Subject: WWII-L Digest - 23 Mar 1995 to 24 Mar 1995

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:00:51 -0500

There are 55 messages totalling 2122 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. <No subject given> (2)
  2. Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies. (3)
  3. Headers And Identifiers
  4. Pearl Harbor ceremonies.
  5. INF: USN Chronology 03-24-95
  6. Cheryl Abdullah
  7. Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy... (3)
  8. Opinions wanted!! (7)
  9. Greenland P-38's (3)
 10. Location of Pictures and Maps (6)
 11. Spell like Hell ... (2)
 12. tactics Elbe River
 13. Military Aids (2)
 14. MEDIA: VJ Day (2)
 15. 50TH: A RESPITE IN FRANCE
 16. ADMIN: AIDs discussion (2)
 17. Raid on Cabanatuan
 18. Balloon Bombs and Unit 731
 19. Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust (2)
 20. Doolittle's Raiders
 21. MEDIA:Copenhagen Gestapo Raid
 22. MEDIA:Canada War Criminal
 23. MEDIA:V1s and V2s
 24. Swastikas over Elbrus?
 25. WEAP: Battleships
 26. VJ Day
 27. USS Colorado (BB-45)
 28. Re[2]: Hitler's Uniform On Display
 29. PT Boat info request and prospective member. (2)
 30. GEN USS Ward & Midget Sub
 31. Soviet Tactical Practices:  James Sulzen *and* Tobias v.G.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 00:41:13 -0500
From:    Danny Parker University of Central Florida <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Subject: World War II, Europe, Ardennes Offensive, Malmedy
Massacre, Jochen Peiper

I am an American writer; my previous books are Battle of the
Bulge [1991] and To Win the Winter Sky [1994]). I have
recently begun work on a new project regarding Kampfgruppe
Peiper in the Ardennes Offensive of 1944. I will be attempting
to create a new account in English of the operations of Jochen
Peiper and his unit. Those familiar will know that this is the
Waffen SS unit which perpetrated the Malmedy Massacre. This is
a formidable task and I have decided to contact anyone on the
net who may have information on this story. European
historians are particularly solicited. In particular, I am
looking for anyone who has information on Gen. Wilhelm Mohnke,
the last general to have seen Hitler alive and the commander
of the 1st SS Panzer Division during the Ardennes operation.
Evidently he still lives in Barsbuttal near Hamburg. Also, I
am looking for anyone with information about Jochen Peiper's
death in the summer of 1976 when he was killed by assassins
unknown near Traves, France.
  -Danny Parker [[email-masked]]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:04:43 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

Louis, first apologies.  I think you may have asked me this before and in
my busyniess I have neglected to respond.

I was not at the Memorial in 1991, but my understanding is that there
were no Japanese invited to the ceremony.  this was a ceremony for the
United States and her citizens only.

I am not sure what the Japanese position is regarding the upcoming
commeration.  I know there are many different events being talked about
by different groups, official and unofficial and private, etc.  John
Devirgillo has written in the past about work he has been doing with a
Japanese veteran group.  He may be better able to provide some insight
for your question.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Jim,
>
>      Was CDR Fuchida allowed to participate in the December
> 7, 1991 commemoration?
>
>      Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
> V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Lou Coatney, [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:19:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Headers And Identifiers

My cheapie internet provider only includes the list address in
the header, and I have no idea who posts a message unless they
include their name and address in their message.  It would help
me a great deal if everyone included even a one-line name and
address logo at the end of their message.

Thanks.

[email-masked]

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:18:58 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

Snip...snip...snip

>      Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
> V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Lou Coatney, [email-masked]
>

Lou & Readers,

There are several events in which old WWII adversaries will meet in friendship
and reconciliation.  Some of these reconciliation events are now rituals in
which the participants meet almost yearly in Hawaii or in Japan.  The number
of WWII veterans dwindle each year, and this will probably be the last
big year for these very special meetings of old warriors.  Here are a few
events in which American and Japanese veterans will meet in friendship:

Battleship Missouri Event - Sept. 2, 1995 in Bermerton

Friendship Declaration Signing - Sept. 3, 1995 in Honolulu

WWII American-Japanese Hand Shaking Ceremony - Sept. 3, 1995 in Honolulu

Friendship Plaque Dedication - Sept. 4, 1995 in Honolulu

Sister Rose Ceremony - Sept. 5, 1995 Honolulu

There are also several other small group ceremonies.  All WWII veterans are
welcome (forget the politicians) to join these events.  I understand that
the people who helped put together the Civil War television special will
be interviewing and taking live footage of these old adversaries for a
future Pacific War special.

If there are any WWII American, British, ANZAC, Russian, German or Japanese
veterans on the list who wish to participate in some or all of these once in
a lifetime events, please E-mail me your address, and I will get you
connected to the right people.  Please feel free to pass this note on to
any WWII veteran that may be interested.

Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

P.S.  To my surprise, there are several AJA men who got stuck in Japan
after the surprise raid at Pearl Harbor and had to serve with the IJN.
These same veterans returned home to the United States after the war, only
to get drafted five years later for the Korean war as American soldiers.
Now that's what I call *BAD LUCK*.

P.S.  A number of IJN veterans are interested in meeting various
American veterans who were fighter pilots, bomber aviators, submariners,
destroyer, carrier, cruiser, and battleship men.  There are also a few
German and Italian veterans who are interested in the various friendship
ceremonies.

P.S.  Trivia:  Which former Axis country built a shrine in remeberance to
their military dead and to the American KIA?   This shrine holds the
names of every American service person killed-in-action.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:30:43 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

John D., thanks for the assist with the information on the events.
****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:38:00 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Jim,
>
>      Was CDR Fuchida allowed to participate in the December
> 7, 1991 commemoration?
>
>      Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
> V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Lou Coatney, [email-masked]
>

Lou & Others,

My recollections are that M. Fuchida had already passed away, and Genda
passed away in 1989-90(?).  However, the senior surviving Bun-Tai-Cho
(Group/squadron Leader), Mr. Hirata Matsumura, did visit Pearl Harbor on
the 50th.  Mr. Matsumura and a number of IJN aviators did not want, nor were
invited, to attend any political ceremonies in the Pearl Harbor navy yard.
Instead, the old IJN avaitors enjoyed shaking hands and speaking with the
many American veterans that visited the Arizona Memorial museum and
visitor's center on December 7, 1991.

Cheers,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-24-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/24 Sat. Battleships (Vice Adm. W. A. Lee) bombard Okinawa,
           Ryukyu Islands.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 68 and torpedo boat
              TOMOZURU, by carrier-based aircraft,
              South China Sea,
              28 d. 25'N., 124 d. 32'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:36:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Cheryl Abdullah

Cheryl,

Please contact me.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:10:50 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

Doug Bohannon forwards a rather lengthly tome inre: How the US military
developed AIDS.

If this is true, then how come "60 Minutes" did a story about a guy in England
dying in the late 50's from a mysterious, unknown disease that was recently
proven to be AIDS?

Someone's pulling someone's leg here...;-)I'm sure I'm not the only
person on this list who saw the story. I'll leave it to others to flesh it
out...
                                                        Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:42:17 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hi Bill,... I liked it, but I am no authority. One fact which I think
might be worth including is that which I learned from a PBS documentary
the other night: that there were over 300 of these camps throughout
Germany and captured Poland.  300 !  It puts it into scale. It certainly
must've been an obvious thing to the German people. It isn't concievable
how they remained oblivious to over 300 camps.

-Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:18:42 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Greenland P-38's

Steve - can you repost the WWW site with the P-38 restoration site pictures. TIA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:18:26 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Julian,

Thanks for doing some exploring to track dowin access to the WWII
photos at the National Archives.  I had found the site while exploring
the NARA resources last week and had copied down the address that
Netscape showed for that spot, but I didn't try to get back in using
only the address.

Sorry for any inconvenience I caused.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 06:54:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Spell like Hell ...

