessary interdependance.
--
Peter Smith -- [email-masked]
Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:19:13 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Okinawa Commemoration

... and I thought I'd have no need for cable... damn! 'Will try to catch
it, Ben,... Good for you! (Give the list a mention, will ya?)

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:27:00 CST
From:    Larry Goldberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW2 movies

My vote would have to be for "Das Boot", "The Enemy Below" and "Cross of
Iron", but for sheer entertainment, I'd have to add "Sahara", "The Immortal
Sergeant",  (I think that was the name ... Thomas Mitchell was in it),the
Navarone flicks and anything with Errol Flynn or John Wayne in it. <g>

Best,
Larry

P.S.  Also thought "Is Paris Burning?" was a pretty fair film.

            *  My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.  *

    Unfortunately (for you), these views represent those of my employer.
                Fortunately (for me), I am self employed.

       Larry Goldberg / [email-masked] / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:32:39 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

My favorate is "Kelly's Heros", not for authenticity but for style.

I could see buying a Tiger, even a replica.

Doug Bohannon
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:49:29 -0500
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

I recently saw Judgement At Nuremburg, and thought it was outstanding.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:42:29 +0200
From:    Robert Martensson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: What If? -Reply

>>>> D1.OUT."[email-masked]" - 3/30/95 11:59 PM >>>
>> I have often wondered about the possible outcome of the different
>> situations in WWII had the Axis especially done things differently.
> To
>
>> 1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
>> strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian population.
>> I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they were
>> less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As significant
>> as a British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on
>> the invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical
>> step.
>
>Remember Dunkirk. If Germany had destroyed british forces there, it
>would have had a far greater effect from the military and public
>opinion  points of view. The defeat of the forces in France was, to
>some
>extent, nutralized by the fact that many of the troops managed to
>escape to fight again. The combined effect of a Dunkirk defeat
>with destruction of the troops,  continued strategic bombing, and
>a successful invasion of Britain would have changed the war
>dramatically. Without bases in Britain to launch air attacks into
>Germany and France, the war would have lasted longer, and
>invasion of Europe from the west would have been difficult or
>impossible without first retaking the British islands.
>
 [snip]
>Allen Witt
>[email-masked]

My pennys worth of thought (as Sweden is closer to Britain than to USA)
is that the major shortcoming of the Germans in 1940 was the lack of
planning and preparations for how to handle Britain after an eventual
fall of France. All sources I have read seems to agree on that the
reason was that they didn't think Britain would continue the war
alone. Another reason could be that they never came that far in their
planning. That it was regarded as a rather long shot to plan for an
invasion of Britain with so many other potential enimies around (remember
that they hadn't planned to start a world war in 1939 and thus might have
been a bit behind in the planning for such a war).

The aim for such planning would be to
a) put up some strategic goals, like:
   - destroy as much as possible of the Brittish expiditionary force.
     (that would mean that they would have put pressure on the
     Dunkirk pocket, making the withdrawal over the channel much more
     difficult, and thus depriving the Brittish the best part of their
     army and possibly lowering the morale of what is left. The price
     would be losses among the panzer divisions attacking the pocket)
b) make logistic preparations:
   - gather engineering resources to be able to quickly build
     neccesary airfields along the channel
   - gather long range artillery and mines to seal off the channel
   - make the fleet prepare themselves for the task
c) make tactical planning
d) start training of special troops
e) gather intelligence

Had such planning been done already from the start of the war I think
the chances for a successful operation SeaLion would have increased
drasticly. There were however a couple of things it wouldn't have changed,
namely the sorrow state of the german navy after the invasion of Norway
and the lack of a good long range escort fighter (or even medium range -
anything better than the Messerschmit). The latter would have
made life really miserable for the Brittish airforce during the battle
of Britain.

        Yours
        Robert Maartensson
        [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:55:30 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  31-Mar-1995 09:43am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: WWII Movies

         It's a bit obscure and I have yet to see it (just got a copy in
    PAL and haven't had the time to go downstairs yet to look at it), but
    "Theirs Is the Glory" is my addition to the list of WWII films.
         From the promo in the back:  "This film is a tribute to every man
    who fought at Arnhem and an everlasting memorial to those who gave
    their lives.
         "Thus the producers describe a unique film which sets out to
    record the events of September 1944 when the 1st Airborme Division
    landed at Arnhem to capture and hold the bridge across the Neder Rhine
    in the face of a superior enemy force equipped with heavy armour,
    suffering in the process grievous losses.
         "One year later survivors returned to the actual battlefield amid
    the ruins of the town to re-enact an action in which they had gained
    the admiration even of the enemy.  'Theirs is the Glory' was produced
    entirely without the use of studio sets or actors and every incident
    was either experienced or witnessed by those who appear in the film.
    Original footage shot at the time is interwoven to produce a remarkable
    piece of cinema history."

         Maybe I'll get a look at it this weekend and report my impressions
    next week.

    Doug McCabe
    defacto curator of the Cornelius Ryan Collection
    [email-masked]

    p.s. Thanks on behalf of Ryan for the endorcements of The Longest Day
    and A Bridge Too Far.  Read the books, though: they're much better.
    TLD was re-released last June and ABTF and The Last Battle will be
    re-released this spring.

