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Status: O

There are 33 messages totalling 1420 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. QUERY: Women's WWII Literature (2)
  2. INF: USN Chronology 03-02-95
  3. Col. Bates
  4. Patton biography (5)
  5. Richard I.Bong (3)
  6. MEDIA:WWII Truck Found
  7. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
  8. endlossung/Germans or Nazis? (2)
  9. China/Japan part 7
 10. Re2: A-bomb spies
 11. Info on USN Battle Stars (2)
 12. B-29 sans defensive weapons (2)
 13. Nissen  and Quonset Huts
 14. INF: Tokyo RAid and Chinese casualties
 15. MEDIA:Col. Bates Dies
 16. The Ursel rocket launcher (not much though)
 17. Jim Irwin
 18. [INF] USAAF 3 MAR 45
 19. Bio: Richard Ira Bong (2)
 20. INFO ON USN BATTLE STA
 21. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-MAR-1945
 22. A-bomb spies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Mar 1995 23:55:47 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: QUERY: Women's WWII Literature

Marguerite (Margaret) Higgins comes to mind as a fine war correspondent.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 04:00:14 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-02-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/02 Fri. Cruiser and destroyer task group (Rear Adm. F. E. M.
           Whiting) bombards Japanese positions on Okino Daito
           Jima, Ryukyu Islands.
           Destroyers bombard enemy on Parece Vela Reef in the
           Philippine Sea.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Iwo Jima area:
             Attack cargo ship STOKES (AKA-68), LST 224,
              LST 247, LST 634, by collision,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
             LST 642, by grounding,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:05:57 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: Col. Bates

Does anyone know the specifics about the court marshalls mentioned in the Col.
Bates obit?

Also, the Stalag Luft III survivor I mentioned yesterday was named Pollock.



Thanks,

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:21:05 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Hello, Richard!

Here goes with the Patton bios I possess.

The Last Days of Patton by Ladislas Farago
George Patton-General in Spurs by Alden Hatch
War as I Knew it by General George Patton
Patton:Ordeal and Triumph by Ladislas Farago
Portrait of Patton by Harry H. Semmes
Lucky Forward by Colonel Robert S. Allen
Patton by Charles Whiting
The Patton Papers by Martin Blumensen 1885-1940
 "   "      "      "  "       "       1940-1945

 Hope this has been of help.

 Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 08:48:30 -0500
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Has anybody been to the Patton Museum at Fort Knox?
A report would be appreciated.

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:08:46 GMT+6
From:    Esaul Zermeno Bautista <EZERMENO@DPED.DPED.UAA.MX>
Subject: Re: Richard I.Bong

    Hello everybody !!


         I want to thank you all for  helped me

         giving me information.


         Esaul Alfredo.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:46:31 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:WWII Truck Found

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, James E Irwin wrote:

> >From the DoD Newswire 27 February 1995
>
> =====
>
> :EGYPTIAN ARMY FINDS WORLD WAR TWO TRUCK IN DESERT
>
>     CAIRO, Feb 26 - The Egyptian army has recovered a World
> War Two supply truck lost in the Western Desert more than 50 years
> ago, Al-Hayat newspaper reported on Sunday.
>      The vehicle, which had belonged to the British-led Allies, was
> more than 2,000 km (1,300 miles) from the town of Al-Alamein where the
> Allies fought a major tank battle with German forces in 1942.
>      The truck was loaded with gas containers, milk produced in 1941,
> bullets, oil and other supplies, and was spotted by an Egyptian
> military aircraft on a routine patrol, officials told the newspaper.
>      Egyptian army mechanics said the vehicle was in good condition
> and they had been able to fix its engine and tyres.
>
And what about the drivers/crew?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:21:09 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Revision: 1 February 1995
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Just some minor corrections and additions.  - Joe]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  My name is
Joe Barone and I am the listowner.  I can be reached at m1b@ssd.ray.com.

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
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        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
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        Threads have been known to mutate so that the Subject: line no longer
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        Since messages may arrive at sites out of order, it's always a good
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        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
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        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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//      JOB Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
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search WEAP: in WWII-L
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Several members of the list provide daily updates of events that
occurred 50 years ago.  Much of this information is archived.  Below are
the addresses for retrieving archives of this information and much more.

WWII-L ARCHIVES:
  1. ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu in directory WWII_L

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES is archived at two sites:

  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory /pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in
        /pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology

50 YEARS AGO TODAY is archived at:

  1. ftp.netcom.com, in directory /pub/jbd/www

50 YEARS AGO OF NAVAL ACTIVITIES and other historical goodies:

  1. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory /pub/history and all subdirectories

        To access these archives using ftp, connect to the desired system,
enter "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, then enter your Internet mail
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directories.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Copyright issues are a major problem on the Internet.  As far as
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material to be reproduced only if it is done free of charge and is not
altered in any form unless, of course, the owner has other requirements
that would supercede this policy.

        This is my first draft so I would appreciate any feedback from
members.  My intent is to prevent people from acquiring gain, finanical
or otherwise, from information that appears on this list without getting
the consent from the authors of that information.  If anyone can word
this intent better than I did above, I would like to hear from you.
Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish
the job. :-)  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 23:20:02 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Kelvin Brent Luther wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Alex Bielakowski wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, William Lippert wrote:
> >
> >    I don't think that the camps were German because they were administered
> > by many other Europeans.  Nazi is probably a more accurate description.
> > If you want to tie Nazism with Germanism that's acceptable, but to stretch
> > the camps to sole Germanship ownership, administration, and responsibility
> > ignores what many other Europeans (Austrians, Poles, Estonians, etc.) did
> > to contribute to the Holocaust.
> >
> > At the risk of starting a flame-war, I have to take exception with the
> > mention of the Poles as having played a part in the Holocaust.  Over
> > one million Polish Catholics were killed by the Germans during WWII, not
> > to mention the undetermined number that were murdered by the Soviets.
> > Auschwitz and other concentration camps had there share of Polish
> > Catholics as well as Polish Jews (Dr. Jozef Garlinski, a former prisoner
> > at Auschwitz,has written an excellent book on the subject _FIGHTING
> > AUSCHWITZ_).  The Poles were the only ethnic group in Europe not to
> > supply the Germans with soldiers (that excludes those Poles who were
> > forced into the German Army, because they did so unwillingly and never
> > served in "Polish" units).  Finally, need I remind anyone of the actions
> > surrounding the death of St. Maximilian Kolbe at Auschwitz.
> >      I do not, for a minute, deny that some individual Poles may have
> > participated in the Holocaust.  It seems ironic to me, however, that one
> > often hears more about Polish "anti-semitism", than the anti-Semitic
> > policies of the collaborationist Vichy government, or Mussolini's Italy,
> > or Franco's Spain, or the Croats, Lithunians, Ukrainians, or Russians.
> > My point is that almost every ethnic group in Europe has been accused of
> > anti-Semitism, but the Poles were the only ethnic group not to willingly
> > participate in the Holocaust by collaborating with the Germans or by
> > willingly contributing to the German war effort.
> >      While the French were collaborating with the Germans, the Poles
> > represented the fourth largest Allied army in Western Europe (after the
> > U.S., U.K., and Canadians).  Likwise, the Polish Home Army was at least
> > three times larger than the French Maquis, but most of the space in the
> > history books devoted to resistence has been given to the French.  Ok,
> > I'm sure that those are enough examples to get me in quite a bit of
> > trouble.  Just my two cents!
> >
> > Alex Bielakowski
> >
>         I don't any major disagreements with what you said, but I do feel
> that the Poles along with the Ukrainians were some of the most
> anti-semitic people in Europe.  Much of this stems from their long period
> of being ruled by the Austrians and the Hungarians.  In the Austrian
> Empire the Germans and then Hungarians were obviously the most favored
> groups.  The Poles and Ukrainians were at the bottom and the Jews were
> the middle men taking care of most of the busines end, collecting rent
> etc.  There was and still is a huge resentment of the Jews based on
> this.  Today there are a miniscule amount of Jews in Poland yet whenever
> there is mention of something bad economically someone will blame them.
>         Finally, the only country not to contribute to the holocaust was
> Bulgaria.  They refused to export their Jewish population to Poland, and
> were the only European country in the German domain to see a war time
> increase in their Jewish population.  It was possible for people to
> resist collaborating with the holocaust and your right, France deserves
> to be exposed for their unparalleled amount of collaboration.
>                         Kelvin Luther
>
Implicitly the question is, could you be an anti-Nazi/anti-German and
still be an antisemite?  I think the Poles managed.  In pre-WWII Poland
jewish university students were not allowed to sit (they had to stand) in
the lecture halls.  Poles did not exactly support the resistance in the
Warsaw Ghetto.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:10:34 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: China/Japan part 7

        I promised I'd return to China in my next post.  I neglected to mention
that I would be travelling there by way of Indonesia and Burma.
        Just to tie up loose ends from my last post, the fall of Java was a
foregone conclusion after the destruction of the Allied naval and air forces in
the region (of 111 US aircraft rushed to Indonesia in early '42, only 23
bombers and a handfull of P-40's remained by the last week of February; British
Hurricanes based on Java suffered similar attrition).  The Japanese amphibious
landings also took the form of a pincer movement, with the main force of
Imamura's 16th Army landing on the western tip of the island near Batavia,
while a somewhat smaller force came ashore further east.  The landings were
carried out on March 1st, Batavia fell the next day, and the Dutch command on
the island surrendered a week after that (Admiral Helfrich and the senior
British and American commanders were flown out first).  Once the Japanese were
ashore there was little hope of successfully opposing them, for the Dutch
ground forces on Java were not only outnumbered and outgunned, but they could
hardly even be called Dutch.   The bulk of the rank and file was composed of
native Indonesians, and the majority of these had no love for their Dutch
colonial masters.  In fact, the Japanese were subsequently able to find some
33,000 volunteers for their own native "Java Defense Force," disposed in 66
battalions of about 500 men each to supplement the inadequate Japanese forces
in defending the large island against possible Allied invasion.  On Bali, which
I mentioned earlier as particularly friendly to the Japanese, another 1,500
volunteers took over most of the garrison duties, as there were virtually no
Japanese combat troops on that island.  The experience of the Indonesian
volunteers was not, however, a particularly happy one, as they soon came to
greatly resent the second-class treatment handed out to anyone not racially
Japanese (this on top of the already brutal Japanese military discipline).  One
unit even revolted and fought their Japanese "advisors."  In a tie-in to one of
today's hot ecological issues, small parties of Japanese also came under attack
from time to time from the Dyak tribesmen of the western Borneo rainforests,
who realized that the large-scale logging operations carried out by the
Japanese there was destroying the environment which provided their sustenance.
        The Japanese raised foreign troops to aid their occupations in a few
other places.  In Burma, the Japanese had since 1940 been providing covert aid
to the Burmese independence movement through the so-called Minaimi
Organization.  After overrunning most of the country, they tapped the services
of a leading spokesman for Burmese independence, the dimunitive,
Cambridge-educated Dr. Ba Maw.  Ba Maw had been the president of the token
parliament the British had allowed the locals, but that didn't stop the British
from arresting him after a 1940 speech they considered seditious (in that
speech Ba Maw had mentioned that the British claimed to have been fighting the
First World War to "make the world safe for democracy," and to have renounced
any territorial ambitions, but that after gaining a million and a half square
miles of new territory as a result of the war-- Ba Maw's figure-- their
attitude changed drastically).  In the second half of 1943 the Japanese finally
allowed the creation of a supposedly independent Burma headed by Ba Maw.
However, as with Manchuria and most other states of the "Greater East Asia
Co-Prosperity Sphere," the actual degree of Burmese independence was so minimal
as to be unnoticable.  Even cabinet official's of Ba Maw's government riding in
marked official cars were stopped and rudely searched by common soldiers at
Japanese Army security checkpoints in Rangoon.  Nonetheless, in 1943 a "Burma
National Army" was also formed, totalling about 55,000 men.  This force was
intended for garrison duties in the country, to free up Japanese troops for the
fighting fronts, but the humiliating treatment handed out by the Japanese to
the Burmese at all levels eventually made the armed forces a hotbed of
opposition.  In the spring of 1945, Burma National Army units under the
leadership of Aung San revolted, first in Mandalay and then throughout the
country, and fought a number of heated engagements with the now-retreating
Japanese.  The British later reformed most of these units as a "Free Burma
Army."
        As an aside, I should mention that the Japanese population at home was
totally taken in by propaganda regarding the mission and purity of intent of
the supposed Japanese anti-colonial crusade embodied in the "Greater East Asia
Co-Prosperity Sphere."  In this respect I would venture that "Suzuki-san" (the
contemporary Japanese expression equivalent to "John Doe" or "John Q. Public")
wasn't much different than his or her western counterparts, in that the
majority trusted their government to do the right thing most of the time.  One
of the winning entries in a newspaper contest to develop slogans for the
"Co-Prosperity Sphere" (quoted in a Toland footnote) was, "With firmness we
fight, with kindness we build."  I've already said enough about the true face
of Japanese "liberation" from the colonial powers that anyone who's struggled
through my posts can see the irony of that one.  The trouble is that, even
today, the propaganda about freeing Asia from white domination seems to be
continued, but that's a different thread...
        The only foreign troops that actually fought in front-line actions on
the side of the Japanese against the westerners were some of the India National
Army.  This body was formed in 1942, primarily from Indian prisoners of war.
Its military leader was Mohan Singh, a former captain in a Punjab regiment now
promoted to general by the Japanese.  The spiritual head of this army was the
Bengali leader of the Indian independence movement Subhas Chandra Bose.  Bose
did not share the philosophy of non-violent passive resistance which was the
main tactic of the larger independence movement led by Gandhi and Nehru.  BTW,
both Gandhi and Nehru were arrested by the British and interned for most of the
war, an action that set off major riots across India, which British troops had
to be called in to quell.  Bose had established a Provisional Government of
India with German support and himself as head of state, and he came to the
Pacific to lead the Indian forces there.  At any rate, by the end of summer
1942 about 40,000 of the 55,000 Indian soldiers captured (mostly in Malaya and
Singapore) had joined the INA, about half of them fairly early, indicating
perhaps a true patriotism or a keener sense of opportunism, and the other half
after experiencing a couple months of what life in a Japanese POW camp was like.
This force got its opportunity for combat in the Japanese Burma offensive of
1944.  About 7,000 men formed part of the Japanese spearhead pushing towards
Imphal.  The first troops to reach Indian soil fell to their knees and kissed
the ground, shouting "Jai Hind" (roughly, "long live India").  Bose had even
printed up new currency to be used once he set up his government on Indian
territory.  But the advance stalled, the Indians claiming that the Japanese
division which was supposed to support them had abandoned them (in support of
this theory is the fact Mutaguchi subsequently relieved the division's
commander).  Neither the Japanese nor the British apparently considered the INA
troops worth much as fighters, but it seems they at the very least knew how to
die.  Of those 7,000 men only 2,600 were still alive that summer after the
Japanese retreat.
        Hey, which brings us back to China.  There, too, the Japanese had their
puppets, and these sometimes had armed forces under their control.  However,
except for the troops of warlords in Japanese pay like Li and Sung, who were
used as cat's-paws to open the way for Japanese expansion prior to the outbreak
of open warfare in 1937, it appears few Chinese ever actually fought for Japan.
The Japanese did however set up their own Chinese government after the fall of
Nanking.  Its head was Wang Ching-wei, formerly a prominent member of the
Kuomintang, but a man who always had his own program.  In the Kuomintang's
underground days prior to World War I, Wang had gained repute in the party for
an attempt to assassinate a high government official, which failed when the
bomb he threw did not go off.  Wang was considered one of Chiang's top
lieutenants, and a potential rival for power.  He had his own quasi-independent
power base in the three Wu-han cities.  When Chiang had turned on the
Communists, Wang broke away and made an alliance with the Communists.  However,
a few weeks later he too changed his mind and expelled them from his
organization.  He tried to form his own nationalist government in the early
1930's.  Wang Ching-wei rejoined the Kuomintang in 1938, but, after lengthy
secret negotiations with the Japanese, he defected again in December of that
year.  This led to the proclamation, in 1940, of a Chinese government headed by
Wang and recognized by the Japanese as the legal government of China.  Of
course, the Japanese lost no time in opening negotiations with this government
(which in fact was so powerless that even the design of its flag was a matter
for prolonged and bitter negotiation with the Japanese) with the object of
getting Wang to recognize Japan's right to Manchuria.  Wang's death in 1943
removed this problematic and bizarre personality from the scene.

        That's it for today: tomorrow, back to the war in China.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

PS I've received a number of messages, questions and requests regarding these
posts, I saved them all and will try to respond to every one when I get the
time.  I beg your patience until I finish cranking out the last two or three
posts to finish this series.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:13:59 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Terry, if you don't post the list of Patton, could you send me a copy?

John E. Kollar

killar@mary.fordham.edu

Thanxs.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:23:49 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re2: A-bomb spies

Dear Alex,

Best sellerdom doesn't mean accuracy, and I'm not surprised all the
debate on Sudaplatov is in the US. Britain's man-on-the-scene,
Klaus Fuchs, is a known quantity. Who are the scholars who have
access to the KGB archives? I know the Party archives, the Presidium
archives, and some of the military archives have been all or partly
opened, but last I heard the KGB material was still restricted on
all but a VERY selective basis. Volkogonov, for example, couldn't
get in for his books. Much of Sudaplatov is probably true, although
the Russians themselves have officially noted mistaken claims in the
book as to what responsibilities he had and when he had them. Finally,
I think it is a mistake to talk about the "KGB archives." Soviet
archives in general are circles within circles, and that title covers
a lot of ground. Volkogonov ran into this problem with Alger Hiss-
Hiss heard Volkogonov had access to the "KGB archives" and wrote
to V for an exoneration. V actually had the use of *some* files,
specifically relating to US PoW issues, and wrote that he had seen
nothing relating to Hiss, who promptly trumpeted this as a vindication.
V had no idea the contretemps he was getting into in terms of American
politics. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE has had access
to either KGB or GRU archival material on espionage against the US.

Regards,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:29:07 -0500
From:    "C. MICHAEL SHORT, ASSOCIATE DEAN OF STUDENT LIFE" <SHORT@AB.WVNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

I've been to Patton's museum a couple of times.  They have a nice display
outside of WW II armor.  Lots of WW II stuff inside including a good Patton
film.  It takes a couple of hours to go through if you hurry a bit.  If you are
lucky the armor brigades training at Fort Knox be training in their tanks and
you can watch them, too.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:44:00 EST
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Info on USN Battle Stars

1. How were Battle Stars awarded?

2. Where did ships display them? Especially DD, and what did they look like?

3. Did crewmembers have/wear any decorations to represent Battle Stars?

4. On a USN DD Destroyer how were aircraft kills represented, Flag or
Aircraft Symbol?

Thanks in advance
|   CPORog(Roger D. Corrie) - Email cporog@infi.net  -  Phone 804-427-2200
|  |
   |
|                   19th Century Scientific American online                  |
|          http://www.history.rochester.edu/saonline/saonline.htm Phone
|  |
   |
|                       Appletons' Cyclopedia                                |
|                                 of                                         |
|                       Applied Mechanics online                             |
|          http://www.history.rochester.edu/appleton/apple.htm               |
|                                                                            |
|                             Home Page                                      |
|                   http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/                          |
|____________________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:01:37 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: B-29 sans defensive weapons

A while ago there was a thread as to the switch from high altitude B-29
raids being replaced by low altitude incendiary raids.  I had posted where
I read that they also removed the gunners and defensive weapons for these
raids. I poseted this minus any sources since I couldn't remember where I
had read it - wel last night I stumbled across my source: John Costello's
"The Pacific War 1941-1945" and in it:

        "On March 9, Army Air Force crews assembled in the Quonset huts on
Tinian and Saipan for a mission briefing.  Their apprehension at being told
they would be making the first low-level attack that night on Tokyo was
replaced by shocked disbelief when they heard that the aircraft were to be
stripped of all guns except for the tail turret.  The weight saving in fuel
by not having to form joint uptight formations or climb to 30,000 enabled
each Superfortress to increase its bomb load by 65 percent, to over 7
tons."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:22:29 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: QUERY: Women's WWII Literature

Try _One Woman's Army_ (might be war rather than army) by Charity Adams
published by Texas A&M press.  Excellent book on the WAC's, blacks in
the military, as well as a great book on leadership.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:25:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard I.Bong

Hello, Esaul!

Tell me what you need about Mr. Bong.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:10:45 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Nissen  and Quonset Huts

To all,

Is there a difference between Nissen and Quonset Huts? Were these
British and American terms for the same thing? If not, how did
they differ?

TIA,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:34:48 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

I think we went through this on this list two months ago (or was it
Milhist-l?)

1) While no organized Polish group took part in the Holocaust, and hundreds
of Poles risked their lives to save Jews, thousands more actively collaborated  with the Germans. The most likely reason there was no organized collaboration
was that Poland, unlike most occupied German territory, was directly ruled
by the Germans. I seriously doubt a Polish puppet government would have
behaved any differently than, say, Vichy. To cite St. Maximilian Kolbe
in this context is insulting. Kolbe was one of the most notorious
anti-Semites in prewar Poland, a journalist and politician who crusaded
on this issue. This fact would almost certainly have been known to
John Paul II when he named Kolbe, and was brought out almost immediately
thereafter, yet the process of canonization continued. Among the million,
wasn't there ONE Catholic Pole with more wholesome credentials who could
have been honored? Finally, the only pogrom in Europe *since* the Holocaust     killed 40-50 Jews in Kielce, Poland, in 1946. As I noted in an earlier post,    apparently some thought the Holocaust insufficient.

Alex is quite right in noting the Polish contribution to the Allied war
effort is usually understated- note especially the codebreaking work-
but this is a separate issue.

2) Italy took anti-Semitic actions only in response to real or perceived
requirements of the alliance with the Nazis. I don't think Italy had any
anti-Jewish laws until c.1938, a very sizable number if not most of the
Italian Jewish community survived the war, and Italian commanders in
Yugoslavia intervened to save Jews.

3) Finland saved its entire native Jewish population of 1700+. The only
Jews it turned over were 8 non-Finns demanded by the Gestapo on political       and criminal grounds, who were included in a larger group of about 25 of
all backgrounds. To their credit, the Finns fully investigated this act
and to this day it is considered a national scandal. Another 100 or so
non-Finnish Jews were also protected. President Mannerheim's response to
increasing German pressure to surrender the Jews was to attend services
at a leading Helsinki synagogue.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:18:19 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

The decision to curtail Patton was not Truman's alone- so far as I am
aware, the entire European US Army hierarchy concurred.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:24:43 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Tokyo RAid and Chinese casualties

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:32:19 -0500,
Ron Babuka  <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU> wrote:

>        As per a thread that floated arround a coupe of days ago - from  "I
>Could Never Be So Lucky Again"  Gen James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle:
>
>        Chaing was seething about the enemy onslaught and sent a cable to
>the U.S. State Department:
>
snip snip snip

Ouch, Ron, that was alot of people to die due to the Doolittle raid. I've
heard somethings in the past about japanese retribution but nothing to this
scale...again, Ouch! I'm interested in the war in China and especially
about Japanese atrocities. Could you please refer me to a few good books
dealing with these subjects??
Thanks in advance!!
            Mike Oaks

/====================================================================\
|    Michael A. Oaks                                                 |
|    Systems Analyst                  Music: A means to mark times   |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu              stepping stones through |
|    Kennesaw, Georgia 30144                 your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404)423-6049  Fax (404)423-6541          ~ ~ ~ ~      MAO |
|    VWAR-L #146 - - (Sgt. USAF = / AFCS / AFSS / AFDC)              |
|    Break, Break...Kadena, Kadena, Clark, Clark, Request you echo...|
|    (Some things you never forget...even after 25 years...)         |
\====================================================================/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:27:28 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Col. Bates Dies

        I just want to echo Jim Curry and say that "Hit Hard" is one heckuva
good read for those who like war memoirs, or just well-written personal
history.  Also appropriate for those who ignored Black History Month, just
completed-- this can be your make-up assignment.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:37:42 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on USN Battle Stars

>1. How were Battle Stars awarded?

Battle stars were awarded to ships (and men) when assigned to a specific
combat operations or campaigns.  (i.e. for example my father and his ship
recieved a battle star for the bombardment at Palau along with all other
ships involved in their campaign, a battle star for the Phillipines
campaign, plus a battle star for his ships individual combat at Ormoc Bay).
Also there are silver and bronze battle stars awarded to sailors.

>2. Where did ships display them? Especially DD, and what did they look like?

My fathers destroyer (DD-692 Allen M. Sumner) did not have it's battle
stars painted on the ship during the the war


>3. Did crewmembers have/wear any decorations to represent Battle Stars?

Battle stars (bronze or silver)  are "pinned" on top of campaign ribbons.


>4. On a USN DD Destroyer how were aircraft kills represented, Flag or
>Aircraft Symbol?


On my fathers destroyers, each destroyer VERIFIED sunk had an painted
figure of a ship going under (1/2 ship at 45 degrees to surface) and each
VERIFIED aircraft sunk had an painted figure of an aircraft placed on the
bridge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:42:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Ursel rocket launcher (not much though)

Hello, Gudmundur!

Will see what I can find. I should have something on this.
More later.

All the best.

Terry
>
> Terry Moore: HELP! :) Have you anything on this stuff?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gudmundur J. Helgason                              e-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is
> Olduslod 41                                              phone: (354)-5655270
> 220 Hafnarfjordur                                               (354)-5652270
> ICELAND                                             Maintainer of ICELAND.FAQ
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:46:30 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Richard I.Bong

You wrote:

>
>Esaul Zermeno Bautista writes:
>>
>>        I'm looking information about Richard I .Bong
>>        specially in wich airplane he realize more scores.
>>
>
>
>        My source indicates that Bong scored 40 victories overall, and
the
>only plane mentioned in most of the accounts is the P-38 Lightning.  It
>appears that he flew P-38s for most, if not all, of his combat career.
 As
>to the specific P-38 variants he might have flown, or individual tail
codes
>of his aircraft, I have no information handy.  Bong's main wingman
during his
>career appears to have been Capt. Thomas J. Lynch, who himself scored
20
>victories.  Bong was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour for his
>voluntary, repeated engagement in combat.  Toward the end of the war, I
seem
>to recall that he was posted back to the U.S. to prevent the Pacific's
leading
>ace from being shot down (a definite public relations nightmare), and
to
>bolster war production/war bonds back home.  Bong appears to have been
a big
>hit on the factory/war bond circuit, and I've seen pictures of him
buzzing
>various plants in his natural aluminum-finished P-38.  He was killed in
>August 1945 while testing a new airplane (I don't know what type) at
Muroc,
>California.
>
>Source: Thomas Parrish (ed.) _The Simon and Schuster Encyclopedia of
World
>        War II_.  New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978.
>
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>--
>----------
>Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
>jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca
>
>
Bong was killed testing the prototype P-80 for lockheed.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:46:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jim Irwin

       For Jim Irwin,
                      Sorry to blast the list with this, but the messages
       sent to Jim Irwin keep getting rejected. Jim, would you please give
       your kind permission for me to forward your post on the finding of the
       British Army truck in Egypt? I would like to post it to the Britsh
       auto enthusiast list, as I think they would be interested. Thank you
       for your informative postings, and thank you, Joe Barone & all list
       members for your patientce.

       Colin Brace WA1KWA

       bracec@a1.mgh.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:20:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 3 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-24s over the Gulf of Tonkin and
the S China Sea attack shipping targets of opportunity, claiming 1 vessel
sunk and 3 damaged. In French Indochina, 3 B-25s hit Kep, damaging several
locomotives and boxcars and hit a bridge and 12 P-51s hit targets of
opportunity between Vinh and Nam Dinh (2 direct hits are scored on the bridge
at Minh Koi) while 2 others blast a HQ building in Hanoi.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 24 P-38s and P-47s support
forces of the Chinese 50th Division near Mansam; 16 support the British 36
Division in the Mogok area; 10 P-47s knock out the Na-lang bridge while 2
B-25s drop delay-action bombs in good pattern around the Loi-leng bridge; 10
B-25s join 80+ fighter-bombers in an attack on troops, supplies, tanks,
trucks, gun positions, and transport elephants behind enemy lines, 29 of
the fighter-bombers concentrate on the Kankang area. 643 air supply sorties
are completed.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 861: 1,102 bombers and 743 fighters are dispatched to bomb oil
refineries, oil plant equipment works, motor transport factory, tank plant,
and rail bridge in NC and E Germany; they claim 25-2-37 Luftwaffe aircraft;
9 bombers and 8 P-51s are lost:
  1. 114 B-17s are sent to hit the oil refinery at Misburg (23); 82 hit the
secondary target, the Hanomag tank factory at Hannover; and 2 hit Lemford, a
target of opportunity; bombing is by H2X radar; 11 B-17s are damaged; 9
airmen are KIA and 5 WIA. Escorting are 44 of 46 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1
aircraft in the air; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  2. 222 B-17s are sent to bomb the oil plant at Ruhland (24) and bomb
visually; 166 hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at Chemnitz
using H2X; targets of opportunity are Plauen (11) and other (16); 2 B-17s are
damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged. 193 of 214 P-51s escort claiming 3-0-0
aircraft in the air and 10-0-23 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  3. 94 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Nienburg Bridge (41); 48 hit the
secondary target, the marshalling yard at Bielefeld and 1 hits a target of
opportunity; attacks are visual; 3 B-24s are damaged. The escort is 19 of 21
P-51s without loss.
  4. All 219 B-24s dispatched hit the Rothensee oil refinery at Magdeburg
visually; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 4 B-24s are lost and 77 damaged; 3
airmen are WIA and 39 MIA. The escort is 129 of 144 P-51s; they claim 0-0-2
aircraft in the air; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  5. The primary targets for 453 B-17s are the Wilke (53) and Brussing (77)
oil plants and the MIAG munitions plant (61) at Brunswick and oil refineries
at Dollbergen (37), Dedenhausen (53) and Nienhagen (56); 38 hit the
secondary, Hildesheim (38); targets of opportunity are the marshalling yard
at Bielefeld (36), Herford (23) and other (2); most attacks are visual; they
claim 1-2-4 aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost and 53 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 41
MIA. Escorting are 169 of 180 P-51s; they claim 0-0-4 aircraft in the air and
9-0-2 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond
repair.
  6. 100 of 107 P-51s fly a fighter sweep in the Leipzig-Magdeburg area; they
claim 1-0-3 aircraft in the air; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  7. 30 of 31 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 862: 18 of 24 B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at Emden using PFF.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, the 9th Bombardment
Division hits Wiesbaden, Giessen, Bergisch Born, and Nahbollenbach ordnance
and storage depots, rail bridges at Remagen and Simmern, a communications
center at Heimersheim, motor transport concentration at Schwelm, the
Rheinbach ammunition dump, Kirn marshalling yard and town, and several
targets of opportunity; fighters fly bomber escort, hit special targets, fly
patrols and armed reconnaissance, and support the US 9th Infantry Division,
3d Armored Division, and VII Corps astride the Erft River W of Euskirchen and
the area near Roggendorf W of the Rhine River, the XIII, XVI, and XIX Corps E
of Sevelen, NE of Krefeld, and W of the Rhine in the Dusseldorf area, and the
VIII, XII, and XX Corps in the area between the Prum and Kyll Rivers and
along the Mosel River in the Trier area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Rapidly deteriorating weather
cancels bombing operations. In Austria, P-51s strafe rail traffic between
Leibnitz and SW of Spittal an der Drau and attack the airfield S of Graz;
P-38s fly reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort. 1 B-24, of 6 dispatched,
drops supplies in N Yugoslavia. HQ 31st Fighter Group and the 307th and 308th
Fighter Squadrons move from San Severo to Mondolfo, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, overcast skies and
turbulent winds hamper medium bomber missions against communications in the
Brenner area, allowing only limited success against targets; the Crema and
Fidenza Bridges in the Po Valley are damaged; XXII Tactical Air Command
fighter-bombers, destroy a sugar refinery at Verona and achieve good results
against communications and dumps in the C Po Valley and Brenner area; other
fighters and fighter-bombers support the US Fifth Army S of Bologna; A-20s
during the night of 2/3 Mar, hit roads, ammunition supplies, and vehicles at
several points in the Po Valley, particularly in the Bologna-Modena regions,
and bomb the Legnano marshalling yard.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 10 B-24s from Guam Island pound Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima Island in an afternoon strike, and 4 more, flying individual
strikes, hit the same target during the night of 3/4 Mar. The 467th and 468th
Fighter Squadrons, 508th Fighter Group, move from Kahuku to Mokuleai, Hawaii
with P-47s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In Formosa, B-24s
pound the Tainan area and Kiirun while fighters hit numerous targets of
opportunity and fighter-bombers bomb Koshun Airfield. B-25s bomb San Roque
Airfield on Mindanao Island, Philippine Islands. B-24s and B-25s attack
Zettle Field on Jolo Island. Ternate on Samar Island and Echague on Luzon
Island and Caballo Island in Manila Bay are bombed by A-20s. B-25s, aborting
a strike against Formosa, bomb the airstrip at Basco on Batan Island,
Philippine Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0118Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:19:28 EST
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bio: Richard Ira Bong

Bong's most famous aircraft was a Lockheed P-38J-15-LO, AF serial
42-103993, nicknamed "Marge," after his girlfriend Marjorie
Vattendahl.  A 20x24 inch B&W photograph of Marge was tinted (colored)
and pasted onto the nose of the aircraft, along with 25 Japanese
flags.  The photo was Marge's graduation photo from Superior State
Teachers College.
The plane was lost in March 1944, while being flown by another
pilot (who safely bailed out).
Majorie Vattendahl and Richard Ira Bong were married on February 10, 1945
in Superior, Wisconsin.
Dick Bong was killed August 6, 1945 while flying a Lockheed P-80A-1-LO
AF serial 44-85048 on an AF acceptance flight from the Lockheed plant
in Burbank, California.
The P-80A was from the first production batch, not a prototype.
The Bong Memorial in Poplar, Wisconsin has a P-38 mounted as if in flight,
painted to depict 42-103993 "Marge."
Sources: Lockheed Aircraft since 1913 by Rene Francillion, Naval Institute
Press, Annapolis, Maryland, 1987.
Ace of Aces: The Dick Bong Story by Carl Bong and Mike O'Conner,
Champlin Museum Press, Mesa, Arizona, 1985.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:48:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: B-29 sans defensive weapons

 >A while ago there was a thread as to the switch from high altitude B-29
 >raids being replaced by low altitude incendiary raids.  I had posted where
 >I read that they also removed the gunners and defensive weapons for these
 >raids. I poseted this minus any sources since I couldn't remember where I
 >had read it - wel last night I stumbled across my source: John Costello's
 >"The Pacific War 1941-1945" and in it:

SNIP   SNIP   SNIP

You have to look at each firebomb raid individually becase the
requirements changed with each.  For the Tokyo raid on the night of
9/10 Mar, Major General Curtis Emerson LeMay, Commanding General
XXI Bomber Command, had originally suggested that all guns be
removed from some of the B-29s and using the, along with regularly
armed B-29s, exclusively in night incendiary raids.  The average
load of ammunition in the B-29 was 8,000 roads which weighed 3,200
pounds (1,452 kg).  Only the tail guns were manned.

On the night of 11/12 Mar, the B-29s hit Nagoya; each B-29 carried
200 rounds of 50 caliber (12.7 mm) ammunition for the tail guns.
On the night of 13/14 Mar, 274 B-29s hit Osaka.  The low wing was
given 50 caliber ammunition for the lower forward and aft turrets
in addition to the tail guns.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:02:01 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: INFO ON USN BATTLE STA

Battle stars were worn on theater ribbons, such as the Asiatic-Pacific theater,
for instance. A battle star represented a battle in which the individual or
ship participated, but the Navy Board of Awards established which action
warranted a battle star. Large campaign ribbons were generally painted on the
bridges or the sides of the bridges of combat vessels and each time a battle
star was awarded for an action, it was painted in. An individual could wear a
theater ribbon if he served in the theater, but was only entitled to have
battle stars if he participated in cmapaigns for which battle stars were
designated. Thus, someone who served his whole time in the war at Pearl Harbor
and never went into combat, would wear the Asiatic-Pacific theater ribbon
bereft of stars. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:13:28 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-MAR-1945

On 03-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, contact is made between the
British XXX Corps and the American XVI Corps at Walbeck, southwest of
Gelderen. In the U.S. 9th Army sector, the offensive of the 35th Division is
slowed because of heavy resistance from German parachutists. The XII Corps is
also facing heavy German resistance. In spite of this the 84th Division still
captures Rath and advances on towards Homberg. In the 1st Army sector, the
VII Corps is advancing rapidly towards the Rhine, taking Glessen and
Dansweiller. The 1st Division and 9th Armoured Division reach the Erflt. The
2nd Division crosses the Rur at Heimbach and continues pushing south towards
Gemund. In the 3rd Army sector, the 4th and 87th Divisions are pinned down
near Ormont and Reuth. The 11th Armoured Division cross the Prum and attacks
towards the Kyll, taking Fleringen. The 5th Division secures a small
bridgehead on the east of the Kyll.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 37th Division overcomes final
resistance within Manila. Elements of the 11th Airborne Division conclude
operations to clear Manila Bay with the reduction of resistance in the
Ternate area.

Iwo Jima - The VAC makes slow progress toward the O-3 Line against
increased resistance.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:22:52 EST
From:    Paul <PGREGOR@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb spies

I thought Klaus Fuchs was the one responsible for passing the bomb secrets--
Seems discovery or Arts and Entertainment's series Spies (I forget which)
did an episode on this.... I do also recall that there was some suspicion
cast on Oppy during the Mccarthy witch hunts but can't remember that source
either.

                                            Paul Gregor

                                             Kent State

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:28:24 EST
From:    Paul <PGREGOR@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bio: Richard Ira Bong

I think General Yeager makes comment on Bongs death in his book,
   briefly.


                                   Paul Gregor
                                    Kent State

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Mar 1995 to 2 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 26 messages totalling 1364 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA:WWII Truck Found
  2. INF: Tokyo RAid and Chinese casualties
  3. INF: USN Chronology 03-03-95
  4. Patton Museum
  5. Weather Reports
  6. B-29 sans defensive weapons (2)
  7. Patton biography (2)
  8. Nissen  and Quonset Huts
  9. China/Japan part 8 (2)
 10. endlossung/Germans or Nazis?
 11. Greenland P-38F restoration
 12. China/Japan part 9
 13. Endlosung (was:Is it true that they can trace a single document) (2)
 14. Richard I.Bong
 15. China/Japan conclusion
 16. Japanese tactics revisited
 17. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-MAR-1945
 18. Japanese tactical afterthoughts part 2
 19. Battle of the Bulge
 20. INFO ON USN BATTLE
 21. Glacier Girl
 22. THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 00:19:45 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:WWII Truck Found

The drivers and crew were not in as good as shape as the truck I'd warrent!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Mar 1995 23:13:34 -0800
From:    Pedro A Loureiro <loureiro@SCF.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Tokyo RAid and Chinese casualties

There is quite a lot of information on Japanese atrocities in China,
especially if you can read Chinese.  But even the English language
materials are quite voluminous.

If you have Mosaic, or Netscape, you can actually tap into the Chinese
University of Hong Kong's World Wide Web pages on the Nanjing Massacre.
The address (WWW) is: http://www.arts.cuhk.hk/NanjingMassacre/NM.html
Unfortunately, I have found that it is very difficult to bring up the
Nanjing home-page directly.  The best way to access it is by going into
the Chinese University's menu (http://www.cuhk.hk/) and then pick the
History Department.  You will then find the Nanjing option.  In the event
that you do not have an image browser, you can access the file through
lynx or gopher.

Edgar Snow and Agnes Smedley have written many accounts about Japanese
atrocities.  A recent book by Haruko and Theodore Cook, Japan at War: An
Oral History, also has recollections by the Japanese themselves.

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (War Crime Trials)
is another good source.

Also look through the journal, Journal of Studies of Japanese Aggression
Against China.


Pedro Loureiro

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-03-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/03 Sat. Army troops land on Masbate, Burias and Ticao
           Islands, P. I.; landings are supported by naval
           gunfire and Marine aircraft.
           Submarine TUNA (SS-203) lands supplies on northeast
           coast of Borneo.
            United States naval vessel damaged, Iwo Jima area:
             Attack transport BOLIVAR (APA-34), by coastal
              defense gun,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Oiler HARIO, by mine, off French Indochina,
              18 d. 10'N., 109 d. 40'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 04:56:07 -0500
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.IGLOU.COM>
Subject: Patton Museum

QK.Has anybody been to the Patton Museum at Fort Knox?
.A report would be appreciated.

I've been there a couple of times and can assure you it is well worth
the side trip to Ft. Knox if you are ever in the Louisville, Ky area.
The museum is dedicated to armor of all types and eras.  There are
displays of tanks from many countries.  Patton, of course, is well
covered.  Lots of memorabilia including his "personal" van.  As I
recall they also have a research library but I don't know what it
contains.

Jeff Olson
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.iglou.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 07:41:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Weather Reports

The Associated Press (AP) is reporting that Harry Geise, a
meteorologist who started giving detailed and long-term weather
forecasts on radio station WLS in Chicago has died at age 75.  What
is pertinent to this group is that he started reporting these weather
forecasts in 1941; the US Government forced him to stop in early
1942 because it was believed that these reports would assist German
U-boats in the Atlantic.

Requiescat in pace.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 07:32:26 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-29 sans defensive weapons

Hello, Ron!

Martin Caidin in his book "A Torch to the Enemy" states the same.
The weight saved from removing the gunners and defensive armaments
allowed the Superforts to carry more bombs.

Thanks for the post.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 10:03:10 -0500
From:    Matthew Savoie <msavoie@KRAKEN.MVNET.WNEC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Terry,
        Please post the list of Patton bios.  Thanks.
Matt


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew M. Savoie           |    "Not to know what happened before you were |
Western New England College |    born is to remain always a child."         |
1215 Wilbraham Road         |         - Cicero                              |
Box 1830                    |                                               |
Springfield, MA 01119       |    msavoie@wnec.edu                           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 10:05:57 -0500
From:    Matthew Savoie <msavoie@KRAKEN.MVNET.WNEC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Terry,
        Thanks for the list.
Matt
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew M. Savoie           |    "Not to know what happened before you were |
Western New England College |    born is to remain always a child."         |
1215 Wilbraham Road         |         - Cicero                              |
Box 1830                    |                                               |
Springfield, MA 01119       |    msavoie@wnec.edu                           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:16:09 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Nissen  and Quonset Huts

Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU> write:
> Is there a difference between Nissen and Quonset Huts? Were these
> British and American terms for the same thing? If not, how did
> they differ?

        Since moving to Rhode Island, I have heard that Quonset Huts
acquired that name because they were first constructed at Quonset
Air Station in Rhode Island.  That's about all I can offer on this
topic, though.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Mulligan!?  On time and on target!?  Cripes!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 12:14:38 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-29 sans defensive weapons

        I believe LeMay also mentions the removal of defensive armament on the
B-29's for low-level missions in "Superfortress."  He also speaks of the
difficulties air gunners had adjusting to the sighting system for the
remotely-operated gun positions.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:41:59 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: China/Japan part 8

        Meanwhile, back in China...
        ...there was a war going on.  Although the English-speaking reader may
not run across too much about it in most of the general histories of the Second
World War in the Pacific, it was definitely real to both the Chinese and
Japanese.  In December 1941 there were 22 Japanese divisions deployed in China,
twice the number used in the great southern offensive (just for the record, the
total forces employed in the first three months of the Japanese southern
offensive, including reserves, totalled 11 divisions, 5 brigades, 9 tank
regiments, and the three-battalion "South Seas Detachment."  To clear up
confusion on the number of brigades, since I replied to someone's question by
listing only one, there was one infantry brigade in the opening wave.  The
figure above counts reserves, and also includes the 1st Parachute Brigade, with
only one battalion of actual paratroopers).  In mid-1943 there were in China 26
divisions (including one armored division) and a dozen brigades (including a
horse cavalry brigade), and in August 1945 there were still 28 divisions (one
armored) in China proper (none of these figures counting Manchuria or
Mongolia).  Thus the Japanese commitment in China remained huge, even appearing
to grow as the war progressed (this is however deceiving, as the number of men
per division was definitely higher in 1941; from 1943 onwards many of the
divisions in China were the inferior type "C" divisions, and even the brigades
there in 1943, except for the cavalry, were in most cases distinctly
second-line formations in terms of manpower, training, and equipment).
Nonetheless, Japan remained tied down in China in a large way-- while, on the
other side, and despite the agreements between Roosevelt and Churchill to
concentrate 90% of the Allied war effort in Europe, there were at the end of
1942 more US Army troops in the Pacific than in the Mediterranean and European
theatres.  Japan's commitment in China condemned them to repeat on a strategic
scale the same tactical errors they had demonstrated on Guadalcanal-- i.e.,
being unable to concentrate sufficient forces for the task, they frittered away
many of their best, combat-experienced divisions piecemeal (2nd Division on
Guadalcanal, 6th Division on Bougainville, 1st Division on Leyte, etc).  These
battle-hardened veterans, once lost, could not be replaced.  Although I haven't
read it myself (Toland summarizes it extensively, and Ienaga also makes
reference to it), the recollections of Corporal Kiyoshi Kamiko, a squad leader
in the "Gem" (1st) Division, apparently show both the fighting qualities and
the high attrition suffered by these forces, the pride of the Japanese Army.
Kamiko's unit, during the fighting for the eminence on Leyte known to the GI's
as "Breakneck Ridge," repeatedly threw back American assaults with little more
than rifles, light machineguns, and grenades (and, in one case, the timely
intervention of one heavy artillery piece and four field guns), plus their own
wits and tenacity.  But after the second round of US attacks Kamiko's company
was already down to 25 men, and would soon be critically short of
ammunition as well.  Kamiko was one of a handfull from his division to survive.
        Nor were the units in China necessarily in for soft duty.  In fact, it
was quite the opposite, as this vast unheralded war continued without pause.
The spectacular events of the war between Chiang and the Japanese-- the trench
fighting around Shanghai, the capture and despoilation of Nanking, the shocking
Japanese defeat and near-catastrophe in Shantung province (offset by the fact
that the Japanese were still making spectacular advances virtually everywhere
else), and the destruction of the Yellow river dykes as a Chinese delaying
tactic-- all occurred in 1937-38.  But in 1939 the Japanese Army launched an
offensive against the guerillas in Shansi province, employing three divisions
and on a few occasions surreptitiously using poison gas, while the Navy mounted
its own expedition to take Hainin island in the south.  The year 1940 brought
the ferocious "Hundred Regiments Offensive" by the Communist guerilla armies
in the north, leading to heavy casualties for both sides.  This led to a
large-scale counteroffensive against Mao's forces in the north in 1941, which
caused the Communists further heavy losses.  Still, this hydra was almost
impossible to kill.  By 1944 the Communist forces had again risen to at least
half a million men, by the most conservative Japanese estimates (the estimates
range considerably higher).
        Meanwhile, in the south, Chiang had withdrawn from the war in China
proper to the greatest degree possible, but it takes both sides to make a
peace.  The Doolittle raid on Japan in the spring of 1942 brought a brutal
response in the form of offensive action by some 53 Japanese battalions, who
pushed inland up to 200 miles in an attempt to capture the surviving crewmen
from the raid, and (according to a post I just saw-- was that Jack McKillop?--
if not, great post whoever did it) killing a quarter million Chinese civilians
in reprisal.  This was, of course, going on simultaneously with the "Three All"
policy to depopulate the real and suspected Communist strongholds in the north.
In the winter of 1942-43, five Japanese divisions began what was actually an
extensive foraging operation to bring in foodstuffs for the off-season, but
since this advance seemed to be aimed straight for Chungking, Chiang's Chinese
had to take it seriously.  Chiang's troops did enough fighting in this one that
they fired off roughly half their remaining stocks of ammunition in the
process-- a real problem since, with the Burma road cut, resupply could only
come from the tedious and difficult supply flights over the Hump, as the
mountains separating China from India were known to the fliers.  The capacity
of this extensive resupply by air was extremely limited, and in terms of
resources employed for results gained it was not a very efficient way of waging
war from the Allied point of view.
        In Burma, Stilwell was doing everything he could to reopen a ground
route, primarily with Chinese forces.  Chiang had experienced second thoughts
about his agreement to let Stilwell train (and equip with US weapons) thirty
divisions in India, worrying about the political implications of having such
high-quality troops outside his direct control.  He soon began sabotaging the
plan, and the quality of men (there were constant arguments over the quantity
as well) left much to be desired.  One US processing center for arriving
Chinese recruits in India found 100% of the men that passed through suffering
from some form of disease.  General Wedemayer, Stilwell's successor when
"Vinegar Joe" was finally recalled in 1944, said that even then most of the new
soldiers could not even stand a short hike without collapsing from exhaustion,
and many were literally on the verge of dying from starvation when they came to
the American camps.  Nevertheless, Stilwell's campaign in 1943 proved
successful.  Employing deep penetration tactics and flanking movements in the
tenuous, jungle-covered front, he surprised the Japanese by reaching the key
center of Myitkina.  In the course of this campaign Stilwell drove his small
composite American group, famed as "Merrill's Marauders" (from their
commander's name) to the point of exhaustion.  Merrill himself suffered a heart
attack and had to be evacuated.  But this group worked miracles before becoming
too worn down to continue, and penetrations by Chinese forces also proved
effective (one Chinese unit spent almost a week in "attack preparations"--
i.e., moving through thick jungle to get into attack position.  Another Chinese
force made the deep penetration to take Kamaing that resulted in the Japanese
in Myitkina being cut off from supplies).  The Myitkina battle dragged on for
months, turning into a siege as both sides misestimated the other's
capabilities.  Stilwell did not initially realize how strong the Japanese
garrison, composed largely of men from the experienced 18th Division, was, nor
how tough the pillboxes and other defenses would be to take in frontal warfare.
The Japanese, for their part, seriously overestimated the strength of the
attacking forces.  Though prolonged and costly, the capture of Myitkina was a
definite Allied victory.
        The year 1944 saw the last successful large-scale Japanese ground
offensive of the war.  Not surprisingly, this effort came in China.  I saw
recently on the list the plans Chennault put forth to bomb Japan into
submission using bases in China.  Pearl Harbor delayed but did not terminate
the implementation of this plan.  By 1944 Chennault's 14th Air Force, using
advanced bases in southeast China, was causing the Japanese severe headaches.
Given the tight supply situation in China, the proper use of resources was a
topic of serious disagreement between Chennault and Stilwell.  The latter
argued that it was pointless to build up an air force and the extensive ground
organization that supported it without first having in place a land army
capable of defending their bases against Japanese attack.  Stilwell's dire
predictions came true when the Japanese launched their "Ichi-Go" offensive in
south China during April 1944.  There were 12 Japanese divisions, counting
reserves, employed in this operation (hey, speaking of great names, how about
General Banzai, one of the senior Japanese commanders in this operation?).  In
theory the Chinese had 34 of their own divisions to face them.  In practice,
there were many instances where the Chinese fled from much smaller Japanese
units.  Chennault's air units pounded the advancing Japanese, but could not
stop them (they still controlled the skies to a large degree, in spite of the
Japanese introduction during this operation of their excellent new Ki-84
fighter, which often won in individual engagements but was not yet available in
sufficient quantity to make a real difference).  The tenacious defense of
Hengyang by Chinese Maj-General Fong Tsien-Chueh, who held the city for six
weeks, was an exception to the general pattern of the ground fighting, and in
the end only delayed rather than halted the Japanese.  By the end of summer
Chennault's main bases-- the chief objective of the exercize-- had been
overrun, and the offensive continued on into the fall before petering out due
more to vast spaces and the Japanese scarcity of resources than to Allied
action.
        And with the last successful major Japanese offensive of the war I'll
have to break off.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:54:14 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: China/Japan part 8

All of this discussion of the CBI theater has piqued my interest in
that part of the war.  Any suggestions out there from the list as
to the best history of the Sino-Japanese war in particular and the
CBI theater in general?
As always, thanks in advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:00:51 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Henry Sirotin wrote:

> I think we went through this on this list two months ago (or was it
> Milhist-l?)
>
> 1) While no organized Polish group took part in the Holocaust, and hundreds
> of Poles risked their lives to save Jews, thousands more actively collaborated
> with the Germans. The most likely reason there was no organized collaboration
> was that Poland, unlike most occupied German territory, was directly ruled
> by the Germans. I seriously doubt a Polish puppet government would have
> behaved any differently than, say, Vichy. To cite St. Maximilian Kolbe
> in this context is insulting. Kolbe was one of the most notorious
> anti-Semites in prewar Poland, a journalist and politician who crusaded
> on this issue. This fact would almost certainly have been known to
> John Paul II when he named Kolbe, and was brought out almost immediately
> thereafter, yet the process of canonization continued. Among the million,
> wasn't there ONE Catholic Pole with more wholesome credentials who could
> have been honored? Finally, the only pogrom in Europe *since* the Holocaust
> killed 40-50 Jews in Kielce, Poland, in 1946. As I noted in an earlier post,
> apparently some thought the Holocaust insufficient.
>
> Alex is quite right in noting the Polish contribution to the Allied war
> effort is usually understated- note especially the codebreaking work-
> but this is a separate issue.
>
> 2) Italy took anti-Semitic actions only in response to real or perceived
> requirements of the alliance with the Nazis. I don't think Italy had any
> anti-Jewish laws until c.1938, a very sizable number if not most of the
> Italian Jewish community survived the war, and Italian commanders in
> Yugoslavia intervened to save Jews.
>
> 3) Finland saved its entire native Jewish population of 1700+. The only
> Jews it turned over were 8 non-Finns demanded by the Gestapo on political
> and criminal grounds, who were included in a larger group of about 25 of
> all backgrounds. To their credit, the Finns fully investigated this act
> and to this day it is considered a national scandal. Another 100 or so
> non-Finnish Jews were also protected. President Mannerheim's response to
> increasing German pressure to surrender the Jews was to attend services
> at a leading Helsinki synagogue.
>
> Henry Sirotin
>
        I believe the Danes also managed to save most of their Jewish
population ferrying them to Sweden just before they were to be rounded
up.  I cannot remember how the roundup was leaked but it may have been
the Danish gov't itself before it was taken over by the Nazis and
controlled.  Was this the impetus for the Germans taking over the Danish
gov't, anyone?
        I believe there was more than just one pogrom after the war, many
occuring in places like the current Belarus and Moldova
(Chisinau/Kishenev comes to mind) as well as Yugoslavia.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:20:33 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Greenland P-38F restoration

Wednesday, I revisited the Greenland P-38F restoration.  For those on
the list who don't know what I'm talking about, this is the P-38 that
was recovered from under the ice in Greenland in 1992.  I visited the
restoration effort in May 1994 and posted a note to the list about it.


Brief history:  In the early morning hours of 15 July 1942, seven P-38Fs
of the 1st FG and two 97th BG B-17Es departed from the Bluie West 8
airstrip on Greenland and headed for Iceland.  These aircraft were a
part of Operation Bolero, the ferrying of combat aircraft to England.
One of the P-38s soon returned with a runaway propeller, while the others
continued on towards Iceland, 845 miles away.  After five hours of
flying in steadily worsening weather, a coded radio report was received
that seemed to indicate that weather conditions at the airfield near
Reykjavik was closing down rapidly. (Later, there was some evidence
to support the contention that the radio transmission was from a
German U-boat attempting to mislead them.)  The flight turned and
headed back to BW-8.  Two hours from there, they received a report from
BW-8 that the weather was too bad for landing, so they turned toward
Bluie West One, even further away.  After almost nine hours in the
air, the aircraft were forced down on the icecap by lack of fuel.
While the crew were rescued after four days, the aircraft were not
recovered, and lay undisturbed for 50 years, covered by an ever
deepening blanket of snow.

In the summer of 1992, one of the P-38s was recovered from under 270
feet (83 meters) of snow and ice.  Melting their way through the ice,
the recovery team melted a cavern around the aircraft and dismantled
it, lifting it in pieces through a 4 foot by 16 foot trench they had
created.  The recovery and subsequent transportation to Middlesboro,
Kentucky to begin restoration cost more than US$600,000, with about
another $700,000 spent so far on the restoration.  The aircraft is
being restored to flying condition, with an expected completion date
of 1996.  It is reputed to be the only "F" model P-38 in existence
(with the exception of course of five remaining under the ice in
Greenland).

Current Status:
Much progress has been made since I last saw the aircraft in May 1994.
The inboard sections of the wing are now completed, as is the right
outer wing panel.  The engines are undergoing restoration in
Indianpolis, Indiana.  The right engine is finished, and work is
progressing on the left engine.  The engine mounts look finished,
and they were installing the engine control cables and linkages while
I was there.  The booms are complete back to near the tails, which
are still absent.

The central nacelle containing the cockpit and armament is taking shape.
The forward and upper sections of the canopy are sitting in place, though
the cockpit itself is still empty.  According to project manager Bob
Cardin, this aircraft actually started life as a P-38E, being converted
to an "F" model while still on the assembly line.  It still retained
the sideways-folding upper section of the canopy of the earlier model,
a feature that is being preserved on the restored aircraft.  For those
of you unfamiliar with the P-38, it had a fixed forward windscreen and
aft canopy sections.  The central portion was in three pieces, with
two side pieces that rolled up very much like the side windows on an
automobile, and a third section overhead.  This overhead portion was
hinged on the right side of the earlier models, and hinged at the rear
beginning with (about) the "F" model.  Early models of the P-38 featured
a thick piece of armored glass situated inside the forward windscreen.
This armored glass was recovered in good shape and will be placed in
the aircraft when it is on display on the ground, but will be removed
to improve visibility when the aircraft is being flown.

The original nose section, which housed the guns, is installed and is
being finished.  A second nose section is also on display, with the
original guns and ammunition cans temporarily installed in it.  The
guns will be moved when the nose is complete.  The guns were among the
first items removed from the aircraft when it was being removed from
the ice.  They were successfully test fired, using the 50 year old
ammunition, after being brought to the surface.  The remaining
ammunition is now in storage, and replica ammunition loads will be
carried on the restored aircraft.

The landing gear struts have been returned from England where they
underwent a year and a half long restoration.  The struts are not
yet installed.  The original wheels could not be salvaged, and
replacements have been secured.  The tires still were still inflated
when recovered, and samples of the 50 year old air were saved.  The
original main wheels had wheel covers attached, and they had been
painted insignia blue.  I have no idea if this was some form of
squadron marking or simply the pilot's preference.

A pair of drop tanks from Lefty Gardner have been restored and painted.
New self-sealing rubber liners for the fuel tanks are on hand.

Currently wearing a fresh coat of zinc chromate green primer, the
aircraft will be repainted in the same olive drab over gray scheme
that it wore when new.  The insignia were the blue disc with the
white star, and oddly, the red disc in the center of the star.
(A section of the upper left wing and left boom with the national
insignia are on display.)  This puzzled me, as the red disc was
ordered removed in May 1942.  Bob confirmed that the red discs had
indeed been painted over with what he described as "white fence
paint", which easily rubbed off when the aircraft was recovered.
Other than the various stencilled markings, the only other markings
on the aircraft was the tail number.  The restoration crew has
named the aircraft "Glacier Girl", and a suitable piece of nose
art has been designed, to be applied when the aircraft is painted.
A piece of graffiti dating from the construction of the aircraft that
was uncovered under the inboard radiator on the right boom has been
preserved.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:27:15 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: China/Japan part 9

        As anyone who read my last post on this subject will realize, the
Japanese war in China, much as it may be ignored in many English-language
texts, was hardly a subsidiary operation.  On the contrary, it continued to
consume a major portion of the Japanese Army's resources.  A good example of
the relative scales involved would be the spring of 1942, when the Japanese
employed 53 battalions for a mere punitive expedition in south China, while at
the same time they allotted 14 battalions to face the Allies in New Guinea and
the Solomons.  Or reflect on the fact that the three divisions employed in the
anti-guerilla operations in Shansi in 1939 constituted a force equal in size to
those which conquered Malaya or the Phillipines.  Or that the 12 divisions for
the "Ichi-Go" offensive of 1944 was one more complete division than initially
used in the entire push south in 1941 (albeit the relative sizes and firepower
of the divisions involved were undoubtably quite different).  At any rate, it
could be argued that it was in fact the immense demands of this "sideshow" in
China that condemned the Japanese Army to fight a "poor man's war" everywhere
else.
        I haven't spoken much about Mao's Communist forces recently.  They were
most definitely still around and kicking, even if they had suffered serious
blows in 1941-42.  In fact, the "Ichi-Go" offensive in the south represented a
major opportunity for Mao's forces, who had previously had to face some of the
strongest Japanese military pressure being exerted on the China front.  While
the Japanese were preoccupied in the south, Mao's Communist guerillas oozed
into the neglected northern areas and set up shop.  Soon the Communists could
count under their control four entire northern provinces, with a combined
population of some 68 million inhabitants.  Mao's power base was secure, not
only for the duration of this war, but for the coming reckoning with Chiang.
        In 1941, already a bad year for the Communists as they faced a serious
and costly Japanese counteroffensive, Chiang's forces had broken their uneasy
truce with the Reds (Chiang gave evidence throughout that he still considered
the internal Communists a greater threat than the external invaders, even
allowing tentative peace feelers to be extended to the Japanese).  One of
Chiang's armies attacked the Communist New Fourth Army, with which it was
supposed to be cooperating.  Chiang's troops fell on the Communist rear
echelons, and inflicted some 5,000 casualties in this surprise attack.  This,
of course, marked the end of any cooperation between the Communist and
Nationalist forces.
        BTW, it was not only left-leaning western journalists like Edgar Snow
who found many admirable qualities in Mao's forces.  Most of the US military
officers who served in missions to the Communists shared those sentiments, and
some got in hot water during the McCarthy era of the early 50's as remarks made
praising the organization, discipline, and efficiency of Mao's movement were
later cited as evidence they were "soft on Communism."  Also BTW, I earlier
wondered if Chu Teh had been commander of the 8th Route Army.  Well, yes, in a
sense (but not the sense I had in mind at the time).  Chu Teh, Mao's
indispensible right arm as I think Snow put it, was the commander-in-chief of
the Communist armies ever since their inception in 1927.  He was also a simple,
robust soldier in his personal habits, in particular having a great love for
the game of basketball, which he helped to introduce into the Chinese Communist
army as a recreational activity.  It was said he still played the occasional
pick-up game of hoops when he was 80 (though I bet he lost a step or two).
This is reminiscent of those photos of Mao swimming rivers at an age when most
people are in the geriatric ward.  Of course, Mao also was a firm believer in
hard physical exercize, and except for his heavy cigarette smoking, lived a
relatively simple lifestyle himself.  In 1918, when Mao was 25, he founded the
"New Citizens Society," a group which among its other activities believed in
tough physical training of a military nature.  They did such things as swim in
the rivers even in November, or sleep on the open ground when it was already
covered with frost.  Mao at this time wrote "Exercize should be savage and
rude."  He valued physical stamina, and the ability to do such things as leap
up on horseback and then shoot a rifle.  Mao himself had, as an 18-year-old,
served a six-month stint as a soldier in the Republican armies in 1911.
        A quick historical diversion.  The downfall of the effective power of
China's ruling dynasty came about in 1911.  The leading party for change was
the young Kuomintang (not pretending to know Chinese, but it translates more or
less as "National Peoples' Party").  Its head was Dr. Sun Yat-sen.  Dr Sun came
from a wealthy family.  He had received a western education, although he did
not generally leave the far east to do so.  But he had seen cultures other than
the Chinese first-hand.  Sun summed up China's condition thusly:
        "In spite of our 400 million people gathered together in one China, we
are in fact a sheet of loose sand (NOTE: Sun was speaking before WWI).  We are
the poorest and weakest state in the world, occupying the lowest position in
international affairs.  The rest of mankind is the carving knife and the
serving dish, while we are the fish and the meat."  Sun believed that China
should be run by and for the Chinese, preferably by and for Chinese who were
like himself of the respectable, educated upper-middle classes.  He came to
head a government in 1911, but quickly realized that he did not have enough of
a political, financial, and military power base in the country to actually
rule.  Therefore he resigned a mere fifteen days after taking office.  The
foreign powers, including the US, and also the old mandarin nobility whose
priveleged position was threatened by Sun's proposed meritocracy of businessman
and professionals, generally supported the corpulent northern warlord Yuan
Shi-kai, who came to rule in Peking with the help of western diplomatic
recognition (and money).  The country remained divided until Chiang undertook
his military campaign to unify it following Sun's death.  And of course there
were also the Japanese.  Their efforts to expand on to the Chinese mainland,
beginning in Korea and Manchuria, had already led to war with China in 1894 and
with the Russians in 1903-05.  Foreign diplomatic intervention had prevented
the Japanese from realizing the full fruits of their victories in each case.
However, during World War I, when Japan joined the Allied nations, its chief
role in the war was to invade the German-controlled portion of China (Tsingtao,
where the good beer comes from-- what a coincidence), defeat the small German
forces stationed there, and then-- stay.  Chinese indignation was great at
having German colonialism simply replaced by Japanese (to say nothing of the
untouched colonial holdings of the US, Britain, France, Italy)-- China had
also, under diplomatic pressure, eventually declared war on Germany.
Realization that that was exactly the case led to the first rail strike in
Chinese history in 1919, as a protest.

        Well, gotta go.  Conclusion of China/Japan to follow.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:27:35 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: Endlosung (was:Is it true that they can trace a single document)

On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Bill the Late-replier wrote:

>     I might accept that Hitler and the other honchos had a fantasy, if you
> will, that the Jews would be exterminated.  But the "systematic" events
> that expelled the Jews from society weren't all that systematic.  They
> might have followed a logical course, but what other course could they
> have followed?
>     In the end, as I was going to say, Hitler might have thought, "it
> would be nice if we could exterminate the Jews".  But to say that there
> was a concrete, realistic "architecture of genocide" (to use my Professor
> Breitman's term) is stretching the ablitiy of people in general to
> see into the future.
>
> William Lippert
> The American University
>
        I can understand where some of the arguments for your point of
view come from, but what I can't get past is the idea that people didn't
know where the policies against the Jews were heading.  We in North
America look at the buildup to the holocaust and say that the German
people could not have known where it was heading.  I think they did.
They obviously could not have known the scope it would reach but they
understood systematic anti-semitism.  They had been practicing it for
centuries.  The actions against the Jews from the early thirties on was
simply the most recent manifestation of it.  I think it would not be
incorrect to assume that the way the Jews were being treated and the laws
being enacted against them would lead any honest contemporary observer to
the conclusion that Jews were going to be murdered because of those
policies.  It is reasonable to assume a number of ten thousand would not
be stretching the imagination.  The simple fact that it reached the scale
it did does not preclude the people willing to stand by while the SA and
SS beat Jews to death in the streets from guilt for the final outcome.
As time wore on it also becomes hard to believe people did not realise
where it was heading.  I think Kristalnacht is probably the point of no
return for German guilt.  This was where there could have been no
question about where the Nazis had taken the German people.  I think that
at this point anyone who could have imagined 10 000 deaths previously
would have easily imagined ten times that many or more.
        After Kristalnacht there were people still willing to speak out.
Had enough people joined the chorus regardless of where Hitler and the SS
took Germany afterwards the German people could have had some claim
to at least partial innocence.  There is no reason to believe that Nazis
efforts against the Jews would not have been set back had there been a
public outcry against their policies at this time.  If it had simply
driven their actions underground then there likely would not be as much
of an issue over the guilt of the German populace.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 18:40:56 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: Richard I.Bong

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Jim O'Neil wrote:

> >       I'm looking information about Richard I .Bong
> >       specially in wich airplane he realize more scores.
> >
>
> Esaul Alfredo,
>
> He flew a P-38 "Lightning" for all 40 of his victories. They were all in
> the South-West Pacific Area [New Guinea - New Britian area] against the
> Japanese.
>
> Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility
>
I don't know much about Richard bong but I will add what I remember from
a TV documentary:
He was a very "straight" kind of guy who didn't join in the traditional
drinking and partying of fighter pilots.  He never drank alchohol, and
when he broke american ace Eddie Rickenbacker's record, Rickenbacker sent
him a case of scotch.  he gave the scotch to his friends and stuck to
Coca Cola.  Bong went to the states where he married his high school
sweetheart, and was killed when test flying (1945?) the Air Force's new
jet fighter, the P-80 "Shooting Star".

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 18:51:16 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: China/Japan conclusion

        We have seen how the war between China and Japan served not only as a
chief underlying cause of the eventual hostilities between Japan and the west,
but also that the Chinese conflict remained a focus for an immense proportion
of Japan's limited military resources.  Nor was the campaign there a picnic
for the soldiers involved, although a Japanese private posted to China probably
had a better chance of surviving the war than most of those sent to fight the
Allies anywhere else.  For the common soldier, given the huge distances and the
limited mechanization available (which Joe Barone, I see, made an excellent
observation on, comparing the degree of US motorization in one small
bridgehead, Anzio, with that of the entire Japanese forces in China), it was a
campaign of long, grueling marches, in which stragglers were often set upon and
murdered by vengefull villagers, all too many of whom had past experience of
Japanese atrocities.  It was also a campaign where the enemy was often
invisible, in that the guerillas could and did vanish into the civilian
population.  I should also mention that part of the preparation for "Ichi-Go"
was a widespread propaganda campaign, including the dropping of thousands of
leaflets, attempting to separate Chiang and the Chinese from the westerners.
To aid in this pursuit, and give some credibility to the theme that the
Japanese were the true friends of China, the Army made strenuous efforts to
enforce discipline, and even to re-educate the troops to prevent outrages
against the civilian population (the fact that these efforts yielded a fair
degree of success belies the excuse that the worst excesses in China were the
result of troops out of their officers' control.  It appears more like the
Japanese command just didn't try very hard to maintain order-- in fact, there
is a great deal of evidence to suggest that atrocities were encouraged at all
levels.  I keep remembering Ienaga speaking of an incident where after a
small-scale massacre a Chinese baby was found lying in the road by a Japanese
soldier, who asked his commanding officer what to do with it.  The
answer-- "kill it!")
        By 1945, though, the Japanese sun in China was definitely setting.  The
catastrophic defeat in Burma in early 1944 had set the stage for the reopening
of the Burma Road.  On the Japanese side, Mutaguchi and most of his staff were
relieved of command after the disaster.  A new formation, 33rd Army, was
created from the remnants of the Japanese forces in Burma, commanded by General
Masaki Honda.  Honda did a pretty good job of organizing a defense in central
and southern Burma, and whenever the British had to hit his positions head-on
they found the going tough.  However, after the loss of virtually an entire
army in the spring even the best improvisations could no longer hold back the
tide, and Japan's days in that country were clearly numbered.  In the north,
Stilwell's forces attempted to renew their push, hurt by the fact that the
Chinese forces which were supposed to be helping them by attacking the Japanese
from the Chungking side of the old Burma road made little progress, then were
largely diverted to stem the Ichi-Go assault.  Behind Stilwell, armies of US
engineers were busy hacking a new road out of the jungle, alleviating the need
of fighting through the strong defensive positions along the old thoroughfare.
Wherever Stilwell advanced, the road more or less followed him.  This
gargantuan task, a monumental feat of engineering, was, BTW, carried out
with the labor of thousands of black Americans working in construction
battalions.  Since we just passed Black History Month, I should mention that
patriotic African-Americans, despite all the disadvantages and barriers of an
institutionalized racism in the armed forces, played a notable role in the
Pacific whenever they were given the chance.  As many on the list know, one of
the first American war heroes was a black man, "Dorie" Miller of the US Navy.
At that time blacks were only allowed two basic jobs in the Navy-- they could
be stewards, a demeaning position which was essentially a shipboard waiter; or
they could be ammunition handlers, a job which involved hard manual labor, and
was dangerous to boot.  Miller was a steward on the battleship WEST VIRGINIA at
Pearl Harbor, who during the attack took over an abandoned .50-calibre mount
and was credited with shooting down three Japanese planes.  He was decorated
but remained a steward, and died in 1943 when the light carrier he was serving
on was sunk by a Japanese submarine during the Tarawa/Makin operation.
        The new road came to be known as the Ledo road, since it passed through
that town, but to the engineers who built it it was known as "Pick's Pike,"
after Maj-General Lewis Pick, who was in charge of construction.  The first
truck convoy went through to China on the new road in January 1945, and the
reopening of the land link certainly put a stamp on the Japanese defeat on the
Chinese mainland.  The final act in clearing the Japanese out of that corner of
northern Burma in January 1945 was the taking of the 7,500-foot peak known as
Huilungshan.  Journalist Theodore White ("In Search of History") vividly
described the action, which he witnessed, as a textbook demonstration of
military art, involving primarily Chinese troops with US air support.  The
degree of efficiently which could be acheived by properly trained, equipped,
and led Chinese troops was clearly evident.  After air strikes which included
the dropping of fragmentation bombs and napalm, the massed Allied artillery
began firing precisely ranged, precisely timed eight-minute salvos-- three
times an hour.  Under cover of each short barrage the Chinese infantry would
advance another stage up Huilungshan's slope, until at last they cleared the
peak with a spirited bayonet charge.
        Meanwhile in the north, the Japanese were able to mount
locally-successful offensive operations (some of which involved the 3rd Armored
Division) well into 1945, but the end was in sight there as well.  The Japanese
never found an adequate answer for Mao's guerilla tactics.  They took ground,
at times they inflicted casualties, but they never actually won.  August 1945
found the Communists still in control of large areas of northern China.  When
the bulk of the 300,000-strong Kwantung Army in Manchuria laid down its arms in
the face of the strong Soviet invasion, it was widely reported that a good many
of those arms were quickly transferred to the Chinese Communists, although many
have subsequently disputed this assertion (which would be hard to verify or
disprove, if only because so many captured Japanese weapons were already being
used by Mao's forces).  Japan was defeated, but the war in China was far from
over.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

PS: Two more to go: a final word on tactics, and an appendix briefly discussing
"the last battlewagon war."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 20:20:00 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japanese tactics revisited

        I thought I'd try to pass quickly over some of the campaigns of the
Pacific war to which I've referred briefly or not at all in my earlier posts,
and see if I can fit them into the overall pattern I've conjured up.
Particularly, I wanted to look at New Guinea and the post-Guadalcanal Solomons
campaigns.
        A good place to start would be New Georgia.  Despite the belated
recognition of the Japanese general staff of the pivotal role of the
Guadalcanal battle, and the disappointing outcome of same (in the land
fighting, about 25,000 Japanese died, compared to roughly 1,500 Americans-- the
latter about 1,000 Marines, and 500 of the US Army troops who were the majority
on the island by November), some aspects of the fighting on New Georgia, the
next Solomon isle to be attacked, might have been encouraging.  The Japanese
certainly contested the battle with a ferocity  which did not convey any
feeling of inferiority or defeat.  However, there were also some very
disturbing tendencies which continued to show themselves during the battle.
The Japanese ground forces on New Georgia were initially
very small, but they were supported by some of the best air and light naval
units the Japanese Navy had left.  Admiral Ryunosuke Kusaka, who as Nagumo's
chief-of-staff had actually been the controlling force behind the carriers of
Kido Butai from Pearl Harbor to Midway, was now Japanese naval commander at
Rabaul, responsible for the Solomons.  Rear-admiral Raizo Tanaka, of the famed
"Tokyo Express," still had his light cruisers and destroyers ready to plague
and bewilder the enemy (BTW, though "Tokyo Express" was an American nickname,
the Japanese too had their amusing slang.  The Navy preferred not to
risk transports in enclosed waters with uncertain air support, feeling more
comfortable shipping in reinforcements either in destroyers, which were fast
and could protect themselves, or in small motorboats, which could hide easily
and slip from island to island under cover of dark.  These were known to the
Japanese respectively as "Rat Express" [destroyers] and "Ant Freight.")
        The first American landings at Rendova, a small island within artillery
range of the chosen landing beaches at New Georgia, were carried out on the
last day of June 1943.  The Japanese air response was furious.  They threw in
just about everything they had, but after the losses of the previous year,
culminating in the unsuccessful "I-Go" air offensive, they were already running
out of planes and pilots.  Most of the Japanese attacks suffered
disproportionate losses, further aggravating the situation, but they came on
with great determination, and on many occasions some bombers broke through the
American fighters and flak to do some damage of their own.  On the first day of
the Rendova landings, a Japanese plane put a torpedo into the assault transport
that was serving as the flagship for Admiral Kelly Turner, the emerging
American master of amphibious operations.  On the third day ashore, a whole
formation of Japanese bombers made it in virtually untouched to drop their
loads over an American artillery position and a small peninsula crammed with
troops, where an engineers' dump of gelignite explosives went up, more than 150
people being killed or wounded by the blast.  US casualties to air raids on the
day reached 200 men.  On the fourth of July, the fifth day ashore, the Japanese
arranged a fireworks display by sending over 18 bombers escorted by 66
fighters.  The need to provide such a heavy escort alone says volumes about the
way the Japanese were losing even parity (much less their previous superiority)
in the air combat.  Four bombers managed to reach the main beaches, where their
bombs caused 19 casualties, but the Japanese lost another 11 planes, which was
certainly not offset by the pinpricks they were inflicting (there was one
occasion during this series of raids when the Japanese actually completed an
attack mission without losing a single plane, but this was an exception).  BTW,
while speaking of the Japanese "poor man's war," one aspect comes to mind in
the American "rich man's war" which is not often stressed in the accounts of
the Pacific fighting, namely the superb job done by American antiaircraft
gunners during most of the period from 1943 on.  It was just another example of
the superior American metal that I seem to keep reading of heavy Japanese
losses to AA fire.  Meanwhile, on the Japanese side I vividly recall, from
Yoshida's "Requiem For Battleship Yamato," an incident where an officer on that
Japanese ship gives a clinical explanation in terms of physics describing why
the Japanese ship-mounted 25-mm AA gun (usually emplaced on triple mounts) was
with its inferior muzzle velocity incapable of shooting down the fast new
American aircraft-- this lecture being given while about 250 of those aircraft
were buzzing around attacking the doomed battleship.
        At any rate, on July 3rd Kusaka had received further air
reinforcements, but it was clear the Japanese were already scraping the bottom
of the barrel in this regard.  The Japanese Navy had created a new, land-based
21st Air Fleet, and this was sent to Kusaka.  But this "air fleet" consisted in
fact of 20 Zero fighters, a dozen assorted attack planes, and two reconnaisance
planes.  To beef up the forces at Rabaul further, the Navy transferred in the
entire air complement from one of their small new fleet carriers, a total of 25
more Zeros and 28 single-engined bombers.   (BTW, most of this detail comes
from D.C Horton, "New Georgia."  Horton was a coastwatcher during the campaign.
I should mention that these courageous Australians, who hid in the jungle with
radios keeping an eye on Japanese movements, provided a supremely valuable
intelligence for the Allies in the Solomons.  It was a coastwatcher who tipped
the Americans off to the building of an airfield on Guadalcanal, giving the
impetus for that entire campaign.  Many, including Horton, later went in ahead
of the main landings around New Georgia with special scout units.  The superb
local intelligence of the coastwatchers added to the efforts of the American
codebreakers, whose clever men with clever mechanical computers made possible
events such as Midway and the assassination of Yamamoto.  The Americans, of
course, in this respect owed something of a debt to the Ultra-related work of
the British, who in turn owed a debt to the French and especially the Poles.
Ultra and its derivatives, one of the truly great war-winning intelligence
weapons of WW2, was truly an Allied affair.)
        In July Kusaka also received naval reinforcements, as Admiral Koga sent
him three more cruisers and three destroyers from Combined Fleet.  In the naval
battles, now almost entirely by night as the daytime American air presence was
too strong, the Japanese still held their own.  There were a series of sharp
clashes around New Georgia, all involving Japanese attempts to bring more
troops into the island or its neighbors.  In the first of these battles, the
Japanese sank the US cruiser HELENA but lost one destroyer sunk and another
beached.  Both sides considered this a setback, the Americans because they lost
a cruiser to an inferior force and did not prevent the Japanese landings
entirely, the Japanese because they had only managed to put 850 men ashore.  In
a second battle soon after, US forces ambushed another supply run, and a rapid
outpouring of accurate radar-directed fire sank the light cruiser JINTSU,
Tanaka's long-time flagship.  However, in a virtual repeat of the affair off
Guadalcanal's Tassafaronga Point in 12/42, the Japanese responded quickly, and
the deadly "Long Lance" torpedoes struck three American cruisers and a
destroyer.  Only the destroyer sank, and the cruisers were not as badly damaged
as in the previous reversal, but the Japanese managed to land all their troops,
and this was a definite tactical defeat for the US units.   BTW, by this time
one or two of Tanaka's ships had radar too, although the Americans still seem
to have held the advantage in both technical capabilities of the equipment and
in its effective combat use (unless I'm mistaken, one of the first sets in the
Japanese Navy was in fact on the JINTSU).  It was also in a nocturnal clash at
this time that a Japanese destroyer rammed and sank John F. Kennedy's PT-109.
        The Japanese did receive a stiff setback in a subsequent naval battle
when they tried to reinforce the neighboring island of Kolombangara (also
within artillery range of New Georgia) in early August.  Four Japanese
destroyers were intercepted by six US destroyers, the latter having received
intensive special training as a unit in nightime torpedo attacks.  Even without
the "Long Lance," the Americans hit hard.  Three of the four Japanese ships
were sunk without US loss, and about 900 troops were drowned.
        Meanwhile, on land, once the American forces made the short hop across
to New Georgia, covered by the artillery on Rendova, the outnumbered Japanese
proved tough opponents.  Their complexes of pillboxes studded with machineguns,
and enough 37- and 47-mm antitank guns to make the US armor wary, imposed
constant delays, and a large-scale counterattack (which was less of a suicide
charge and more of an infiltration of a perimeter not yet established in depth)
provided some tense moments.  Progress was so slow that General Hester,
commander of the US Army division which did most of the fighting, was relieved
of his command.  The results were encouraging enough that Sasaki, the Japanese
commander, believed he could hold Kolombangara, which was being continually
reinforced.
        The Japanese command, however, dismayed at the growing US air and sea
power, had decided not to make a further stand in the central Solomons.  This
was fortunate, for during the rest of the campaign there the Allied forces were
to demonstrate a mastery not only in the air but also in ground tactics.
Admiral Halsey premiered the tactic of "island-hopping" by skirting
well-garrisoned Kolombangara to descend on Vella Lavella further north in late
August.  The Japanese were taken by surprise, but their Navy was still equal to
the task of safely withdrawing most of the troops from both isolated
Kolombangara and Vella Lavella.  One incident in the withdrawal from the latter
island in early October showed the Japanese Navy had still not lost its
effectiveness in surface combat.  A force of nine destroyers, five subchasers,
and three small torpedo boats was taking away some of the last defenders, when
they were surprised by three American destroyers.  Each side lost a destroyer,
but the Japanese evacuation was successfully completed.  BTW, I earlier
wondered whether it was Australian or New Zealand forces that did most of the
dirty fighting on Vella Lavella.  You knew I had to go look it up.  In fact it
was the New Zealanders.  New Zealand fighter units flying P-40s were also
active in the Solomons, and participated in some of the first big fighter
sweeps over Rabaul in late '43-early '44.
        The final Solomon battle, Bougainville (spring '44), some of the worst
traits of Japanese Army tactics evidenced on Guadalcanal resurfaced.  General
Hyakutake, hampered again by poor intelligence, launched a full scale attack on
the Allied forces which had come ashore at Empress Augusta bay.  His 15,000 men
attacked an Allied force of 62,000, and suffered accordingly.  This once again
makes an interesting comparison with Sasaki's grudging defense of New Georgia,
where the slow choreography of the American invasion gave the Japanese adequate
time to prepare, even if with scant resources, and where major delays were
thereby imposed.  At Bougainville poor intelligence and more "bamboo spear"
tactics threw away any chance early on.
        Forgive a certain lack of coherence in this post, I had less time to
collect my thoughts before writing.  More thoughts in a minute (for what
they're worth).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich


------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 20:51:51 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-MAR-1945

On 04-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the 43rd Division pushes
southeast towards Xanten. The Canadian 2nd and 3rd Divisions complete the
capture of the Hochwald and Balberg forests. The 53rd Division takes
Geldern. In the U.S. 9th Army sector, the 5th Armoured Division cuts the
road linking Rheinberg with Mors. The 2nd Armoured Division takes
Kaldenhausen and finishes mopping up in the area around Urdingen and
Vietelsheide, bringing operations in the Cologne lowlands to a close. In
the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 99th Division is advancing north on the line
Derikum-Ukrath. The 104th Division breaks into the outer defences of
Cologne. The 9th Division takes Derikum and Hausweiler. In the 3rd Army
sector, the 4th and 87th Division resume their advance.

Eastern Front - Russian troops break through to the Baltic coast, splitting
the Germans remaining in Pomerania. THe 2nd White Russian Front reaches the
coast at Koeslin while elements of the 1st White Russian Front thrust to
the coast near Kolberg.

Italian Front - The 10th Moutain Division makes good progress taking M.
Acidola, Madonna di Brasa and M. della Croce.

Philippines - In the XI Corps area, the 43rd Division begins a westward
push into the Zambales Mountains west of Clark Field.

Iwo Jima - The VAC continues to attack with 3 divisions but is unable to
advance appreciably. A B-29 makes an emergency landing on Iwo.

Burma - The Indian 17th Division has largely completed the capture of
Meiktila.

Japan - 192 B-29's participate in a precision attack on the Musashino
aircraft factory in Tokyo.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt Anniversary - Today is the 12th anniversary of President
Roosevelt's first inaugaration.

Curfew Violator's Seized - Police have arrested 15 patrons of a rooming
house speakeasy in New York City on charges of disorderly conduct for
violating the nation-wide midnight curfew. They are charged a fine of $5
each.

Sam Snead Wins Again - Sam Snead is on a real roll, he has won his 6th golf
tournament of the year by winning the Jacksonville Open.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 20:51:01 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japanese tactical afterthoughts part 2

        The New Guinea campaign presents a totally different picture than most
of the other battles studied.  This is one area of the Pacific in which the
Japanese were, IMHO, completely outfought and out-thought at almost every stage
of the action.  MacArthur, the Allied commander, followed what may be
considered a familiar pattern, in that he looked pretty bad in the early going,
but like a genius later on.   His disdain for the Australian efforts, which
combined superhuman endurance with a remarkable degree of jungle savvy, is hard
to explain except by impatience and, with US troops bogged down in the
Buna-Gona fighting, scapegoating to preserve his own sacred reputation and ego.
Even before the Buna portion of the campaign unfolded, after Australian forces
had triumphed over both the enemy and the elements to evict the Japanese from
Milne Bay at New Guinea's southeastern tip, MacArthur ordered General Blamey,
the Australian and initially the overall Allied ground commander, to go to the
island personally to "vitalize" the Australian efforts.  This treatment should
have been received as a great affront by Blamey, one of the most courageous and
experienced of all Allied commanders, whose troops were doing the brunt of the
fighting and doing it successfully (Blamey, after being repeatedly wounded in
World War I, fought in both the European and Pacific theatres during World War
2).  At any rate, the campaign for Buna cost the Allies 8,500 casualties, and
is one of the low points of MacArthur's career as a commander (I must say also,
in response to a point raised earlier by David Murnain, that in the pursuit of
the Japanese back to Buna an Australian brigade executed a tactical coup worthy
of the Japanese in Malaya or Burma when they penetrated through the jungle in a
wide flanking move and cut off part of the retreating Japanese force).
        Still, MacArthur at Buna-Gona should get points for learning.  What he
learned was the price of attacking the Japanese head-on in prepared jungle
positions.  It was a mistake he did not make on that scale again during the
campaign (at least on New Guinea itself).  The rest of his campaign there was a
masterpiece of movement and deep strategic penetration, cutting the enemy up
and leaving him as helpless as the Allies had been to oppose the dissection of
Indonesia a year earlier.  And the comparison is apt, because it was exactly
the Allied advantage in air and naval forces which allowed such swift,
unexpected descents deep in the enemy rear.  The most stunning example of
MacArthur's new strategy and tactics was Hollandia (although the actions around
the Huon peninsula in the fall of the previous year weren't too shabby, either)
In April 1944 MacArthur's forces swooped down upon Hollandia, New Guinea's best
natural harbor, located at that time 580 miles behind the front lines!!  The
Japanese were taken totally by surprise.  Of the 11,000 Japanese military
personnell in the area, only 500 were combat troops.  The Japanese commander
there, Major-General Toyozo, had only assumed his post ten days before.
Casualties were negligable, except to the Japanese, who lost about 3,000 men.
US troops coming ashore found unmanned defenses, including bunkers with cunning
fields of fire where, in the opinion of one officer, "a squad could hold up a
division."  Some of the landing troops found empty quarters with full bowls of
rice sitting out, having obviously surprised the occupants at their meal (just
as the US landings did on Guadalcanal).   This move trapped General Adachi and
the 40,000 troops of his 18th Army (since also reinforced by 36th Division) far
down the coast.  Adachi and his men showed amazing tenacity and determination.
They moved through hundreds of miles of jungle, and in July they reached and
attacked MacArthur's forces near Aitape.  Adachi by then had 20,000 men left,
but only 8,000 of them were actually infantry, the rest combed-out rear area
personnel.  The attacks continued for 25 days.  Fighting with the courage of
desperation, at one point the Japanese actually acheived a partial breakthrough
of the American positions.  But in the end it was just more "bamboo spear"
tactics, and Adachi lost 9,000 men without having any positive effect on the
outcome of the campaign.

        Fatigue forces me to break off.  I will finish up with one last post
about the change in Japanese tactics to face Allied amphibious invasions, plus
a few thoughts on the Japanese forays into high-tech.  Hopefully a break will
enhance my writing clarity so the point of these last posts will be evident.


        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 21:49:34 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Battle of the Bulge

While skimming the internet with PBS on in the background, I heard an
announcement that on Saturday night at 1930 EST, a program on the Battle of the
Bulge will be televised. Enjoy, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 21:51:47 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: INFO ON USN BATTLE

I have to correct you on one fact, Ron. Battle stars on combat ribbons were
bronze. The silver star represented five awards. So a person with one silver
star and a bronze star would indicate that for the Asiatic-Pacific campaign
ribbon, for example, the individual wearing the ribbon participated in six
campaigns. For personal decorations, if you received five of a Navy Cross, for
example, you would wear a gold star--gold and silver stars are larger than the
bronze star, by the way. For the naval services, the guide to decorations is
the "Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual," which is always in a state of being
updated. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 21:43:09 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Endlosung (was:Is it true that they can trace a single document)

Kevin,
   First, I will address the issue of whether or not the Germans were guilty.
It's not an easy question, of course, and there's no definite answer.  But
if you call them guilty because they did not protest after Kristallnacht,
I would disagree.  What could they do?  By this time the regime was firmly
in place and the police had cowed the populace into submission.  I also
think, besides from the general state of oppression, the population had
been dulled by constant propoganda, terror, and social repression.
   The strength of the regime was not that the population was particularly
enthusiastic with the regime - this can be seen by the Nazis only capturing
30% or so of the free vote - but that it was not socially acceptable to
reject any aspects of the regime, let alone openly protest.  I find this
somewhat analogous to the current PC trend - it is not the government or
any particular authority that is responsibility for PC, but social controls
such as rejection by friends, social isolation, etc.   Add to this the
actual government intervention and you come up with a formula for silence.
    And you bring up another good point - how could the Germans not know
where Hitler was headed?  First, just because they might have thought that
the regime was going to eventually exterminate Jews doesn't mean that there
was a concrete plan for doing so.  But that is another matter.
    We do, of course, can easily say, "where else were the Germans headed
other than extermination of the Jews?"  But it was much harder to think
that between 1933 and 1939.  First, what person would want to think that?
It is, in my opinion, a pretty inconceivable idea - up there with conspiracy
theories that run around college campuses.  Most of the German people
believed, during this time, that Jews were merely going to be removed
from Germany through forced emigration - which was the policy at this
time.
    Between 1939 and 1945 they had other things to worry about.  Besides,
how many Jews were there in Germany at this time?  Most of the more respectable
ones (versus the poor and socially isolated) had already left the Reich.
The disappearance of a few Germans here and there should not have been
particularly strange - they were being, according to the authorities and
word on the street - shipped East for resettlement.  I'm inclined to believe
that this explanation was believed not only because it was more realistic
but because it was more palatable.
      One reason the Germans never objected was because the regime carried
out "genocide in stages".  The SPD and supporters of the Republic had the
same problem from 1923 to 1933.  The Nazis carried out a coup in stages -
it was not a dramatic march on Berlin and seizure of power, but a gradual,
incremental coup by gaining Reichstag votes, local leadership, etc.  The
problem with the opponents of the Nazis was that there was no singular event
in which they could say, "look at this!"  By the time the opposition figured
out what was going on it was too late - Hitler was Chancellor.
     The Nazis used this same strategy, and I am not inclined to believe
it was intended (it was functionally evolved), of doing things in slow,
almost indiscernable stages.  It started out with boycotts, was emphasized
by speeches, cemented in laws, culminated in riots, involved forced emigration,
and only near the end culminated in mass extermination.  At no singular point
was the final solution eminent and thus, at no single time could the people
protest.
    The Allies, too, were hoodwinked for a long time by "aggression in stages".
It is well known how Hitler gradually neutralized the great powers; violating
parts (but only parts) of the Versailles Treaty, then tearing it up, occupying
the Saar, taking Austria, the Munich Agreement, and seizing the rest of
Czechoslovakia.  It was only until Sept 1939 that the Allies woke up and
finally figured out what Hitler was up to.  It is easy for us to see that
Hitler was headed on a war path from the beginning of his regime.  But
it was, history has shown us, much more difficult for the English and
French to see it.
    What the Germans and Great Powers experienced, in psychological terms,
was "systematic desensitization".  For example, if you try sticking your
hand in 150 degree water or 32 degree water (it doesn't get colder under
normal conditions) it will fell hot or cold.  But if you start the water
at room temperature or slightly higher and then gradually warm or cool it,
at no specific point can you call it "hot or cold".  There is a threshold
at which the temperature can be quantified, but it is considerably higher
than if one has an immediate immersion to the temperature in question.
    In the end, I kind of feel sorry for the Germans.  They fell victim
to perfectly human thoughts and feelings.  It was not that they were
a bad people but that they, in the end, too human with all of its strengths
and weaknesses.  Whether or not they were guilty is another question which
I will address in another post.
    Thanks for your input, Kelvin, and I look forward to hearing your response
to the above.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 22:40:07 -0400
From:    Michael E Smith <S003MES@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl

        Just recieved the summery of the P-38F restoration project.  While
I'm excited to hear that another of these beautiful aircraft will grace us
with its presence, I'm disturbed that non-original markings will be applied
to it.  As an aviation historian, currently acquiring my Masters Degree in
museology, I feel it is of vital importance to preserve historical
material as accurately as possible.  This accuracy should be all the more
important if, as was stated, this is the only P-38F.  Considering how
much money was spent salvaging the aircraft as well as restoring it, it's a
shame that the aircraft will not be "truly" original.

Michael E. Smith
S003MES@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Mar 1995 22:28:29 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

I thought that, because of the talk recently about the Endlosung (which
was, curiosly enough, begun by some discussion about documents) and German
guilt.  This is a question that has persisted, very passionately, from
the beginning of the war to today.  I don't think it will ever be resolved
for good reason.

     I remember reading an editorial in Life magazine - written in 1943 or
so - about the Germans and whether or not they were bad people.  Actually,
it was a response letter in the front.  Anyway, the editorial had said that
the Germans were a good people and that Hitler had hoodwinked them.  The
response letter made the claim that it was the Germans who brought the
regime to power and the Germans who supported the regime.
    The argument, or indeed philosophical discourse, continued into the
Nuremberg trials - who to punish?  On the one had, it was clear that many
of the people on trial did what they did (though the degree of involvement
was often disputed).  Indeed, many of the perpetrators of crimes were on
the prosecution!  Inevitably, everyone blamed everyone but themselves.  The
most common people to blame were the ones that were already dead or gone:
Bormann (no one liked him anyway), Hitler, Himmler, etc.  On the other hand,
they blamed the actions on the individualy initiative of people under them.
In the trials, the question of German guilt in general did not come up
(as it would not be very German to blame the population) but there was
a sense of collective guilt within the regime that was played up to excuse
individual guilt.
     And so there are three groups responsible for the Nazi crimes: the
Germans as a whole, the regime as a whole, and the top individuals only.
Today the Germans, for the most part, tend to blame the regime.  Survivors
of the war both at Nuremberg and in subsequent memoirs tried to shift
responsiblity to everyone but themselves - "orders are orders" continued
to be a big claim.  And, of course, the actual individuals who were
"truly", that is whom everyone could agree upon, were conveniently dead.
    On the part of the German people, they would make the various claims
that they were lied to, subdued in the police state, and compelled by
loyalty and love of the Reich to, in the least, keep their mouths shut.
And then, of course, they denied knowing of the more negative events and
seemed to experience a collective amnesia after the war.
    The middlemen had several defences: orders, jobs, loyalty, oaths,
and just forced to do so.  They portrayed themselves as tools, albeit big
and effective ones, of the state.  Thus, Jost, head of an Einstazkommando,
Mueller, Gestapo deputy, and countless other bureaucrats and SS Generals
and state deputies and secretaries recieved relatively small sentences, if
any, compared to the crimes of the time.
    And the higher men like Speer and Goring, blamed both the dead, one another
, and people under them.  Speer makes the case in his memoirs that he tried
to confess to a collective guilt and that he and the other leaders on trial
had to pay for the crimes of the regime and of Germany.  This thread of
seeming self-sacrifice reduces his personal guilt and makes him seem like
a martyr.  Others might have asked (and perhaps did) why they should pay
individually for crimes in which everyone had a part in?
    And that, in the end, is a tough question - who should pay the price?
Is it fair for Speer and Doenitz and Ribbentrop to be the scapegoats for
the entire nation?  Or is it fair for all the Germans to pay for the
crimes of a few?  Or should the average bureacrat pay the price for simply
doing his job, with little recourse, both under the command of people
like Goebbels or Himmler and for the benifit of the German people as a
whole who are not much less guilty than themselves?
    These, I think, are hard questions.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Mar 1995 to 3 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 14 messages totalling 600 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ANNOUNCEMENT
  2. TAC: Africa (was: Wha (2)
  3. China/Japan part 8
  4. Endlosung (was:Is it true that they can trace a single document) (2)
  5. Westerly 5 of 5, Phelps summary (3)
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-MAR-1945
  7. List Active?
  8. QUEST: German Executors (2)
  9. Intelligence on Tirpitz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 01:41:13 -0600
From:    Monte Turner <msturner@UKANAIX.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT

Announcing the "Grand Opening" of

***E-HAWK: The Electronic Headquarters for the Acquisition of War Knowledge***
http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/history/ehawk/

        E-HAWK is the Web's most comprehensive information server on topics
relating to the U.S. military.  Its components include:

* U.S. Military Internet Resources: After extensive researching, we have
compiled a huge catalog of all U.S. military internet sites - including Web
pages, FTP sites, Gophers, even Bulletin Boards!  Try us for pointers to any
publicly accessible (and some restricted) sites maintained by the Department
of Defense.
* Current Events: Up-to-date information on events of military interest,
including pointers to some of the best news services on the Web, Public
Affairs gophers, Usenet current-events and military newsgroups, a catalog of
e-mail discussion lists, and upcoming events announcements.
* Military Science: Still under construction, this section will contain a
range of documents on various aspects of the art of war, including
logistics, tactics, strategy, technology, and intelligence.
* Officers' Club: The recreational side of E-HAWK, including a collection of
graphics, veterans' information, and internet utilities.

And presenting:
***MIL-HIST***
http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/history/milhst/

        It's so big we had to make it a separate page! The military history section
of E-HAWK covers everything from the modern day on back. Incorporating *De
Re Militari*, the classical and medieval military history infoserver of the
De Re Militari association, Mil-Hist has an extensive collection of
documents, bibliographies, and pointers to other military history on-line
resources.  We've even got the archives of the DEREMI-L and MILHST-L e-mail
discussion lists, beautifully HTML'ed for your reading and research pleasure!
        Mil-Hist is conveniently organized in chronological format, with the
following divisions:

* De Re Militari: Classical and Medieval periods, to the 16th century.
* Pre-Nineteenth Century: Including the revolutions in America and France
* Nineteenth Century: Including the Napoleonic wars in Europe, but excluding:
* American Civil War: There's so much material on this war, we had to give
it its own page.
* 1900-1919: The War to End All Wars, the Spanish-American War, the
Russo-Japanese War, and more.
* 1919-1945: The Inter-War years and World War Two.
* 1945-1961: The Early Cold War period and the Korean War.
* 1961-1973: The Vietnam and Arab-Israeli conflicts.
* 1973-Present: Grenada, Afghanistan, and the Gulf War.


        We hope that you will find E-HAWK and Mil-Hist convenient, friendly, and
exceptionally useful. If you have any questions, comments, recommendations,
or requests, please e-mail us at:

(E-HAWK) rufus@falcon.cc.ukans.edu or msturner@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
        or
(Mil-Hist) msturner@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu or jphughes@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

        Thanks... We hope to hear from you soon!


Monte Scott Turner                                             msturner@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
                         De Re Militari - Association Manager
 Assosciation for the Advancement of Classical and Medieval Military Studies
                   Discussion List - Deremi-l@ukanaic.cc.ukans.edu
Information Server - http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/history/deremil/deremain.html
                            Snail Mail: 2913 University Drive
                                    Lawrence, Kansas 66049

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 05:02:00 UTC
From:    John Cantley <j.cantley@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: Africa (was: Wha

What if the Italian and German air groups had maintained some semblance of
air superiority and choked the area between Sicily and Tunis. They tried to
bomb Malta into submission. They maintained some superiority but not for a
prolonged period. If Rommel was actively supported with needed suplies he
could have done much more. If the Axis forces made the Mid-Med area a death
bed for any British naval force in the area. This could have been a great
boost to the abilities of Rommel.

John Cantley

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 15:57:30 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: China/Japan part 8

A small correction.  The first Roosevelt-Churchill conference after the
U.S. entered the war decided that resources would be split 70% (not 90%) for
Europe and 30% for the Pacific.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 04:59:00 UTC
From:    John Cantley <j.cantley@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: Africa (was: Wha

Re: Why was England not targeted first?

Hilter was a lunatic and hooked on drugs?

John Cantley

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 09:30:51 -0500
From:    James Ray Watkins <dawgonpete@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Endlosung (was:Is it true that they can trace a single document)

I'm probably going to regret this... Isn't the problem with German (or
Japanese) guilt that you are trying to assign responsibility to something
that no one person 'did'? In a sense, yes, all of Germany is the guilty
party; and in a sense, too, it was the Nazis. Its difficult to say the
German people 'should' have done this or that, because we know how powerful
the Nazi repression of dissent was. And yet we can't imagine the war being
fought without the 'consent' of the populace. If I may, I would like to
offer another line of investigation from Anthropology.

Its possible to understand 'how it is that a war happens' (and the War, I
think, would include the extermination of the Jews) not only in terms of the
thinking and actions of individuals, but in terms of the thinking and
actions of institutions. It can be hard to get your mind around that idea,
and the analogy to 'individuals' set up by words like 'thinking' is not
quite accurate. This is not to say that individuals are not responsible for
their actions, of course, but to give a particular kind of context to their
choices. The book I am thinking of is called, -How Institutions Think-, by
Mary Douglas (Syracuse University Press, 1986, Syracuse New York).

Douglas even trys to identify (again the analogy is rough) the way
institutions 'forget'- I'm thinking here of what has been called the
'collective amnesia' of Germany. The point is to try to identify a specific
relationship between those organizations whose aims and goals led to the
War, and those others whose aims may have been differant, but didn't, in the
end, stop it. In Douglas' terms, then, there is something much more profound
at work when something like a War happens, something much more dangerous
than the hatred of one group for another. It literally becomes 'impossible'
to 'think' certain things: in Germany, from what these posts have implied,
it was very rare to find anyone, on 'our' side or 'theirs' who could
formulate the notion that the Nazis were actually setting up the
institutions through which they would systematically kill 6 million people.

Consider how difficult it was in the 1800s to find an American who argued
that the US government's policies amounted to genocide, or even that Native
American culture was valuable in its own right. And, in both cases, even
when someone did 'think' the 'unthinkable' (as some did) it didn't become
translated into any of the institutional forms that ressistance might have
taken. Not just 'might' have taken, 'had' to have taken, because just as you
can't fight a war without institutions, no one person could have prevented
the Holocaust, or the destruction of Native American culture. I take the
risk of that last analogy, because I want to point out that it is easy for
us to say that no one in the 1800s could think that way, the anachronism is
obvious. But with soemthing 'closer' to our own time (only 50 years) we tend
to think that the Germans must be held to our standards. And well they
should, but the difficult question remains: what standards can we use?

On the one hand looms relativism and on the other a kind of a-historical and
moral egotism. The failure of the German people was more than the failure of
individuals, it was the failure of individuals to act in concert, a failure
of institutions in the broad sense. I think that what we might do is to
develop an undertanding of the failure of people to take institutional
responsibility. The 'guilt' to be assigned would be the 'guilt' of not
acting in concert; the 'mistake' a problem of our relationships to our
larger organizations. This would enable us to, on the one hand, avoid the
hubris of hindsight, and on the other, to not fall into the trap of ethical
and moral leveling out of responsibility. Clearly cultures and institutions
are not all equal, and just as clearly we have all made our share of
mistakes. The 'right' and 'wrong' we might all agree on is the 'right' and
'wrong' of our actions through and in institutions. Again, this is not to
deny individual responsibility, but to be specific about what you mean by
responsibility.

A couple of points before I duck my head and hide. First, there is some
'common sense' to this idea of institutional responsibilty. The Germans
banned the Nazi party, in part, because there is no other way to get at
banning Nazi thinking. Laws against 'hate crimes' are similar in this way.
And second, I would note that, in some sense, it contiues to be difficult in
some quarters to 'think' that 6 million people (Jews and others) were
sytematically exterminated. That idea, to become 'real' and 'effective' has
had to be, literally, 'institutionalized' in the form of books, museums,
education, television, and so on. Some would argue that, even now, after all
that has happened and all that effort we would still forget unless an effort
is made to prevent it. I agree. And I think that we should judge the
Germans- and ourselves- by the efforts we are or are not making to prevent,
institutionally, this forgetting. And I agree, to end my little speech,
because it is not individuals who are solely responsible for remembering,
but our institutions as well.

My question to this 'institution' of experts and interested listeners like
myself: can you describe for us how instituions of German culture in the
1940s made it difficult to 'think' the 'reality' of the Holocaust?
Ray Watkins
A.I., Department of Rhetoric and Composition
English, University of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 16:06:54 -0500
From:    Cheryl Abdullah <cabdullh@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Westerly 5 of 5, Phelps summary

Here's an easy-going one to end the "series" with my ubiquitous request to
send corrections and comments to my private e-mail address.  There may be
more summaries posted in the future, who knows.  Again my thanks in
advance for the generous support you folks have given in correcting these.

Cheryl                                    cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

-----------------
HUBBARD PHELPS, Photographer's Mate, U.S. Coast Guard
Civilian premilitary occupation:  Transport pilot, Northwest
Airlines, until 1939; fashion photographer, partner of Ralph
Rawlings, (New York) until W.W. II

Awards:  American Theater, Good Conduct; also "the one they
took out of the barrel that said World War II."

Military Experience:  Phelps was a "swabbie" who wore bell
bottom pants.  He joined the Coast Guard and was sent to
boot camp at Manhattan Beach.  When he found out that he
would be sent to Cooks and Bakers School, he got a
lieutenant friend of his to arrange for him to become a
security guard instead.  He went to Connecticut State Police
Academy (Bethany) where he took State Police training.  He
also trained to become Watch Officer for the Captain of the
Port in New York, but instead he applied for and was
transferred to Intelligence photo lab, where he worked for
eight months.

Because he was a nonrated officer, officials changed his
status to Photographer's Mate and transferred him to
Washington, DC, where he worked for the Coast Guard Public
Relations Department.  Most of the time he was a passenger
on a coast-wise cutter that, along with three Navy Patrol
Crafts (PCs), escorted convoys between New York and Key
West, FL, and Key West and Galveston, TX.  During this
period he saw no combat but "if you saw something, you took
a picture of it."  Each Navy and Coast Guard ship had one
photographer on board.  "We did an awful lot of the hometown
work, taking pictures of the crew and the officers."  Phelps
got married during 1942.  He was prohibited from defensive
duties or watches by orders of Admiral Washee of the Coast
Guard, but some skippers had him trained in the use of a
20mm or 50 caliber just in case.  His first priority was to
take pictures.  He spent many of the long hours at sea
getting to know people after asking for background
information to accompany their photos.  He did see
submarines, and a friend of his photographed the sinking of
a German sub.  He also rode a Canadian Corvette out of Cuba
or the Azores.

In 1943, he went to Oran where "The harbor was loaded with
ships....You could just tell that they were preparing for
something, but being a little swabbie, you didn't ask
questions."  While stationed in Oran, he bought French
perfume and had his camera checked out.  "Cameras didn't
last too long, they would get damaged at sea and you
couldn't clean them too well."  He otherwise had little to
do in Oran and avoided contact with the natives, whom he did
not trust.  He pitied the Army guys, "They didn't know what
side the French guys were on and when I was there, they
still didn't know."  He met some acquaintances while in
Oran.  One of them, Edgar Marston of Watch Hill, spoke
fluent French and was serving in the French Foreign Legion.
Phelps later sailed aboard a ship escorting the invasion of
Sicily and, upon arrival there, had his only exposure to
combat.   He saw German bombers flying with their bomb bays
open, some of which flew over and dropped bombs toward his
ship--a scary sight that he photographed.  That particular
release of bombs hit two nearby ammunition ships, and "all
hell broke loose."

After the invasion he was stationed for three months in
Rockland, ME, while assigned to the Air/Sea Rescue
Attachment.  "We would go out every day in the middle of
winter and let the boats ice up and see if they break up or
see how much they could take."  For some reason the
government sent a Florida swamp glider up to Rockland and
two Air Corps boys put skis on it and "went tearing down the
main street of Rockland in the middle of the night.  It was
funny, they were doing about 80 mph with no brakes."

He later went to sea again "on the normal back-and-forth
trip."  He was in Naples for two days after it was taken.
He took many pictures of the wreckage in Naples harbor.
While on liberty, he and two friends happened upon an open
warehouse full of German supplies and uniforms.  Phelps
found a German flight jumpsuit that he tried on.  It fit, so
he took it to use when he went back to flying.  His friends
took a machine gun, he stuck a "very nice" automatic pistol
in his pants, they had drinks, and then his friends were
arrested by MPs on the way back.  Phelps later displayed
this German flight uniform, along with a helmet and goggles
he picked up, at the Westerly "World War II Remembered"
exhibit.

Phelps also picked up a lot of SS collar devices which were
actually made of silver thread.  He knew about the silver
because he studied Hitler as far back as 1936, his interest
being aroused because a friend's son enlisted in a German
military school.  The boy, who several times stood 30-40
feet away from Hitler, called home saying "Dad, I have got
to get out of here.  These people are all crazy....They are
not human."  Phelps also took from Naples about 12 or 15 of
the "German ranks and stuff," which were stolen from his
home around 1992.

Photographers had Subsistence in Quarters (S&Q) and he could
pay to eat with the Navy or the Army.  He preferred to eat
in the Army chow.  "I didn't pay half the time because the
cook could have cared less."  He received rank pay, although
he did get combat duty salary when he was overseas.  After
Italy, Phelps came home.


Audio tape interview:     22 February 1994
Interviewer:              Julia B. Kerr
Written History Editor:   Cheryl Abdullah
                          cabdullh@freenet.columbus.oh.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 16:24:48 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-MAR-1945

On 05-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 9th Army sector, the 5th Armoured Division
takes Orsoy on the Rhine as well as Rheinkamp. The XIX Corps reaches
Rheinhausen. The 3rd Armoured Division enters Cologne. Elements of the
104th Division, advancing east towards Cologne, capture Junkersdof. The
three corps of the 3rd Army cross the Kyll at several points. In Germany,
boys 16 and over are to be enrolled in the regular armed forces.

Eastern Front - Units of the 1st White Russian Front take Stargard and
Naugard. Fierce battles contine in East Prussia and on the northern end of
Latvia.

Philippines - The 37th Division is ordered to garrison duty in Manila. In
the XIV Corps area, the 11th Airborne Division begins operations to open
Balayan and Batangas Bays, south of Luzon. In the I Corps area, Philippine
Guerrilla Forces now control the north coast of Luzon west of the mouth of
the Cagayan River as well as the west coast except for Vigan. The 33rd
Division continues northward toward Baguio and San Fernando, threatening to
close pincers on the Japanese between it and the guerrillas. The 25th
Division completes the mop-up of the Puncan area.

Iwo Jima - The VAC remains in place, improving its current position and
reorganizing for a concerted effort on the 6th.

The Homefront
-------------
United Nations Invitations - The United States has invited 39 nations to
attend the April San Francisco conference to draw up a charter for an
international organization to maintain the peace in the post-war world.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 17:14:13 -0500
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: List Active?

Is this list, WW2 still in operation?

Please reply to me directly.


Thanks for your help,



Max C.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 18:54:44 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Westerly 5 of 5, Phelps summary

Cheryl Abdullah writes:
>
>
> -----------------
> HUBBARD PHELPS, Photographer's Mate, U.S. Coast Guard
> Civilian premilitary occupation:  Transport pilot, Northwest
> Airlines, until 1939; fashion photographer, partner of Ralph
> Rawlings, (New York) until W.W. II
>
> [snip..........]  He was prohibited from defensive
> duties or watches by orders of Admiral Washee of the Coast
> Guard, but some skippers had him trained in the use of a
> 20mm or 50 caliber just in case.  His first priority was to
> take pictures.

Nit-picking: That's properly termed a ".50 calibre", which was the common
term used to represent the standard US heavy machine gun then in service.
This was the Browning M2 and its derivatives, which were usually air-cooled.
In naval service, and in some ground-based anti-aircraft roles, these were
also sometimes water-cooled.  A "50 calibre" (i.e. no decimal point) would
signify a LARGE naval gun.  The 20mm, if you want to be specific, would
have been the ubiquitous 20mm Oerlikon automatic cannon, which was fitted
to naval vessels of all types in either single or twin mounts.


> He spent many of the long hours at sea
> getting to know people after asking for background
> information to accompany their photos.  He did see
> submarines, and a friend of his photographed the sinking of
> a German sub.  He also rode a Canadian Corvette out of Cuba
> or the Azores.
>

Interest: Any idea what the name of the Canadian corvette was?


[snip..........]


Interesting interview, even though he might not have seen as much action as
others you've interviewed.  Do remember: war is 90% (or more) sheer boredom
and 10% (or less) stark terror.....


--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 19:16:26 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Westerly 5 of 5, Phelps summary

Oooops!  Greatest of apologies to all on the list.  Forgot to edit the
mail header before sending my reply out....


--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 18:18:22 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: Endlosung (was:Is it true that they can trace a single document)

        You use a very good analogy to describe how the Germans were
drawn into compliance with Hitler and relate it to how he violated the
Versaille treaty again and again.  I agree that he gradually instituted
his programs in order to lull people into acceptance.  I don't know that
I can accept this as an excuse for not doing anything.  When you talk of
him lulling the British and French into acquiescing to his demands you
imply they did not know where he was heading until he became so overt
with his policies that they couldn't miss it.  I believe they knew where
he was headed, they simply were not willing to take the necessary action
at that time to stop him.  They did not have to acquiesce at Munich or
any other point but they did, all the while fooling themselves and hoping
he would stop and knowing that he almost certainly would not.
        We do the same thing today, only we are not risking a world war.
Everyone knew after the brief fighting in Slovenia that Croatia was next,
and that Bosnia would follow.  Everyone knew from Croatia that atrocities
would be committed in Bosnia but we did nothing.  These are political
decisions based on what we are willing to do, not based on our knowledge
of what events are occuring or are bound to occur.  For this reason we
all have some amount of guilt with regards to this (although Europe
should accept most of it) and likewise the Germans must accept guilt for
their unwillingness to speak out before it reached a point where they
couldn't.  This is why I mentioned Kristalnacht.  I simply feel this was
their last chance to give a significant blow to Hitlers Jewish policies
and they missed it by keeping silent.
                                        Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 21:48:26 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: QUEST: German Executors

Hello all,
    I am working on yet another paper - this one for my Abnormal Psychology
class.  It is going to be a hypothetical case dealing with an immigrant
to the US that was part of one of the Einsatzkommandos.  During the war,
he was responsible for the direct liquidation of some 30,000 people in
the East.
   My theory is that this was a difficult thing to do and would inevitably
carry with it lifetime psychological scars - for some people at least.
Anyone have any good sources on the psychological effects - both immediate
and long term - that the EK individuals experienced?  Incidentally, I am
going to be writing about delayed (fifty year, in fact) Post Traumatic
Stress Disorder.
   Anyone familiar with this mental disorder?  There has been a lot of
literature about it regarding Vietnam Vets; its effects magnified because
of the political atmosphere both there and in the US.  Additionally, it
has gone by other names: shell shock in WWI, combat fatigue in WWII.  It
can have many results: loss of memory, anxiety, and even phobias.
   Thanks in advance.
   By the way, is there something wrong with the list?  I haven't gotten
much today.

William Lippert

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:24:53 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: QUEST: German Executors

I posting this for two reasons.  The first is in response to Mr. William
Lippert's request for informaion of the impact of the activities of the
Einsatzgruppen on their members.  The second is the question of the
culpability and knowladge of the German people as a whole for the
Holocaust.

I suggest "The Final Solution: Origins and Implementation", David
Cesarni, Editor; Routledge, London and New York, 1994.

This is a collection of 17 papers prepared in connection with a
conference on the Holocaust in early 1992, in London.  Almost all the
writers are Jewish scholars of the Holocaust although Mr. Christopher R.
Browning, whose book "Ordinary Men", has been mentioned here, is among them.

For Mr. Lipperts purposes, the notes to each paper contain extensive
references to German and other documents.  I am sure that he can find
some useful things among them.

However, any reader of this book will certainly come to the conclusion
that the German people as a whole, and not just those in the immediate
vicinity of the camps, learned exactly what was happening.  For example,
in a letter that reached the Security Service after it was sent to
Ribbentrop's wife in November, 1944, a private from Saxony asked, inter
alia:

"do you really think we soldiers don't know what bestial murders have
been perpetrated by our SS in Russia?  Where for example are the 145,000
Jews of Lemberg who were there when they were transported little by
little on trucks and shot not far from Lemberg?"

Since at least two thirds of all German soldiers who served in WWII must
have served, at one time or another, on the East Front, it is
inconceivable that if a private knew every else did not know as well.

Regarding the impact the killings had on the members of the
Einsatzgruppen, Himmler visit their operations once and was shaken by
what he saw.  Nevertheless, he steeled himself for the necessary task.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 23:10:38 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Intelligence on Tirpitz

     I've read that the British commando raid against the French port of
Saint Nazaire was conceived and carried out because of fears that the Germans
would move the battleship Tirpitz there to make use of the Joubert drydock.
But I haven't seen anything that indicates whether the Allies had any hard
information that the German navy planned to send it there. Some authors seem
to be suggesting the drydock was targeted on the assumption that Tirpitz very
likely would end up there *some day* because Joubert was the only drydock on
the French coast big enough to handle it.
     So my question is: Did the Allies have any actual intelligence that this
move would be made, or were they just guessing, and if they had intelligence
to that effect, what kind? I would be most grateful if anyone can answer
this, and/or cite sources.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Mar 1995 to 4 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 19 messages totalling 1075 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Intelligence on Tirpitz
  2. Polish resistance
  3. [INF] USAAF 4 MAR 45
  4. [INF] USAAF 5 MAR 45
  5. [INF] USAAF 6 MAR 45
  6. WANT: and WEAP:  Translator needed for Czech halftrack manual
  7. NOST: Re-enactors sought to portray WWII Japanese forces (2)
  8. Greenland P-38F restoration
  9. Battle of the Bulge
 10. Glacier Girl (3)
 11. INF: USN Chronology 03-05-95
 12. Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 3
 13. Gas at Iwo Jima
 14. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-MAR-1945
 15. NOST/VET: Iwo trip question
 16. Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Mar 1995 21:35:36 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

For information about the St Nazaire raid, read:

        THE GREATEST RAID OF ALL.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 11:54:48 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <nechama@BOREALIS.COM>
Subject: Polish resistance

I was just reading a book on the begining of the war and there was a
mention to the Jewish defence of Warsaw when Poland was attacked in 1939.
I have not hear of this before and I would be interested in any information
on the topic that people could send my way.

Thanks,

Nechama Cox
nechama@borealis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 09:29:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 4 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-24s on a sea sweep damage a
destroyer escort in the S China Sea.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 42: In China during the night of 4/5
Mar, 11 of 12 B-29s, staging from Luliang, mine the confluence of the Hwangpoo
and Yangtze Rivers and the Tai-hsing Narrows at Shanghai and 1 B-29s drops
mines at Tungting Lake without loss.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 100 fighter-bombers attack
troop concentrations, villages, roads, tanks, trucks, animal transport, and
supplies along and immediately behind the battlelines running from the SW to
NE across C Burma; Meiktila is largely occupied by forces of the Indian 17th
Division.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 863: 1,028 bombers and 522 fighters are dispatched to bomb targets
in SW Germany; bad weather causes 300+ aborts; 1 B-24 and 1 P-51 are lost:
  1. 373 B-17s are sent to hit the jet aircraft plant at Schwabmunchen (69)
and military vehicle plant and ordnance depot at Ulm (223); 59 hit the
secondary, the marshalling yard at Ulm; targets of opportunity are Reutlingen
(12) and other (1); bombing is by Gee-H; 2 B-17s are damaged beyond repair
and 9 damaged; 3 airmen are WIA. Escorting are 150 of 156 P-51s; 1 is damaged
beyond repair.
  2. 274 B-24s are dispatched but weather prevents them hitting the
primaries; targets of opportunity are Aschaffenburg (18), Tuttlingen (11),
Astadtaach (10), Pforzheim (8), the marshalling yard at Stuttgart (11), the
railroad at Sonaueschingen (10), Stuttgart (50) and other (36); bombing is by
H2X radar with some visual bombing; 1 B-24 is lost and 19 damaged; 8 airmen
are KIA. 139 P-47s and P-51s escort without loss.
  3. 376 B-17s are dispatched but weather prevents them attacking the
primaries; secondary targets hit are the marshalling yards at Ingolstadt (69)
and Ulm (75); targets of opportunity are Ausbuch (1) and other (3); H2X radar
is used for bombing; 2 B-17s are damaged beyond repair and 7 damaged; 17
airmen are KIA. The escort is 172 of 186 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1
damaged beyond repair.
  4. 5 B-17s fly a scouting mission.
  5. 21 of 22 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 864: 1 B-17 and 11 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and
Germany during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, about 180 B-26s, A-20s,
and A-26s strike marshalling yards and a rail junction at Recklinghausen,
Lenkerbeck, and Herne, communications centers at Bruhl, Sechtem, and
Rheinbach, and several other targets including a rail bridge and towns;
weather limits fighter operations; a few fighters fly armed reconnaissance E
of the Rhine River and others fly cover for the XX Corps.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 630+ B-24s and B-17s, with
fighter escort, bomb marshalling yards at Sopron (2 yards) and Szombathely,
Hungary; Knittelfeld, Zeltweg, Graz, Sankt Veit an der Glan and Wiener-
Neustadt, Austria; Zagreb (2 yards) and Lbubljana, Yugoslavia; and several
scattered targets of opportunity; other B-24s, with P-51 escort, drop
supplies in Yugoslavia; F-5s, P-38s and P-51s fly reconnaissance and
reconnaissance escort operations. The 309th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter
Group, moves from San Severo to Mondolfo, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, good flying weather
permits a full-scale effort; medium bombers hit 7 railroad bridges on the
Brenner line and in NE Italy; the Salorno railroad fill receives a
particularly good concentration of bombs; XXII Tactical Air Command P-47s
concentrate on communications targets in the Po Valley, knocking out a span
of the Cittadella railway bridge; Brazilian P-47s blast an ammunition dump at
Villafranca di Verona; during the night of 3/4 Mar, A-20s bomb the bridge and
bridge approaches at Casarsa della Delizia, Ostiglia, and Nervesa della
Battaglia, the radar station at Vignola, and lights, motor transport, roads,
and other targets of opportunity at over 30 places in the C Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 10 B-24s from Guam Island bomb Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima Island; during the night of 4/5 Mar, 3 B-24s make separate
harassment raids on the airfield. Lieutenant General Barney Mc Giles becomes
Commanding General of AAFPOA and Deputy Commander of the Twentieth AF.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 39: A B-29 makes an emergency landing
on Iwo Jima Island; this begins a series of over 2,400 such emergency
landings on the island during World War II. 192 Mariana Islands-based B-29s
are airborne against Musashino (Musashi), Japan but heavy clouds prevent
bombing the primary; 159 B-29s bomb the secondary target, the urban areas of
Tokyo, and 18 others hit alternate targets; 1 B-29 is lost. This aborted try
at Musashino marks the end of XXI Bomber Command's effort to knock out the
Japanese aircraft industry by high-altitude, daylight precision bombing. (The
indirect effect of causing Japanese industrialists to lose confidence in
their supposed immunity from air attacks exceeds the effect of actual bomb
damage to the aircraft industry).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
B-24s bomb Sasa and Likanan Airfields and the town of Zamboanga. On Luzon
Island, B-24s bomb targets of opportunity in the Cagayan Valley, gun
positions, ammunition storage, and targets of opportunity at Antipolo and
Wawa, supply dumps and the town area at Bamban, fortifications on Caballo
Island in Manila Bay, and airfields at Aparri and Tuguegarao. The detachments
of the 431st and 433d Fighter Squadrons, 475th Fighter Group, operating from
San Jose, Mindoro Island with P-38s, return to base at Clark Field, Luzon.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/1428Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 09:36:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 5 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  UC-78, Cessna Bobcat
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 30 B-25s knock
out bridges at Phu Xuyen, Thinh Duc, Phu Ly, Ninh Binh, and Phu Lang Thuong
and damage a bridge at Kep. In China, 2 B-25s, escorted by 8 P-47s, knock out
a bridge at Changtuikuan while 4 bomb Chikhom. 40+ P-51s and P-40s on armed
reconnaissance hit road, rail, and river traffic, town areas, and other
targets of opportunity in French Indochina, the C Yangtze River area, and
elsewhere in S and E China.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 50+ P-47s support forces
of the British 36 Division in the Mogok sector and forces of the Chinese 50th
Division in the Mansam area; 46 P-47s and 12 B-25s hit troop concentrations
in the battle areas and attack supply areas, road traffic, and general
targets of opportunity behind enemy lines. 664 air supply sorties are flown
to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): HQ 52d Troop Carrier Wing
moves from Cottesmore, England to Amiens, France.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 865: 429 bombers and 689 fighters are dispatched to hit oil targets
in Germany; the primary target for the B-17s is the synthetic oil plant at
Ruhland but weather forces them to hit the secondary target; all bombing is
with H2X radar; 1 B-17 is lost:
  1. 233 of 303 B-17s hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at
Chemnitz; targets of opportunity are Plauen (34) and Fulda (9); 1 B-17 is
lost and 15 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. Escorting are 369 of 420 P-51s; 3
P-51s are damaged beyond repair and 1 pilot is KIA.
  2. 120 of 126 B-24s hit the Harburg oil refinery at Hamburg without loss.
The escort is 186 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  3. 27 P-51s attack the marshalling yard at Kreuztal; 1 P-51 is damaged
beyond repair.
  4. 28 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  5. 14 P-51s escort 4 F-5s on a photo reconnaissance mission over Germany.
  Mission 866: 21 of 24 B-24s bomb the Wiesbaden rail station by PFF markers
during the night.
  Mission 867: 9 of 11 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands, France and
Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 565 B-26s, A-20s and
A-26s attack 6 marshalling yards, a communications center, an ordnance depot,
a city area and targets of opportunity with the aim of obstructing
reinforcements and supplies to German forces being pushed back across the
Rhine River; fighters escort the bombers, drop leaflets in the Cologne-Bonn
area, and fly armed reconnaissance over the Ruhr and Hamm-Duisburg area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to supply, escort, and reconnaissance missions. HQ 306th Fighter Wing moves
from Lesina to Fano, Italy; HQ 325th Fighter Group and the 317th and 319th
Fighter Squadrons move from Lesina to Rimini, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s hit lines of
communications in the N Po Valley during the night of 4/5 Mar; results are
generally good; bad daytime weather grounds the medium bombers; XXII Tactical
Air Command fighter-bombers and fighters operate on a greatly reduced scale,
mostly in the C Po Valley, hitting bridges at Casarsa della Delizia, Nervesa
della Battaglia, Ostiglia, and Ostellato, and attacking the town of Vignola.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima Island is
pounded by 11 B-24s from Guam Island; during the night of 5/6 Mar, 5 more hit
the airfield in individual snooper strikes. 22 B-24s from Angaur Island,
Palau Islands, bomb Matina Airfield on Mindanao Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-25s hit San Roque
Airfield on Mindanao Island. On Luzon Island, B-24s with fighter support hit
troops in the Antipolo area while fighter-bombers dive-bomb San Pablo, hit
Fort Drum in Manila Bay, attack troops W of Ft Stotsenburg, and support
guerrilla forces NE of Lingayen Gulf. Targets on Formosa are hit by fighters
on sweeps and B-24s on armed reconnaissance; the fighter sweeps are
especially effective against railroad targets. B-25s hit Zettle Field on Jolo
Island. HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Morotai Island to Samar
Island; the 25th Liaison Squadron, FEAF (attached to Thirteenth AF), moves
from Biak Island, New Guinea to Dulag, Leyte Island with UC-78s and L-5s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/1434Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 09:42:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 6 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A mission to the Kurile Islands is cancelled
due to inclement weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25s bomb Chikhom; about
50 fighter-bombers hit storage, troops, railroad targets, and river and road
traffic around Hankow, along the Pinghan railroad, Kaifeng, Suchow, Hsuchang,
Changsha, Yoyang, Liuyang, and Hengyang, and on railroads from Liuliho to
Chengtung and from Tungpu to Tatung.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 31 P-47s support British
36 Division forces in the Mogok area; 12 B-25s join 60+ fighter-bombers in
striking troop concentrations, road traffic, supply and fuel dumps, and other
targets in the vicinity of the battlefront and in areas close behind enemy
lines. Transport operations continue on a large scale with 663 sorties
completed to forward areas throughout the day.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 868: 12 B-24s drop
leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany during the night. 5 B-24s fly
CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 260+ A-26s, and B-26s
hit Recklinghausen, Siegburg, and Opladen marshalling yards, Siegburg storage
depot, and the town of Bochum as a target of opportunity; weather grounds
the IX and XIX Tactical Air Commands; the XXIX Tactical Air Command
(Provisional) flies alerts and covers the US XVI Corps as it completes a
drive to the Rhine River in the Rheinburg area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather restricts all
operations except reconnaissance and a supply mission, with escort, to
Yugoslavia. The 302d Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, is inactivated
at Ramitelli Airfield, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers pound
communications in the Brenner Pass and hit bridges at Pordenone, Ossenigo,
Enego, Ora, Pizzighetone, and San Ambrogio di Valpolicella; fighters and
fighter-bombers concentrate on close support of the US Fifth Army S and SW
of Bologna; during the night of 5/6 Mar, a few A-20s bomb targets of
opportunity in the Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 11 Guam Island-based B-24s again pound Susaki
Airfield on Chichi Jima Island; 5 more hit the airfield during the night of
6/7 Mar in separate strikes. HQ 15th Fighter Group arrives on Iwo Jima Island
from Hawaii and the air echelon of the 548th Night Fighter Squadron moves
from Saipan Island, Mariana Islands to Iwo Jima with P-61s (there are now 28
P-51s and 12 P-61s on the Iwo Jima).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao
Island, B-24s pound the San Roque and Zamboanga areas. On Luzon Island, other
B-24s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers hit the Antipolo area, bomb Balete Pass and
Ft Drum and Caballo Island in Manila Bay and support guerrillas near San
Fernando. B-25s and P-38s attack Hainan Island and considerably damage Samah
Airfield on the island. Fighters sweeping over Formosa hit the Koshun area.
HQ 347th Fighter Group and the 67th, 68th and 339th Fighter Squadrons move
from San Jose, Mindoro Island to Puerto Princesa, Palawan Island with P-38s
(the 67th and 339th are operating from Morotai Island); the 419th Night
Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command, moves from Middelburg Island, New
Guinea to Puerto Princesa, Palawan (the squadron is operating from Morotai
Island with P-38s and P-61s).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/1441Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 09:47:03 -0500
From:    Lynn Goodhue <LGOODHUE@SMITH.SMITH.EDU>
Subject: WANT: and WEAP:  Translator needed for Czech halftrack manual

Posting this for my husband, Fred Goodhue, on whose behalf I have
joined this list.  Please respond to list, or directly to me at
lgoodhue@smith.edu.  Thank you!
===============
   A New England-based WWII German Re-enactment unit has recently
purchased a 1950's vintage Czechoslovakian halftrack.  It is
essentially the same vehicle as the WWII German SdKfPz 251.  It
will be used for public displays and tactical re-enactments.
   The need, here, is for an individual who could translate
selected portions of the technical manual from Czech to English.
Please let me know if anyone can be of assistance with this
project.  Thanks.

Fred Goodhue (c/o Lynn Goodhue)
lgoodhue@smith.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 09:47:51 -0500
From:    Lynn Goodhue <LGOODHUE@SMITH.SMITH.EDU>
Subject: NOST: Re-enactors sought to portray WWII Japanese forces

Posting this for my husband, Fred Goodhue, on whose behalf I have
joined this list.  Please respond to list, or directly to me at
lgoodhue@smith.edu.  Thank you!
=================
   A WWII United States Marine Corps re-enactment unit was set up
about a year ago here in New England. We collect and preserve
uniforms and equipment from that time period. So far we have
participated in four public displays where we interpret the Corps
wartime experience.
   I am aware of a tactical battle re-enactment that was held in
the Chicago area about seven years ago involving USMC  and re-
enactors portraying Japanese troops.  I am interested in
duplicating that effort here in the Northeast.  I am searching
for any individual or unit that currently portrays Japanese
forces or is interested in developing that impression for a
tactical event sometime late summer 1995.
   Thanks for help on this request.

Fred Goodhue
Williamsburg MA
c/o Lynn Goodhue
lgoodhue@smith.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:01:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Greenland P-38F restoration

As a followup to Dennis Sparks' excellent article on the Grennland
P-38 restoration project:

Bluie West 1 (BW1) was Narsarssuak, Greenland
Bluie West 8 (BW8) was Sondre Stromfjord, Greenland

Narsarssuak (now Narssarssuaq) is at 61-10N and 45-26W; Sondre
Stromfjord (now Sondrestrom AB) is 67-01N and 50-42W.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:20:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Battle of the Bulge

Yesterday, Saturday 4 Mar, WNET, the PBS station in New York City,
broadcast the complete 26 chapters of VICTORY AT SEA.  I remember
my father and I watching this in 1952 when I was 16.  One of the
problems I have with this program is that they paste in any film
they can find.  For example, it is my understanding that the 1st
Marine Division (Reinforced) went into Guadalcanal sans cloth,
camouflaged helmet covers and armed with M1903 Springfields, BARs
and Reising Model 50 or 53 submachine guns yet the episode on this
invasion showed Marines with helmet covers, M1 Garands and M1
carbines.

Perhaps Ben Frank could give us the truth of this operation.  Did
the Marines have cloth helmet covers, M1 Garands, M1 carbines, etc.
and can you give us the lowdown on the Reising gun which I
understand was quickly ditched.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:21:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl

 >        Just recieved the summery of the P-38F restoration project.  While
 >I'm excited to hear that another of these beautiful aircraft will grace us
 >with its presence, I'm disturbed that non-original markings will be applied
 >to it.  As an aviation historian, currently acquiring my Masters Degree in
 >museology, I feel it is of vital importance to preserve historical
 >material as accurately as possible.  This accuracy should be all the more
 >important if, as was stated, this is the only P-38F.  Considering how
 >much money was spent salvaging the aircraft as well as restoring it, it's a
 >shame that the aircraft will not be "truly" original.
 >
 >Michael E. Smith
 >S003MES@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 12:02:00 EST
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl

>        Just recieved the summery of the P-38F restoration project.  While
>I'm excited to hear that another of these beautiful aircraft will grace us
>with its presence, I'm disturbed that non-original markings will be applied
>to it.  As an aviation historian, currently acquiring my Masters Degree in
>museology, I feel it is of vital importance to preserve historical
>material as accurately as possible.  This accuracy should be all the more
>important if, as was stated, this is the only P-38F.  Considering how
>much money was spent salvaging the aircraft as well as restoring it, it's a
>shame that the aircraft will not be "truly" original.
>
>Michael E. Smith
>S003MES@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU

  If Glacier Girl is the only non-original marking on the aircraft, you guys
that are upset, are picking the fly doo out of the pepper.  Cut the
mechanics who are refurbishing this aircraft some slack.  The odds are there
probably are several WWII vets involved in the restoration.  I assure you
the original ground crew who painted her would not mind this new one showing
their pride by painting a new pin-up girl.  For those of you who have never
been on a ground/maintenance crew for a combat aircraft, they have as much
pride, if not more, than the aircrew that fly them in these fighting
machines.  Watch the word "truly original" when it comes to aircraft, is
this when it come off the factory floor, after the first combat damage
repair, at the time of crash?  And every aircraft mechanic I have known will
tell you especially with the older aircraft that there will be many times
some very ingenious engineering done to fix an aircraft in combat. Most
aviation historians tend to concentrate on the machinery and the aircrews,
spend some quality time with the ground crews you won't regret it.  This is
not intended as a flame, just food for thought, there is always someone at
the other end of any complaint.
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 12:31:53 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl

> >        Just recieved the summery of the P-38F restoration project.  While
> >I'm excited to hear that another of these beautiful aircraft will grace us
> >with its presence, I'm disturbed that non-original markings will be applied
> >to it.  As an aviation historian, currently acquiring my Masters Degree in
> >museology, I feel it is of vital importance to preserve historical
> >material as accurately as possible.  This accuracy should be all the more
> >important if, as was stated, this is the only P-38F.  Considering how
> >much money was spent salvaging the aircraft as well as restoring it, it's a
> >shame that the aircraft will not be "truly" original.
> >
> >Michael E. Smith
> >S003MES@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU
>
>   If Glacier Girl is the only non-original marking on the aircraft, you guys
> that are upset, are picking the fly doo out of the pepper.  Cut the
> mechanics who are refurbishing this aircraft some slack.  The odds are there
> probably are several WWII vets involved in the restoration.  I assure you
> the original ground crew who painted her would not mind this new one showing
> their pride by painting a new pin-up girl.  For those of you who have never
> been on a ground/maintenance crew for a combat aircraft, they have as much
> pride, if not more, than the aircrew that fly them in these fighting
> machines.  Watch the word "truly original" when it comes to aircraft, is
> this when it come off the factory floor, after the first combat damage
> repair, at the time of crash?  And every aircraft mechanic I have known will
> tell you especially with the older aircraft that there will be many times
> some very ingenious engineering done to fix an aircraft in combat. Most
> aviation historians tend to concentrate on the machinery and the aircrews,
> spend some quality time with the ground crews you won't regret it.  This is
> not intended as a flame, just food for thought, there is always someone at
> the other end of any complaint.

I've been keeping fairly silent on this issue because both views on it are
legitimate, at least to a degree.

I'm no expert aircraft rebuilder, but I and others have been involved in
the restoration (past, present and future) of a number of aircraft.  The
most substantial one at the moment is an excrutiatingly rare P-51C Mustang,
which is literally a rivet-out rebuild.

All aircraft which are restored to flying condition are never 100% completely
authentic because of certain requirements... Flight instruments, hydraulic
fittings, electrical requirements, required markings (N number), etc.  Most
of these "inauthenticities" are invisible.  The rest are kept to the
most minimum possible.

When the Mustang is completed (just like Miss Mitchell), there will be no
extraneous markings.  There will be information carried with the aircraft in
the form of a plaque which recognizes the individuals and groups who have
played a major part in the restoration.  But that self-recognition will not
be a part of the aircraft itself.  The worst example of an absolutely class
A-1 restoration "ruined" by self commemoration is the Collings Foundation
B-24.  And I support them implicitly.

Painting the name "glacier girl" and adding a nose-art is fairly minor, but
I know I object to it.  If the art is added in the form of a decal that is
90's artwork, then I will object loudly.  If it's a legitimate early 1940's
painted style that _might_ have been added, then I'll think about it.

However, the thing that is always kept in the mind of those restoring an
artifact to "museum quality" is that we are commemorating the men and women
who used or were served by that artifact.  Museums do not use the artifact
to commemorate themselves via the artifact.  When that's done, it's always
in the form of an external plaque indicating where it came from.

Is the addition of non-original nose art and a name a serious problem?  It
depends on what you are trying to accomplish.  We wouldn't do it, because
our goal always comes under the heading of "living museum."  But the
modification may be minor enough in an otherwise excellent restoration to
be "Acceptable."  Just stay away from the desire to "self-commemorate."
That detracts from the whole reason we should be doing what we're doing.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 13:11:32 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: NOST: Re-enactors sought to portray WWII Japanese forces

At seven acres outside of Chicago on Memorial Day they did a few display
abttles--and I think there were a few events at a place called Buffalo
Rock.  The biggest problem with Pqcific Theater events is you ned up
with 100 marines and 5 japanese reenactors.  A friend of mine did
japanese at that event so maybe he could help out some.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 04:00:20 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-05-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/05 Mon.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             LST 641, by collision, Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 110, by Army aircraft,
              Netherlands East Indies area,
              08 d. 36'S., 119 d. 19'E.
             Minesweeper No. 15, by submarine TILEFISH (SS-307),
              north of Ryukyu Islands.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 17:16:55 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 3

        Since I'm close to winding this up, I'd like to briefly sum up the
points I was trying to make, in case they somehow got lost in the blizzard of
details I've been throwing out here.
        The same economic constraints which gave the impulse to Japanese
expansion in the first place also imposed absolute limitations on the nation's
military-industrial capabilities.  In spite of its impressive navy, Japan in
1930-45 was closer to a regional than a world power.  (And remember, at the
start of that period the country was also suffering severely from the
depression, coming after what was already a period of belt-tightening: I made
earlier reference to the hardships engendered by the Minseito party's economic
policy, and Ed Miller pointed out that some Japanese were literally starving
during this period).  Despite their limitations, the Japanese found themselves
at some point or other during this period at war with the world's three
greatest powers in terms of industrial, human, and natural resources-- i.e.,
the US, USSR, and Great Britain with its Commonwealth and Empire.
Additionally, during practically the entire period in question Japan was
involved in trying to control the huge territories and population of China
through covert or open military means.  This was clearly far more than the
Japanese military or economy could handle-- Ienaga, among others, has argued
that even the attempt to dominate China was beyond Japan's resources, and
events appear to have borne him out.
        Considered in more detail, the Japanese military effort was, aside from
the background limitations outlined above, further handicapped by the fact that
such a huge proportion of its limited resources were tied down in the China
campaign throughout the course of hostilities with the west.  Thus the Japanese
were doubly condemned to fight a "poor man's war" against the Americans,
British, et al.  Nonetheless, in their opening campaigns they were able to
utilize the advantages of thorough and meticulous preparations to maximize
their limited means and win a series of lightning victories.  These advantages
included the opportunity to collect thorough intelligence on their targets over
a period of months or even years under peacetime conditions; the possibilities
of concentrating scarce resources for specific operations; the time to complete
thorough staff preparations; and in many cases the ability to provide
specialized training for the forces involved.  Much like a practitioner of many
of the martial arts, they were able to hurt a bigger, stronger opponent
utilizing strategy and skill to strike hard blows in the decisive spot.
However, when this series of often brilliant initial victories failed to bring
the war to a successful conclusion, the inherent limitations of the Japanese
war potential began to be exposed.  Surrendering the initiative to the Allies,
which was the existing  state of affairs by the second half of 1942, deprived
the Japanese of all the advantages described above, since they were no longer
able to choose where and
when to fight, and dispose their limited means accordingly.
When forced to improvise, the Japanese generally proved considerably less
adept, and furthermore, their initial advantage in intelligence also vanished
relatively early.    From Midway on it was the Allies who were able to read the
Japanese codes and anticipate many of their enemy's moves.  The initiative and
strategic and tactical mobility allowed by the Allied, especially the American,
material advantage in ships and aircraft made certain that for the remainder of
the war it was likey that the Japanese were going to be forced into this
posture of reacting, like it or not.
        It will probably take me until next post to explore further how the
Japanese eventually came to deal with this changed strategic and tactical
situatio n, since my VMS is experiencing a major case of the slows, and I'm a
little pressed for time.  Any typos here aare likely a resault of that as well,
since I'm not getting a display as I type this.  So I'd like to take a moment
to deal with a couple of real and potential glaring errors in my recent
postings.I was caught in one major boo-boo, when I referred to a
Roosevelt-Churchill agreement that only 10% of US resources would go the
Pacific (it was, as someone on the list was kind enough to point out, actually
30-70).  I like the fact of having all those potential editors out there to
keep me honest, so I'd like to ask if anyone can help me on another point..  I
think I said that the coastwatchers were instrumental in informing the Allies
about the construction of the Japanese airfield on Guadalcanal, which led to
the landings there (the operation was already in the stages of preparation with
the objective of near-by Tulagi). But then I saw in Liddel-Hart, which I've
been using as a handy refernce, that the airfield was detected by Allied air
reconnaisance.  Can anyone shed some light on this detail?  I can't find my
copy of Graeme Kent's "Guadalcanal: Island Ordeal" which I think was the source
for the stuff about the coastwatchers, but it might have just been crossed
brain cells.  Finally, I want to confess that I don't have biographical details
on Admiral Raizo Tanaka after the spring of 1943, which is  a shame as he was a
pretty interesting officer.. I have read a fair bit about Tanaka 's career
previous to the end of the Guadalcanal campaign, enough to know that he was the
Japanese Navy's chief expert on troop transport and transport protection, kind
of the Japanese Kelly Turner.
        Oh, yes, and I wanted to clear up some ambiguous sentence structure in
the last post to explain that the Japanese 36th Division did not actually join
the 18th Army in New Guinea, but rather was posted independently to Wakde
island near New Guinea's northwest tip, and to some adjacent islands and
coastal areas of New Guinea itself.  Here the division fought many actions
against MacArthur's forces in the late spring-early summer of 1944.

        Well, I have to break off, its just too irritating to have to type like
this.  Will try again soon.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:43:37 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Gas at Iwo Jima

In the book _Iwo Jima_, Richard Newcomb, it is stated on pages 204-205 of my
paperback copy, that the use of gas was considered at Iwo.  According to
the book, a report written by Major General John Sydney Lethbridge
recommended that the transmitter at Iwo Jima be jammed and then the
island was to be soaked with gas shells.  Part of the plan was to change
the yellow banding on gas shells so that the gunners would not know they
were firing gas shells.  Supposedly Nimitz was for it, but it was
denied by FDR.  Newcomb also says that neither Japan nor the US had
signed the Geneva Convention outlawing gas.  Anybody know more about
this?

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 19:42:26 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-MAR-1945

On 06-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the British 43rd Division
prepares for the final offensive on Xanten. The Canadian 3rd Division takes
Sonsbeck. In the U.S. 9th Army sector, Operation Grenade comes to an end;
with the XVI, XIII and XIX Corps moving up to the Rhine. In the 1st Army
sector, the offensive against Cologne continues with the 3rd Armoured
Division attacking from the north and the 104th Division from the south. In
the 3rd Army sector, the offensive along the Kyll continues.

Eastern Front - Troops of the 2nd White Russian Front complete the
reduction of Grudziadz, a key point in the German defence system on the
lower Vistula in Poland. The 1st White Russian Front makes substantial
gains in northern Pomerania, where Belgrad is cleared.

Philippines - I Corps is ordered to speed action toward the Balete
Pass-Sante Fe-Imugan area.

Iwo Jima - After the most intensive massed artillery preparation of this
operation, supplemented by naval gunfire, the VAC renews efforts to break
through to the O-3 line but is still so bitterly oppossed that progress is
negligible. Elements of the 3rd Marine Division achieve the most gain in
the center, about 200 yards. Progress on the flanks is limited to 100 yards
or less. Seventh Air Force fighters land on Airfield 1 to support ground
operations.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 17:08:37 -0800
From:    Chris Albee <cea@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: NOST/VET: Iwo trip question

A pretty specific plea:

If anyone knows of any Iwo Jima veterans from New Hampshire who are going on
next week's trip to Guam and Iwo, please get in touch.   I would love to know,
as my dad may be going, and a NH paper may commission him to write an
article.  They had asked him if anyone from NH was going, which would
make it more interesting to their local readers.

Are any list members going?

If he goes, I'll try to report after he gets back, if there is interest.