 WWID> it's "it's" when it's the contraction for "it is"; and
 WWID> "its" when it's possessive.

That's true enough but use of "it's" seems more natural as most
possessives use the "'s" construction ...

... Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:14:30 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spell like Hell ...

Frank Scheidt writes

> WWID> it's "it's" when it's the contraction for "it is"; and
> WWID> "its" when it's possessive.

>That's true enough but use of "it's" seems more natural as most
>possessives use the "'s" construction ...

Oighmigawd! Gammmar lessons on a war discussion list. YEEECH!
I thought I'd seen the last of that stuff back in 8th grade...

Anyway, Frank, there are Interstate Highways in Hawaii for the same
reason that we drive on Parkways and park on Driveways...

                                                        :-)Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:17:41 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: tactics Elbe River

Greetings all, I have a question that I guess could be called tactical. I
have been reading about the end of the war, and the meeting of the
Americans and Russians at the Elbe river. My question is this-how do you
coordiate two allied armies meeting each other without them running into
(or worse firing on) one another? just wondering -Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
[email-masked]   |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:24:48 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

a few comments-

> Pogroms, attacks on Jews, were not started with the Nazis.
> European history records many such horrific instances but what
> makes the Final Solution so ghastly is the scale and planning that
> went into Hitler's goal of exterminating the Jewish people as a
> whole.
more to the point, this was to be offical policy. One could claim that
pogroms were not part of a more organized plan.

Mein Kampf, Hitler's blueprint of what Germany should be,
> published in 1924 spells out in so many words that the Jews were to
> be exterminated as Hitler blamed them for every ill he could recount.
actually, hitler origional plan was to simply force Jews out of Germany
and German held lands.

> Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin

overall, a very good article, and a good introduction to those who do not
know all the details of the Holocaust.-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:29:40 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

>
> If this article is true, we now know where some of the people responsable for
> the atrocities went and what their findings were used for.
>
> While I hope the article in not true, it is consistant with US covert
> activities and it is consistant with UN New World Order doctrine.
>
> I would be interested in seeing documentation supporting the comments that
> the  US military protected criminals for their knowledge.
a few points on this article-

1. on last sunday's 60 minutes, pathologists in England solved the cause
of death for a man who died in England in 1959. It was found, looking at
tissue samples kept from the autopsy, that the young man died of AIDS in
1959. They also stated that biotechnology in 1959 was incapable of
producing something like AIDS. The technology simply did not exist.

2. given that, even if AIDS  was a form of biological warfare, it is a
very poor choice, since it can lie dormant for years before showing up.
the goal of any bio or chemical weapon is immediate incapacitation, not a
slow death months to years later.-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:51:44 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military Aids

I think the important issue of the Military Aids article is the question
raised about our governments hiring and protecting war criminals to use their
knowledge and experience.

I know that we obtained rocket and nuclear scientists from the nazis. I also
know that we have used data gathered by war criminals who experimented on
living humans. Would our government and military hesitate to use war
criminals if they thought the recovered knowledge would be useful?

I believe the answer is YES and many war criminals with "valuable knoweldge"
have been hired and protected by our government.

Let me include a disclaimer.

I found some issues of the Military Aids article relevant to the discussion
on Japanese atrocities. I do not endorse the articles accuracy but I do believ
e that some points of the article are well founded.

War atrocities and accountability are not a simple issue, especially when you
consider our governments practice of classifying mass volumes of information
gathered during the war and keeping much of this information secret today, 50
years after the war.

Maybe someone retired from the military or CIA and with nothing to loose
could come forward and enlighten us on what was covered up.

Doug Bohannon
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:57:27 -0500
From:    Pat Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

On Mar 23,  7:39pm, William L. Huber - SAA wrote:
> Subject: Opinions wanted!!

>                Since the early 1930s the Nazis enacted various
> laws against the Jews barring them from government employment,
> industrial ownership, marrying Aryans, etc.
>-- End of excerpt from William L. Huber - SAA

You might want to also mention the laws passed which prohibited
Jews from owning or using firearms, thereby making it harder to
resist.  This is probably getting a little off the WWII-L track
but there is a group today, "Jews for the Perservation of Firearms
Ownership," based out of Milwaukee, WI, whose goal is to publicize
the facts of Nazi gun control as a tool of the holocaust.  But that
could be a whole other essay.

All in all, a good paper.  I enjoyed it.

patrick

--
Patrick D. Marsden          | Naval Research Laboratory     | (202)-404-8229
Computational Physics, Inc  | Planetary Atmospheres Section | Opinions are mine
[email-masked] | Code 7641                     |  and mine alone.
http://power.nrl.navy.mil   | Washington, D.C.  20375       |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:00:34 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military Aids

> I know that we obtained rocket and nuclear scientists from the nazis. I also
> know that we have used data gathered by war criminals who experimented on
> living humans. Would our government and military hesitate to use war
> criminals if they thought the recovered knowledge would be useful?
>
There has been an ethical debate over whether to use medical data that is
collected by people such as megele. There are many moral issues raised
(can data that cost a life through tourture be used to save a life or
ease suffering?)-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:00:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: VJ Day

 WWID> Jim, Ron, & Others:

 WWID> As far as I am concerned, there should be no restritcions on what any
 WWID> group wants to call the day or events.  There are so many veteran's
 WWID> groups and cultural groups involved in the many ceremonies that I feel
 WWID> there is room for many appropriate titles (VJ included).  In the
 WWID> present, friendship and mutual respect are very important.  Althought
 WWID> the past is important, we should not live in the past.  Japan IS AN
 WWID> IMPORTANT Pacific ally today.  My personal views are global.

 WWID> Thank God the the Vietnamese do not celebrate a specific VA Day (do
 WWID> they?). Oucccchhh, that hurts!

Huh?  "VA Day"?  What does *that* mean -- surely not "Victory over
America Day" ... that would make no sense since we didn't *lose*
the Vietnam war, we merely lost interest in it and abandoned it.
If the American public had been behind the effort, we'd have easily
finished-off the North Vietnamese.  *Then* we'd be celebrating "VV
Day" I suppose ...

... Puns are for groan ups.  Its the punetentiary for you.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:00:40 EST
From:    Mike Fetters <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Due to the interest in World War II photographs, I thought that some of
you might find the following National Air and Space Museum press release
interesting. We've recently established a National Air and Space Museum
listserv where we will be posting breaking news, calendars of events and
background information about the museum on a regular (but low-frequency)
basis. Here's the release, I hope many of you will have a chance to come
visit this exhibition.

March 6, 1995

NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM TO DISPLAY WORLD WAR II PHOTOGRAPHS FROM
THE HOME FRONT

Photographs depicting the supportive efforts of those on the home front
during World War II -- including border patrols and volunteer workers --
will be on display at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum
beginning March 30 to October 2.

The exhibition, "Building the Arsenal of Democracy: World War II
Photographs from the National Air and Space Museum Archives," takes its
title from the words of President Franklin D. Roosevelt who, in 1940,
called on Americans to work together and become the "Arsenal of
Democracy."

The 47 photographs in the exhibition illustrate the changes brought
about by the combined efforts of military personnel and private
citizens, working not only to support the soldiers, sailors and airmen
on the front lines, but also to protect the United States from attack.

"Building the Arsenal of Democracy," located in the Pioneers of Flight
gallery on the museum's second floor, is divided into four sections.
Photographs in the "Preparing For War" section show the transition from
old World War I equipment to new technology that was needed to defend
against air power. Aircraft such as the Piper 0-59, a message carrier
that was maneuverable in difficult terrain; the Boeing P-26
"Pea-Shooter," the first all-metal monoplane to be produced in America;
and the Martin B-10 prewar bomber are captured in photographs.

The "Coastal Defense" section of the exhibit includes photographs of
aircraft patrolling American borders, volunteers watching for enemy
aircraft from rooftops, and aircraft protecting convoys from German
submarines.