Received:  31-Mar-1995 09:55am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:53:22 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Okinawa Commemoration

Ben's note prompts this question:
Why is the first day of the invasion of Okinawa called L-Day rather
than D-Day?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
What's he want a yacht for?  There ain't no money in yachts...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:17:19 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  31-Mar-1995 09:55am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Medals and Awards

         These items and other memorabilia do need to be preserved and,
    while museums may be the best environments (public access) and
    collectors a little less so (no gurantee of public access), I suggest
    local historical societies as another preservation point for these
    items.  These societies tend to treasure such items because they
    generally appreciate the meaning of the history behind they as it
    related to the local area.
         Right now our local historical society (probably like hundreds of
    others throughout the US) has mounted a major exhibit on WWII full of
    artifacts donated or loaned by people in the area.  The exhibit had
    garnered a lot of local press and may be the most visited show put on
    by the Society.  Yes, it is true that these items owned by the Society
    will soon go back into storage not to come out again until the next
    major anniversary.  Yes, it is also true these artifacts will not be
    stored in the most ideal environment for preservation since the Society
    is poor.  But, it is most importantly true that the Society will
    treasure the memorabilia and be happy to drag it out upon request or if
    a patron shows an interest in the period.
         So, don't forget those repositories right in your won back yard
    when it come to saving for the future other peoples' "trash."

    Doug McCabe
    [email-masked]

Received:  31-Mar-1995 10:17am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:13:43 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY

Ben- it is about time that someone thought that as well. I was beginning
to think that onlymy brother and I were of that thinking.  Way to go.
We beat Japan, why change it because we trade with them now.
Chris O'Connor([email-masked])

>Regardless of the rigorous and wiggle rationales for changing the name of V-J
>day to something else, it will always remain V-J Day, Victory over Japan Day,
>because that is exactly what it was, and I don't much give a rat's ass who
>takes exception to that. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:15:17 PST
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

>Lou Coatney wrote:
>
>>I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
>  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
>  correspondence, etc.
>
>It's my personal opinion that the fact that this came from the Clinton
>administration is a major contributor to the uproar -- I have to wonder
>whether this might've gone over better if it had been proposed by George
>Bush, veteran and president. It's pretty darned offensive coming from Slick
>Willie, if you ask me.

First, nobody did.

Second, "Slick Willie," as you call the president, didn't issue any such directive. Did you not
read Jim Adams' post last week? He took great pains to spell out that the administration is
leaving the entire production in the hands of organizers, who are either A) U.S. military active or
retired, or B) historical/honorary outfits. According to Jim, the administration has said only it will
take part and is leaving all production and organization -- including official titles for the event -- in
the hands of organizers.

You may not like Clinton, which is fine with me; I do -- all that's a matter of opinion. If you're into
that, there are other lists in which political flaming is encouraged. Here, though, you have to
have respect for facts. Asserting a sloppy falsehood on someone -- and then expounding cheap
character assassination based on it -- is really bad form.

-- Jim Brady

PS (If military service is really the issue with you, consider the context of Viet Nam. VN was not
WWII. Lots of people, from the top on down, were looking for direction on that one. You have to
respect those who were at least *trying* to stand for something. Rush and Newt didn't exactly
enlist, you know.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:50:00 PST
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

>
>LC> At the risk of shattering some stereotypes of me, I'd like
>LC> to say that -- after 50 years -- changing the name of the day
>LC> of the end of the war in the Pacific from V-J (Victory over
>LC> Japan) to V-P (Victory in the Pacific) Day sounds like a very
>LC> good, constructive idea ... at least on ONE CONDITION.
>
>LC> I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
>LC> Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
>LC> correspondence, etc.  Surely, the use of VJ Day at the end of
>LC> the war and in the 50 years since should be noted in
>LC> history books.
>
>It should be used *always* when referring to the end of the war in
>the Pacific.
>
>

My vote goes to V-J Day. It's history! That's what it was at that moment, in headlines and in film,
and trying to find another title is like trying to rename a battle that took place.

I understand sensibilities change, and it's perfectly fine to accommodate current states of
relations when memorializing the past (old soldiers do this whenever they choose to shake
hands with their former enemies). However, victor or loser, near past or distant memory, to
change the names of things out of their time is as absurd as remodelling Gettysburg.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:31:25 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

I'm not a vet... I've never even been in the military, so I know I can't
truly understand the entire implications of any decision or truly feel the
emotions and first hand memories.

However, the discussion and/or debate over VJ Day boils down, in my personal
opinion, to semantics and verbiage.

It's been said a million times, but words can't hurt -- unless you let them
hurt.  The idea of the term VJ Day upsetting someone is probably real enough.
But it can't hurt someone.  The only time it can hurt is if it's used to
foster and brew a planned distrust or segregation from a people.

I certainly know people who have various bigotries -- against the Japanese,
Republicans, Democrats, Blacks, Whites, Smurfs, certain types of dogs, all
cats... whatever.  But most of these people don't try to spread their
personal insensitivities or unreasonable-ness.

If we look for reasons to change names, reasons can always be found.  VE Day,
of course, is technically incorrect also.  We didn't fight Europe.  We fought
the Axis powers in Europe.  Not all of Europe was our enemy.  So "Victory IN
Europe", though reasonably well named, could still be argued to be offensive
to someone.

VJ Day should remain, simply because that was the term it was given 50 years
ago.  I realize that there are many Japanese who are bothered by it... But
then again, there are 4.5 million names on a petition in Japan demanding that
the Japanese Parliament does NOT issue an apology for the agression against
their neighbors during WWII.  Trying (and failing) to not stereotype, while
there are VE Day commemorations in _Berlin_, it appears that many of the
Japanese people have not yet come to terms with WWII or the end of it.

Should we be sensitive?  I have no problems with sensitivity.  No one wants to
encourage old racial separations or suggest any desire for conflicts.  Again,
it just comes back to being reasonable with what you do.  Present the facts,
present it the way it was, and preserve the history of the time.