Thanks!
cea

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 22:27:49 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 4

        Ah, that's better.  VMS' arteries have unclogged.
        When I mentioned in my previous, aborted post that the preparation for
the successful early Japanese offensives included thorough staff work, I meant
not only in regard to tactical considerations, but even more so regarding
logistics, an area the Japanese often neglected.  An example would be the
Malaya campaign which I have often cited as the Japanese Army machine operating
at peak efficiency.  One case in point was the special training and equipment
of the three engineer regiments in 25th Army, who came to specialize in bridge
construction and repair.  Each regiment, among other things, had at its
disposal 20 heavy trucks to carry construction materials and heavy equipment
for this purpose.  Tsuji also praises the special efforts of the Army's
railroad repair and maintenance unit, which apparently also was very well
prepared for its tasks in this campaign.
        I should mention in regards to prominent Japanese staff officers Col.
Tokushiro Hattori.  Hattori was head of the operations department at Imperial
General HQ from the start of the war until December 1942, then again from
October '43 to August '44 (in the period between he served as secretary to the
War Minister, the same job Saburo Hayashi, to whose book I have often referred,
held in August '45).  Hattori personally took charge of developing the plan
for breaking through the Bataan defenses in April '42, a battle which went off
more or less like clockwork-- after bombing attacks and a barrage by 150 guns
and howitzers against two and a half miles of ridgeline (which American WWI
veterans in the Bataan defenses called worse than the Argonne in that previous
conflict famed for its dense artillery concentrations) the Japanese troops were
able to virtually walk through the defenses in many sectors.   Hattori was also
considered one of the Army's leading experts on naval matters, and held a
number of posts involving liason with the Navy or acting as naval consultant in
Army councils.  In February 1945 he was assigned to command an ordinary
infantry regiment, the 65th, in China, and survived the war.
        One other important point about staff preparation-- and although I've
mentioned it before the importance of this cannot be overstated in regard to
the Japanese-- is the fact that only the top 10% of Japanese officers received
the advanced staff training that was usually a prerequisite for high command.
These men were, in general, serious students of the art of war, with a solid
grounding in logistical and strategic realities.  The other 90%, most of whom
could not realistically expect more than, with luck, to retire as colonels
after a few decades of service, tended to be far less imbued with analytical
skills.  Among this majority of Japanese officers who populated the middle
and lower ranks of the officer corps, there was a strong tendency to give
prominence to spiritual and moral factors over the material.  Just like the
Japanese folk hero Musashi Miyamoto, the great swordsman and philosopher who
once fought a hundred men singlehanded and won (and who was, by the way, a
real historical figure from the early period of the Tokugawa shogunate-- a
historical novel about Musashi published in the pre-war years has been called
the Japanese "Gone With The Wind," not least because of its unprecedented
popularity), these men believed that if their spirits were pure and brave they
could triumph even against prohibitive odds-- and that, failing that, they
would at least find the repose of a hero's death.  Thus having the services of
staff officers like Hattori or Tsuji available in general greatly improved the
chances of proper preparations and dispositions, while local initiatives by the
field officers of the type just described were more likely to result in "bamboo
spear tactics."  I should mention that perhaps Tsuji's widespread appeal and
influence in the Japanese Army was due to the fact that he combined aspects of
both personalities.  He was a quite competent and well-trained staff officer,
but he was also very emotional, very concerned with the spiritual qualities of
the warrior mind, and able to inspire those emotions in others.  Tsuji's
aggressive personality enabled him to pull off outlandish stunts and get away
with them.  For instance, early in the Malaya campaign, having returned direct
from the battlefield, unhappy with one aspect of the support the forward
elements were receiving, he stormed into the quarters of General Sosaku Suzuki,
Yamashita's chief-of-staff (and of course Tsuji's superior), and began to
violently upbraid the general for being in his pajamas while there was a battle
going on.  Rather than reprimand Tsuji for his rude and abusive behavior,
Suzuki, apparently shamed, hurriedly changed into his uniform so he could
listen to Tsuji's complaints.  Need I stress that with the Japanese system of
subordinates often having the most input into the actions carried out under the
name of the figurehead commanders, the men who thought more of moral force than
physical possibilities often had considerable influence in the field.
        All the moral force in the world was not, unfortunately for the
Japanese, able to overcome the superior material resources of the Americans in
most cases.  Last post I spoke of Adachi's 18th Army and its assaults around
Aitape.  Their dedication was admirable.  After moving beyond the scope of the
18th Army's interior communications, they forced their way through 90 miles of
dense jungle to reach the American positions, taking a month in the effort and
living on half rations.  Their assaults were courageous and fierce, and at
times their tactics appear to have been pretty good at the local level.  They
forced many small American withdrawals in 25 days of attacks, at one point
actually made a breakthrough and cut off most of a US regiment, which was
surrounded for four days before relieved.  But, seriously short of both trained
infantry and ammunition, and almost entirely lacking in artillery support,
Adachi's men could not by mere spirit triumph over their material shortcomings.
They lost almost half their force in a month, and the survivors were never
really a factor in the subsequent fighting on New Guinea-- a whole army was
thrown away in a splendid but ultimately useless gesture.  Of course, Adachi
didn't have a whole lot of choices-- fight his way out or starve-- and he chose
the most courageous path.  But the simple fact that American air and naval
resources, by making moves like MacArthur's Hollandia hop possible, could and
did put bypassed Japanese forces like 18th Army in untenable circumstances, was
tantamount to admission that superior material had largely rendered the
Japanese strategic and tactical position hopeless.
        The end game of the campaign in the Solomons and around Rabaul was a
further illustration, and also a demonstration of the war-winning potential of
the US Navy "Magic" intercepts and other codebreaking efforts.  Even Kusaka's
naval units were at last coming to be overwhelmed in these waters.  The
Bougainville landings at Empress Augusta Bay led to another naval scrap between
evenly-matched forces of US and Japanese light cruisers and destroyers.  But
the Americans were learning, and the four new US cruisers avoided the "Long
Lance" torpedoes launched at them in this action, while giving a gunnery clinic
that sank the Japanese light cruiser SENDAI and a destroyer without loss.  But
this was just a warm-up for a more serious riposte against the November '43 US
landings,  Koga's operation "Ro-Go."  Koga dispatched to Rabaul a force of
seven heavy cruisers, one light cruiser, and four destroyers.  They were
supposed to slip in and ravage the Allied fleet under Halsey which was
covering the landings, but whose two carriers had no ships heavier than a light
cruiser to protect them.  But US codebreakers, who deciphered a message
confirming the ships' arrival at Rabaul, alerted Halsey to the danger.  Halsey
was, well, something that rhymes with "Halsey."  Although he looked bad later
in his career, leaving San Bernardino strait uncovered at Leyte Gulf and in
1945 sailing his fleet right into a destructive typhoon, his guts and
aggressive instincts served the Allies well in the Solomons.  Halsey knew his
only chance was to hurt the enemy cruisers before they left port, when they were
still easy to find and relatively easy to hit.  He launched all his carrier
planes to raid Rabaul, even though Allied estimates put the Japanese air
strength there as high as 150 planes (probably an overestimate, as it turned
out).  Fortune favored the Americans.  Rain and heavy clouds covered the US
carrier force, shielding it from detection by Japanese air reconnaisance.  But
Halsey managed to launch his own planes, and the weather over Rabaul was clear.
The operation was a success, three of the heavy cruisers and three destroyers
being damaged, and Koga was forced to scrap "Ro-Go."  As at Midway, luck had
played an important role in saving the American carriers, but the success of
the US codebreakers had put them in the position to be lucky.
        The last act of the Solomons drama was the landing of US forces on Cape
Gloucester, at the other end of New Britain from the Japanese base of Rabaul
(and where the Japanese were constructing a new airfield).  The Marines started
coming ashore on Christmas 1943.  The superior Allied mobility put the Japanese
in the same quandary once again.  They could either allow the Americans their
new base, or they could struggle through miles of virgin jungle to try to
attack them, allowing the enemy the advantage of the defender.  Essentially,
they left the Americans their lodgement, although they did dispatch forces to
engage, but not on the same scale as at Bougainville.  Weather, with incessant
rain, caused more problems than the Japanese-- I've read a couple of references
to the fact that at least 30 Americans were killed by falling trees, the sodden
ground being too liquified for the root structures to hold the large trees
upright.  Rabaul, the once-powerful base which held as many as 100,000 Japanese
military personnel, was simply left to wither on the vine.  Its defenses
against landings were reportedly quite formidable-- but the landings never
came.  Instead there were air attacks and progressive starvation, as the war
simply passed Rabaul by, and its Japanese defenders with it, another monument
to the success of the "island-hopping" strategy.
        The hour is late and I'm tired so will pick up the thread tomorrow.
Still to come, the change in Japanese tactics for fighting amphibious landings
(as evidenced by the contrasting battles of Biak and Saipan in June '44) and a
word or two about Japanese forays into high-tech, plus my promised final
appendix.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Mar 1995 to 5 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 21 messages totalling 1321 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gas at Iwo Jima (3)
  2. Patton biography
  3. QUEST: German Executors
  4. INFO ON USN BATTLE
  5. Battle of the Bulge
  6. HIST: PTSD
  7. 50TH: THREE DAY PARIS PASS (2)
  8. Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge) (2)
  9. Educating the young
 10. Glacier Girl
 11. Intro to list
 12. [INF] USAAF 7 MAR 45
 13. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-MAR-1945
 14. TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS (2)
 15. GAS AT IWO JIMA
 16. Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Mar 1995 21:11:08 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Gas at Iwo Jima

'Dont know about the circumstances on Iwo Jime, but it is a fact that some
Japanese units in Burma used gas hand-grenades. These weapons were German-
made. Probably given to the Japs for "combat testing". British troops
reported being attacked by gas hand-grenades in 1944.
However, there were only a few isolated incidences of their use.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 07:32:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Hello, Matt!

Glad it was of some assistance. If you need anything else, please let
me know.


All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 07:38:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: German Executors

Hello, William!

I associate this trauma with the Bataan Death March survivors. Much
work has been done in this area. You might contact a VA hospital, if
one is nearby, for some info.

Hope this helps.

All the best.


Terry

 Post Traumatic
> Stress Disorder.
>    Anyone familiar with this mental disorder?  There has been a lot of
> literature about it regarding Vietnam Vets; its effects magnified because
> of the political atmosphere both there and in the US.  Additionally, it
> has gone by other names: shell shock in WWI, combat fatigue in WWII.  It
> can have many results: loss of memory, anxiety, and even phobias.
>    Thanks in advance.
>    By the way, is there something wrong with the list?  I haven't gotten
> much today.
>
> William Lippert
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:44:59 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO ON USN BATTLE

>I have to correct you on one fact, Ron. Battle stars on combat ribbons were
>bronze. The silver star represented five awards. So a person with one silver
>star and a bronze star would indicate that for the Asiatic-Pacific campaign
>ribbon, for example, the individual wearing the ribbon participated in six
>campaigns. For personal decorations, if you received five of a Navy Cross, for
>example, you would wear a gold star--gold and silver stars are larger than the
>bronze star, by the way. For the naval services, the guide to decorations is
>the "Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual," which is always in a state of being
>updated. Ben Frank


Thanks Ben, I was unsure of the actual difference between a bronze and
silver battle star and was hoping that someone would jump in to rescue me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:00:35 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Battle of the Bulge

.
>
>Perhaps Ben Frank could give us the truth of this operation.  Did
>the Marines have cloth helmet covers, M1 Garands, M1 carbines, etc.
>and can you give us the lowdown on the Reising gun which I
>understand was quickly ditched.
>

Reising Submachine Gun

        This weapon was designed by Eugene Reising and manufactured by the
Harrington & Richardson Comapny for the US Marine Corps between 1941 and
1945.  Its was an unusual and unnecessarily complex design, firing from a
closed bolt and using 12 or 20-round box magazines.  While the design was
technically sound, it was not well thought out from the combat point of
view, and in service the gun was found to be extremely sensitive to dirt
and dust, often jamming at inopportune moments.
        The greater part of the production of the Reising submachine gun
was taken by the US Marine Corps and it was extensively used by them in the
campaigns of the South Pacific.  The British government also purchased a
small number.  However, it was not popular and was eventually relegated to
be used as a training weapon and for use with the USA by factory guards and
police forces.

from Encyclopedia of World War II editor John Keegan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:18:07 -0500
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: HIST: PTSD

My wife, a Vietnam veteran, is a psychiatric nurse practitioner at a VAMH.
Most of her patients (sorry, they now call them "clients") are Vietnam vets
suffering this condition (she does have a goodly number, as well, who are
WWII and Korea vets with similar problems; e.g., one WWII combatant had had no
apparent problems till Reagan made his visit to the Bitburg cemetary ... he
thereafter began flashbacks to the Battle of the Bulge).

If you have specific questions, I'll be happy to pass them to her.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:32:24 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: THREE DAY PARIS PASS

  Oslo, March 6, 1995
  As readers of my messages know, I passed up no opportunity to get a
respite from the war.  The highlight was a trip to Paris, shortly
after we broke through the Siegfried Line.
  Usually, I shaved and cleaned up before returning to the 29th Field
Artillery Battalion headquarters from my job as liaison officer to an
infantry battalion.  However, on one occasion I did not, because I was
so furious after a radio team from battalion that I was relying on to
relay messages went to sleep.
  The net result of this performance was that my battalion commander
decided I needed a rest and gave me a three day pass to Paris.  Here
is the letter I wrote home about this:

          Dear Folks, February 23, 1945, Germany

          Let me begin with a report on my recent pass to Paris. We
          left our units in Germany at about 0900 February 16. From
          there we went to division rear, where all the men from the
          various units of the division collected. By the time I reached
          there, I was thoroughly ill - a result of several weeks of GIs
          and a rough ride in a two and a half ton truck.
          Nevertheless, I was on my way and not about to turn back.

          Perhaps you wonder how I got this pass. Well, behind it is
          quite a story. You see, I'll go sometimes for weeks without
          seeing anyone back at our battalion CP. This time varies
          with how long a particular fight lasts. Sometimes during a
          fight there either isn't time or one doesn't feel like washing
          or shaving. However, before I go back to battalion I always
          clean up. The other day, however, I went back without
          shaving.

          You see, when you come back looking fresh, everyone says,
          "Well, you all are really living the life of Riley, aren't you?"
          However, when I went back looking worn and haggard,
          everyone said, "It must be rough up there. You need a rest,
          Aus. I've never seen you look so bad."

          Two days later I received orders to report back to battalion
          to go to Paris.

          Well, anyway we started out for the city. I stretched out in
          the back of a truck, went to sleep, and by the time we got
          there the next noon I felt much better.

          In Paris the Red Cross billeted us at the Washington Club,
          or Hotel Louvre, which is at the opposite end of the street
          from the Opera. The afternoon was spent in cleaning up and
          planning the next several days.

          But let me tell you about the hotel itself. A Capt. Miles,
          from our division headquarters, and I shared a double room,
          with private bath. The room would compare favorably with
          one in the New Yorker or Pennsylvania in New York. On
          each floor was a "key girl" who kept the room keys. As an
          additional service, she would sew insignia, etc. on your
          clothes for you.

          The dining room served breakfast from 0800 to 1000, lunch
          from 1200 to 1400, supper from 1800 to 2000. The food
          was quite good and, while the portions were not too
          generous, one could get seconds. Between meal hours, the
          donut bar was open, where one could get donuts and coffee.

          In the hotel lobby, there an information desk operated by
          French women volunteers who speak English - and,
          incidentally, have a good knowledge of the city.

          Now to our first evening in Paris. Really no more exciting
          than an evening in any large city. We went by metro
          (subway) from Palais Royal to Pigalle. Pigalle is one of the
          less desirable sections of Paris. We went to the Club Moulin
          Rouge, which is described by some as a clip-joint. And it is.

          A glass of orange juice to use as a chaser cost 80 francs
          ($1.60). A bottle of champagne 1000 francs ($20). Capt.
          Miles and Lt. Parker, who is one of the engineer officers that
          works with our infantry regiment, and I took in the floor
          show and somehow acquired some very friendly girls.

          No doubt you will wonder at this. Well, you need not, for
          there is no woman shortage in Paris. One can walk the five
          squares from the Hotel Louvre to the Opera and will be
          stopped no less than fifteen times. In bars or clubs they
          swarm about like flies. Their price is a package of cigarettes,
          chocolate bars, or, if you insist, money.

          About five came over to the table. We offered them drinks.
          They accepted. In no time at all they had drunk all our
          scotch. Even that was all right, but when they started to
          quarrel among themselves as to which of them would take
          which of us home with them and two girls came to blows,
          we decided it was time to leave.

          Sunday morning we got up at eight, had breakfast, and
          went on a tour of the city. Saw the tomb of Napoleon at the
          Hotel des Invalides, the Eifel Tower, the Louvre, Notre Dame,
          Place de la Concorde (location of the Tate's and my
          experience last summer), Arc de Triomphe, etc. Very
          interesting tour.

          In the afternoon Parker and I went to the opera, seeing
          Rigoletto. The performance was quite good, but the settings
          were positively out of this world. I've never seen anything as
          good.

          The opera house itself is reportedly the largest theater in the
          world; certainly it is the most beautiful I've ever seen. Large
          staircases, imposing chandeliers, excellent murals. Really
          very impressive.

          There's one thing though that really gets you, not only at
          the opera but in all of the city. That is the emphasis on
          tipping. Boy, they're really tip conscious.

          Sunday evening we went to the Folies Bergere.

          Monday morning I slept. In the afternoon, I ran into Marlene
          Dietrich, and I mean ran into her. When going into the
          officer's clothing store, she was coming out the door I was
          going into. A violent collision, apologies, and she went on.
          I didn't. I turned around to stare. They're not worth a
          million dollars, but nearly!

          In the evening, we made the rounds of the bars. The others
          met girls to whom they took a fancy. I returned to the hotel
          about midnight. (Damn it, why did I have to receive such
          Puritanical rearing?)

          Tuesday morning I did a little shopping at the Louvre
          Department Store, through which one could stroll for hours.
          In the afternoon I had my picture taken. Then back to here
          in Germany.

          Love, John
          END EXCERPT FROM LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:46:26 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

Dear Jack,

Re Victory at Sea: "any film they can find" ain't the half of it.
My favorites are in "Midway is East," the third episode, where half
of the battle of Midway is from the fictional Coral Sea battle in
the movie "Air Force," the Japanese carrier gunners are shooting
down Japanese aircraft off Leyte in 1944, and the account of the
success of the American dive bombers is illustrated with multiple
shots of TBF torpedo launches. Maybe that's the real secret of the
American victory- hidden squadrons of TBF/TBMs off a (time-travelling?)
carrier group. The series producers did find some great shots of
armed TBDs taking off, though. These could have been authentic.

Regards,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:55:12 -0500
From:    Howard Holden <Howardhol@AOL.COM>
Subject: Educating the young

My name is Howard Holden.
I am an intern at an educational branch of Turner Broadcasting Systems (you
know, TBS, the folks who bring you the Cartoon Network and Beverly
Hillbillies reruns).
Turner Adventure Learning (TAL) pipes live shows into class rooms and allows
kides to send in questions via this amazing new medium.
We also hold online forums for kids with experts in various fields.
We have a project coming up in May centered around VE Day, and we are looking
for individuals who might spend some online time with the youngsters.  We
would especially like personal accounts of WWII and VE Day.
Anyone interested?  I have to mention, we can't pay.
Please e-mail me privately, and thanks for the time.  I'm sorry to clutter
your list.

Howard
Howardhol@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 14:13:46 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

It wasn't just victory at sea.  I recall seeing a program on one of A&E's
military oriented series.  The announcer was describing the sinking of
a Japanese battleship (the Yamato?) but the film footage was of a
WW I Austrian battleship capsizing after having torpedoed by Italian
torpedo boats.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 14:13:48 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: THREE DAY PARIS PASS

On Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:32:24 +0100,
JOHN AUSLAND  <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO> wrote:

>  Oslo, March 6, 1995
>  As readers of my messages know, I passed up no opportunity to get a
>respite from the war.  The highlight was a trip to Paris, shortly
>after we broke through the Siegfried Line.

John,
   Great post. Shows there was life other than in the trenches. Thanks for
the insight.
  If I remember correctly, you stated your "Memiors" was already out of
print. Are there any plans for a new edition or do you know of any stores
that may have retained a copy that I may purchase or did you ever perfect
the "electronic" edition? (love those run on sentences)
   Let me know and keep the "memories" coming...
                                            Mike Oaks

/====================================================================\
|    Michael A. Oaks                                                 |
|    Systems Analyst                  Music: A means to mark times   |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu              stepping stones through |
|    Kennesaw, Georgia 30144                 your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404)423-6049  Fax (404)423-6541          ~ ~ ~ ~      MAO |
|    VWAR-L #146 - - (Sgt. USAF = / AFCS / AFSS / AFDC)              |
|    Break, Break...Kadena, Kadena, Clark, Clark, Request you echo...|
|    (Some things you never forget...even after 25 years...)         |
\====================================================================/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 15:13:39 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Gas at Iwo Jima

John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU> writes:
> In the book _Iwo Jima_, Richard Newcomb, it is stated on pages 204-205 of my
> paperback copy, that the use of gas was considered at Iwo.  According to
> the book, a report written by Major General John Sydney Lethbridge
> recommended that the transmitter at Iwo Jima be jammed and then the
> island was to be soaked with gas shells.  Part of the plan was to change
> the yellow banding on gas shells so that the gunners would not know they
> were firing gas shells.  Supposedly Nimitz was for it, but it was
> denied by FDR.  Newcomb also says that neither Japan nor the US had
> signed the Geneva Convention outlawing gas.  Anybody know more about
> this?

        I cannot answer this particular question but I've read that it
was also (or more accurately, previously) considered at Biak in 1944.
This comes from the the January 1991 issue of "World War II", a bi-monthly
publication.  MacArthur wanted to seize the island of Biak off the
northern coast of New Guinea in order to use its airfields for the
invasion of the Philippines and also to bottle up the Japanese on New
Guinea.  The Japanese defense strategy on the island was to use the
caves overlooking the airfields to keep the Americans from capturing
the airfields and, if they did, to keep them from using them.

        After about four weeks of fighting, with only one airfield
captured but unusable, Eichelberger, the second commander of the Task
Force "briefly considered the use of poison gas against the enemy, but
was dissuaded by the objections of his own staff."  Unfortunately, this
line is so vague that I cannot determine how seriously this was considered.
It does make me wonder what kind of latitude field commanders had
concerning the use of poison gas.  I inferred from the quoted line
above that Eichelberger had the gas readily available and that he did
not require authorization from some higher authority in order to use
it; only the arguments of his staff persuaded him not to use it.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Hey!  Did you lose my aerial photographs?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 16:09:37 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gas at Iwo Jima

One must also wonder what kind of gas.  I would guess mustard gas
rather than one of the nerve agents???
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 15:14:25 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl

> Is the pilot of this P-38 still alive? Why doesn't someone ask him
> about the name, assuming he (she?) was not just a ferry pilot. If the
> plane was unnamed, the pilot was taking it into combat, and he approves
> the name, why would it be inauthentic to use it- it's not made up out
> of whole cloth, but is a legitimate part of this aircraft's individual
> history. In effect, this plane is being returned to service on public
> relations duty, and "Glacier Girl" is part of its reinstallation.
> I specifically note that I don't suggest this for other restorations,
> most emphatically when the markings bear no relation to the actual
> service history of the type, but I think this is a special case,
> such cases should be considered individually, and so long as the
> application of the design conforms with WW II practice (Robert
> Granvin's point) is acceptable. Just my .02.

This is essentially why I personally waffle a bit on the issue.  I would
still prefer it not be applied, but it can be construed as acceptable, even
to the purist.  :-)

Whether the pilot is around or not is probably immaterial as this was a
ferry flight.  No real history or purpose had yet been established for
the aircraft.

Where my primary red-alert goes off was with the question of self-recognition.
I do not believe, even in this case, that nose art and a name should be
applied as a way to recognize the mechanics and others who rebuilt the
aircraft.  If it makes the mission of the aircraft a bit easier, however,
in this unusual situation, then it's OK.

As far as self-recognition, we do it all the time with our aircraft.  When
our B-25 shows up at an airshow, everything around it says Southern Minnesota
Wing and Confederate Air Force.  We talk about the history of the plane, but
we also talk about what it takes to do this kind of restoration.  The key,
however, is the realization that we're talking about "around the airplane."
With the exception of a small plaque in the nose (unobtrusive and removable
without any damage to the aircraft's authenticity) and the N number that the
FAA requires, the aircraft is as pure as we can make (and that work
continues).  If the aircraft itself commemorated ourselves, and not the
history it's supposed to represent, then we did something wrong.

(When it was mentioned to cut the mechanics some slack, there is no rush more
pronounced than watching something you spent a lot of time working on finally
operate -- and, unlike most people -- those that worked on it usually get to
take part in the operations to the point where it actually can get _boring_ :-)

That's basically where I differ on the issue and still revolves around the
question of "why are you doing this?"  You can do the exact same thing for
both good reasons and wrong reasons.  :-)

So on "Glacier Girl," I remain with mixed emotions, but confident that the
right reasons are the driving force.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 16:30:00 -0400
From:    John Baxter Jones <JONESJB@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Intro to list

Good Afternoon, Everyone,
     Just wanted to introduce myself as a newby on the wwii-l list. My
name is John Baxter Jones; I am a member of the Social Studies Dept.
faculty at Watauga High School, Boone, NC.
     I teach World History (standard fare) and Peace & War (warfare cause
and effect/international relations), a course I, fortunately, was allowed
to develop based upon a lifetime fascination/interest/study of warfare and
my own experiences gained from 2 tours in Vietnam, 1966--'68, with the 4th
Inf. Div. (1st tour) and 25th Inf. Div. (2nd tour).  Also conduct guest
lectures (upon request) at nearby Appalachian State University (Death &
Dying classes and ROTC leadership classes).  I am presently wrapping-up
the rough draft of a novel based upon my experiences in Vietnam.
     My Dad, TSgt. Earl Thomas Jones (1922--1979) was a veteran of the
Pacific Theatre, WWII; serving 1942 thru 1946 (3rd Army Air Corps
<Southeast U.S.>; 13th Army Air Corps <Southwest Pacific>; and Occupation
Forces, Japan), and thus, the stimuli for my nearly 40 years of study of the
phenomena.  My earliest memories of my Dad (when I was 3-4 years
old) were of he and my uncles (European Theatre veterans) sitting around a
campfire, late on brisk coon hunting nights, sharing the stories of their
individual wartime experiences, some funny...most not, and me sitting at
their feet, totally fascinated by these guys who would remain my heroes
for a lifetime.
     They spoke not in boast nor braggadocio, but in almost reverential
tones of the things they had seen and took part in.  Throughout those
years until I went off to war, myself, Dad taught me..made sure I knew..
that there was no glory in warfare,..only death, carnage, and
destruction; but he also taught me that every one must share in the
defense of our freedoms and our principals and that I would do my part
when the time came.  I knew as early as 5 years old that I would serve in
the U.S. military, in some capacity, in the future...it was a given..
Despite the many controversies surrounding the role of America in
Vietnam, I'm glad I served...I was allowed to walk in my Dad's shoes.
That was enough for me.
     I hope I can make a contribution to this list, but, moreso, I want
to learn from the combined knowledge that is apparent here.


Respectfully,

John B. Jones

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 7 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands; 8 B-25s, dispatched to
strike a reported convoy, abort due to weather; so do 8 B-24s after departing
on a shipping sweep and a strike on Kataoka, Shimushu Island.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25s and 9 P-40s blast
railroad targets N of Kiaotow; single B-25s hit truck convoys in the Hsiang
River Valley, the waterfront at Changsha, and a bridge and other targets of
opportunity on the Pinghan railroad; 130+ fighter-bombers attack numerous
targets throughout S and E China, concentrating on railroad, road, and river
targets in the areas around Nanking, Yoyang, Sintsiang, and Changsha.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30 P-47s support troops of
the British 36 Division in the Mogok area; 18 others support elements of the
Chinese 50th Division near Mansam; elements of the Chinese 38th Division
occupy Lashio; 12 B-25s and 35 fighter-bombers attack road targets, troops,
vehicles, and a variety of targets of opportunity immediately behind enemy
lines. Transports fly 630 sorties supplying forward areas with men and
equipment.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 869: 946 bombers and 322 fighters are dispatched to hit oil and
communication targets using PFF; 1 P-51 is lost:
  1. 246 B-24s are sent to hit the marshalling yard at Soest (144) and the
Schildesche water viaduct at Bielefeld (80); Gee-H and H2X radar are used
for bombing; 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 3 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA.
Escorting are 77 P-47s and P-51s.
  2. 344 B-17s are dispatched to bomb the Horderverein (24) and Harpenerweg
(62) oil refineries at Dortmund; secondary targets hit are the marshalling
yards at Paderborn (11), Siegen (113) and Giessen (87); Gee-H and H2X radar
are used; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 20 damaged; 1 airman is KIA.
The escort is 74 of 85 P-51s.
  3. 340 B-17s are sent to hit the Emscherlippe benzol plant at Datteln
(173) and the Rauxel benzol plant at Castrop (77); secondary targets hit
are the marshalling yards at Siegen (43) and Giessen (28); 1 other hits a
target of opportunity; Micro H and H2X radar are used; 56 B-17s are
damaged. 75 of 76 P-51s escort the bombers.
  4. 6 B-17s and 6 B-24s fly a screening mission.
  5. 4 B-17s fly a scouting mission.
  6. 37 of 38 P-51s fly a sweep of the Dummer Lake-Kassel-Koblenz area.
  7. 23 P-51s escort 5 F-5s and a Spitfire on a photo reconnaissance mission
over Germany; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  8. 24 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 870: 11 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany and the Netherlands.
  Mission 871: 19 of 20 B-24s bomb Dortmund during the night using PFF; 1
B-24 is lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather cancels combat operations
except for the XXIX Tactical Air Commands support of the US XVI Corps along
the Rhine River in the Wesel area. The 39th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), moves from St Amand to
Jarny, France with F-5s (flights are operating from Gosselies and Le Culot,
Belgium).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Continued bad weather limits
operations to a supply drop in Yugoslavia and routine reconnaissance and
escort missions; all bombing operations are cancelled and 42 P-51s sent on a
strafing mission against railroad communications in Austria are recalled. The
318th Fighter Squadron, 325th Fighter Group, moves from Lesina to Rimini,
Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s continue
interdiction of enemy communications, damaging a railroad bridge at Longarone
and railroad fills at Peri and Ossenigo; the XXII Tactical Air Command
concentrates on communications in the NE, Po Valley and fuel and ammunition
dumps in the C part of the Valley with generally good results; during the
night of 6/7 Mar, A-20s hit the Ostiglia crossing and bridges at Nervesa
della Battaglia and Casarsa della Delizia, and bomb targets of opportunity in
the Brenner area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 11 Guam Island-based B-24s hit Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima Island and the town of Okimura on Haha Jima Island; 5 more hit
Susaki Airfield during the night of 7/8 Mar in individual harassment strikes.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s hit the Balete Pass area while A-20s and fighter-bombers hit troop
concentrations and gun positions near Antipolo and near San Fernando, NW of
Ft Stotsenburg, and in the Bayombong-Solano area and targets of opportunity
in the Lake Taal area, the towns of Santa Fe, Lallo and Vigan, and on Caballo
Island in Manila Bay; numerous ground support missions are flown throughout
Luzon.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
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07/0035Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:19:31 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-MAR-1945

On 07-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the Canadian II Corps
prepares for the final attack on Xanten. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the
4rd Armoured Division and the 104th Division capture Cologne. Elements of
the 9th Armoured Division establish bridgeheads over the rivers Ahr and
Rhine. Other elements of the division manage to capture a bridge at
Remagen, the only one that the Germans have not been able to blow up. In
the 3rd Army sector, the 87th Division advance quickly to the northeast
towards the Ahr. Elements of the 11th Armoured Division take Dockweiler,
Boxberg and Kelberg.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 6th Division and 1st Cavalry
Division continue preparations for a coordinated drive east against the
Shimbu line. Elements of the 11th Airborne Division advance through
undefended Taal. In the I Corps area, elements of the 33rd Division take
the Aringay bridge and town without opposition.

Iwo Jima - The VAC begins to attack in the center before dawn, withholding
preparatory fire and moving forward with great secrecy. The units of the
3rd Marine Division on the right of the center are pinned down after a
limited advance at daybreak. On the left of the center, the division is not
able to move forward either. On the left flank, the 5th Marine Division
makes limited progress, where the terrain is a greater handicap than the
enemy. On the right flank of the corps the 4th Marine Division is unable to
move and continues to mop up in the read areas. Since the use of naval
gunfire is now greatly restricted most of TF 54 leaves for Ulithi.

The Homefront
-------------
House Passes Draft Of Nurses - The House of Representatives has passed, 347
to 42 and sends to the Senate, a bill that would draft all nurses aged 20
through 44 who are not married and have no dependent children

New Tank Shown - The War Department has announced its newest tank, which
carries a 90-mm. gun and is the most powerful yet built by the U.S. The
tank, has been named the General Pershing and is described as the answer to
the German Tiger tank.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:34:26 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

By the way, Mike. Hattori wrote on of the best histories of the war from the
Japanese point of view, believable, and I feel accurate. And above all,
objective. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:58:31 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

Mike, the initial plans for Cactus was an assault on Florida Island and Tulagi,
I believe, because Tulagi had one of the best anchorages in the Pacific.
Because there were no maps of Guadalcanal other than the sketches drawn by
Australian planters who had been in the area, LtCol Merrill B. Twining, Asst
G-3 of the 1st MarDiv, and Maj William B. McKean, another member of the G-3
section, were flown by B-17 on a photoreconnaissance mission over the area. It
was only then that it was discovered that the Japs were building an airfield on
Guadalcanal, which changed the strategic picture entirely, and this meant that
the supply line from the US to Australia would truly be in danger. That is when
the primary target was changed to Guadalcanal. If you read the official
histories as well as my namesake's "Guadalcanal," you will know that the 1st
MarDiv never did get good maps of the island.
        By the way, while I have everybody's attention, in the Washington Post
yesterday, there was a story which said that the government, out of
appreciation for Japanese sensitivities, is not going to call or commemorate
V-J Day as V-J Day. The story says that the US and Japan agree that marking
WWII's end must be in low key. According to the article, and I quote,
"...Washington has assured Tokyo that U.S. government representatives at
commemorative events will avoid using the traditional term "V-J Day," short for
"Victory-over-Japan Day, to describe the end of the Pacific War. Instead, all
American material will simply refer to the "end of the war." I am absolutely
appalled and totally pissed off at this pusillanimous action on the part of the
government. It is an insult to all veterans of the Pacific War, living and
dead, and I call upon the members of this list to take whatever action is
within their limits to sound off on the matter. When I cool down sufficiently,
I intend writing a letter to the Post. Whether it is published, is another
story. An accompany article is headed: "V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era." What a
crock! Ben Frank, spring loaded in a pissed off position.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:30:44 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: GAS AT IWO JIMA

It is true that gas, like other options, was considered for Iwo. As a matter
fact, planners had gridded a map of Iwo to determine where the shells were to
be dropped. But one has to realize that Iwo is an island with ocean breezes
constantly flowing over it, and the gas undoubtedly would have be dispersed
before it could do much damage. In the Army green back series, the history of
the Chemical Corps by Dale Birdsell and Brooks Kleber deals with this matter. I
alway wondered when reading operation plans and orders that while there was a
chemical warfare defense plan, there was neve a chemical warfare offensive
plan, and even to this day, I don't know where the gas in the Pacific was
stored and who had the ultimate authority to authorize use of it. I would
suppose gas might have been stored in the Hawaiian Islands and that Nimitz had
the authority, although I doubt if he would have made a move without either
presidential or JCS sanction. Just a supposition. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:17:02 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

        June 1944 marked a turning point in how the Japanese organized their
resistance to the great Allied amphibious offensive.  But before I get to that,
I'd like to add a few comments on items recently mentioned.
        I mentioned some of the contributions of African-Americans in the
Pacific theatre in regard to Black History Month.  I guess I should also add
that the Bougainville campaign marked the baptism of fire for the US Army's
only black regular infantry units to fight in the Pacific.  The 93rd Division
included two regiments, the 24th and 25th Regts., whose enlisted men were
entirely African-American (officers down to company commander level remained
white).  The 93rd fought a Joe and Willie in the Pacific kind of war-- a lot of
no-respect, backwater, dirty clean-up work far from the press corps and the
glory.  Their war was mainly mopping-up and secondary operations.  Of course,
these were not secondary operations to the Japanese, who still fought to the
death in most cases.  At any rate, company K of the 25th Regiment made a rather
inauspicious debut on Bougainville in April 1944.  On its very first combat
patrol, the company was surprised by a Japanese machinegun (as US forces also
rediscovered later in Vietnam, in thick jungle a single machinegun covering a
stretch of trail could make for a deadly ambush, and the Japanese used this
tactic a lot in the Pacific).  As the unexpected bursts tore into their ranks
and men went down, confusion set in among the inexperienced K company.  Two of
the American platoons began firing, and then started firing at each other.
There were more casualties, and then a platoon sergeant panicked and ran, many
of his men following.  In spite of the efforts of the white company commander
to get his men to stay put and cease firing, a general skedaddle took place.
The men of K company left behind ten dead men, as well as equipment including a
radio and a mortar, and dragged twenty more wounded back with them.  This
initiation to battle was doubly unfortunate, as it gave the critics of the use
of African-Americans as combat troops (and there were many of them in the
largely-segregated and in many quarters highly prejudiced military
establishment) ammunition to use in making their case.  Never mind that both
black regiments of the 93rd Division subsequently fought reasonably well.  They
later participated in the fighting on Saipan, and then in the
operations against Morotai and the Moluccan islands (fall '44), as the division
was kept pretty busy for the rest of the year.  On Saipan the 24th Regt won a
unit citation for its energetic and efficient operations during the mopping-up
phase of the battle there, and on Morotai a patrol from the 25th Regt captured
one of the highest-ranking Japanese officers to be taken alive on the island.
        Although more than a million African-Americans served in the US armed
forces during the war, which saw the first black general, the first black
fighter ace, and other acheivements (the man who would be the first black
admiral was serving as an officer on a subchaser), one is tempted to agree with
Spector when he dismisses those accomplishments as mere window dressing.  For
most African-American servicemen, World War 2 was a sentence to hard labor,
because it was in various types of labor units that most found themselves.  I
earlier mentioned the construction of the Ledo road through the Burmese jungle,
a task involving much back-breaking labor under extremely difficult
circumstances, and where roughly three-fifths of those backs were black.  The
US Marine Corps was another example.  Later in the war the Marines formed black
combat units, but they were base defense battalions-- self-contained outfits
which could be sent in to secure and if necessary defend small island outposts
like Wake or Midway.  By the time these units had been trained the need for
such battalions had passed, since there were no outposts that were actually
threatened with Japanese invasion by that stage in the war.  Lots of
African-American Marines did see combat, though-- as ammunition handlers (i.e.,
labor units) in amphibious assaults.  These units landed either with the first
waves or soon after.  Their job was to rapidly unload ammunition and create
local dumps (this was frequently done under fire), then usually to carry some
of that ammunition to the forward troops, staying near the front lines to serve
as stretcher bearers to bring the wounded back.  In this manner black Marines
took part in the landings on Saipan and Iwo Jima, among other places.  On
Pelleliu one such unit was observed, after serving as stretcher bearers all
day, to slip away in small groups led by noncoms to go and do their bit in the
front lines as fighters after dark.  The Army Air Force also had a number of
predominantly-black aviation engineer battalions (again, a euphemism for what
were essentially construction and labor units) which saw either combat or a
great deal of hard work behind the lines in the Pacific.  One such battalion,
the 810th, arrived in the Pacific on one of the first American reinforcement
convoys in early 1942, served among other places in Noumea, Guadalcanal, Biak,
and the Phillipines in non-combat assignments, did not return home until four
months after the Japanese surrender, and in all that time did not spend a single
day in a rest camp.  Another black construction battalion, the 811th, got to
trade shots with holdout Japanese snipers while trying to repair, expand, and
maintain an airfield on Iwo Jima.
        Unfortunately, institutionalized prejudice was often the lot of the
African-American military man.  General Vandegrift, the Marine commander on
Guadalcanal who was later elevated to the post of Marine Corps commandant, was
among the more sensible and admirable American commanders when he announced,
"The Negro Marines are no longer on trial.  They are Marines, period."
However, his attitude was not necessarily the majority view among white
officers (its not the Pacific theatre, but I keep thinking of the book "Hit
Hard" where officers training the 761st Tank Battalion in the deep south
frequently sang "I'm Dreaming of a White Battalion" in their mess).  Another
Marine general warned against sending black Marines to American Samoa because,
essentially, he was afraid they'd have too much sex with the "primitively
romantic" (as he put it) native women.  In Sydney, Australia, US military
authorities made virtually all of the city's most popular bars, nightclubs,
theatres, and restaraunts off limits to black personnel.  Even Australian
government officials formally complained of the discrimination shown against
African-American military personnel by their own white officers, claiming it
could only lead to violence and unrest.  MacArthur smugly assured them that
there was no prejudice or discrimination in the American military, and business
went on as usual.  The worst outbreak of racial tension occurred late in the
war on Guam (showing that things got no better as time went on), between black
naval base personnel and white Marines.  The Marines used to cruise by the
black barracks in trucks shouting racial epithets, which soon drew the response
of the black sailors rushing out to pelt the trucks with stones.  The incident
came to a head when a black sailor was shot by a white sailor.  That night
there was, basically, a drive-by shooting at the black barracks-- unidentified
individuals in a truck spraying shots into the black compound as they drove by.
An inquiry by the naval authorities into the spreading violence (including more
shooting incidents) concluded in part that the African-American sailors had
overeacted by confusing a few exceptional examples with prejucial policies on
the part of the military at large, of which it found no evidence (this in a
Navy that practiced segregation as a matter of practical policy!).  I cite
these things to show that I realize that the US of A was not always Mr Clean
either in regard to the way we did things, so that when I mention things like
the Japanese for no apparent reason hacking 400 officers and men of the
Phillipino 91st Division to death with swords during the Bataan Death March no
one will think I'm getting too sanctimonious and picking on the Japanese.
        I also realize I might have stepped into a minefield by making a couple
of positive-sounding references to Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner in my last
few posts.  Actually, all I said was that he was considered the US Navy's
resident expert on amphibious operations, which it is obvious he was.  Among
other operations, he was the man in charge of the landing and covering forces
at Guadalcanal, New Georgia, the Marianas, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.  Turner was
also considered to be one of the most brilliant officers in the whole Navy, not
least of all by Turner himself.  He was certainly a difficult man, supremely
egotistical and overbearing (all the qualities that really turn me off in
MacArthur).  Spector quotes correspondent Robert Sherrod as saying that Turner
couldn't go from ship to shore "without telling the coxswain how to bring the
boat alongside."  His propensity for sticking his inquisitive nose into the
land fighting did not win him any friends among the Marines in the early
Solomons campaign.  Vandegrift was highly annoyed at his attempt to advise the
Marines on the ground fighting on Guadalcanal, and the command set-up Turner
organized for New Georgia has also been critized as inefficient and
counter-productive.  Furthermore, the Marines have a bone to pick with Turner
over Iwo, where he was one of the Navy commanders who decided that a
concentrated three-day naval bombardment of the island would be adequate, in
spite of Marine requests for a ten-day artillery preparation.  The naval
bombardment on Saipan was also considered less than optimally effective,
although in this case it must be admitted that the ships under Turner's direct
command did the bulk of the damage, while other bombarding groups suffered from
poor targeting decisions and inexperience in supporting shore operations.
Also, I wanted to mention that my calling Admiral Tanaka "the Japanese Kelly
Turner" was a referral to his specialization in troop and invasion transport,
not to any unpopular angles of the Japanese admiral's personality.  Overall,
the US Navy was populated with some pretty good commanders in the admirals'
ranks.  Chester Nimitz, the Pacific commander-in-chief, emerges as an
operational mastermind and cool-headed war leader, Ray Spruance was (IMHO)
prudent without being timid, and the American Navy also had the benefit of a
solid second line of subordinate admirals like Mitscher, Jesse Ohlendorf, and
the Chinese-American "Ching" Lee.
        Having said all that, I want to get back to June 1944.  The Marianas
marked the final hurrah for the prevailing Japanese tactical approach to defense
against amphibious landings, which was to try and stop the invaders at the
water line, or, if they succeeded in getting ashore, to immediately hurl them
back into the sea with strong counterattacks.  Saipan was the first of the
Marianas islands attacked, and it was also important because it was considered
part of Japan proper (having been another fruit of Japan's First World War
participation-- it was administratively considered as belonging to the district
including Tokyo).  Saipan was also an island imperative to hold because it was
within range of the Japanese homeland for the new B-29 Superfortress heavy
bomber.  This amazing aircraft, despite repeated problems during development,
once combat-ready proved a potential war-winning weapon (and when combined with
the atomic bomb it was exactly that).  It had a range of 2,800 miles, could
carry up to 20,000 lbs of bombs, could operate loaded at 32,000 feet, and
reached a speed of 355 mph (for comparison, the Japanese Navy's two fastest
fighters to see service during the war, the Shiden and the Raiden, had top
speeds of less than 370 mph and just over 380 mph respectively-- and there were
less than 900 planes of both types combined built!).  On top of that, the
four-engined B-29 was heavily armored, and featured sophisticated defensive
armament, including four small domes, two on top and two beneath the plane,
each mounting a pair of .50-calibre machineguns and controlled from three
remote sighting stations in the fuselage.  There was also a tail position with
two more .50's plus a 20-mm cannon.  However, in early operations the air
gunners had difficulty adjusting to the remote sighting arrangements, and many
of the most successful B-29 raids on Japan were conducted using aircraft
stripped of all armament except for the tail position in order to cut weight
and thus increase speed and range (as I've seen reference to, other than in
LeMay's "Superfortress," in recent list discussion).
        At any rate, for such an important island, the Japanese command
arrangements were noticeably in disarray.  The Marianas were part of the
jurisdiction of the Japanese 31st Army, commanded by Lt-General Hideyoshi Obata
(not to be confused with the previously-mentioned Lt-Gen Eiryo Obata, the air
commander).  Actually, the overall command for the Marianas per se was in the
hands of the Navy's Admiral Chuichi Nagumo, the small but fit officer (in his
long-ago youth he had been a championship wrestler) recently famed as commander
of Kido Butai, the carrier strike force.  Just as Nagumo with Kido Butai had
usually deferred to the advice of his chief-of-staff Kusaka, in the Marianas he
essentially abdicated the actual ground command to the local Army leadership--
a reasonable action, as there were on Saipan at the time of the American
landings about 25,000 Army personnel, compared to only 6,100 marines and naval
base personnel organized into fighting units.  Obata's 31st Army, however, had
a lot more than Saipan to worry about.  The area controlled and defended by
this army was huge.  Obata had a lot of units under command, but they were
spread over a great deal of territory.  In the Marianas, where he made his
headquarters, he had the 43rd Division and the 47th Brigade on Saipan, another
division and one brigade on Guam, and a regiment on Tinian.  He also had
a division and two brigades in the Palaus islands, where many of them wound up
fighting the US Marines on Peleliu.  There was another division and two
brigades on Truk (soon to be joined by another China veteran division, which
however suffered greivous losses of both equipment and men to US submarines en
route.  Truk, like Rabaul, was bypassed and left to starve, which was exactly
what happened.  In spite of attempts to turn every plot capable of being
cultivated into vegetable gardens, there were even reports of cannabalism on
Truk before the war ended.  The book "Peace Is Our Duty" I mentioned in some of
my early posts includes the recollections of a soldier and a marine
antiaircraft gunner who were stuck on Truk).  Finally, there was also the 109th
Division on Iwo Jima.  All that territory and all those units meant that Obata
spent a lot of time away from his HQ.  In fact, when the Americans landed on
Saipan he was away on an inspection tour to the Palaus.  That meant the command
of the defenses devolved on Lt-Gen. Yoshitsugu Saito, commander of the 43rd
Division, who outranked Obata's chief-of-staff (and the Japanese, like many
militaries of the period, were sticklers for propriety in terms of promotions
and the seniority lists).  Saito was not a great choice to command in a crucial
battle.  He had little experience as a commander of troops in the field, and
previous to taking over 43rd Division had served in the Army's horse
procurement department.
        The campaign for Saipan played out exactly like most of the central
Pacific amphibious operations that had preceded it.  The Japanese defense of
the beaches was tenacious.  They had a variety of weapons including 5.5-inch,
6-inch, and 8-inch naval guns emplaced to cover the landing zones, and in spite
of the use of a new model of armored amphibious tractor mounting a 75-mm
howitzer in its tank-like turret US losses in getting ashore were pretty heavy,
some 1,500 killed or wounded.  Once ashore, the Americans near Garapan were hit
with repeated counterattacks, mostly by night, and several including Japanese
armor.  These attacks failed to dislodge the invaders, and cost the Japanese
heavy casualties which hurt their later attempts to defend the island (although
they were still able to impose serious enough delays that the Marine commander
Holland Smith created a furor among his US Army counterparts when he fired
Ralph Smith, the general commanding one of the Army divisions ashore-- the
Army was outraged at having one of its own fired by a Marine, and the
controversy went all the way up to the top levels of the government, where
Holland Smith's action was eventually backed).  When the end appeared to be in
sight, the Japanese threw their customary suicide "banzai" charge, in this case
coming closest to actually succeeding.  The charge overran two battalions of a
US Army infantry regiment, killing or wounding 650 soldiers (the third
battalion was too well dug-in above a rocky gulch), but about 4,300 Japanese
died in the effort.  Two images from things I read about Saipan stick with me.
One (from Manchester, "Goodbye Darkness") is that of a Marine colonel who sat
on a stump, smoking a cigar, throughout the night attack against the beachead
which involved 44 Japanese tanks, calmly calling down naval artillery fire
against the attackers.  The other is of an Army Lt-Colonel, commander of one of
the battalions overrun in the suicide charge, who, already wounded, stood like
the fictitious image of Custer at the Little Big Horn, a pistol in each hand,
and fired at the oncoming Japanese until both weapons were empty.  Then he took
over a .50-calibre machinegun and kept that firing until he was killed.  And
there is, of course, the most ominous image of all, that of some 22,000
Japanese civilians killing themselves by jumping off cliffs.  This was the
first Pacific battleground to have Japanese civilians present in any number,
and the sight of the mass suicides could not have been much comfort to Marines
and GI's later contemplating the kind of resistance they would find in an
invasion of Japan proper.
        Saipan was a grevious defeat for the Japanese.  For the Americans, the
"butcher's bill" was fairly high, over 16,000 casualties counting naval losses.
The subsequent assault on Tinian, however, was a masterpiece of amphibious
tactics, and was concluded with less than 2,000 total casualties.  Guam, the
final major Marianas island to be taken, was also bitterly contested, and cost
over 7,000 men.  Still, the loss to the Japanese was much higher, and not only
in terms of casualties.  For the Japanese Navy had tried and failed in its
attempt to smash the invasion forces in a "decisive battle."  Instead, the
Japanese got the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" and the effective end of
Japanese naval air power.  It was also shown that the Navy's ability to
intervene successfully against further American offensive operations was open
to serious question, while the Army had failed to defend a territory considered
part of Japan itself.  The impotence shown caused a great crisis among the
higher circles of the Japanese government, and occasioned the fall of Tojo's
government from the power it had held since the war's start.  Nagumo and Saito
both committed suicide when Saipan fell.
        Still, an example of a better way to organize defensively for the
future was also at hand.  The island of Biak, off the northwest coast of New
Guinea, was almost considered a subsidiary target to MacArthur's forces, busy
fighting for the control of the nearby Wakde island area.  It was not exactly
in the front line of Japanese defenses, either.  The Japanese commander on Biak
was a colonel, Col Naoyuki Kuzume.  He had about 11,000 men under his command,
drawn from a variety of small units of various degrees of combat efficiency.
Kuzume's improvised defensive strategy, a basic field expedient, proved a
turning point in Japanese defensive tactics for the war.  Instead of trying to
stop the invaders at the waterline, he withdrew inland, and sheltered his
forces in numerous caves improved for defense by further excavation.  He only
exposed his men to the murderous fire of the Allied artillery on ships and
ashore when they were making counterattacks, and these were much better thought
out than the massed reactions to other invasions like Saipan.  Kuzume's
defensive scheme gave the Americans more than they bargained for (here it was
the US planners who underestimated, and the initial landing force consisting of
part of one Army division was hardly bigger than Kuzume's defending
congregation).  His defense of the island lasted from late May till late July,
and at the height of the fighting his counterattacks even compelled the
Americans to abandon one of their landing beaches.  This, it seemed, was a
model to be emulated, and it was.  By the time the US Marines landed on
Peleliu in September, another subsidiary action expected to be a walkover,
Kuzume's pattern had become the accepted Japanese defensive doctrine, and
Peleliu too turned out to be a long, vicious, and costly campaign.  As I
explained earlier, this new tactical policy would reach its bloody conclusion
with the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
        I should mention too that the Japanese used tank forces for their
counterattacks on both Biak and Peleliu, which initially took the US forces
somewhat by surprise.  It should not have done so, because the Japanese
actually employed their armor pretty widely.  In fact, they used tanks whenever
they had them.  Japanese tanks spearheaded at least three or four attacks in
Malaya, were used in mass (by Japanese standards) on Singapore, were also
employed in fairly large numbers in northern Burma.  Tanks were used in smaller
numbers at every stage of the fighting in the Phillipines (the first couple
vehicles to be put ashore on Corregidor made up Wainwright's mind to surrender
the island, since they landed within a quarter of mile of his HQ in the vast
Malinta tunnels, and he had no antitank weapons).  There were Japanese tanks at
Milne Bay in New Guinea, even a Ha-Go on Tarawa that caused considerable
consternation among the Marines until a 37-mm antitank gun was hand-lifted over
the seawall to knock it out.  I've already referred to the fact that on Saipan
there were at least three attempts to use tanks in the early counterattacks,
including one mass assault with 44 vehicles.  It was not a failure of doctrine,
or a reluctance to employ modern weapons and machinery, it was more a failing
of the Japanese industry and economy to supply the Japanese Army with
sufficient numbers of machines of sufficient quality, a theme I have echoed
often before.  The Japanese were willing to
fight a modern, technological war-- they just didn't have enough of the
technology.  The problem lay in the fact that at Peleliu they could only launch
a tank attack with a mere 13 vehicles, or that at Biak it was a case of light
tanks with 37-mm guns against Shermans (which opposed the Japanese tanks on
Peleliu as well).  In fact, looking at these battles tends to suggest that the
Japanese had a highly developed appreciation for the value of armor, especially
in the infantry support role, and tried to employ tanks whenever possible to
beef up their offensive operations.  On Okinawa, the Japanese counterattacks
undertaken near the Maeda ridge were supported by the only tank regiment they
had, a total of 14 medium and 13 light tanks.  This offensive, probably
ill-conceived (and a definite departure from Ushijima's defensive strategy)
gained some ground due to superhuman exertions by the leading battalions,
though at the cost of fearsome casualties.  Well-directed US gunfire accounted
for most of the Japanese tanks at an early phase.  By the time of the assault
on the town of Tanabaru, in the sector the tanks were operating, there were
only nine light tanks left to support the attack.  The town and the surrounding
hills were taken, but six of the remaining tanks were knocked out in the
effort.  The rifle battalion led by the young Captain Ito, which spearheaded
the attack in this sector (helped by the tanks) had less than 150 of its
original 600 men remaining when it was ordered to withdraw.
        The Japanese could sometimes be extremely clever in adapting to their
low-tech war.  They adapted to poor supply in jungle environments by learning
to forage, watching the monkeys and eating what they ate.  For the night
attacks which they favored, their officers smeared phosphorescent plants on
their backs, or pinned strips of white cloth to the backs of their uniforms, so
their men could follow them in the dark.  These same officers, however, were
still going into combat armed with swords (in addition to the troublesome
little Nambu pistol, useless at much beyond point-blank range).  But their
ingenuity could be admirable.  In the 1920's the ordinance board under Colonel
Nambu developed the machinegun designs that would see the Japanese Army through
most of the Second World War.  These designs were mostly pirated from the WW1
French Hotchkiss, a mechanism not entirely suited to some of the roles to which
the Japanese adapted it.  The Nambu mgs were hardly designer's dreams, the best
that could probably be said for them was that, with meticulous care and
cleaning (which, given the Japanese training, was generally the case) they
worked reasonably well most of the time.  Somehow Nambu's people had managed to
increase the weight of the tripod-mounted version to 122 pounds, much heavier
than the original Hotchkiss (even though the Nambu initially fired a less
powerful cartridge), and something of a load for the average Japanese soldier,
who was only five foot three.  No problem, the Japanese worked out a system
whereby poles could be inserted into slots on the feet of the tripod, allowing
three or four men (and a heavy machinegun crew always included at least that
many) to pick it up and carry it in teams, more or less like a stretcher, with
the added advantage that it could be plopped down ready to fire immediately.
The machinegun company in each Japanese rifle battalion (these, BTW, usually
had four rifle companies instead of the three that were the norm in western
armies) had two platoons, each platoon having two machinegun squads (two
tripod-mounted mgs each) plus an ammunition squad.  The latter consisted of ten
or more backs to be used as human pack animals hauling extra ammunition,
another example of Japanese adaptation to their low-tech environment.
        But that sort of improvisation could hardly cope with the impressive
industrial and technological acheivements of the US and the other Allies.  I
read with interest on this list a little while back where the Japanese also had
been conducting research into the possibilities of atomic weapons.  It seems
the Japanese had competent scientists who were hot on the trail theoretically,
but lacked among other things the uranium to experiment with.  I think that,
even more, what they lacked was the TWO BILLION DOLLARS the Americans were able
to throw at the problem.  Japan just didn't have the luxury of that sort of
expenditure for mere research and development.  The Japanese, later in the war,
were also experimenting with jet and rocket aircraft.  The Japanese Navy's
"Kikka" ("Orange Blossom") jet attack plane was a two-engined design based on
the German Me-262, but smaller.  It actually flew successfully on August 7,
1945-- significantly, the day after the dropping of the Hiroshima a-bomb,
showing how far behind the Japanese actually were in the high-tech war, and the
impossibility of ever catching up.  A second flight ended badly when an
improperly-installed takeoff assistance rocket caused a crash on take-off, but
aside from the prototypes 17 production models were in various stages of
completion when the war ended.  The Kikka (built by Nakajima) would have had a
top speed of over 440 miles per hour, capable of carrying over 1,700 lbs of
bombs or one torpedo.  The Army had its own version, the Karyu ("Fire Dragon"),
on the drawing board, a closer copy of the Messerschmidt 262 which would have
been a fighter with a speed of 520-530 mph and an armament of four automatic
cannon.
        The Navy also experimented with the Mitsubishi J8M rocket-plane.  This
was based on the German Me-163 Komet, the Germans having rendered this small
aid to their ally in sending an engine and some drawings from the Me-163A to
Japan by submarine.  A complete Me-163B along with the full set of construction
plans was to be sent later, but the submarine carrying these items was sunk en
route, so the Japanese had to reconstruct much of the aircraft themselves.
Nonetheless, the J8M was ready for its test-flight in July 1945.  However, its
engine failed shortly after take-off, resulting in a crash which killed the
test pilot, Inuzuka.  This was its only flight.  The design would have acheived
a speed of 555 mph during its short powered flight, and was to have been armed
with two 30-mm cannon.  The Army planned to give priority to the production of
its own version, the Ki-202, but these never flew before the surrender.
        The only rocket-powered aircraft to see service with the Japanese was a
suicide weapon, the Yokosuka MXY "Okha" ("Cherry Blossom," although the Allied
sailors called it "Baka," Japanese for "fool").  With a powerful 2,600-lb
explosive charge in its nose, the Okha was carried aloft by specially-adapted
G4M two-engined bombers.  It was released at high speed and altitude about 50
miles from the target, gliding most of the way in at speeds reaching 290 mph.
The engine was only switched on for the last 30 seconds, boosting the
aircraft's speed to as much as 600 mph before impact.  The first success of this
weapon was a hit scored on the battleship WEST VIRGINIA off Okinawa on April
1st, 1945.  On April 12, another "Baka" sank the destroyer escort MANNERT L.
ABELE, and hits were scored on another destroyer and three transports by these
manned rocket bombs during the campaign.  Nearly 800 Okhas were eventually
built, including 45 glider versions for pilot training purposes, but only a
small percentage of these were actually employed in action.
        And here, with the kamikazes, is a good place to wind it all up.
Because, with their dearth of resources necessary for modern warfare, for the
Japanese that is what "Special Weapons" came down to.  Not atomic bombs or V2
rockets, but suicide planes.  Here once again it is possible to discern that
underlying belief in the superiority of spiritual attributes translated into
material terms.  The biggest kamikaze operation of the war came off Okinawa.
Operation "Ten-Go" commenced on April 6th, 1945, when nearly 700 suicide planes
were unleashed against the Allied fleets off Okinawa.  This was a long-prepared
attempt to fight the elusive "decisive battle" once more, but despite the
horror of this form of attack the results were not decisive, although three
destroyers, two important ammunition ships, and an LST were sunk, with ten
other vessels, mostly escort ships, damaged.  The Japanese pilots, BTW, had
orders to ignore all but the biggest warships and aim for the loaded
transports.  It seems this was often disregarded, since the destroyer pickets
came to suffer most heavily from this form of attack.  Although the big raid on
April 6th did not strike the serious blows planned, there would be nine more
kamikaze operations organized under "Ten-Go" and involving at least 50 and
sometimes as many as 300 aircraft before Okinawa was finally secured.  A total
of 34 Allied ships were sunk by these assaults off Okinawa, and casualties
among sailors ran into the thousands.
        I should say that the first suicide air attack of the war actually came
on the first day of the war, at Pearl Harbor.  A Japanese fighter commander
named Iida in the second wave got into a kind of western shoot-out with a brave
American at the airfield he was strafing.  The American had a BAR (Browning
Automatic Rifle, the weapon used to provide automatic fire support in the
typical US rifle squad), and he had companions in the armory inside the
building to pass him new, loaded BAR's every time he emptied a 20-shot clip.
After Iida's first pass, the American shouted "Pass me another BAR, I think I
got the sonofabitch!"  He had indeed-- Iida's Zero was hit in the fuel tank,
and with the leak would probably not make it back to his carrier.  So the
Japanese officer deliberately crashed his plane into a hanger.  The first
planned suicide attack, however, came off the north coast of New Guinea at the
end of May 1944, and was made by four Japanese Army Ki-45 two-engined aircraft.
        The Ki-45 was originally designed as a heavy fighter plane.  When new
versions appeared mounting a 20-mm or 37-mm nose cannon (in addition to one or
two 12.7-mm mgs) the type had some success in a shipping attack role off New
Guinea, and it was also encountered in many roles in the China-Burma theatre,
including reconnaisance, long-range fighter, and ground attack.  The aircraft's
chief virtues were good maneuverability for a two-engined plane, and decent
speed.  In 1944 the surviving examples were converted to "Kai-C" nightfighter
versions, mounting (in addition to a 20- or 37-mm and two 12.7-mm in the nose)
two 12.7-mm mgs behind the cockpit firing obliquely upward, similar to the
German "Schragemusik" configuration.  One of the reasons for the US interest in
China, BTW, was that it was originally (before the capture of the Marianas and
the transfer of operations to Tinian) planned to base B-29's there to raid
Japan.  The first B-29 raids against the Japanese homeland were in fact
launched from eastern China just before the Japanese "Ichi-Go" offensive
overran their bases in the summer of 1944.  They also targeted industrial
complexes and harbors in Manchuria from the Chinese bases, and raided
Indochinese and southeast Asian coastal areas as well.  The Japanese Army in
1944 countered the first B-29 missions by establishing two large night fighter
bases across their paths, one at Hanoi in the south, and one at Anshan in
Manchuria.  Ki-45's based at Anshan on one occasion in the summer of 1944
brought down seven B-29's in a single night, but this success was a rare
exception.  The use of the Ki-45 as a nightfighter was hindered by the fact
that the aircraft carried no radar, due to production difficulties with the
radar set.  And that is why I included this description, and the whole topic of
Japanese night fighters, as another example of the Japanese shortcomings in the
high-tech war.  The Japanese Navy had their own two-engined nightfighter, the
Nakajima J1N1-S Gekko ("Moonlight").  It had a radar in the nose, mounted four
20-mm cannon (all in oblique fixed mounts, two firing upward and two firing
down), and furthermore the aircraft was so maneuverable it could turn as
tightly as many single-engined fighters.  But the Gekko could not climb high
enough or fly fast enough to intercept the B-29, and at any rate only 475 of
the nightfighter version were built during the war.

        As a final note, I wanted to add to my China posts that during the
"Ichi-Go" offensive the Chinese group of American-trained and -equipped
divisions known as "Y-Force," which was attacking along the Burma road from the
Chinese side, was in September (as the Japanese were reorganizing for one final
push in the main offensive) itself attacked by the Japanese in a subsidiary
operation.  I forgot to mention that.
        Also, as a parting kudo for our friends down under, I should mention
that an Australian fighter squadron which had fought in North Africa, equipped
with Kittyhawks, gave the Japanese, even the Zero, all they could handle over
New Guinea in the early going there, when Lae wing was generally ruling the
skies.  The Kittyhawk, for those who don't know, was essentially a souped-up
P-40 with a Spitfire (Rolls-Royce) engine installed, boosting the speed by
15-20 mph over current P-40 versions.  This was also the plane flown by
Australia's top ace Clive Caldwell for most of his career in North Africa (he
later switched to a Spitfire).

        One appendix to go.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Mar 1995 to 6 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 6 Mar 1995 to 7 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 56 messages totalling 2298 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Intelligence on Tirpitz (2)
  2. Battle of the Bulge
  3. Victory At Sea (3)
  4. TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS (4)
  5. VJ Day (6)
  6. Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5 (4)
  7. "Ching" Lee
  8. INF: Changes in German High Command
  9. more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F (3)
 10. Polish resistance
 11. VJ Day "remembered"
 12. Johnson Automatic Rifle
 13. NOST:  UK Sites (2)
 14. THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt (2)
 15. WEAP: Johnson Rifle
 16. WELCOME TO LIST
 17. LETTERS HOME
 18. Glacier Girl
 19. Victory at Sea, et.al.
 20. INF: 'Bradley, concerning Patton
 21. Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)
 22. INFO. German Camp Numbers?
 23. INFO. German Professor Abbreviations (2)
 24. WW I list info? (2)
 25. More on Bong (3)
 26. Last Japan appendix-- the battlewagon war
 27. endlossung/Germans or Nazis?
 28. [INF] USAAF 8 MAR 45
 29. The Last Battlewagon War part 2
 30. Is Japan Sorry?
 31. 50TH: THREE DAY PARIS PASS
 32. INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-MAR-1945
 33. Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt
 34. V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 01:21:28 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

Sydney Allinson wrote:

> THE GREATEST RAID OF ALL

I've heard this title mentioned elsewhere, but frankly, the title struck me
as, uh, somewhat hyperbolic, and I was a little reluctant to launch an
all-out search for it (I understand that it's out of print). I guess what
troubles me is that, while the greatness of the heroism required to undertake
the Saint-Nazaire raid is unquestionable, whether the raid itself was all
that "great" is well open to debate. Is this book the only real source, and
is the text as flowery as the title?

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:31:07 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Battle of the Bulge

I also recall that the United States Marines also used the
JOHNSON AUTOMATIC RIFLE.
An unusual design, with a rotary magazine.
'Far as I know, the US Marines were the only force to use this weapon in
any numbers. After WW2, the Johnson was purchased to equip the Dutch
army fighting insurgents in the Duth East Indies - now Indonesia.

Anyone else have comment about the Johnson rifle?

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:07:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Victory At Sea

As I reported last Saturday, WNET, the PBS station in New York
City, broadcast the complete 26 epsiodes of VICTORY AT SEA; they
repeated it on Sunday afternoon.  I and others are very critical of
the film used on this show and that is a true statement.  However,
on second thought, there are a few things I would like to say in
defense of this show.

1. It was aired in 1952 just seven years after the end of the war.
Much of the material we now have available was not available at
that time.

2. This show was produced by a commercial television network, the
National Broadcasting Company (NBC).  Compare this quality program
with the trash that is now broadcast on the commercial networks.

3. Richard Rodgers composed the music for the show.  What a
score!!!

4. Leonard Graves was the narrator.  What a voice!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just my two cents.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

Ben Frank writes:


 >        By the way, while I have everybody's attention, in the Washington Post
 >yesterday, there was a story which said that the government, out of
 >appreciation for Japanese sensitivities, is not going to call or commemorate
 >V-J Day as V-J Day. The story says that the US and Japan agree that marking
 >WWII's end must be in low key. According to the article, and I quote,
 >"...Washington has assured Tokyo that U.S. government representatives at
 >commemorative events will avoid using the traditional term "V-J Day," short for
 >"Victory-over-Japan Day, to describe the end of the Pacific War. Instead, all
 >American material will simply refer to the "end of the war." I am absolutely
 >appalled and totally pissed off at this pusillanimous action on the part of the
 >government. It is an insult to all veterans of the Pacific War, living and
 >dead, and I call upon the members of this list to take whatever action is
 >within their limits to sound off on the matter. When I cool down sufficiently,
 >I intend writing a letter to the Post. Whether it is published, is another
 >story. An accompany article is headed: "V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era." What a
 >crock! Ben Frank, spring loaded in a pissed off position.

OK Ben, now that you are pissed off, let me piss you off some more.  In
yesterday's (Mon, 6 Mar) edition of the New York Times, there was an
article stating that many members of the Japanese legislature do not want
to appologize to other Asian countries for the Japanese actions during
WWII.  It seems that the Japanese "were liberating these fellow Asians from
the white man's colonialism" or some such bovine excrement.  I saved the
article and will post excerpts from it tonight.  But Ben, before you read
it, please take your Valium and fasten your seat belt!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:29:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

Hello, Ben!

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment below!

What agenda does the government have to try and "play down" what the
vets tried so hard to accomplish? To me this is back-stabbing of the
worst sort.

Thanks for the post and allowing my two cents' worth on this.

All the best.

Terry

> "...Washington has assured Tokyo that U.S. government representatives at
> commemorative events will avoid using the traditional term "V-J Day," short for
> "Victory-over-Japan Day, to describe the end of the Pacific War. Instead, all
> American material will simply refer to the "end of the war." I am absolutely
> appalled and totally pissed off at this pusillanimous action on the part of the
> government. It is an insult to all veterans of the Pacific War, living and
> dead, and I call upon the members of this list to take whatever action is
> within their limits to sound off on the matter. When I cool down sufficiently,
> I intend writing a letter to the Post. Whether it is published, is another
> story. An accompany article is headed: "V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era." What a
> crock! Ben Frank, spring loaded in a pissed off position.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:39:25 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Re: Victory At Sea

It seems the older and more expert we get the more critical we are, I have a
very fond memory of setting in the den with my father and watching these
shows. It made me ask questions of him I would never have thought of at that
age. I gained a lot of respect for my dad when I saw his ship the USS Evans
after the four kamakazi aircraft had hit his ship, I started asking some
questions when dad went to his bedroom and brought out some papers and very
small little sack.  He showed me the presidential citation write up the ship
and let me hold the little sack.  I learned it was a prayer booklet taken
off one of the Japanese pilots.  I also learned he had given the parachute
to my grandmother.  The pray book is now on board the USS Alabama in the
Chiefs Quaters, which is a memorial to the Evans.  Victory at sea still does
today what it did for me then, it makes the children ask questions of their
fathers and granfathers. It may not be perfect, but in the eyes of this
third generation retired Chief Petty Officer I see all the shipmates that
went before!
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:43:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: VJ Day

Ben Frank writes:
 >        By the way, while I have everybody's attention, in the Washington Post
 >yesterday, there was a story which said that the government, out of
 >appreciation for Japanese sensitivities, is not going to call or commemorate
 >V-J Day as V-J Day. The story says that the US and Japan agree that marking
 >WWII's end must be in low key. According to the article, and I quote,
 >"...Washington has assured Tokyo that U.S. government representatives at
 >commemorative events will avoid using the traditional term "V-J Day," short for
 >"Victory-over-Japan Day, to describe the end of the Pacific War. Instead, all
 >American material will simply refer to the "end of the war." I am absolutely
 >appalled and totally pissed off at this pusillanimous action on the part of the
 >government. It is an insult to all veterans of the Pacific War, living and
 >dead, and I call upon the members of this list to take whatever action is
 >within their limits to sound off on the matter. When I cool down sufficiently,
 >I intend writing a letter to the Post. Whether it is published, is another
 >story. An accompany article is headed: "V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era." What a
 >crock! Ben Frank, spring loaded in a pissed off position.

For those of you who wish to blast someone, Bill Clinton's e-mail
address is:

      PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV

Have at 'em!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:49:32 -0500
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Re: Victory At Sea

"I and others are very critical of the film used on this show and that is a
true statement."
What are you getting at? What do you and the others find objectionable?
Just wondering, Ron

Ron Musco
Poquonock,CT  The Statewith the #1 Women's Basketball Team in the country.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:48:24 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

Ben,
        As soon as I read your message I sent off an e-mail to Clinton
making my feelings known about this.  For those of you who don't know,
his address is PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:36:02 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

>        I wanted to mention that my calling Admiral Tanaka "the Japanese Kelly
>Turner" was a referral to his specialization in troop and invasion transport,
>not to any unpopular angles of the Japanese admiral's personality.  Overall,
>the US Navy was populated with some pretty good commanders in the admirals'
>ranks.  Chester Nimitz, the Pacific commander-in-chief, emerges as an
>operational mastermind and cool-headed war leader, Ray Spruance was (IMHO)
>prudent without being timid, and the American Navy also had the benefit of a
>solid second line of subordinate admirals like Mitscher, Jesse Ohlendorf, and
>the Chinese-American "Ching" Lee.


Does anyone out there have any bio info on "Ching" Lee - I have never heard
of this gentleman.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:59:44 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: "Ching" Lee

I answered my own question - "Ching" Lee is Read Adm. Willis Lee of Task Force
64 and the Battle of Guadalcanal.

"Stand Aside, I'm coming through. This is Ching Lee"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:49:27 -0500
From:    James Ray Watkins <dawgonpete@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

Ben Frank:

I probably don't want to step in here, but how would the U.S. government do
this? I do not mean this as a rhetorical question. It does seem distorting,
and insulting, but then again, does anyone know how to remember a war
without igniting exactly the old hatreds that the vets fought to stop? Seems
less like PC than a real problem to me. Would it work to have the Japanese
assist (given that they would fight that); if so, how? I think if we are
going to write the President we should have something more specific than
'that sucks!' I'm curious because, even if I sympathize with Vets, I don't
see any answers coming out of the complaints. What kinds of risks do you
think it would be worth taking, given the power of the Japanese
economically? It this a problem that isn't a problem? That is, the Japanese
would hem and haw but do nothing? If not, what do you think they would do?
Sorry for just questions, but I would really like to see how this could work
out: something concrete I would be willing to put my name to.


Ray Watkins
A.I., Department of Rhetoric and Composition
English, University of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:38:10 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: INF: Changes in German High Command

   General Model had been promoted to German commander-in-chief on the
western front, replacing Rundstedt. Known as a zealous nazi, it was assumed
that Hitler was placing nazi party in high command on the western front
as he had done on the eastern front. This additional political control of
the high command was obviously forseen by Hitler, who wanted to bring the
German nation down with him.

-Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:43:05 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F

In response to the comments generated by my post on the restoration
efforts on the P-38F recovered from under the ice on Greenland...

The six P-38s were part of the 94th FS of the 1st FG - the famous
"Hat in the Ring" squadron of WWI fame.  The pilots for the six
aircraft were Lts. Carl F. Rudder, Harry L. Smith, Dallas "Spider"
Webb, Robert B. Wilson, Robert H. Wilson (no relation), and the
section leader for "Tomcat Yellow", Joseph B. "Brad" McManus.

McManus was the first to land.  Low on fuel, he had lowered his flaps
and landing gear in order to make a slow pass over what seemed to be
a promising emergency landing area.  As he opened his throttles to
climb away, both engines coughed and died from lack of fuel and he
settled in.  When the gear broke through the crust of ice and sank into
the slushy snow, the nosewheel snapped backwards and the aircraft
flipped over on its back, losing its left prop in the process.  McManus
survived with only a sprained shoulder.

The other five P-38s and one of the B-17s belly landed, with the pilot
of one of the P-38s shutting down his engines and feathering his props
before landing.  Because of the potential for less damage, this is the
aircraft that was recovered in 1992.  The second B-17 continued to circle
overhead for about a half hour, continuously transmitting its position
and the situation before it too was forced down bay lack of fuel.
Radio operators at both Bluie West One (BW1) and BW8 were able to get
a fix on the location.  A C-47 dropped supplies by parachutetwo days
later (17 July), and on 19 July, a PBY guided a rescue team with a dogsled
to the downed aircraft.  McManus and the two Norden bombsights from the
B-17s rode out on the dogsled, while the rest of the crew hiked 15 miles
across the ice to a waiting rescue boat.

It's my underestanding that the pilot of the aircraft that was recovered
in 1992 survived WWII, dying in the 1970s or so.  The recovery team
borrowed photographs from his next of kin to help pinpoint the relative
positions of the aircraft.  Several articles were returned to his
family after the aircraft was recovered.  BTW, Brad McManus was part of
the recovery team.

In response to questions regarding the recovery/restoration team's naming
of the aircraft, and designing a piece of nose art, to my knowledge the
aircraft originally carried no name or artwork.  As I may have mentioned
before, the only decoration appears to have been the insignia blue paint
on the wheel covers.  I still haven't heard anyone associated with the
restoration effort definitely indicate that the nose art will be painted
on the aircraft.  Perhaps they will merely display it on a signboard, but
I tend to doubt it.  The artwork is not very risque, and the style is
reminiscent of WWII-era pinups as in Esquire magazine, for example.

My personal preference (which is of almost entirely no consequence), is
that they do not paint it on.  But, while I'm no expert at aircraft
restoration, it does look like the team is going to extraordinary effort
to restore it to original condition, and I for one can overlook this
bit of vanity/public relations effort.  I hope that it does tour for
a while on the airshow circuit, giving people a chance to see this
unique piece of aviation history in flight.

After mailing off photographs of the aircraft to several people on the
list, I still have 30 or 40 shots left over.  If anyone else is interested,
drop me a note, and I'll be glad to send you a few.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:04:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polish resistance

On 5 March, Nechama Cox wrote:

> I was just reading a book on the begining of the war and there was a
> mention to the Jewish defence of Warsaw when Poland was attacked in 1939.
> I have not hear of this before and I would be interested in any information
> on the topic that people could send my way.

Nechama,
     I have never read anything about a Jewish defense of the city of
Warsaw, but considering the fact that a significant portion of the
city's population was Jewish I would think that a great many Jewish
Poles would have helped to defend the city.  The city of Warsaw resisted
the Germans' attacks for so long that the western Europeans were
impressed by their efforts.  The London Polish government in exile
awarded the city the Vituti Militari, the highest award for valor
that the Poles had (comparable to the CMH).  Only once before had an
entire city been awarded the medal, the city of Lwow was awarded the
medal during the Russo-Polish War of 1919-1921.  The Germans were so
upset by the Poles stubborn resistence that they executed the mayor
after he was captured.  I hope this helps answer your question.

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:29:02 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: VJ Day "remembered"

Can the person who posted the information about changing VJ Day
to "the end of the war" Day please post a source?  I've got
several people wanting some corroboration before they start
yelling at people!  Thanks!

---

Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |
National Semiconductor   |           DON'T   TREAD   ON   ME               |
Santa Clara, Ca          |                                                 |
alan@berlioz.nsc.com     |                                                 |

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:38:40 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Johnson Automatic Rifle

What caliber was this rifle? 30.06?

Was this rifle found to be a "dud" like the Reising smg in combat conditions?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:37:27 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

> Ben Frank:
>
> I probably don't want to step in here, but how would the U.S. government do
> this? I do not mean this as a rhetorical question. It does seem distorting,
> and insulting, but then again, does anyone know how to remember a war
> without igniting exactly the old hatreds that the vets fought to stop? Seems
> less like PC than a real problem to me. Would it work to have the Japanese
> assist (given that they would fight that); if so, how? I think if we are
> going to write the President we should have something more specific than
> 'that sucks!' I'm curious because, even if I sympathize with Vets, I don't
> see any answers coming out of the complaints. What kinds of risks do you
> think it would be worth taking, given the power of the Japanese
> economically? It this a problem that isn't a problem? That is, the Japanese
> would hem and haw but do nothing? If not, what do you think they would do?
> Sorry for just questions, but I would really like to see how this could work
> out: something concrete I would be willing to put my name to.

Actually, many holiday or commemorative names have been changed over time.
Sometimes logically, sometimes unfortunately.

Every 4th of July, we Americans celebrate a day where we won our independence
by force from our now friend and ally, England.  On the other hand, Memorial
Day -- a day to remember those who have given their lives for our freedoms,
has been reduced to a paid day off of work and beer and picnic parties.

VJ day is not a holiday.  Nor is VE day.  Nor are these officially recognized
every year, such as Independence Day.

This year is the 50th anniversary of the final year of WWII.  Many of those
who lived through this time are still with us.  Although with a different
feel, there will even be VE Day commemorations in Berlin.

No one wants to revive or rekindle any old hatreds or angers.  The whole
purpose of commemoration is to remember the history, what happened and
why.

Japan is our friend today.  So is Germany, Italy, Spain, Mexico, England
and many other countries we found ourselves at war with at some point or
another.  By remembering those times when we were not friends and allies
may just help us preserve that friendship.

It's mostly a subconscious anger brewing at our own leaders.  WWII was a
bloody, brutal war and many people are still alive with first hand knowledge
and remembrance of it.  To protect the "Sensitivities" of our now-friend, then
enemy is enough to generate some sort of anger and frustration.

But "downplaying" the term "VJ Day" is usually not enough.  Why are people
angry today at this?  Because it's not the first occurrence of bowing in to
the questions we keep asking ourselves.  Many people, most of whom weren't
around 50 years ago, haven't come to terms with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  A
sort of self-guilt has been created.

The U.S. intervened in the post-office and cancelled a stamp depicting the
A bomb in order to protect the sensitivities of our Japanese friends.  The
cancellation of the Smithsonian exhibit on the Enola Gay was roundly
criticized by the Japanese as a lost opportunity to "tell the true story"
around the event.  The Japanese government has requested that the U.S. does
not even invite them to WWII Commemorations and to respect their sensitivities,
the U.S. agreed.  Now, we will downplay VJ Day -- the day ALL of WWII came to
an end and all major hostiltiies and killing ended -- in order to protect
the sensitivities of Japan.

Japan is our friend and ally.  We should never forget it.  We shouldn't build
displays that try to create or revive animosities or anger.  But we also should
not deny history, what was done and what was sacrificed.

People aren't angry that the U.S. is downplaying the term VJ Day.  They're
getting angry because it is just one more in a long list of self-deprecating
actions that do an injustice to the memory of those who served then and those
who still survive today.  Most everyone has come to terms with their history.
If Japan has not, or refuses to, that is not anyone else's responsibility but
their own.  It is not our responsibility to subdue a major event in our own
history in order to protect those sensitivities.

This commemoration is a once-in-a-half-century event.  There will be another
remembrance of it in 50 years.  If it ever receives major recognition after
that, it will be on a 100 year basis.

For God's sake, it's not a holiday.  It's a remembrance of a major world-
shaking earth-shattering event that changed the world forever and created a
"ripple effect" that will be felt for centuries to come.

Commemorations must be tasteful and professional.  They must be truthful and
accurate.  They must be historical and educational.  They must be neutral and
not political.  They must not, however, be damaged because of political
agenda or fears.  That's just an insult to all who served -- Allied and
Japanese alike.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:45:20 -0800
From:    Chris Albee <cea@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: NOST:  UK Sites

I'm heading to London in a few weeks, and would like to hear any opinions
about the various WWII-related sites and museums within day-tripping
range of london.

Hard facts (locations, costs, hours, etc.) would be welcome as well.

Thanks,
chris

chris albee, cea@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:26:00 CST
From:    Richard Battig <BATT@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

While I must agree with you on this subject, President Clinton is our President
and should be titled as such.  If you do not like him, that is your right as
an American.  He however deserves the title.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:56:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

On 3 March, 1995, William Lippert wrote:

>     And that, in the end, is a tough question - who should pay the price?
> Is it fair for Speer and Doenitz and Ribbentrop to be the scapegoats for
> the entire nation?  Or is it fair for all the Germans to pay for the
> crimes of a few?  Or should the average bureacrat pay the price for simply
> doing his job, with little recourse, both under the command of people
> like Goebbels or Himmler and for the benifit of the German people as a
> whole who are not much less guilty than themselves?

William,
     I am not about to excuse Speer or Ribbentrop, but I have always
believed that Doenitz got a raw deal.  From what I have read, his only
"war crime" was that he was named Hitler's successor.  In fact, wasn't
part of the reason that Hitler picked him related to the fact that
Doenitz had remained outside of the politics of the Third Reich and
remained primarily a military man?  Just wondering!

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:20:22 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Johnson Rifle

I don't think my first posting got through so I'll repost (if the first
shows up I'll have egg on my face ;))

        Captain Melvin M Johnson Jr (USMCR) produced his first working
semi-automatic rifle in 1936, though it was to go through several changes
and modifications before it was perfected.  In 1940 he submitted it as a
possible service rifle, and a bitter partisan wrangle ensued between
supporters of johnson and those in favor of the Garand.  But the facts were
beyond despute.  The Garand had been in production for four years; 50,00
were inservice, and the 'bugs' were out of it; whereas the Johnson was a
relatively unknown quantity which would take quite a while to reach the
same state of perfection - and 1940 was no time for the US Army to change
horses mid-stream.
        However, others were in more desperate straits and the Netherlands
East Indies Army ordered 50,000 rifles.  Manufacture began, and the US
Marine Corp, unable to obtain Garand rifles as fast as it needed them, also
bought several thousand.  Production continued throughout the war, though
the USMC gradually replaced the Johnson with the Garand as supplies became
available and the Johnson was only used by the OSS and similar special
forces in the end.  Its reliability was not as good as the Garand and it
was continually being modified during production in the hope of improving
matters.
        The Johnson rifle was unusual in that it operated on the short
recoil principle, probably the only succesful military rifle ever to do so.
It had several ingeneous features, notably the rotary magazine which could
be topped up even with the bolt closed.  The barrel could be removed for
carrying, a feature which attracted intrest from the US Airborne forces who
used some of them.  After the war, however, the Johnson rifle was withdrawn
and has not been produced since.
        Johnson also produced a machine gun which used the same operating
principle as did the rifle.  It was fitted with a bipod and fed from a box
magazine on the left side which could be topped up from the right side of
the gun without having to remove it.  It was offered to the US Army and
turned down, but tthe Dutch Government ordered several thousand for use in
the Netherlands East Indies.  Before this order was completed the Japanese
overran the Indies and the balance of the production order was taken by the
US Army Rangers and the US Marines.  Though it was an excellent design and
made to high standards, it was too delicate to stand the rough and tumble
of combat and was prone to jam at inconvenient moments

The Encyclopedia of World War II  John Keegan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:22:44 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: WELCOME TO LIST

  FOR JOHN BAXTER JONES
  I want to welcome you to the list.  Thanks for the background about
you.  I note you were in the 4th Infantry Division in Viet Nam.  By
coincidence, I was in it in WWII, as users of this list know.  I post
from time to time excerpts from my memoir LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR.
Hopefully you saw the recent one on my leave in Paris.
  I suppose you know there is a 4th Division Association and hope you
are a member.  If not, send me an EMAIL message, and I will tell you
about it.
  Regards, John Ausland, Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:18:41 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: LETTERS HOME

  FOR MIKE OAKS AND NEWCOMERS
  Glad you enjoyed the story of my leave in Paris.  Having helped, in
a modest way, liberate it, I still have a love affair with that city
and have enjoyed my many visits there since the war.
  You are right that my LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR is out of print.  I
have not plans to do another printing, because it is so much work to
market it.  I have, however, made a electronic version, which should
appear on the World Wide Web someday but I have no idea when.  The
fellow who plans to do it has difficulty getting around to it.
  In the meantime, I am peddling the book on disk.  Anyone sending me
an EMAIL message will get a flyer about this.
  Another thought.  The book is in a few libraries in the US.  For
example, the Firestone Library at Princeton, my alma mater, has a
couple copies.  There is also one at the Library of Congress.  Perhaps
your local library can borrow a copy for you on an interlibrary loan.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:41:08 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

Ron Babuka,

>>the Chinese-American "Ching" Lee.
>
>
>Does anyone out there have any bio info on "Ching" Lee - I have never heard
>of this gentleman.
>
I don't have a lot, But I assure you he was not Chinese American! The
"Ching" nickname was from an assignment in the Asiatic Fleet and he was a
recognized gunnery/battleship "expert".

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:41:19 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F

>In response to the comments generated by my post on the restoration
>efforts on the P-38F recovered from under the ice on Greenland...
>
>After mailing off photographs of the aircraft to several people on the
>list, I still have 30 or 40 shots left over.  If anyone else is interested,
>drop me a note, and I'll be glad to send you a few.
>
>Dennis E. Sparks
>sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
>Lexington, Kentucky
Dennis,
My 19 year old would very much like to have some of the pictures - he is
just getting really interested in WW II. I would be interested as well, as
a long time wargamer/history nut. Please send to :
Jim O'Neil
PO Box 555
Hereford, AZ 85615

Thanks,


Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:16:49 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F

Dennis E. Sparks <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU> writes:
> After mailing off photographs of the aircraft to several people on the
> list, I still have 30 or 40 shots left over.  If anyone else is interested,
> drop me a note, and I'll be glad to send you a few.

        Can anyone scan these photos in and be made available via ftp?
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
What's he want a yacht for?  There ain't no money in yachts...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:14:29 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Glacier Girl

X-Orig-From: "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>

 {regarding nose art on reconstructed aircraft that had none
originally - at least not on that particular aircraft}

> This is essentially why I personally waffle a bit on the issue.  I would
> still prefer it not be applied, but it can be construed as acceptable, even
> to the purist.  :-)

Robert Granvin's point is well taken.  I guess it depends on who the
target audience is.  If its a bunch of aeronautical engineers who are
concerned with airframe design then nose art is distracting.  If its
a 7th grade class history field trip then AUTHENTIC nose art would
give the plane more of a persona and in that sense a historical
context.  Commemorating the men vs the machine as Robert said earlier.

Consider if the Enola Gay had not had a name painted on it, what would
we have been having so much discussion about? - that B-29 that dropped
the first atomic bomb ?  Enola Gay is a nice handle for the concept.

>From a strictly geewhiz perspective {the only one I feel qualified to
promulgate where aircraft are concerned :-) } it is the planes with
the really cool Vargas girl nose art and racy logos that sell the
postcards at museums.  A guy I work with here at Kelly went to Wright
Patterson on business and went to the museum after the conference.  He
doesn't know a Fokker from a Foxbat but what did he take a picture
of?? - the B-24 named "Strawberry Bitch" and he has it displayed on
his desk as I write this.

So I say, as long as its appropriate to the era, nose art is ok if it
is to displayed to the public.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:34:27 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Victory at Sea, et.al.

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  07-Mar-1995 02:34pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Victory at Sea, et.al.


         Aside from such PC things as commemorating the end of the war in
    the Pacific as opposed to V-J Day another personal temperature-riser
    are the inexcusable uses of visuals not even closely related to the
    topic at hand.  _Victory at Sea_ is just one example and, somewhat
    cognizant of Jack's excuses for this series, it strikes me that this
    problem is rooted in simple laziness.
         There are thousands and probably millions of feet of film from the
    war in, yes, hundreds of repositories requiring hundreds of hours to
    search for the right material.  A hassle, but look at the alternatives:
    minor to gross misrepresentations of that war, which when added all
    together, present a warped sense of what happened.
         This is not a new problem.  Here in the US it dates back to the
    very first photographed war.  Brady, Gardner and others were all guilty
    of intentionally mislabeling photos, claiming to capture images of
    famous and infamous people or events - making the image fit the image.
    One might have thought that with modern times and sophistication such
    actions would have disappeared but perhaps man's vanity, laziness, and
    desire for profit overshadows mere historical accuracy.
         The problem even continues to this day.  A few years ago I saw a
    book on the Vietnam War which used two photos of an M-60 machinegun
    crew, several pages apart, shot from two different angles but labeled
    as different battles in two different places and times.
         Books are sometimes just as bad.  Cornelius Ryan (someone I'm
    close to since his archives are here) even used a photo in _A Bridge
    Too Far_ which turned out to be the 1940 German attack on Holland
    instead of an Allied resupply mission.  To his credit he had future
    editions corrected.  (I have attempted to do the same thing with the
    upcoming re-release of the book scheduled for this spring.)
         Granted, we who have images sould do a better job of getting the
    word out.  But these days there really is no excuse for dumping into
    programs wrong images just to have visuals or action.
         Then there are my complaints about bad maps in books.... I'll have
    to save that pet peeve for some other time.

    Doug McCabe



Received:  07-Mar-1995 02:34pm

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:46:16 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: INF: 'Bradley, concerning Patton

As you must imagine, the Tweflth Army Group would be privy to most of the
intelligence which the individual Armies had at their disposal, if not
the Corps commanders. Any discrepancy should be in the timing involved;
sooner or later Twelfth Army group should know the intell that was present.
That bit of reasoning I had moments after reading the following Forward,
written by Gen. of the Army Bradley about Gen Patton. The Forward is to
_Before the Colors Fade_ by Fred Ayer, Jr.

   "A leader - military or civilian - must be judged by results. Patton was
certainly a successful battle leader. He had a battle sense - a sixth sense
if I may call it that - which enabled him to foresee situations that were
developing and make dispositions to meet them. Some officers commented about
this even in maneuvers held just prior to World War II. I remember one
outstanding wartime example. After crossing the Moselle River near Coblenz
with about three divisions and moving rapidly south, he suddenly stopped
his advance and collected his forces. Some members of my 12th Army Group
staff expressed surprise and wondered why he did not keep going as the
advance was going so well. Knowing Patton's feel for battle, I suggested
there must be a reason which George felt but which was not apparent from
the information we had. True, the next day he was hit by a strong counter-
attack which he was able to repel because he had stopped and regrouped.
He then continued his advance." -Gen. Bradley, 1964




   The book has some memorable photos in it of Gen. Patton kneeling before
Prince Baudouin of Belgium, whom incidently was about 6 or 7 years old,...
There is also a photo just after his "leak" in the Rhine. Note that he
beat Montgomery across the Rhine by about 8-10 hours using bridging units.
Montgomery called for an enormous operation including a parachute drop
on the opposite bank, smoke, and some 18,000 men. It was an historical
event, since no modern army had crossed the Rhine in combat, and the
List knows that Patton didn't like being outstaged when it came to his
potential place in history.

-Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:50:58 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

The footage of that Austrian Battleship rolling over gets alot of play

in many different shows.  :)

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:10:58 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: INFO. German Camp Numbers?

People,
Can anyone out there either tell me the numbers that the Germans assigned to
their concentration and extermination camps or point me to a source? The
camps were all give a number begining with KZ. Such as KZ 123 for Nordhausen.
You get the picture. I would like to have these on file for future refs.
Thanks all,
Matthew Burchette

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:17:30 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: INFO. German Professor Abbreviations

People,
Here is another one for you. I am in the midst of reading a book on the V-1
and V-2 projects. There keep popping up abbreviations in front of scientists
names that I have no idea what they mean. Help! What does Dipl. Ing. and Dr.
Ing. mean when used in front of a persons name?
Thanks,
Matthew Burchette

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:20:32 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

Ray,

When I read Ben Frank's post the first thing I did was mail in to the
President, but I do see your point on this.  The memories of war are
nasty, but they should be otherwise we would think that war was a good
things (unintentionalized bastardization of quote), but the Japanese gov.
is getting really weird ideas on what happened in WWII, the last time
a nation this big a revision of history was in Germany circa 1930 when
people actually believed that their army had not been defeated in 1920.
When people start changing history, or revising it, the lessons that history
taught are changed.  Many Japanese are actually beginning to think that
they were 'freeing' the rest of East Asia (but don't ask the other
East Asians that question), which is wrong.  On the other hand, what
if Japan wants to tie her economy in to this?  We can play hardball too,
with the rest of east asia with us against Japan, and if we 'allow'
Iran to cut off the gulf to Japanese shipping, well...  My point is
I don't think the Japanese government would tie this in to the economy,
but they want to see how far they can push us to 'revise' our history,
and from their point of view everything they have done so far, from
the Abomb-stamp, to the Enola Gay, to the VJday they have won every,
battle, so why not continue pushing?  Maybe they can even get us to
change our flag from the flag that went up over so many criminally
murdered Japanese to a more benign format? (facetious)

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:23:14 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: WW I list info?

Sorry to bother this list with this query but I am certain some of you
would know the answer.  Would someone post directly to me the address
of the WW I list?
Thanks,
Brad Coon
coon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:30:28 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: More on Bong

        Since I shot off a quick reply on a list question regarding Richard
Bong, the top-scoring US fighter ace of the war, I wanted to make a few factual
adjustments (I won't say "correct my mistakes" because these are minor details
which do not really materially affect the accuracy of the incidents I
described.  Anyway, I was shooting from the hip).  Anyhow, in the incident I
referred to from spring 1943 (over Oro Bay, New Guinea), where Bong found
himself first with a Zero flying "wingman" for his P-38, then, escaping that
danger, went from the frying pan to the fire as he found himself confronted
with a whole flight of Zeros, that flight numbered nine Japanese planes, not
eight as I stated in the post (makes more sense when you consider the Japanese
operated in three-plane elements).  Also, when Bong spoke of the benefits of a
gunnery course he took between his two tours of combat duty, his actual words
were that had he taken it before his first tour he would have shot down 80
planes (instead of the 40 he is credited with-- in my post I misquoted Bong as
saying he would have had 20 more "kills."  Both minor points, I'm sure you'll
agree, but, hey, accuracy is accuracy.)  Most of this material, BTW, came from
Ray Tolliver, "Fighter Aces."
        While we're talking about Bong, I should also mention that in the fall
of 1944 he almost had a shot at his Japanese Army opposite number while
escorting a bombing raid over Balikpapan, Borneo (a mission which Bong
disobeyed orders to fly-- he was already due to be rotated out and was grounded
until the transport orders came through).  During that action Bong jumped three
Japanese Army Ki-43 fighters led by Lt. Satoshi Anabuki (proof-reading through
my Japan posts after the fact I see my flying fingers somehow truncated his
name to "Anaki").  Anabuki, commander by this time of 381st Sentai (roughly
equivalent to a squadron), I've seen credited with anywhere from 50+ to 70+
aerial victories-- the sources I've seen vary widely on Japanese Army aces.  If
the latter figure (70+) is correct, Anabuki would have been, as far as I know,
the Japanese Army's top fighter ace.  Whatever his actual score, the fact that
he was still alive in the second half of 1944 despite flying the Ki-43 alone
indicates he must have been a pretty good pilot (though by '44 he was flying
the improved version, with a little better speed and a tiny semblence of armor
protection).  At any rate, in fall '44, en route to the oil refineries of
Balikpapan, Bong jumped a three-plane element led by Anabuki, and shot down one
of the two trailing fighters.  Anabuki, however, alerted by the fate of his
wingman, utilized the superb maneuverability of his Ki-43 to break away, and
the two aces never actually locked horns.
        I should also say that losing one's wingman while concentrating on
attack maneuvers was a common fighter pilot's mistake, apparently easy to do in
the confusion and split-second decisions of high-speed fighter combat.  Even
experienced fighter pilots often did it.  Bong was lucky in his close scrape
over Oro Bay, but his survival is probably due to the fact that he remembered
to make sure his wing was covered before he got wrapped up in his attack.  One
famous American fighter pilot who didn't remember to check in a similar
situation paid for the omission with his life.  Col. Neal Kearby shot down 22
Japanese planes in a P-47 over New Guinea.  He won the Congressional Medal of
Honor for a mission over Wewak in October 1943.  Kearby was leading a
four-plane flight on a reconnaisance patrol over Wewak, a major Japanese base
(one of those that MacArthur's campaign deftly bypassed-- it was later taken by
Australian forces making an overland approach).  Their mission was completed,
they were low on fuel and headed home, when Kearby spotted a lone Japanese
fighter, apparently on patrol, pounced on it, and shot it down.  Then they also
saw a formation of a dozen Japanese bombers escorted by 36 fighters.  Despite
the odds of 12-to-1 against, and their low fuel situation, Kearby led his
flight into the attack.  He himself shot down three planes on his first deadly
pass through the Japanese formation.  Then, as a confused melee developed,
Kearby brought down two more Japanese fighters that were hanging on the tails
of other planes from his flight.  At last he led his Thunderbolts into the
safety of some clouds, and they headed for home, Kearby having bagged six enemy
aircraft in one mission.  As I said, Kearby met his death in a later action,
when, intent on shooting down a Japanese fighter, he did not notice that he had
lost his wingman.  Another Japanese fighter latched on to his tail, and
although this enemy plane was soon shot down by another American fighter, it
had already poured its fatal bursts into Kearby's P-47.  BTW, German ace Gerald
Barkhorn was shot down by Soviet number two ace Aleksandr Pokhryshin in similar
circumstances, when the Luftwaffe ace forgot to check his wing while boring in
on a Russian aircraft (Barkhorn survived a crash-landing but suffered arm and
leg wounds in the incident, from the summer of 1944).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:41:49 -0600
From:    "C.K. Bryant" <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO. German Professor Abbreviations

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Matthew R. Burchette wrote:

> People,
> Here is another one for you. I am in the midst of reading a book on the V-1
> and V-2 projects. There keep popping up abbreviations in front of scientists
> names that I have no idea what they mean. Help! What does Dipl. Ing. and Dr.
> Ing. mean when used in front of a persons name?
> Thanks,
> Matthew Burchette
>

Dipl. Ing.  is short for Diplom Ingenieur which world be someone who as a
certificate in engineering.

Dr. Ing. is short for Doktor Ingenieur which would be someone with his
doctorate in engineering.

Hope that helps.

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:13:47 -0600
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <dingbaum@HEP.NET>
Subject: Re: More on Bong

Mike Yaklich,

Your posts on Bong and others losing wingmen bring up a question.
What did you do if you lost your wingman?  Did you hookup with a
twosome or did you look for someone else who had lost theirs also?

Jeff Dingbaum
dingbaum@hep.net

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 23:40:36 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@HHIPE.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

> the skies.  The Kittyhawk, for those who don't know, was essentially a
> souped-up P-40 with a Spitfire (Rolls-Royce) engine installed, boosting
> the speed by 15-20 mph over current P-40 versions.  This was also the
> plane flown by Australia's top ace Clive Caldwell for most of his
> career in North Africa (he later switched to a Spitfire).

Mike, that's not entirely correct. In fact, it's wrong.  Blame the USAAF
and the RAF:  they created the confusion. Curtiss built in its 'Hawk'
series the Hawk 75, Hawk 81, and Hawk 87. The Hawk 75 was the model with a
radial engine. The USAAC gave its Hawk 75s the designation P-36. The Hawk
81 and Hawk 87 were all called P-40 Warhawk, regardless of the designation
applied by Curtiss. Up to the P-40C were model 81 aircraft, and all later
models were Hawk 87s.

But the British tried (for a change) to be logical. They called the Hawk
81 the Tomahawk and the Hawk 87 the Kittyhawk. Most models of the Hawk 87
were powered by versions of the Allison V-1710 engine. Very typically, the
designation Kittyhawk mk.I was applied to both the P-40D and P-40E,
Kittyhawk mk.II was used for the P-40F, Kittyhawk mk.III for both the
P-40K and P-40M, and Kittyhawk mk.IV for the P-40N. Yes, it is confusing!
So only some Kittyhawks, equivalent to the P-40F, had Rolls-Royce Merlin
engines. It was not standard British practice to rename an aircraft when a
new engine was introduced.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 18:14:15 -0500
From:    Scott C Stathis <stathis@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOST:  UK Sites

>
> I'm heading to London in a few weeks, and would like to hear any opinions
> about the various WWII-related sites and museums within day-tripping
> range of london.
>
> Hard facts (locations, costs, hours, etc.) would be welcome as well.
>
> Thanks,
> chris
>
> chris albee, cea@netcom.com
>

  Chris

     I would highly recommend to sights one is the Impereal War Museum in
London and the other is the RAF Museum outside of London (sorry I don't
remember the name of the town but the Tube does stop there.) it takes about
two hours to get there and is well whether the trip. You can ask your travel
agent about the exact local.


Hope this helps
Scott
stathis@student.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:04:00 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Last Japan appendix-- the battlewagon war

        Appendix 3: The Last Battlewagon War

        The Pacific war was essentially the campaign the battleship fleets of
both the US and Japanese Navies had been preparing to fight for the previous
twenty years.  Each navy had its own circle of senior admirals who had gained
much of their experience in the days before air power had become a major factor
in military operations (especially naval), back when the battleship was the
mightiest instrument of military force on the planet.  These men still believed
in the battle line's supremacy in contesting control of the seas.  Furthermore,
a huge proportion of each navy's budget and resources had gone into building
and maintaining these expensive monsters during the interwar years.  Just as
the US Navy had its "gun club" of conservative admirals who still thought the
battleship was the decisive naval weapon, Japanese naval war plans prior to
Yamamoto's tenure as commander of Combined Fleet all envisioned a "decisive
battle" which they would win with their battleships in more or less the same
fashion as Admiral Togo had defeated the Russians at Tsushima in 1905.
        Events, however, were to lead to a much different sort of war than the
battleship backers had predicted.  Battleships would still play a prominent
role in the fighting-- indeed, this was probably the last time these armored
behemoths would roam the wartime seas in such numbers-- and would even meet
head-to-head on several occasions in the sort of classic battle line actions
the "gun club" members foresaw.  But the decisive weapon of naval warfare in
the Second World War was destined to be air power, not surface gun power, and
this became clear very early on in the Pacific conflict-- in fact, from the
very first week of fighting.  The advent of Yamamoto and Fukodome to the
controlling positions in Japanese naval planning led to the emphasis on
airpower, particularly as deployed by aircraft carriers, in subsequent Japanese
Navy operations.  The success of these Japanese tactics left the Americans with
little choice but to reply in kind, especially since the opening Japanese
strike at Pearl Harbor left the US Navy in the Pacific temporarily without a
battleship fleet.  Only when the Japanese had lost their carrier-based air
weapon did they revert to trying to win the sea war with their battle line,
only to discover that air power had indeed made such tactics impractical in the
waters of 1944.
        Most of the interwar period had been governed by naval arms limitation
treaties among the major naval powers, which imposed absolute limits on the
numbers and tonnage of battleships the signatory nations could build.  The
ratio accepted between the three biggest navies, the US, British, and Japanese,
was 5:5:3-- i.e., for every five American or British battleships the Japanese
were allowed to have three.  Another clause limited the size of all new
battleships to under 35,000 tons.  The US and British navies generally tried to
design ships that could be combat-effective while remaining within the limits.
The Japanese, in the early post-World War I period, had launched an ambitious
battleship construction program which was one of the driving forces in leading
to the establishment of the treaties in the first place (battleships then being
considered more or less the equivalent of nuclear weapons today-- the most
terrible and most expensive weapons of war-- most governments were eager to
avoid a costly arms race in the tight post-war fiscal atmosphere).
        Japan had 11 battleships in December 1941.  Eight of these were older
vessels built during the First World War, but since modernized.  The KONGO,
KIRISHIMA, HARUNA, and HIEI were fast ships, almost in the battlecruiser class
(32,000 tons; eight 14-inch [356-mm] guns; armor 8 inches thick in main belt;
up to 30 knots).  The heavier FUSO, YAMASHIRO (35,000 tons, 24 knots), HYUGA,
and ISE (36,000 tons, 25 knots) were more traditional battleships, all carrying
a dozen 14-inch guns and main belt armor a foot thick.  But the two vessels
which created international attention were the post-WWI NAGATO and MUTSU, among
the most powerful ships in the world in the early 1920's (38,000 tons; eight
16-inch [406-mm] guns; main belt 13 inches; 25 knots).  Added to these older
ships, the Japanese received just as hostilities were commencing the brand new
YAMATO, the most powerful battleship ever built.  It mounted nine 18.1-inch
(460-mm) guns, with a maximum range of 35 miles! Its armor was 16 inches thick
in the main belt, up to 25 inches on the main gun turrets, and this 68,000-ton
monster could move through the water at 27 knots.  A sister ship, the MUSASHI,
was also nearing completion, and would be ready roughly a year later.
        The American battle fleet was also a mix of modernized older vessels
and powerful new ships.  Counting the new ships just entering service, the US
Navy had 17 battleships in December 1942, but of course the American Navy also
had a two-ocean commitment.  There were many classes, so I'll just mention that
the US fleet included (in addition to the pre-WWI ARKANSAS-- 26,000 tons,
twelve 12-inch [305-mm] guns, 21 knots, 11 inch armor in main belt) the WWI or
early post-WWI battleships NEW YORK, TEXAS (27,000 tons; ten 14-inch guns;
12-inch main belt; 21 knots), NEVADA, OKLAHOMA (29,000 tons; ten 14-inch guns;
13.5-inch belt armor; 20 knots), PENNSYLVANIA, ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO, IDAHO,
MISSISSIPPI, CALIFORNIA, and TENNESSEE (33,000 tons; twelve 14-inch guns;
14-inch belt armor; 21 knots).  Added to these dozen older ships were the more
powerful WEST VIRGINIA, MARYLAND, and COLORADO (32,000 tons; eight 16-inch
guns; belt armor up to 16 inches thick; 21 knots).  These latter three reveal
the tendency of US battleship design for much of the interwar period,
emphasizing heavy gunpower and armor above all other considerations.  The US
ships were able to carry such heavy above-the-waterline protection, BTW,
because they adopted the British "all-or-nothing" concept, which essentially
stated that instead of uniformly armoring the whole ship, extra protection was
concentrated around vital areas-- like the main belt and the bridge tower--
while less essential parts of the ship were given either token protection or
none at all.
        The two newest US battleships at the time of Pearl Harbor were the
WASHINGTON and NORTH CAROLINA, just entering service (37,000 tons; nine 16-inch
guns; 12 inch main belt; 28 knots).  These ships reflected a rethinking of
design concepts to the extent that they sacrificed some of their protection in
favor of greater mobility, but acheived a pretty good balance between
firepower, protection, and speed.  The small bugs and flaws in the design of
these ships were largely rectified in the succeeding SOUTH DAKOTA class (SOUTH
DAKOTA, INDIANA, ALABAMA, MASSACHUSETTS), all of which entered service in 1942
(37,000 tons; nine 16-inch guns; 28 knots; main belt armor 12.25 inches, with
major improvements to underwater protection).  These vessels rendered very good
service in the coming conflict, but were soon supplanted by the even better
IOWA-class ships.  Probably the most efficient battleships of the war, the
IOWA-class ships set new standards for large warship design.  At 46,000 tons
(well over 50,000 tons combat-loaded) they were most impressive for their
speed, making an astounding 33 knots, and thus capable of operating with the
fastest new carriers to form extremely powerful task forces.  Their firepower
was also first-rate, with nine 16-inch guns, and armor plate was 12.25 inches
in the main belt.  The general excellence of this design was reflected by the
fact that some of these ships still were able to play a useful role in the
recent Persian Gulf war, and are only being retired from active service as we
speak.  The first of these four ships (IOWA, MISSOURI, NEW JERSEY, WISCONSIN)
were delivered in 1943, and all four were active by 1944.
        The characteristics of the IOWA-class vessels showed how the role of
the battleship had changed by the second half of the Pacific war.  No longer
were they expected primarily to face their opposite numbers of the Japanese
Navy in a head-to-head slugfest a la Tsushima or Jutland.  Now their task was
to operate along with the fast carriers, to give support and protection against
enemy heavy ships if such appeared, but primarily to act as swift, floating gun
platforms for conventional and antiaircraft artillery.  All of the US
battleships from the WASHINGTON on carried the superlative secondary armament
of twenty dual-purpose 5-inch (127-mm) guns.  These weapons, with a very rapid
rate of fire when served by a properly-trained crew (on the American
battlewagons they all were), were often deadly against surface targets of all
kinds, but they also functioned as heavy antiaircraft guns.  In this latter
employment they truly came into their own when utilizing another example of the
American technological superiority, the proximity fuse.  This was essentially a
tiny, very short-range radar built into the nose of the shell.  The radar
detonated the shell as soon as it was close enough to detect an enemy plane
(i.e., whenever its signal bounced back).  Used during the final year of the
Pacific war, these shells made the 5-inch a truly formidable antiaircraft
weapon.  But US battleships, even by mid-war, were bristling with antiaircraft
guns of all kinds.  For example, at the end of 1943 the WASHINGTON carried (in
addition to the twenty 5-inch guns) 60 automatic 40-mm Bofors guns (on twin
mounts) and 83 automatic 20-mm Oerlikons.  Even a single ship thus provided
could throw up an impressive AA barrage all by itself.
        I didn't mention the British, although they too had 15 battleships and
battlecruisers in 1939, and some of these came to be involved in the Pacific
fighting.  Most of the British battle fleet was at any rate tied down in
European and Mediterranean waters for much of the war (where their chief
preoccupation, post-war historical slant aside, was the Italian fleet for much
of the conflict).  The British battle line included ten old WWI ships (three of
them modernized) mounting eight 15-inch (381-mm) guns each.  They were also
building five newer vessels, the KING GEORGE V-class (KING GEORGE V, PRINCE OF
WALES, DUKE OF YORK, ANSON, HOWE).  These were fast and well-protected,
although the British had made the decision of arming them with smaller 14-inch
guns (a policy Churchill, among others, disputed).  The first of these new
British battleships entered service in 1940, and all five were operational by
1943.
        The Pacific war began with two major disasters for the Allied battle
fleets.  The first and most dramatic, of course, was the virtual destruction of
the US Pacific Fleet battleships at Pearl Harbor in the war's opening act.
Both of these debacles also demonstrated in a fearsome manner the ascendancy of
airpower over conventional surface warships, and gave rise to the dramatic
change in the battleship's perceived role alluded to earlier.  At Pearl Harbor
the US Navy lost the OKLAHOMA, ARIZONA, WEST VIRGINIA, and CALIFORNIA sunk; the
NEVADA beached to prevent sinking; the MARYLAND and the TENNESSEE badly
damaged; and the PENNSYLVANIA, which was in dry dock at the time, also damaged
but less severely.  That amounted to eight of the Pacific Fleet's nine
battleships out of action (albeit temporarily) and forced the US planners to
adopt a strategy, like it or not, in which the battle line would not play the
leading tactical role.  I mentioned earlier the meticulous Japanese training
and preparations for this attack.  Not least of these was in weapons
development, some of which was geared to this specific operation.  Much of the
damage to the US battleships at Pearl was caused by Nakajima B5N bombers of the
first wave.  These single-engined, three-seat aircraft were already nearing the
end of their usefulness in late 1941, being too slow and vulnerable to operate
effectively in the face of heavy fighter opposition-- not a big problem at
Pearl because most of the US fighters were caught on the ground and destroyed
by attacks against the main Hawaiian airfields (see note at the end of this
text on US fighter response on 12/7/41).  Their versatility, however, made the
B5N's still usefull, in that they could serve as either level or torpedo
bombers.  One important Japanese technical breakthrough, just in time for the
Pearl Harbor operation, was the development of an air-dropped torpedo that
could run in Pearl's shallow water-- in many places no more than 35 feet deep--
without hitting bottom.  Another, more primitive but nonetheless ingenious
expedient was the creation of special armor-piercing bombs, made by essentially
welding fins on to standard 16-inch armor-piercing naval shells, to penetrate
the armored decks of the ships moored in "Battleship Row" at Pearl.  The B5N's
in the attack carried either a torpedo, the special AP bombs made from shells,
or the Japanese Navy's standard 551-lb anti-ship bomb.  The other type of
Japanese aircraft in the attack (besides the covering Zero fighters) was the
Aichi D3A dive-bomber.  Like the Army's later Ki-51, the D3A lived by its
superb maneuverability-- when not carrying bombs it could dogfight with most
contemporary American fighters-- but it lacked the Ki-51's armor protection,
and these aircraft too would prove increasingly vulnerable when confronted with
enemy fighter defenses.  The D3A was limited as a means of shipping attack by
its inability (normally) to carry bombs heavier than 220 lbs.  However, a
compensating factor was the accuracy of its form of attack, honed to an art
form by the Japanese carrier pilots through constant practice (and through
learning to dive to lowest possible altitude before releasing their bombs and
pulling out-- this was how they acheived hits with a reported 80% of their
bombs dropped against British cruisers in the Indian Ocean a few months later).
        It was the torpedos which proved the most devastating to the ships at
Battleship Row.  OKLAHOMA and WEST VIRGINIA were hit by nine torpedoes each.
CALIFORNIA-- its watertight doors below deck open for a routine inspection at
the time of the attack-- was sunk by two.  The OKLAHOMA capsized, taking 400
men down with it.  It was hits by two of the special 16-inch shell bombs,
however, that caused the spectacular explosion of the ARIZONA, which killed
some 1,200 of the 1,500 men on board, including Rear-Admiral Kidd-- roughly
half the total fatalities suffered by the Americans at Pearl that day.  The
Japanese pilots took their time-- Fuchida led his flight around for two "dry
runs" over Battleship Row before finally dropping his bombs on the third pass.
The accuracy of the attacks, especially from the torpedo bombers (who also put
several torpedoes into the target ship UTAH, an old battleship, in a case of
mistaken identity), reflected not only their skill developed by long and
realistic training, but also the fact that their targets were sitting ducks.
Of all the US battleships, only the NEVADA managed to get under way during the
raid-- despite having already been hit by a torpedo and shaken by near misses
from five heavy bombs.  The NEVADA was hit by five more bombs from dive-bombers
of the second wave as it tried to navigate through the narrow exit from the
harbor, but it was damage below the waterline from the single torpedo hit that
forced her captain to beach the ship.
        Two days after the debacle at Pearl, another disaster overtook the
Allied battleship forces in the Pacific.  The British had managed to base a
small battle squadron known as "Force Z" at Singapore, hoping the presence of
these ships would be a deterent to the Japanese (a carrier was supposed to also
be part of this force but the one earmarked was undergoing repairs on the other
side of the world in December 1941).  "Force Z," under Admiral Tom Phillips,
consisted of the new battleship PRINCE OF WALES (38,000 tons; ten 14-inch guns;
28 knots; main belt armor 15 inches) and the First World War battlecruiser
REPULSE (32,000 tons; six 15-inch guns; 27+ knots; nine inches of belt armor).
While investigating a (false) report of Japanese landings on Malaya's east
coast, the ships of "Force Z" were set upon by a strong force of Japanese Navy
G3M land-based two-engined bombers.  Despite the heavy antiaircraft armament on
the modern PRINCE OF WALES, with 170 barrels capable of providing AA fire, both
ships were sunk, the PRINCE OF WALES taking five torpedoes and one bomb, the
REPULSE hit by four torpedoes and a bomb.  Of about 3,000 crewmen on the two
ships, some 2,000 were saved, but Admiral Phillips and Captain Leach of the
PRINCE OF WALES chose to go down with their ship (Captain Tennant of the
REPULSE also wanted to remain but was dragged off by his officers).  The
Japanese lost three planes.

        For brevity's sake I'll break this into two parts.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich



------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 18:23:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Kelvin Luther wrote:

        Finally, the only country not to contribute to the holocaust was
Bulgaria.  They refused to export their Jewish population to Poland, and
were the only European country in the German domain to see a war time
increase in their Jewish population.  It was possible for people to
resist collaborating with the holocaust and your right, France deserves
to be exposed for their unparalleled amount of collaboration.

Kelvin,
     While the Bulgarians may not have actively contributed to the
Holocaust, the fact that they were an Axis power prevents them from
claiming that they had no part in the Holocaust.  By giving military
aid to the Germans they allowed the Germans to divert men and material
to the Concentration Camps.  Someone else suggested that the Poles
might have been both anti-German and anti-Semitic.  Using that analogy
the Bulgarians might be described as pro-German and pro-Jewish.

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 8 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 8 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow
  P-70, Douglas

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 34 B-24s, supported by 21
P-51s, pound Shihkiachwang; 3 B-24s claim a transport sunk in the S China
Sea; 16 B-25s and 6 P-40s attack railroad tracks, boxcars, gun positions,
sampans, and locomotives, knock out 2 bridges and damage another, and destroy
and damage several locomotives at or near Hengshan, Yehhsien, Lohochai, and
Chungmow; 140+ fighter-bombers fly armed reconnaissance over wide areas of S
and E China, attacking numerous targets of opportunity, mainly river, road,
and railroad targets, storage areas, gun positions, and troops, concentrating
around Changsha, Changanyi, and a bridge at Puchi.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 P-47s support the
British 36 Division; 40 fighter-bombers hit troop concentrations and supply
areas along the battlefront and behind the enemy lines; 39 others sweep roads
S of the bomb line, attacking gun positions and other targets of opportunity.
Transports fly 554 sorties to advanced bases and over frontline areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 872: 1,353 bombers and 326 fighters are dispatched to hit benzol
plants, an oil plant and rail targets in Germany using PFF; NO AIRCRAFT ARE
LOST AND THERE ARE NO CASUALTIES!
  1. 360 B-24s are sent to hit marshalling yards at Betzdorf (70), Siegen
(114) and Dillenburg (73); targets of opportunity are Limburg (10) and
Frankfurt (10); bombing is by H2X radar; 3 B-24s are damaged. Escorting are
99 of 102 P-51s.
  2. 526 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Robert Muser (99) and Bruchstrasse
(63) benzol plants at Langendreer, the Gneisenau benzol plant at Dortmund
(110) and Heddernheim chemical factory at Frankfurt (122); secondary targets
are the marshalling yards at Giessen (69) and Frankfurt (18); 13 others hit
Wetzlar, a target of opportunity; bombing is with H2X radar; 26 B-17s are
damaged. The escort is 95 of 99 P-51s.
  3. 458 B-17s are sent to hit the Emil benzol plant at Essen (114), the
Mathies Stinnes benzol plant at Bottrop (37), the August Viktoria benzol
plant at Huls (111) and the synthetic oil plant at Buer Scholren (75); 109
hit the marshalling yard at Essen, a target of opportunity; bombing is by
Micro-H; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair. 93 of 98 P-51s escort.
  4. 9 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  5. 27 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 873: 11 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and Germany
during the night without loss.
  Mission 874: 15 B-24s attack the marshalling yard at Dortmund during the
night without loss and 4 of 7 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 328 B-26s, A-20s and A-26s hit 7
communications centers, 2 marshalling yards, a road overpass, and a military
transport depot in the furtherance of the interdiction program; weather
prevents fighter operations except for a small alert mission by the XXIX
Tactical Air Command (Provisional). Operational HQ of the XXIX Tactical Air
Command (Provisional), HQ 84th Fighter Wing and HQ 303d Fighter Wing move
from Maastricht, the Netherlands to Monchen-Gladbach, Germany; the
detachments of the 39th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) operating from Gosselies and Le Culot,
Belgium with F-5s, return to base at Jarny, France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 550+ B-17s and B-24s hit
marshalling yards at Hegyeshalom and Komarom, Hungary, and Verona, Italy, the
locomotive depot at Maribor, Yugoslavia, and the steel works at Kapfenberg,
Austria; P-51s and P-38s fly escort and reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers are
hampered by heavy clouds but hit the Novara marshalling yard, Longarone and
Mori rail fills, and Rovereto bridge; fighters and fighter-bombers pound
communications and supplies, destroy a road bridge SW of Bologna, severely
damage an ammunition plant and surrounding complex NW of Milan, and hit
several other targets, including a bridge near Montebello which Brazilian
P-47s operating with the XXII Tactical Air Command cut in half; A-20s,
operating during the night of 7/8 Mar, attack river crossings at Borgoforte,
Cremona, Ostiglia, San Benetto Po, Viadana, and Ora, and numerous vehicles,
lights, and general movement in the C Po Valley and along the Brenner line.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 14 B-24s from Guam Island bomb Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima Island through heavy cloud layers; 5 more B-24s hit the
airfield again in 5 individual harassment strikes during the night of 8/9
Mar.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s pound the
Zamboanga area on Mindanao Island. On Luzon Island, B-24s hit road targets at
Balete Pass while A-20s support guerrilla forces in the San Fernando area;
fighter-bombers hit fuel dumps, gun positions, and other targets near Angat
and Ipo dam and numerous targets of opportunity in the Antipolo area,
personnel and storage areas near Baguio, and several targets in the Cagayan
Valley (including the town of Caggay, the Dummun River area, and barges at
Naguilian). The 6th Combat Cargo Squadron, 2d Combat Cargo Group, based on
Biak Island with C-46s, begins operating from Samar Island; and the 550th
Night Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command, based on Morotai Island with
P-38s, P-61s and P-70s, sends a detachment to operate from Tacloban, Leyte
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0120Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:04:35 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:56:00 CST Alex Bielakowski said:
>
>William,
>     I am not about to excuse Speer or Ribbentrop, but I have always
>believed that Doenitz got a raw deal.  From what I have read, his only
>"war crime" was that he was named Hitler's successor.  In fact, wasn't
>part of the reason that Hitler picked him related to the fact that
>Doenitz had remained outside of the politics of the Third Reich and
>remained primarily a military man?  Just wondering!
>
>Alex Bielakowski

     I don't have the book with me, but Padfield in his biography of Doenitz
goes into detail about his trial and sentence.  As a general rule, the
Russians wanted them all to hang.  The British were a little more selective.
The Americans were probably the most forgiving.  In the case of Doenitz,
he was found guilty, I think, of waging aggressive war and war crimes.  The
first was because of his position as Fuhrer der U-Boat and then CINC-Kriegs-
marine.  The second was for his infamous "Laconia" order, I think it was
called, saying that (and this is not a direct quote but off the top of my
head) "the rescuing of surivivng crew members of enemy ships is incompatible
with the total war on the sea.  All efforts must be taken to see that the
crew of enemy ships do not hinder naval operations".  According to him,
he was just saying that U-boats shouldn't surface to rescue survivors for
longer than they had to - only to capture captains and other officers.
But in one incident, the U-boat Captain gunned down all the survivors
after rescuing the captain and the XO.
    Doenitz made the case that this was a misinterpretation of the order
and, no matter what anyone thought of it, the order had no applicability
because of the risks of surfacing for any length of time no matter what
the reason - gunning survivors or not.
    You can decide for yourself whether the "waging aggressive war" should
apply to Doenitz - that's a fairly subjective question.  As for the latter
order, it's hard to say precisely what he meant.  On the one hand, if
he really did give the order to gun survivors he should have been executed.
But if not, then maybe his term was a little harsh.
    In the end, the decision was a compromise.  I seem to recall that
Padfield said that the Tribunal did not issue any specific explanation,
only a "guilty on counts two and three" (I think it was those two).  The
Americans were ready to let him go, the Russians hated him, and the British
weren't overly fond of him, either.  The ten year sentence doesn't make
much sense but was the best punishment that they Allies could agree upon.
    As for the last Fuhrer part, I suspect that it applied more to the
Russians than the West.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:43:22 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: The Last Battlewagon War part 2

        The twin disasters of Pearl Harbor and the sinking of "Force Z" changed
the Allied approach to naval operations virtually overnight.  The question of
how to employ battleships became somewhat moot, as there were hardly any
battleships left to be employed.  The American Navy had to fight a carrier war
because that was all it had left.  The British Navy, which had four old,
non-modernized WWI battleships in the Indian Ocean, basically fled before the
raid of Kido Butai's carriers in the spring of '42 (after two heavy cruisers
and the small carrier HERMES had been lost to Japanese carrier air attacks).
The loss to the Americans from the Pearl debacle, however, was not permanent.
All of the battlewagons sunk at Pearl Harbor except the ARIZONA, which had
broken in half when it exploded, and the OKLAHOMA were eventually put back into
service.  Even the OKLAHOMA was raised, but was not considered worth repairing.
By 1944 all of the "lost" ships from Pearl Harbor were once again ready to
fight the Japanese, and saw considerable service in the last year or so of the
Pacific war.
        This service was nonetheless somewhat different from that envisioned
when the ships were first designed.  Increasingly, the job of the US
battlewagons came to be shore bombardment.  As the US Pacific counteroffensive
gained momentum, the value of these floating heavy artillery emplacements in
"softening up" island defenses before landings came to be increasingly
appreciated.  At Saipan in June 1944 the six battleships of Mitscher's carrier
task force, including the new IOWA-class ships, dropped 2,400 16-inch shells on
the island in two days.  Poor target selection and the relative inexperience of
these ship's crews at shore bombardment did (unfortunately for the Marines who
were about to land) limit the overall effect of this pounding.  After
complaints about inadequate fire preparation on Saipan, Guam was hit by some
28,000 naval shells (almost all of 5-inch or larger calibre) before the
landings began there.  The culmination of this awesome artillery support
potential was the invasion of Okinawa.  There the preliminary naval bombardment
lasted a week, during which 27,000 heavy shells were rained on the shore.  And
the battleships and other warships stayed around to provide further support,
usually directed by forward observer teams up with the combat infantry, once
the land fighting got under way.  On Saipan naval gunfire was particularly
effective against Japanese armor attempting to counterattack.  On Okinawa, in
the heaviest single day's bombardment of the Pacific war, 324 pieces of
artillery ashore were joined by six battleships, six cruisers, and eight
destroyers to plaster the Japanese main defense line with 19,000 shells in less
than 24 hours.  (Ironically, this did not seem to have a major effect on the
deeply dug-in Japanese-- I mentioned in an earlier post some effective antitank
tactics by the Japanese on Okinawa-- in this instance they knocked out 22
Shermans supporting the US Army's 27th Division during one day's assault on
Kakazu ridge).  The weight of explosive the battleship's heavy guns could
deliver was truly impressive.  Nevertheless, the tangible results of these
heavy bombardments were often less than expected.  I mentioned earlier the
complaints of inadequate pre-landing artillery preparation at Saipan.  The same
criticism was leveled at Iwo Jima, and even on Okinawa I remember Samuel Eliot
Morison writing of his surprise to note, after going ashore himself, that the
practical effects of the heavy shelling were considerably less than would have
been expected.  In part the problem was the flat trajectory of the heavy naval
ordinance, especially battleship 16-inch guns.  These were meant to get maximum
range, and the biggest ones required a correction for curvature of the earth
when aiming, but on the sea where they were designed to fight there were no
intervening hills or mountains.  At Iwo and other places it was noted that the
big naval guns had great difficulty hitting caves or positions sited on reverse
slopes-- in fact it was practically impossible for them to do so.  It was the
same principle which allowed Japanese guns and howitzers (especially the
latter) concealed behind hills in Bataan to win an artillery duel with the
heavy naval guns (10- and 12-inch) emplaced on the heavily fortified island of
Corregidor in April-May '42. Thus the heavy firepower of the battleships
attempting to operate in a land-support role they were not originally designed
for had some limitations.  These big ships with their big guns could
nonetheless be devastating when used for directed fire against targets in the
open, and thus were particularly effective against Japanese counterattacks.
        The fact that Allied battleships came to be increasingly used for
invasion fire support does not mean that they completely relinquished their
intended role in fighting the enemy battle line.  There were still a few
notable confrontations between battleships during the Pacific war.  The most
memorable was the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in November 1942.  A
Japanese force headed by the battleship KIRISHIMA ran into an American covering
force including the WASHINGTON and the SOUTH DAKOTA.  An incredible slugging
match of big ships toe-to-toe in narrow waters ensued, in which both the
offensive capabilities and incredible durability of the more modern US
battleships was amply demonstrated.  An untimely electrical
problem left the SOUTH DAKOTA dead in the water at the very start of the fight.
This ship attracted most of the Japanese attention.  The KIRISHIMA and its
attendant vessels plastered the American battlewagon with 42 large-calibre
shells, including a number of 14-inch, but did not sink the US ship.  The
preoccupation of the Japanese with the SOUTH DAKOTA allowed the WASHINGTON to
smother its adversary with accurate radar-directed gunfire (this being a night
action-- the American superiority in naval radar is something I've referred to
before-- none of the Japanese ships in this engagement had radar).  The
KIRISHIMA was hit by nine 16-inch and forty 5-inch shells from the WASHINGTON
in the space of only seven minutes, and was sunk.
        The one other classic battleship action of note in the war also ended
badly for the Japanese, when the FUSO and YAMASHIRO tried to force their way
through the Surigao Strait during the naval battle of Leyte Gulf.  In another
night action, both were sunk, the FUSO by two torpedoes from US destroyers, the
YAMASHIRO when the six American battleships of Jesse Ohlendorf's squadron
"crossed the T" and blasted the Japanese ship into junk with their combined
firepower.  The victory was all that much sweeter for the Americans in that
five of Ohlendorf's six battleships were refurbished Pearl Harbor victims.
        The Japanese, as the war developed, were left in just the opposite
position as the Americans.  The loss of their carriers at Midway, and the
atrocious wearing away of their trained aircrews culminating in the "Great
Marianas Turkey Shoot," combined to make them increasingly reliant on their
battleships in planning for the "decisive battle" as the war went on.  Leyte
Gulf was their great attempt to allow their battle line to close with the
Americans through a complicated series of movements, but it failed in the face
of US air power.  The MUSASHI was sunk (albeit after absorbing tremendous
punishment, 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs, before going down).  The Japanese were
never able to close with the enemy in a meaningful way, and during the battle
the NAGATO lost a turret to air attacks, and the YAMATO was struck by two
bombs.  Japanese attrition to their battleship arm had been proceeding
throughout the war, and unlike the Americans (who brought eight new
battleships into service after 1941) they built no more battleships, except for
getting the MUSASHI operational.  The HIEI had been lost in the same week as
the KIRISHIMA, severely damaged by US cruisers in another nocturnal slugfest of
big ships known as the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, and finished off by
American torpedo planes the next day.  The powerful MUTSU was lost to an
explosion, presumed accidental, in June 1943.  The KONGO was sunk by the
American sub SEALION in November 1944.
        As the war progressed, the Japanese needed carriers more than
battleships, and they tried to convert some of their battleships to this task.
The HYUGA and ISE were made into hybrid seaplane carriers, their rear 14-inch
gun turrets removed and replaced by a short flight deck.  In this guise they
could carry up to 23 seaplanes each, but the limitations of both the ships and
the aircraft they employed rendered this stop-gap of little value.  The
Japanese also had, at the start of the war, a third YAMATO-class battleship
already under construction.  This ship, the SHINANO, was instead to be completed
as a super-carrier.  The vessel was however never completely finished.  While
being transferred between ports in Japan it was sunk by the American submarine
ARCHERFISH in November 1944, at least partly due to the overconfidence of the
ship's captain, who, mindful of the amount of damage the MUSASHI had absorbed,
kept sailing onward after the torpedo hits.  But the SHINANO was not as well
protected as its sister ship, its watertight doors and bulkheads had not all
been installed, and its skeleton crew was not as adept at damage-control as the
sailors had been on the pride of Combined Fleet.
        The last great Japanese battleship to be sunk was the YAMATO, making a
vain and suicidal sortie to attempt to aid the defense of Okinawa in April
1945.  It was sunk by swarms of American aircraft without getting anywhere near
the island or the US invasion fleet, although again it took repeated hits to
put the big ship under water.  Of the 3,332 men aboard the YAMATO, only 269
survived.  Admirals Ito and Ariga went down with the ship.  What was left of
the Japanese battle fleet, virtually out of fuel, was crippled in its home
ports by American air raids.  The HARUNA, HYUGA, and ISE at Kure and the NAGATO
at Yokosuka were all struck during July 1945, and none was fully repaired
before the war ended.
        The job of gunnery support for the land forces was not free of its
perils for the American battleships either, particularly after the onset of the
kamikaze suicide air offensive.  Off Okinawa the US battlewagons were regular
targets.  Already during March 1945 the NEVADA, participating in a preliminary
operation, was hit by a suicide plane.  The NEVADA was struck again, this time
by Japanese shore batteries (which hit it with five shells of 6-inch or larger
calibre) on Okinawa in early April.  I've already recounted in my last post how
the WEST VIRGINIA was hit by an Okha rocket-powered suicide plane on April 1st,
the day of the Okinawa landings.   Also in April off Okinawa, a kamikaze struck
the TENNESSEE, the MARYLAND was hit by a suicide plane on one occasion and a
bomb from a conventional air attack on another, and kamikaze or conventional
attacks also scored hits on the NEW YORK and the MISSOURI (the "Mighty Mo,"
later famed as the ship on whose deck the Japanese surrender was signed in
Tokyo bay, was also hit on two occasions-- once by a kamikaze plane that did
little more than burn some paint off the ship's armored side).  The NEW MEXICO
was hit on May 12th as the suicide offensive continued.  The big ships
performed a variety of jobs during the war, but they were seldom out of harm's
way.
        I should also mention the contributions of other Allied battleships in
the Pacific, even thought the US fleets bore the brunt.  At Okinawa, the
American forces were joined by a British fleet under Admiral Fraser, which
included two of the KING GEORGE V-class battleships and five carriers (with a
total of 250 planes).  Even the French eventually got involved.  After France
rejoined the Allies, the battleship RICHELIEU (39,000 tons; eight 15-inch guns
in two quadruple turrets forward of the bridge; 30 knots; 13 inches of armor in
the main belt) was sent to the Pacific in 1945. It participated in a
bombardment of Sabang in April '45, and participated in British operations
against Rangoon in May.  In both these operations the RICHELIEU was joined by
the old British battleship QUEEN ELIZABETH, which also mounted eight 15-inch
guns.  While I'm discussing these British operations, I'd like to note for the
record that the last large-scale amphibious landing of the war was the capture
of Balikpapan by the Australians in July 1945.

        End notes:

        I referred to the lack of a US fighter presence at Pearl Harbor (in
spite of the detection of the Japanese strike force by American radar-- as most
on the list know, the contact was considered to be a flight of B-17's which
were due to fly in that morning).  In fact, six American fighter pilots did get
airborne and engage the Japanese that day.  George Welch and Ken Taylor were
the most successful.  These Army pilots drove to a little-used secondary
airfield and got two P-40's up.  They had no lack of targets, and Welch claimed
four Japanese planes while Taylor shot down three (most of these coming when
they got in among a formation of dive bombers from the second wave).  Welch
wound up the war as an ace with 16 victories.  American pilots claimed a total
of 11 Japanese planes on the day (the Japanese lost 29 aircraft in the Pearl
Harbor operation).  Another US Army pilot who got airborne was Verl Jett-- only
to discover that in his haste he had taken off in a fighter with unloaded guns.
Jett later got to compensate for his frustration somewhat flying a P-39 over
New Guinea, where he gained seven victories in 1942.  Charles MacDonald,
mentioned earlier as the number five US ace in the Pacific (with 27 "kills" in
a P-38-- for a time he commanded the "Satan's Angels" group on New Guinea to
which number two ace Thomas MacGuire also belonged), on his own initiative
organized a flying fighter patrol over Pearl after the raid, in case there was
a further follow-up.  This gained MacDonald more action than he hoped for, as
he was almost shot down by nervous American antiaircraft gunners when he tried
to land for more fuel.

        As a final thought, I want to say that the Japanese defensive tactics
of the late war period which I talked so much about recently were most
effective when the Japanese were able to dig in dominating some crucial
position (as at Biak or on Iwo, where their caves overlooked the airfields
which were the rationale for the landings in the first place).  This made sure
the campaign could not be concluded without digging them out.  It was not always
enough just to find good defensive positions and then dig in.  MacArthur in
particular learned to leave such positions more or less alone if they were not
absolutely vital, and just let the Japanese sit and starve.  This was
essentially what happened on Luzon-- Yamashita's forces sat in their forbidding
central mountains until the war ended.  MacArthur's plan for the invasion of
Japan proper would have done much the same thing-- secure the ports, plains,
and cities, and let the enemy retreat to mountain strongholds to rot if he so
chose.  On Okinawa my guess is that the repeated attacks against Ushijima's
strong bottleneck in the south of the island (after he had surrendered the
northern airfields almost without a fight) were largely due to the need to have
the island secured in order to free up the massive naval support offshore.

        Regards and thanks to any who have borne with me...

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:48:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Is Japan Sorry?

The following article appeared on Page A9 of the Metro edition of the NEW
YORK TIMES on Monday, March 6, 1995.  I have summarized this article and
any typos are mine.

MANY IN JAPAN OPPOSE APOLOGY TO ASIANS FOR WAR

The Japanese Parliment is considering whether Japan should apologize for
invading other Asian countries during WWII and murdering millions of
people.  Many members of the Pariliment are saying that the apology is not
realling needed and support for it is floundering.

Seisuke Okuno, 81, a former Cabinet minister and the leader of 161
lawmakers opposing the resolution said, "These countries had been colonized
and oppressed by whites, so our purpose was to free those nations and
stabilize them.  Incendiary bombs fell on Japan like rain, and atomic bombs
were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  And the Russian Army committed
mind-boggling atrocities against Japanese.  So we think that there were war
crimes more serious than any committed by Japan."

Opponents of the resolution have held a demonstration and obtained 4.5
million signatures on a petition against it.  Masao Horie, chairman of the
Japan Veterans Association, which vigorously opposes the apology resolution
said, "I think World War II was one in which Japan was cornered and forced
to fight for its self-defense."

The U.S. froze Japanese financial assets and imposed an oil embargo on
Japan in the summer of 1941 beacuse of the Japanese occupation of French
Indochina (now Vietnam).  Mr. Horie said that the sanctions meant that
"Japan had no choice but to stand up and fight; otherwise, Japan would have
perished."

Hirotake Yabe, executive director of the Japan Veterans Association said,
"we are trying to change views toward the war but there's still a strong
camp that sees Japan as a villan and believes that Japan conducted a war of
aggression.  They do this with the help of other countries such as China.
So this debate over the resolution is a critical point to determine which
view will prevail."

This bovine excrement is the same thing being offered by criminals in US
criminal courts today.  Wonder if some of our defense lawyers are coaching
the Japanese.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:48:24 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

        Looks like I blew it again on "Ching" Lee.  Don't know where I got that
notion from (that he was Chinese-American)-- its probably a good thing I've
finally come to a conclusion as it seems my quality control has been slipping a
bit in recent installments.  Anyway, accuracy is sure to be served since its
pretty tough to slip anything by this list.
        Thanks for the correction.  I thought it was a pretty tacky nickname if
he was of Chinese descent.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:36:07 -0600
From:    JEFF ROBERTS <JJR7904@TNTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: THREE DAY PARIS PASS

John:

        I'd like to add my name to the rather lenghty list of folks
        who have expressed their appreciation for your sharing your
        "Letters Home" with us.  I enjoy them very much.

        Your most recent post, however.  I'll explain below.


>           Dear Folks, February 23, 1945, Germany

much deleted ....

>
>           Now to our first evening in Paris. Really no more exciting
>           than an evening in any large city. We went by metro
>           (subway) from Palais Royal to Pigalle. Pigalle is one of the
>           less desirable sections of Paris. We went to the Club Moulin
>           Rouge, which is described by some as a clip-joint. And it is.
>
>           A glass of orange juice to use as a chaser cost 80 francs
>           ($1.60). A bottle of champagne 1000 francs ($20). Capt.
>           Miles and Lt. Parker, who is one of the engineer officers that
>           works with our infantry regiment, and I took in the floor
>           show and somehow acquired some very friendly girls.
>
>           No doubt you will wonder at this. Well, you need not, for
>           there is no woman shortage in Paris. One can walk the five
>           squares from the Hotel Louvre to the Opera and will be
>           stopped no less than fifteen times. In bars or clubs they
>           swarm about like flies. Their price is a package of cigarettes,
>           chocolate bars, or, if you insist, money.
>
>           About five came over to the table. We offered them drinks.
>           They accepted. In no time at all they had drunk all our
>           scotch. Even that was all right, but when they started to
>           quarrel among themselves as to which of them would take
>           which of us home with them and two girls came to blows,
>           we decided it was time to leave.
>
more deletions .....

>           Sunday evening we went to the Folies Bergere.
>
>           Monday morning I slept. In the afternoon, I ran into Marlene
>           Dietrich, and I mean ran into her. When going into the
>           officer's clothing store, she was coming out the door I was
>           going into. A violent collision, apologies, and she went on.
>           I didn't. I turned around to stare. They're not worth a
>           million dollars, but nearly!
>
>           In the evening, we made the rounds of the bars. The others
>           met girls to whom they took a fancy. I returned to the hotel
>           about midnight. (Damn it, why did I have to receive such
>           Puritanical rearing?)
>

        This whole passage is rather surprising, in that it is not very
        "Puritanical" at all!  As someone born in 1959, yet taught that
        the 1940's and 1950's were times of restraint in matters of human
        sexuality, this is a remarkably open letter!  (and sent to your
        parents none the less!!)

        Did the high command really not care to let it be known that its
        officers were going to "clip joints" and hanging out with women
        so nasty that they drank all the liquor and then fought over who
        was going to "do the nasty" with who?  I'm really a little sur-
        prised that this made it past the censors.

        I should point out that I'm not at all surprised that this kind
        of stuff went on, indeed it's rather common in all war situations,
        I'm simply surprised about the openness of it all.  I know that
        the Army came under some criticism for overly strict policies in
        World War *One* (and a decline in morale which they allegedly at
        times provoked), perhaps this openness is a result.  Then again,
        maybe I just need to reassess by impression of the 1940's ---
        maybe it really wasn't what Donna Reed & Beaver Cleaver's mom
        imply!  :)

        Comments welcome, and thanks again, John.

        Jeff Roberts
        JJR7904@tntech.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:52:12 -0600
From:    Terrance Lewis <tlewis@PRALINE.NO.NEOSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: WW I list info?

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Roger Coon wrote:

> Sorry to bother this list with this query but I am certain some of you
> would know the answer.  Would someone post directly to me the address
> of the WW I list?
> Thanks,
> Brad Coon
> coon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu

wwi-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

"T"

    ~*+**************************************************************+*~
    <     tlewis@praline.no.NeoSoft.com    LEWISHISTORY@delphi.com     >
    <     History Program       Southern University at New Orleans     >
    < author of "Dorothy L. Sayers' Wimsey & Interwar British Culture" >
    ~*+**************************************************************+*~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 22:05:07 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-MAR-1945

On 08-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the Canadian II Corps
attacks Xanten, which they take. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 1st
Division pushes towards the Rhine. The III Corps is engaged in reinforcing
the birdgehead at Remagen. In the 3rd Army sector, the VIII Corps advances
towards the Rhine.

Eastern Front - Fighting continues south of Stettin and Danzig as well as in
Silesia.

Philippines - The XIV Corps begins an eastward drive against the Shimbu
line. In I Corps area, elements of the 33rd Division take Mt. Magabang. In
the 8th Army sector, all organized resistance on Palawan comes to an end.

Iwo Jima - The VAC attacks toward the coast after artillery and naval
gunfire preparation. A few hundred yards are taken in some sectors.

The Homefront
-------------
U.S. Prisoners Back From Luzon - Two hundred seventy-five U.S. officers and
enlisted men have arrived by transport in San Francisco from the Cabanatuan
prison camp in the Philippines. Some hadn't seen America for eight years.

Ohio Floods - The Ohio River has flooded and paralyzed transportation and
scores of war plants in Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky and
Indiana. At least 10 deaths have been reported, with more than half a
billion dollars worth of damage. Hardest hit are Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and
Louisville, Ky.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 21:18:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, William Lippert wrote:

     I don't have the book with me, but Padfield in his biography of Doenitz
goes into detail about his trial and sentence.  As a general rule, the
Russians wanted them all to hang.  The British were a little more selective.
The Americans were probably the most forgiving.  In the case of Doenitz,
he was found guilty, I think, of waging aggressive war and war crimes.  The
first was because of his position as Fuhrer der U-Boat and then CINC-Kriegs-
marine.  The second was for his infamous "Laconia" order, I think it was
called, saying that (and this is not a direct quote but off the top of my
head) "the rescuing of surivivng crew members of enemy ships is incompatible
with the total war on the sea.  All efforts must be taken to see that the
crew of enemy ships do not hinder naval operations".  According to him,
he was just saying that U-boats shouldn't surface to rescue survivors for
longer than they had to - only to capture captains and other officers.
But in one incident, the U-boat Captain gunned down all the survivors
after rescuing the captain and the XO.
    Doenitz made the case that this was a misinterpretation of the order
and, no matter what anyone thought of it, the order had no applicability
because of the risks of surfacing for any length of time no matter what
the reason - gunning survivors or not.
    You can decide for yourself whether the "waging aggressive war" should
apply to Doenitz - that's a fairly subjective question.  As for the latter
order, it's hard to say precisely what he meant.  On the one hand, if
he really did give the order to gun survivors he should have been executed.
But if not, then maybe his term was a little harsh.

William,
     I doubt that Doenitz meant the order in the way that some of the
U-Boat commanders may have interpreted it.  It goes completely against
the Doenitz's character (or at least what I have read about Doenitz's
character (-: ).  As for not picking up survivors of sunken ships, I
don't doubt that Doenitz was being realistic and "waging an aggressive
war" which was also what most of Allies were doing as well.  I can't
remember many instances of American subs picking up survivors of sunken
Japanese ships in the Pacific.  In the end, the information which you
have so kindly provided seems to support my opinion that the Allies
railroaded Doenitz.

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 22:30:59 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era

Hi all!

I can't write as well as many on the list, but I agree with Ben Frank!  That
burns it, it was and always will be V-J Day!  I feel it insults all who fought
and died to defeat Japan, I also feel it insults all servicemen past and present
by down playing their accomplishments and contributions to our country!  Its bad
enough .....................<edited fot PC reasons.;-)>.....................
................................ Anyway, thats another story.

I agree with you, Ben and you have my support and if need be my signature!

Semper Fi!

Chip Mattocks

P.S. - Sounds like Slick Willy though. my .02 worth.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:56:24 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

Jodi, it really isn't necessary to dismiss heroism out of hand. :-)
Trust me. THE GREATEST RAID OF ALL is a first-class factual acount of
the St. Nazaire raid.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:09:49 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

Ben...
        The same clowardly PC claptrap is rearing its head in Britain.
PM John Major has issued directions that the British Armed Forces "must keep
a low profile" during the V-E Day 50th Anniversary Celebrations.

Such a decision baffles common-sense. What else, pray, is the entire *point*
of celebrating V-E Day than that of the fact of military victory? It seems
that politico Major (what an unsuitable name!) is obsessed with "not
upsetting the Germans".
The last time one his Prime Minister predecessors had the same priority,
World War Two erupted son afterwards.

God save veterans, today's young people, and the cause of historical
accuracy from the mincing timidity of politicians and acadame.

Sidney Allinson.

PS: It seems Canada is even more cautious.
There has been not so much as a hint of
even tentative plans for V-E/V-J Celebrations here.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:15:44 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

There is a sad irony that just before the 50th Anniversary of
V-E/V-J Day, the US dollar is plunging to an all-time low as
a result of financial machinations by Germany and Japan.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 22:45:20 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: More on Bong

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Jeff Dingbaum wrote:

> Mike Yaklich,
>
> Your posts on Bong and others losing wingmen bring up a question.
> What did you do if you lost your wingman?  Did you hookup with a
> twosome or did you look for someone else who had lost theirs also?
>
While we're on the subject of wingman, I will expose my ignorance and ask
a question.  As much as I read about these things, I'm still not clear
what exactly a wingman is for or how he performs his duties.  What does a
wingman do?

In air combat games like Red Baron, if I stick to my flight leader, I
usually end up getting shot down.  The only way it seems to survive is to
go hot dogging off by myself, which in real life would probably get me
shot down too.  What does a good wing man do?

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Mar 1995 to 7 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 28 messages totalling 1367 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt (2)
  2. VJ DAY
  3. INF: USN Chronology 03-08-95
  4. VJ Day (4)
  5. NOST: UK Sites
  6. P-40s
  7. Postmortem on Japan posts
  8. Is Japan Sorry?
  9. Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5
 10. Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt
 11. Request
 12. NOST:  UK Sites (2)
 13. WWII German, US & Soviet Veterans (2)
 14. Your Recent Post (was: Intro to List)
 15. endlossung/Germans or Nazis?
 16. VICTORY AT SEA
 17. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-MAR-1945
 18. INFO. German Professor Abbreviations
 19. more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F
 20. [INF] USAAF 9 MAR 45
 21. Tokyo Raid
 22. NEW MEMBER

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:37:39 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

        < ".... Doenitz got a raw deal..." >

!!!

o o
 "
 U

        The Last Nazi, German Fuhrer GrossAdmiral Karl Doenitz, spent the
last decades of his long life assiduously erasing his Nazi past and building
the myth he was just an honest sailor who somehow was thrust into being
Adolph Hitler's chosen successor.
        Rather than make my own comments, I offer this quotation from a
recent book written by a German:
                THE ODYSSEY OF A U-BOAT COMMANDER:RECOLLECTIONS OF ERICH TOPP
                        Praeger, New York, 1992.

        "... Grand Admiral Doenitz's apologists hold that he was an unpolitical
officer, but I am not convinced, and here my criticism sets in.
        His [Doenitz] unconditional commitment to Hitler, his decrees and
speeches that reflect National Socialist ideology and utterances of its chief pokesman spokesman -- all this induces me to reject this innocence assesment ...
        So much we know today from the talks he gave; so much we can deduce
from his presence where Himmler openly discussed his strategy of liquidation against Poles, Russians, and Jews, I conclude that Doenitz knew more than he
admitted".
                                        -- U-Boat Captain Erich Topp.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:50:18 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: VJ DAY

Mr. President.  No matter what you say or do, historically it was Victory
over Japan (VJ) day.  You can not change history.  The celebration of
this historic event is praising the deeds of the day, not calling for a
renewed conflict.  But when you slap the faces of the veterans that
sacrificed so much in the past by trying to change or ignore their
history, you hurt us all.

I am the sun of a WWII veteran, a Pearl Harbor survivor.  My generation,
which is your generation derives its heritage from our fathers.  Do not
dishonor them and try to change this heritage.  I am proud of where I
have come from and what I have gained from the sacrifices of my father's
generation.  They taught me to stand up and be counted.  What are you doing?

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-08-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/08 Thu. Inter-American Conference, in session at Mexico City
           since 21 February 1945, ends.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Transport No. 143, by Army aircraft, Formosa area,
              23 d. 35'N., 121 d. 35'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:32:29 +0100
From:    Robert Martensson <Robert.Martensson@NEXUS.SE>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

>There is a sad irony that just before the 50th Anniversary of
>V-E/V-J Day, the US dollar is plunging to an all-time low as
>a result of financial machinations by Germany and Japan.
>
Could people please stick to the subject WW2 and not drag current economical
and political affairs into the fray. There is sure enough postings in this
list as it is (my work is suffering :-)).

In all friendliness
        Robert Maartensson
        robert@nexus.se

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:31:38 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: NOST: UK Sites

Chris -

Ref your question regarding WWII related sites in and near London. . .

Four came to mind.  First, the Imperial War Museum.  Allow plenty of time.
It's huge.  To call it interesting would be a vast understatement.  Second,
the RAF Museum in Hendon (outskirts of London).  Third, Churchill's bunker
(in downtown London).  Was opened to the public about 3 years back.
Fourth, RAF Duxford, also part of the Imperial War Museum (but located in
Duxford) -- lots of restored airplanes and interesting exhibits.  It's
located on the site of a WWII airfield.  If you're lucky (and I was when
I visited), there will be some flying activity involving WWII vintage
aircraft.

One of the RAF NCOs in my unit is going to see if he can dig up any more
info that might be of help to you.  Let me know if you have any further
questions. Enjoy your trip!

                                Doug

Doug Donnell
Ruppertsweiler, Germany
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 07:11:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: P-40s

 >> the skies.  The Kittyhawk, for those who don't know, was essentially a
 >> souped-up P-40 with a Spitfire (Rolls-Royce) engine installed, boosting
 >> the speed by 15-20 mph over current P-40 versions.  This was also the
 >> plane flown by Australia's top ace Clive Caldwell for most of his
 >> career in North Africa (he later switched to a Spitfire).