In "Training, Manufacturing and Transportation," visitors will be able
to view photographs of training facilities in the United States that
were used for airborne troops and aviation cadets; private citizens
buying war bonds at an air show to support the production of planes; and
aircraft assembly lines, converted from civilian to military use.

The final section, "War's End," presents photographs of soldiers
convalescing or receiving their final pay at separation centers.

Curator Thomas Soapes worked with designer Linda King in the selection
of photographs from the museum's archives. The photographs are drawn
from the United States Air Force pre-1954 Still Photography Collection
of approximately 145,000 images, as well as the collections of Rudy
Arnold and Hans Groenhoff, two of the outstanding professional aviation
photographers of the 1930s and 1940s.

The National Air and Space Museum, located at Sixth Street and
Independence Avenue S.W., is open to the public seven days a week, from
10 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Admission is free.

-end of press release-

I apologize in advance for any sentence fragments, typos or misplaced
punctuation.........

For those of you interested in subscribing to NASMNEWS, send a note to:
[email-masked]

Leave the subject line blank. The body of the note should contain only
the text: SUB NASMNEWS Firstname Lastname (where Firstname Lastname
represents your name).

Mike Fetters, Office of Public Affairs, National Air and Space Museum
*********

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:29:44 -0600
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Greenland P-38's

Ron,

The P38 restoration gifs are located on my server and are available
via ftp and www.  Steve scanned them and was good enough to send them
to me.

     FTP;

     hepnrc.hep.net   in /history/ww2/p38

     WWW;

     http://hepnrc.hep.net/ftp/history/ww2/p38/

Jeff

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:44:51 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hi Drew,

> more to the point, this was to be offical policy. One could claim that
> pogroms were not part of a more organized plan.

Good point.

> actually, hitler origional plan was to simply force Jews out of Germany
> and German held lands.

I thought there was a passage where he mentioned that had they been
exterminated that many of the Aryans that died in the first war would
still be around.  That's why I asked for the list's help :-)

> > Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> > rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
> you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin

I thought so and had it in the original draft but since I could not
recall 100% certain I went generic.

> overall, a very good article, and a good introduction to those who do not
> know all the details of the Holocaust.-Drew

Thanks for the tips and the encouragement, it is a touchy subject and
deserves a high degree of sensitivity.   Thanks to all the list
members who have provided many good tips.  I couldn't have done it
without you all.  Several of the points in the article come directly
>from discussions we have had here on the list.

Cheers, Bill    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:42:19 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: A RESPITE IN FRANCE

  Oslo, Norway March 24, 1995

  After breaking through the Siegfried Line and chasing German forces
almost to the Rhine, the 4th Infantry Division moved back to France,
near Strasbourg.  During a rest period, I had time for correspondence
and relaxation.  Chapter 16 of my book LETTERS HOME contains a review
of the military situation in March, 1945 and a number of letters.  Here
are some excerpts:

          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
          *                                                         *
          *     ALLIED FORCES CONTINUE TO ATTACK ON BROAD FRONT     *
          *                                                         *
          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

          With the seizure of the bridge at Remagen and
          establishment of a bridgehead, we could see the end of the
          war approaching. Nevertheless, considerable fighting lay
          ahead. Despite riots in German cities and opposition feelers
          regarding peace, Hitler continued to have the loyalty of most
          German generals. With seven million men still under arms,
          he was not about to give up. When von Rundstedt advised
          him to end the war, Hitler fired him and brought Kesselring
          from Italy as his replacement.

          Despite lingering British misgivings, Eisenhower's broad front
          strategy continued to prevail. While Montgomery prepared for
          a major offensive in the north (PLUNDER), Bradley launched
          attacks to clean up German forces to the west of the Rhine.
          Furthermore, Eisenhower decided that, even though the
          Russians had paused at the Oder, he would not concentrate
          on taking Berlin. This decision came back to haunt
          Eisenhower later when the Grand Alliance collapsed into the
          Cold War. Historians are still quarreling over whether he did
          the right thing.

          To Eisenhower's relief, Churchill formally abandoned any
          idea of making Field Marshall Alexander a deputy to
          Eisenhower, rather than Air Chief Marshall Tedder.

          The stress of such quarrels and defeating the German
          offensive in the Ardennes left Eisenhower exhausted. His
          Chief of Staff, Lt. Gen. Walter Bedell Smith, persuaded him
          to take a holiday in Cannes. This provided an opportunity
          for leisurely talks with his generals and composing his
          differences with Bradley. Congressional approval of Bradley's
          fourth star helped. Furthermore, Eisenhower promised to
          return the 9th Army, which was then under Montgomery, to
          Bradley after all allied forces were across the Rhine.

          In the meantime, there was growing concern at SHAEF that
          Hitler was planning to continue the war from redoubts in
          Norway and the Alps. Plans were prepared for the invasion
          of Norway, which contemplated using Sweden as a base
          after the liberation of Denmark. The concern about a
          redoubt in the Alps gave an additional incentive to getting
          allied divisions across the Rhine on a broad front, to destroy
          German forces before they could move southward.

          Before this would be possible, however, it was necessary to
          capture the Saar. While the 4th Division infantry regiments
          were taking a well earned rest near Luneville, not far from
          Strasbourg, the 4th Division Artillery supported the 63rd
          Infantry Division in its attack just east of Saarbruecken. All
          I recall from this episode was standing on a hill and
          admiring the huge screen the artillery had created with
          smoke shells. During this period, there was time for letter
          writing. (In the early 1950s, I found myself the Saar desk
          officer in the State Department, responsible for foiling the ill
          advised efforts of the French to get the Saar away from
          Germany.)

          Dear Folks, March 16, 1945, Germany

          The mail has been very slow lately. One day soon it should
          catch up with us and a number of them should fall my way.
          In the meantime, I'm starting over on my correspondence.

          Writing is one of my best means of relaxation now. Wish I
          had a dollar for every word I've written in the past year.
          However, there is little to do other than read or write. Very
          little indeed.

          Sometimes I feel that I am wasting many valuable hours
          that will never be recovered. And there are many moments
          when I just sit and do nothing. But, our attention is
          demanded on a second's notice so often that it is impossible
          to concentrate on anything. Often I try to write or read and
          find that it makes me tense and uncomfortable. Such being
          the case, study is impossible.

          Thus I hope there is something enriching about this war
          that is unseen. For if there isn't, my time is wasted other
          than the little I might contribute toward winning. But
          perhaps the fates are not asking too much of me to demand
          a few years out of my existence. And certainly one cannot
          complain if this sacrifice is rewarded in being allowed to
          take advantage of a more profitable life in the future.

          My love, John

          Dear Folks, March 20, 1945, France

          A recent Stars and Stripes has an article about the 4th
          completing its 199th day of continuous contact with the
          enemy. That aught to establish some sort of record. It
          started with the 24th of August, 1944, the day before we
          entered Paris. It ended at Adenau, Germany, after a drive
          through the Siegfried Line, across the Prum and Kyll Rivers,
          and after Jerry until the German line there had completely
          collapsed.

          My travelogue has been broadened now to include new areas
          of France. Have seen Metz, Sarreguemines, Saarlautern and
          other cities. Each section of France in its own way has its
          particular beauty. Dad should know the territory I mention
          there, having been from Colmar to Luxembourg in 1918.

          He probably has noted also how close our drive through the
          Siegfried Line carried us to his path into Germany. Had we
          made the Remagen crossing, it would have been complete.

          Love, John

          Dear Dad, March 23, 1945, France

          Will the Germans fight energetically to resist us the east
          side of the Rhine? Upon this depends whether the war will
          last a month after we push, or through the summer. The
          answer is not available now and won't be until we push.
          Each step we take could be the last.

          But we are becoming angry. Perhaps the German should
          fight for his country. We would. But I hate to see all these
          men go down unnecessarily. It is such a pity.

          But we must be patient.

          Love, John

          I should underline my reference to our becoming angry. This
          was to influence our behavior once we crossed the Rhine. To
          put it bluntly, it took only minor resistance from a village
          for us to dump a great deal of artillery into it before the
          infantry attacked.