The debate over whether VJ Day is an appropriate term is once again debated
on 1995 norms, which is by its very nature dangerous.  Human language evolves
fairly quickly and acceptable norms change extremely rapidly.  Even those of
us too young to have any chance of "visiting" Vietnam can remember the days
when you couldn't say "ass" on the air and television couples had to sleep in
separate beds.  In 10 years, what we consider shocking today may be common-
place and what was acceptable in the past may be shocking.  Moral beliefs and
other beliefs tend to wander around a center line as well.

VJ Day is a historical term.  In 1945, there was no qualms about it and there
shouldn't be today.  Even if our beliefs and realities have changed and evolved
over those 50 years, the terms in use at the time should remain.  If they now
require footnotes or explanations, then give them.  But 90% of the arguments
for renaming something that is "difficult" today is usually to avoid having to
explain it -- that's a cop out.

Leave history alone -- even if it causes us problems today.  Because maybe, it
just won't cause a problem tomorrow.  Leave history in the time it was created.
Only in that way can it be preserved -- even the parts that make people
uncomfortable.  That's usually the parts that make you think... Once you ask
the question "Why?" then the floodgates of knowledge open.

"Victory in the Pacific" is a valid term.  But "VJ Day" was what the day was
given and what it should remain.

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:49:29 -0600
From:    Todd Hively <[email-masked]>
Subject: BB North Carolina

   Subject:       BB North Carolina

Greetings to this list,

My grandfather(John Hively) served on the BB North Carolina when she was
torpedoed during the Guadalcanal campaign in '42.  I would like to know if
anyone on this list knows of any sources that give an account of this event.
I know that a single Japanese sub fired the spread of torpedoes that struck
the NC, as well as an aircraft carrier(Wasp?), and a destroyer(?).  I would
also be interested to know if there are any veterans(or relatives of veterans)
on the list who served on the North Carolina during this campaign.

thanks for any assistance,
Todd Hively
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:02:55 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 movies

His last WAR movie, maybe, but Peckinpah's final film was THE OSTERMAN
WEEKEND (from the Ludlum novel; Burt Lancaster, Craig T Nelson, others)
some final editing of which came after his death.

Me, I've no trouble with T-34/85s in CROSS OF IRON -- ANYTHING just to
have seen those babies in action -- but I can't decide whether seeing
Steiner toss an AT mine onto the tracks of one or watching good old
Private Dietz bouncing Mauser 98 slugs off of the turret of another as a
favorite scene.

'Course, shooting Panzerfausts at the M5s in THE BRIDGE comes close...

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Mike Yaklich wrote:

>         I second the nominations for "Das Boot" and "Cross of Iron"  (the
> latter was Peckinpah's last movie, I believe, and tried to be the "All Quiet On

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:29:27 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

How about the Bogart movie-"Sahara"
CRivera

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:30:09 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

> to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
> actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.
>
Diden't we have a discussion a while back on the number of hollywood
types who actually fought across Europe and the Pacific?-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:07:55 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139) - and Wickes class....

First of all, I find very interesting the USS Ward thread, but I've found
some "obscure" details:

Frederick J. Milford wrote:

> Ward, DD-139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
> big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
> or "four pipers".

Douglas S. Bohannon wrote:

> According to Janes Fighting Ships of WWII, the USS Ward DD-139 was a Flush
> Deck Type, 5th Group. It was one of 7 ships. Laid down on 15/5/18, Launched
> 1/6/18, Completed 24/7/18. It displaced 1060 tons.

According to Frederick, Ward (DD-139) was part of the Wickes class,
composed by 111 ships (DD-75 - DD-185). (Can I assume that Wickes is
DD-75??).

According to Douglas, Ward and her sister ships were only 7(!)
(But he's talking about a 5th Group).

Please, could anyone of you clarify this? Douglas, when you talk
about 7 ships, are you talking about the entire class, or about
the specific batch in which USS Ward was built?

Another question:

Paul Silverstone wrote:

> Lots of the others were converted to minelayers
> (DM), minesweepers (DMS), seaplane tenders (AVD) and transports (APD).

In these designators, does the "D" refer to "Destroyer"? I mean, to
indicate that this ship (minesweeper, etc) is a modified destroyer?

Jorge Merino

PS. Paul, I would like to get your book(s). If you know where I can
find it(them), please let me know.
PS2. Could anyone send me the address of the US Naval Institute?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:48:13 -0500
From:    Micheal Wayne Whitaker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

I was wondering if anyone could help with suggested materials for a paper
I'm working on now.  It's about the Polish forces which managed to escape
to Britain during the war and fight again for the Allies.  I'm trying to
gather enough materials to concentrate entirely on the Poles who joined the
RAF.  I'm also going to Europe in June, and would be interested in museums
or records storage facilities anyone could suggest that I may visit to do
research.  Unfortunately, I don't know Polish so any works will have to be
in English.

Thanks in advance,
Micheal Whitaker
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:49:31 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Entry #50389 of LISTS.VWAR-L

Staright from the VeeWee's, as they call themselves. -Al
--------------------- Entry #50389 of LISTS.VWAR-L ---------------------
Re: Accidental shooting

Date:         Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:59:00 EST
Reply-To:     Viet Nam War Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:         warren murray <[email-masked]>
To:           Multiple recipients of list VWAR-L <[email-masked]>

        jeeeeezuuuussss christ, what a blast from the past
    lou lou is still spreading his bullshit. gotta love it.
    mtk

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:10:31 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

I finally saw for the first time recently THE BEST DAYS OF THEIR LIVES.
This is a late 1940's film about 3 WWII vets coming home.  I found the
acting great and the story very moving.  If you've passed this one up
because it's not a 'battle' story, check it out.