Mike,

I prepared this post months ago when the question came up of what were
the names of P-40s.  Hope this helps.

Jack McKillop


Someone asked last week if the popular name of the Curtiss P-40 was
Kittyhawk, Tomahawk and/or Warhawk?  In checking my sources, I found the
following statement on page 474 of CURTISS AIRCRAFT 1907-1947 by Peter M.
Bowers:

  "Britain operated its direct-purchase and Lend-Lease P-40 variants under
the names of Tomahawk and Kittyhawk.  It did not use the name Warhawk
applied by Curtiss to variants powered with the Merlin engine."

Additional research of this book and others revealed the following facts:

1. Only two models of the P-40 were equipped with the V-1650-1 engine, i.e.,
the Packard-built Rolls Royce Merlin 28 liquid-cooled inline engine.  These
P-40 Warhawks were:

   XP-40F-CU (Model 87-B3): One P-40D re-engined with the V-1650-1 engine
   YP-40F-CU: One P-40F used for engine cooling tests
   P-40F-CU: 1,311 production aircraft of the XP-40F-CU in blocks 1 through
     20
   P-40L-CU (Model 87-B3): Lightweight version of the P-40F; 700 built with
     many being converted to P-40Rs.

The P-40F was easily recognizable because it eliminated the carburetor air
intake on the upper nose.

2. The remaining P-40s had the Allison V-1710 liquid-cooled inline engine
also used on the P-38, P-39 and early Mustangs (the A-36A, P-51 and P-51A).
These no-name aircraft were:

   XP-40-CU (Model 75P): One P-36A re-engined with the V-1710-19 engine.
   P-40-CU (Model 81): 199 production XP-40s
   P-40A: One modified P-40
   P-40B (Model H81-B): 131 improved P-40s
   P-40C (Model H81-B): 193 improved P-40Bs
   P-40D (Model H87-A2): 23 improved P-40s with many changes
   P-40E (Model 87-B2): 820 improved P-40Ds
   TP-40E: Two P-40Es with two-seat cockpit
   XP-40G (Model 81-AG): One P-40 with Tomahawk IIA wings
   P-40G: 43 P-40s refitted with Tomahawk IIA wings (16 to USSR)
   P-40H: Designation not used
   P-40J: Project cancelled May 42
   XP-40K: One modified P-40K
   P-40K: 1300 improved P-40Es
   TP-40K: One P-40K to two-seat trainer
   P-40M: 600 improved P-40K-20-CUs
   P-40N (Models 87V and 87W): 5,210 improved P-40Ms
   TP-40N: 30 P-40Ns converted to two-seat trainers
   P-40P: Project cancelled; built as P-40Ns
   XP-40Q (Model 87X): Three modified P-40Ks
   P-40R: 300 P-40Fs and Ls re-engined with Allison V-1710 engine

Note that Curtiss applied two model numbers to the P-40s, Model 81 to the
P-40 through P-40C and Model 87 to the P-40D through P-40R.  I checked three
references in preparing this and found contradictory information about the
Curtiss model numbers however, since the Bowers book deals exclusively with
Curtiss aircraft, I ASSUMED that his book was correct.

3. The Brits identified their Model 81s as Tomahawks and their Model 87s as
Kittyhawks.  The other Commonwealth air forces, i.e., Australian, Canadian,
New Zealand and South African Air Forces, used the Brit designation.  The
Soviet Union, Turkey, Egypt and the Free French also received Brit aircraft
but I do not know what they called them.  The Brit designations were:

   Tomahawk Mk I (Model H81-A): 140 acft equivalent to P-40; 3 to RCAF.
   Tomahawk Mk II: Improved Tomahawks delivered in Oct and Nov 40
   Tomahawk Mk IIA (Model H81-A2): 110 acft equivalent to P-40B; 23 to USSR
     and 1 to RCAF
   Tomahawk Mk IIB (Model H81-A2 and -A3): 930 in four lots; generally
     equivalent to P-40C.  Used by RAF and SAAF in North Africa.  100 H81-A3s
     to China for use by AVG; 23 to USSR; and some to Turkey and Egypt.
   Kittyhawk Mk I (Model A87-A2): 560 equivalent to P-40D.  72 to RCAF and
     17 to Turkey.
   Kittyhawk Mk IA (Model H87-A3 and -A4): 1500 equivalent to P-40E.  Many
     to RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF.
   Kittyhawk Mk II (Model H87-B3): Brit records show 330 P-40Fs and P-40Ls
     as Mk IIs; later records list first 230 as Mk IIs.  81 to USAAF; 7 to
     Free French; one to RNZAF.
   Kittyhawk Mk III: Of 616 Mk IIIs, first 192 were P-40Ks, the next 160
     were P-40Ls and final 264 were P-40Ms.  Last 170 to USSR; 210 to RAAF;
     15 to RCAF; 58 to RNZAF.
   Kittyhawk Mk IV (Models H87V and H87W): 586 P-40Ns with 130 going to
     USSR.  Many to RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF.

Accordingly, unless I can confirm the model, I will no longer designate the
P-40 as a Warhawk.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:19:18 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Postmortem on Japan posts

        What started out a month ago as transcribing a short bit of Toland's
"Rising Sun" in response to a question to the list from John Ausland somehow
took on a life of its own, and became a sweeping if somewhat disjointed
panorama of the war in the Pacific.  Looking back on all I've regurgitated to
the list on this subject, I wanted to thank anyone who hung in there with me
and read all or part of my many (largely unsolicited) posts on this topic.  For
those who felt I was just cluttering up the e-mail ether with this drivel, my
apologies, but rest assured that it will probably be some time before I recover
enough to launch into so monstrous a project again.  I will try to be better at
chopping things into more digestible fragments if I feel tempted to spew out
something similar in the future.
        Four things I wish I had said, or didn't say:

        1. In proof-reading some paper copies of previous posts after the
fact, it strikes me that in my discussion of "gekokujo" I didn't make it clear
enough that the system by which the Army came to have the power to bring down
governments was a direct result of changes instituted immediately after the
2/26 Incident of 1936.  That is, the service regulations were changed to state
that the Army (War) and Navy Ministers had to be active officers of the service
in question.  This was a direct response to the violent dissent within the
military.  I mentioned the new system and how it worked, but perhaps didn't
make the connection specifically enough.
        2. I also wish I had mentioned, in regards to potential invasion of
Japan, that the option of blockade was already in place, whether formally
declared or no.  Looking through some things I saved from other peoples' posts
to the list, I was struck by the discussion on the B-29 air mining campaign of
the Japanese home waters that ran here a couple months back.  I see that in the
spring and summer of 1945 alone over 200 Japanese ships were sunk by mines
dropped by B-29's-- not to mention mines deployed by submarines, etc, or the
toll subs were taking in torpedo attacks, or the destruction of shipping by air
raids on harbors, etc.  Add to this a bad harvest in 1945 in Japan, and the
more I think about it, the more I believe that, considerations of motivation
aside, ending the war in August 1945 probably spared the Japanese people an
even greater and more prolonged martyrdom.
        3. I mentioned the name of Field Marshal Hisaichi Terauchi a few times
without saying much about this officer, and that strikes me as an omission.
Terauchi, after the initial successes of the southern offensive which was
primarily under his control, was associated with more ill than good in the
Japanese war effort.  He criticized both Homma in the Phillipines and Imamura
in Indonesia for being too easy on the local populations.  He was in charge of
building the Japanese Burma railroad and road, where roughly a third of the
50,000 prisoners of war used essentially as slave labor died.  And he was the
man who constantly pressured Yamashita to defend Leyte, and send reinforcements
there, when Yamashita was trying to husband his resources for the fight on
Luzon.  Terauchi suffered a severe stroke at the end of the war, just before the
signing of the Japanese surrender.
        4.  I wanted to say something on the topic of factual error.  This
comes up because in the last week I've caught myself, or been caught by others
on the list, in three of these, and frankly, I find that a little embarrassing.
In fact, a lot embarrassing.  The one I particularly wish I could have back was
my passing reference to Admiral Willis "Ching" Lee as being of Chinese-American
descent.  I have no idea why that pseudo-fact stuck in my mind, and since I
don't have time to go look it up (none of my handy sources make reference to
it) I'll take Jim O'Neil's word for it he wasn't.  At any rate, since much of
this has been downloaded to the terminal in more or less stream of
consciousness fashion, I've done a lot of my own back-checking of facts and
figures that I've thrown out.  Most of the time the things that I wasn't 100%
sure about turned out to have been right after further checking.  A few times
they weren't, and I've posted corrections to the list.  The ones that really
bother me are the items like the "Ching" Lee reference and referring to the
Churchill-Roosevelt agreement on resources as 90-10% instead of 70-30-- i.e.,
ones where I've not only been wrong, but DIDN'T catch myself or question it.
Those are the ones that make me feel like I'm slipping.  Nonetheless, I often
use this list as a resource (and it was definitely one of my sources for
portions of these posts), so I don't mind having you all proofread me either.
Much as it bothers me to be wrong, I'd rather be told I'm wrong and learn
something than continue making the same mistake in the future.  Thanks again to
everyone who expressed positive comments or otherwise showed interest (and
thanks as well to those who kept me honest on the factual content).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:21:02 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is Japan Sorry?

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:48:00 EST,
mc killop  <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM> wrote:

>The following article appeared on Page A9 of the Metro edition of the NEW
>YORK TIMES on Monday, March 6, 1995.  I have summarized this article and
>any typos are mine.
>
>MANY IN JAPAN OPPOSE APOLOGY TO ASIANS FOR WAR
>
>The Japanese Parliment is considering whether Japan should apologize for
>invading other Asian countries during WWII and murdering millions of
>people.  Many members of the Pariliment are saying that the apology is not
>realling needed and support for it is floundering.
>
SNIP SNIP SNIP
  Jack,
    It looks like they're trying to re-write history again!!!

/====================================================================\
|    Michael A. Oaks                                                 |
|    Systems Analyst                  Music: A means to mark times   |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu              stepping stones through |
|    Kennesaw, Georgia 30144                 your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404)423-6049  Fax (404)423-6541          ~ ~ ~ ~      MAO |
|    VWAR-L #146 - - (Sgt. USAF = / AFCS / AFSS / AFDC)              |
|    Break, Break...Kadena, Kadena, Clark, Clark, Request you echo...|
|    (Some things you never forget...even after 25 years...)         |
\====================================================================/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:15:40 -0500
From:    James Ray Watkins <dawgonpete@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

>Ray,
>
>When I read Ben Frank's post the first thing I did was mail in to the
>President, but I do see your point on this.  The memories of war are
>nasty, but they should be otherwise we would think that war was a good
>things (unintentionalized bastardization of quote), but the Japanese gov.
>is getting really weird ideas on what happened in WWII, the last time
>a nation this big a revision of history was in Germany circa 1930 when
>people actually believed that their army had not been defeated in 1920.
>When people start changing history, or revising it, the lessons that history
>taught are changed.

Wasn't one of the lessons of WWI that 'punishing' a country (Germany) led
only to more problems, not less? I say that because, while I think it is
interesting to speculate on what the Japanese 'think,' we are, after all,
Americans and I am even more interested in what 'we' have or have not
learned from history. Here, WWII. Reading in this list often makes me wonder
if the futility of agression is one of things that is being 'revised' out of
our historical memory. Seems all too often that those who want the war
remembered are not willing to do the work to actually come up with a way to
do this that doesn't just seem to want to 'punish' the Japanese. Into that
vacumm rush the PR people whose job it is to keep their bosses in office. PC
is, after all, just a washed out version of current academic thinking,
history become sound bites. I think this is exactly relevant to this list
because here there are people who could keep an eye on all the factual
details such a project would have to take into account.

  Many Japanese are actually beginning to think that
>they were 'freeing' the rest of East Asia (but don't ask the other
>East Asians that question), which is wrong.  On the other hand, what
>if Japan wants to tie her economy in to this?  We can play hardball too,
>with the rest of east asia with us against Japan, and if we 'allow'
>Iran to cut off the gulf to Japanese shipping, well...  My point is
>I don't think the Japanese government would tie this in to the economy,
>but they want to see how far they can push us to 'revise' our history,
>and from their point of view everything they have done so far, from
>the Abomb-stamp, to the Enola Gay, to the VJday they have won every,
>battle, so why not continue pushing?

This will get me in trouble for sure, but I think that all history, official
or not, is written out of just these kinds of struggles. We- either
historians or not, Japanese or not, governments or not- all have our agendas
that we- from a position of power or not- work out in a complicated series
of negotiations. Even if we imagine some 'pure' intellectual work in which
we arrive at consensus and 'truth' there is still the messy process of
getting that 'truth' into the schools and so on. That 'dirty' and
'political' process includes this list, and it includes what you or I might
consider some pretty wako ideas. It all goes into the mix. In this sense-
and this sense specifically- the Japanese are only doing what we all do:
pushing their own agendas as far as they can. I am still interested in
knowing how far we should push back, and to what end.

Do we, say, keep VJ day as it is, but try to get the Japanese to understand?
We don't, for example, call the Fourth of July, Victory over England. In
this light I like the idea of an War's end celebration, done with the
Japanese and the Germans. Surely the one thing we can all try to agree on is
that the 'end' of the war is worth remembering. And given that we are trying
to work out problems (not impose our ideas on the other party, never a good
tactic in a conversation) we have to start with the common ground. In any
case, I think I would rather push for that kind of cooperation (given that
some elements in Japan and Germany and the US would not like that) rather
than for almost anything else which would encourage the idea that making
someone into 'the ultimate enemy' is a good idea. Thats not history, its a
politcal cartoon. If there are consequnces to be paid in this, then I want
the 'end' to be worth the investment.

In order to be able to honestly say that the vets did something worthwhile,
I think we have to stick to the principles that they died for. The stakes
for us are much lower, after all. One of those principles is that
'agression' is no way to conduct affairs between people. And the way not to
be agressive, here, is to use all this knowledge to do more than complain,
but to try to work out concrete solutions based on mutual respect. That's
always more difficult than just pushing people around. I'd love to see the
Vets groups in all three countries try to come up with a mutual solution:
that simple effort, to me, would embody best the principles that I like to
think made 'our' victory so important to remember. No matter what the PR
folk did or said, then, we would be drawing the line, not between
Japan/Germany/Italy and Europe/America, etc. but between those who chose
cooperation and understanding and those who chose violence and force. I want
my kids to be taught that preventing war is a job that has to be done
everywhere, not just 'out there' and I want them to be able to recognize
agression and resist it, in whatever guise it takes.

 Maybe they can even get us to
>change our flag from the flag that went up over so many criminally
>murdered Japanese to a more benign format? (facetious)
>
>John E. Kollar

Would you give up a 'symbol' for a larger cause?


Ray Watkins
A.I., Department of Rhetoric and Composition
English, University of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:58:48 -0500
From:    "Charles R. Hensel" <henchar@LYCO.LYCOMING.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Robert Martensson wrote:

> >There is a sad irony that just before the 50th Anniversary of
> >V-E/V-J Day, the US dollar is plunging to an all-time low as
> >a result of financial machinations by Germany and Japan.
> >
> Could people please stick to the subject WW2 and not drag current economical
> and political affairs into the fray. There is sure enough postings in this
> list as it is (my work is suffering :-)).
>
> In all friendliness
>         Robert Maartensson
>         robert@nexus.se
>
Although the current state of the US dollar has nothing to do directly
with WWII, it is important to kee4p current affairs in context with the
past.  In this day and age, discussion of that sort is the only way many
people are exposed to our history.  God knows the schools aren't helping.

--Chuck Hensel
  Lycoming College Class of '98

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:09:34 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactical afterthoughts on Japan part 5

        Emanuel, thanks for the elaboration on the admittedly confusing naming
and numbering of the Curtiss Hawk series aircraft.  I do believe, however, that
the aircraft I was referring to, both in North Africa and in New Guinea, were
of the later series with the Rolls-Royce Merlins.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:39:33 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

        Let's not forget that the Laconia Order resulted from an incident where
Axis submarines in an attempt to rescue survivors from a sunken Allied ship
were repeatedly attacked by Allied aircraft.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:38:51 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
> ... In the case of Doenitz,
> he was found guilty, I think, of waging aggressive war and war crimes.  The
> first was because of his position as Fuhrer der U-Boat and then CINC-Kriegs-
> marine.  The second was for his infamous "Laconia" order, I think it was
> called, saying that (and this is not a direct quote but off the top of my
> head) "the rescuing of surivivng crew members of enemy ships is incompatible
> with the total war on the sea.  All efforts must be taken to see that the
> crew of enemy ships do not hinder naval operations".

        Here is some info that I have on the incident that prompted the
"Laconia Order".

        On Spetember 12, 1942, the U-156 sunk the liner "Laconia" near
Ascension Island.  Kapitan-Leutnant Hartenstein surfaced his submarine
to begin rescuing the ship's passengers, mostly Italian prisoners-of-war
and the families of servicemen, and sent a radio message alerting the
Allies to the situation.  Two other U-boats, and an Italian submarine,
changed course to assist, and Admiral Doenitz requested help from Vichy
ships in Dakar.

        The U. S. 1st Composite Squadron on Ascension Island received
the message from the U-156 but claimed that the message was garbled and
that it was not informed that the Germans were involved it rescuing the
survivors.  The squadron was asked to provide an air-escort for the
British lifeboats.  Meanwhile, on September 16, an American B-24 Liberator
of the USAAF 343rd BS was flying from Ascension to Africa and spotted
the British boats with the surfaced U-156 displaying Red Cross flags.
The pilot, Lt. Harden, asked for instructions from the commander of
the 1st CS, Captain Richardson, and was ordered to attack.

        On September 17, following this attack on the U-156, which was
still engaged in rescue operations, Admiral Doenitz issued his "Laconia
Order," forbidding U-boats to attempt to save the passengers and crews
of their targets in order to protect the submarines.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
It's a Mark 6!  And we got her by the ass!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:41:14 -0500
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: Request

Can anyone tell me if the library at the US Army War College, Carlisle Barracks
PA can be accessed electronically?

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:05:37 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: NOST:  UK Sites

Chris Albee...
        AS well as the Imperial War Museum and RAF Duxford, there are
several other WW2-related places near London.

        Among them:

        Kent Battle Of Britain Museum
        Hawkinge, Nr Folkstone, Kent.

        Airborne Forces Museum
        (Parachute Regt & Glider Pilots Reg)
        Browning Barracks, Aldershot, Hants.

        Aldershot Military Museum
        ('Home Of The British Army")
        Aldershot, Hants.

        Royal Air Force Museum
        Hendon
        (on the "Tube"
        (on the Lundon Underground "Tube", Northern Line to Colindale Stn)

        D-Day Museum
        Portsmouth.

Lots of others, but I guess you'll already have a longer list than you need.

Bon Voyage -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:16:35 +0500
From:    Claude Lamazouere <clamazou@MONTREAL.SRC.CA>
Subject: WWII German, US & Soviet Veterans

Hi,

I'm presently working on VE-day.  Are you in touch with German or Soviet
veterans involved in the last battles in Europe (Berlin particulary)?
On the other hand do you know any US vet of the 69th infantry division who
were the first Amrican soldiers to meet the Soviets in Torgau on April, 26th
1945?

I want to make interviews with such persons for a radio documentary to be
broadcast next month on the Canadian national radio.

Any other suggestion is welcome..

Thank you for your help
Claude Lamazouere, Societe Radio-Canada
clamazou@montreal.src.ca
tel: (514) 597-5773
fax: (514) 597-5728

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:37:55 -0400
From:    John Baxter Jones <JONESJB@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Your Recent Post (was: Intro to List)

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, George Bauer wrote:

> I hope the misspellings in your recent post are typographical errors
> rather than actual misspellings

* JBJ responds-
Mr. Bauer:
     I rarely respond to such inane baiting--but just to give some
color to your (obviously) otherwise sad existence--I will try to
answer your concerns. I aplogize to the other list members in advance.
     #1- If you are going to be this nitpicking and petty-minded
(if I may be allowed to stray from the <your> straight-and-narrow
<mindedness>), please be specific as to my mistakes so that we all can
determine whether *your* spelling ability is as intact as your
megalomaniacal (sp?) ego;
     #2- Since I, like most others on this list, have a life which
includes other meaningful, important activities over and above this list,
I must confess to actually posting with "spelin' errs" from time to time
due to a lack of time to adequately correct same (realizing, of course,
that this is a cardinal sin that I, and other perpetrators <sp?> on this
list, will surely burn in Hell for);
     #3- Your concern for my academic soul, while appreciated, begs the
question: Is this a WWII (content oriented) list, or is it a SPELL-L
(spelling bee list)?


-Mr. George Bauer voices further concerns:
>--particularly since you claim to be a high school social science teacher.

* JBJ responds-
     What is this "claim" bullshit?  Do you suggest that I may have spent
half my life in the classroom pretending to be a teacher?  Wait until the
authorities at the local Board (finally) catch on to this!  There will
certainly be hell to pay! {Does a misspelled word <gasp!> mean that I
will have to give back my Master's Degree(s) and 20+ years of certification?}


-Mr. George Bauer voices even greater concerns:
> Or should I assume that teachers can't > spell?

* JBJ responds-
     Didn't your mother (or your college professors <"assuming", of
course, that you have a degree>) ever tell you what happens when you
*assume* something?  It makes an *ass* out of *u* and *me*! (I aplogize to
the other 99.44% of this list who have heard this eons ago.)


-Mr. George Bauer voices the ultimate concern:
> Oh yes, there was also a grammatical error.
> "Another misspelling?"

* JBJ responds-
     (gasp! to the 3rd power) May I respectfully suggest that Mr. Bauer
(or someone with *real* expertise) take a close look at his *own* post as
to grammatical errors (Re <being somewhat more specific than he>: "Or
should I assume that teachers can't spell?" *and* ""Another
misspelling?"" <Are these *really* independent sentences?>)
     Furthermore (said with chin jutting indignantly out), since when has
it been appropriate for one (even *one* as obvioulsy learned as Mr. <Dr.?>
Bauer) to put in quotes ("Another misspelling?") his own *obviously*
overblown observations?  Does this denote a higher level of expertise?
Does this denote how one feels about himself?  Do you have trouble
getting your giant ego through doorways?
     Mr. Bauer, I would be remiss if I did not touch upon one last point.
Was there something in particular in my introductory post that set you
off?  Is it because I am from the backwoods of North Carolina?  Could
it be the fact that I am a Vietnam vet who is proud of his service?
Could I be somewhat more facetious (sp?)?
     Since there are, obviously, many others on this list who are
educators..who are more concerned with content than spelling..who don't
have the time necessary to correct every little mistake in their
contributions to the combined knowledge of the list members, then, Sir, it
would seemingly follow that you would be kept busy in your obvious efforts
to police the writings herein.  Is this the case, Sir?!  If not, then,
Sir, why trash my well-meaning, sincere self-introduction to this
assembled membership--I came here to learn HISTORY!.  Was I not humble
enough? Did I not bow and scrape correctly?
     Jeez..I feel almost as stupid as you seem by my giving enough
credence to your self-aggrandizement (sp?) to even respond at all....


Lay chilly...get a real life,


John Baxter Jones
dau tieng '67--'68


* One last observation: It doesn't take a genius to be a mean-spirited
person.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:38:44 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Alex Bielakowski wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Kelvin Luther wrote:
>
>         Finally, the only country not to contribute to the holocaust was
> Bulgaria.  They refused to export their Jewish population to Poland, and
> were the only European country in the German domain to see a war time
> increase in their Jewish population.  It was possible for people to
> resist collaborating with the holocaust and your right, France deserves
> to be exposed for their unparalleled amount of collaboration.
>
> Kelvin,
>      While the Bulgarians may not have actively contributed to the
> Holocaust, the fact that they were an Axis power prevents them from
> claiming that they had no part in the Holocaust.  By giving military
> aid to the Germans they allowed the Germans to divert men and material
> to the Concentration Camps.  Someone else suggested that the Poles
> might have been both anti-German and anti-Semitic.  Using that analogy
> the Bulgarians might be described as pro-German and pro-Jewish.
>
> Alex Bielakowski
>
        I was not commenting on their contribution to the Axis cause but
answering the idea that the Poles were somehow being singled out for
their contribution to the holocaust.  As for giving military aid I would
be interested in knowing what kind of contribution Bulgaria made to the
war effort if anyone out there knows of a source please let me know.  I
feel safe in saying that their contribution to the war effort is a
roundabout way of assigning guilt for the holocaust (as mentioned above
France's contribution was large both militarily as well as direct
contributions to the holocaust).  Militarily many more German soldiers
were free to man camps and round up Jews because they didn't have to
occupy collaborationist Vichy France to the same extent they would occupy
any other conquered area.  I was also trying to point out that the simple
fact that many other people died in the camps besides Jews does not mean
the rest of the people from their group didn't contribute.  If thousands
of Catholics died it doesn't mean Catholics didn't contribute to the
roundups.  They were not interned because they were Catholics but because
they either had a Jewish relative, inlaw, or had tried to protect people
from the camps.  Much has also been written about how the Germans
considered just about everything and everyone they disagreed with to be
Jewish and degenerate.  Rest assured that anyone in the camps had somehow
been placed in this category.
        I also want to come to Bulgaria's defense a little.  They were
surrounded by hostile countries and made the decision to ally with the
obvious holder of power in their region against the Russians.  Because of
this they managed to maintain some semblance of autonomy and saved their
Jewish population (I am not implying that saving the Jews was their
motivation only the outcome of their retaining power).  The Danes managed
to save their Jewish population because they too had some autonomy after
the Germans invaded (I believe they then lost their control over their
gov't).  Finally the Finns also managed to deny the Germans the right to
export their Jewish population to the camps.  Again, a country forced to
ally itself to the Germans because of the Russians.  We can sit back and
say the Russians were our allies but this was only out of convenience to
them.  They cooperated with Hitler and later Japan in their aggressive
expansionist policies.  Would Hitler have invaded Poland when he did if
Russia hadn't colluded with him to divide it?  I for one resent Russia's
actions far more than Finland's or Bulgaria's regardless of their later
being thrown into the allied arena by a German invasion.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:01:40 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOST:  UK Sites

Chris,

Regarding your question about sites to visit in the London area, I would
encourage you to look for a copy of the following book:

        Bookman, John T. and Powers, Stephen T.  _The March to Victory:
                A Guide to World War II Battles and Battlefields
                from London to the Rhine_.  Revised ed.
                Niwat, CO:  University Press of Colorado, 1994.

It lists museums and historic sites, giving hours and stating whether
or not there is an admission fee (but not how much).

Enjoy the visit!

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:04:23 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: VICTORY AT SEA

The producer of the show, Henry Solomon, I believe his name is, was himself a
naval officer and worked with Samuel Eliot Morison in collecting naval history
and preparing Morison's 15-volume history of the Navy in WWII. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:00:34 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-MAR-1945

On 09-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the Canadian 4th Division
takes Veen. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 1st Division captures Bonne.
The 9th Division takes over control of the bridgehead at Remagen, while the
Germans continue to try to destroy the bridge by bombing. In the 3rd Army
sector, the VII Corps reaches the Rhine.

Philippines - The XIV Corps continues eastward attacks. In the 8th Army
sector, the naval bombardment of the Zamboanga area in Mindanao is begun in
preparation for attack.

Iwo Jima - The VAC continues efforts to clear the rest of Iwo. The 3rd
Marine Division breaks through to the coast in the corps center, splitting
the Japanese forces remaining on the island. The division also continues
the reduction of bypassed pockets in the rear. The 4th and 5th Marine
Divisions are unable to advance any appreciable amount on the flanks.

Japan - Powerfull fire raids on Japanese cities occur on the nights of the
9th and 10th. This marks a radical change in prvious tactics from precision
bombing against industrial targets to a concentration on wearing down the
Japanese will to resist in preparation for an invasion of Japan.

The Homefront
-------------
Troops To Be Redeployed - A War Department source reports that after V-E
day a "big load" of soldiers will return to the U.S. for redeployment to
the Orient, while others will be shipped there directly.

Mass Army Furlough - Wearing scores of Purple Hearts and other decorations,
5,380 veterans of battles in Italy arrive at Camp Kilmer, N.J. on rotation
furlough.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:52:10 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: INFO. German Professor Abbreviations

You wrote:

>
>People,
>Here is another one for you. I am in the midst of reading a book on the
V-1
>and V-2 projects. There keep popping up abbreviations in front of
scientists
>names that I have no idea what they mean. Help! What does Dipl. Ing.
and Dr.
>Ing. mean when used in front of a persons name?
>Thanks,
>Matthew Burchette
>
>
Dipl. Ing.  An engineer with a diploma.

Dr. Ing.  An engineer with a doctorate.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:59:15 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F

You wrote:

>
>Dennis E. Sparks <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU> writes:
>> After mailing off photographs of the aircraft to several people on
the
>> list, I still have 30 or 40 shots left over.  If anyone else is
interested,
>> drop me a note, and I'll be glad to send you a few.
>
>        Can anyone scan these photos in and be made available via ftp?
>--
>Joe Barone
>m1b@ssd.ray.com
>What's he want a yacht for?  There ain't no money in yachts...
>
>

Joe,

I'll be glad to scan them (as soon as I convince Dennis to send me a
set).  As for FTP, I'm pretty sure that BYRD would accept them, but I'd
have to check with them first.

I'm willing to give it a try.

--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:49:23 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

Chuck Hensel...

        "... God knows the schools aren't helping [study of history] ..."

Precisely.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 20:51:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 9 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s fly a negative shipping search.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 32 B-24s, escorted by 5
P-51s, bomb railroad yards at Sinsiang; 15 B-25s and 2 P-40s knock out 2
bridges at Hwaiyuanchen and E of Jungtse, and hit railroad targets and other
targets of opportunity at Yehhsien, Chowkiakow, Hsuchang, and E of Junan; 50+
fighter-bombers on armed reconnaissance attack railroad targets, river and
road traffic, bridges, gun positions, and troops at several locations,
particularly around Kweiyi, Hengyang, Nanking, and Sinyang.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 P-47s support elements
of the Chinese 50th Division near Mansam; 80+ fighter-bombers operating over
and behind enemy lines attack trucks, horses and carts, troops, and artillery
pieces. 568 air supply sorties are flown to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 875: 1,045 bombers and 443 fighters are dispatched to hit
marshalling yards and industrial plants in Germany; they claim 0-0-2
Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 bombers are lost:
  1. 423 B-17s are sent to hit the Ost (150) and Main (222) marshalling yards
and a casting plant (38) at Frankfurt visually and using Micro H, H2X radar
and smoke markers; 6 B-17s also fly a screening mission; 3 B-17s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 182 damaged; 7 airmen are WIA and 28 MIA. Escorting
are 94 of 101 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft in the air.
  2. 318 of 336 B-17s attack the marshalling yard and a large tank factory at
Kassel visually; 6 other B-17s fly a screening mission; 3 B-17s are lost, 2
damaged beyond repair and 188 damaged; 4 airmen are WIA and 28 MIA. The
escort is 97 of 99 P-51s; 1 is damaged beyond repair.
  3. 282 B-24s are sent to bomb marshalling yards at Munster (97), Rheine
(93) and Osnabruck (87) using Gee-H and H2X; 1 B-24 is lost and 52 damaged; 1
airman is WIA and 12 MIA. 47 of 51 P-51s escort.
  4. 4 B-17s fly a scouting mission.
  5. 141 P-47s and P-51s fly a freelance sweep in support of the bombers; 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair.
  6. 27 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  7. 15 P-51s escort 12 F-5s and 3 Spitfires on a photo reconnaissance mission
over Germany; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft in the air.
  Mission 876: 11 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands, France and Germany
during the night; and 2 of 9 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 600+ A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s hit 6 marshalling yards, storage and vehicle depots, ammunition-filling
plants, and 12 targets of opportunity as part of the interdiction campaign;
fighters fly armed reconnaissance, hit special targets, cover the Remagen
bridgehead and support the US 9th Infantry and 9th Armored Divisions
committed there, support the 4th Armored Division at the Mosel River bridge
at Treis, the XX Corps along the Mosel and Saar Rivers, and the XVI Corps
along the Rhine River near Wesel. The 125th Liaison Squadron, IX Fighter
Command [attached to the XXIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional)], moves from
Maastricht, the Netherlands to Monchen-Gladbach, Germany with L-5s; and the
153d Liaison Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command (attached to Twelfth Army
Group), moves from Spa, Belgium to Duren, Germany with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 372 B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escorts, bomb marshalling yards at Graz (2 yards), Klagenfurt, Sankt
Stefan, and Sankt Paul, Austria, and Ljubljana, Yugoslavia; river bridges at
Sankt Paul are also bombed; 27 P-38s bomb the Knittelfeld, Austria
marshalling yard and 13 others strafe the Graz, Austria-Maribor, Yugoslavia
railroad lines. Routine supply, reconnaissance, and escort missions continue.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit bridges at San
Ambrogio di Valpolicella, San Michele all'Adige, Bozzolo, Santa Margherita
d'Adige, Ora, and Montebello, the marshalling yard at Ora, and the bridge
approach at Ala; fighters and fighter-bombers attack bridges, railroads,
vehicles, trains, supply dumps, parked airplanes, buildings, and other
targets over wide areas, including Milan, Cittadella, Ala, Santa Margherita
d'Adige, La Spezia, Ghedi, Lecco, and the battle area in the N Apennines.
A-20s, on intruder missions during the night of 8/9 Mar, bomb river crossings
in the Po Valley at several locations, among them Ostiglia, San Benedetto Po,
and Borgoforte.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 13 Guam Island-based B-24s fly a daylight
strike on Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima Island while 5 more, on single-
bomber raids, hit the airfield during the night of 9/10 Mar. 24 Angaur
Island-based B-24s pound the town of Zamboanga on Mindanao Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s bomb
Zamboanga on Mindanao Island. B-25s, in cooperation with PT boats, attack
targets on Basilan Island, Philippine Islands. On Luzon Island, B-24s hit
the Ipo area, B-25s and fighter-bombers support ground forces E of Manila
Bay, hit Japanese-occupied areas at Mabiga, Lipa Bay, and Ternate, and bomb
and strafe targets of opportunity on Caballo Island in Manila Bay; B-25s,
A-20s, and fighter-bombers hit bridges at Bayombong, the town of Makati,
Cabugao, and Cauayan, San Fernando and the Solvec Cove areas on the NW coast,
the town of Cauayan, and Aparri Airfield. B-24s pound the dock area at Takao,
Formosa.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

09/0150Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 21:13:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Tokyo Raid

>From the US Air Force News Service
      Feature Package

020.  Tokyo Fire Raid anniversary
021.  Career soldier recalls bombing run on Japanese
022.  Challenges in Cuba
                              &    &    &
                              &    &    &
                              &    &    &
020.  Tokyo Fire Raid anniversary
by Daniel L. Haulman
     MAXWELL AFB, Alabama (AFNS Features) -- During the three and a
half months before March 1945, the largest and most advanced bombers
of World War II systematically raided Japan from the Marianas.
Approaching at high altitudes of 30,000 feet (9,144 m), the B-29
Superfortresses faced strong jet stream winds that blew them and
their bombs off course, and cloud cover that obscured their targets.
They rarely hit the relatively small Japanese factories, which were
scattered throughout the large cities.
     Aware that Japanese cities were constructed of highly flammable
materials, Major General Curtis E. LeMay, commander of the XXI Bomber
Command, conceived a radical solution:  low-level incendiary bombing at
night.  Attacking at night would minimize the threat of flak and
fighters, eliminate the need to attack at high altitude, and allow
LeMay to increase bomb loads by stripping the B-29s of most of their
guns.  Approaching the targets beneath the clouds and jet stream
would increase accuracy.  A single fire bombing raid might destroy
several industries at the same time.
     On the evening of March 9, 1945, LeMay launched more than 300
Superfortresses, each laden with six tons of fire bombs, against
Japan's largest city, Tokyo.  Approaching just after midnight at
altitudes between 5,000 and 9,000 feet (1,524 and 2,743 m), the first
bombers laid out a giant X pattern with napalm over a three-by-four-
mile (4.8 by 6.4 km) section of eastern Tokyo.  Other bombers dropped
on the pattern.  In three hours, almost 2,000 tons of incendiaries
rained over the Japanese capital.
     The Japanese were unprepared for the revolutionary tactics.
Antiaircraft artillery missed most of the bombers.  Flak brought down
only 14 Superfortresses and damaged another 42.  Japanese fighters
failed to destroyed a single B-29.  Japanese losses, on the other hand,
were astounding.
     Sixteen square miles (41.5 squadre km) of Tokyo, including more
than 18 percent of its commercial area, burned to the ground.  The
raid killed at least 83,000 of the 6 million people then in the city,
and destroyed more than 267,000 buildings, a quarter of the total.  A
million people lost their homes.  No other single air raid in the
history of the world killed more people or destroyed more property.
When he personally inspected the devastated area on March 18, Emperor
Hirohito was greatly moved.
     The great Tokyo fire raid of March 10 changed the course of the
war.  Destroying at least 22 industrial targets, it proved that the
Superfortresses could severely damage Japan's industrial base.
Secondly, the raid signaled a shift in American bombing strategy from
precision attacks on specific targets to mass destruction of urban
areas.  Culminating in the atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, the new policy sapped Japanese morale and decisively
influenced the emperor's decision to surrender.
(Haulman is assigned to the Air Force Historical Research Agency)
                      &     &     &
                      &     &     &
                      &     &     &
021.  Career soldier recalls bombing run on Japanese
by SSgt. Stephen Pierce
     TRAVIS AFB, California (AFNS Features) -- The old phrase, "the
third time's a charm," rings true with George Justice -- his military
career spans three separate enlistments from 1937 to 1973.
     His first stint in the military lasted three years as a vehicle
operator in the Army, but he could only stay away about month before
joining the Army Air Corps as an aircraft mechanic.  When World War II
was over, Justice decided he had enough of military life.  His
decision to stay away was changed by the escalation of events in
Korea. After being recalled to active duty, Justice decided to hang
around a while this time.
     The retired senior master sergeant considers himself one of the
luckiest men alive, having survived the combat theater during World War
II and the Vietnam Conflict.
     "Every day I would walk down the same path to the hard stand
(where the aircraft are parked).  One day I noticed a hand grenade
lying on the edge of the path, apparently for quite some time.  After
the bomb guys exploded it, I realized just one wrong step and that
could have been me," said Justice about one experience on the tiny
Pacific island of Saipan during World War II.
     Another unforgettable experience happened the night he first
arrived on Saipan in November 1944.  "We were told to dig a foxhole
next to our tent, but like a few others, I didn't the first night.
About midnight that night as Tokyo Rose promised, those Zeros came in
strafing the base.  As I was trying to find some kind of cover, I kept
thinking, 'God I'll dig my hole if they just let me live through
tonight,'" said Justice.
     Just as embedded into his memory of his time at Saipan were his
accomplishments and the successes of the aircraft he maintained.
     "My aircraft flew 29 straight missions without an abort.  That
means when it was scheduled, it went," he said. "Not all the airplanes
came back. Some with only one engine.  Fortunately, none of my aircraft
had any serious damage."
     Justice said the early days of the Army Air Corps had one thing
over the Air Force of today -- total unit cohesiveness. He prefers the
concept of a whole unit going as a team, not just one person from here
and there.
     "When the chips are down, I want to know who I can count on," he
said.
     During World War II, the Army Air Corps commanders counted on the
B-29 Superfortress crews of the 500th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy)
stationed on Saipan.  Justice was part of that unit, and the following
excerpts about the first fire raid on Tokyo (March 9, 1945) were
written by Arthur Miller and appeared in the unit's memory book, An
Unofficial Pictorial History of the 500th Bombardment Group.
     "It was a sober group of combat crews who walked slowly back to
their Quonsets after the briefing. 'Over Tokyo at 5,000 feet' -- it
was inconceivable, beyond comprehension. 'What would they think of
next?' mused more than one as he got his gear together and prepared to
jump to the flying line.
     Minds slowly reviewed the previous three months -- December,
January and February -- when the 73rd Wing was fighting the battle over
Japan alone, when enemy fighters were thick as flies in an uncovered
latrine, when flak was black and accurate, when crew after crew
heartbreakingly ditched hundreds of miles from home with little hope
of rescue.
     "Then it was time for the 500th and slowly the big 'Z' ships
jockeyed into position, lined up, and roared off, leaving behind a
strangely empty airfield and a quiet group of stay-at-homes.
     "To the uninitiated, it may be stated without equivocation that it
is a mighty long road from Saipan to Tokyo over a mighty wide
and deep ocean.  Cruising along, all alone except for occasional
glimpses of running lights from other planes, the crews felt lonely
and a million miles from nowhere. The flight plan called for each
plane to fly by way of Iwo Jima, for by this time the Marines had
the situation in hand on that little bit of Purgatory, and it furnished
an excellent checkpoint.
     "Landfall! The tip of the Chofu peninsula -- about 35 miles
(56 km) away -- was showing on the radar screen. ... Then a faint
glow appears, looking like the very beginning of sunrise, quickly
expanding into a bright orange reflection in the sky.  The
bombardier opens the doors and at the same time the plane plunges
headlong into a huge column of acrid, black smoke.  It is tossed
around like a leaf, the turbulence is worse than a West Texas
thunderstorm.  Suddenly they are out of the smoke and there below
lies a panorama out of Dante's Inferno, a huge, gushing, roaring fire
licking its irresistible way through the heart of proud Tokyo.
     "Result of this mission: 17.2 square miles of Tokyo up in
smoke, a reported 100,000 dead; 500th Group losses on mission,
none.
     "Mission complete." (Pierce is assigned to the 60th Airlift Wing
at Travis)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Force News Agency                   :  DSN: 945-6164
AFNEWS/IICP                             :  (210) 925-6164
203 Norton Street                       :  sysop@afnews.pa.af.mil
Kelly AFB, TX 78241-6105                :  131.13.24.1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Force News Agency                   :  DSN: 945-6164
AFNEWS/IICX                             :  sysop@afnews.pa.af.mil
Kelly AFB, TX 78241-5000                :  131.13.24.1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:56:05 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: WWII German, US & Soviet Veterans

On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Claude Lamazouere wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm presently working on VE-day.  Are you in touch with German or Soviet
> veterans involved in the last battles in Europe (Berlin particulary)?
> On the other hand do you know any US vet of the 69th infantry division who
> were the first Amrican soldiers to meet the Soviets in Torgau on April, 26th
> 1945?
>
> I want to make interviews with such persons for a radio documentary to be
> broadcast next month on the Canadian national radio.
>
> Any other suggestion is welcome..
>
I am in touch with two Luftwaffe vets, one was a vet of JV44, Wolfgang
spate, who finished out the war on the western front with Galland's
group.  I have some addresses of Luftwaffe reunion groups but I haven't
checked them all out.  If you need information contact me.





> Thank you for your help
> Claude Lamazouere, Societe Radio-Canada
> clamazou@montreal.src.ca
> tel: (514) 597-5773
> fax: (514) 597-5728
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Mar 1995 23:36:20 -0500
From:    "Paul C. Perkins, M.D." <PERK1518@AOL.COM>
Subject: NEW MEMBER

I've been lucky enough to write the manuscripts for two photo books about
 WW2 aircraft. The Lady - The Boeing B-17 and The Solder - Consolidated B-24
Libertaor are published by Howell Press. A third book, about the P-51 Mustang
is soon to go to press.

Truth be known - my biggest thrill is listening to the people who made the
history. I delight in listening to the remembrances of those folks who made
these planes fly... design engineers, production personel,  test pilots,
mechanics, combat pilots...

Don't hesitate. It isn't like you MUST say something profound or
earth-shattering about your experience(s). Descriptions of daily staion life
useful. The machines don't need to be the central focus of your
correspondence.

I am very careful to ensure that people's remembrances are correctly quoted.
 E-mail me at PERK1518@aol.com
- Paul C. Perkins, M.D. / 1518 State Rte. 343 / Yellow Springs, Ohio / 45387

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Mar 1995 to 8 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 8 Mar 1995 to 9 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 40 messages totalling 1711 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. VJ DAY "REMEMBERED"
  2. Intelligence on Tirpitz
  3. NOST: UK Sites
  4. THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt (2)
  5. Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...
  6. Johnson Automatic Rifle
  7. Britain and V-J Day (2)
  8. Media: Most combat-decorated soldier buried (2)
  9. Aggressive Warfare
 10. POSTMORTEM ON JAPAN PO
 11. NEW MEMBER
 12. Your Recent Post (was: Intro to List)
 13. Apologies to the emporer for Japan posts
 14. Native Americans in WW2
 15. MEDIA:RIP LTC Urban
 16. MEDIA:Tokyo Remembers
 17. Postmortem on Japan posts (2)
 18. MEDIA:Remagen Bridge
 19. MEDIA:Austria's Nazi Past
 20. more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F
 21. INFO: Marianas
 22. Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt
 23. More on Bong
 24. Japan bibliography (2)
 25. VJ Day (2)
 26. Japan biblio (2)
 27. Re2: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?
 28. KAMIKAZES AIRCRAFTS
 29. Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)
 30. INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-MAR-1945
 31. Generals
 32. New User Intro
 33. [INF] USAAF 10 MAR 45

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 00:51:55 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: VJ DAY "REMEMBERED"

Ron, I posted the item. It appeared on page A-29 of the Washington Post of 5
March. It was written by T.R. Reid, the Post's Tokyo correspondent. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 01:37:28 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Jodi, it really isn't necessary to dismiss heroism out of hand. :-)

Ack! Nor did I intend to, though in retrospect I can see how my post might
have been taken that way. It must have been too late and too many hours in
staring-at-the-screen mode.

Thanks. I will launch a full-scale search for the book.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 01:37:31 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NOST: UK Sites

> Fourth, RAF Duxford, also part of the Imperial War Museum (but located in
Duxford) -- lots of restored airplanes and interesting exhibits.  It's
located on the site of a WWII airfield.  If you're lucky (and I was when
I visited), there will be some flying activity involving WWII vintage
aircraft.

I can second this vote. It'd be a fairly long day trip from London, but they
have *fast* and relatively cheap trains over there, so it could be done in a
day, and I thought it was terrific. Duxford is near Cambridge, incidentally.
I was there in 1986, so I can't begin to offer realistic information about
1995 costs or hours, but it's a fascinating place.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 01:37:35 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

William Lippert wrote:

>The second was for his infamous "Laconia" order, I think it was
called, saying that (and this is not a direct quote but off the top of my
head) "the rescuing of surivivng crew members of enemy ships is incompatible
with the total war on the sea.  All efforts must be taken to see that the
crew of enemy ships do not hinder naval operations".  According to him,
he was just saying that U-boats shouldn't surface to rescue survivors for
longer than they had to - only to capture captains and other officers.

     According to Terraine's  *The U-Boat Wars: 1916-195*:

     "All attempts to rescue members of ships sunk, therefore also fishing
out swimmers and putting them into lifeboats, righting capsized lifeboats,
handing out provisions and water, have to cease. Rescue contradicts the most
fundamental demands of war for the annihilation of enemy ships and crews.
 ... Be hard. Think of the fact that the enemy in his bombing asttacks on
German towns has no regard for women and children."

     The irony, of course, is that this order was issued after the U-156 had
been repeatedly attacked by Allied aircraft while attempting to rescue
*Laconia* survivors. I like Terraine's ending analysis: "The *Laconia* story
is blurred at every edge; if there is any moral at all to be extracted from
it, it would seem to be only a repetition, once again, of Admiral Fisher's
perception in 1913 to the effect that submarine warfare 'is acknowledged to
be an altogether barbarous method ... (but) the essence of war is violence,
and moderation in war is imbecility.'"
     Doenitz, being a thoroughgoing Nazi in a political sense, is not what I
would want as a role model for my children, but he certainly had a duty to
try to protect his subordinates. Under the circumstances, I'm not sure there
was any option for him except to order his boats not to pick up survivors.
     I have always wanted someone to explain to my perhaps-too-literal brain
just why "aggressive war" is a war crime. What the heck is a "non-aggressive
war?" If all parties are "non-aggressive," there's no war, right? Despite my
slightly flippant tone, I'm serious about this question -- what were the
folks at Nuremburg really trying to accomplish by establishing this as a war
crime?

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 01:37:36 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...

Alex Bielakowski wrote:

> I can't
remember many instances of American subs picking up survivors of sunken
Japanese ships in the Pacific.

No, and there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley Morton,
didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would *not* have
been tried for war crimes. At the risk of sounding like an Axis apologist (whi
ch I am *not*) I think we are sometimes too quick to forget that war is
conducted by human beings, none of whom are perfect -- including us. I don't
know that I agree that Doenitz "got a raw deal," but I think there's a fair
amount of irony in the specific charges on which he got nailed.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 01:37:40 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

Sidney Allinson wrote:

> ...German Fuhrer GrossAdmiral Karl Doenitz spent the last decades of his
long life assiduously erasing his Nazi past...

     Well, yes, but he was hardly the only one, and some who deserved worse
served less prison time (or ended up living as comfortable middle-class
citizens here in the States, courtesy of Uncle Sam, which frankly makes me
madder than blazes). I don't know -- I have very mixed feelings about Doenitz.
 I don't think the mere fact that he was politically a Nazi (if he tried to
cover that up, he didn't do a very good job of it) automatically constitutes
a war crime. I don't care much for Nazis, then or now, but I think actions,
not political philosphies, are crimes. On the other hand, if he did know
things about the liquidations, then I might be inclined to revise my opinion
of him. But the quote from Topp's book doesn't cite any specifics.
     By the way, thanks for that citation -- I'll search for that one, too.
My husband recently picked up a copy of Cremer's *U-boat Commander* (retitled
from the original *U-333*), which has been out of print for a while, at a gun
show. Needless to say, the spouse has been getting a royal treatment for a
couple of weeks after making that find. He knows how to get chocolate-chip
cookies from scratch when he wants them!

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 01:29:54 -0500
From:    John Cropp <jcropp@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: Johnson Automatic Rifle

On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Jon Stevens wrote:
> What caliber was this rifle? 30.06?
> Was this rifle found to be a "dud" like the Reising smg in combat conditions?

The Johnson Rifle fired 30.06.  It was not a "dud", but it was not as
rugged as the M1 and jammed more often.  Still it was capable of accurate
fire of a heavy rifle caliber.  I've fired the Johnson, and would not feel
naked in a social situation.  Its' trigger was as good as the M1, and its
loading procedure was almost as good.  Not a bad piece, but it was in 2nd
place to the Garand.
                         Hope this helps,
                         John Cropp

John L. Cropp                      *   "Quomodo manibus mortalis
jcropp@freenet.columbus.oh.us      *    talia magna opera
11041 Fancher Rd.                  *    coquinaria?"
Westerville, OH 43082              *

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:21:56 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <nechama@BOREALIS.COM>
Subject: Britain and V-J Day

The Times yesterday published a couple of articles on V-J Day.  I thought
this one might be of interest to the list.

(Please excuse the typos, it is early here.)

The Times, March 8, 1995

"VJ veterans appalled by US appeasement"

        British verterans of the Far East campaign expressed disgust
yesterday at President Clinton's decision to ban the term VJ-Day -- Victory
over Japan -- from American commemorations marking the 50th anniversary of
the end of the Second World War.
        Dowing Street, however, said Britain had no plans to bow to
Japanese sensibilities and that the term VJ-Day, in common use for half a
century, would be applied to British events marking the anniversary in
August.  Air Vice-Marshall Sir Bernard Chacksfield, chairman of the Burma
Star Association, which represents 17,000 survivors of the war against
Japan, said that his organization had made strong representations to John
Major when the anniversary events were being planned.
        "This was a victory over Japan; there can be no flannelling about.
We do not feel like being mealy-mouthed in commemorating a victory that was
won at such cost in lives."  The American decision to bow to diplomatic
pressure and name the commemorations simply End of the War was disgusting,
he said.
        Harold Payne, president of the Far East Prisoners of War
Association, took an equally firm view.  "I don't care a sausage what other
countries do; we are British, and to us VJ is victory over Japan.  Why
should we change it out of consideration for the Japanese?  They did not
give much consideration to us when we were their prisoners of war."  There
was still a strong anti-Japanese feeling within his association's 68
branches.
        The Royal British Legion said yesterday that it had "no problem"
with the term VJ-Day.  The Japanese Embassy in London refused to be drawn
into the controversy, saying that the manner and naming of commemerations
was a matter for individual governments.  An Embassy spokesman denied that
Toyko had applied diplomatic pressure, but the fact remains that Australia
and New Zealand have opted for "Victory in the Pacific" as the title of
their events, and Canada has opted for "Canada Remembers".
        The date of Germany's surrender, May 8, 1945, is known as Victory
in - not over - Europe and the Japanese believe they have been singled out
in terms of semantics.


Maybe the British have something here :)

Nechama Cox
nechama@borealis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:29:58 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Media: Most combat-decorated soldier buried

Army pallbearers carried the casket of Lt. Col. Matt Urban during funeral
services at Arlington Nation Cemetary yesterday. Urban, 75, a World War
II veteran known as the most combat-decorated soldier in U.S. history,
died last week of complications from a colapsed lung. he was awarded 29
medals for bravery and received the Purple Heart 7 times.

God Speed,...

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:36:54 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Aggressive Warfare

Jodi,
   You bring up a good question and many Germans felt they were given a
"raw deal" not only because they were tried for aggressive warfare, but
also for the other crimes which were not illegal before their commitment.
In this country (the US) one cannot be tried of committing a crime before
it is a crime.  That's called ex post facto.
    But there is such a thing as "aggressive warfare" and the idea has run
through the centuries.  I suppose it was first seriously implemented in
modern history after WWI when the Germans were forced to admit that they
were the guilty party for causing it.
    I can first tell you what is considered non-aggressive warfare.

1. Defensive Warfare: the act of defending against an aggressive nation.
Kuwait would be an example, or Belgium in WWII
2. War to correct a gross immorality: Somalia, Haiti, and the protection of
the Kurds would fall under this category (though they were not necessarily
wars).
3. There may be others I don't remember

Anyway, aggressive warfare is rather subjective in its definition.  Sometimes
the protection of citizens abroad is considered aggressive, sometimes not.
As for Doenitz, I do not believe that he was guilty of waging agressive
war.  Maybe the Wermacht general staff, such as Keitel or Jodl, but not
Doenitz.  He had no real impact on the decision of the war or its waging
(aside from the subs) until he was appointed CINC in 1942(?)  If the
tribunal came to their decision on this basis, that he was CINC, I wonder
why they would think he was guilty of waging an aggressive war three years
after it had started.

Well, that's my thoughts.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:00:10 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: POSTMORTEM ON JAPAN PO

Well done, Mike. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:04:22 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: NEW MEMBER

I've seen the books and I knew John Wilson who was in the B-24 book--I'm
also in the WWII Airman's Preservation Society and we have all the gear
you could ever want to do pictures for additional books.  We did the
display at the 91st Bomb Group Reunion this summer and the vet's said it
was like walking back into the past.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:12:16 -0500
From:    James Ray Watkins <dawgonpete@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Your Recent Post (was: Intro to List)

>On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, George Bauer wrote:
>
>> I hope the misspellings in your recent post are typographical errors
>> rather than actual misspellings
>
>* JBJ responds-
>Mr. Bauer:
>     I rarely respond to such inane baiting--but just to give some
>color to your (obviously) otherwise sad existence--I will try to
>answer your concerns. I aplogize to the other list members in advance.


None needed, I think your right on the money. I got one of these ugly little
things too a few weeks back. The language police. And a class/caste thing,
too. I spent too much time for the last twenty-years trying to follow those
rules. G.B. Shaw once pointed out that fish could be spelled ghoti. Go figure.


Ray

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:23:46 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Apologies to the emporer for Japan posts

        I'm almost beginning to think I should have quit while I was ahead.  In
rereading my final appendix on the battleships, I caught yet another error.
When I said I was having a bad week, I wasn't kidding.  Hope I haven't
succeeded in damaging my credibility.  Anyway, for some reason best known to my
fugitive brain cells, I said the Japanese Navy D3A divebomber usually didn't
carry bombs heavier than 220 lbs.  In fact, its usual load was one 551-lb bomb
under the fuselage and a 66-lb bomb under each wing.
        That "Ching" Lee error still bothers me, especially since I was
familiar with the outlines of his wartime career (even if, obviously, I didn't
know as much as I thought I did about the man himself).  I even knew he was one
of the US Navy's top experts on gunnery radar, not to mention one of our top
battleship commanders (Lee was the US commander at the battleship encounter I
just described, the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal-- also in charge of the
famed Task Force 34 under Halsey at Leyte Gulf).  On a brighter note, I have
since found out why all mention of Admiral Tanaka vanishes after mid-1943.
After the sinking of the JINTSU in the action I described off Kolombangara, he
apparently complained too heartily that the attempts to keep the Solomons
reinforced and resupplied were too costly in terms of ships, and was relieved
of his command.
        All of the naval actions around Guadalcanal from the carrier battle off
the Santa Cruz islands in late October through the two naval battles in narrow
waters off the island were part of the same elaborate series of maneuvers by
the Japanese naval forces under Admiral Kondo to pass a large supply and
reinforcement convoy to the island.  This convoy consisted of 11 transports
escorted by 12 of Tanaka's destroyers, and carrying a total of 12,000 troops
(most of the veteran 38th Division and 3,000 marines) and 10,000 tons of
supplies.  American air attacks sank all but four of the transports en route,
and these last four, beached so that they could be unloaded, were virtually
destroyed by further bombing runs.  Less than 4,000 men and only five tons of
the vital supplies made it to the island, and it was this failure that
ended the Japanese attempts to retake Guadalcanal.  Since I referred to Col.
Hattori of the Japanese operations section, I should mention that it was he who
vetoed an earlier plan by Tsuji to regain air supremacy over Guadalcanal by
withdrawing significant air units from Manchuria.  Even at this stage Hattori
was too worried such a weakening of Manchurian defenses would invite a Russian
attack.
        I realize that in the course of all these posts one action I never
referred to was the Japanese landings on the Aleutian islands of Attu and
Kiska.  This was a subsidiary operation of the Midway battle, carried out
partly as a diversion, supported by two light carriers.  It was the one part of
the Japanese plan that worked perfectly, but it was only a secondary part of
the plan.  The Japanese subsequently fought a long delaying action on Attu
before being wiped out (here they really used bamboo spear tactics at the end--
the last charge by some 800 Japanese included a number of men with rifles who
charged with fixed bayonets because they were out of ammunition).  They managed
to withdraw undetected from Kiska.  The most notable action in the Aleutians
might have been the naval battle of Komodorski bay, where the American heavy
cruiser SALT LAKE CITY along with a light cruiser and some destroyers engaged
in a long-range daylight gunnery duel with the Japanese heavy cruisers NACHI
and MAYA, who were escorting two merchantmen with reinforcements.  Though the
SALT LAKE CITY was left dead in the water (after itself scoring several hits on
the NACHI) the Japanese admiral withdrew (he was relieved of his command for
this).
        Another remarkable Pacific naval action I wish I'd gotten into occurred
in the Indian Ocean in November 1942.  Two Japanese commerce raiders-- armed
merchant ships that utilized disguise to close with their victims-- attacked
the Dutch tanker ONDINA, escorted by the 733-ton Indian Navy minesweeper
BENGAL.  The Japanese ships, HOKOKO MARU and AIKOKO MARU, each mounted eight
5.5-inch guns.  The BENGAL had a single 3-inch gun, the ONDINA one 4-inch.
Yet the two Allied ships fought the Japanese off, the BENGAL actually sinking
the HOKOKO MARU (which caught fire after being hit), although the Dutch tanker
also sank as a result of damage in the battle.
        Finally, some war in the Pacific trivia:

        FIRST SHOTS FIRED AGAINST THE WESTERN ALLIES were by Japanese cruisers
                which began bombarding the landing beach and airfield at
                Kota Bharu in northeastern Malaya a good half hour before
                Japanese planes appeared over Pearl Harbor
        FIRST SHOTS OF THE PACIFIC WAR BY AMERICANS came from the destroyer
                WARD, which fired at a surfaced Japanese midget sub trying to
                sneak into Pearl Harbor before the air attack, scoring a hit
                on the conning tower at point-blank range.
        FIRST JAPANESE PRISONER OF WAR was Ensign Kazuo Sakamaki, who was
                washed ashore uncouncious after his midget sub went aground
                on Oahu.
        FIRST AMERICAN FIGHTER ACE OF THE PACIFIC WAR was Edward "Butch"
                O'Hare, the guy the airport in Chicago is named after, who
                while flying off the carrier LEXINGTON in February 1942 got
                in among a Japanese bomber formation and shot down five in
                five minutes.  O'Hare recorded 12 aerial victories before he
                was killed in 1944 by the tail gunner of an American TBF
                torpedo bomber in a case of mistaken identity.
        FIRST USE OF NAPALM IN THE PACIFIC came during the campaign on Tinian.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:26:11 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Native Americans in WW2

Native Americans serving in World War II

Army         21,767

Navy          1,910

Marines         874

Coast Guard     121

TOTAL        24,672


Five Native Americans won the Medal of Honor during the war--
one with the 26th Division in Sicily (John N. Reese, an Oklahoma Creek),
three with the 45th Division in Italy (Van T. Barfoot, Choctaw, Ernest
Childers, Oklahoma Creek, and Jack Montgomery, Oklahoma Cherokee), and
the fifth (Ernest E Evans, Pawnwee) was a posthumous award for commanding
the USS Johnston (DD-557) at Leyte Gulf.

Of the Native Americans sering with the Marines, some 400 were Navajos
assigned to the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Marine Divisions as part of the
Navajo code talkers program.

Both Choctaws and Comanches were used with Army Signal Corps units in the
European Theater of Operations.


Above cited from THE NATIVE AMERICAN ALMANAC (Prentice-Hall, 1994)


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:32:19 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:RIP LTC Urban

>From the DoD Newswire 6 March 1995

:LT. COL. MATT URBAN DIES

   HOLLAND, Mich.  -- Lt. Col. Matt Urban, a highly-decorated
combat soldier in World War II and recipient of the Medal of Honor,
died Saturday from complications of a collapsed lung. He was 75.
   Nicknamed "The Ghost" because of his sophisticated combat
exploits, Urban was awarded 29 medals for bravery and was awarded the
Purple Heart seven times, one for each time he was wounded in battle.
He was listed as "the most combat-decorated soldier in American
history" in the 1989 Guinness Book of World Records.
   Urban led his troops through six campaigns in North Africa,
Sicily, Belgium, France and Germany.
   He was awarded the Medal of Honor on July 19, 1980, by President
Carter, 35 years after the original nomination was lost. The medal is
the nation's highest decoration for bravery.
   Other awards he received include the Silver Star, Legion of Merit,
Bronze Star, Presidential Unit Citation, World War II Victory Medal
and the American Defense Service Medal.
   He also wrote the book, "The Matt Urban Story: Life and World War
II Experiences."
   Urban was born in New York state. In Michigan, he was recreation
director for the city of Port Huron for seven years, director of the
Monroe Community Center for 16 years and director of the civic and
recreation department of Holland.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:34:15 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Tokyo Remembers

>From the DoD Newswire 6 March 1995

:TOKYO RECALLS DEADLY AIR RAID

   TOKYO  -- A picture of peace and calm, children play in a
sandbox outside the Ireido temple, their laughter mixing with the
sweet smell of incense in the cool air of late winter.
   Fifty years ago, the spot was at the center of one of the most
horror-filled nights of World War II: the firebombing of Tokyo.
   The world remembers the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
which climaxed intensifying U.S. air and land attacks designed to end
a war that began with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. But this
week, the Japanese capital recalls its own descent into hell in the
early hours of March 10, 1945.
   "It was just after midnight when I was awakened by the sound of
the B-29s," said Katsumoto Saotome, who was a child of 12 at the
time. "By the time I looked outside, the flames were already raging
and spreading everywhere."
   For the next several hours, 334 American bombers dropped more than
1,700 tons of incendiary bombs. By dawn, Tokyo was an inferno.
   Fanned by winds created by its own flames, the firestorm razed an
area of roughly 16 square miles -- one fifth of the city. It was the
war's deadliest air raid, outstripping the carnage 27 days earlier
when British and American bombers produced a firestorm in Dresden,
Germany.
   Estimates of the death toll in Tokyo run from 83,000 to 197,000 --
the enormous range a measure of the scale of destruction. Along with
so much else, the flames incinerated family registers and other
demographic records making it impossible for authorities to
accurately measure casualties.
   One million people were left homeless by the attack, which
destroyed working-class areas in northeast Tokyo and left huge swaths
of burned-out blocks in landmark neighborhoods like the Ginza
district.
   "My family lost our house, everything," said Saotome. "But by
dawn, we realized we were lucky. That's when we reached the river and
saw the water thick with corpses. It was terrible."
   Saotome, who has dedicated his life to documenting the bombing's
effects, says he believes about 100,000 people died that night, with
10,000 more killed in later air raids before Japan's surrender on
Aug. 16, 1945. He agrees the precise number of deaths may never be
known.
   Because it was carried out with conventional weapons -- mostly
incendiary bombs and napalm -- the Tokyo raid has long been seen as a
historical footnote to the unleashing of a shocking new weapon, the
atomic bomb.
   There is little doubt, however, that the Tokyo firestorm caused
roughly the same number of immediate deaths as the bombing of
Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945, and more than the total number killed
three days later in the bombing of Nagasaki, roughly 70,000.
   The attack on Tokyo, which came as U.S. Marines fought hideously
bloody battles on the island of Iwo Jima, marked a dramatic raising
of the stakes in the Pacific War. Within weeks, a half dozen other
major Japanese cities became smoldering wastelands.
   "It was all part of one process," said Saotome. "From the blanket
bombing that started with Tokyo, things escalated to Hiroshima."
   In recent years, Tokyo has designated March 10 -- which during the
war was Army Day -- as Peace Day.
   Buddhist and Roman Catholic services are to be held at the Ireido
temple, where the souls of the people killed in the bombing raids and
an additional 58,000 who died in the Tokyo earthquake of 1923 are
worshipped.
   A major exhibition on the bombing has drawn thousands of visitors
over the past few weeks at one Tokyo museum. A ward office in
downtown Tokyo has collected tens of thousands of paper cranes, a
traditional symbol of health and recovery, for a memorial it is
planning.
   For some who lived through the bombing to see Japan rise from the
ashes of defeat to become a world power, there is concern that the
most important lessons have yet to be learned.
   "Our government has never reflected on the past," Saotome said.
"It has never apologized to those it harmed. We will never be able to
put this behind us until that is done."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:20:16 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Postmortem on Japan posts

Mike,
I don't think you owe anyone an apology. I wish I could discourse half so
intelligently on the subject, and I have read much of what you have. You
have a real talent for pulling the meat of the matter out, and explaining
it clearly. Now when do we get the cover page and the table of contents for
your book?

Rear Admiral Willis A Lee Jr; An Annapolis Graduate [I was wrong too - his
nick-name "Ching Chong" came from there according to Coggins in "The
Campaign for Guadacannal"] and a Radar expert, as well as a Battleship
Gunnery Jock par excellance. My books are so confused i can't find all the
stuff I am sure I have on this man; He's a very interesting character -
read: "Battleship at War" by Ivan Musicant for some insights. He [Lee] died
of a heart attack on 25 Aug 1945 in his launch at Casco Bay, Maine, while
working on anti-kamikaze tactics & gunnery techniques for the Navy.
        Sorry I can't find more

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:29:40 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Remagen Bridge

>From the DoD Newswire 7 March 1995

:'MIRACLE OF REMAGEN' RECALLED

   REMAGEN, Germany -- After a career that owed much to American
friends, Heinz Schwarz recalls with pleasure the morning he
eavesdropped on the urgent message to the commander of the Remagen
bridge 50 years ago.
   "The Amis have broken through!" the caller said. "Prepare to blow
the bridge! Heil Hitler!"
   Schwarz, then 16, fled his post at the telephone exchange atop the
bridge tower on the east side of the Rhine.
   Within an hour, U.S. Army Sgt. Michael Chinchar had captured that
tower, leading an American column that swarmed across the bridge into
military history.
   The events of March 7, 1945, were quickly dubbed the "Miracle of
Remagen."
   The miracle was that the methodical German army had failed to
destroy a bridge over the Rhine, the most important natural obstacle
to the Allied advance into Germany.
   Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower pushed 25,000 soldiers across the
railroad bridge from its capture until it collapsed 10 days later. By
then, Army engineers had put two pontoon bridges across the river. An
enraged Hitler ordered a kangaroo court to execute four officers in
charge of the bridge.
   The Remagen bridgehead "was psychologically devastating" to
Germany and probably shortened the war by anywhere from a week to a
month, thus saving thousands of lives, said Kurt Kleemann, Remagen's
historian and an organizer of 50th anniversary observances.
   In the intervening years, Germans who came to see World War II as
a disastrous sacrifice for an evil Fuehrer began to view the loss of
the Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen as their victory, too.
   "Imagine how many more towns would have been reduced to rubble if
the Americans had been stuck on the western side of the Rhine and had
to bomb and shell their way across," said Schwarz. "And meanwhile,
the Russians would have advanced farther in the east."
   The plan for the Rhineland offensive of February 1945 called for
British Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery's 21st Army Group to storm
across the Rhine north of the Ruhr Valley, while the U.S. 12th Army
Group, to the south, pushed up to the river, without crossing it.
   But when the soldiers of the U.S. 9th Armored Division, after
fighting their way through the valleys of the Eifel, reached a
plateau above Remagen on March 7, the Ludendorff Bridge rose from the
Rhine mist below them. German troops and civilians were pouring
across it in retreat.
   Violating his instructions to proceed down the Rhine, Gen. William
M. Hoge ordered his men to take the bridge.
   "What if the bridge blows up in my face?" asked Lt. Karl
Timmermann, whose company got the nod to lead the charge. No one
answered him.
   Chinchar, having led his men into Remagen town on the west end of
the bridge, was busy chasing down a prisoner as Timmerman got the
order to cross the bridge.
   "I came back to my post and Timmermann says, 'Where the hell you
been? Get across that bridge,"' Chinchar recalled in a phone
conversation from his home in Saddle Brook, N.J. "I told him, 'I'm
going to sit here and catch my breath."'
   Timmermann threatened to court-martial him, and Chinchar said,
"OK, here's my rifle."
   It was a fortuitous bit of insubordination. As Chinchar sat and
smoked, with Timmermann pacing and fuming, the men heard a "whoosh"
as 660 pounds of dynamite lifted the bridge from its stone piers.
   But when the dust settled, the bridge was intact. No one knows
why, but not all the charges exploded.
   Many of the German soldiers fled into the railroad tunnel on the
east end of the bridge. Others deserted. Schwarz walked to his family
home, four miles south.
   Chinchar saddled up. "I said, 'OK, let's go,' and (Pvt. Artis)
Massie says, 'I don't wanna, but I will."'
   Over the years, in a retelling heightened by the 1968 movie "The
Bridge at Remagen," legend has Chinchar crossing the 1,050-foot
bridge in a hail of bullets.
   But he describes the bridge capture as practically a cakewalk.
   "As far as I know of, I didn't get shot at," said Chinchar, 77. "I
wasn't running through anything but air."
   Still, there was shooting, particularly when the soldiers fought
their way up the big cliff looming over the eastern end of the
bridge. Twenty-four Americans died on or around the bridge.
   Six hundred men were involved in taking the bridge, including 200
engineers who cut wires to the unexploded dynamite and did quick
repairs. Chinchar, Timmermann and 11 others were awarded the
Distinguished Service Cross.
   Timmermann died of cancer in 1951. His widow, La Vera Hansen, who
has since remarried, will attend the 50th anniversary commemmoration
this year with Chinchar.
   "What Karl did made a place in history," she said in a telephone
interview from Mesa, Ariz. "But he didn't feel he was somebody
special. All the boys coming home at that time felt they did what
they had to do."
   For Heinz Schwarz, the loss of the bridge meant the war was over.
Arriving at his home in the town of Leubsdorf, he hid his uniform
in a crate, and waited. The first Americans arrived four days later,
and Schwarz had the chance to try out his trade school English.
   "How is Shirley Temple?" he asked them.
   Schwarz became a leader of the young Christian Democratic party
after the war and visited the United States at President Eisenhower's
invitation in 1958.
   He worked closely with the FBI as interior minister of
Rhineland-Palatinate state in the early 1970s. Helmut Kohl, now
chancellor, was then governor of the state, which includes Remagen.
   The Ludendorff Bridge, built during World War I to move troops and
supplies to the Western Front, was never rebuilt. In 1980, Remagen
Mayor Hans-Peter Kuerten sold bits of the bridge to finance a "peace
museum" in the bridge towers facing the basalt cliffs across the
river.
   "The bridge was built for war, and when it was destroyed, we were
happy to see it gone," said Kuerten, now retired. "It was the start
of a true democracy in Germany, and the building of bridges of
another kind to America."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:25:42 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Austria's Nazi Past

>From the DoD Newswire 7 March 1995

:WAR ANNIVERSARY CONFRONTS AUSTRIA WITH NAZI PAST

     VIENNA, March 7 - When Austria, like the rest of Europe,
commemorates the end of World War Two this spring, its people will
come face to face with a taboo that has troubled the national psyche
for the past 50 years.
     Was Austria liberated or was it occupied in April 1945, when
Soviet soldiers took control of Vienna from the German and Austrian
Nazi SS?
     For more than 45 years after the war, Austria presented itself as
the first victim of Adolf Hitler's Nazi aggression, buckling when
German troops marched into Vienna in the 1938 Anschluss.
     Germany has apologised repeatedly for the war, but officialdom
here washed its hands of wartime atrocities committed on Austrian
territory.
     Yet many of the men who ran the industrialised murder of the
Jews, including Ernst Kaltenbrunner and Alois Brunner, were Austrian,
as were many concentration camp commandants.
     "It's as if the nation is suffering from a collective lapse of
memory," said Vienna historian Florian Freund.
     "Virtually nobody wants to recognise that Austria was implicated
in mass extermination."
     It was only in 1993 that an Austrian leader explicitly admitted
that his country was also a servant of Nazism.
     Some historians and political analysts say Austria's reluctance
to come to terms with its past as a willing member of the Third Reich
has a direct bearing on a resurgence of rightwing extremism and the
ability of the far right Freedom Party to capture nearly a quarter of
the vote in last October's general election.
     "The resurgence of the neo-Nazis is a symptom of not coming to
terms with the past," said Willi Lasek of the Centre for Contemporary
History. "There are, of course, other factors such as
unemployment...but the past cannot be separated from it."
     Neo-Nazi activists carried out a letter bomb campaign in December
1993 and another last October. A neo-Nazi group said it was
responsible for a bomb which exploded in southeast Austria on February
5, killing four gypsies -- the worst single act of racist violence
since World War Two.
     "It's frightening that 50 years after the end of the war, extreme
nationalist subversive activities can still sow fear and terror in the
country," said Erwin Budicek, a member of the young Social Democrats.
     Instead of atoning for the misdeeds of their compatriots as in
Germany, postwar Austrian leaders broke clean with the past,
immediately introducing laws outlawing national socialism.
     They rarely mentioned that most of the country backed
Austrian-born Adolf Hitler and gave the local-boy-made-good a hero's
welcome when he addressed more than a million Viennese in the central
Heldenplatz in 1938. No air time was given to Austria's complicity in
the extermination of Jews.
     Historians say it was more a wave of voluntary assimilation
rather than collaboration, making Austria's wartime record different
from that of Nazi sympathisers in the rest of Europe.
     Lasek said the Allies failed to bring to book some of Austria's
600,000 Nazis, many of whom assumed key positions in society, in the
justice system and police, after the war.
     "Former Nazis were once again socially accepted because of their
jobs," he said.
     Chancellor Franz Vranitzky admitted Austria's guilt on a visit to
Israel in June 1993 and begged the forgiveness of victims of the
Holocaust.
     "Just as we claim credit for our good deeds we must beg
forgiveness for the evil ones, the forgiveness of those who survived
and the forgiveness of the descendants of those who perished,"
Vranitzky said in a speech in Jerusalem.
     "We share moral responsibility because many Austrians welcomed
the Anschluss, supported the Nazi regime and helped it to function,"
he said.
     A year later, President Thomas Klestil, the first Austrian head
of state to visit Israel, told the Knesset his country had failed in
the past to acknowledge its role in the Nazi Holocaust or do enough to
help Jewish survivors.
     "Both speeches were extremely important...but they came too
late," said Vienna University doctor of history Gustav Spann.
     Some commentators say that because Austria ignored the past for
nearly half a century, it could take another generation for
Vranitzky's words to seep into the national psyche, if ever.
     Historian Freund has launched a huge project to compile the names
of all the Jews who lived in the country before 1938.
     No official list of names exists in Austria of the 190,000
Austrian Jews who fled the country or were rounded up and sent to
death camps. Nor is there a memorial to the Jewish victims of the
Holocaust.
     Postwar Austria was also marked by 10 years of Allied occupation.
The Soviet Union left the country in 1955, with U.S., British and
French troops, only when Austria agreed to enshrine neutrality in its
constitution.
     With the Kremlin looking over its shoulder, Austria became
sidelined in European affairs, a position that was only really broken
with the collapse of the Soviet communist bloc and Vienna's entry into
the European Union in January this year.
     Austria's aversion to outside interference was clear in 1986,
when the country elected as president former U.N. secretary-general
Kurt Waldheim, despite the international outcry over charges that he
covered up his wartime past with Hitler's army in the Balkans.
     Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal said the World Jewish Congress (WJC)
campaign against Waldheim ensured his victory.
     "Waldheim got 100,000 votes more than he expected in the
presidential election. But they were not votes for Waldheim, they were
against the WJC," he said in an interview.
     Analyst Oliver Rathkolb said the future looked rosier because the
majority of the younger Austrians held strong anti-Nazi views, but one
imponderable was the rise of the far right Fredom Party led by the
charismatic Joerg Haider.
     Haider, whose party took nearly one in four votes and became the
biggest far right parliamentary grouping in Europe in October's
election, drew support from young working class voters and is
beginning to attract professionals.
     Rathkolb said there was a danger that once Haider won control of
a power centre such as Vienna in 1996 elections, his party would
attempt to rewrite history.
     "Austria has not yet come to terms with its past though we seem
to be getting there. One turning point will be the elections in Vienna
in 1996," he said.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 18:25:24 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: more on "Glacier Girl" P-38F

On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Steve New wrote:

> I'll be glad to scan them (as soon as I convince Dennis to send me a
> set).  As for FTP, I'm pretty sure that BYRD would accept them, but I'd
> have to check with them first.

Dennis sent me a number of these P-38 pictures some time ago. I have
access to a scanner, and I wil try to scan some and to put them on
byrd.mu.wvnet.edu and http://www.vestnett.no/vulcan/ in the next days. I
hope that there are no copyright problems?

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:07:11 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Britain and V-J Day

                BRITAIN'S V-E DAY CELEBRATIONS

(quoting from '1995 Historic Events In Britain'0

        "This year marks the 50th anniversary of the end of the Second World
War, and London's Imperial War Museum plans a series of special events. May 8
is "Victory In Europe Day" (V-E Day), but the Victory Festival will run from
March 17 - August 28, including exhibitions, talks, films, music, and special
shows.
        The exhibitions are: "London At War", March 17-November 27, with
recreations of wartime scenes in the capital, and film, photographic, and
personal recollections.
        The "Channel Islands Occupation & Liberation", April 9 - September,
focusses on the only part of the British Isles to be occupied by the
Germans.
        "Victory In The Far East", August, highlights the plight of
prisoners of the japanese, and celebrates the war's end."





Sidney Allinson.




--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:10:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Media: Most combat-decorated soldier buried

 >Army pallbearers carried the casket of Lt. Col. Matt Urban during funeral
 >services at Arlington Nation Cemetary yesterday. Urban, 75, a World War
 >II veteran known as the most combat-decorated soldier in U.S. history,
 >died last week of complications from a colapsed lung. he was awarded 29
 >medals for bravery and received the Purple Heart 7 times.
 >
 >God Speed,...
 >
 >Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst

Alan,

The papers in the NYC metro area said that Urban and Audie Murphy
each had the same number of medals, 29 including the MOH.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 14:09:49 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: INFO: Marianas

I am doing research for a WWW homepage for my fathers ship the USS Evanas
DD-552. Below is a paragraph taken from Dictionary of American Naval
Fighting Ships, the task forces information in parentheses is from  Samuel
Eliot Morison's History of United States Naval Operations in WWII Vol VIII.
I have a couple of questions for the readers.

1. Task Force 50.17 Fueling Group, is there any material that covers this
task force during 3 Jun - Aug 44?

2. Are there any maps online for this area of the pacific?

Evans reached Majuro March 29th 1944 from Pearl Harbor and the east coast,
and after escorting Cimarron (AO-22) to a midocean fueling rendezvous,
conducted independent antisubmarine patrols around Japanese-held atolls in
the Marshalls until 13th of May.  After training in the Hawaiian Islands,
she departed Pearl Harbor on the 3rd of June to screen the fueling and
aircraft replacement group (Task Force 50.17 Fueling Group) supporting both
the fast carrier task force and the carrier escort force (Task Force 52
Northern Attack Force) during the assault and capture of Saipan which began
on the 15th of June.  She continued to screen this fueling group through the
summer as the Marianas were won, returning to Eniwetok to replenish from
time to time.

Thanks in advance.
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:19:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

Hello, Alex!

 In the end, the information which you
> have so kindly provided seems to support my opinion that the Allies
> railroaded Doenitz.

    No question about it!!

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:22:24 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on Bong

Hello, Chris!

This has probably been answered but a good wingman will protect his
leader at all times. Hotshotting it off on your own may often as not
cause you to get nailed, particularly if inexperienced.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 14:47:01 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japan bibliography

        I guess having talked so much on Japan I owe the list a look at some of
the sources for all that hot air.  But first, a couple more footnotes.
        An interesting offshoot of the Aleutians campaign was the capture there
of an intact Zero which had made a forced landing.  The plane was taken back to
the States for a thorough evaluation, and what was learned was applied directly
to the design of the Grumman Hellcat fighter, which was specifically designed
to defeat the Japanese aircraft.
        Speaking of Zeros, Grummans, and the incident in which Butch O'Hare
lost his life, Saburo Sakai, the Japanese Navy ace to whose writings I have
often referred, lost an eye (and nearly his life as well) in a case of mistaken
identity involving the Grumman TBF "Avenger" torpedo bomber.  Over Guadalcanal,
Sakai moved in to attack a formation of planes he identified as Grumman
fighters.  They were Grummans, but not Wildcat fighters.  They were the new
Avenger attack planes.  Sakai was sure he had surprise on his side, because as
he approached the formation closed up (fighters seeing an enemy approach from
the rear would usually scatter in a pre-determined "break," the formation
generally splitting off into two groups which broke away in opposite
directions).  Only when Sakai had closed to within point-blank range did he
discover that these were not fighters but bombers, each mounting two
.50-calibre machineguns covering the tail above and below.  Caught in a vicious
short-range crossfire from a dozen machineguns, he reportedly managed to flame
two of the Avengers before blacking out.  Sakai, blind in one eye, half his
body temporarily paralyzed from bullet fragments in his head and body,
recovered conciousness before crashing and miraculously managed to guide his
shot-up Zero home to Rabaul.  He staggered into the ready room and made his
report on the mission before passing out.
        Finally, having spoken of Admiral Raizo Tanaka so often, I should say
that he was appointed to command the transport operations to Guadalcanal in the
first week of November 1942, as part of the large-scale naval effort to
reinforce the island.  This was the beginning of the famed "Tokyo Express," as
Tanaka's destroyers completed 70 trips to the island carrying troops and
supplies before the month was out.  I have earlier cited the naval support of
Guadalcanal in early November as a relatively rare example of harmonious
cooperation between the services, however, even this was only acheived after a
good bit of initial controversy.  The Navy did not want to run large transports
into Guadalcanal (as the Americans were doing), arguing-- correctly, as it
turned out-- that they would not be able to protect such large, slow vessels.
General Hyakutake, commander of 17th Army in the Solomons, insisted on using
transports because he felt he needed another full division, and especially 17th
Army's heavy artillery, in order to secure the island.  Hyakutake threatened
that if the Navy refused to help he would still try to send troop transports
in, and lead them himself in the first ship.  Lt-Col Tsuji, often an instigator
and a man who frequently got his way through intimidation and belligerent
behavior, in this case played the role of a mediator, and personally explained
the Army's position to Admiral Yamamoto.  When Yamamoto agreed, and, with tears
in his eyes, begged Tsuji to persuade Hyakutake to himself go to the island on
a destroyer, which was safer, because his command abilities would be needed,
Tsuji recorded that he was so moved he impulsively wished he could die under
the Admiral's command.  BTW, its this sort of thing that bothers me about
Tsuji.  One has to be a little cynical about such statements and the sincerity
of the sentiments behind them, since Tsuji had plenty of opportunities to die
as an example if he so chose.  Instead, he sneaked back home disguised as a
monk after the war, while Homma, who tried to countermand some of the actions
Tsuji instigated in the Phillipines, bore the responsibility for those actions
and paid with his life.  This is not to deny Tsuji's personal courage as a
soldier-- in Malaya, even though he had a staff job as 25th Army's chief of
operations, he spent a lot of time at the front, often with the spearhead
battalions, and got close enough to the action that in one engagement he was
wounded slightly in the buttocks and upper leg by British shrapnel.  But one
has to wonder about the moral courage of such a man.  Another complex
individual.
        Well, enough already.  Here's the bibliography (with a few omissions
probable-- I've given too many examples of short-term memory loss in the last
week).

Saburo Hayashi, "Kogun"
Masonobu Tsuji, "Singapore"
Saburo Sakai, "Samurai"
Masonori Ito, "The End of the Imperial Japanese Navy"
Richard Gage (ed) "Peace Is Our Duty"
Saburo Ienaga, "The Pacific War 1931-1945"
Mitsoru Yoshida, "Requiem For Battleship Yamato"
William Slim, "Defeat Into Victory"
Joseph Stilwell, "The Stilwell Papers"
William Manchester, "Goodbye Darkness"
William Manchester, "American Caesar"
Barbara Tuchman, "Stilwell and the American Experience In China"
Edgar Snow, "Red Star Over China"
Theodore White, "In Search Of History"
Gordon Prange, "Target Tokyo"
John Toland, "Rising Sun"
Ronald Spector, "Eagle Against the Sun"
Lin Piao, "Long Live The Victory of People's War! In Commemoration of the 20th
        Anniversary of Victory in the Chinese People's War of Resistance
        Against Japan." (nice title; short, dry book)
Rius, "Mao For Beginners"
Albert Swinson, "The Fall of Singapore"
Cordell Hull, "Diaries"
Samuel Elliot Morison, v.14 "The Pacific War Won" (other volumes, for example
        the ones dealing with Biak and Peleliu, skimmed for references)
D.C. Horton, "New Georgia"
Ed Berry (ed), "Semper Fi, Mac"
John Vader, "New Guinea"
Graeme Kent, "Guadalcanal: Island Ordeal"
Basil Liddel Hart, "History of the Second World War"
Peter Young (ed), "The World Almanac Book Of World War II"
Benis Frank, "Okinawa: Touchstone to Victory"
A.J. Barker, "Suicide Weapon"
William Gunston, "Encyclopedia of Combat Aircraft of World War II"
Angelucci and Matriccardi, "World War II Airplanes"
Ray Tolliver, "Fighter Aces"
Anthony Mollo, "Armed Forces of World War II"
Ian Hogg, "Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II" (or similar title)
John Weeks, "Infantry Weapons"
WHB Smith, "Small Arms of the World"
Chamberlain and Ellis, "Tanks of the World 1918-45"
Richard O'Kane, "Wahoo"
John Ray Skates, "Invasion of Japan: Alternative to the Bomb"
Charles MacDonald, "Airborne"
Ian Hogg, "Barrage: The Guns In Action"


Like I said, I'm sure there's more, these are the ones that occur to me off the
top of my head.  Also usefull for background, if not directly contributing to
these posts, were the following:

William Halsey, "Admiral Halsey's Story"
Winston Churchill, "The Second World War" (6 volumes)
Stephen Roskill, "The War At Sea"
Lewis Brereton, "Diaries"
Holland Smith, "Coral and Brass"

and, for a good look at life aboard ship in the Pacific in the US Navy,

James Fahey, "Pacific War Diary"
Douglas Leach, "Now Hear This"

Oh yeah, though I'm almost ashamed to mention it, I got one or two details
about Satoshi Anabuki from Lawrence Cortesi, "The Deadly Skies"-- one of the
worst-written books I've ever read that actually got published (count the
number of times a plane gets shot down by "chattering machine gun fire" or
"whooshing 20-mm rounds"-- hey,
Lawrence, at 12 to 20 rounds per second the average aircraft mg of WW2 didn't
"chatter," it ripped.  Also, you think I made a few factual boo-boos lately,
this guy's getting books published like the one about North Africa where he
populates the skies with P-38's mounting 37-mm guns and P-47's with 20-mm's)
but he did apparently consult some first-hand sources.

Regards

Mike Yaklich
tell he used

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 14:51:27 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Postmortem on Japan posts

Mike,
I heartily second Jim's congrats.  I learned more from your posts
(to include a good bib) about the Chinese and Japanese during
WWII than I had even hoped to learn in the next five years.
Thanks for the enlightenment.  Job well done.
:)
Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:17:19 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japan bibliography

        I knew as soon as I got up from the keyboard I'd think of a couple more
books I used:

Curtiss LeMay, "Superfortress"
William Belote, "Corregidor: Saga of a Fortress"
Gregory Boyington, "Baa Baa Black Sheep"
there was also a semi-official history of the 5th Air Force but I just can't
remember the name-- I did take copious notes many years ago, though.  Same for
a British history which mentioned a lot about the air war over Malaya,
Singapore, and Indonesia.  In my foolish youth I didn't realize how important
it was to reference one's sources-- just having the info was enough.

Didn't use specifically, but good reading on the air war (first person)

Ted Lawson, "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo"
Daniel Lopez, "Into the Teeth of the Tiger"
Robert Scott, "God Is My Copilot"

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:42:57 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

Ray,

Well, first the comment on WWI/WWII, it was not exactly the Versailles
treaty that started WWII, it helped add to the tensions, but WWII happened
when people allowed Hitler to unilaterally disgard the Versailles Treaty,
which Europe then agreed to, and then appeasing hitler because of a feeling
of Guilt that they had because of what they did in WWI.  So 'punishing'
a nation did not really cause WWII, it was letting them out of the corner
and then giving them a loolipop while letting them believe that they
never deserved to be put in the corner in the first place, which is exactly
what is happening now, Japan saying that it did not deserve to be the
Villan for WWII/Pac, next will be people saying that they could have won
if we didn't use the Abomb, which will probably happen in 5 years (anyone
want to lay a bet on it?)

4th of July is a national holiday, VJ day is not, so it should actually
offend the British more than VJ day offends the Japanese, but the British
have accepted it, and currently even attend the festivities in the
spirit in which they are given.

I would rather have all sides in the war at the ceremonial functions, but
it seems that the Japanese government refuses to be invited to any of them,
while at least the rest of us are willing to live and let live, while
still remembering the past, I think that the Japanese should do a little
more understanding of their own, especially when they say that the
Russians and Americans commited more atrocities than they did, and that
they refuse to appologize to even fellow Asians for the war they fought,
and still maintain that it was an anti-imperialistic struggle, whichj
is pure BS, just ask a Korean, Manchukuoian(?), China, Phillipenes, the
list goes on.....

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:45:15 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

Ray, (re flag)

I would wheigh the reasons for keeping the symbol and the reason
of the cause, ie how important, because symbols are very important
in our society.

John E. Kollar

but not for this one, maybe they can change the meatball?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:22:03 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japan biblio

        A couple more good ones I forgot:

Fuchida and Okumiye, "Midway"
James Sadkovich (ed), "Reevaluating The Major Naval Combatants of World War II"

also, that should have been Cordell Hull, "Memoirs" (not "Diaries")

        Finally, there were two other important sources:
        My class notes for a course here at Pitt, "World War 2 In the Pacific,"
taught by Dr. Richard Smethurst, and, last but certainly not least,
"WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu"-- so thanks to all the other contributors for
those little bits and pieces I picked up right here along the way.

        I should also mention a few personal histories picked up informally
which helped me get a better picture of what the war in the Pacific looked like
to the average Joe.  Like Joe Haller, my barber when I was a kid, who was a
Marine on Okinawa and liked to tell war stories, or another ex-Marine named
Elmer Frankhauser who was on Okinawa and a few other islands (including Iwo, if
I remember correctly), or Paul Perrini, a sailor on the Missouri and our local
police chief, etc...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:33:33 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japan biblio

        One last source I can't ignore because it was very useful in describing
the period of "gekokujo;"

Hugh Byas, "Government By Assassination"

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:43:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re2: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Kelvin Luther wrote:
>
        I was not commenting on their contribution to the Axis cause but
answering the idea that the Poles were somehow being singled out for
their contribution to the holocaust.  As for giving military aid I would
be interested in knowing what kind of contribution Bulgaria made to the
war effort if anyone out there knows of a source please let me know.  I
feel safe in saying that their contribution to the war effort is a
roundabout way of assigning guilt for the holocaust (as mentioned above
France's contribution was large both militarily as well as direct
contributions to the holocaust).  Militarily many more German soldiers
were free to man camps and round up Jews because they didn't have to
occupy collaborationist Vichy France to the same extent they would occupy
any other conquered area.  I was also trying to point out that the simple
fact that many other people died in the camps besides Jews does not mean
the rest of the people from their group didn't contribute.  If thousands
of Catholics died it doesn't mean Catholics didn't contribute to the
roundups.  They were not interned because they were Catholics but because
they either had a Jewish relative, inlaw, or had tried to protect people
from the camps.  Much has also been written about how the Germans
considered just about everything and everyone they disagreed with to be
Jewish and degenerate.  Rest assured that anyone in the camps had somehow
been placed in this category.
        I also want to come to Bulgaria's defense a little.  They were
surrounded by hostile countries and made the decision to ally with the
obvious holder of power in their region against the Russians.  Because of
this they managed to maintain some semblance of autonomy and saved their
Jewish population (I am not implying that saving the Jews was their
motivation only the outcome of their retaining power).  The Danes managed
to save their Jewish population because they too had some autonomy after
the Germans invaded (I believe they then lost their control over their
gov't).  Finally the Finns also managed to deny the Germans the right to
export their Jewish population to the camps.  Again, a country forced to
ally itself to the Germans because of the Russians.  We can sit back and
say the Russians were our allies but this was only out of convenience to
them.  They cooperated with Hitler and later Japan in their aggressive
expansionist policies.  Would Hitler have invaded Poland when he did if
Russia hadn't colluded with him to divide it?  I for one resent Russia's
actions far more than Finland's or Bulgaria's regardless of their later
being thrown into the allied arena by a German invasion.

Kelvin,
     Firstly, I did not mean to insult the Bulgarians or to claim that
they were no better than the Germans in their conduct during the war.
I wished to point out that if the Poles, who fought the Germans and
Russians and who did not "officially" collaborate (I don't want to start
that arguement again) can be accused of playing a part in the Holocaust,
then nobody else in Europe can claim to be innocent on that issue
either.  I realize that the Bulgarians, like the Finns, were forced to
ally themselves with the Germans in order to protect themselves from
the Russians.  I also agree that the Russians were only considered the
ally of the Western powers, because the West needed the Russians.
The Allied nations of Eastern Europe, however, never considerd the
Russians their ally.  I can understand your having greater resentment
toward the Russians than the Finns or Bulgarians.  After all, both the
Finns and Bulgarians had the choice of being allied with the world's
greatest mass-murderer (Stalin) or the world's second greatest mass-
murderer (Hitler).  It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 17:09:27 -0600
From:    BALAM V JORGE R <ri084424@UDLAPVMS.PUE.UDLAP.MX>
Subject: KAMIKAZES AIRCRAFTS

        Does anybody know which aircrafts were chosen for the Kamikazes pilots?
        Is there a source where I can find how many Kamikazes were in the WWII?,
Which target they preferred?, A diary of their missions etc?....
                        Thanks
                JORGE BALAM "BALITA"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 18:04:00 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

Noticed a second battleship "rollover" shot in Victory at Sea's
episode on the RN-RIN actions in the Med. In this one, the ship
rolls on beam end and then blows up- it looks like boilers,
then magazines- with much of the crew, God help them, clinging
to the quarter-turned hull. Does anyone know what ship this is?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 19:06:56 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-MAR-1945

On 10-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Canadian 1st Army sector, Operation Veritable comes
to an end with the capture of the region between the Rhine and Moselle.
Operation Blockbuster also comes to an end. In the U.S. 1st Army sector,
the 9th Division expands its bridgehead over the Rhine at Remagen, while
the Germans continue their efforts to destroy the bridge. In the 3rd Army
sector, the 4th Armoured Division completes occupying the area west of the
Rhine between Andernach and Koblenz and north of the Moselle between
Koblenz and Cochem. The 10th Armoured Division reaches its objectives in
the Wittlich area and begins advancing towards the Moselle.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, an intense air and artillery
bombardment of the Shimbu line takes a heavy toll on the Japanese forces
forming for a major effort against the 6th Division. In the 8th Army
sector, the Romblon and Simara attack forces sail from Mindoro. On
Mindanao, the 41st division lands on the Zamboanga Peninsula virtually
unopposed.

Iwo Jima - On the right flank of the VAC, the 4th Marine Division continues
southeast toward the coast against decreasing resistance. The 5th Marine
Division is being held up on the left flank by rugged and well defended
terrain.

Burma - The British 36th Division takes Mongmit.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 18:38:00 CST
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Generals

I was just reading a post on Milhst-L in which the author was attempting
to ask everyone who they thought the greatest general in history was.
Several people, including myself, wrote to say that that was a rather
open-ended question, which covered too much ground and was difficult to
answer.  This question did make me wonder something in relationship to
WWII.  Rather than being concerned with the best or worst generals, I
would be interested to see what WWII generals the members of this list
think are the most under-rated.  If this particular discussion has taken
place in the past, would someone please let me know where in the
archieves I should look.  If this discussion has not taken place before
then I would like to begin my casting my vote for Lt. Gen. Wladyslaw
Anders, the commander of the Polish II Corps in the Italian Campaign.
Anders managed to convert a half-starved group of Polish P.O.W.'s
into a skilled fighting force which managed to capture Monte Cassino
which the others Allies (including the Brits, Canadians, Indians, and
Americans) had failed.

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 20:35:29 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: New User Intro

Since I have been "lurking" about this discussion for several days I
suppose this is a little late for a true intro.  But, truth to tell, being
just an amateur historian I have found myself rather intimidated by the
level of information being passed around this group.  I'm afraid my
contributions to this area will be mainly in the form of questions.

Huge thanks to Mike Yaklich.  Mike, your "Tactical Afterthoughts on Japan"
and other posts have been both entertaining and educational.

Well, I suppose I should ask my first question.  Does anyone know exactly
when in 1945 the Soviet Union offically entered the war in the Pacific?
And, why did it take them so long to declare war against Japan?

Thanks to everyone in this group for some fascinating reading.

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 20:50:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 10 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 10 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 5 B-24s radar-bomb
targets at Kataoka on Shimushu Island, and Suribachi and Kakumabetsu on
Paramushiru Island with unobserved results; 1 fighter is sighted but no
attack is made; 2 other B-24s on this mission abort due to weather and
mechanical trouble. B-25 missions to the Hayakegawa River and Paramushiru are
also cancelled due to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 32 B-24s blast the railroad yards at
Tsanghsien and Tehsien; 10 B-24s and 4 P-40s attack Siangtan and nearby
targets of opportunity; 60+ fighter-bombers hit river, road, and railroad
targets, gun positions, warehouses, airstrips, and troops around Sinyang,
Yiyang, Changsha, Kiyang, Yoyang, Hengyang, Hankow, and Wuchang.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 43: In the Malayan States, 24 of 29
B-29s bomb the marshalling yard at Kuala Lumpur; 1 of the B-29s drops over
half of its bombs at Alor Star Airfield and another attacks a freighter in
the channel leading to Port Swettenham. 3 others attack Khao Huakhang,
Thailand.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 13 P-47s support forces of the
British 36 Division in the Mogok area; 46 P-47s and P-38s sweep the roads S
of the bomb line; 49 others hit supply areas behind the enemy lines, attack a
bivouac near Nam-yang, and bomb a truck park N of Mong Yai. 537 air supply
sorties are flown to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 877: 1,374 bombers and 670 fighters attack rail targets in
Germany by PFF methods; they claim 2-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-51s are
lost:
  1. 376 B-24s are dispatched to hit the rail viaducts at Arnsberg (115)
and Bielefeld (114) and the marshalling yard at Paderborn; 10 hit the
secondary target, the marshalling yard at Bielefeld; 1 B-24 is damaged. The
escort is 146 of 155 P-51s.
  2. 526 B-17s are sent to hit the Sud (109), Erfeld (111) and Eving (153)
marshalling yards at Dortmund and the Soest marshalling yard (138); 3 other
B-17s fly a scouting mission; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 44 damaged;
2 airmen are WIA. Escorting are 152 of 158 P-51s; 1 is damaged beyond
repair.
  3. 457 B-17s are sent to hit the Sinsen (89) and Coesfeld (38) rail
crossings and the marshalling yards at Schwerte (116) and Hagen (41); 136
hit the secondary, a marshalling yard at Dortmund; 33 others hit Hamm, a
target of opportunity; 26 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is WIA. 98 of 100
P-51s escort; 2 P-51s are lost.
  4. 12 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  5. 144 P-47s and P-51s fly a freelance support mission for the bombers;
they claim 2-0-1 aircraft in the air.
  6. 72 of 74 P-51s escort Ninth AF bombers on their strikes.
  7. 27 of 28 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  8. 5 P-51s escort 7 F-5s and 4 Spitfires on a photo reconnaissance
mission over the Ruhr.
  Mission 879: 13 B-24s attack the marshalling yard at Munster during the
night without loss.
  Mission 880: 12 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night without loss.
  The 857th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy)
(attached to 1st Air Division) moves from Harrington to Bassingbourne,
England with B-24s (the 857th begins flying weather reconnaissance missions
today).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 383 A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s strike 5 marshalling yards, a communications center, 2 city areas,
miscellaneous targets in the Koblenz-Braubach area, and a target of
opportunity; Eighth and Ninth AF fighters escort the bombers, attack ground
targets, fly patrols, armed reconnaissance, and provide cover and ground
support over the Remagen bridge area where the US 9th Infantry Division
expands it's bridgehead against fierce opposition, support the 4th Armored
Division in the Koblenz area and the XX Corps in the Saarburg area, and
cooperate with the XVI Corps near Wesel. The 33d Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Le
Culot, Belgium to Venlo, the Netherlands with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 191 heavy bombers hit
the Verona-Parona di Valpolicella railroad bridge; 1 other bombs the Voghera
marshalling yard. Supply missions to Yugoslavia and reconnaissance operations
continue.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s bomb bridges and
other communications targets in the E Po Valley during the night of 9/10 Mar;
B-25s bomb bridges at Ora, Bozzolo, and San Michele all'Adige, and a railroad
fill at the Ceraino railroad station; fighters and fighter-bombers hit
communications and targets of opportunity at various locations in the E Po
Valley, including several bridges, and numerous ammunition dumps and
vehicles.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 10 B-24s from Guam Island hit Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima Island which 9 B-24s again hit during the night of 10/11 Mar
on separate snooper strikes. 23 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Calarian
Airfield on Mindanao Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 40: During the predawn hours, 279
B-29s, of 325 airborne, blast the Tokyo urban area with incendiaries,
destroying 267,171 buildings, about one-fourth in the city, killing 83,793
and wounding 40,918 people and destroying 15.8 square miles (40.9 square
km); this death total is the highest of any single day's action during the
war, exceeding the deaths caused by the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima; 20
other B-29s bomb alternates and targets of opportunity; 14 B-29s are lost;
the participating B-29s are from the XXI Bomber Command's 73d, 313th, and
314th Bombardment Wings (Very Heavy) based on Guam Island, Tinian Island, and
Saipan Island in the Mariana Islands; the raids are flown at levels ranging
from 4,900 to 9,200 feet (1,494 to 2,804 m).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao
Island, B-24s and B-25s over the Zamboanga Peninsula area bomb the town of
Zamboanga, Calarian Airfield, Pangasahan, Port Holland, Kulibato Point, and
Sibago Island. On Luzon Island, B-24s bomb the Ipo area and Aparri Airfield;
B-25s and A-20s support guerrillas near San Fernando and bomb Cabugao;
fighter-bombers hit Caballo Island in Manila Bay, bomb the town of Minanga,
hit enemy concentrations at Burgos, near Ft Stotsenburg, in Batangag
Province, and at other locations, and attack Teresa. B-24s bomb Kudat and
Jesselton Airfields in Borneo.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

10/0148Z MAR

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Mar 1995 to 9 Mar 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 34 messages totalling 2089 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Aggressive Warfare
  2. CARLISLE BARRACKS ONLINE
  3. Last Japan appendix-- the battlewagon war (2)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 03-10-95
  5. Obersalzberg (part 1) (2)
  6. WEAP: What do they cost (3)
  7. Draft US Nurses
  8. Airshow Sked
  9. Generals (2)
 10. INF: _A Soldier's Story_ ... Breaching the Rhine
 11. Japan biblio
 12. WEAP: Kamikazes (2)
 13. New User Intro (2)
 14. [      WEAP: What do they cost ]: Outbound mail text body lost
 15. [      Airshow Sked ]: Outbound mail text body lost
 16. [      Draft US Nurses ]: Outbound mail text body lost
 17. [      Re: Generals ]: Outbound mail text body lost
 18. Re2: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?
 19. MEDIA:VE Day Plans
 20. Japanese-Russian peace talks
 21. Russia Enters the Pacific
 22. [INF] USAAF 11 MAR 45
 23. [INF] USAAF 12 MAR 45
 24. [INF] 13 MAR 45
 25. USSR in the Pacific Theater
 26. INF: USN Chronology 02-26-95
 27. INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-MAR-1945

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:50:36 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Aggressive Warfare

William Lippert wrote:

> Anyway, aggressive warfare is rather subjective in its definition.
Well, goodness, yes.  I'd have said it's subjective *by* definition. But
presumably there's some specific legalese meaning to it.

> As for Doenitz, I do not believe that he was guilty of waging agressive
war.

But this is where the concept throws me -- was it not in fact his job to wage
aggressive war? He didn't start the thing, but was he not duty bound to
conduct it aggressively once it started? Again, I suspect there's some legal
meaning to this term that's escaping me -- my natural inclination is to
assume that, once war is declared, military men pursue it, uh, aggressively.

> If the
tribunal came to their decision on this basis, that he was CINC, I wonder
why they would think he was guilty of waging an aggressive war three years
after it had started.

Exactly. This goes right to the heart of my confusion, I think. It's kind of
like saying, he's an admiral and he's good at it, and for that he should go
to prison. As I said in other messages, I'm not sure I think he shouldn't
have gone to prison -- only that I have some questions about the specific
charges that were levied against him. A bit like Al Capone going to jail for
tax fraud because that was only the charge that could be proved, I guess.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:32:11 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: CARLISLE BARRACKS ONLINE

FOR WARREN THOMPSON
I have not used these addresses for awhile, but you might try:
  vetochd@carlisle-emh2.army.mil  (Reference Branch)
If this doesn't work, try using just info before the @
Regards, John Ausland, Oslo

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:53:21 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Last Japan appendix-- the battlewagon war

Dear Mr. Yaklich,


I found your posts very interesting, please keep typing.   Here is my two
cents...



Snip...Snip...Snip
>On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Mike Yaklich wrote:
>
>         Appendix 3: The Last Battlewagon War
>




> powerful WEST VIRGINIA, MARYLAND, and COLORADO (32,000 tons; eight 16-inch
> guns; belt armor up to 16 inches thick; 21 knots).  These latter three reveal

The thickness of the armor belt for this BB class was 13.5" of class A armor.




> B5N's still usefull, in that they could serve as either level or torpedo
> bombers.  One important Japanese technical breakthrough, just in time for the
> Pearl Harbor operation, was the development of an air-dropped torpedo that
> could run in Pearl's shallow water-- in many places no more than 35 feet
> deep-- without hitting bottom.

The Japanese did report at least two torpedoes to be no-run drops.




> Another, more primitive but nonetheless ingenious expedient was the creation
> of special armor-piercing bombs, made by essentially welding fins on to
> standard 16-inch armor-piercing naval shells, to penetrate the armored
> decks of the ships moored in "Battleship Row" at Pearl.

The fin assembly was attached to the base of the 800kg AP bomb by a
collar ring and large screws.  However, it is true that the fins were
welded on to the aft body attachment.   Although the Type 99  No.80 Mk5
bomb was created from IJN 16.1" shells it was extensively modified.  The butt
of the no.80 bomb was machine tapered and the shoulders shaved back to create a
more pointed nose.  The no.80 bomb was capable of penetrating 5.9" of
steel plate when dropped from a height of 2,500 meters.  The No.80 AP bomb
was the heaviest carrier borne AP bomb in the world from 1939-1942.





> The B5N's in the attack carried either a torpedo, the special AP bombs made
> from shells, or the Japanese Navy's standard 551-lb anti-ship bomb.

The B5N2 Kanko carried four different types of ordnance during the Pearl
Harbor raid.  The ordnance types were:

a.  Type 91  Mod.2  Torpedo
b.  Type 99  No.80  Mk5  800kg AP Bomb
c.  Type 98  No.25  250kg Land Bomb
d.  Type 99? No.6   60kg  Land Bomb



> Japanese aircraft in the attack (besides the covering Zero fighters) was the
> Aichi D3A dive-bomber.  Like the Army's later Ki-51, the D3A lived by its
> superb maneuverability-- when not carrying bombs it could dogfight with most
> contemporary American fighters-- but it lacked the Ki-51's armor protection,
> and these aircraft too would prove increasingly vulnerable when confronted

Although highly maneuverable, the Japanese never used the Aichi D3A as
CAP.



> enemy fighter defenses.  The D3A was limited as a means of shipping attack by
> its inability (normally) to carry bombs heavier than 220 lbs.  However, a
> compensating factor was the accuracy of its form of attack, honed to an art
> form by the Japanese carrier pilots through constant practice (and through
> learning to dive to lowest possible altitude before releasing their bombs and
> pulling out-- this was how they acheived hits with a reported 80% of their
> bombs dropped against British cruisers in the Indian Ocean a few months later.

The D3A usually carried a single 250kg (551 pound) bomb as you stated in your
earlier posts.  The close release doctrine of 450-600 meters  at a 55 degree
angle of attack proved to be a fatal flaw in IJN tactics.  Against heavily AA
armed vessels, numerous IJN dive bombers were destroyed attempting the ill
conceived slow and close IJN dive bombing doctrine.

As far as rating IJN dive bombing accuracy, it varied widely.  Accuracy
is closely tied to AAA fire from defending warships.  Under moderately heavy
AAA fire at Pearl Harbor, IJN dive bomber s score only 5 bomb hits out of
23 bombs dropped on the U.S.S. Nevada.



>       It was the torpedos which proved the most devastating to the ships at
> Battleship Row.  OKLAHOMA and WEST VIRGINIA were hit by nine torpedoes each.
> CALIFORNIA-- its watertight doors below deck open for a routine inspection at
> the time of the attack-- was sunk by two.  The OKLAHOMA capsized, taking 400
> men down with it.

Total loos on the U.S.S. Oklahoma was actually 429 sailors and marines.




> It was hits by two of the special 16-inch shell bombs,
> however, that caused the spectacular explosion of the ARIZONA, which killed

Wowww...You are one of the few people to get the number of No.80 bomb hits
correct on the U.S.S. Arizona!  I just published this information in
Maru, Japan last year.






> Japanese pilots took their time-- Fuchida led his flight around for two "dry
> runs" over Battleship Row before finally dropping his bombs on the third pass.

Although smoke obsured accurate spotting of the battleships along BB row, at
least one bomb group managed to drop their bombs on their first run. The
last Soryu group led by lt. Sadoa Yamamoto had to make three runs before
releasing their 800kg bombs.  The Japanese scored six No.80 AP bomb hits on
American battleships.  The smoke effectively reduced the expected number
of bomb hits on the USN battleships by approx. 50%.




> The accuracy of the attacks, especially from the torpedo bombers (who also put
> several torpedoes into the target ship UTAH, an old battleship, in a case of

Two torpedoes struck the Utah.  The Utah and the U.S.S. Helena were
hit at the same time by Soryu torpedo bombers.   Both the Utah and the
Helena were the first two ships torpedoed during the Pearl Harbor attack.





>the ships of "Force Z" were set upon by a strong force of Japanese Navy
> G3M land-based two-engined bombers.  Despite the heavy antiaircraft armament

There also G4M Twin engined bombers carrying the new Type 91 Mod2 aerial
torpedo.  The G3M aircraft carried the older Type 91 torpedoes, No.25
250kg bombs, and the No.50 500kg SAP bombs.  Three IJN aircraft were shot
down.





> ships were sunk, the PRINCE OF WALES taking five torpedoes and one bomb, the
> REPULSE hit by four torpedoes and a bomb.  Of about 3,000 crewmen on the two

Both BB's were hit with more torpedoes.  I believe that there were 10+(?)
torpedo hits and one 250kg bomb hit on the Repulse and 7(?) torpedo hits
and one 500kg bomb hit on the Prince of Whales.


Good night all...

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 04:00:14 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-10-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/10 Sat. Naval attack group (Rear Adm. F. B. Royal) lands Army
           troops near Zamboanga, Mindanao, P. I.; landing is
           supported by naval gunfire and Army aircraft.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:36:52 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Obersalzberg (part 1)

A month or so ago I posted several items about the buildings at Obersalzberg,
now in the hands of the US Army, which were "leftovers" from the Nazi days.
Little has changed in the last month.  The US is still going through with
its plan to close the recreation facilities there and the entire complex
is likely to be handed over to the German government in late 1995.

When I made the postings I also indicated that I had more info if anyone was
interested and since several of you expressed interest, here goes (apologies
for taking so long to get around to this).

The Obersalzberg is a hilltop area located above the village of Bertchesgaden
in Bavaria close to the Austrian border (and close, as you might guess to
the town of Salzberg).  It's a stunningly beautiful area nestled in the
Bavarian Alps.

Following his abortive plot to sieze power on 9 Nov 23, Hitler was sent
to Landsberg prison, and upon his release, sought refuge in the quiet
surroundings of Bertchesgaden.  He rented a small house on the Obersalberg,
winning friends and benefactors in the local area.  While living there
he wrote a major portion of "Mein Kampf".

By 1928 royalties from his book permitted Hitler to purchase a house on
the Obersalzberg which he named the "Berghof", which roughly translated
means mountain cottage.  Despite major rennovations and additions in the
ensuring years, the name "Berghof" was kept, to portray an image of
a modest dwelling for Germany's leader.  As we'll see, it was anything
but.

The transformation of the Obersalzberg area from a quiet mountain hideaway
to a major complex for the Nazi elite began in earnest in 1933.  Rudolf
Hess began negotiations with local homeowners and farmers to obtain more
land for the Nazi area.  With Hitler's rise to power more and more
people were showing up in the area to see where the Fuehrer lived and it
was obvious that something had to be done to bring some sort of order to
what was fast becoming total chaos.

Although Hess had started the negotiations, it was Martin Bormann who
took over the process soon after and began what could best be termed a
personal crusade to completely rework the entire Obersalzberg area.
In 1936 and 37, he negotiated the "purchase" of 27 farms, and various
boarding houses and private homes to bring a full 10 square Km area
under his control.  Owners were given little, if any, choice to sell --
a great deal of pressure was placed on those who balked -- and soon
a seven foot high, 27 km long fence enclosed the "fuhrer area".  Large
barracks were erected to accommodate the many laborers that would be
needed for the various construction projects.  The road from
Berchtesgaden was widened and a new road from Oberau, another neighboring
town, was built.

Work began on enlarging the Berghof. Quoting from "After the Battle, no 9",
The Berghof received another floor, and wide steps were constructed leading
up to the front of the building.  A 'gothic' type hall with heavy
marble pillars formed the lobby to the famous conference foom, where the
large picture window gave a gbeautiful view of the Untersalzberg mountain.
In addition the ground floor contained the hall, vestibule, dining room,
guard room, a day room for the staff, a large kitchen, two rooms for
adjutants, and an outdoor terrace.  Hitler's living room, bedroom,
study and rooms for his permanent bodyguard occupied the first floor
with the second floor for more personal guests.  The garage was situated
immediately beneath the picture window -- when this was lowered, visitors
have recorded that petrol fumes could be smelt in the conference room.
This room was also used for film shows.  Store room, the heating system
and bowling alley were all below ground.  It was in these store rooms
that Hitler kept the many gifts he received.  Reconstructions and alterations
to the Berghof continued even during the latter years of the war, when
building materials were in short supply."

Bormann had a house built for himself that was even more grandiose than
Hitler's.  The simple wood exterior belied an extravagant interior which
included every modern amenity and luxury.

The Platterhof was a modest hotel/boarding house that had originally
opened in 1877.  Bormann had it reconstructed, beginning in 1938 to
accommodate the many visitors who daily came to see the fuehrer (this
number had grown to a high as 5000 each day), obviously a number far
in excess of what any hotel could accomodate.  Nontheless, construction
on the Platterhof under the guise of offering a room for the common
citizen for 1 Reichsmark per night.  What, in fact, was being built
was another lavish facility for the use of Nazi officials.

Members of the "inner circle" also had homes built on the Obersalzberg
and, to house support activities, Bormann also had built barracks,
and underground rifle and pistol range, garages, a communications
center and various other facilities.

Time to get to work. . .stay tuned for the next installment.

                      Doug Donnell

Ruppertsweiler, Germany
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:02:51 +0100
From:    Robert Martensson <Robert.Martensson@NEXUS.SE>
Subject: WEAP: What do they cost

Hello Folks

  I am a Swede with a hopeless love for the most boring parts of WW2 -
That is War Economics! As it is a rather obscure subject I have some trouble
to find sources among the more readily available litterature (it's easy to find
information about how many B24 that were produced with tail-fin type E, and
if the Mustangs of the 234:th squadron had yellow markings on the propeller,
but try to find out how much a Mustang did cost, or how many man hours they
took to build...). Thus I now stand forth and give you some of my most boring
questions :-)

What was the cost per airframe of the more common aircraft of WW2?
What was the development cost of the models?
How many man hours did it take to build them?

The same questions may of course be put concerning tanks, guns, ships etc.

If anybody out there sits on information like that, or has any good pointers,
I would be very grateful if he/she would share them with me.

        Thanks in advance
        Robert Maartensson, Uppsala, Sweden
        robert@nexus.se

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 07:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Draft US Nurses

In the 50YA post for 7 Mar 45, John Davis reported that a bill to draft all
nurses aged 20 through 44 had passed the US House of Representatives.
Off-line, I asked John if this bill had passed the Senate and he was not
sure.  So I asked one of the feminists here at work and she checked AMERICAN
WOMEN'S HISTORY by Doris Weatherford and found the following:

1. The Nurses Selective Service Act passed the House of Representatives in
early Mar 45 by a vote of 347-42.

2. In early Apr 45, the bill was reported out favorable by the US Senate
Military Affairs Committee.  The Senate bill included an amendment to
strike the exemption for married women which was in the House bill.

3. VE-Day was in May and the demand for nurses decreased and the bill died.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 07:32:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Airshow Sked

          NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1995
                           ISSUE 4, MARCH 10, 1995

The following is the combined schedules for the North American military
aerobatic teams for the 1995 show season and includes schedules for shows
in Canada and the United States.

This list is sorted by country and Province and State.  The four teams
covered in this post are:

  Canadian Armed Forces Snowbirds
  U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds
  U.S. Army Golden Knights
  U.S. Navy Blue Angels

Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated.  Please e-mail them
to me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com.

REASON FOR REISSUE:  Bart (Prowler633@aol.com) reports the following changes
to the schedules.  He asks that I "tell everyone that you found this schedule
on America Online in the Aviation Forum."

 1. The Snowbirds show at Port Hardy, BC on 1 May is cancelled
 2. The Snowbirds show at Ottawa, Ont on 8 May is cancelled.
 3. The Snowbirds show at Riviere du Loup, Que is cancelled.
 4. The Snowbirds show at Juneau, Alaska has been extended to 2 days.
 5. There is an UNCONFIRMED report that the Blue Angels will be appearing at
    McConnell AFB, Kansas.
 6. Change the date for the show at Benton Harbor, Michigan.
 7. Add a show at Duluth, Minnesota.
 8. Add a show at Mankato, Minnesota.
 9. Add one date to the Columbia, Missouri show.
10. Change the date for the Bozeman, Montana show.
11. Cancel the Plattsburgh AFB, New York show.
12. Add a show at Salisbury, North Carolina.
13. Cancel the show at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
14. Cancel the show at Sheppard AFB, Texas
15. There is an UNCONFIRMED report that the Blue Angels will be appearing
    at Bergstrom AFB, Texas.
16. Add a show at Hill AFB, Utah.



I. CANADA
---------

ALBERTA
-------
Calgary: Snowbirds, Jul 15 and 16
Grande Prairie: Snowbirds, Aug 7
Red Deer: Snowbirds, Aug 5 and 6
Slave Lake: Snowbirds, Jul 17

BRITISH COLUMBIA
----------------
Abbotsford: Snowbirds, Aug 11 thru 13
Cranbrook: Snowbirds, Jul 27
Kamloops: Snowbirds, Aug 9
Kelowna: Snowbirds, May 13 and 14
Penticton: Snowbirds, May 3
Prince George: Snowbirds, Jul 22 and 23
Prince Rupert: Snowbirds, Jul 19
Victoria: Snowbirds, Jul 29 and 30

MANITOBA
--------
Brandon: Snowbirds, May 5
Grand Beach: Snowbirds, Jul 5
Portage la Prairie: Sep 9 and 10

NEW BRUNSWICK
-------------
St John: Snowbirds, May 30
Shediac: Snowbirds, Jun 29

NEWFOUNDLAND
------------
CFB Gander: Snowbirds, Jun 18
CFB Goose Bay: Snowbirds, Jun 16

NORTHWEST TERRITORIES
---------------------
Hay River: Snowbirds, Apr 27

NOVA SCOTIA
-----------
CFB Shearwater: Snowbirds, Aug 26 and 27
Yarmouth: Snowbirds, Aug 29

ONTARIO
-------
Chapleau: Snowbirds, May 22
CFB Borden: Snowbirds, Jul 2 and 3
Grand Bend: Snowbirds, Jun 8
Hamilton: Thunderbirds, Jun 17 and 18
Leamington: Snowbirds, Jun 10
London: Snowbirds, Jun 3 and 4
Ottawa: Snowbirds, May 7, Jun 24 and 25 and Jul 1
Sault St. Marie: Snowbirds, May 20 and 21
Thunder Bay: Snowbirds, Sep 6
Toronto: Snowbirds, Sep 2 thru 4
Windsor: Snowbirds, Jun 11

PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND
--------------------
Summerside: Snowbirds, Jun 20

QUEBEC
------
Bromont: Snowbirds, Jun 6
Charlevoix: Snowbirds, Jun 27
La Tuque: Snowbirds, Aug 23
Mirabel: Snowbirds, May 27 and 28
Mont Laurier: Snowbirds, Jun 1
Quebec City: Snowbirds, Aug 19 and 20
Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, Jun 22

SASKATCHEWAN
------------
CFB Moose Jaw:
  Jul 8 and 9: Blue Angels and Snowbirds
  Oct 14: Snowbirds
Lloydminster: Snowbirds, May 11
Prince Albert: Snowbirds, Aug 2

YUKON TERRITORY
---------------
Whitehorse: Snowbirds, Jul 25



II. UNITED STATES
-----------------

ALABAMA
-------

ALASKA
------
Juneau: Snowbirds, Apr 29 and 30

ARIZONA
-------
Luke AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 8
MCAS Yuma: Golden Knights, Feb 25
Mesa: Blue Angels, Mar 25 and 26
Page: Snowbirds, Oct 7 and 8

ARKANSAS
--------
Fort Smith: Blue Angels, May 20 and 21 and Golden Knights, May 20

CALIFORNIA
----------
Fresno: Golden Knights, Sep 23 and 24
March AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 14 and 15
MCAS El Toro: Blue Angels, Apr 28 thru 30
NAF El Centro: Blue Angels, Mar 18
NAS LeMoore: Blue Angels, May 6 and 7
NAS Miramar: Blue Angels, Aug 25 thru 27
NAWS Point Mugu: Snowbirds, Sep 23 and 24
Redding: Blue Angels, Jul 1 and 2
Salinas: Thunderbirds, Sep 30 and Oct 1
San Francisco: Blue Angels, Oct 7 and 8
Travis AFB: Golden Knights, Oct 7
Vandenburg AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 9
Van Nuys: Golden Knights, Jul 15 and 16

COLORADO
--------
Durango: Thunderbirds, Jun 4
Grand Junction: Snowbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 27
Loveland: Thunderbirds, Apr 22 and 23
Peterson AFB: Snowbirds, Sep 20
USAF Academy: Thunderbirds, May 31

CONNECTICUT
-----------

DELAWARE
--------

FLORIDA
-------
Daytona Beach: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Nov 4 and 5
Eglin AFB; Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 1
Fort Lauderdale: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 6 and 7
Homestead AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Nov 11 and 12
MacDill AFB: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Apr 22 and 23
NAS Cecil Field: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Nov 4 and 5
NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, Nov 10 and 11
Patrick AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 2
Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, Jul 22
Sanford: Blue Angels, Apr 1 and 2

GEORGIA
-------
Athens: Golden Knights, Sep 30

HAWAII
------
NAS Barbers Point: Blue Angels, Sep 2 and 3
Schofield Barracks: Golden Knights, Aug 31 thru Sep 4

IDAHO
-----

ILLINOIS
--------
Chicago: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 5 and 6
Scott AFB: Thunderbirds, Jul 29 and 30
Springfield: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 15 and 16

INDIANA
-------
Evansville: Golden Knights, Aug 28
North Webster: Golden Knights, Jun 17 thru 19

IOWA
----
Davenport: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jun 24 and 25
Dubuque: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 12 and 13

KANSAS
------
Liberal: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 23 and 24
McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, Jun 24 to 25  (unconfirmed)

KENTUCKY
--------
Louisville: Golden Knights, Sep 2 thru 4

LOUISIANA
---------
Alexandira: Blue Angels, Sep 30 and Oct 1
Barksdale AFB: Golden Knights, Apr 9
Monroe: Golden Knights, Apr 23
NAS New Orleans: Thunderbirds, Oct 28 and 29

MAINE
-----
NAS Brunswick: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 22 and 23

MARYLAND
--------
Andrews AFB: Thunderbirds, May 20 and 21 and Golden Knights, May 19 to 21
Fort Meade: Golden Knights, May 18
Frederick: Thunderbirds, Aug 26 and 27
NAS Patuxent River: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, May 27
US Naval Academny, Anapolis: Blue Angels, May 29 and 31

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
Andover: Golden Knights, May 29
Hanscom AFB: Thunderbirds, Jun 10 and 11

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, Jul 2 thru 4
Benton Harbor: Golden Knights, May 7
Detroit: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Jun 3 and 4
Grand Rapids: Golden Knights, Jun 20
Kalmazoo: Golden Knights, Jun 10 and 11

MINNESOTA
---------
Duluth: Snowbirds, May 9
Mankato: Snowbirds, May 25

MISSISSIPPI
-----------
Keesler AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 25
NAS Meridian: Blue Angels, May 13 and 14

MISSOURI
--------
Columbia: Golden Knights (May 26-28) and Thunderbirds (May 27 and 28)
Kansas City: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Jul 29 and 30
Whiteman AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jun 14

MONTANA
-------
Bozeman: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 20
Malmstrom AFB: Golden Knights, Jul 8

NEBRASKA
--------
Offutt AFB: Thunderbirds, Sep 3 and 4

NEVADA
------
NAS Fallon: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Oct 14
Reno: Snowbirds, Sep 15 thru 17

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------

NEW JERSEY
----------

NEW MEXICO
----------
Holloman AFB: Thunderbirds, Jun 3
Roswell: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 16 and 17

NEW YORK
--------
Niagara Falls: Golden Knights, Jun 24 and 25
White Lake: Golden Knights, Jul 8 thru 10

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Ft Bragg: Golden Knights, Jul 4
MCAS Cherry Point: Blue Angels, Apr 8 and 9
Salisbury: Golden Knights, May 13 and 14

NORTH DAKOTA
------------
Fargo: Golden Knights, Aug 12 and 13
Grand Forks AFB: Thunderbirds, Jul 8
Minot AFB: Golden Knights, Jul 30

OHIO
----
Columbus: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 5 and 6
Dayton: Golden Knights, Jul 22 and 23
Toledo: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 9 and 10

OKLAHOMA
--------
Oklahoma City: Blue Angels, Jun 17 and 18

OREGON
------
Hillsboro: Blue Angels, Jul 15 and 16
Medford: Golden Knights, Aug 26 and 27

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Reading: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 19 and 20

RHODE ISLAND
------------
North Kingston: Blue Angels, Jun 10 and 11

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
Charleston AFB: Thunderbirds, Oct 8
Myrtle Beach: Golden Knights, Jun 3 and 4

SOUTH DAKOTA
------------
Ellsworth AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 9

TENNESSEE
---------
Gray: Golden Knights, Aug 21 thru 24
Knoxville: Golden Knights, Apr 29 and 30
McGhee Tyson ANGB: Thunderbirds, Apr 29 and 30
Smyrna: Blue Angels, Sep 16 and 17

TEXAS
-----
Bergstrom AFB: Blue Angels, Oct 28 and 29 (Not confirmed)
Dallas: Golden Knights, Sep 16 and 17 and Sep 29 thru Oct 2
El Paso: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 21 and 22
Ft Worth: Golden Knights, Oct 7 and 8
Houston: Blue Angels, Oct 21 and 22
Midland: Snowbirds, Sep 30 and Oct 1
Randolph AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 13
Reese AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 14
San Angelo: Snowbirds, Oct 3

UTAH
----
Hill AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 19

VERMONT
-------

VIRGINIA
--------
Ft. Eustis: Golden Knights, Aug 4
Langley AFB: Thunderbirds, Oct 7
Manassas: Golden Knights, May 23
NAS Oceana: Blue Angels, Sep 23 and 24

WASHINGTON
----------
NAS Whidbey Island: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Sep 9 and 10

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------

WISCONSIN
---------

WYOMING
-------
Cheyenne: Thunderbirds, Jul 26

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 07:16:43 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Generals

Underrated? Probably not, but here's more of what Bradley thought of Patton:

At Namur my staff waited nervously for George to push that thin column
beyond Bad Kreuznach to the Rhine only 25 miles farther east. "Hell's
bells", one of them said, "why doesn't tyhat old boy push on?"

I trusted, however, in George's uncanny feel for the front. "Patton knows
what he's doing", I said. "Just keep your shirt on and you'll see."

Within 24 hours the 4th Armored was hit by enemy counterattack in that
sector. But because Patton had consolidated his spearhead with reinforcements
from the rear, he bounced the enemy off and went on with scarcely a shug
of his shoulders. Intelligence had not indicated the imminence of that attack
but George had anticipated it with the curious intuition that helped make him
a great field commander.

_A Soldier's Story_ by Gen. of the Army Omar Bradley  (pp519)

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 07:58:15 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: INF: _A Soldier's Story_ ... Breaching the Rhine

I had just finished my second cup of coffee when Patton telephoned from
LUCKY. "Brad, don't tell anyone but I'm across."

"Well I'll be,... you mean across the Rhine?"

"Sure am", he replied. "I sneaked a division over last night. But there
are so few krauts around there they don't know it yet. So don't make
any announcement-we'll keep it a secret until we see how it goes."

Confirmation came with the morning's briefing with Lieutenant Colonel
Richard R. Stillman, of Paris, Kentucky, Patton's young liason officer
to 12th Army group, submitted his report. Stillman showed the delight
Third Army felt in having slipped quietly across the Rhine under cover
of darkness while Monty flexed his muscles ostentatiously farther north.
With a smiling allusion to Monty's elaborate preparations, Stillman made
his report, "Without benefit of aerial bombing, ground smoke, artillery
preparation, and airborne assistance, the Third Army at 2200 hours,
Thursday evening, March 22, crossed the Rhine River." With the aid of
rafts and engineer assault boats, the 5th Infantry Division had ferried
across from the small farming village of Oppenheim to the opposite shore.
In this first assault crossing of that river bastion by a modern army,
the division suffered a total of 34 dead and wounded.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:10:40 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japan biblio

        I remembered one more source too important not to mention:

Matome Ugaki, "Fading Victory"

also, I got the description of the action that won Neal Kearby the
Congressional Medal of Honor from the 1944 "Official Guide to the Army Air
Force," a gem I picked up for a quarter at a used book sale when I was a kid
and have cherished ever since (its great, planes like the B-29 and P-61 are
still "restricted" and there's not even a mention of the P-59; on the chart
giving specs and performance you get entries for the B-29 like "effective
speed" or "heavy armor and armament" instead of the actual speed, armament,
etc).

        Since I'm on-line, and since I talked so much about fighter aces of
both sides, my vote for one of the most unusual is Paul Bruneau of the US Navy.
He was credited with five victories while flying a multi-engined patrol bomber
(in aircraft with crews of more than one the pilot usually got credit for any
"kills" registered by the plane).  On one of his missions Bruneau's aircraft
was attacking a merchantman and two small escorts about 15 miles outside of
Truk, when he found his own plane the target of four Zeros.  Bruneau's crew
shot down one of the Zeros and got back safely, although with one crew member
badly wounded.
        Another Pacific ace deserving of mention is Bob Hansen of the Marine
Corps.  Flying a Corsair in the Solomons, Hansen shot down 25 Japanese planes,
including 20 in six consecutive missions (on one of those missions he took on
four Zeros single-handed over New Britain and downed all four).  However,
Hansen lost his life on a mission over Rabaul in Feb '44.
        Also, in terms of outstanding pairs, I should mention "Pappy" Boyington
and his wingman Bob McClurg, an ace with seven victories.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 11:37:46 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg (part 1)

COL Donnell, Doug <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL> writes:
> ... Store room, the heating system
> and bowling alley were all below ground.  It was in these store rooms
> that Hitler kept the many gifts he received.

        Can anyone picture Hitler bowling and not find the image ludicrous?
Try to conjure an image of a chubby Goring wearing a bowling shirt and ill-
fitting bowling shoes cursing as he bowls a field goal when he tried to
take out the 7 and 10 pins split.   This could be a scene from a Monty
Python skit!  :-)
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Oh, man, don't hit me with those negative waves so early in the morning.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:51:01 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Kamikazes

Jorge Balam asked:

> Does anybody know which aircrafts were chosen for the Kamikazes pilots?
> Is there a source where I can find how many Kamikazes were in the WWII?

Many types were used, including A6M "Zero", D3A "Val", "Kikka", etc
(sorry, sources are at home, and I'm working from memory). There were
also some aircraft designed specifically for Kamikaze missions,
including the "Ohka" bomb.
Don't forget also the midget submarines....

About sources, I have "Divine Thunder - The life and death of the Kamikazes",
(Don't remember the author). It is an excellent book which analizes the
origin of the Kamikaze missions, and also describes most of the aircraft
and submarines used for suicide missions. Drawings and B/W photos are also
included. I recommend you to have a look at this book.

> Which target they preferred?, A diary of their missions etc?....

Mainly aircraft carriers. BBs, CAs, CLs, DDs, and even PT boats were also
attacked, but they preferred to plunge into the carrier decks.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 11:53:04 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: What do they cost

Robert Martensson <Robert.Martensson@NEXUS.SE> writes:
> What was the cost per airframe of the more common aircraft of WW2?
> What was the development cost of the models?
> How many man hours did it take to build them?
>
> The same questions may of course be put concerning tanks, guns, ships etc.

There is a book by Correlli Barnett, a British military historian, entitled
in the US, "The Audit of War".  This book deals with the economic aspects of
WWII.  One example cited in a review of this book is that it took 13,000
man-hours to build a Spitfire Mark V, whereas the Germans could build in
Bf-109G in just 4000 man-hours.

>From June, 1994, a fellow list-member, William Huber
<whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>, posted these facts:

> While looking in _Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer_ by Werner Oswald I came
> across a table that is germane to discussions earlier on costs of
> panzers to build.  I'll summarize it here for your interest.
>
> Preise deutscher Panzerfahrzeuge  - Prices of German Armored Vehicles
> (ohne Waffen und Funkausruestung) (without weapons and radio gear)
>
> Vierrad-Panzer-Spaehwagen (4 wheel armor recce)   Reich Marks 20,000
> Mittl. Halbketten-Schutzenpzw. (halftrack)               RM   23,000
> Panzer II                                                RM   50,000
> Achtrad-Panzer-Spaehwagen (8 wheel armor recce)          RM   53,000
> Geschuetzwagen 38(t)  (Czechoslovak mfg - Marder III)    RM   53,000
> Sturmgeschuetz III (Assault Gun)                         RM   85,000
> Panzer III                                               RM  100,000
> Panzer IV                                                RM  110,000
> Panzer V (Panther)                                       RM  120,000
> Panzer VI (Tiger 1)                                      RM  260,000
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
He may be nuts, but he's not crazy enough to put Shermans up against Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 12:49:40 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New User Intro

        To Joseph Feld:
        The Soviet Union declared war on Japan (or, to be specific, broadcast
its declaration of war) and commenced military operations in the early hours of
August 9th, 1945, the same day the second atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.
In fact, the Soviets were right on schedule-- Stalin had promised (at the Yalta
Conference) to commence hostilities with Japan within three months of the
surrender of Germany (generally accepted as May 8, 1945).  Prior to the Soviet
declaration there was in existence a mutual non-aggression pact with the
Japanese which both sides basically honored, as it had advantages for both
parties.  Thus Lend-Lease goods carried to Siberian Pacific ports in ships
flying the Soviet flag were not attacked as they passed through Japanese
controlled waters, while the Japanese tried to use the USSR as intermediary in
tentative peace negotiations with the west (finding the Russians increasingly
cool to these overtures after Yalta).

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

PS  Japan's neutrality in regards to the USSR proved extremely helpful in the
winter of 1941-42, as Stalin was able to withdraw huge reserves of men, planes,
tanks, etc from the far east to use against the Germans in front of Moscow.
Neither side really trusted the other in this regard, though.  The Soviets only
undertook the wholesale transfers after their intelligence (primarily the Sorge
organization) revealed the Japanese preoccupation with their southern offensive
against the western Allies, while the Japanese in mid-1942 sent the first and
only "Mechanized Army" (roughly equivalent to a German panzer corps) they
created during the war to the Russian frontier in Manchuria, and in September
refused to withdraw air units from Manchuria to use on Guadalcanal, citing the
Soviet danger.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:04:00 EST
From:    Russell Folsom <rfolsom@CCMPO-B.DRAPER.COM>
Subject: Re: Generals

Mentioning General Anders and Monte Cassino, it occurs to me that another
General of that Campaign - Lucien Truscott, has also gotten short shrift when it
comes to accolades. He was in Command of the 3rd Infantry from N.Africa thru
Sicily and the Peninsula Campaign. I don't know many details about him, but I do
remember something written by Ernie Pyle about a speech he gave to his troops on
Memorial Day 1944 - Instead of a rousing "fight for flag and glory" type speech
to the assembled ranks, The General turned to face row upon row of freshly dug
graves from the recent Anzio battles and simply said: "I'm sorry boys..."


Russ Folsom
<rfolsom@draper.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:28:00 -0500
From:    Belenus the SUN God <root@STD.COM>
Subject: Re: [      WEAP: What do they cost ]: Outbound mail text body lost

We're sorry, but due to a disk error on the outbound
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             WEAP: What do they cost
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please contact postmaster@world.std.com.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:30:39 -0500
From:    Belenus the SUN God <root@STD.COM>
Subject: Re: [      Airshow Sked ]: Outbound mail text body lost

We're sorry, but due to a disk error on the outbound
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Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:10:16 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: Re2: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Alex Bielakowski wrote:
>
> Kelvin,
>      Firstly, I did not mean to insult the Bulgarians or to claim that
> they were no better than the Germans in their conduct during the war.
> I wished to point out that if the Poles, who fought the Germans and
> Russians and who did not "officially" collaborate (I don't want to start
> that arguement again) can be accused of playing a part in the Holocaust,
> then nobody else in Europe can claim to be innocent on that issue
> either.  I realize that the Bulgarians, like the Finns, were forced to
> ally themselves with the Germans in order to protect themselves from
> the Russians.  I also agree that the Russians were only considered the
> ally of the Western powers, because the West needed the Russians.
> The Allied nations of Eastern Europe, however, never considerd the
> Russians their ally.  I can understand your having greater resentment
> toward the Russians than the Finns or Bulgarians.  After all, both the
> Finns and Bulgarians had the choice of being allied with the world's
> greatest mass-murderer (Stalin) or the world's second greatest mass-
> murderer (Hitler).  It boggles the mind, doesn't it?
>
> Alex Bielakowski
>
        I appreciate your reply.  I have been thinking about my previous
post and have come to the conclusion that I have more resentment against
the Russians and the French collaborators simply because they were at
some point our allies.  I don't know if others would agree with this line
of thinking but it is never the less how I feel.  Perhaps it is simply
that not enough attention is paid to their misdeeds as Germany bears the
brunt of guilt for all Europe.  The actions of the French I think show the
danger of the Germans not remembering their guilt.  The vast majority of
the French populace collaborated in some manner yet they have
conveniently ignored any guilt for their actions.  Do you or anyone on
the list know of any good resources to research the Vichy collaboration
as well as that of occupied France.  I would like to get a clear picture
of the situation.  I once read that if all the Frenchmen who later on
claimed to be part of the resistance had actually participated Normandy
would not have been necessary.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:16:21 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: New User Intro

On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Joseph Feld wrote:

> Since I have been "lurking" about this discussion for several days I
> suppose this is a little late for a true intro.  But, truth to tell, being
> just an amateur historian I have found myself rather intimidated by the
> level of information being passed around this group.  I'm afraid my
> contributions to this area will be mainly in the form of questions.
>
> Huge thanks to Mike Yaklich.  Mike, your "Tactical Afterthoughts on Japan"
> and other posts have been both entertaining and educational.
>
> Well, I suppose I should ask my first question.  Does anyone know exactly
> when in 1945 the Soviet Union offically entered the war in the Pacific?
> And, why did it take them so long to declare war against Japan?
>
> Thanks to everyone in this group for some fascinating reading.
>
> Joseph Feld
> joefeld@mail.ic.net
> Ferndale, MI
>
        Officially it was Aug. 9.   How very convenient don't you think.
As for the reasons for their belated entry I believe they had agreed to
join the war after Germany was defeated.  It was accepted that no
invasion of Japan could go forward without the Russians engaging the
Japanese in Manchuria, the Chinese certainly weren't going to do it.  The
Russians had signed a similar nonagression pact with Japan as they had
with Germany and without a Japanese invasion there would be no Russian
involvement in Asia until the European situation was finished.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:39:26 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Kamikazes

        Virtually any type of plane that would fly, but especially older combat
types now relegated to training or other second-line roles, were employed in
the kamikaze attacks.  Even planes like the Mitsubishi K3M Navy trainer were
pressed into the role.  There were also at least two types of purpose-built
kamikaze planes, the Navy's rocket-powered Okha piloted glider bomb (the engine
was only switched on for the last 30 seconds of the one-way trip) and the
Army's propellor-driven Ki-115 Tsurugi (some of which also had rocket boosters
attached to the wings for the final dive).  The latter was designed, basically,
to be cheap and easy to build since it was basically a disposable weapons
system.
        A total of about 2,000 kamikaze aircraft were actually employed on
suicide missions during the war.  The first organized attack was by four Army
Ki-45 two-engined fighter planes off the north coast of New Guinea, May 27,
1944, but the first large-scale use of kamikazes came during the Phillipines
campaign, starting at the end of October during the last stage of the naval
battle of Leyte Gulf.  The biggest kamikaze campaign of the war was Operation
Ten-Go, against the Allied invasion fleet off Okinawa, April-June 1945.  On the
first day of this operation, April 6, the Japanese employed 700 aircraft, and
there were at least ten more assaults involving 50-300 kamikazes before June
22nd.  The Japanese would have used more than 5,000 kamikaze aircraft to oppose
an invasion of their home islands (almost 4,900 planes earmarked for suicide
attacks were already available in August 1945).  Operation Ten-Go resulted in
the sinking of 34 Allied ships, and damaged over 300 more.  Pilots in this
operation were instructed (in the first attack, anyway) to make loaded
transports their priority targets, but the destroyers on picket duty were the
ships that actually suffered the worst.
        A couple books I know of which deal specifically with this subject are
Edwin Hoyt, "Kamikazes" (which I haven't read but have seen referenced) and
A.J. Barker, "Suicide Weapon."  There is also here at Pitt in the main library
a book by a man trained as a kamikaze pilot who survived the war, but the name
escapes me at the moment and I couldn't pull it up on my computer using keyword
search.  I'll try to check it out next time I'm down there.

        Hope this helps

        Regards

        Mike yaklich


------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 16:46:28 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Last Japan appendix-- the battlewagon war

        I knew I was drifting into a minefield and inviting a few salvos from
the Hawaii contingent when I started talking about Pearl Harbor.  Thank you to
John DeVirgilio for the illuminating additional details.  A few comments on
your comments:
        1. I caught myself in the embarrassing error regarding the D3A's normal
bomb load (rookie mistake) and corrected it in my next post.  Also, I never
meant to imply that the D3A was employed on CAP duties when I said it could
dogfight with Allied fighters-- only to point out that after losing its bomb
load this aircraft eluded faster, better-armed enemy aircraft on a number of
occasions in 1942, due to its maneuverability (and, no doubt, pilots who knew
how to take advantage of that).  Now that you mention it though, the much less
capable Mitsubishi F1M observer floatplane WAS used as a surrogate fighter for
defensive patrols on occassion.
        2. I found your comments on Japanese divebomber tactics particularly
interesting.  That's one of several points you made that I'd be interested in
getting a source for (so I can read more myself).  I used the example of the
action against the British cruisers in the Indian Ocean because, if the
Japanese reports were correct, it seemed to me to be an exceptional case of
dive-bombing accuracy.  I certainly would have expected the norm to be a far
lower percentage, especially in shipping attack, regardless of how well the
pilots were trained.  I'm in total agreement about the effects of antiaircraft
fire on bombing accuracy (a no-brainer connection, I guess), but that brings up
another question.  Doesn't it strike you as also a bit exceptional that the
aircraft which sank the REPULSE and PRINCE OF WALES scored such a high
percentage of torpedo hits yet lost only three planes (I mentioned that figure
in my post, too) against moving targets, especially given the heavy AA armament
of the PRINCE OF WALES (particularly against close-in attack, which it seems
would have had to be the case to score so many hits, given, for example, the
difficulty the British usually experienced in scoring torpedo hits against
Italian warships in the Mediterranean).
        3.  Speaking of the REPULSE etc, could I ask where you got your numbers
for the number of hits scored?  I'm not disputing your post at all-- quite the
contrary, I'd like to read a more up-to-date account which might be more
accurate.  I think I took those numbers for torpedo hits from Toland's "Rising
Sun" because I had it handy, but I don't recall reading higher numbers in other
(admittedly older) sources like Roskill (of course, my memory plays tricks at
times-- I'll admit I was too lazy to run down to the main campus library and
double-check "The War At Sea.")
        4.  Thanks for the additional details on the No.80 bomb.  I'd love to
take a bow for getting the part about the ARIZONA right, but---
I said I used this list as one of my sources.  Well, the topic of those AP
shells-cum-bombs came up, I believe about a month before you signed on, and I
got the info from a post by Jim Adams so I might have been quoting you in the
first place.  BTW, I'd love to have you drop me a line about your own
publications, it seems your expertise on Japanese naval aircraft armament is
considerable.
        5.  Lastly, on an unrelated subject, in an earlier message to me you
mentioned a Zero pilots' association.  Would you know if a similar organization
exists for Japanese Army fighter pilots (Hayabusa pilots assoc?), or, frankly,
any good English-language source on Japanese Army fighter aces?  This is a
topic which represents a real gap in my knowledge of the Japanese air effort.
Any help would be appreciated, most of what I have is from correllating
scattered individual references on the subject.

        I would also like to ask if any of the naval experts out there could
tell me a little more about shipborne radar in the Japanese Navy-- particularly
about when (and on what ships) it was deployed operationally.  I have searched
in vain for the one specific reference I remember reading on this topic.

        Finally, John, my final exam on Pearl Harbor came back with a lot of
red ink on it, so I was wondering....did I pass?

        Regards (and thanks for the comments, critical and otherwise)

        Mike Yaklich



------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 16:27:16 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:VE Day Plans

>From the DoD Newswire 9 March 1995

:VE DAY TO BRING 50 LEADERS TO LONDON

    LONDON, March 8 - The biggest assembly of heads of state
and government to come to London since Queen Elizabeth's 1953
coronation will mark the 50th anniversary of the end of World War Two
in Europe in May.
     Buckingham Palace announced on Wednesday that leaders from more
than 50 countries, including German Chancellor Hemlut Kohl, will
attend the Victory in Europe commemorations from May 6-8. Japan, the
other defeated World War Two power, will be represented by its
ambassador.
     The Prince and Princess of Wales, who separated two years ago,
are to make a rare appearance together in public for the ceremonies.
The Duchess of York, who separated from Prince Andrew in 1992, will
not be taking part.
     The Queen, Prince Philip and Prince Charles are to attend a joint
session of the two houses of parliament on May 5.
     The first major set-piece event on May 6 will be a dinner at the
ornate Guildhall for visiting heads of state. There will also be a
memorial service at St Paul's Cathedral on May 7.

======


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:40:45 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Japanese-Russian peace talks

Mike Yaklich wrote the following:
>Thus Lend-Lease goods carried to Siberian Pacific ports in ships
>flying the Soviet flag were not attacked as they passed through Japanese
>controlled waters, while the Japanese tried to use the USSR as intermediary in
>tentative peace negotiations with the west (finding the Russians increasingly
>cool to these overtures after Yalta).

I'm curious, just how serious were the Japanese in conducting these
negotiations, and did either the British or the Americans participate
actively?

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 18:05:15 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Russia Enters the Pacific

On 3/10/95, Kelvin Brent Luther wrote the following:
>It was accepted that no invasion of Japan could go forward without the
>Russians >engaging the Japanese in Manchuria, the Chinese certainly weren't
>going to do it.

With so little time left in the war, did the Soviet Union actually engage
in any major action against Japan?  And, how exectly did they come into
possesion of the Kurile Islands?