          END OF EXCERPTS FROM LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR
          Copyright John C. Ausland 1993

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 12:47:06 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: AIDs discussion

        Wow!  This has been some week!  This is my third official
admonition in as many days!  This discussion on AIDs has absolutely
nothing to do with WWII.  Keep it off the list.  Now.  Otherwise, I
may get *really* cranky.

        As a reminder, the other two warnings concerned discussing
Maplethorpe (which has subsided) and discussing grammar (which has
not subsided).  Continuing either of these discussions will turn me
into a *real* curmudgeon.

        While I have everyone's attention, I should also warn that
those legal beagles from Colorado, Cantor and Siegel, are spamming the
Internet once again and I have heard that they're targeting mailing
lists as well.  If they should hit this mailing list, please do not
follow up to their message TO THE MAILING LIST.  However, these people
are recalcitrant Internet abusers so feel free to flood their mailboxes
via private email.

        Thank you for reading this.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:01:37 -0800
From:    James Wilson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan

"Raid on Cabanatuan" - Soon to be a major motion picture

In commemoration of the 50-year anniversary of the end of World War II,
and the Liberation of the Philippines,  a motion picture treatment
(scenario) of a somewhat obscure, but compelling and accurate novel
based on the daring rescue of 516 survivors of the infamous Bataan Death
March from a Japanese POW camp at Cabanatuan, Philippines, is submitted
in episodes for your review.  I am a personal friend of the book's
author, who  has graciously allowed this information to be presented
selectively on the Internet.  The author, an ex-Army Officer,  spent six
years researching the Raid in meticulous detail, in the Philippines.

Please E-Mail me if interested in obtaining a copy of the book - and/or
scenario (bound, with pictures). This is a public service - not a
commercial solicitation.

The scenario will be presented in chronological order, a day at a time,
following the overview.

Stay tuned!

Jim Wilson
[email-masked]
Las Vegas, NV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:49:36 GMT
From:    Robert Edison <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Balloon Bombs and Unit 731

        This post is in response to the article on the Japanese Balloon
born bombs of WWII.  It also brings together some earlier material that
appeared in discussion of Japanese biological warfare as practiced by
Units 100, 731 and Tama.

        Recently, an article by Nicholas Kristof appeared in the Denver
Post of 17 March 1995 (a New York Times piece) which mentioned that the
Japanese had planned to drop biological agents from balloons and even to
use Kamikaze aircraft to dump plague-infected fleas over San Diego.
Robert Mikesh's book on Japanese Balloon Bomb attacks on North America
provides excellent details on the attacks and provides an estimate of the
carrying capacity of the balloons as 300 lbs at 30,000 feet, enough for
the transpacific voyage from Japan to the United States.  While Mikesh
says the balloons were used for incendiaries and the Japanese did not
consider them for biological delivery, the balloons could indeed carry one
or perhaps two of the 40kg (88 pound) HA bomb that Shiro Ishii's unit 731
had developed for dropping anthrax.  Kristof's article mentions use of the
balloons for biological agent delivery, and if anthrax had been used, it
could have caused severe problems for American farmers in the west and
possibly mid-west.  Mikesh estimates that some 1000 of the 9000 balloons
released made it to North America.  The use of plague infected fleas was
not new, as it had been used in China.  Newman in his book published in
1944, cites a Japanese aircraft which dropped rice and wheat grains mixed
with fleas over Chuhsien, Chekiang Province on 4 October 1940.  Within 38
days bubonic plage broke out in the city and lasted for 24 days resulting
in 21 deaths.  The rice had been used to attract rats, which were then
infested by the plague infected fleas.  The rats then infected the human
populace.  Later, during a airdrop by Japanese aircraft on 28 November
1940 over Kinwa, small whitish-yellow granules were found.  When brought
into contact with water, the granules swelled up, and when mixed in a test
tube released a milky suspension.  Examination of the granules  revealed
rod shaped bacteria of Bacillus Pestis, or bubonic plague which would
appear to be targeted against the civilian water supplies.

        Williams book on Unit 731 shows an aircraft used by Unit 731 in
Manchuria and over China.  It would appear to be a Kawasaki Type 88 Light
Bomber which was adapted from the Type 88-2 Reconnaissance aircraft.  The
planes were virtually the same and the photo does not provide a good view
of the two extra wing struts of the light bomber version.

        Harris's book does mention that while US examination of the
balloons found on US soil did not reveal any biological agents, Japanese
members of Unit 731 did provide a US official with a paper on their
"balloon project."  Harris book is an excellent reference work on the
activities on Unit 731 and 100.

        As an aside, much of the early material documenting the Soviet
charges or even Newman's book is extremely hard to find, almost as if they
had been deliberately removed from library book shelves.  When I was doing
some independent research on the subject at the Library of Congress, much
of the Soviet material was not on the shelf, and in one case, when I
requested a special search, the document was found, but catalogued with
another number.  Newman's book which I had borrowed from the Army Library
at the Pentagon, disappeared after I loaned it to a friend.  I did
relocate a copy at the Library of Congress as well as the West Point
library.  Anyway, just food for thought.

        Both Harris's book and Coox's book on Nomanhan mention Ishii's
water purification units or volunteers for sabotage training exercises
were active in the Nomanhan conflict.  The sabotage volunteers were active
in spreading BW materials among the civilian populace and amongst enemy
troops.

        Newman also postulates that the Japanese may have used biological
warfare in the conquest of the Philippines and against US forces on
Bataan.  He cites the inordinately high percentage (75%?) of US troops
with Malaria.

References:

_____, "Advocates of Plague," Current Digest of the Soviet Press, 1950
2(9), pp 28-29

_____, "Bring the War Criminals to Justice," New Times, 1950, 6(Feb 8), pp
3-5

_____, "Justice Demands International Trial of Japanese War Criminals,"
Information Bulletin, 1950, 10(4), pp 112-113; also Pravda Editorial of 4
Feb 1950

_____, "Trial of Former Japanese Soldiers charged with Preparing and Using
Bacteriological Weapons," Current Digest of the Soviet Press, 1950, 2(1),
pp 21-27

Coox, Alvin D., Nomonhan, Japan Against Russia, 1939, Stanford University,
Stanford, CA, 1985

Gunji, Yoko, Shogen 731 Ishii Butai, Tokuma Shoten, Tokyo, 1982

Gomer, Robert, John W. Powell, and Bert V.A. Roling, "Japan's Biological
Weapons: 1930-1945," Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, October 1981, pp
43-53

Jia, Daluo, "Diaries Revealed Details About Japan's Germ Warfare in
China," China News Daily, 1 January 1995 from Kyodo News Service of
12/30/94.

Kristof, Nicholas D., "Light Cast on Japan's Medical Atrocities," New York
Times (Denver Post), March 17, 1995, pp 2A

Materials on the Trial of Former Servicemen of the Japanese Army Charged
with Manufacturing and Employing Bacteriological Weapons, Foreign
Languages Publishing House, Moscow, 1950

Mayevsky, V., "Monstrous Crimes Committed by Japanese Barbarians,"
Information Bulletin, 1950, 10(3), pp 93

Mikesh, Robert C., Japan's World War II Balloon Bomb Attacks on North
America, Smithsonian, Washington, D.C., 1973

Mikesh, Robert C. & Shorzoe Abe, Japanese Aircraft 1910-1941, Naval
Institute Press, Annapolis, 1990

Morimura, Seiichi, Akuma no hoshoku, Banseisha, Tokyo, 1982

Morimura, Seiiti, Kukhnya Dyavola, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1983
(Russian translation of Morimura's book)

Newman, Barclay Moon, Japan's Secret Weapon, Current Publishing Co., 1944

Harris, Sheldon H.,  Factories of death : Japanese biological warfare,
1932-45, and the American cover-up, Routledge, New York, 1994

Powell, John W., "Japan's Germ Warfare - the US Cover-up of a War Crime,"
Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars," 1980, 12(4), pp 2-17

Raginskii, Mark, "Monstrous Atrocities of the Japanese Imperialists," New
Times, 1950(2), pp 3-7

Raginskii, Mark, "Khabarovskiy process nad japonskimi vrjennimi
presteysnikami," Sovetskoe Gosudarstvo I Pravo, 1950-51, 3, pp 8-25

Shimamura, Kyo, Sanzennin no seitai jikken, 1967

Shinso Ishii Saikinsen Butai, Tokuma Shoten, Tokyo, 1982

Takasugi, Shingo, 731-butai saikinsen no ishi o oe, Tokuma Shoten, Tokyo,
1982

Takasugi, Shingo, Nihon iryo no genzai.   1973

Williams, Peter and David Wallace, Unit 731: Japan's secret biological
warfare in World War II, Free Press, New York, 1989

Yamada, Seizaburo,  Saikinsen gunji saiban, 1974

Yoshinaga, Reiko,  Jintai jikken no kyofu, 1970

I am in digest mode, so it may take some time for me to generate
responses.