Jim Benn.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:10:18 -0500
From:    "Paul C. Perkins, M.D." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Warbirds In Liechtenstein

Why apologize? No less valid an inquiry than most I've seen thus far!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:22:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Artifacts/Movies

       Doug McCabe: Great post! Our Historical Society has been trying to do
       an oral history on WW2, and, yes, we appreciate, and cherish, anything
       we can get. And yes, we're poor, too! Couple that with general apathy,
       the same core few doing most of the work, well, I'm sure you know the
       rest. Hey, somebody has to do it!

       Movies: Yes, "A Bridge Too Far", just for that opening artillery
       barrage alone, the sounds of the guns being loaded, fired ((Clack BOOM
       ping)

       My personal favorites made during the war are (in no particular
       order): "They Were Expendable" (We couldn't have won the war without
       John Wayne!), "Destination: Tokyo" ("We're fighting for more roller
       skates for children, including the next generation of Japanese
       children"), "Action in the North Atlantic" ("It's a miracle! That's
       not a miracle, it's American seamanship!), and "In Which We Serve".

       To our Canadian members, a). Is "Stalingrad" available for purchase?
       b). I saw a promo a couple of years back on a CBC production called
       "Dieppe", is it available on tape? Was it any good? I'll be making a
       trip to PEI this summer & would like to know. Thanks in advance, eh. I
       can say that. I was born in Moncton.

       Colin Brace            WA1KWA

       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:54:00 PST
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII flicks

Just to cast the net a little farther, you could run through the list of com-
battants and fill in the blanks:

Kanal--Poland--losing the Warsaw Uprising
Fires on the Plain--REALLY, REALLY famous & good--Japan--losing Leyte
OPEN CITY--as good a movie as was ever made--Italy--when the Germans are nomi-
          nally in charge of Rome and the Romans are waiting for the Amis
Night of the Shooting Stars--Italy--waiting for the Amis and starting the post-
                             war civil war
Paisa/Paisan--Italy--for the famous battle of Florence section and the civil
              war in the Po region section
Empire of the Sun--US--if for no other reason, the film is so maddening, it
                   makes you go read the great book
Distant Thunder--India--what happens in Burma when profiteers manipulate rice
                 stocks in '43 because of the war
Closely Watched Trains--Czech--very famous, trying to DO something under the
                        occupation

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:04:22 -0400
From:    Sam Lashlee <[email-masked]>
Subject: Best World War II movies

I wonder why nobody mentioned Casablanca...the story of French refugees.

What irony in the end when the soldier tossed away the Vichy water.

Sam

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:30:00 PST
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Das Boot

To me this is a very interesting line of posting.  To quote Alexander Portnoy,
"Whyohwhyohwhy"?  If there is a concrete definition of insidious then Das Boot
is it.  Those great Uboat heros; that great matinee idol Jurgen Prochnow, who
never made a decent movie over here; all that downer feeling over the deaths of
those noble men, doing their honorable, clean, level best to . . . knock out
Humphrey Bogart in Action in the North Atlantic! or keep the fatherland sup-
plied to keep the war machine turning over.  I know, I know, we're supposed to
sympathize with them on a human level; they didn't ask to be there etc.  But
after you've walked out of the theater completely used up, you start to
think about what you've just seen.  And you go to the library and look at the
book and realize that it was published in the 60s by a Uboat man who survived
and think about the statistic that ended the movie & wonder, how DID he sur-
vive?  And wonder, why write the book? to celebrate the Uboat guys of course,
But fighting for the fatherland cannot be separated from what the fatherland
was fighting for at the time.  Like RE Lee fighting for Virginia, but Mass
Robert, what did Virginia represent at that particular moment?  If one fights
cleanly for an unclean thing, is this something worth celebrating?

I don't think Germany has produced a single film that addresses what WII was
about from the German point of view.  The hard German films are about the 30s--
how we seem to have gotten into some kind of mess--or are all Fassbinder epics
about how corrupt we are because of that mess & because we sold our soul to the
US.  Europa Europa is Polish, the Poles know who is responsible.  But Germans
make movies from books about the 60s or movies about how alienated the children
of the 40s generation are.  When Germany makes a movie about 1939-1945, it's
Das Boot.  And no other country is like that.  Das Boot is a very gripping
movie, mostly because it's got a real movie star as a lead, but it leaves a
funny taste in one's mouth to think that that's all there is.  So there, my
zwei pfenning's worth.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:36:05 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

Mske sure when writing the paper you call them "Poles in Exile" rather
than "Free Poles".  If you talk to vets they tend to get rather specific
on that point.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:14:35 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: More from VWar-L, Accidental shooting

More from the VeeWee's,... Steve Gomes says it's true. He's my neighbor
around here somewhere. I'll attempt to verify sources. -Alan

--------------------- Entry #50393 of LISTS.VWAR-L ---------------------
Date:         Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:35:38 EST
Reply-To:     Viet Nam War Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:         Scarecrow <[email-masked]>
To:           Multiple recipients of list VWAR-L <[email-masked]>

>Date:         Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:09:47 EST
>From:         Alan Wild <[email-masked]>

>Can anyone verify a story of an accidental shooting, ie. Marine cleaning
>his weapon has accidental discharge, killing unit member by "blowing his
>arms off." Lou says the Marine is then summarily executed by other members
>of the unit."