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:41:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 11 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 11 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s knock
out 1 bridge and hit numerous boxcars at Kep and near Don Met. In China, 5
B-24s over the S China Sea and Gulf of Tonkin claim 1 freighter sunk and
another damaged; 10 P-40s and P-51s blast locomotives on the Tsinpu railroad
and demolish 3 villages E of Lohochai; the 1st Combat Cargo Group, 1st Combat
Cargo Group, based at Hsinching with C-47s, sends a detachment to operate
from Liangshan.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 14 B-25s pound stores,
troops, vehicles, and ammunition dumps at Konghsa, Kwai-Kong, Man Kat, and
Mong Yai; 4 P-38s knock out a bridge at Mong Tong; 8 P-47s hit troop
concentration at Kyaukme; 30+ P-47s hit targets of opportunity during a road
sweeps behind enemy lines. Transports fly 547 sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 881: 1,256 bombers and 814 fighters are dispatched to make H2X
radar attacks on U-boat yards at Kiel and Bremen and the shipyard and
refinery area at Hamburg, Germany; 1 B-17 and 4 P-51s are lost:
  1. 344 of 352 B-24s attack the Krupp Germania U-boat yard at Kiel; 2
B-24s are damaged. 232 P-47s and P-51s escort; 1 P-51 is lost.
  2. 469 of 485 B-17s hit the Wilhelmsburg oil refinery at Hamburg; 1 other
hits a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost and 41 damaged; 3 airmen are
WIA and 10 MIA. Escorting are 252 of 265 P-51s; 2 are lost.
  3. 406 of 413 B-17s hit the Deschimag U-boat yard at Bremen; 9 B-17s are
damaged. 237 of 255 P-51s escort; 1 is lost.
  4. 6 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  5. 18 P-51s escort 6 F-5s and a Spitfire on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany.
  6. 27 of 29 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 882: 11 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany
during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 696 A-20s, A-26s, and
B-26s, hit 4 airfields, 3 communications centers, 2 ammunition filling
plants, and several city areas and other casual targets; these attacks are to
obstruct air operations and supply and troop movements in general; fighters
fly patrols and armed reconnaissance, escort the bombers, support the US 9th
Infantry Division push at the Remagen bridgehead and fly cover over the area,
and support the XX Corps E of Trier and Saarburg. HQ 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group and the 160th and 161st Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadrons (with F-6s) and HQ 373d Fighter Group move from Le Culot, Belgium
to Venlo, the Netherlands; the 72d Liaison Squadron, Ninth AF (attached to
Sixth Army Group), moves from Epinal to Buhl, France with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to reconnaissance and supply missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s of the 57th
Bombardment Wing score damaging hits on a bridge and fills at San Michele
all'Adige, Volargne, and Ossenigo, and, attacking a target in Austria for
first time, bomb a bridge at Drauburg; fighters and fighter-bombers of the
XXII Tactical Air Command hit rail lines and dumps in the C Po Valley and in
the Brenner area; during the night of 10/11 Mar A-20s hit several Po River
crossings, Ghedi and Pavia Airfields, road junctions, and other targets in
the Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 11 B-24s from Guam Island again hit Susaki Airfield on
Chichi Jima Island, while 8 more during the night of 11/12 Mar, pound the
airfield individually.
    VII Fighter Command: Iwo Jima-based P-51s also bomb Susaki Airfield and
strafe Okimura and Kitamura on Haha Jima Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 41: Attacking at altitudes ranging
from 5,100 to 8,500 feet (1,554 to 2,591 m), 285 of 310 B-29s bomb the
Nagoya, Japan urban area with incendiaries during the night of 11/12 Mar
destroying 2.05 square miles (5.31 square km); 6 others hit a secondary
target; 1 B-29 is lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao
Island, B-24s bomb the Zamboanga area, Mercedes village, and San Roque
Airfield and B-25s hit Mercedes, support ground forces near Zamboanga, and in
conjunction with PT boats, hit Isabela, Barlak, Taluksangay, and a HQ N of
Zamboanga. On Luzon Island, B-24s hit the Aparri area and support ground
forces at Wawa; A-20s and fighter-bombers fly ground support missions and
attack supply dumps and numerous targets of opportunity throughout Luzon.
On Formosa, fighter-bombers hit Takao and B-24s bomb Mako.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

11/0139Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 12 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 12 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s knock out the Song Rang
bridge in French Indochina; 6 P-51s hit road communications at Hwayuan,
China and bomb a building at Ha Coi, French Indochina.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 42: 44 of 49 B-29s hit oil storage
facilities on Bukum Island, Malayan States, and Samboe and Sebarok Islands,
Sumatra; 1 other B-29 bombs Arang Hill, Malayan States; they claim 0-0-1
Japanese aircraft; results are poor.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 13 B-25s and 35 P-47s hit
troop concentrations, supplies, vehicles, and AA guns along the battlefront
and behind enemy lines; 66 P-47s hit transportation targets and a bridge
during several road sweeps in C Burma; 12 others damage a bypass bridge at
Hay-ti. Transports complete 677 sorties delivering men and supplies to
advanced bases and dropping supplies to frontline forces. The 164th Liaison
Squadron (Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, moves from Shwebo to Ondaw,
Burma with UC-64s and L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 883: 1,355 bombers and 797 fighters are dispatched to hit
marshalling yards in Germany by PFF; they claim 4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1
B-17 and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 220 of 227 B-24s and 441 of 450 B-17s attack the marshalling yard at
Swinemunde; 1 other hit the marshalling yard at Husum, a target of
opportunity; all attacks are made with H2X radar; 1 B-17 is lost, 6 B-17s are
damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 10 MIA. Escorting are 412 of 452 P-51s; they
claim 4-0-1 aircraft in the air; 4 P-51s are lost (3 pilots MIA).
  2. 154 B-24s are sent to hit the marshalling yards at Friedberg (75) and
Wetzlar (74) using Gee-H; 2 airmen are WIA.
  3. 298 B-17s are dispatched to attack the marshalling yards at Siegen (141)
and Marburg (113); 24 hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at
Frankfurt using Micro H; 4 B-17s are damaged.
  4. 226 B-17s are sent to bomb the marshalling yards at Betzdorf (116) and
Dillenburg (110) using Gee-H without loss.
  5. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th forces above are escorted by 192 P-47s and P-51s
without loss.
  6. 97 of 108 P-51s fly a sweep to support the bombers without loss.
  7. 10 P-51s escort 5 F-5s and 2 Spitfires on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany.
  8. 23 of 24 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 884: 11 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany
during the night and 4 of 10 B-24s fly a CARPETBAGGER mission.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 9th Bombardment Division A-20s,
A-26s and B-26s attack 8 marshalling yards, an ammunition-filling plant, city
areas and targets of opportunity; the attacks on the marshalling yards are
aimed at blocking troop movements by rail into the Ruhr and Remagen areas;
fighters escort the bombers, bomb special targets, fly armed reconnaissance,
cover the Remagen area, and support the US 9th Infantry Division in the
Kalenborn and Hargarten areas and the XX Corps in the Saarburg bridgehead
area. The 387th and 388th Fighter Squadrons, 365th Fighter Group, move from
Juzaine Airfield, Florennes, Belgium to Aachen, Germany with P-47s; and the
412th Fighter Squadron, 373d Fighter Group, moves from Le Culot, Belgium to
Venlo, the Netherlands with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 790 B-24s and B-17s
bomb the Floridsdorf oil refinery at Vienna and alternate targets, the
marshalling yards at Graz, Zeltweg, and Wiener-Neustadt; 98 P-38s bomb the
Knittelfeld railroad bridge (2 others hit nearby targets of opportunity) and
strafe communications in the Wiener-Neustadt-Graz-Klagenfurt areas. 12 P-38s
sweep the Zagreb, Yugoslavia area.  Bad weather forces 60 P-51s sent against
Austrian communications to abort; a supply mission to Yugoslavia and
reconnaissance operations are successful.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit 7 railroad
bridges, cutting two, and fills--severely damaging one and a train--in the
Brenner area and in NE Italy as far E as the Yugoslav border area; fighter-
bombers blast communications in N Italy, making 36 rail cuts, 19 of them on
the Brenner line; P-47s also bomb and severely damage a munitions factory NW
of Zagreb, Yugoslavia; during the night of 11/12 Mar, A-20s on intruder
missions hit Po River crossings, a sugar refinery, vehicles, and trains.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 16 P-51s bomb and strafe Okimura on Haha Jima
Island. 13 B-24s fly daylight strike against Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima
Island; during the night of 12/13 Mar, 8 B-24s hit Susaki Airfield and
Okimura. 24 B-24s from Angaur Island hit a Saragani Bay storage area on
Mindanao Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s hit Mercedes
and Malabang on Mindanao Island. On Luzon Island, other B-24s bomb Japanese
troops near Ipo, B-25s hit supply area at Bangued and troops at Pattao, A-20s
and fighter-bombers fly ground forces support missions. fighter-bombers also
bomb Calallo Island. On Formosa B-24s, with P-38 support bomb Takao and
Tainan and P-51s also hit Tainan and bomb Jitsugetsu power plants. The 6th
Troop Carrier Squadron, 374th Troop Carrier Group, moves from Biak Island to
Tacloban, Leyte Island with C-47s; the 33d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 22d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Samar Island to Clark Field, Luzon with
B-24s; the 69th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group
(Medium), moves from Sansapor, New Guinea to Puerto Princesa, Palawan Island
with B-25s (the 69th is operating from Morotai Island).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

11/0047Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:56:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] 13 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 13 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 7 B-24s over the Gulf of Tonkin and
the S China Sea claim a cargo vessel and a large junk destroyed. 13 P-40s,
P-38s, and P-51s destroy a storehouse and damage a compound at
Chinchengchiang, China and knock out a bridge and hit machinegun positions
and other targets of opportunity at Lang Son, French Indochina.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 P-47s support forces of
the Chinese 50th Division, hitting Japanese positions along the Namtu River
in the Namhsan area; 26 P-38s hit road targets S of the bomb line in C Burma;
12 B-25s attack troop concentrations, supplies, and gun positions behind
enemy lines; 4 P-47s hit a wooded area in the British 36 Division battle
sector; other fighter-bombers make ineffective bridge strikes. Transports
complete 500+ sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): HQ 61st Troop Carrier Group
and the 14th and 15th Troop Carrier Squadrons move from Barkston, England to
Abbeville, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 16 P-51s based at Chievres,
Belgium fly an uneventful aircraft sweep in the Remagen-Koblenz, Germany
area; 17 F-5s fly photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 450+ A-26s, A-20s, and
B-26s, bomb 3 marshalling yards, 2 airfields, rail sidings, and several
targets of opportunity in the continuing interdiction campaign; fighters fly
escort, patrols, and armed reconnaissance, attack assigned targets, cover the
US First Army area in general along the Rhine River from Dusseldorf to
Linz/Rhine, support the US 9th Infantry Division around Hargarten, cover the
Remagen bridgehead, and support the XX Corps as it opens an offensive SE from
the Saarburg bridgehead.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Germany, 569 B-24s and B-17s
bomb the marshalling yard at Regensburg; 3 other bombers bomb the Landshut
marshalling yard and targets of opportunity; 280+ P-38s and P-51s provide
escort and several strafe rail traffic in Germany and Austria during the
return flight; 41 P-51s on a strafing mission attack rail traffic in the
Munich-Landshut-Regensburg and Ingolstadt, Germany areas and between Vienna
and Wiener-Neustadt, Austria. Photo reconnaissance is particularly extensive,
with 18 F-5s covering areas of Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia,
Hungary, and N Italy; 41 fighters escort the photo missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb railroad
bridges and fills at Perca, Vo Sinistro, Pizzighetone, Salorno, and Sacile;
fighters and fighter-bombers attack bridges, flak positions, ammunition and a
supply dump, rail lines, various other targets, and fly close support to the
US Fifth Army force as the XXII Tactical Air Command operates over wide areas
of N Italy from the N Apennines through the Po Valley, and into NE Italy; on
the night of 12/13 Mar, A-20s hit railroads, Po River crossings, dumps, and
movement, mainly in the Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 6 B-24s from Guam Island hit Woleai Atoll in
the Caroline Islands while 10 others bomb Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima
Island; during the night of 13/14 Mar, 8 B-24s, flying individual strikes
pound Susaki Airfield. 24 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb a storage area at
Saragani Bay, Mindanao Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 42: In the third of the Twentieth
AF's great fire raids, 274 of 301 B-29s begin bombing Osaka, Japan shortly
after 2400 hours local on the night of 13/14 Mar; because of 8/10 cloud
cover, bombing is by radar; the heart of the city, an area of 8.1 square
miles (21.0 square km), is wiped out during 3 hours of bombing from altitudes
of 5,000 to 9,600 feet (1,524 to 2,926 m); 134,744 houses are destroyed,
1,363 houses damaged and Japanese casualties are 3,988 dead, 678 missing and
8,463 dead; 5 other B-29s bomb other targets; the B-29s claim 1-0-0 Japanese
aircraft; 2 B-29s are lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
B-24s hit targets in the Saragani Bay area and effectively hit the town of
Lagao and B-25s support ground operations in the Zamboanga area. B-25s,
A-20s, and fighters support ground forces hitting forces and positions in the
Cagayan Valley on Luzon Island. B-25s hit sampans off Hainan Island, China
while P-51s sweep Samah Airfield on the island. B-24s hit installations in WC
Formosa and at Mako. The 408th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 22d Bombardment
Group (Heavy), moves from Samar Island to Clark Field, Luzon with B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 20:00:29 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: USSR in the Pacific Theater

On 3/10/95 Mike Yaklich wrote:
>        The Soviet Union declared war on Japan (or, to be specific, broadcast
>its declaration of war) and commenced military operations in the early hours of
>August 9th, 1945, the same day the second atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.

A question, if I may, was this declaration and commencement *before* the
Nagasaki detonation?  Since I can't believe that the USSR was privy to
detailed information concerning American atomic weapons development and
deployment, and since I assume that Russia would not have started such an
action without extensive prior planning, I'm forced to conclude that the
convergence of dates is merely a coincidence.  The more so since Stalin
assumed the US was actually going to invade Japan.  Does anyone else
concur?

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 20:26:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: What do they cost

 >Hello Folks
 >
 >  I am a Swede with a hopeless love for the most boring parts of WW2 -
 >That is War Economics! As it is a rather obscure subject I have some trouble
 >to find sources among the more readily available litterature (it's easy to find
 >information about how many B24 that were produced with tail-fin type E, and
 >if the Mustangs of the 234:th squadron had yellow markings on the propeller,
 >but try to find out how much a Mustang did cost, or how many man hours they
 >took to build...). Thus I now stand forth and give you some of my most boring
 >questions :-)
 >
 >What was the cost per airframe of the more common aircraft of WW2?
 >What was the development cost of the models?
 >How many man hours did it take to build them?

SNIP    SNIP    SNIP
 >
 >        Thanks in advance
 >        Robert Maartensson, Uppsala, Sweden
 >        robert@nexus.se

The unit costs of some USAAF aircraft are listed beloy.  The unit cost for
the first year usually included the experimental and test models which were
far more costly than the production models which followed, and therefore,
heavily weighted the unit cost for the initial year.  The blank spaces in
the talbe indicate that official figures are not available for those years.


   MODEL         1939-41       1942        1943        1944        1945

A-20            $136,813    $124,253    $110,324    $100,800
A-26             224,498                 254,624     192,457    $175,892
AT-6              29,423      25,672                  22,952
AT-7 series       76,827      85,688      68,441
B-17             301,221     258,949                 204,370     187,742
B-24             379,162     304,391                 215,516
B-25             180,031     153,396     151,894     142,194     116,752
B-26             261,062     239,655     212,932     192,427
B-29                         893,730                 605,360     509,465
BT-13 series      25,035      23,068
C-46             341,831     314,700     259,268     233,377     221,550
C-47             128,761     109,696      92,417      88,574      85,035
C-54             516,553     370,492     400,831     285,113     259,816
L-4                            2,432       2,437       2,620       2,701
L-5                           10,165                   9,704       8,323
P-38             134,284     120,407     105,567      97,147
P-39              77,159      69,534                  50,666
P-40              60,562      59,444      49,449      44,892
P-47             113,246     105,594     104,258      85,578      83,001
P-51                          58,698      58,824      51,572      50,985
PT-13 series      10,002       9,896
PT-19 series       9,710      12,911      11,000      15,052


One of the reasons that aircraft unit costs went down was that mass
production reduced the man-hours required to manufacture aircraft, e.g., in
1942, it took 54,800 hours to build a B-17 but this had been reduced to
18,600 hours by 1944.  By mid-1944 the labor cost per pound of airplane was
only about a third of what it had been early in 1941, even though hourly
earnings had risen by more than 50%.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 20:34:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 02-26-95

 >        Theron Keller's daily post for 2-26-45 states that PASADENA (CL-65) AND
 >PORTERFIELD (DD-682) were damaged by naval gunfire south of Honshu, Japan.  I
 >assume they were not damaged by friendly fire; presumably there was a surface
 >engagement with the Japanese.  Can anyone provide additional detail on this enco
 >unter?
 >
 >------------------------------------------------------------
 >|    Skip Wilder               |                           |
 >|    phsp11a@prodigy.com       |"The road to hell is paved |
 >|    FAX (703)528-2103         | with good intentions."    |
 >|    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A.  |                           |
 >------------------------------------------------------------

I cannot find anything for the PASADENA but I found the following for the
PORTERFIELD in Volume V of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN NAVAL FIGHTING
SHIPS:

Early on the morning of 26 February, PORTERFIELD picked up a Japanese
picket boat on her radar screen, and promply engaged her.  The 150 foot
(45.7 m) boat put up a stiff fight, aided by rough seas which made fire
control difficult, but PORTERFIELD sank here within 15 minutes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 20:36:41 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-MAR-1945

On 11-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 9th Army sector, the 35th Division reaches
Wesel. In the 1st Army sector, the 78th Division is responsible for the
northern flank of the Remagen bridgehead. The 9th Division continues its
offensive in the Hargarten area. The 99th Division is attacking southeast
and reaches Leubsdorf and Ariendorf. The 2nd Division strengthens its
positions on the Rhine. In the 3rd Army sector, the XII and VIII Crops
continue to mop-up on the West bank of the Rhine and between the Rhine and
Moselle in preparation for crossing the Moselle. The 10th Armoured Division
is also attacking towards the Moselle.

Eastern Front - Soviet troops press from the south towards Danzig and
Gdynia. Berlin reports slight penetrations of the German positions in the
Kuestrin area as the Russians expand the Oder bridgeheads. The Germans
persist in their offensive in Hungary, but their losses are growing and the
Russian resistance is stiffening.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 43rd Division begins relieving the
1st Cavalry Division. In I Corps area, the 33rd Division consolidates and
patrols toward Galiano. In the 8th Army sector, elements of the 41st
Division secure the airfield and Zamboanga City on Mindanao and pushes
toward Pasananca. The east entrance of the Visayan Passage is now secure
and Filipino guerrillas take over the occupation of the Burias and Ticao
Islands.

Iwo Jima - The 4th Marine Division overcomes organized resistance within
its zone on the right flank of the VAC except for one stubborn pocket on
the division's right. In the center the 3rd Marine Division mops up and
protects the right flank of the 5th Marine Division. Terrain, as well as
the enemy, make slow progress for the 5th, despite close artillery support.

Burma - The Indian 19th Division continues to battle for Mandalay.

The Homefront
-------------
1,200 U.S. Prisoners Sail Home - Dispatches from Moscow say that 1,200 U.S.
servicemen, escaped or liberated from German prison camps, embarked for
American bases from Odessa March 7-8.

Best Selling Books - "Cannery Row" by John Steinbeck, "The Green Years" by
A.J. Cronin, "Great Son" by Edna Ferber, "Immortal Wife" by Irving Stone.
Non-fiction - "Brave Men" by Ernie Pyle, "Try And Stop Me" by Bennett Cerf.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Mar 1995 to 10 Mar 1995
************************************************

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Status: O

There are 15 messages totalling 592 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 03-11-95
  2. New User Info
  3. Japan bibliography
  4. 50TH: VISIT TO PARIS
  5. INF: War Economics (2)
  6. MEDIA: Tokyo memorial service (2)
  7. TACT: Invasion of Attu
  8. Photos of Glacier Girl
  9. WW II List subscription info
 10. More on Bong
 11. HMAS PERTH, 1942, and HMAS WALLER, 1996
 12. Save one for Mainz
 13. JAPAN BIBLIO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 04:00:15 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-11-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/11 Sun. United States naval landing craft ferry Army troops
           across the Rhine River at the Remagen bridgehead,
           Germany; this operation continues throughout March
           1945.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Carrier RANDOLPH (CV-15), by suicide plane,
              Ulithi, Caroline Islands area,
              10 d. 01'N., 139 d. 40'E.
            German submarines sunk:
             U-681, by naval land-based aircraft (VPB-103),
              off western France,
              49 d. 53'N., 06 d. 31'W.
             U-2515 and U-2530, by Army aircraft, Hamburg,
              Germany.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 01:34:39 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: New User Info

The timing of the Soviet declaration of war against Japan was set
at the Yalta conference in February 1945 (the text of which that
pertains to Japan is copied below), even though Stalin, in an
effort to downplay Roosevelt's attempts to elevate Chaing's China
to world power status, had promised to join in the war against Japan
after Germany's defeat as early as the Tehran conference of
November 1943.

On the afternoon of August 9, 1945, while Ambassador Sato was
attempting to press the Soviet government to advance Japan's peace
feelers to the Allies, the ambassador was summoned to the Foreign
Ministry to be given the Soviet Union's declaration of war.




AGREEMENT REGARDING JAPAN

The leaders of the three great powers - the Soviet Union, the
United States of America and Great Britain - have agreed that in
two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in
Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war
against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that:

1. The status quo in Outer Mongolia (the Mongolian People's
Republic) shall be preserved.

2. The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous
attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.:

(a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands
adjacent to it shall be returned  to the Soviet Union;

(b) The commercial port of Dairen shall be internationalized,
the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union in this port being
safeguarded, and the lease of Port Arthur as a naval base of the
U.S.S.R. restored;

(c) The Chinese-Eastern Railroad and the South Manchurian
Railroad, which provide an outlet to Dairen, shall be jointly
operated by the establishment of a joint Soviet-Chinese company,
it being understood that the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet
Union shall be safeguarded and that China shall retain
sovereignty in Manchuria;

3. The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.

It is understood that the agreement concerning Outer Mongolia
and the ports and railroads referred to above will require
concurrence of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek.  The President
will take measures in order to maintain this concurrence on
advice from Marshal Stalin.

The heads of the three great powers have agreed that these
claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled
after Japan has been defeated.

For its part, the Soviet Union expresses it readiness to
conclude with the National Government of China a pact of
friendship and alliance between the U.S.S.R. and China in order
to render assistance to China with its armed forces for the
purpose of liberating China from the Japanese yoke.

Joseph Stalin
Franklin d. Roosevelt
Winston S. Churchill

February 11, 1945.



--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Mar 1995 23:52:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Japan bibliography

  Mike Yaklich's list is a good start.  For the ultimate bibliography see:

John J. Sbrega, =The War Against Japan, 1941-1945: An Annotated
Bibliography= (New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1989).  Contains 5,259
entries of published books and articles in English.  Nicely arranged into
100+ topics and subtopics, and has index of authors.  Most entries have 2 to
5 lines of description by Sbrega, a Professor of History at the Community
College of Rhode Island.

Of course, it lacks the many interesting publications since the cutoff date
of 12/31/87.

If anyone wants, I can look up the number of entries on a specific topic.

Ed Miller  e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 11:50:15 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: VISIT TO PARIS

  FOR JEFF ROBERTS
  I have waited to see if anyone else would comment on you message of
March 7 about my posting on my visit to Paris in 1945.  Since no one has,
I thought I should at least let you know that I read it with interest.
  After rereading the parts of my letter that you quoted, it does not seem
to me I can add much.  That is the way things were.
  We did not talk about sex much, but the lack of it was certainly a
burden for all of us.  This was particularly true for the married men, who
were usually, but not always, concerned about loyalty to their wives.
  I also noticed that those who had sex during visits to Paris looked
rather worried for several weeks, until they were sure they had not
brought something they did not want back with them.
  As to how my statements got by the censors, you are perhaps not aware
that officers censored their own letters.  The prohibitions related only
to military matters, not personal.  When censoring an enlisted man's
letter, it would never have occurred to me to delete anything of a
personal nature.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 06:25:07 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: INF: War Economics

To Robert Martensson:

There is a book called "There's a War To be Won" by Geoffrey Perrett which gets
into what it took to get the war machine going and keep it going. I find Perrettvery readable also. Iis been a couple of years since I read it so I don't remember the specifics, but its gets into some of the finacial aspects of the war.


Hope you enjoy it,

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 09:23:01 -0600
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: Tokyo memorial service

>From Associated Press, today's Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:

        "The flames destroyed so much that no accurate death toll was
ever complied.  Estimates run from 83,000 to 197,000, but 100,00 is the
most frequently used figure.
        "The only worse attack was the U.S. atomic bombing of Hiroshima,
which is estimated to have killed 140,000 people."

Several questions here -- first, I don't recall seeing estimates over
100,000 for the Tokyo raid.  Where does that high number come from?

Second, I can only assume that 140,000 for Hiroshima is some sort of
aggregate that includes deaths months/years later from radiation related
illness.  I cannot recall ever seeing a death toll for Hiroshima over
100,000 that included only deaths directly related to the explosion.

In other words, I have always, and until someone more authoritative than
the Associated Press will continue, to maintain the Tokyo raid as the
most destructive single bombing mission of the war.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 11:22:39 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Tokyo memorial service

>>From Associated Press, today's Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:
>
>        "The flames destroyed so much that no accurate death toll was
>ever complied.  Estimates run from 83,000 to 197,000, but 100,00 is the
>most frequently used figure.
>        "The only worse attack was the U.S. atomic bombing of Hiroshima,
>which is estimated to have killed 140,000 people."
>
>Several questions here -- first, I don't recall seeing estimates over
>100,000 for the Tokyo raid.  Where does that high number come from?

The following was posted on 9 Mar 95 by James E. Irwin:
   "Estimates of the death toll in Tokyo run from 83,000 to 197,000 --
the enormous range a measure of the scale of destruction. Along with
so much else, the flames incinerated family registers and other
demographic records making it impossible for authorities to
accurately measure casualties."

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:05:50 -0500
From:    James Ray Watkins <dawgonpete@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: War Economics

Does this also include information on the training that went into the Warr
effort?


>To Robert Martensson:
>
>There is a book called "There's a War To be Won" by Geoffrey Perrett which gets
>into what it took to get the war machine going and keep it going. I find
Perrett
>very readable also. Iis been a couple of years since I read it so I don't
rememb
>er the specifics, but its gets into some of the finacial aspects of the war.
>
>
>Hope you enjoy it,
>
>Kevin Kamphaus
>kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com
>
Ray Watkins
A.I., Department of Rhetoric and Composition
English, University of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 15:03:23 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: TACT: Invasion of Attu

I would like to add my thanks to Mike Yaklich for the great work he
put into summarizing the war from the Japanese side.

It is such a huge subject, as Mike has so evidently discovered, that
even with all he as written he hasn't been able to provide much
more than a broad brush description of the Pacific war.

It is because of this that I fear that he has unintentionally left
an incorrect impression of the defense of Attu island n 1943.
Hopefully, this will help to straighten that out.  I promise that
I'm only going to talk about Attu.  I haven't the guts to tackle a
subject of greater scope.

We begin with Mike's 5 March posting, "Tactical afterthoughts on
Japan part 4", where he describes the differences between the top
10% of Japanese officers, who received staff training, with the
other 90% who didn't:

>...The other 90%, most of whom could not realistically expect more
>than, with luck, to retire as colonels after a few decades of
>service, tended to be far less imbued with analytical skills.
>Among this majority of Japanese officers who populated the middle
>and lower ranks of the officer corps, there was a strong tendency
>to give prominence to spiritual and moral factors over the
>material...local initiatives by the field officers of the type just
>described were more likely to result in "bamboo spear tactics..."


The next time Mike mentions "Bamboo spear tactics" is in his 9
March posting "Apologies to the emporer for Japan posts" where he
describes the fight for Attu:

>The Japanese subsequently fought a long delaying action on Attu
>before being wiped out (here they really used bamboo spear tactics
>at the end-- the last charge by some 800 Japanese included a number
>of men with rifles who charged with fixed bayonets because they
>were out of ammunition).  They managed to withdraw undetected from
>Kiska.

I'm going to come to the defense of Colonel Yamakazi, the commander
of the Japanese garrison on Attu.

The defense of Attu actually begins on 18 February 1943.  On this
date, Admiral McMorris intercepted and sank two transports
attempting to re-supply Attu and Kiska.  In response, the IJN
ordered Adm. Hosagoya to escort the next two transports to the
Aleutians.  Warned by radio intercepts that the convoy was coming,
but not the size of the Japanese effort, Adm. McMorris, with two
cruisers and two destroyers met Adm. Hosagoya's 4 cruisers and 4
destroyers off of the Komodorski islands.  A four hour gun battle
ensued, leaving the USS Salt Lake City dead in the water and
hiding in smoke.  However, Adm. Hosagoya, low on ammunition and
fearing an attack by land based bombers (who could not fly because
the weather at their field was so bad that their bombs were frozen
to the ground) turned back.  Subsequently, Adm. McMorris' forces
stopped two more Japanese destroyers attempting to re-supply Attu
and Kiska.  The upshot of all this is that from February 18 to May
11 (the date of the Attu landings) Colonel Yamakazi and his force
of 2,600 were completely cut off from their supply line.  They were
also subject to bombing by the Army, Navy, or both, every day that the
weather permitted an attack.

To liberate Attu, Admiral Francis W. Rockwell was given a force of
11,000 soldiers on five troop transports.  These were escorted by
a light carrier, three battleships and 19 smaller vessels.

The plan was to land at two points on the island, Holtz Bay to the
North and Massacre Bay to the south.  Both forces were to move
inland until they met, then turn east and trap the Japanese forces
in a cul-de-sac called Chichagof Valley.  There the Japanese, with
no escape route open to them, could surrender or be taken apart.
The battle was expected to last three days.

Unfortunately, Col. Yamashita hadn't read the script.

Yamashita's first decision was to not squander any of his meager
force attempting to oppose the landings.  The Americans came
ashore unopposed.  Instead, Yamashita had established a series of
firing positions high on the ridges of this rugged island (many
were obscured from sea level by the cloud cover).  From these
positions, where the firing points to the choke points that the US
forces had to pass were long before established, his people were
able to attack the US forces with frightening accuracy whenever
the GIs attempted to advance.

Using airpower, shipborne artillery, land based artillery and
massed troops, the Americans finally pushed Yamashita's forces
into the Chicagof, but not until the three day invasion had
stretched from May 11 to May 29.  Even then, the Japanese held the
high ground, and weren't trapped in the cul-de-sac that was the
original intent.

The Japanese were essentially out of food and ammunition at this
point, and Yamashita could see only one way out.  If they could
attack, and break through, a weak point in the American line, they
might be able to reach the food and ammunition that the US had
stockpiled on the beach.

On the morning of the 29th, down to 1000 men, Yamashita began his
attack.  While it started out well, it eventually broke against an
engineer unit dug in on a hilltop that lay across their path.
Heavy rifle and machine gun fire held the Japanese up until
American reinforcements could arrive.

Still, the Japanese continued the fight through the night, and in
a final "bamboo spear" attack on the morning of the 30th, Colonel
Yamashita, and his command, died.

Of the approximately 2,600 Japanese on the island when the assault
began, only 28 survived.  In turn, these troops caused
approximately 2,500 casualties (killed & wounded) among the
Americans.

Colonel Yamashita's defense of Attu is more comparable to the
defense of Iwo Jima or Okinawa, (battles fought far later in the
war after the Japanese had revised their defensive strategies) than
it is to the "bamboo spear" tactics that were prevalent among the
Japanese in 1943.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 20:24:48 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Photos of Glacier Girl

Dennis,

I received the photos of the "Glacier Girl" today.  Many thanks!  I have a
couple of questions that I thought I'd share with the rest of the group.  I
know I must be starting to become a nuisance on your mailbox.

I was intrigued to see in one of the photos several M2HB, .50 caliber
machine guns ("Ma Deuces" we called them in the modern army.  I don't know
if this nickname was used in WWII.) in the nose cradles.  Does anyone know
how the restoration team would have acquired these pieces of hardware?
Don't worry anyone, I'm asking out of curiosity only.  I don't actually
want one (though I *do* have this one neighbor who drives me absolutely
nuts...).

Also, can someone tell me what would have been the standard armament of a
P-38F, as well as how it might have been configured for individual
missions?

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 20:43:31 -0500
From:    DSB77@AOL.COM
Subject: WW II List subscription info

Hello,

I would like to your WWII list. Please send me subscription information.

Thank you.

Doug
DSB77@AOL.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 21:25:28 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@DORSAI.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: More on Bong

On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Chris!
>
> This has probably been answered but a good wingman will protect his
> leader at all times. Hotshotting it off on your own may often as not
> cause you to get nailed, particularly if inexperienced.
>
That was my experience in these computer simulations too, a credit to the
med who wrote them.  My problem is, if I stay close to my flight leader,
I get nailed, if I go off looking to raise my score I get nailed.  In the
confusion of a dogfight things get scattered anyway.  I was listening to
a Recorded Books tape of "Messerschmitts Over Sicily" by Col. Johannes
Steinhoff, recounting his Luftwaffe years in Sicily, before the Americans
moved in.  He had just come in from the Battle of stalingrad, and had
never encountered formations of American heavy bombers before, and
General Galland had been lecturing them on how the boys in Reich's
Defense knocked them down.  Steinhoff thought he understood the idea
until they actually ran into their first group of B-17's over the
mediterranean ocean.  He dived in and the whole fighter group scattered
like sack of fleas.  Half of them were on their last reserves of fuel and
turned back without firing a shot.  He shot down his first VIERMOT and
looked around and everyone was gone.  He flew back pretty much by himself
and the planes drifted in one by one.  Two never showed up at all,
probably having crashed into the sea.  If he'd had a wingman it didn't do
him any good.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 21:34:19 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: HMAS PERTH, 1942, and HMAS WALLER, 1996

'Thought WWII-L might be interested, too:

As some of you already know, I've designed a cardstock (paper)
  model of -- among others -- the HMAS SYDNEY class of light
  cruisers:  specifically HMAS PERTH.  There was a photo of
  my growing fleet in the Feb95 issue of FINESCALE MODELER.

Recently, I received a letter from the grandson of CAPT Hector
  Waller, the captain of HMAS PERTH who died with his ship in
  the Battle of Sunda Straits, 28Feb/1Mar42.  (This was the
  battle in which USS HOUSTON -- "The Galloping Ghost of the
  Java Coast" -- was also sunk, and USN CAPT Rooks died with
  *his* ship, as well.)  Anyway, Mr. Waller said that he and
  his family were quite excited to hear about my model.

I have mentioned before the idea of *models* being, in and of
  themselves, memorials to the ships and men they represent
  -- and how I will be providing dedications to them, as I do
  for the wargames I design.  His letter was further motiva-
  tion on that count.

Anyway, he lives in the Midwest -- his family emigrated to
  Canada, and he's now here in the States -- so on my way back
  from the Egyptian Campaign wargames convention at Southern
  Illinois Univ. I gave him a call on the phone.

We talked about HMAS PERTH and scale model warships of
  model warships of WWII Commonwealth cruisers, generally.
  However, he mentioned that the Royal Australian Navy is
  going to be commissioning the new (conventionally
  powered) attack submarine HMAS Waller next year, and his
  whole family is going to try to make the ceremony.

(I'm sure *anyone* interested is welcome ... if you can get
  there.  :-)  )

Andrew was trying to negotiate his 2 yr old daughter to bed
  during the conversation and had babysitting duties, so he
  still wasn't able to see the model himself.  Higher,
  happier priorities.  :-)

It is important to remember that new ships -- as is also
  often true for new children -- are often named/
  commissioned in proud and/or beloved *remembrance*.


Lou Coatney, Model Shipwright at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

Incidentally, at SIU I playtested my new SEA, SKY, AND
  *JUNGLE*:  THE HORROR OF GUADALCANAL, AUG-DEC42.  It's
  a fairly simple game -- sort of a cross between the old
  parlor gamee BATTLESHIP and a regular wargame.  I'm afraid
  I didn't emulate Halsey very well, but if I just change a
  *few* of the rules ... :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 22:55:33 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Save one for Mainz

About ten years ago, I found myself on my second tour in Germany, this time
with the 8th Infantry Division (my first round overseas had been with the
3rd Armored Division).  While in-processing at division HQ in Bad Kreuznach
<sp?> I heard an interesting story that I always wanted to check on, but
somehow never found the time to do so.

You see, I was about to be sent to the 4th Battalion of the 69th Armored
Regiment, stationed at Lee Barracks in Mainz-Gonnsenheim, and I was being
in-processed by a crusty, old CW4 who was wearing on his right arm the
patch of the unit (the 4th Infantry Division, at Ft. Carson) that I had
just come from.  During the course of our conversation he told me the story
of "Save One for Mainz"  As I served my four year tour with the 8th ID I
came across this story many times.

According to the tale, it seems that during the early years of the air war
over Europe the crew member of an American bomber bailed out and landed in
the Rhine.  After spending several hours battling the violent currents of
that river, he finally managed to reach the shore, right in the middle of
the city of Mainz.  The citizens of Mainz, angered over a recent allied
bombing raid that had destroyed a city park, killing many children, held a
kangaroo court in the Rathous Platz, and then executed the airman.  As the
story goes, once word of this reached the allies, bomber crews would often
rig their bomb racks to save one bomb, and then would fly sometimes
hundreds of miles out of their way to deliver that last bomb to Mainz.

Now, while I know that so much of this sounds like military folklore, I
*do* know from many visits to local museums, and from talking to residents
of Mainz and Wiesbaden (where I had an apartment for two years, right
across the Rhine from Mainz) that the city was over 80% destroyed by
bombing during the war.  This always seemed to me to be an unusually high
percentage.

I wonder, has anyone else ever heard of "Save One for Mainz"?  I would be
most interested if I could hear from some of the WWII veterans on this
list.  Keep in mind, I will not be disappointed if the story is not true,
but I really would like to hear if it is.

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 23:53:29 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: JAPAN BIBLIO

Mike, there is no such thing as an "ex-Marine." Marines are either serving,
retired, or former. Once a Marine, always a Marine. By the way, Kogun was
co-authored by Alvin D. Coox. Regards, Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Mar 1995 to 11 Mar 1995
*************************************************

From <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:owner-WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Mon Mar 13 00:01:42 1995
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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 11 Mar 1995 to 12 Mar 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 16 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Save one for Mainz ... and unload on Hanau? (2)
  2. war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...) (3)
  3. Moscow travel course
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-MAR-1945
  5. "Butch" O'Hare Death
  6. Machine-gunning survivors in the water:  War crime?
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-MAR-1945
  8. Mush Morton (2)
  9. War crimes in the Pacific
 10. USSR in the Pacific Theat
 11. USSR in the Pacific Theater
 12. Pearl Harbor questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 11 Mar 1995 22:58:42 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz ... and unload on Hanau?

Joseph,

     I was stationed in Hanau at Pioneer Kaserne in 1968 --
when Czech. was overrun, I might add.  The story we had, about
Hanau, was that it was no target, but one day (in the lousy
weather/visibility typical of central Germany) a lead bombardier
mistook it for Frankfurt, and it got its ONE BIG RAID:  70%
destroyed.

     If 70% of Hanau got obliterated in one raid, 80% of an
industrial target like Mainz would seem reasonable.  Also,
the lynching of Allied bomber crewmen was not uncommon.

     (There is that great scene in the feature film "Battle of
Britain" where the English farmers roughly apprehend a parachuted
Luftwaffe pilot ... who is actually *Polish*!  :-)  )

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 08:32:31 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...)

On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

snip

> there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
> Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley Morton,
> didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would *not* have
> been tried for war crimes.

snip

What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?

---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:24:47 -0800
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: Moscow travel course

There is still a chance to go on the travel course to Moscow from 27 May-27
June and study Russia's political, economic and social situation first-hand.

The course is open to all adults, but participants who are students and who
want university credit can do so.

Details and a sample daily schedule are available on request, and questions
are welcome, but participation has to be settled in the next week or so.

Eric

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:56:12 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...)

At 8:32 AM 3/12/95, Roddy R. Rupert wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
>> Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley Morton,
>> didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would *not* have
>> been tried for war crimes.
>
>snip
>
>What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?

I believe the evidence is that he reported it in his patrol report.  The
survivors were Japanese soldiers and his reasoning was that if they made it
to shore they would kill American soldiers.  I'll try to post more later. I
don't think there is doubt that it occurred.  I also agree that nothing
would have been done to him had he survived the war.

When American subs pulled survivors out of the water I think it was more to
obtain intelligence than it was for humanitarian reasons.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 11:03:15 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <awothers@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: war crimes (was Re2: THOUGHTS: Germany an...)

In message Sun, 12 Mar 1995 08:32:31 -0600,
  "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>  writes:

> On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
>> there is at least one notorious instance of an American boat gunning
>>    Japanese survivors in the water. The skipper in question, Dudley
>>  Morton,  didn't survive the war, but my bet is that if he had, he would
>> *not* have  been tried for war crimes.
>>
>
> snip
>
> What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?
>
> ---------------------------
> Rod Rupert
> Springfield, MO
>

The evidence against Morton was in his own report of the action.  As I
understand it, the survivors were Japanese troops and the ship (or barge,
I'm not sure) was sunk close enough to shore that they could easily make it
to land. He took the action to stop them from getting to shore.

Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: awothers@sfu.ca)
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 15:42:38 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-MAR-1945

On 12-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 78th Division holds
against several German counterattacks in the northern part of the Remagen
bridgehead where isolated pockets of Germans remain. The 9th Division is
heavily engaged near Hargarten. The 99th Division advances in the area
between Hargarten and Honingen. In the 3rd Army sector, the VIII completes
the occupation of the west bank of the Rhine. The XX and XII Corps are
getting ready to cross the Moselle. The 7th Army is regrouping extensively
in preparation for assaulting the West Wall.

Eastern Front - The 1st White Russian Front takes Kuestrin, a German
stronghold astride the Oder on the eastern approach to Berlin. The 2nd
White Russian Front closes in on Danzig and Gdynia.

Philippines - Elements of the 11th Airborne Division drive on Mabini until
stopped north of Mainaga by the Japanese.

Iwo Jima - The 3rd and 4th Marine Division mop-up their respective
sectors and reduce pockets of resistance remaining on each of their right
flanks. The 5th Marine Division is assisted by air, navel gunfire,
artillery and tanks as it continues the assault on the final defenses of
the Japanese - a network of mutually supporting pillboxes and prepared
positions on broken terrain on north Iwo Jima. Little ground is gained, but
the Japanese positions are softened and many caves and pillboxes are
overrun.

Burma - The Indian 20th Division is rapidly clearing the region southwest
of Mandalay and captures Myotha.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 12:54:50 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz ... and unload on Hanau?

Lou...
        (sigh)
        Yes, ther was indeed "a great scene in that movie..." where
British civilians roughed up an airman...
        However, once again, as Alfred Hitchcock said, "It's only a movie."
        Why is it that time and again, people solemnly use entirely fictional
movies as references to history. They are simply filmic enyetrainments, with
no pretences to actuality or fact.
        There was not one documented instance of a German or Italian airman
being lynched by British civilians during the entire Secoend World War.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 14:56:55 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: "Butch" O'Hare Death

In one of Mike Yaklich's recent additions to his fine posts on
the war in the Pacific, he mentioned that Butch O'Hare was shot down
by an American tailgunner during a night action.

The tailgunner involved has recently published his memoirs.  See Alvin
Kernan (I'm doing this from memory, but I think the spelling is correct),
_Crossing the Line:  A Bluejacket's Odyssey in World War II_.  I think it
is published by the Naval Institute Press, though I could be wrong.  It was
recently a selection of the History Book Club.

Kernan describes the incident in question in one of his chapters.  I read the
book several weeks ago and some of the details are beginning to get fuzzy.
During one of the island invasions in the Central Pacific (the Marshalls,
perhaps) the US fleet was in danger of night bombing attacks.  A couple of
TBFs were fitted with early airborne radar sets and sent up, each with a
pair of Hellcats, which they were to help guide to intruders picked up
on the radar.  On the night O'Hare was killed, the Hellcats had failed to
link up with the the radar plane immediately after takeoff.  The Americans
did manage to shoot down two or three Bettys.  During part of the action,
the TBF, the Hellcats assigned to it (including O'Hare), and a Japanese
plane were fairly close together and Kernan was one of people firing.  There
were rumors at the time that O'Hare had been shot down by "friendly" fire
when he did not return.  I'm not sure that was ever an official determination.
Incidently, Kernan reports that all of the Navy aircrew involved, including
himself, were awarded the Navy Cross for this early effort at night interception

Kernan's book has been well received.  His description of the sinking of the
HORNET is one of the best accounts of a vessel's sinking that I have read.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 15:47:55 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Machine-gunning survivors in the water:  War crime?

This may not have been a war crime.  If those survivors
  couldn't have been captured, they were still enemy at large,
  able to be rescued by their own side and brought back into
  the war as combatants.

In the excellent public television program on naval aviation,
  "Wings over Water," USN Adm James Russell told how his PBY
  aviators were machinegunned in the water after they had
  evacuated their downed ship, near the Aleutians and how
  they had been "legitimate targets of war."  (I about fell
  out of my chair when I saw/heard him say that.  (Ironically,
  though, one of the crewmen climbed back into the PBY and
  manned the waist gun that crippled the Japanese Zero that
  was attacking them badly enough -- or so its pilot thought
  -- that he flew it to a nearby Aleutian island where he
  tried to land it and discovered to his fatal surprise that
  those nice, grassy fields were actually muskeg which bogged
  down his landing gear, flipped his plane over, and broke
  his neck.  It was *that* Zero that we captured and flight-
  tested with/against the Grumman Gellcat designed to beat
  the Zero.  There *can* be justice, it seems.)

It should also be remembered that rescued Japanese often
  then attempted to kill their rescuers, and that the
  Japanese usually refused rescue (and capture), in accordance
  with their ruthless Bushido code of war.

Does anyone else on the list know if shooting a bailed-out
  pilot in his chute over *his* territory is actually a war
  crime.  Why should he be allowed to live again to fly
  the very next day -- with the benefit of having learned
  from his previous day's mistake?

(In the "Fighter Aces of World War II" video, an elderly
  American vet -- looking like a warm, grandfatherly
  country doctor, rather than any trained aerial killer --
  quietly described an episode where he found a German
  pilot murdering American bomber crewmen in their parachutes,
  after they had bailed out over Germany.  He cornered the
  German fighter, but damaged it gradually, until *its*
  pilot had to bail out.  He then executed the pilot in
  *his* chute ... remorselessly.)

In his book, Wing Commander Tuck described his own "mercy
  killing" of a Luftwaffe pilot bobbing in his life raft
  in the English Channel in the face of a worsening storm
  Obviously, from his description of the incident, Tuck
  was haunted by his action.  (His own exhaustion at the
  time may have been a factor.)

During the 1992 election, there was talk on Internet that
  George Bush could be accused of machine-gunning Japanese
  survivors during the war, but the issue was never used,
  and the Vietnam issue was never used as it could have been
  against Bill Clinton ... in return?

By 1992, the wartime fear/hatred of the Japanese -- and the
  understanding of the true nature of (that) war -- was so long
  past, that such actions by pilot Ensign Bush (*if* true) would
  probably have been censured with hindsight righteousness ...
  and injustice.

This is just one recent, relevant example of why it is so important
  that (we) historians never allow the true historical context(s)
  of such tragic events to be forgotten.

The intellectual, political explosion about the dropping of the
  atom bomb, toward which we are moving with the impending
  50th anniversary and the various "observances"/final judgements
  of that a-building, is another case in point.  If you thought
  the Smithsonian affair was hot, ...

(I was at the American Historical Association meeting in early
  Feb in Chicago.  The Hiroshima presentations portended what is
  to come.  :-I  My formal proposal for an international Asian-
  Pacific War historical commission -- of veterans, etc., as well
  as academics, formally appointed as representatives of their
  nations' peoples, to resolve and reconcile the historical and
  moral issues of the war -- was considered but later rejected.)

Anyway, ...

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 18:19:11 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-MAR-1945

On 13-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 78th Division is unable to
advance against heavy resistance on the northern flank of the Remagen
bridgehead. The 9th Division pushes on to the region betweeen Kalendorn,
Norscheid and Hargarten. In the 3rd Army sector, the XII Corps complete
their preparations for their attack against the Moselle. XX Corps attacks
southeast from the Saarburg bridgehead after heavy artillery preparation.
Rugged terrain and West Wall defenses make progress slow.

Iwo Jima - The capture of Iwo Jima is considered to be complete, but a
number of pockets of resistance are still present. The 3rd and 4th Marine
Divisions continue to mop-up. The 5th Marine Division encounters fewer
pillboxes and makes good progress on the right flank. Tanks, flame throwers
and artillery are employed to flush the Japanese from concealed positions.

The Homefront
-------------
House Extends Lend-Lease - The House of Representatives has voted to extend
the life of the Lend-Lease Act until June 30, 1946 but directed that it
will not be used for "postwar relief, rehabilitation or reconstruction."

Midnight Curfew Eased - The War Mobilization Office has authorized
exemption from the midnight curfew for restaurants patronized primarily by
war workers employed nearby.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 15:24:38 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Mush Morton

>From _Silent Victory_ by Clay Blair.  In his report, Morton described
the killing of the hundreds (or thousands) of survivors of the transport.
To some submariners, this was cold-bloded murder and repugnant.
However, no question was raised about it in the glowing patrol report
endorsements, where policy was usually set forth.  Many submariners
interpreted this -- and the honors and publicity showered on Morton and
Wahoo -- as tacit approval from the submarine high command.  In fact,
neither Lockwood or Christie, nor Fife ever issued a policy statment on
the subject.  Whether other skippers should follow Morton's example was
left up to the individual.  Few did.

No matter how you rationalize it, I'm certain we would have tried as a
war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
thing.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 17:30:11 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: War crimes in the Pacific

A consideration:  Japan had not signed the Geneva protocol
  on the treatment of prisoners of war.

This was pointed out in MIRACLE OF DELIVERANCE:  THE CASE FOR
  THE BOMBING OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, by (Englishman)
  Stephen Harper.

*Very* strangely, the Japanese rejection of the Geneva
  protocol is apparently omitted in John Dower's book WAR
  WITHOUT MERCY, which portrays the Asian-Pacific War as
  a White vs. Japanese race war and chronicles atrocities
  on both sides.  Had the Japanese signed that protocol
  (and treated their captives more humanely), much of the
  Pacific War's exterminatory hatred would have been precluded,
  but Dower omits this.  ("Geneva" wasn't in the index, I
  didn't find anything promising under "Prisoners of War,"
  and my cursory scan of the text produced nothing where I
  expected to find it.  Does anyone else remember Dower
  mentioning Geneva in his book?  )

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 17:35:53 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

>
> [Deleted] ..................., I'm certain we would have tried as a
> war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
> thing.

    Agreed, John.  A double standard to be sure.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

>
> John Riegsecker
> Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
> University of Puget Sound
>
> riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 00:23:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: USSR in the Pacific Theat

Joseph Feld asks

  >  A question, if I may, was this declaration and commencement *before*
  > the  Nagasaki detonation?  Since I can't believe that the USSR was privy
  > to  detailed information concerning American atomic weapons development
  > and  deployment, and since I assume that Russia would not have started
  > such an  action without extensive prior planning, I'm forced to conclude
  > that the  convergence of dates is merely a coincidence.  The more so
  > since Stalin  assumed the US was actually going to invade Japan.  Does
  > anyone else  concur?

  An interesting question.  Stalin promised at Yalta (Jan. 1945) to enter
the war against Japan three months after V-E day, the time needed to
redeploy Soviet forces.  V-E Day turned out to be May 7, so his attack on
August 9th was just two days behind schedule.  It may be that the A-bombs
gave him the final nudge, but this was one promise he kept.

Ed Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:01:15 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: USSR in the Pacific Theater

> Joseph Feld asks
>
>   >  A question, if I may, was this declaration and commencement *before*
>   > the  Nagasaki detonation?  Since I can't believe that the USSR was privy
>   > to  detailed information concerning American atomic weapons development

Joseph,

     In his recently published memoirs, Stalin's spymaster, Sudoplatov,
alleges exactly that:  That the NKVD *did* have a direct conduit of
information from the American nuclear weapons scientists/program.  The
claim is that Oppenheimer knowingly facilitated the placement of
Soviet operatives in the program and acquiesced to the exportation of
our a-bomb technology to the Soviets.  Sudoplatov is hard to refute,
and the implications of American scientists' collaboration with the
Soviets -- via the Berkeley lab -- are profound and staggering:  it
was with the a-bomb under his belt that Stalin could subjugate E.
Europe and support the invasion of S. Korea without fear of direct
military attack from the U.S.

     One question about this, though:  If Stalin was getting full
intelligence about our program, he would have known that we had only
a few warheads constructed and available.  If he really wanted to
prolong the war, to expand and consolidate his gains in Asia,
wouldn't he have forewarned the Japanese, so that they could better
prepare themselves to endure the blasts and fight on?  (Or would he
have considered the risk of forewarning them too great:  that they
might have instead sued for peace -- unconditional surrender, even
-- sooner?)  Anyway, ...

     I'll post the bibliographic entry for S.'s book to you, if you
give me your e-mail address.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:22:05 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Pearl Harbor questions

I've been reading Stillwell's AIR RAID:  PEARL HARBOR!
  collection of American and Japanese eyewitness accounts
  of the attack and have come across a couple of items
  which have struck my curiosity.

1. On p. 234, Peggy Hughes Ryan told about the improvised
  bomb shelters soon being populated by huge Hawaiian
  "Boffo" toads ... and SCORPIONS!  I didn't know scorpions
  are on the Hawaiian Islands.  Are they indigenous, or
  were they transplanted by ship?

2. On pp. 184-5, LT Charles A. Curtze is quoted as saying:

  ST. LOUIS put to sea through the narrow shallow entrance
  out through the reef making turns for about 25 knots but
  pushing or dragging her displacement in the water ahead
  or astern making good perhaps 10-12 knots. ...

     Could someone please explain the hydrodynamics of
  this?

Thanks.

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Mar 1995 to 12 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 12 Mar 1995 to 13 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 32 messages totalling 1119 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Seattle Area Pointers (2)
  2. MEDIA: Tokyo memorial service
  3. INF: USN Chronology 03-13-95
  4. Russia Enters the Pacific
  5. Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge) (2)
  6. Machine-gunning survivor (2)
  7. USSR in the Pacific Theater (3)
  8. HIST: A strange American desertion (2)
  9. Eastern Front (2)
 10. Please name that gun (again)
 11. Obersalzberg con't (2)
 12. TACT: Invasion of Attu
 13. MILO SEARCH RESULTS
 14. Re  Please name that gun
 15. David Glantz's books, re: Manchuria '45, etc.
 16. P-38F armament
 17. INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-MAR-1945
 18. Tin Can Sailor
 19. Accuracy and "Victory at Sea" (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)
 20. [INF] USAAF 14 MAR 45
 21. Dudley Morton
 22. War crimes
 23. Mush Morton (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 00:07:13 -0600
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Seattle Area Pointers

Need some quick help.  I'm headed to Seattle for business this week on
short notice so I haven't had a chance to look into this for myself.

I've read the posts about Bremerton -- what's there to see and how do I
go about seeing it.

I know the Museum of Flight is a must see, but what else in the immediate
area would strike the fancy of a list member.

Any esoteric base museums (i.e., like the USAF ordinance museum at Ft.
Walton Beach/Eglin AFB)?

Leaving by Tuesday noon, so quick replies are very welcome.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 07:09:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Tokyo memorial service

 >>From Associated Press, today's Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:
 >
 >        "The flames destroyed so much that no accurate death toll was
 >ever complied.  Estimates run from 83,000 to 197,000, but 100,00 is the
 >most frequently used figure.
 >        "The only worse attack was the U.S. atomic bombing of Hiroshima,
 >which is estimated to have killed 140,000 people."
 >
 >Several questions here -- first, I don't recall seeing estimates over
 >100,000 for the Tokyo raid.  Where does that high number come from?
 >
 >Second, I can only assume that 140,000 for Hiroshima is some sort of
 >aggregate that includes deaths months/years later from radiation related
 >illness.  I cannot recall ever seeing a death toll for Hiroshima over
 >100,000 that included only deaths directly related to the explosion.
 >
 >In other words, I have always, and until someone more authoritative than
 >the Associated Press will continue, to maintain the Tokyo raid as the
 >most destructive single bombing mission of the war.


The official Japanese total made after the bombing was 83,793 killed
and 40,918 wounded.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-13-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/13 Tue.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 66, by Army aircraft,
              South China Sea,
              23 d. 30'N., 117 d. 10'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 09:29:40 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russia Enters the Pacific

Joseph,
        Several accounts that I have read have agreed that the
Soviet offensive in the east was extremely successful, conquering
a larger chunk of land than any other attack in the war.  I believe
that their attacks were centered against Manchuria (Manchukuo).
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 09:27:18 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

Henry,
        I believe I have seen the film segment that you mentioned and
I think it was the HMS Barham.  I should warn you that I am dealing
from my fuzzy and aging memory here.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:07:16 -0500
From:    Sean Barnett <sbarnett@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine-gunning survivor

        Reply to:   RE>Machine-gunning survivors in the water:  War crime?



--------------------------------------
Date: 3/13/95 9:00 AM
To: Sean Barnett
From: World War II Discussion List
Does anyone else on the list know if shooting a bailed-out
  pilot in his chute over *his* territory is actually a war
  crime.  Why should he be allowed to live again to fly
  the very next day -- with the benefit of having learned
  from his previous day's mistake?

(In the "Fighter Aces of World War II" video, an elderly
  American vet -- looking like a warm, grandfatherly
  country doctor, rather than any trained aerial killer --
  quietly described an episode where he found a German
  pilot murdering American bomber crewmen in their parachutes,
  after they had bailed out over Germany.  He cornered the
  German fighter, but damaged it gradually, until *its*
  pilot had to bail out.  He then executed the pilot in
  *his* chute ... remorselessly.)


During the 1992 election, there was talk on Internet that
  George Bush could be accused of machine-gunning Japanese
  survivors during the war, but the issue was never used,
  and the Vietnam issue was never used as it could have been
  against Bill Clinton ... in return?


Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

I have heard a story that Allied fighter pilots, knowing that German jet
pilots were aces, shot at them in their parachutes to prevent them from
flying more missions in their jets.  Does anyone out there know if this is
true?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 07:22:22 -0800
From:    Sonnenschein Nath and Rosenthal <shireman@CLASS.ORG>
Subject: Re: USSR in the Pacific Theater

        This discussion has reminded me of an interesting question posed
at a conference a few years ago...

        What role did the Soviet declaration of war against Japan play in
the decision to surrender, if any? Was the Emperor aware of the fate of
Germany after allied victory and Soviet occupation? Did the Japanese feel
humilating defeat was better in the short term than potential long-term
Soviet occupation? Or was the Soviet decision expected and thus of no
real surprise or factor? Any thoughts?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:36:26 -0500
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: HIST: A strange American desertion

In reading William L. Combs, THE VOICE OF THE SS: A HISTORY OF THE SS JOURNAL
"DAS SCHWARZE KORPS" [Peter Lang, 1986], I came across the bizarre story of
Martin James Monti, native of Florrisant MO, who left post in Karachi in
October 1944 and hitched plane rides to Italy where he stole a P-38
photo-recon plane. He flew to German-occupied territory and gave himself
up. He allegedly then cooperated with the Germans and under the alias of
"Cpt. Martin Wiethaupt" prepared some radio commentaries later broadcast to
American troops. "Supposedly, Monti had acquired SS credentials by the end of
the war when he surrendered at US Fifth Army headquarters in Milan" [p.414].

There's a bit more to this weird tale. Will post if anyone is interested.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:01:00 -0500
From:    Allen Witt <WITTA@ORAU.GOV>
Subject: Eastern Front

Hello,

I'm interested in reading about Russian operations on the eastern
european front and am looking for sources. What do you folks
recommend?

The time frame is from the invasion/occupation of Poland to VE day.


Allen Witt
WITTA@ORAU.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 07:58:03 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seattle Area Pointers

Bill,

        Fort Lewis is south of Seattle, a little past Tacoma.  It is an
extremely large Army base and it has a museum.  McChord Air Force base is
also nearby.  Have fun.

Patrick Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu


On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Bill Smith wrote:

> Need some quick help.  I'm headed to Seattle for business this week on
> short notice so I haven't had a chance to look into this for myself.
>
> I've read the posts about Bremerton -- what's there to see and how do I
> go about seeing it.
>
> I know the Museum of Flight is a must see, but what else in the immediate
> area would strike the fancy of a list member.
>
> Any esoteric base museums (i.e., like the USAF ordinance museum at Ft.
> Walton Beach/Eglin AFB)?
>
> Leaving by Tuesday noon, so quick replies are very welcome.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 17:32:14 +0200
From:    Erik Scheuermann <e.scheuermann@IKE.UNI-STUTTGART.DE>
Subject: Please name that gun (again)

Hi,

A few days ago I watched a Tv program on the invasion of Russia. It also
included original clips from the siege of Sevastopol. It was mentioned that
Sevastopol saw some of the largest and probably strangest siege guns,
including the here already mentioned Gustav Geraet (absolutely impressive
to see this thing fire, although the cut at this scene was absolutel crap.).
Apart from this huge railgun they aso showed pictures of another gun I had
never seen or heard of before. It looked like an overdimesioned siege
mortar, with a relative short barrel (hard to judge from the pictures, but
from a close standing soldier I would say little more the 6m) and a huge
caliber. Unfortunately the gun was shw only for very short times, but I
also remember that it had THOR written on it in (pseudo-)runic letters.
Sorry I can not give more infos, but has anybody heard of such a gun, or
at least a book where I can look? Any help is appreciated, thanx a lot in
advance.

                                                So long

                                                        Erik

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 17:02:17 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <nechama@BOREALIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine-gunning survivor

>I have heard a story that Allied fighter pilots, knowing that German jet
>pilots were aces, shot at them in their parachutes to prevent them from
>flying more missions in their jets.  Does anyone out there know if this is
>true?

Something to consider is that towards the end of the war, the Germans were
running so low on fuel that they had to sharply cut back on training new
pilots, because they did not have the av gas to spare.  In light of this,
the fewer trained pilots that returned meant that there were fewer and
fewer competent pilots.

Just my $.02.

Nechama Cox
nechama@borealis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 17:49:39 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Obersalzberg con't

Here we go with part two. . .

The Eagle's Nest

Perhaps one of the most interesting (and arguably the most famous) construction
project in the Obersalzberg complex was the "Eagle's Nest".  Built on the
summit of Kehlstein mountain, physically separated from the rest of the
Obersalzberg buildings, but still within the "Fueher area".  The Eagle's
Nest, or Tea House (the name Eagle's Nest was given by the occupying American
forces after the war) was an engineering marvel.

To construct it a four mile long road was blasted out of solid rock, with
many hairpin turns and small tunnels.  That led to a parking area from which
a tunnel was dug 150 feet into the mountain to a shaft rising 350 feet to
the top of the mountain.

The Tea House itself is not particularly large.  It consists of a dining room,
large tea room, study, kitchen, guard room , rest room, washrooms, and a
basement.  Most rooms are lined with pine or elm wood.

The Tea House was Bormann's idea and he used his influence to obtain Hitler's
approval for the project.  It is speculated that Bormann wanted to have a
location somewhat isolated from the main Obersalzberg complex, for private
meetings with Hitler, or to simply have a place where he could impress visitors.
He used it extensively.  Hitler only visited the Tea House five times.

Following the war the occupation forces intended to blow up the Tea House
along with most of the other Obersalzberg buildings, but intervention by
a Berchtesgaden official through to Bavarian government convinced the
Allies to leave it intact.

More to come. . .

                                   Doug

Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:34:50 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: USSR in the Pacific Theater

        To Joseph Feld:

        The Soviet declaration and commencement of hostilities definitely
occurred prior to the dropping of the Nagasaki bomb.  The Soviet radio
braodcast of the declaration was received in Japan in the early morning hours,
something like 3 am, the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki at 11:01 am local time.
As for the coincidence of the Soviet action and the American atomic bombings,
the Russian offensive in Manchuria and Korea was a massive effort requiring
weeks of build-up, including the wholesale transfer of units from the European
areas of Russia over some 3,000 miles of railroad.  A mere glance at the Soviet
order of battle for this operation, and the logistics required to support it,
renders ludicrous any implied assumption that the Soviet offensive was a direct
reaction to the American use of the atomic bomb (at least in the short-term
sense).  Whatever his motivations, Stalin was in fact honoring his commitment
exactly as specified at Yalta.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:05:22 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT: Invasion of Attu

        To Steve New:

        Thanks for supplementing what you correctly described as a broad-brush
work with a much more detailed account of Attu-Kiska.  Just to correct an
impression I might have inadvertantly created in my two-sentence treatment of
Attu, two points:
        1. I believe I did allude to the successful Japanese delaying tactics
in sentence #1 of my post relative to Attu.
        2. I only cited the final charge of the Japanese there in the "bamboo
spear" because it seemed so appropriate in a physical sense-- I mean,
conceptually there ain't much difference between a spear and an empty,
bayoneted rifle.  My fault for tying it into a phrase I had used in a critical
sense throughout my many posts.  I agree with your analysis of the action.

        Thanks again for both reading through and responding.  I'm getting to
fill in all kinds of small information blanks just by reading the responses to
these posts.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:15:01 -0500
From:    AEZMAIL@UICVMC.BITNET
Subject: MILO SEARCH RESULTS

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 03/13/95 12:06:11  ILLINET Online search data      library: All Libraries

 Author Search: SUDOPLATOV,  sorted by Title
 All languages All material types All dates


  AUTHOR:     Sudoplatov, Pavel.
  TITLE:      Special tasks : the memoirs of an unwanted witness, a Soviet
                 spymaster / Pavel Sudoplatov and Anatoli Sudoplatov with
                 Jerrold L. and Leona P. Schecter ; foreword by Robert
                 Conquest.
  EDITION:    1st ed.
  PUBL.:      Boston : Little, Brown,
  FORMAT:     xxiii, 509 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.
  DATE:       1994
  OTHER NAME: Schecter, Jerrold L.
              Schecter, Leona.
              Conquest, Robert.
              Sudoplatov, Anatolii Pavlovich.

  SUBJECT:    Sudoplatov, Pavel.
              Soviet Union. Komitet gosudarstvennoi bezopasnosti--Officials
                 and employees--Biography.
              Intelligence officers--Soviet Union--Biography.
              Intelligence service--Soviet Union--Biography.
              Spies--Soviet Union--Biography.
              Espionage, Soviet--History--20th century.

  ISBN:       0316773522 :
  LANGUAGE:   ENGLISH
  CONTENTS:   Includes bibliographical references and index.
  RID #:      ocm30325282      (This is not a call number)

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:16:32 PST
From:    "Mark H. Walter" <mwalter@WORLD.NAD.NORTHROP.COM>
Subject: Re  Please name that gun

>A few days ago I watched a Tv program on the invasion of Russia. It also
>included original clips from the siege of Sevastopol. It was mentioned that
>Sevastopol saw some of the largest and probably strangest siege guns,
>including the here already mentioned Gustav Geraet (absolutely impressive
>to see this thing fire, although the cut at this scene was absolutel crap.).
>Apart from this huge railgun they aso showed pictures of another gun I had
>never seen or heard of before. It looked like an overdimesioned siege
>mortar, with a relative short barrel (hard to judge from the pictures, but
>from a close standing soldier I would say little more the 6m) and a huge
>caliber. Unfortunately the gun was shw only for very short times, but I
>also remember that it had THOR written on it in (pseudo-)runic letters.
>Sorry I can not give more infos, but has anybody heard of such a gun, or
>at least a book where I can look? Any help is appreciated, thanx a lot in
>advance.
>
>                                               So long
>
>                                                       Erik


This is the Morser Geraet 040, sometimes it's called the Karl Morser.
It's a 60cm self propelled siege mortar. Normally it was slung between 2
special rail cars for long distance transportation.  Modified Panzer IVs
were used as ammunition carriers, each carrier could only carry 3 or 4
(I think) of the 60cm shells.  A total of 6 were built and most were used
in the east.  Most Encyclopedia type books on German armour should have an
entry on it.  One that I have is by Chamberlin.  I think the title is
(the book is a home)  Encyclopedia of German Tanks.  Mail me if you need
more info, I can look it up a home.

                     Mark Walter    mwalter@world.nad.northrop.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:10:14 -0500
From:    Ira Krakow <ikrakow@KRAKOW.COM>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg con't

> Here we go with part two. . .
>
> The Eagle's Nest
>
> Perhaps one of the most interesting (and arguably the most famous) construction
> project in the Obersalzberg complex was the "Eagle's Nest".  Built on the
> summit of Kehlstein mountain, physically separated from the rest of the
> Obersalzberg buildings, but still within the "Fueher area".  The Eagle's
> Nest, or Tea House (the name Eagle's Nest was given by the occupying American
> forces after the war) was an engineering marvel.
>

  I've heard of something called the "Wolfschanze" (Wolf's Lair).
Is that at Obersalzberg or is it in East Prussia?  Can it be visited?
What did Hitler do there?

Ira

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:40:11 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: David Glantz's books, re: Manchuria '45, etc.

David Glantz came out with a couple of excellent analyses of the
  Soviet Manchurian operation.  He is probably the leading authority
  in the West, now, on Soviet WWII operations.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu


>  03/13/95 12:09:36  ILLINET Online search data      library: All Libraries
>
>  Author Search: GLANTZ, DAVID  sorted by Title
>  All languages All material types All dates
>
>
>    1. TITLE:  August storm : Soviet tactical and operational combat in
>                Manchuria, 1945 /                                          1983
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    2. TITLE:  August storm : the Soviet 1945 strategic offensive in Manchuria
>                /                                                          1983
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    3. TITLE:  From the Don to the Dnepr : Soviet offensive operations,
>                December 1942 - August 1943 /                              1991
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    4. TITLE:  The history of Soviet airborne forces /
>                                                                           1993
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    5. TITLE:  The initial period of war on the Eastern Front, 22 June-August
>                1941 : proceedings of the Fourth Art of War Symposium,     1992
>      AUTHOR:  Art of War Symposium 1987 : Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany)

>    6. TITLE:  The military strategy of the Soviet Union : a history /
>                                                                           1992
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    7. TITLE:  The role of intelligence in Soviet military strategy in World
>                War II /                                                   1990
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    8. TITLE:  The Soviet airborne experience /
>                                                                           1985
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>    9. TITLE:  The Soviet conduct of tactical maneuver : spearhead of the
>                offensive /                                                1991
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>   10. TITLE:  Soviet military deception in the Second World War /
>                                                                           1988
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>   11. TITLE:  Soviet military intelligence in war /
>                                                                           1990
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>   12. TITLE:  Soviet military operational art : in pursuit of deep battle /
>                                                                           1991
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

>   13. TITLE:  Soviet military strategy in the 1990s : alternative futures /
>                                                                           1991
>      AUTHOR:  Glantz, David M.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:28:19 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: P-38F armament

>Dennis,

>I received the photos of the "Glacier Girl" today.  Many thanks!  I have a
>couple of questions that I thought I'd share with the rest of the group.  I
>know I must be starting to become a nuisance on your mailbox.

>I was intrigued to see in one of the photos several M2HB, .50 caliber
>machine guns ("Ma Deuces" we called them in the modern army.  I don't know
>if this nickname was used in WWII.) in the nose cradles.  Does anyone know
>how the restoration team would have acquired these pieces of hardware?
>Don't worry anyone, I'm asking out of curiosity only.  I don't actually
>want one (though I *do* have this one neighbor who drives me absolutely
>nuts...).

>Also, can someone tell me what would have been the standard armament of a
>P-38F, as well as how it might have been configured for individual
>missions?

>Joseph Feld
>joefeld@mail.ic.net
>Ferndale, MI


Joe, et al,

I was told on several different occasions that the machine guns and the
cannon that are on display are the ones removed from the recovered
aircraft.  The guns and ammo were essentially the first things hauled
to the surface.  This was done for the safety of the crew working to
dismantle the aircraft.  I assume that there must have been a fair
amount of paperwork filed in order to allow the guns to remain with
the restored aircraft, but I didn't think to ask.

One of the technicians working on the restoration told me that the
four stainless steel ammo cans for the .50 cal m/g. were as recovered,
missing only a decal on the front of the can to indicate to the
armorer how to lay in the belts.  Enough of the decals remained to
allow him to draw how they looked, and new decals are being made.
He also indicated that the ammunition load carried on the "F" model
was 500 rounds for each of the four .50s.  He also said that this load
could be reduced by the simple expedient of placing a piece of plywood
in the bottom of the can first.  The 20mm cannon's ammunition was held
in the round drum on top of the cannon.  I don't recall exactly how many
rounds were carried, but it seems like it was around 75.

For the rest of you on the list who might be interested in seeing these
photos, Steve New has now received a set of them and is going to scan
them.  Hopefully a site will be found to store them.  Sorry, I don't
have the capability to scan or store them here.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:07:48 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: USSR in the Pacific Theater

Dear Mike,

As everyone else, much impressed with your many posts on the Pacific.
One point though- while perhaps half the Soviet forces in the Manchurian
operation were local garrison units, those that weren't came at least
6000 miles, not 3000, from Central Europe. An entire Army Front,
plus wartime loads for the garrison forces, over single and double              track line, in 90 days. I would love to see the load and running
schedules. And this from an army that four years earlier often couldn't
organize a tank column without running it into a swamp.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:57:56 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-MAR-1945

On 14-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the VII Corps regroups in
preparation for action east of the Rhine. In the III Corps area, the
Germans shift the bulk of their artillery fire from the Rhine bridges to
the infantry, but continue frequent air attacks against the bridges,
employing many jet planes. In the 3rd Army sector, the XII Corps begins to
drive from the Moselle to the Rhine. Units of the XX Corps take Heddert,
Weiskirchen, Nieder Felle and Fell. The 7th Army completes preparations for
their West Wall offensive.

Philippines - The 6th Division continues to repel small counterattacks. All
enemy efforts to mount a concerted counterattack have proved unsuccessful
and costly. The 43rd Division begins a full-scale attack against the Shimbu
line. In the 8th Army sector, the 162nd Infantry begins a converging drive
on Mt. Capisan, Mindanao.

Iwo Jima - The VAC raises the American flag on Iwo Jima at 0930. The 3rd
and 4th Marine Divisions continue to mop-up and considerably reduce pockets
in their respective sectors. The 4th Marine Division begins re-embarkation.
The 5th Marine Division renews the assault on northern Iwo Jima and gains
up to 600 yards on the right, although the left flank remains in about the
same position. Air support for the operation ends with a P-51 strike in
behalf of the 5th Marine Division.

Burma - The Indian 19th Division clears the city area of Mandaly.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:59:24 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Tin Can Sailor

Does anyone know the address, phone number or email for the magazine Tin Can
Sailor.
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 06:39:30 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: HIST: A strange American desertion

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995 THOMPSON@LVC.EDU wrote:

> In reading William L. Combs, THE VOICE OF THE SS: A HISTORY OF THE SS JOURNAL
> "DAS SCHWARZE KORPS" [Peter Lang, 1986], I came across the bizarre story of
> Martin James Monti, native of Florrisant MO, who left post in Karachi in
> October 1944 and hitched plane rides to Italy where he stole a P-38
> photo-recon plane. He flew to German-occupied territory and gave himself
> up. He allegedly then cooperated with the Germans and under the alias of
> "Cpt. Martin Wiethaupt" prepared some radio commentaries later broadcast to
> American troops. "Supposedly, Monti had acquired SS credentials by the end of
> the war when he surrendered at US Fifth Army headquarters in Milan" [p.414].
>
> There's a bit more to this weird tale. Will post if anyone is interested.
>
> -- Warren Thompson
>
> thompson@lvc.edu
>
Do tell more.  This fellow had to be a bit daft since the direction of
the war had to be pretty clear to every thinking person.  Also, it is
interesting that he was able to safely land a U.S. plane with U.S.
markings at an Axis airport.  Shades of Mathias Rust!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:41:58 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and "Victory at Sea" (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

like, it's just gotta be HMS BARHAM-- no other battlewagon rolled and
blew like she did.  By the way, that footage also appears in the
beginning of the film THE GUNS OF NAVARONE; can you imagine BARHAM losing
to a pair of 28cm fortress guns??


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Roger Coon wrote:

> Henry,
>         I believe I have seen the film segment that you mentioned and
> I think it was the HMS Barham.  I should warn you that I am dealing
> from my fuzzy and aging memory here.
> Brad Coon
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 20:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 14 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 14 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): Of 12 B-25s taking off to cover a naval task
force on its way to Matsuwa Island in the Kurile Islands, 6 abort due to
weather and failure to locate the task force; the others fly coverage sorties
throughout the day.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 3 B-24s claim 1 cargo
vessel sunk in the S China Sea; 1 B-25 and 4 fighter-bombers damage 12 track
sections near Tungyangchen; and 4 P-51s hit railroad targets of opportunity
near Chihsien. 19 P-51s and P-38s blast the barracks area at Vinh Yen, French
Indochina.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 P-47s fly close support
for elements of the Chinese 50th Division in the Mansam area; 3 B-25s knock
out a bridge at Laihka while 11 others bomb troop and a vehicle concentration
nearby; 39 P-47s hit troop concentrations, supplies and vehicles at Laihka
and Namlan while 29 others sweep roads S of the bomb line. 614 air supply
sorties are flown to forward areas. The 165th Liaison Squadron (Commando),
1st Air Commando Group, moves from Asansol, India to Sinthe, Burma with
UC-64s and L-5s and the 166th Liaison Squadron (Commando) moves from Sinthe
to Asansol with the same aircraft.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 886: 1,262 bombers and 804 fighters are dispatched to hit oil, rail
and industrial targets in Germany; they claim 17-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in
the air; 3 B-17s and 2 fighters are lost:
  1. 526 B-17s are sent to hit oil refineries at Nienhagen (58) and Misburg
(56), the Gebruder munitions plant (75) and Maschnbau (61) and Eisenwerke
(74) factories at Hannover and the Seelze marshalling yard (80); secondary
targets hit are Osnabruck (29) and the marshalling yard at Hannover; attacks
were made visually and with H2X radar; 2 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 188 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 6 WIA and 19 MIA. 192 of 204 P-51s
escort; 2 are damaged.
  2. 449 B-17s are dispatched to hit the bridges at Vlotho (72) and Bad
Ostenhausen (114), the marshalling yard and road junction at Lohne (144) and
industrial plants at Hildesheim (60); 39 hit Osnabruck, a secondary target;
targets of opportunity are the marshalling yards at Hameln (12) and Wetzlar
(1) and Diemonde (1); all but one target is bombed visually; 1 B-17 is lost
and 56 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 9 MIA. Escorting are 182 of 194 P-51s;
they claim 1-0-1 aircraft.
  3. 272 B-24s are sent to hit the marshalling yards at Holzwickede (31) and
Gutersloh (126); 110 others hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at
Giessen; attacks are made visually and with H2X radar; 4 B-24s are damaged; 1
airman is KIA and 5 WIA. The escort is 185 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 3-0-0
aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost (pilot MIA).
  4. 6 B-17s fly a screening mission without loss.
  5. 29 of 33 P-41s escort Ninth AF bombers.
  6. 50 P-51s fly a sweep of the Stein-Huder-Kassel area claiming 11-0-0
aircraft without loss.
  7. 82 P-51s fly a sweep over the Remagen bridgehead; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot
MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  8. 20 P-51s escort 33 F-5s and 3 Spitfires on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany and Czechoslovakia.
  9. 26 of 27 P-51s fly a scouting mission claiming 1-0-0 aircraft.
  Mission 887: 9 B-17s use DISNEY rockets weapons on the Ijmuiden submarine
pens without loss.
  Mission 888: 7 B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at Wiesbaden by PFF during
the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 350+ A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s hit 3 airfields, 4 rail bridges, a junction, 5 towns, and 3 targets of
opportunity as the interdiction operations continue; fighters escort the
bombers, attack railroads and other special targets, fly patrols, sweeps, and
armed reconnaissance, cover the Remagen area, and support the US XII Corps as
it begins a drive from the Mosel River to the Rhine River, and the XX Corps
operations W of Trier and Saarburg. HQ 367th Fighter Group moves from St
Dizier to Conflans, France. The 410th Fighter Squadron, 373d Fighter Group,
moves from Le Culot, Belgium to Venlo, the Netherlands with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 634 B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escorts, hit the Szony and Almasfuzito oil refineries and marshalling
yards at Komarom, Hungary; Nove Zamky, Czechoslovakia; Zagreb, Yugoslavia;
and Wiener-Neustadt, Graz, and Knittelfeld, Austria. 90 P-38s dive-bomb
bridges at Ptuj, Yugoslavia, 42 of them afterwards strafing rail traffic in
Yugoslavia and Austria. 21 P-51s also strafe rail traffic in Austria. B-17s
and B-24s drop supplies in N Italy and in Yugoslavia. F-5s continue
reconnaissance missions, including a larger than usual number of photo
reconnaissance flights (most of them heavily escorted) over Italy, Germany,
Austria, and Yugoslavia. The 71st Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, moves
from Sallsola Airfield to Lesina, Italy with P-38s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s damage bridges at
Casarsa della Delizia, Cittadella, Vipiteno, and Campo; fighters and fighter-
bombers attack communications, ammunition and supply dumps, motor transport,
trains, buildings, and other targets, escort medium bombers, and support
ground forces, operating over much of N Italy from the Apennine battle area N
and NE. A-20s hit river crossings and targets of opportunity in the Po Valley
during the night of 13/14 Mar.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 11 B-24s from Guam Island bomb Susaki Airfield on
Chichi Jima Island while 23 from Angaur Island hit a Saragani Bay supply area
on Mindanao Island. During the night of 14/15 Mar, 5 more B-24s flying
individually hit Susaki Airfield.
    VII Fighter Command: 16 Iwo Jima-based P-51s strafe and dive-bomb Susaki
Airfield, the town of Okimura on Haha Jima Island, and several gun positions
on Chichi Jima. The ground echelon of the 549th Night Fighter Squadron, VII
Fighter Command, arrives on Iwo Jima Island from Hawaii (air echelon is
operating from Saipan Island with P-61s).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
B-24s bomb the Konel area while B-25s and B-24s hit the village and AA
positions near Zamboanga and dock area at Isabela. A-20s and numerous
fighter-bombers (including some US Marine aircraft) hit installations and
defensive positions throughout Luzon Island. A-20s over Palawan Island hit
Pandanan Island. B-24s bomb the Mako, Formosa naval base. B-25s on an armed
reconnaissance and shipping sweep along the China coast bomb the secondary
targets when no ships are sighted. The 2d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 22d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Samar Island to Clark Field, Luzon with
B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

14/0148Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:48:09 -0600
From:    Bob Milan <bmilan@MINET.GOV.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front

Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell. On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Allen Witt wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm interested in reading about Russian operations on the eastern
> european front and am looking for sources. What do you folks
> recommend?
>
> The time frame is from the invasion/occupation of Poland to VE day.
>
>
> Allen Witt
> WITTA@ORAU.GOV
>

______________________________________________________________________________
Bob Milan                               E-Mail : BMilan@Minet.gov.mb.ca
Kelvin High School-Economics/History    Phone  : (204) 474-1492
155 Kingsway Ave.                       Fax    : (204) 453-2116
Winnipeg, Manitoba
CANADA  R3M OG3

______________________________________________________________________________
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands
it. ...Albert Einstein

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 20:59:06 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Dudley Morton

Rod Rupert wrote:

>What is the evidence against Dudley Morton?

In his book *Wahoo*, Morton's executive officer, Richard O'Kane, recounts an
incident of Jan. 26, 1943, in which Morton ordered life boats carrying Japanes
e survivors from a troop transport ship to be smashed with fire from a
four-inch gun. O'Kane doesn't say anything about specifically targeting the
troops, only that the life boats were destroyed and that machine gun fire was
used to "scare the troops out of the boats." O'Kane's opinion is that Morton
made the right choice because the Japanese troops, if they were pulled out of
the water, would have immediately been thrown into the battle.

Other authors have been less kind about the incident. Edwin P. Hoyt's
*Submarines at War* says Morton's patrol report details that the troops
themselves deliberately were mowed down after leaving the boats and quotes
Morton as having said, "We destroyed all the boats and most of the troops."

I've seen numerous other accounts, but this probably tells you what you want
to know. Please note that I didn't cite this incident primarily to dump on Dud
ley Morton -- although I'm deeply uncomfortable with the notion of firing on
survivors, his point about the Japanese troops coming back to haunt Allied
ground forces is well taken. It's a pretty fine line between killing them by
torpedoing their ship and killing them by shooting them with a machine gun,
anyway. What disturbs me most is that this same patrol was held up by navy
propagandists as a great, heroic venture without making any mention of the
life boat incident, and there appears to have been no investigation or
reprimand involved. Apparently the winning side doesn't have to explain
itself for such actions.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 22:10:36 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: War crimes

Lou Coatney wrote, in reference to the discussion of Dudley Morton:

> This may not have been a war crime.

> Does anyone else on the list know if shooting a bailed-out pilot in his
chute over *his* territory is actually a war crime?

Still curious about "aggressive war," I rummaged about and found the
following excerpt from *Agreement by the Government of the United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Government of the United States of
America, the Provisional Government of the Fench Republic and the Government
of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for the Prosecution and Punishment
of the Major War Criminals of the European Axis* (whew!), dated Aug. 8, 1945,
London:

"The following acts, or any of them, are crimes coming within the
jurisdiction of the Tribunal for which there shall be individual
responsibility:
     (a) Crimes against peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or
waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international
treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in in a common plan or
conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing:
     (b) War crimes: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such
violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or
deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of civilian population
of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or
persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private
property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages or devastation not
justified by military necessity:
     (c) Crimes against humanity: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement,
deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian
population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or
religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the
jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law
of the country where perpetrated."

I'm quoting this out of *The Laws of War: A Comprehensive Collection of
Primary Documents of International Laws Governing Armed Conflict*, by the
way. Looks to me like there's plenty of leeway for interpretation in this, so
I guess the answer to your question is: Can you get a favorable judge to sit
on the case?

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 22:12:32 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

John Riegsecker wrote:

> No matter how you rationalize it, I'm certain we would have tried as a
war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
thing.

I would argue that that's exactly what did happen when Doenitz was sentenced
for the *Laconia* order -- which seems to have brought us all around full circ
le to where this discussion started. :-)

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 20:15:01 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

The battleship turning turtle, with crew running across its keel, then
huge explosion...
                HMS HOOD


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 20:20:44 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

>From:         Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Mush Morton
>
>John Riegsecker wrote:
>
>> No matter how you rationalize it, I'm certain we would have tried as a
>war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
>thing.
>
>I would argue that that's exactly what did happen when Doenitz was sentenced
>for the *Laconia* order -- which seems to have brought us all around full circ
>le to where this discussion started. :-)

One more twist (so maybe its a mobius band).

While Nimitz was Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Karl Doenitz, former
commander of the German submarine force, was tried before the
International Military Tribunal in Nurnberg for, among other offenses,
conducting unretricted submarine warfare.  At the request of Doenitz's
attorney, Nimitz provided an affidavit stating that, on orders from
Washington, submarines under his command had conducteed the same sort of
warfare: "In the interest of operations against Japan, the Pacific Ocean
was declared an opertional area.  On December 7, 1941, the Chief of
Naval Operations had ordered unrestricted submarine warfare against
Japan."

     _Nimitz_, E.B. Potter.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Mar 1995 to 13 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 44 messages totalling 1882 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Obersalzberg con't
  2. Capsizing/exploding battleship:  HMS ??????
  3. Pearl Harbor questions
  4. Eagle's Nest
  5. Obersalzberg Pt 3
  6. NOST:UK Sites
  7. INF: USN Chronology 03-14-95
  8. INF: There a War to be Won
  9. Seattle Area Sites (4)
 10. Generals
 11. Obersalzberg Pt 4 (3)
 12. Micro nations during WW2, part one--Tannu Tuva
 13. Obersalzberg, Part 5
 14. Ref: Defense of Truman
 15. Aggressive Warfare
 16. HIST: A strange American desertion (3)
 17. TAC: Enterprise Green (2)
 18. Soviet operations against Japanese in Manchuria
 19. Soviets in Manchuria (conclusion)
 20. HIST: Strange American desertion ... conclusion
 21. TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS (2)
 22. Intro and questions
 23. Soviets/Manchuria
 24. MEDIA:Return to Iwo Jima
 25. MEDIA:Wreath Laying Ceremony
 26. HOME:FRANCE - "une victoire intellectualle"
 27. ADMIN: POLITICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS
 28. Soviet invasion of Sth Sakhalin
 29. [INF] USAAF 15 MAR 45
 30. INF: 50 Years Ago - 15-MAR-1945
 31. WW II List subscription info (2)
 32. Mush Morton
 33. Doenitz
 34. QUES: Mountbatten pink

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 22:40:39 -0600
From:    "Jeff J. Dingbaum" <dingbaum@HEP.NET>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg con't

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, COL Donnell, Doug wrote:

>
> The Eagle's Nest
>
> To construct it a four mile long road was blasted out of solid rock, with
> many hairpin turns and small tunnels.  That led to a parking area from which
> a tunnel was dug 150 feet into the mountain to a shaft rising 350 feet to
> the top of the mountain.

The only way to even aproach the complex is by tour bus.  They will take
you up the road (another bus comes down at the same time and they meet in
only one spot along the way.) There are two or three spots where you go
through short tunnels and if you look closely you can see massive door
hinges still embedded in the rock on EACH side of every tunnel.  It would
have taken quite an effort to get up that road!

The first thing you see entering the tunnel is the date on top (1938 if
my memory is any good).  You walk down the dimly lit tunnel and you can
almost feel Hitler walking next to you.  It is really eerie.  According
to the tour guides he was fond of walking the tunnel, but not so enamored
of the elevator.

>
> The Tea House itself is not particularly large.  It consists of a dining room,
> large tea room, study, kitchen, guard room , rest room, washrooms, and a
> basement.  Most rooms are lined with pine or elm wood.
>

The fireplace in the great room was one thing that struck me.  It was a
reddish marble? that also had the date carved in it.  Unfortunately,
souvenier hunters have hacked away, but it still adds to the aura of the
room.

This site doesn't have all of the whiz bang planes, boats, etc, but it, along
with Dachau, were two places that I will always remember about my honeymoon
trip to Germany.  ( Along with that fantastic chicken they serve at October
fest!!!!)

Doug, Thanks for the excellent postings.


Jeff Dingbaum
dingbaum@hep.net

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 23:37:29 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Capsizing/exploding battleship:  HMS ??????

*Not* HOOD, Sid.  KGV was a good distance away, and the bow
  of HOOD broke off and sailed on apiece after the explosion.

The battleship which capsizes and erupts *is* BARHAM, sunk
  by 3 torpedoes from a U-boot.  It does have the HOOD's
  main armament up front 2x2 15" guns, and it is easy to
  confuse the ships, end-on (although, from the side, BARHAM
  was *much* shorter).

There are also shots of a battleship with 2x3 guns capsizing.
  I believe that is a WWI shot of one of the excellent
  Austro-Hungarian battleships going down after being torpedoed
  by an Italian torpedoboat.

The other spectacular shot of a battleship's destruction, of
  course, is ARIZONA blowing up after being hit by a horizontal
  bomber at Pearl Harbor.

Pity that the world's governments/navies have never invested
  enough in photographers and cameras to be sure of getting
  shots of the key episodes, like the sinking of BISMARCK,
  YAMATO, etc.  Surely, there was Japanese footage of the
  destruction of the Kido Butai at Midway.  I wonder if they
  were destroyed during the war incidentally or intentionally.

It really gets exasperating to see films having to use the
  same, inaccurate footage for whatever battle scenes.  Maybe
  computer imagery is sufficient, now, for animation more
  realistic than the traditional models.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:24:54 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor questions

Louis - you asked about scorpions in Hawaii.  I  am not aware of any,
but if they are here they would not be indiginous.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:50:12 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Eagle's Nest

A follow up to yesterday's post. .

Jeff, you remembered correctly.  The large fireplace in the tea room (and it
IS a VERY large fireplace is made of red Italian marble.

Total cost of the Eagle's nest/Tea Room was RM30 million.

Following the war the terrace was enlarged.

Construction on the project was completed in two years, working only from
May till October.

Apparently, there were quite a number of constuction accidents, given the
speed with which work progressed (under great pressure from Bormann), and
several workers were killed or injured.

                            Doug

Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:11:30 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Obersalzberg Pt 3

As the war dragged on and Allied air raids became more and more common,
Bormann decided that a bunker system should be constructed on the
Obersalzberg.  What started out to be simple air raid shelters turned
into a major undertaking.  By the time everyone had what they wanted
(air conditioning, carpets, machine gun emplacements, custom made
cabinets, paneling, etc), over two miles of tunnels had been built.
Goering had had a separate air raid shelter built and now asked that
he be connected to the main system.  Bormann refused, so Goering's
still remains separated from the rest.  Construction continued on the
main tunnel complex.  Eva Braun wanted (and got) her own bathroom.
Special storage rooms were built to house pictures, records, and books.
A complete kitchen and refrigeration system was installed.  Bormann, of
course, did an exceptional job of taking care of himself.  His spaces
included and inlaid floor covered with oriental rugs, paneling, laquered
doors, and enough food to last 200 years.

Stats:  Total length of corredors - 2775 meters;  Total number of rooms -
79; total area 4120 sq meters.

(please excuse spelling errors. . .I get a bit heavy handed at times)

More to follow. . .

                          Doug

Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:40:26 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST:UK Sites

Last week Chris asked about UK sites.  One of the British NCOs stationed here
picked up some info on various UK sites but only one relates to WWII.  I'll
send the whole package Chris if you want it, just e-mail me your address.

Of interest to the list might be the Cabinet War Rooms.  Descrition from
the brochure:

Located in the basement of a government building in the heart of ceremonial
London, the Cabinet War Rooms were hurriedly converted on the eve of
the Second World War as emergency underground accommodation to protect the
Prime Minister and the British Government against air attack.  In operational
use from 27 August 1939 to the Japanese surrender in 1945, these rooms
were to become the vital nerve-centre used to Winston Churchill, his War
Cabinet and the Chiefs of Staff of Britain's armed forces during the
greatest threat to its continuing existence that the nation has ever
known.

Today, visitors can view the original complex of twenty-one historic
rooms, and marvel at the spartan conditions endured by those who
worked in them, preserved exactly as they were before the lights were
finally extinguished after six years of war.

Open daily 1000am to 6 pm (last admission 5:15 pm).  Closed 24-26 dec.

Entrance to the Cabinet War Rooms is on Horse Guards Road overlooking St
James Park with special access by lift and full facilities for the disabled.

Adults: L3.90, Children (5-16 years) L1.90, senior citizens L3.00, students
and registered unemployed: L2.80, Family ticket (2 adults and up to 3 children
L10.00).

All visitors are provided with a free step-by-step personal sound guide
avaiable in English, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.

Personal note:  I had the good fortune to visit shortly after it opened.
Very interesting and well worth the time.

                            Doug Donnell

Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-14-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/14 Wed. Submarine ROCK (SS-274) lands supplies on Lombok
           Island, Netherlands East Indies.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:08:19 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: INF: There a War to be Won

For James Ray Watkins ,


There are parts of the book that deal with training and the lack of adequate
training but I don't remember how much. The book is out on an interfamily loan
so I can't check into it.


Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:59:58 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Seattle Area Sites

Ft. Lewis Museum open 1200-1600 Tuesday thru Sunday.
Closed on all Mondays AND Federal Holidays.
Tel: 206-967-7206
Located in Fort Lewis WA, off I-5.
The two themes of the museum are "Soldiers of the
Northwest" in one gallery and "Seventh ID" Gallery as
well as gallery honoring the First Corps presently
garrisoned at Fort Lewis. Enjoy.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:01:04 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Generals

Truscott was given only praise by Bradley, both of whom regarded the second
amphibious, August 11th assault of the 2nd Battaliion, 30th Inf Regt, 3rd Inf
Div to be poorly timed. Seveth Army (Patton) had not supplied aerial photos
and therefore a number of drainage ditches were not discovered until Truscott's
artillery were basically trapped on the beach. The landing went off without
detection, however, until a passing motorcyclist was shot on the coast road
by whom Bradley calls, "a squad of jittery riflemen". Truscott fought head-on
with the Germans in order to get his land forces to the beachhead.

-Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:52:39 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Obersalzberg Pt 4

Work continued on the Obersalzberg throughout the war with various improvements
and construction projects going on virtually all the time.

On Wednesday, 25 April 1945 came the beginning of the end.  At 0930 people in
the area were alerted to take cover and went into the air raid shelters.
30 minutes later the first wave of RAF Lancasters began dropping 1000 lb
bombs.  About 30 minutes after the first wave another wave began an hour
long bombardment which destroyed or damaged the majority of the structures
on the Obersalzberg.  One side of Hitler's Berghof was destroyed and extensive
damage was done to Goring and Bormann's houses.  The SS barracks and
Platterhof were badly damaged and the entire area was heavily cratered.

The SS Commander withdrew, having made the decision not to defend the
area and almost immediately extensive looting began -- as people carted
off the vast quantities of food, clothing, and other goods that had been
stored in the complex.  On May 4, the remaining SS troops poured gasoline
on the remains of the Berghof and set it afire.  That same day, the
first Allied soldiers entered Berchtesgaden about 4 in the afternoon,
siezing the town and taking about 2000 prisoners.  On May 5 the American
flag was raised over the Berghof.

(There's an interesting story of an altercation between the French and
American leadership, the French having arrived in Berchtesgaden shortly
after the Americans, but I'll save that for another time).

In the days following Germany's surrender, the Obersalzberg and Berchtesgaden
area became a premier tourist attraction for the occupying troops.  All
or I should say many, of the remaining undamaged buildings became billets
as the area was turned into a sort of rest and relaxation center.  As many
as 3000 people a day (and 10000 on Sundays) came to see the Obersalzberg.

There were plenty of attractions.  Quoting from "After the Battle, no 9"

"In an inn at Unterstein, about half-way between Berchtesgaden and the
lake [Koingsee], was another tourist attraction.  A sign hanging outside,
'The Hermann Goering Art Collection -- through courtesy of the 101st
Airborne Division', explained the contents.

The art treasures had been found in a sealed tunnel near Berchtesgaden.
Nearby had also been Goering's private train with its luxurious double
bed sleeping rooms, tiled bathrooms, and lounge cars.  The train was
pulled out on a siding and became an attraction in its own right.  Hitler's
four ton aromured Mercedes-Benz touring car was picked up and
replaced General Taylog's jeep.  Colonel Sink got from place to place in
Goering's roadster, another mammoth armoured affair.

Among the other outstanding finds was a cache of approximately
$4,080,000 in twenty six different currencies.  This was dug up May 23 in
a barn near St Johann and was supposed to have been a private fund buried
for Heinrich Himmler.

More coming soon. . .

                             Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:39:18 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Micro nations during WW2, part one--Tannu Tuva

Tannu Tuva, that forgotten paradise of the western Gobi, retained its
neutrality status during the Second World War, though sympathies
certainly lay with the Soviet Union; the Tuvans (or Tuvinians)
supplied the Soviet war machine with no fewer than 40,000 horses and 600,000
cattle, quite an accomplishment for a nation with an estimated
population in 1941 of only 95,000.  On the other hand, sources are
unclear as to how spontaneous these wondrous gifts truly were-- a branch
office of the Soviet GPU (precursor of the NKVD) had been established in
Kyzyl [also known as Kyzyl Khoto], the nation's capital back in the mid
1920's under the auspices of that noted Soviet Mongol A. Shoizhelov,
much of whose illustrious career was spent under the nom de guerre [as it
were] of Natsov.

It is believed the Tuvinian "People's Revolutionary Army" (its formal title)
maintained a state of armed neutrality throughout the war years, although
there is no evidence to suggest that there was any significant increase
of local forces, which had peaked at an all-time high back in 1929 of
1,600 men.  Tuvinian military strength rested with its mounted
squadrons-- hardly surprising, since the Tuvinian Peoples Revolutionary
Army had been founded back in 1924 on the heels, or rather hooves, of the
various Soviet cavalry columns that "visited" the country on the
invitation (and support) of the local GPU office.  Little, if any
mechanisation of the Tuvinian forces appears to have been done during
this time; a 1944 national survey reported only 42 (!!) agricultural
tractors extant (also 18 tractor-drawn and 52 horse-drawn threshers, just
in case anyone's wondering).

Tannu Tuva did not participate per se [sic?] in the Soviet invasion of
Japanese-held Manchuria (i.e. Manchukuo), as the Tuvinian people, or at
least the over 4,500 members of the Tuvinian "People's Revolutionary
Party" (another formal name--hey, you think I'm making this stuff up?)
requested admission into the Soviet Union on 17th August 1944, a wish
that was granted when the Republic of Tannu Tuva merged with the Soviet
Union on 13th October 1944.  Tragically, few people outside the local
region noticed this, and since only the Soviet Union and the Mongolian
Peoples Republic had ever formally recognised Tannu Tuva as an
independent nation and established legations at Kyzyl, the rest of the
world's first inkling of these developments came TWO YEARS LATER when the
Soviet Government made a public announcement of these events on 17th
August 1946.  The Tuvinian Peoples Revolutionary Army was reported as
disbanded following the great Soviet merger; it is not known whether any
hardy individuals from this gallant force accompanied the Soviets in the
August 1945 campaign.

In case anyone's interested (like if anyone's even still reading this far
into this posting, right?), only ONE European is known to have visted
Tannu Tuva during its brief exisitence as an independent nation.  That
was one Otto Maenchen-Helfen, a German social democrat who visited the
country around 1929; he even wrote a book about his visit--

REISE INS ASIATISCHE TUWA
(Berlin, der Bucherkreis GmBH, 1931)

well worth the read.......


hokay, one down; now I've got to get that verraechte entry on
Liechenstein transcribed---someday......



                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:18:47 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Obersalzberg, Part 5

Continuing where I left off (work keeps getting in the way of this). . .

Another fund of 900,000 Reichmarks was dug up on May 30 at Ruhpolding-Zell.

End of quote

Today many of the remaining buildings on the Obersalzberg belong to the US
Army which operates a recreation area for military personnel [without
using tax dollars, I might add].  The former Platterhof hotel was rennovated
and became the Gen Walker Hotel.  Most of the buildings damaged in the air
raid were torn down and little, if any, remains of them.  Hitler's Berghof
or what was left of it, was blown up by a demolition team on April 30, 1952,
before the area was again opened to the public.  All that remains is the
garage.  The bunker system still exists, but is sealed except for some
small portions which can be accessed for tours.  As I mentioned before, the
Eagles Nest was untouched in the air raid and is use today as a tea house
(owned by the Bavarian gov't but leased to a private contractor).

The buildings owned by the US military will be given back to the German
government late this year.   The details of this action were previously
posted.

Again, on a personal note, I'll be taking my family down for a few days
stay at the Gen Walker Hotel in April.  I'll add any further observations
I might have when I return.

                                Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:32:41 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Ref: Defense of Truman

As I have mentioned before, Northeast Missouri State University is in
the process of trying to change our name to Truman State University.  At
present, the bill making this happen has cleared the Missouri House of
Representatives committee and is waiting for vote by the full house and
Senate.

Several attempts have been made to usurp this process, and several
letter to the editor have appear from the World Peace Group, Missouri
Socialist Party, nesty International, etc opposing the change.  I am
attempting to take the wind out of some of their sails by disputing
facts in one particular letter, which stated the japanese were A-bombed
depsite showing signs they wanted to end the war.

I am looking for factual errors, or perhaps better wording for sentences
to make the point more direct.  I think these attempts against Truman
are revisionism at their worst, and a disservice to a great man.

Dear Sirs,

I have been watching this debate regarding the proposed name change of
NMSU with amazement at some of the things that have been said regarding
Harry Truman, primarily his decision to drop the Atomic Bomb on Japan.
I would like to point out one glaring error in a column I saw.

One stated that we dropped the atomic bomb on a country already showing
interest in peace.  While there were factions within Japan showing
interest in ending the war, these groups were not decisive in the
government.  The Japanese made one attempt to contact the U.S. using
Russia as a third party.  This effort reached Stalin, who did not pass
the information along, primarliy due to his planned land grabbing invasi
on against the Japanese.  This information was picked up by the U.S.
Intelligence services via a broken code, however it could not be
formally acknowledged by the U.S. leadership.  Acknowledging the
information would show compromise of the japanese code, and probably cut
off this invaluable life saving source of information for the Allies.
This information was also one thousands of cables read and the significa
nce of it was not seen due to the fog of war.  It was seen as diplomatic
chatter, not serious dialogue.

A second attempt was directed to Allen Dulles, the OSS station chief in
Vienna.  This attempt, made by low level diplomats, claimed they could c
ontact peace factions within Japan.  The U.S. government rated this atte
mpt as not serious nor worth consideration since it offered factions and
not the Government of Japan proper.  It was rebuffed.

If the Japanese were so interested inpeace why didn't they just contact
the U.S. government directly?  Why didn't they announce it on Tokyo Radi
o, the method used to surrender?  The turth is that only factions were
interested in peace, and they were not dominant in the government.  It t
ook three events to bring serious discussion to stopping the war--Hirosh
ima, the Russian invasion of Manchuria, and Nagasaki.  Even after this t
his the Japanese leadership still gridlocked over the decision to surren
der.  Only midnight intervention by the Emporer forced the surrender
on the hawk elements, ending this imperialistic war of aggression waged
by the Japanese.

People writing these columns are reading history backwards.  They are lo
oking for specific examples of peace initiatives spread far across the g
lobe and them together looking for a conspiracy.  This is revisionism at
it's worst.  At a time when Kamakazies crashed into U.S. ships, and thou
sands were dying on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, these items were invisible in
the big picture of the war.  Only looking backwards can see them as sign
ificant.  The decision to drop the Atomic Bomb saved hundreds of
thousands of U.S. and Japanese lives compared to Operations Olympic and
Coronet, the Allied invasion plan.  If we had not dropped the atomic
bomb the population of the U.S. and Japan would both be thinner due to
lost generation that followed.  Many of us would not be reading this
paper today for our grandfathers or fathers would have died during the w
inter of 1945-6 storming Japan.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:46:56 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg Pt 4

On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, COL Donnell, Doug wrote:
>
> Among the other outstanding finds was a cache of approximately
> $4,080,000 in twenty six different currencies.  This was dug up May 23 in
> a barn near St Johann and was supposed to have been a private fund buried
> for Heinrich Himmler.

Who got the money?!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:15:14 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Aggressive Warfare

Hello, William!

If the
> tribunal came to their decision on this basis, that he was CINC, I wonder
> why they would think he was guilty of waging an aggressive war three years
> after it had started.

    These charges against Admiral Doenitz may be grounded in the way
and in the aggressiveness in which the submarine war was waged
against England and the United States. This is the only idea that
comes to my mind, even though he was doing nothing else any other
combattant country was doing at the time.

    My two cents' worth anyway.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:24:05 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: HIST: A strange American desertion

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:36:26 -0500,
THOMPSON@LVC.EDU  <THOMPSON@LVC.EDU> wrote:

>In reading William L. Combs, THE VOICE OF THE SS: A HISTORY OF THE SS JOURNAL
>"DAS SCHWARZE KORPS" [Peter Lang, 1986], I came across the bizarre story of
>Martin James Monti

SNIP SNIP SNIP

I"d be very interested, bring on the info...
                                  TIA,
                                     Mike Oaks

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:50:36 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seattle Area Sites

>From:         Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
>Subject:      Seattle Area Sites
>X-To:         wwii-l%ubvm.bitnet@brl.mil
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>
>Ft. Lewis Museum open 1200-1600 Tuesday thru Sunday.
>Closed on all Mondays AND Federal Holidays.
>Tel: 206-967-7206
>Located in Fort Lewis WA, off I-5.
>The two themes of the museum are "Soldiers of the
>Northwest" in one gallery and "Seventh ID" Gallery as
>well as gallery honoring the First Corps presently
>garrisoned at Fort Lewis. Enjoy.


You can't just walk in.  The guard will stop you and you need to get some
paper work done.  I would call first and make certain of the procedures first.
My only visit was when I already had a pass onto the base for other
business.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:25:12 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: HIST: A strange American desertion

>In reading William L. Combs, THE VOICE OF THE SS: A HISTORY OF THE SS JOURNAL
>"DAS SCHWARZE KORPS" [Peter Lang, 1986], I came across the bizarre story of
>Martin James Monti, native of Florrisant MO, who left post in Karachi in
>October 1944 and hitched plane rides to Italy where he stole a P-38
>photo-recon plane. He flew to German-occupied territory and gave himself
>up. He allegedly then cooperated with the Germans and under the alias of
>"Cpt. Martin Wiethaupt" prepared some radio commentaries later broadcast to
>American troops. "Supposedly, Monti had acquired SS credentials by the end of
>the war when he surrendered at US Fifth Army headquarters in Milan" [p.414].
>
>There's a bit more to this weird tale. Will post if anyone is interested.
>
Yes, do. It's weird alright; by Oct of 1944 everyone could see how it would
end. Nothing like joining the losing side... makes you wonder about his
reason[s].

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 13:02:42 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: TAC: Enterprise Green

        In August and September 1940, while a large German force was being
assembled in the Channel ports to invade England, a smaller force was also
being assembled for a similar operation.  The target of this force was
Ireland and the Germans showed uncharacteristic irony when they named the
operation Enterprise Green.

        German interests in Ireland lay in several considerations.  First,
the Luftwaffe could operate over every square mile of England, Wales, and
Scotland (as well as Northern Ireland) from airfields in Ireland.  This
would have had a significant impact on the Battle of Britain since the
western sanctuaries used by the RAF would now have been targets.  E-boats
and U-boats would have had easier access to the Irish Sea, increasing the
interdiction of British supplies and placing a further strain on the Royal
Navy.  Further, Great Britain would have had a more difficult time
anticipating an invasion since it could have come from the west as well
as the south.

        The Germans also hoped to use the Irish government's foreign
policy to expedite the invasion.  The Irish armed forces numbered less
than 8,000 regulars with another 4,300 poorly equipped reservists with
no tanks and 16 obsolete aircraft.  As a result, Ireland could not
hope to meet any invaders at the beaches and drive them off.  Rather
the Irish defense lay in promising to cooperate with the second force
that was bound to invade Ireland.  In this way, they hoped to play the
Germans and the British off each other.  However, the Germans tried to
goad England into invading Ireland by returning two prominent leaders
of the IRA to Ireland to instigate unrest.  The Germans also leaked
details of the invasion to the British indicating that the invasion
was imminent.

        The British took the threat seriously enough that Churchill
had ordered that any German landings in Ireland were to be met with
poison gas.  More critical, though, was that the War Office had ordered
Bernard Montgomery's 3rd Division, the only fully equipped infantry
division in England at the time, to prepare to take Cork and the land
around Cork Harbor.  This would have played nicely for the Germans since
they intended to land between Dungarvan and Wexford which lay to the
northeast of Cork.  Not only would Britain have one less division to
defend Britain when Operation Sealion took place but the British troops
in Cork would have had to cross hilly terrain to engage the Germans who
would have outnumbered the British.  Historically, Montgomery was loath
to attack without overwhelming superiority, so one could easily visualize
the 3rd division withering on the vine in Cork as the Germans moved north
toward Dublin.

        Obviously, the British never did take the bait and Enterprise
Green never occurred.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
How can you be the communications officer when you aren't communicatin'?
You're more like a military censor!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 13:07:25 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg Pt 4

Peter E. Beal <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH> writes:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, COL Donnell, Doug wrote:
>>
>> Among the other outstanding finds was a cache of approximately
>> $4,080,000 in twenty six different currencies.  This was dug up May 23 in
>> a barn near St Johann and was supposed to have been a private fund buried
>> for Heinrich Himmler.
>
> Who got the money?!

        I suspect that Kelly's Heroes swooped in and grabbed it after their
bank heist in Claremont!  :-)
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
I thought I told you to get me a good-lookin'
kid -- not this fat, sausage-chewin' wino!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 12:09:39 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seattle Area Sites

American Eagles Hobby Shop is *the* hobby shop in the
  Northwest, for modelmaker, wargamer, and/or historian/
  reader.

Mike, the owner, flew a MiG-15 out of Hungary in the 50s.
  He and his family were personal friends of Adolph Galland.
  We were having a nice conversation, one day, and he mentioned
  how his family had lost all their vast landholdings to the
  Communists, upon the postwar takeover.  I wondered aloud
  why his people hadn't been exterminated as "class enemies."
  The atmosphere chilled a bit, after that, unfortunately.

If you drop by, tell Mike that the (former) Alaska wargame
  designer says "Hi!"  :-)

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:25:18 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Soviet operations against Japanese in Manchuria

        Well, I guess this post makes it an appropriate full circle.  Looking
back on the items I saved to paper, I notice that my first lengthy diatribe on
Japan was an outline of Japanese politico-military strategy in which I opined
that fear of the Soviet military potential was a driving force in shaping the
world view of the Japanese Army command.  So it seems somewhat fitting that I
should type the following "sequel" in which the Japanese Army's worst fears
came true in spades, and were shown to be quite valid.  The material force a
mobilized and aroused USSR could deploy against the Japanese in Manchuria was
indeed overwhelming, and terrible to behold (at least from the Japanese point
of view).
        At the Yalta Conference between Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill
(February 1945), the Soviets agreed, in response to an American request, to
enter the war against Japan no later than three months after the conclusion of
hostilities in Europe.  Previously the Japanese and the Soviets had been bound
by a mutual neutrality pact which both sides had generally honored, as there
were advantages to both parties (not least of which, on the Soviet side, was
the ability to have ships flying the Russian flag travel unmolested through
Japanese-controlled waters to Soviet Pacific ports carrying Lend-Lease
materials from the US).  In April the Soviet government issued a statement
renouncing the pact, which should have clued the Japanese in to the impending
action of the USSR.  The Japanese, however, continued to try using the services
of the Soviet Union as an intermediary for peace feelers to the west, but
were rebuffed at almost every turn (although this did not completely
disillusion the Japanese diplomats as to their chances of negotiating terms
through the USSR).
        Stalin had been aware of the potential request from the western Allies
to join in their war on Japan, and had the Soviet staff undertake preliminary
studies on the requirements of such a campaign in the fall of 1944.  Concrete
preparations did not however get underway until after Yalta.  They then
proceeded at a fairly intense pace.  Almost immediately upon the surrender of
Germany in May 1945 the Soviet military machine began dedicating almost all of
its energies to the immense redeployment for fighting the Japanese in
Manchuria.  The scope of the undertaking was incredible, especially in terms of
logistic preparations.  The Russians were determined to employ their best
troops, equipment, and commanders to ensure a rapid and successful campaign.
This meant transferring some of their most experienced combat units from the
European theatre clear across Siberia to their new area of operations.  I
earlier said that involved moving troops over 3,000 miles.  Henry Sirotin
pointed out that I underestimated the distance (given off the top of my head)
and he was right-- according to Soviet sources most of the troops redeployed
from Europe had to travel 4,000-5,000 miles, and this included stretches where
for hundreds of miles the railway was a single track.  As Henry said, I'd love
to see the rail schedules for that one.  Nonetheless, the Soviets accomplished
a remarkable feat in moving 39 divisions and brigades, with most of their
equipment, over those immense distances in a space of barely three months.
This stunt was not pulled off without some difficulties.  The United States was
requested (according to Marshal Vasilevsky) to help by shipping a fair
proportion of the motor vehicles and some additional locomotives straight to
the Soviet Pacific ports by sea (thus the Japanese by scrupulously adhering--
for a change-- to their agreements with the Soviets helped to implement the
very build-up which crushed one of their most powerful armies).   Even with
this assistance some motorized units had to detrain and cover up to the last
700 miles to their concentration areas in their own vehicles (and this did not
include the 150-200 miles to the actual front that all units did under their
own power as a tactical movement).  Still, the feat was pretty awe-inspiring.
By July some 136,000 railway cars full of men, weapons, equipment, and supplies
had been shipped.  By the first week of September 1945 1,692 trains had
departed European Russia for the Manchurian theatre.
        For the Soviets meant to hit hard with their best forces.  Because they
expected to fight their way through heavily fortified frontier areas, two
entire armies which had experience in attacking fortified zones were
transferred in their entirety from Prussia.  The elite 5th Guards Tank Army was
pulled from Prague to the Manchurian frontier.  The most capable and highest
ranking commanders were placed in charge of the operation.  The Soviet
commander in the Far East for this operation was Marshal Aleksandr Vasilevsky,
chief of the Soviet general staff and Deputy Commissar for Defense since 1942.
Vasilevsky had personally made an extensive on-the-spot study of the theatre as
early as May, accompanied by a high-powered staff.  Admiral Nikolai Kuznetsov,
chief of the naval staff, was in charge of all naval operations in the Far
East, and Air Marshal Novikov, commander of the Soviet Air Force, was
responsible for all air matters.  These staff arrangements whereby the ranking
officers of each service were given overall command in the Far East were put in
place due to the huge area involved and the distance from Moscow.  Only
Stalin's top military deputies could be entrusted with the relative
independence operations in this theatre would require.
        Material too was first-rate.  As early as April 1945, the Soviets had
sent 670 new T-34 tanks to the Far East (these were the newer model T-34's,
with 85-mm guns and frontal armor 90-mm thick).  A number of the super-heavy
Stalin tanks were also deployed for this operation (122-mm gun; armor
160-200-mm thick: by comparison, the Japanese Chi-Ha tank carried 25-mm [one
inch] of frontal armor, the Chi-He 50-mm, and both mounted a 47-mm gun).  The
air units in the Far East were receiving hundreds of the newest Soviet
aircraft, such as the Lavochkin La-7 fighter, which was considerably faster
than any Japanese fighter plane, had three very fast-firing 20-mm cannon, and
boasted superb dogfighting maneuverability.  By the start of the offensive, the
Soviet forces amounted to one and a half million men, with over 26,000
artillery pieces and heavy mortars, some 5,500 tanks and self-propelled armored
assault guns, and 3,800 aircraft.  Included in the operation, in fact playing
an integral role, was the Soviet Pacific Fleet under Admiral Yumash.  This
naval force had 427 various warships, including two new cruisers which had been
constructed in the east during the war, one flotilla leader, ten regular
destroyers, and 78 submarines.  The Pacific Fleet's air arm totalled over 1,500
planes, and thousands of Russian marines would also participate in the
operation. (NOTE: the cruisers were 8,800 tons, mounting 180-mm [7.1-inch]
guns; a flotilla leader was an extra-large destroyer, the Soviet ships being of
either French or Italian design, coming in at over 3,000 tons, most mounting
five 130-mm guns.  Both the 130-mm and the 180-mm guns were specially developed
by the Soviet Navy and exhibited exceptional range for their calibre).  In
addition to the Soviet forces themselves, the armed forces of the Mongolian
Peoples' Republic under Marshal Choibalsan would also participate.  A special
mixed group of Soviet and Mongolian mechanized units and cavalry would operate
on the right flank of the main thrust against the Japanese.  The Russians also
had the goodwill, if not necessarily the active support, of the Chinese
Communists under Mao, who now controlled areas of northern China inhabited by
some 100 million people, and more or less adjacent to the main theatre of
operations.
        The Japanese Kwantung Army which would absorb most of the blow was no
longer the same elite formation it had been in the 1930's, but it was still a
force to be reckoned with.  Although a number of the best units had been
gradually siphoned off to the south to fight the western allies, the Japanese
still retained 24 divisions in Manchuria alone, and another seven in Korea.  In
numbers, at least, these were still at something like full strength (in fact,
the Japanese had been actively recruiting from Japanese and local civilians to
flesh out their formations).  The Japanese also had eight infantry and one tank
brigade in the Manchurian-Korean theatre of operations.
The Soviets credit the Japanese and allied forces
with a total strength of 900,000 men, possessing 1,000 tanks (this figure would
almost certainly have to include two-man "tankettes" and possibly armored cars
in order to be accurate-- I have not had the opportunity to check these numbers
against the Japanese figures, but will say that the Japanese and Soviet figures
agree almost exactly on the number of Japanese divisions present).  The
Japanese were also reckoned to have 1,800 military aircraft and over 5,000
various pieces of artillery.  The numbers for manpower include the puppet
armies of Manchukuo and Inner Mongolia, reckoned at a strength equal to eight
infantry and seven horse cavalry divisions, plus 14 brigades (including two
horse cavalry).  Except for the one Japanese division and a few smaller units
of the "Mongolia Garrison Army" and perhaps some of the Mongolian cavalry, the
actual combat potential of these allied forces was however negligable, and most
did little if any actual fighting.  Although many of the most experienced
officers and men had long been transferred out of Manchuria to other
battlefields (Marshal Meretskov disingenuously alludes to this as a sort of
training program to get combat experience for the Kwantung Army, as if these
men were later returned to Manchuria-- of course, most were not), at the high
command level the Japanese still had a high degree of experience, starting with
the commander in Manchuria, General Otozo Yamada.  His chief-of-staff, Lt-Gen
Hikosaburo Hata (not to be confused, of course, with Field Marshal Shunroku
Hata, former Japanese commander in China), had previously served as deputy
chief of the Imperial General Staff, and before that, ironically, had been
Japanese military attache in Moscow (BTW, when serving as deputy chief-of-staff
Hata had been on the receiving end of a tirade from Tojo for his "defeatist"
attitude when he correctly predicted to the Prime Minister, after returning
from an inspection tour of the Burma front, that the proposed Imphal offensive
of 1944 would not succeed).
        The physical characteristics of the Manchurian theatre also lent
strength to the Japanese defense.  The province-- roughly equal in size to the
entire US Pacific seaboard of California, Oregon, and Washington--  had been
intensively developed by the Japanese for the past 15 years, and featured
considerable internal communications.  In 1945 there were in Manchuria alone
more than 13,000 miles of roads, almost 7,000 miles of railroad track, and some
400 airfields.  Furthermore, the mining and industries which had been the
object of Japan's occupation of the province gave the Kwantung Army its own
self-contained supply source for most of the items it needed (and the 31
million inhabitants grew a fair amount of food as well).  The geographic
location and shape of Manchuria was less fortunate, as the province projected
like a thick neck between the jaws of Soviet-occupied territory, thus inviting
deep encircling penetrations.  However, the Japanese, with their long-standing
fear of Russian expansionism, had over the years constructed extensive zones of
fortifications covering their frontiers.  There were 17 such fortified zones in
Manchuria proper, each zone covering 12 to 60 miles of frontier, and built up
to a depth of about 25 miles.  Within these zones were mazes of bunkers,
machinegun and artillery emplacements, with reinforced concrete walls three
feet thick, interconnected by underground tunnels, protected by minefields,
tank traps, and other obstacles.  These fortress areas, if avoided, would tend
to split up and dangerously channel any Soviet offensive operations.  But the
Russians, realizing this, decided to tackle several of the fortified zones head
on, and made elaborate preparations for doing so.  There were also four more
fortified zones in northern Korea, and a series of similar fortifications along
the border separating (Russian-occupied) northern and (Japanese) southern
Sakhalin Island.
        Soviet preparations for attacking this in many ways formidable
defensive system included not only the concentration of intimidating masses of
men and weapons, but also considerable training for the operation in question
carried out over a period of two months prior to the assault.  The Soviets
formed special mobile formations to spearhead each direction of advance, made
up entirely of armor, self-propelled artillery, and motorized rifle divisions.
The Red Army and its sister services would demonstrate an impressive mastery of
the art of modern warfare in this campaign, which in addition to its rapid
breaching of strongly fortified defenses and utilization of very large
mechanized formations in mobile operations would feature at least a half-dozen
parachute drops and an even greater number of amphibious landings.  Some times
the conditions prepared for were extremely primitive.  The Trans-Baikal front
on the right wing would have to advance through hundreds of miles of waterless
desert-- for which neither the Chinese nor the Japanese maps available were
accurate-- and then force its way through the Great Khingan mountain range.
        Despite all the elaborate preparations the initial Soviet attack did
not go off as planned.  The first assaults were to be accompanied by massive
artillery preparations against the fortified areas.  Then, as in the Oder
offensive against Berlin, the Soviets were to use searchlights to blind the
defenders as their leading waves attacked by night.  But a driving rain led the
commencement of the barrage to be delayed.  At 1 am on the morning of August
9th the Soviet commanders decided to go ahead despite the rain.  An immediate
advance was ordered, without the artillery preparation, but this turned out
fortuitously as the advantage of surprise allowed the Soviets to quickly
overrun the initial defenses.  The attack, carried out with such overwhelming
forces of men and material, succeeded on virtually every sector.  Soon deep
penetrations of mechanized forces were carving the Kwantung Army into several
isolated pockets.  In the air there was hardly any resistance, and Soviet
planes ranging freely over the battlefield added to the complete mastery the
Russians had in any mobile operations (one can easily imagine how the
occasional confrontations between Russian and Japanese armor turned out).  Many
of the fortified areas nonetheless held out desperately.  The Japanese will to
fight was not necessarily lessened.  The Russians frequently encountered
suicide squads of men with explosives tied to their bodies who threw themselves
under the Soviet tanks and then set off the charges.  In the Dunnin fortified
area the officers agreed to surrender, but were then shot by their own men, who
continued the fight.  Mutankiang, a major road, rail, and administrative
center, was also heavily fortified, and resisted fiercely.  The Japanese
launched several spirited counterattacks in this area before the city fell on
August 16th (Soviet estimates put the Japanese casualties in this fight alone
at 40,000 men).  Note that even the announcement of the Japanese surrender by
the Emporer himself on August 15th did not put an end to the fighting.  General
Yamada issued orders to cease hostilities on the 17th, but even this did not
end the fighting until Lt-Gen Hata met with the Soviets on the 19th.
Hostilities in general ceased on August 20th, but small-scale actions against
surrounded Japanese who wouldn't surrender continued for several days
thereafter.
        I have a few more lines to add but am out of time.  Will finish in a
moment.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:13:51 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seattle Area Sites

Lou Coatney writes:

>Mike, the owner, flew a MiG-15 out of Hungary in the 50s.
>  He and his family were personal friends of Adolph Galland.
>  We were having a nice conversation, one day, and he mentioned
>  how his family had lost all their vast landholdings to the
>  Communists, upon the postwar takeover.  I wondered aloud
>  why his people hadn't been exterminated as "class enemies."
>  The atmosphere chilled a bit, after that, unfortunately.

Jeez Lou, Nothing like good old tact and diplomacy, eh? :-)

I wonder if he stands to regain what was taken from his family
now that things have changed over there...

                                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:30:57 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Soviets in Manchuria (conclusion)

        I was saying (before work interrupted) that neither the official
Japanese surrender on August 15th nor the orders issued by General Yamada on
the 17th and 18th ended the fighting in Manchuria.  The Soviets consider the
campaign to have lasted 24 days (i.e., till Sept 2nd, the same day the official
surrender was signed aboard the MISSOURI in Tokyo bay).  Some Japanese
continued to hold out even after Buddhist monks were sent to try to convince
them to lay down their arms.  The majority, however, began to accept the
inevitable on the 18th or 19th, particularly after Hata's negotiations with the
Soviet command.  These negotiations offer an interesting insight into the
states of mind of both sides.  Hata tried to get the Soviets to allow Japanese
troops to keep their weapons temporarily because the local population was
"unreliable" (a nice indication of how the locals truly felt about being
blessed with membership in the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere").  The
Russians, for their part, demanded that the Japanese coming in to surrender
bring their field kitchens and foodstuffs with them, an admission that their
prodigious logistics preparations were still far from completely adequate, in
that the Japanese prisoners would at least initially have to feed themselves
(the 6th Guards Tank Army experienced more difficulty due to bad roads and
supply problems than to enemy resistance).  The Soviets also considered the
downcast demeanor of Hata, a small man with a monk-like shaved head, to be an
indication of the thoroughness of the Japanese defeat, contrasting this with
the arrogance they had come to expect in previous dealings with the Japanese.
        Eventually some 594,000 Japanese and puppet troops surrendered to the
Russian forces (including 148 Japanese generals).  Tens of thousands (inluding
a number of Japanese civilian settlers and administrators) vanished into Soviet
prison camps, where over 50,000 remained well into the 1950's (some, of course,
never returned).  The most significant catch was the capture of the Manchurian
puppet emporer, Henry Pu Yi, along with his Japanese advisor General Yoshioka,
by Soviet paratroopers who landed on the airfield at Mukden just as the
would-be ruler's plane was about to take off (this was portrayed exactly as it
happened in the movie "The Last Emporer").
        Just a word, since I've often spoken of Japanese armor, regarding
Japanese self-propelled guns.  These types of vehicles were employed widely by
the Soviets in Manchuria.  The Japanese had also built a few similar vehicles,
but only a few.  Most common were the mounting of either the 75-mm antiaircraft
gun or the 150-mm howitzer behind a large armored shield on a turretless Chi-Ha
or Chi-He chassis, but very few actually saw service.  The Japanese also built
a tiny number of the Type 2 "gun tank," essentially a Chi-He mounting a
short-barrelled 75-mm gun in its turret (designed along the same conception as
the original German Panzer IV).  These began production in 1942, but very few
were made.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich
into Soviet prison

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:03:15 -0500
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: HIST: Strange American desertion ... conclusion

In reading William L. Combs, THE VOICE OF THE SS: A HISTORY OF THE SS JOURNAL
"DAS SCHWARZE KORPS" [Peter Lang, 1986], I came across the bizarre story of
Martin James Monti, native of Florrisant MO, who left post in Karachi in
October 1944 and hitched plane rides to Italy where he stole a P-38
photo-recon plane. He flew to German-occupied territory and gave himself
up. He allegedly then cooperated with the Germans and under the alias of
"Cpt. Martin Wiethaupt" prepared some radio commentaries later broadcast to
American troops. "Supposedly, Monti had acquired SS credentials by the end of
the war when he surrendered at US Fifth Army headquarters in Milan" [p.414].

There's a bit more to this weird tale. Will post if anyone is interested.

-- Warren Thompson


         He was tried by courtmartial and sentenced to fifteen years
         imprisonment for theft of a plane and desertion.  Yet, in January,
         1946, when he was returned to the USA, his sentence was remitted
         and he was allowed to re-enlist in the US Army as a private in
         February, 1946.  When Monti was arrested for treason, he admitted
         making fifteen to twenty broadcasts for the Germans but claimes he
         was under duress of what he termed "subtle threats."
                In July, 1948, Judge Harold M. Kennedy, Brooklyn Federal
         Court, denied a motion to dismiss the charges against Monti and
         refused to set bail for him.  Monti's attorney, Lloyd Paul
         Stryker, again requested bail in October, 1948, but the plea was
         denied by Judge Matthew T. Abruzzo.  At that time Special
         Assistant Attorney General Victor C. Woerheide argued against
         setting bail on the grounds that Monti would be likely to flee the
         country.  Styker did persuade Federal Judge Leo F. Rayfiel to send
         Monti to Kings County Hospital "for observation" in December,
         1948.  After three weeks of "mental observation" Monti was
         returned to teh Federal House of Detention and his trial was
         scheduled for January 17 at the Federal Court in Brooklyn.
                Monti's trial was to take place about the same time as
         those of Mildred Gillars ("Axis Sally") and Herbert John Burgman,
         both of whom were accused of broadcasting propaganda for the
         Germans, but the Justice Department indicated that Monti's trial
         might be delayed until witnesses from Germany arrived.  A treason
         conviction required two witnesses of each overt act.  The three
         witnesses being brought to the USA were Hans van Richter, Herman
         Rockmann and "Gunther d'Alquen".  The newspaper report mentioned
         that Rockmann and d'Alquen had appeared before the grand jury that
         indicted Monti.  They were expected to testify that Monti had
         sought membership in the SS and had been given an SS officer's
         uniform.
                Monti's trial was not delayed, so the witnesses apparently
         had arrived by January 17.  The trial, presided over by Judge
         Robert A. Inch, was something of a surprise.  Monti confessed to
         twenty-one overt acts of treason in open court and was sentenced
         to twenty-five years in prison and a fine of $10,000.  Among other
         things he admitted to holding the rank of lieutenant in the SS
         Kurt Eggers Standarte, the SS propaganda unit of which d'Alquen
         was the commander.
                In January, 1949, Lloyd Paul Stryker filed an appeal to the
         Circuit Court to have Monti's sentence set aside.  He argued that
         Monti's constitutional protection against double jeopardy had been
         violated.  The motion was rejected.  Two years later Monti
         attempted to have his guilty plea nullified.  Judge Inch ordered
         him returned to Brooklyn from Leavenworth for the hearing.  Monti
         testified that he had no treasonable intent when he had made his
         wartime broadcasts.  Moreover, he charged that his former lawyer,
         Stryker, had coerced him to plead guilty.  He also denied having
         sought entry into the SS.  Judy Inch refused to permit Monti to
         change his plea nad stand trial.  Monti appealed Inch's ruling,
         but apparently failed in his efforts.
                The evidence shows that Gunter d'Alquen was indeed in the
         USA in 1948 for Monti's trial.  He may also have come to the USA
         for the grand Jury investigation that led to Monti's indictment.
         It does not appear that d'Alquen was giving the State Department
         propaganda advice as was being charged in Europe.  Why the FBI was
         so reluctant to release this information without an appeal under
         the Freedom of Information Act is hard to surmise.  What is,
         perhaps, most surprising of all, is that the FBI did not place
         d'Alquen under surveillance when he traveled to the USA in the
         1930's.


thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:45:48 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: HIST: A strange American desertion

> In reading William L. Combs, THE VOICE OF THE SS: A HISTORY OF THE SS JOURNAL
> "DAS SCHWARZE KORPS" [Peter Lang, 1986], I came across the bizarre story of
> Martin James Monti.....

> There's a bit more to this weird tale. Will post if anyone is interested.
>
> -- Warren Thompson

I am!  Where did you come across that book too?  I gotta find that
one.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:25:36 -0400
From:    John Baxter Jones <JONESJB@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

** Regretfully, we need only to look at the tone set in Washington by the
current residents of the White House regarding their attitudes toward the
military and/or any military achievements of the past.  I felt sick in
the pit of my stomach when Clinton went to Europe to commemorate the
brave endeavors of the allied military units on D-Day, June 6, 1944.
When he laid a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, I wanted to
throw up knowing that this man had not the faintest idea of the
sacrifices made by the truly brave men and women who fought in both
theaters of the war.  If the U.S. government under this kind of
leadership(?) had made *any other* decision other than to mollify the
Japanese as opposed to standing firm for our veterans' achievements, I
would have been even more surprised.
     In a world that is even more dangerous now than prior to the demise
of the former U.S.S.R. (very real threat of civil war<s> on east
European/west Asian continental area), the administration has seen fit to
reduce our military to a status that is so weak and unweildly as to be
almost laughable.  The hearts of the military personnel in today's
service is as strong as ever, but their (gag) "commander in chief" has
seen fit to starve their abilities due to a misguided, head-in-the-sand,
"feel-good" attitude regarding the realities of the very real postential
for armed conflict in foreign lands.  Nuff said!

John Jones
dau tieng '67--'68


On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Ben!
>
> I wholeheartedly agree with your comment below!
>
> What agenda does the government have to try and "play down" what the
> vets tried so hard to accomplish? To me this is back-stabbing of the
> worst sort.
>
> Thanks for the post and allowing my two cents' worth on this.
>
> All the best.
>
> Terry
>
> > "...Washington has assured Tokyo that U.S. government representatives at
> > commemorative events will avoid using the traditional term "V-J Day," short for
> > "Victory-over-Japan Day, to describe the end of the Pacific War. Instead, all
> > American material will simply refer to the "end of the war." I am absolutely
> > appalled and totally pissed off at this pusillanimous action on the part of the
> > government. It is an insult to all veterans of the Pacific War, living and
> > dead, and I call upon the members of this list to take whatever action is
> > within their limits to sound off on the matter. When I cool down sufficiently,
> > I intend writing a letter to the Post. Whether it is published, is another
> > story. An accompany article is headed: "V-J Day Passe in P.C. Era." What a
> > crock! Ben Frank, spring loaded in a pissed off position.
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:31:27 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Intro and questions

Hello all,

My name is Doug Bohannon.

My primary interests are WWII military history but I do read about other
eras.

I am especially interested in PT Boat history in WWII.

I collect WWII edged weapons as well as other military items and I am looking
for PT Boat items.

I have also been involved with historical war gaming in miniatures for over
16 years.

Is acceptable to advertise to sell or purchase military collectables,
including vehicles, on this list?

Is there a Militaria collectors List?

Is there a Military Vehicles Collectors list?

If any one has any quesitons or comments, please email me at

DSB77@AOL.COM

Thanks.

Doug Bohannon

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:46:44 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Soviets/Manchuria

        Gee, if I wasn't holding down two jobs AND playing drums in a working
band I'd have a lot more time for this.  Anyway, the unconscionable nerve of
these people here at the library-- who actually expect me to work on THEIR
stuff while I'm on the clock instead of playing with the free e-mail they
provide me-- forced me to break off again just short of tidy conclusions.  So a
few final points.
        I wanted to mention that the Soviet offensive actions also included the
overruning of Korea down to the 38th parallel (the previously-agreed
demarcation line) and also the capture of southern Sakhalin island and the
Kuriles.  It was primarily the operations in Korea which prolonged the fighting
into September.  I also wanted to clarify, in my reference to the handfull of
self-propelled gun mounts produced by the Japanese, that these vehicles (except
for the tiny quantity of the Type 2 tank) differed from most of the far more
numerous Soviet SU series self-propelled guns.  The latter were (except for the
early SU-76) true "assault guns," completely enclosed and protected by thick
armor-- i.e., tanks without turrets.  The Japanese vehicles, with the exception
noted above, were more geared to providing mobility to the gun in question than
with producing a true armored fighting vehicle.  At any rate, there were so few
of them made that the point is virtually moot.
        Finally, I wanted to note that my sources, primarily due to ease of
acquisition and lack of time, are almost exclusively from the Soviet side.
Mostly I used the accounts by Vasilevsky in "Main Front: Soviet Leaders Look
Back On World War 2" and Kyril Meretskov in "Soviet Generals Recall World War
II." (Meretskov commanded the Soviet 1st Far Eastern Front which drove into the
heart of Manchuria)  I also referred to Hayashi, "Kogun" for Japanese
dispositions and Stephen Boyd, "The Soviet Air Force" for details of the air
preparations.
        Finally, I wanted to note that several of the top Japanese officials
did state after the war (as the Soviets triumphantly proclaimed) that the
Soviet operations in Manchuria, not the dropping of the atomic bombs, were the
decisive actions that led to the final decision to surrender.  In large part
this was because until the Russians commenced active hostilities many Japanese
still nursed the ill-placed hope that they could still negotiate acceptable
peace terms (short of unconditional surrender) through the offices of the
"neutral" USSR.  When these hopes were dashed, simultaneously with another
catastrophic military defeat, and the long-feared Russian threat in addition
became a terrible reality, the inevitability of Japan's defeat was brought home
to many (but still not all) in the upper echelons of government.  (see Toland,
"Rising Sun," among others)

        Regards (and hope this answers some of the recent questions)

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:26:31 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Return to Iwo Jima

>From the DoD Newswire 14 March 1995

:VETERANS DESCEND ON IWO JIMA

   IWO JIMA, Japan -- American soldiers and sailors who 50 years
ago fought one of the most ferocious battles of World War II returned
Tuesday to this island whose name has become synonymous with war.
   This time, they were here to remember, not to fight.
   "I feel a lot different coming here now than when we came ashore
in an assault landing 50 years ago," said Chester Foulke, 71, of Las
Vegas, soon after stepping off a chartered Boeing 727, which arrived
from Saipan.
   Foulke fought on Iwo Jima as a demolitions expert in the 5th
Marine Division.
   "But I have no qualms about coming here again," he said. "You have
good memories and bad memories. You have to deal with them both."
   The U.S. military has spent the past month prettying up the tiny
Pacific island. Some 880 U.S. veterans of the battle and their
families were to meet 110 Japanese survivors and their families later
in the day.
   "I still feel a little funny," said Charles Lindberg, 71, also a
veteran of the 5th Marine Division, of the planned get-together
between former foes. "But those things, well, you have to let go of
them. Maybe meeting them will help."
   Most of the veterans were dressed in street clothes and white
commemorative baseball caps. A few had medals pinned to their chests.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:30:49 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Wreath Laying Ceremony

>From the DoD Newswire 14 March 1995

:PRINCE CHARLES LAYS WORLD WAR TWO WREATH IN EGYPT

    CAIRO, March 13 - Britain's Prince Charles laid a wreath
on Monday at a war cemetery in northern Cairo, burial place of
hundreds of Allied soldiers killed in World War Two.
     The prince, in full military uniform, observed a minute's silence
and then walked among the graves of some 1,800 soldiers from British
and Commonwealth forces at the cemetery in the Cairo suburb of
Heliopolis.
     Charles, on a five-day trip to Egypt, then inspected a drill
display given by cadets at the nearby Egyptian Military Academy.
     He was due to fly later to Sinai to visit Saint Catherine's, a
Greek Orthodox monastery founded in the sixth century AD. The
monastery is at the foot of Mount Sinai, where the prophet Moses
received the Ten Commandments.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:12:49 -0400
From:    Sam Lashlee <salashlee@VAXSAR.VASSAR.EDU>
Subject: HOME:FRANCE - "une victoire intellectualle"

My name is Sam Lashlee.  I am a 21 year old student (part-time) and
employee (full-time) at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, NY.  My father is
Malcolm Lashlee.  He was a member of the 44th Tank Battallion C division
during WWII.  During the War, he was hit by a grenade in the leg, and the
shrapnel from the grenade remains there today.  His battallion has reunions
yearly.  I believe this year's will be in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina in
October.  When I have more information about that, I will post it.

Enough about me...The reason I am writing is that I am a history buff.  I
have done extensive research on my family tree, and am considering changing
my major from computer science to History (if there were more jobs in that
field, it would be easier to change).

Anyway, I am currently taking a history class -
History of France and Southern Europe since 1918

We are currently learning about "The Strange Defeat" of France (or "une
victoire intellectuelle...") as Bloch describes it.  I am interested in
writing a paper on this subject, and hope that someone out there has some
first-hand (or second-hand , or even third-hand) information that could help
me.  The Strange Defeat is the way Bloch describes the German victory over
France in May-June 1940.  I would appreciate any and all help.

My email address is
SaLashlee@vassar.edu


I will probably be posting more often over the next few weeks.  I hope that
I can find a lot of help on this board.

Thanks

Sam

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 19:03:30 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: POLITICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

        Discussion of the current administration's attitude and budget
decisions toward the military are not within the charter of this mailing
list.  Discussing one's involuntary body functions as a result of watching
President Clinton at various commemoration ceremonies is also discouraged.
Please keep messages sent to this mailing list relevant to WWII.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:32:23 +1100
From:    Brent McCunn <bmccunn@WERPLE.MIRA.NET.AU>
Subject: Soviet invasion of Sth Sakhalin

Does anyone know of any sources that mention the operation of moving the
invasion troops for South Sakhalin Island from Komsomolsk to Vanino on
the 1945 complted single track railway. I am nearly finished a guidebook
to this area and would like to include any stories about this in the
history of this line.
Athol Yates, Canberra, Australia

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:26:09 +0000
From:    George Bowman <gbowman@CSCRISC1.SCT.BOCES.K12.NY.US>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

I agree with te opinion that V-J should be used.  I was a Viet Nam era
vet.  Never got near the place but I was a real live air force vol. and
proud of it.  The fact that we one WWII and the fact that we were right
gives us the right to use V-E or V-J any time or place that we see fit.

George Bowman
Transportation Supervisor
Elmira City School Dist.
FAX: 607-735-3959

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:42:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 15 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 15 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 1 B-24 flies air coverage for a naval task
force; 7 others weather-abort.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-24s claim 1 vessel sunk in the S
China Sea. In China, 4 B-25s hit the area E of Pingsiang; 4 P-51s hit
locomotives between Sinsiang and Shihkiachwang and 4 attack motor transport
in the Paotou area.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30 P-47s support elements
of the Chinese 50th Division in the Namhsan area; 32 P-38s sweep roads S of
the bomb line. Transports fly 625 sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 889: 1,353 bombers and 833 fighters are dispatched to hit German
Army HQ and a marshalling yard at Oranienburg; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 9 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 308 of 372 B-24s and 276 of 300 B-17s hit the Germany Army HQ at Zossen,
near Berlin visually; targets of opportunity for the B-24s are the Gardlingen
rail center (31), the rail bridge at Parey (11) and other (3) and for B-17s,
the marshalling yard at Stendal (13) and other (3); 1 B-24 is lost, 1 B-24 is
damaged beyond repair and 32 B-24s and 20 B-17s are damaged; 4 airmen are
KIA, 8 WIA and 21 MIA. Escorting are 397 P-51s and P-47s; they claim 1-0-0
aircraft in the air; 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  2. 612 of 675 B-17s attack the marshalling yard at Oranienburg visually;
targets of opportunity are Wittenberg (31), Havelberg (12), the marshalling
yards at Durstadt (1) and Mellendorf (1), Schmarsau (1) and Dedelstorf
Airfield (1) some of which are hit with H2X radar; 8 B-17s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 288 damaged; 8 airmen are WIA and 66 MIA. 320 of
352 P-51s escort; 1 is lost.
  3. 6 B-17s fly a screening mission without loss.
  4. 29 of 30 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  5. 9 P-51s fly a sweep of the Bonn-Koblenz area.
  6. 9 of 12 P-51s escort 24 F-5s and 4 Spitfires on photo reconnaissance
missions over Germany.
  Mission 890: 14 of 16 B-24s bomb the rail station at Munster during the
night using PFF methods.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 9th Bombardment Division
A-20s, A-26s, and B-26s attack communications centers at Neunkirchen and
Pirmasens, marshalling yards at Turkismuhle and Erbach, 3 flak positions, and
several other targets, as well as dropping leaflets on Koblenz; fighters hit
the Overberge marshalling yard and other targets, escort the bombers, fly
sweeps and armed reconnaissance, and support the US XII Corps crossing the
Mosel River in an offensive toward the Rhine River, and the XX Corps E of
Trier and Saarbrucken. HQ 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and the
15th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron move from Doncourt Airfield, Conflans
and Giraumont, France respectively to Evren Airfield, Trier, Germany with
F-6s; the 393d and 394th Fighter Squadrons, 367th Fighter Group, move from St
Dizier to Conflans, France with P-47s; and the 411th Fighter Squadron, 373d
Fighter Group, moves from Le Culot, Belgium to Venlo, the Netherlands with
P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Germany, 109 B-17s bomb the
oil refinery at Ruhland (marking the Fifteenth's deepest penetration into
Germany). 103 others bomb the alternate target, the refinery at Kolin,
Czechoslovakia. 470+ other bombers attack targets in Austria, including
Moosbierbaum, Schwechat, and Vienna/Floridsdorf oil refineries, marshalling
yards at Wiener-Neustadt, Sankt Polten, Graz, Bruck an der Mur, Klagenfurt,
and Murzzuschlag, and a bridge at Klagenfurt. Supply missions to N Italy and
Yugoslavia continue, along with extensive photo and weather reconnaissance.
Fighters fly 300+ sorties in escort of the bombers and supply and
reconnaissance flights.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack railroad
bridges and fills at Salzano, Canale d'Isonzo, Rovereto, Palazzolo
sull'Oglio, Romano di Lombardia, and Mori; fighters and fighter-bombers of
the XXII Tactical Air Command concentrate on communications lines in NE
Italy, particularly the Brenner rail line, and also blast several supply and
ammunition dumps; A-20s continue intruder missions during the night of 14/15
Mar, hitting Po River crossings and fills in the San Ambrogio di Valpolicella
area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 8 Guam Island-based B-24s bomb Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima Island; 3 more, on snooper strikes, hit the airfield during
the night of 15/16 Mar.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In support of US
ground forces on Luzon Island, B-24s, A-20s, and P-38s hit a HQ area at
Baguio; P-47s hit Minuli bridge and enemy concentrations in the Balete Pass
and W of Ft Stotsenburg; and A-20s and P-47s hit gun positions and occupied
areas around Batangas. On Mindanao Island, B-24s and B-25s hit personnel N of
Saragani Bay and troops and gun positions in the Zamboanga area. B-24s bomb
Lahug on Cebu Island. P-47s dive-bomb Takao power installations on Formosa.
HQ 22d Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the 19th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy)
move from Samar Island to Clark Field, Luzon with B-24s; the 100th
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from
Sansapor, New Guinea to Palawan Island with B-25s; the 403d Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Tacloban, Leyte
Island to Clark Field, Luzon with B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

15/0140Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:57:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: Enterprise Green

Yesterday, Joe Barone sent this very interesting article:

 >        In August and September 1940, while a large German force was being
 >assembled in the Channel ports to invade England, a smaller force was also
 >being assembled for a similar operation.  The target of this force was
 >Ireland and the Germans showed uncharacteristic irony when they named the
 >operation Enterprise Green.
 >
 >        German interests in Ireland lay in several considerations.  First,
 >the Luftwaffe could operate over every square mile of England, Wales, and
 >Scotland (as well as Northern Ireland) from airfields in Ireland.  This
 >would have had a significant impact on the Battle of Britain since the
 >western sanctuaries used by the RAF would now have been targets.  E-boats
 >and U-boats would have had easier access to the Irish Sea, increasing the
 >interdiction of British supplies and placing a further strain on the Royal
 >Navy.  Further, Great Britain would have had a more difficult time
 >anticipating an invasion since it could have come from the west as well
 >as the south.
 >
 >        The Germans also hoped to use the Irish government's foreign
 >policy to expedite the invasion.  The Irish armed forces numbered less
 >than 8,000 regulars with another 4,300 poorly equipped reservists with
 >no tanks and 16 obsolete aircraft.

Well, if truth be known, on 1 Sep 40, the Irish Army Air Corps had 47
aircraft as follows (the month and year of delivery is shown in
parenthesis):

COMBAT EFFECTIVE (????)
-----------------------
7 Avro 652A Anson Mk I's (Mar 37, Jan 38, Feb 39)
6 Westland Lysander Mk I's (Jul 39)
3 Gloster Gladiator Mk I's (Mar 38)
3 Supermarine VS236 Walrus Mk I's (Mar 39)

TRANSPORT
---------
1 deHavilland DH 84 Dragon 2 (Mar 37)

TRAINERS
--------
15 Miles M14A Magister's (Feb and Mar 39 and Jun 40)
 5 Avro 631 Cadets (Mar 32 and Sep 34)
 4 Hawker Hinds (Jun 40)
 2 Avro 636's (Oct 35)
 1 Avro 626 (Apr 34)

Serial numbers of these aircraf and their fate are available on request.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 21:15:30 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 15-MAR-1945

On 15-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 9th Division takes
Lorscheid and Notscheid. The 99th Division expands its bridgehead over the
Rhine to the east and southeast. In the 3rd Army sector, the 87th Division
is preparing to cross the Moselle in the Koblenz sector. The XII and XX
Corps continue to advance. Operation Undertone is launched by the 7th Army.
The goal of this offensive is to make a clear breach in the Siegfried Line
and working with the 3rd Army to liberate the Saar-Palatinate triangle
between the rivers Rhine, Moselle and Lauter-Saar.

Eastern Front - The German pocket in East Prussia is split as troops of the
3rd White Russian Front break through to the coast southwest of
Koenigsberg.

Philippines - The 32nd Division continues hard fighting on the Villa Verde
Trail. The XI Corps, with the new mission of attacking the center of the
Shimbu line, takes over the XIV Corps zone east and northeast of Manila.
XIV Corps has penetrated the outer positions of the Japanese in the
Montalban-Antipolo area. In the 8th Army sector, the Panay invasion force
sails from Luzon.

Iwo Jima - The 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions further reduce pockets of
resistance within their sectors. The 5th Marine Division gains 400 yards on
the right and 200 in the center. Naval support ceases.

Burma - The Indian 17th Division continues to hold out in Meiktila although
still isolated and dependent upon air supply.

The Homefront
-------------
Academy Awards - The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has
announced the following awards: best film - "Going My Way", best actor -
Bing Crosby in "Going My Way", best actress - Ingred Bergman in "Gaslight".

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:07:44 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WW II List subscription info

Joe,

Thanks for the info on armored vehicles.

One other question.

What is this lists policy on advertising?

Thanks again,

Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:20:54 -0500
From:    Scott C Stathis <stathis@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW II List subscription info

>
> Joe,
>
> Thanks for the info on armored vehicles.
>
> One other question.
>
> What is this lists policy on advertising?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Doug
>


       Speaking for myself Doug I don't mind it as long as its WWII related.
However I'm sure that Joe has the final word. You out there Joe?

Scott Stathis
stathis@student.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:51:35 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

John Riegsecker wrote:

> Nimitz provided an affidavit stating that, on orders from
Washington, submarines under his command had conducteed the same sort of
warfare

     Gee, a few more actions like that one, and we wouldn't have been having
this discussion! :-)
     Maybe I'm slightly prejudiced, being a (transplanted) Texan myself, but
I've always thought there was much about Nimitz to respect. I seem to recall
having read somewhere that Nimitz was one of the few commanders who privately
expressed some displeasure to Mush Morton, though like the others he made no
public statement. I can't locate an authenticating source for that one,
however, and it may be a case of Swiss-cheese memory or some movie scene
floating around in the back of my mind. I suppose a private reprimand is
better than nothing, and it would explain why Morton didn't make any effort
to repeat his attacks on survivors in subsequent patrols.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:51:38 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Doenitz

While we're still on the subject of Karl Doenitz (or before we get too far
off it), can someone please recommend a good biography of him? I also would
be interested in a similar work about Otto "the tonnage king" Kretschmer, if
there is one.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:55:45 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: QUES: Mountbatten pink

A modeler friend of mine recently asked me about a color scheme involving
"Mountbatten pink." I couldn't find anything in my stuff, but my guess was
that it might have been a color used in so-called dazzle camouflage paint
applied to warships. Beats me whether that's actually true or not -- I based
it on a) Mountbatten having been a destroyer officer for at least part of the
war and b) the painting on the back of my copy of *Jane's Fighting Ships of
World War II* shows a vessel painted in dazzle with patches on it that appear
to be -- believe it or not -- pink.

Does anybody know what "Mountbatten pink" would have been used for? What kind
of pink was it -- salmon? Light pink? More like fuschia?