          Bob Edison
          [email-masked] (daytime)
          [email-masked] (evening)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:09:26 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

-deletions-

>      I believe the first people to be gassed at Auschwitz-
> Birkenau were 300 Polish and 700 Soviet prisoners of war.  Wasn't
> Auschwitz originally created as a concentration camp for Poles?

-deletions-

Lou,
I don't know if the above question was rhetorical or not, but just in
case you were wondering, yes, Auschwitz I was originally a camp for
Poles, and primarily remained that way. The first experiments with gas
were conducted there on prisoners in a prison "dungeon" hallway. I know
that the gas chamber that is at Auschwitz I today was constructed after
the war, but I can't remember if it was a reconstruction of one that was
blown, or if there never was one there. The main gas chambers and
cremetoria, of course, were at Auschwitz II, Birkenau, and they were
quite real. The above fact is often used by holocaust deniers (where they
can honestly tell naive listeners that "the gas chamber at Auschwitz was
constructed after the war," which is misleading but true.) I've gone on
enough. Hope this helps,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:56:04 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Doolittle's Raiders

Last night, I attended a lecture by Travis Hoover and Thomas Griffin
at the USAF museum at Wright Patterson AFB.  Hoover flew the second
B-25 of Doolittle's Raiders, while Griffin waas the navigator on the
9th aircraft to take off from Hornet.  Presuming that the overall
mission is well known to the listmembers, I thought I would instead
repeat a couple of the anecdotes the two related.  I take credit for
any mistakes or mis-interpretations.  These anecdotes are based on
a few quickly scribbled notes that I made during their talk.

>From Travis Hoover:

After takeoff, the flight from Hornet to Tokyo, while flying close to
the wavetops, was uneventful, allowing the crew time to reflect upon
the odds for their survival, which were not all that good.  Quote -
"This licked a little of the red off of our candy."

After landfall, Hoover remained at very low altitiude, about 50 feet
or so.  Following a road, they buzzed a number of bicyclists.  The
bicyclists assumed that the aircraft was Japanese and waved to them.

Intending to climb to 1500 feet to avoid the blast effect, Hoover
had only gotten to 900 feet before bombs away.  Debris from the
explosions rose higher than the aircraft.

Asked what techniques he'd used to stretch his fuel supply over the
China Sea, he replied that he'd leaned the engines out until they
coughed, then a little further until they gagged, then ran just a
little richer than that.

Almost completely out of fuel, and in near darkness and bad weather,
Hoover bellied in his B-25 into a Chinese rice paddy not far from the
shore line.  He remarked that it was the slickest, smoothest landing
that he'd made in his entire AF career.  His description was that it
was like landing on a soap bubble, with hardly a bump, sliding smoothly
to a stop.  Climbing out the hatch above his seat, Hoover jumped off
the aircraft knee-deep into the reason it was such a smooth landing,
the, uh... "night soil" that the Chinese routinely used to fertilize
their rice paddies.  He remarked that the the expression "slicker than
sh*t" was certainly tested and proven that day.

Hoover's crew attempted to destroy their aircraft with several small
thermite bombs.  The flight engineer placed one on top of the rubber
fuel bladder that had been installed in the aft fuselage in place of
the lower turret.  The bomb melted its way through the top and bottom
of the fuel bladder, through the aluminum skin underneath, and sank
into the paddy.  After another unsuccessful attempt in the bomb bay,
Hoover managed to flood the engines with gasoline using the booster
pump, and got the thermite bombs to ignite the gasoline and oil,
destroying the engines.

>From Tom Griffin:

Griffin's aircraft successfully bombed their assigned target, thought
at the time to be a tank factory.  They found out after the war that
they had delivered four 500 lb bombs to a facility of the Tokyo Gas
and Electric Company.

The earlier aircraft had achieved surprise, and bombed without any
significant opposition.  Being the ninth aircraft, the anti-aircraft
guns had begun firing at them by the time they arrived over Tokyo.
Since they were flying so low, the guns, situated on high ground,
were depressed below horizontal and were shooting down at them.

Griffin's aircraft managed to fly further into China than any of the
others.  They bailed out, again in darkness and bad weather, 300
miles into China.  He said his first indication that he was nearing
the ground was when a tree branch brushed his face.  His parachute
hung up in the tree with his feet just touching the ground, allowing
him to simply unbuckle his harness and walk away.

Asked about how Doolittle was allowed to go on the mission, considering
the morale loss should he be killed or captured, the two related this
story.  Doolittle was originally chosen to plan the mission and train
the crew.  He went to Washington to ask Hap Arnold for permission to
lead the mission.  Unwilling to tell him no, Arnold told him to also
get the permission of another general, whose office was nearby.  Upon
leaving Arnold's office, Doolittle ran as fast as he could to the
other general's office and just managed to secure his permission when
the phone rang.  It was Arnold, telling the other general to refuse
Doolittle permission to fly.

Asked how fast the aircraft were going at the end of Hornet's flight
deck, the two decided that the answer was about 80 knots of *airspeed*.
Since the carrier was turned into the wind and was steaming at maximum
speed, there was about 55 knots of airspeed already over the deck, so
the aircraft's speed relative to the flight deck was only about 35
knots, or about 40 miles per hour.

The final lecture in the 1994-95 series will be on 19 April.  The
speaker will be Charles Sweeney, the pilot of the B-29 "Bock's Car" when
it dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki.  The museum's doors re-open
for the lecture at 6:30 PM, with the lecture beginning an hour later
at 7:30.  The lecture is free and open to the public.  If anyone else
of the list plans to attend, drop me an email note and maybe we can
get together.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:12:08 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: AIDs discussion

>        Wow!  This has been some week!  This is my third official
>admonition in as many days!  This discussion on AIDs has absolutely
>nothing to do with WWII.  Keep it off the list.  Now.  Otherwise, I
>may get *really* cranky.

YO JOE!

Happy first anniversary! Hope ya don't stay cranky wid us dudes.

IMHO you'se doing a great job. KUTGW!