This story is, I'm sorry to say, true. A'course the "weapon" the soldier was
cleaning was an M-60 tank.  Sources report hearing a tinny 'hey, what's
*this* do?' from inside the vehicle just moments before the accidental
discharge. The Marine in question was later found dead after having been
bludgeoned with a large object that authorities suspect was his own stupidity.

Scarecrow [#92]

ps. Pass that on to "The Masked Man" for me, will you Al?

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:26:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Chechniya in World War II

Hello, Jim!

I don't think so. They received much help from the Terek Don
Cossacks, who left with them when the Germans pulled out.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:32:53 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

>> to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
>> actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.
>>
>Diden't we have a discussion a while back on the number of hollywood
>types who actually fought across Europe and the Pacific?-Drew

Yes we did - but as some might say that history repeats itself, the
celebrities/movies of WWII subject routinely resurrects itself.  On a
College Hockey discussion list that I used to be a member of, you wouldn't
believe how many times the "which college pep band is the best" or "which
rink is the loudest" topic flared up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:26:58 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

>-- Jim Brady
>PS (If military service is really the issue with you, consider the context of
Vi
>et Nam. VN was not
>WWII. Lots of people, from the top on down, were looking for direction on that
>one. You have to
>respect those who were at least *trying* to stand for something. Rush and Newt
>didn't exactly
>enlist, you know.)

Actually I did :), but I know who you are talking about

Rob Rush
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:51:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Hello, Jodi!

That would depend on the museum. But a military museum wouldn't
hesitate to accept such a uniform or anything else dealing with
militaria, and that is the sort of museum I would seek out, if I were
to hand over any military items for preservation.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:25:19 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Swastikas over Elbrus?

Hello, Brad and Roger!

It may be of interest to note that the man who placed that flag on
Mt. Elbrus was Heinz Groth, a mountain troop officer, who is still
alive.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:57:09 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

Hello, Jodi!

Accusing some one of waging an agressive war is a term used to label
an agressor who initiates the conflict, as opposed to the entity who
is the object of the agressor's intention.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:03:13 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

Hello, Jodi!

For one thing that dock located at St. Nazaire was the only one of
its kind in Western Europe that was large enough to accommodate the
Tirpitz for any repair or refurbishing work. The British, for obvious
reasons, were most fearful that that ship would get out into the open
seas to threaten convoys, which were vital to their existence.
Thus, any notion that the Germans may have had of transferring that
ship to the area under any foreseeable circumstance, was doomed when
that dry dock was destroyed. They were thus forced to keep that ship
bottled up at Tromso Fjord near Stavanger, Norway, which is where the
British wanted it kept.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:09:20 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Henry Sirotin wrote:

>And to expand the question a bit, what are the choices for favorite
_fictional_ character of the war, movies or books.

Movies:

Every character in *Kelly's Heroes* (what a wonderful ensemble cast that
was), but especially Oddball, played by Donald Sutherland. And every
character in every war movie ever played by Robert Mitchum, especially as the
skipper in *The Enemy Below*. I also confess to a fondness for the Humphrey
Bogart character in *Action in the North Atlantic*, and who could resist as
Bogey as Rick in *Casablanca*?

Books:

Pug Henry from *The Winds of War* and *War and Remembrance*, and Cmdr. Edward
Richardson from *Run Silent, Run Deep*. I didn't care much for the movie
version of *RSRD*, but I've always loved the novel.

Jodi Berls
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:09:23 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <[email-masked]>
Subject: VJ Day or VP Day

OK, OK, message received. I'm sorry I brought up the current president, and
it won't happen again--especially since everybody seems to have gone straight
to flame-on before reading the rest of the post, thus defeating my actual
intended purpose.

Jodi Berls
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:26:21 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: books and movies we enjoy-

I always liked the book "Clear the Decks"-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
[email-masked]   |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:19:00 -0500
From:    Laurie Peloquin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

>         Yes, STALINGRAD is available on video. 'Saw it a few weeks ago.
> However, to my mind, the movie falls off about half-way.
>         First part is first-class, showing conditions of German army
> ar Stalingrad. From then on, though, the movie shifts away from the
> battle, and goes all "alegorical", self-conscious 'symbolism', as it
> follows six stubble-hoppers into the snow. Maybe this shift was simply
> for reasons of budget. After all, it costs a bundle to film an entire
> army of extras.

I have to agree.  The word from the critics (the ones who managed to see
it) was that Stalingrad was something special.  I found it to be full of
war movie stereotypes, the nasty commander, the young recruit, the
inexperienced officer, etc.  The time is over where special effects and
stereotypes can be passed off as a cut above the norm.  That being said,
I did find it entertaining anyway.

Laurie Peloquin
Wilfred Laurier University
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:49:25 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Russian Booty on Display