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Mar 1995 to 14 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 14 Mar 1995 to 15 Mar 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 46 messages totalling 1547 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Mush Morton (2)
  2. USSR in the Pacific Theater
  3. QUES: Mountbatten pink
  4. Nimitz vs.(?) the Axis
  5. INF: USN Chronology 03-15-95
  6. HIST: A strange American desertion
  7. IJN armored cruiser (2)
  8. REF: Looking for Soviet tactical practices (2)
  9. More on Manchuria
 10. WWII German, US & Soviet Veterans
 11. Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the
 12. endlossung/Germans or Nazis? (2)
 13. Eastern Front
 14. KAMIKAZES AIRCRAFTS (2)
 15. INFO. German Professor Abbreviations
 16. Martin James Monti (2)
 17. More on Bong
 18. help
 19. South Pacific Theatre
 20. Intro and questions
 21. ADMIN: Commercialism
 22. TAC- Enterprise Green
 23. TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS
 24. VJ vs. VE (2)
 25. Obersalzberg con't
 26. WEAP: Glacier Girl Pictures
 27. WEAP Re: IJN armored cruiser
 28. Doenitz
 29. Dudley Morton
 30. WW II List subscription info
 31. The Ahnenerbe
 32. Last words on Manchuria
 33. Nimitz and ... MIKASA?
 34. CONVENTION UPDATE:  "Little Wars," 18-19Mar95, Chicago/O'Hare/Ramada Inn
 35. Victory at Sea series
 36. POL: Italian Surrender (2)
 37. DOC: U.S. Army Pearl Harbor Board.
 38. INF: 50 Years Ago - 16-MAR-1945

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:09:54 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

On 3/12/95 John Riegsdecker wrote the following:
>No matter how you rationalize it, I'm certain we would have tried as a
>war criminal any German or Japanese submariner who had done the same
>thing.

Just as I'm certain, had the fortunes of war been reversed, that the
commanders who ordered the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo would have been
tried for war crimes.  I'm not trying to moralize these actions, or condemn
them.  I'm just trying to say (following the orginal thread of this
discussion, Admiral Doenitz) that convicting a man for "aggresive warfare"
in WWII is like (to paraphrase Francis Ford Coppala) handing out speeding
tickets at the Indy 500.

I think W. T. Sherman had it right: "War is a bloody, evil, thing that I
wish I would never have seen.  But, now that I am here I will do all that I
can with the forces I have been granted to ensure its swiftest resolution."

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:10:01 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: USSR in the Pacific Theater

On 3/12/95 Lou Coatney writes:
>     One question about this, though:  If Stalin was getting full
>intelligence about our program, he would have known that we had only
>a few warheads constructed and available.  If he really wanted to
>prolong the war, to expand and consolidate his gains in Asia,
>wouldn't he have forewarned the Japanese, so that they could better
>prepare themselves to endure the blasts and fight on?  (Or would he
>have considered the risk of forewarning them too great:  that they
>might have instead sued for peace -- unconditional surrender, even
>-- sooner?)  Anyway, ...

A thought that I had, if I may.  I think there may be either a shortsighted
or a foresighted explanation to Stalin's behavior, again assuming he had
full knowledge of the Manhattan Project.  Either explanation would fit in
with all I have ever read about Stalin's volatile personality.  On the side
of shortsightedness, Stalin might have considered that allowing the
Americans to remove the Japanese as a threat was worth all considerations.
The foresighted argument might say that Stalin realized that with the
Soviet Union's depleted resources, both intellectual as well as material,
it would take several years to match even the United States' meager atomic
resources, and that only a quick peace would allow him the time he needed
to utilize the information he possessed.  These were just snap impressions,
so I would appreciate any feedback.

>     I'll post the bibliographic entry for S.'s book to you, if you
>give me your e-mail address.

Lou,
My e-mail address *should* be showing up below, provided I've finnaly got
this @$#*&^ mail program (and, boy don't you just *love* computers
sometimes) configured properly.  But, just in case, its:
joefeld@mail.ic.net.  Thanks in advance!

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 01:15:28 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUES: Mountbatten pink

ROYAL NAVY WARSHIP CAMOUFLAGE, 1939-1945, by Peter Hodges --
  one of the excellent Almark books -- has the explanation.

"Dickie" Mountbatten came up with this nifty new color:  a
  kind of greyish pink!  (Is that what fuschia is?)

Dickie was a trendsetter, of course, so a number of ships
  bathed themselves in this, before the Admiralty really
  started dictating camouflage schemes.

The problem with MP was that it contrasted to almost any
  atmospheric or sea condition in any lighting.  HMS
  MANCHESTER sported MP in the Med and was sunk by Italian
  motor torpedo boats in a heavy daylight haze which concealed
  most of the other ships in that particular Malta convoy.

Another inspiration Lord Mountbatten got credit for was
  Dieppe, of course.  Although some of his schemes were
  disastrous, the man was INDEFATIGABLE -- the very
  *definition* of the word -- and exuded an upbeat charisma
  that convinced his forces they were *winning*, regardless
  of the reality.  His own personal courage cannot be
  disputed, either.

It was ironic that his death would be by IRA bombing.  Noone
  dared *face* that courage and aplomb.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 01:18:23 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Nimitz vs.(?) the Axis

After the war, we were about to scrap an old Japanese
  armored cruiser which had been preserved after the Russo-
  Japanese War.  Nimitz interceded and saved the ship, to
  the (everlasting?) gratitude of the Japanese people and
  their Navy.

Pity he didn't stand up for Joe Rochefort like that.  (Maybe
  R. had offended/embarrassed even Nimitz?)

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-15-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/15 Thu. Cruiser and destroyer task force (Rear Adm. J. L.
           McCrea) bombards enemy shore installations on
           Matsuwa, Kurile Islands.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Mar 1995 19:25:25 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: HIST: A strange American desertion

Monti....
        The distinct odor of bull manure.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:09:35 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <crivera@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: IJN armored cruiser

It the vessel mentioned below the "Mikasa," and if not, what was the name of
the rescued warship?
Many thanks,
Carlos R. Rivera
Ohio State University

-ps-If it was the Mikasa, it was a battleship not an armored cruiser

> After the war, we were about to scrap an old Japanese
>   armored cruiser which had been preserved after the Russo-
>   Japanese War.  Nimitz interceded and saved the ship, to
>   the (everlasting?) gratitude of the Japanese people and
>   their Navy.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 05:13:59 -0800
From:    James Sulzen <sulzen@HOOKED.NET>
Subject: REF: Looking for Soviet tactical practices

I am looking for insightful references to the Eastern front conflict
describing Soviet tactical practices and performances.  Given the opening
of access to Soviet sources in recent years, I had hoped by now to see some
good preliminary studies covering the tactical level
(company/battalion/brigade) using Soviet sources.  I assume there must be
researchers digging through what must be an untold wealth of primary and
secondary material.  However, I haven't seen anything along the lines of
what I'm looking for.

There of course are a plethora of high-level histories covering the gross
movement of the front (corps/army/army group), but I personally have never
encountered anything that provides the slightest insight into Soviet
tactical success/failure.  I have seen a number of studies covering
tactical organization and performance of, for instance U.S. and German
ground forces (the most notable I have read being van Creveld's "Fighting
Power").   But even the German sources I've seen tend to dismiss Soviet
success as simply due to overwhelming mass.  Such explanations are neither
insightful nor complete (nor do I believe, particularly fair).

I have a slight interest in operational histories (which unit did what to
whom, where and when), but am mostly interested in studies of tactical and
operational practices and organization (company and battalion formations
used in defense/attack. how long for such formations to formulate and
launch an attack or put together a defense, etc.).

I'd prefer to own the sources, so books in print are the most valuable
references.  However, I do have access to the University of California
library system, so I can probably dig up any particular volume, no matter
how obscure.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:15:32 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: More on Manchuria

        I mentioned that the Japanese high command in Manchuria included many
experienced and capable generals.  Another one of those was Lt-Gen Shojiro
Iida, referred to formerly in these posts as commander of the 15th Army in
Burma until 1943.  Retired in 1944, Iida was recalled to active service in 1945
and put in charge of the 30th Army in Manchuria.  This army, composed of the
39th, 125th, 138th, and 148th Divisions, garrisoned one of the strongest
defense zones.
        Many of the Japanese units in Manchuria were up to strength (or close
to it) in manpower only.  The great drain of experienced formations had
primarily come in 1944, when most of the best units stationed there were pulled
out and sent to the south or to the home islands to form a cadre for defense.
The big call-up (and combing out of Japanese civilian settlers) I alluded to
last time replaced many of the men, but equipment and training remained
substandard.  Eight Japanese divisions in Manchuria, and several of the
brigades, had only been created barely a month before the Soviet attack.  Many
of these "divisions" had artillery support which amounted to a single four-gun
company (instead of a 36-gun regiment), and few of these artillery pieces were
larger than 75-mm calibre.  The units which garrisoned the heavily-fortified
city of Hailar, precariously located in an exposed position in the northwest
corner of the province, are instructive.  The 119th Division was considered one
of the best-prepared units in the Kwantung Army, but still only had 70% of the
men, weapons, and equipment called for in its table of organization.  The other
Japanese unit in Hailar, the 80th Brigade, represented the other extreme.  It
was so deficient in men and material that it was rated at only 15% of its
nominal combat efficiency.  Nonetheless these units fought well.  Hailar did
not fall until August 18th, and the understrength and supposedly subpar 80th
Brigade by itself held off three Russian divisions and a tank brigade for a
week (showing yet again what the Japanese could accomplish when attacked
head-on in carefully prepared defensive positions).
        The Soviet guesstimate of Japanese air strength, at 1,800 aircraft,
must have counted virtually every plane capable of flying in Manchuria and
Korea as a combat aircraft, and also including several hundred planes based in
the northern part of the home islands, within flying range of the theatre of
operations (these of course were reserved for home defense and took no actual
part in the fighting in Manchuria).  The main Japanese Army air force in
Manchuria proper actually numbered 225 fighters, 40 various bombers, 45
reconnaisance planes, and 600 assorted training aircraft.  The Soviet air
effort reflects the almost absolute lack of opposition.  The Russians flew
roughly 1,000 more reconnaisance than combat missions during the campaign, and
dropped a little over 700 tons of bombs.  The heaviest air attacks came in the
battles for Mutankiang, and even here they were hampered by several days of
rain and overcast.  Once the skies cleared the Soviet air presence was able to
make its presence felt, and materially aid the ground operations there.  The
Soviet air reconnaisance was particularly thorough, though, and resulted
(weather permitting) in an almost constant daylight surveillance of the areas
up to fifty miles in front of the advancing Russian columns.
        I should also say that, for those who have read too much testimony from
the Germans who fought on the eastern front, and consider the Soviet armed
forces to have been totally lacking in subtlety, ability to improvise, staff
preparation, and other demonstrable manifestations of the military art, this
campaign should be instructive (of course, the "Bagration" offensive of the
summer of 1944 in Belorussia/Poland should also have been instructive).
It wasn't the willingness of the average Russian soldier to die or the triumph
of pure mass in default of tactical acumen which won Manchuria.  The Soviet
staffs showed in this campaign a mastery of their profession which would be
admirable in any western army.  Just to have been able to concentrate such huge
forces over such incredible distances on such a tight schedule in itself
constitutes one of the most remarkable feats of logistical organization the war
produced.  But the Soviets also showed repeatedly the ability to improvise to
meet new contingencies.  During the campaign they hastily organized an
effective air resupply effort to bring fuel to the forward mechanized units.
By September some 2,400 tons of motor fuel had been delivered directly to the
forward units in this fashion, even though it was expensive in terms of
resources due to the limited carrying capacity of the Soviet transport planes--
it required over 1,750 transport sorties to carry this out.  The first fuel
resupply flight was mounted on the second day of the campaign.  Vasilevsky's
staff also organized on very short notice the series of parachute drops and air
landings which secured the major cities after the Japanese resistance
collapsed.  These were small-scale operations, usually not more than a little
over 200 paratroopers in each action, but they went off like clockwork.  First
the parachute troops would land and secure the airfield.  Then the transports
would start flying in reinforcements and engineer detachments to defuse bombs
and prevent demolitions.  Further reinforcements were hastily dispatched by sea
(or in some cases amphibious operations mounted in lieu of airdrops), and these
landings included putting ashore 31-ton T-34 tanks.  The Soviet staff showed a
commendable flexibility and high degree of competence which they are not often
given credit for in the west.  Indeed, logistics is generally considered a weak
point of the Soviet war effort, and often their arrangements are described as
primitive.  The Manchurian campaign shows the immense progress made in this
respect during the course of the war as the Soviet armed forces learned their
craft on the job.  I might also cite the movement of Colonel-General Pliev's
mixed Soviet and Mongolian cavalry group through the Gobi desert as another
triumph, even if it was a throwback in terms of technology, as the horse
cavalry soon left its mechanized elements far behind.
        Time forces me to break off.


        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:40:04 +0500
From:    Claude Lamazouere <clamazou@MONTREAL.SRC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII German, US & Soviet Veterans

>I am in touch with two Luftwaffe vets, one was a vet of JV44, Wolfgang
>spate, who finished out the war on the western front with Galland's
>group.  I have some addresses of Luftwaffe reunion groups but I haven't
>checked them all out.  If you need information contact me.
>


I'm still interested in getting the information.  Would you please tell me
how to get in touch with them?
Thank you for your help
Claude Lamazouere, Societe Radio-Canada
clamazou@montreal.src.ca
tel: (514) 597-5773
fax: (514) 597-5728

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:58:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and  "Victory at Sea"  (was- Re: Battle of the

Hello, Brad and Henry!

Just a note to add to your post.

>         I believe I have seen the film segment that you mentioned and
> I think it was the HMS Barham.  I should warn you that I am dealing
> from my fuzzy and aging memory here.

    No doubt. The man who sank the Barham was Lt-Cdr.
(Fregattenkapitaen Hans-Diedrich Freiherr von Tiesenhausen, who lives
today in Canada.) Needless to say, he was awarded the Knight's Cross
for this accomplishment.

    Thought this would be of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:46:13 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

see below----

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Kelvin Brent Luther wrote:

> >         Finally, the only country not to contribute to the holocaust was
> > Bulgaria.  They refused to export their Jewish population to Poland...

Hokay, I think enough's been said about both the Danish & Finnish
reactions to the Holocaust to correct THAT statement, but here's another
title worth looking for--

THE BULGARIAN JEWS AND THE FINAL SOLUTION, 1940-1944
Frederick B. Chary.  University of Pittsburgh Press, 1972

Not ALL the Bulgarian Jews were so lucky, especially those living in
Bulgarian-occupied Thrace; 'course, the same could be said for any
non-Bulgarians living in Bulgarian-occupied Thrace as well.  Local
ethnic, ah, enmity, in that part of the Balkans goes way, WAY Back, the
Bulgarians had their share of atrocities/executions/massacres all in the
line of antiguerrilla activities.

>   As for giving military aid I would
> be interested in knowing what kind of contribution Bulgaria made to the
> war effort if anyone out there knows of a source please let me know.

Look for a copy of

BULGARIA DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR
Marshall Lee Miller.  Stanford Univeristy Press, 1975.

GERMANY AND ITS ALLIES: A STUDY OF AXIS COLLABORATION DURING THE SECOND
WORLD WAR  also has a good chapter on Bulgaria


>         I also want to come to Bulgaria's defense a little.  They were
> surrounded by hostile countries and made the decision to ally with the
> obvious holder of power in their region against the Russians.

Kelvin, as much as I'm a fan of King Boris (and also a closet fan of the
Royal Bulgarian Navy), I can't quite follow your line of reasoning.  When
the Bulgarians used Nazi Germany to pressure Rumania into relinquishing
the southern Dobrudja viz. the Treaty of Craiova (7th September 1940)
there weren't any Axis forces on ANY Bulgarian border; in fact, the
Balkan-based Little Entente still had a few gasps of life left in it.
The Bulgarian government was one of the very first Balkan nations to
allow Gestapo agents to operate within its country-- early summer 1940
(yeah, BEFORE the French Armistice-- like even BEFORE ITALY  entered
the war)  German troops began entering Bulgaria following Boris' personal
 (and very secretative) request of 18th November; thousands of German troops
 were on station in Bulgaria before the end of 1940 (remember where the
 Wehrmacht launched its invasion of Greece from in March 1941?).
Bulgaria's signature to the Tripartite Pact on 1st March 1941 was more of
a formality by that time.

Oh, I do agree that as Axis powers go Bulgaria wasn't evil incarnate, but
just like Rumania (hey, we ALL know how I feel about them), it warn't no
unblemished saint, either.

                                                         G.A.K.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 07:46:54 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

At 10:51 PM 3/14/95, Jodi Berls wrote:
[...]

>     Maybe I'm slightly prejudiced, being a (transplanted) Texan myself, but
>I've always thought there was much about Nimitz to respect. I seem to recall
>having read somewhere that Nimitz was one of the few commanders who privately
>expressed some displeasure to Mush Morton, though like the others he made no
>public statement. I can't locate an authenticating source for that one,
>however, and it may be a case of Swiss-cheese memory or some movie scene
>floating around in the back of my mind. I suppose a private reprimand is
>better than nothing, and it would explain why Morton didn't make any effort
>to repeat his attacks on survivors in subsequent patrols.

Jodi,

I concur in your appreciation of Nimitz and I have no connection with
Texas.  Even if you consider that by comparison to Ernie King and Mac,
almost anybody would be appealing, I've always thought he was someone to
admire.  I also feel that way about Spruance, but then of course that could
be because I'm a displaced Hoosier.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 10:19:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastern Front

Hello, Allen!

I posted a long list of books dealing with that subject area around
the first of the year. You might contact Joe Barone, the list owner,
and have him give you the archive address to access it. The subject
area in which you are interested carries a multitude of fine works on
this topic.

Sorry I could't be of more use.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 10:25:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: KAMIKAZES AIRCRAFTS

Hello, Jorge!


>         Does anybody know which aircrafts were chosen for the Kamikazes pilots?
>         Is there a source where I can find how many Kamikazes were in the WWII?,
> Which target they preferred?, A diary of their missions etc?....

    The Divine Wind by Jiro Horikoshi and Okumiya is a good source on
this topic.

    Kamikazes took several forms, not just the aircraft version.
There were also suicide torpedo units as well.

    The preferred target was the aircraft carrier. A Lt. Seki was the
first Kamikaze pilot, taking off from the Philippines in search of a
carrier.

    Hope this helps, and I am certain that others may have already
answered this question.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 10:30:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO. German Professor Abbreviations

Hello, Cheryl and Matthew!

Would like to add a note to the post.

> Dipl. Ing.  is short for Diplom Ingenieur which world be someone who as a
> certificate in engineering.

    This degree is awarded only through a Technical High School,
which is an area of higher education separate from the university
system.



> Dr. Ing. is short for Doktor Ingenieur which would be someone with his
> doctorate in engineering.

    Indicates that an individual had to have received this degree
from a university.

    Thanks for allowing my comment.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:35:09 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Martin James Monti



        For those so inclined, the opinion for Mr. Monti's petition for Habeas
Corpus can be found at 79 Fed. Supp. 651 (volume 79, p. 651 of the Federal
Supplement). It was denied and his conviction was upheld.

Patrick J. Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 10:42:32 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on Bong

Hello, Chris!

Thanks for the post.

 If he'd had a wingman it didn't do
> him any good.

    Perhaps in that situation, but attacking a bomber formation is
not the same thing as a dogfight with opposing fighters, where mutual
protection is essential, and a good wingman will always stick with
his leader.

    Thanks for allowing my comment. Please let me hear yours.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 11:44:08 -0400
From:    Sam Lashlee <salashlee@VAXSAR.VASSAR.EDU>
Subject: help

I am not sure where to send this message, but I hope someone on the list has
an answer.  I would like to get a copy of the last weeks digests so that I
can get a little bit of a history on conversations that are currently going
on.  Is there a command I can send to LISTSERV or anywhere else to do that?
I have access to NetScape (like Mosaic), if that is something that is
available on the WWW.

Thanks

Sam
SaLashlee@vassar.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:47:14 -0800
From:    Vince Harms <vharms@LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Subject: South Pacific Theatre

Looking for anyone who was in the 40th Division, Headquarters 160th
Infantry.

Send information to:
Vince Harms
4737 SE Foss Road
Port Orchard, WA  98366

e-mail - vharms@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us



------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 11:18:54 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Intro and questions

Hi Doug,

> My primary interests are WWII military history but I do read about other
> eras.

Your in the right place then :-)  Welcome abord!

> I collect WWII edged weapons as well as other military items and I am looking
> for PT Boat items.

There are a number of collectors on this list.  I collect uniforms,
insignia and decorations of the 3rd Reich and there are others who
are also afflicted with this mental disorder.

> Is acceptable to advertise to sell or purchase military collectables,
> including vehicles, on this list?

I dunno, nobody has brought it up before but it would be up to the
list owner.  I tend to think not but if you had something you could
probably send a note telling folks to backchannel you for details.

> Is there a Militaria collectors List?

I don't know of one on Internet but there is one on another network.
Backchannel me and I'll put you in touch.

> Is there a Military Vehicles Collectors list?

Don't know of one.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:22:02 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Commercialism

        The policy for advertising on the mailing list is that
commercial enterprises are forbidden to do so.  Individuals who
wish to thin their collections (or a friend's) should feel free
to send a message to the list.  I ask that members who do this
use the SALE, TRADE, and WANT flags in the Subject: line.  Traffic
in this area has been insignificant to none so I don't really
foresee a monstrous increase in bandwidth.  If it should become
a problem, then it will be trottled back.  Of course, all of this
assumes that the items listed are WWII memorabilia or somehow
connected to WWII.  Selling computers, legal services, or pyramid
scams are right out!
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:18:02 -0500
From:    Sean Barnett <sbarnett@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: TAC- Enterprise Green

        Reply to:   RE>TAC: Enterprise Green



From: Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject:      TAC: Enterprise Green
To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
        In August and September 1940, while a large German force was being
assembled in the Channel ports to invade England, a smaller force was also
being assembled for a similar operation.  The target of this force was
Ireland and the Germans showed uncharacteristic irony when they named the
operation Enterprise Green.

 Regarding a potential German invasion of England, there has been an
interesting discussion going on on the newsgroup alt.war about the potential
for U.S. intervention to prevent such an operation.  One aspect of the
discussion centered on whether the U.S. could have intervened and whether it
would have (given the politics of the time and the views of the  major
decisionmakers).  I belive that it has been the policy of the U.S. to prevent
the domination of the European landmass by a single power because that would
pose a real threat to U.S. independence and that thus the U.S. would likely
have intervened in the event the Germans had invaded England.  However,
others disagree, and my recollection of U.S. policy may be incorrect--the
policy may have been formulated during the war.  I was wondering whether
anyone has any information regarding the thoughts of military and political
leaders at the time as to a potential U.S. intervention.

Thanks,

Sean Barnett

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:52:24 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: IJN armored cruiser

Carlos,

     This was in a biography of Nimitz, and I think I'll let
*you* look it up.  :-)

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 11:18:11 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martin James Monti

        I don't know what happened, here goes again....

        The decision regarding Martin James Monti's habaes corpus
petition can be found at 79 Fed. Supp. 651 (volume 79, p.651 of the
Federal Supplememt).  It was denied and his conviction was upheld.

pchuck@u.washington.edu
Patrick J. Charles


On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Patrick Charles wrote:

> Corpus can be found at 79 Fed. Supp. 651 (volume 79, p. 651 of the Federal
> Supplement). It was denied and his conviction was upheld.
>
> Patrick J. Charles
> pchuck@u.washington.edu
>
> QUIT
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:29:42 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

> I agree with te opinion that V-J should be used.  I was a Viet Nam era
> vet.  Never got near the place but I was a real live air force vol. and
> proud of it.  The fact that we one WWII and the fact that we were right
> gives us the right to use V-E or V-J any time or place that we see fit.
>
> George Bowman


Just some musings and please, PLEASE don't think I'm being PC but if
VE day is Victory in Europe then why not celebrate VP day as Victory
in the Pacific?  We don't refer to VE Day as Victory over Germany
Day.  I think it was an artifact of the era.   Somebody called it VJ
Day in 1944 or 45 and it stuck.

If this catches on, remember, you heard it here first!

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 15:06:46 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: KAMIKAZES AIRCRAFTS

        I looked up that book I referred to in my answer to your post.  It is
"I Was A Kamikaze" by Reiyuji Nagatsuka.  You might want to look it up.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:53:30 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: VJ vs. VE

The question was raised why VE (Victory in Europe) vs. VJ (Victory over
Japan)... Questions like Victory over Germany, Victory in the Pacific,
etc.

Ironically, I started thinking about this a few days ago, and the main
rationale seems to be fairly simple:

In Europe, there were many distinct and independent combatants in varying
degrees.  Germany wasn't the sole enemy to the Allies.  Italy was also a
clear and distinct enemy.  Other countries join on the side of the Axis in
either full, partial or conciliatory ways.  While we like to focus on
Germany, as the main driving force, perhaps, there only truly distinct
representation would be Europe (Even though that includes people and
countries that were not part of the Axis desires).

Hence, VE Day.

The Pacific is, for the most part, different.  Japan is the clear driving
force here, but there wasn't a real "coalition" of countries making up
the Pacific front.  It was, for all practical purposes, the Allies forces
vs. the Japanese.

And thus was born VJ Day.

In the terms of the time and history, the designations would be appropriate.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:08:11 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg con't

On 3/13/95 Jeff J. Dingbaum wrote:
>The first thing you see entering the tunnel is the date on top (1938 if
>my memory is any good).  You walk down the dimly lit tunnel and you can
>almost feel Hitler walking next to you.  It is really eerie.  According
>to the tour guides he was fond of walking the tunnel, but not so enamored
>of the elevator.

One of the things about the elevator I found particularly ironic was that
if you look near the door you will see a plaque that says, "Otis Elevators,
Chicago Ill."

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:12:19 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Glacier Girl Pictures

I have scanned Dennis Sparks' latest pictures of this P-38F restoration,
and offered them to BYRD.  I'm awaiting a response.

If anyone knows of another FTP site that would want to carry them,
please get me the details.

--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:35:25 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP Re: IJN armored cruiser

 Carlos R.Rivera wrote on Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:09:35 -0500 and mentioned the
 IJN Ship MIKASA.

 Carlos and Lew,

 MIKASA was built in England by Vickers of Barrow and completed on
 1 March 1902. MIKASA represented a predilection: for her time, she was the
 biggest, strongest *battleship* in the world. Four hondred feet long, her beam
 was 76 feet, her draft just over 27 feet. Her power came from vertical triple
 expansion boilers of the Belleville type, not one of the latest, but one of
 the most reliable kinds available. With them she could steam at up to
 18 knots, and with a maximum fuel capacity  of 2,000 tons of coal her
 theoretical maximum radius without refueling was 9,000 sea miles at 10 knots.
 Her armament was impressive: four 12-inch guns, two forward and two aft;
 fourteen 6-inch and twenty 3-inch quick-fire mounts; 12- 47mm guns, the
 small 2.5 or 3-pounders; and four underwater torpedo-tubes.

 MIKASA was launched 8 November 1900, and completed 1 March 1902; she was
 Admiral Togo's flagship in the Russo-Japanese War. On the night of
 11-12 September 1905, she sank at her moorings in Sasebo after an
 ammunition and torpedo explosion. She was raised 7 August 1906 and repaired at
 Sasebo and  re-entered service on 24 August 1908. In September 1921, she was
 re-rated as a 1st Class coast-defence ship, but on 17 September in the same
 year, she ran aground near Askold Island off Vladivostok; refloated and
 strickened 20 September 1923. On 12 November 1926, she was opened as a
 memorial by Prince Hirohito and Admiral Togo at Yokosuka, where she
 remained until 1945. She deteriorated between 1945 and 1959, but in 1960
 she was restored.

 Sources: _The Fighting Ships of the Rising Sun: The Drama of the Imperial
 Japanese Navy 1895-1945_, by Stephen Howarth, 1983 and _Warships of the
 Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945_, by Jentschura, Dieter, and Mickel,
 USNI Press.




  Carl Wernke
  History Instructor
  Tidewater Community College

 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:37:02 -0600
From:    Mark J Weber <mjweber@PIPER.HAMLINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doenitz

He wrote his own autobiography, published in 1960.


--
Dr. Mark J. Weber                       mjweber@piper.hamline.edu
Department of Management and Economics  tel (w) 612-641-2431
Hamline University                      fax (w) 612-641-2956
1536 Hewitt Ave.                        tel (h) 612-475-2960
St. Paul, MN 55104                      fax (h) 612-476-8309

On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

> While we're still on the subject of Karl Doenitz (or before we get too far
> off it), can someone please recommend a good biography of him? I also would
> be interested in a similar work about Otto "the tonnage king" Kretschmer, if
> there is one.
>
> Jodi Berls
> jberls@aol.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:39:36 -0600
From:    Mark J Weber <mjweber@PIPER.HAMLINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: Looking for Soviet tactical practices

You might try some of David Glantz' books. He is an expert on Soviet
operations/tactics. Only parts of these works are batallion level
studies, however.


--
Dr. Mark J. Weber                       mjweber@piper.hamline.edu
Department of Management and Economics  tel (w) 612-641-2431
Hamline University                      fax (w) 612-641-2956
1536 Hewitt Ave.                        tel (h) 612-475-2960
St. Paul, MN 55104                      fax (h) 612-476-8309

On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, James Sulzen wrote:

> I am looking for insightful references to the Eastern front conflict
> describing Soviet tactical practices and performances.  Given the opening
> of access to Soviet sources in recent years, I had hoped by now to see some
> good preliminary studies covering the tactical level
> (company/battalion/brigade) using Soviet sources.  I assume there must be
> researchers digging through what must be an untold wealth of primary and
> secondary material.  However, I haven't seen anything along the lines of
> what I'm looking for.
>
> There of course are a plethora of high-level histories covering the gross
> movement of the front (corps/army/army group), but I personally have never
> encountered anything that provides the slightest insight into Soviet
> tactical success/failure.  I have seen a number of studies covering
> tactical organization and performance of, for instance U.S. and German
> ground forces (the most notable I have read being van Creveld's "Fighting
> Power").   But even the German sources I've seen tend to dismiss Soviet
> success as simply due to overwhelming mass.  Such explanations are neither
> insightful nor complete (nor do I believe, particularly fair).
>
> I have a slight interest in operational histories (which unit did what to
> whom, where and when), but am mostly interested in studies of tactical and
> operational practices and organization (company and battalion formations
> used in defense/attack. how long for such formations to formulate and
> launch an attack or put together a defense, etc.).
>
> I'd prefer to own the sources, so books in print are the most valuable
> references.  However, I do have access to the University of California
> library system, so I can probably dig up any particular volume, no matter
> how obscure.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> QUIT
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:06:33 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

On 3/13/95 Jodi Berls wrote:
>I've seen numerous other accounts, but this probably tells you what you want
>to know. Please note that I didn't cite this incident primarily to dump on Dud
>ley Morton -- although I'm deeply uncomfortable with the notion of firing on
>survivors, his point about the Japanese troops coming back to haunt Allied
>ground forces is well taken. It's a pretty fine line between killing them by
>torpedoing their ship and killing them by shooting them with a machine gun,
>anyway. What disturbs me most is that this same patrol was held up by navy
>propagandists as a great, heroic venture without making any mention of the
>life boat incident, and there appears to have been no investigation or
>reprimand involved. Apparently the winning side doesn't have to explain
>itself for such actions.

Sad , but true.  In our own Civil War, you can pick up any high school
textbook and read about the attrocities at Andersonville.  But, you have to
dig pretty deep to read about the same conditions and nearly the same death
rate at Ft. Delaware.  Sending young men out, ordrering them to commit the
"ultimate sin", and then sitting back after the fact and wondering whether
they killed justifiably seems absurd.



Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:06:40 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: WW II List subscription info

>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> Thanks for the info on armored vehicles.
>>
>> One other question.
>>
>> What is this lists policy on advertising?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Doug
>>
>
>
>       Speaking for myself Doug I don't mind it as long as its WWII related.
>However I'm sure that Joe has the final word. You out there Joe?

The final word?  Wow, I've been on this list for only two weeks and I've
been promoted to Possessor of the Final Word?  "Vat a country!" :-)

Seriously though, my own, humble opinion echos Scott's.  If it's WWII
related many folks would probably be grateful.

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:05:34 -0500
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: The Ahnenerbe

Can anyone suggest a book dealing with the Ahnenerbe, the ideological,
intellectual (?), and cultural organization within the SS?

I have found bits and pieces in various articles and books, but no
comprehensive history. The most I have been able to find in a single source
so far is the chapter in Frederic Reider's  The Order of the SS.

Many thanks -- Ron Charlton
                       RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:33:42 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Last words on Manchuria

        A few more random comments on Japanese defensive preparations.  I
should mention that the Japanese air forces in Manchuria itself also had twenty
kamikaze aircraft ready for immediate use (E. Bauer, "History of World War II")
The Japanese apparently did have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 armored
vehicles of all types, but as I said, only one complete tank brigade, which was
held near Mukden as part of the Kwantung Army's main reserve.  A second tank
brigade had begun forming the previous month but was not really combat-ready
when the Soviets struck.  Finally, I wanted to say that most of the Japanese
fortified zones, although planned to a depth of up to 25 miles, were in reality
no more than 12 miles deep.  Still, they could be formidable obstacles.
        On a somewhat unrelated subject, since I spoke a little about Japanese
self-propelled guns (and realizing that I missed a couple types) here were the
chief models: the Ho-Ni I mounted the 75-mm antitank gun (Type 90-- the same
weapon carried in the Chi-Nu tank); the Ho-Ni II carried a 105-mm howitzer;
the Ho-Ni III employed the higher-velocity 75-mm antiaircraft gun and featured
additional armor protection-- this model was more akin to the typical "assault
gun."  All of the above were mounted on a turretless Chi-Ha chassis, and came
in at more or less 16 tons.  (from "World Almanac Book of WW2")  The Ho-Ro had
a 150-mm howitzer on a Chi-Ha or Chi-He chassis (from a drawing with specs in
"Liberation of the Phillipines," can't recall the author offhand-- apparently a
few were used by the Japanese armored division on Luzon).  Finally, the
aformentioned Type 2 "gun tank" with a 75-mm howitzer in a rotating turret on
the Chi-He chassis.  Very few of any model were produced, and most that did
appear were developed relatively late in the war, when those handfull that saw
overseas service were further hampered by severe fuel shortages.
        At any rate, the Soviet attack forces in Manchuria were divided up into
three "Fronts" (roughly equivalent to the German or western Allies "Army
Group").  The Trans-Baikal Front, commanded by Marshal Malinovsky (another
heavy hitter from the war against Germany transfered east for this operation--
he assumed command in the Far East when Vasilevsky was called back to his
Moscow duties at the end of September), formed the right side of the
semi-circle of Soviet attacking armies.  This was the grouping that had to
advance through some 200 miles of semi-desert and then cross the Great Khinghan
mountain chain.  It attacked Manchuria from its western and southwestern
borders.  The Trans-Baikal Front had as its spearhead the 6th Guards Tank Army,
with some 800 tanks and self-propelled guns under command, including over 600
of the new-model T-34's.  (BTW, in addition to the numerous T-34's and a small
number of Stalin tanks, the Soviet forces in Manchuria were still employing
several hundred older vehicles-- specifically, BT-5's, BT-7's, and T-26's--
which were in most cases left over from the last round of fighting with the
Japanese in 1939).  On the far right wing of the front was the six-division
mixed Soviet and Mongolian cavalry group under Col-General Pliev (an experienced
commander of horse cavalry who had been fighting continuously since the German
invasion, starting out as a cavalry division commander in 1941).
        The advance of the Trans-Baikal Front was more of a triumph over nature
and geography than over the enemy.  In fact, no enemy was encountered for the
first four days of the campaign.  At times the motor columns proceeded at a
speed of 25 miles per hour, but fuel shortages soon made themselves felt.  It
was in fact the 6th Guards Tank Army which received most of the airlifted fuel
(over 2,000 tons), including the first such shipments on August 10th (Bauer).
The momentum of the advance was maintained, and soon the tanks were winding
their way slowly through the multiple hairpin turns of the roads through the
Khinghan passes.  Unfortunately for the Soviets, these roads were not really
built to hold up under the weight of 600-plus 31-ton tanks, and the truck
columns following behind were delayed by frequent road repairs.  Still, the
advance proceeded more or less according to schedule.  I should also state, in
reference to the generally excellent Soviet staff work, that the radio com
links between air and ground reconnaisance, command staffs, and the main
columns also functioned extremely well (radio communications being another area
in which the Soviet forces had been noticeably deficient earlier in the war).
Once the main Japanese fortified areas on the east side of the mountains were
reached, the tactics of Malinovsky's front was to mask the heavily defended
areas with infantry and allow the armored/mechanized columns to push on,
driving deep wedges into the Japanese defenses in true "blitzkrieg" fashion.
        The eastern half of the great pincers squeezing Manchuria was formed by
the 1st Far East Front under Meretskov.  They attacked west and southwest from
the strip of Soviet coastal territory interposed between the northern half of
Manchuria and the sea.  I earlier recounted the story of the 1st Far East
Front's dramatic breaching of the frontier fortifications without artillery
preparations.  They had amassed a density of 320 guns per mile for the
carefully-prepared assault, and also positioned powerful searchlights to blind
the defenders, but torrential rains had disrupted the timetable.  While waiting
for the rain to stop Meretskov had authorized the attack to go forward, and the
combination of driving rains and darkness had allowed the well-rehearsed shock
troops to close with the defenses undetected (helped by the element of surprise
abetted by the lack of preliminary bombardment).  The forward elements managed
to advance 7.5 miles in the first 24 hours, but it still took two days to break
free of the frontier fortifications.  Meretskov's forces then found themselves
almost immediately up against an even stronger position in the defenses
surrounding Mutankiang (and here the continuing rain worked against them by
denying them the advantage of their air superiority), and 1st Far East Front
had to face some heavy counterattacks by the strong concentration of Japanese
forces in that area before the city fell August 16th (aided by the clearing
skies).
        The 2nd Far East Front was massed along the Amur river on Manchuria's
northern border.  This grouping was commanded by General Purkayev, who had been
the Soviet commander in the Far East for most of the war.  The troops, too,
were mainly composed of men who had already been in the east prior to the
massive Soviet concentration.  Most of these therefore lacked battle
experience, but they were familiar with the territory and conditions, and
efforts had been made to provide as many units as possible with combat training
under veterans of the German war.  Their advance was more of a frontal push
while the tank and mechanized forces of the other two fronts made deep
penetrations from both flanks further south.  On this front the Japanese 134th
Division made a particularly strong stand, initially holding off the first
Soviet division to cross the Sungari river in the direction of the industrial
center of Harbin.  The advance got bogged down to the extent that Purkayev had
to personally take command in that sector to get things moving.
        The Japanese resistance, already virtually doomed to failure by the
crushing material superiority of the Soviets, was further confounded by
confusion and disintegration in the command structure.  Lt-Gen Hata later
admitted that many of the troops of the Kwantung Army had been out of the
control of Army HQ after the first few days, due to the rapid Soviet advances
which disrupted communications (Vasilevsky).  BTW, the Soviets had also taken
extremely great pains to camouflage their massive build-up, and had been
successful enough that tactical surprise was acheived in many cases during the
first assaults.  Confusion over the Emporer's surrender message further
aggravated the Japanese situation.  When the Emporer's message was broadcast,
followed the next day (August 16th) by specific orders to cease hostilities,
the Japanese 3rd Army in Manchuria immediately ordered its forces to stop
fighting, only to have this instantly countermanded by Kwantung Army HQ.
Yamada, in fact, would not believe the Emporer's message until he received
orders in writing (Aug 17th).  The main centers of eastern Manchuria, including
the most important ports, were not secured until after the general Japanese
surrender had begun.  Mukden was taken August 20th, Dairen and Port Arthur on
the 22nd.  These were some of the airborne and amphibious operations I referred
to in the last post.
        In addition to the 594,000 prisoners (about half a million of whom were
released between 1948 and 1950), the Soviets claim to have killed over 83,000
Japanese during the campaign.  Japanese records are incomplete, but confirm
that at least 21,000 military personnel were killed in action.  The Soviets
admitted to over 30,000 casualties, including some 8,200 killed (Bauer).  In
concurrent actions, the Soviets also overran southern Sakhalin island and the
Kurile island chain.  On southern Sakhalin the 20,000 Japanese military
personnel, though outnumbered by more than three to one in men and ten to one
in artillery, put up a fierce resistance.  Rather than fight through the strong
fortifications along the frontier, the Soviets supported their frontal attack
with an amphibious landing.  But the Japanese counterattacked, and actually cut
off part of the division that landed.  Further landings, however, stretched the
defenders beyond their limited capacity, and by the 20th the island was
secured.
        In a China post tie-in, I wanted to say that once the Soviet operation
was under way, Mao's Communist armies began their own offensive in support.
Specifically, the 8th Route Army, which had given the Japanese so many
headaches over the preceding five-plus years, began a two-pronged advance
northward.  Its eastern arm struck northeast in the general direction of
Peking, while the left wing drove straight north to link up with the right wing
of the Soviet forces.  As I alluded to in a much earlier post, the link-up
benefitted the Chinese Communists in that the Soviets provided them with a
goodly quantity of Soviet and captured Japanese weapons.
        One last addition/clarification.  The two cruisers in Admiral
Yumashev's Pacific Fleet were the KALININ and the KAGANOVICH.  Both were
constructed in the Amur river shipyards, and completed in 1944.  These were
KIROV-class ships, designed and built with considerable Italian assistance.
They were fast for their size, reportedly making over 35 knots under optimum
conditions, and each mounted nine 180-mm guns.  The Soviets, BTW, had planned
to base the two super-battleships they began building in the 1930's in the
Pacific, had they ever completed them (another indication that Japanese fears
regarding Soviet intentions on the Pacific seaboard were not unfounded).  These
two vessels, the SOVIETSKY SOYUZ and the SOVIETSKAYA UKRAINA, would have come
in at over 65,000 tons combat-loaded, mounting nine 16-inch guns and boasting
armor that equaled or exceeded that of the Japanese YAMATO-class, but lack of
funds and steel caused them to be essentially abandoned before the war began
(Antony Preston, "The Russian Navy," in "The Soviet War Machine 1917-45").
Finally, while discussing Soviet naval dispositions, in addition to Yumashev's
fleet the Russian forces also included the Amur River Flotilla, which disposed
in 1945 of more than 60 armed gunboats, patrol craft, and motor launches, as
well as over 100 conscripted civilian river steamers and 70 aircraft
(Vasilevsky).
        Aside from the sources cited, I also consulted Ian Hogg, "The War
Against Japan" in "The Soviet War Machine 1917-45."  And here, with the last
acts of the war for the Japanese, is a good place to end this lengthy labor.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:04:50 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nimitz and ... MIKASA?

Carl,

     Thanks, but I knew/know the MIKASA was a battleship --
or at least predreadnought, of course -- and I don't think
it was she.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:38:31 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: CONVENTION UPDATE:  "Little Wars," 18-19Mar95,
         Chicago/O'Hare/Ramada Inn

In case anyone from my history and gaming nets are in the area
  and want to drop by to say Hello!  (Ummm ... There *is* an
  admission fee, for spectators, though.  There are usually
  *book* dealers, in the dealers' area, too.)

"Little Wars" will be held in the Ramada at O'Hair Int. Airport.
  This is the big toy soldiers and wargaming convention in the
  Midwest, until summer.

I'll be running a 1:1200 Battle of the Java Sea, starting 9AM
  on Sunday (the 19th), for sure -- using my "Naval Action"
  naval wargaming rules.  I've talked with Frank Chadwick, again,
  and Game Designers Workshop is still considering publishing
  them, *if* we can come to terms, etc.

I *should* be running a GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR tournament
  on Saturday, starting at noon, also.  I am still debugging
  SKY, SEA, AND JUNGLE:  THE *HORROR* OF GUADALCANAL, AUG-DEC42.
  (Yes, manual boardgames have to be de-bugged playtested, too.
  :-)  )

ABDA to Victory!  :-)

(I have the *perfect* strategy.  :-)  Incidentally, the rules
  are simple and the ships are fascinating -- once I get them
  finally fitted out for "sea"  :-) -- so if you want to
  command a division of destroyers, .... )

Lou Coatney, 1:1200 ABDA Fleet Commander at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:07:33 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Victory at Sea series

The recent discussion about accuracy in the Victory at Sea series has
reminded me that I have seen some mention of it being available on
videodisc.  Regardless of some inaccurate footage, this would be an
invaluable resource for teaching WWII.  I have not been successful in
tracking down the videodisc version.  Anyone able to help?

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:26:49 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <wind6011@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: POL: Italian Surrender

Hey Big Joe!

I am currently working on a paper discussing the Allied lack of
co-ordination between military and political strategy with regards to the
surrender of Italy and the launching of "Baytown//Avalanche.  I am trying
to outline some of the factors that contributed to this bungle.  In
particular, I am focusing on the failure to translate broad political and
strategic goals like knocking Italy out of the war and securing bomber
bases, into a set of operational objectives.

I have a couple of questions.  Can you point me towards some good stuff
that deals with the Italian perspective, but that has been published in
English.  I do have Badoglio's book.  Also, my prof pointed me towards an
article in the "Journal of Contemporary History" vol 24 1989.  James J.
Sadkovich is the author of this article entitled "Understanding Defeat:
Reappraising Italy's Role in WWII".  I've just had a quick look at it and
while he makes some good points, some of his arguments seem a little
stretched.  In your travels, have you ever come across this article and
if so, does it hold water?  I greatly appreciate any help you can offer.
I know you are a busy fellow so if you could through a book title or two
at me I woulbe be lots happy!

For the benefit of the other members on the list, Sadkovich is arguing
that western historians have created a myth of poor Italian performance
and that given her industrial capacity, Italian forces performed quite
well.  While some of what he says may be true, it would seem that the
evidence he uses to support some of his claims seems shaky.  He also
makes some strong accusations about British responsability for Italian
involvement in the war, again without too much evidence to sustain his
argument.

I may be wrong in my criticism so if anyone has anything to add on this
issue please pipe in!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:29:30 -0500
From:    Lee Windsor u <wind6011@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Re: POL: Italian Surrender

Sorry I forgot to sign that last post.

Lee A. Windsor                             wind6011@mach1.wlu.ca.
8th Canadian Hussars                                  35 High St.
Wilfrid Laurier U.                                  Waterloo, ONT
Waterloo, Ontario                                         N2L 3X7
                         "Semper Fidelis"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:46:37 EST
From:    "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: DOC: U.S. Army Pearl Harbor Board.

The U.S. Army Pearl Harbor Inquiry Board Report has been uploaded to

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
/pub/history/military/wwii/pearl.harbor/army.board

This is the wartime investigative board, convened before the Congressional
investigation of 1946, and frequently cited in those hearings.

Larry J

LJEWELL@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Mod.: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:36:47 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: endlossung/Germans or Nazis?

On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Greg Kelley wrote:

> see below----
>
>                                           Glad To Be Of Service!
>
>                                           Greg Kelley
>                                           St. Paul Public Library
>                                           gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us
>
>
> Kelvin, as much as I'm a fan of King Boris (and also a closet fan of the
> Royal Bulgarian Navy), I can't quite follow your line of reasoning.  When
> the Bulgarians used Nazi Germany to pressure Rumania into relinquishing
> the southern Dobrudja viz. the Treaty of Craiova (7th September 1940)
> there weren't any Axis forces on ANY Bulgarian border; in fact, the
> Balkan-based Little Entente still had a few gasps of life left in it.
> The Bulgarian government was one of the very first Balkan nations to
> allow Gestapo agents to operate within its country-- early summer 1940
> (yeah, BEFORE the French Armistice-- like even BEFORE ITALY  entered
> the war)  German troops began entering Bulgaria following Boris' personal
>  (and very secretative) request of 18th November; thousands of German troops
>  were on station in Bulgaria before the end of 1940 (remember where the
>  Wehrmacht launched its invasion of Greece from in March 1941?).
> Bulgaria's signature to the Tripartite Pact on 1st March 1941 was more of
> a formality by that time.
>
> Oh, I do agree that as Axis powers go Bulgaria wasn't evil incarnate, but
> just like Rumania (hey, we ALL know how I feel about them), it warn't no
> unblemished saint, either.
>
>                                                          G.A.K.
>
> QUIT
>
        Thanks for your reply.  I didn't mean to portray Bulgaria as
saintly with regards to their actions in WWII but was replying to the
popular trend to speak of how some countries occupied by Germany
shouldn't be held responsible for the holocaust (especially and
specifically Poland).  I think the problem is that I am new at this and
should have provided quotes of what I was replying to so that the content
of previous posts wasn't lost in the discussion.  I quess the way I
feel about Bulgaria's involvement with Germany is this.  They have been
involved in numerous wars in the Balkans.  They saw as primary enemies I
would think Rumania, Russia, Turkey, Greece, and Yugoslavia.  They were
looking out for number one and got in on the ground floor with the
Germans. If it had not been for the Austrian Emperor's support in 1908,
there probably would not have been an independant Bulgaria at that time
so they were perhaps predisposed to allying with the Germans.  When it
counted they refused to export their Jewish population.
        Germany was the only power in the region they had no history of
warring with not to mention having been allied with them in WWI.  There
was at all times a significant percentage perhaps even a majority that
favored Russia over Germany.  If we are going to denigrate Bulgaria for
allying with the Germans we have to blame King Boris as he was the major
pro German influence at the time.  It was the Russophilic faction in
Bulgaria that prevented him from following Germany into Russia as he
feared civil war.  In late August `43' Boris was dead yet the Germans
didn't manage to make Bulgaria a puppet at this point either.  Almost
exactly a year later Bulgaria having yet to be at war with Russia sues
for  a seperate peace and calls for the disarmament of German soldiers
on their soil.  The Russians declare war on Bulgaria on Sept. 5th even
though Bulgaria is now in a state of war with Germany.
        The involvement of Bulgaria in the war allied to Germany was
simply the expedient method for them to regain the territory lost to
Yugoslavia, Greece, and Romania in the treaty of Neuilly.  This mirrors
the Versaille treaty where the victors took the spoils.  The role
Versaille played in laying the foundations for another war is the same as
the treaty taking land from Bulgaria and giving it to her neighbors with
whom there are longstanding ethnic rivalries and history of conflict.
        I agree with your closing statement that they weren't angels but
then neither were the Russians and they were our allies.  I simply wanted
to put in a different context what I felt was a somewhat misguided way of
looking at holocaust responsibility.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:21:33 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 16-MAR-1945

On 16-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the VII Corps extends the
bridgehead over the Rhine at Remagen. In the 3rd Army sector, the 87th
Division begins the offensive for crossing the Moselle. The XII and XX
Corps also cross the Moselle. In the 7th Army sector, Operation Undertone
continues with the three corps attempting to break through the Siegfried
Line.

Eastern Front - Soviet forces open a drive on Vienna.

Philippines - In the XI Corps area, the 6th Division prepares to renew the
eastward drive against the Shimbu Line. Elements of the 43rd Division are
unable to progress in the Sugar Loaf area. In the XIV Corps area, the 158th
Infantry reaches Mabini. This completes the capture of the Calumpan
Peninsula. Elements of the 41st Division land on Basilian Island.

Iwo Jima - Iwo Jima is declared secure at 1800, though the Japanese
continue to hold out on the northern tip.

The Homefront
-------------
Special Army Oath For Japanese-Americans - The War Department says that
U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry must take a special oath foreswearing
"allegiance or obediance to the Japanese Emperor" before acceptance into
the Army.

New Presidential Aide - Col. Richard Park has been appointed military aide
to President Roosevelt.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 04:42:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: VJ vs. VE

Robert J. Granvin wrote:

  > The question was raised why VE (Victory in Europe) vs. VJ (Victory over
  > Japan)...
  > The Pacific is, for the most part, different.  Japan is the clear
  > driving force here, but there wasn't a real "coalition" of countries
  > making up the Pacific front.

Did Japan have Pacific allies?  I vaguely recall that the puppet regimes of
Thailand and Manchukuo may have declared war on the US.  Also perhaps the
exile nationalist "governments" of India and maybe Indonesia.  Does anyone
know?

Ed Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Mar 1995 to 15 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 15 Mar 1995 to 16 Mar 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 30 messages totalling 1138 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nimitz vs.(?) the Axis
  2. QUES: Mountbatten pink (2)
  3. TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS
  4. INF: USN Chronology 03-16-95
  5. TAC- Enterprise Green
  6. [INF] USAAF 16 MAR 45
  7. VJ vs. VE
  8. Bouillard
  9. Dudley Morton
 10. Mush Morton
 11. Strange American Desertion...
 12. Nimitz vs.(?)
 13. REF: Looking for Soviet tactical practices
 14. Mountbatten Pink
 15. Churchill and Ireland (2)
 16. Big guns (Japanese)
 17. MEDIA:Argentina Returns Ex-Nazi
 18. MEDIA:Iwo Jima II
 19. Ref: Defense of Truman
 20. MEDIA:RETURN TO IWO JI
 21. a new military history list
 22. WEAP: Glacier Girl Pictures
 23. Japan's role in WWII (2)
 24. MUSH MORTON
 25. POW treatment
 26. INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-MAR-1945
 27. HUMOR - Nimitz & MacArthur

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 04:42:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Nimitz vs.(?) the Axis

Louis Coatney wrote:

  > After the war, we were about to scrap an old Japanese armored cruiser
  > which had been preserved after the Russo-Japanese War.  Nimitz
  > interceded and saved the ship, to the (everlasting?) gratitude of the
  > Japanese people and their Navy.

It was the =MIKASA=, Admiral Togo's flagship at the battle of Tsushima,
1905.  At the time she was the world's largest battleship.  In their zeal US
occupation forces tossed her guns on the beach and otherwise disabled her.
She has now been beautifully restored, aground in concrete at Yokosuka with
an excellent historical museum below decks.  I was aboard last summer, truly
one of the world's finest museum ships.

A footnote: Togo's famous "Z" flag, which flew on the carrier =AKAGI= at
Pearl Harbor, is now a symbol of Japanese nationalist right wingers. It
flies (along with the rising sun naval ensign) from black loudspeaker vans
racing noisily through Tokyo.

Ed Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 00:11:12 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: QUES: Mountbatten pink

Lou Coatney wrote:

>a kind of greyish pink!  (Is that what fuschia is?)

No, fuschia is a really loud purplish pink. (I was being a bit facetious
about that one -- way too loud for camo, I would think.)

> so a number of ships
  bathed themselves in this, before the Admiralty really
  started dictating camouflage schemes.

When would that have been? Specifically, for my purposes, would it have been
before or after mid-1942?

Thanks very much for the info. I'm sure my friend will be delighted.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 06:54:41 +0000
From:    Nechama Cox <nechama@BOREALIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TACTICAL AFTERTHOUGHTS

I thought the difference in the phrasing was because the victory in Europe
was not just in Germany, but in all the countries that Germany had
occupied, and the other Axis Powers. This was not the case in the Pacific.

Just my $.02

Nechama Cox
nechama@borealis.com


>Just some musings and please, PLEASE don't think I'm being PC but if
>
>VE day is Victory in Europe then why not celebrate VP day as Victory
>
>in the Pacific?  We don't refer to VE Day as Victory over Germany
>
>Day.  I think it was an artifact of the era.   Somebody called it VJ
>
>Day in 1944 or 45 and it stuck.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 04:00:14 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-16-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/16 Fri. Iwo Jima, Volcano Islands, is declared secured.
           Army forces supported by destroyer gunfire land on
           Basilan Island, Sulu Archipelago, P. I.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             LST 928, by grounding, Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 69, by Army aircraft,
              South China Sea,
              19 d. 02'N., 110 d. 56'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC- Enterprise Green

 >        In August and September 1940,
 >        while.a.large.German.force.was.being@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
 >Status: O
 >
 >assembled in the Channel ports to invade England, a smaller force was also
 >being assembled for a similar operation.  The target of this force was
 >Ireland and the Germans showed uncharacteristic irony when they named the
 >operation Enterprise Green.
 >
 > Regarding a potential German invasion of England, there has been an
 >interesting discussion going on on the newsgroup alt.war about the potential
 >for U.S. intervention to prevent such an operation.  One aspect of the
 >discussion centered on whether the U.S. could have intervened and whether it
 >would have (given the politics of the time and the views of the  major
 >decisionmakers).  I belive that it has been the policy of the U.S. to prevent
 >the domination of the European landmass by a single power because that would
 >pose a real threat to U.S. independence and that thus the U.S. would likely
 >have intervened in the event the Germans had invaded England.  However,
 >others disagree, and my recollection of U.S. policy may be incorrect--the
 >policy may have been formulated during the war.  I was wondering whether
 >anyone has any information regarding the thoughts of military and political
 >leaders at the time as to a potential U.S. intervention.
 >Thanks,
 >Sean Barnett

IMHO, the US had neither the resources NOR the will to become
involved in this operation.  My people in the Irish-American
community would have probably supported it but I doubt if the
rest of the country would want to go to war for Ireland.  And FDR
would not have had the political support in the Congress.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:04:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 16 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 16 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): Because of a navigational error, 2 B-24s on a
photo mission to Matsuwa Island reach 130 miles (209 km) S of the island, the
deepest penetration of the Japanese Home Islands to date; the B-24s turn N,
photograph Matsuwa Island and bomb Shimushiru Island with unobserved results.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 32 B-24s, escorted by 10
P-51s, pound the N railroad yards at Shihkiachwang; 1 B-25 and 2 P-51s attack
the railroad between Sinsiang and Shihkiachwang; the detachment of the 16th
Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, operating from Laohokow with P-51s,
returns to base at Chengkung (another detachment is operating from Poseh).

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 23 P-47s support forces of
the Chinese 50th Division in the Hsipaw area; 4 P-38s, supporting the British
36 Division, bomb artillery positions NE of Mogok; 12 B-25s blast a fuel dump
and troop concentration at Panghai; and 40 P-38s sweep roads S of the bomb
line. Transport operations continue on a steady basis.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): During the night of 16/17 Mar,
12 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany and the Netherlands and 20 of 22 B-24s
fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 280+ A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s hit the Landau barracks area and communications center, the
Niederscheld town area and rail bridge, 6 other town areas, a marshalling
yard, rail junction, crossroads, and also drop leaflets; fighters escort
the bombers, fly patrols, sweeps, armed reconnaissance, and cover the VIII,
XII, and XX Corps in an assault across the Mosel River from W of Koblenz and
N of Boppard, at one point, as far E as Bad Kreuznach, and as far S as
Merzig; HQ 365th Fighter Group moves from Juzaine Airfield, Florennes,
Belgium to Aachen; the 153d Liaison Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command
(attached to Twelfth Army Group), moves from Duren to Euskirchen with L-5s;
and the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves from St Dizier to
Conflans, France with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 720+ B-24s and B-17s bomb the
Korneuburg, Vienna/Floridsdorf, Schwechat, and Moosbierbaum, Austria oil
refineries and marshalling yards at Sankt Veit an der Glan, Amstetten, and
Graz, Austria and Varazdin and Pragersko, Yugoslavia; 52 P-51s strafe rail
lines in the Vienna and Linz, Austria and  Passau and Regensburg, Germany
areas and the airfield at Mettenheim, Germany. B-17s and B-24s continue
supply drops to N Italy and Yugoslavia while F-5s and P-38s fly extensive
weather and photo reconnaissance missions; fighters fly 300+ sorties in
escort of the bombers, supply runs, and reconnaissance operations. HQ 1st
Fighter Group and the 27th and 94th Fighter Squadrons move from Salsola
Airfield to Lesina, Italy with P-38s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25s of the 57th Bombardment
Wing, flying their farthest N penetration to date, bomb the Brixlegg, Austria
railroad bridge. In Italy, B-25s also hit the Spilimbergo power plant, with
excellent results, and lightly damage 3 bridges on the Brenner line, 1 in the
C Po Valley, and 1 in NE Italy; XXII Tactical Air Command fighter-bombers
continue to attack communications in the Po Valley and NE Italy, while A-20s
bomb bridges and targets of opportunity on night intruder missions along the
Po R and in the N Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: On Chichi Jima Island, 13 Guam Island-based B-24s bomb
Susaki Airfield; during the night of 16/17 Mar, Susaki Airfield is hit again,
by 5 B-24s flying individual harassment strikes. Iwo Jima Island in the
Volcano Islands is declared secure although fierce resistance continues on
some parts of the island.
    VII Fighter Command: 16 Iwo-based P-51s dive-bomb and strafe radio and
radar installations, gun positions, and a storage area on Chichi Jima.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 43: 307 XXI Bomber Command B-29s, of
331 airborne, fire-raid Kobe, Japan in the heaviest attack to date, bombing
from 5,000 to 9,500 feet (1,524 to 2,896 m) during the predawn hours of
16/17 Mar; the attack lasts for 2 hours and 8 minutes; about 2.9 square miles
(7.5 square km), i.e., 20%, of the city's area is burned destroying about 500
industrial buildings and damaging 162; 65,951 homes are lost leaving 242,468
people homeless. Casualties are 2,669 dead or missing and 11,289 injured. The
B-29 crews see 314 enemy aircraft which make a total of 93 individual
attacks; the AAF claims 1-0-? Japanese aircraft; 3 B-29s are lost, none to
the fighters.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
A-20s and B-24s continue pounding Japanese installations at Baguio; P-51s
strike Patapat, hitting vehicles and supplies; fighters on patrol hit Caballo
Island in Manila Bay; the Batangas area is again pounded by fighter-bombers
and A-20s. B-24s hit Talisay and Carolina Airfields on Negros Island and bomb
targets pinpointed by guerrillas on Cebu Island. B-25s bomb San Roque
Airfield on Mindanao Island and attack Tarakan Island and Jesselton Airfields
in Borneo. On Formosa, B-24s also hit the town of Taihoku, airfields at
Heito, and the Okayama naval airbase. HQ 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy) and
the 65th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) move from Tacloban, Leyte Island to
Clark Field, Luzon with B-24s; the 419th Night Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter
Command, moves from Middelburg Island to Puerto Princesa, Palawan Island with
P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

16/1202Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:40:00 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: VJ vs. VE

On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Edward S. Miller wrote:

> Robert J. Granvin wrote:
>
>   > The question was raised why VE (Victory in Europe) vs. VJ (Victory over
>   > Japan)...
>   > The Pacific is, for the most part, different.  Japan is the clear
>   > driving force here, but there wasn't a real "coalition" of countries
>   > making up the Pacific front.
>
> Did Japan have Pacific allies?  I vaguely recall that the puppet regimes of
> Thailand and Manchukuo may have declared war on the US.  Also perhaps the
> exile nationalist "governments" of India and maybe Indonesia.  Does anyone
> know?

After a brief resistance to a Japanese invaision on December 7/8th, the
Thais requested an armistice.  It is not quite correct to say that they
surrendered.  In early 1942 the Thai government, under pressure from the
Japanese, declared war on the UK and US.  The declaration of war was
delivered in London.  However, the declaration of war on the U.S. was not
delivered by the then Ambassador, M.R. Seni Pramote.  I think he told the
Secretary of State of his situation and was, in turned, told to forget
about delivering it.

After WWII the British demanded reparations, in the form of rice to feed
Malaysia.  They might have also demanded the detachment of some of the
(majority Muslim) southern provinces of Thailand.  The U.S., which did
not consider itself to be at war with Thailand, came to Thailand's
defence and the British moderated their demands including the territorial
issue.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:35:36 -0600
From:    Lauri Hammond <LAHAMMOND@UALR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bouillard

Does anyone out there know anything about a Francis Bouillard?  He died around
a921 or 22?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:40:51 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

> In his book *Wahoo*, Morton's executive officer, Richard O'Kane, recounts an
> incident of Jan. 26, 1943, in which Morton ordered life boats carrying Japanes
> e survivors from a troop transport ship to be smashed with fire from a
> four-inch gun. O'Kane doesn't say anything about specifically targeting the
> troops, only that the life boats were destroyed and that machine gun fire was
> used to "scare the troops out of the boats." O'Kane's opinion is that Morton
> made the right choice because the Japanese troops, if they were pulled out of
> the water, would have immediately been thrown into the battle.

Are there other eyewitnesses of the event who saw it
differently? Where are their written accounts? Are the patrol reports
archived anywhere on the net?

---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:55:41 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

>I suppose a private reprimand is
> better than nothing, and it would explain why Morton didn't make any effort
> to repeat his attacks on survivors in subsequent patrols.

Did the Wahoo ever sink another transport? If not, then the fact that
the incident was not repeated does not seem very significant.


---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:14:15 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <awothers@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: QUES: Mountbatten pink

In message Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:55:45 -0500,
  Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>  writes:

> A modeler friend of mine recently asked me about a color scheme involving
> "Mountbatten pink." I couldn't find anything in my stuff, but my guess was
> that it might have been a color used in so-called dazzle camouflage paint
> applied to warships. Beats me whether that's actually true or not -- I
> based it on a) Mountbatten having been a destroyer officer for at least
> part of the war and b) the painting on the back of my copy of *Jane's
> Fighting Ships of World War II* shows a vessel painted in dazzle with
> patches on it that appear to be -- believe it or not -- pink.
>
> Does anybody know what "Mountbatten pink" would have been used for? What
> kind of pink was it -- salmon? Light pink? More like fuschia?
>
> Jodi Berls
> jberls@aol.com
>

Jodi:

Mountbatten Pink (also referred to as nipple pink) was used on some RN
destroyers in WW2.  As a camouflage it would be most effective at dusk.  I
don't know if it was used in any pattern schemes as I've only heard of it
being used as an overall colour.  I have no idea about the actual shade.

Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: awothers@sfu.ca)
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:37:08 -0500
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Strange American Desertion...

Wasnt there a notorious "Sgt. John D. Provoo" captured on Corregidor that
actually turned on his fellow prisoners and become a turncoat, making
propaganda broadcasts, camps visits etc. etc.

I think he was let off on a legal technicality.  I will check my records.
Does anyone have any additional info on this.  There were many Americans who
made broadcasts, but this individual actually acted agianst his fellow
prisoners and was an active collaborator.

Max

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:42:51 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Nimitz vs.(?)

Lou,
>Pity he didn't stand up for Joe Rochefort like that.  (Maybe
>  R. had offended/embarrassed even Nimitz?)
>
I expect Nimitz would have plugged the holes in the Pearl harbor Battleline
if he had been able to... Joe Rochefort had made too many enemies in high
places for anyone but God to save him, apparently. His good information
left a lot of senior leaders who didn't listen, out on a limb - those sorts
of egotists do not let that go unpunished. He was transffered to Washington
to be squashed, found incompetent and discarded - totally discredited, so
he counldn't hurt "important people"... a few of us know the truth, so
Rochefort is vindicated and a lot of Important WW II figures come across
"with their pants down" figuretivly speaking - Joe would probably enjoy
that

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:43:01 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: REF: Looking for Soviet tactical practices

Jim,
All I know about are the DA-PAM 20 series which are compilations of what
the Germans learned in fighting the Russians [and how the Russians
attacked/defended etc] published in the early 50's. Hard to come by, but
good reading.

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:10:51 -0500
From:    Sean Barnett <sbarnett@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Mountbatten Pink

                      Subject:                              Time:  2:04 PM
  OFFICE MEMO         Mountbatten Pink                      Date:  3/16/95

I have also read of the Japanese using pink as a camouflage color.  I believe
it was IJN Haguro that was described as a "pink-painted cruiser" when it was
sunk near the end of the war.  I don't know anything about the shade of pink
or whether the whole ship was painted pink or pink was merely used in a
pattern.
                                                FYI,
                                                Sean Barnett

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:26:58 -0600
From:    JEFF ROBERTS <JJR7904@TNTECH.EDU>
Subject: Churchill and Ireland

Recent discussion of the German "Green" invasion plan rekindled an old
concern which I'd like to share with the list.

Several years ago in graduate school one of our professors (one who I
respect greatly) told our class that during the war, at the depths of
the Battle of the Atlantic, Churchill actually made the government
of Ireland an offer to give them control of Northern Ireland at the end
of the war, provided that Ireland immediately opened her ports to British
shipping!  The Irish declined his offer and remained steadfastly neutral.

I've often wondered about this since that time, and have never run across
any source to confirm or deny it.  Have any of you ever heard the same
story, or run across it in any readings?  Or is this just so much malarkey?

Thanks for your input

Jeff Roberts
JJR7904@tntech.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:09:10 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Big guns (Japanese)

        Well, four is my lucky number, so...

        APPENDIX 4: Big Guns, Japanese Style

        In one of my earlier posts I made a passing reference to the use of
240-mm howitzers, the biggest mobile guns deployed overseas by the Japanese
during the war, in the reduction of the fortified island of Corregidor in
Manila Bay during April-May 1942.  There were ten of these weapons used in that
operation (and the earlier softening-up of the other island fortresses that
stretched like a deadly necklace south from Corregidor to the shore of Cavite
province).  These were siege pieces, antiquated in appearance but capable of
delivering a very destructive 400-lb shell to the target.  Their capacity for
plunging fire also came in handy in the topographical conditions surrounding
the Corregidor action.  The Japanese obtained larger artillery concentrations
in a few other instances, but the bombardment of Corregidor constituted their
best "Sunday punch" as far as heavy artillery was concerned.  In addition to
the ten 240-mm weapons, the Japanese also had 25 150-mm long-barrelled guns and
howitzers (the rest of the 116 pieces of artillery bombarding Corregidor were
105-mm long-barrel guns and howitzers or the ubiquitous 75-mm field guns,
although there were only 28 of the latter involved).  The 240-mm howitzers
proved gruesomely effective in many instances.  One of the first came on one of
the smaller fortified islands (after the fall of Manila, but before the final
breakthrough on Bataan peninsula to the north of the bay's entrance, these
southern forts were bombarded from positions on the Cavite headlands on the
south side of the bay).  A concrete tunnel wall, weakened and chipped by
previous hits from the heavy 240-mm shells, was penetrated by one of these
400-lb projectiles, which exploded inside the tunnel, where a large number of
US servicemen were lined up for a vaccination, with grisly results.  On
Corregidor itself a 240-mm shell caused heavy casualties when it landed right
at the entrance to Malinta tunnel, the island's HQ and nerve center, just after
dusk, when many of the personnel from the tunnel had gathered outside for a
smoke (there was no smoking permitted inside the tunnel, so it had become the
habit of the men to sneak out for a quick cigarette after sunset, when the
Japanese fire slackened considerably, as they preferred daylight bombardment
where fire could be constantly adjusted as necessary).  It was also a 240-mm
shell which detonated the magazine of one of Corregidor's two 12-inch mortar
batteries, setting off a blast which literally shook the entire island, and
which sent one of the huge mortars sailing hundreds of yards through the air to
land barrel-down on an adjacent golf course built for happier peacetime
days.  In one instance one of the huge 400-lb projectiles was actually (and,
one assumes, fortuitously) dropped straight down an air shaft, striking the
fuel tank of a generator which powered the equipment of an antiaircraft
battery, and horribly burning to death several of the men of that battery
(including their young commanding officer) who were sheltering in the tunnel
that housed the generator.
        The Japanese had all the advantages in this artillery duel.  The US
fortifications on Corregidor were impressive, with 10- and 12-inch naval guns
and a dozen of the squat 12-inch mortars, but they were all emplaced to stop a
seaborne invader from entering Manila bay, and most would not even bear on
Bataan to the north.  Furthermore, the hills in the south of Bataan were higher
than the highest points on Corregidor, so that the Japanese guns sheltered
behind the reverse slopes were safe not only from observation, but also from
the flat trajectories of the big naval guns.  That was why the various Japanese
howitzers played so important a role-- their more arching trajectory could lob
shells over the intervening hills.  Only the dozen big American mortars could
effectively return fire, but they were firing blind according to their best
guess regarding the Japanese artillery positions.  The Japanese, meanwhile, not
only had direct observation from high points on Bataan, but also constant air
observation from spotter planes circling overhead with relative impunity, as by
this time there were no longer US aircraft operating over Luzon, and
bombardment was progressively knocking out the antiaircraft batteries.  That
was why the Japanese preferred to do most of their shooting by daylight, when
they could make every shot count.  Despite the relative ineffectiveness of the
American return fire, an unnacceptably high proportion of the 25 150-mm pieces
were damaged during the operation.  Since little of this damage was due to
American artillery, one assumes most came from either worn-out barrels or
defective ammunition, another example of the logistical and industrial
deficiencies I keep harping on.  The unforeseen necessity for a prolonged phase
of offensive operations in the Phillipines was stretching the tender logistics
capabilities of the Japanese even at this early juncture. (Belote, "Corregidor,
The Saga of a Fortress")
        At any rate, the 240-mm howitzers were not the biggest guns in the
Japanese Army, not by a long shot.  The real big guns were the result of
another of those relatively rare examples of harmonious cooperation between the
Japanese Army and Navy.  After the treaty limiting the number and size of
battleships, the Japanese Navy in the early 1920's found itself with a surplus
of guns and turrets already built or commissioned for installation in new
battleships it would no longer be building.  So the Navy made the Army an offer
it could hardly refuse.  Basically, they told the Army, we'll provide the guns
and equipment for an elaborate coast defense system, and install it all for
you, if you'll agree to take over the responsibilty of manning and maintaining
the guns once they're in place.  The Navy provided for a total of 13 large
coast defense turrets, each mounting two guns-- specifically, three 410-mm
turrets, six 305-mm, two 250-mm, and two 203-mm.  The turrets themselves were
impressive works.  The largest ones, for the 410-mm and 305-mm guns, were
oblong structures thirty feet wide, forty feet deep, and nine feet high.  They
were made of armor plate a foot thick on all sides, and four inches thick on
the top (still enough to resist the majority of WW2 aircraft bombs).
Underground each turret was its own self-contained fortress, with a circular
pit containing the machinery to turn it and operate the electrical systems, a
forced-draft ventilation system to keep out fumes, and tunnels extending
outward to house the crew and the ammunition.  The smaller 250-mm and 203-mm
turrets, which were not quite as well armored, relied on extensive concealment.
Besides ingenious siting, these smaller turrets had their roofs covered with
six inches of concrete, and a foot of dirt on top of that.  The soil was then
planted with plants and weeds to match the surrounding vegetation, so that
after a year the structures blended in with their environment to an amazing
degree.  The gun barrels themselves could be depressed below ground level into
two parallel trenches, which were then covered with camouflage netting to
complete the picture.  The turrets were sited to take maximum advantage of
natural contours and reverse slopes-- the smaller turret at Sunosaki in Tokyo
bay employed this principal of natural concealment to such a degree that it
could only be brought to bear on ships which had already passed its position
and were now presenting their sterns.
        Most of the biggest guns were used to close-- yes, close-- the straits
seperating Japan from Korea.  There was a single (two-gun) 410-mm turret near
Pusan on the Korean shore.  There was another 410-mm and two 305-mm turrets
sited in an arc around the island of Tsushima roughly in mid-channel.  Finally,
the third 410-mm turret and one 305-mm emplacement were situated on the island
of Iki Shima close to the Japanese coast.  This was a state-of-the-art
defensive system, with fields of fire carefully calculated to interlock, and in
theory close the Tsushima straits to large enemy vessels.  Six other turrets
(two each of the 305-mm, 250-mm, and 203-mm) were used to create a deadly ring
around Tokyo bay.  This still left one 305-mm turret for use at Tsuguru,
covering the strait between the main island of Honshu and Hokkaido.
Unfortunately, almost all of the above was taken (virtually verbatim) from Ian
Hogg's "Fortress: A History of Military Defense," which goes into great detail
(including a cross-section drawing of one of the 305-mm turrets in Tokyo bay)
on the technical characteristics but makes no mention if they were used in
action.
        I should also say that on Okinawa the Japanese employed some big but
primitive 675-lb rockets (sometimes described as 320-mm spigot mortars).  These
were in essence terror weapons, launched from crude, v-shaped wooden frames
without any aiming or guidance systems, just sent flying toward the enemy lines
(where their effect was quite sensational when they did by chance hit
something).  On Iwo Jima the Japanese naval personnel also rigged up crude
rockets converted from 551-lb aircraft bombs, again without guidance and with a
range of only a little over a mile.  When they used up their supply of rockets,
the Navy men of this unit became footsoldiers.
        Finally, I want to thank Jim O'Brien for giving me a detailed answer to
my question on the use of radar by the Japanese Navy.  One fact he mentioned,
of which I was not aware but which fits in nicely with my general theme, was
that the Japanese Army first obtained radar through capturing British
ground-based sets in Singapore, and from there developed their own improved
models.  Since I think Jim sent his post straight to me and didn't put it up on
the list, I'll mention for the record that the first Japanese Navy shipboard
sets were installed on the battleships ISE, KONGO, and KIRISHIMA, and the
carrier SHOKAKU in August 1942, followed by the same equipment on the
battleship MUSASHI in September and the carrier ZUIKAKU in November.  The new
AKITSUKI-class destroyers were also fitted with this equipment before going
operational shortly thereafter.  In mid-1943 the Japanese Navy introduced a
radar detector for their ships as well.  The first Japanese Navy radar could
detect formations of aircraft at over 60 miles, single planes at up to 35
miles, and in a test picked up a battleship at 12 miles.  Thanks, Jim.
        Want to leave with a final image I found expressive, and relating to
the Manchurian campaign, namely a photo I once saw of Japanese officers lined
up to meekly deposit their swords in a big pile before their Russian captors.
Talk about a picture worth a thousand words.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:15:55 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Argentina Returns Ex-Nazi

>From the DoD Newswire 15 March 1995

:REPORT: EX-NAZI TO BE DEPORTED

   BUENOS AIRES, Argentina -- Argentina has promised to
extradite a former Nazi SS captain to Italy this month to stand trial
in the massacre of 335 Italian civilians, a U.S.-based Jewish group
said Tuesday.
   Erich Priebke, 82, has been under house arrest for nine months in
Bariloche, 1,100 miles southwest of Buenos Aires, since admitting to
a role in the 1944 massacre in the Ardeatine Caves outside Rome.
   Tommy Baer, the international president of B'nai B'rith, said
President Carlos Menem told him in a meeting Monday that everything
possible was being done to speed up the case.
   "Argentina has been getting the rap for the delay in Priebke's
extradition," Baer said Tuesday.
   "We told Menem that pressure from the United States and Italy is
mounting," said Baer, who was in Argentina on a two-day visit. "He
replied Priebke would be in Italy this month."
   A spokesman for Menem said he could not confirm or deny Baer's
account, but said Priebke was very likely to be extradited this
month.
   The massacre was in reprisal for the killing of 32 German soldiers
in Nazi-occupied Italy. Priebke has said he was following Adolf
Hitler's orders that 10 Italian civilians be executed for every
German soldier killed.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:11:27 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Iwo Jima II

>From the DoD Newswire 15 March 1995

:VETERANS RETURN TO IWO JIMA

   IWO JIMA, Japan -- Harvey Garner looked down and fell silent
for a moment as his feet sank into the black sand of Invasion Beach.
"This feels familiar,' he said, tears welling in his eyes. "This
feels very familiar."
   From its eerie caverns to the crumbling gray pillboxes that dot
the landscape, Iwo Jima is an island haunted by its bloody past.
   But 50 years after Americans came here to find their own little
hell on earth, Garner and several hundred other veterans of the
battle to win this secluded crag put some of those ghosts to rest
Tuesday.
   "I don't feel bad about coming back here," said Garner, of Tampa,
Fla., as he walked down the beach. Fifty years ago, he ran for his
life up the same stretch of sand, with Japanese shooting at him from
both sides.
   "I thank God I made it. Many didn't," he said.
   The veteran of the 5th Marine Division was among more than 800
American vets and their families who came back to Iwo Jima for a 50th
anniversary memorial.
   U.S. troops stormed ashore on Feb. 19. Tuesday's ceremony, the
only official one planned by the military, commemorated the island's
capture after weeks of bitter fighting.
   A handful of Japanese survivors along with 100 or so relatives of
soldiers who fought here, including the son and widow of the Japanese
commander on Iwo Jima, Tadamichi Kuribayashi, also attended the
ceremony.
   The Japanese government, which has distanced itself from 50th
anniversary ceremonies, sent no Cabinet-level officials, even though
the Americans were represented by Navy Secretary John Dalton and
Marine Commandant Gen. Carl E. Mundy, Jr.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:02:00 CST
From:    Roger Dunaway <ROGERIU@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Ref: Defense of Truman

Tim,
That was really a good letter you wrote and I think you got your facts
straight.  I would only say that you should be sure to spellcheck your
letter first (of course you will!) and be sure none of the sentences
are fragmentary.
I think your key paragraph is the one mentioning the deadlock in the
Japanese cabinet that had to be broken by the emperor himself.  Emphasize
that without the emperor's intervention they would have gone on fighting;
after all, the Bushido Codde stated that a warrior never surrendered and
would fight to the death.  I might mention that, along with the fact that
even after Japan announced the decision to surrender several American POW's
in Japanese captivity were beheaded...not the sign of a peace-loving people!
Truman's decision was probably the best decision that could be made under the
circumstances and it probably did prevent the destruction of an entire generati
on.  One should also keep in mind that Japan started the war and committed
such atrocities as the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, and the
murder of civilians in Manilla during the U.S invasion of  the Philippines.
Add to this the fact that the "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere" was an
excuse for Japan to plunder and oppress the nations under its occupation, and o
ne can see the mentality of the government that American decision makers (i.e.
Truman) confronted in 1945.  Anti-nuke activists tend to see things from
a 1990's perspective, forgetting what it was like at that time an totally
ignoring the context in which events occurred.
   So, Bretter, and if you want to use any of                             any
of the info I have supplied, please feel free.  Stay in touch, and keep 'em
in line there at the soon to be Truman State University!
Cheers,
Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 15:56:52 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: MEDIA:RETURN TO IWO JI

I might mention that during the Iwo Jima commemoration, the Secretary of the
Navy announced that LtGen Charles Krulak was to become the new Commandant of
the Marine Corps, replacing Gen Carl Mundy on 1 July. Chuck Krulak is the son
of the famed LtGen Victor H. "Brute" Krulak, who, in my opinion, is one of the
smartest men ever to wear Marine Corps green. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:56:40 -0600
From:    "H-War Moderator Mark P. Parillo" <war@KSU.KSU.EDU>
Subject: a new military history list

                                          ANNOUNCING H-WAR
                                        H-Net List for Military History

H-War is a moderated electronic discussion group and bulletin board for
scholars, librarians, and teachers in the field of military history and is
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military history, but especially those that may provide opportunities for
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The primary purpose of H-War is to provide a forum for military historians
and other scholars to communicate openly.  In this light, H-War will focus
particularly on research and teaching interests; new scholarship in the
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and enhance professionalism; and the sharing of knowledge and experience
about the teaching of military history, including posting and discussion of
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from scholarly and professional societies or other organizations about their
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dissertations and research papers. H-War is also an appropriate forum for
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H-War is edited by Prof. Mark Parillo of Kansas State University and Dr. Henry
Lowood of the Stanford University Libraries.  They can be reached via
electronic
mail at war@ksu.ksu.edu and Henry.Lowood@forsythe.stanford.edu, respectively.
The editors consult with an editorial board of international scholars in the
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Subscription to H-War is free and open to professional researchers and
instructors in military history or allied fields and to other participants
concerned
with serious scholarship in the field.    When you send in a subscription
request,
the editors will send you a brief questionnaire; it must be completed and
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to confirm your subscription.  The information requested in this form tells us
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as a directory of H-War members.

To subscribe: send an empty e-mail message to WAR@KSU.KSU.EDU, with the
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a brief questionnaire for the list directory.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:09:41 +1000
From:    "Wilber Williams, Prentice Centre" <CCWILBER@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Glacier Girl Pictures

Steve,

        How much space are we talking about for the pictures? And do you
have a Web page that goes with them? I could volunteer the services of one
of my machines.

Wilber

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                           w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au       |
|Prentice Centre                           Telephone : +61 7 365 4232    |
|The University of Queensland              Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477    |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA              Pager : +61 7 831 6199 #20702 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:33:29 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Japan's role in WWII

        Today's Washington Post (March 16, 1995) has an article entitled,
Nagasaki Mayor Likens A-Bomb, Holocaust; Nagasaki and Hiroshima Mayors
Condemn U.S.".  The Post also a very interesting piece about
Australian historian Gavan Daws' new book called "Prisoners of the
Japanese; POWs of WWII in the Pacific".

Patrick Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 15:44:54 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan's role in WWII

>         Today's Washington Post (March 16, 1995) has an article entitled,
> Nagasaki Mayor Likens A-Bomb, Holocaust; Nagasaki and Hiroshima Mayors
> Condemn U.S.".  The Post also a very interesting piece about
> Australian historian Gavan Daws' new book called "Prisoners of the
> Japanese; POWs of WWII in the Pacific".

Not entirely related, but I wonder if someone has been maintaining an
index of these articles that have been appearing in major publications
regarding the Enola Gay, the A-Bomb, VJ Day, etc... Doesn't matter what
viewpoint is being expressed.

On August 6th, we have the only flying B-29 on our ramp, which should make
for an interesting day (if not weekend).  Who knows... might see us on
national news.  :-)

However, we also have a large area dedicated for displays about the home
front.  It's been speculated that it might be interesting to hit the
library and photocopy the articles dealing with the whole A-bomb issue.
Would certainly make for a unique display.  (And I don't want to search
through mounds of newspapers for word-bites... I'm darn lazy... :-)

BTW:  Just for trivia's sake, St. Paul, MN (where the air display is held)
is a "sister city" of Nagasaki, Japan.  This is gonna be one different
weekend to be sure...

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 18:06:52 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSH MORTON

I must state at the beginning that, as a former Marine and Marine Corps
historian, I am not all that enthralled with Nimitz. He bent over backwards
with his head up his you know what in the "interest" of preventing interservice
animosities in the POA. As a result, LtGen "Nelly" Richardson, USARPAC, could
come in and accuse the Marine Corps and Holland M. Smith of being nothing but a
bunch of beach runners and Marine officers incapable of commanding anything
more senior than a battalion, and Nimitz never said a word of protest to
support Smith. In the Smith vs Smith controversey on Saipan, when Robert
Sherrod wrote the story, which was passed by CinCPac censors and appeared in
Time, Nimitz was all for having Sherrod kicked out of the theater, and despite
Richardson's despicable behavior at Saipan--it is all in the record and I have
written a paper on it if anyone is interested--Nimitz still failed to support
his Marines, those who gave him the victories in the Central Pacific leading to
V-J Day. So, I cannot say that Chester Nimitz is one of my heroes. Ernie King
is, because he was what he appeared to be, a tough naval warrior who, it was
rumoured, shaved with a blow torch. MacArthur is something else, and i can only
fight on one front at a time. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 17:04:37 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: POW treatment

Like everyone else on this list, I've greatly enjoyed Mike Yaklich's
posts on WWII Japan. I look forward to more! Back toward the beginning
of the series, Mike had some comments relating to Japanese treatment of
Allied POW's-- which as you know was uniformly awful.
Something I've always been curious about is how the Japanese treated
their prisoners in earlier wars.  I have just finished reading Charles
Burdick's _German Prisoners of War in Japan,1914-1920_(University Press
of America,1982).  The Japanese captured nearly 5,000 Germans at Tsingtao
in 1914, and held them for over five years.
What struck me was how much better treated these men were than the Americans
captured in the Philippines, or the British Empire troops taken at Singapore.
Captivity for the Germans was no paradise; they considered their food and
lodging rather poor. Some of the camp commandants were harsh, and physical
punishment was sometimes inflicted even on German officers.
But Burdick, who based his account on German sources,mentions nothing like
the sadistic cruelty and total neglect suffered by World War II captives
of the Japanese.  I ran across no mentions of prisoner deaths, and over
time living conditions improved.  After 1919 the Germans were returned
home.
If Allied prisoners had been treated as well not much more than two decades
later,there would have been little reason to complain about Japanese
behavior.  Why was Japanese behavior so much worse in the second Great
War?  If Mike or anyone else has any explanation, I'd like to see it.
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:09:01 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-MAR-1945

On 17-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 1st Division begins its
offensive on the east bank of the Rhine towards the river Sieg. The Remagen
bridge suddenly collapses, after thousands of tanks and trucks have crossed
it. The flow of supplies is ensured though by two additional bridges which
have been constructed downstream. In the 3rd Army sector, the 87th Division
crosses the Moselle near Guels and begins an offensive towards Koblenz. The
XII Corps reaches Boppard and St Goar. The 94th Division takes Birkenfeld.
The 80th Division establishes a bridgehead over the Prims in the Krettnich
area. Elements of the 65th Division cross the Sarr near Menningen while the
division prepares to break out of the Saarlautern bridgehead. In the 7th
Army sector the VI, XV and XXI Corps continue Operation Undertone with the
goal of breaching the Siegfied Line.

Eastern Front - In Hungary, the 3rd Ukraine Front makes progress between
Lake Velencei and Lake Balaton.

Philippines - In the XI Corps area, the 6th Division attacks eastward
against the Shimbu line. Elements of the 43rd Division continue futile
efforts to reduce Sugar Loaf. In the 8th Army sector, the Japanese are
firmly entrenched at Masilay and Pasananca. Elements of the 41st Division
reach Pasananca.

Iwo Jima - The 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions continue mopping up. The 5th
Marine Division has confined the Japanese to a small pcoket on the north
end of the isalnd. Lt. Gen. Kuribayashi is in this pocket which is 700
yeards long and 200-500 yards wide.

Burma - Fierce fighting continues in Mandalay. The Japanese continue to
hold Fort Dufferin.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 19:48:48 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: HUMOR - Nimitz & MacArthur

The recent discussion of Nimitz reminds me of a joke told me by a WWII
naval officer who took my WWII class the first time I taught it.  (He was
also the former dean of faculty; I'm happy he liked the course!)

It seems that Nimitz and MacArthur were debarking from a landing craft
in the Philippines, but the vessel dropped its ramp too early and they
both wound up stepping into the drink.  After floundering a bit in the
surf, they managed to struggle to shore.

After he had regained his breath, Nimitz told MacArthur, "General, I want
you to promise me that you won't mention a word of this to anyone.  My
sailors would never forgive me if they found out I can't swim!"

"Don't worry, Admiral.  I know just how you feel.  My troops would never
let me forget it if they found out I can't walk on water," responded
MacArthur.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 18:26:42 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Ireland

        I am not sure, but I think I read about this in Jerrold Packard's
"Neither Friend Nor Foe; The European Nuetrals During World War II".
The book is maybe two or three years old.

Patrick Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu


On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:

> Recent discussion of the German "Green" invasion plan rekindled an old
> concern which I'd like to share with the list.
>
> Several years ago in graduate school one of our professors (one who I
> respect greatly) told our class that during the war, at the depths of
> the Battle of the Atlantic, Churchill actually made the government
> of Ireland an offer to give them control of Northern Ireland at the end
> of the war, provided that Ireland immediately opened her ports to British
> shipping!  The Irish declined his offer and remained steadfastly neutral.
>
> I've often wondered about this since that time, and have never run across
> any source to confirm or deny it.  Have any of you ever heard the same
> story, or run across it in any readings?  Or is this just so much malarkey?
>
> Thanks for your input
>
> Jeff Roberts
> JJR7904@tntech.edu
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Mar 1995 to 16 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 16 Mar 1995 to 17 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 24 messages totalling 711 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Media: SecNav names ship
  2. Dudley Morton (3)
  3. Mush Morton
  4. Mountbatten Pink
  5. Ernest King (2)
  6. INF: USN Chronology 03-17-95
  7. HIST: Unit 731/Japan
  8. ADMIN: Happy Anniversary! (4)
  9. BOOK: George Browder's
 10. Doenitz and agg war
 11. POW treatment
 12. MEDIA:Belgian Sentenced
 13. MEDIA:Deserters Unchanged
 14. Subscribe
 15. Soviet operations against Japanese in Manchuria
 16. Saipan controversy
 17. INF: 50 Years Ago - 18-MAR-1945
 18. Japanese Planes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:42:53 EST
From:    S214000 <S214@NMU.EDU>
Subject: Media: SecNav names ship

15 March 1995 DoD news release:
Secretary of the Navy John Dalton announced today his decision to name a
maritime prepositioning ship in honor of First Lieutenant Harry Linn
Martin, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, posthumously awarded the Medal of
Honor for his actions during the battle of Iwo Jima on March 16,1945.
Secretary Dalton's announcement was made as part of today's activities
on the island of Iwo Jima, commemorating the 50th anniversary of that
epic World War II battle.
First Lieutenant Martin was born in Bucyrus, Ohio, on January 4, 1911,
and was a graduate of Michigan State University. He was commissioned a
second Lieutenant in the U.S. Marine Corps in August of 1943. Lt. Martin
was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for gallantry at the cost of
his life. Just before dawn on the morning of March 16,1945, the day the
Iwo campaign officially closed, the Japanese launched a concentrated
attack and penetrated Marine lines in the area where Lt. Martin's
platoon was encamped. He immediately organized a firing line among the
men in the foxholes closest to his own, and temporarily stopped the
headlong rush of the enemy. Several of his men were lying wounded in
positions overrun by the enemy and the lieutenant was determined to
rescue them. In the action which followed, he was severely wounded twice
but continued to resist the enemy until he fell mortally wounded by a
grenade. He died ten days later.

Mike Wilson
Northern Michigan University
Marquette, Michigan

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 01:19:01 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

Rod Rupert wrote:

> Are there other eyewitnesses of the event who saw it
differently? Where are their written accounts? Are the patrol reports
archived anywhere on the net?

Hoyt writes that other crew members were greatly disturbed by it, but I have
not read any other firsthand accounts myself. There are a fair number of books
 about the *Wahoo*, however. O'Kane, in his own book, cites *Wake of the
Wahoo* by Forest Sterling, who would have been there at the time, so you
might look for that. (My main field of interest is Atlantic submarine warfare,
 so I have not searched for additional material on the *Wahoo* with any great
vigor, though it's certainly worth studying, in my opinion. Maybe someday
I'll have time for that).

As for the patrol reports, I don't know of any sites on the net where they
can be had, though there may well be one or more. If you should find an FTP
site that has them, please let me know. I'd be very interested in getting a
look at them myself.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 01:19:04 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mush Morton

Rod Rupert wrote:

> Did the Wahoo ever sink another transport? If not, then the fact that
the incident was not repeated does not seem very significant.

Yes, it did, on its seventh patrol -- the patrol on which it was lost with
all hands. (Japanese accounts of the loss of the ship are the source for this
-- obviously there was no firsthand patrol report.) However, this sinking
took place in Japan's Inland Sea. Not a place where you would want to attract
attention to yourself by surfacing and firing a lot of guns.

As to the significance (or non-significance) of there being no more
incidents, that's a matter of how you define significant. It could as well be
said that Japanese merchant marine sailors, if pulled out of the water, could
go back to work as easily as troops, and that that posed a threat to American
forces, too. If merchant marine sailors are legitimate targets while sailing
in a freighter, and troops are legitimate targets while in life boats, then
are the sailors any less legitimate targets in life boats? Morton clearly did
have the opportunity to fire on survivors who were merchant marine sailors
after the transport incident, and chose not to do so. Is that significant? I
think it is.

Personally, I think the only right decision is to stop shooting once the
other guy can't shoot back, and what pips are on his uniform are irrelevant.
However, I recognize the dilemma that submarine warfare introduced into this
equation -- in a land battle, it's possible to take prisoners, even numbering
into the thousands or more. A submarine simply cannot do that without
endangering itself beyond acceptable levels. And once again, we're back to the
 *Laconia* incident, which started this whole discussion -- a case where a
U-boat skipper tried to take on boat-loads of survivors and got bombed for
his trouble.

It's a real moral dilemma, sure enough.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 01:19:09 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mountbatten Pink

Sean Barnett wrote:

> I have also read of the Japanese using pink as a camouflage color.  I
believe it was IJN Haguro that was described as a "pink-painted cruiser" when
it was sunk near the end of the war.

Fascinating. I'm glad to know this -- thanks. It strikes me as one of those
incredibly *odd* little details that make the whole study of the war so
intriguing.

> I don't know anything about the shade of pink or whether the whole ship was
painted pink or pink was merely used in a pattern.

Oh, dear. There's something about the mental image of an entire cruiser
painted pink that just...makes my brain *hurt*. :-)

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 01:19:12 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Ernest King

Ben Frank wrote:

> So, I cannot say that Chester Nimitz is one of my heroes. Ernie King is,
because he was what he appeared to be, a tough naval warrior who, it was
rumoured, shaved with a blow torch.

We can agree to disagree about Nimitz. But I suspect there are merchant
mariners out there who would have *enjoyed* shaving Ernest King with a blow
torch, for his appalling lack of preparedness in the Atlantic in early 1942.
If you say he distinguished himself elsewhere, I believe you, but his failure
to take the U-boat threat off the U.S. coast seriously resulted in a naval
disaster almost without rival in our history. This is the guy who failed to
order coastal blackouts or coastwise convoys, thus allowing the sinking of
more than 300,000 tons of shipping, with the loss of more 1,500 lives, in the
first three months of 1942 alone. And while Pearl Harbor might have been a
surprise attack, there should have been nothing surprising about an Axis
submarine offensive in the Atlantic, once the declarations of war had been
made. This was simply inexcusable, and I lay much of the blame right at
King's feet.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 00:36:46 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ernest King

And if King was such an *efficient* hardass, why couldn't he
  ramrod through improvements in our (defective) torpedoes?
  Nimitz had to try debugging them in *Hawaii*, because the
  Navy Dept. was so unresponsive/impossible.  This had to be
  a scandal on a par with the Eastern Seaboard massacre.  Can
  you imagine what it would have been like if the Japanese had
  used their cruising submarines in an anti-commerce role as
  they should have?

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-17-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/17 Sat.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             Submarine SPOT (SS-413),  by naval gunfire,
              off Formosa,
              23 d. 00'N., 122 d. 00'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:05:20 -0500
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: HIST: Unit 731/Japan

F Y I: Today's NY TIMES has a front-page, below-the-fold story. Included
are quotes from some of men who performed human vivisections without benefit
of anesthetic.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:20:17 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

>From:         Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Dudley Morton
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>
>Rod Rupert wrote:
>
>> Are there other eyewitnesses of the event who saw it
>differently? Where are their written accounts? Are the patrol reports
>archived anywhere on the net?
>
>Hoyt writes that other crew members were greatly disturbed by it, but I have
>not read any other firsthand accounts myself. There are a fair number of books
> about the *Wahoo*, however. O'Kane, in his own book, cites *Wake of the
>Wahoo* by Forest Sterling, who would have been there at the time, so you
>might look for that. (My main field of interest is Atlantic submarine warfare,
> so I have not searched for additional material on the *Wahoo* with any great
>vigor, though it's certainly worth studying, in my opinion. Maybe someday
>I'll have time for that).
>

I've read _Wake of the Wahoo_, by Forest Sterling who was the Yoeman (I
think) and as I recall, he never discusses the incident.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:12:56 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Happy Anniversary!

        I just wanted to send a quick message to let everyone know that
today is my first anniversary as list owner!  I wanted to take this time
to thank everyone for their many contributions that they have made to this
list.  I won't list names only because I am certain to leave out some
people due to my faulty memory and I don't want to hurt any feelings.
Let me just say, though, that without their input, this would be one
hurtin' list!  I would also like to thank everyone for their professional
attitudes in general and their calm in particular during our "MAKE MONEY
FAST" episode, the Computer Liquidation Sale, and the more recent
Santa@north.pole.org fiasco!  I would also like to thank everyone for
their patience while waiting for me to resolve various problems or
providing assistance (including video copying! I haven't forgotten!).
Finally, I would like to offer my heartfelt thanks to the vets on this
list who are so willing to share their experiences with us.  (Hey, I
must sound like I've just won an Oscar for Best List Owner!  OK, I'll
thank my mom and dad too! :-)

        Running this list has been a unique and fun opportunity for me and
I have no regrets about accepting the responsibilities!  If there are any
areas upon which any of you would like to see improved, please drop me a
note.

        On the subject of problems, I will mention that the mail software
at ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu has recently been upgraded which had the undesireable
effect of filling my mailbox with megabytes of bounced mail messages.
Hopefully, it didn't impact the membership (beyond seeing the word, QUIT,
appended to messages).  In any case, most of the problems have now been
resolved.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend the rest of the war
in a prison camp.  Besides which, I'm a first generation Italian.
They would shoot me as a traitor.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:25:53 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: BOOK: George Browder's

Hello all,
   Has anyone ever read George Browders "Foundation of the Nazi Police
State"?  I am half way through it but it seems to be the most comprehensive
book on the subject.  One strong point of it is that it doesn't go too
much into biographical sketches or into a general history of the Nazi
movement which books tend to do.  If you've read this book, e-mail me
please because I'd like to discuss it.  I'm having a little trouble with
it as Browder tends to throw out hundreds of names and places without
too much structure, elaboration, or analysis.  Excellent research that
could have been presented a little better.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:30:06 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Doenitz and agg war

Terry,
   You mentioned in one of your posts Doenitz's aggressive use of submarines
in the Battle of the Atlantic.  This did indeed get him in some hot water.
He was held responsible for the sinking of unarmed merchants without warning
or chance for the crew to abandon ship.  However, Nimitz and many other
American naval men came to his defence, saying that the US had pursued a
similar policy in the Pacific.


William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:54:58 -0500
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Happy Anniversary!

On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Barone wrote:

>         I just wanted to send a quick message to let everyone know that
> today is my first anniversary as list owner!  I wanted to take this time
> to thank everyone for their many contributions that they have made to this
> list.  I won't list names only because I am certain to leave out some

Joe - You've done a super job and I (as well as everyone else I'm sure)
really appreciate your hard work keeping this list going. Even though I'm a
moderator for the WW II newsgroup, I use the mailing list as my primary place
for reading/learning about World War II. Thanks for your hard work.

John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:24:07 -0800
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Happy Anniversary!

CONGRATS Joe.  Although I'm a "newbie", I'm looking forward to some
great news from your *list*.

Larry Godek
W0OGH@IX.NETCOM.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:17:41 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: POW treatment

On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Jim Curry wrote:

> If Allied prisoners had been treated as well not much more than two decades
> later,there would have been little reason to complain about Japanese
> behavior.  Why was Japanese behavior so much worse in the second Great
> War?  If Mike or anyone else has any explanation, I'd like to see it.
> Jim Curry
> kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us
>
        The first time the Western world was able to see how far ranging
the changes in Japan had been with regards to Western influence was the
First Sino-Japanese War in 1894-95.  With modern armies, weapons and
tactics they trounced the Chinese despite their numbers, superior navy at
that time, and the fact the Japanese had to land their troops in Korea
and China.  The Japanese treated their prisoners very well much to
everyones surprise.  There may have been thoughts that only westerners
would be treated properly yet this shows the Japanese were not yet
butchering people like they would come to do later on. (There was one
massacre of Chinese civilians when the Japanese found all of their own
civilians murdered in on of the concessions).
        Most of the reasoning I would propose for their behaviour is that
in this war, the succeeding one against Russia, and WWI, Japan was still
striving to become and to be recognized as a world power.  Everyone took
notice of Japan when she defeated Russia, and in WWI she was willing to
ally with whichever side would allow her to do as she pleased in the
Pacific.  France and Britain recognized they could not have a presence
there during the war and accepted Japan's claims to all German
possessions she took.  At this point Japan has just been accepted into
the fold with the western powers.  They believe they are equals and then
they go through all of the politics leading up to WWII which I am sure
you are familiar with.  Most importantly she now sees herself as an
equal, and then later on superior to the west.  The Japanese feel they
are then forced to lose face with the oil embargo and the constant
complaints about their conduct.  They are no longer striving to apply
western methods and goals to their society, they have assimilated what
they wanted and are now free to act as they see fit.  This leads to the
atrocities one would expect at this time amongst Asian combatants and as
the Western nations are also involved they suffer the same fate.
        The treatment of prisoners in a humane manner was part and parcel
of a complete reworking of Japanese society on a massive scale and an
incredible pace.  During the earlier conflicts they were simply emulating
western ways of doing things as they learned to adapt them to their
society.  By the time WWII roles around this is in the past and the
Japanese are again applying their own cultural mores (and those of the
militarists in power).
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 16:04:16 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Belgian Sentenced

>From the DoD Newswire 17 March 1995

:BELGIAN HOLOCAUST-DENIER FINED

   THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- A Belgian who sent a book denying
the holocaust to Dutch schools was fined and given a four-month
suspended jail term here Thursday.
   The decision was hailed by anti-racism groups as a victory for
existing Dutch laws against discrimination.
   Siegfried Verbeke, 53, was found guilty of three counts of
distributing racially insulting material and another of making
racially insulting comments in public.
   Last year, he sent the book "The Rudolf Expertise," which denies
that Nazis used gas chambers to murder Jews, to about 250 schools and
a number of public libraries last year, a court spokesman said.
   The book was written by a German scientist called Germar Rudolf.
   Dutch law prohibits any action aimed at inciting racial
discrimination.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 16:07:43 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Deserters Unchanged

>From the DoD Newswire 17 March 1995

:BONN REJECTS MOVE TO REHABILITATE WW2 DESERTERS

     BONN, March 16 - The federal government on Thursday
rejected an opposition motion to rehabilitate Germans who deserted
from Adolf Hitler's army or who were executed or jailed for
undermining the Nazi war effort.
     Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Christian Democrats (CDU) and their Free
Democrat (FDP) allies said a wholesale pardon for anti-militarists
convicted during World War Two would be unfair to millions who fought
loyally for their fatherland.
     "We have to be careful not to make blanket judgments about guilt
and innocence in military courts and therefore in the former
Wehrmacht," CDU deputy Rupert Scholz told parliament.
     The opposition Social Democrats (SPD) and Greens introduced
separate motions in parliament calling for the rehabilitation 50 years
after the Third Reich collapsed on May 8, 1945.
     "There are only a few hundred left who could apply for
compensation," Greens deputy Volker Beck said in the debate.
     "Find a place in your heart for them at last," he urged the
government deputies.  "Let us come to an agreement 50 years after the
war's end that restores the dignity of the victims."
     The motions, the third failed bid for rehabilitation in as many
years, were referred to committees after the debate.
     About 20,000 of the 30,000 Germans sentenced for desertion or
undermining the war effort were executed during the war. Most of the
others died in concentration camps.
     Speakers for the motions said the United States executed only one
deserter during the war and Britain none.
     Survivors have a criminal record and have been denied special
compensation or pensions as victims of Nazism.
     In an emotional speech, reform communist deputy Gerhard Zwerenz
told how he deserted from Hitler's Wehrmacht after seeing it crush the
Warsaw Uprising of August 1944.
     "I would have never thought that, 50 years and six months later,
I would have to justify this desertion in parliament," Zwerenz said as
he accused West Germany of rehabilitating the Nazi judges who meted
out the death sentences to deserters.
     Scholz said Bonn condemned Third Reich injustices and wanted to
compensate those who suffered under the Nazis.
     But he warned against equating all deserters with resistance
fighters now honoured for their opposition to Hitler.
     "One aspect to consider is whether other people's lives were
endangered by a desertion," he argued.
     The issue is a tough one for the centre-right government, whose
deputies argued both that Hitler's war was criminal but that fleeing
from the swastika banner was not.
     It is also difficult to justify treating deserters and war
critics as traitors while officially honouring the officers who staged
the abortive July 1944 coup against Hitler.
     West Germany's peace movement launched the campaign to
rehabilitate Wehrmacht deserters in the early 1980s and more than 60
cities have erected memorials to them since then.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:59:06 -0800
From:    BLICKENS@ULVACS.BITNET
Subject: Subscribe

I would like to dsubscribe to the World War II discussion group.  Please send me
    any information that I may need.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:51:22 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Soviet operations against Japanese in Manchuria

while Mike takes in a well-deserved deep breath between postings, I'll
just toss this in for the heck of it--

BLOOD ON THE SHORES: SOVIET SEALS IN WORLD WAR II by Viktor Leonov has
just gotten into paperback (Ivy Books, 1994).  This neat little title has
a couple chapters on operations of Soviet naval scouts (morskiye
razvedchiki) against Japanese-held Korean ports in August 1945.  What's
really great is that it's in PAPERBACK, for those of us whose book
budgets are tied up with such costly titles as ROMANIAN CASSANDRA or
SWORD OF THE ARCHANGEL :-) [hey, these symbols are cool!! :-)) ]

BTW, watch for future installments of "Micro Nations in World War II"--
there will be one for Mongolia (eventually...).


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:25:38 EST
From:    Charles Mattocks <chipm@C.ABAC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Saipan controversy

Hi Ben!

I remember reading about this but all the details are foggy, could reenlighten
this Marine!

Chip Mattocks

chipm@c.abac.peachnet.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 19:14:36 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 18-MAR-1945

On 18-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the III Corps continues its
offensive reaching Windhaven. In the 3rd Army sector, the 87th Division
continues with the battle for Koblenz. The 5th Division reaches the area
between Gemunden, Mengerschied and Sargenroth. The 89th Division reinforces
its positions east of the Moselle. The 76th Division establishes a
bridgehead over the Moselle, southeast of Wittlich. In the 7th Army sector,
the VI, XXI and XV Corps succeed in crossing the German frontier.

Eastern Front - The 1st White Russian Front captures the town and port of
Kolberg in Pomerania, the last German pocket on the Baltic coast between
the Polish corridor and Stettin Bay.

Philippines - The 25th Division at last overruns the Japanese positions
north of Putlan that have been delaying it for some days. The 6th Division
recovers ground last previously in a counterattack. In the 8th Army sector,
the 40th Division lands on southern Panay. The landing is unopposed and the
assault forces move rapidly east and northeast toward Iloilo.

Iwo Jima - The 5th Marine Division is methodically reducing the final
pocket of resistance on Iwo Jima.

Japan - In preparation for Operation Iceberg (the invasion of the Ryukyus),
carrier planes of TF 58 attack the Japanese homeland to neutralize the
airfields on Kyushu. The strikes are highly effective, resulting in heavy
damage to airfields and installations and destruction of many aircraft on
the ground and in the air.

The Homefront
-------------
New York Curfew Relaxed - Mayor Fiorello La Guardia has announced the
extension of New York's curfew hour from midnight to 1 a.m.

Meat "Famine" Near - A survey of packing companies shows that many meats
are 100% in short supply for the country as a whole. Black markets, bad
cattle-breeding regulations and low wholesale ceiling prices are blamed.

Pope Condemns German Race Doctrine - In his Passion Sunday address today
Pope Pius II repudiated the "advocates of violence" and the "idolatry of
absolute nationalism, the pride of race and blood and the desire for
hegemony in the possession of wordly goods."

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 19:49:00 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Happy Anniversary!

We're with ya Joe.

-Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 23:47:06 GT-003
From:    Marco Flavio Mattana <MATTANA@RLA01.PUCPR.BR>
Subject: Japanese Planes

Hello people,

    I'm a new user of Internet and this is my first week in WWII-L!

    Let's go to the problem:

    I'm seeking some data about the Japaneses aircrafts:

    * AICHI M6A K - Nanzan ( a fighter interceptor ??? ), and
    * AICHI M6A1 - Seiran ( Codename PAUL ??? )

used by Imperial Japanese Navy in 1942 or 1944, I not sure. If you
have any data about these planes (or other Japanese planes), please
e-mail me.

    Thanks.

Marco Flavio Mattana
Department of Industrial Design
PUC - Pr / Brazil

MATTANA@RLA01.PUCPR.BR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 22:56:53 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

John Riegsecker wrote:

> I've read _Wake of the Wahoo_, by Forest Sterling who was the Yoeman (I
think) and as I recall, he never discusses the incident.

That's disappointing. Do you know of any other first-person accounts?

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Mar 1995 to 17 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 7 messages totalling 168 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. POW treatment
  2. Churchill and Ireland (2)
  3. Dudley Morton
  4. TAC: Enterprise Green
  5. Accuracy and "Victory at Sea" (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)
  6. Strange American Desertion...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 00:59:44 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POW treatment

On Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:17:41 -0600 Kelvin Brent Luther said:
>
> This leads to the
>atrocities one would expect at this time amongst Asian combatants and as
>the Western nations are also involved they suffer the same fate.
>        The treatment of prisoners in a humane manner was part and parcel
>of a complete reworking of Japanese society on a massive scale and an
>incredible pace.  During the earlier conflicts they were simply emulating
>western ways of doing things as they learned to adapt them to their
>society.  By the time WWII roles around this is in the past and the
>Japanese are again applying their own cultural mores (and those of the
>militarists in power).
>                                Kelvin Luther


      Above, you make the statement that one would expect this of "Asian
combatants".  Why do you say specify Asian?  Not to say that Asians are
particularly nice in their waging of war, but that Asians do not posess
a monopoly on savage warfare.  One need not read too much about the
Germans vs. the Russians, or the Italians against the Ethiopians.  Nor
indeed about the Hutus and the Brundis of today or even the various
Yugoslavs.
      I think that the waging of "civil" warfare which we Americans and most
westerners have come to regard as the rule is, in fact, the exception seen
mainly between Western combatants rather than conflicts in which the West
is involved or conflicts between non-Westerners.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 00:54:58 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Ireland

Someone on here mentioned they had a professor who taught that "In WW2,
Prime Minister Churchill offered to turn over Ulster (Northern Ireland)
to the Dublin government in return for Ireland allowing Britain free use
of Irish sea-ports..."

Preposterous, of course.

For a start, neither Churchill nor anyone else had any authority to hand
over Ulster. Northern Ireland was/is an integral part of the United Kingdom.
The majority of its residents repeatedly express their preference to remain
part of the United Kingdom, rather than merge with Ireland.

Aside from authority,it would have been politically and morally impossible
to make such an offer. The enormous war-effort (and casualty rate) of the
people of Ulster fighting for Britain in two world wars created a
debt of
"debt of blood" which could not be ignored.

The civil unrest in Northern Ireland is a sad and complicated business, then
and now, but it was never a bargaining-chip in the Second World War.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:14:14 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Ireland

Recently, Sotheby's in London sold for L12,650 (sterling) a letter
written by Irish Prime Minister Eamon de Valera in May, 1945.
The letter was written to Ireland's then-Ambassador to USA, explaining
Mr De Valera's own defence of why he had expressed condolences on the
death of German Fuhrer Adolph Hitler.
        Mr de Valera wrote "... I acted very deliberately in this matter.
So long as we retained diplomatic relations with Germany, to have failed
to call upon the German representative would have been an act of unparonable
discourtesy to the German nations and to [Ambassador] Dr Hempel himself....
I certainly was not going to add to Dr Hempel's humiliation in the hour of
defeat...."
        Dr Dermot Keogh, an Irish historian, found that, in fact, German
Ambassador Hempel was not a Nazi and was deeply embarrassed by de Valera's
action in conveying condolences to Germany over Hitler's suicide.
        Mr de Valera's official condolences drew a lot of condemnation at the
time, not only from the USA and UK, but also from many Irish politicians who
expressed their repugnance.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 08:03:44 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

> John Riegsecker wrote:
>
> > I've read _Wake of the Wahoo_, by Forest Sterling who was the Yoeman (I
> think) and as I recall, he never discusses the incident.
>
> That's disappointing. Do you know of any other first-person accounts?
>
> Jodi Berls
> jberls@aol.com
>

Apparently George Grider, Wahoo's engineering and diving officer
at the time and later Skipper of the Flasher, was also an
eyewitness. The account of the incident in the volume 'War Under
The Pacific' of the Time-Life series, evidently gleaned from
Grider, supports O'Kane. It also says that the troops in the
motor launches, cabin cruisers, and lifeboats, fired on Wahoo
with machine guns and small arms.

Grider's book 'War Fish', which I've not read, may contain more
details. I plan on getting it from the local library later today.

---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 19:58:48 +0100
From:    Perrin Olivier <perrin@WORLD-NET.SCT.FR>
Subject: Re: TAC: Enterprise Green

>        In August and September 1940, while a large German force was being
>assembled in the Channel ports to invade England, a smaller force was also
>being assembled for a similar operation.  The target of this force was
>Ireland and the Germans showed uncharacteristic irony when they named the
>operation Enterprise Green.
>
Do you know what were the german forces involved in this operation ?
Thanks in advance
O. PERRIN
Paris - France

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 17:53:01 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accuracy and "Victory at Sea" (was- Re: Battle of the Bulge)

Thanks to Greg, Brad, and the others who answered my question re
the film of the BB explosion.

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:09:00 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: Strange American Desertion...

For facts about Sergeant John Provoo,see E. Bartlett Kerr's _Surrender
And Suvival_(Morrow,1985),a carefully researched account of Japanese
POW policy, and the experiences of Allied prisoners.  He was found guilty
of treason in 1953,but the verdict was overturned.
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 17 Mar 1995 to 18 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 18 Mar 1995 to 19 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 20 messages totalling 1072 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Dudley Morton (3)
  2. POW treatment
  3. Draft Requirements (2)
  4. Bataan
  5. [INF] USAAF 17 MAR 45
  6. [INF] USAAF 18 MAR 45
  7. [INF] USAAF 19 MAR 45
  8. [INF] USAAF 20 MAR 45
  9. Japanese Planes
 10. Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots (4)
 11. Offending Someome... (2)
 12. INF: 50 Years Ago - 19-MAR-1945
 13. INF: 50 Years Ago - 20-MAR-1945

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:02:42 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

Rod Rupert wrote:

> It also says that the troops in the motor launches, cabin cruisers, and
lifeboats, fired on Wahoo with machine guns and small arms.

I'm not especially impressed with this as a defense for the action, for two
reasons: 1) The *Wahoo* deliberately returned to the site of the sinking
after chasing another freighter for a time -- for what reason, O'Kane doesn't
say; perhaps only to make sure the transport actually had sunk and didn't
require a coup de grace, and 2) the troops fired *after* they had been fired
upon. O'Kane's account says that a machine gun on one of the life boats
opened up after *Wahoo*had  fired a shell from its four-inch gun. But I'll
try to search out the Grider account, too. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but
based on the evidence I have, the *Wahoo's* action seems to have been
unprovoked, and I think it was excessive.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 22:10:11 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

>
>John Riegsecker wrote:
>
>> I've read _Wake of the Wahoo_, by Forest Sterling who was the Yoeman (I
>think) and as I recall, he never discusses the incident.
>
>That's disappointing. Do you know of any other first-person accounts?
>
>Jodi Berls
>jberls@aol.com


Jodi,

I don't know of any, perhaps someone else does.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:23:23 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: POW treatment

On Sat, 18 Mar 1995, William Lippert wrote:

>       Above, you make the statement that one would expect this of "Asian
> combatants".  Why do you say specify Asian?  Not to say that Asians are
> particularly nice in their waging of war, but that Asians do not posess
> a monopoly on savage warfare.  One need not read too much about the
> Germans vs. the Russians, or the Italians against the Ethiopians.  Nor
> indeed about the Hutus and the Brundis of today or even the various
> Yugoslavs.
>       I think that the waging of "civil" warfare which we Americans and most
> westerners have come to regard as the rule is, in fact, the exception seen
> mainly between Western combatants rather than conflicts in which the West
> is involved or conflicts between non-Westerners.
>
> William Lippert
> The American University
>
        I have mentioned many times in other discussions German and
Russian atrocities and I don't see how my statement could be seen to
imply that Asians monopolize this sort of thing.  Would you not expect
atrocities amongst Asian combatants at this time?  I think most would and
that was part of the point which you reiterate in your last paragraph,
the lack of atrocities in previous wars at first glance seems out of
place compared to what the Japanese did later.  The answer I proposed was
that the earlier lack of atrocities were the result of their emulating
Western practices.  Later on they were behaving as they saw fit in
warfare.  I qualified this statement by refering only to the period of
WWII as well as mentioning the dominating influence of Japanese
militarists at the time, casting no dispersions from it on to anyone or
any action that came afterward.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:37:11 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: Draft Requirements

        A while back there was a question about draft designations.  At
the risk of repeating something already posted I think I have come across
a complete list.
                1A  fit for general military service
                1B  fit for limited military service
                1C  member of the armed forces
                1D  student fit for general military service
                1E  student fit for limited military service
               IIA  deferred for critical civilian work
              IIIA  deferred due to dependants
               IVA  already served in armed forces
               IVB  deferred by law ie. draft officials
               IVC  alien
               IVD  ministers
               IVE  conscientous objector
               IVF  physically, mentally, or morally unfit for service

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 01:12:57 -0600
From:    "NAME \"Tony Schuler\"" <SCHULERE@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Bataan

Hi all,

While watching the series WORLD AT WAR, I took down the Bataan Ballad.

        We are the battling bastards of Bataan
        No Momma, no Papa, no Uncle Sam
        No Aunts, no Uncles, nieces
        No pills, no planes, no artillery pieces
        And nobody gives a God Damn.

Thoought everyone might ennjoy.

Tony Schuler
Schulere@uwstout.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 06:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 17 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 17 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 2 B-24s fly bombing and
photo missions over Matsuwa Island, concentrating on the airfield, and on
returning photograph Shasukotan, Harumukotan, and Onnekotan Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 1 B-25 and 12 P-51s damage
21 locomotives and a river launch in the Peking area, around Tsinan, and
between Taiyuan and Tatung.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 44: In Burma, 70 of 77 B-29s hit a
storage dump at Rangoon; 2 others bomb targets of opportunity, the Sagyi
Airfield and warehouses at Bassein without loss.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 P-47s support the
British 36 Division around Mogok; 12 B-25s bomb troops and supplies near
Namlan; 33 P-47s hit road targets behind enemy lines, concentrating on the
Hay-ti and Mong Yai sectors; 40+ other fighter-bombers attack troops,
supplies, tanks, and trucks behind the battleline including the Ta-mun,
Namsaw, Pansupe, Tal-ti, and Kankang areas. Transports continue to fly troops
and supplies to frontline areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 892: 1,328 bombers and 820 P-51s are dispatched to hit oil,
industrial and rail targets in Germany; clouds extend from 1,000 to 15,000
feet (305 to 4,572 m) and over the targets there is 9/10 to 10/10 cloud
cover necessitating PFF methods for bombing; 5 B-17s and 2 P-51s are lost:
  1. 527 B-17s are sent to hit the oil refinery at Ruhland (214); 138 hit the
secondary target, the Bittefeld oil refinery; targets of opportunity are the
Vomag munitions factory at Plauen (125), Fulda (19), Cottbus (11) and other
(3); H2X radar is used; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 46
damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 35 MIA. Escorting are 252 of 280 P-51s; 1
is lost (pilot MIA).
  2. 449 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil refinery at Bohlen (152) and the
oil refinery and power station at Molbis (127); secondary targets are the
Zeiss works at Jena (71) and the marshalling yard at Erfurt (51); targets of
opportunity are Altenburg (36) and other (3); bombing is by H2X radar; 1 B-17
is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 15 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. 266 of 283
P-51s escort; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 346 B-24s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Munster (170)
and the Hanomag tank factory at Hannover (146); 9 other hit Herford, a target
of opportunity; Gee-H and H2X are used to bomb; 3 B-24s are damaged. The
escort is 122 of 128 P-51s.
  4. 6 B-24s fly a screening mission.
  5. 79 of 86 P-51s fly a freelance sweep without loss.
  6. 28 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss.
  7. 9 of 11 P-51s escort 2 F-5s and 1 Spitfire on a photo reconnaissance
mission over Germany.
  Mission 893: 9 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany, the Netherlands and France
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 650+ A-20s, A-26s, and
B-26s bomb 5 marshalling yards, 2 communications centers, an ordnance depot,
3 city areas, and several targets of opportunity; the attacks are to impede
the enemy movement of troops, equipment, and supplies in the face of the
advancing Allied forces; fighters fly escort, patrols, and armed
reconnaissance, cover the Remagen bridgehead, support the US III Corps NE of
Remagen, cooperate with the XII Corps which has penetrated several miles E of
Bad Kreuznach at one point, and operate with the XX Corps which at one point
reaches as far E as Birkenfeld. The 386th Fighter Squadron, 365th Fighter
Group, moves from Juzaine Airfield, Florennes, Belgium to Aachen, Germany
with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather grounds the
bombers. In Yugoslavia, 98 P-38s dive-bomb the Ptuj and Zagreb railroad
bridges, the Klinca Sela marshalling yard, and the Sisak marshalling yard and
bridge; B-24s, with fighter escort, drop supplies and F-5s, P-38s and P-51s
fly reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort. During the night of 17/18 Mar,
B-24s drop supplies in N Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s and B-26s during
the night of 16/17 Mar, bomb Po River crossings, other bridges, lights, and
movements in the Po Valley; B-25s bomb railroad bridges and fills at
Cittadella, San Michele all' Adige, Aldeno, Bozzolo, Canneto sull' Oglio,
Pontetidone, Pizzighettone, and Pontevico; fighters and fighter-bombers are
greatly restricted by bad weather but score effectively against dumps,
bridges, railroads, marshalling yards, trains, and buildings mainly in the Po
Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): On Chichi Jima Island, 11 Guam Island-based
B-24s hit Susaki Airfield; during the night of 17/18 Mar, 5 B-24s again hit
the airfield. HQ 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the 27th, 30th and 819th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) move from Saipan Island to Wheeler Field,
Hawaii with B-24s (the group will train and fly patrol missions until VJ-Day).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Formosa airfields
are pounded by B-24s operating in force. On Luzon Island, nearly 500 sorties
are flown in support of ground forces by B-25s, A-20s, and fighters. B-24s
hit Panay Island, Philippine Islands beaches preparatory to allied landings
on 18 Mar and bomb troops in the combat areas on Mindanao Island. Bacolod
Airfield on Negros Island is also bombed. HQ 317th Troop Carrier Group moves
from Leyte Island to Clark Field, Luzon; the 31st Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Morotai Island to Samar
Island with B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

19/1127Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 06:40:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 18 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 18 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  Me 262, Meserschmitt
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A weather sortie is flown.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-24s sweep the Gulf of Tonkin and
S China Sea, claiming 1 freighter damaged. 2 P-51s over N French Indochina
strafe trucks, troops, and horsecarts.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-47s support the
Chinese ground forces near Hsipaw; 8 others support British 36 Division
troops by dropping napalm NE of Mogok; 11 B-25s and 20 fighter-bombers hit
troop concentrations and supplies immediately behind the battlefront and
roads S of the bomb line are swept by 16 P-38s. Transports continue steady
operations.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 894: 1,329 bombers and 733 fighters are dispatched to hit railway
stations and tanks plants in the Berlin area; the attacks are made both
visually and with H2X radar; the Luftwaffe makes it's most concentrated and
successful attacks with Me 262s to date; the AAF claims 21-1-5 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 13 bombers (8 to flak) and 6 fighters are lost:
  1. 421 of 450 B-17s hit the Schlesischer rail station in Berlin; 13 hit
the secondary target, Zehdnuk; and 1 hits Vechta, a target of opportunity;
they claim 6-0-0 aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 8 damaged beyond repair and
268 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 18 WIA and 49 MIA. 179 of 199 P-51s escort;
they claim 4-0-2 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.
  2. 495 of 530 B-17s hit the Nord rail station in Berlin; targets of
opportunity are Ludwigslust (3) and other (3); they claim 1-1-1 aircraft; 7
B-17s are lost, 6 damaged beyond repair and 319 damaged; 1 airman is KIA,
12 WIA and 79 MIA. Escorting are 219 of 238 P-51s; they claim 7-0-1
aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.
  3. 347 B-24s are sent to hit the Tegel (225) and Henningsdorf (80) tank
factories in Berlin; targets of opportunity are Oranienburg (9), Uelzen (9)
and other (3); 1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 127 damaged; 1
airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 11 MIA. The escort is 254 P-51s; they claim 3-0-1
aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.
  4. 2 B-17s fly a scouting mission.
  5. 27 of 30 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  6. 1 of 12 P-51s escort 5 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over
Germany.
  Mission 895: 10 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): The 415th Night Fighter Squadron,
64th Fighter Wing, moves from Ochey to St Dizier, France with Beaufighters.
    Ninth Air Force: In Germany, 660+ A-20s, A-26s and B-26s hit the
marshalling yards at Wetzlar, Worms, Kreuztal, and Bad Durkheim, a
communications center at Bad Durkheim, and 4 town areas with the aim of
hampering enemy movement; fighters escort the bombers, attack assigned
targets, fly patrols, and armed reconnaissance, and cooperate with the US III
Corps at Remagen, with the XII Corps as it begins an assault towards the
Mainz-Worms sector of the Rhine River, and with the XX Corps as it moves
rapidly eastward through the Sankt Wendel area toward Kaiserslautern. HQ 70th
Fighter Wing moves from Verviers, Belgium to Bruhl, Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to reconnaissance and supply missions, a fighter-bomber attack by P-38s on
the Varazdin, Yugoslavia railroad bridge, after which many of the P-38s
strafe railroad communications in the Zagreb, Varazdin and Maribor,
Yugoslavia, and Villach, Austria areas, and a strafing mission against rail
communications and airfields in the Graz and Wiener-Neustadt, Austria,
Maribor, Yugoslavia, and Szombathely, Hungary areas.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 17/18
Mar, A-20s and A-26s continue intruder missions in the Po Valley,
concentrating on Po River crossings; B-25s bomb the railroad bridges at
Bozzolo, and Palazzuolo sull' Oglio, the railroad fill at Salorno, and
the causeway at Mantua; fighters and fighter-bombers hit dumps and support
ground forces S of Bologna, and attack communications targets over wide areas
of the Po Valley; the most devastating raid of the day is flown against the
Novara marshalling yard where 14 locomotives are destroyed.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 14 B-24s from Guam Island pound Susaki Airfield on
Chichi Jima Island and 1 other hits Haha Jima Island; during the night of
18/19 Mar, 5 more B-24s individually strike Susaki Airfield. The 392d
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from
Saipan Island to Kipapa, Hawaii with B-24s.
    VII Fighter Command: On Chichi Jima Island, 16 P-51s from Iwo Jima
Island dive-bomb radar and radio installations and barges.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 44: During the night of 18/19 Mar,
290 of 313 XXI Bomber Command B-29s continue the fire raids on Japanese
cities, bombing Nagoya from 4,500 to 9,000 feet (1,372 to 2,743 m) with
incendiaries for the second time this month; an additional 3 square miles
(7.8 square km) are destroyed; the Nagoya arsenal, Aichi engine plant and
freight yards are damaged but the Mitsubishi plants escape with minor damage;
this mission ends the March fire raids.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On S Luzon Island,
B-24s, A-20s, and fighters support ground forces by hitting the Ipo area and
various targets in Batangas Province. B-24s again bomb Bacolod on Negros
Island, hit several targets on Cebu Island, and bomb Sepinggang and
Jesselton Airfields on Borneo. On Formosa, the airfield at Tainan, seaplane
base at Takao, and emergency field at Koshun are also hit. The 419th Night
Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command, based at Puerto Princesa, Palawan
Island with P-61s, sends a detachment to operate from Zamboanga, Mindanao
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

19/1138Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 06:51:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 19 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 19 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  Me 262, Messerschmitt
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 5 B-24s bomb and photograph the Kashiwabara
naval base on Paramushiru Island. 8 B-25s bomb canneries along the Masugawa
and Asahigawa Rivers.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 5 B-24s on a sweep over the S China
Sea and Gulf of Tonkin claim a large freighter sunk. 4 P-38s strafe trucks
from Son La to Hoa Binh, French Indochina.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 24 P-38s support the
forces of the Chinese 50th Division near Hsipaw; 12 P-38s sweep roads S of
the bomb line while 27 P-47s operating over and behind enemy lines hit troop
concentrations and  supplies at Namlan, Namio, and Nam-maw-long and a
Japanese-held monastery at Nammaw-long. Transports fly 502 sorties to forward
areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 896: 1,273 bombers and 675 fighters are dispatched to hit airfields
and industrial targets in Germany visually and with H2X radar; clouds force 2
of the 3 forces to hit secondaries; 100+ Luftwaffe fighters including 36 Me
262s in formation (largest number of jets seen as a unit) are encountered;
the AAF claims 41-3-19 Luftwaffe aircraft (including 3 Me 262s); 6 bombers
and 10 fighters are lost:
  1. Cloud cover prevents 496 B-17s from hitting the primary targets;
secondaries hit are the optical works at Jena (197) and the motor vehicle
plant at Zwickau (177); targets of opportunity are Plauen (32), the
marshalling yards at Fulda (44) and Saalfeld (10) and other (4); bombing is
by H2X radar with some visual attacks; they claim 1-1-2 aircraft; 4 B-17s are
lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 121 damaged; 9 airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 49
MIA. Escorting are 183 of 198 P-51s; they claim 2-0-3 aircraft; 4 P-51s are
lost.
  2. Cloud cover forces 404 of 436 B-17s to hit the industrial area at
Plauen, the secondary target using H2X radar; targets of opportunity, bombed
visually, are the Fulda marshalling yard (20) and Prissig (1); 1 B-17 is
lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 4 damaged; 9 airmen are KIA, 3 WIA and 9
MIA. The escort is 141 of 153 P-51s.
  3. 341 B-24s are dispatched to hit airfields at Neuburg (125) and Leipheim
(84) and jet aircraft plant at Baumenheim (126) visually; 1 B-24 is lost; 11
airmen are MIA. 175 of 194 P-51s escort; they claim 5-0-0 aircraft without
loss.
  4. 95 of 98 P-51s fly a freelance sweep for the bombers; they claim 33-2-14
aircraft; 6 P-51s are lost.
  5. 2 of 4 P-51s escort 15 F-5s and 2 Spitfires on a photo reconnaissance
mission over Germany.
  Mission 897: 11 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): HQ 27th Fighter Group and the
522d, 523d and 524th Fighter Squadrons move from St Dizier to Ochey Airfield,
Toul, France with P-47s.
    Ninth Air Force: In Germany, the 9th Bombardment Division strikes 2
marshalling yards, 5 rail bridges, a communications center and several casual
targets as part of the interdiction program to impede enemy movement;
fighters escort the bombers, fly patrols and armed reconnaissance, support
the US III Corps W of Remagen, cooperates with the XII Corps' 4th Armored
Division E of Kaiserslautern as it drives toward the Rhine River; fighter-
bombers of the XIX Tactical Air Command, on a special mission, bomb the HQ of
Commander-in-Chief West (Field Marshall Gerd von Rundstedt) at Ziegenberg.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 800+ B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escorts, hit marshalling yards at Landshut, Passau, Muhldorf,
Plattling, Garching an der Alz and Altenmarkt an der Alz, Germany, and Sankt
Veit an der Glan, Lambach, Klagenfurt, Austria and 54 P-51s strafe railroads
in the target areas; 36 P-38s bomb the marshalling yard at Varazdin,
Yugoslavia; B-24s drop supplies in Yugoslavia while P-38s and P-51s fly
reconnaissance and escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XXII Tactical Air
Command A-20s strike heavily against general movement in the Po Valley during
the night of 18/19 Mar, and are followed during the day by fighter and
fighter-bomber attacks on communications in the C Po Valley and NE Italy
where numerous rail cuts are made, 3 bridges damaged, and several supply
dumps hit; medium bombers damage a bridge at Muhldorf, Germany, bridges and
fills at Perca, and at 7 other locations on the N Italian approaches to the
Brenner Pass.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: On Chichi Jima Island, 12 Guam Island-based B-24s
attack the Susaki Airfield and radio installations in the afternoon. During
the night of 19/20 Mar, Susaki Airfield is hit again by 5 B-24s flying
separate snooper strikes.
    VII Fighter Command: On Chichi Jima Island, 16 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island
bomb and strafe Susaki Airfield, a radio installation, and storage area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s and fighter-
bombers again hit installations on N Luzon Island. B-24s hit a variety of
targets on Cebu Island including the town of Minglanilla. The 8th Combat
Cargo Squadron, 2d Combat Cargo Group, moves from Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte
Island with C-46s; the 63d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment
Group (Heavy), moves from Tacloban, Leyte to Clark Field, Luzon with B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

19/1149Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 06:59:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 20 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 20 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 P-38s claim 11
trucks destroyed and 9 damaged between Son La and Hoa Binh.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 20 P-47s sweep roads S of the bomb
line in C Burma; 16 others hit supply dumps behind Japanese lines. Transports
continue to supply forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 898: 451 bombers and 355 fighters are dispatched to hit the
shipyard and dock area at Hamburg and an oil refinery; they claim 14-3-17
Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 bombers and 2 P-51s are lost:
  1. 13 of 152 B-17s hit the Blohm & Voss U-boat yard at Hamburg; 133 others
hit the secondary, the port area at Hamburg; bombing is visual; they claim
1-0-3 aircraft; 1 airman is KIA and 2 WIA. Escorting are 70 of 79 P-51s; they
claim 0-0-2 aircraft.
  2. 149 of 162 B-17s hit the secondary target, the Hamburg port area, using
H2X radar; 1 other hits the Nordholz Airfield, a target of opportunity; they
claim 5-3-2 aircraft; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 54
damaged; 27 airmen are MIA. The escort is 72 of 75 P-51s; they claim 0-0-2
aircraft.
  3. 114 of 129 B-24s attack the oil refinery at Hemmingstedt; 1 B-24 is lost
and 9 damaged; 12 airmen are MIA. 75 P-51s escort; they claim 2-0-1 aircraft
in the air and 1-0-2 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  4. 6 B-17s fly a screening mission without loss.
  5. 2 B-17s and 26 of 27 P-51s fly scouting missions.
  6. 78 of 82 P-51s fly a strafing mission in the Bremen-Hannover area; they
claim 2-0-3 aircraft in the air and 3-0-2 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost
(pilot MIA).
  7. 17 P-51s escort 11 F-5s and 2 Spitfires on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany.
  Mission 899: 1 B-17, escorted by 4 P-51s, bombs Oberursel at 1650 hours
from 25,000 feet (7,620 m); this is the first operational test of Micro-H Mk
II radar.
  Mission 900: 12 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany and 2
A-26s fly CARPETBAGGER missions (1 A-26 is lost).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 360+ A-20s, A-26s, and
B-26s bomb the Geisecke marshalling yard, Sythen ammunition-filling plant,
the town of Gronau (including a rail bridge), and several casual targets in
or near 9 other towns; fighters escort the bombers, fly patrols and armed
reconnaissance, support the US III and VII Corps just E of the Rhine River
between Bad Honningen and the Sieg River, and the XII and XX Corps as they
push to the Rhine River at Worms and at a point N of Mannheim.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 760+ B-17s and
B-24s, with fighter escort, hit the Korneuburg and Kagran oil refineries, the
marshalling yards at Wels, Sankt Polten, Amstetten, Wiener-Neustadt, and
Klagenfurt, and the tank works at Steyr. Routine supply, reconnaissance, and
escort missions continue. The 885th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 2641st
Special Group, moves from Brindisi to Rosignano, Italy with B-17s and B-24s
(the squadron transports supplies to partisans and drops leaflets).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XXII Tactical Air
Command A-20s during the night of 19/20 Mar continue intruder missions into
the Po Valley while fighters and fighter-bombers pound communications targets
in the Valley during the day and severely damage fuel dumps near Mantua;
medium bombers hit 4 bridges on the Brenner line and 2 others in NE Italy and
hit other bridge approaches nearby. HQ 79th Fighter Group moves from Fano to
Cesenatico, Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 12 Guam Island-based B-24s bomb Susaki Airfield on
Chichi Jima Island; during the night of 20/21 Mar, 4 other B-24s fly single
strikes against the airfield.
    VII Fighter Command: The air echelon of the 549th Night Fighter Squadron,
ceases operating from Saipan Island and moves to Iwo Jima with P-61s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers fly numerous ground support missions and
hit targets at Balete Pass, Bayombong, Tuguegarao, Antamok, San Fernando,
Bontoc and along roads. B-24s pound the supply and personnel area E of Cebu
City and N of Mambaling on Cebu Island, defensive positions NW of Talisay and
AA guns to the N, and also bomb Talisay on Negros Island. Other B-24s bomb
the town of Tainan, Formosa. B-25s on a shipping sweep sink 3 small vessels
near Qui Nhon, French Indochina. The 72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Morotai Island to Samar Island with
B-24s; the detachments of the 75th and 390th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium),
42d Bombardment Group (Medium), operating from Morotai Island, return to base
at Sansapor, New Guinea with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

19/1158Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 07:52:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese Planes

 >Hello people,
 >
 >    I'm a new user of Internet and this is my first week in WWII-L!
 >
 >    Let's go to the problem:
 >
 >    I'm seeking some data about the Japaneses aircrafts:
 >
 >    * AICHI M6A K - Nanzan ( a fighter interceptor ??? ), and
 >    * AICHI M6A1 - Seiran ( Codename PAUL ??? )
 >
 >used by Imperial Japanese Navy in 1942 or 1944, I not sure. If you
 >have any data about these planes (or other Japanese planes), please
 >e-mail me.
 >
 >    Thanks.
 >
 >Marco Flavio Mattana
 >Department of Industrial Design
 >PUC - Pr / Brazil
 >
 >MATTANA@RLA01.PUCPR.BR

We had a discussion about this aircraft several months ago.  The
Aichi M6A Seiran (Mountain Haze) was designed to operate from the
Japanese I-400 Class submarines.  In 1942, Aichi was ordered to
design a Navy Experimental 17-Shi Specail Attack Bomber for use
aboard these boats.  Two versions of this aircraft were designed,
the M6A1 with detachable floats and intended fro attack missions
and the M6A1-K Seiran Kai, with retractable landing gear intended
for training.

The first M6A1 was completed in Nov 43 and had a 1,400 hp Aichi
AE1P Atsuta 30 twelve-cylinder inverted-vee liquid-cooled engine.
It had a complicated wing and tail folding system but the aircraft
could be readed for flight from the submarine in less than 7
minutes by 4 trained sailors.

In addition to the first prototype, the following aircraft were
built:

1. 5 additional prottypes powered by the Atsuta 31 engine.
2. 2 M6A1-K with Atsuta 32 engines
3. 18 M6A1 production aircraft with the Atsuta 32 engine.

Plans were made to attack the lock gates of the Panama Canal by the
First Submarine Flotilla consisting of I-400 and I-401 each
carrying 3 M6A1s, and I-13 and I-14 carrying 2 M6A1s.  However, the
plan was changed to attack the US Navy anchorage at Ulithi Atoll
but the war ended before the attack could be carried out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 16:26:53 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM OPERATOR <system@ABOUIS.FDN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots

Hullo Rob,
(don't mind the header)

have you received Stalingrad all right ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 19:17:15 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <altinyay@BILKENT.EDU.TR>
Subject: Re: Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots

>
> Hullo Rob,
> (don't mind the header)
>
> have you received Stalingrad all right ?
>
> Arnaud.
>
 couldnt help but ask , does Stalingrad work on 4 mbytes ?
Ozgur Altinyay

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:02:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: Offending Someome...

Right on, George.

I wish certain people who shall remain nameless were as concerned about not offending World War II veterans as they are concerned about not offending the Japanese!

Perhaps those unnamed individuals will choose to be in Russia on V-E day instead of in the U.S.  Perhaps some of them will even  be in Japan on V-J day apologizing for Hiroshima.
 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 14:56:08 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

Rod Rupert asked whether or not war patrol reports were available for
the WAHOO.  I seem to remember an advertisement indicating that the
National Archives now had patrol reports available on microfilm.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 15:09:24 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Offending Someome...

> Perhaps those unnamed individuals will choose to be in Russia on V-E day
instead of in the U.S.

Unfortunately I will miss being in Russia for VE day by a few weeks.  It
would probably be pretty cool.  In 1991 on the aniversary of the German
invasion there was a large parade of WWII era Russian AFVs and veterans.
It would have been great to see T34's and KV's rumbling down the street,
(at least in 1991 not 1945).  I doubt if our government will sponser an
event like this.

Jon Stevens - jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 14:18:49 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Draft Requirements

>        A while back there was a question about draft designations.  At
>the risk of repeating something already posted I think I have come across
>a complete list.
>                1A  fit for general military service
>                1B  fit for limited military service
>                1C  member of the armed forces
>                1D  student fit for general military service
>                1E  student fit for limited military service
>               IIA  deferred for critical civilian work
>              IIIA  deferred due to dependants
>               IVA  already served in armed forces
>               IVB  deferred by law ie. draft officials
>               IVC  alien
>               IVD  ministers
>               IVE  conscientous objector
>               IVF  physically, mentally, or morally unfit for service

One of my draft cards was 1H, which I vaguely recall was something like
"classification in holding pending completion of student work". This was
early to mid '70's.

-----
Windows 96 == Macintosh 85

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 18:04:02 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 19-MAR-1945

On 19-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 3rd Army sector, the 87th Division captures
Koblenz. The 4th Armoured Division is making good progress towards
Wendelsheim and Schimsheim. The 11th Armoured Division breaks through the
last German 7th Army defences and starts to purse the enemy on the east
bank of the Rhine. The bridgehead of the 86th Division over the Rhine is
extended. The XX Corps is advancing towards the Rhine with units of the
10th Armoured Division reaching Kaeserslautern. Kusel and St Wendel are
taken by the 80th Division. In the 7th Army sector, the 70th Division
crosses the Saar near Saarbrucken. The 7th Army offensive against the
Siegfried Line continues with the XV Corps taking Webenheim and
Zweibrucken. The VI Corps captures Wissembourg.

Philippines - The 33rd Division takes Bauang. Elements of the 38th Division
land on the east end of Caballo Island without opposition. In the XIV Corps
area, elements of the 11th Airborne Division along with guerrillas occupy
Mt. Bijang without opposition. In the 8th Army sector, the 13th Air Force
starts an intensive pre-invasion bombardment of Cebu. On Panay, the 185th
Infantry continues toward Iloilo until halted by the Japanese at Molo.

Iwo Jima - The 4th Marine Division completes re-embarkation.

Burma - The Indian 19th Division is still unable to break into Fort
Dufferin.

Japan - For the second straight day, planes form TF 58 strike at the
Japanese homeland, concentrating on Japanese fleet units in the Kure-Kobe
area. Despite extremely heavy AA fire, carrier planes damage at least 16
Japanese warships. Japanese planes hit the carrier Franklin and leave it
burning and heavily damaged. During the afternoon TF 58 withdraws
southward, covering the disabled Frankling and conducting fighter sweeps
over Kyushu airfields.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 21:06:13 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 20-MAR-1945

On 20-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, units of the 78th Division
advance north along the Rhine and reach Bergahausen. In the 3rd Amry
sector, the 94th Division is advancing rapidly reaching the Rhine north of
Mannheim. The 80th Division converges on Kaiserslautern. In the 7th Army
sector, the XXI and XV Crops are across the Siegfried Line. The 70th
Division occupies Saarbrucken. The divisions of the VI Corps are having
difficulting penetrating the Siefgried Line, however.

Eastern Front - Troops of the 1st White Russian Front overrun Alt Damm in
Pomerania and eliminate the last German bridghead across the Oder, opposite
Stettin. In East Prussia, the 3rd White Russian Front takes Braunsberg.

Philippines - In the I Corps area, the 33rd Division moves north toward San
Fernando from the Bauang sector in an attempt to link up with the guerrilla
forces of northern Luzon. The Japanese withdraw from San Fernando under the
cover of darkness. The Japanese make a determined counterattack against the
43rd Division on Mt. Caymayuman. In the 8th Army sector, on Panay elements
of the 185th Infantry drive quickly through Molo to Iloilo, which is
secured with ease. All organized resistance on Panay has now collapsed.

Burma - The Indian 19th Division breaks into Fort Dufferin at Mandalay,
finding that the Japanese have withdrawn.

The Homefront
-------------
Army Acts On Curfew - The Army has ordered its personnel to observe the
midnight curfew request of the Federal Government and military police are
to make the rounds of the bar and night clubs to insure compliance.

Negro WAC's Sentenced - Four Negro privates in the Women's Army Corps have
been sentenced to a year at hard labor and dishonorable discharge for
refusing to obey superior officers. They testified they had been ordered to
do menial work "because of their color."

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           | jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 | http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 21:50:14 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots

Arnaud,
Got Stalingrad last week, sent you a message but it bounced.  Unfortunately
it uses SVGA graphics and I have a VGA monitor, so no go, like many
of the other games I have gotten lately.  Guess I will have to
upgrade soon.

How is your work going, haven't seen you on the net lately.  But then,
neither have I.

How is west front going, have you won as the Germans yet?

Cheers
Rob

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 21:57:37 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots

To WWII-L Members

Please forgive me, I meant to send my message to Arnaud by his private
post.  Instead I sent it to everyone. Mea culpa.
Rob

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 18 Mar 1995 to 19 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 21 messages totalling 653 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ADMIN: Happy Anniversary!
  2. Nuernberg
  3. HIST: Nuremberg trivia
  4. INF: USN Chronology 03-18-95
  5. INF: USN Chronology 03-19-95 (2)
  6. INF: USN Chronology 03-20-95
  7. Mountbatten Pink
  8. Bataan
  9. NOST: Nuernberg pt 2
 10. Offending Someome...
 11. Machine-gunning survivor (2)
 12. National Archives Fax-on-Demand Service
 13. Grenada Army Airfield, MS.
 14. Wahoo War Reports
 15. ADMIN: HAPPY ANNIV (2)
 16. INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-MAR-1945
 17. SAIPAN CONTROVERSY
 18. INF: 50 YEARS AGO - 19

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 23:02:53 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Happy Anniversary!

And Happy Anniversary!, to you, Joe.

:-)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:44:44 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Nuernberg

I had the pleasure of spending the past weekend in Nuernberg and, true to
form, dragged my wife and kids to all sorts of "interesting" places such
as the locations of the Nazi party rallies of the 1930s.  (Of course, the
trade off was a visit to the toy museum, the Czeck Republic, etc).  I'll
post some information/observations that might be of interest to the list.

We stayed in a place called the "American Bavarian Hotel", run by the US
Army and located right across the street from the main train station.  Here
is the history of the hotel (quoted from the dinner menu, an obviously
unimpeachable source):

The Bavarian American Hotel was built during the period 1932-1936 by the
Nazi Party.  Upon completion in 1936 the building was called the Grand
Hotel.  To the Nazi Party, it was known as the Stadt Reichsparteigastaette,
or the State Party House.

[Doug's note:  The BA Hotel and Grand Hotel today share the same building.
It appears from the outside that they were built at the same time and
simply split into two separate facilities]

The Hotel was the most modern building in Nuernberg, at the time, having an
elevator and service elevators throughout the building.  The major rooms -
now the Lobby, Continental Ballroom, and the Panzer Keller Restaurant -
were air conditioned.  The original system was renovated in 1978 and
portions of the original equipment are still functioning.  The building
has a fully automated central heating system; the sensors control the
temperature of circulating water by floor and building wing.  An engineering
room, located some sixty feet below street level houses all the controls.
The system was upgraded and includes new room radiators.  The building also
contains its own water chlorination plant and automatic emergency lighting
systems.

The Hotel was opened for the first time in 1936 for the Nazi Party Organization
Days, 28 July through 4 August.  The period of operation was on 14 days,
with service provided by the Grand Hotel staff.  From 1936 until the fall
of the Third Reich, the Hotel was used only for those 14 days each year for
ther party conference.

During its period of use by the Nazi Party, suite 379 was permanently
reserved for Air Marshall herman Goeing.  His living room was carpeted
with two-inch thick white lamb's wool.  Adolph Hitler refused to use
the Hotel because of its connection with Grand Hotel, which ahd refused
him accommodation in 1931.

[Doug's note: Hitler stayed at the Deutscher Hof hotel, just down the
street]

The Bavarian American Hotel was bombed in August 1944, the fifth and
sixth floors and the lobby were burned out.  On June 30, 1945, the
Hotel was confiscated by the US Forces.

>From 1945 until 22 December 1953, The Bavarian American hotel and the Grand
Hotel were used by the US Forces as an Officers' and Civilian's Club and
BOQ.  The complex also was the residence of the judges and attorneys
participating in the war crimes trials.  During this period, the fifth and
sixth floors and the lobby were rebuilt.  On 23 December 1953, The Grand
Hotel was returned to its owners, and the US Forces operation continued at
the American Bavarian Hotel.  From December 1953 until 1959 the hotel was
limited to officers and civilians.  In 1959 the facility was opened to all
grades.

[Doug's note:  As it now stands the hotel will probably close for good
in Sept or Oct of this year -- another victim of the drawdown of US
Forces in Europe]

I'll post more later on the Party Rallies, the grounds, and how things
look today.