                                                        :-)Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:01:03 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Copenhagen Gestapo Raid

>From the DoD Newswire 22 March 1995

:VETERANS MARK ANNIVERSARY OF DENMARK BOMBING

     COPENHAGEN, March 21 - Veteran resistance fighters and
servicemen held ceremonies on Tuesday to mark the 50th anniversary of
a British bombing raid on Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen, a daring
attack which turned into tragedy.
     On the morning of March 21, 1945, six weeks before the liberation
of Denmark from five years of German occupation, British Royal Air
Force (RAF) planes destroyed the Nazi secret police building in
central Copenhagen.
     But the raid cost the lives of scores of innocent people,
including 86 pupils at a convent school, and became Denmark's worst
civilian disaster of World War Two. The school site was one of the
places where Tuesday's commmemorations were held.
     "It was absolutely necessary to carry out the action as we knew
the Gestapo were about to gain key knowledge about the operation of
the Danish resistance movement," said resistance leader Ole Lippmann,
who asked the RAF to make the raid.
     The attack was carried out by 48 planes in three groups, flying
at low height to avoid radar detection. One of the bombers crashed
beside a French convent school in a nearby district.
     The final wave of aircraft, seeing smoke billow from the crash,
believed it was the target and dropped their bombs there.
     They killed 99 civilians, including the 86 schoolchildren.
     "It was an appalling disaster that the French school was bombed,"
Lippmann told Danish Radio. "The warplanes were coming in so fast they
had no way of knowing they were bombing the wrong target."
     "It was a tragedy but what can you do? We knocked out the Gestapo
headquarters and a lot of schoolchildren paid the bill," RAF
Wing-Commander Edward Sismore, who took part in the raid and the
commemorations, told the newspaper Politiken.
     Five of the RAF planes were shot down and nine British airmen
were killed. Twenty Danes held in the Gestapo headquarters and 70
Germans were also killed.
     Memorial ceremonies were held at the school site, Copenhagen's
Roman Catholic Cathedral, a war cemetery and other locations.
     Neutral Denmark was occupied by the Nazis in 1940 without a
struggle and the government initially advocated a policy of peaceful
co-existence with the Germans.
     But German rule became more harsh. In 1943 the resistance
movement, aided by Britain, began openly defying the Nazis, staging an
increasing number of acts of sabotage.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:03:05 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust

>                                                            ..... I know
> that the gas chamber that is at Auschwitz I today was constructed after
> the war, but I can't remember if it was a reconstruction of one that was
> blown, or if there never was one there.

Hi David,

If I may provide some details on this issue, I was fortunate to get
the complete story from Dr. Keren on Ken McVay's Holocaust list in
Canada a couple years back.  The gas chamber that is on display
currently at Auschwitz was in 1941 a homocidal gas chamber.  It was a
test unit to verify the feasability of gassing people and used carbon
monoxide at first.

After the tests and the construction of the Kremas at Birkenau the
small chamber at Auschwitz I was converted to an air raid shelter and
remained that way till the end of the war.  As such the Germans saw no
reason to destroy it as they did the Kremas so it survived.  Stalin,
later in the 1950s ordered it converted back into a gas chamber to
show visitors how the Nazis did business {never mind how Papa Joe did
business}.

It was this point that got revisionist author David Irving fined
10,000 DM by German courts for Insulting the Memory of the Dead when
he called the Gas Chamber at Auschwitz an "Attrappen" (mock up).  When
Irving appealed the case the next judge agreed that the fine was not
appropriate and bumped it to 30,000 DM!!! {Just when you thought
justice was dead} :-D

>        .... The above fact is often used by holocaust deniers (where they
> can honestly tell naive listeners that "the gas chamber at Auschwitz was
> constructed after the war," which is misleading but true.) I've gone on
> enough.  Hope this helps,
> David Rising

This is the very point I was making that the deniers use half truths
in furthering their platform.  We have gone on enough when the hate is
gone and the light of truth banishes the shadow of half truth.  Keep
up the good work, David!  It always helps!

Best Regards, Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:59:15 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Canada War Criminal

>From the DoD Newswire 22 March 1995

=====

:CANADA MOVES TO DEPORT MAN ACCUSED OF WAR CRIMES

     TORONTO, March 21 - Canada has launched court
proceedings to deport a man in his 80s accused of being part of a Nazi
unit that executed Jews in German-occupied Latvia during World War
Two, a government official said on Tuesday.
     The government filed for a hearing in a federal court on Monday
seeking to strip Erichs Tobiass of Toronto of his Canadian citizenship
on grounds he misrepresented himself in entering the country after the
war.
     "The purpose is to revoke his citizenship," Roger White, a
spokesman for the Canadian Immigration Department in Ottawa, said.
     In a move hailed by Jewish groups, Canada announced this year it
was launching a new effort to bring suspected war criminals to justice
by deporting 12 people who had lied about their past to obtain
citizenship.
     The government said Tobiass is the first of four suspected war
criminals it will move to deport immediately.

=======

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:00:56 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>Julian,
>
>Thanks for doing some exploring to track dowin access to the WWII
>photos at the National Archives.  I had found the site while exploring
>the NARA resources last week and had copied down the address that
>Netscape showed for that spot, but I didn't try to get back in using
>only the address.
>
>Sorry for any inconvenience I caused.

Not a problem, not in the least. It was actually a good thing, as there's a
bunch of neat stuff to look in those Archives which I never would have
discovered otherwise. I spent a couple of hours last night looking at many
of the WWII photos, and feeling some of the anguish of the subjects, and
once again feeling grateful to my father's generation for saving the world
from that.

-----
Windows 96 == Macintosh 85

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:36:20 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:V1s and V2s

>From the DoD Newswire 23 March 1995

:FLYING BOMBS NEARLY BROKE GRITTY LONDONERS' WARTIME SPIRIT

     LONDON, March 22 - A sound like a motorcycle roaring
overhead was so commonplace in London 50 years ago that hardly anyone
bothered to look up.
     When the noise cut out, the silence caused panic in the streets
and warned Londoners death might be imminent.
     In the closing stages of World War Two, as British forces fought
their way across northern Europe, Germany tried to break the spirit of
families left in England with their weapons of vengeance: the V1 and
V2 flying bombs.
     Packed with 2,000 pounds (900 kg) of explosive, the pilotless
missiles caused more casualties and damage than the "blitz" bombing of
1940 and 1941.
     The advent of the V2 bomb -- the first rocket to break the sound
barrier -- had a crippling effect on morale and caused consternation
in the war cabinet of Winston Churchill.
     "The people have had nearly five years of war strain -- they will
resent this new trouble increasingly and want to know what we are
doing about it," Home Secretary (interior minister) Herbert Morrison
said in June 1944.
     "I have done and will do everything to hold up their courage and
spirit -- but there is a limit and the limit will come."
     Germany had been working on "Vergeltungswaffen" (weapons of
vengeance) since the early 1930s but the missiles became a top
priority only in 1943. The first V1 was launched against Britain on
June 13, 1944, from the French coastal region near Calais.
     The government, which had been expecting some kind of flying bomb
offensive, dismissed the opening salvo. "The mountain hath groaned and
brought forth a mouse," one minister reported.
     Two days later 200 missiles were launched in 24 hours and the
second Battle of Britain had begun in earnest. By the time a V2 killed
the last civilian in Britain on March 27, 1945, 8,958 people had died
and 24,504 had been injured in attacks.
     Survivors' memories of Hellfire Corner, the area around London
targeted by the bombs, focus on the noise of the V1s, nicknamed
"doodlebugs," and the terrifying silence of the V2s, or "Big Bens."
     "There are two schools of thought. One says the V1 was the real
horror because you could hear it coming whereas the V2 killed you in
bed. Others said with the V1s you had a chance, while the V2 sank all
hope," says historian Philip Ziegler.
     No one who heard a doodlebug's engine stop will ever forget the
deafening silence which preceded the explosion.
     Vera Brown, a young girl in 1945, had been taught by her mother
to count to 10 when she heard the engine of a V1 cut out.
     "I ran down an alley looking for somewhere to hide and saw a
woman in her front door. The doodlebug hit two streets away and the
woman and I were blown through the door, down the passageway and ended
up in a pile in the kitchen," Brown said.
     Britain's defence was the courage of fighter airmen, who tried to
fly alongside the bombs and tip them off course.
     More than 9,200 V1s were launched and 4,300 were destroyed on the
way. But the ones that got through caused carnage.
     On June 18, 1944, a V1 hit the chapel of London's Wellington
Barracks during a Sunday morning service, killing 58 people, including
the commanding officer of the Scots Guards.
     People began to doubt the government could stop the bombardment.
Many left London, sent their children away or slept underground, just
like during the blitz.
     Worse was to come in the form of the V2, packed with high
explosive and with a greater range than its predecessor.
     The first V2 hit without warning on September 8 in Chiswick, west
London. Residents heard a double bang, one from the rocket breaking
the sound barrier; a second from the explosion.
     Churchill's ministers kept silent about the new threat for weeks,
unofficially blaming the deadly explosions on gas leaks. The public
christened the V2s "flying gas mains."
     Only in November, as the allies began to overrun the V1 launching
sites, did Churchill admit the Germans had a secret weapon that
Britain could not effectively combat. Later that month a V2 hit a
store in New Cross, south-east London, killing nearly 200 people in
the worst incident of the V-bomb campaign.
     But the allied advance across Europe gradually wiped out the V1
batteries and forced the V2 launchers to move out of range. The last
V2 was launched from the Hague in the Netherlands on March 27,
crashing in Orpington, south-east of London.
     "We didn't hear the rocket coming so we didn't know a thing until
it hit," said Evelyn Driscoll. "I severed an artery in my temple and
there was blood everywhere. We were unlucky to get the last one having
gone through six years of war just fine."
     More unlucky was Ivy Millichamp, the last civilian to be killed
in Britain by enemy action. She had narrowly missed death by a V1 two
months earlier but was killed in Orpington.
     The last V1, launched from near Delft in the Netherlands landed
harmlessly in Britain on March 29. "The lights went out and the bombs
came down. But every man, woman and child in the country had not
thought of quitting the struggle. London can take it," Churchill said
on May 8, as the war ended.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:31:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Danny!