>From the DoD Newswire 31 March 1995

:RUSSIA DISPLAYS WWII TROPHIES

   ST. PETERSBURG, Russia -- There was a pair of lovers by
Renoir, sitting in a brilliant garden; Cezanne's androgynous
skinny-dippers relaxing at the water's edge; and Degas' distracted
aristocrat, crossing the Place de la Concorde with his daughters and
dog.
   The treasures were part of a show of "trophy art" unveiled
Wednesday at the Hermitage -- 74 Impressionist and postimpressionist
paintings taken from Germany after World War II and buried in the
museum's back rooms ever since.
   The exhibition opens to the public Thursday, but it has already
given rise to a tangle of legal, moral, economic and aesthetic
controversies.
   The works had belonged mainly to German collectors whose heirs --
some of whom attended a special viewing Wednesday -- want them back.
Germany maintains that works from private and museum collections
should be returned.
   But many Russians believe these paintings and other war trophies
should stay in Russia, which suffered tremendous damage and loss of
life when Nazi Germany invaded in 1941.
   The exhibition -- the first of a series of planned trophy art
shows -- runs through October. Nobody knows what will happen to the
works after that, although museum officials say they expect a deal
can be reached under which some of the works could be returned.
   But the disputes took a back seat Wednesday to the paintings
themselves. The works appeared to be in good condition, their colors
vibrant in the sparkling white hall.
   "How wonderful to see it again," 66-year-old Peter Siemens said on
entering an exhibition hall and seeing the first picture, Delacroix's
still life, "Flowers," which he says used to hang in his mother's
room.
   To his chagrin, however, the painting is not among those the
Hermitage says belonged to his father, German industrialist and
collector Friedrich Siemens.
   Most of the works come from one German collector, Otto Krebs. His
lone heir, Frieda Krebs Wolff, attended the opening along with her
husband, Willie Wolff, who said they have little hope of reclaiming
the paintings.
   "It's politics," he said.

:RUSSIAN TROPHY ART SHOW OPENS

   ST. PETERSBURG, Russia -- Russians got their first glimpse
Thursday of a 50-year-old secret -- a wealth of Impressionist and
post-Impressionist paintings previously hidden in storerooms at the
Hermitage Museum.
   Soviet troops took the 74 paintings from Nazi Germany and they had
not been seen since the end of World War II. Some were presumed
destroyed until the Hermitage revealed its closely guarded secret
last fall.
   Museum director Mikhail Piotrovsky told 1,000 invited guests at
Thursday's official opening that the exhibition was "one of the great
artistic events of recent years at the Hermitage."
   Piotrovsky's own father kept the paintings' existence a secret
during his 26 years as museum director.
   The paintings by 23 major artists such as Cezanne, Degas, Monet,
Renoir and Van Gogh appeared to be in good condition.
   They include "Place de la Concorde," Degas' 1875 masterpiece of a
man crossing the Paris square with his daughter and dogs. The
painting was reproduced in art books for decades with the notation
"Missing: believed destroyed."
   There's also Gauguin's "Two Sisters" from his first trip to Tahiti
in 1892, and "The White at Night," which Van Gogh finished only six
weeks before his suicide in 1890.
   The paintings are just some of the "trophy art" that Russia has
recently admitted to possessing. Russian officials say they have
returned 800,000 works of art to Germany since the war, but insist
that Russia has a moral and legal claim to much of what remains.
   Many Russians say that works seized from Germany should remain in
Russia as compensation for the widespread destruction and brutality
of the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:44:22 EST
From:    Mike Long <[email-masked]>
Subject: E-Boats Was Re:PT Boats..

Speaking of the continued use of WWII era E Boats.....

During the early-mid 70s, my Dad was stationed at (I was an Air Force brat)
Langley AFB in Hampton Virginia. The Family Services operation there ran
fishing charters on a refurbrished  E Boat. Many good times were had by all....
Mike

Michael Long
Programmer Analyst II
University of Connecticut
196 Auditorium Road, U-138    |   Bitnet: [email-masked]
Storrs, Connecticut, USA      | Internet: [email-masked]
                   06269-3138 |    Phone: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:58:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Dutch War Criminal Released

>From the DoD Newswire 30 March 1995

:DUTCH FREE LAST WAR CRIMINAL

   THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- The Dutch released their last
imprisoned Nazi war criminal on Wednesday after he served 28 months
of his original life sentence for betraying Jews and resistance
workers to the Nazis.
   Jacob Luitjens, 75, was convicted in absentia in 1948 by a Dutch
war tribunal. He began serving his sentence in November 1992, when he
was deported from Canada, where he had made a new life as a botany
instructor at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.
   Then-Justice Secretary Aad Kosto recommended the early release
last year, citing Luitjens' age and reductions of sentences for
similar offenders.
   Luitjens was among 15,000 Dutchmen who volunteered to serve in
Nazi auxiliary military organizations and local police groups during
the five-year wartime occupation of the Netherlands.
   His release -- a few weeks before the Dutch celebrate the 50th
anniversary of the country's liberation -- was criticized by Jewish
groups.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:56:15 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

You wrote:

>
>>How about a couple of Britain's best {IMHO), "Sink the Bismarck" and
"The
>>man who never was"
>
>The trouble with 'Sink The Bismarck' is that it was made before many of
the
>facts were publicly known. E.g. that the Catalina that found the ship
after
>contact had been lost was crewed by US personnel who were not
officially
>there. Also, the rather small, but significant, part played by Ultra.
>
>Perhaps we should also include made-for-TV movies and series such as
the
>British:
>
>A Family at War
>A Piece of Cake
>and
>Danger UXB
>
>Cris
>
>Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
>(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)
>
>
Cris, there was a US ensign aboard the Catalina, but it was flown by a
British pilot.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:03:07 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:German Right to Mourn

>From the DoD Newswire 31 March 1995

:KOHL: WE HAVE RIGHT TO MOURN

   BONN, Germany -- Chancellor Helmut Kohl said Thursday this
year's 50th anniversary of the Nazis' surrender should be a time to
mourn Germany's war losses as well as celebrate its liberation from
Adolf Hitler.
   Siding publicly with conservatives in parliament for the first
time, Kohl said the V-E Day ceremony in Berlin on May 8 should not
just be a day of expressing gratitude to the Allies.
   Along with remembering Jews, Gypsies and other Nazi victims, he
said, Germans also should be able to mourn their own war dead --
estimated at 5.25 million.
   "Millions of (German) soldiers lost their lives. Millions were
thrown into prisons," Kohl said. "There is also good reason to
remember the millions who suffered as they fled" the approaching Red
Army or were expelled from former German territories in Poland and
Czechoslovakia.
   Leftist lawmakers called his attitude wrong-headed because it was
Hitler -- and not the victorious Allies -- who was to blame for
Germans' wartime suffering.
   "May 8 must be clearly seen as a day of (German) liberation" and
not a symbol of German losses, said Otto Schilly of the opposition
Social Democrats.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:10:37 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Australian Fake Medalist