                               Doug

Doug Donnell
Ruppertsweiler, Germany
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 07:38:56 -0500
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: HIST: Nuremberg trivia

Doug Donnell's post reminded me of a weird experience I had in 1974. I was
standing on the "tribune" (the speaker's rostrum at the Speer-designed
Zeppelinwiese) when I heard march music ... thought I'd entered
a time-warp. I expected to see parading troops and cheering crowds.
Discovered later that the music came from an amusement park nearby, also
located in a former Parteitag site at the Luitpoldhain.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Mar 1995 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-18-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/18 Sun. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm.
           M. A. Mitscher) bomb airfields on Kyushu, Japan.
           Army troops are landed on southeast coast of Panay,
           P. I., by naval task group (Rear Adm. A. D. Struble)
           under cover of cruiser and destroyer gunfire.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Carrier ENTERPRISE (CV-6), by horizontal bomber,
              off Kyushu, Japan,
              30 d. 50'N., 133 d. 42'E.
             Carrier YORKTOWN (CV-10), by horizontal bomber,
              off Kyushu, Japan,
              30 d. 40'N., 133 d. 49'E.
             Carrier INTREPID (CV-11), by suicide plane and
              accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
              off Kyushu, Japan,
              30 d. 47'N., 133 d. 50'E.
             LST 635, by grounding, Philippine Islands area,
              11 d. 05'N., 125 d. 05'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Transport No. 18, by submarine SPRINGER (SS-414),
              south of the Ryukyu Islands,
              26 d. 33'N., 127 d. 11'E.
            German submarine sunk:
             U-866, by destroyer escorts MENGES (DE-320), MOSLEY
              (DE-321), PRIDE (DE-323), and LOWE (DE-325),
              northwest Atlantic area,
              43 d. 18'N., 61 d. 08'W.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 19 Mar 1995 04:00:08 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-19-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/19 Mon. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M.
           A. Mitscher) bomb airfields on Kyushu, and shipping
           at Kure and Kobe, Honshu, Japan.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Carrier ESSEX (CV-9), accidentally by United States
              naval gunfire, off Shikoku, Japan,
              32 d. 10'N., 134 d. 20'E.
             Carrier FRANKLIN (CV-13), by horizontal bomber,
              off Kyushu, Japan,
              32 d. 01'N., 133 d. 57'E.
             Carrier WASP (CV-18), by dive bomber,
              off Shikoku, Japan,
              32 d. 16'N., 134 d. 05'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             River gunboat SUMA, by Army mine,
              off Shanghai, China,
              32 d. 00'N., 120 d. 00'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 04:00:09 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-20-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/20 Tue. Submarine PERCH (SS-313) lands personnel on east coast
           of Borneo.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Carrier ENTERPRISE (CV-6), accidentally by United
              States naval gunfire, off Japan,
              30 d. 01'N., 134 d. 30'E.
             Destroyer HALSEY POWELL (DD-686), by suicide plane,
              off Japan,
              30 d. 27'N., 134 d. 28'E.
             Submarine DEVILFISH (SS-292), by suicide plane,
              off Volcano Islands,
              25 d. 36'N., 137 d. 30'E.
             Cargo ship HERCULES (AK-41), by collision,
              Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:12:29 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Mountbatten Pink

Hey, maybe the movie "Operation Petticoat" wasn't all wrong :-)

                             Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:46:50 -600
From:    Lowell Rick Cox <lcox@AMERIS.NCSC.AMERITECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Bataan

>Hi all,
>
>While watching the series WORLD AT WAR, I took down the Bataan Ballad.
>
>        We are the battling bastards of Bataan
>        No Momma, no Papa, no Uncle Sam
>        No Aunts, no Uncles, nieces
>        No pills, no planes, no artillery pieces
>        And nobody gives a God Damn.
>
>Thoought everyone might ennjoy.
>
>Tony Schuler
>Schulere@uwstout.edu
>
What tune was this set to please.

Rick Cox    lcox@ameris.ameritech.com
Ameritech National Customer Service Center
Hoffman Estates, Illinois.

Modification of an old Cav saying; If you ain't Cav, you got over!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 18:09:20 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST: Nuernberg pt 2

The travelogue continues. . .

But first, a little background on the party rallies -

Nazi party rallies were held each year in the late summer, first as party
gatherings and later as huge national events with untold pomp and ceremony.
In the late 20s Hitler began his ceremonies in Nuernberg, centered around
the memorial to the first world war -- the Ehrenmal.  As the power of the
Nazi party continued to grow, so did the size of the ceremonies.  It
became clear that to effectively hold ceremonies on the scale envisioned
by the party leaders, a special rally area had to be built.  The first
of these was held in 1933, in an area adjacent to the Ehrenmal on the
outskirts of Nuernberg.

Quoting from "After the Battle, no 2",

The Volkischer Beobachter on August 30, 1933, reported that during the
previous two weeks a huge wooden grandstand had been erected, surrounded
by three wooden towers ninety-six feet high and visible from a great
distance.  Large flags, seventy eight by eighteen feet in size, were mounted
on top of each tower.  The flagpoles put up in this area stood 105 feet high.
The speaker's platform and grandstand for 60,000 people were completed.
The former was eighteen feet high and could accomodate 1,000 honorary
guests.  On one side of the field stood a large stand for the press that
seated 1,500.  Eighty two loudspeakers had been installed.  This work was
done by 1,500 workers in a very short period of time.

End of quote

I forgot to mention the name of this area -- the Luitpoldhain -- named after
the Bavarian king.

Following the 1933 rally the first large scale construction project was
begun to prepare the area for the 1934 party congress.  A permanent
reviewing stand was constructed and Albert Speer was commissioned to plan
the overall design of a rally area befitting a 1000 year Reich.

More tomorrow. . .

                               Doug Donnell

4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:49:47 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Offending Someome...

According to current news reports, the V-E Day parade in Moscow will
be largely demilitarized, while the "Official" V-end of the war or
something else that shall remain unexplained Day will be armed to
the teeth.

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:07:29 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 03-19-95

>UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
>from:
>//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt
>
>1945
>03/19 Mon. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M.
>           A. Mitscher) bomb airfields on Kyushu, and shipping
>           at Kure and Kobe, Honshu, Japan.
>            United States naval vessels damaged:
>             Carrier ESSEX (CV-9), accidentally by United States
>              naval gunfire, off Shikoku, Japan,
>              32 d. 10'N., 134 d. 20'E.
>             Carrier FRANKLIN (CV-13), by horizontal bomber,
>              off Kyushu, Japan,
>              32 d. 01'N., 133 d. 57'E.
>             Carrier WASP (CV-18), by dive bomber,
>              off Shikoku, Japan,
>              32 d. 16'N., 134 d. 05'E.
>            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
>             River gunboat SUMA, by Army mine,
>              off Shanghai, China,
>              32 d. 00'N., 120 d. 00'E.
>


I noticed all the damage done to U.S. Naval vessels by U.S. gunfire - would
it be correct to assume that this would probably be the result of ordanance
ment for Japanese aircraft that inadvertantly struck U.S. vessels - or does
anyone have any other information.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:30:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine-gunning survivor

Hello, Lou!

Just a quick response to your question.


> I have heard a story that Allied fighter pilots, knowing that German jet
> pilots were aces, shot at them in their parachutes to prevent them from
> flying more missions in their jets.  Does anyone out there know if this is
> true?

    I have heard that one too. The only way that Allied pilots could
get at those 262 pilots was to locate their bases, if possible, wait
for them to take off or get them just before they landed.

    To my knowledge, there was no official policy on this. As you
well know, both sides did some of this regardless of the type of
aircraft flown.

    Anyway, hope that has been of some help.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:48:28 -0500
From:    Debra Wall <debra.wall@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: National Archives Fax-on-Demand Service

The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)
fax-on-demand service is an interactive fax retrieval system that allows
users to select and receive by fax a wide variety of NARA information.
To use the system call (301) 713-6905 from the handset of a fax
machine and follow the voice instructions. There is no charge for this
service except for any long distance telephone charges you may incur.

The system now contains about 120 documents and includes general
information about the National Archives and its facilities and holdings;
general information, finding aids and ordering information for motion
picture, video and sound recording, electronic and cartographic records;
information about the holdings of the Regional Archives and Presidential
Libraries systems; news releases; job announcements; the John F.
Kennedy Assassination Records Collection register; and daily Federal
Register table of contents and public inspection lists.

You can obtain the full list of available documents in 3 ways:

1.      By calling the fax-on-demand system at (301) 713-6905 using the
handset of your fax machine. Follow the voice instructions and select
document #1.

2.      By sending me an e-mail message at debra.wall@arch2.nara.gov
with the subject heading "faxlist". You will receive an automated reply.

3.      By accessing the NARA gopher, CLIO.  Point your gopher client to
gopher.nara.gov, or use a Web browser (such as Mosaic or Lynx) to
open the following URL:  http://www.nara.gov/.  Many, but not all, of the
fax-on-demand documents are also available on the gopher.

We welcome all comments and suggestions about the fax-on-demand
service.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 15:43:17 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Grenada Army Airfield, MS.

Hello all.

 I am seeking information on the Grenada Army Air Field,
Grenada, Mississippi and it's associated rifle range as
part of a DERP-FUDS study designed to determine whether
the site needs to be remediated due to it's use during the
period July 1942 through March 1945.

 I am interested in the following units stationed at the
GAAF:
    443d Base Headquarters and Air Base Squadron.
    63d Troop Carrier Group.

 Also would anyone happen to know what the acronym
HITTC stands for? I suppose the TCC is for Troop Carrier
Command (Paratrooper chauffeurs and glider tug pilots) but the
HI portion has me stumped.  Additionally, would anyone happen
to know which sidearms (if any) were typically carried by C-47
and C-60 aircrew as well as some idea of how much training
they actually accomplished with their sidearms (if any).

Any and all responses are welcome.




 Mike LaForge
 U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosives Safety (USATCES)
 Explosives Safety Logistics Division (ESL)
 Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used
 Defense Sites(DERP-FUDS)
 DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-6009  COMM: 815-273-8762

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 20:00:07 -0500
From:    Thomas Wildenberg <wildman@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Wahoo War Reports

For those of you interested in same the War Patrol for Wahoo (First -
Sixth Patrols Aug 42/Aug 43) can be found in fiche # 1146-1148, microfilm
series M1752.

Source: M1752
        U.S. Submarine War Patrol Reports, 1941-1945
        Washington, DC: National Archives and Recrods Administration, 1993.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 21:09:43 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: HAPPY ANNIV

Joe, I've just cranked up after being off the computer attending the Nimitz
Conference in San Antonio. I'd like to add my congratulations for your year of
successfully running the board. As they say in the naval service, "Bravo Zulu
," Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 21:18:38 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: HAPPY ANNIV

Thanks for the great job Joe, there's been a lot for you to put up with
(including my pestering) but all in all it's gone pretty smoothly. I
remember wondering if this list was going to self destruct when Larry
couldn't find a new moderator, and then being elated that you'd stepped
in to take the reins! Thanks again,
Dave
P.S. do we all have to buy you a paper product or something like that :-)
(whatever 1st ann. is)?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 21:36:24 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-MAR-1945

On 21-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the VII Corps reaches the
river Sieg. Elements of the XII Corps reach Bingen. The 4th Armoured
Division advances north along the west bank of the Rhine capturing Worms.
The XX Corps occupies the west bank of the Rhine south of Worms to
Mannheim. The 12th Armoured Division reaches the outskirts of Ludwigshafen.
The 10th Armoured Division takes Neustadt, Darmstadt, Annweiler,
Queichhambach and Demsieders. In the 7th Army sector, the 63rd Division
liberates the area around Neukirchen. The 42nd Division resumes the
offensive towards the West Wall.

Philippines - In the I Corps area, elements of the 33rd Division link up
with Filipino guerrillas in the vicinity of San Fernando. The west coast of
Luzon is now clear. Elements of the 25th Division beat off a determined
counterattack on a ridge leading to Mt. Myoko. In the XI Corps area,
Japanese resistance to the 43rd Division collapses and Mt. Caymayuman, Mt.
Yabang and Sugar Loaf are cleared with ease.

Burma - All organized resistance within Mandalay ceases.

China - The Japanese begin a drive on the Laohokow airfield, moving by
night.

The Homefront
-------------
Baseball Players May Leave War Jobs - The War Manpower Commission has ruled
that baseball players may return to the game from any off-season
employment. Chairman Paul McNutt says "baseball adds to the morale on the
home front " and is in demand by soldiers here and overseas.

Byron Nelson Beats Sam Snead - Byron Nelson has won the Charlotte golf
tournament, defeating Sam Snead 69-73 in the 18-hole final.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 21:35:13 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: SAIPAN CONTROVERSY

I'll be happy to, Chip, but the paper is too long to keyboard and post it. Give
me you snail mail address and I'll send it to you. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 22:21:32 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine-gunning survivor

>
> Hello, Lou!
>
> Just a quick response to your question.
>
>
> > I have heard a story that Allied fighter pilots, knowing that German jet
> > pilots were aces, shot at them in their parachutes to prevent them from
> > flying more missions in their jets.  Does anyone out there know if this is
> > true?

Terry, I don't think this was me, but thanks for the post.  :-)  Lou

>     I have heard that one too. The only way that Allied pilots could
> get at those 262 pilots was to locate their bases, if possible, wait
> for them to take off or get them just before they landed.
>
>     To my knowledge, there was no official policy on this. As you
> well know, both sides did some of this regardless of the type of
> aircraft flown.
>
>     Anyway, hope that has been of some help.
>
>     All the best.
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 20 Mar 1995 23:50:01 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 YEARS AGO - 19

The devastating damage suffered by the Franklin reminds me of the Saturday a
week before 1 April, L-Day on Okinawa. The invasion force was forming up in
Ulithi Lagoon, and I was standing at the railing of the ship I was on together
with a couple of friends who were Marine communicators. It was a drizzly,
cloudy day, and all of a sudden, out of the fog appeared a large carrier
escorted by a cruiser close aboard. As they came nearer, we could see that the
carrier had suffered heavy damage and we could make out her hull number, and
that of the cruiser. They were, of course, the Franklin and the Santa Fe. The
next day, Sunday, dawned clear and bright, about off our portside, about half a
mile away, was the Franklin, her flight deck curving up like a roller coaster,
and you could see through the hangar decks the blackened bulkhead, and,
perhaps, if memory serves, some slight smoke still. As you know, she was
repaired enough to enable her to make hew own way to the Brooklyn Navy Yard,
with repair crews still working on her, although she would never fight again.
When it reached Brooklyn, so I recall, they were still recovering bodies from
the twisted innards of the ship. She and her men deserve all the honor we can
give them. Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Mar 1995 to 20 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 40 messages totalling 1739 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 03-21-95
  2. [INF] USAAF 21 MAR 45
  3. USS Franklin
  4. Doenitz and agg war
  5. Balloon?!!
  6. Offending Someome...
  7. NOST:Nuernberg pt 4
  8. NOST: Nuernberg pt 3
  9. NOST: Nuerenberg Pt 5
 10. NOST: Nuernberg pt 5
 11. NOST: Nuernberg pt 6 (2)
 12. Enterprise Green
 13. Blutfahn
 14. James Howard (4)
 15. SAIPAN CONTROVERSY
 16. General - WWII Ghost Stories (2)
 17. HUMOR - WWII Ghost Stories (2)
 18. Hitler's Uniform On Display (5)
 19. INF: 50 Years Ago - 22-MAR-1945
 20. WANT: Artist/Cartoonist
 21. Japanese Balloons
 22. [INF] USAAF 22 MAR 45
 23. More on Bong
 24. Grenada Army Airfield, MS.
 25. <No subject given>
 26. JAMES HOWARD
 27. HITLER'S UNIFORM O
 28. Mountbatten Pink
 29. Wahoo War Reports
 30. your mail

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 04:00:14 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-21-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/21 Wed. Japanese aircraft make first known operational use of
           piloted bombs in unsuccessful attack against Admiral
           Mitscher's fast carrier task force.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 33 and cable layer TATEISHI,
              by Army aircraft, South China Sea,
              11 d. 50'N., 109 d. 18'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:04:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 21 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 21 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-63, Bell Kingcobra
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (Fourth Air Force): A P-63 from Walla Walla AAFld,
Washington, intercepts a Japanese balloon near Redmond, Washington, and,
after a chase that includes 2 refueling stops, shoots it down near Reno,
Nevada.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 P-51s damage several locomotives
and boxcars at Vinh Airfield, French Indochina and along the railroad to the
N. 6 B-24s claim 1 vessel damaged in S China Sea.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30 P-47s support Chinese
ground forces in the Hsipaw area; 34 P-38s sweep roads S of the bomb line; 13
B-25s and 18 P-47s attack troop concentrations and vehicles at several points
behind the Japanese lines; 526 air supply sorties are flown to the forward
areas; in ground action in the area of the British Fourteenth Army's 33
Corps, organized resistance ceases in Mandalay and Allied forces completely
take over that city.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 5 missions are flown.
  Mission 901: Preparatory air operations for the forthcoming (23 Mar)
crossing of the lower Rhine River by Allied ground forces begin. 1,408
bombers and 806 fighters, in conjunction with Ninth Air Force and RAF
aircraft, attack jet fighter bases; with one exception, all attacks are
visual; they claim 58-3-49 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17s and 9 P-51s are lost:
  1. 107 of 152 B-17s hit the secondary target, the tank factory at Plauen;
targets of opportunity are Reichenbach (34) and other (1); they claim 3-3-3
aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost and 48 damaged. The escort is 273 of 314 P-51s;
they claim 9-0-0 aircraft in the air and 3-0-0 on the ground; 3 P-51s are
lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 129 of 151 B-17s attack Hardorf Airfield; 14 others hit Vorden Airfield,
a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 71
damaged. Escorting are 94 of 98 P-51s; they claim 0-0-2 aircraft in the air.
  3. 214 B-17s are sent to attack the airfields at Zwischenahn (57), Marx
(77) and Wittmundhafen (74); casualties for 1., 2. and 3. above are 7 WIA and
56 MIA. 108 of 109 P-51s escort and claim 2-0-8 aircraft on the ground; 1
P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  4. 518 B-24s are dispatched to hit airfields at Ahlhorn (61), Hesepe (165),
Achmer (180) and Mulheim Airfield at Essen (90); 21 B-24s are damaged.
Escorting are 95 of 99 P-51s; they claim 35-0-30 aircraft on the ground; 3
P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  5. 373 B-17s are sent to hit airfields at Hopsten (159 using Gee-H) and
Rheine (180); targets of opportunity are the airfields at Hesepe (13) and
Achmer (12); 1 B-17 is lost and 49 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 3 WIA and 9
MIA. 97 of 102 P-51s escort; they claim 6-0-0 aircraft on the ground.
  6. 36 P-51s fly a sweep over Giebelstadt Airfield and claim 0-0-6 aircraft
on the ground.
  7. 13 P-51s escort 9 F-5s, 1 P-38 and 1 Spitfire on photo reconnaissance
missions over Germany.
  8. 35 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 902: In a DISNEY operation, 3 B-17s attack the E-boat pens at
Ijmuiden, the Netherlands with rocket bombs; 6 P-51s escort.
  Mission 903: 1 B-17 bombs Oberursel in a Micro-H Mk II radar test; 4 P-51s
escort.
  Mission 904: During the afternoon, 90 of 92 B-24s attack Mulheim Airfield
at Essen; 60 are damaged and 1 airman is WIA.
  Mission 905: 8 of 9 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 580+ A-20s, A-26s, and
B-26s strike 6 communications centers and a marshalling yard E of the Rhine
River, along with several casual targets, in the interdiction campaign to
obstruct enemy movement; fighters fly patrols and armed reconnaissance,
attack railroads and bridges, support the US VII Corps as its units reach the
Sieg River near Siegburg, cooperate with the XII Corps as more of its
elements reach the Rhine River at various points between Boppard and Worms,
and support the XX Corps as additional units reach the Rhine between Worms
and Mannheim.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 660+ B-24s and B-17s, with
fighter escorts, bomb the Neuburg an der Donau Airfield, Germany, marshalling
yards at Villach (2 yards), Klagenfurt, Graz and Bruck and der Mur, Austria,
and Pragersko, Yugoslavia, 3 oil refineries and a goods depot at Vienna,
Austria, and 4 scattered targets of opportunity; supply and reconnaissance
missions with escort are flown.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): A-20s continue to attack
communications in the Po Valley especially the Po River crossings during the
night of 20/21 Mar; during the day fighter-bombers concentrate on railroad
targets (lines, trains, bridges, and viaducts) and dumps in the Po Valley and
areas N of the battleline in the N Apennines; medium bombers bomb a railroad
fill at Salorno, bridges at Casarsa della Delizia and Pizzighettone,
marshalling yards at Vipiteno and Brennero, and bridge approaches at Campo.
The 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons, 79th Fighter Group, move from Fano to
Cesenatico, Italy with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: On Chichi Jima Island, 13 B-24s, based on Guam Island,
hit Susaki Airfield, which is hit again during the night of 21/22 Mar by 5
more, flying separate strikes.
    VII Fighter Command: 16 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island strafe and bomb
barracks and radio and radar installations on Chichi Jima.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-25s, A-20s, and fighters continue large-scale support missions, hitting a
variety of targets including Japanese defenses at Lipa and Tarlac and the
town of Naga and Camiling. In the C Philippine Islands B-24s hit targets near
Cebu City while A-20s pound other towns on Cebu Island. B-24s bomb Samah
Airfield on Hainan Island. B-25s on a shipping sweep attack and set afire a
freighter SE of Nanao Island, China. HQ 42d Bombardment Group (Medium) and
the 390th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) move from Morotai Island to Puerto
Princesa, Palawan Island with B-25s; the 67th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter
Group, ceases operating from Morotai with P-38s and returns to base at Puerto
Princesa, Palawan.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

21/1303Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USS Franklin

 >The devastating damage suffered by the Franklin reminds me of the Saturday a
 >week before 1 April, L-Day on Okinawa. The invasion force was forming up in
 >Ulithi Lagoon, and I was standing at the railing of the ship I was on together
 >with a couple of friends who were Marine communicators. It was a drizzly,
 >cloudy day, and all of a sudden, out of the fog appeared a large carrier
 >escorted by a cruiser close aboard. As they came nearer, we could see that the
 >carrier had suffered heavy damage and we could make out her hull number, and
 >that of the cruiser. They were, of course, the Franklin and the Santa Fe. The
 >next day, Sunday, dawned clear and bright, about off our portside, about half a
 >mile away, was the Franklin, her flight deck curving up like a roller coaster,
 >and you could see through the hangar decks the blackened bulkhead, and,
 >perhaps, if memory serves, some slight smoke still. As you know, she was
 >repaired enough to enable her to make hew own way to the Brooklyn Navy Yard,
 >with repair crews still working on her, although she would never fight again.
 >When it reached Brooklyn, so I recall, they were still recovering bodies from
 >the twisted innards of the ship. She and her men deserve all the honor we can
 >give them. Ben Frank

Another fact that we Irish-Americans are proud of is that the first
chaplain since the Civil War won the Medal of Honor for deeds
performed on the USS Franklin.  He was a Jesuit priest and Navy
chaplain named O'Callaghan and as I remember the story, the hangar
deck was on fire and full of ordnance.  On three different
occasions, he rounded up volunteers and led them to the hangar deck
and led them in throwing the ordnance over the side.  This act is
credited with saving the ship.

I believe a destroyer or DE was named in his honor.

If anyone has access to information about this act of heroism, I
would appreciate hearing it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 07:55:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doenitz and agg war

Hello, William!

Thanks for the note, and hope all is well.

>    You mentioned in one of your posts Doenitz's aggressive use of submarines
> in the Battle of the Atlantic.  This did indeed get him in some hot water.
> He was held responsible for the sinking of unarmed merchants without warning
> or chance for the crew to abandon ship.  However, Nimitz and many other
> American naval men came to his defence, saying that the US had pursued a
> similar policy in the Pacific.

    Yes, and their depositions may have had some affect, but I do not
feel that Admiral Doenitz should have been tried, as he wasn't and
didn't do any more or less than any of the other combattants. That
was my point.

    Thanks again for the note, and please stay in touch.

    All the best.

    Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:57:13 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Balloon?!!

Excerpted from Jack McKillop's excellent daily postings:

>Subj:  [INF] USAAF 21 MAR 45
>
>  ZONE OF INTERIOR (Fourth Air Force): A P-63 from Walla Walla AAFld,
>Washington, intercepts a Japanese balloon near Redmond, Washington, and,
>after a chase that includes 2 refueling stops, shoots it down near Reno,
>Nevada.

How damn fast was this balloon anyway?  ;-)

(Somewhat) more seriously, I just took a quick look at an atlas.  From
Walla Walla (near the Washington/Oregon border), going SSW to Reno (near
the California/Nevada border, looks to be around 450 miles.  And this
took two refueling stops?  The balloon must have been at a very high
altitude, so that the P-63 had to expend an inordinate amount of time
and fuel trying to reach it.

I'm assuming that this was one of the balloons carrying an incendiary
bomb.  Did the bomb detonate when it hit the ground?  Also, how did
the AAF spot the balloon in the first place?  Would something as small
as a bomb casing and/or as diaphanous as a balloon show up on radar?
Wouldn't the balloons have been very difficult to detect visually,
particularly if they were at extreme altitudes?  Was there some sort
of standing airborne patrol, or was this a chance encounter while the
P-63 was on a different mission?

Jack, could you please tell me where you read this account?  I'd be
interested in reading more about it.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 06:43:10 -0800
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Offending Someome...

You wrote:

>
>According to current news reports, the V-E Day parade in Moscow will
>be largely demilitarized, while the "Official" V-end of the war or
>something else that shall remain unexplained Day will be armed to
>the teeth.
>
>HS
>
>

and guess who will be with the russians?  OUR fearless "leader"?
Everyone should find a VE or VJ day T shirt and wear it.

LG

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:08:18 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST:Nuernberg pt 4

Continuing quotes from William Shirer-

Sept 6

Hitler sprang his Arbeitsdienst, his Labour Service Corps, on the public
for the first time today and it turned out to be a highly trained, semi-
military group of fanatical Nazi youths.  Standing there in the early
morning sunlight which sparkled on their shiny spades, fifty thousand
of them, with the first thousand bared above the waist, suddenly made
the German spectators go mad with joy when, without warning, they broke
into a perfect goose step. . .They [the labor service boys] formed an
immense Sprechchor -- a chanting chorus -- and with one voice intoned such
words as these "We want one Leader! Nothing for us! Everything for Germany!
Heil Hitler!"

Sept 7

Another great pagent tonight.  Two hundred thousand party officials packed
in the Zeppelin Wiese with their twenty-one thousand flags unfurled in
the searchlights like a forest of weird trees.  "We arstrong and will get
stronger," Hitler shouted at them through the microphone, his words
echoing across the hushed field from the loudspeakers.  . .
Later they recovered enough -- fifteen thousand of them -- to stage a
torchlight parade through Nuremberg's ancient streets, Hitler taking the
salute infront of the station across from our hotel.

Sept 8

Today the army had its day, fighting a very realistic sham battle in the
Zeppelin Meadow.  it is difficult to exaggerate the frenzy of the three
hundred thousand German spectators when they saw their soldiers go into
action, heard the thunder of the guns, and smelt the powder.  I feel
that all those Americans and English (among others) who thought that
German militarism was merely a product of the Hohenzollerns -- from
Frederick the Great to Kaiser Wilhelm II -- made a mistake.  It is rather
something deeply ingrained in all Germans.  They acted today like children
playing with tin soldiers.  The Reichwehr "fought" today only with the
"defensive" weapons allowed them by Versailles, but everybody knows
they've got the rest -- tanks, heavy artillery, and probably airplanes.

Later -

After seven days of almost ceaseless goose-stepping, speech-making, and pageantry, the party rally come to and end tonight.  You have to go through one of
these to understand Hitler's hold on the people, to feel the dynamic in the
movement he's unleashed and the sheer, disciplined strength the Germans posses.  And now -- as Hitler told the correspondents yesterday in explaining his
technique -- the half-million men who've been here during the week will go
back to their towns and villages and preach the new gospel with new
fanaticism.

To be continued. . .

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:50:08 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST: Nuernberg pt 3

My apologies for the typos and sometimes poor syntax yesterday.  I was about
to doze off as I was typing.  No such excuses today.

Continuing. . .

An area adjacent to the Luitpoldhain called the Zeppelinwiese (Zepplelin-meadow,so named as it had previously been used as a landing zone for Zeppelins) was
also developed into a large parade ground.

The area was used in the early 30s, but was greatly enlarged with many permanentstructures for the 1936 party congress.  The capacity was increased to hold
400,000 people.  A road seventy two feet wide was built in front of the
reviewing stand.  The reviewing stand itself was 80 feet high and 1300 feet
long, built out of brick with stone facing.  Backing this were 170 stone
pillars.

Stone grandstands twenty feet high enclosed the field on the other three sides.
Thirty four stone towers were placed at even intervals around the perimeter,
each capped with six flagpoles.

For the 1936 rally, Speer installed 130 searchlights positioned around the
stadium, pointing straight up.  The light reached 20,000 feet and could be
seen as far away as Frankfurt (over 100 miles to the Northwest).

There were, of course, many pictures taken of the rallies.  Those that show
three huge vertically oriented Nazi flags behind the reviewing stand were
taken at the Luitpoldhain.  Those showing an enclosed field with the
reviewing stand flanked by rows of columns were taken at the Zeppelinwiese.

To get a feel for the excitement of the Nuernberg rallies I'll borrow some
quotes from William Shirer's "Berlin Diary".  Writing about the 1934
rally:

5 Sept -  I'm beginning to comprehend, I think, some of the reasons for
Hitler's astounding success.  Borrowing a chapter from the Roman church, he
is restoring pagentry and colour and mysticism to the drab lives of
twentieth-century Germans.  This morning's opening meeting in the Luitpold
Hall on the outskirts of Nuremberg was more than a gorgeous show; it also
had something of the mysticism and religious fervour of an Easter or
Christmas Mass in a great Gothic cathedral.  The hall was a sea of
brightly coloured flags.  Even Hitler's arrival was made dramatic.  The
band stopped playing.  There was a hush over the thirty thousand people
packed in the hall.  The the band struck up the 'Badenweiler March' a
very catchy tune, and used only, I'm told, when Hitler makes his big
entries.  Hitler appeared in the back of the auditorium, and followed by
his aides, goering, Goebbels, Hess, Himmler, and the others, he strode
down the long centre aisle while thirty thousand hands were raised in
salute.  An immense symphony orchestra played Beethoven's 'Egmont'
overture.  Great Klieg lights played on the stage, where Hitler sat
surrounded by a hundred party officials and officers of the army and
navy. Behind them the "blood flag" the one carried down the streets of
Munich in theill-fated putsch.  Behind this, four or five hundred S.A.
standards.  When the music was over, Rudolf Hess, Hitler's closest confidant,
rose and slowly read the names of the Nazi "martyrs" -- brown-shirts who
had been killed in the struggle for power -- a roll call of the dead, and
the thirty thousand seemed very moved.

In such an atmosphere no wonder, then, that every word dropped by Hitler
seemed like an inspired Word from on high. Man's -- or at least the
German's -- critical faculty is swept away at such moments, and
every lie pronounced is accepted as high truth itself.

More in a few minutes. . .

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:34:14 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST: Nuerenberg Pt 5

The new Congresshalle

Another project envisioned for the rally grounds was the "New Congress Halle".
The cornerstone for this enormous auditorium was laid during the 1935 rally.
Quoting from After the Battle no 2:

The nw Congress Hall was to be 670 feet wide, 870 feet ling, and 150 feet
high.  It was to be 1.3 times the length and 1.7 times the width of the Roman
Colosseum.  The cost of construction was estimated at approximately 25
million pounds.  The hall was to provide seats for 40,000 people and standing
room for 8,000.  The walls were to be decorated with 1,000 flags.  The roof
was to be supported by eighty-eight columns, each of them fifty-one feet
high; the whole project would cover 160,000 square feet. An extensive network
of railway tracks was laid around the whole site to facilitate the transportation of building materials, and an estimated 150 freight wagons were used daily
for shipment.  The Congresshalle was Hitler's favourite project and work on
it continued until the winter of 1942-43.  When work stopped, the building
was approximately half completed.  The roof, the second story, the interior
constuction, and the stage remained unfinished.

End of quote.

The Marzfield, named after Mars, god of war, was another enormous project --
but this one was never begun.  It was to have been a parade ground measuring
3400 ft by 2300 ft.  Stands were to be built around the field to hold 160,000
spectators.  Twenty four towers each 130 ft high would rise from behind the
stands.  A large processional avenue (this WAS built) ran from the Marzfeld
area.  It was a little over a mile long and 264 feet wide.  The avenue was
lined with stone steps for spectators.  Work continued on the processional
avenue until 1943.

Next ....  The area today

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:38:39 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST: Nuernberg pt 5

The area today

Much of what was built by the Nazis still remains today and is easily accessed
by anyone interested.

All of the stonework has been removed from the Luitpoldhain and it has been
turned into a park.  It still, however, retains the shape of a parade ground
and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to recreate what was, in your mind.
The Ehrenmal (war memorial) at the end of the Luitpoldhain still exists and
it's easy, armed with a picture or two from the past, to find the exact
spot Hitler stood during ceremonies there.

Perhaps the most fascinating extant structure is the Zeppelinwiese.  The
entire stadium still stands and, again, is easy to access (you can park
right in front of it).  The grounds themselves are now used as sports
fields and are fenced off from the general public.  The towers still stand,
each with the base of the flagpoles that were so evident in all the photos.
The reviewing stand also remains.  You can stand on the tribune, or speakers
platform, just as Hitler did in the 30s.  The large swastika on top of
the reviewing stand was blown off by the Allies after the war (opening
sequence of the movie "Judgement at Nuerenberg".  In 1967 the columns
were removed from the main platform.

The processional avenue also remains, although the tiers alongside are
overgrown.

Some of the area now serves as the city's fairgrounds -- something along the
line of the Oktoberfest grounds in Munich -- with beer tents, rides, etc.
(Though obviously not operating at this time of year).

The New Congress Hall remains, as well (it would take a nuclear explosion
to get rid of it).  It wasn't apparent to me if any further work had been
done on it.  At least part of it is used by the Nurnberg Symphony
Orchestra.

A few towers were built as part of the Marzfeld project, but were blown up
in 1960.

The city of Nuernberg, although it was about 90 per cent destroyed during the
war, has been rebuilt to look much as it did before the war.  Great pains
were taken to rebuild the city using the same designs and even the same
stonework, thus the appearance of Nuernberg belies the extent of the WWII
destruction.  It also provides a fascinating opportunity to compare old
photos with todays scenes and easily determine where the old pictures
were taken.

I'd like to close (yes, finally) with a personal observation.  No book, picture,
or description can truly convey the enormous size of the rally area.  In
seeing it today, one can only imagine what it must have been like, back in

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:47:27 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NOST: Nuernberg pt 6

Bear with me. . .the system logged me out and I dern near lost part 5.
Picking up again. . .

the 30s during the party congresses.  I walked away with perhaps a better
understanding of the grip that the Nazis had on the German population.
Walking around the grounds I couldn't help but be awed by the massive
size of the project and, again, could only imagine the fervor that accompanied
the pomp and cermony of the rallies.

Thanks for bearing with me through this.

                           Doug

Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:57:16 -0500
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Enterprise Green

Didn't Tom Clancy write a book on this entitled Emerald Necklace or such?
Pure fiction of course.

Ron Musco

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:05:40 -0500
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Blutfahn

Col. Donnell,

Thanks for the really interesting tour of the sites of Nurenburg.

I have a question for the list brought up by this:

What happened to the Nazi "Blood Flag" or Blutfahn (sp?).  Was it destroyed or
captured during the war?  Is it sitting in some Russian Archive or some
colletors basement?

Does anybody know what happened to this most sinister Nazi "relic"?


Max C.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:24:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: James Howard

The Associated Press is reporting that retired USAF Brigadier
General James H. Howard has died at Belleair Bluffs, Florida.  He
was 81.

In 1944, Howard was a P-51 pilot with the Ninth Air Force when he
single-handedly attacked 30 Luftwaffe aircraft that were attacking
AAF bombers.  He shot down four aircraft and damaged others before
returning to base in England.  He was awarded the Medal of Honor
for this mission, the only fighter pilot in the European Theater to
win the award.  I believe he had fought in China with the AVG
(????) and his aircraft bore a Chinese expression which for the
life of me I cannot remember.

In 1945, Howard became commander of Pinellas AAFld (now St
Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport).

Requiescat in pace.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:22:59 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SAIPAN CONTROVERSY

        Ben, I was wondering if I could also get a copy of that Smith vs Smith
controversy paper snail-mailed to me.  I'd be happy to defray any expenses
involved.  Your comments on Nimitz intrigued me, I always had a pretty
favorable impression of him as a commander.  Also, I'm dumping those Japan
posts into a textfile and reorganizing them a bit (also eliminating obvious and
embarrassing factual errors, typos, etc), I should be able to send them to you
shortly.

        Thanks in advance

        Mike Yaklich

PS My snailmail address is;

        Mike Yaklich
        229 Bettis Rd
        West Mifflin,  PA  15122

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:06:00 PST
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <WSIAKI@BLDGEDUC.LAN1.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: General - WWII Ghost Stories

I am curious if anyone has read or heard any WWII-L stories related to the
supernatural or unexplained?


Bill Wsiaki
St. Paul's College Library
wsiaki@bldgeduc.lan1.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:59:13 -600
From:    Lowell Rick Cox <lcox@AMERIS.NCSC.AMERITECH.COM>
Subject: Re: NOST: Nuernberg pt 6

>Bear with me. . .the system logged me out and I dern near lost part 5.
>Picking up again. . .
>
>the 30s during the party congresses.  I walked away with perhaps a better
>understanding of the grip that the Nazis had on the German population.
>Walking around the grounds I couldn't help but be awed by the massive
>size of the project and, again, could only imagine the fervor that accompanied
>the pomp and cermony of the rallies.
>
>Thanks for bearing with me through this.
>
>                           Doug
>
I have seen the Zeppelinwiese in a very different mode from what Doug has
described.  While I was stationed in Amberg in 1979 I heard of a big rock
concert to be held in Nuremburg (english spelling, sorry can't do umlauts),
luckily my unit wasn't scheduled to be in the field or on the border at that
time so I got tickets.

Imagine my surprise when I walked into the concert site and saw things that
I'd only seen before in pictures and film clips of the Nazi party rallies.
I can
attest to the fact that the accoustics are pretty good there.  Those bands
put out alot of noise and it sounded really good.

The highlight band was the Who.  They came on just after it got dark and
they put on the first Laser light show that I'd ever seen.  The main Lasers
were on the same location that the old Nazi eagle had been on.

All in all a really good show, but it gave me chills every time I thought of an
earlier series of events held in that location.  Good but weird.

Just my $0.02



Rick Cox    lcox@ameris.ameritech.com
Ameritech National Customer Service Center
Hoffman Estates, Illinois.

Modification of an old Cav saying; If you ain't Cav, you got over!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 14:38:37 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: HUMOR - WWII Ghost Stories

There's always the 5 torpedo bombers that went down in,...

The Bermuda Triangle.

I had read that their maps were tampered with and read that the area of
ocean in question was the Cheryl Tiegs triangle, so they, ahem,... went down.

-Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 16:04:38 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: James Howard

>From Jack McKillop:

>The Associated Press is reporting that retired USAF Brigadier
>General James H. Howard has died at Belleair Bluffs, Florida.  He
>was 81.
>
>In 1944, Howard was a P-51 pilot with the Ninth Air Force when he
>single-handedly attacked 30 Luftwaffe aircraft that were attacking
>AAF bombers.  He shot down four aircraft and damaged others before
>returning to base in England.  He was awarded the Medal of Honor
>for this mission, the only fighter pilot in the European Theater to
>win the award.  I believe he had fought in China with the AVG
>(????) and his aircraft bore a Chinese expression which for the
>life of me I cannot remember.
>
>In 1945, Howard became commander of Pinellas AAFld (now St
>Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport).
>
>Requiescat in pace.

His P-51B was named "Ding Hao", which is supposed to be the Chinese
equivalent of "Okay".  354th FG(?)

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 15:24:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: General - WWII Ghost Stories

Hello, Bill!


> I am curious if anyone has read or heard any WWII-L stories related to the
> supernatural or unexplained?

    Yes, there was some discussion about this topic some months back.
You might consult the archives.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 16:33:07 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Hitler's Uniform On Display

The role of museum's in protecting history, both good and bad is something few
of us would argue with. But are there boundaries? Are some "exhibits" so
outrageous that the sensibilities of the masses should be taken into account in
deciding whether an object should be displayed?

I for one am shocked that Hitler's party uniform (although interesting the New
York Times had a photograph of the uniform sans Hitler's Iron Cross) is on
display.

I think his uniform should be taken to Auschwitz, hung up on a nail where
millions of Jews hung their tattered cloths and burned. All personal effects of
Hitler should be taken by the state and similarly burned in public.

It's just too much for me to even think that some would be interested--and God
help those who are more than interested but downright titilated--in seeing
Hitler's "uniform." It even makes me ill to hear his "uniform" refered to as
such.

Another idea--and my pee shy bladder would quickly recover--would be allow the
decendents of as many Jews as possible to simple form a line and URINATE on this
so called "antiquity."

This exhbit has crossed the line of good taste. It should be stopped.

Just one (angry) opinion.

Chuck Weckesser

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 15:56:02 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Uniform On Display

> The role of museum's in protecting history, both good and bad is something few
> of us would argue with. But are there boundaries? Are some "exhibits" so
> outrageous that the sensibilities of the masses should be taken into account in
> deciding whether an object should be displayed?
>
> I for one am shocked that Hitler's party uniform (although interesting the New
> York Times had a photograph of the uniform sans Hitler's Iron Cross) is on
> display.
>
> I think his uniform should be taken to Auschwitz, hung up on a nail where
> millions of Jews hung their tattered cloths and burned. All personal effects of
> Hitler should be taken by the state and similarly burned in public.
>
> It's just too much for me to even think that some would be interested--and God
> help those who are more than interested but downright titilated--in seeing
> Hitler's "uniform." It even makes me ill to hear his "uniform" refered to as
> such.
>
> Another idea--and my pee shy bladder would quickly recover--would be allow the
> decendents of as many Jews as possible to simple form a line and URINATE on this
> so called "antiquity."
>
> This exhbit has crossed the line of good taste. It should be stopped.
>
> Just one (angry) opinion.
>
> Chuck Weckesser

All displays, especially museum displays, have certain functions in their
very existence... One is to teach, one is to preserve and another is to
preserve the memory and history of an artifact or what it represents.

The best way to do that is to evoke some manner of emotion, though most
displays try to do so in a positive and emotionally neutral way.

I do not object to any of Hitler's personal items being on display.  If it
evokes emotion, good.  If it evokes anger, perhaps even better.

In today's world, where history is under constant attack by all who seek to
rewrite it or -- at least -- reconsider it, everything that helps assure
the preservation of the memory and facts of what truly happened is a very
important thing.  To destroy artifacts that represent something one may
consider totally, wholly and irreversably evil will do nothing but destroy
a symbol or artifact that directly brings you to that time.

Once you start, where do you stop?  If everything that is offensive or
too difficult to handle is destroyed and not made available for viewing,
then almost all evidence of history would eventually be eradicated.

There are far worse things that can be displayed and what one person finds
extremely difficult or even impossible to bear differs greatly from that of
another person.  My family, parents, sister and all sorts of relatives,
lived under German occupation for many years.  When my mother attended the
first airshow I worked at, we had a Ju-52 on display.  She found it very
difficult to walk near that airplane and refused to go inside.  But when it
flew, and she looked _up_ to see that cross flying overhead, she nearly
lost all composure.  It was too almost too much for her.  However, the
display of other Nazi artifacts didn't phase her a bit.

By the definitions set forth here, should that Ju-52 have been sent to the
smelters because of all the negatives that it represented -- or should it
be preserved and made available so others may feel some of those same pangs
in the future and _remember_ why it's so important to not lose these
lessons?

Regardless of my personal feelings on the artifact, I say display it...
remember... and pass on the feelings of why we can't forget.

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 15:26:39 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: James Howard

You wrote:

>
>The Associated Press is reporting that retired USAF Brigadier
>General James H. Howard has died at Belleair Bluffs, Florida.  He
>was 81.
>
>In 1944, Howard was a P-51 pilot with the Ninth Air Force when he
>single-handedly attacked 30 Luftwaffe aircraft that were attacking
>AAF bombers.  He shot down four aircraft and damaged others before
>returning to base in England.  He was awarded the Medal of Honor
>for this mission, the only fighter pilot in the European Theater to
>win the award.  I believe he had fought in China with the AVG
>(????) and his aircraft bore a Chinese expression which for the
>life of me I cannot remember.
>
>In 1945, Howard became commander of Pinellas AAFld (now St
>Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport).
>
>Requiescat in pace.
>
>
The aircraft  (a p51B) was named "Ding Hao!" which translates loosly as
"Number One!".


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 17:48:49 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Uniform On Display

> > I for one am shocked that Hitler's party uniform is on
> > display. (paraphrased due to this stupid mail editor, sorry)

Where is this display located?  As a collector of 3rd Reich era
uniforms, this one is one not to miss.

> > It's just too much for me to even think that some would be interested--and God
> > help those who are more than interested but downright titilated--in seeing
> > Hitler's "uniform."

I have to admit I am more than casually interested in seeing this
uniform.  I understand that the 3rd Reich evokes tremendous emotional
energy from people who were victimized by it and others who are
sensitive to them.  I can think of few moments in human history where
a more reprehensible government ruled than during the 3rd Reich but
eradicating all evidence of its existence is not the lesson we need to
learn from this period of history.

I have collected these items for the past 20 years and have used my
collection as examples during countless lectures at schools and
libraries here and in Europe.  When you are talking to a class of ten
year olds about WW2 its as foreign to them as their text book is.  Its
just words and black and white photos.  When you can pass around a
German helmet and the kids can feel its weight and smell its musty
age, *then* history enters the realm of reality.  The only thing
better is to have a person who was there - a vet, a Holocaust
survivor, someone who speaks from experience.  All I can do is offer
my research and my collection so I do.  Its all I have to offer but I
do it because above all, this must never be allowed to happen again.
When all traces of it are gone as Chuck suggests then with what do we
counter those who would deny that the Holocaust occurred?

The revisionist/denial platform is based on refuting the mountains of
evidence that scholars have compiled  for 50 years.  If we do away
with all of that then its their word against ours.  I spend a lot of
time and energy informing young people of the horrors of that period
because it is the new generation that is susceptible to being duped by
the half truths and outright prevarications of neo-nazi and other hate
groups, especially if there is nobody to counter those arguments with
hard facts and a firm background in the subject.  I feel like I'm
preaching to the choir because you members of this list are marching
to the same drum beat.  We fight ignorance, plain and simple.  Its
been said that those who do not learn from history are doomed to
repeat it.

     I wonder how many people would come to the Kelly base library to
see my Holocaust memorial display if all it consisted of was printed
white cards that describe items that were destroyed because of what
they were?  Interestingly, the reason that collectors have to pay the
outrageous prices SS items are bringing is because it was the SS
themselves that made sure that no trace of their crimes remain to
haunt them.  The SS burned more SS uniforms than any other group.  I
know Chuck would not want to further the interests of the SS but
unwittingly that is precisely what he is urging.

> > Just one (angry) opinion.
> >
> > Chuck Weckesser

I have gone on enough.  I didn't get Chuck's original post so maybe I
am missing something.  If the uniform is being displayed at a neo-nazi
rally then I'm right there with you, Chuck, but if its simply a
historical display that puts the items in their historical perspective
then I am all for the display.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:55:47 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: HUMOR - WWII Ghost Stories

Charles Berlitz' THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 19:14:39 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 22-MAR-1945

On 22-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the III Corps begins attacks
across the Wied. The V Corps liberates the area between the Rhine and the
Wied. In the 3rd Army sector, the XII Corps finishes capturing the west
bank of the Rhine and prepares to cross the river. The 10th Armoured
Division takes Landau. The 7th Army continues to advance towards the Rhine.
The 103rd Division reaches Klingenmunster. The 14th Armoured Division
completes the capture of Steinfeld.

Eastern Front - Troops of the 3rd White Russian Front continue the
reduction of the German pocket in East Prussia. The 2nd White Russian Front
is making slow progress against fortifications about Danzig and Gdynia.

Philippines - In the XI Corps area, the 43rd Division takes Mt. Balidbiran
and mops up on Mt. Tanauan.

Iwo Jima - The 5th Marine Division continues the tortuous advance northwest
toward the sea.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:17:04 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: WANT: Artist/Cartoonist

This isn't EXACTLY related to WWII, so I'll rely on people to send back
via email.

In any case, are there any artists or cartoonists (or cariacturists) on
this list?  We've got some simple (?) artwork we'd like to do from time to
time for our displays (WWII related :-) including one T-shirt design, if an
event happened this weekend (50-50 chance).

Of course, we're looking for donated work, but we'd give you credit.  :-)

Just curious... :-)


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 19:20:50 EST
From:    Paul Gregor <PGREGOR@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Uniform On Display

I read the interesting post with regard to Hitlers uniform. A few years
back, the popular magazine Archaeology did an article concerning a recently
rediscovered bunker used by the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler near the
chancellery.  The bunker was adorned with frescoes, one of which portrayed
SS troopers shielding a German family;.  The article went on to discuss the
preservation issues facing archaeologists in Germany.  Should the remains
of an unpleasant past be destroyed? From my point of view this plays into
the hands of those that would deny the holocaust.  A public display is an
issue for debate, but I can't see destroying the uniform.

A few years ago Maplethorpe put a crucifix in a bottle of urine and labelled
the image Piss Christ. It was protected under free speech as artwork, valuable
in and of itself regardless of who it offended. I like to sit back and see who
the fors and againsts are in censorship issues, it provides insight.


                                           Just my thoughts

                                             Paul Gregor

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 20:05:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Japanese Balloons

Yesterday, Dennis Sparks asked about the Japanese balloons that were
launched against the U.S.  Dennis, I checked and found the following in
Volume VI of THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II edited by Craven and Cate,
Office of Air Force History, 1983.

Chapter 3 -- Air Defense Of The United States

Postscript:  The Japanese Balloons

Although the Japanese had failed to exploit their Pearl Harbor success by
follow-up attacks on the American mainland, they did contrive before
hostilities ended to send against the United States the first
intercontinental missiles to be employed in warfare.  The search for such a
weapon seems to have been triggered by the hope of retaliation for the
Doolittle raid on Tokyo in April I942.  After two years of experimentation,
the Japanese had developed a bomb-carrying free balloon which depended upon
prevailing winds across the Pacific to reach its target in North America.
Beginning in November I944, the Japanese launched no less than 9,000 of the
new weapons.  Large-scale manufacture of the balloons had begun in July 1944;
by the following February monthly output had reached 5,578 units; altogether,
about i6,ooo balloons were made.

There were two types: a few pilot balloons, equipped to send a radio signal,
were made of rubberized silk on the mistaken notion that this bag was a
superior container of hydrogen; a second type, designed to carry bombs or
incendiaries, had an envelope made by cementing together five layers of very
thin paper.  The resulting sphere, 33 feet (10 m) in diameter, could lift a
load of about 300 pounds (136 kg).  Ingenious devices were used to sustain
the flight of the balloon and to release the bombs.  An automatic control
device allowed hydrogen to escape as the balloon began to rise above 35,000
feet (10,668 m), and whenever it dipped below 30,000 feet (9,144 m) another
mechanism, using aneroids and a battery, activated fuzes to release sandbag
ballast.  When all the sandbags had been dropped, the bombs were released
and a demolition device destroyed the remaining gear--or so the theory ran.
The balloons, which could attain speeds as high as 200 miles per hour (322
km/h), required from three to five days to complete the crossing.

The revenge campaign began with the launching of the first balloon on 1
November 1944.  On 4 November an American vessel off southern California
salvaged the envelope of one balloon, and on 11 December the first discovery
on the mainland was made at Kalispell, Montana.  The balloons landed over
a wide area, from the Aleutians to Mexico, and from California east to
Michigan.  Military authorities confirmed about 150 recoveries.  At first it
was thought that the salvaged fragments came from weather balloons blown off
course, but by January 1945 enough bomb fragments had been identified to
convince the Army that it was dealing with a serious weapon.  As late as
March 1945, however, the War Department was still uncertain as to which of
the following might prove to be the primary purpose of the balloons:
bacteriological or chemical warfare; incendiary and antipersonnel bombing;
terrorization to produce diversion of American forces; transportation of
espionage agents; or novel purposes not yet apparent.

The very uncertainty about enemy intentions stimulated defense measures
against the new weapon.  As 1945 opened, the U.S. Army's Western Defense
Command and the U.S. Navy's Western Sea Frontier were made jointly
responsible for defense against the balloons.  A conference of interested
agencies quickly found that the stripping of west coast air defenses had left
only a skeleton structure: the sharp reduction in radars had left gaps in the
warning screen, and even AA strength was very limited.  Before reactivating
defenses, it was necessary to determine whether aircraft could destroy the
balloons.  Repeated attempts by Fourth Air Force units to track balloons
produced only two successful interceptions: a P-38 pilot from Santa Rosa Army
Air Field, California brought down one, and a P-63 pilot from Walla Walla
AAFld, Washington trailed his target from Redmond, Oregon, to Reno, Nevada,
before forcing it to earth.  Bad weather, inaccurate sightings, and the high
altitude at which the balloons traveled, all contributed to the poor record
of interceptions.  To determine if radar tracking would help, the Fourth Air
Force set up an elaborate project, but by the time the equipment for the test
was emplaced late in April 1945, the balloons had stopped coming.  Meantime,
a rigid news blackout had deprived the Japanese of all knowledge of the
results of the attack.  This secrecy produced the only fatalities of the
balloon campaign when, on 5 May 1945, six members of a picnic group were
killed by a bomb they discovered in a wooded area near Bly, Oregon.

It was fortunate that the balloons stopped coming before the tinder-dry days
of summer could provide a test of the incendiary bombs' ability to start
extensive forest fires.  If the Japanese had been able to sustain their best
launching rate of 100 balloons per day, and if they had armed the missiles
with clusters of small incendiaries, there might well have been serious
consequences in the western states.  As it was, the enemy got scant return
for his effort.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 20:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 22 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 22 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-1, Stinson Vigilant
  L-4, Piper Cub (Grasshopper)
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 fighter-bombers and a
single B-25 attack railroad traffic and railroad yards in and around
Shihkiachwang, at Chukiatsi, and from Sinsiang to Chenghsien.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 45: 76 of 78 B-29s, operating in 2
waves, blast storage dumps at Rangoon, Burma without loss.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 fighter-bombers support
Chinese ground forces near Hsipaw; 12 B-25s and 41 fighter-bombers hit
numerous targets along and immediately behind the enemy lines; troops,
supplies, and communications are attacked and 2 bridges are knocked out; 547
air supply sorties are flown to forward areas; the 71st Liaison Squadron,
Tenth Air Force [attached to 1st Liaison Group (Provisional)], moves from
Katha to Myitkyina with L-1s, L-4s, L-5s and UC-64s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 906: Air attacks in preparation for the lower Rhine River crossing
by Allied ground forces continue; 1,331 bombers and 662 fighters attack
barracks and military encampments in the Ruhr and airfields in Germany
visually; they claim 27-1-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-17 and 3 P-51s are lost:
  1. 99 of 114 B-17s hit Ahlhorn Airfield; 13 others hit the marshalling yard
at Oldenburg, a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost; 9 airmen are MIA.
Escorting are 95 of 99 P-51s.
  2. 457 B-17s are sent to hit military camps at Bottrop (36), Dorsten (74),
Barningholten (111), Westerholt (116), Feldhausen N (74) and S (39); 3 B-17s
are damaged beyond repair and 111 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA and 8 WIA. The
escort is 95 of 99 P-51s.
  3. 297 B-17s are sent to hit military camps at Hinsbeck (67), Geresheim
(73), Ratingen (75) and Mulheim (74); 114 B-17s are damaged and 3 airmen are
WIA. 48 P-51s escort; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground.
  4. 342 B-24s are dispatched to hit airfields at Kitzingen (168),
Giebelstadt (75) and Schwab Hall (82); 8 others hit Wurzburg, the secondary
target; 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA. The
escort is 138 of 153 P-51s; they claim 3-0-1 aircraft in the air and 13-0-7
on the ground.
  5. 109 of 113 B-17s hit the Rhein Main Airfield at Frankfurt; 31 B-17s are
damaged. Escorting are 56 P-51s.
  6. 6 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  7. 19 of 22 P-51s escort 19 of 22 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany; they claim 11-1-3 aircraft in the air.
  8. 2 B-17s and 31 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  9. 150 of 153 P-51s escort Fifteenth AF bombers from Italy.
  Mission 907: 9 of 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, nearly 800 A-20s, A-26s,
and B-26s bomb 9 communications centers and a marshalling yard E of the Rhine
River (plus 7 towns, flak positions, and a target of opportunity) as part of
the interdiction program to impede the movement of supplies and troops;
fighters escort the bombers, attack railroads and other assigned targets, fly
patrols and armed reconnaissance, support the US 1st and 9th Infantry
Divisions SE of Honnef and along the Wied River, cooperate with the XII Corps
as it begins crossing the Rhine River in the Mainz-Oppenheim areas and with
the XX Corps which begins an attack on Ludwigshafen. HQ 69th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group and the 10th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron arrive at
Nancy, France from the US with F-6s; HQ 474th Fighter Group moves from
Florennes, Belgium to Strassfeld, Germany; the 31st Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, Ninth AF [attached to 9th Tactical Reconnaissance Group
(Provisional)], arrives at Maastricht, the Netherlands from the US with F-6s;
the 72d Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air Force (attached to Sixth Army Group),
moves from Buhl to Sarreguemines, France with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 680+ B-17s and B-24s (with
Eighth and Fifteenth AF fighter escort) hit the Ruhland, Germany and Kralupy
and Vltava, Czechoslovakia oil refineries (some bombers on the Ruhland raid
bomb the Lauta aluminum works to the N), a railroad communications and
ordnance depot, a marshalling yard, and 2 oil refineries at Vienna, Austria,
marshalling yards at Graz, Wels, Zeltweg and Klagenfurt, Austria, and
Neratovice, Czechoslovakia, and scattered targets of opportunity;
reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort missions are also flown.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 21/22
Mar, A-20s and A-26s continue intruder raids concentrating on Po River
crossings in the E Po Valley; during the day P-47s blast rail lines, trains
and other communications targets, especially in the E Po Valley and areas to
the N. In Austria, B-25s destroy a bridge at Brixlegg, severely damage the
Steinach bridge, and hit bridge approaches at Muhlberg and the town of Matrei
am Brenner. Weather prevents successful attacks on 2 targets in N Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: On Chichi Jima Island, 13 B-24s from Guam Island bomb
Susaki Airfield. 20 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb Cebu Island.  During the
night of 22/23 Mar, 4 B-24s from Guam Island make individual raids on Susaki
Airfield.
    VII Fighter Command: 16 Iwo-based P-51s bomb and strafe a weather station
 fuel storage, and radar installations on Chichi Jima.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Cebu Island,
B-24s and A-20s (along with US Marine Corps aircraft) hit Cebu City, defenses
at several locations on Cebu, and targets on Inampulugan Island nearby. On
Luzon Island, B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and fighters continue to hit numerous
objectives, chiefly Balete Pass, Tangadon, San Fernando, and the Batangas
areas. On Formosa, other B-24s hit Tainan and Okayama Airfields, destroying
several hangars, planes, and gun positions. The 64th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Tacloban, Leyte Island to
Clark Field, Luzon with B-24s; the 69th and 100th Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), cease operating from Morotai Island
with B-25s and move to base at Puerto Princesa, Palawan Island; the 75th
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from
Sansapor, New Guinea to Puerto Princesa, Palawan with B-25s; and the 868th
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), Thirteenth AF, moves from Noemfoor Island, New
Guinea to Morotai Island with B-24s (the squadron uses airborne radar for
low-level attacks at night and for pathfinder operations).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

22/0115Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 20:15:40 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Uniform On Display

On Tue, 21 Mar 1995 19:20:50 EST Paul Gregor said:
>I read the interesting post with regard to Hitlers uniform. A few years
>back, the popular magazine Archaeology did an article concerning a recently
>rediscovered bunker used by the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler near the
>chancellery.  The bunker was adorned with frescoes, one of which portrayed
>SS troopers shielding a German family;.  The article went on to discuss the
>preservation issues facing archaeologists in Germany.  Should the remains
>of an unpleasant past be destroyed? From my point of view this plays into
>the hands of those that would deny the holocaust.  A public display is an
>issue for debate, but I can't see destroying the uniform.
>
>                                           Just my thoughts
>
>                                             Paul Gregor

   I read about that Liebenstandarte bunker thing in the Washington Post.
Unfortunately, in that case at least, I believe making it into a public
relic had considerable problems, which you can find with the preservation
of many historical places and items.  These include costs for maintenance,
personnel, pamphlets and advertising, parking, handicap access, etc.  You
get the general idea.  So in this case, we just can't say, "it must be
preserved!"  There is the realistic aspect to consider.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 20:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: James Howard

 >>From Jack McKillop:
 >
 >>The Associated Press is reporting that retired USAF Brigadier
 >>General James H. Howard has died at Belleair Bluffs, Florida.  He
 >>was 81.
 >>
 >>In 1944, Howard was a P-51 pilot with the Ninth Air Force when he
 >>single-handedly attacked 30 Luftwaffe aircraft that were attacking
 >>AAF bombers.  He shot down four aircraft and damaged others before
 >>returning to base in England.  He was awarded the Medal of Honor
 >>for this mission, the only fighter pilot in the European Theater to
 >>win the award.  I believe he had fought in China with the AVG
 >>(????) and his aircraft bore a Chinese expression which for the
 >>life of me I cannot remember.
 >>
 >>In 1945, Howard became commander of Pinellas AAFld (now St
 >>Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport).
 >>
 >>Requiescat in pace.
 >
 >His P-51B was named "Ding Hao", which is supposed to be the Chinese
 >equivalent of "Okay".  354th FG(?)
 >
 >Dennis E. Sparks
 >sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
 >Lexington, Kentucky

Dennis gets a cigar (if that is still PC!).  The mission for which
Howard won the Medal of Honor took place on 11 Jan 44.  Howard was
Commanding Officer of the 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter
Group, Ninth Air Force at Boxted, England.   On that date, the
356th, equipped with P-51Bs, escorted Eighth Air Force B-17s to hit
the aircraft factories at Oschersleben and Halberstadt.  Howard, a
former AVG pilot with 6.5 Japanese victories, shot down an Me 110
but lost contact with the rest of the group in the process.  He
found himself escorting a B-17 wing by himself; the wing was under
attack by Luftwaffe aircraft.  Howard, who was 6 foot 2 inches
(187cm) tall, was flying his P-51B named DING HAO.  He spent the
next 30 minutes chasing 30 some Luftwaffe fighters.  After two
encoutners, 2 of his 4 machine guns jammed.  During his next
attack, the third machine gun jammed.  With only one gun working,
Howard "stooged" up to the enemy aircraft suddenly and then backed
away as they broke.  He had two further encounters before he
terminated the action and returned to Boxted.  He was credited with
shooting down 4 aircraft and probably destroying or damaging 3
others.  Lieutenant Colonel Allison C Brooks, the B-17 wing leader,
said, "It was a case of one lone American against what seemed to be
the entire Luftwaffe."  Other B17 crew members called him "the
one-man Air Force."

Howard was a double ace with 12.3 aircraft credited during the war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:04:07 -0500
From:    chris garcia <moonie@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG>
Subject: Re: More on Bong

On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Chris!
>
> Thanks for the post.
>
>  If he'd had a wingman it didn't do
> > him any good.
>
>     Perhaps in that situation, but attacking a bomber formation is
> not the same thing as a dogfight with opposing fighters, where mutual
> protection is essential, and a good wingman will always stick with
> his leader.
>
>     Thanks for allowing my comment. Please let me hear yours.
>
I haven't been on this list for so many days I kindof forgot what I
wrote.  Steinhoff's book "Messerschmitt's Over Sicily", is interesting
because of two themes he shows in his experience.  He had cometo Sicly
from the eastern front, after the defeat at Stalingrad.  His faith in the
Luftwaffe leadership, except for Galland, had been badly eroded by the
mismanagement of thinsg there.  Galland had been leading fighters against
the US 8th Air Force for quitea while and had cometo show them how to
shoot down bombers.  That's what they were having so much trouble with.
It was during this time that Goering issued the order that they would
choose amoung themselves from every fighter group a man to be court
marshalled for cowardice as a result of their failureto shoot down
bombers.  Although this never cameto pass, the fact that he had given
them such an order destroyed morale amoung the fighters, and eventually
widened the rift between Galland and Goering, which eventually resulted
in a shouting match at an officers meeting where Galland stood up and,
shouting his outrage at Goering's mistreatment of the Jagdwaffe, tore off
his Knight's Cross in front of everyone and threw it at Goering.
     Reading the book it is interesting to realise that everything in
this worldf of air combat hadto be learned literaly "on the fly".  They
didn't know how to shoot down heavy bombers.  When they got the Me262's
they didn't know how to fight in a jet.  They had to figure out new
things as they went along.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:15:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Grenada Army Airfield, MS.

 >Hello all.
 >
 > I am seeking information on the Grenada Army Air Field,
 >Grenada, Mississippi and it's associated rifle range as
 >part of a DERP-FUDS study designed to determine whether
 >the site needs to be remediated due to it's use during the
 >period July 1942 through March 1945.
 >
 > I am interested in the following units stationed at the
 >GAAF:
 >    443d Base Headquarters and Air Base Squadron.
 >    63d Troop Carrier Group.
 >
 > Also would anyone happen to know what the acronym
 >HITTC stands for? I suppose the TCC is for Troop Carrier
 >Command (Paratrooper chauffeurs and glider tug pilots) but the
 >HI portion has me stumped.  Additionally, would anyone happen
 >to know which sidearms (if any) were typically carried by C-47
 >and C-60 aircrew as well as some idea of how much training
 >they actually accomplished with their sidearms (if any).
 >
 >Any and all responses are welcome.
 >
 > Mike LaForge

Mike,

Here is what I got.

The I Troop Carrier Command was activated as the Air Transport Command on
30 Apr 42 and was redesignated on 4 Jul 42.  This command was responsible
for training troop carrier wings and groups for airborne operations.  On
20 May 42, command headquarters were located in a cantonment adjacent to
Stout Field, the municipal airport at Indianapolis, Indiana.  In addition
to Stout Field, the I TCC sponsored the building of 8 new airfields, two of
which it gave up without having occuupied the, and the improviement of 3
pre-Pearl Harbor bases.  The I TCC transferred Blythe AAFld, California and
Ardmore AAFld, Oklahoma to the Second and Third Air Forces without
occupying them.  It gave Florence AAFld, South Carolina to the Third Air
Force in Mar 43.  The three old fields regularly used by the command were
Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky; Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia; and
Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina.  New fields constructed were
Bergstrom Field, Austin, Texas; Laurinburg-Maxton AAB, Maxton, North
Carolina; Alliance AAFld, Nebraska; Sedalia AABld, Knobnoster, Missouri;
and Grenada AAFld, Mississippi.

The 63d Troop Carrier Group had been activated on 1 Dec 40 at Wright
Field, Dayton, Ohio as the 63d Transport Group.  The 9th Transport Squadron
was activated at Patterson Field, Dayton, Ohio, at the same time and was the
only squadron assigned to the group for the next six months.  The 9th was
equipped with C-33s, C-34s and C-39s throught 1941.  On 17 Feb 41, HQ 63d
TCG moved to Patterson Field and on 10 May 41, the 3d Transport Squadron
at Duncan Field, San Antonio, Texas, equipped with C-33s and C-39s, was
also assigned to the group.  The group HQ moved to Brookley Field, Mobile,
Alabama on 9 Sep 41 followed by the 9th TS on 18 Sep and they began
transporting supplies, material and personnnel to the Caribbean area. The
63d was assigned to the Air Transport Command in Apr 42 and the 63d and 9th
moved to Camp Williams, Wisconsin on 24 May 42 followed by the 3d on 29
May.  By this time, they were flying C-47s and C-53s and continued to fly
these aircraft until 1944.  Two additional squadrons were assigned in Jun
42 to bring the group up to full strenth; the 6th Transport Squadron at
Camp Williams was assigned sometime in Jun and the 52d Troop Carrier
Squadron was activated at Camp Williams on 15 Jun.  On 4 Jul 44, these units
were redesignated Troop Carrier Group/Squadrons and the Air Transport Command
became the I Troop Carrier Command.

The 63d continued training and moved to Dodd Field, Texas on 18 Sep 42
where the 60th Troop Carrier Squadron was activated on 26 Oct 42.  The 60th
was activated to replace the 6th Troop Carrier Squadron which transferred
to New Guinea in the Fall of 1942 and was reassigned to the 374th Troop
Carrier Group in Nov.

Training continued at Victorville, California from 18 Nov 42 and then
Lawson Field, Georgia on 7 May 43.  The group and four squadrons moved to
Grenada AAFld, Mississippi on 3 Jun 43 and began training replacement
crews in Jul 43.  On 17 Jan 44, the 9th Troop Carrier Squadron departed
Grenada for Hawaii and was reassigned to the Seventh Air Force on 3 Feb
44. Two days later, on 19 Jan 44, the 63d and the 3d, 52d and 60th
squadrons moved from Grenada to Sedalis AAFld, Missouri where all three
units were disbanded on 14 Apr 44.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:54:08 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: <No subject given>

        I've got questions on three subjects for anyone out there who can
enlighten me on them.

1.  Has anyone heard of the Bachstelze and it's usage.  Apparently it was
a rarely used kite like apparatus with a platform towed behind a U-boat.
An observer would be up on the platform looking for targets!  From what
little I have read it was used only in the South Atlantic.

2.  I have come across mention of a British naval installation known as
Base T or Port T in the Southern Maldives.  Apparently it was so top
secret and well hidden the Japanese never learned of it's existance.
With all the havoc they reaped in the Indian Ocean I am curious if there
was a special reason for the security apart from the obvious advantage of
simply having a safe port.  Any history of its use would interest me.

3.  I have read a short account of the USS Antares, a repair ship that
spotted a Japanese midget submarine trying to follow it into Pearl
through the anti-sub nets on the morning of Dec. 07.  It was apparently
sunk at 6:45 AM by the USS Ward.  As  the first bombs dropped at 7:55
does  anyone know if the account is accurate.  Can you then explain the
sinking as the US was not yet at war.  I would think that a sub
attempting to enter Pearl would itself been seen as a hostile act and
perhaps this was reason enough.  If this is the case was there a delay in
reporting the incident?  I do not want to prompt Pearl Harbor
conspiracy theories and do not subscribe to them but if
this is a true account it would be interesting to know what happened.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone out there can give me.
Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:57:53 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: JAMES HOWARD

Sorry, Steve, but when I was in China, "Ding Hao" meant "very good," and "Ding
Ding Hao" meant "very, very good." Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:57:57 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: HITLER'S UNIFORM O

Sorry, but it wasn't Maplethorpe who photographed the cross in a test tube of
urine, but another "noteworthy" artist, whose name escapes me at this moment,
and probably just as well. I probably should have written "artist," with
quotes, as well. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:57:02 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mountbatten Pink

Doug Donnell wrote:

> Hey, maybe the movie "Operation Petticoat" wasn't all wrong :-)

Arrgh. Yeah, it was, on many levels. :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:57:47 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wahoo War Reports

Thomas Wildenberg wrote:

>For those of you interested in same the War Patrol for Wahoo (First >-Sixth
Patrols Aug 42/Aug 43) can be found in fiche # 1146-1148, >microfilm series
M1752.

Thanks very much.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 23:06:55 -0500
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@UMD5.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Kelvin Brent Luther wrote:

> 3.  I have read a short account of the USS Antares, a repair ship that
> spotted a Japanese midget submarine trying to follow it into Pearl
> through the anti-sub nets on the morning of Dec. 07.  It was apparently
> sunk at 6:45 AM by the USS Ward.  As  the first bombs dropped at 7:55
> does  anyone know if the account is accurate.  Can you then explain the
> sinking as the US was not yet at war.  I would think that a sub
> attempting to enter Pearl would itself been seen as a hostile act and
> perhaps this was reason enough.  If this is the case was there a delay in
> reporting the incident?  I do not want to prompt Pearl Harbor
> conspiracy theories and do not subscribe to them but if
> this is a true account it would be interesting to know what happened.

It is generally considered a bad idea to try to enter a US Navy Port,
unauthorized, at night, in a submerged submarine.  If you were to try such a
stunt today you might find your boat depth-charged, or worse.  Whether
there is a war declared or not is immaterial.

The Ward did report the attack on the midget sub to the Base Officer
on duty and I believe the report was passed on, perhaps even to Adm.
Kimmel.  The problem was that everyone had 'war jitters' and reports of
enemy subs occured frequently.  I think other USN ships had depth-charged
what they though were unidentified subs in the Hawaiian Islands previous
to December 7th.  Also, just because one midget sub tried to sneak into
the harbor in the middle of the night does not mean that a suprise air
attack is going to happen within hours!

By the way, the Ward was crewed by Naval Reservists from St. Paul,
Minnesota.  The former crewmen of the Ward formed a club called the
'first shot club' after the war and I think that the 5" gun that fired
the first US shots in WWII sits someplace near the State Capitol Building
in ST. Paul.

The best source on events leading up to and including Pearl Harbor is "At
Dawn We Slept" by Gordon Prange.

Chuck
chuckm@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Mar 1995 to 21 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 21 Mar 1995 to 22 Mar 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 28 messages totalling 1119 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Hitler's Uniform On Display
  2. No Subject
  3. midget sub at Pearl Harbor
  4. Bachstelze and another question...
  5. PS on midget sub at Pearl Harbor
  6. INF: USN Chronology 03-22-95
  7. General James H. Howard
  8. Glacier Girl Photographs
  9. NEWS: Wuerzburg's Residenz
 10. Oops
 11. Victoire Intellectuelle
 12. Russian Mechanized Corps in 1941 (2)
 13. Operation Petticoat (2)
 14. Re[2]: Hitler's Uniform On Display
 15. Naval Fraternity Wild Sea Horses??
 16. HITLER'S UNIFORM O
 17. ADMIN: HITLER'S UNIFORM (2)
 18. General - WWII Ghost Stories
 19. Japan, China, and Manchuria posts
 20. Jap Atroc & R U an American
 21. MEDIA: VJ Day
 22. Ding Hao!
 23. [INF] USAAF 23 MAR 45
 24. INF: 50 Years Ago - 23-MAR-1945
 25. Chechniya in World War II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 01:03:31 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Uniform On Display

Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> This exhbit has crossed the line of good taste. It should be stopped.

Whose good taste? The problem with kind of limitation to a historical display
you are suggesting is that it assumes some objective definition of "good
taste" is possible or desirable, and I don't think it is either. To a
holocaust revisionist, the flowers placed at the crematorium in the Auschwitz
museum to honor the victims no doubt are not in "good taste."

I also would argue that for all those who may be titillated by the display,
there are many more who will see it for what it is. My husband's family in
Poland, the eldest of whom spent most of the war in forced labor camps, still
live near Auschwitz and still give money to museum regularly, despite the
horrors it recalls for them. They don't want anyone ever to forget, and I
think the best way to ensure we don't forget is to put the whole bloody mess
right out there on display.

Including Hitler's uniform.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 01:03:35 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Subject

Kelvin Luther wrote:

> 1.  Has anyone heard of the Bachstelze and it's usage.  Apparently > it was
a rarely used kite like apparatus with a platform towed >behind a U-boat. An
observer would be up on the platform looking >for targets!  From what little
I have read it was used only in the >South Atlantic.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be the person on the kite if the boat had to
dive suddenly. (Yikes!) I seem to have a vague recollection of having read
something about this, but the only source I can put my hands on at the moment
is *World War II: Strange and Fascinating Facts* by McCombs and Worth, which
describes it pretty much the same way you did. None of the rest of my usual
sources mentions it at all. Of all the cockemamie things they tried, this one
pretty much takes the cake. One of the advantages of being in a U-boat, after
all, is that it's hard to see a conning tower at any range; but you put up a
kite big enough to hold a sailor and you've blown that. I guess it's a measure
 of how badly the U-boat arm needed air reconnaissance, which they clearly
weren't going to get from Goering.

If you gather any other information about this, I hope you'll share it. My
info on South Atlantic submarine operations is fairly sparse, and I'd
appreciate any leads you can offer.

> 3.  I have read a short account of the USS Antares, a repair ship >that
spotted a Japanese midget submarine trying to follow it into >Pearl through
the anti-sub nets on the morning of Dec. 07.  It was >apparently sunk at 6:45
AM by the USS Ward.

Morison, in *The Two-Ocean War* (and doubtless in *History of United States
Naval Operations in World War II* as well, though that's not right in front
of me at the moment), writes about this incident. He doesn't mention the
*Antares* but says that the USS *Condor* sighted a midget sub and passed the
word to *Ward*, which later sank what was believed to be the same midget at
6:45 a.m. after it had been sighted again by a Catalina on patrol. (Morison
says this was about three hours after the first sighting by the *Condor*.) A
PBY later sank another midget sub near the entrance to the harbor. Others
probably can provide you with information as what state of alert the *Ward*
may have been in, with respect to with what authority she had (or didn't
have) to fire on the midget.

Cheers.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 20:31:31 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: midget sub at Pearl Harbor

I'll add to this as I concur with Chuck's reply.  The sinking of the
midget sub by the Ward and assisted by a PBY  (sea plane) was reported to
the duty officer and Admiral Kimmel.  there was confusion with the
report, as it was not clear to the duty officer if the Ward had actually
sited a submarine or just fired on a sonar contact.  By the time it was
being cleared up, and reported to the Admiral, the planes were over head.

The fleet was on alert for submarine attack and standing orders had been
issued previously that all unidentifed submarine contacts in Hawaiian
waters were to be treated as hostile and  sunk.  It was suspected that
Japanese submarines had been operating in the area.  So, it was not true
that the fleet was asleep at Pearl Harbor as some of the movies, etc.
glamorize.  The Navy was on alert, but it was protecting against a
different tactic (not an air assault).  It was because of the submarine
threat why the fleet was kept in a protective harbor where "normal" size
submarines could not penetrate (midget submarines were not known about).
A net was stretch across the harbor entrance to prevent a long shot from
a torpedo launched outside.

By coincidence today at work I was talking to two Pearl Harbor survivors
that were on a ocean going tug.  As they were leaving the harbor early
that morning (a couple of hours before the attack) these two sailors were
standing on the deck.  They saw a submarine entering the harbor, assumed
it was US, and didn't bothering reporting it to any one.  It was not
until later, much later as a couple of months ago when they were talking
about it that they realized this was one of the midget Japanese
submarines entering the harbor.  Their recollection was this was before
the Ward sank one of the subs.  So prey tell, if they had realized what
they were looking at and reported it to the OOD?...

aloha

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Chuck McCormick wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Kelvin Brent Luther wrote:
>
> > 3.  I have read a short account of the USS Antares, a repair ship that
> > spotted a Japanese midget submarine trying to follow it into Pearl
> > through the anti-sub nets on the morning of Dec. 07.  It was apparently
> > sunk at 6:45 AM by the USS Ward.  As  the first bombs dropped at 7:55
> > does  anyone know if the account is accurate.  Can you then explain the
> > sinking as the US was not yet at war.  I would think that a sub
> > attempting to enter Pearl would itself been seen as a hostile act and
> > perhaps this was reason enough.  If this is the case was there a delay in
> > reporting the incident?  I do not want to prompt Pearl Harbor
> > conspiracy theories and do not subscribe to them but if
> > this is a true account it would be interesting to know what happened.
>
> It is generally considered a bad idea to try to enter a US Navy Port,
> unauthorized, at night, in a submerged submarine.  If you were to try such a
> stunt today you might find your boat depth-charged, or worse.  Whether
> there is a war declared or not is immaterial.
>
> The Ward did report the attack on the midget sub to the Base Officer
> on duty and I believe the report was passed on, perhaps even to Adm.
> Kimmel.  The problem was that everyone had 'war jitters' and reports of
> enemy subs occured frequently.  I think other USN ships had depth-charged
> what they though were unidentified subs in the Hawaiian Islands previous
> to December 7th.  Also, just because one midget sub tried to sneak into
> the harbor in the middle of the night does not mean that a suprise air
> attack is going to happen within hours!
>
> By the way, the Ward was crewed by Naval Reservists from St. Paul,
> Minnesota.  The former crewmen of the Ward formed a club called the
> 'first shot club' after the war and I think that the 5" gun that fired
> the first US shots in WWII sits someplace near the State Capitol Building
> in ST. Paul.
>
> The best source on events leading up to and including Pearl Harbor is "At
> Dawn We Slept" by Gordon Prange.
>
> Chuck
> chuckm@umd5.umd.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 07:49:54 +0200
From:    Erik Scheuermann <e.scheuermann@IKE.UNI-STUTTGART.DE>
Subject: Re: Bachstelze and another question...

Hi,

As far as I remember, the "Bachstelze" was build by Focke Achgelis and was
a non motorized Gyrocopter intended for spotter duties on submarines.
It was to be trailed by a sub using the subs speed and the wind to drive
it's rotor to generate the neccesary lift. Comunication was done via an
attached telephone line. The idea itself was quite an interresting on with
a notable bug, and that was getting rid of the Bachstelze should it spot
something. Hauling it aboard again and storeing it away took quite some time
cutting the line was easier and faster. Quite expectable that there weren't
so many ready to volunteer as spotter ;). As far as I know it saw only very
limited use, later there also was a powered marine 'copter version.
All this was written from my faulty memory, so please excuse any blatant
mistakes, my books aren't accesible at the moment.

I also have a question to throw into discussion. How did these early radar
systems react to the british Mosquito, this thing was buils mainly from
laminated wood (over a geodatic metall construction as far as I remember)
and therefore it should have had a rather small radar cross section, especialy
considering the rather crude devices back than. What about other designs?
Thanx a lot in advance for any enlightning.

                                                So long

                                                        Erik

        E.Scheuermann@ike.uni-stuttgart.de

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:02:04 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: PS on midget sub at Pearl Harbor

I meant to add to my post on the midget sub attack on Pearl
Harbor, a
much more complete account of the midget  sub attack as
well as the
entire submarine strategy against Pearl Harbor can be found
in *Advance
Force Pearl Harbor* by Burl Burlingame, Pacific Monograph
(1992).

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-22-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/22 Thu.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             LST 727, by grounding, Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 04:20:27 -0500
From:    Tripp Alyn <TRIPPALYN@IDS.NET>
Subject: General James H. Howard

I was saddened to note the passing of General Howard.  I had spoken to
him almost a year ago after learning that he was in Florida.  He had
been my cousin's squadron commander in the 356 FS of the 354th FG, the
Pioneer Group which was the first squadron of P-51s in the 9thAF and the
first Mustang Group in the ETO.  Pete Hardiman, the National President of
the P-51 ownerss assn., knew the general and provided the contact.
        For those who are interested....General Howard wrote ROAR OF THE
TIGER (940.5449 HOW) and you will find some interesting accounts of the
AVG and the 354th FG/356th FS.  BTW the Discovery channel has an aviation
hardware program named WINGS and on the segment covering the P-51 they
have some films of Ding Hao A-AJ on its takeoff roll.  They also have
some shots of the Bonnie B which was Don Beerbower's Mustang.  Don was
the top ace of the 9thAF at the time of his loss in May, 1944.  He was
on a mission to strafe a French airfield and was hit by concentrated
ground fire....he pulled up and bailed out, but he was too low and his
chute never opened...he had 15 1/2 confirmed kills.  "Buzz" Beerbower
got his nickname because he once returned from a low-level mission with
14 feet of telephone wire on his wing.  The same day Don was lost my
cousin Wallace "Bud" Emmer was also lost.  Bud had 14 confirmed kills
and ended up the 5th ranking ace in the 9th AF.  Bud was burned in the
cockpit but managed to bail out and was captured.  The cruel irony was
that he was to be repatriated in a prisoner swap and was bidding farewell
to his POW camp commander.  As he stepped from the bldg. an air raid siren
went off close to where he was standing and he collapsed into the arms of
a nearby buddy....dead of a heart attack.....the hero cousin I never
knew.....(since I was born in 1948).
But, back to General Howard.  His book is a MUST READ for all of you
fighter buffs.....and he will be missed.  Thanks for listening!
        Check six.                        Tripp Alyn

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 07:16:44 EST
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl Photographs

     The good news is that, thanks to Jeff Dingbaum, the photographs are
     now available on the net:


     FTP;

     hepnrc.hep.net   in /history/ww2/p38


     WWW;

     http://hepnrc.hep.net/ftp/history/ww2/p38/


     I haven't tried to access these yet, but then I have the original
     photos.

     Enjoy,

    Steve L. New
    NEWST@IX.NETCOM.COM
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 13:12:27 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: NEWS: Wuerzburg's Residenz

The following article appeared in today's Stars and Stripes newspaper

Preserving Wuerzburg's Residenz by JP Barham, Wuerzburg Bureau

Although it has been 50 years since British bombers all but leveled the river
community of Wuertzburg, Germany, local residents still remember fondly an
American officer who worked diligently to save one of the city's greatest
landmarks.

On March 16, 1945, some 260 British bombers began dropping 200, 500kg
bombs and nearly 380,000 stick-type fire bombs containing an early form of
napalm on the city.

Somehow the city's Residenz -- the palace built for Wuerzburg's prince-
bishops in the 18th century -- escaped major bombing damage during the
air raid.  But the inner wooden structure of the roof lay in ashes as
temperatures from the fires within the inner city reached about 2000
degrees Centigrade.

Less than one month later, members of the 45th Inf Div crossed the Main
River using pontoon brideges and secured the area.  And shortly after that,
1st Lt John D. Skilton Jr arrived.

Skilton, an art historian before and after the war was an aide to an Army
"art preservation officer."  He was sent to Wuerzburg with orders to save what
was left of art treasures in and around the city.

Skilton was a curator at the National Gallery of Art in Washington before
being drafted in 1943.  In 1944, he was transferred to England and
eventually was assigned to Wuerzburg on June 18, some six weeks after the
war ended.

With bad weather threatening permanent damage from moisture to paintings,
tapestries, statues, furniture, and other art treasures that had been shielded
from the fire by the stone walls and floors inside the multistory structure,
Skilton decided it was essential to repair the Residenz's roof.

He was particularly concerned about the fragile plaster dome that covered the
entrance hall and grand staircase of the Residenz.  The dome was decorated
by a fresco by Giovanni Battista Tiepolo that was the largest of its kind
in Europe.

With wood and building staples in short supply, Skilton had to forage for
raw materials throughout Germany.  Tar paper was found in Bamberg.  Cement
came from Karlstadt and the 10 trucks to pick it up were appropriated from an
Army supply company.

Skilton also struck a deal with the United Service Organization to help his
cause.  He arranged permission for the USO to put on a show starring Ingrid
Bergman on the Residenz's square, with the understanding that it would fill
the bomb craters in the square and that the lumber used to build the stage
would be given to Skilton when the show was over.  The result was a
temporary roof that  kept the weather away until something permanent was
built.

Throughout his stay in Wuerzburg, Skilton worked dilignely to save any
piece of art or part of the Residenz that could be found.  Before he left,
parts of the Residenz also became protected storage areas for art treasures
found in outlying towns.

Skilton remained in Wuerzburg for four months before being reassigned.  He
returned to Wuerzburg in 1976 and again in 1981 to celebrate his birthday.

For his efforts, Skilton was honored by city officials and given its highest
award.  During his return in 1976 Skilton was recognized as a "World citizen
in the World of Art" by the art league in Wuerzburg.

As a tribute, a color sketch of Skilton in his Army uniform hangs in one of
the halls of the Residenz. A brass plaque engraved with "John D. Skilton, Jr,
U.S. Army Officer" accompanies the portrait surrounded by large photos
showing the reconstruction and restoration of the Residenz. The honor makes
him part of the city's history.

Skilton died on Jan 30, 1991, at age 82.  Not much else is known about the
soldier who saved the Residenz and its art treasures.  Local historical
files and memorabilia from the era say little more about the man.

But city residents and those who come to visit the Residenz will be able
to see and long appreciate the physical reminder of his work.

                       Doug

Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 14:02:21 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Oops

I was trying to type Nuernberg stuff in between doing business yesterday
(work has a nasty habit of getting in the way), and made two part fives
of my Nuernberg info/observations.  Oh well. . . .   Just call them
parts 5a and 5b.
                               Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 08:48:48 -0400
From:    Sam Lashlee <salashlee@VAXSAR.VASSAR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Victoire Intellectuelle

I tried to send this message to COL Donnell, DOug, but just received word
that the message bounced.  Sorry for having to putting this out to all...



Thanks for responding.  Please, post more info if you have it.


>I'll post some more info on WWII-L if you're
>interested.  The folks on the list will probably give you as much as you
>can possibly use.

ON the Internet, I have found the following...

I subscribe to two different Lists.  I have found that there is more info
there then in any books that I have ever found.  I have actually found a
cousin of mine who lives about 5 miles from me.

The first list is Roots-L.  The address for posting queries is:
ROOTS-L@VM1.NoDak.EDU

The address for subscribing is:
LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu

The command for subscribing is:
SUB ROOTS-L Firstname Lastname


Another list I am on is PIE (Pursuing Italians Electronically)
The address for posting queries there is:
pie@jsoft.com

the address for subscribing is:
listproc@jsoft.com

The command for subscribing is:
subscribe PIE <email address>

I also suggest the following command:
set pie mail digest

I just found out about these places this morning, so I have not had a chance
to test them out:
These are address for Genealogy On-Line

        Information     info@genealogy.emcee.com
        FTP             genealogy.emcee.com
        Telnet          login as guest; genealogy.emcee.com
        WWW             http://genealogy.emcee.com/


>You made the comment that you're interested in your family's history.  I
>was wondering if you might give me some info on genealogy resources on
>the internet.  I've done some digging into my family tree in the past,
>but have exhausted most of the "easy" resources and need to delve a little
>deeper.

I hope you can use some of what I have given you.  I will forward you more
sites on the World Wide Web that I have found useful, if you want me to.

Thanks again for responding to my query.

Sam

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:38:00 +0100
From:    Tobias van Gent <T.van.Gent@KIM.NL>
Subject: Russian Mechanized Corps in 1941

My name is Tobias van Gent. I'm lecturing military history
at the Dutch Naval Academy.

Currently I'm writing an article on the Russian Mechanized Corps
during operation 'Barbarossa'. My sources are an article from
'Military Affairs' (1983) and some of the well known books on
Barbarossa like Erickson ('The Road to Stalingrad'), Fugate
('Operation Barbarossa') and Poirier and Conner ('The Red Army
order of battle').

Does anyome know additional sources on the Russian Mechanized Corps
or does anyone have information on the organization, strenght and
combatactions of the Russian tankforces in 1941?

I would appreciate your help,

Tobias van Gent
T.van.Gent@KIM.NL

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 07:34:38 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Operation Petticoat

I remember that one. Liked the part about the pig...

Reminds me of my Mother-in-Law:-)
                                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:25:35 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Operation Petticoat

>I remember that one. Liked the part about the pig...
>
>Reminds me of my Mother-in-Law:-)
>                                                        Steve


Steve - I have been married for only 6 months and am just curious if making
mother-in-law cracks in a public forum come easier with time or are you
just a bolder man than I  ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 08:41:46 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: Hitler's Uniform On Display

There was a Hitler flying suit on display at a small museum in Union, IL
several years back.  It was captured by an American vet and was deemed
authentic.  This was in the 85-88 time frame.  We used to do a
reenactment up there once a year on memorial day until the museum got
stingy and people got mad at them with the type of food they were
serving us.

The Museum is Called 7 Acres and is located just outside Union, IL which
is 45 minutes to an hour west of Chicago--in between Chicago and
Rockford.  I have not heard if it is still there.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 10:13:00 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Naval Fraternity Wild Sea Horses??

Has any one on this list heard of the Wild Sea Horses, a naval fraternity
that was active in Norfolk VA area durring WWII?

I have a copy of their charter, by-laws and roster from Aug 1, 1941.  I can
post whatever info the group list would like to see.
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 07:58:30 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: HITLER'S UNIFORM O

        Maplethorpe's works consisted of bullwhips up people's rectums
and that sort.  Andreas Serano was the esteemed artist who created "Piss
Christ".  As I recall, the issue wasn't really free speech rather it was
taxpayer funded art via NEA grants.  Now that I've gotten really off the
subject of World War II.

pchuck@u.washington.edu
Patrick Charles

On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Ben Frank wrote:

> Sorry, but it wasn't Maplethorpe who photographed the cross in a test tube of
> urine, but another "noteworthy" artist, whose name escapes me at this moment,
> and probably just as well. I probably should have written "artist," with
> quotes, as well. Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:30:38 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: HITLER'S UNIFORM

        Please keep messages pertinent to WWII.  Discussing Maplethorpe
and others is not germaine and will lead to removal from the list.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:45:24 EST
From:    Richard King <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: General - WWII Ghost Stories

Bill Wsiaki:

Last year there was considerable discussion and lots of fun
in recounting ghost stories and other strange WWII related
paranormal experiences. Try searching the archives with the
term GHOST and GHOSTS; also URBAN LEGENDS.

In an aside, I recently used WWII-L to answer a reference
question by a student who wanted to do research on the
Philadelphia Experiment. The terms Philadelphia Experiment
pulled up a dozen really good postings that explained
everything about this bit of folklore. Our library had
nothing about it otherwise.

Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)
Reference Librarian
Vincennes (IN) Univ.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:02:11 GMT
From:    Dan Wilson <DWILSON3@EMAIL.USPS.GOV>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: HITLER'S UNIFORM

     Thank you.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: ADMIN: HITLER'S UNIFORM
Author:  _WWII-L (SMTP.WWIIL) at SSWGATE
Date:    03/22/95 10:37 AM


        Please keep messages pertinent to WWII.  Discussing Maplethorpe
and others is not germaine and will lead to removal from the list.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 12:19:10 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Japan, China, and Manchuria posts

        First, my quick apologies to the list, I accidentally posted a message
I thought I was sending to Ben Frank.  Also, in crediting the information I
asked for and got on Japanese naval radar I somehow turned Jim O'Neil into Jim
O'Brien.  Just got back from a three-day getaway, I suppose (to paraphrase Mose
Allison's song) "my mind was on vacation, but my mouth (fingers) were working
overtime."
        Anyway, I'm in the process of doing what I should have done in the
first place, i.e., converting my posts into text files so that I could organize
and proofread them.  Anyone out there who is interested in getting the
cleaned-up final versions (into which I plan to also insert a little more
detail in some areas), please notify me by e-mail off the list and I'll send it
to you chapter by chapter as I finish them.  If anybody found them entertaining
when I originally typed them I'd encourage you to get the final version with
all my embarrassing boo-boos, typos, and awkward language removed, and a more
coherent organization imposed.  My e-mail address is "mfy@vms.cis.pitt.edu"

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 13:45:14 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jap Atroc & R U an American

Douglas S. Bohannon says:
<It's our people whom are taking away the honor and respect of our veterans
by allowing foreign governments to influence the treatment of out history.>

It should be "Its [no apostrophe] our people who are taking away [do you mean
"losing"?] . . .treatment of our [I suppose "out" was a typo].

Historically, what is the relationship between literacy and the ability to
conduct large scale military operations?

********************************************************
This message is in response to comments from dbolles@aol.com  .

By pointing out spelling and syntax errors I made in my previous message, I
get the impression that you have no concern about the issues involved.

The United Nations and other foreign government involvement in influencing
the rewriting of our history and in determining our domestic and foreign
policy are a serious threat to the American people. Promotion of the UN's
goal of a One World Government is being supported by American economic and
plotical leadership.

I do not support this New World Order movement and, in an attempt to slow it,
I participate in events that support our Constitution and Bill of Rights. I
write letters to my congressmen and I tell everyone I know to read about the
United Nations, Council of Foreign Relations, and the New World Order.

Every country in the world, except the United States, puts its domestic
interest first. This includes the UN which is, in essence, a foreign
government inside the United States.

I want my children to grow up with the same freedoms and rights that I have
and that includes their right to read about and appreciate the great history
of the United States of America. I even support your right to correct
spelling and syntax.

The thousands of American who fought and died fighting the Japanese in WW II,
fought for America. Their success in defeating Japan at all costs is a
tribute to their dedication to the preservation of the United States of
America.

To allow a corrupt president and globalist congressmen to corrupt our history
is a crime.

There are high level attempts to put "re-written" politically correct (ie.
politically corrupt) history books in our public schools throughout the nation
. This must be stopped.

If we, the American people, do not work and fight for our freedom and our
heritage, we will lose both.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 16:08:39 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: VJ Day

There are was a thread in an AP article that a planned  Pearl Harbor
ceremony marking the Japanese surrender were scaled back to avoid
embarrasing Prime Minister Murayama.  I was wondering if any of our list
members out in that neck of the woods (Jim Adams perhaps) could verify this
statement.  TIA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 16:29:25 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russian Mechanized Corps in 1941

Tobias,

     WWII-L's own John Lundstrom -- more famed now for his
definitive FIRST TEAM accounts of the naval air battles of
the South Pacific -- wrote a couple of excellent articles on
this in the old wargaming magazine, PANZERFAUST.  I haven't
dug that out, and -- knowing John -- he may be hesitant to offer
that as a source out of modesty or the wariness that there may
be more recent/accurate sources available now.

     One basic source is I.E. Krupchenko's SOVIETSKII
TANKOVIYE VOISKA (MOCKBA:  Voenizdat, 1973), p. 13.  After the
purge of M.M. Tukhachesvki and the more progressive half of the
Red Army officer corps in the late 1930s, there were various
reorganizations.  Stalinist hacks got T.'s mechanized corps
disbanded, with the tanks reapportioned to infantry and cavalry
units.  However, with the overrunning of France -- and assorted
other countries  :-)  -- by the Panzer juggernaut, mobile/
mechanized warfare was miraculously "rediscovered" by the Soviets.
Zhukov's own demonstration of the power of tank-led spearheads,
against the Japanese in the East, was also convincing.

     So, in June 1940 came the final pre-war TO&E of the "new"
"mechanized" corps.  I don't have the auxilliary equipment
specs, but in each mechanized corps there were to be two tank
divisions, containing 375 tanks, each:  63 KVs, 210 T-34s, and
102 T-26s and BTs).  The motorized (rifle/infantry) division
was to have 275 "light" tanks, presumably T-26s.  The total
Krupchenko gives is 1031 (which doesn't add up.  :-)  )

     30 such corps were ordered up, but since the total Soviet
tank park in 1941 is estimated to have been 22,500 tanks --
Hitler invaded with only 3,500! -- the corps were deficient in
tank strength from the outset.  They were even more seriously
deficient in the auxilliary equipment:  trucks, prime movers,
motorcycles, etc.  (Krupchenko gives percentages.)

     For example, on p. 53 of PERVIYE DNI BOINI, L.M. Sandalov
shows the 14. Mech. Corps (attached to 4. Combined Arms Army)
as having a total of 478 light (T-26 and/or BT-5s and -7s)
tanks:  235 in the 22. TankDiv up on the border, 189 in the
30. TD back at Pruzhani, and 54 in the 205. Motorized Div even
further back at Bereza-Kartuzskaya.

     Another example:  D.D. Lelyushenko's 21. Mech. Corps
(attached to the 22. Army in the Reserve Echelon near Velikiye
Luki) had only 96 T-26s and BTs when it sallied forth.

     On p. 22, K. says the best-equipped corps were the 1.,
2., 3., 4., 6., and 8.  It is odd that he would leave out the
7., which was the "model" unit stationed in/around Moscow and
boasted the 1. Moscow Motorized Rifle Division (commanded by
Kreiser) which rushed out to delay the Germans at the Borisov
crossing of the Berezina River (ENE of Minsk).

     Also, the performance of the 1. MC is unremarkable and,
unlike the Reserve Echelon 22., did little to staunch von Manstein's
Dvinsk bridgehead -- which leads me to think its strength was
wanting.

     To be sure, the MechCorps' strengths varied wildly, and
only 25 of them were deployed and/or committed as corps in the
West.

     However, in the final analysis, it is important to remember
that the Soviets lacked the *sustained* mobility of the German
units.  Tracked (or even just wheeled) vehicles of *all* kinds
were essential to the "deep battle" operations envisioned by
Tukhachevski and implemented by Guderian & Friends.  Operationally,
the early Sov mechcorps were hardly more mobile than their rifle
corps, and it is one of the ironies of "Barbarossa" that the
Germans were calling *their* Panzerkorps "motorized corps" at the
time!

     See also the recent books by David Glantz and Richard Simpkins
(with John Erickson) on Soviet deep battle theories and organization.
It also sticks in my mind that there was an article on exactly this
topic in VOENNO-ISTORICHESKI ZHURNAL (MILITARY HISTORY JOURNAL,
published by the Soviet/Russian Military History Institute) some
years ago.

     Good luck, Tobias.  If you need a *wargame* as an instructional
aid, I know of a good one for you.  :-)

     John, How did I do?  :-)

Lou Coatney, Russian Front/Great Patriotic War Wargame Designer
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 16:23:57 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Ding Hao!

Ben,

I can't argue with you.  The way I heard it "Number One" was synonomous
with very good, where "Number 10" referred to very bad.

Never having been to China, I have no independent method to check this
out.

--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 20:44:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 23 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 23 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): An 8-bomber strike is called off due to
weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 28 B-24s bomb the Tsinan
railroad shops and Yellow River bridge; 5 B-25s bomb town areas, storage
facilities, and targets of opportunity at Sinsiang and Wu-yang and chiefly in
the Hsiangcheng area; 50+ fighter-bombers attack troops, horses, and river,
road, and railroad targets in N French Indochina and S and E China.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 15 P-47s support Chinese
ground forces, bomb troops, and positions at Nampongpang and Nakang; 16 P-47s
hit targets of opportunity along roads from Mong Nawng to Wan Sing and to
Kunlong, China; 11 P-47s hit quarters at Monglawng while 3 others attack
supply dumps at Laihka; 9 B-25s bomb communications routes, creating 2 road
blocks behind enemy lines. In large-scale air supply operations, 536 sorties
are flown.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 908: The Allied ground assault across the lower Rhine River begins;
1,276 bombers and 499 fighters visually attack rail targets in W and C
Germany; they claim 1-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 bombers are lost:
  1. 319 B-24s are sent to hit the Rheine Bridge (79) and the Osnabruck (80)
and Munster (142) marshalling yards; 2 others hit Hoya Airfield, a target of
opportunity; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 95 damaged; 1
airman is KIA, 3 WIA and 35 MIA. Escorting are 79 of 80 P-51s.
  2. 519 B-17s are sent to hit marshalling yards Hengstey (113), Giesecke
(91), Holzwickede (184) and the Unna yard at Dormund (38); secondary targets
hit are Meschede (19) and marshalling yards at Siegen (93) and Marburg (10);
targets of opportunity are Herdecke (10), Haliger (1) and Schwerte (10); 3
B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 178 damaged; 6 airmen are KIA, 4
WIA and 27 MIA. 82 P-51s escort.
  3. 438 B-17s are dispatched to hit marshalling yards at Coesfeld (145),
Recklinghausen (120) and Gladbeck (141); targets of opportunity are Hechfeldt
(12) and the marshalling yard at Westerholt (13); 1 B-17 is lost; 3 airmen
are WIA and 10 MIA. The escort is 71 of 79 P-51s.
  4. 125 of 131 P-51s fly a fighter sweep of the Bremen-Kassel area; they
claim 1-0-0 aircraft in the air and 0-0-1 on the ground.
  5. 71 of 84 P-51s fly a sweep for the Ninth AF.
  6. 16 P-51s escort 15 F-5s and 4 Spitfires on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany.
  7. 25 of 27 P-51s fly weather reconnaissance missions.
  Mission 909: 1 B-17, escorted by 4 P-51s, bombs Ettinghausen Airfield in a
Micro-H Mk II radar test.
  Mission 910: During the night, 9 of 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the
Netherlands and Germany; and 19 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions to Denmark.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, around 800 A-20s, A-26s
and B-26s strike 7 communications centers, a factory, and targets of
opportunity (including several flak positions); attacks on communications
centers are aimed at obstructing the movement of reinforcements to the front;
fighters escort the bombers, fly patrols and armed reconnaissance, attack
assigned ground targets, support the US III and VII Corps SE of Honnef and E
of the Wied River and the XII and XX Corps astride and on the W bank of the
Rhine River between Mainz and Worms. The 107th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Gosselies, Belgium
to Vogelsang, Germany with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 658 B-17s and B-24s, (with
fighter escort) hit oil refineries at Ruhland, Germany, and at Vienna,
Austria, marshalling yards at Budejovice, Czechoslovakia and Gmund, Sankt
Polten and Sankt Valentin, Austria, and a tank works at Sankt Valentin, plus
scattered targets of opportunity. 40+ F-5s, P-38s and P-51s fly
reconnaissance.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s attack loading
points and crossings along the Po River during the night of 22/23 Mar; P-47s
concentrate on communications and general movement in the lower Brenner area
during the day; the fighter-bombers also blast several dumps in the C Po
Valley; B-25s hit bridges, railroad fills, and bridge approaches in the
Brenner area at Matrei am Brenner, Austria and Pordenone, Salorno, San
Michele all' Adige, Vo Sinistro, Longarone, and Perca, Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: During the night of 23/24 Mar, 5 Guam Island-based
B-24s, flying single-bomber strikes, pound Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima
Island.
    VII Fighter Command: 15 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island bomb and strafe
various targets on Chichi Jima, Haha Jima, and Ani Jima Islands in the
Bonin Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s, B-25s,
A-20s, and fighters hit Visayan Island, Philippine Islands, bombing Cebu
City, hitting defenses on Cebu Island and other islands, and on Luzon
Island, bomb the Antamok mines, Balete Pass, and the Tangadon areas, along
with several other targets. B-24s also hit targets on Mindanao Island and
fighter-bombers attack Takao, Formosa. The detachment of the 421st Night
Fighter Squadron, 86th Fighter Wing, operating from Tacloban, Leyte Island
with P-61s, returns to base at San Marcelino, Luzon.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

23/0142Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 22:10:26 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 23-MAR-1945

On 23-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Operation Plunder begins; the offensive across the Rhine
north of the Ruhr by the 21st Army Group. The divisions of the Canadian 1st
Army head toward Emmerich, while the British 2nd Army crosses the Rhine
near Rees and Wesel. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the bridgehead east of
the Wied is widened by the 9th and 90th Divisions. In the 3rd Army sector,
the VIII Corps advances in the Koblenz-Boppard sector, while the XII Corps
advances in the Wallarstadten-Erfelden and Oppenheim-Worms areas. The 94th
Division enters Ludwigshafen.

Eastern Front - The 2nd White Russian Front reaches the Gulf of Danzig
between Danzig and Gdynia. The 3rd White Russian Front maintains pressure
against pockets in East Prussia. The 1st Ukraine Front continues to gain
ground in Upper Silesia.

Philippines - The 5th Air Force begins a series of attacks on the Legaspi
area in preparation for an amphibious assault there.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 19:54:01 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Chechniya in World War II

The recent uproar in Chechniya has stirred my curiosity. In 1942 the Germans
penetrated deep into the Caucasus region (I've seen a photo of German
mountain troops hoisting the Swastika over Mount Elbrus, the highest peak
in the Caucasus range).  Did they reach Chechen territory ?  My WWII atlases
indicate they never took Grozny,but did drive to within a few miles of the
city.  Did the Germans get any help from the Chechens, longstanding foes
of the Russians?  I do know that both the Chechens and their Ingush relatives
were deported from the Caucasus afterwards and not permitted to return until
Khrushchev's time. I'd like to hear from others knowledgeable about this
episode.


Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Mar 1995 to 22 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 56 messages totalling 2768 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Jap Atroc & R U an American (2)
  2. MEDIA: VJ Day (5)
  3. VE-Day
  4. V-J DAY
  5. INF: USN Chronology 03-23-95
  6. Swastikas over Elbrus? (3)
  7. ADMIN: Grammar and Spelling Critiques
  8. Fighter Aces
  9. Hitler'S Uniform
 10. Kites at sea (2)
 11. Location of Pictures and Maps (4)
 12. USS COLORADO BB45 (2)
 13. Korea: Night Fighter Squadron ? (2)
 14. Pratts
 15. Airshows
 16. <No subject given> (2)
 17. Danny Parker (2)
 18. Dudley Morton (3)
 19. USS Colorado (BB-45)
 20. USS Alabama ... its class? (3)
 21. USS Alabama (BB-60)
 22. WEAP: Battleships (2)
 23. WANT: Anyone from Phoenix?
 24. Dudley Morton redux
 25. New local museum
 26. INF: 50 Years Ago - 24-MAR-1945
 27. [INF] USAAF 24 MAR 45
 28. Opinions wanted!!
 29. MEDIA: VJ DAY
 30. General - WWII Ghost Stories
 31. KOREA: NIGHT FIGHTER S
 32. Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...
 33. VJ Day
 34. Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust (2)
 35. Questions for Jim A., re:  Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 01:12:02 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Jap Atroc & R U an American

>Douglas S. Bohannon says:
><It's our people whom are taking away the honor and respect of our veterans
>by allowing foreign governments to influence the treatment of out history.>
>
>It should be "Its [no apostrophe] our people who are taking away [do you mean
>"losing"?] . . .treatment of our [I suppose "out" was a typo].
>
>Historically, what is the relationship between literacy and the ability to
>conduct large scale military operations?
>
>********************************************************
>This message is in response to comments from dbolles@aol.com  .
>
>By pointing out spelling and syntax errors I made in my previous message, I
>get the impression that you have no concern about the issues involved.
>

Actually, Douglas, you were grammatically correct. Whoever that was "correcting" you has it
backwards: it's "it's" when it's the contraction for "it is"; and "its" when it's possessive.

--Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 22:08:42 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

Ron, I'll have to check this out better tomorrow to fully answer you.
The end of war ceremony is not a Arizona Memorial/NPS event or project.
Something may happen on the Memorial, but as an aside.  I'll check this
out with our PAO, as he has been attending the planning sessions, which
is a DOD project.  My understanding, from the side lines, is that
everything has been up in the air and plans are still being worked out.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Ron Babuka wrote:

> There are was a thread in an AP article that a planned  Pearl Harbor
> ceremony marking the Japanese surrender were scaled back to avoid
> embarrasing Prime Minister Murayama.  I was wondering if any of our list
> members out in that neck of the woods (Jim Adams perhaps) could verify this
> statement.  TIA.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ron Babuka
> Cornell University
> CIT - Information Resources
> Ithaca, New York 14850
> (607) 254-6492
>
> Fax: 607-254-6404
> http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 23:51:11 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

Jim, Ron, & Others:


Yesterday afternoon, I sat in the committee in charge of organizing the
Honolulu events for this coming August and September.  There are a
multitude of events prior to, on, and following the Honolulu activities on
September 2.  There are a few VJ events with various veteran's groups and
several end of the war commemorative events.  There was no stipulation
mentioned by the committee chairman, Adm. Kihune, about how the day or
the events are to be named.  There is a victory ball on the evening of
Sept. 2 at the Sheraton Hotel.

It was mentioned that the President intended to make several stops at
several events.  I do know that the President will attend a morning event
commerating the 50th anniversary of the end of WWII.  It is interesting
to note that the Honolulu committee received an official Australian
government brochure that states that September 2, 1995 will be
celebrated as VP DAY (Victory in the Pacific Day).

As far as I am concerned, there should be no restritcions on what any group
wants to call the day or events.  There are so many veteran's groups and
cultural groups involved in the many ceremonies that I feel there is room
for many appropriate titles (VJ included).  In the present, friendship and
mutual respect are very important.  Althought the past is important, we should
not live in the past.  Japan IS AN IMPORTANT Pacific ally today.  My
personal views are global.


Thank God the the Vietnamese do not celebrate a specific VA Day (do they?).
Oucccchhh, that hurts!


Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio



P.S.  Lets get on with the military history.  I have met a number of old
Japanese veterans over the years, and IMHO they have more respect for
Americans than we have for for ourselves.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 06:59:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: VE-Day

>From the US Air Force News Agency.



242.  V-E Day events set at Ramstein
     RAMSTEIN AB, Germany (AFNS) -- The 86th Airlift Wing here will
host Victory in Europe 50th anniversary commemorative activities May 8.
     The activities will be the only U.S.-hosted events in Germany as
part of the Department of Defense's World War II Commemoration
Program.
     Officials are planning for an interdenominational church service
and a wreath laying ceremony.
     World War II veterans interested in attending the events should
call Lieutenant Colonel Terry Taubert at Seventeenth Air Force
headquarters, 496-6233 or 06302-67-6233.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:16:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: V-J DAY

The Associated Press is reporting the White House spokesman Mike
McCUrry stated yesterday that there had never been a move by "any
part of the government that makes decisions" to banish the term
'V-J Day'."  He stated that as far as the White House is concerned,
the planning name for the event is "V-J Day, End of the War in the
Pacific, End of World War II.  It's not that big a deal, Japan has
not raised the issue with us. We're pretty low key about it."

All of this came about because the administration has used phrases
like "End of the Pacific War" instead of V-J Day and they have been
accused by Republicans and veterans groups of bowing, or even
kowtowing, to the Japanese.  White House, State Department and
Pentagon spokespersons have not used the term V-J Day whereas they
used the term V-E Day freely.

McCurry went on to say he was "not aware of any policy" that rules
out the use of V-J Day but, "There are sensitivities here. ... There
is a way in which you can address these things that match the spirit
of reconciliation that now exists between the United States and
Japan. We are not into gloating."

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 04:00:15 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-23-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/23 Fri. Aircraft of fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M. A.
           Mitscher) commence daily strikes against the enemy on
           Okinawa, Ryukyu Islands.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer HAGGARD (DD-555), by intentional ramming
              of enemy submarine I-371, Philippine Sea,
              22 d. 57' N., 132 d. 19'E.
             Submarine SEAHORSE (SS-304), by horizontal bomber,
              Ryukyu Islands area,
              26 d. 00'N., 128 d. 00'E.
             Ocean tug ZUNI (ATF-95), by grounding,
              Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
             Japanese naval vessel sunk:
              Submarine I-371, by destroyer HAGGARD (DD-555),
               Philippine Sea,
               22 d. 57'N., 132 d. 19'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:33:36 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Swastikas over Elbrus?

Jim Curry,
        I noted with interest your post mentioning a photo of Germans
raising the swastika banner over Mt Elbrus.  Do you have a source
for that?  I have a strong side interest in mountaineering and this
sounds like my kind of story.
Thanks in advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:07:19 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Grammar and Spelling Critiques

        This is a reminder that English is not the primary language of
many members of the list.  The membership is truly global and we should
be grateful that everyone can communicate well enough in English.  Even
for those with whom English is their first language, command of the
language will vary widely.  With all that said, I think people on this
list are more interested in the discussion of content rather than grammar
and spelling.  So let's extend a little tolerance in this picayune area.
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:09:05 -0800
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Fighter Aces

On a passing note, The annual meeting of the "Association of Fighter
Aces of America" will be March 31, April 1, April 2 in Mesa, Arizona.
General Chuck Horner is the featured speaker I believe.

Larry Godek
W0OGH@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 22 Mar 1995 17:23:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: Hitler'S Uniform

Right on, Bill Huber.  I agree with you much more than I do with
Chuck W (I can't remember how to spell it).  The fight to preserve the memories and to remind us of our past is getting more and more difficult.  And it should not be made even more difficult by destroying the evidence.

Keep up the good work in reminding the younger generations about their history.  It is their parents and brothers grandparents and their friends and neighbors you are talking about.  Perhaps the people you speak to will ask their parents and grandparents to tell THEIR PERSONAL STORY at the next family gathering.  Better yet, with the tape recorder or camera running.  We MUST get these stories down on paper and film and tape.

Hopefully enough people will care enough to carry on.


george.bauer@citynet.com
 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:40:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Kites at sea

Re the discussion of U-boats trailing kites for observers, here's an upside
down version of the concept.  During the 1920s and early 1930s the US Navy
built dirigibles for scouting at sea.  It experimented with suspending a man
in an observation car hung from a long cable while the dirigible floated out
of sight above the clouds.  As I recall the story, the car gyrated and swung
wildly, sickening the observer.  Experiments with stubby wings and
stabilizers didn't help.  Eventually about 1930 the navy build dirigibles
big enough to carry 4 or 5 small planes, a much better scouting idea.  Or it
would have been if both dirigibles hadn't broken up in storms.

Edward Miller e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:27:00 EST
From:    "LINTON, DENNIS R.,CPT TR" <LINTOND@PENTEMH16.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Location of Pictures and Maps

Looking for FTP sites and Directories where I can find WWII photos and maps.
 I'm looking to put together a report and I do not have a scanner.

I worked on a project that allowed me to go to Normandy for both the 49th
and 50th Anniversaries, and now have been informed that I'm going to
accompany Mr. Walt Ehlers, medal of honor winner, to the VE ceremonies in
England and Moscow.

When this is all said and done I want to put together a chronical of these
trips and all the wonderful veteran's I have had the honor of meeting and
talking to.  Any help would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:52:17 -0500
From:    Gerald Pratt <gpratt@STCCIPHUB.STCC.MASS.EDU>
Subject: USS COLORADO BB45

I am new to the WWII-L an I am a student at a local commumity college.
The course I am taking is a Networking Course.  We have selected various
topics to research.
I selected the USS Colorado battleship # BB45.  My brother served on this ship
for 18 months from 1944 to the end of the war in '45.  He told me at one time
that there were (3) three Colorado's.  I have read Mike Yaklick's articles,
"The Last Battlewagon War." (the Appendix and Part 2).
I have a few questions, if I may, to put to the subscribers of WWII-L in regards
to the USS Colorado BB45.  1)   Why three ships of the same name (my guess is
that they are one and the same)?  2)    What happened to the first two, what
was the extent of their damages?  3)    What battles were "they" in?  4)  Who's
Fleet Admiral were "they" assigned?  5) What happened to the "Last Colorado"
after the end of Worl War II?

I would appreciate any information anyone can supply. Thank you.

Gerald Pratt

Gerald Pratt
Springfield Technical Community College
One Armory Square
Springfield, Massachusetts, USA 01105
Phone (413) 781-7822

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:15:58 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Korea: Night Fighter Squadron ?

This is a Korean War question but someone into WWII aircraft or Marine
history may be able to help me.

My father, deceased, was a member of a Marine Corp night fighter squadron in
Korea, the only item I have to start research on is his squadron patch and
what he told me about it.

He said they fley F4U Corsairs modified to be night fighters off an aircraft
carrier (the Wasp?) and that the squadron was the only Corsair night fighter
squadron he was aware of.

I think he said the squadron was VMFN 113 or VMFN 114, but I am not sure.

The patch is round, 5" in diameter, with the upper half white and the lower
half black. Two 4" red lightning bolts form a "V" in the center of the patch.

I would like to know what squadron he belonged to and its history.

I welcome any response.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:13:58 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

Jim Adams writes:

"The end of war ceremony is not a Arizona Memorial/NPS event or project."


It's starting already..."the end of war ceremony" indeed.  I will be
having a VJ DAY CEREMONY!!!!!!!!!!!  I don't give a damn who I
offend;  I would rather offend some asshole politician than demean
those who died trying to defeat our enemy.

Sorry about the language, but as a veteran, and the son of a WWII
veteran, and grandson of a WWI veteran, this PC bullshit makes my
blood boil!

---

Alan Hepburn             |                                                 |
National Semiconductor   |           DON'T   TREAD   ON   ME               |
Santa Clara, Ca          |                                                 |
alan@berlioz.nsc.com     |                                                 |

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:21:08 -0800
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Jap Atroc & R U an American

You wrote:

>
>Douglas S. Bohannon says:
><It's our people whom are taking away the honor and respect of our
veterans
>by allowing foreign governments to influence the treatment of out
history.>
>
>It should be "Its [no apostrophe] our people who are taking away [do
you mean
>"losing"?] . . .treatment of our [I suppose "out" was a typo].
>
>Historically, what is the relationship between literacy and the ability
to
>conduct large scale military operations?
>
>********************************************************
>This message is in response to comments from dbolles@aol.com  .
>
>By pointing out spelling and syntax errors I made in my previous
message, I
>get the impression that you have no concern about the issues involved.
>
>The United Nations and other foreign government involvement in
influencing
>the rewriting of our history and in determining our domestic and
foreign
>policy are a serious threat to the American people. Promotion of the
UN's
>goal of a One World Government is being supported by American economic
and
>plotical leadership.
>
>I do not support this New World Order movement and, in an attempt to
slow it,
>I participate in events that support our Constitution and Bill of
Rights. I
>write letters to my congressmen and I tell everyone I know to read
about the
>United Nations, Council of Foreign Relations, and the New World Order.
>
>Every country in the world, except the United States, puts its domestic
>interest first. This includes the UN which is, in essence, a foreign
>government inside the United States.
>
>I want my children to grow up with the same freedoms and rights that I
have
>and that includes their right to read about and appreciate the great
history
>of the United States of America. I even support your right to correct
>spelling and syntax.
>
>The thousands of American who fought and died fighting the Japanese in
WW II,
>fought for America. Their success in defeating Japan at all costs is a
>tribute to their dedication to the preservation of the United States of
>America.
>
>To allow a corrupt president and globalist congressmen to corrupt our
history
>is a crime.
>
>There are high level attempts to put "re-written" politically correct
(ie.
>politically corrupt) history books in our public schools throughout the
nation
>. This must be stopped.
>
>If we, the American people, do not work and fight for our freedom and
our
>heritage, we will lose both.
>
>Doug Bohannon
>dsb77@aol.com
>
>
100% Doug.  Yes.  To many people are concerned only with food to eat and
a place to sleep.  Let the world go on by but don't bother us.  They
need to be jostled and made aware that "the gov't" is not necessarily
"for the people".  SOmebody has to hold the line and provide the
information to "wake the sheep".


Larry Godek
W0OGH@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:05:01 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pratts

Gerald,

     You didn't include your direct e-mail address, so I'll
put this back on the net.

     Are you any relation to Fletcher Pratt, of naval history,
affairs, and wargaming fame?  :-)

     Incidentally, there is a photo of Fletcher, his pretty wife
Inga, and friends on the floor of his apartment pushing toy boats
in the Nov42 issue of AMERICAN MAGAZINE.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:25:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Airshows

          NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1995
                           ISSUE 5, MARCH 23, 1995

The following is the combined schedules for the North American military
aerobatic teams for the 1995 show season and includes schedules for shows
in Canada and the United States.  All shows held prior to the date shown
above have been removed from the list.

This list is sorted by country and Province and State.  The four teams
covered in this post are:

  Canadian Armed Forces SNOWBIRDS
  U.S. Air Force THUNDERBIRDS
  U.S. Army GOLDEN KNIGHTS
  U.S. Navy BLUE ANGELS

Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated.  Please e-mail them
to me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com.

REASON FOR REISSUE:  Bart Salisbury (Prowler633@aol.com) states that the USN
Blue Angels have confirmed they will be performing at:

 1. McConnell AFB, Kansas rather than Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and
 2. Bergstrom ARS, Texas rather than Sheppard AFB Texas.

I. CANADA
---------

ALBERTA
-------
Calgary: Snowbirds, Jul 15 and 16
Grande Prairie: Snowbirds, Aug 7
Red Deer: Snowbirds, Aug 5 and 6
Slave Lake: Snowbirds, Jul 17

BRITISH COLUMBIA
----------------
Abbotsford: Snowbirds, Aug 11 thru 13
Cranbrook: Snowbirds, Jul 27
Kamloops: Snowbirds, Aug 9
Kelowna: Snowbirds, May 13 and 14
Penticton: Snowbirds, May 3
Prince George: Snowbirds, Jul 22 and 23
Prince Rupert: Snowbirds, Jul 19
Victoria: Snowbirds, Jul 29 and 30

MANITOBA
--------
Brandon: Snowbirds, May 5
Grand Beach: Snowbirds, Jul 5
Portage la Prairie: Sep 9 and 10

NEW BRUNSWICK
-------------
St John: Snowbirds, May 30
Shediac: Snowbirds, Jun 29

NEWFOUNDLAND
------------
CFB Gander: Snowbirds, Jun 18
CFB Goose Bay: Snowbirds, Jun 16

NORTHWEST TERRITORIES
---------------------
Hay River: Snowbirds, Apr 27

NOVA SCOTIA
-----------
CFB Shearwater: Snowbirds, Aug 26 and 27
Yarmouth: Snowbirds, Aug 29

ONTARIO
-------
Chapleau: Snowbirds, May 22
CFB Borden: Snowbirds, Jul 2 and 3
Grand Bend: Snowbirds, Jun 8
Hamilton: Thunderbirds, Jun 17 and 18
Leamington: Snowbirds, Jun 10
London: Snowbirds, Jun 3 and 4
Ottawa: Snowbirds, May 7, Jun 24 and 25, and Jul 1
Sault St. Marie: Snowbirds, May 20 and 21
Thunder Bay: Snowbirds, Sep 6
Toronto: Snowbirds, Sep 2 thru 4
Windsor: Snowbirds, Jun 11

PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND
--------------------
Summerside: Snowbirds, Jun 20

QUEBEC
------
Bromont: Snowbirds, Jun 6
Charlevoix: Snowbirds, Jun 27
La Tuque: Snowbirds, Aug 23
Mirabel: Snowbirds, May 27 and 28
Mont Laurier: Snowbirds, Jun 1
Quebec City: Snowbirds, Aug 19 and 20
Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, Jun 22

SASKATCHEWAN
------------
CFB Moose Jaw:
  Jul 8 and 9: Blue Angels and Snowbirds
  Oct 14: Snowbirds
Lloydminster: Snowbirds, May 11
Prince Albert: Snowbirds, Aug 2

YUKON TERRITORY
---------------
Whitehorse: Snowbirds, Jul 25



II. UNITED STATES
-----------------

ALABAMA
-------
No Shows

ALASKA
------
Juneau: Snowbirds, Apr 29 and 30

ARIZONA
-------
Luke AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 8
MCAS Yuma: Golden Knights, Feb 25
Mesa: Blue Angels, Mar 25 and 26
Page: Snowbirds, Oct 7 and 8

ARKANSAS
--------
Fort Smith: Blue Angels, May 20 and 21 and Golden Knights, May 20

CALIFORNIA
----------
Fresno: Golden Knights, Sep 23 and 24
March AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 14 and 15
MCAS El Toro: Blue Angels, Apr 28 thru 30
NAS LeMoore: Blue Angels, May 6 and 7
NAS Miramar: Blue Angels, Aug 25 thru 27
NAWS Point Mugu: Snowbirds, Sep 23 and 24
Redding: Blue Angels, Jul 1 and 2
Salinas: Thunderbirds, Sep 30 and Oct 1
San Francisco: Blue Angels, Oct 7 and 8
Travis AFB: Golden Knights, Oct 7
Vandenburg AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 9
Van Nuys: Golden Knights, Jul 15 and 16

COLORADO
--------
Durango: Thunderbirds, Jun 4
Grand Junction: Snowbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 27
Loveland: Thunderbirds, Apr 22 and 23
Peterson AFB: Snowbirds, Sep 20
USAF Academy: Thunderbirds, May 31

CONNECTICUT
-----------
No Shows

DELAWARE
--------
No Shows

FLORIDA
-------
Daytona Beach: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Nov 4 and 5
Eglin AFB; Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 1
Fort Lauderdale: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 6 and 7
Homestead AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Nov 11 and 12
MacDill AFB: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Apr 22 and 23
NAS Cecil Field: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Nov 4 and 5
NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, Nov 10 and 11
Patrick AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 2
Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, Jul 22
Sanford: Blue Angels, Apr 1 and 2

GEORGIA
-------
Athens: Golden Knights, Sep 30

HAWAII
------
NAS Barbers Point: Blue Angels, Sep 2 and 3
Schofield Barracks: Golden Knights, Aug 31 thru Sep 4

IDAHO
-----
No Shows

ILLINOIS
--------
Chicago: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 5 and 6
Scott AFB: Thunderbirds, Jul 29 and 30
Springfield: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 15 and 16

INDIANA
-------
Evansville: Golden Knights, Aug 28
North Webster: Golden Knights, Jun 17 thru 19

IOWA
----
Davenport: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jun 24 and 25
Dubuque: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 12 and 13

KANSAS
------
Liberal: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 23 and 24
McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, Jun 24 and 25

KENTUCKY
--------
Louisville: Golden Knights, Sep 2 thru 4

LOUISIANA
---------
Alexandira: Blue Angels, Sep 30 and Oct 1
Barksdale AFB: Golden Knights, Apr 9
Monroe: Golden Knights, Apr 23
NAS New Orleans: Thunderbirds, Oct 28 and 29

MAINE
-----
NAS Brunswick: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 22 and 23

MARYLAND
--------
Andrews AFB: Thunderbirds, May 20 and 21 and Golden Knights, May 19 to 21
Fort Meade: Golden Knights, May 18
Frederick: Thunderbirds, Aug 26 and 27
NAS Patuxent River: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, May 27
US Naval Academny, Anapolis: Blue Angels, May 29 and 31

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
Andover: Golden Knights, May 29
Hanscom AFB: Thunderbirds, Jun 10 and 11

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, Jul 2 thru 4
Benton Harbor: Golden Knights, May 7
Detroit: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Jun 3 and 4
Grand Rapids: Golden Knights, Jun 20
Kalmazoo: Golden Knights, Jun 10 and 11

MINNESOTA
---------
Duluth: Snowbirds, May 9
Mankato: Snowbirds, May 25

MISSISSIPPI
-----------
Keesler AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 25
NAS Meridian: Blue Angels, May 13 and 14

MISSOURI
--------
Columbia: Golden Knights (May 26 to 28) and Thunderbirds (May 27 and 28)
Kansas City: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Jul 29 and 30
Whiteman AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jun 14

MONTANA
-------
Bozeman: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 20
Malmstrom AFB: Golden Knights, Jul 8

NEBRASKA
--------
Offutt AFB: Thunderbirds, Sep 3 and 4

NEVADA
------
NAS Fallon: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Oct 14
Reno: Snowbirds, Sep 15 thru 17

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------
No Shows

NEW JERSEY
----------
No Shows

NEW MEXICO
----------
Holloman AFB: Thunderbirds, Jun 3
Roswell: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 16 and 17

NEW YORK
--------
Niagara Falls: Golden Knights, Jun 24 and 25
White Lake: Golden Knights, Jul 8 thru 10

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Ft Bragg: Golden Knights, Jul 4
MCAS Cherry Point: Blue Angels, Apr 8 and 9
Salisbury: Golden Knights, May 13 and 14

NORTH DAKOTA
------------
Fargo: Golden Knights, Aug 12 and 13
Grand Forks AFB: Thunderbirds, Jul 8
Minot AFB: Golden Knights, Jul 30

OHIO
----
Columbus: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 5 and 6
Dayton: Golden Knights, Jul 22 and 23
Toledo: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 9 and 10

OKLAHOMA
--------
Oklahoma City: Blue Angels, Jun 17 and 18

OREGON
------
Hillsboro: Blue Angels, Jul 15 and 16
Medford: Golden Knights, Aug 26 and 27

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Reading: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 19 and 20

RHODE ISLAND
------------
North Kingston: Blue Angels, Jun 10 and 11

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
Charleston AFB: Thunderbirds, Oct 8
Myrtle Beach: Golden Knights, Jun 3 and 4

SOUTH DAKOTA
------------
Ellsworth AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 9

TENNESSEE
---------
Gray: Golden Knights, Aug 21 thru 24
Knoxville: Golden Knights, Apr 29 and 30
McGhee Tyson ANGB: Thunderbirds, Apr 29 and 30
Smyrna: Blue Angels, Sep 16 and 17

TEXAS
-----
Bergstrom AFB: Blue Angels, Oct 28 and 29
Dallas: Golden Knights, Sep 16 and 17 and Sep 29 thru Oct 2
El Paso: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 21 and 22
Ft Worth: Golden Knights, Oct 7 and 8
Houston: Blue Angels, Oct 21 and 22
Midland: Snowbirds, Sep 30 and Oct 1
Randolph AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 13
Reese AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 14
San Angelo: Snowbirds, Oct 3

UTAH
----
Hill AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 19

VERMONT
-------
No Shows

VIRGINIA
--------
Ft. Eustis: Golden Knights, Aug 4
Langley AFB: Thunderbirds, Oct 7
Manassas: Golden Knights, May 23
NAS Oceana: Blue Angels, Sep 23 and 24

WASHINGTON
----------
NAS Whidbey Island: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Sep 9 and 10

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
No Shows

WISCONSIN
---------
No Shows

WYOMING
-------
Cheyenne: Thunderbirds, Jul 26

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:40:49 +0000
From:    "Gudmundur J. Helgason" <lestat@NETTERS.IS>
Subject: Re: Swastikas over Elbrus?

>
> Jim Curry,
>         I noted with interest your post mentioning a photo of Germans
> raising the swastika banner over Mt Elbrus.  Do you have a source
> for that?  I have a strong side interest in mountaineering and this
> sounds like my kind of story.
> Thanks in advance,
> Brad Coon
>

On August 12th 1942, 12 German mountaineers defeated Mt. Elbrus (5629
meters) and hoisted the Swastia there. Hitker was said to have been
anything but impressed by this sidestep and was quoted to have said that
his men should rather concentrate on fighting the Russians than playing.

A seperate story I once heard claimed that some partisians went up there
and removed the flag soon afterwards, dont know if that is true and have
no source for this, so maybe I shouldn't have written that :)

Anyway, the source for the first paragraph is a book on World war II
written by Ronald Heiferman and is copyrighted in 1973 by Octopus Books,
Ltd. I only have the Icelandic translation and it does not give the
original title.

Hope this helped some. cya around!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gudmundur J. Helgason                               e-mail: lestat@netters.is
Olduslod 41                          phone: (354)-565-5270 and (354)-565-2270
220 Hafnarfjordur
ICELAND                       ZDDDDDDDDDD Editor and maintainer of: DDDDDDDD?
                              3 http://ned.netters.is/~lestat/Islandia.html 3
                              @DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:57:53 -0500
From:    parker@SIGMA.FSEC.UCF.EDU
Subject: <No subject given>

Mr. Jewell:
I would like to post the following on your list server for
World War II,but being new to the net am not sure how it
should be done. I am sending to you in hopes that you can
either help me to post the notice or tell me how to do so.
Thanks for you help.
-D. Parker

Keywords: Bulge, Ardennes, Peiper, Malmedy Massacre, 1944

To those interested:

I am an American writer; my previous books are Battle of the
Bulge [1991] and To Win the Winter Sky [1994]). I have
recently begun work on a new project regarding Kampfgruppe
Peiper in the Ardennes Offensive of 1944. I will be attempting
to create a new account in English of the operations of Jochen
Peiper and his unit. Those familiar will know that this is the
Waffen SS unit which perpetrated the Malmedy Massacre. This is
a formidable task and I have decided to contact anyone on the
net who may have information on this story. European
historians are particularly solicited. In particular, I am
looking for anyone who has information on Gen. Wilhelm Mohnke,
the last general to have seen Hitler alive and the commander
of the 1st SS Panzer Division during the Ardennes operation.
Evidently he still lives in Barsbuttal near Hamburg. Also, I
am looking for any one with information about Jochen Peiper's
death in the summer of 1976 when he was killed by assassins
unknown near Traves, France.
  -Danny Parker [Parker@sigma.fsec.ucf.edu]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:16:43 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Danny Parker

HOly XXXX !!!!  This is THE Danny Parker?  Wargames designer
  and author?  WELCOME to WWII-L, Danny!  :-)

Do you know about CONSIM-L@UALTAVM.BITNET?  We've got a LOT of
  the old "grognards" on:  George Phillies(!), Ty Bomba (the
  editor of COMMAND MAGAZINE), John Burtt, (critic and all-
  purpose curmudgeon  :-)  ) Richard Berg, even Perry Moore, ...
  and assorted others from around the world.

Heck, *I* might even tell you about the *best* little Russian
  Front game ever designed.  :-)

Lou Coatney, Wargame Designer at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:17:23 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

Jodi-
The following account of the attack on the troop transport by
the Wahoo is from the book 'War Fish' by George Grider. Grider
was aboard the Wahoo at the time.

     "We were still near the site of the transport's sinking and
we surfaced in a sea of Japanese. They were on every piece of
flotsam, every broken stick, in lifeboats, everywhere, and as we
cruised among them, the looked at us with expressions beyond
description. There were about twenty boats of every type in the
water, from large scows down to little rowboats. The water was
so thick with enemy soldiers that it was literally impossible to
cruise through them without pushing them aside like driftwood.
These were troops we knew had been bound for New Guinea, to
fight and kill our own men, and Mush, whose overwhelming
biological hatred of the enemy we were only now beginning to
sense, looked about him with exultation at the carnage.
     Combat works its changes in men with chilling speed. It was
to be months before I or any others on the Wahoo thought to
contrast this scene with that of the previous morning, when we
had been lavishing supplies and goodwill on a handful of
wretched men in a becalmed fishing boat.
     It was during these nightmarish minutes that Lindhe, our
great procurer during the days the Wahoo was being built at Mare
Island, suffered his greatest ordeal as pharmacist's mate."

Grider goes on to expalin that a sailor was injured when a 20mm
shell was dropped while being passed from below decks.
Pharmacist's mate Lindhe had to amputate one of the sailor's
toes.

Based on what I've found so far, the question regarding evidence
of a court martial offense remains unanswered. O'Kane, Grider,
and Sterling did not seem disturbed by what happened. Maybe
someone on the list knows if an official complaint was ever made
by one or more members of the crew.

Also, if a war crime was committed it wouldn't have just been
Mortons' head on the chopping block. The crew menbers that
manned the deck gun, fired the small arms, and passsed the
ammunition, would have been guilty as well.


---------------------------
Rod Rupert
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:06:12 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Colorado (BB-45)

Hi Gerald,

I'm sorry I can't help much on the Colorado (BB-45), but I can tell you
some little things about it.

USS Colorado (BB-45) was one of the two California class battleships,
built just shortly after WWI. The other was USS California (BB-44).
They were modernized in the 20s, 30s, and early 40s, to find action
by 1944, I believe. Modernization may have included removal of the
primitive cage masts and replacement by tripod masts by early 30s.
I can't confirm this, but the catapults may have been modernized in
early 40s to adapt them for the Vought OS2U Kingfisher.
I believe both battleships were sold for scrap in July 1959, but I
can't confirm this now.

About technical details, I believe they were about 33000 tons, with
21 knots speed. I guess their armament was composed by 12 x 14 inch
guns in four turrets (like the Pennsylvania class).

About the use of the name "Colorado", it is surely true that they
were three (or more) Colorados, but surely not all of them were
battleships. For example, just see the case of the name "Hornet":
I can't recall the early Hornets, but talking about aircraft carriers,
CV-8 was the seventh Hornet, and CV-12 was the eighth. Of course, it's
not used to have two ships in commission with the same name.

Maybe some of our experts could help you with the entire history and
technical data of USS Colorado (BB-45) and the other Colorados.
Maybe Jack McKillop? Lou Coatney? Steve New?
You may also check into the byrd database (byrd.mu.wvnet.edu).
There must be a file named BB-45.TXT. I'm sorry, I have no ftp
access from here. Otherwise, I would get the file for you.

Cheers,

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:04:22 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: Swastikas over Elbrus?

Hello, Roger!
Right now I don't recall where I saw this photo (it *may* have been in
the Time-Life WWII series) but I distinctly remember seeing it.  I'll
look through my books at home and let you know if I find it.
Regards,
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us




On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Roger Coon wrote:

> Jim Curry,
>         I noted with interest your post mentioning a photo of Germans
> raising the swastika banner over Mt Elbrus.  Do you have a source
> for that?  I have a strong side interest in mountaineering and this
> sounds like my kind of story.
> Thanks in advance,
> Brad Coon
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:45:37 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Dennis Linton asked about locations of WWII photos through the internet.

There is a collection of ca. 200 WWII photos in a collection called
"Pictures of World War II" at the National Archives.  The www site is
http://gopher.nara.gov:70/Oh/inform/dc/audvis/still/ww2photo.html

In the same vicinity one can find a collection on African-Americans in
WWII, but I don't have the address.

I found both of these by exploring through the various resources available
at the National Archives site.

The Library of Congress also has some photo collections in the American
Memory Project that pertain to WWII.

The Oregon State Historical Society also has a www site that has items
from the homefront in WWII.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:19:34 EST
From:    "Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

 X-To: Jim Adams(jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu)



 Alan Hepburn wrote at Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:13:58
 > I will be having a VJ DAY CEREMONY !!!!!!!!!!!

 Alan,
      100% correct ---- I'm with you --- Well Done!  My father was a WWI
 vet, I am a 30 year + , retired USN flag waver, serving (AT SEA) during
 both WWII and Korea.  VJ DAY is established *US* history, and nothing can,
 or will, change *Historical Fact* !

 Also, a WELL DONE (BRAVO ZULU) to Jim Adams.

 "DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP"


   Carl Wernke USN (Ret)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:37:39 CST
From:    "Jesse I. Carnes" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU>
Subject: USS Alabama ... its class?

Dear All ;

Sorry 'bout the simple question, but the USS Alabama, which sits at Mobile at
the present :

What was her class known as?  Was it not the class just prior to the Iowa-
class BB's?


Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:49:20 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>There is a collection of ca. 200 WWII photos in a collection called
>"Pictures of World War II" at the National Archives.  The www site is
>http://gopher.nara.gov:70/Oh/inform/dc/audvis/still/ww2photo.html
>

I tried to hit this server several times but I got a 403 code - Access
denied or file does not exist.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:12:37 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Alabama (BB-60)

Hi Jesse, just to answer your questions:

> What was her class known as?

Class: South Dakota, four ships:

BB-57  South Dakota
BB-58  Indiana
BB-59  Massachusetts
BB-60  Alabama

> Was it not the class just prior to the Iowa-class BB's?

Yes, absolutely true. Iowa BB's were from BB-61 to BB-66. The last two
were cancelled.

Cheers!!

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:18:28 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Battleships

Well, we are on the subject now :-)

Does anyone of you have any information about the battleships with
hull numbers between BB-47 and BB-54 ? I believe they were cancelled
or scrapped, but just can't get any info on them (names, fate, etc).

Thanks in advance for your answers,

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 16:58:54 -0500
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Alabama ... its class?

On 23 Mar 95 14:37:39 CST, Jesse I. Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> asked:
> Sorry 'bout the simple question, but the USS Alabama, which sits at Mobile at
> the present :
>
> What was her class known as?  Was it not the class just prior to the Iowa-
> class BB's?

BB-60 ALABAMA (third to bear the name) was a SOUTH DAKOTA class ship.  The
IOWA class followed.  Here are the specs on the post-Washington Treaty BBs:

                         Displacement   Dimensions    Speed       Main
                        Nominal  Full     in feet     knots     Battery

BB-55 NORTH CAROLINA    35000   46500   729x108x36      27      9x16"/45
BB-56 WASHINGTON

BB-57 SOUTH DAKOTA      35000   44000   680x108x37      28      9x16"/45
BB-58 INDIANA
BB-59 MASSACHUSETTS
BB-60 ALABAMA

BB-61 IOWA              45000   59000   887x108x38      33      9x16"/50
BB-62 NEW JERSEY
BB-63 MISSOURI
BB-64 WISCONSIN
--
Peter Smith -- psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com
Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:56:56 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Carl Wernke - TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET wrote:

>  X-To: Jim Adams(jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu)
>
>
>
>  Alan Hepburn wrote at Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:13:58
>  > I will be having a VJ DAY CEREMONY !!!!!!!!!!!
>
>  Alan,
>       100% correct ---- I'm with you --- Well Done!  My father was a WWI
>  vet, I am a 30 year + , retired USN flag waver, serving (AT SEA) during
>  both WWII and Korea.  VJ DAY is established *US* history, and nothing can,
>  or will, change *Historical Fact* !
>
>  Also, a WELL DONE (BRAVO ZULU) to Jim Adams.
>
>  "DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP"
>
>
>    Carl Wernke USN (Ret)
>

Hello Carl,


Hawaii *IS* having a V-J Day.  The Arizona Memorial has always celebrated
Pearl Harbor day.  There is a two/three week "End of the War" commemoration
in which one day *IS* V-J Day.   The people over at the Arizona Memorial
maybe(?) participating but I have not heard if they are or not.     There
are many veteran's groups and civilian groups participating.


Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:17:30 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <crivera@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kites at sea

Edward Miller wrote:

> Re the discussion of U-boats trailing kites for observers, here's an upside
> down version of the concept.  During the 1920s and early 1930s the US Navy
> built dirigibles for scouting at sea.  It experimented with suspending a man
> in an observation car hung from a long cable while the dirigible floated out
> of sight above the clouds.


Hello all, what a timely discussion.  I just now, today, this moment, returned
from the USAF museum at Wright-Patterson AF Base.  One of the displays included
what appeared to be a tiny one man aircraft/copter for use by a surface U-Boat.
The small vehicle was towed behind the sub and required 17 mph mininum before
successfully operating.  It was capable of about one hundred feet.  Should the
sub or "flier" need to disengage quickly, the pilot would jettison the blades,
no mention how, and a parachute system attached to the pilot and "fuselage"
would deploy.  The pilot would then unhook from the vehicle and then float to
the surface.  Unfortunately, there was no great detail on the whole process.
In any case, I am planning to return and encourage folks who might pass near
Dayton Ohio to visit the place.  It is free of charge, open 9 to 5 7 days a
week and closes only for Xmas, Turkey Day, and New Year's Day.  If you want
additional info, I do have one of their brochures, so feel free reach me off
net and I will try to answer any questions.
Carlos R. Rivera
crivera@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:44:36 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: WANT: Anyone from Phoenix?

Another non-WWII (sorta :-) request, therefore hoping for email rather than
mailing list reply...

Is anyone on the list from or near Phoenix, AZ or been there within the
last week?  Got some questions about the Phoenix Air Races (not to mention
what our PBY has been doing out there this week (ob WWII content :-).

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:49:40 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

At 1:17 PM 3/23/95, Roddy R. Rupert wrote:
>Jodi-
>The following account of the attack on the troop transport by
>the Wahoo is from the book 'War Fish' by George Grider. Grider
>was aboard the Wahoo at the time.

[...]

>     It was during these nightmarish minutes that Lindhe, our
>great procurer during the days the Wahoo was being built at Mare
>Island, suffered his greatest ordeal as pharmacist's mate."
[..]

>Based on what I've found so far, the question regarding evidence
>of a court martial offense remains unanswered. O'Kane, Grider,
>and Sterling did not seem disturbed by what happened. Maybe
>someone on the list knows if an official complaint was ever made
>by one or more members of the crew.

I would think that using the term "nightmarish minutes" would indicate it
distrurbed Grider some.

>
>Also, if a war crime was committed it wouldn't have just been
>Mortons' head on the chopping block. The crew menbers that
>manned the deck gun, fired the small arms, and passsed the
>ammunition, would have been guilty as well.


Rod, I don't want to get into a flame war with you, but I think most people
would agree that we would have hung any German or Japanese captain who did
this.  As for the guilt of the others involved, I know in one case the
German machine gunner was hung along with the German captain who ordered
the killings of survivors, but I think most of the guilt rested with the
captain.  I don't understand why we are so uncomfortable with the fact that
an American could commit a war crime.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:55:51 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <crivera@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton redux

Re: Rod Rupert's comment about guilt and "war crimes."  I recall that only one
person, Lt. William Calley, was convicted of the My Lai operation in 1968.  My
memory fails me, but several members of his unit took part in the shooting of
civilians.  I can't recall if they claimed they were under orders, but none
were convicted, if they were tried at all.  So one wonders if the Morton crew
would be liable for such acts.
CRivera

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:12:17 -0500
From:    Max Bennett <bf677@FREENET.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: New local museum

The recently chartered "Lawrence D. Bell Aerospace Museum" is
reaching out to the e*aerospace community for startup assistance.

NASM has been contacted via "nasmarch@sivm.si.edu".

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:17:57 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 24-MAR-1945

On 24-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Operation Plunder continues with the British XII Corps
taking most of Wesel. The 15th Division crosses the Rhine north of Xanten.
A massive airborne drop occurs northeast of Wesel as 14,000 parachutists
of the British 6th Airborne Division and U.S. 17th Airborne Division land
and join up with the British 2nd Army forces. By the end of the day, the
bridgehead across the Rhine has reached a depth of 6 miles. In the U.S. 9th
Army sector, the XVI Corps begins to cross the Rhine. In the 1st Army
sector, the III and V Corps extend and reinforce their bridgeheads.

Eastern Front - Moscow announces that troops of the 3rd Ukraine Front have
advanced about 44 miles on a broad front southwest of Budapest.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 1st Cavalry Division and 11th
Airborne Division begin converging drives on Lipa in areas north and south
of Lake Taal, respectively. The 1st Cavalry Division takes Santo Tomas with
ease. Elements of the 11th Airborne Division meet strong opposition on Mt.
Macolod.

Iwo Jima - The Japanese pocket is now confined to an area 50 yards square
on the coast. General Kuribayashi is reported to be alive and holding out
in a cave, but his hiding place is never discovered.

Ryukyu Islands - Mine sweeping begins under the cover of naval and aerial
bombardment.

The Homefront
-------------
U.S. Reaffirms "Unconditional Surrender" - In the State Department's weekly
broadcast, officials emphasize that the U.S. is "definitely committed to
the policy of unconditional surrender" by both Germany and Japan and
proposes to punish "the guilty war leaders and their tools and agents."

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:18:56 -0600
From:    "C.K. Bryant" <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Danny Parker

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Heck, *I* might even tell you about the *best* little Russian
>   Front game ever designed.  :-)

Lou,

I don't suppose that would be your game ;-)

Fellow Leatherneck,

C.K.