I guess I am your man. I corresponded personally with Mohnke, who is
still alive as far as I know.

What were you needing about him?

In particular, I am
> looking for anyone who has information on Gen. Wilhelm Mohnke,
> the last general to have seen Hitler alive and the commander
> of the 1st SS Panzer Division during the Ardennes operation.
> Evidently he still lives in Barsbuttal near Hamburg. Also, I
> am looking for anyone with information about Jochen Peiper's
> death in the summer of 1976 when he was killed by assassins
> unknown near Traves, France.

    I have some info on Peiper's untimely death.

    How can I help?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:37:33 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Swastikas over Elbrus?

Hello, Brad!

Sorry for butting in, but you might consult Paul Carrel's book

Scorched Earth: The War on the Eastern Front, 1942-1944. There is a
detailed account of it.

Hope this helps.

Terry

>         I noted with interest your post mentioning a photo of Germans
> raising the swastika banner over Mt Elbrus.  Do you have a source
> for that?

    I have seen the same pic, and I think I saw it  Carrel's
pictorial history of the war on the Russian Front. The name escapes
me for the moment. I think it is called Barbarossa, but I may be
mistaken.

    Hope this helps somewhat.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:18:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hello, All!

I haven't had time to ponder the points of the sought for opinions,
but I would like add a clarification here.

> > > Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> > > rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
> > you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin

    Yes. However, Zyklon B was originally used and marketed as a
cattle disinfectant. It was the firm of I.G. Farben with headquarters
in Frankfurt am Main that manufactured and marketed this product.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:23:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hello, Alan!

    Would like to comment on your post.

> Hi Bill,... I liked it, but I am no authority. One fact which I think
> might be worth including is that which I learned from a PBS documentary
> the other night: that there were over 300 of these camps throughout
> Germany and captured Poland.  300 !  It puts it into scale. It certainly
> must've been an obvious thing to the German people. It isn't concievable
> how they remained oblivious to over 300 camps.

    There were 30 major camps with many subidiary holding camps which
fed the larger ones. The reason for this was not to overload the
system, hard as that may seem. Dachau, for example, had 30 subsidiary
camps located within a 75 mile radius of the place. This system
applied to the majority, but one such as Treblinka existed only to
exterminate the survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, and once that was
accomplished, the camp was destroyed.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:50:08 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

In message Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:18:28 CCS,
  Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>  writes:

> Well, we are on the subject now :-)
>
> Does anyone of you have any information about the battleships with
> hull numbers between BB-47 and BB-54 ? I believe they were cancelled
> or scrapped, but just can't get any info on them (names, fate, etc).
>
> Thanks in advance for your answers,
>
> Jorge Merino
>

Jorge:

BB 47 USS Washington (Maryland Class - not completed)
BB 48 USS West Virginia (Maryland Class - completed)

BB 49 USS South Dakota (cancelled)
BB 50 USS Indiana (cancelled)
BB 51 USS Montana (cancelled)
BB 52 USS North Carolina (cancelled)
BB 53 USS Iowa (cancelled)
BB 54 USS Massachusetts (Cancelled)

BB 49 to 54 were the South Dakota class that were cancelled as a result of
the Washington Treaty.  As designed they would have carried 12 16" guns, 16
6" guns and 6 3" AA guns.

Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: [email-masked])
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:15:29 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

That "unknown sailor kissing the girl in Times Square on V-J Day..."

        The sailor was traced and identified a few years ago. I seem
to remember him being interviewed on TV at the time.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:50:02 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS Colorado (BB-45)

In message Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:06:12 CCS,
  Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>  writes:

> Hi Gerald,
>
> I'm sorry I can't help much on the Colorado (BB-45), but I can tell you
> some little things about it.
>
> USS Colorado (BB-45) was one of the two California class battleships,
> built just shortly after WWI. The other was USS California (BB-44).
> They were modernized in the 20s, 30s, and early 40s, to find action
> by 1944, I believe. Modernization may have included removal of the
> primitive cage masts and replacement by tripod masts by early 30s.
> I can't confirm this, but the catapults may have been modernized in
> early 40s to adapt them for the Vought OS2U Kingfisher.
> I believe both battleships were sold for scrap in July 1959, but I
> can't confirm this now.

Jorge:

Actually it was a member of the Maryland Class and sister to the Maryland
and West Virginia.  Laid down May 29, 1919, launched March 22, 1921 and
completed August 30, 1923.

>
> About technical details, I believe they were about 33000 tons, with
> 21 knots speed. I guess their armament was composed by 12 x 14 inch
> guns in four turrets (like the Pennsylvania class).

Armament (as built) 8 16in L/45 guns, 12 5in/51 & 8 3in AA.  The 3in guns
were replaced by 5"/25 guns in 1928/29.

Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: [email-masked])
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:36:54 -0600
From:    Rick Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hitler's Uniform On Display

>
> There was a Hitler flying suit on display at a small museum in Union, IL
> several years back.  It was captured by an American vet and was deemed
> authentic.  This was in the 85-88 time frame.  We used to do a
> reenactment up there once a year on memorial day until the museum got
> stingy and people got mad at them with the type of food they were
> serving us.
>
> The Museum is Called 7 Acres and is located just outside Union, IL which
> is 45 minutes to an hour west of Chicago--in between Chicago and
> Rockford.  I have not heard if it is still there.
>
If this is the same place, it still exists today.  It is currently called
Antique Village and is located in Union, IL.  Near Marengo, and close to the
Intersection of I-90 and IL-20.  There is a small but good assortment of
WW-I, WW-II and other historical items there.  It's only about 20 minutes
from my home, so I could probably obtain more info if there is any interest.

Toujours Pret!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:06:52 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

The earliest documented case of AIDS occurred in England (Birmingham,
I think) in 1959. The earliest documented case in the United States
was in St. Louis around 1967. The technology that might have been
used to produce an AIDS type disease did not exist before the late
1970s, and it is doubtful that something as sophisticated as this
virus, with its incredible adaptability, could be manufactured
at all, even today. So much for the time frame.

Note to Joe Barone: I realize this is WAY off list, but I think this
is the kind of story that has to be scotched when- and wherever it
appears. I won't engage in discussions on the issue on-list, but would
like to be able to present facts that refute obvious nonsense should
it come up.

Thanks,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:18:44 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

Hmmmmm. As Italy was defeated in 1943, could 7 May 45 be considered
"Victory over the Wehrmacht" Day? And if VW Day is valid, would
Detroit, Honda/Nissan et al, Janis Joplin and the Beemer boys demand
equal time?