>From the DoD Newswire 31 March 1995

:AUSTRALIAN WAR MEDAL CONMAN TO SELL COLLECTION

    MELBOURNE, March 30 - An Australian caught making and
selling fake military medals bearing the names of war heroes has
agreed to auction his own genuine collection to refund people who
bought the fakes, police said on Thursday.
     Bradley Lederman, 27, was given a six-month suspended jail
sentence on Wednesday after admitting in a Melbourne court to 17
charges of forgery and three of obtaining property by deception.
     He was arrested after an eight-month probe in Australia and
Britain into sales of 15 sets of medals, including one inscribed with
the name of an Australian nurse bayoneted to death by Japanese troops
in World War Two, police said.
     Lederman bought blank British medals cheaply and impressed them
with the names of Australian service personnel with outstanding
careers valued at to up to A$5,000 (US$3,650) a set, detective
constable Tom Jambrich told Reuters.
     British medals are not inscribed with names. The fake medals were
of high quality and were even sold to a British auction house, he
said.
     Lederman agreed to surrender his personal collection of medals,
worth an estimated A$23,000 (US$16,800), for auction in July, Jambrich
said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:28:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was wondering if anyone could help with suggested materials for a paper
>I'm working on now.  It's about the Polish forces which managed to escape
>to Britain during the war and fight again for the Allies.  I'm trying to
>gather enough materials to concentrate entirely on the Poles who joined the
>RAF.  I'm also going to Europe in June, and would be interested in museums
>or records storage facilities anyone could suggest that I may visit to do
>research.  Unfortunately, I don't know Polish so any works will have to be
>in English.
>
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Micheal Whitaker
>[email-masked]
>
Micheal,

Polish pilots flew with the RAF during the Battle of Britain.  They gave
their British leaders quite a time.  I'm not sure of the squadron ID for
the Poles, but I'm sure someone else here has that information.

If you're going to England on that trip, DO go to the RAF Museum in Hendon.
I have visited there and have corresponded with them concerning Air Chief
Marshal Dowding.  Their scholars should be able to help you with your
inquiries.

Good Luck

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:32:54 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 movies

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't seen my two favorite ones:

            Command Decision
            Fighter Squadron

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:34:24 -0500
From:    Jack Murray <[email-masked]>
Subject: BULGE MOVIES

The Veterans Of The Battle Of The Bulge selected the film BRAVE RIFLES to
show at their 50th Anniversary Program in St. Louis (12-16-94).

Who's seen it?  What are the reviews?  Where do you find a copy?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 17:13:48 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Apparent misquote (Re: V-J Day or V-P Day)

>
> >Lou Coatney wrote:
> >
> >>I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
> >  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
> >  correspondence, etc.

Lou Coatney wrote the above but NOT the below, Jim Brady.  Please
  be more careful of your quotes and combining posts.

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

> >It's my personal opinion that the fact that this came from the Clinton
> >administration is a major contributor to the uproar -- I have to wonder
> >whether this might've gone over better if it had been proposed by George
> >Bush, veteran and president. It's pretty darned offensive coming from Slick
> >Willie, if you ask me.
>
> First, nobody did.
>
> Second, "Slick Willie," as you call the president, didn't issue any such directive. Did you not
> read Jim Adams' post last week? He took great pains to spell out that the administration is
> leaving the entire production in the hands of organizers, who are either A) U.S. military active or
> retired, or B) historical/honorary outfits. According to Jim, the administration has said only it will
> take part and is leaving all production and organization -- including official titles for the event -- in
> the hands of organizers.
>
> You may not like Clinton, which is fine with me; I do -- all that's a matter of opinion. If you're into
> that, there are other lists in which political flaming is encouraged. Here, though, you have to
> have respect for facts. Asserting a sloppy falsehood on someone -- and then expounding cheap
> character assassination based on it -- is really bad form.
>
> -- Jim Brady
>
> PS (If military service is really the issue with you, consider the context of Viet Nam. VN was not
> WWII. Lots of people, from the top on down, were looking for direction on that one. You have to
> respect those who were at least *trying* to stand for something. Rush and Newt didn't exactly
> enlist, you know.)
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 17:27:35 -0600
From:    Chip Merton <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Movies

There is/was a series on PBS called American Cinema which had an episode on
Hollywood's treatment of the genre from after WWI to post-Vietnam. Was VERY
interesting; esp. the discussion by the Vietnam Vets and how they viewed war
prior to arriving in Vietnam due to how war was portrayed in the movies.

Well, now to get back on list....

I saw a film several months ago that was a joint US/Japanese production,
produced by and staring Frank Sanatra. Basicly the story is about a group of
US servicemen who crash land on an island that has been bypassed but still
occupied by an equal number of Japanese. A very interesting side note is
that the special effects (which were rather good for the mid to late 1950's)
were done by the same company that worked on my other favorite type of film...
  The Cheap Japanese Horror Movie  (i.e. Godzilla, Mothra, Gamera, et. al)

Anyway my question... What is the name of this film?
Thanks

--Chip
Chip Merton
IN%"[email-masked]"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:08:11 -0500
From:    Ron Charlton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lord Lovat  D-Day Commando

>From my British friends - The eath of lord Lovat.