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 19:34:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 24 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 24 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  Mosquito, deHavilland
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 34 B-24s, with an escort of
9 fighters, pound the Chenghsien locomotive park and Yellow River bridge; 30+
B-25s and 100+ fighter-bombers, operating in forces of 1 to 8 aircraft,
attack tanks, trucks, locomotives, troop concentrations, storage areas,
airstrips, bridges, gun positions, and general targets of opportunity
throughout S and E China.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 31 fighter-bombers and 9 B-25s
operating over the battlefront and behind enemy lines in C Burma pound troop
concentrations, supply areas, a truck park, and general targets of
opportunity; 9 other fighter-bombers attack targets of opportunity along
roads S of the bomb line; 504 air supply sorties are flown, landing men and
supplies at advanced bases and dropping supplies to frontline forces.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): 2,000+ transports and
gliders drop and land the British 6 Airborne and US 17th Airborne Divisions
(plus artillery, vehicles, ammunition, and other supplies) E of the Rhine
River N and NW of Wesel as the British Second and US Ninth Armies cross the
river to the NW and SE.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 911: In conjunction with the allied ground forces assault across
the lower Rhine River (Operation VARSITY) the Eighth flies bombing, supply,
and armed reconnaissance missions; during the day, 1,749 bomber sorties and
1,375 fighter sorties are flown to attack airfields visually in W and NW
Germany in the morning and afternoon and drop supplies to US and British
troops at midday; they claim 54-0-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 19 bombers and 9
fighters are lost;
  1. 175 of 179 B-17s bomb Vechta Airfield in the morning; 1 hits Rheine
Airfield, a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost; 1 airman is WIA and 9 MIA.
  2. 527 B-17s are sent to hit Steenwijk (114), Zwischenahn (74), Varel
(88), Varrelbusch (113) and Plantlunne (13) Airfields in the morning; targets
of opportunity are Wittmundhafen Airfield (13) and other (2); 1 B-17 is lost
and 2 damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 9 MIA.
  3. 294 B-17s are dispatched to hit Rheine (36), Hopsten (62), Vechtel at
Furstenau (72), Achmer (73) and Hesepe (36) Airfields in the morning; 1 other
hits a target of opportunity; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 3 B-17s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 100 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 28 MIA.
  4. All 58 B-24s hit Nordhorn Airfield without loss.
  5. The 4 forces above have 1,158 P-47s and P-51s flying area support; they
claim 53-0-2 aircraft in the air and 0-0-4 on the ground; 9 P-51s are lost (8
pilots MIA).
  6. At midday, 240 B-24s are sent to drop supplies in the US (122) and
British (118) assault areas flying at 300 to 400-feet (91 to 122 m); 14
B-24s are lost (mostly to small arms fire), 4 damaged beyond repair and 103
damaged; 5 airmen are KIA, 30 WIA and 116 MIA.
  7. 182 B-24s are sent to hit Stormede (96) and Kirtorf (65) Airfields in
the afternoon; 9 hit Ziegenhain Airfield, the secondary, and 11 hit the
Treysa marshalling yard, a target of opportunity; 16 B-24s are damaged.
  8. 114 B-17s are sent to hit Ziegenhain Airfield (104) in the afternoon; 6
others hit Siegen marshalling yard, the secondary; 2 B-17s are damaged.
  9. 152 of 153 B-17s hit Enschede Airfield at Twente; 20 B-17s are damaged.
 10. The 3 forces above are escorted by 95 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
 11. 2 B-17s and 19 of 20 P-51s fly scouting missions; 1 P-51 is lost
 12. 8 P-51s escort 4 Mosquitos that monitor operations for the bombers.
 13. 17 P-51s escort 19 aircraft on photo reconnaissance missions over
Germany.
  Mission 912: 10 of 12 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany and the Netherlands
during the night and 24 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions over Scandinavia.
  The 859th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy)
[attached to the 2641st Special Group (Provisional)] moves from Brindisi to
Rosignano, Italy with B-24s and C-47s (the squadron is flying CARPETBAGGER
missions in the MTO).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, almost 700 A-20s, A-26s,
and B-26s blast communications centers, rail bridges, flak positions, and
numerous other targets in cooperation with the combined land-airborne assault
across the Rhine River (Operation PLUNDER-VARSITY) by the British Second and
US Ninth Armies and the US XVIII Corps of the First Allied Airborne Army;
fighters attack with the bombers before the drop and carpet the landing zones
with fragmentation bombs, immobilizing numerous flak batteries; fighters
escort bombers and transports, cover the assaulting 30th and 79th Infantry
Divisions, attack troop concentrations, flak positions, supply and ammunition
dumps, airfields, defended villages, and road and rail traffic, and patrol
the perimeter of the battle sector; fighters also support US First Army
elements across the Rhine E of Remagen between Koblenz and the Sieg River as
they prepare for the breakout assault, and the US Third Army's XII Corps as
it strengthens its Rhine bridgehead E of Oppenheim and commits its armor to
push through toward the Main River. HQ 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group and
the 30th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron and 109th Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadron move from Gosselies, Belgium to Vogelsang, Germany
with F-5s and F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAFMTO: Lieutenant General John K Cannon takes command of AAFMTO, and
shortly afterwards also takes over the Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 660 B-24s and B-17s bomb a tank
factory at Berlin and airfields at Munich and Neuburg an der Donau, Germany,
plus the Budejovice, Czechoslovakia marshalling yard, and alternate targets
and targets of opportunity including airfields at Plattling and Erding,
Germany and Udine, Italy; P-38s and P-51s escort the missions against German
targets and fly reconnaissance.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 23/24
Mar, A-20s and A-26s pound marshalling yards, river crossings and other
bridges, and a variety of other targets in the Po Valley and NE Italy where
fighters and fighter-bombers during the day destroy or damage numerous rail
lines and train cars; B-25s bomb bridges or bridge approaches at Piacenza,
Chiari, Perea, Casarsa della Delizia and Palazzolo sull'Oglio, Italy and
Muhlberg and Steinach, Austria. The 85th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter
Group, moves from Fanto to Cesenatico, Italy with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 9 B-24s from Guam Island bomb the torpedo storage area
on Marcus Island in the N Pacific. 24 Angaur Island-based B-24s bomb
defensive positions and the town of Naga on Luzon Island. During the night of
24/25 Mar, 5 Guam Island-based B-24s hit the airfield and town of Okimura on
Haha Jima Island.
    VII Fighter Command: 16 Iwo-based P-51s hit air, naval, and radar
installations and targets of opportunity on Chichi Jima Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 45: 223 of 248 B-29s, from the
Mariana Islands, attack the Mitsubishi aircraft engine plant at Nagoya, Japan
during the night of 24/25 Mar; 3 other B-29s hit alternate targets; 5 B-29s
are lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s and A-20s
pound Cebu City and defenses and installations on Cebu Island. On Luzon
Island, B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and P-38s attack Balete Pass, Legaspi, the
Batangas area, and scattered targets throughout Luzon. On Formosa, B-24s hit
the harbor at Takao and power plant and alcohol factory E of Okayama. HQ 91st
Photographic Wing (Reconnaissance) moves from Mindoro Island to Clark Field,
Luzon.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

24/0032Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 19:59:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: USS COLORADO BB45

 >I am new to the WWII-L an I am a student at a local commumity college.
 >The course I am taking is a Networking Course.  We have selected various
 >topics to research.
 >I selected the USS Colorado battleship # BB45.  My brother served on this ship
 >for 18 months from 1944 to the end of the war in '45.  He told me at one time
 >that there were (3) three Colorado's.  I have read Mike Yaklick's articles,
 >"The Last Battlewagon War." (the Appendix and Part 2).
 >I have a few questions, if I may, to put to the subscribers of WWII-L in regards
 >to the USS Colorado BB45.
 >1)   Why three ships of the same name (my guess is that they are
 >one and the same)?
 >2)    What happened to the first two, what was the extent of their
 >damages?

The first Colorado was a steam screw frigate launched 19 Jun 1856
and commissioned 13 Mar 1858.  She served in the Civil War
operating off Florida and Alabama and ending up on blockade duty
off North Carolina.  She was decommissioned on 8 Jun 1875, served
as a receiving ship at the New York Navy Yard from 1876 to 1884 and
was sold on 14 Feb 1885.

The second Colorado was a Pennsylvania Class armored cruiser,
Armored Cruiser Number 7.  She was launched 25 April 1903 and
commissioned 19 Jan 1905.  She was renamed Pueblo on 9 Nov 16 so
the name Colorado could be assigned to BB-45.  During WWI, Pueblo
patrolled the S Atlantic against German raiders and then escorted
convoys to England.  Pueblo was decommissioned 22 Sep 19 and
reclassified CA-7 on 17 Jul 20.  She served as a receiving ship from
1921 to 1927, was struck 21 Feb 30 and sold for scrapping 14 Sep
31.

The third Colorado, Battleship Number 45 (BB-45), was a Colorado
Class ship that was launched 22 Mar 21 and commissioned 30 Aug 23.
During WWII she operated in the vicinity of the Fiji ISland and New
Hebrides from Nov 42 to Sep 43; provided preinvasion bombardment
and fire support for the invasions of Tarawa in Nov 43, Kwajalein
and Eniwetok, Saipan, Guam and Tinian in Jun 44, Leyte in Oct 44,
Mindoro in Dec 44, Lingayen Gulf in Jan 45 and Okinawa Mar-May 45.
Coloradro decommissioned 7 Jan 47, her name was struck in Mar 59
and she was sold on 8 Jul 59 for scrapping.

3)    What battles were "they" in?
4)  Who's >Fleet Admiral were "they" assigned?
5) What happened to the "Last Colorado" after the end of Worl War II?
 >
 >I would appreciate any information anyone can supply. Thank you.
 >
 >Gerald Pratt

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:15:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Korea: Night Fighter Squadron ?

 >This is a Korean War question but someone into WWII aircraft or Marine
 >history may be able to help me.
 >
 >My father, deceased, was a member of a Marine Corp night fighter squadron in
 >Korea, the only item I have to start research on is his squadron patch and
 >what he told me about it.
 >
 >He said they fley F4U Corsairs modified to be night fighters off an aircraft
 >carrier (the Wasp?) and that the squadron was the only Corsair night fighter
 >squadron he was aware of.
 >
 >I think he said the squadron was VMFN 113 or VMFN 114, but I am not sure.
 >
 >The patch is round, 5" in diameter, with the upper half white and the lower
 >half black. Two 4" red lightning bolts form a "V" in the center of the patch.
 >
 >I would like to know what squadron he belonged to and its history.
 >
 >I welcome any response.
 >
 >Doug Bohannon

Doug,

VMF(N)-513 is one of the F4U night fighter squadrons to operate in
Korea.  Other squadrons were VMF-214 in USS Sicily and VMF-323 in
USS Badoeng Strait.  These were joined by VMF-212, VMF-312, VMF-332
and VMJ-3.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 19:39:28 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Opinions wanted!!

Hi Everybody,

Please allow me to probe the minds of my friends and  colleagues here
on the list for a few moments and solicit comments as to the accuracy
and content of the following article.  I plan to submit it to our base
paper here at Kelly to accompany a display I plan to do in April.

Thanks for your corrections and comments

Cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

.
                    What Was The Holocaust?


Dachau, Belsen, Natzweiler, Mauthausen.  One hundred years ago
these were sleepy little Germanic towns ignored by the world as
little backwater communities but 50 years later their names would
be forever associated with the most diabolical industry ever
conceived and put in motion by the had of man.  These remote
locations were deemed appropriate for what the Nazis would call
"the Final Solution to the Jewish Question".  I refer, of course,
to what has come to be known as the Holocaust and industry is a
sadly apt description of the manner in which an entire population
of Europe was systematically murdered  for no other reason than the
religious faith they were born into.

Pogroms, attacks on Jews, were not started with the Nazis.
European history records many such horrific instances but what
makes the Final Solution so ghastly is the scale and planning that
went into Hitler's goal of exterminating the Jewish people as a
whole.  Mein Kampf, Hitler's blueprint of what Germany should be,
published in 1924 spells out in so many words that the Jews were to
be exterminated as Hitler blamed them for every ill he could recount.

With his twisted world view and his skill as an orator, Hitler
gained the support of disheartened Germans who willingly believed
the half truths and nationalistic ravings Hitler poured out in his
rallies.  "The Kaiser's Army was stabbed in the back" was Hitler's
ceaseless argument and it was just what the German people wanted to
hear.  After all, the German Army surrendered in France not Germany
and didn't Russia surrender in 1917 with the Bolshevik Revolution?
It was easy for the Germans to believe they were betrayed because
only the Kaiser's inner circle of commanding Generals knew it was
just a matter of weeks before the entire German Army collapsed
after four years of slaughter.  Hitler pinned this all on the Jews.

The Concentration camp at Dachau, surprisingly near the city of
Munich, opened in 1934 shortly after Hitler's consolidation of
power with the death of President von Hindenburg.  Dachau's first
occupants were Hitler's political rivals, Social Democrats,
Communists and other "enemies of the State".

There was a steady progression in the Nazi's path to mass murder.
It started with Germany's mental asylums.  In Aryan society there
was tremendous emphasis placed on eugenics.  Aryans were to be
blonde haired and blue eyed, tall and supposedly possessed of
superior intellect.  Therefore, mental patients were seen as not
only useless to society but dangerous because their "inferior
genetics" posed what amounted to a health threat under Nazi law.
These patients were used in experimental gassing tests using
carbon monoxide generated from automobile engines.  Then after
the war began and with the invasion of Soviet Russia hundreds of
thousands of Russian prisoners filled POW compounds and some
were diverted to new concentration camps in Poland like Auschwitz.
It was at these camps that the experiments of the mental asylums
went into larger scale operation.

At Auschwitz a small gas chamber was constructed as a possible
method of dealing with increasing numbers of inmates at the camps
which were now mostly Jews from Poland (Europe's largest population
of Jews).  The diesel engines that ran the first gas chambers were
not working out well.  It was reported that inmates were dying of
suffocation rather than dying in their sleep as carbon monoxide was
supposed to do.  It was affecting the guards seeing the tortured
faces as the chambers were emptied.  A call went out to German
industry to develop a better method of gassing "pests".

Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.  The SS conducted
experiments using Zyclon B and were pleased with the speed that it
took effect.  Documents have survived the war that show where the
SS specifically requested if the odor could be eliminated.
Apparently, the SS did not want their "rats" to know they were
being gassed.  With the implementation of gas chambers using
Zyclon B, the "Final Solution" entered its most lethal stage.

At Chelmno, Auschwitz/Birkenau, Sobibor and other camps which
came to be known in to the SS as not Concentration Camps but Death
Camps under the code name "Operation Reinhard" German industry
again assisted the SS with the design and construction of a method
of disposing of these thousands of corpses.  Mass graves surrounded
the camps.  Bon fires could not efficiently deal with the
increasing health risk to camp guards so combination gas chambers
and crematoria were constructed to solve the problem.  At the
Birkenau sub-camp of Auschwitz no less than five of these new
"Kremas" were built to handle the vast numbers of corpses.

Operation Reinhard was the conversion of the eastern most
concentration camps into death camps where the primary function
was the extermination of the camp's inhabitants which included
working them to death.  The operation was so named in memory of
Reinhard Heydrich, Himmler's most trusted subordinate who was
assassinated in Czechoslovakia by Czech commandos trained for
the task by the British.  Reprisals for Heydrich's death included
the destruction of the entire town of Lidice and the murder of
the towns inhabitants (including animals), the appointment of Hans
Frank (a ruthless, unscrupulous man) as Heydrich's successor and
the conversion of the Reinhard camps.

The SS not only rounded up the Jews and sent them to the
concentration camps to be worked to death.  The SS employed
armed formations of troops specially trained to locate and
eliminate Jewish communities.  These units were known as
Einsatzgruppen and they orchestrated their own brand of mass
murder which accounted for an estimated one million of the
six million deaths of Jews at the hands of the Nazis.  Their
initial method was to force their victims to dig a tank ditch
and upon its completion these people were shot to death as
they stood naked in the ditch, their clothing then collected
and sent to Germany to be reutilized along with the valuables
and other property.  This policy was developed by SS Chief
Heinrich Himmler to gain favor with Hitler that his SS cost
the German Reich much less than standard Army units because
they were self sustaining.   The SS even had a branch that
dealt only with the economics of running the SS predicated
upon the goods stolen from its victims or through their labor
which was contracted to German industrial giants like I. G.
Farben and several others.

The question arises, with such a large operation, did the German
people know what was going on and if so, why did they do nothing
to stop it.  It must be realized that there were many types of
camps and most were remotely located. There were transit camps,
the ghettos, work camps and others.  Conditions in transit camps
were unpleasant but not like concentration camps and nowhere near
as unbearable as the death camps.  The Nazis made every attempt
to keep quiet the details of what was happening to the Jews to
avert a panic.  Since the early 1930s the Nazis enacted various
laws against the Jews barring them from government employment,
industrial ownership, marrying Aryans, etc.  When it was
announced that Jews were being relocated to the east it seemed
like one more step in the process excluding Jews from German
society but they didn't expect what was to happen as time went on.

Those Germans who knew about the plans for the ultimate fate
of the Jews knew also that to speak of it in public could get
you arrested by the GESTAPO (Geheim Staats Polizei - Secret
State Police) and sent to the camps yourself. There were a
number of Germans who tried to call attention to the fate of
the Jews and the camps were full of them as well as catholic
priests and other religious leaders who spoke up on behalf to
the Jews.  Indeed, not just speaking in public but in the
privacy of your own home could result in arrest as children
were encouraged to report anyone spreading such rumors and
defeatist talk.

The Polish Ghettos of Warsaw, Cracow and Lwow were chosen to
be the eastern relocation centers because of their already
large Jewish populations and they provided a good holding area
until the surrounding camps could handle them. When trainloads
of Jews, Gypsies, Communists and other enemies of the German
Reich arrived at the camps in processing consisted of selections
where the SS camp doctors would decide then and there who was to
be gassed and who was to work.  Mothers with small children who
refused to separate from them followed the old and sick to the
Kremas where they were gassed while those deemed healthy and
strong enough were sent to work in the shops where they would
die of malnutrition, disease, beatings and exhaustion.

Prisoners at Dachau were used in a number of medical experiments
testing flight suits for thermal protection for Luftwaffe pilots
only these test subjects did not survive the experiments.  They
were submerged in freezing water in the protective suits until
they froze to death so it could be determined how long a pilot
could be expected to live if shot down over the North Sea in
winter.  High and low pressure experiments as well as many other
psudo-scientific experiments were conducted using camp inmates
as research subjects.  At one camp an SS doctor attempted to
create Siamese twins.  At Auschwitz, Dr. Josef Mengele used
identical twins in his experiments where few ever survived.

Toward the end of 1944 as Russian troops fought their way into
Poland the first camps came to light and the Russians were
horrified at that they found. Shortly thereafter US forces
began finding camps in Germany as did the British attacking
in Northern Germany.  In their haste the SS did a poor job of
hiding their crimes.  Piles of bodies were found at all the
camps, emaciated survivors wandered aimlessly while others
were too weak to stand.  Before departing the SS ordered the
mass graves dug up and the bodies burned to remove any trace
of those murders.  At Auschwitz the five Kremas at Birkenau
were dynamited and tons of records destroyed as the SS
frantically sought to eradicate the evidence of the Holocaust
but it was just too enormous.   Today archives are filled
with millions of documents about the camps and their
administration.  New records have been located in the former
Soviet Union which further help to piece together the history
of this tragic time for mankind.

Men such as Simon Wiesenthal, himself a survivor of several of
the camps, have dedicated their lives to bringing the people
responsible for these crimes to trial.  In our daily newspapers
even today there are stories of former camp guards being found
here in the US living in anonymity.  Argentina is currently
extraditing a former SS Captain Priebe who was responsible for
the shooting of 320 Italian civilians in 1944 near Rome.

Perhaps as important as bringing these old criminals to justice
is the fight against the revival of Nazi ideals by hate groups
like the Ku Klux Klan and the skinheads.  Both here and in
Europe groups of young people have fallen victim to the lies
and half truths of Holocaust deniers, people who claim that
the Holocaust did not take place at all.  As incredible as it
seems, these people ignore archives of facts as being made up
by some giant conspiracy.  The photographs are fakes and the
survivors and soldiers who liberated them are making up the
stories according to these deniers.  They even disregard the
testimonies and autobiographies of camp guards themselves.

You can decide for yourself by visiting the Kelly Base Library
where Bill Huber, a computer programmer and amature historian
with the Kelly Software Development Activity has put together
a memorial exhibit of original concentration camp memorabilia
commemorating the 50th anniversary of the end of the nightmare,
the end of the Holocaust.  The exhibit will run though the month
of April.  Augmenting the exhibit will be a selection of new
books on the Holocaust now available through the base library
procured by Library Technician Charlotte Tolar.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

 >Well, we are on the subject now :-)
 >
 >Does anyone of you have any information about the battleships with
 >hull numbers between BB-47 and BB-54 ? I believe they were cancelled
 >or scrapped, but just can't get any info on them (names, fate, etc).
 >
 >Thanks in advance for your answers,
 >
 >Jorge Merino
 >

BB-47 Washington (Colorado Class): Keel laid 30 Jun 19, launched 1
Sep 21; construction cancelled 8 Feb 22; struck 1924, hull sunk as
target 25 Nov 24.

BB-48 West Virginia (Colorado Class): Keel laid 12 Apr 20, launched
19 Nov 21, commissioned 1 Dec 23, decommissioned 9 Jan 47, sold Jan
61.

BB-49 South Dakota (South Dakota Class): Keel laid 15 Mar 20,
cancelled 8 Feb 22, struck 1923, sold 25 Oct 23.

BB-50 Indiana (South Dakota Class): Keel laid 1 Nvo 20, cancelled 8
Feb 22, struck 1923, sold 25 Oct 23.

BB-51 Montana (South Dakota Class): Keel laid 1 Sep 20, cancelled 8
Feb 22, struck 24 Aug 23, sold 25 Oct 23.

BB-52 North Carolina (South Dakota Class): Keel laid 12 Jan 20,
cancelled 8 Feb 22, sold 25 Oct 23, struck 10 Nov 23.

BB-53 Iowa (South Dakota Class): Keel laid 17 May 20, cancelled 8
Feb 22, struck 1923, sold 8 Nov 23.

BB-54 Massachusetts (South Dakota Class): Keel laid 4 Apr 21,
cancelled 8 Feb 22, sold 8 Nov 23, struck 10 Nov 23.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:47:06 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ DAY

Since we are talking about V-J Day, the White House press secretary said that
it was never the intention of the administration to strike the term V-J Day and
use some other cockamamie designation for this day. The pressure must have
mounted greatly, and so we are back to V-J Day, and it was a great victory any
way you spell it. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:28:44 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: General - WWII Ghost Stories

Wsiaki, Bill writes:
>
> I am curious if anyone has read or heard any WWII-L stories related to the
> supernatural or unexplained?
>

Sorry Bill, I don't have any good ghost stories from WWII, but there is an
excellent book from a WWI Canadian vet that you might want to check out.
It's called _Ghosts Have Warm Hands_, by Will R. Bird, an ex-Nova Scotia
Highlander if I recall correctly.  His brother was lost in 1915 during the
fighting in the Ypres sector, reported as missing and presumed dead.  Funny
thing is that Bird claims to have been saved on three occasions by an
apparition of his brother, and that he had physical contact with the
suspected ghost, hence the title.  All in all, it is a very good read about
WWI trench life, even if you ultimately choose not to believe its super-
natural aspects (a small, but important, part of the book overall).

Canadian newspaperman and columnist, Gregory Clark, was once mistaken for a
ghost during his military days in WWI (he passed away in the early 80's, but
has a book devoted to his military exploits, both as a soldier in WWI and
a war correspondent in WWII--it is highly recommended and I can give you
the title if you wish).  At the time, Clark was a young platoon commander
suffering from acute exema.  The surgeon gave him a horrid white cream to
apply all over his body.  On the night in question, Clark and his men were
stationed on a hill near a graveyard, tasked with guarding a bridge.  Clark
was in his tent/dugout near the top of the hill, stripped naked except for
his boots in the process of applying his prescribed cream, when a German
artillery barrage descended upon the area.  Quite grisly scene follows, with
caskets and corpses being plowed up with each explosion and trying the nerves
of Clark's men stationed near and among the gravestones.  At about this point
Clark decides that there might be a threat to his position, and dashes out to
see what's going.  Clad only in his helmet and boots, he heads down the hill,
only to see his men begin to scatter like rabbits.  Little had, he realized,
of course, what he might look like to shell-hammered and nervous troops:
just like a headless and footless ghost charging out of the shell smoke.

Took him a little while to get the men back in order, but is one of the
funnier misunderstandings I've seen.

Cheers.


--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:47:19 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: KOREA: NIGHT FIGHTER S

Doug, I suggest that you write to the Reference Section, Marine Corps
Historical Center, Bldg 58, Washington Navy Yard, 901 M Street, SE, Washington,
DC 20374, giving the information you provided in the post. The reference
historians will be able to help you out, especially since you described the
squadron patch. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:36:19 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: <No subject given>

Mr Parker,

You may at least partially be in luck.  You might try contacting
a Mr Stephen J. Sanders c/o the 22d Infantry Society, 7729 East
Joshua Tree Lane, Scottsdale, AZ 85250.  He knew Joachim Peiper
quiet well, (at least that is what I understand).  Met him at
the trials (was one of the MP Officers).

He might help you flesh out some of your research.

Hope this helps

Rob Rush
rushr@meade-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 19:30:01 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>>There is a collection of ca. 200 WWII photos in a collection called
>>"Pictures of World War II" at the National Archives.  The www site is
>>http://gopher.nara.gov:70/Oh/inform/dc/audvis/still/ww2photo.html
>>
>
>I tried to hit this server several times but I got a 403 code - Access
>denied or file does not exist.

Same with me. However, I was able to go in from the top. Start with the
NARA main page
        http://gopher.nara.gov
then go through the links
        "Information about NARA holdings"
        "Information about records reainted by Washington D.C..."
        "Audiovisual Records"
        "Still Pictures"

At this point there appear to be a whole bunch of interesting categories to
browse, if it weren't for work.

Strangely enough, it doesn't seem possible to access the ww2photo page
directly; it simply doesn't work. But, I had no trouble - repeatedly -
going through the hierarchy. Oh well.

-----
Windows 96 == Macintosh 85

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 23:10:51 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

I am forwarding this article because of the discussions going on about German
and Japanese atrocities in WWII.

If this article is true, we now know where some of the people responsable for
the atrocities went and what their findings were used for.

While I hope the article in not true, it is consistant with US covert
activities and it is consistant with UN New World Order doctrine.

I would be interested in seeing documentation supporting the comments that
the  US military protected criminals for their knowledge.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: tillman@chuma.cas.usf.edu (Tim Tillman (BIO))
To: tillman@chuma.cas.usf.edu
CC: wayne.steinard@cjewel.com (Wayne Steinard), dsb77@aol.com (Doug Bohannon)
Date: 95-03-23 22:21:39 EST



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 17 MAR 1995 08:08:43 -0000
From: Anonymous <nobody@nately.UCSD.EDU>
Newgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: AIDS As Biological & Psychological Warfare (fwd)


                        DESIGNER DISEASES

           AIDS As Biological & Psychological Warfare

                        by Waves Forrest

Despite repeated denials from Defense Department officials,
allegations persist that AIDS is a genetically altered virus,
which has been deliberately released to wipe out homosexuals
and/or non-whites in the U.S. and reduce populations in third
world countries.

At first glance it seems like the epitome of paranoia to accuse
the military of conspiring to exterminate citizens of their own
country, and even some of their own troops.  However, the vast
majority of military personnel could be completely unaware of
such a plot in their midst, while a relative handful of traitors
in key positions could conduct it under cover of classified
operations.  And the circumstantial evidence is actually quite
compelling, that the AIDS virus was artificially engineered, and
planted in several different locations at about the same time
through vaccination programs, and possibly blood bank
contamination.

At a House Appropriations hearing in 1969, the Defense
Department's Biological Warfare (BW) division requested funds to
develop through gene-splicing a new disease that would both
resist and break down a victim's immune system.  "Within the next
5 to 10 years it would probably be possible to make a new
infective micro-organism which could differ in certain important
respects from any known disease-causing organisms.  Most
important of these is that it might be refractory to the
immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to
maintain our relative freedom from infectious diseases."  (See -
A Higher Form of Killing: The Secret Story of Chemical and
Biological Warfare by R. Harris and J. Paxman, p 266, Hill and
Wang, pubs.)  The funds were approved.

AIDS appeared within the requested time frame, and has the exact
characteristics specified.

In 1972, the World Health Organization published a similar
proposal: "An attempt should be made to ascertain whether viruses
can in fact exert selective effects on immune function, e.g.,
by ...affecting T cell function as opposed to B cell function.
The possibility should also be looked into that the immune
response to the virus itself may be impaired if the infecting
virus damages more or less selectively the cells responding to
the viral antigens."  (Bulletin of the W.H.O., vol. 47, p 257-
274.)  This is a clinical description of the function of the AIDS
virus.

The incidence of AIDS infections in Africa coincides exactly with
the locations of the W.H.O. smallpox vaccination program in the
mid-1970's (London Times, May 11, 1987).  Some 14,000 Haitians
then on UN secondment to Central Africa were also vaccinated in
this campaign.  Personnel actually conducting the vaccinations
may have been completely unaware that the vaccine was anything
other than what they were told.

A striking feature of AIDS is that it's ethno-selective.  The
rate of infection is twice as high among Blacks, Latinos and
Native Americans as among whites, with death coming two to three
times as swiftly.  And over 80% of the children with AIDS and 90%
of infants born with it are among these minorities.  "Ethnic
weapons" that would strike certain racial groups more heavily
than others have been a long-standing U.S. Army BW objective.
(Harris and Paxman, p 265)

Under the current U.S. administration biological warfare research
spending has increased 500 percent, primarily in the area of
genetic engineering of new disease organisms.

The "discovery" of the AIDS virus (HTLV3) was announced by Dr.
Robert Gallo at the National Cancer Institute, which is on the
grounds of Fort Detrick, Maryland, a primary U.S. Army biological
warfare research facility.  Actually, the AIDS virus looks and
acts much more like a cross between a bovine leukemia virus and
a sheep visna (brain-rot) virus, cultured in a human cell culture,
than any virus of the HTLV group.

The closest thing in this case to a "smoking test tube" so far is
the AIDS virus itself.  If it was possible for such a monstrosity
to occur naturally it would have done so ages ago and decimated
mankind at that time.  Some other life form would presently be in
control of this planet (assuming that is not already the case).

The Hepatitis B vaccine study in 1978 appears to have been the
initial means of planting the infection in New York City.  The
test protocol specified non-monogamous males only, and
homosexuals received a different vaccine from heterosexuals.  At
least 25-50% of the first reported New York AIDS cases in 1981
had received the Hepatitis B test vaccine in 1978.  By 1984, 64%
of the vaccine recipients had AIDS, and the figures on the
current infection rate for the participants of that study are
held by the U.S. Department of Justice, and "unavailable."

The AIDS epidemic emerged full-blown in the three U.S. cities
with "organized gay communities" before being reported elsewhere,
including Haiti or Africa, so it is epidemiologically impossible
for either of those countries to be the origin point for the U.S.
infections.

Another indication AIDS had multiple origin points is that the
14-month doubling time of the disease cannot nearly account for
the current number of cases if we assume only a small number of
initial infections starting in the late 1970s.

Before dismissing the possibility that a U.S. Army BW facility
would participate in genocide, bear in mind that hundreds of top
Nazis were imported into key positions in the U.S. military-
intelligence establishment following WW II.  U.S. military
priorities were then re-oriented from defeating Nazis to
"defeating" communism at any cost, and strengthening military
control of economic and foreign policy decisions (See - Project
Paperclip by Clarence Lasby, Atheneum 214, NY, and Gehlen: Spy of
the Century by E.H. Cookridge, Random House.)  There's no proof
those Nazis ever gave up their long-term goals of conquest and
genocide, just because they changed countries.  Fascism was and
is an international phenomenon.

It's not as if this was total reversal of previous U.S. military
policy, however.  Hitler claimed to have gotten his inspiration
for the "final solution" from the extermination of Native
Americans in the U.S.  For that matter the first example of germ
warfare in the U.S. was in 1763 when some of the European
colonists gave friendly Indians a number of blankets that had
been infected with smallpox, causing many deaths.

One indication of the actual U.S. military priorities regarding
BW was the importation of the entire Japanese germ warfare unit
(#731) following WW II.  These people killed over 3000 POWs,
including many Americans, in a variety of grisly experiments, yet
they were granted complete amnesty and given American military
positions in exchange for sharing their research findings with
their U.S. Army counterparts.

Consider also the callous attitude displayed by top military
officials toward veterans suffering from the after-effects of
exposure to Agent Orange and radiation from nuclear weapons
tests.

In fact, since the end of WW II over 200 experimental BW tests
have been conducted on civilians and military personnel in the
U.S.  One example was the test spraying from Sept. 20-26, 1950 of
bacillus globigi and syraceus maracezens over 117 square miles of
the San Francisco area, causing pneumonia-like infections in many
of the residents.  The family of one elderly man who died in the
test sued the government, but lost.  To this day, syraceus is a
leading cause of death among the elderly in the San Francisco
area.  Another case was the joint Army-CIA BW test in 1955, still
classified, in which an undisclosed bacteria was released in the
Tampa Bay region of Florida, causing a dramatic increase in
whooping cough infections, including twelve deaths.  A third
example was the July 7-10, 1966 release of bacteria throughout
the New York subway system, conducted by the U.S. Army's Special
Operations Division.  Due to the vast number of people exposed it
would virtually impossible to identify, let alone prove, and
specific health problems resulting directly from this test.

Despite the loyalty of the vast majority of U.S. military
personnel toward their country, there are clearly some military
officials who have very different intentions, and they occupy
high enough positions to impose their priorities on military
programs and get away with it, so far.

The first detailed charges regarding AIDS as a BW weapon were
published in the Patriot newspaper in New Delhi, India, on July
4, 1984.  It is hard to say where the investigations of this
story in the Indian press might have led, if they had not been
sidetracked by two major domestic disasters shortly thereafter:
the assassination of Indira Gandhi on Oct. 31 and the Bhopal
Union Carbide plant "accident" that killed several thousand and
injured over 200,000 on Dec. 3.

The Soviet press picked up the story on October 1985, making it
easy for U.S. Defense Department spokesmen to dismiss the charges
as "Soviet propaganda," even though many other countries carried
it.  The Soviets recently retracted the charges, in the new
spirit of US-USSR cooperation.

A variation on the AIDS-BW theory that is popular in far-right
publications is that AIDS was developed in Soviet laboratories
for use against the U.S.  An obvious problem with this idea is
that the victims of choice of a Soviet BW attack would be anti-
communists, not minorities or homosexuals, who are generally more
left-wing.  The people at greatest risk from AIDS in the U.S. are
in fact the very elements most disliked by arch-conservatives.
In any case, it is simplistic to assume that one country, U.S. or
USSR, is conducting this campaign against one another.  Although
concealed in apparent conflicts between nations, the real
culprits are multi-national fascists on both "sides" still bent
on massive population reductions and global domination.

Other motives include the old "divide and conquer" principle;
AIDS is inspiring fear and mistrust between people, and scaring
them away from relating to each other at the basic level of
sexuality.  It is acting as a barrier to the attempted cultural
resurgence toward peace, love and cooperation.  Of high school
students surveyed last year as to which decade they'd most like
to have grown up in, 90% chose the 60's.  The last thing pro-war
fascists want is another "love generation," especially if it is
more politically sophisticated than the last one.

Apparently, homosexuals were an initial target in the U.S.
because their sexual practices would help in the rapid spread of
the disease, and because it was correctly assumed that very few
non-homosexual citizens would pay much attention during the early
years of the epidemic.  Also, the stigma of a "homosexual
disease" would interfere with rational analysis and discussion of
AIDS.  Bear in mind that homosexuals were among the first to be
exterminated in Nazi Germany, before Jews or other minorities, so
fewer citizens would object.

The details of precisely how the AIDS virus was synthesized, mass
cultured, and spread by incorporating into vaccination programs
are available but fairly intricate.  It is beyond the scope of
this report to present a crash course in virology, epidemiology,
genetic engineering, and the military strategies of international
fascism.  Readers are encouraged to obtain and study the
references cited here, and demand a full inquiry.  Those
officials who are actually involved in the coverup will reveal it
by their inaction when pressed to investigate.

Evil is hard to confront, especially on the preposterous scale we
have here.  If you acknowledge the presence of those who think
their only hope for survival is to kill off two thirds of all the
other kinds, and their ability to manage it, you then pretty much
have to do something about it.

Three good sources, each which lists many other key references,
are:  Covert Action Information Bulletin #28 ($5), Box 50272,
Washington, D.C.  20004; Bio-Attack Alert ($20), Dr. Robert
Strecker, 1501 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA  90041; Radio Free
America #16 by Dave Emery and Nip Tuck (3 tapes, $10), Davkore
Co., 1300-D Space Park Way, Mountain View, CA  94043.

This report was originally printed in - Critique - Exposing
Consensus Reality, P.O. Box 11368, Santa Rosa, CA  95406.  $15.00
for three issues (one year).

-----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:19:27 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: VJ Day

Ok folks, I will assume that all have seen the paper today that clarifies
the White House position that there is a VJ Day.  In a previous article,
it also explained that it is not accurate to say plans have been scaled
back, since no plans were ever announced.  I do want to verify the
authenticity of that, after having talked to people envolved in the
planning of the ceremonies in Hawaii, it is true that they don't know
what is happening yet. so with out a plan, you can't change the plan.

Now a few other thoughts, coming from Jim Adams, not as any government or
park service representative.  I believe you all know my personal
sentiments regarding Pearl Harbor, WWII, history, veterans, and Marines.
IMHO I think people are getting some dates and events mixed up.  August
14 is actually VJ Day.  That is when the hostilities ceased, that is the
day of the famous Life Magazine pictures showed the crowds in NY Times
Square and the unknown sailor kissing the lady on the street.  That is
when the war in the Pacific ended and we had Victory over Japan.
September 2 was the formal signing of the peace treaty on the BB
Missouri, thus ending the final theater of the entire World War II,
Europe and Pacific (with some minor treaties that had to be signed later
with small countries; but this focused on the Big Powers).  Thus
September 1945 was the final ending of all hostilities in WWII.  It was
the final end of the war.

So in my understanding, people recognized sometime ago that the Pacific,
Hawaii and Pearl Harbor specifically was the formal beginning of WWII for
the United States.  The final action of the war for the United States was
the signing of the treaty in Tokyo, on board the Battleship Missouri, in
the Pacific again, approximately 2 weeks after VJ Day and 4 months after
VE Day.  So, Hawaii would be a fitting place to celebrate and remember
the 50th anniversary of the final ending of the entire war.  It began
here at Pearl Harbor, and Pearl Harbor, specifically the USS ARizona
Memorial has become a cultural icon for the United States that represents
WWII, not just December 7, 1941, and the Japanese Attack.  It is the only
park in the United States dedicated to WWII event (except for Guam).

Over the last couple of years I have heard about several events that
groups wanted to plan, to be held in Hawaii, and related to the
commeneration of the end of the greatest world war.  These were more than
just VJ day topics.  As everything is still in the planning stages and
muddle, what will and will not finally come off is left to be seen.  I
know some of the good ideas I heard the Univ of Hawaii and others talking
about, like seminars dealing with the war in general as well as its end,
were not all able to get off the  ground (money, interest - lots of
seminars and symposiums all ready all over the country the last couple of
years, etc.).  None of these had anything to do with PC (gosh I hate to
even type that word) or pressure, etc.  But I  know much planning is
still going on for what I am sure will be some good events - John D. has
mentioned some as I know he is actively involved.

DOD is ultimately in charge of the events, with lots of input from local
groups and veteran groups etc.  CINCPAC Headquarters is the project officer.

AT the Arizona Memorial, our sole envolvment is on Sept 2, which is the
middle day of the 3 day rememberance ceremonies, and also labeled VJ day
even though that is not accurate (it was the day of the signing), we will
be having a traditional wreath laying ceremony on the Memorial.  It will
be in the same dignified manner that we always do on  December 7 and
Memorial DAy.  There will be the invited dignitaries as usual.  The State
Dept. comes up with the list for foreign and US Govt. officials, the
military will handle US military VIPS.  We will orchestrate the event.

So there is what I know, and how I see it.  No one prompted me to say
anything.  I have not ever been called that nasty word, and if someone
wants to, well I would either say they don't know me or they are speaking
with forked tongue.

Jim Adams

PS, off the track, but I just spent a great afternoon at the Marine Corps
base talking with about 100 hard charging Marines that are getting ready
for discharge and entry into the civilian world, telling them what it was
like for me when I got out, adjustments, etc. and trying to give them
examples of what they could do, college benefits from VA, etc. and job
opportunities in NPS.  Gosh, it is great every time I get a chance to go
back on the Marine Base.  Even though I am on a navy base every day,
there is nothing like a Marine devildog!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:37:19 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust

Bill,

     It is a good, moving article, but rather out of context.
See Robert Conquest's STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS.  He mentions
the meeting between the Nazi SS and Soviet NKVD at Zakopane
(Poland) in early 1940, during which the Soviets passed over to
the Germans the lessons of their considerably greater experience
in the arresting, mass transportation, imprisonment, and
extermination of entire populations -- information which the
Germans would turn against the Soviet Union's own peoples.  There
should be *some* mention of that, don't you think?

     I believe the first people to be gassed at Auschwitz-
Birkenau were 300 Polish and 700 Soviet prisoners of war.  Wasn't
Auschwitz originally created as a concentration camp for Poles?

     I think you should also put the Jewish Holocaust in the
context of the other holocausts perpetrated by these totalitarian
regimes:  Stalin's mass extermination of Ukrainians, Hitler *and*
Stalin's exterminations of the Poles (Jewish and Gentile), etc.
Excluding *any* mention of those looks very narrow, if not biased.

     While I am sure many Soviet troops were as horrified by the
concentration camps they liberated as were troops of the Western
Allies, I seriously doubt the *NKVD* and rest of the Soviet
government was as shocked as they play-acted.

     Thanks for asking our input, on WWII-L.  Good luck with the
article.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:38:21 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS Alabama ... its class?

The Alabama was the last of the South Dekota class; keel laid 1 Feb 40,
launched 16 Feb 42, and commissioned 16 Aug 42.  Next built were the Iowa
class, with the Iowa's keel being laid on 27 June 40, launched 27 Aug 42,
commissioned 22 Feb 43.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:47:56 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Questions for Jim A., re:  Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

Jim,

     Was CDR Fuchida allowed to participate in the December
7, 1991 commemoration?

     Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 23:50:12 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

Rod Rupert wrote:

> Grider was aboard the Wahoo at the time. ... "These were troops we knew had
been bound for New Guinea, to
fight and kill our own men, and Mush, whose overwhelming
biological hatred of the enemy we were only now beginning to
sense, looked about him with exultation at the carnage.
     It was during these nightmarish minutes that Lindhe, our
great procurer during the days the Wahoo was being built at Mare
Island, suffered his greatest ordeal as pharmacist's mate."

I don't know, Rod -- it's a matter of interpretation, of course, but this
doesn't read to me like the description of man who is looking back on the
event with serenity. It sounds to me like he *was* disturbed, to some extent,
if not at the time the shooting occurred, then by the time he got around to
writing about it.

> Based on what I've found so far, the question regarding evidence
of a court martial offense remains unanswered. ... Maybe
someone on the list knows if an official complaint was ever made
by one or more members of the crew.

I do not believe that there was a crew complaint -- I have never come across
anything to indicate that there was. And my understanding (from O'Kane's
account) is that the only transfers off the boat after this incident were of
personnel who were due to be rotated off anyway. But I don't know that it
makes any difference whether a complaint was made or not -- Morton wrote it
up in his patrol report, and it should have been investigated by the proper
authorities. You're right that whether a specifc, court martial offense was
committed remains debatable (that's why we're discussing it). But the mere
fact that it is questionable seems to me like there should have been grounds
for an inquiry.

>Also, if a war crime was committed it wouldn't have just been
Mortons' head on the chopping block. The crew menbers that
manned the deck gun, fired the small arms, and passsed the
ammunition, would have been guilty as well.

Yeah, and that would include people like O'Kane, Sterling and Grider, would
it not? I have no intention of accusing any of these gentlemen of being less
than truthful; I am merely pointing out their vested interest in the matter.
Frankly, I have to wonder about that.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:53:44 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust

Bill,

     One other thing:  being the originators of mass deportation
incarceration, and extermination, the Soviets certainly weren't
aided/abetted by conglomerate corporations and certainly
not by businessmen from *free* societies/economies.  So
I'd be careful about ascribing genocidal proclivities to ...
capitalists? -- :-) -- which is the way it is coming across in
your article.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 22 Mar 1995 to 23 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 55 messages totalling 2122 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. <No subject given> (2)
  2. Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies. (3)
  3. Headers And Identifiers
  4. Pearl Harbor ceremonies.
  5. INF: USN Chronology 03-24-95
  6. Cheryl Abdullah
  7. Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy... (3)
  8. Opinions wanted!! (7)
  9. Greenland P-38's (3)
 10. Location of Pictures and Maps (6)
 11. Spell like Hell ... (2)
 12. tactics Elbe River
 13. Military Aids (2)
 14. MEDIA: VJ Day (2)
 15. 50TH: A RESPITE IN FRANCE
 16. ADMIN: AIDs discussion (2)
 17. Raid on Cabanatuan
 18. Balloon Bombs and Unit 731
 19. Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust (2)
 20. Doolittle's Raiders
 21. MEDIA:Copenhagen Gestapo Raid
 22. MEDIA:Canada War Criminal
 23. MEDIA:V1s and V2s
 24. Swastikas over Elbrus?
 25. WEAP: Battleships
 26. VJ Day
 27. USS Colorado (BB-45)
 28. Re[2]: Hitler's Uniform On Display
 29. PT Boat info request and prospective member. (2)
 30. GEN USS Ward & Midget Sub
 31. Soviet Tactical Practices:  James Sulzen *and* Tobias v.G.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 00:41:13 -0500
From:    Danny Parker University of Central Florida <parker@SIGMA.FSEC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Subject: World War II, Europe, Ardennes Offensive, Malmedy
Massacre, Jochen Peiper

I am an American writer; my previous books are Battle of the
Bulge [1991] and To Win the Winter Sky [1994]). I have
recently begun work on a new project regarding Kampfgruppe
Peiper in the Ardennes Offensive of 1944. I will be attempting
to create a new account in English of the operations of Jochen
Peiper and his unit. Those familiar will know that this is the
Waffen SS unit which perpetrated the Malmedy Massacre. This is
a formidable task and I have decided to contact anyone on the
net who may have information on this story. European
historians are particularly solicited. In particular, I am
looking for anyone who has information on Gen. Wilhelm Mohnke,
the last general to have seen Hitler alive and the commander
of the 1st SS Panzer Division during the Ardennes operation.
Evidently he still lives in Barsbuttal near Hamburg. Also, I
am looking for anyone with information about Jochen Peiper's
death in the summer of 1976 when he was killed by assassins
unknown near Traves, France.
  -Danny Parker [Parker@sigma.fsec.ucf.edu]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:04:43 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

Louis, first apologies.  I think you may have asked me this before and in
my busyniess I have neglected to respond.

I was not at the Memorial in 1991, but my understanding is that there
were no Japanese invited to the ceremony.  this was a ceremony for the
United States and her citizens only.

I am not sure what the Japanese position is regarding the upcoming
commeration.  I know there are many different events being talked about
by different groups, official and unofficial and private, etc.  John
Devirgillo has written in the past about work he has been doing with a
Japanese veteran group.  He may be better able to provide some insight
for your question.



****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Jim,
>
>      Was CDR Fuchida allowed to participate in the December
> 7, 1991 commemoration?
>
>      Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
> V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:19:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: Headers And Identifiers

My cheapie internet provider only includes the list address in
the header, and I have no idea who posts a message unless they
include their name and address in their message.  It would help
me a great deal if everyone included even a one-line name and
address logo at the end of their message.

Thanks.

george.bauer@citynet.com

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:18:58 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

Snip...snip...snip

>      Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
> V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>


Lou & Readers,


There are several events in which old WWII adversaries will meet in friendship
and reconciliation.  Some of these reconciliation events are now rituals in
which the participants meet almost yearly in Hawaii or in Japan.  The number
of WWII veterans dwindle each year, and this will probably be the last
big year for these very special meetings of old warriors.  Here are a few
events in which American and Japanese veterans will meet in friendship:


Battleship Missouri Event - Sept. 2, 1995 in Bermerton

Friendship Declaration Signing - Sept. 3, 1995 in Honolulu

WWII American-Japanese Hand Shaking Ceremony - Sept. 3, 1995 in Honolulu

Friendship Plaque Dedication - Sept. 4, 1995 in Honolulu

Sister Rose Ceremony - Sept. 5, 1995 Honolulu

There are also several other small group ceremonies.  All WWII veterans are
welcome (forget the politicians) to join these events.  I understand that
the people who helped put together the Civil War television special will
be interviewing and taking live footage of these old adversaries for a
future Pacific War special.

If there are any WWII American, British, ANZAC, Russian, German or Japanese
veterans on the list who wish to participate in some or all of these once in
a lifetime events, please E-mail me your address, and I will get you
connected to the right people.  Please feel free to pass this note on to
any WWII veteran that may be interested.



Aloha,


John F. De Virgilio




P.S.  To my surprise, there are several AJA men who got stuck in Japan
after the surprise raid at Pearl Harbor and had to serve with the IJN.
These same veterans returned home to the United States after the war, only
to get drafted five years later for the Korean war as American soldiers.
Now that's what I call *BAD LUCK*.

P.S.  A number of IJN veterans are interested in meeting various
American veterans who were fighter pilots, bomber aviators, submariners,
destroyer, carrier, cruiser, and battleship men.  There are also a few
German and Italian veterans who are interested in the various friendship
ceremonies.


P.S.  Trivia:  Which former Axis country built a shrine in remeberance to
their military dead and to the American KIA?   This shrine holds the
names of every American service person killed-in-action.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:30:43 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A., re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

John D., thanks for the assist with the information on the events.
****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:38:00 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor ceremonies.

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Jim,
>
>      Was CDR Fuchida allowed to participate in the December
> 7, 1991 commemoration?
>
>      Is there *any* enthusiasm from the Japanese for commemorating
> V-J Day or the peace signing ... at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>


Lou & Others,


My recollections are that M. Fuchida had already passed away, and Genda
passed away in 1989-90(?).  However, the senior surviving Bun-Tai-Cho
(Group/squadron Leader), Mr. Hirata Matsumura, did visit Pearl Harbor on
the 50th.  Mr. Matsumura and a number of IJN aviators did not want, nor were
invited, to attend any political ceremonies in the Pearl Harbor navy yard.
Instead, the old IJN avaitors enjoyed shaking hands and speaking with the
many American veterans that visited the Arizona Memorial museum and
visitor's center on December 7, 1991.


Cheers,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-24-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/24 Sat. Battleships (Vice Adm. W. A. Lee) bombard Okinawa,
           Ryukyu Islands.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 68 and torpedo boat
              TOMOZURU, by carrier-based aircraft,
              South China Sea,
              28 d. 25'N., 124 d. 32'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:36:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Cheryl Abdullah

Cheryl,

Please contact me.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:10:50 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

Doug Bohannon forwards a rather lengthly tome inre: How the US military
developed AIDS.

If this is true, then how come "60 Minutes" did a story about a guy in England
dying in the late 50's from a mysterious, unknown disease that was recently
proven to be AIDS?

Someone's pulling someone's leg here...;-)I'm sure I'm not the only
person on this list who saw the story. I'll leave it to others to flesh it
out...
                                                        Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:42:17 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hi Bill,... I liked it, but I am no authority. One fact which I think
might be worth including is that which I learned from a PBS documentary
the other night: that there were over 300 of these camps throughout
Germany and captured Poland.  300 !  It puts it into scale. It certainly
must've been an obvious thing to the German people. It isn't concievable
how they remained oblivious to over 300 camps.

-Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:18:42 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Greenland P-38's

Steve - can you repost the WWW site with the P-38 restoration site pictures. TIA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 08:18:26 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Julian,

Thanks for doing some exploring to track dowin access to the WWII
photos at the National Archives.  I had found the site while exploring
the NARA resources last week and had copied down the address that
Netscape showed for that spot, but I didn't try to get back in using
only the address.

Sorry for any inconvenience I caused.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 06:54:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <frank.scheidt@WOLVERINE.COM>
Subject: Spell like Hell ...

 WWID> it's "it's" when it's the contraction for "it is"; and
 WWID> "its" when it's possessive.

That's true enough but use of "it's" seems more natural as most
possessives use the "'s" construction ...




... Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:14:30 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spell like Hell ...

Frank Scheidt writes

> WWID> it's "it's" when it's the contraction for "it is"; and
> WWID> "its" when it's possessive.

>That's true enough but use of "it's" seems more natural as most
>possessives use the "'s" construction ...

Oighmigawd! Gammmar lessons on a war discussion list. YEEECH!
I thought I'd seen the last of that stuff back in 8th grade...

Anyway, Frank, there are Interstate Highways in Hawaii for the same
reason that we drive on Parkways and park on Driveways...

                                                        :-)Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:17:41 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: tactics Elbe River

Greetings all, I have a question that I guess could be called tactical. I
have been reading about the end of the war, and the meeting of the
Americans and Russians at the Elbe river. My question is this-how do you
coordiate two allied armies meeting each other without them running into
(or worse firing on) one another? just wondering -Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:24:48 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

a few comments-


> Pogroms, attacks on Jews, were not started with the Nazis.
> European history records many such horrific instances but what
> makes the Final Solution so ghastly is the scale and planning that
> went into Hitler's goal of exterminating the Jewish people as a
> whole.
more to the point, this was to be offical policy. One could claim that
pogroms were not part of a more organized plan.


Mein Kampf, Hitler's blueprint of what Germany should be,
> published in 1924 spells out in so many words that the Jews were to
> be exterminated as Hitler blamed them for every ill he could recount.
actually, hitler origional plan was to simply force Jews out of Germany
and German held lands.

> Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin


overall, a very good article, and a good introduction to those who do not
know all the details of the Holocaust.-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:29:40 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

>
> If this article is true, we now know where some of the people responsable for
> the atrocities went and what their findings were used for.
>
> While I hope the article in not true, it is consistant with US covert
> activities and it is consistant with UN New World Order doctrine.
>
> I would be interested in seeing documentation supporting the comments that
> the  US military protected criminals for their knowledge.
a few points on this article-

1. on last sunday's 60 minutes, pathologists in England solved the cause
of death for a man who died in England in 1959. It was found, looking at
tissue samples kept from the autopsy, that the young man died of AIDS in
1959. They also stated that biotechnology in 1959 was incapable of
producing something like AIDS. The technology simply did not exist.

2. given that, even if AIDS  was a form of biological warfare, it is a
very poor choice, since it can lie dormant for years before showing up.
the goal of any bio or chemical weapon is immediate incapacitation, not a
slow death months to years later.-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:51:44 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Military Aids

I think the important issue of the Military Aids article is the question
raised about our governments hiring and protecting war criminals to use their
knowledge and experience.

I know that we obtained rocket and nuclear scientists from the nazis. I also
know that we have used data gathered by war criminals who experimented on
living humans. Would our government and military hesitate to use war
criminals if they thought the recovered knowledge would be useful?

I believe the answer is YES and many war criminals with "valuable knoweldge"
have been hired and protected by our government.

Let me include a disclaimer.

I found some issues of the Military Aids article relevant to the discussion
on Japanese atrocities. I do not endorse the articles accuracy but I do believ
e that some points of the article are well founded.

War atrocities and accountability are not a simple issue, especially when you
consider our governments practice of classifying mass volumes of information
gathered during the war and keeping much of this information secret today, 50
years after the war.

Maybe someone retired from the military or CIA and with nothing to loose
could come forward and enlighten us on what was covered up.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:57:27 -0500
From:    Pat Marsden <marsden@ISMAP6.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

On Mar 23,  7:39pm, William L. Huber - SAA wrote:
> Subject: Opinions wanted!!

>                Since the early 1930s the Nazis enacted various
> laws against the Jews barring them from government employment,
> industrial ownership, marrying Aryans, etc.
>-- End of excerpt from William L. Huber - SAA

You might want to also mention the laws passed which prohibited
Jews from owning or using firearms, thereby making it harder to
resist.  This is probably getting a little off the WWII-L track
but there is a group today, "Jews for the Perservation of Firearms
Ownership," based out of Milwaukee, WI, whose goal is to publicize
the facts of Nazi gun control as a tool of the holocaust.  But that
could be a whole other essay.

All in all, a good paper.  I enjoyed it.

patrick


--
Patrick D. Marsden          | Naval Research Laboratory     | (202)-404-8229
Computational Physics, Inc  | Planetary Atmospheres Section | Opinions are mine
marsden@ismap6.nrl.navy.mil | Code 7641                     |  and mine alone.
http://power.nrl.navy.mil   | Washington, D.C.  20375       |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:00:34 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military Aids

> I know that we obtained rocket and nuclear scientists from the nazis. I also
> know that we have used data gathered by war criminals who experimented on
> living humans. Would our government and military hesitate to use war
> criminals if they thought the recovered knowledge would be useful?
>
There has been an ethical debate over whether to use medical data that is
collected by people such as megele. There are many moral issues raised
(can data that cost a life through tourture be used to save a life or
ease suffering?)-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:00:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <frank.scheidt@WOLVERINE.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: VJ Day

 WWID> Jim, Ron, & Others:

 WWID> As far as I am concerned, there should be no restritcions on what any
 WWID> group wants to call the day or events.  There are so many veteran's
 WWID> groups and cultural groups involved in the many ceremonies that I feel
 WWID> there is room for many appropriate titles (VJ included).  In the
 WWID> present, friendship and mutual respect are very important.  Althought
 WWID> the past is important, we should not live in the past.  Japan IS AN
 WWID> IMPORTANT Pacific ally today.  My personal views are global.

 WWID> Thank God the the Vietnamese do not celebrate a specific VA Day (do
 WWID> they?). Oucccchhh, that hurts!

Huh?  "VA Day"?  What does *that* mean -- surely not "Victory over
America Day" ... that would make no sense since we didn't *lose*
the Vietnam war, we merely lost interest in it and abandoned it.
If the American public had been behind the effort, we'd have easily
finished-off the North Vietnamese.  *Then* we'd be celebrating "VV
Day" I suppose ...




... Puns are for groan ups.  Its the punetentiary for you.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:00:40 EST
From:    Mike Fetters <NASEM015@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Due to the interest in World War II photographs, I thought that some of
you might find the following National Air and Space Museum press release
interesting. We've recently established a National Air and Space Museum
listserv where we will be posting breaking news, calendars of events and
background information about the museum on a regular (but low-frequency)
basis. Here's the release, I hope many of you will have a chance to come
visit this exhibition.

March 6, 1995

NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM TO DISPLAY WORLD WAR II PHOTOGRAPHS FROM
THE HOME FRONT

Photographs depicting the supportive efforts of those on the home front
during World War II -- including border patrols and volunteer workers --
will be on display at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum
beginning March 30 to October 2.

The exhibition, "Building the Arsenal of Democracy: World War II
Photographs from the National Air and Space Museum Archives," takes its
title from the words of President Franklin D. Roosevelt who, in 1940,
called on Americans to work together and become the "Arsenal of
Democracy."

The 47 photographs in the exhibition illustrate the changes brought
about by the combined efforts of military personnel and private
citizens, working not only to support the soldiers, sailors and airmen
on the front lines, but also to protect the United States from attack.

"Building the Arsenal of Democracy," located in the Pioneers of Flight
gallery on the museum's second floor, is divided into four sections.
Photographs in the "Preparing For War" section show the transition from
old World War I equipment to new technology that was needed to defend
against air power. Aircraft such as the Piper 0-59, a message carrier
that was maneuverable in difficult terrain; the Boeing P-26
"Pea-Shooter," the first all-metal monoplane to be produced in America;
and the Martin B-10 prewar bomber are captured in photographs.

The "Coastal Defense" section of the exhibit includes photographs of
aircraft patrolling American borders, volunteers watching for enemy
aircraft from rooftops, and aircraft protecting convoys from German
submarines.

In "Training, Manufacturing and Transportation," visitors will be able
to view photographs of training facilities in the United States that
were used for airborne troops and aviation cadets; private citizens
buying war bonds at an air show to support the production of planes; and
aircraft assembly lines, converted from civilian to military use.

The final section, "War's End," presents photographs of soldiers
convalescing or receiving their final pay at separation centers.

Curator Thomas Soapes worked with designer Linda King in the selection
of photographs from the museum's archives. The photographs are drawn
from the United States Air Force pre-1954 Still Photography Collection
of approximately 145,000 images, as well as the collections of Rudy
Arnold and Hans Groenhoff, two of the outstanding professional aviation
photographers of the 1930s and 1940s.

The National Air and Space Museum, located at Sixth Street and
Independence Avenue S.W., is open to the public seven days a week, from
10 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Admission is free.

-end of press release-

I apologize in advance for any sentence fragments, typos or misplaced
punctuation.........

For those of you interested in subscribing to NASMNEWS, send a note to:
listserv@sivm.si.edu

Leave the subject line blank. The body of the note should contain only
the text: SUB NASMNEWS Firstname Lastname (where Firstname Lastname
represents your name).

Mike Fetters, Office of Public Affairs, National Air and Space Museum
*********

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:29:44 -0600
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <dingbaum@HEP.NET>
Subject: Re: Greenland P-38's

Ron,

The P38 restoration gifs are located on my server and are available
via ftp and www.  Steve scanned them and was good enough to send them
to me.

     FTP;

     hepnrc.hep.net   in /history/ww2/p38


     WWW;

     http://hepnrc.hep.net/ftp/history/ww2/p38/

Jeff

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:44:51 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hi Drew,

> more to the point, this was to be offical policy. One could claim that
> pogroms were not part of a more organized plan.

Good point.

> actually, hitler origional plan was to simply force Jews out of Germany
> and German held lands.

I thought there was a passage where he mentioned that had they been
exterminated that many of the Aryans that died in the first war would
still be around.  That's why I asked for the list's help :-)

> > Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> > rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
> you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin

I thought so and had it in the original draft but since I could not
recall 100% certain I went generic.

> overall, a very good article, and a good introduction to those who do not
> know all the details of the Holocaust.-Drew

Thanks for the tips and the encouragement, it is a touchy subject and
deserves a high degree of sensitivity.   Thanks to all the list
members who have provided many good tips.  I couldn't have done it
without you all.  Several of the points in the article come directly
>from discussions we have had here on the list.

Cheers, Bill    whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:42:19 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: A RESPITE IN FRANCE

  Oslo, Norway March 24, 1995

  After breaking through the Siegfried Line and chasing German forces
almost to the Rhine, the 4th Infantry Division moved back to France,
near Strasbourg.  During a rest period, I had time for correspondence
and relaxation.  Chapter 16 of my book LETTERS HOME contains a review
of the military situation in March, 1945 and a number of letters.  Here
are some excerpts:

          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
          *                                                         *
          *     ALLIED FORCES CONTINUE TO ATTACK ON BROAD FRONT     *
          *                                                         *
          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

          With the seizure of the bridge at Remagen and
          establishment of a bridgehead, we could see the end of the
          war approaching. Nevertheless, considerable fighting lay
          ahead. Despite riots in German cities and opposition feelers
          regarding peace, Hitler continued to have the loyalty of most
          German generals. With seven million men still under arms,
          he was not about to give up. When von Rundstedt advised
          him to end the war, Hitler fired him and brought Kesselring
          from Italy as his replacement.

          Despite lingering British misgivings, Eisenhower's broad front
          strategy continued to prevail. While Montgomery prepared for
          a major offensive in the north (PLUNDER), Bradley launched
          attacks to clean up German forces to the west of the Rhine.
          Furthermore, Eisenhower decided that, even though the
          Russians had paused at the Oder, he would not concentrate
          on taking Berlin. This decision came back to haunt
          Eisenhower later when the Grand Alliance collapsed into the
          Cold War. Historians are still quarreling over whether he did
          the right thing.

          To Eisenhower's relief, Churchill formally abandoned any
          idea of making Field Marshall Alexander a deputy to
          Eisenhower, rather than Air Chief Marshall Tedder.

          The stress of such quarrels and defeating the German
          offensive in the Ardennes left Eisenhower exhausted. His
          Chief of Staff, Lt. Gen. Walter Bedell Smith, persuaded him
          to take a holiday in Cannes. This provided an opportunity
          for leisurely talks with his generals and composing his
          differences with Bradley. Congressional approval of Bradley's
          fourth star helped. Furthermore, Eisenhower promised to
          return the 9th Army, which was then under Montgomery, to
          Bradley after all allied forces were across the Rhine.

          In the meantime, there was growing concern at SHAEF that
          Hitler was planning to continue the war from redoubts in
          Norway and the Alps. Plans were prepared for the invasion
          of Norway, which contemplated using Sweden as a base
          after the liberation of Denmark. The concern about a
          redoubt in the Alps gave an additional incentive to getting
          allied divisions across the Rhine on a broad front, to destroy
          German forces before they could move southward.

          Before this would be possible, however, it was necessary to
          capture the Saar. While the 4th Division infantry regiments
          were taking a well earned rest near Luneville, not far from
          Strasbourg, the 4th Division Artillery supported the 63rd
          Infantry Division in its attack just east of Saarbruecken. All
          I recall from this episode was standing on a hill and
          admiring the huge screen the artillery had created with
          smoke shells. During this period, there was time for letter
          writing. (In the early 1950s, I found myself the Saar desk
          officer in the State Department, responsible for foiling the ill
          advised efforts of the French to get the Saar away from
          Germany.)


          Dear Folks, March 16, 1945, Germany

          The mail has been very slow lately. One day soon it should
          catch up with us and a number of them should fall my way.
          In the meantime, I'm starting over on my correspondence.

          Writing is one of my best means of relaxation now. Wish I
          had a dollar for every word I've written in the past year.
          However, there is little to do other than read or write. Very
          little indeed.

          Sometimes I feel that I am wasting many valuable hours
          that will never be recovered. And there are many moments
          when I just sit and do nothing. But, our attention is
          demanded on a second's notice so often that it is impossible
          to concentrate on anything. Often I try to write or read and
          find that it makes me tense and uncomfortable. Such being
          the case, study is impossible.

          Thus I hope there is something enriching about this war
          that is unseen. For if there isn't, my time is wasted other
          than the little I might contribute toward winning. But
          perhaps the fates are not asking too much of me to demand
          a few years out of my existence. And certainly one cannot
          complain if this sacrifice is rewarded in being allowed to
          take advantage of a more profitable life in the future.

          My love, John

          Dear Folks, March 20, 1945, France

          A recent Stars and Stripes has an article about the 4th
          completing its 199th day of continuous contact with the
          enemy. That aught to establish some sort of record. It
          started with the 24th of August, 1944, the day before we
          entered Paris. It ended at Adenau, Germany, after a drive
          through the Siegfried Line, across the Prum and Kyll Rivers,
          and after Jerry until the German line there had completely
          collapsed.

          My travelogue has been broadened now to include new areas
          of France. Have seen Metz, Sarreguemines, Saarlautern and
          other cities. Each section of France in its own way has its
          particular beauty. Dad should know the territory I mention
          there, having been from Colmar to Luxembourg in 1918.

          He probably has noted also how close our drive through the
          Siegfried Line carried us to his path into Germany. Had we
          made the Remagen crossing, it would have been complete.

          Love, John

          Dear Dad, March 23, 1945, France

          Will the Germans fight energetically to resist us the east
          side of the Rhine? Upon this depends whether the war will
          last a month after we push, or through the summer. The
          answer is not available now and won't be until we push.
          Each step we take could be the last.

          But we are becoming angry. Perhaps the German should
          fight for his country. We would. But I hate to see all these
          men go down unnecessarily. It is such a pity.

          But we must be patient.

          Love, John

          I should underline my reference to our becoming angry. This
          was to influence our behavior once we crossed the Rhine. To
          put it bluntly, it took only minor resistance from a village
          for us to dump a great deal of artillery into it before the
          infantry attacked.

          END OF EXCERPTS FROM LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR
          Copyright John C. Ausland 1993

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 12:47:06 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: AIDs discussion

        Wow!  This has been some week!  This is my third official
admonition in as many days!  This discussion on AIDs has absolutely
nothing to do with WWII.  Keep it off the list.  Now.  Otherwise, I
may get *really* cranky.

        As a reminder, the other two warnings concerned discussing
Maplethorpe (which has subsided) and discussing grammar (which has
not subsided).  Continuing either of these discussions will turn me
into a *real* curmudgeon.

        While I have everyone's attention, I should also warn that
those legal beagles from Colorado, Cantor and Siegel, are spamming the
Internet once again and I have heard that they're targeting mailing
lists as well.  If they should hit this mailing list, please do not
follow up to their message TO THE MAILING LIST.  However, these people
are recalcitrant Internet abusers so feel free to flood their mailboxes
via private email.

        Thank you for reading this.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:01:37 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan

"Raid on Cabanatuan" - Soon to be a major motion picture

In commemoration of the 50-year anniversary of the end of World War II,
and the Liberation of the Philippines,  a motion picture treatment
(scenario) of a somewhat obscure, but compelling and accurate novel
based on the daring rescue of 516 survivors of the infamous Bataan Death
March from a Japanese POW camp at Cabanatuan, Philippines, is submitted
in episodes for your review.  I am a personal friend of the book's
author, who  has graciously allowed this information to be presented
selectively on the Internet.  The author, an ex-Army Officer,  spent six
years researching the Raid in meticulous detail, in the Philippines.

Please E-Mail me if interested in obtaining a copy of the book - and/or
scenario (bound, with pictures). This is a public service - not a
commercial solicitation.

The scenario will be presented in chronological order, a day at a time,
following the overview.

Stay tuned!



Jim Wilson
Wilpro@ix.netcom.com
Las Vegas, NV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:49:36 GMT
From:    Robert Edison <redison@FDIC.GOV>
Subject: Re: Balloon Bombs and Unit 731

        This post is in response to the article on the Japanese Balloon
born bombs of WWII.  It also brings together some earlier material that
appeared in discussion of Japanese biological warfare as practiced by
Units 100, 731 and Tama.

        Recently, an article by Nicholas Kristof appeared in the Denver
Post of 17 March 1995 (a New York Times piece) which mentioned that the
Japanese had planned to drop biological agents from balloons and even to
use Kamikaze aircraft to dump plague-infected fleas over San Diego.
Robert Mikesh's book on Japanese Balloon Bomb attacks on North America
provides excellent details on the attacks and provides an estimate of the
carrying capacity of the balloons as 300 lbs at 30,000 feet, enough for
the transpacific voyage from Japan to the United States.  While Mikesh
says the balloons were used for incendiaries and the Japanese did not
consider them for biological delivery, the balloons could indeed carry one
or perhaps two of the 40kg (88 pound) HA bomb that Shiro Ishii's unit 731
had developed for dropping anthrax.  Kristof's article mentions use of the
balloons for biological agent delivery, and if anthrax had been used, it
could have caused severe problems for American farmers in the west and
possibly mid-west.  Mikesh estimates that some 1000 of the 9000 balloons
released made it to North America.  The use of plague infected fleas was
not new, as it had been used in China.  Newman in his book published in
1944, cites a Japanese aircraft which dropped rice and wheat grains mixed
with fleas over Chuhsien, Chekiang Province on 4 October 1940.  Within 38
days bubonic plage broke out in the city and lasted for 24 days resulting
in 21 deaths.  The rice had been used to attract rats, which were then
infested by the plague infected fleas.  The rats then infected the human
populace.  Later, during a airdrop by Japanese aircraft on 28 November
1940 over Kinwa, small whitish-yellow granules were found.  When brought
into contact with water, the granules swelled up, and when mixed in a test
tube released a milky suspension.  Examination of the granules  revealed
rod shaped bacteria of Bacillus Pestis, or bubonic plague which would
appear to be targeted against the civilian water supplies.

        Williams book on Unit 731 shows an aircraft used by Unit 731 in
Manchuria and over China.  It would appear to be a Kawasaki Type 88 Light
Bomber which was adapted from the Type 88-2 Reconnaissance aircraft.  The
planes were virtually the same and the photo does not provide a good view
of the two extra wing struts of the light bomber version.

        Harris's book does mention that while US examination of the
balloons found on US soil did not reveal any biological agents, Japanese
members of Unit 731 did provide a US official with a paper on their
"balloon project."  Harris book is an excellent reference work on the
activities on Unit 731 and 100.

        As an aside, much of the early material documenting the Soviet
charges or even Newman's book is extremely hard to find, almost as if they
had been deliberately removed from library book shelves.  When I was doing
some independent research on the subject at the Library of Congress, much
of the Soviet material was not on the shelf, and in one case, when I
requested a special search, the document was found, but catalogued with
another number.  Newman's book which I had borrowed from the Army Library
at the Pentagon, disappeared after I loaned it to a friend.  I did
relocate a copy at the Library of Congress as well as the West Point
library.  Anyway, just food for thought.

        Both Harris's book and Coox's book on Nomanhan mention Ishii's
water purification units or volunteers for sabotage training exercises
were active in the Nomanhan conflict.  The sabotage volunteers were active
in spreading BW materials among the civilian populace and amongst enemy
troops.

        Newman also postulates that the Japanese may have used biological
warfare in the conquest of the Philippines and against US forces on
Bataan.  He cites the inordinately high percentage (75%?) of US troops
with Malaria.

References:

_____, "Advocates of Plague," Current Digest of the Soviet Press, 1950
2(9), pp 28-29

_____, "Bring the War Criminals to Justice," New Times, 1950, 6(Feb 8), pp
3-5

_____, "Justice Demands International Trial of Japanese War Criminals,"
Information Bulletin, 1950, 10(4), pp 112-113; also Pravda Editorial of 4
Feb 1950

_____, "Trial of Former Japanese Soldiers charged with Preparing and Using
Bacteriological Weapons," Current Digest of the Soviet Press, 1950, 2(1),
pp 21-27

Coox, Alvin D., Nomonhan, Japan Against Russia, 1939, Stanford University,
Stanford, CA, 1985

Gunji, Yoko, Shogen 731 Ishii Butai, Tokuma Shoten, Tokyo, 1982

Gomer, Robert, John W. Powell, and Bert V.A. Roling, "Japan's Biological
Weapons: 1930-1945," Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, October 1981, pp
43-53

Jia, Daluo, "Diaries Revealed Details About Japan's Germ Warfare in
China," China News Daily, 1 January 1995 from Kyodo News Service of
12/30/94.

Kristof, Nicholas D., "Light Cast on Japan's Medical Atrocities," New York
Times (Denver Post), March 17, 1995, pp 2A

Materials on the Trial of Former Servicemen of the Japanese Army Charged
with Manufacturing and Employing Bacteriological Weapons, Foreign
Languages Publishing House, Moscow, 1950

Mayevsky, V., "Monstrous Crimes Committed by Japanese Barbarians,"
Information Bulletin, 1950, 10(3), pp 93

Mikesh, Robert C., Japan's World War II Balloon Bomb Attacks on North
America, Smithsonian, Washington, D.C., 1973

Mikesh, Robert C. & Shorzoe Abe, Japanese Aircraft 1910-1941, Naval
Institute Press, Annapolis, 1990

Morimura, Seiichi, Akuma no hoshoku, Banseisha, Tokyo, 1982

Morimura, Seiiti, Kukhnya Dyavola, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1983
(Russian translation of Morimura's book)

Newman, Barclay Moon, Japan's Secret Weapon, Current Publishing Co., 1944

Harris, Sheldon H.,  Factories of death : Japanese biological warfare,
1932-45, and the American cover-up, Routledge, New York, 1994

Powell, John W., "Japan's Germ Warfare - the US Cover-up of a War Crime,"
Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars," 1980, 12(4), pp 2-17

Raginskii, Mark, "Monstrous Atrocities of the Japanese Imperialists," New
Times, 1950(2), pp 3-7

Raginskii, Mark, "Khabarovskiy process nad japonskimi vrjennimi
presteysnikami," Sovetskoe Gosudarstvo I Pravo, 1950-51, 3, pp 8-25

Shimamura, Kyo, Sanzennin no seitai jikken, 1967

Shinso Ishii Saikinsen Butai, Tokuma Shoten, Tokyo, 1982

Takasugi, Shingo, 731-butai saikinsen no ishi o oe, Tokuma Shoten, Tokyo,
1982

Takasugi, Shingo, Nihon iryo no genzai.   1973

Williams, Peter and David Wallace, Unit 731: Japan's secret biological
warfare in World War II, Free Press, New York, 1989

Yamada, Seizaburo,  Saikinsen gunji saiban, 1974

Yoshinaga, Reiko,  Jintai jikken no kyofu, 1970

I am in digest mode, so it may take some time for me to generate
responses.

          Bob Edison
          redison@fdic.gov (daytime)
          redison@usa.net (evening)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:09:26 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

-deletions-

>      I believe the first people to be gassed at Auschwitz-
> Birkenau were 300 Polish and 700 Soviet prisoners of war.  Wasn't
> Auschwitz originally created as a concentration camp for Poles?

-deletions-

Lou,
I don't know if the above question was rhetorical or not, but just in
case you were wondering, yes, Auschwitz I was originally a camp for
Poles, and primarily remained that way. The first experiments with gas
were conducted there on prisoners in a prison "dungeon" hallway. I know
that the gas chamber that is at Auschwitz I today was constructed after
the war, but I can't remember if it was a reconstruction of one that was
blown, or if there never was one there. The main gas chambers and
cremetoria, of course, were at Auschwitz II, Birkenau, and they were
quite real. The above fact is often used by holocaust deniers (where they
can honestly tell naive listeners that "the gas chamber at Auschwitz was
constructed after the war," which is misleading but true.) I've gone on
enough. Hope this helps,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:56:04 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Doolittle's Raiders

Last night, I attended a lecture by Travis Hoover and Thomas Griffin
at the USAF museum at Wright Patterson AFB.  Hoover flew the second
B-25 of Doolittle's Raiders, while Griffin waas the navigator on the
9th aircraft to take off from Hornet.  Presuming that the overall
mission is well known to the listmembers, I thought I would instead
repeat a couple of the anecdotes the two related.  I take credit for
any mistakes or mis-interpretations.  These anecdotes are based on
a few quickly scribbled notes that I made during their talk.


>From Travis Hoover:

After takeoff, the flight from Hornet to Tokyo, while flying close to
the wavetops, was uneventful, allowing the crew time to reflect upon
the odds for their survival, which were not all that good.  Quote -
"This licked a little of the red off of our candy."

After landfall, Hoover remained at very low altitiude, about 50 feet
or so.  Following a road, they buzzed a number of bicyclists.  The
bicyclists assumed that the aircraft was Japanese and waved to them.

Intending to climb to 1500 feet to avoid the blast effect, Hoover
had only gotten to 900 feet before bombs away.  Debris from the
explosions rose higher than the aircraft.

Asked what techniques he'd used to stretch his fuel supply over the
China Sea, he replied that he'd leaned the engines out until they
coughed, then a little further until they gagged, then ran just a
little richer than that.

Almost completely out of fuel, and in near darkness and bad weather,
Hoover bellied in his B-25 into a Chinese rice paddy not far from the
shore line.  He remarked that it was the slickest, smoothest landing
that he'd made in his entire AF career.  His description was that it
was like landing on a soap bubble, with hardly a bump, sliding smoothly
to a stop.  Climbing out the hatch above his seat, Hoover jumped off
the aircraft knee-deep into the reason it was such a smooth landing,
the, uh... "night soil" that the Chinese routinely used to fertilize
their rice paddies.  He remarked that the the expression "slicker than
sh*t" was certainly tested and proven that day.

Hoover's crew attempted to destroy their aircraft with several small
thermite bombs.  The flight engineer placed one on top of the rubber
fuel bladder that had been installed in the aft fuselage in place of
the lower turret.  The bomb melted its way through the top and bottom
of the fuel bladder, through the aluminum skin underneath, and sank
into the paddy.  After another unsuccessful attempt in the bomb bay,
Hoover managed to flood the engines with gasoline using the booster
pump, and got the thermite bombs to ignite the gasoline and oil,
destroying the engines.


>From Tom Griffin:

Griffin's aircraft successfully bombed their assigned target, thought
at the time to be a tank factory.  They found out after the war that
they had delivered four 500 lb bombs to a facility of the Tokyo Gas
and Electric Company.

The earlier aircraft had achieved surprise, and bombed without any
significant opposition.  Being the ninth aircraft, the anti-aircraft
guns had begun firing at them by the time they arrived over Tokyo.
Since they were flying so low, the guns, situated on high ground,
were depressed below horizontal and were shooting down at them.

Griffin's aircraft managed to fly further into China than any of the
others.  They bailed out, again in darkness and bad weather, 300
miles into China.  He said his first indication that he was nearing
the ground was when a tree branch brushed his face.  His parachute
hung up in the tree with his feet just touching the ground, allowing
him to simply unbuckle his harness and walk away.

Asked about how Doolittle was allowed to go on the mission, considering
the morale loss should he be killed or captured, the two related this
story.  Doolittle was originally chosen to plan the mission and train
the crew.  He went to Washington to ask Hap Arnold for permission to
lead the mission.  Unwilling to tell him no, Arnold told him to also
get the permission of another general, whose office was nearby.  Upon
leaving Arnold's office, Doolittle ran as fast as he could to the
other general's office and just managed to secure his permission when
the phone rang.  It was Arnold, telling the other general to refuse
Doolittle permission to fly.

Asked how fast the aircraft were going at the end of Hornet's flight
deck, the two decided that the answer was about 80 knots of *airspeed*.
Since the carrier was turned into the wind and was steaming at maximum
speed, there was about 55 knots of airspeed already over the deck, so
the aircraft's speed relative to the flight deck was only about 35
knots, or about 40 miles per hour.


The final lecture in the 1994-95 series will be on 19 April.  The
speaker will be Charles Sweeney, the pilot of the B-29 "Bock's Car" when
it dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki.  The museum's doors re-open
for the lecture at 6:30 PM, with the lecture beginning an hour later
at 7:30.  The lecture is free and open to the public.  If anyone else
of the list plans to attend, drop me an email note and maybe we can
get together.


Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:12:08 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: AIDs discussion

>        Wow!  This has been some week!  This is my third official
>admonition in as many days!  This discussion on AIDs has absolutely
>nothing to do with WWII.  Keep it off the list.  Now.  Otherwise, I
>may get *really* cranky.

YO JOE!

Happy first anniversary! Hope ya don't stay cranky wid us dudes.

IMHO you'se doing a great job. KUTGW!

                                                        :-)Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag...
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |    But it sure beats the
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |       only known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:01:03 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Copenhagen Gestapo Raid

>From the DoD Newswire 22 March 1995

:VETERANS MARK ANNIVERSARY OF DENMARK BOMBING

     COPENHAGEN, March 21 - Veteran resistance fighters and
servicemen held ceremonies on Tuesday to mark the 50th anniversary of
a British bombing raid on Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen, a daring
attack which turned into tragedy.
     On the morning of March 21, 1945, six weeks before the liberation
of Denmark from five years of German occupation, British Royal Air
Force (RAF) planes destroyed the Nazi secret police building in
central Copenhagen.
     But the raid cost the lives of scores of innocent people,
including 86 pupils at a convent school, and became Denmark's worst
civilian disaster of World War Two. The school site was one of the
places where Tuesday's commmemorations were held.
     "It was absolutely necessary to carry out the action as we knew
the Gestapo were about to gain key knowledge about the operation of
the Danish resistance movement," said resistance leader Ole Lippmann,
who asked the RAF to make the raid.
     The attack was carried out by 48 planes in three groups, flying
at low height to avoid radar detection. One of the bombers crashed
beside a French convent school in a nearby district.
     The final wave of aircraft, seeing smoke billow from the crash,
believed it was the target and dropped their bombs there.
     They killed 99 civilians, including the 86 schoolchildren.
     "It was an appalling disaster that the French school was bombed,"
Lippmann told Danish Radio. "The warplanes were coming in so fast they
had no way of knowing they were bombing the wrong target."
     "It was a tragedy but what can you do? We knocked out the Gestapo
headquarters and a lot of schoolchildren paid the bill," RAF
Wing-Commander Edward Sismore, who took part in the raid and the
commemorations, told the newspaper Politiken.
     Five of the RAF planes were shot down and nine British airmen
were killed. Twenty Danes held in the Gestapo headquarters and 70
Germans were also killed.
     Memorial ceremonies were held at the school site, Copenhagen's
Roman Catholic Cathedral, a war cemetery and other locations.
     Neutral Denmark was occupied by the Nazis in 1940 without a
struggle and the government initially advocated a policy of peaceful
co-existence with the Germans.
     But German rule became more harsh. In 1943 the resistance
movement, aided by Britain, began openly defying the Nazis, staging an
increasing number of acts of sabotage.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:03:05 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Bill's article on the Jewish Holocaust

>                                                            ..... I know
> that the gas chamber that is at Auschwitz I today was constructed after
> the war, but I can't remember if it was a reconstruction of one that was
> blown, or if there never was one there.

Hi David,

If I may provide some details on this issue, I was fortunate to get
the complete story from Dr. Keren on Ken McVay's Holocaust list in
Canada a couple years back.  The gas chamber that is on display
currently at Auschwitz was in 1941 a homocidal gas chamber.  It was a
test unit to verify the feasability of gassing people and used carbon
monoxide at first.

After the tests and the construction of the Kremas at Birkenau the
small chamber at Auschwitz I was converted to an air raid shelter and
remained that way till the end of the war.  As such the Germans saw no
reason to destroy it as they did the Kremas so it survived.  Stalin,
later in the 1950s ordered it converted back into a gas chamber to
show visitors how the Nazis did business {never mind how Papa Joe did
business}.

It was this point that got revisionist author David Irving fined
10,000 DM by German courts for Insulting the Memory of the Dead when
he called the Gas Chamber at Auschwitz an "Attrappen" (mock up).  When
Irving appealed the case the next judge agreed that the fine was not
appropriate and bumped it to 30,000 DM!!! {Just when you thought
justice was dead} :-D

>        .... The above fact is often used by holocaust deniers (where they
> can honestly tell naive listeners that "the gas chamber at Auschwitz was
> constructed after the war," which is misleading but true.) I've gone on
> enough.  Hope this helps,
> David Rising

This is the very point I was making that the deniers use half truths
in furthering their platform.  We have gone on enough when the hate is
gone and the light of truth banishes the shadow of half truth.  Keep
up the good work, David!  It always helps!

Best Regards, Bill
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:59:15 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Canada War Criminal

>From the DoD Newswire 22 March 1995

=====

:CANADA MOVES TO DEPORT MAN ACCUSED OF WAR CRIMES

     TORONTO, March 21 - Canada has launched court
proceedings to deport a man in his 80s accused of being part of a Nazi
unit that executed Jews in German-occupied Latvia during World War
Two, a government official said on Tuesday.
     The government filed for a hearing in a federal court on Monday
seeking to strip Erichs Tobiass of Toronto of his Canadian citizenship
on grounds he misrepresented himself in entering the country after the
war.
     "The purpose is to revoke his citizenship," Roger White, a
spokesman for the Canadian Immigration Department in Ottawa, said.
     In a move hailed by Jewish groups, Canada announced this year it
was launching a new effort to bring suspected war criminals to justice
by deporting 12 people who had lied about their past to obtain
citizenship.
     The government said Tobiass is the first of four suspected war
criminals it will move to deport immediately.

=======



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:00:56 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>Julian,
>
>Thanks for doing some exploring to track dowin access to the WWII
>photos at the National Archives.  I had found the site while exploring
>the NARA resources last week and had copied down the address that
>Netscape showed for that spot, but I didn't try to get back in using
>only the address.
>
>Sorry for any inconvenience I caused.

Not a problem, not in the least. It was actually a good thing, as there's a
bunch of neat stuff to look in those Archives which I never would have
discovered otherwise. I spent a couple of hours last night looking at many
of the WWII photos, and feeling some of the anguish of the subjects, and
once again feeling grateful to my father's generation for saving the world
from that.

-----
Windows 96 == Macintosh 85

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:36:20 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:V1s and V2s

>From the DoD Newswire 23 March 1995

:FLYING BOMBS NEARLY BROKE GRITTY LONDONERS' WARTIME SPIRIT

     LONDON, March 22 - A sound like a motorcycle roaring
overhead was so commonplace in London 50 years ago that hardly anyone
bothered to look up.
     When the noise cut out, the silence caused panic in the streets
and warned Londoners death might be imminent.
     In the closing stages of World War Two, as British forces fought
their way across northern Europe, Germany tried to break the spirit of
families left in England with their weapons of vengeance: the V1 and
V2 flying bombs.
     Packed with 2,000 pounds (900 kg) of explosive, the pilotless
missiles caused more casualties and damage than the "blitz" bombing of
1940 and 1941.
     The advent of the V2 bomb -- the first rocket to break the sound
barrier -- had a crippling effect on morale and caused consternation
in the war cabinet of Winston Churchill.
     "The people have had nearly five years of war strain -- they will
resent this new trouble increasingly and want to know what we are
doing about it," Home Secretary (interior minister) Herbert Morrison
said in June 1944.
     "I have done and will do everything to hold up their courage and
spirit -- but there is a limit and the limit will come."
     Germany had been working on "Vergeltungswaffen" (weapons of
vengeance) since the early 1930s but the missiles became a top
priority only in 1943. The first V1 was launched against Britain on
June 13, 1944, from the French coastal region near Calais.
     The government, which had been expecting some kind of flying bomb
offensive, dismissed the opening salvo. "The mountain hath groaned and
brought forth a mouse," one minister reported.
     Two days later 200 missiles were launched in 24 hours and the
second Battle of Britain had begun in earnest. By the time a V2 killed
the last civilian in Britain on March 27, 1945, 8,958 people had died
and 24,504 had been injured in attacks.
     Survivors' memories of Hellfire Corner, the area around London
targeted by the bombs, focus on the noise of the V1s, nicknamed
"doodlebugs," and the terrifying silence of the V2s, or "Big Bens."
     "There are two schools of thought. One says the V1 was the real
horror because you could hear it coming whereas the V2 killed you in
bed. Others said with the V1s you had a chance, while the V2 sank all
hope," says historian Philip Ziegler.
     No one who heard a doodlebug's engine stop will ever forget the
deafening silence which preceded the explosion.
     Vera Brown, a young girl in 1945, had been taught by her mother
to count to 10 when she heard the engine of a V1 cut out.
     "I ran down an alley looking for somewhere to hide and saw a
woman in her front door. The doodlebug hit two streets away and the
woman and I were blown through the door, down the passageway and ended
up in a pile in the kitchen," Brown said.
     Britain's defence was the courage of fighter airmen, who tried to
fly alongside the bombs and tip them off course.
     More than 9,200 V1s were launched and 4,300 were destroyed on the
way. But the ones that got through caused carnage.
     On June 18, 1944, a V1 hit the chapel of London's Wellington
Barracks during a Sunday morning service, killing 58 people, including
the commanding officer of the Scots Guards.
     People began to doubt the government could stop the bombardment.
Many left London, sent their children away or slept underground, just
like during the blitz.
     Worse was to come in the form of the V2, packed with high
explosive and with a greater range than its predecessor.
     The first V2 hit without warning on September 8 in Chiswick, west
London. Residents heard a double bang, one from the rocket breaking
the sound barrier; a second from the explosion.
     Churchill's ministers kept silent about the new threat for weeks,
unofficially blaming the deadly explosions on gas leaks. The public
christened the V2s "flying gas mains."
     Only in November, as the allies began to overrun the V1 launching
sites, did Churchill admit the Germans had a secret weapon that
Britain could not effectively combat. Later that month a V2 hit a
store in New Cross, south-east London, killing nearly 200 people in
the worst incident of the V-bomb campaign.
     But the allied advance across Europe gradually wiped out the V1
batteries and forced the V2 launchers to move out of range. The last
V2 was launched from the Hague in the Netherlands on March 27,
crashing in Orpington, south-east of London.
     "We didn't hear the rocket coming so we didn't know a thing until
it hit," said Evelyn Driscoll. "I severed an artery in my temple and
there was blood everywhere. We were unlucky to get the last one having
gone through six years of war just fine."
     More unlucky was Ivy Millichamp, the last civilian to be killed
in Britain by enemy action. She had narrowly missed death by a V1 two
months earlier but was killed in Orpington.
     The last V1, launched from near Delft in the Netherlands landed
harmlessly in Britain on March 29. "The lights went out and the bombs
came down. But every man, woman and child in the country had not
thought of quitting the struggle. London can take it," Churchill said
on May 8, as the war ended.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:31:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Danny!

I guess I am your man. I corresponded personally with Mohnke, who is
still alive as far as I know.

What were you needing about him?


In particular, I am
> looking for anyone who has information on Gen. Wilhelm Mohnke,
> the last general to have seen Hitler alive and the commander
> of the 1st SS Panzer Division during the Ardennes operation.
> Evidently he still lives in Barsbuttal near Hamburg. Also, I
> am looking for anyone with information about Jochen Peiper's
> death in the summer of 1976 when he was killed by assassins
> unknown near Traves, France.

    I have some info on Peiper's untimely death.

    How can I help?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:37:33 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Swastikas over Elbrus?

Hello, Brad!

Sorry for butting in, but you might consult Paul Carrel's book

Scorched Earth: The War on the Eastern Front, 1942-1944. There is a
detailed account of it.

Hope this helps.

Terry

>         I noted with interest your post mentioning a photo of Germans
> raising the swastika banner over Mt Elbrus.  Do you have a source
> for that?

    I have seen the same pic, and I think I saw it  Carrel's
pictorial history of the war on the Russian Front. The name escapes
me for the moment. I think it is called Barbarossa, but I may be
mistaken.

    Hope this helps somewhat.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:18:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hello, All!

I haven't had time to ponder the points of the sought for opinions,
but I would like add a clarification here.

> > > Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> > > rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
> > you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin

    Yes. However, Zyklon B was originally used and marketed as a
cattle disinfectant. It was the firm of I.G. Farben with headquarters
in Frankfurt am Main that manufactured and marketed this product.


    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:23:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Hello, Alan!

    Would like to comment on your post.

> Hi Bill,... I liked it, but I am no authority. One fact which I think
> might be worth including is that which I learned from a PBS documentary
> the other night: that there were over 300 of these camps throughout
> Germany and captured Poland.  300 !  It puts it into scale. It certainly
> must've been an obvious thing to the German people. It isn't concievable
> how they remained oblivious to over 300 camps.

    There were 30 major camps with many subidiary holding camps which
fed the larger ones. The reason for this was not to overload the
system, hard as that may seem. Dachau, for example, had 30 subsidiary
camps located within a 75 mile radius of the place. This system
applied to the majority, but one such as Treblinka existed only to
exterminate the survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, and once that was
accomplished, the camp was destroyed.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:50:08 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <awothers@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Battleships

In message Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:18:28 CCS,
  Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>  writes:

> Well, we are on the subject now :-)
>
> Does anyone of you have any information about the battleships with
> hull numbers between BB-47 and BB-54 ? I believe they were cancelled
> or scrapped, but just can't get any info on them (names, fate, etc).
>
> Thanks in advance for your answers,
>
> Jorge Merino
>

Jorge:

BB 47 USS Washington (Maryland Class - not completed)
BB 48 USS West Virginia (Maryland Class - completed)

BB 49 USS South Dakota (cancelled)
BB 50 USS Indiana (cancelled)
BB 51 USS Montana (cancelled)
BB 52 USS North Carolina (cancelled)
BB 53 USS Iowa (cancelled)
BB 54 USS Massachusetts (Cancelled)

BB 49 to 54 were the South Dakota class that were cancelled as a result of
the Washington Treaty.  As designed they would have carried 12 16" guns, 16
6" guns and 6 3" AA guns.

Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: awothers@sfu.ca)
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:15:29 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: VJ Day

That "unknown sailor kissing the girl in Times Square on V-J Day..."

        The sailor was traced and identified a few years ago. I seem
to remember him being interviewed on TV at the time.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:50:02 -0800
From:    Allan_Wotherspoon <awothers@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: USS Colorado (BB-45)

In message Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:06:12 CCS,
  Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>  writes:

> Hi Gerald,
>
> I'm sorry I can't help much on the Colorado (BB-45), but I can tell you
> some little things about it.
>
> USS Colorado (BB-45) was one of the two California class battleships,
> built just shortly after WWI. The other was USS California (BB-44).
> They were modernized in the 20s, 30s, and early 40s, to find action
> by 1944, I believe. Modernization may have included removal of the
> primitive cage masts and replacement by tripod masts by early 30s.
> I can't confirm this, but the catapults may have been modernized in
> early 40s to adapt them for the Vought OS2U Kingfisher.
> I believe both battleships were sold for scrap in July 1959, but I
> can't confirm this now.

Jorge:

Actually it was a member of the Maryland Class and sister to the Maryland
and West Virginia.  Laid down May 29, 1919, launched March 22, 1921 and
completed August 30, 1923.


>
> About technical details, I believe they were about 33000 tons, with
> 21 knots speed. I guess their armament was composed by 12 x 14 inch
> guns in four turrets (like the Pennsylvania class).

Armament (as built) 8 16in L/45 guns, 12 5in/51 & 8 3in AA.  The 3in guns
were replaced by 5"/25 guns in 1928/29.


Allan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan J. Wotherspoon (e-mail: awothers@sfu.ca)
Burnaby, B.C. Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:36:54 -0600
From:    Rick Cox <lcox@AMERIS.CENTER.IL.AMERITECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hitler's Uniform On Display

>
> There was a Hitler flying suit on display at a small museum in Union, IL
> several years back.  It was captured by an American vet and was deemed
> authentic.  This was in the 85-88 time frame.  We used to do a
> reenactment up there once a year on memorial day until the museum got
> stingy and people got mad at them with the type of food they were
> serving us.
>
> The Museum is Called 7 Acres and is located just outside Union, IL which
> is 45 minutes to an hour west of Chicago--in between Chicago and
> Rockford.  I have not heard if it is still there.
>
If this is the same place, it still exists today.  It is currently called
Antique Village and is located in Union, IL.  Near Marengo, and close to the
Intersection of I-90 and IL-20.  There is a small but good assortment of
WW-I, WW-II and other historical items there.  It's only about 20 minutes
from my home, so I could probably obtain more info if there is any interest.

Toujours Pret!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:06:52 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIDS As Biological & Psy...

The earliest documented case of AIDS occurred in England (Birmingham,
I think) in 1959. The earliest documented case in the United States
was in St. Louis around 1967. The technology that might have been
used to produce an AIDS type disease did not exist before the late
1970s, and it is doubtful that something as sophisticated as this
virus, with its incredible adaptability, could be manufactured
at all, even today. So much for the time frame.

Note to Joe Barone: I realize this is WAY off list, but I think this
is the kind of story that has to be scotched when- and wherever it
appears. I won't engage in discussions on the issue on-list, but would
like to be able to present facts that refute obvious nonsense should
it come up.

Thanks,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:18:44 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: VJ Day

Hmmmmm. As Italy was defeated in 1943, could 7 May 45 be considered
"Victory over the Wehrmacht" Day? And if VW Day is valid, would
Detroit, Honda/Nissan et al, Janis Joplin and the Beemer boys demand
equal time?

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:21:06 EST
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

Bill,
   Good article.  As some said, a good introduction to those who don't
know too much.  Here are some of my comments:

In one paragraph, "With his twisted world view and his skill as an orator,
Hitler..." you wrote about the Stab in the Back myth.  While I am not
going to deny that this was a factor in his and the Nazi rise to power,
it grossly simplifies things.  It is, I think, wrong to pin Hitler's
success merely to anti-semitism.  Economic conditions, the weak Weimar
government, and of course the harsh Versailles Treaty were other reasons
that people voted for Hitler and the Nazis.  We have had several discussions
on the list about the extent in which the German people were responsible
for Hitler.  Whatever you may think about German complicity, the decisive
event in the seizure of power was the appointment of Hitler by Hindenburg;
and Hitler was not appointed because of his anti-Semitism.

   The Einsatzgruppen did more than kill Jews.  Their mission was essentially
to secure the occupied territories against "Jews, partisans, and potential
enemies of the Reich".  I think they killed people in many other ways
besides anti-tank ditches.  How about those worthless gas trucks?

If you don't mind, I'd just like to comment about one section, though
this is not a criticism on your article.  I realize that it can only
be so long - as you know, each sentence alone is worthy of a book.  So
this is just something for you to think about.

The Nurenburg Laws are infamous and are held up by most historians as
proof that the Germans were going to be exterminating the Jews.  However,
it seems that this is not entirely correct.  After the Seizure of Power,
there were three power bases or ideologies: the conservatives who didn't
dislike the Nazis but sought to control them; these persons were very
legal minded and order-oriented.  Then there were the silent revolutionairies
such as Himmler that wanted to overthrow the old Prussian conservative caste
but sought to do so by subtle methods and not by antogonizing Hitler (who
needed conservative support).  Then there were the radical revolutionairies,
who wanted a "Second Revolution" to sweep away the old order.  This was
lead by Roehm and was, as most people know, stamped out by the other two
factions in the Night of the Long Knives.

I believe the Nurenberg laws were an attempt by the conservative group to
actually help the Jews, or at least restrain the Himmler faction.  Beforehand,
both the SS and the SA were thought of as uncontrollable and anarchic.  This
very much upset the legal and propietary nature of the Reich Ministries of
Justice and the Interior.  Imagine what would have happened if the laws
were not passed: the SS and the SA would have been able to persecute Jews
and others at random.  By placing their actions under a legal umbrella,
the two ministries had something of a say in what went on.  This, at least,
was their thought.  In the end, Himmler prevailed and the Nurenberg laws
played into his hands rather than against them.

Good luck,
William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:05:22 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: PT Boat info request and prospective member.

Forwarded message:
> From RFAS8815@URIACC.URI.EDU Fri Mar 24 07:55 CST 1995
> Date:         Fri, 24 Mar 95 08:48:45 EST
> From: Ralph Fasano <RFAS8815@URIACC.URI.EDU>
> Subject:      WWII-L info
> To: Lou Coatney <MSLRC@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
>
Hi Lou- I've read your posts on SOVHIST-L with great interest. You always have
something interesting and informative to say. I decided to write to you for
2 reasons: 1. how can I subscribe to the WWII-List?  and 2. I'm writing a
paper about the Herreshoff Mfg. Co. of Bristol, RI. They manufactured many of
America's Cup defenders late in the last century and on into the 1930's. During
WWII however, they went into war production, making PT boats and APC'c. It is
my understanding that ALL of the PT's went to Russia as part of Lend-Lease.
How might I find out what happened to them and how they were used once they
were turned over to the Soviets?
Ralph Fasano   rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu

I've told Ralph how to join.  Is there anyone better able to help him
  on the PT boats?  Isn't there a new Maritime/Naval History list up
  and running somewhere?

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:47:34 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Re: PT Boat info request and prospective member.

>I've told Ralph how to join.  Is there anyone better able to help him
>  on the PT boats?  Isn't there a new Maritime/Naval History list up
>  and running somewhere?

If there is please post this information.
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 18:48:56 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

You wrote:

>
>>There is a collection of ca. 200 WWII photos in a collection called
>>"Pictures of World War II" at the National Archives.  The www site is
>>http://gopher.nara.gov:70/Oh/inform/dc/audvis/still/ww2photo.html
>>
>
>I tried to hit this server several times but I got a 403 code - Access
>denied or file does not exist.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Ron,

I was in part of this collection yesterday.  Try going in at the
gopher.nara.gov level, and work your way down.  The server may have been
down for a time.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 18:57:24 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

Mike,

How about putting copies of the images on a Web Server so the rest of
the 'net community could view them?

Ed Kettler
deradler@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 19:29:40 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>>Thanks for doing some exploring to track dowin access to the WWII
>>photos at the National Archives.  I had found the site while exploring
>>the NARA resources last week and had copied down the address that
>>Netscape showed for that spot, but I didn't try to get back in using
>>only the address.
>>
>>Sorry for any inconvenience I caused.
>
>Not a problem, not in the least. It was actually a good thing, as there's a
>bunch of neat stuff to look in those Archives which I never would have
>discovered otherwise. I spent a couple of hours last night looking at many
>of the WWII photos, and feeling some of the anguish of the subjects, and
>once again feeling grateful to my father's generation for saving the world
>from that.

Apology to the list members. I meant that reply for Terry but forgot to
click the proper button.

-----
Windows 96 == Macintosh 85

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 19:40:05 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Greenland P-38's

You wrote:

>
>Steve - can you repost the WWW site with the P-38 restoration site
pictures. TIA
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>Ron Babuka
>Cornell University
>CIT - Information Resources
>Ithaca, New York 14850
>(607) 254-6492
>
>Fax: 607-254-6404
>http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html
>
>
Ron,

The pictures are currently at:

        FTP:
        hepnrc.hep.net in /history/ww2/p38

        WWW:
        http://hepnrc.hep.net/ftp/history/ww2/p38/

They will soon be available at:

        WWW:
        http://quokka.cc.uq.oz.au/www/glacier-girl/home.html




--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:48:24 -0600
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: GEN USS Ward & Midget Sub

Continuing the thread about the sinking of the midget sub.  I once
learned that upon sinking the sub the skipper of the Ward sent the following
message to Operations at Pearl.  "Sighted sub, sank same."  The key word
in this message was "sighted".  As I understand it, there had been several
possible submarine contacts reported over the last few days.  None of
these had been confirmed as being submarines and a couple of
them had proven to be something else.  Some had resulted in
depth charge attacks taking place, but no indication of a sub being
destroyed.

Because of this the Captain of the Ward intended wording his
message to indicate the fact that this referred to a sub that had been
sighted visually, and verified.  None of this Sonar stuff which he felt
wasn't being taken too seriously back at Pearl.

His hope was the Operations officer at Pearl would pick up on this
immediately.

Unfortunately it just didn't happen.

I'm sorry I don't have any sources to quote on this, just my swiss cheese
memory.  The message however "Sighted sub, sank same" is one that was
well known, and quoted occasionally by us ASW types, when I was in the Navy in
the late 50s.

Maybe some of you can either confirm or refute this.

+==============================+=============================================+
| DAN COX                      | "I have made this letter longer than usual, |
| REPUBLIC, MO                 | only because I have not had the time to     |
| dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us | make it shorter."--Blaise Pascal            |
+==============================+=============================================+

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 24 Mar 1995 22:33:38 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Soviet Tactical Practices:  James Sulzen *and* Tobias v.G.

James Sulzen:

Look in:

1. VOENNO ISTORICHESKI ZHURNAL
         Tobias v.G., take note!
  Incidentally!  Its best articles have been translated into
English -- or American, anyway  :-) -- and distributed via the
U.S. Federal (documents) depository system to your research
library.  Look for JPRS translations ... PrEx3.10: ... something.

2. SOVIET MILITARY REVIEW often featured small unit actions
  from The Great Patriotic War.  Detailed information was
  secondary, but now and then you find something fairly
  descriptive ... like on the siege of Brest, June-July 1941.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 23 Mar 1995 to 24 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 17 messages totalling 1171 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Opinions wanted!! (2)
  2. Feedback on Bill's articl...
  3. Airshows in NE USA
  4. Location of Pictures and Maps
  5. [INF] USAAF 25 MAR 45
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 25-MAR-1945
  7. [INF] USAAF 26 MAR 45
  8. [INF] USAAF 27 MAR 45
  9. wwii
 10. PT Boat info request and prospective member.
 11. INF: USN Chronology 03-25-95
 12. Japan's Atrocities (vs. Allied atrocities) (fwd)
 13. ADMIN:  Grammar and spelling on WWII-L (2)
 14. GEN USS Ward & Midget Sub
 15. Raid on Cabanatuan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 01:05:37 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

In a message posted by Bill Huber, I read:

> > Zyclon B was a product on the market in Germany as an industrial
> > rat killer under a patent held by a German firm.
> you should mention the firm, I think that it was IG Farbin

I.G. Farben sold the patent to two other firms, which then manufactured the
pellets used in the death camps. The two other firms were Tesch/Stabenow and
Degesch. (From Raul Hilberg, *Commandant of Auschwitz*.)

Incidentally, not to get into a whole 'nother grammar thing :-), but since
you're planning to publish this paper, I thought I'd mention that everywhere
else I've seen it, including my own photographs of the tins in the Auschwitz
museum, the gas has been spelled Zyklon B, with a K.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 01:05:41 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Bill's articl...

David Rising wrote:

>The first experiments with gas
were conducted there on prisoners in a prison "dungeon" hallway.

As I recall from my visit there, it's a large cell down in a basement.
"Dungeon" is a real good word for it. Like the French word used to describe
some dungeons -- "oubliette," a place where people are forgotten.

>I know that the gas chamber that is at Auschwitz I today was constructed
after the war, but I can't remember if it was a reconstruction of one that
was blown, or if there never was one there.

The crematorium you can see at the Auschwitz Museum was adapted for use as an
air-raid shelter in mid-1944, and was found by Russian forces in that
condition when they reached the camp. That's why the Germans didn't feel they
had to blow it up. It was  reconstructed in its original form after the war.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 07:26:00 CST
From:    Larry Goldberg <lmgold@MCS.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted!!

>Hi Everybody,
>
>Please allow me to probe the minds of my friends and  colleagues here
>on the list for a few moments and solicit comments as to the accuracy
>and content of the following article.  I plan to submit it to our base
>paper here at Kelly to accompany a display I plan to do in April.
>
>Thanks for your corrections and comments
>
>Cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>
--- clip

Bill,

A good article and very readable overview of the area.

The only suggestion I have is that you might consider referencing some of
the points made by Joseph Cardinal Bernadin in his speech in Israel this
last week.  The Church's involvement (or lack thereof) is/was a significant
factor in this matter as well as anti-Semitism in general.

Thanks for sharing your article with the list.

Larry


            *  My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.  *

    Unfortunately (for you), these views represent those of my employer.
                Fortunately (for me), I am self employed.

       Larry Goldberg / lmgold@mcs.com / 74407.322@CompuServe.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:09:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Airshows in NE USA

           AIRSHOWS IN THE NORTHEASTERN UNITED STATES, 1995
                       ISSUE 2, March 25, 1995

This is the latest list of airshows in the Northeastern U.S. that I have
been able to compose.  The list is sorted by state and any military aerobatic
team appearing is noted.  Also noted is any known telephone numbers; please
call the telephone number listed for further information. I will gladly
update this list with any additions, changes and/or deletions.  Just e-mail
me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com

REASON FOR REISSUE:

 1. Add show at Ft. Meade, Maryland
 2. Add show at McGuire AFB, New Jersey
 3. Add two shows in Duchess County, New York (anyone confirm??)
 4. Add show at Niagara Falls, New York
 5. Add show at Plattsburgh, New York
 6. Correct date for White Lake, New York show
 7. Add show at Falls Creek, Pennsylvania
 8. Add two shows at Manassas, Virginia
 9. Add show at NAS Norfolk, Virginia
10. Add Jul 4 show at Norfolk, Virginia

CONNECTICUT
-----------
New Haven: Sep 9 and 10, New Haven Airfest (203) 481-3769

DELAWARE
--------
New Castle: Oct 14 and 15, Wilmington Air Show

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
--------------------
No Shows

MAINE
-----
NAS Brunswick: Jul 22 and 23, Great State of Maine Airshow (USAF
  Thunderbirds), (207) 921-2256

MARYLAND
--------
Anapolis (USNA): May 29, Commissioning Week Air Show (Blue Angels) (410)
  293-2738
Andrews AFB: May 19 to 21, DOD Open House (USAF Thunderbirds on 20 and 21)
  (301) 981-9692
College Park: Sep 16 and 17, College Park Air Fair, (301) 864-5844
Fort Meade: May 18, Armed Forces Week (Golden Knights)
Frederick: Aug 25 thru 27, Wings of Freedom Airshow (USAF Thunderbirds on
  26th and 27th) (716) 243-2255
Hagerstown: Sep 9 and 10, Great Hagerstown Airshow (301) 791-3333
NAS Patuxent River: May 27, Air Expo '95 (Blue Angels), (301) 826-1141

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
Hanscom AFB: Jun 10 and 11, Open House (USAF Thunderbirds) (617) 377-9003
NAS South Weymouth: Jun 3 and 4, Open House (617) 786-2949
Otis ANGB: Aug 5 and 6, Cape Cod Airshow, (508) 457-1388

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------
No Shows

NEW JERSEY
----------
McGuire AFB: Sep 9 and 10, Open House (609) 724-2358
Pittstown: Aug 4 thru 6, The Magic of Alexandria Balloon Festival, (908)
  735-0870
Sussex: Aug 25 thru 27, Sussex Air Show (201) 875-7337

NEW YORK
--------
Batavia: Aug 18 thru 20, Wings of Eagles Air Show (716) 243-2242
Duchess County: May 12 to 14, Airshow
Duchess County: Sep 30 and Oct 1, Airshow
Elmira: Jul 15 and 16: NY State Int'l Air Show (607) 739-5621
Long Island: May 29, New York Air Show (516) 737-2190
Monticello: Jul 8, Monticello Airshow
Niagara Falls: Jun 24 and 25, Niagara Falls Air Show (Golden Knights) (716)
  236-2198
Plattsburgh: Jun 10 and 11, Plattsburgh Air Show (Golden Knight) (518)
  565-5923
Poughkeepsie: May 13 and 14, Mid Hudson Valley Balloon Festival
Schnectedy: Oct 9, Airshow
Scotia: Sep 9 and 10, Empire State Aeroscience Museum Flight, (518)
  399-0111
Wappinger Falls: May 12 and 13, The Great Hudson Valley Balloon Race, (914)
  462-2600
White Lake: Jul 8 thru 10, Sullivan Co. Air Show (USA Golden Knights) (914)
  794-2211

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Avoca: Aug 12 and 13, Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Int'l Air Show, (717) 655-3077
Beaver Falls: Aug 12 and 13, Beaver Co "Catch the Spirit" (412) 846-9922
Erie: Jul 15 and 16, Erie Int'l Airshow, (814) 833-7343
Falls Creek: Jul 22 and 23, Dubois-Jefferson Co "Aviation Days" (412)
  846-9922
Franklin: Jul 8 and 9, Wings Over Venango Air and Trade Show, (814)
  432-5333
Lock Haven: Aug 10 thru 13, 1995 Sentimental Journey to Cub Haven "WASPs
  Honored", (717) 748-8238
NAS Willow Grove: Jun 17 and 18, Sounds of Freedom (215) 443-6084
Philadelphia: Jun 23 thru 25, Welcome America Air Show (215) 230-8562
Quakertown: Jun 3 and 4, Quakertown Air Festival (215) 997-9519
Reading: Jun 3 and 4, WWII Commenorative Weekend-The Mid Atlantic Air
  Museum (610) 372-7333
Reading: Aug 19 and 20, Reading Aerofest (USN Blue Angels) (215) 372-4666
Williamport: Sep 16 and 17, Williamsport-Lycoming Co Air Show, (717)
  368-3233

RHODE ISLAND
------------
North Kingstown: Jun 10 and 11, RI ANG Air Show (USN Blue Angels) (401)
  886-1423

VERMONT
-------
No Shows

VIRGINIA
--------
Langley AFB: Oct 7, Open House (USAF Thunderbirds), (804) 764-2018
Manassas: May 23, DARE Show (Golden Knights)
Manassas: Sep 9 and 10, Manassas Air Show Classic (703) 250-4619
NAS Norfolk: April 29 and 30, International Azalea Festival (804) 445-6647
NAS Oceana: Sep 23 and 24, Oceana Air Show (USN Blue Angels), (804)
  433-3131
Norfolk: Jun 2 to 4, Harborfest (804) 627-5309
Norfolk: Jul 4, The Nationsbank Town Point Air Show over the Elizabeth
  River at Town Point Park (804) 441-2345

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
Clarskburg: Sep 17, Airshow

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 08:11:00 CST
From:    Larry Goldberg <lmgold@MCS.COM>
Subject: Re: Location of Pictures and Maps

>Looking for FTP sites and Directories where I can find WWII photos and maps.
> I'm looking to put together a report and I do not have a scanner.
>
---clip

Dennis,

You might want to take a look at the Patch School D-Day Page on the WWW.
It provides access to a wide selectionn of maps, documents, photos
(including materials from the National Archives), movies and sounds related
to D-Day and has pointers to other sites.

The URL (address) is:  http://192.253.114.31/D-Day/Table_of_Contents.html.
They also provide direct access top these graphic files through their ftp
site at:  ftp://192.253.114.3/pub/D-Day.

One of the things that I find interesting in their files is the information
from Stars and Stripes.

You might also take a look at E-Hawk (Electronic Headquarters for the
Acquisition of War Knowledge) which has pointers to all sorts of "stuff."
URL is: http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/history/ehawk.

Last, check out The Association for History and Computing Home Page which
has extensive lists of resources available on the Web and pointers to them.
URL is:  http://grid.let.rug.nl/ahc/welcome.html.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Larry


            *  My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.  *

    Unfortunately (for you), these views represent those of my employer.
                Fortunately (for me), I am self employed.

       Larry Goldberg / lmgold@mcs.com / 74407.322@CompuServe.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:25:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 25 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 25 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 20+ B-25s and 150+
fighters, operating individually and in flights of up to 8 aircraft,
continue attacks on numerous targets including river, road, and rail traffic,
airfields, troop concentrations, storage areas, horses, and gun positions
throughout S and E China; the detachment of the 22d Bombardment Squadron
(Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium), operating from Peishiyi with
B-25s, returns to base at Yangkai.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 26 P-47s support forces of
the Chinese 50th Division in the Hsipaw area; 44 fighter-bombers and 14 B-25s
attack troops and supplies and hit targets of opportunity along roads behind
the battleline in C Burma; 557 transport sorties are flown to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 913: 1,009 bombers and 341 fighters are dispatched to hit seven oil
plants and a tank factory in Germany; they claim 6-4-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4
B-24s and 1 P-51 are lost:
  1. 272 B-24s are sent to hti the Ehmen (59), Hitzacker (127) and Bucken
(57) oil depots; they claim 2-4-9 aircraft; 4 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged
beyond repair and 19 damaged; 16 airmen are KIA, 2 WIA and 39 MIA. Escorting
are 223 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 4-0-3 aircraft in the air.
  2. 737 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil plants but bad weather during the
assembly and the increasing possibility of adverse conditions causes the
mission to be cancelled; 3 B-17s are damaged beyond repair and 9 airmen are
KIA.
  3. 47 of 48 P-51s escort Ninth AF B-26s.
  4. 24 P-51s fly a fighter-bomber mission against the Schmalge ammunition
dump; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  5. 11 P-51s fly a scouting mission claiming 0-0-1 aircraft in the air.
  6. 16 P-15s escort 8 F-5s and 3 Spitfires on photo reconnaissance missions
over Germany.
  Mission 914: 10 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany and the Netherlands during
the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, the 9th Bombardment
Division hits 4 communications centers, 3 marshalling yards, and targets of
opportunity, including flak positions; fighters fly escort, armed
reconnaissance, and missions against several ground targets; fighters support
the US 79th Infantry Division as it pushes 2 miles (3.2 km) to the E of the
Rhine River (SE of Wesel), the III and VII Corps as they begin their breakout
assault toward Altenkirchen and in the Epgert and Willroth areas, and the XII
Corps as it establishes bridgeheads on the Main River in the Hanau and
Aschaffenburg areas.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Czechoslovakia, 650+ B-17s
and B-24s strike 2 airfields and a tank works at Prague (the patterns of the
bombs also hit 2 other nearby airfields) and an airfield at Cheb. Alternate
targets that are bombed include Wels, Austria and Udine Airfield, Italy.
P-38s and P-47s escort the bombers, and sweep and strafe the Nurnberg-
Eibelstadt-Wurzburg-Regensburg, Germany areas, and fly reconnaissance
operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 24/25
Mar, A-20s and A-26s continue intruder missions, attacking Po River crossings
and railroad and motor transport targets; P-47s, during the day, raid
railroad bridges and lines, hitting targets at Lavis, Casarsa della Delizia,
San Michele all'Adige, Pavia, Santa Margherita d'Adige, and other points in
the Po Valley and NE Italy, and bomb fuel dumps N of the battle area; 6
medium bomber missions against bridges and fills in Italy and Austria are
ineffective because of bad weather.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: During the night of 25/26 Mar, 5 B-24s from Guam
Island hit Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima Island. 23 B-24s from Angaur Island
bomb defenses on Cebu Island. The US Marines complete the reduction of the
final resistance pocket on Iwo Jima Island.
    VII Fighter Command: On Chichi Jima Island, 16 Iwo-based P-51s bomb and
strafe Susaki Airfield, and naval and radar installations; 16 more follow
with attacks on a radar station and personnel concentration on the island;

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Cebu City on Cebu
Island is thoroughly pounded by nearly 70 B-24s. On Luzon Island, other B-24s
hit Legaspi, and B-25s and fighter-bombers fly numerous ground support
missions, especially between Montalban and Laguna de Bay. B-25s attack
Pandanan Island, Philippine Islands. The 6th Combat Cargo Squadron, 2d Combat
Cargo Group, moves from Biak, New Guinea to Dulag, Leyte Island with C-46s;
and the 339th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter Group, ceases operating from
Morotai Island with P-38s and returns to base at Puerto Princesa, Palawan
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

25/1424Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:29:30 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 25-MAR-1945

On 25-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the British 2nd Army sector, the British XII Corps
liberates Wesel. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the VII and III Corps
continue attacking in the area between Cologne and Remagen. In the 3rd
Army sector, the VIII Corps attacks across the Rhine. The 87th Division
crosses the east bank of the Rhine between Braubach and Boppard. The 6th
Division crosses the Rhine opposite Oppenheim and heads toward Frankfurt.
Elements of the 4th Armoured Division reach Aschaffenburg and Hanau.

Eastern Front - The 3rd White Russian Front captures Heiligenbeil in East
Prussia. The 2nd White Russian Front overruns Oliva, a suburb of Danzig.
The Russian offensive from Hungary towards Austria broadens as troops of
the 2nd Ukraine Front start west to the right of the 3rd Ukraine Front and
captures Esztergom, Felsoegall and Tata.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, elements of the 1st Cavalry Division
push from Santo Tomas toward Tanauan.

Iwo Jima - The final pocket of resistance on Iwo Jima is eliminated by
elements of the 5th Marine Division.

Ryukyu Islands - Pre-invasion aerial and naval bombardment continues,
though mine-sweeping operations prevent naval surgace vessels from moving
up to whithin effective rank of Okinawa. Underwater demolition teams go
into action.

The Homefront
-------------
New Tire Priorities - The Office of Price Administration has announced a
new priority list for passenger car tires. Buyers are divided into four
groups, with emergency and critical war industry workers first.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:36:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 26 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 26 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 2 missions, each by 4
B-25s, attempt to bomb canneries on the Masugawa and the Hayakegawa Rivers;
fighters drive off the Masugawa mission and the other mision cannot find the
target due to weather. 4 B-24s bomb the Kataoka naval base on Shimushu Island.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 15 B-25s and 80+ fighter-
bombers, operating individually or in small flights, continue to disrupt
mobility and supply lines throughout S and E China, hitting numerous targets
of opportunity chiefly trucks, tanks, supply areas, horses, troops, artillery
pieces; several of the fighter-bombers also considerably damage Puchou
Airfield.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 28 P-47s and 10 B-25s
operating over and behind the C Burma battlelines attack artillery positions,
troop concentrations, road communications, and supply areas; 522 air supply
sorties are being completed throughout the. day.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 915: 337 B-17s and 527 P-51s are dispatched to attack oil and tank
plants in Germany; targets are bombed visually despite poor weather; no
aircraft are lost:
  1. 185 B-17s are sent to hit the synthetic oil plant at Zeitz (12); 130
others hit the Vomag tank factory at Plauen (130), the secondary; targets of
opportunity are Meiningen (25) and Wurzburg (11); 1 B-17 is damaged beyond
repair and 25 damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 5 WIA. Escorting are 194 of 238
P-51s.
  2. 152 B-17s are sent to hit the Vomag tank factory at Plauen (139);
targets of opportunity are Oelsnitz (12) and Markt Erlbach (1); 3 B-17s are
damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; 18 airmen are KIA. 98 of 121 P-51s
escort.
  3. 110 of 118 P-51s fly a freelance fighter mission for the bombers.
  4. 26 of 27 P-51s escort 12 F-5s and 1 Spitfire on photo reconnaissance
missions over Germany.
  5. 22 of 23 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  HQ 7th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and the 22d Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron move from Mount Farm to Chalgrove, England with F-5s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, around 300 A-20s, A-26s
and B-26s hit marshalling yards at Wurzburg, Gemunden, and Flieden, the town
of Ruckers, and 2 targets of opportunity; fighters escort the bombers, fly
armed reconnaissance, hit special targets and support various ground forces
along the front; fighter support is accorded the US 2d, 3d, 7th, and 9th
Armored Divisions in the Hachenburg, Montabaur, and Limburg areas, the XII
Corps along the Main River from Frankfurt/Main to Aschaffenburg, and Ninth
Army elements in the bridgehead area around Gahlen. Units moving from Belgium
to Germany: HQ IX Tactical Air Command from Verviers to Bruhl; HQ 48th
Fighter Group and the 492d, 493d and 494th Fighter Squadrons from St Trond to
Kelz with P-47s. The 72d Liaison Squadron, Ninth AF (attached to Sixth Army
Group), moves from Sarreguemines, France to Kaiserlautern, Germany with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 500+ B-17s and B-24s, escorted
by P-51s and P-38s attack marshalling yards at Wiener-Neustadt, Strasshof,
Bruck an der Leitha, and Neunkirchen, Austria, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia and
Szombathely, Hungary; 46 P-38s dive-bomb the bridge at Ybbs, Austria while 26
P-51s, covered by 13 others, strafe rail traffic in the Wiener-Neustadt,
Austria-Vienna-Budejovice, Czechoslovakia areas; other P-38s and P-51s fly
reconnaissance operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather grounds the
medium bombers and hampers operations in general; during the night of 26/27
Mar, 3 A-20s hit bridges at Cittadella and Verona; fighter-bombers, operating
on a reduced scale, hit communications targets in the W Po Valley, cutting a
road bridge and several railroads, and attacking several targets of
opportunity.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: During the night of 26/27 Mar, 3 B-24s from Guam
Island on individual snooper strikes hit Chichi Jima Island. 9 Guam Island-
based B-24s pound Marcus Island in the N Pacific. The enemy makes a final
attack on Iwo Jima in an early morning attempt to infiltrate a bivouac area.
The capture and occupation phase of Iwo ends at 0800 hours when Major General
James E Chaney becomes Island Commander.
    VII Fighter Command: On Chichi Jima Island, 21 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island
bomb and strafe Susaki Airfield while 16 bomb and strafe weather and radar
stations and the town of Kitamura. HQ 21st Fighter Group arrives at Central
Field, Iwo Jima from Hawaii; the 72d and 531st Fighter Squadrons, 21st
Fighter Group, move from Mokuleia Field, Hawaii to Iwo Jima with P-51s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers bomb Legaspi and targets in the area
including a fuel dump at Camalig; fighter-bombers hit numerous targets in the
N at Solvec Cove, Baguio, Mankayan, Sante Fe, and other areas; in the SW,
A-20s and fighter-bombers support US ground forces, hitting Ternate, and
towns in Tayabas and Batangas Provinces. B-24s and A-20s in the C Philippine
Islands hit Cebu City and E coast targets on Cebu Island. B-24s hit Takao,
Formosa. The 6th Combat Cargo Squadron, 2d Combat Cargo Group, moves from
Biak Island to Dulag, Leyte Island with C-46s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

25/1434Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:43:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 27 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 27 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  Lancaster, Avro
  Mosquito, deHavilland
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 25 B-25s hit towns, rail, road, and
river traffic, and targets of opportunity around Kweilin, Liuchow, Hengyang,
Hochih, Kaifeng, Anlu, Ishan, Kiyang, and the Siang Chiang Valley, China and
Nanyang, Burma. 44 fighter-bombers hit trucks, trains, sampans, power
facilities, and other targets around Nanyo, China and Hongay, Son Tay, Na
Cham, Cao Bang, Lang Son, Moc Chau, Muong Hang, and Bac Quang, French
Indochina. In China, 28 fighter-bombers knock out a bridge NE of Liuchow, hit
the town of Szeenhsien, and attack ammunition dumps and road and river
traffic around Hochih, Ishan, Liuchow, Pingnam, Liangfeng, and Kweilin.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 80+ fighter-bombers over
the battle areas and behind enemy lines in C Burma pound troops and supplies
at several locations including the Mong Kung, Man Namkat, Nam-yang, Tonglau,
Ho-na, Hkai-wun, Longwai, Monglawng, Laihka, and Namlan areas. Transports are
exceptionally active, flying 635 sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Operations during the day include:
  1. 110 of 115 P-47s and P-51s escort 262 RAF Lancasters attacking
Paderborn, Germany.
  2. 2 F-5s, escorted by 4 P-51s, fly a photo reconnaissance mission over
Brunswick and Paderborn.
  Mission 916: 9 of 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): HQ XII Tactical Air Command moves
from France to Germany.
    Ninth Air Force: Weather cancels 9th Bombardment Division operations. In
Germany, IX Tactical Air Command fighters patrol the US First Army front; the
XIX Tactical Air Command hits marshalling yards, patrols the Third Army
front, flies area cover from Koblenz to Aschaffenburg to Worms, and supports
the VIII and XII Corps along the Rhine River in the Wiesbaden area and the
Main River in the Frankfurt/Main-Aschaffenburg area. The 14th Liaison
Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command (attached to Twelfth Army Group), moves
from Luxembourg City, Luxembourg to Oberstein, Germany with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to 3 P-38 reconnaissance flights.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather cancels all combat
operations. The 416th Night Fighter Squadron, 62d Fighter Wing, moves from
Pisa to Pontedera, Italy with Mosquitos.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: During the night of 27/28 Mar 5 B-24s, flying
individual strikes from Guam Island, hit Susaki Airfield on Chichi Jima
Island.
    VII Fighter Command: On Chichi Jima, 16 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island bomb
ammunition stores and the town of Kitamura.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown:
  Mission 46: 151 of 165 Mariana Islands-based B-29s flying the first of many
raids in support of the impending Okinawa Island invasion, hit Tachiarai Army
Airfield and Oita Naval Airfield and the Omura aircraft factory on Kyushu
Island, Japan; 3 others hit alternate targets; they claim 1-2-4 Japanese
aircraft.
  Mission 47: 92 of 102 B-29s mine Shimonoseki Strait between Honshu and
Kyushu Islands during the night of 27/28 Mar; 2 others hit alternate targets;
they claim 1-0-0 Japanese aircraft; 3 B-29s are lost; this is first of many
mining operations by B-29s in Japanese waters.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers bomb Legaspi, the Balete area, the
Ipo-Siniloan sector, the Batangas area, and several other locations
throughout Luzon; fighters support the US amphibious landings on Caballo
Island in Manila Bay. In the C Philippine area B-24s bomb Negros Island
airfields while B-25s and P-38s hit the Cebu City area on Cebu Island. Other
B-25s bomb Kinsui, Formosa, and B-24s lightly attack Sandakan, Borneo.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

25/1442Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 10:15:35 -0500
From:    "metod m. milac" <mmilac@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Subject: wwii

My colleague, Randall I. Bond, <ribond@mailbox.syr.edu> asked me to post his
message to the List. Please respond to him directly. Thank you.

Return-Path: <ribond@mailbox.syr.edu>
>Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:18:24 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Randall I. Bond" <ribond@mailbox.syr.edu>
>X-Sender: ribond@rodan.syr.edu
>To: mmilac@mailbox.syr.edu
>Subject: wwii
>
>
>Thank you for the WWII posting on the Wurzburg palace and the American
>art historian--some of my professors at Harvard were monuments officers
>during WWII.
>
>Are you on the WWII listserv ? If so would you be willing to post the
>following for me:
>
>For a dissertation examining the 1940s musicals of Rodgers and Hammerstein
>I am looking for individuals who saw Oklahoma!, Carousel, Carmen Jones,
>or State Fair during or immediately after World War II. I am also looking
>for individuals who were stationed on any of the New Hebrides islands
>(the location of R & H's South Pacific) during the war:sailors, marines,
>seabees, nurses especially.
>
>Randall Bond/Fine Arts Librarian/ Syracuse University
>e-mail:  ribond@mailbox.syr.edu
>
>
>
Metod M. Milac
mmilac@mailbox.syr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 10:15:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: PT Boat info request and prospective member.

 >Hi Lou- I've read your posts on SOVHIST-L with great interest. You always have
 >something interesting and informative to say. I decided to write to you for
 >2 reasons: 1. how can I subscribe to the WWII-List?  and 2. I'm writing a
 >paper about the Herreshoff Mfg. Co. of Bristol, RI. They manufactured many of
 >America's Cup defenders late in the last century and on into the 1930's. During
 >WWII however, they went into war production, making PT boats and APC'c. It is
 >my understanding that ALL of the PT's went to Russia as part of Lend-Lease.
 >How might I find out what happened to them and how they were used once they
 >were turned over to the Soviets?
 >Ralph Fasano   rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu

Ralph,

According to AT CLOSE QUARTERS, PT BOATS IN THE US NAVY by Capt
Robert J Bulkley, Jr, Naval History Division, 1962, Herreshoff of
Bristol, Rhode Island build 8 boats that went to the UK and 20 that
went to the Soviet Union.

BPT (British PT) 29-36 were 70 foot Vosprer boats that were transferred
to the UK under lend-lease Mar-Jun 43 and were redesiganted MTB
287-294 by the Brits.

PT 430 to 449, were also 70 foot Vosper boats, that were tranferred
to the USSR under lend-lease, Feb-Oct 44.

The Vosper 70 foot boat was the standard for the Brit Coastal
Forces during WWII but was never adopted the USN.  Those built in
the U.S. were given to the UK and USSR under lend-lease; the Brits
received 56 boats, the USSR got 128.



-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 04:00:24 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-25-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/25 Sun. Battleships, cruisers, and destroyers (Rear Adm. M. L.
           Deyo) bombard Kerama Retto and southeast coast of Okinawa,
           Ryukyu Islands; bombardment of Okinawa area continues
           daily.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa area:
             Destroyer KIMBERLEY (DD-521), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 02'N., 126 d. 54'E.
             Destroyer escort SEDERSTROM (DE-31), by collision,
              25 d. 00'N., 130 d. 00'E.
             Light minelayer ROBERT H. SMITH (DM-23), by suicide
              plane,
              26 d. 00'N., 128 d. 00'E.
             High-speed transport GILMER (APD-11), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 00'N., 127 d. 20'E.
             High-speed transport KNUDSEN (APD-101), by horizontal
              bomber,
              26 d. 12'N., 127 d. 04'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 14:49:27 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan's Atrocities (vs. Allied atrocities) (fwd)

'Thought WWII-L folks might find this interesting/useful:

>         The Batan Death March was a responce on the part of the Japanes the
> the cintinued fighting by american forces after their surrender.  When
> the Batan forces had surrended the Japanes believed that the surrender
> was of all american fighting forces in the islands.  When Corrigador
> continued fighting, the American POW lost all protection granted by the
> Geniva Convention of War.

 I see, David.  So because we went on fighting after Kasserine Pass
   Feb43), the Germans would have been justified in brutalizing our
   POWs, too?

 Do you have *anything* to substantiate that we misled the Japanese
   into thinking we were surrendering *everyone*?

 The Japanese were doing everything they could to try to force us
   into a fast surrender, but if they *did* lead *themselves* into
   hoping-believing we were surrendering everyone, the responsibility
   is THEIRS, not ours.

 Even if we HAD misled them deliberately, that still would have been no
   excuse whatsoever for a BataAn Death March for captured Americans and
   Filipinos prisoners.

 DID the Japanese sign the Geneva protocols for prisoners of war?  I
   don't think so.  Humane behavior was ALIEN to the Code of Bushido.
   The Japanese were little different, in value system, from the Apache.

 Your overexerted rationalization for this heinous Japanese atrocity is too
   typical of the self-accusing, evil-excusing intellectual perversions
   of the Politically Correct Generation.  And this is releasing Japanese
   Militarism of its primary guilt for the Asian-Pacific War and ALL the
   atrocities and tragedies which accompanied it.

 The historical/moral foundation of the
   peace the WWI and WWII generations sacrificed, fought, and suffered
   so much for, is being contemptuously discarded for the sake of
   expedient, Truth-forsaking novelties and/or appeasements ... and
   the inevitable consequence of that will be an even greater, more
   terminal horror.  (*Are* you prepared to accept the moral responsi-
   bility for that?)  Maybe Humanity *is* ineducable.

 Meanwhile, the WWII generation is dying off daily.

 > Please remember that at the time of the Rape [of Nanking], even the Japanes
 > admited that they "had lost control of their army."  They did admit
 > the atrocity happened.

 Whatever they "admitted" at the time (for the benefit of their gullible
   apologists in the West?), they *didn't* "lose control" of their
   army!  The atrocities were part of a calculated, PUBLIC program
   of terror to break the will of the Chinese people to resist.  See the
   BEJING WEEKLY article on the Rape of Nanking, David.  See the
   Japanese newsreel footage of the mass executions they made and widely
   disseminated at the time -- to intimidate other peoples/countries
   from coming to the aid of the Chinese, as well, perhaps?

 >                 David Lickiss
 >                 student of hiSTORY
 >                 lickiss@sfsu.edu

 David, I'm really not attacking you personally:  I am attacking your
   *thinking* personally/passionately.  Your viewpoint *is* important,
   even if only -- for *my* purposes -- to illustrate the fallacies
   building in our society.  Thank you for continuing to have the
   courage to post.

 Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 15:00:06 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN:  Grammar and spelling on WWII-L

Joe,

     While I understand and respect your hesitations about
members correcting each other's grammar and spelling on WWII-L,
I ask you to reconsider your prohibition of that for the
following reason(s):

     WWII-L's basic mission *is* educational, and "writing
(skills) across the curriculum" is an important and recent
emphasis throughout American education.  This is especially
true when such mistakes can confuse readers and cause additional
posting, etc.

     I realize many of our members are non-English-speaking --
even non-American-speaking  :-)  -- and allowances should be made
there.  Also, such corrections should be in a friendly vein.

     However, for *everyone's* benefit, noting mistakes of
grammar and spelling would seem to be justified on *any*
educational forum.  I know I certainly want to be informed of
such mistakes I make ... so I don't repeat them somewhere else
even more important.  I want to learn from other's mistakes, too.

     When we do have members posting in Spanish, Russian, etc.,
it will be a good thing ... and educational in its own right.

     I agree that there shouldn't be separate posts on the list
for such corrections, and that sometimes they might be better
made back-channel, but I ask you to reconsider your decision on
this.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 16:29:10 -0500
From:    "Roger D. Corrie" <cporog@INFI.NET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN:  Grammar and spelling on WWII-L

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu wrote:
>Joe,
>
>     While I understand and respect your hesitations about
>members correcting each other's grammar and spelling on WWII-L,
>I ask you to reconsider your prohibition of that for the
>following reason(s):
>
>     WWII-L's basic mission *is* educational, and "writing
>(skills) across the curriculum" is an important and recent
>emphasis throughout American education.  This is especially
>true when such mistakes can confuse readers and cause additional
>posting, etc.

I am still new to this list and I see the educational tie in, however I also
see a lot om comradre and from the heart writing.

>     I realize many of our members are non-English-speaking --
>even non-American-speaking  :-)  -- and allowances should be made
>there.  Also, such corrections should be in a friendly vein.

The post I have seen look like they are comming from the Grammar Police and
not very friendly.  I would suggest that an individual who has to point out
a mistake do it directly to the individual and put in the subject Grammar Tip.
My 2 cents.

>     However, for *everyone's* benefit, noting mistakes of
>grammar and spelling would seem to be justified on *any*
>educational forum.  I know I certainly want to be informed of
>such mistakes I make ... so I don't repeat them somewhere else
>even more important.  I want to learn from other's mistakes, too.
>
>     When we do have members posting in Spanish, Russian, etc.,
>it will be a good thing ... and educational in its own right.
>
>     I agree that there shouldn't be separate posts on the list
>for such corrections, and that sometimes they might be better
>made back-channel, but I ask you to reconsider your decision on
>this.
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>
CPORog (Roger D. Corrie)            CAG Devil 00 is down I need 5!!!
cporog@infi.net
http://www.infi.net:80/~cporog/     Is that 5 maintenance min. or 5 real min?
804-427-2200

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 18:28:28 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN USS Ward & Midget Sub

Danny G. Cox wrote:

>I once
learned that upon sinking the sub the skipper of the Ward sent the following
message to Operations at Pearl.  "Sighted sub, sank same." ... Maybe some of
you can either confirm or refute this.

This radio message is usually attributed to navy pilot Donald Francis Mason,
who dropped some bombs on a U-boat from his PBY on Jan. 28, 1942. Michael
Gannon in *Operation Drumbeat* says navy public relations staff prepared the
"Sighted sub, sank same" message for him as a morale-booster to impress the
folks on the home front, and in fact it appears Mason didn't sink anything.
What the hey, it's a good line, no matter where it came from.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 15:44:36 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan

(Suspected Duplicate)


INSTALLMENT ONE IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/25/95


RAID ON CABANATUAN

        On January 9, 1945, the first assault waves of General Douglas
MacArthur's liberating army hit the main Philippine Island of Luzon,
thus beginning the final phase of the Allied Campaign against the
Imperial Army of Japan.

        The road back to Luzon was a long, bloody one, and through it
all a haunting question gnawed at the aging General. What had become of
the 90,000 U.S. and Filipino troops he was forced to leave on Bataan and
Corregidor in 1942?

        Stories reached MacArthur's headquarters by radio from
guerrillas fighting on Luzon. They were horrible reports of a prisoner
of war march of death up the Bataan Peninsula, of  thousands dying in
concentration camps. But, where were those prisoners now? How many
survived the thirty-two months of incarceration?

        Near the end of January, as the liberating forces sliced deep
across Luzon to strike at Manila, guerrillas reported to the 6th U.S.
Army Headquarters that the Japanese were still maintaining a prisoner of
war camp near Cabanatuan City. A secret commando raid was immediately
organized to rescue the POW's before they could be executed. Two elite
units were selected for the dangerous mission...The Alamo Scouts (A
little-known unit similar to our present day Green Berets) and the U.S.
Army Rangers.

        This is the factual story of how less than one hundred and
twenty-five American soldiers, assisted by Filipino guerrillas,
penetrated over twenty-five miles into enemy-held territory to save five
hundred of their comrades. For days, on foot behind enemy lines with
only small weapons, these determined men relied upon their training,
combat experience, ingenuity and the strategy of a young Filipino
guerrilla commander to avoid contact with the major enemy force until
they could launch their attack.  The success of their mission depended
on thoroughness of prior planning, reconnaissance and luck.

        A simple mistake or the betrayal of one native and the mission
could result in the slaughter of both the raiders and the POW's.

        The concern of the Rangers was not only the enemy garrison at
the POW camp. It was also the battalion of Japanese soldiers camped at
Cabu Bridge less than a mile away and the enemy force of division
strength at Cabanatuan City three miles away. Two road blocks of
Filipino guerrillas were to hold the Japanese from reinforcing the POW
camp garrison. The guerrillas were expendable. It was imperative that
they hold the enemy until all POW's were freed and safely
on the way to Allied lines.

        With the help of the guerrillas and civilians, the Rangers and
Scouts successfully liberated 516 POW's from Camp Cabanatuan the night
of January 30, 1945. In the action, the Rangers lost two men who were
killed. One was their beloved Battalion Surgeon. The guerrillas, under
the cool command of a brilliant Filipino Officer, suffered only a few
wounded as they held the Japanese at Cabu Bridge. During those same
hours of combat, over 1,275 Imperial Japanese soldiers were killed. The
Japanese also lost three tanks and three trucks, destroyed by Bazooka
fire. One POW died at the gate of the camp only moments from freedom,
and another POW was accidentally left in the camp. His story, and late
rescue, is almost amusing.

        The Raid on Cabanatuan was the first, and to date, the most
successful mission of its type in U.S. military history. General
MacArthur said of it, "No other incident of the campaign has given me
such personal satisfaction."

        Raid on Cabanatuan is the first to offer the complete story of
the raid in accurate detail. The following is a scenario of the story.

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 24 Mar 1995 to 25 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 12 messages totalling 476 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA: Official German Statement on WWII
  2. Raid on Cabanatuan - #2
  3. INF: USN Chronology 03-26-95
  4. Dudley Morton (2)
  5. Dudley Morton redux
  6. Questions for Jim A., (2)
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 26-MAR-1945
  8. Raid on Cabanatuan Installment 3
  9. THUNDERBOLT
 10. SHIPS: Sea Otter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 02:14:18 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: Official German Statement on WWII

Well, OK.  I admit that this article is just a LITTLE bit dated as it came
from the Minneapolis Star Journal dated THURSDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1941.

I found it interesting for the archives, though not intended to start any
discussions.  I'm sure others have the complete article (I didn't have the
full paper available to me).  If someone has the full article, especially
if it's online, I'd love to see it.

Front Page (capitalizations, etc. as printed in the article):


--GERMANY AND ITALY--

HITLER CHARGES AMERICA "ATTACKED" JAPAN, SAYS GERMANY AND ITALY ARE "FORCED"
TO HONOR AXIS PACT

By Associated Press

     Germany and Italy declared war against the United States today.

     After nearly one hour of speechmaking before his reichstag sounding
board, in which he pictured Germany as invincible and at the same time
victim of "war plotters" in the United States, Britain and Russia, Nazi
Dictator Adolf Hitler announced the war declaration.

     Hitler told his cheering audience in Berlin's Kroll opera house that
Germany and Italy were honoring the three-power pact with Japan on the
grounds, AS THE AXIS PUTS IT, that the United States had attacked Japan.

     "Italy and Germany are forced in agreement with the stipulation of
the tri-partite pact, to associate themselves with Japan," Hitler said.
The declaration of war concluded his speech.

     *  *  *

     Hitler declared President Roosevelt had practiced "instigation" with
other countries and now with Japan.

     "I think all of you have heard with eagerness that at last one state,
a first class power, has risen against this violation of the rules of
decency.

     "Not only Germany but all the decent people in Europe are DEEPLY
SATISFIED WITH THIS JAPANESE CHALLENGE AGAINST THIS AMERICAN POWER."

     "Hitler announced at the same time that Japan, Germany and Italy had
concluded a supplementary military agreement "in their unshakable
determination not to lay down arms before the war against Britain and the
United States has come to a successful conclusion."

     *  *  *

     The three-power agreement, he said, provided:

     "ARTICLE ONE:  Japan, Germany and Italy shall prosecute the war forced
on them by the United States of America and the British empire with all the
forceful means at their command until it ends in their victory.

     "ARTICLE TWO:  Japan, Germany and Italy pledge that without complete
understanding between themselves they will not conclude an armistice or
peace with the United States of America or the British empire.

     "ARTICLE THREE:  Japan, Italy and Germany, after the victorious end of
the war, will co-operate most closely ........



[At this point, the article goes to another page which is long since gone.
Unfortunately, other than the amusing twist of facts only 4 days after Pearl
Harbor, this is where the article starts to get more interesting... Early
statements on the war as a whole and the plans for the conclusion of it.
Would be very interesting to see again what those major issues were...]


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 02:40:46 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan - #2

INSTALLMENT TWO IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/26/95


First of April, 1942.  Summer on Luzon Island, the Philippines.
---------------------------------------------------------------
General Douglas MacArthur's United States Forces Far East (USAFFE)
have stubbornly held part of the Bataan peninsula and the tiny island
fortress of Corregidor from the invading Imperial Army of Japan for four
months.

No help is coming from America. We are now involved in a World War
and will turn our backs on our troops in the Philippines. Short of
ammunition, long out of food and medicines, and racked with malaria,
these American and Filipino soldiers know their surrender is near.

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---

(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
JimWilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 04:00:18 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-26-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/26 Mon. Army forces are landed on Kerama Retto, Ryukyu Islands, by
           naval attack group (Rear Adm. I. N. Kiland) under cover of
           naval bombardment and carrier aircraft attack.
           Army forces are landed at Talisay Point, Cebu, P. I., by
           naval attack group (Capt. A. T. Sprague) under cover of
           cruiser and destroyer gunfire and air attack.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer HALLIGAN (DD-584), by mine, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 10'N., 127 d. 30'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Battleship NEVADA (BB-36), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 18'E.
             Light cruiser BILOXI (CL-80), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 18'E,
             Destroyer MURRAY (DD-576), by dive bomber,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 129 d. 46'E.
             Destroyer PORTERFIELD (DD-682), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 18'E,
             Destroyer O'BRIEN (DD-725), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 16'N., 127 d. 26'E.
             Destroyer CALLAGHAN (DD-792), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 43'E.
             Destroyer escort FOREMAN (DE-633), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 18'E.
             High-speed minesweeper DORSEY (DMS-1), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 18'E.
             Minelayer SKIRMISH (AM-303), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 25'N., 127 d. 05'E.
             Submarine chaser PC-1133, by grounding,
              Philippine Islands area,
              10 d. 13'N., 123 d. 51'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 10:26:57 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, John Riegsecker wrote:

> I would think that using the term "nightmarish minutes" would indicate it
> distrurbed Grider some.

John:

I didn't attached any particular significance to the phrase
"nightmarish minutes" for two reasons:

     1. I suspect there are many minutes in every engagement, in every
        battle, of every war, that can be described as 'nightmarish'.

     2. It was a different event that made a lasting impression on
        George Grider. The following quote is from his book 'War Fish':

        "But there was one incident on the sixth war patrol of
the Flasher that I will never forget. We sighted a rather large sampan
and attacked it by gunfire, setting in afire within sight of land, and
after it appeared that all the crew had abandoned her, we went alongside
to finish the job with a hand grenade. Tom McCants went up on the bow of
the Flasher with the grenade, we put the bow almost against the small
burning vessel, and he tossed the grenade aboard, hoping it would go down
in the hold and knock a hole in the bottom.
        When the explosion occurred, a man jumped up out of the
stern. He had been hidden behind the gunwales, a tattered figure with
blood on him, and as he went over the side and splashed into the water,
he looked at me where I was standing on the bridge. He looked at me,
George Grider, and in that brief moment the war was an intolerably
personal thing. I threw off the sensation soon enough, but it sank into
the recess of my mind, and although it took a while to blossom, it is
full grown now. Many a night I think of that poor man, who probably
wasn't even a Japanese, who perhaps wasn't a combatant at all, whose
sampan was doubtless his only livelihood. We had destroyed it, and in so
doing had destroyed him and his friends. He had said it all to me, and
had given me my deepest scar of the entire war, in that one flashing glance."


> I don't understand why we are so uncomfortable with the fact that
> an American could commit a war crime.

I am interested in learning the facts. Whatever the facts show, so be it.

I've beat this subject enough and will revert to a 'lurking on the list'
mode on this issue. I'll continue to try and get a copy of the patrol
report to read what Dudley Morton said about himself and his actions.

-------------------------------------------
Rod Rupert    rrupert@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 10:44:03 -0600
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton redux

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Carlos R Rivera wrote:

> I recall that only one
> person, Lt. William Calley, was convicted of the My Lai operation in 1968.  My
> memory fails me, but several members of his unit took part in the shooting of
> civilians.  I can't recall if they claimed they were under orders, but none
> were convicted, if they were tried at all.  So one wonders if the Morton crew
> would be liable for such acts.

Carlos:

The crew was obviously ordered to fire on the boats. I was referring to
"I was just following orders" not being a defense. I agree that it is
unlikely that crew members would have been charged even if formal charges
were brought against Dudley Morton.


------------------------------------------------
Rod Rupert   rrupert@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Mar 1995 06:58:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <frank.scheidt@WOLVERINE.COM>
Subject: Questions for Jim A.,

 WWID> WID> On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

 WWID> P.S.  To my surprise, there are several AJA men who got stuck in Japan

"AJA"???

 WWID> after the surprise raid at Pearl Harbor and had to serve with the IJN.

"IJN"???

 WWID> P.S.  Trivia:  Which former Axis country built a shrine in remeberance
 WWID> to their military dead and to the American KIA?   This shrine holds the
 WWID> names of every American service person killed-in-action.

I'll bet that they don't use the term "service PERSON [emphasis
mine]" ... heh heh heh ...




... Have you read "Unemployed" by Anita Job?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 13:02:14 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions for Jim A.,

On Sat, 25 Mar 1995, Frank Scheidt wrote:

snip and snip and snip
>
> "AJA"???

Americans of Japanese Ancestory
>
> "IJN"???

Imperial Japanese Navy
>
>
>
> ... Have you read "Unemployed" by Anita Job?
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 18:51:09 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 26-MAR-1945

On 26-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 9th Army sector, the offensive of the XVI Corps
continues, with gains of 2-3 miles per day. In the 3rd Army sector, the 6th
Armoured Division reaches the south bank of the river Main near Franfurt
and prepares to enter the city. In the 7th Army sector, the XV Corps crosses
the Rhine near Hamm and also Worms.

Eastern Front - The 3rd White Russian Front completes mopping up in East
Prussia. The 2nd White Russian front continues the fight for Danzig and
Gdynia.  In Czechoslavakia, the 2nd Ukraine Front takes Banska Bystrica.
Continuing west from Hungary towards Austria, the 3rd Ukraine Front takes
Papa and Devecser.

Philippines - In the 8th Army sector, the Americal Division lands on Cebu
near Talisay. Japanese opposition consists of scattered fire.

Iwo Jima - The Japanese make a final attack on Iwo in the early morning.
200 or more attempt to infiltrate a bivouac acrea and at least 196 are
killed. This ends the campaign on Iwo Jima.

Ryukyu Islands - Preliminary landings by the 77th Division occur on the
Kerama Islands group to secure a seaplane base and fleet ancohorage in
preparation for the main invasion of Okinawa. Air and long-range naval
gunfire bombardment of Okinawa continues.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 16:35:30 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan Installment 3

INSTALLMENT THREE IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/26/95

April 9, 1942.
--------------
Bataan has surrendered! The Japanese plan to march their "captives" to
the first POW camp, O'Donnell. They son discover that they have over
75,000 POW's, not 36,000 as expected. A brutal, unorganized
extermination begins along the march route. The eighty-five mile "Bataan
Death March" to POW camp O'Donnell leaves thousands of Allied soldiers
dead.  After arriving at Camp O'Donnell, five hundred Allied soldiers a
day will die of disease and starvation.

Not far away, at Cabanatuan City, Lieutenant Juan Pajota, a Filipino
member of USAFFE who escaped Bataan, organizes a guerrilla unit composed
of old army buddies who also avoided capture. Pajota links up with an
American Officer, Major Bob Lapham, who promotes the lieutenant to
Captain.

Lapham, a slim blonde man of 27,  resembles Alan Ladd.

They discuss plans to unify their guerrilla units into an effective
fighting force even though they have only a few weapons. Ambushes on
small Japanese units produce more guns and supplies.


--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
JimWilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 17:43:37 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

>From:         "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
>Subject:      Re: Dudley Morton

[...]

>I've beat this subject enough and will revert to a 'lurking on the list'
>mode on this issue. I'll continue to try and get a copy of the patrol
>report to read what Dudley Morton said about himself and his actions.