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:21:06 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Bill,
   Good article.  As some said, a good introduction to those who don't
know too much.  Here are some of my comments:

In one paragraph, "With his twisted world view and his skill as an orator,
Hitler..." you wrote about the Stab in the Back myth.  While I am not
going to deny that this was a factor in his and the Nazi rise to power,
it grossly simplifies things.  It is, I think, wrong to pin Hitler's
success merely to anti-semitism.  Economic conditions, the weak Weimar
government, and of course the harsh Versailles Treaty were other reasons
that people voted for Hitler and the Nazis.  We have had several discussions
on the list about the extent in which the German people were responsible
for Hitler.  Whatever you may think about German complicity, the decisive
event in the seizure of power was the appointment of Hitler by Hindenburg;
and Hitler was not appointed because of his anti-Semitism.

   The Einsatzgruppen did more than kill Jews.  Their mission was essentially
to secure the occupied territories against "Jews, partisans, and potential
enemies of the Reich".  I think they killed people in many other ways
besides anti-tank ditches.  How about those worthless gas trucks?

If you don't mind, I'd just like to comment about one section, though
this is not a criticism on your article.  I realize that it can only
be so long - as you know, each sentence alone is worthy of a book.  So
this is just something for you to think about.

The Nurenburg Laws are infamous and are held up by most historians as
proof that the Germans were going to be exterminating the Jews.  However,
it seems that this is not entirely correct.  After the Seizure of Power,
there were three power bases or ideologies: the conservatives who didn't
dislike the Nazis but sought to control them; these persons were very
legal minded and order-oriented.  Then there were the silent revolutionairies
such as Himmler that wanted to overthrow the old Prussian conservative caste
but sought to do so by subtle methods and not by antogonizing Hitler (who
needed conservative support).  Then there were the radical revolutionairies,
who wanted a "Second Revolution" to sweep away the old order.  This was
lead by Roehm and was, as most people know, stamped out by the other two
factions in the Night of the Long Knives.

I believe the Nurenberg laws were an attempt by the conservative group to
actually help the Jews, or at least restrain the Himmler faction.  Beforehand,
both the SS and the SA were thought of as uncontrollable and anarchic.  This
very much upset the legal and propietary nature of the Reich Ministries of
Justice and the Interior.  Imagine what would have happened if the laws
were not passed: the SS and the SA would have been able to persecute Jews
and others at random.  By placing their actions under a legal umbrella,
the two ministries had something of a say in what went on.  This, at least,
was their thought.  In the end, Himmler prevailed and the Nurenberg laws
played into his hands rather than against them.

Good luck,
William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:05:22 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: PT Boat info request and prospective member.

Forwarded message:
> From [email-masked] Fri Mar 24 07:55 CST 1995
> Date:         Fri, 24 Mar 95 08:48:45 EST
> From: Ralph Fasano <[email-masked]>
> Subject:      WWII-L info
> To: Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
>
Hi Lou- I've read your posts on SOVHIST-L with great interest. You always have
something interesting and informative to say. I decided to write to you for
2 reasons: 1. how can I subscribe to the WWII-List?  and 2. I'm writing a
paper about the Herreshoff Mfg. Co. of Bristol, RI. They manufactured many of
America's Cup defenders late in the last century and on into the 1930's. During
WWII however, they went into war production, making PT boats and APC'c. It is
my understanding that ALL of the PT's went to Russia as part of Lend-Lease.
How might I find out what happened to them and how they were used once they
were turned over to the Soviets?
Ralph Fasano   [email-masked]

I've told Ralph how to join.  Is there anyone better able to help him
  on the PT boats?  Isn't there a new Maritime/Naval History list up
  and running somewhere?

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:47:34 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PT Boat info request and prospective member.

>I've told Ralph how to join.  Is there anyone better able to help him
>  on the PT boats?  Isn't there a new Maritime/Naval History list up
>  and running somewhere?

If there is please post this information.
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
[email-masked]
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 18:48:56 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

You wrote:

>
>>There is a collection of ca. 200 WWII photos in a collection called
>>"Pictures of World War II" at the National Archives.  The www site is
>>http://gopher.nara.gov:70/Oh/inform/dc/audvis/still/ww2photo.html
>>
>
>I tried to hit this server several times but I got a 403 code - Access
>denied or file does not exist.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Ron,

I was in part of this collection yesterday.  Try going in at the
gopher.nara.gov level, and work your way down.  The server may have been
down for a time.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 18:57:24 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Mike,

How about putting copies of the images on a Web Server so the rest of
the 'net community could view them?

Ed Kettler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 19:29:40 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>>Thanks for doing some exploring to track dowin access to the WWII
>>photos at the National Archives.  I had found the site while exploring
>>the NARA resources last week and had copied down the address that
>>Netscape showed for that spot, but I didn't try to get back in using
>>only the address.
>>
>>Sorry for any inconvenience I caused.
>
>Not a problem, not in the least. It was actually a good thing, as there's a
>bunch of neat stuff to look in those Archives which I never would have
>discovered otherwise. I spent a couple of hours last night looking at many
>of the WWII photos, and feeling some of the anguish of the subjects, and
>once again feeling grateful to my father's generation for saving the world
>from that.

Apology to the list members. I meant that reply for Terry but forgot to
click the proper button.

-----
Windows 96 == Macintosh 85

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 19:40:05 -0800
From:    Steve New <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Greenland P-38's

You wrote:

>
>Steve - can you repost the WWW site with the P-38 restoration site
pictures. TIA
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>Ron Babuka
>Cornell University
>CIT - Information Resources
>Ithaca, New York 14850
>(607) 254-6492
>
>Fax: 607-254-6404
>http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html
>
>
Ron,

The pictures are currently at:

        FTP:
        hepnrc.hep.net in /history/ww2/p38

        WWW:
        http://hepnrc.hep.net/ftp/history/ww2/p38/

They will soon be available at:

        WWW:
        http://quokka.cc.uq.oz.au/www/glacier-girl/home.html

--

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:48:24 -0600
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN USS Ward & Midget Sub

Continuing the thread about the sinking of the midget sub.  I once
learned that upon sinking the sub the skipper of the Ward sent the following
message to Operations at Pearl.  "Sighted sub, sank same."  The key word
in this message was "sighted".  As I understand it, there had been several
possible submarine contacts reported over the last few days.  None of
these had been confirmed as being submarines and a couple of
them had proven to be something else.  Some had resulted in
depth charge attacks taking place, but no indication of a sub being
destroyed.

Because of this the Captain of the Ward intended wording his
message to indicate the fact that this referred to a sub that had been
sighted visually, and verified.  None of this Sonar stuff which he felt
wasn't being taken too seriously back at Pearl.

His hope was the Operations officer at Pearl would pick up on this
immediately.

Unfortunately it just didn't happen.

I'm sorry I don't have any sources to quote on this, just my swiss cheese
memory.  The message however "Sighted sub, sank same" is one that was
well known, and quoted occasionally by us ASW types, when I was in the Navy in
the late 50s.

Maybe some of you can either confirm or refute this.

+==============================+=============================================+
| DAN COX                      | "I have made this letter longer than usual, |
| REPUBLIC, MO                 | only because I have not had the time to     |
| [email-masked] | make it shorter."--Blaise Pascal            |
+==============================+=============================================+

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 22:33:38 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Soviet Tactical Practices:  James Sulzen *and* Tobias v.G.

James Sulzen:

Look in:

1. VOENNO ISTORICHESKI ZHURNAL
         Tobias v.G., take note!
  Incidentally!  Its best articles have been translated into
English -- or American, anyway  :-) -- and distributed via the
U.S. Federal (documents) depository system to your research
library.  Look for JPRS translations ... PrEx3.10: ... something.

2. SOVIET MILITARY REVIEW often featured small unit actions
  from The Great Patriotic War.  Detailed information was
  secondary, but now and then you find something fairly
  descriptive ... like on the siege of Brest, June-July 1941.

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 23 Mar 1995 to 24 Mar 1995
*************************************************