Lord Lovat, legendary commando leader of WWII, died at the age of 83.

Lovat was in command of No. 1 Special Service Brigade, a force containing
five commando groups, which landed at Ouistrham on June 6, 1944. The force
washed, shaved and cleaned their boots aboard ship - and under fire - before
going ashore at Sword Beach. They then fought their way six miles inland to
Pegasus Bridge, which had been recently captured and were being held against
a German counter-attack.

Accompied as usual by his piper, Bill Millin, Lovat marched across the Orne
and took up position to repulse the advancing Panzers. He was subsequently
wounded, and as he was being carried off the field on a stretcher sent a
message to his men: "I can rely on you not to take one step back." Nor did
they.

Lovat's role in the proceedings was featured in the epic film The Longest Day
(1962), in which he was portrayed by Peter Lawford.

Ron Charlton
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:08:17 -0500
From:    Ron Charlton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Wehrmacht Atrocities

>From reporter Robin Gedye in London:

The Wehrmact's complicity in extermination policies has been exposed in an
exhibition that destroys the image of a professional army persuing military
objectives.

War of extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht 1941 to 1944, staged in
Hamburg, uses a wealth of documents and unpublished photographs to prove the
army acted under orders in pursuing mass murder policies in the Balkans and
Russia.

The exhibition, which opened last week in conjunction with a 700 page book on
the Wehrmacht's atrocities breaks a post-war conspiracy of silence over the
conscript's contribution to Hitler's war.

The broad picture of Wehrmacht complicity in the Holocaust is backed by
extracts from soldiers' letters home detailing atrocities, often with anti-Sem
ite glee, and accompanied by snapshots of mass executions taken illegally.

Will post more of Gedye's article if there is interest.

Ron Charlton
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:58:36 EST
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 31-MAR-1945

On 31-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 3rd Armoured Division
continues their offensive against Paderborn. In the 3rd Army sector, the XX
Corps is engaged on the line of the rivers Fulda and Eder. The 6th Armoured
Division is advancing towards Kassel; as is the 80th Division also. The
French 1st Army attacks across the Rhine in the area of Speyer and
Germersheim.

Eastern Front - The 1st Ukraine Front captures Ratibor. The 4th Ukraine
Front is advancing slowly on Moravska-Ostrava. The 2nd Ukraine Front
captures Nitra and crosses the Vah, taking Galanta.

Philippines - Fighting is occurring near Salacsac Pass No. 2. The 43rd
Division is advancing in the Santa Maria valley, making contact with the
1st Cavalry Division.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      [email-masked]
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:35:01 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but regarding Europe, although
there was the realization that Germany was the chief enemy, the Axis was
made up of other countries, e.g. Italy, Roumania, Hungary, etc.  By
contrast, in the Pacific the Axis was represented by only one country,
Japan, if we exclude the Thai declaration of war on the U.K. (recognized)
and the U.S. (unrecognized), which hardly came to the attention of the
public.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 20:36:15 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT

I have never found a satisfactory answer to your question, Joe. "L" in phonetic
code at that time would have been "Love," but that has nothing to do either
with April Fool's Day or Easter Sunday. Maybe someone on the board has a better
answer. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:45:18 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hitler's Nephews

        I was shocked recently to find out that Hitler's half brother
Alois had three sons one of whom served in the American forces (I believe
it was the Navy).  Has anyone heard of this?  How was it that he was seen
as a safe security risk?  The account goes on to say that he now lives in
New York under an assumed name (I think his name was originally William
Peter or William Robert).  The other two sons served on the Eastern front
at Stalingrad.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:00:17 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT

How about "L" for Landing day.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:01:49 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Nephews

Kelvin Brent Luther said:
>
>        I was shocked recently to find out that Hitler's half brother
>Alois had three sons one of whom served in the American forces (I believe
>it was the Navy).  Has anyone heard of this?  How was it that he was seen
>as a safe security risk?  The account goes on to say that he now lives in
>New York under an assumed name (I think his name was originally William
>Peter or William Robert).  The other two sons served on the Eastern front
>at Stalingrad.

I should think they would use an assumed name, since even the mustache
of Hitler has gone WAY out of style. ;-) Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:20:19 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

hansoff writes:
>
>   Do you happen to have any mail lists for rifles and other firearms?  I
> would be very interested in adding those to my mailbox.  Thanx...
>

Don't have any direct info. on any firearms mailing lists per se, but I'll
check some of my references.

If you are able to access the basic Usenet newsgroups, however, you'll find
rec.guns, which provides a wealth of discussion on general firearms
topics, and many of the people there can help you track down the parts
you might require.

Regards,

--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:25:39 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Alan:

Thanks for taking the time to send a word of encouragement.  Glad I could
be of help to the discussion.

Regards,

--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:27:59 -0700
From:    John Brewer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VJ Day or VP Day

On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

> OK, OK, message received. I'm sorry I brought up the current president, and
> it won't happen again--especially since everybody seems to have gone straight
> to flame-on before reading the rest of the post, thus defeating my actual
> intended purpose.

        I appreciated both points. No need to apologize to the list, IMHO.
        Especially on this list, strong opinions need not be something to be
        ashamed of.... there is certainly no shortage of them...

        Thanks for the post.
        /john

 John M. Brewer   wb5oau
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 30 Mar 1995 to 31 Mar 1995
*************************************************