If you do, would you post the relevant parts?  I agree it would be best
to let Morton speak for himself.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 21:30:35 -0500
From:    "Paul C. Perkins, M.D." <PERK1518@AOL.COM>
Subject: THUNDERBOLT

Well, it's official. I'm tasked with doing a manuscript for a P-47 photo
book. I'm looking for good sources of the design and development of the P-47.
Also - I'd like (LOVE) to talk with anyone who flew, operated, maintained, or
built any of these big birds.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 23:05:23 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: SHIPS: Sea Otter

Local lore in the Galveston, Texas, area has it that a hull still visible at
low tide is the wreck of the *Sea Otter*, an unusual design for a
 concrete-hulled liberty ship that had propeller shafts extending vertically
through the hull and then turning at a 90-degree angle. The idea was for the
propeller shafts to be lifted up onto the deck of the ship (beats me how this
would work), which was intended to have a very shallow draft, so that
torpedoes would pass harmlessly underneath.

The local legend says that she was constructed by Brown Shipbuilders (later
to become Brown & Root Inc.), and so likely would have been launched
somewhere along the Gulf Coast (Orange, Texas?). This may or may not be true.

Apparently the idea didn't work out very well, and I think only the prototype
was built. Morison, in his Vol. I, describes the *Sea Otter* and calls her
"dangerously crank." But he never says what happened to her.

Does anybody know if/when/where the *Sea Otter* went down? Any information
would be appreciated.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Mar 1995 to 26 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 26 Mar 1995 to 27 Mar 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: OR

There are 34 messages totalling 1428 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Medal of Honor (3)
  2. PROFS Case: List Tracks Federal Electronic Record Issues
  3. INF: USN Chronology 03-27-95
  4. Military airshow sked
  5. THUNDERBOLT (4)
  6. Bataan death march (2)
  7. Command confirmation request (3922A9)OK
  8. Greenland P-38's
  9. MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale (3)
 10. MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum (3)
 11. MEDIA:Portugese WWII Hero
 12. Posters and Prints
 13. Please name that gun (again)
 14. Obersalzberg con't
 15. Where was the queen?
 16. Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1 (2)
 17. INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-MAR-1945
 18. MEDAL OF HONOR (2)
 19. BATAAN DEATH MARCH
 20. MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux (2)
 21. [INF] USAAF 28 MAR 45

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 26 Mar 1995 23:36:49 -0600
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Medal of Honor

I have a question that one of our veterans or active service personnel
can answer.  Recently I was in a major city surplus store looking over
the goodies when I noticed something both shocking and disturbing in the
sale case.  Not one, but two, Congressional Medals of Honor.  And, they
weren't replicas.

Maybe this was just taboo rather than law, but I thought that it was
illegal to sell a Medal of Honor.  True or true legend?

I keep thinking about these medals and what circumstances prompted either
the recipients or their heirs to part with them.  I mean, I don't think
you'd pick these up at a garage sale (one would hope) as a dealer for resale.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 01:23:08 -0500
From:    Eddie Becker <ebecker@A.CNI.ORG>
Subject: PROFS Case: List Tracks Federal Electronic Record Issues

Please excuse cross-posting
--------------------------------------------------------
    HOW TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT THE
    PROFS NOTES CASE
    The PROFS Notes case has sought to prevent the
    destruction of Federal and Presidential Records and
    to establish management of Electronic records
    consistent with the Federal Records law and Legislative intent.
    You can periodically receive breaking news on the case
    as well as related issues by subscribing to this list.
    Among the current posting that you will receive are:
    1) The Court decision that overturned an
    agreement between the National Archives and George Bush
    that would have allowed the former president to destroy
    electronic Federal and Presidential records on computer tapes.
    2) The Society of American Archivists Position paper
    on electronic records.
    3) Proposed Electronic Record Management
    Standards for the Federal government by the National
    Institute of Standards and Technology
    Send an e-mail message to  ebecker@cni.org
    with the word Join in the subject line.
    In the body of the message put your name and
    your E-Mail address as well as the name of the
    listserv that from which you saw this notice and any
    other comments you wish to make.
    Thank you,    -Eddie Becker-    ebecker@cni.org

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 04:00:20 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-27-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/27 Tue. Army troops, supported by destroyers and motor torpedo
           boats and air attack, land on Caballo Island near
           Corregidor, Luzon, P. I.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa area:
             Carrier ESSEX (CV-9), by aircraft operational casualty,
              25 d. 10'N., 132 d. 05'E.
              [The landing was "less than optimal"? LWJ]
             High-speed minesweeper SOUTHARD (DMS-10), by suicide
              plane,
              26 d. 00'N., 127 d. 00'E.
             Light minelayer ADAMS (DM-27), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 17'N., 127 d. 40 E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Cable layer ODATE, by submarine TRIGGER (SS-237),
              East China Sea,
              30 d. 40'N., 127 d. 50'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 07:50:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Military airshow sked

          NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1995
                           ISSUE 6, MARCH 27, 1995

The following is the combined schedules for the North American military
aerobatic teams for the 1995 show season and includes schedules for shows
in Canada and the United States.  All shows held prior to the date shown
above have been removed from the list.

This list is sorted by country and Province and State.  The four teams
covered in this post are:

  Canadian Armed Forces SNOWBIRDS
  U.S. Air Force THUNDERBIRDS
  U.S. Army GOLDEN KNIGHTS
  U.S. Navy BLUE ANGELS

Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated.  Please e-mail them
to me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com.

REASON FOR REISSUE:  Bart Salisbury (Prowler633@aol.com) reports that the
the Blue Angels have cancelled their 25-26 Mar performance at Phoenix/Mesa,
AZ claiming they need more practice time.  The source is an air show person
in the Phoenix area, who says he heard it on the radio.


I. CANADA
---------

ALBERTA
-------
Calgary: Snowbirds, Jul 15 and 16
Grande Prairie: Snowbirds, Aug 7
Red Deer: Snowbirds, Aug 5 and 6
Slave Lake: Snowbirds, Jul 17

BRITISH COLUMBIA
----------------
Abbotsford: Snowbirds, Aug 11 thru 13
Cranbrook: Snowbirds, Jul 27
Kamloops: Snowbirds, Aug 9
Kelowna: Snowbirds, May 13 and 14
Penticton: Snowbirds, May 3
Prince George: Snowbirds, Jul 22 and 23
Prince Rupert: Snowbirds, Jul 19
Victoria: Snowbirds, Jul 29 and 30

MANITOBA
--------
Brandon: Snowbirds, May 5
Grand Beach: Snowbirds, Jul 5
Portage la Prairie: Sep 9 and 10

NEW BRUNSWICK
-------------
St John: Snowbirds, May 30
Shediac: Snowbirds, Jun 29

NEWFOUNDLAND
------------
CFB Gander: Snowbirds, Jun 18
CFB Goose Bay: Snowbirds, Jun 16

NORTHWEST TERRITORIES
---------------------
Hay River: Snowbirds, Apr 27

NOVA SCOTIA
-----------
CFB Shearwater: Snowbirds, Aug 26 and 27
Yarmouth: Snowbirds, Aug 29

ONTARIO
-------
Chapleau: Snowbirds, May 22
CFB Borden: Snowbirds, Jul 2 and 3
Grand Bend: Snowbirds, Jun 8
Hamilton: Thunderbirds, Jun 17 and 18
Leamington: Snowbirds, Jun 10
London: Snowbirds, Jun 3 and 4
Ottawa: Snowbirds, May 7, Jun 24 and 25, and Jul 1
Sault St. Marie: Snowbirds, May 20 and 21
Thunder Bay: Snowbirds, Sep 6
Toronto: Snowbirds, Sep 2 thru 4
Windsor: Snowbirds, Jun 11

PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND
--------------------
Summerside: Snowbirds, Jun 20

QUEBEC
------
Bromont: Snowbirds, Jun 6
Charlevoix: Snowbirds, Jun 27
La Tuque: Snowbirds, Aug 23
Mirabel: Snowbirds, May 27 and 28
Mont Laurier: Snowbirds, Jun 1
Quebec City: Snowbirds, Aug 19 and 20
Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, Jun 22

SASKATCHEWAN
------------
CFB Moose Jaw:
  Jul 8 and 9: Blue Angels and Snowbirds
  Oct 14: Snowbirds
Lloydminster: Snowbirds, May 11
Prince Albert: Snowbirds, Aug 2

YUKON TERRITORY
---------------
Whitehorse: Snowbirds, Jul 25



II. UNITED STATES
-----------------

ALABAMA
-------
No Shows

ALASKA
------
Juneau: Snowbirds, Apr 29 and 30

ARIZONA
-------
Luke AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 8
MCAS Yuma: Golden Knights, Feb 25
Mesa: Blue Angels, Mar 25 and 26 (unconfirmed cancellation)
Page: Snowbirds, Oct 7 and 8

ARKANSAS
--------
Fort Smith: Blue Angels, May 20 and 21 and Golden Knights, May 20

CALIFORNIA
----------
Fresno: Golden Knights, Sep 23 and 24
March AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 14 and 15
MCAS El Toro: Blue Angels, Apr 28 thru 30
NAS LeMoore: Blue Angels, May 6 and 7
NAS Miramar: Blue Angels, Aug 25 thru 27
NAWS Point Mugu: Snowbirds, Sep 23 and 24
Redding: Blue Angels, Jul 1 and 2
Salinas: Thunderbirds, Sep 30 and Oct 1
San Francisco: Blue Angels, Oct 7 and 8
Travis AFB: Golden Knights, Oct 7
Vandenburg AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 9
Van Nuys: Golden Knights, Jul 15 and 16

COLORADO
--------
Durango: Thunderbirds, Jun 4
Grand Junction: Snowbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 27
Loveland: Thunderbirds, Apr 22 and 23
Peterson AFB: Snowbirds, Sep 20
USAF Academy: Thunderbirds, May 31

CONNECTICUT
-----------
No Shows

DELAWARE
--------
No Shows

FLORIDA
-------
Daytona Beach: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Nov 4 and 5
Eglin AFB; Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 1
Fort Lauderdale: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 6 and 7
Homestead AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Nov 11 and 12
MacDill AFB: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Apr 22 and 23
NAS Cecil Field: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Nov 4 and 5
NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, Nov 10 and 11
Patrick AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Apr 2
Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, Jul 22
Sanford: Blue Angels, Apr 1 and 2

GEORGIA
-------
Athens: Golden Knights, Sep 30

HAWAII
------
NAS Barbers Point: Blue Angels, Sep 2 and 3
Schofield Barracks: Golden Knights, Aug 31 thru Sep 4

IDAHO
-----
No Shows

ILLINOIS
--------
Chicago: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 5 and 6
Scott AFB: Thunderbirds, Jul 29 and 30
Springfield: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 15 and 16

INDIANA
-------
Evansville: Golden Knights, Aug 28
North Webster: Golden Knights, Jun 17 thru 19

IOWA
----
Davenport: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jun 24 and 25
Dubuque: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 12 and 13

KANSAS
------
Liberal: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 23 and 24
McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, Jun 24 and 25

KENTUCKY
--------
Louisville: Golden Knights, Sep 2 thru 4

LOUISIANA
---------
Alexandira: Blue Angels, Sep 30 and Oct 1
Barksdale AFB: Golden Knights, Apr 9
Monroe: Golden Knights, Apr 23
NAS New Orleans: Thunderbirds, Oct 28 and 29

MAINE
-----
NAS Brunswick: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 22 and 23

MARYLAND
--------
Andrews AFB: Thunderbirds, May 20 and 21 and Golden Knights, May 19 to 21
Fort Meade: Golden Knights, May 18
Frederick: Thunderbirds, Aug 26 and 27
NAS Patuxent River: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, May 27
US Naval Academny, Anapolis: Blue Angels, May 29 and 31

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
Andover: Golden Knights, May 29
Hanscom AFB: Thunderbirds, Jun 10 and 11

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, Jul 2 thru 4
Benton Harbor: Golden Knights, May 7
Detroit: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Jun 3 and 4
Grand Rapids: Golden Knights, Jun 20
Kalmazoo: Golden Knights, Jun 10 and 11

MINNESOTA
---------
Duluth: Snowbirds, May 9
Mankato: Snowbirds, May 25

MISSISSIPPI
-----------
Keesler AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 25
NAS Meridian: Blue Angels, May 13 and 14

MISSOURI
--------
Columbia: Golden Knights (May 26 to 28) and Thunderbirds (May 27 and 28)
Kansas City: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Jul 29 and 30
Whiteman AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jun 14

MONTANA
-------
Bozeman: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 20
Malmstrom AFB: Golden Knights, Jul 8

NEBRASKA
--------
Offutt AFB: Thunderbirds, Sep 3 and 4

NEVADA
------
NAS Fallon: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Oct 14
Reno: Snowbirds, Sep 15 thru 17

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------
No Shows

NEW JERSEY
----------
No Shows

NEW MEXICO
----------
Holloman AFB: Thunderbirds, Jun 3
Roswell: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 16 and 17

NEW YORK
--------
Niagara Falls: Golden Knights, Jun 24 and 25
White Lake: Golden Knights, Jul 8 thru 10

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Ft Bragg: Golden Knights, Jul 4
MCAS Cherry Point: Blue Angels, Apr 8 and 9
Salisbury: Golden Knights, May 13 and 14

NORTH DAKOTA
------------
Fargo: Golden Knights, Aug 12 and 13
Grand Forks AFB: Thunderbirds, Jul 8
Minot AFB: Golden Knights, Jul 30

OHIO
----
Columbus: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 5 and 6
Dayton: Golden Knights, Jul 22 and 23
Toledo: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Sep 9 and 10

OKLAHOMA
--------
Oklahoma City: Blue Angels, Jun 17 and 18

OREGON
------
Hillsboro: Blue Angels, Jul 15 and 16
Medford: Golden Knights, Aug 26 and 27

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Reading: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Aug 19 and 20

RHODE ISLAND
------------
North Kingston: Blue Angels, Jun 10 and 11

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
Charleston AFB: Thunderbirds, Oct 8
Myrtle Beach: Golden Knights, Jun 3 and 4

SOUTH DAKOTA
------------
Ellsworth AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Jul 9

TENNESSEE
---------
Gray: Golden Knights, Aug 21 thru 24
Knoxville: Golden Knights, Apr 29 and 30
McGhee Tyson ANGB: Thunderbirds, Apr 29 and 30
Smyrna: Blue Angels, Sep 16 and 17

TEXAS
-----
Bergstrom AFB: Blue Angels, Oct 28 and 29
Dallas: Golden Knights, Sep 16 and 17 and Sep 29 thru Oct 2
El Paso: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Oct 21 and 22
Ft Worth: Golden Knights, Oct 7 and 8
Houston: Blue Angels, Oct 21 and 22
Midland: Snowbirds, Sep 30 and Oct 1
Randolph AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 13
Reese AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, May 14
San Angelo: Snowbirds, Oct 3

UTAH
----
Hill AFB: Thunderbirds and Golden Knights, Aug 19

VERMONT
-------
No Shows

VIRGINIA
--------
Ft. Eustis: Golden Knights, Aug 4
Langley AFB: Thunderbirds, Oct 7
Manassas: Golden Knights, May 23
NAS Oceana: Blue Angels, Sep 23 and 24

WASHINGTON
----------
NAS Whidbey Island: Blue Angels and Golden Knights, Sep 9 and 10

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
No Shows

WISCONSIN
---------
No Shows

WYOMING
-------
Cheyenne: Thunderbirds, Jul 26

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 05:05:32 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: THUNDERBOLT

You wrote:

>
>Well, it's official. I'm tasked with doing a manuscript for a P-47
photo
>book. I'm looking for good sources of the design and development of the
P-47.
>Also - I'd like (LOVE) to talk with anyone who flew, operated,
maintained, or
>built any of these big birds.
>
>
Robert Johnson, one of the leading Thunderbolt aces, is still alive and
should be considered a primary source.  He was a vice president at
Republic, and could open many doors for you.  Try contacting Republic to
see if they can set you up.

The Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) hosted a P-47 reunion at
Oshkosh, WI within the last two years, and would be a good source
of names and addresses for contacts.  Ask for the Warbirds group when
you call.

I was just at the Air Force Armaments Museum at Eglin AFB, FL, and they
have a P-47 at the museum.

HTH, Ed Kettler
deradler@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 08:08:28 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medal of Honor

Bill Smith said:

>I keep thinking about these medals and what circumstances prompted either
>the recipients or their heirs to part with them.  I mean, I don't think
>you'd pick these up at a garage sale (one would hope) as a dealer for resale.

I know how you feel; I picked up _The Old Breed_, a history of the 1st Marine
Division in WWII,... at a yard sale. An inscription in the cover quotes,
"to my son, we did it for you." I have tried to find the son but have not
had any success. The book is sort of a "year book" but covers a much greater
span of time. There are many interviews in the book, and photos of the kind
of Hell that they all went through. (Our own Ben Frank is from the 1st - he
mentioned that he recalls the name written in the book, Sgt. James C. Wilbur)

'Regards, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 08:39:35 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Bataan death march

Recent posts have led me to wonder, how soon after the event did the
Bataan death march become known to outsiders?
As always, thanks in advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 07:18:48 -0700
From:    Jacob Allen Hargenrader <64967@EF.GC.MARICOPA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Command confirmation request (3922A9)OK

  WWII IS A WONDERFUL SUBJ. IS THERE ONE FOR WWI?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 09:34:28 EST
From:    Mike Fetters <NASEM015@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: THUNDERBOLT

In response to the inquiry about Thunderbolt pilots, we had a very nice
display here at the National Air and Space Museum about three years ago.
It was the first aircraft in our "Air Power in World War II" series. I
recall that we had a number of folks from the P-47 association here for
the opening. About a month later, we had about two dozen gentlemen from
the East Coast chapter of the Tuskegee Airmen, Inc. I can try to dig up
addresses/phone number if you'd like!

Mike Fetters, Office of Public Affairs, National Air and Space Museum

e-mail: nasem015@sivm.si.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 09:14:57 EST
From:    SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Re: THUNDERBOLT

        The Confederate Air Force in Midland, Texas flies a restored P-47
Thunderbolt.  Perhaps they could put you in touch with the pilot of this
huge bird.
        Regards,
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:43:06 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Greenland P-38's

On Fri, 24 Mar 1995, Jeff Dingbaum wrote:

> The P38 restoration gifs are located on my server and are available
> via ftp and www.  Steve scanned them and was good enough to send them

I also put a (different) set on the WWW. The index page
is "http://www.vestnett.no/vulcan/pics/p-38.html". I added the comments
that Dennis put on the back of the photographs.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:56:21 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale

>From the DoD Newswire 27 March 1995


:DESERT FOX MEDAL FOR SALE IN LONDON

    LONDON, March 26 - A Victoria Cross, Britain's highest
military medal for gallantry, won in a commando raid to capture German
Field Marshal Erwin Rommel during World War Two will go under the
hammer on Tuesday.
     Medallists Spink and Son said on Sunday they will auction the
medal in London and interest from collectors and museums was intense
although they gave no estimate of how much it might fetch.
     The decoration was awarded to Lieutenant-Colonel Geoffrey Keyes,
24, who died leading the failed mission to capture Rommel on the eve
of the Battle of El Alamein, in which British troops defeated
Germany's Afrika Corps in North Africa.
     The raid was dramatised in the film "The Desert Fox," with James
Mason playing the German commander.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:53:36 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

>From the DoD Newswire 27 March 1995
======

:ISRAEL FINDS WWII FUEL BARREL

   JERUSALEM -- A barrel of airplane fuel from Nazi Germany has
surfaced intact on a beach in northern Israel.
   The 53-gallon metal container was discovered rolling in the surf
Saturday by a man strolling the beach in Akhziv, a resort near the
Lebanese border. It was stamped with the date 1942 and the word
Wehrmacht, Germany's World War II army.
   Scientists on Sunday found it still contained jet fuel and it was
deposited in a nearby landfill, said Haim Shenhar, a local
Environment Ministry official.
   "It was completely whole after more than 50 years in the sea,"
Shenhar said. "This is the first time we have found such a
phenomenon."
   Environment Ministry spokesman Iftah Kramer said the barrel was
probably carried over by currents from Italy or other Mediterranean
countries.

=====



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:59:06 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Portugese WWII Hero

>From the DoD Newswire 27 March 1995


:PORTUGAL HONORS WWII HERO

   LISBON, Portugal -- Nazi troops were three days from Paris
when Portugal's dictator delivered a stern command to his diplomatic
corps: "Issue no visas to persons of impure blood, or to opponents of
the Nazi government."
   Defying the order, Aristides Sousa Mendes threw himself into a
frantic, 72-hour visa-writing blitz as hordes of refugees banged on
his consulate door.
   On Friday, Portugal rewarded his defiance with a plaque to its
"greatest hero of World War II" -- 55 years after Sousa Mendes was
tossed from the Foreign Ministry and his 13 children had to flee into
exile and poverty.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:28:28 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medal of Honor

UPDATE
------

>Bill Smith said:
>
>>I keep thinking about these medals and what circumstances prompted either
>>the recipients or their heirs to part with them.  I mean, I don't think
>>you'd pick these up at a garage sale (one would hope) as a dealer for resale.
>
>I know how you feel; I picked up _The Old Breed_, a history of the 1st Marine
>Division in WWII,... at a yard sale. An inscription in the cover quotes,
>"to my son, we did it for you." I have tried to find the son but have not
>had any success. The book is sort of a "year book" but covers a much greater
>span of time. There are many interviews in the book, and photos of the kind
>of Hell that they all went through. (Our own Ben Frank is from the 1st - he
>mentioned that he recalls the name written in the book, Sgt. James C. Wilbur)

I now have a lead! A previously unreachable Wilbur has been, or will be
contacted. I hope to pass the book to a daughter of the Jim Sr. ... The
son who has not been traceable is in Greece, presumably in the service.

'Regards, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:39:21 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan death march

>From:         Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
>
>Recent posts have led me to wonder, how soon after the event did the
>Bataan death march become known to outsiders?
>As always, thanks in advance,
>Brad Coon

I just want to have my say here, Brad, 'hope you'll forgive, but IMHO and
to put the death march into perspective, President Andrew Jackson overroad
the Supreeme Court when the court declared it unconstitutional to move
all native americans out of Florida, etc to the west. He ordered the army
to carry out the march, called the "trail of tears" on which something
like 20,000 indians died. This wasn't even a war.

The blame for the thousands of lost men should go to MacArthur who, knowing
the chances, should have decided to resist. Any way of dying seems to me
would have been preferable to getting bayonneted in the back if you fell from
exhaustion. I have a low regard for MacArthur and can not figure why he
was regarded so highly, other than he was good at politics.

'My opinion, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 12:52:31 EST
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Posters and Prints

Hello everyone!
   I just received a Posters and Prints catalog from the GPO and for
those of you who might be interested, here's a listing of prints related
to WWII:

  WWII Commerative Print Sets:
  Set 1: The Early Years - includes reproductions of these paintings:
  Enemy Air Attack, Arawe; West Coast Dock, San Francisco both by Barse
  Miller; Bringing in the Ammo, Rendova; Assault Groups Take Cover,
  Rendova, both by Aaron Bohrod; Hill 609, Tunisia, by Fletcher Martin;
  Loading of Vultee Vengeance Planes, New York Harbor, by Julien Binford;
  Shell Factory, Detroit, by Paul Sample; Kiske Raid, Aleutians, by Edward
  Laning; Coast Artillary, Trinidad, by James Turnball; and Burial at Sea
  South Pacific by Sidney Simon. Also includes an explanation sheet.
  10 posters 16x21 in; flat and sheet. D 114.13:Ea 7/2  = $10.00
  008-029-00246-9
  Set 2: The Tide Turns - Includes these reproductions: Explaining the
  Problem, England; Convoy to the Marshalling Area, England; Road Block,
  France, all by Olin Dows; China Life Line, China by Howard Baer; Night
  Shift, Italy by Cassino, Italy by Edward Reep, Omaha Beach, France by
  Gary Sheahan; Destruction to Liuchow, China, by Samuel Smith; and Queen
  Elizabeth (ship) Comes up to the Clyde, England, by Byron Thomas. same
  format as above. D 114.13:T 43
  008-029-00247-7

  Set 3: The Final Stages - Includes: Train Crossing the Moselle, France
  by A. Brockie Stevenson; Skidloads and Conveyors, France, by David Lax
  Signal to the Russians, Germany by Olin Dows; salvage Roses, Italy by
  Edward Reep; Ferry Crossing at La Paz, Philippine Islands, by Barse
  Miller; Night Duty, South Pacific, by Franklin Boggs; All Aboard for
  Home, England by Joseph Hirsch; Tanks in the Huertgen Forest, Germany
  by Ogden Pleissner; US Army Engineer Base Yard, Saipan, by Hans
  Mangelsdorf; and A Cold Watch, France, by Kutchko. 10 posters, 17x22
  D 114.13:F 49  008-029-00254-0  $9.50

  In addition to these prints there are other WWII Lithographs and
  various posters associated with the specific forces. To order or
  inquire information about these prints, you can write to the following
  address:
                   Superintendent of Documents
                   US Government Printing Office
                   P.O. Box 371954
                   Pittsburgh, PA 15250-7954

  If there are any questions about these prints or other details, please
  contact me at mhricko@kentvm.kent.edu

                                       Regards, Mary

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 12:57:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Please name that gun (again)

Hello, Erik!

To answer your question. Yes. The Thor did exist.

It was the most powerful siege mortar of pre-atomic man.

One shell could level a city block. I have the info on this weapon,
if you want it. Please let me know.

All the best.

Terry

 Unfortunately the gun was shw only for very short times, but I
> also remember that it had THOR written on it in (pseudo-)runic letters.
> Sorry I can not give more infos, but has anybody heard of such a gun, or
> at least a book where I can look? Any help is appreciated, thanx a lot in
> advance.
>
>                                                 So long
>
>                                                         Erik
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 13:07:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Obersalzberg con't

Hello, Ira!

This may have already been answered, but will add my two cents' to it.


>   I've heard of something called the "Wolfschanze" (Wolf's Lair).
> Is that at Obersalzberg or is it in East Prussia?  Can it be visited?
> What did Hitler do there?

    Yes.  This HQ is probably the most famous, because it was the
site of the bomb plot to kill Hitler carried out on 20 Jul 1944 by
Colonel Claus Graf von Staffenberg who was Chief of Staff of the
Replacement Army at the time.

    This HQ contained three rings of security fortifications and was
heavily manned.

    This site is now a museum, in fact, one of the most frequently
visited in what used to be East Germany. It is located at Rastenburg,
East Prussia which is located near a rail junction that connects
Rastenburg with Cracow, Poland, a major German control center for
that portion of the war in the East. There was also an airfield
nearby to facilitate comings and goings from Berlin.

    Hitler built this HQ in the East, besides the one at Vinnitsa, to
maintain better contact and thus control or direction of his forces
fighting in the East.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 15:11:18 AST
From:    MAESTRO <sml@TRITON.BERCOL.BM>
Subject: Where was the queen?

Just a simple question?

Does anybody know where the Queen of England was residing during World War
II?

Thanks Alot!

Steven Lima

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 14:57:55 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

The rear sight to the No.4, Mark I rocks front and back to produce 2 sight
pictures: one short and one long range. They are marked 300 & 600. Does
anyone know if that is yards or feet. It might sound like a dumb question,
but many weapons have trajectories that travel through the line of sight
twice, and it seems absurd that the first pass should be up through the
line of sight at 300 YARDS. :-/

Anyone,... Sidney?

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:48:00 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: THUNDERBOLT

On Sun, 26 Mar 1995, Paul C. Perkins, M.D. wrote:

> Well, it's official. I'm tasked with doing a manuscript for a P-47 photo
> book. I'm looking for good sources of the design and development of the P-47.

"Thunderbolt -- A documentary history of the P-47" by Roger A. Freeman.
Arms and Armour Press, 1978/1982. 149 pages. Development history, combat
history, a detailled listing of all subtypes, and a list of units that
used it.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:11:11 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale

> :DESERT FOX MEDAL FOR SALE IN LONDON
>
>     LONDON, March 26 - A Victoria Cross, Britain's highest
> military medal for gallantry, won in a commando raid to capture German
> Field Marshal Erwin Rommel during World War Two will go under the
> hammer on Tuesday.
>      Medallists Spink and Son said on Sunday they will auction the
> medal in London and interest from collectors and museums was intense
> although they gave no estimate of how much it might fetch.

I bet it will bring more than $12,000.00 maybe as much as $20K.
Anybody on the list get Spink & Son's auction?  I'd like to know what
the realized price is.  We never did hear how much Monty's PJs brought
did we?

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:29:06 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-MAR-1945

On 27-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the British 2nd Army sector, the 51st Division reaches
the river Ijssel. The XVIII Airborne Corps advances 10 miles across the
Wesel forest. In the U.S. 9th Army sector, the 79th Division advances from
the south towards the Ruhr area. In the 3rd Army sector, the VIII Corps
widens and reinforces its bridgehead across the Rhine in the area of
Wisbaden. The French 1st Army regroups in preparation for an attack across
the Rhine.

Eastern Front - The Russian 46th Army surround a large German force west of
Esztergom. The 2nd Ukraine Front advances towards the river Raba. The 2nd
White Russian Front enters Danzig and Gdynia. The 1st Ukraine Front takes
Strehlen and Rybnik; while the 4th Ukraine Front takes Zary and Wodzislaw.

Philippines - In the I Corps area, the 32nd Division begins the offensive
to capture Salacsac Pass No. 2 on the Villa Verde track. In the 8th Army
sector, the Cebu invasion force breaks through weak resistance and takes
Cebu City.

Ryukyu Islands - The occupation of the Kerama Islands continues in
preparation for the invasion of Okinawa. Kamikazes continue to attack
American ships, damaging the carrier Essex.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:56:09 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale

There is something profoundly obscene about auctioning
  a Victoria Cross ... or a Congressional Medal of Honor ...
  or ...?

It should be earned by service and/or revered as a
  remembrance -- never bought and sold.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:04:41 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: MEDAL OF HONOR

Insofar as I know, the sale of Medals of Honor is forbidden by Federal law. Ben
Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:09:26 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDAL OF HONOR

"The Old Breed," by my late friend, George McMillan, is considered to have been
the finest WWII unit histories written. It certainly conveys why the 1st MarDiv
is called The Old Breed. If you picked it up at a flea market for less that
$125, you got yourself a bargain. One of the men in my outfit was James C.
Wilbur. I never knew what happened to him after the war. Cherish the book; it
deserves it. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:09:32 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: BATAAN DEATH MARCH

I don't know how soon after the event the death march was known. The government
was between Scylla and Charibdis, if I may use a classic, and perhaps misspelt
names. I think that it feared that the POWs would be treated worse, if
possible, than they were should it appear that it knew about the event. In any
case, for an outstanding work on the death march, I suggest you read Stanley
Falk's book of the same name--The Bataan Death March. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:21:12 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AUTO-GRAPHICS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

JET fuel in a 1942 container?  In the Med?  Does this sound funny?

Jim Benn.

On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, James E Irwin wrote:

> From the DoD Newswire 27 March 1995
> ======
>
> :ISRAEL FINDS WWII FUEL BARREL
>
>    JERUSALEM -- A barrel of airplane fuel from Nazi Germany has
> surfaced intact on a beach in northern Israel.
>    The 53-gallon metal container was discovered rolling in the surf
> Saturday by a man strolling the beach in Akhziv, a resort near the
> Lebanese border. It was stamped with the date 1942 and the word
> Wehrmacht, Germany's World War II army.
>    Scientists on Sunday found it still contained jet fuel and it was
> deposited in a nearby landfill, said Haim Shenhar, a local
> Environment Ministry official.
>    "It was completely whole after more than 50 years in the sea,"
> Shenhar said. "This is the first time we have found such a
> phenomenon."
>    Environment Ministry spokesman Iftah Kramer said the barrel was
> probably carried over by currents from Italy or other Mediterranean
> countries.
>
> =====
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> paa5137 sends (James Irwin)...
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:30:51 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <crivera@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux

> There is something profoundly obscene about auctioning
>   a Victoria Cross ... or a Congressional Medal of Honor ...
>   or ...?
>
> It should be earned by service and/or revered as a
>   remembrance -- never bought and sold.

---in the same vein, is it not equally profoundly obscene about the failure of
any government to keep its promise to veterans, even those who can't afford
the luxury of selling their well deserved medals.  Has anyone checked lately on
the health status of veterans and objected to the waste of healthcare for them.
If a veteran, not all of them of course, has to sell his medals to sustain some
standard of living, including his health, the shame and dishonor should fall to
the nation, not the individual
my dos (devalued) centavos
CRivera

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:36:43 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AUTO-GRAPHICS.COM>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

I understand that what you are talking about is an earlier version of the
Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mark I, that was changed after reports from the field
that the sights were inadequate.  I remember reading somewhere that it
was a production short-cut.
I checked my Lee-Enfield (gift from my sons this Christmas) and it has a
dual sight with what I believe is called a "battlefield" sight for
shortranges and a flip-up sight which can be set for up to 1200 yards.
This Lee-Enfield was made at the U.S. Springfield armory, and is marked
US Property.  It's also stamped "5 No. 4 Mk I*".  I read that many
Lee-Enfield were produced in the US by contract for use by British
troops.  I read somewhere that the US-made Lee-Enfields were made to
higher production standards than British-made models, and were favored by
British troops.  Does anyone know if this is true?
Finally, just a comment that the bolt action of this rifle is remarkable.
It's smooth and fast, and allows for much more accurate timed fire that
the German Kar 98, in my opinion.  Any other opinions on how the
Lee-Enfield stacks up against other WWII bolt-action rifles?
Thanks,

Jim Benn.

On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Alan Wild wrote:

> The rear sight to the No.4, Mark I rocks front and back to produce 2 sight
> pictures: one short and one long range. They are marked 300 & 600. Does
> anyone know if that is yards or feet. It might sound like a dumb question,
> but many weapons have trajectories that travel through the line of sight
> twice, and it seems absurd that the first pass should be up through the
> line of sight at 300 YARDS. :-/
>
> Anyone,... Sidney?
>
> Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
> ACC - Lippitt - URI
> Kingston, RI  02881
>
> American Legion, Post 102
> I am the NRA.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:48:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 28 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 28 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-1, Stinson Vigilant
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-24s bomb Haiphong and Hanoi docks
in French Indochina and the Bakli Bay barracks on Hainan Island. In China, 9
B-25s and 8 P-40s hit rivercraft and other targets from Yanglowtung to
Sienning; 9 other B-25s hit junks, storage, and targets of opportunity in the
Lushan area and 7 bomb Chingmen; 14 B-25s, operating in groups of 1 to 4
aircraft, hit rivercraft and scattered targets of opportunity at several
other points in S and E China; 120+ fighter-bombers over French Indochina and
S and E China continue to pound numerous targets of opportunity, mainly
river, road, and rail traffic and troop concentrations; rivercraft and
airfields in areas around Kai Tek Airfield in Hong Kong and Canton, Hankow,
and Wuchang, China are severely hit. In China, the 11th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium), based at Yangkai sends a
detachment to operate from Chihkiang with B-25s; the 19th Liaison Squadron,
69th Composite Wing, moves from Kunming to Chengkung with L-1s and L-5s.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 3 mining missions are flown during the night
of 28/29 Mar without loss:
  Mission 46: 10 of 10 B-29s mine the mouth of the Hwangpoo River and the S
channel of the Yangtze River at Shanghai, China.
  Mission 47: 17 of 18 B-29s mine the waters at Saigon and Camranh Bay,
French Indochina.
  Mission 48: 32 of 33 B-29s mine the Singapore, Malayan States area.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 30+ fighter-bombers operating over
and behind the battlelines in C Burma attack troop concentrations, supply
areas, elephant transport, and general targets of opportunity at or near Wan
Hong, Ho-na, Kyu-sawk, Nawnghkio, and Na-ti; 642 air supply sorties are flown
to advanced bases and over the frontlines, where supplies are dropped,
throughout the day.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 29th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 313th Troop Carrier Group, moves from Folkingham, England to
Achiet, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 917: 965 B-17s and 390
P-51s are dispatched to hit industrial targets in Berlin and Hannover; 10/10
cloud cover forces the B-17s to bomb using H2X radar; 2 B-17s are lost:
  1. 446 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Spandau tank factory (318) and
Falkensee armament plant (65) in Berlin; 6 hit Stendal, the secondary;
targets of opportunity are Hannover (1) and other (21); 2 B-17s are lost, 5
damaged beyond repair and 133 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 8 WIA and 19 MIA.
Escorting are 245 of 272 P-51s.
  2. 519 B-17s are sent to hit the Hanomag tank factory at Hannover (34); 431
hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Hannover; targets of opportunity
are Minden (10) and other (5); 66 B-17s are damaged; 3 airmen are WIA. 86 of
99 P-51s escort.
  3. 8 of 9 P-51s escort 3 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over
Germany.
  4. 6 of 10 P-51s fly scouting missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 215 A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s hit the Neuenheerse and Erbach oil storage depots and 11 targets of
opportunity; fighters escort the bombers, fly armed reconnaissance and area
cover over wide expanses of German territory, and support the US XII Corps in
breakout attacks across the Main River in the Dornigheim area and the 2d and
8th Armored Divisions in the Dorsten area. HQ 36th Fighter Group and the 22d
and 23d Fighter Squadrons move from Le Culot, Belgium to Aachen, Germany with
P-47s; and the 31st Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), moves from Jarny, France to Euren, Germany with
F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Unfavorable weather restricts
operations to reconnaissance flights by 5 F-5s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather grounds
the medium and light bombers; fighters and fighter-bombers are limited to
weather reconnaissance and some armed reconnaissance in the Milan area where
they harass communications.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 10 Guam Island-based B-24s bomb Truk Atoll in the
Caroline Islands and, flying separate snooper strikes, 5 hit Susaki Airfield
on Chichi Jima during the night of 28/29 Mar.
    VII Fighter Command: On Chichi Jima Island, 15 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island
hit airfields and defenses.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s and fighter-bombers hit Balete Pass tracts and ridges, installations at
Santa Fe, and ground support targets N of Laguna de Bay and in Cavite and
Batangas Provinces and B-25s and A-20s attack troop concentrations at Baguio
and Ilagan. Bombers hit the Cebu City area on Cebu Island and pound airfields
on Negros Island. B-24s bomb Likanan Airfield on Mindanao Island. Other B-24s
hit Takao and Tainan, Formosa while B-25s hit shore targets along the French
Indochina coast. The 39th Troop Carrier Squadron, 317th Troop Carrier Group,
moves from Leyte Island to Clark Field, Luzon with C-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

28/0047Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:43:39 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

In message <9503280040.AA29017@umnstat.stat.umn.edu> World War II Discussion
List writes:
> JET fuel in a 1942 container?  In the Med?  Does this sound funny?

I read the article to a friend of mine, and the first thing he said was:
"Jet fuel in a 1942 barrel, legibly stenciled Wehrmacht (and not Luftwaffe)
floating in the Med still completely intact... I shoulda put money on that
in Vegas."

(Of course, an intact barrel isn't terribly hard to justify -- a container,
aircraft or ship sunk in 1942 breaks up for whatever reason and releases the
contents of a water tight and/or otherwise protected compartment and one
item ends up on shore.  Next, is the 1942 stamp the date of manufacture or
the date the container was filled..?  Wehrmacht is a little odd, but maybe
not...)

>
> Jim Benn.
>
> On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, James E Irwin wrote:
>
> > From the DoD Newswire 27 March 1995
> > ======
> >
> > :ISRAEL FINDS WWII FUEL BARREL
> >
> >    JERUSALEM -- A barrel of airplane fuel from Nazi Germany has
> > surfaced intact on a beach in northern Israel.
> >    The 53-gallon metal container was discovered rolling in the surf
> > Saturday by a man strolling the beach in Akhziv, a resort near the
> > Lebanese border. It was stamped with the date 1942 and the word
> > Wehrmacht, Germany's World War II army.
> >    Scientists on Sunday found it still contained jet fuel and it was
> > deposited in a nearby landfill, said Haim Shenhar, a local
> > Environment Ministry official.
> >    "It was completely whole after more than 50 years in the sea,"
> > Shenhar said. "This is the first time we have found such a
> > phenomenon."
> >    Environment Ministry spokesman Iftah Kramer said the barrel was
> > probably carried over by currents from Italy or other Mediterranean
> > countries.


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:48:51 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux

> > There is something profoundly obscene about auctioning
> >   a Victoria Cross ... or a Congressional Medal of Honor ...
> >   or ...?
> >
> > It should be earned by service and/or revered as a
> >   remembrance -- never bought and sold.

These medals, when no longer of value to a family (or perhaps no family to
pass them on to) should find their way to museums.

But $12-$20K?  How many museums can really put out that kind of money for a
single medal?  That money is raised through very hard work and good management
and I hate to say it, but for nearly every museum, that kind of investment is
beyond fiscal responsibility.

If up for sale, it more often that not finds its way to a private collector,
taking the artifact out of sight and mind of the public.  When it finds its
way back into public display, the story of the owner may have been lost.

These are awards.  They should never become commodities.


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Mar 1995 to 27 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 27 Mar 1995 to 28 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 33 messages totalling 1076 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 03-28-95
  2. Raid on Cabanatuan #4
  3. MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum (8)
  4. MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale
  5. Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1 (4)
  6. MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux (3)
  7. BATAAN DEATH MARCH (4)
  8. MEDAL OF HONOR/Old Breed
  9. THUNDERBOLT
 10. Mail List
 11. Bataan death march (2)
 12. Where was the queen?
 13. MEDAL OF HONOR
 14. USS Colorado (BB-45)
 15. INF: 50 Years Ago - 28-MAR-1945
 16. [INF] USAAF 29 MAR 45
 17. Glacier Girl Photographs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 00:00:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-28-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/28 Wed.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             Minesweeper SKYLARK (AM-63), by mine, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 41'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Attack cargo ship WYANDOT (AKA-92), by horizontal
              bomber, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 00'N., 127 d. 00'E.
             Repair ship AGENOR (ARL-3), by collision, Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 33, by carrier-based aircraft,
              off Kyushu, Japan,
              31 d. 45'N., 131 d. 45'E.
             Frigate MIKURA, by submarine THREADFIN (SS-410), off
              Kyushu, Japan,
              31 d. 49'N., 131 d. 44'E.
             Minesweeper NO. 11, by Army aircraft,
              Netherlands East Indies area,
              05 d. 06'S., 119 d. 18'E.
             Patrol boat No. 108, by Army aircraft,
              Netherlands East Indies area,
              04 d. 15'S., 119 d. 05'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 21:53:20 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #4

INSTALLMENT FOUR IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/27/95


Late 1942.
-----------
The Filipino soldiers held at Camp O'Donnell are freed by the Japanese.
The surviving 6,000 Americans are moved by cattle (rail) car to
Cabanatuan City. Then, they are marched a few miles out of town to POW
Camp Cabanatuan.

This camp sits on flat land along the main road running northeast out of
the city. It is 600 by 800 yards in area, surrounded by three rows of
barbed wire fence, eight feet tall, four feet apart. The inside of this
compound is separated by single rows of barbed wire fending, six feet
tall.

There are three guard towers twenty feet in height and two machine gun
pits along the fence rows containing the POW's. A central dirt road
connects the main highway to the rear of the stockade. The camp is
sealed by two wire gates, twelve feet high. All the buildings in the
camp are constructed of wood, bamboo, and nipa-grass except for three
corrugated metal sheds on the opposite side of the POW area. These sheds
usually contain two trucks and one tank.

The POW's are used for a variety of work details. Many die from beatings
inflicted by the guards. A 300-acre farm is maintained by POW's.  It
must be cultivated by hand and watered by small containers carried in by
the POW's. When the crops come, the Japanese guards take most of it.

The POW's receive lengthy beatings and are shot for trying to escape.
Others die of starvation, beatings, and disease. By the end of 1942,
three thousand of the original 6,000 Americans lie buried in the camp
cemetery... in graves dug by hand and pieces of metal and wood.

General MacArthur's headquarters in Australia receives radio messages
from Major Lapham sent on salvaged parts from war-damaged equipment he
manages to piece together. HQ learns that full-scale guerrilla war is
underway in the Philippines. At first Lapham has difficulty convincing
them he is really an American and not part of a Japanese trick.

Guerrilla war continues while MacArthur begins his "leap frog" campaign
up the island of the Pacific to keep his promise to "return" to the
Philippines.

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:23:05 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

Jim Irwin...
        'Something not quite 'right' in that story about a tankful of
"1942 German jet-fuel" being discovered intact on a beach in Israel.
        It's probably just a case of an anachronism sneaking in by some
young reporter who equates "aircraft fuel" with "jet fuel". As there would
not be much fuel for jet planes (German or any other) rolling around the
mediterranean in 1942, the tank more likely contains simple gasoline
< Ger. "benzin">.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:36:37 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale

More to the point, THE DESERT FOX was originally a b-o-o-k,
written by Brigadier Desmond Young, a British officer who
first met Rommel when Young was captured in Norther Afrika.
The movie was -- loosely -- based on the book.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:39:32 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Alan...
        'Far as I remember, the LeeEnfield was sighted in yards.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:53:13 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux

Carlos...
        Very well said, sir.
Also profoundly sensible.

best regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 07:04:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: BATAAN DEATH MARCH

 >I don't know how soon after the event the death march was known. The government
 >was between Scylla and Charibdis, if I may use a classic, and perhaps misspelt
 >names. I think that it feared that the POWs would be treated worse, if
 >possible, than they were should it appear that it knew about the event. In any
 >case, for an outstanding work on the death march, I suggest you read Stanley
 >Falk's book of the same name--The Bataan Death March. Ben Frank

Somewhere in ye olde gray matter is the fact that the U.S.
Government learned of the Bataan Death March sometime in 1943 but
did not make the information public.  I do not remember how the
government found out, i.e., from guerilla's in the Philippines,
POWs that escaped, POWs rescued after the Japanese ship they were
on was torpedoed, etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 07:07:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

 >> :ISRAEL FINDS WWII FUEL BARREL

 >JET fuel in a 1942 container?  In the Med?  Does this sound funny?
 >
 >Jim Benn.

Jim,

You are assuming that the Associated Press got it right and it was
jet fuel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:38:15 +0000
From:    "Isaiah W. Cox" <isaiah@BOREALIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

Jet Fuel?

I doubt it highly. The Luftwaffe did not have a production jet until 1944,
with the Messerschmidt 242, right? Likewise, the Wehrmacht had no jets at
all...

A distinction has to be made. Avgas is high octane gasoline, used in
trucks, boats, propellor planes, etc. Jet fuel is a normal grade *diesel*
fuel (that is why is was so attractive to the Luftwaffe in 1944 -- more
plentiful). Now, diesel had plenty of uses, but not, as far as I know, for
jets in 1942. Isn't it more likely to have been for tanks or ships, and not
marked Jet Fuel but perhaps another phrase with similar meaning (i.e.
diesel)? The report shows it as marked "Wehrmacht" and "1942" -- it did
*not* say Jet fuel. Those were the words of the scientists who found diesel
and gave it its more exotic name, "Jet Fuel". The news report then went
ahead and called it "airplane fuel".

Isaiah Cox

>:ISRAEL FINDS WWII FUEL BARREL
>
>    JERUSALEM -- A barrel of airplane fuel from Nazi Germany has
> surfaced intact on a beach in northern Israel.
>   The 53-gallon metal container was discovered rolling in the surf
> Saturday by a man strolling the beach in Akhziv, a resort near the
> Lebanese border. It was stamped with the date 1942 and the word
> Wehrmacht, Germany's World War II army.
>    Scientists on Sunday found it still contained jet fuel and it was
> deposited in a nearby landfill, said Haim Shenhar, a local
> Environment Ministry official.
>    "It was completely whole after more than 50 years in the sea,"
> Shenhar said. "This is the first time we have found such a
> phenomenon."
> Environment Ministry spokesman Iftah Kramer said the barrel was
> probably carried over by currents from Italy or other Mediterranean
> countries.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:16:37 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDAL OF HONOR/Old Breed

Hi Ben,...
>
>"The Old Breed" by my late friend, George McMillan, is considered to have been
>the finest WWII unit histories written.It certainly conveys why the 1st MarDiv
>is called The Old Breed. If you picked it up at a flea market for less that
>$125, you got yourself a bargain. One of the men in my outfit was James C.
>Wilbur. I never knew what happened to him after the war. Cherish the book; it
>deserves it. Ben Frank

I found Jim's daughter's significant other and had a short conversation.
She, I have not spoken to yet, but expect her to call me soon. The s/o says
Jim Jr. is in Greece. I assume he's in the service, but have no facts. I'll
print out your posting with your appraisal to let them know it's worth.
I also have a post you made a while back when you said you were on deck
when George came aboard your boat. The book is in great shape with a written
note Jim Sr. made to his son Jim Jr. saying, "we did this for you", "with
love"; I can't remember exactly how it goes off hand. I thought it would
certainly mean more to Jim Jr. than to me, if Jim Jr. only knew the facts.

'Thanks for your input, -Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:34:59 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Hi Jim,

I suppose I'll just have to take it to the range and sight it in at
various ranges, 'see what happens. Even though I live in the woods,
the range of the weapon requires me to go down the road. :-/  New
Enfields are on the market these days. I believe they were found in
Scotland, still in the cosmoline. I bought mine for $100 in NRA good cond.
'Will let you know what I find. -Alan

>I understand that what you are talking about is an earlier version of the
>Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mark I, that was changed after reports from the field
>that the sights were inadequate.  I remember reading somewhere that it
>was a production short-cut.
>I checked my Lee-Enfield (gift from my sons this Christmas) and it has a
>dual sight with what I believe is called a "battlefield" sight for
>shortranges and a flip-up sight which can be set for up to 1200 yards.
>This Lee-Enfield was made at the U.S. Springfield armory, and is marked
>US Property.  It's also stamped "5 No. 4 Mk I*".  I read that many
>Lee-Enfield were produced in the US by contract for use by British
>troops.  I read somewhere that the US-made Lee-Enfields were made to
>higher production standards than British-made models, and were favored by
>British troops.  Does anyone know if this is true?
>Finally, just a comment that the bolt action of this rifle is remarkable.
>It's smooth and fast, and allows for much more accurate timed fire that
>the German Kar 98, in my opinion.  Any other opinions on how the
>Lee-Enfield stacks up against other WWII bolt-action rifles?
>Thanks,
>
>Jim Benn.
>
>On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Alan Wild wrote:
>
>> The rear sight to the No.4, Mark I rocks front and back to produce 2 sight
>> pictures: one short and one long range. They are marked 300 & 600. Does
>> anyone know if that is yards or feet. It might sound like a dumb question,
>> but many weapons have trajectories that travel through the line of sight
>> twice, and it seems absurd that the first pass should be up through the
>> line of sight at 300 YARDS. :-/
>>
>> Anyone,... Sidney?
>>
>> Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
>> ACC - Lippitt - URI
>> Kingston, RI  02881
>>
>> American Legion, Post 102
>> I am the NRA.
>>

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 06:12:52 -0800
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: THUNDERBOLT

You wrote:

>
>Well, it's official. I'm tasked with doing a manuscript for a P-47
photo
>book. I'm looking for good sources of the design and development of the
P-47.
>Also - I'd like (LOVE) to talk with anyone who flew, operated,
maintained, or
>built any of these big birds.
>
>
Paul... To bad you couldn't make it to the American Fighter Aces
Convention this weekend in MESA, AZ.  I'm sure that there will be some
sources there.  Call Ward Boyce at 602-830-4541.  He is kinda like the
operator of the Fighter AAces museum and may be able  to help you in
some way.

Larry Godek
W0OGH@IX.NETCOM.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 06:45:10 -0800
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

You wrote:

>
>Jet Fuel?
>
>It seems to me that they didn't really have a "jet"fuel.  It was
different chemicals that were put in the acft before missions.  Highly
toxic and explosive if mixed  together incorectly and at the wrong
time.  How did they grade "jet fuel".  Was the container part of the
mixture?

Larry G.

I doubt it highly. The Luftwaffe did not have a production jet until
1944,
>with the Messerschmidt 242, right? Likewise, the Wehrmacht had no jets
at
>all...
>
>A distinction has to be made. Avgas is high octane gasoline, used in
>trucks, boats, propellor planes, etc. Jet fuel is a normal grade
*diesel*
>fuel (that is why is was so attractive to the Luftwaffe in 1944 -- more
>plentiful). Now, diesel had plenty of uses, but not, as far as I know,
for
>jets in 1942. Isn't it more likely to have been for tanks or ships, and
not
>marked Jet Fuel but perhaps another phrase with similar meaning (i.e.
>diesel)? The report shows it as marked "Wehrmacht" and "1942" -- it did
>*not* say Jet fuel. Those were the words of the scientists who found
diesel
>and gave it its more exotic name, "Jet Fuel". The news report then went
>ahead and called it "airplane fuel".
>
>Isaiah Cox
>
>>:ISRAEL FINDS WWII FUEL BARREL
>>
>>    JERUSALEM -- A barrel of airplane fuel from Nazi Germany has
>> surfaced intact on a beach in northern Israel.
>>   The 53-gallon metal container was discovered rolling in the surf
>> Saturday by a man strolling the beach in Akhziv, a resort near the
>> Lebanese border. It was stamped with the date 1942 and the word
>> Wehrmacht, Germany's World War II army.
>>    Scientists on Sunday found it still contained jet fuel and it was
>> deposited in a nearby landfill, said Haim Shenhar, a local
>> Environment Ministry official.
>>    "It was completely whole after more than 50 years in the sea,"
>> Shenhar said. "This is the first time we have found such a
>> phenomenon."
>> Environment Ministry spokesman Iftah Kramer said the barrel was
>> probably carried over by currents from Italy or other Mediterranean
>> countries.
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 07:54:39 -0700
From:    John Brewer <johnb@THELAIR.ZYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

        There are indeed a ton of Enfields that have surfaced in the
surplus market. Number 4 mk 1's in used condition are selling for about
$59 in NRA good, while new, unissued, in armory gauze and cosmoline are
selling for about $250. The latter come from Ireland. Number I mk III's
(SMLE?) are selling for about 49$ in NRA good condition. Pick up a copy
of SHOTGUN NEWS for more pointers...

        The USA made versions are said to be of much better manufacture, and
from personal observation, the Mauser craftsmanship (german mausers) is
better than both of them.

        /john


 John M. Brewer   wb5oau
 johnb@thelair.zynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:17:00 -0500
From:    Pat Marsden <marsden@ISMAP6.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

On Mar 27,  4:36pm, Jim Benn wrote:
> Finally, just a comment that the bolt action of this rifle is remarkable.
> It's smooth and fast, and allows for much more accurate timed fire that
> the German Kar 98, in my opinion.  Any other opinions on how the
> Lee-Enfield stacks up against other WWII bolt-action rifles?
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Benn.
>-- End of excerpt from Jim Benn

I picked up a No.4 Mk I and a No.4 Mk II last summer for about $90 each.
I agree that they have one of the smoothest actions that I've seen.  I
might have this backwards but I believe the Enfield is cocked when
closing the bolt and the Kar 98K cocks on opening.  That would make a
difference in the speed at which the bolt can be operated.  If I've got
that backwards, I trust someone will correct me. :)  I shot the Enfields
against my Russian Mosin Nagant M38 carbine.  Both had about the same
pain factor in terms of recoil (.303 vs. 7.62x54R cartridges) and I had
a nice bruise to prove it.  The trigger pull seemed to be a smoother on
the Nagant but the bolt action was definitely cruder.  I trusted the
safety on the Enfield a lot more than the Nagant - I don't like having
to cock a rifle in order to engage the safety.  One other comment, the
Enfield produced liitle to no muzzle flash while the Nagant put out a
ball of flame probably 3 feet in diameter.  This was the short-barreled
M38 version and I'm sure the longer M98's wouldn't do that but the carbine
would definitely have the disadvantage in a night fight. The Enfield sight is
graduated in yards I believe.  I haven't tried it out to 1200 yards yet
but I hope to this summer.  The only complaint I would have about the
sight is that the rear sight picture is huge.  But I'll just have to get
used to it.  For the cost, it's a great historical piece.

patrick

--
Patrick D. Marsden          | Naval Research Laboratory     | (202)-404-8229
Computational Physics, Inc  | Planetary Atmospheres Section | Opinions are mine
marsden@ismap6.nrl.navy.mil | Code 7641                     |  and mine alone.
http://power.nrl.navy.mil   | Washington, D.C.  20375       |      * NRA *

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:22:17 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Jim Benn wrote:

> JET fuel in a 1942 container?  In the Med?  Does this sound funny?
>
> Jim Benn.

Probably fell from the aircraft that Julia Child was piloting to the Club
Med. :-)
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:45:24 -0500
From:    JESage@AOL.COM
Subject: Mail List

Please add me to your mailing list.

Regards,

JESage@AOL.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:51:08 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux

> These medals, when no longer of value to a family (or perhaps no family to
> pass them on to) should find their way to museums.

Robert Granvin has touched the key point.  Its not the vet who hocks
his VC or CMoH to put beans on the table but the family who, for what
ever reason, no longer sees that the medal has any interest in the
family and the vet that earned the decoration has long since passed
on.  They come out in estate sales and are sometimes bought or given
to collectors.  The family of GFM von Kleist gave a collector in
Houston v. Kleist's Oakleaves to his Knights Cross and v Kleists
summer tunic that he wore in the Ukraine.  There is a collector here
in San Antonio who collects Congressional Medals of Honor (awarded)
and has several.

> But $12-$20K?  How many museums can really put out that kind of money for a
> single medal?  That money is raised through very hard work and good management
> and I hate to say it, but for nearly every museum, that kind of investment is
> beyond fiscal responsibility.

That is why museums can offer tax considerations to donors.
Otherwise, with most museum budgets (Indiana Jones not withstanding)
purchase of these items on the open market is most difficult when in
competition with collectors who can pay millions for items to suit
their fancy.

> If up for sale, it more often that not finds its way to a private collector,
> taking the artifact out of sight and mind of the public.  When it finds its
> way back into public display, the story of the owner may have been lost.

While true to a point remember 1) some collectors do public displays
of items in their collections :-)  2) some collectors write books
where these items find the light of day as illustrations  and 3) no
collector lives forever.  Collections fall into the hands of non
interested relatives and the items recycle through estate sales.

It is the responsibility of the collector to maintain the history of
items in their charge just as it is for museums.  Some are careful
some are not.  When items like VCs and Knights Crosses come up or sale
with known histories they demand prices that reflect those histories.
Anybody can buy a US Congressional Medal of Honor for $350.00 unissued
in the box.  To buy one issued the price can jump by an order of
magnitude.  It depends on what the medal was issued for.  Guys who
threw themselves on grenades seem to bring less money than the guys
who jump on burning tanks and hold off enemy regiments single handed
with machineguns.  Go figure.

> These are awards.  They should never become commodities.
>
> Robert J. Granvin

In my heart I agree 100% but the market directs otherwise.  There are
collectors who care little for the history but that is not true of all
collectors.  It can make one cynical to see how things that mean so
much to some of us be bought by the rich who treat them like baubles
but I'm one guy with limited resources - I do what I can.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:25:40 EST
From:    Ralph Fasano <RFAS8815@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross For Sale redux

I'm new to this list, but all this talk about heirs who hock or sell our nation
's highest honors at garage or estate sales should think twice. They are
selling their deceased relative's cherished awards for gallantry on the battlef
ield.
Perhaps any heirs who come into posession of these medals might consider a
donation of them to their local community library along with a framed
photograph of their loved one. The library could then display these along with
a description of the action(s) in which the meadals were earned. Thus each
city and town across America would be able to display its own hero's
acheivements. History would be well served by these patriotic gestures!
Ralph Fasano   rfas8815@2uriacc.uri.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:39:43 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: BATAAN DEATH MARCH

Regarding the question of when news of the Bataan Death March first reached
US, I can't provide any definitive answer.  I have a copy of a book
by Lt. Col. William E. Dyess entitled _The Dyess Story:  The Eye-Witness
Account of the Death March from Bataan and the Narrative of Experiences
in Japanese Prison Camps and of Eventual Escape_ (NY:  G.P. Putnam's, 1944).

Dyess was an AAF pilot in the Philippines, survived the Bataan Death
March, and escaped from Davao prison in April 1943.  My copy ends rather
abruptly on p. 182 and may have had a last chapter pulled out of it.  It
does not explain how Dyess managed to return to American-controlled
territory (no surprise), but the introduction mentions that word of
his return was first announced in July 1943.  In September, 1944 the
_Chicago Tribune_ got permission to print his story, but the War Dept.
decided to stop it.  Ultimately, the paper was allowed to run series of
articles in early 1944.  The intro says only after "a four-and-a-half-
month battle for its release," so this apparently was about January
1944.  The story was later printed as the book I own.

Dyess didn't live to see it published.  He was killed in the crash of
a P-38 in December 1944.

Terry Lindell
Department of History

Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:48:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan death march

Hello, Alan!

Just read your post and would like to respond.

> The blame for the thousands of lost men should go to MacArthur who, knowing
> the chances, should have decided to resist. Any way of dying seems to me
> would have been preferable to getting bayonneted in the back if you fell from
> exhaustion. I have a low regard for MacArthur and can not figure why he
> was regarded so highly, other than he was good at politics.

    Perhaps so, but hindsight is always 20/20. At least one is alive
even in captivity, no matter how cruel it may be. Even if death is a
result during the time, at least there is the hope that one will
survive no matter what.

    I can appreciate your feelings toward MacArthur, but don't forget
that he was West Point's most distinguished graduate and he was a
world-class strategist regardless of his shortcomings. His masterful
development of the island-hopping strategy in the Southwest Pacific
saved many many lives while inflicting the maximum casualties on the
enemy.

    These are my thoughts, and would like to hear yours or any one
else's.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:52:45 -0500
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

Hmmmm. JET. _J_ulia's _E_xperimental _T_echnology?

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:00:24 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: BATAAN DEATH MARCH

Many thanks to all who answered my Bataan question.  I will see if I can
find the Dyess book, it sounds like it might be very helpful.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:37:12 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Where was the queen?

>
> Does anybody know where the Queen of England was residing during World War
> II?

Buckingham Palace was her residence last I heard.  She was a truck
mechanic during the war though.  I wonder if I could get her to take a
look at my Datsun.... hmmmm. :-)

Of course she was not the Queen at that time but it is to her
everlasting credit that she did what she could for the war effort.

Long live the Queen!

Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 16:04:31 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Bataan death march

Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU> writes:
> The blame for the thousands of lost men should go to MacArthur who, knowing
> the chances, should have decided to resist. Any way of dying seems to me
> would have been preferable to getting bayonneted in the back if you fell from
> exhaustion. I have a low regard for MacArthur and can not figure why he
> was regarded so highly, other than he was good at politics.

        Actually, MacArthur *was* against surrender.  Ned King took it upon
himself to surrender.  In fact, MacArthur had ordered King to counterattack
on the day that he had surrendered.  This attack was a crackpot scheme that
could be compared to the crazy plans emanating from the Berlin bunker three
years later when German troops were in full retreat.  The troops of Bataan
had had little or no food for several days, were ravished by disease, were
low in ammunition, and had little in the way of artillery support (the guns
of Corregidor faced outward).  When King discussed terms with the Japanese
colonel Homma had sent, King asked for assurances that his men would be
treated properly.  The colonel responded, "The Imperial Japanese Army are
not barbarians."  With that statement, King surrendered his command.  After
the war, MacArthur denigrated King when he spoke of him at all and sought to
assign blame for the Philippine disaster on King and the other men he left
behind.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
I thought I told you to get me a good-lookin'
kid -- not this fat, sausage-chewin' wino!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 16:06:55 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

Isaiah W. Cox <isaiah@BOREALIS.COM> writes:
> A distinction has to be made. Avgas is high octane gasoline, used in
> trucks, boats, propellor planes, etc. Jet fuel is a normal grade *diesel*
> fuel (that is why is was so attractive to the Luftwaffe in 1944 -- more
> plentiful). Now, diesel had plenty of uses, but not, as far as I know, for
> jets in 1942. Isn't it more likely to have been for tanks or ships, and not
> marked Jet Fuel but perhaps another phrase with similar meaning (i.e.
> diesel)?

        Just to muddy the waters further, German tanks used regular
gasoline.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
A Sherman can give you a very nice edge.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:26:17 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDAL OF HONOR

> Insofar as I know, the sale of Medals of Honor is forbidden by Federal law. Ben
> Frank


Ben is right.  It is permissible to trade them though so what the
dealers do is trade you an Air Force Cross for a used postage stamp
and charge you $55.00 postage.  It's an unenforceable law given the
market demand.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:42:44 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Axis Fuel Drum

> I read the article to a friend of mine, and the first thing he said was:
> "Jet fuel in a 1942 barrel, legibly stenciled Wehrmacht (and not Luftwaffe)
> floating in the Med still completely intact... I shoulda put money on that
> in Vegas."

My bet is that it was found to be aviation fuel.  When you tell the
press "aviation fuel" they think "jet fuel" not realizing the
historical facts.

As for it being stamped Wehrmacht, that's typical.  Their 5 gallon
size Jerry cans say that too except for the SS ones.  Wehrmacht means
armed forces rather than strictly army which is referred to as Das
Heere.  The word was stamped into the metal of the Jerry cans and
probably was on the drums too.  I dunno, I never saw a drum but I have
the Jerry cans in my collection.  Same style can was used for water
too but they marked the can with a white cross so they would not be
confused.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:53:35 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Colorado (BB-45)

>
>USS Colorado (BB-45) was one of the two California class battleships,

Sorry to interrupt, but the California Class was California and Tennesse,
they had the 12 14" guns and were the last class to carry them. Most other
features are the same as on the Colorado Class [Colorado, Maryland and West
Virginia] except that the later Colorado's had 8 16" 45 Cal guns in the
main battery.
WV was badly hurt at Pearl Harbor and was not combat ready till late '43 or
early '44. The other two were involved from Jan '42 {CO} and Mar '42 [MD]
in defending Hawaii and later the sea lanes to Australia around New
Caledonia and the New Hebrides Is.


>About technical details, I believe they were about 33000 tons, with
>21 knots speed. I guess their armament was composed by 12 x 14 inch
>guns in four turrets (like the Pennsylvania class).
>
CONWAYS - ALL THE WORLDS SHIPS 1922-46 is a good source for information.
Siegfried Breyer's BATTLESHIPS [or close] is also good and has more detail
on deployment and reconstruction.

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:49:27 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 28-MAR-1945

On 28-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the British 2nd Army sector, the Canadian II Corps meets
heavy resistance as it advances towards Emmerich. The British VIII Corps
advances towards Osnabruck. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the III Corps
attacks north to cross the Eder. In the 3rd Army sector, the 5th Division
captures Frankfurt. In the 7th Army sector, the 44th Division enters
Mannheim.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Ukraine Front enters Austria. In East Prussia, the
3rd White Russian Front is attacking southwest of Konigsberg. Heavy
fighting continues in Danzig.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 1st Cavalry Division captures
Lipa. Heavy fighting is taking place on Cebu Island, where the Japanese
mine a mountain spur and blow it up, inflicting heavy losses on the
Americans.

Ryukyu Islands - The capture of the Kerama Islands is completed.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 20:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 29 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 29 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-24s bomb Kataoka naval base on Shimushu
Island; 8 B-25s weatherabort a mission to Tomari Cape and 1 B-24 flies a
radar-ferret mission along the Paramushiru Island coast.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 B-24s attack shipping in the S
China Sea, at Bakli and Samah Bays on Hainan Island, and at Haiphong, French
Indochina, heavily damaging a destroyer and a merchant vessel. In China, 18
B-25s, escorted by 12 P-40s, bomb railroad yards at Yoyang; 4 B-25s claim 6
small steamers sunk and several vessels damaged in the Liuchow area while 2
others hit the town area and railroad targets in the Dong Giao area of French
Indochina; single B-25s hit targets of opportunity at or near Loyang, Loning,
Neihsiang, Yiyang, and Hsuchang; 90+ fighter-bombers over S and E China and
French Indochina attack troops, supplies, transport, and communications
targets at several places, concentrating strikes around Hengyang, Chuchou,
Isuho, Nanking, and Namyung, and among many targets hit airfields at Amoy and
Kai Tek in Hong Kong; the 22d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st
Bombardment Group (Medium), based at Yangkai with B-25s, sends a detachment
to operate from Chihkiang.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 49: 24 of 29 B-29s fly the last
mission under the XX Bomber Command, attacking oil storage facilities on
Bukum Island in the Malayan States during the night of 29/30 Mar; 2 other
B-29s bomb individual targets on the Malay Peninsula.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): Bad weather curtails operations in C
Burma; 6 B-25s hit troop concentrations and 8 others attack unsuccessfully 2
bridges immediately behind the enemy lines. Transports complete 560 sorties
to forward areas. The 166th Liaison Squadron (Commando), 1st Air Commando
Group, moves from Asansol, India to Ondaw, Burma with UC-64s and L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): All combat operations cancelled
because of weather except for 2 fighters of the IX Tactical Air Command which
patrol the US Third Army front.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Continued bad weather limits
operations to reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort missions by 23 P-38s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, clear weather during the
night of 28/29 Mar, permits A-20s to hit rail loading points, trains,
vehicles, roads, and bridges at many places in the Po Valley as well as river
crossings at Borgoforte, Lodi, San Benedetto Po, Ostiglia, and Casalmaggiore,
a factory at Brescia, and motor transport movement in the Milan-Piacenza
area; bad morning weather cancels medium bomber operations except for a
pamphlet mission over Bologna; when the weather clears about 1200 hours, XXII
Tactical Air Command fighter-bombers hit dumps at La Spezia and other points
near the battle area, the Lavis viaduct, railroad bridges or approaches at
Ora, Santa Margherita d' Adige, Nervesa della Battaglia, Rovereto, Ala, and
other locations, and many vehicles and train cars and other targets of
opportunity throughout the Po Valley and NE Italy; the 16th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 64th Troop Carrier Group, based at Rosignano Airfield begins
operating from Brindisi with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 9 B-24s from Guam Island bomb Dublon Island in Truk
Atoll.
    VII Fighter Command: 31 Iwo-based P-51s bomb and strafe Haha Jima Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): HQ 58th Bombardment Wing (Very Heavy) arrives
at West Field, Tinian Island from India.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s and B-25s
attack Toshien, Byoritsu, and Eiko, Formosa. On Luzon Island, B-24s bomb
Camalaniugan, B-24s and P-51s hit Legaspi and the surrounding area, and A-20s
and numerous fighters hit various targets in SW Luzon. Cebu Island is bombed
by B-25s in support of ground forces while A-20s support troops landing on
Negros Island. B-24s bomb Oelin Airfield in Borneo.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

29/0121Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:58:52 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Glacier Girl Photographs

Announcing another WWW site featuring Dennis Sparks' photographs of the
P-38F restoration.

Through the efforts of Wilber Williams, an expanded collection can be
found at:

        http://quokka.cc.uq.oz.au/www/glacier-girl/home.html


        Enjoy,

--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 23:41:48 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: BATAAN DEATH MARCH

Dyess escaped from Davao, I believe, with three Marine officers of the 4th
Marines--Austin C. "Shifty" Shofner, Michael Dobervich, and Jack Hawkins--with
a couple of others, and finally made their way to the Filipino guerrillas and
finally to Col Fertig's Hq. They ran some guerrilla operations with him before
they were evacuated to Australia and freedom by submarine. Hawkins also wrote a
book, and an issue of Life magazine featured them in a story. Shofner joined
the 1st Marine Division as a battalion commander, was wounded and evacuated the
first day on Peleliu. He later got a battalion on Okinawa. He was one of the
former POWs at the recent Nimitz Museum meeting in San Antonio. Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Mar 1995 to 28 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995 to 29 Mar 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 36 messages totalling 1339 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Where was the queen? (2)
  2. Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1 (6)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 03-29-95
  4. Bataan death march (2)
  5. Re[2]: Bataan death march (2)
  6. WW2 Rifles (2)
  7. 1st Marine Div. - 'found Jim
  8. your mail (2)
  9. "Battle of the Bulge" film (WAS Bataan death march)
 10. Enfield No4 Mk1
 11. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march)
 12. Search Request
 13. USS Ward (DD-139) (2)
 14. MEDIA:Victoria Cross II (3)
 15. BATAAN DEATH MARCH
 16. General Howard
 17. [INF] USAAF 30 MAR 45
 18. Medals and Awards
 19. THUNDERBOLT
 20. 1ST MARINE DIV. - 'FOU
 21. PT Boat info request and ...
 22. V-J Day or V-P Day
 23. Accidental killing of Marine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 22:57:17 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Where was the queen?

Bill Huber...
        Youseem a little mixed on your queens.  :-)
        The original question by someone was, "Where did Queen Elizabeth
ive during the Second World War?"

The answer is that Queen Elizabeth lived in London throughout the war
wuth her husband, King George, and her two daughters, Princess Elizabeth
and princess Margaret.
        It was Princess Elizabeth who became a driver in the army (ATS),
not "Queen Elizabeth".
        Of course, princess Elizabeth became Queen Elizabeth in 1952,
ascending to the British Throne after the death of her father, King George.
Her mother, who was Queen Elizabeth during the war, then became the Queen
Mother.

Sidney Allinson.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 28 Mar 1995 23:09:24 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Patrick...
        The large rear sight opening of the LeeEn which you dislike
in target practice was a great advantage in battle conditions; a different
type of shooting alrogether.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 04:00:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-29-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/29 Thu. Aircraft from two carrier task groups (Rear Adm. J. J.
           Clark and Rear Adm. F. C. Sherman) attack airfields and
           shipping in the Kagoshima Bay area, Kyushu, Japan.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 192, by Army aircraft,
              off Formosa,
              22 d. 40'N., 120 d. 15'E.
             Coast defense vessel NO. 18, by Army aircraft,
              South China Sea,
              14 d. 44'N., 109 d. 16'E.
             Coast defense vessel NO. 84, by submarine HAMMERHEAD
              (SS-364), South China Sea,
              14 d. 30'N., 109 d. 16'E.
             Coast defense vessel NO. 130, by Army aircraft,
              South China Sea,
              14 d. 44'N., 109 d. 16'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:10:37 -0700
From:    John Brewer <johnb@THELAIR.ZYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Patrick...
>         The large rear sight opening of the LeeEn which you dislike
> in target practice was a great advantage in battle conditions; a different
> type of shooting alrogether.

        This is certainly very true. A peek thru a more recent battle
        rifle (say, a FAL or the like) will confirm this. Target acquisition
        thru anything much smaller would be hopeless under real conditions.
        /john



 John M. Brewer   wb5oau
 johnb@thelair.zynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:17:36 EST
From:    Dee Shneiderman <DSHNEIDERMAN@PEMBVAX1.PEMBROKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

There has been a bit of discussion on the newsgroup, rec.guns, recently about
the Lee Enfield.  I got mine at a discount store for about $42 and it is in
good condition.  I agree that its action is nice and smooth, especially for a
novice like me. It is also easy to disassemble for cleaning, refinishing, etc.
It shoots well and I had no recoil bruises. (And I'm just a 5'4" librarian,
whatsa matter with you big, strong guys? ;-).)


Dee Shneiderman
Reference/Bibliographic Instruction Librarian
Pembroke State University
Pembroke NC 28372
910-521-6265

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 08:41:39 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan death march

Hi Terry,... What comes to mind each time I think of MacArthur is a scene
from a movie _The Battle of the Bulge_ with Henry Fonda, you know? The
actor who played "Dano" on Hawaii-50 played a young Lt in the movie. His
unit surrenders and gets MG'd. He survives, discovers other lost corpmen,
who then ask if they should surrender. "No!", he replies. "Just hang loose".
Ok. Movie. But given the fanaticism of the Japanese, could anyone predict
a better fate for their POWs? The Chinese had examples for the world at
that time of what the Japanese were inclined toward.

I believe MacArthur's West Point achievements fell short in guerilla tactics.
Not all american units surrendered, and if none did, the Japanese would
have probably not made it to Guadalcanal. IMHO In Bob Asprey's book on
guerillas throughout history, he identifies that many officers, cut off
by the surprise, formed guerilla units and were aided and in part supplied
by Filipino natives on Luzon. A network setup in the myriad of hilly
islands in the area aided survivors of sunken American ships. MacArthur
failed to take into account the terrain where, in the _The Old Breed_ jungle
is identified as a place where the general principles of war fall apart;
1) find the enemy and maintain contact - very difficult in the jungle
2) bring superior firepower to bear on his position - often not possible
   without significant and expensive air support. Generally you fight
   with equal arms.

Asprey says about "50 groups emerged before the Japs could consolidate their
conquest. They occupied Luzon in the north, the Visayan Islands (parti-
cularly Leyte and Samar) in the center, and Mindanao in the South". Chapt
30 in this book is worth reading. They fashioned weapons out of what they
could. In '43, the Japanese had to increase patrolling due to they're
nuisance. The duty of the soldier is to harass and tie-up as many possible
enemy troops.

There are approx. 114,830 square miles on some 7100 islands that make up
the Philippine Islands. MacArthur could have issued orders that he would
return, fine, and that as many volunteers as possible hit the islands.

This, I would have considered proper. Some groups, Asprey points out, did
"requisition anything they could find, including women, with no notion of
fighting the Japanese." These groups lacked a leader. Had MacArthur
identified their duty, and given them the moral support of knowing that
they would be scattered throughout the islands in numbers, these groups
may not have gone renegade and may have caused havoc to the Japanese.

Best regards, Alan


>Just read your post and would like to respond.
>
>>The blame for the thousands of lost men should go to MacArthur who, knowing
>>the chances, should have decided to resist. Any way of dying seems to me
>>would have been preferable to getting bayonneted in the back if you fell from
>>exhaustion. I have a low regard for MacArthur and can not figure why he
>>was regarded so highly, other than he was good at politics.
>
>    Perhaps so, but hindsight is always 20/20. At least one is alive
>even in captivity, no matter how cruel it may be. Even if death is a
>result during the time, at least there is the hope that one will
>survive no matter what.
>
>    I can appreciate your feelings toward MacArthur, but don't forget
>that he was West Point's most distinguished graduate and he was a
>world-class strategist regardless of his shortcomings. His masterful
>development of the island-hopping strategy in the Southwest Pacific
>saved many many lives while inflicting the maximum casualties on the
>enemy.
>
>    These are my thoughts, and would like to hear yours or any one
>else's.
>
>    All the best.
>
>    Terry

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:30:58 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan death march

Hi Joe,...
He and King share the responsiblity. The Japanese are not barbarians,...
The Chinese had a different story; the Koreans had a different story;
no one listened. It truely was a surprise.

'Regards, Alan

>
>Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU> writes:
>> The blame for the thousands of lost men should go to MacArthur who, knowing
>> the chances, should have decided to resist. Any way of dying seems to me
>> would have been preferable to getting bayonneted in the back if you fell from
>> exhaustion. I have a low regard for MacArthur and can not figure why he
>> was regarded so highly, other than he was good at politics.
>
>        Actually, MacArthur *was* against surrender.  Ned King took it upon
>himself to surrender.  In fact, MacArthur had ordered King to counterattack
>on the day that he had surrendered.  This attack was a crackpot scheme that
>could be compared to the crazy plans emanating from the Berlin bunker three
>years later when German troops were in full retreat.  The troops of Bataan
>had had little or no food for several days, were ravished by disease, were
>low in ammunition, and had little in the way of artillery support (the guns
>of Corregidor faced outward).  When King discussed terms with the Japanese
>colonel Homma had sent, King asked for assurances that his men would be
>treated properly.  The colonel responded, "The Imperial Japanese Army are
>not barbarians."  With that statement, King surrendered his command.  After
>the war, MacArthur denigrated King when he spoke of him at all and sought to
>assign blame for the Philippine disaster on King and the other men he left
>behind.
>--
>Joe Barone
>m1b@ssd.ray.com
>I thought I told you to get me a good-lookin'
>kid -- not this fat, sausage-chewin' wino!

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:00:49 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: Bataan death march

Speaking of the Battle of the Bulge--where was that movie filmed--the
southern deserts of Belgium?  Didn;t look like the Bulge to me!

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:25:44 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Just thought I'd throw my $0.02 worth into the pot on this....

For what it is worth, the No. 4 Enfield has about 5 sight variations depending
upon the model, the date of manufacture, and the country.  The Canadian-
produced rifles were equipped with a variety of sights at different points
in their service lives, including a simple L-type flip aperature with 300 and
600 yard settings, as well as a number of variants of a precision aperature
rear sight combined with a large aperature battle sight (the forerunner of
what is now called a "ghost ring" aperature sight, allowing quick target
acquisition under battle conditions out to about 200 yards).  If anyone is
truly interested, I have the Canadian technical manual at home and can even
quote you stock part numbers! (some of which are NSN, believe it or not).
As to the question about the range gradations of No. 4 rear sights, all the
.303 calibre rifles are set in yards.  Rifles that were converted
after the war to 7.62mm NATO had the sights changed to metres, however.

Both the Enfield No. 1 and No. 4 family of rifles are excellent pieces of
equipment.  Provided that they do not show excessive throat wear or have any
major defects in their rifling, all of these rifles are quite acceptably
accurate.  My personal preference runs more toward the No. 1's, the original
Short Magazine Lee Enfields (SMLEs).  Most of those that are found in
today's surplus market are No. 1 Mark III* variants, which were produced
toward the end of WWI or during the inter-war period.  They are most commonly
found without the magazine cut-off fitted, or with the magazine cut-off slot
unmilled.  Earlier variants can be found under some circumstances with the
long range volley sights, or with extra barrel bands fitted for use as
grenade-launching rifles using a cup discharger or rod system, etc.  The
No. 1 Mk. IIIs were made in a number of places, including Enfield proper and
Birmingham Small Arms in the UK, Lithgow in Australia, and Ishapore Arsenals
in India.  All evidence some slight variations in manufacture and design,
even within the same mark.  Many of the nicest rifles on the market today
are surplus Lithgow rifles, or Orange Arsenal (Australia again) factory
re-furbished rifles that were in military storage up until a few years ago.
Ishapore Arsenals produced some very fine 7.62mm NATO variants of the No. 1
Mk. III, and some of these are available if you look in the right places
(the rifle is still in use by the Indian police in some spots, and the
Indians were famous for producing a .410-bore single shot variant of the
SMLE for crowd control duties).

The combination of the Lee bolt action and magazine design and the Enfield
rifling pattern made for a very successful rifle.  Musketry purists were
unhappy with the SMLE rifles at the turn of the century, however, arguing
that they were much less accurate than the tightly-locking Mauser designs,
and that the .303 cartridge lacked the flat shooting characteristics of
other more "modern" small arms rounds.  This, of course, led Britain into
designing and manufacturing (largely under licence in the U.S.) the Enfield
P14 (P17 in .30-06), which was a Mauser bolt design.  Early on they
experimented with a .243 calibre round, which was indeed very flat shooting
but which also had excessive recoil, muzzle flash and barrel/chamber erosion
(note: this was not the .243 that is available on the market today, but a
full size case necked down to .243 calibre--something of a wildcat round in
today's terminology).  Thankfully for many of the "Tommies" in the trenches
of WWI or the jungles and deserts of WWII, other minds prevailed and the
SMLE stayed the standard issue rifle of the British and Commonwealth
militaries.  The SMLE is slightly harsher to shoot than the No. 4, due to
the fact that it is slightly lighter.  The heavier recoil is most noticeable
when using the standard Mk. VII ball ammunition, but it is said that the
old Lee Metford cavalry carbines were much worse (the SMLE was designed so
that it could be used by both the cavalry and the infantry--up until then,
each branch of the service had adopted their own carbine and long rifle
versions, although many cavalry units adopted the long-barrelled infantry
rifles for their greater range and accuracy while serving in South Africa
during the Boer War).

The other major variant in the Enfield line that hasn't been mentioned
thus far is the No. 5, or jungle carbine.  This handy little rifle is a
darling to carry compared to the full size rifles, but is an absolute
bastard to shoot.  It was equipped with a small rubber recoil pad that
did little to dampen the kick.  The No. 5 was most commonly carried
during the late WWII and post-war campaigns in Kenya and the Malay
republic, etc.

Anyway, I've prattled on far too long.  Suffice to say that I feel these
rifles are very good, and that they gave great service.  As to the Mausers
on the other side of the fence, they were also great rifles, but built
to a different standard and philosophy.  That is another story, however.

Cheers.


--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:22:44 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Hi Dee,...
>
>There has been a bit of discussion on the newsgroup, rec.guns, recently about
>the Lee Enfield.  I got mine at a discount store for about $42 and it is in
>good condition.  I agree that its action is nice and smooth, especially for a
>novice like me. It is also easy to disassemble for cleaning, refinishing, etc.
>It shoots well and I had no recoil bruises. (And I'm just a 5'4" librarian,
>whatsa matter with you big, strong guys? ;-).)
>
>Dee Shneiderman

That's tellin'em, Dee. But on the topic of the peep-sights. I have a
Remington .22 cal. that has a tiny rear aperture. Very accurate, very
tough to get a sight picture of a squirrel. Sydney is right on target.
It's a trade off; a blade rear sight has the quickest target acquisition,
but less accuracy. I believe the Enfield rear aperture to be a good
compromise. -Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:59:00 -0500
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: WW2 Rifles

Those battle rifle fans will be glad to know that a large stock of brand new
Moisin Nagant M44 carbines have come into the country to a company in Southern
Ohio.

I just got mine and it was manufactured in 1955 at the Polish factory #11, and
the finish is far superior to the Russian wartime guns.

So if you want an "out of box" WW2 rifles I can post details.
The M44 is probably "the gun" that defeated the Third Reich.

Also, there are lots of new condition Enfields out there...so the fancier
should act fast!

Best wishes,

Max

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:40:09 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: 1st Marine Div. - 'found Jim

  Yo Ben! I got a call last night from James C. Wilbur, Sgt. He remembers
you well, perhaps for your sake too well. He and I had a laugh about a
time you both were in a CP foxhole on Peleliu. It was night, and you had
to go,... so you did. With the Japanese running around everywhere, he
heard something and turned, bringing the bolt back on his Thompson.
You exclaimed, "Don't shoot, it's me, _____"

So you have a Marine Corps nickname... hmmm. Of course if you pay me, I
won't tell anybody. ;-) (just kidding - all in good fun)

Anyway, he's in Illinois:   James C. Wilbur, Sr.
                            320 Sheridan Dr.
                            Condo C1
                            Willowbrook, IL  60514
                            Phone: (708) 325-6382

Please call him, Ben. I know he'd love to hear from you. I'm shipping _The
Old Breed_ to him today. He should get it by Monday. His son is married to
a blonde Greecian woman, so he says, and is not in the service. He lent
the book to someone 3-5 years back and that was the last he saw of it.
It was good to get word through to him. He remembers Carmen Zapelli who
played trumpet in the band with you guys. I guess Carmen was shot in the
liver at Peleliu and died in Jims arms. It will be the 50th anniv of the
landing, Easter 50 years ago, on Okinawa soon. He told me some trivia
about the cover of _The Old Breed_,... it is made of the recycled Marine
dungarees.

He said he will sign and send me a book his brother, "Bud" wrote, who
was in the 3rd Div.. Bud died last year on the Marine Corp birthday
and was buried on Veterans day, Jim told me.

God speed...

It was only after we talked for quite a bit and hung up, that he called
back laughing with the above story about the foxhole on Blue Beach. He
furtherly mentioned that the Marines had to fight to get out of the surf
and onto the beach. Anyway he remembers quite a bit. He should get a
computer and join the list.

'Regards, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:21:42 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Thank you, John,... very informative. -Al

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:54:26 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: your mail

Chuck (and others)

it does indeed sit by the State Capitol; the surviving members of the
Ward's crew still meet regularly here in town-- I work with the wife of
one of 'em.....

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Chuck McCormick wrote:

> By the way, the Ward was crewed by Naval Reservists from St. Paul,
> Minnesota.  The former crewmen of the Ward formed a club called the
> 'first shot club' after the war and I think that the 5" gun that fired
> the first US shots in WWII sits someplace near the State Capitol Building
> in ST. Paul.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:56:42 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: "Battle of the Bulge" film (WAS Bataan death march)

SPAIN (that's right-- the Spanish Army provided all those M-47s....)


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Wed, 29 Mar 1995, SCHERRER, TIM wrote:

> Speaking of the Battle of the Bulge--where was that movie filmed--the
> southern deserts of Belgium?  Didn;t look like the Bulge to me!
>
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:32:07 -0500
From:    Frederick J Milford <fmilford@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

Just to pick a little nit with the ground and air forces, I believe Ward
carried 4-4"/50s as main battery.  The Farraguts (DD 348-355) were the first
DDs to carry 5"/38s.  I'm talking here about DD 139 at PH on 7 December
1941--there may be another post WW II DD by the same name.

Fred Milford

>
> Chuck (and others)
>
> it does indeed sit by the State Capitol; the surviving members of the
> Ward's crew still meet regularly here in town-- I work with the wife of
> one of 'em.....
>
>                                           Glad To Be Of Service!
>
>                                           Greg Kelley
>                                           St. Paul Public Library
>                                           gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us
>
> On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Chuck McCormick wrote:
>
> > By the way, the Ward was crewed by Naval Reservists from St. Paul,
> > Minnesota.  The former crewmen of the Ward formed a club called the
> > 'first shot club' after the war and I think that the 5" gun that fired
> > the first US shots in WWII sits someplace near the State Capitol Building
> > in ST. Paul.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:34:51 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Enfield No4 Mk1

Allan,
>
>> The rear sight to the No.4, Mark I rocks front and back to produce 2 sight
>> pictures: one short and one long range. They are marked 300 & 600. Does
>> anyone know if that is yards or feet. It might sound like a dumb question,
>> but many weapons have trajectories that travel through the line of sight
>> twice, and it seems absurd that the first pass should be up through the
>> line of sight at 300 YARDS. :-/
>>
This is very logical, the idea being that at 300 yds "Battlesight" the
rifle man can engage any one from next to him iout to about 375 yards [It
is in Yards I am sure] without concerning himself with anything but "aim
middle of target + lead for movement" and fire. The rise and fall will be
about 4-6 inches-inconsequential in the realm of average soldier accuracy.
The 600 yard setting is a hold over from earlier times when long range
rifle fire was deemed effective , mostly because Infantry still fought in
tight masses. The average GI isn't going to hit anything at 600 yards.

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:45:02 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march)

Tim Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> asks:
> Speaking of the Battle of the Bulge--where was that movie filmed--the
> southern deserts of Belgium?

        The tank battles were filmed at a sandbox at the Hollywood park!
Half seriously, though, I think I've built model tanks that were more real
looking than the five-and-dime toy tanks that they used in that movie! I
half expected Mothra to come stomping through the set, kicking the tanks
around!  This movie epitomizes all the worst elements of Hollywood's
attempt at making a(n) historical war movie.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Our CO got decapitated by an 88 three weeks ago...  But don't say you're
sorry; he'd been trying to get us killed since we landed at Normandy...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:06:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Search Request

Hello, All!

Can anyone send me the address of the search service for former U.S.
Army personnel which used to be at Fort Harrison, Ind.? I think now it
is in St. Louis. Thanks in advance.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:07:00 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

Two questions about destroyers?

1. Which class did USS Ward belong to?
2. How many Fletcher (DD-445) class destroyers were ordered/built?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:36:52 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

On Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:59:00 -0500,
Max Calderwood  <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU> wrote:

>Those battle rifle fans will be glad to know that a large stock of brand new
>Moisin Nagant M44 carbines have come into the country to a company in Southern
>Ohio.
>

snip   snip   snip

please post the details...
                           MAO

/====================================================================\
|    Michael A. Oaks                                                 |
|    Systems Analyst                  Music: A means to mark times   |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu              stepping stones through |
|    Kennesaw, Georgia 30144                 your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404)423-6049  Fax (404)423-6541          ~ ~ ~ ~      MAO |
|    VWAR-L #146 - - (Sgt. USAF = / AFCS / AFSS / AFDC)              |
\====================================================================/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:45:29 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Victoria Cross II

>From the DoD Newswire 29 March 1995

:ROMMEL RAID LEADER'S VICTORIA CROSS FETCHES RECORD

    LONDON, March 28 - A British Army Victoria Cross awarded
to the leader of an ill-fated attempt to capture Germany's
Major-General Erwin Rommel in 1941 sold for a record 121,000 pounds
($194,000) on Tuesday.
     Auctioneers Spink said an anonymous British bidder bought the
medal, which had been expected to sell for 80,000 pounds ($128,000).
It set a record for an army VC, Britain's highest award for bravery in
wartime.
     The medal was awarded to Lieutenant-Colonel Geoffrey Keyes, 24,
who died leading the commando raid in the Libyan desert.
     The attempt to capture Rommel behind enemy lines, dramatised in
the film "The Desert Fox," was thwarted by faulty intelligence.
     When the commandos attacked, Rommel, commander of the Afrika
Korps, was 400 km (250 miles) away. All the raiders were killed except
for two who trekked through the desert to Egypt, surviving for two
months behind enemy lines.
     The overall record for a VC is held by a medal awarded to World
War One air ace Major Edward "Mick" Mannock, which sold for 132,000
pounds ($211,000) in 1992.

======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:09:15 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross II

Wasn't Keyes the son of a British admiral on the
  Mediterranean scene?

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:38:31 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: BATAAN DEATH MARCH

If I remember right, the first detailed report of the Bataan Death March
was made by Captain William Dyess, a USAAF fighter pilot who survived
the march and escaped from Japanese captivity. Dyess returned to the States
in 1943, I believe, and gave a full account of his experiences.  I don't
think the March became general public knowledge until 1944.  Dyess himself
returned to active duty but was killed soon after.

Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:09:14 -0600
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Where was the queen?

>         Youseem a little mixed on your queens.  :-)
>
> Sidney Allinson.

Oh, *that* Queen Elizabeth......  {futile attempt on my part to not
look like a total moron}

Ciao, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 18:57:59 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Bataan death march

MacArthur was given to much credit.  It is my belief that he was
more interested in looking good then in trying to defend the
Philipeans.  He is more like a politicain of the 1990'2 then
a great military leader.  You cab take this with a grain of
salt if you wish because I only know what I read for I was born
in 1976.  However I do consider myself well versed on WW II for
it has been an interest of mine for my entire life.
Sincerely,
Chris(KCVK@MARISTB.MARISTB.EDU)
>Hi Terry,... What comes to mind each time I think of MacArthur is a scene
>from a movie _The Battle of the Bulge_ with Henry Fonda, you know? The
>actor who played "Dano" on Hawaii-50 played a young Lt in the movie. His
>unit surrenders and gets MG'd. He survives, discovers other lost corpmen,
>who then ask if they should surrender. "No!", he replies. "Just hang loose".
>Ok. Movie. But given the fanaticism of the Japanese, could anyone predict
>a better fate for their POWs? The Chinese had examples for the world at
>that time of what the Japanese were inclined toward.
>
>I believe MacArthur's West Point achievements fell short in guerilla tactics.
>Not all american units surrendered, and if none did, the Japanese would
>have probably not made it to Guadalcanal. IMHO In Bob Asprey's book on
>guerillas throughout history, he identifies that many officers, cut off
>by the surprise, formed guerilla units and were aided and in part supplied
>by Filipino natives on Luzon. A network setup in the myriad of hilly
>islands in the area aided survivors of sunken American ships. MacArthur
>failed to take into account the terrain where, in the _The Old Breed_ jungle
>is identified as a place where the general principles of war fall apart;
>1) find the enemy and maintain contact - very difficult in the jungle
>2) bring superior firepower to bear on his position - often not possible
>   without significant and expensive air support. Generally you fight
>   with equal arms.
>
>Asprey says about "50 groups emerged before the Japs could consolidate their
>conquest. They occupied Luzon in the north, the Visayan Islands (parti-
>cularly Leyte and Samar) in the center, and Mindanao in the South". Chapt
>30 in this book is worth reading. They fashioned weapons out of what they
>could. In '43, the Japanese had to increase patrolling due to they're
>nuisance. The duty of the soldier is to harass and tie-up as many possible
>enemy troops.
>
>There are approx. 114,830 square miles on some 7100 islands that make up
>the Philippine Islands. MacArthur could have issued orders that he would
>return, fine, and that as many volunteers as possible hit the islands.
>
>This, I would have considered proper. Some groups, Asprey points out, did
>"requisition anything they could find, including women, with no notion of
>fighting the Japanese." These groups lacked a leader. Had MacArthur
>identified their duty, and given them the moral support of knowing that
>they would be scattered throughout the islands in numbers, these groups
>may not have gone renegade and may have caused havoc to the Japanese.
>
>Best regards, Alan
>
>
>>Just read your post and would like to respond.
>>
>>>The blame for the thousands of lost men should go to MacArthur who, knowing
>>>the chances, should have decided to resist. Any way of dying seems to me
>>>would have been preferable to getting bayonneted in the back if you fell from
>>>exhaustion. I have a low regard for MacArthur and can not figure why he
>>>was regarded so highly, other than he was good at politics.
>>
>>    Perhaps so, but hindsight is always 20/20. At least one is alive
>>even in captivity, no matter how cruel it may be. Even if death is a
>>result during the time, at least there is the hope that one will
>>survive no matter what.
>>
>>    I can appreciate your feelings toward MacArthur, but don't forget
>>that he was West Point's most distinguished graduate and he was a
>>world-class strategist regardless of his shortcomings. His masterful
>>development of the island-hopping strategy in the Southwest Pacific
>>saved many many lives while inflicting the maximum casualties on the
>>enemy.
>>
>>    These are my thoughts, and would like to hear yours or any one
>>else's.
>>
>>    All the best.
>>
>>    Terry
>
>Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
>ACC - Lippitt - URI
>Kingston, RI  02881
>
>American Legion, Post 102
>I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 19:13:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: General Howard

The following article is from the US Air Force News Service and
expands on the notice of General James Howard's deathe last week.


277.  Medal of Honor winner dies
     WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- The military's only World War II fighter
pilot to win the Medal of Honor in aerial combat over Europe died
March 25.
     Brigadier General James H. Howard, 81, had suffered a long
illness, according to civilian press reports.  Howard, who lived in
Belleair Bluffs, Florida, died in a veteran's hospital.  He is
survived by a stepdaughter and two sisters.
     Howard earned the MOH for single-handedly protecting a B-17
formation on a long-range mission near Berlin Jan. 11, 1944.  Howard
had become separated from his P-51 unit during an earlier encounter
with Luftwaffe aircraft.
     According to the citation signed by President Franklin D.
Roosevelt, rather than wait for help, Howard fended off some 30
aircraft for nearly 30 minutes and was credited with shooting down
at least four of the planes.  Out of ammunition and dangerously low
on fuel, Howard was forced to turn for home.  His aircraft had been
hit only once during the battle and not one of the bombers were lost.
     Howard was born in China -- his parents were missionaries --
but returned to the United States to finish high school and college.
He graduated from Pomona College, Claremont, California, with a
bachelor's degree in chemistry.
     In 1938 Howard entered naval aviation training.  Two years later,
he left the Navy to join the American Volunteer Group, flying with
Colonel Claire L. Chennault's "Flying Tigers" in Burma and China.
Howard shot down more than six Japanese aircraft and was once himself
shot down by ground fire.
     When the AVG merged with the Army Air Forces in 1942, Howard
returned to the United States and was commissioned a captain.  By the
fall of 1943 Howard was a major and commander of the 354th Fighter
Group, which was the first American unit to receive P-51 Mustangs.
     When the war was over, Howard left active duty to form his own
systems engineering company.  He retired from the Air Force Reserve
in 1966 as a Brigadier General.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Force News Agency                   :  DSN: 945-6164
AFNEWS/IICX                             :  sysop@afnews.pa.af.mil
Kelly AFB, TX 78241-5000                :  131.13.24.1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 19:16:24 -0500
From:    Frederick J Milford <fmilford@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

>
> Two questions about destroyers?
>
> 1. Which class did USS Ward belong to?
> 2. How many Fletcher (DD-445) class destroyers were ordered/built?
>
> Jorge Merino
>
Jorge,

Ward, DD 139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first big
group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers" or "four
pipers".


A rough count of the Fletcher class DDs is 119 in the 1940 group and 56 in the
repeat, 1941-42, class.

The appendix to Norman Friedman's "US Destroyers: An Illustrated Design
History"
is a useful and generally accurate source.

Fred Milford

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 19:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 30 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 30 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 8 B-25s cancel a shipping strike because of
weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 5 B-24s bomb the Samah Bay area of
Hainan Island. In China, 4 B-25s, supported by 24 P-40s, knock out a bridge
at Chungmow; 10 B-25s bomb Hsuchang, 9 bomb Changanyi, and 9 pound the
Yanglowtung railroad yards; 15 P-40s fly escort; 2 B-25s bomb Hankow
Airfield, 2 bomb Neihsiang, and single B-25s attack targets around Fang-
cheng, Nanyang, and Anlu; 100+ fighter-bombers over S and E China hit troops,
railroad targets, trucks, tanks, supplies, and rivercraft especially around
Hankow, Wuchang, Kanchou, and Hangchow; the airfield area at Kanchou and
airfield and railroad yards at Hangchow are hit particularly hard; the 529th
Fighter Squadron, 311th Fighter Group, based at Pungchacheng with P-51s,
sends a detachment to operate from Hsian.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In the C Burma battle area 41 P-38s
and P-47s hit enemy troops and supplies at Loiwing, Pawngleng, and Nawnghkio;
7 B-25s hit personnel, a supply area, and trucks behind the enemy lines in
and near Laihka and at Kongleng; 7 other B-25s attack road bridges, knocking
out a bridge at Loi Putau; transports complete 612 sorties to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): HQ 349th Troop Carrier
Group and the 312th Troop Carrier Squadron arrive at Barkston, England from
the US with C-46s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 918: 1,402 bombers and 899 fighters are dispatched to attack
targets connected with U-boat construction or operation; they claim 8-1-12
Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 530 B-17s are sent to hit 2 U-boat yards (64) and an oil depot (169) at
Hamburg; 263 bomb the port area at Hamburg, the secondary target; 1 hits
Bremen, a target of opportunity; bombing is both visual and using H2X radar;
they claim 0-1-3 aircraft; 3 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 252
damaged; 14 airmen are KIA, 10 WIA and 28 MIA. Escorting are 289 of 304
P-51s; they claim 4-0-7 aircraft in the air and 1-0-1 on the ground; 3 P-51s
are lost.
  2. 448 B-17s are sent to hit the U-boat yard (318) and rail bridge (109) at
Bremen visually and with H2X; 1 B-17 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 225
damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 6 WIA and 11 MIA. The escort is 268 of 287 P-51s;
they claim 2-0-1 aircraft.
  3. 382 B-24s are dispatched to hit the U-boat yard (273) and Bauhaben port
area (85) at Wilhelmshafen both visually and with H2X; 1 B-24 is lost and 56
damaged; 8 airmen are KIA and 1 WIA. 105 P-47s and P-51s escort.
  4. 32 of 36 B-17s fly a DISNEY mission to the U-boat yard at Farge; 14
B-17s are damaged.
  5. 6 B-17s fly screening missions.
  6. 153 of 159 P-51s fly a freelance mission for the bombers; they claim
1-0-0 aircraft.
  7. 11 P-51s escort 5 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.
  8. 26 of 31 P-51s fly scouting missions.
  Mission 919: During the night, 13 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands
and Germany; 19 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions to Norway; 1 B-24 is lost and
1 crashes in the Orkney Islands.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 337 A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s attack the Bad Oeynhausen tank factory, the Munden ordnance depot, the
Ebenhausen oil depot, 2 town areas and 6 targets of opportunity, and drop
leaflets; fighters escort the bombers, fly patrols and armed reconnaissance,
and support ground forces; fighter support is provided for the US 3d and 7th
Armored Divisions near Paderborn and at the Edersee dam on the Eder River,
the XII Corps N of Frankfurt/Main, the XX Corps in the Hersfeld and Hanau
areas, and the XVI Corps in the Marl-Polsum area. Units moving: HQ 322d
Bombardment Group (Medium) and the 449th and 452d Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium) from Tille Airfield, Beauvais, France to Le Culot, Belgium with
B-26s; HQ 404th Fighter Group and the 506th Fighter Squadron from St Trond,
Belgium to Keltz, Germany with P-47s; the 153d Liaison Squadron, IX
Tactical Air Command (attached to Twelfth Army Group), from Euskirchen to
Bad Godesberg, Germany; the 428th, 429th and 430th Fighter Squadrons,
474th Fighter Group, from Florennes, Belgium to Strassfeld, Germany with
P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 60+ B-17s and B-24s
bomb the Vienna N stations and goods depot, the Graz and Klagenfurt
marshalling yards, the Kapfenberg tank works, and several minor targets of
opportunity; 28 P-38s and P-51s sweep the Zagreb, Yugoslavia-Graz, Austria
area and others fly reconnaissance.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 29/30
Mar, A-20s and A-26s continue to pound Po River crossings, loading points,
and other communications in the Po Valley; during the day XXII Tactical Air
Command fighters and fighter-bombers fly some 400 sorties against fuel and
ammunition dumps, stores, bridges, rail lines, marshalling yards, buildings,
motor vehicles, trains, and a variety of targets over wide areas of N Italy;
weather forces the medium bombers to attack mainly alternate targets; the
B-25s bomb railroad bridges (or bridge approaches) at San Ambrogio di
Valpolicella, Rovereto, Chiari, Palazzolo sull'Oglio, Legnago, Ora, and
Romano di Lombardia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 10 Guam Island-based B-24s bomb the airfield on
Marcus Island in the N Pacific; during the night 5 others individually strike
Chichi Jima Island airfield.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown during the night of
30/31 Mar.
  Mission 48: 12 of 14 B-29s attack the Mitsubishi aircraft engine plant at
Nagoya, Japan shortly past 0000 hours without loss.
  Mission 49: 85 of 94 B-29s mine Shimonoseki Strait between Honshu and
Kyushuu Islands; 2 others drop their mines in other areas; 1 B-29 is lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Luzon Island,
B-24s bomb the Balete Pass and Solvec Cove areas; P-38s hit artillery
positions in the Santa Fe area;  B-24s and A-20s hit Legaspi Port and nearby
Little Batsan; A-20s and fighter-bombers continue ground support missions in
the Laguna de Bay area and W of Ft Stotsenburg. B-24s and A-20s support
ground forces on Cebu Island. B-24s, B-25s, and P-38s hit Bongao Island,
Philippine Islands, and the Sanga Sanga, and Kuching, Borneo area.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

30/0021Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:13:49 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

As a collector, I believe that the collecting and trade of medals and awards
has some
positive attributes.

Collectors have assessed a value to militaria that often precludes their
destruction or
disposal. Militaria is preserved and the availability of militaria promotes
the collectors
interest in history. This is what initiated my interest in military history.

I have foreign military items that many people would like to have seen destroy
ed but
collectors like myself have saved.

Literally millions of military awards are given out by all countries
throughout the years and
many have been lost. Many museums have massive collections with multiple
duplicates of
many items. Most of their collections are never shown because of lack of
space or interest.

Many people who end up with rare and valuable military items dispose of them
through
garage sales and even garbage pickup.

I can guarantee you that militaria in collectors hands will never face this
fate.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:29:49 -0500
From:    "Paul C. Perkins, M.D." <PERK1518@AOL.COM>
Subject: THUNDERBOLT

Mr. Godek,

     Thank you very much for the lead -- a fellow I interviewed for the
Mustang book, Clyde East, also mentioned this gathering of eagles. Maybe next
year I can get some time off. As for now - I'll be content with contacting by
phone and maybe getting to speak with a few of these fellows individually.

Paul C. Perkins
PERK1518@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 21:13:40 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: 1ST MARINE DIV. - 'FOU

Thanks, Alan, for the update on Jim Wilbur. I knew he lived in Illinois
somewhere, but then heard he had gone to Rhode Island (?). As a matter of fact,
I returned the week before last from San Antonio and the Nimitz Foundation
conference, where I spoke. Another old buddy, C.B. White, is retired in the
area and we have maintained contact over the years. I spent a pleasant evening
with him and his wife. I don't know that Carmine Zapelli died in Jim's arms,
but he died on Okinawa. One of the other guys in the outfit was cleaning his
M-1 and had an accidental discharge. It was an armor-piercing round which went
through Carmine's stomach and just about destroyed the knee of his pup-tent
mate, a kid by the name of Lieberkowski, whom we called "Chicken." Carmine died
because he was so scared and in shock, his veins were deflated and the corpsman
couldn't a needle and plasma into him. We watched him die. C.B. and I spoke of
him just the other night. The guy who shot him was hustled out of the outfit
immediately and no one ever saw him again, except I did in my home town of
Stamford. This guy was older than the rest of us, a draftee, and not too well
liked. He was a hair dresser in civilian life. When I met him, a number of
years after the war, he still didn't know what happened. I told him. This is
something he'll have to live with for the rest of his life. Anyway, thanks for
the information. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 21:21:27 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PT Boat info request and ...

Ralph,

Look up:

   Fast Fighting Boats 1870-1945
   Their Design, Construction and Use
   By Harald Fock
   Naval Institute Press
   1978 Nautical Publishing Company Limited
   ISBN 0-87021-820-4

This book has several references about Herreschoff Mfg. Co.

The author indicates , page 137, Herreschoff manufactured MTB 283-290 were
delivered to the Royal Navy under lend-lease.

I could not find a reference of these boats going to Russia.

In:

U.S. Small Combatants
An Illustrated Design History
by Norman Friedman
1987 Naval Institute Press
ISBN 0-87021-713-5

Table on page 503 indicate Herreshoff built US PT numbers 29-36 where went to
Great Britian as Lend-Lease to become MTBs 287-294.

It is possable that the PT numbers 29-36 were re-issued to active US PT boats
used during the war.

Many American PT boats, British MTBs and German R and S boats were used by
foreign navies up to the 1970's. If you research older Jane's Fighting Ships,
you will run across listings of operational WWII vintage fast attack craft.

I hope this helps.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:25:50 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: V-J Day or V-P Day

At the risk of shattering some stereotypes of me, I'd like
  to say that -- after 50 years -- changing the name of the day
  of the end of the war in the Pacific from V-J (Victory over
  Japan) to V-P (Victory in the Pacific) Day sounds like a very
  good, constructive idea ... at least on ONE CONDITION.

I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
  correspondence, etc.  Surely, the use of VJ Day at the end of
  the war and in the 50 years since should be noted in
  history books.

However, the ultimate historical emphasis should be on the fact
  that this was as much a victory for the Japanese (*people*),
  as it was for their opponents.  I don't mean this in respect
  to the postwar Japanese economic resurgence.  I mean this in
  regard to their social and political liberalization and
  integration with the rest of our world community.

Our enemies should not be -- or have been -- the Japanese people,
  but rather the Japanese Militarism (and militarists) which they
  followed.  (VJM Day?)  Even for WWII veterans, it is time to
  stop seeing the Japanese *people* as enemies.  (An important
  opportunity for reconciliation was lost, when the Pearl Harbor
  Survivors' Association blocked the inclusion of CDR Fuchida --
  who had done everything possible to express his own personal
  repentance for the attack -- from the ceremonies in 1991.)

However, there *IS* one condition I have for this "enlightened"
  renaming to "VP Day" -- AND for Japan's inclusion in the U.N.
  Security Council -- and that is

    Japan's public acknowledgement of the evil of Japanese
  Militarism and of *that institution's* ultimate responsibility/
  guilt for the grief and destruction of the Asian-Pacific
  War -- to include an internationally acceptable coverage of
  that in Japanese schools and textbooks.

    This is why I believe an International Historical
Commission on the Asian-Pacific War is so vital at this
critical moment in the world's history:  If Japanese
Militarism is let off the hook for the War and its tragedies
(by misguided Western historians attempting to rewrite
history for the sake of academic exercise and novelty, say)
that monster and those tragedies might well happen again.
Such a commission should be truly representative of the member
countries and be composed of veterans and political leaders --
not just academics.  (After fair consideration, the American
Historical Commission rejected my idea, saying that the academic
conferences, etc., should be enough.)

  It should also be remembered that the UN was created in
opposition to Axis militarism/totalitarianism and that ideology
should be clearly renounced/denounced before any nation is
allowed membership on the Security Council.

  We MUST reach an international resolution and reconciliation
on the history of the Asian-Pacific War.  Please support my
proposal.

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:31:15 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Accidental killing of Marine

Interesting.

On VWAR-L, a former Marine described a similar occurrence
  in Vietnam, where the victim had both of his arms shot off
  by a squadmate by accident.

However, in this case a young Marine officer pulled out his
  .45 and executed the perpetrator on the spot.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 19:50:15 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Victoria Cross II

Hello, Lou!
He was the son of Admiral Sir Roger Keyes of Zeebrugge fame, the predecessor
of Lord Louis Mountbatten as head of Combined Operations (Commandos).
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us


On Wed, 29 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Wasn't Keyes the son of a British admiral on the
>   Mediterranean scene?
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995 to 29 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 29 Mar 1995 to 30 Mar 1995
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Status: O

There are 52 messages totalling 2427 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USS Ward (DD-139) (4)
  2. Geoffrey Keyes, VC
  3. V-J Day or V-P Day
  4. Search Request (2)
  5. Raid on Cabanatuan #5
  6. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march)
  7. INF: USN Chronology 03-30-95
  8. WW2 Rifles (2)
  9. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death (2)
 10. MEDIA:Ernst Junger
 11. 1ST MARINE DIV. - 'FOU
 12. INF: 50 Years Ago - 30-MAR-1945
 13. Re[2]: Bataan death march
 14. Re[2]: Bataan death march - book
 15. Shanghai shore leave
 16. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (7)
 17. Great World War II movies. (6)
 18. Paul H. Silverstone
 19. Re[2]: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge
 20. Warbirds In Liechtenstein
 21. Opinions wanted on book (2)
 22. Medals and Awards
 23. Belgians
 24. Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
 25. MOVIE: Best (Was Battle of the Bulge)
 26. WW2 movies (3)
 27. <No subject given> (2)
 28. WWII Movies
 29. SHANGHAI SHORE LEAVE
 30. ACCIDENTAL KILLING OF
 31. V-J DAY OR V-P DAY

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 00:41:23 -0500
From:    Paul Silverstone <paulh@PHANTOM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

On Wed, 29 Mar 1995, Jorge Merino wrote:

> Two questions about destroyers?
>
> 1. Which class did USS Ward belong to?

USS Ward (DD 139) was a flush-deck destroyer, Wickes class.

> 2. How many Fletcher (DD-445) class destroyers were ordered/built?
>
175 Fletcher class destroyers were built.  9 were canceled in 1941 &
reordered under other numbers/

Paul H. Silverstone

>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 00:45:20 -0500
From:    Paul Silverstone <paulh@PHANTOM.COM>
Subject: Geoffrey Keyes, VC

Geoffrey Keyes who was awarded the VC posthumously was the son of
Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes, later Lord Keyes, the hero of
Zeebrugge in World War I and head of the Commandos in WW II.
Paul H. Silverstone

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 00:36:57 EST
From:    Ralph Fasano <RFAS8815@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

To Lou Coatney et als: I agree with your proposal re: the changing of VJ Day
designation to something less defamatory like VJM or even VP; with the priviso
that the Japanese government APOLOGIZE for the action of the Samarai
Milatarists who led their nation into WWII.
But, having said that, I don't think it will happen! Why? Because even
recently there was that debacle over the Japanese government's refusal to
compensate the thousands of "Comfort Girls" who were pressed into "servicing"
the Japanese troops throughout Southeast Asia. If memory serves me, they even r
efused to issue an apology! Also, even though we won the war in the Pacific,
their adverse behavior and unfairness in export/import imbalance indicates
an intraqngence that belies their "civility". It would truly surprise and
delight me if they were to apoligize, a gesture that dosen't seem too much to
ask, but I fear they might view apology as a loss of face. To any latter day
Samari's this might be impossible to do!

Comments?


      Ralph Fasano   rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 01:53:32 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Search Request

>Hello, All!
>
>Can anyone send me the address of the search service for former U.S.
>Army personnel which used to be at Fort Harrison, Ind.? I think now it
>is in St. Louis. Thanks in advance.
>
>Terry
>

Yes, Terry, it is in St. Louis (closer to where I am now, a little farther from Amarillo!). At work I've
got an address and a contact person who is very helpful. I'll get it posted tomorrow...

-- Jim Brady
brady@interaccess.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Mar 1995 22:47:53 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #5

INSTALLMENT FIVE IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/29/95

Spring, 1944.
--------------
In a jungle camp hidden in New Guinea, a special unit of the U.S. 6th
Army is formed. The men (from a great variety of backgrounds and
branches of the military) begin a strenuous training program.  This
elite group will become known as the "Alamo Scouts." Similar in concept,
training and character to our present day "Green Berets" and "Navy
Seals," the primary function of the "Scouts" is to work behind Japanese
lines and gather intelligence about the enemy's positions, strength,
morale, etc.

Major Bob Lapham and Captain Pajota's guerrilla Army on Luzon receives
arms and supplies by U.S. submarine. In the guerrilla war against the
Japanese, bridges are destroyed, and convoys attacked.

The Imperial Army communications are disrupted on a regular basis.
But, at Camp Cabanatuan, the POW's continue to suffer from beatings
and food shortages. Lapham and Pajota devise a plan to attack the POW
camp and free the Allied prisoners. They believe that the U.S.
submarines could shuttle the POW's from the Philippines, rather than
departing empty.

MacArthur's headquarters rejects the idea, and orders them to "hold
off."

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:06:23 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march)

>This movie epitomizes all the worst elements of Hollywood's
>attempt at making a(n) historical war movie.

There is also the famous scene where a lighthouse can briefly be seen over
the top of the dunes.

Not to mention Telly Savalas' tank being equipped with two R1155 receivers
(a type used by RAF Bomber Command) instead of the appropriate US t/r.
British (and Russian) tanks used the "No 19 Set" transciever; what did US
tanks use?

Regards,
Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 04:00:18 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-30-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/30 Fri.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Heavy cruiser INDIANAPOLIS (CA-35), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 25'N., 127 d. 30'E.
             High-speed transport ROPER (APD-20), by collision,
              Philippine Sea,
              20 d. 57'N., 132 d. 05'E.
            German submarines sunk:
             U-2340, by Army aircraft, Hamburg, Germany.
             U-96, U-429, U-3508, by Army aircraft,
              Wilhelmshaven, Germany.
             U-72, U-329, U-430, U-870, U-884, U-886,
              by Army aircraft, Bremen, Germany.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 06:57:23 -0500
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: WW2 Rifles

First off, those WW2 buffs interested in rifles, surplus, parts, military
vehicles etc. should really consider subscribing to the trade newspaper

           Shotgun News
           P.O. Box 669
           Hastings, Nebraska  68902          (402)463-4586

Last time I checked it was about $15.00 a year and well worth it for the
collector or shooter.  Many companies in this paper regularly advertise
surplus, rifles (Enfields, Garands, Tokarevs, Mausers etc. etc.), as well as
all sorts of collectible militaria.

A lot of brand new, unfired, unissued Moisin Nagant M44 carbines has been
imported by:

             Southern Ohio Guns International
             P.O. Box 590, Lebanon, OH  45036

             (information line 513-932-8148)

These guns are Polish manufacture and are the best finished M44s made. I paid
about $150. for mine (about $165-175. with dealer fees, shipping etc.).  I
LOVE mine and am still cleaning the cosmoline off and waiting for better
weather to take it out plinking (It comes with a new sling too).  These are an
unbeatable deal and will no longer be imported.Hurry.SOG also has new Enfield
No.4, Mk II s.

For complete Russian M91/30 Sniper rifles you can contact:

                Century International Arms, Inc.
                P.O. Box 714
                St.Albans, VT  05478        (802)527-1252

These guns are excellent and have the correct Soviet PU scope and are offered
at $350..  They also have unissued (Irish reserve) Enfield No.4, Mk IIs for
$250. The also have original Soviet M44s in good condition for $100. ($250.
for one with a PU scope fitted...nice but historically incorrect).

Another company with Moisin Nagant, Enfields, Mausers etc is:

                Navy Arms
                689 Bergen Blvd.
                 Ridgefield, NJ 07657

Your local gunshop or FFL dealer might already have their catalogs.

Be sure and act since even bolt action "assault rifles" will no longer be
imported.

Best wishes

Max

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 07:27:07 GMT
From:    "RSTZWS@ROHVM1" <ROHVM1.RSTZWS@ROHMHAAS.COM>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death

*** Reply to note of 03/30/95 06:00
From: Bill Shade
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death

Just a question from someone who hasn't spent a lot of time on WWII movies-
What are considered to be the "best" movies out of Hollywood?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:50:23 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: MEDIA:Ernst Junger

Daily Telegraph, Saturday March 25th

Part 1 (abridged)

On Wednesday, [ie yesterday] Ernst Junger - writer, soldier,
scientist, philosopher, tireless traveller,and enthusiastic amateur
of hallucinogenic drugs - turns 100. A contradictory, controversial
figure throughout his life, he has been decorated and damned for his
record in two world wars, praised and punished for his patriotism and
resistance to the Nazis, and banned by both Goebbels and the British
military authorities in post-1945 Germany.

Junger has lived close to violence since the age of 18, when he ran away
from his comfortable middle-class home and joined the French Foreign
Legion in North Africa. The following year, 1914, he enlisted in the
German army. He was wounded seven times in the trenches of the
Western Front, and won, among other honours, the Iron Cross First Class,
and the coveted "Blue Max" - of which he is the only surviving holder.
Today, he proudly displays in his study, his steel helmet pierced by a
British sniper's bullet on the Somme.

Junger's eldest son, Ernstl, was sent to his death in the last days of
the Second World War for anti-Hitler resistance activities. Junger
himself narrowly escaped a similar fate for his peripheral involvement
in the Stauffenberg bomb plot of 1944. He now lives opposite the
Stauffenberg family castle in Wilflingen. It is this tiny village in
Southern Germany to which politicians such as Helmut Kohl, Francois
Mitterand, and Felipe Gonzalez make regular visits of homage.
...
Incredibly, Junger still pours out a steady stream of books - novels,
journals, travel diaries, and reflections on drugs, politics, and
history. His output began in 1920 with "Storm of Steel", a classic
account of front-line fighting...
...
His message of mystic militarism culminated in 1932, in "The Worker",
which calls for a society of worker-soldier-scientists forging a post-
natural order. His writings were grist to the mill of those
undermining the Weimar Republic, but Junger held himself aloof from the
adulation of the Nazis with aristocratic disdain.

Perceiving the bestial nature of National Socialism at an early stage,
Junger nevertheless refused to join other German writers in exile. "I
have chosen a high place," he told a friend, "from where I can watch
people devouring each other like bugs". This clinical, detached attitude
was no accident. A trained entomologist, Junger calls himself
"Always the observer, not the participant".

more later...
steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

FYI, Storm of Steel is, I am informed, available in the US published
by Howard Fertig, New York I believe. It has recently been republished
in the UK.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 07:44:52 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1ST MARINE DIV. - 'FOU

Well,... I suddenly feel like the insulation of time and distance have
been removed and I should tread more lightly. You know, Ben, I don't mean
to dredge up memories that set anyone back; a tough goal given the topic.
'Appreciate your candid posts. I believe the list joins me in these
regards. The personal nature of this thread has run its course.

I'll browse through Buds' book when it arrives,...

Amicably, Alan

Ben said:
>Thanks, Alan, for the update on Jim Wilbur. I knew he lived in Illinois
>somewhere, but then heard he had gone to Rhode Island(?). As a matter of fact,
>I returned the week before last from San Antonio and the Nimitz Foundation
>conference, where I spoke. Another old buddy, C.B. White, is retired in the
>area and we have maintained contact over the years. I spent a pleasant evening
>with him and his wife. I don't know that Carmine Zapelli died in Jim's arms,
>but he died on Okinawa. One of the other guys in the outfit was cleaning his
>M-1 and had an accidental discharge. It was an armor-piercing round which went
>through Carmine's stomach and just about destroyed the knee of his pup-tent
>mate, a kid by the name of Lieberkowski whom we called "Chicken." Carmine died
>because he was so scared and in shock, his veins deflated and the corpsman
>couldn't a needle and plasma into him. We watched him die. C.B. and I spoke of
>him just the other night. The guy who shot him was hustled out of the outfit
>immediately and no one ever saw him again, except I did in my home town of
>Stamford. This guy was older than the rest of us, a draftee, and not too well
>liked. He was a hair dresser in civilian life. When I met him, a number of
>years after the war, he still didn't know what happened. I told him. This is
>something he'll have to live with for the rest of his life. Anyway, thanks for
>the information. Ben Frank

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:10:42 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 30-MAR-1945

[Note - The 50 YA article dated 28-MAR-1945 was actually for 29-MAR-1945. I
inadvertantely picked up the wrong date in my sources. If I have time, I will
go back and pickup the material for the 28th; but I can't make any promises. I
have been very busy lately and have not had as much time for the column as I
would like. That is why they have been shorter than usual and why I haven't
had much homefront news. My goal is to continue writing the column until the
end of the war. At that point, I will make a decision whether to go back and
start back at the beginning of the war. John]

On 30-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the British 2nd Army sector, the Canadian II Corps captures
Emmerich. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the III and V Corps reach the Eder and
begin crossing it. In the 3rd Army sector, the VII Corps continues pushing
towards Usingen, Neufhof and Eltville. The XX Corps is advancing north of
Frankfurt towards Kassel. The XII Corps advances towards Fulda and
Michelan-Leisenwald.

Eastern Front - The 2nd White Russian Front completes capturing Danzig. The
1st White Russian Front continues liquidating pockets at Glogau and Breslau.
The 2nd Ukraine Front is advancing along the Chzechoslovakia and Hungararian
frontier, crossing the Hron and Nitra. The 3rd Ukraine Front continues to
advance into Austria.

Ryukyu Islands - Air and naval bombardment on Okinawa continues in preparation
for invasion.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 07:37:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Search Request

Hello, Jim!

Thanks a million! Looking forward to receiving it.

All the best, as always.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:47:54 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bataan death march

On Wed, 29 Mar 1995 18:57:59 EST,
OConnor, Christopher M  <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU> wrote:

>MacArthur was given to much credit.
 IMHO In Bob Asprey's book on
>>guerillas throughout history, he identifies that many officers, cut off
>>by the surprise, formed guerilla units and were aided and in part supplied
>>by Filipino natives on Luzon.

sounds like an interesting book!! Could you please furnish the full title.

     Thanks,
          Mike Oaks
     moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 07:56:33 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death

Hello, Bill!

IMHO,



































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































Hello, Bill!

For my money, The Best Years of Our Lives is a great one!! I highly
recommend that one. There are others, but this one always come to
mind first when I ponder this topic.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 09:05:02 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Bataan death march - book

Hi Mike,  _War in the Shadows_, The Guerilla in History
           by Robert B. Asprey ... published by Morrow
           ISBN: 0-688-12815-7

'Starts with Darius and the Scythians, 1200+ pages later, 'ends with
effects of widespread famine in Africa.

Enjoy,... -Alan

>>MacArthur was given to much credit.
> IMHO In Bob Asprey's book on
>>>guerillas throughout history, he identifies that many officers, cut off
>>>by the surprise, formed guerilla units and were aided and in part supplied
>>>by Filipino natives on Luzon.
>
>sounds like an interesting book!! Could you please furnish the full title.
>
>     Thanks,
>          Mike Oaks
>     moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:12:13 -0500
From:    Andrew D Field <adf3@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Shanghai shore leave

Does anybody know how I might get in contact with WWII veterans who spent
time in Shanghai before or during the war?  I'd like to know what they
did during shore leave.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:21:45 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Bill Shade <ROHVM1.RSTZWS@ROHMHAAS.COM> asks:
> Just a question from someone who hasn't spent a lot of time on WWII movies-
> What are considered to be the "best" movies out of Hollywood?

        Titles that immediately come to mind are:

        "Kelly's Heroes". This should come as no surprise to those who know
me that I would pick this one.  A "not-quite-black" comedy of a US squad
robbing a bank behind German lines.  It doesn't cover any particular action
but the producers went to great lengths to make the movie authentic.  Plus
it is hilarious.

        "The Bridge at Remagen".  Some heavy-handed acting from Ben Gazarro
(sp?) and Burt Lancaster don't hurt this movie that much.  The performance
given by Robert Vaughn is first rate.  The producers took a few liberties
for dramatic effect but the overall history is correct.  Seeing M24s dueling
with 88s in the opening scenes appealed to me as well.

        "A Midnight Clear'.  Another quirky story of a GI squad's encounter
with a German squad.

        "Tora, Tora, Tora".  'Nuff said!

        "Cross of Iron".  I only saw this movie once many years ago but
I remember it with fondness.

        I haven't seen "Stalingrad", but I've only heard good things
about it.  Does anyone know if this movie is available on video?
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Woof woof WOOF! That's my other dog impression.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:29:04 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

> Ward, DD 139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
> big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
> or "four pipers".

Just a curious question: How were destroyers born? I understand that they
were born by WWI time, but which kind of ship were they replacing? (i.e.
monitors?) Which were the first destroyers/classes and their intended role?

> USS Ward (DD 139) was a flush-deck destroyer, Wickes class.

Does anyone of you know if all the surviving WWI destroyers were still
active during WWII? Did they receive any important modernization/redesign
(like the tripod masts on WWI BBs)?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:03:10 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

To Joe's list I would add the great Otto Preminger/John Wayne
classic, "In Harm's Way", now almost forgotten as it was one of the
last black and white epics and also, Hell is for Heroes.
Just my 2 cents,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:14:35 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

If I had to pick a film on the basis of story, acting and authenticity, I
would have to choose Das Boot as one of the best war films. I have it on
video in German, and it is an excellent movie-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:32:29 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Great World War II movies.

The old film about the Battle of the Bulge, starring Van
  Johnson, is considered one of the two or three best war
  flicks by Don Daudelin, a Western Illinois Univ. staff
  member who is compiling a book on war films.

The old film "Attack!", starring Jack Palance and Eddie
  Albert is riveting.

"Thin Red Line"(?), starring Jack W? and Keir Dullea is a
  gritty depiction of South Pacific combat against the
  Japanese.

The most unforgettable foreign film I have seen is "The
  Ballad of the Soldier," about a young Soviet rifleman's
  anti-tank heroism and then rear-echelon adventures to
  get home on leave to see his mother.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:44:17 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

1. Which class did USS Ward belong to?

According to Janes Fighting Ships of WWII, the USS Ward DD-139 was a Flush
Deck Type, 5th Group. It was one of 7 ships. Laid down on 15/5/18, Launched
1/6/18, Completed 24/7/18. It displaced 1060 tons.

There was also a high-speed transport Ward (APD-16) which was damaged by
suicide plane on 07DEC44 by Japanese suicide plane and sunk by US forces.
United States Naval Chronology World War II.

2. How many Fletcher (DD-445) class destroyers were ordered/built?

According to Seekrieg game rules 175 Fletcher class destroyers were built.

According to Janes Fighting Ships of WWII there were 98 Fletcher Class
destroyers built and 53 Improved Fletcher Class destroyers built for a total
for 151 ships.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:58:49 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paul H. Silverstone

Paul,

     You didn't leave a direct, e-mail return address, so:

     Are you *the* Paul H. Silverstone, who authored/compiled
U.S. WARSHIPS OF WORLD WAR II, the exhaustive little handbook
that is running for upwards of $40 in the out-of-print catalogs,
now?

     On the inside cover, I notice that you have been a member
of the Belgian Nautical Research Association.  I didn't think
the Belgians were/are that naval ... or even nautical.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:10:17 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

I got two more to add to the growing list---"A Walk in the Sun" and
"Soldier of Orange".  Well--let's make it an even four with "The Longest
Day" and "A Bridge Too Far."

Oh yeah--can;t forget "Surf Nazi's Must Die", "Ilsa, She Devil of the
SS" and the classic "THEY SAVED HITLER'S BRAIN!!!!"

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:47:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: Warbirds In Liechtenstein

I realize this request is somewhat off the subject of the list,
but I request your indulgence:

Does anybody know the name and address of an Aviation Museum in
Liechtenstein?  If anybody knows anything about this, please
reply privately to

george.bauer@citynet.com

I'm gone . . .  quickly . . .

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:53:33 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

        Those interested in Moisin-Nagant variants would do well to look
at the Finnish-produced or modified rifles.  These rifles can usually be
found in NRA Very Good or Excellent condition, and are (at least IMHO)
much nicer overall than the basic jetsam and flotsam coming out of the
old Soviet arsenals.  The Finnish M24 and M27 variants are equipped with
a slightly heavier barrel than the Russian long rifles, have very nice
stocks, and come as fully matched rifles (right down to the cleaning rod).
Receivers vary between the orginal M-N octagonal design, and the more
contemporary rounded receiver (produced closer to WWII).

        As an aside to the earlier discussion on sight variations on Lee
Enfields, it is of note that some of the sights on the older Russian
M-N rifles are graduated in an old Czarist unit of measure (can't remember
the formal name off the top of my head, however) that differs from both
yards and metres (I believe it is smaller than either).  This sometimes
leads to confusion when the rifle won't pattern as expected at the
corresponding range in yards/metres.

        Another WWII-era rifle that is readily available in quite good
condition is the French MAS 36 and the later MAS 36/52.  Both are bolt-
actions of a unique (and to some, quite ugly) design.  The bolt lugs are
toward the rear of the bolt body (something similar to the Lee Enfield in
conception if not execution), which necessitates a forward-swept bolt
handle to place the bolt knob near the firer's hand.  The rifle features
a standard 5-rd magazine and two-piece stock.  For added interest, the
MAS 36/52 features an integral grenade launching unit and sight.  The MAS
36 rifles are usually found in Very Good to Excellent condition for about
US $100, while the MAS 36/52 is available in New (some Arsenal Refinished)
condition for just slightly more.  The round is the 7.5 x 55 French, which
could be obtained at one point from Privi Partizan in the former Yugoslavia
(just guess what this ammo is being used for now...).

        Lest the MAS rifles be dismissed out of hand (I know, the old joke is
running through your head: Why are surplus French military rifles in such
good condition?  Because they've never been fired and only dropped
once...), it is worth noting that the current French sniper rifle, the MAS
F1, is built around the basic MAS 36 action.  These rifles CAN be quite
accurate, though I have found that the small rear aperature sight is not
properly regulated for the ranges marked, necessitating either some
judicious filing of the front sight or a bit of aiming off.

        Finally, some of the most beautiful Mausers you'll ever see (quite
a few of them better than anything--save a custom rifle--available on the
sporting market today) are being brought in as surplus.  The Swedish rifles,
the M94 carbine, the M96 standard rifles (29" barrel) and the M38 (WW2
production with 24" barrel) are often in excellent condition and fire a
wonderful round in the form of the Mauser 6.5x55mm.  The Argentianian
M1909 (based on the Mauser M98 action with 29" barrels) rifles and the
accompanying carbine variants in 7.65 Mauser are also to be found in
incredible shape, and 7.65 Mauser round is available in surplus lots from
post-WWII FN-Herstal production.  A number of variants firing the 7x57mm
Mauser round (one my absolute favourites, along with the 6.5x55mm) are
also available, including rifles based on the M98 and M95 actions.  Again,
surplus FN-Herstal 7mm ammunition is readily available, as is commercial
ammunition if need be.

        Short story is that many of these rifles are just too good a value
to pass up.  If anyone is interested in starting to collect these rifles,
I would highly recommend picking up one or more of the standard reference
works on the various rifle designs--they make for fascinating reading, and
form an interesting adjunct to the generic descriptions of the small arms
in use by various forces of the period.

        Cheers.....

P.S.--I'll post a short list of standard references later if anyone's
interested--didn't have them handy when making this post.

--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:36:10 EST
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Opinions wanted on book

Has anyone on the list read the book "Japan's Secret War", by
Robert F. Wilcox (ISBN 0-688-04188-4, published by William Morrow
and Company, 1985)?  It purports to tell the story of Japan's
efforts to develop an atomic bomb, with the bulk of the work
being done in what is now North Korea.  I'd be interested in
opinions on the book's accuracy.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:57:14 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Doug,

The militaria that you speak of may not end up in the garbage can NOW but it
may later on. The next owner may will it to a relative whose interest in the
subject may not be as intense as the original collectors. The collection
could then be seen as junk and a waste of valuable closet space. Where does
it go then? The mind races at this thought.

What about the ravages of time, UV light, acid migration, humidity and
temperature fluctuation, and insect damage? Not all collectors are well
versed in conservation techniques and some of their collections could be
disappearing before their very eyes. A museum is the only place where these
collections can get the proper care. Example, a gentlemen in Dallas owns Gen.
Armstrong Custer's dress uniform, presentation sword, dress hat, and some
other items, all well documented. These items are in the man's house and not
on display for the general public to view. A travesty if you ask me.

My ardent wish is that all collectors would think long and hard about giving
their collections to a museum that can care for them, store them, and display
them like they should be. The public should have a chance to see what is
"behind closed doors" and collectors have many things that the public is
being denied a chance to view.

The next thought in your mind is: "But museums just keep most of their stuff
in the back in a closet!" Yes we do have 90% of our artifacts in storage. The
artifacts on display are rotated though and new artifacts are brought from
storage to replace those that have been on display. In this way the public is
allowed to see more of the collections and the artifacts themselves are
allowed to "rest" from the rigors of display.

The museums are the only places that an artifact has a fighting chance to
survive for an extended period of time. Give these places a chance to keep
our history alive for as long as possible.

My humble opinion,

Matthew Burchette
Graduate Student, Museum Studies
Baylor University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:22:53 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <crivera@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Belgians

>      On the inside cover, I notice that you have been a member
> of the Belgian Nautical Research Association.  I didn't think
> the Belgians were/are that naval ... or even nautical.
>
----There is a great, okay, in my opinion, journal no longer in print, "The
Belgian Shiplover."  It ran for about 15 years and featured some wonderful
articles in English.
CRivera

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:25:21 -0800
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

        I have to go with "A Bridge Too Far" and "The Great Escape" as
two of the best World War II movies.  Some of the British WWII era
propaganda movies are also very good.  They are much better than the U.S.
propaganda movies.

Patrick Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:31:20 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Barone wrote:

>         I haven't seen "Stalingrad", but I've only heard good things
> about it.  Does anyone know if this movie is available on video?

Joe, I've seen it up in Canada (Toronto) and Sidney says he's rented it in
Vancouver, but I have yet to find anyone in a video store here in Boston
who knows what I'm talking about (and not for want of trying).
Unfortunately, I only saw copies for rent in Canada, not to buy, or I
wouldn't be looking now too. BTW, saw the movie in the theatre (also in
Canada) when it was released and loved it (thus my present pursuit of it).
Cheers, David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:44:29 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

At 3:29 AM 3/30/95, Jorge Merino wrote:
>> Ward, DD 139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
>> big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
>> or "four pipers".
>
>Just a curious question: How were destroyers born? I understand that they
>were born by WWI time, but which kind of ship were they replacing? (i.e.
>monitors?) Which were the first destroyers/classes and their intended role?
>

There are lots of experts who will give you the straight scoop, but my
understanding is that they were originally "Torpedo boat Destroyers."  The
idea was that they would protect the ships of the line against small
Torpedo boats, so I don't think they were replacing any other class.

>> USS Ward (DD 139) was a flush-deck destroyer, Wickes class.
>
>Does anyone of you know if all the surviving WWI destroyers were still
>active during WWII? Did they receive any important modernization/redesign
>(like the tripod masts on WWI BBs)?

Well we gave lots of them to Great Britain in Lend-Lease.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:42:09 -0600
From:    "Jordan J. Gardner" <jgardn01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 09:15:44 CST
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   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
Connected to mace.cc.purdue.edu:
>>> RCPT To:<jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu>
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550 WWII <jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu>... User unknown

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 09:15:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jordan J. Gardner" <jgardn01@ozarks>
Subject: U.S.S. JUNEAU
To: WWII <jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9503300957.A17940-0100000@ozarks>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Mr. Jewell,
Is there anyone on any BB or system that you know of that is specifically
interested in the above subject?? JUNEAU (CL-52) was a anti-aircraft
light cruiser..crew approx 700..sunk on friday 13, November 1942 during
battle of Guadalcanal..close to 200 survived the sinking but only
ten(10) lived..my father was one of them..also on board was the five
Sullivan brothers from Waterloo, Iowa...my father passed away in 1984
chasing a cow that had gotten out of the field..a couple of weeks ago Mr.
Art Friend also one of those that lived died in Miller, MO..that leaves
three(3) that remain alive at this time..Mr. Dan Kurzman has written a
book about the ship "Left to Die", although it leaves out a lot of
information and his research people didn't (in my opinion) do a very good
job it is still an interesting narrative...at present the next re-union
is scheduled for San Antonio, Texas...since there are so few survivors
JUNEAU has been assimilated? with her sister ship U.S.S ATLANTA (CL-51)
for reunions.ATLANTA was scuttled by her crew to prevent being captured
by the enemy...
Thanks,
Sincerely,
J.J.GARDNER

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:51:04 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:

> If I had to pick a film on the basis of story, acting and authenticity, I
> would have to choose Das Boot as one of the best war films. I have it on
> video in German, and it is an excellent movie-Drew

Same people made Stalingrad BTW. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:57:40 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Decision Before Dawn
The Counterfeit Traitor
A Walk in the Sun
The Bridge on the Kwai
Halls of Montezuma
Run Silent, Run Deep

and, of course,

Kiss Them for Me.

And to expand the question a bit, what are the choices for favorite
_fictional_ character of the war, movies or books. My choice is
Sgt. Guy Perron, British Army Field Intelligence, of Paul Scott's               The Raj Quartet. He was played by Charles Dance on TV in The Jewel              in the Crown. Quiet, very competent, he understands both the horror
of war and the need for it in these circumstances, and that the
fastest way back to civilian life is victory at least cost. He knew
his abilities and his limitations and capitalized on that knowledge
as a hero without theatrics. The perfect citizen-soldier.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:02:42 EST
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted on book

Dear Dennis,

John Taylor, head of the Modern Military Branch of the National Archives,
once noted that Wilcox' NA references were indeed interesting, "as
nobody else has been able to find those documents." Enough said.

Regards,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:49:39 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Best (Was Battle of the Bulge)

I really found _Cross of Iron_ (Germans on the Kuban Peninsula) and
_Big Red One_ (follows a squad of the 1ID through the war) as two
of the best for small unit level.

Rob Rush
rushr@meade-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:08:04 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

_The Enemy Below_ -R.Mitchem,... Destroyer .vs. Submarine

The scenario has been played out in other dramatic ways, as on StarTrek
when Kirk takes on the Romulans who have a phase plasma weapon that pulverizes
planets. They must de-cloak before firing and that is their desmise, that
and the fact that the weapon has,... limited range!

bye

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:34:42 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: WW2 movies

        I second the nominations for "Das Boot" and "Cross of Iron"  (the
latter was Peckinpah's last movie, I believe, and tried to be the "All Quiet On
The Western Front" of WW2-- some forced dialogue and a few bad German accents,
but a real good job of conveying the look of the eastern front (north Caucasus)
thanks to the former Yugoslavia's stocks of vintage equipment-- too bad they
had to use SKS' instead of Mosin-Nagants, though-- there is one Mosin sniper
rifle-- also exploding rounds from a PTRS antitank rifle, but a lot closer in
look and feel than many WW2 efforts.  I'll excuse T34/85's in early '43, can't
get too picky).  Gotta disagree with Lou Coatney on "Thin
Red Line," though-- not nearly as gritty and realistic as the book.  But then,
I turned it off after the scene (definitely not in the book) where the GI's
push the jeep full of explosives down the hill at the Japanese.  Lou's other
suggestion, the Soviet "Ballad of A Soldier," is a real classic.
        Okay, enough playing film critic, here's a few of my own additions.

        "Come and See" (Belarus-- tale of a teen-age partisan who survives
                a horrific village massacre)
        "The Go Masters" (Chinese/Japanese joint production)
        "Attack And Retreat" (Italian-- realistic presentation of Italians
                on the Russian front)

        I'm sure I'll think of more

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich


------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:40:01 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Lou mentioned the Battle of the Bulge movie with Van Johnson, I believe
that was Battle Line and yes, I loved that one too.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:51:50 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: WW2 movies

        Two (IMHO) glaring omissions:

        "The Longest Day"
        "Patton"
        "Europa, Europa" (Jewish kid joins the Wehrmacht to survive)
        "Soldier of Orange" (Dutch resistance hero played by Rutger Hauer)
        also, "The Big Red One" had its moments


        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:10:26 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 movies

This might be a little off, but one very good movie I saw about growing
up during the war was "Hope and Glory", which told the  story of the
blitz through the eyes of a young boy. Quite good-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 16:34:56 EST
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

I liked Battleground with a good cast Whitmore, Van Johnson, Ricardo
Montalban(sp?) (rich Corinthian leather)  also D-day with everybody in it
and many others some have already named.    Cheer O!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computing                      202-357-1955_Office
National Museum of Natural History        202-357-4122_Fax
Washington D.C. 20560                   "Rast Ich, So Rost Ich"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 16:42:37 EST
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Lou the movie with Van Johnson and about the Bulge is Battleground.

I also liked The Big Red One.  Although the highlight was Lee Marvin's
acting? or just being himself.  Lee is buried at Arlington National
Cemeterynot very far from Joe Louis.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computing                      202-357-1955_Office
National Museum of Natural History        202-357-4122_Fax
Washington D.C. 20560                   "Rast Ich, So Rost Ich"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 18:56:42 -0500
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Maybe not the best but IMHO some of the better WWII movies:

Wake Island (1942) Brian Donlevy,  Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo (1944) Spencer
Tracey,
Sahara (1943) Humphrey Bogart,  They Were Expendable (1945) John Wayne,
 Sands of     Iwo Jima (1949) John Wayne,  Battleground (1949) Van Johnson,
 The Desert Fox (1951)     James Mason,  Twelve O'Clock High (1950) Gregory
Peck,  The Dam Busters (1954)           Richard Todd, The Enemy Below (1957)
Robert Mitchum & Curt Jurgens,  The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) William
Holden and Alec Guiness - Best Picture 1957, The Guns of the Navarone (1961)
Gregory Peck,  The Longest Day (1963) John Wayne et al, The Great Escape
(1963) Steve McQueen, Is Paris Burning? (1966) Kirk Douglas,  The Dirty Dozen
(1967) Lee Marvin,  A Bridge Too Far (1977), Das Boot (1981), Memphis Belle
(1990) Matthew Modine.

All of these are worth seeing. WWII movies --- I luv em!

Ron Charlton   RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:21:31 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Best of the war movies...

        How could I miss also mentioning:

                ALL QUIET ON THE WESERN FRONT

                SANDS OF IWO JIMA

                THE WAY AHEAD


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:51:34 -0700
From:    Bill Stevens <wrsteven@CARBON.CUDENVER.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Hi,
This is my first post.  I'd like to put in my vote for The Battle of
Britain.  Nice British Aircraft and some so so German models.  Nice sound
if you can run it through a stereo VCR!
Bye..
Bill

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 20:34:50 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: WWII Movies

I'm glad we got the Battleground title right, it has been my favorite movie of
any type for many years.  I'm also a sucker for Sands of Iwo Jima, The Enemy
Below, and Sahara, despite its being woefully hokey.  My problem with the Big
Red One is the landscape; it didn't look accurate, and worse it looked almost
familiar.  Turns out I was right, much of it was filmed in Israel; and I don't
think the countryside passes for Europe.

My next tier of movies would have to include Das Boot, Cross of Iron, and
Twelve O'Clock High.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

P.S. Apropos of books for veterans of specific
     units, my parents still have dad's copy of
     Impact, the book of the 10th Armored Division.
     We also have a magazine type booklet given to
     members of the XX Corps.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:55:26 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: SHANGHAI SHORE LEAVE

Anyone who spent shore leave in Shanghai during the war is known as a POW. Ben
Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:55:33 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: ACCIDENTAL KILLING OF

Lou, I rather doubt your story about a Marine officer executing another Marine
who fired an accidental discharge, that said discharge shot off another
Marine's arms. What is your source of this fairy tale? Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:55:38 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY

Regardless of the rigorous and wiggle rationales for changing the name of V-J
day to something else, it will always remain V-J Day, Victory over Japan Day,
because that is exactly what it was, and I don't much give a rat's ass who
takes exception to that. Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 29 Mar 1995 to 30 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 91 messages totalling 2873 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW2 Rifles (4)
  2. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (7)
  3. Great World War II movies. (4)
  4. Great WWII movies (5)
  5. USS Ward (DD-139)
  6. What If? (2)
  7. ACCIDENTAL KILLING OF
  8. V-J DAY OR V-P DAY  (re:  Ben)
  9. Paul H. Silverstone
 10. Okinawa Commemoration (3)
 11. Medals and Awards (5)
 12. V-J Day or V-P Day (7)
 13. Raid on Cabanatuan #6
 14. mail failed, returning to sender (fwd)
 15. INF: USN Chronology 03-31-95
 16. [INF] USAAF 31 MAR 45
 17. What If? -Reply (2)
 18. MEDIA:Ernst Junger(2)
 19. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march
 20. WWII Movies (4)
 21. WW2 movies (3)
 22. Re[2]: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY
 23. BB North Carolina
 24. USS Ward (DD-139) - and Wickes class....
 25. Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain. (3)
 26. Entry #50389 of LISTS.VWAR-L
 27. Warbirds In Liechtenstein
 28. Artifacts/Movies
 29. WWII flicks
 30. Best World War II movies
 31. Das Boot
 32. More from VWar-L, Accidental shooting
 33. Chechniya in World War II
 34. Swastikas over Elbrus?
 35. THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt
 36. Intelligence on Tirpitz
 37. VJ Day or VP Day (2)
 38. books and movies we enjoy-
 39. MEDIA:Russian Booty on Display
 40. E-Boats Was Re:PT Boats..
 41. MEDIA:Dutch War Criminal Released
 42. MEDIA:German Right to Mourn
 43. MEDIA:Australian Fake Medalist
 44. BULGE MOVIES
 45. Apparent misquote (Re: V-J Day or V-P Day)
 46. Lord Lovat  D-Day Commando
 47. Wehrmacht Atrocities
 48. INF: 50 Years Ago - 31-MAR-1945
 49. OKINAWA COMMEMORAT (2)
 50. Hitler's Nephews (2)
 51. Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:41:57 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

There's a Canadian connection to the Lee Enfield.

        The LE's box magazine was designed in 1978 by James Lee,
a Canadian. He died in 1904, and there is a memorial to him in
Wallaceburg, Ontario. His family descendants there are said to
still have the original rifle.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:27:01 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Joe...
        Yes, STALINGRAD is available on video. 'Saw it a few weeks ago.
However, to my mind, the movie falls off about half-way.
        First part is first-class, showing conditions of German army
ar Stalingrad. From then on, though, the movie shifts away from the
battle, and goes all "alegorical", self-conscious 'symbolism', as it
follows six stubble-hoppers into the snow. Maybe this shift was simply
for reasons of budget. After all, it costs a bundle to film an entire
army of extras.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:19:40 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Lou...
        That Van Johnson movie was
                BATTLEGROUND.
I agree. One of the best war movies. Authentic looking as a newsreel.

        I also nominate among the best of the genre:

        THEY WERE NOT DIVIDED (battle of Arnhem)

        GO FOR BROKE (US nisei regiment)

        TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH (USAAF)

        THE DAMBUSTERS (RAF)

        AGAINST THE WIND (British SOE)

        THE BRIDGE (German boy soldiers)

        THE CRUEL SEA (Royal Navy corvettes)

        ATTACK! (US army)

        STEEL HELMET (US army in Korea)

        A HILL IN KOREA (British army)

        BATTLEGROUND (battle of Bastogne)

        THEY WERE NOT DIVIDED (British tanks)

There are a few more...

        Overall, my own criterion for judging "best" war movies
        -- authentic detail, and a minimum of "heroics".

Enjoy!

Sidney Allinson.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 20:48:13 EST5EDT
From:    "Dr. Tom Veve" <TVEVE@CARPET.DALTON.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Great WWII movies

My .02.  No question, Das Boot.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:55:29 -0500
From:    Paul Silverstone <paulh@PHANTOM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139)

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > Ward, DD 139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
> > big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
> > or "four pipers".
>
> Just a curious question: How were destroyers born? I understand that they
> were born by WWI time, but which kind of ship were they replacing? (i.e.
> monitors?) Which were the first destroyers/classes and their intended role?

The first destroyers were "torpedo boat destroyers" designed to defeat
torpedo boats which were considered a super-weapon in the 1880s.  It
became a super torpedo boat, faster and bigger  and the TB was eventually
dropped.  USN built a number of torpedo boats but they werren't used very
much.  The first DDs were the Bainbridge class of 1898.  See my book
"U.S. Warships of World War I" now out of print.

> > > USS Ward (DD 139) was a flush-deck destroyer,
Wickes class. >
> Does anyone of you know if all the surviving WWI destroyers were still
> active during WWII? Did they receive any important modernization/redesign
> (like the tripod masts on WWI BBs)?
>
A large number of flush-deckers were still around in 1939.  50 were given
to Britain in 1940.  Lots of the others were converted to minelayers
(DM), minesweepers (DMS), seaplane tenders (AVD) and transports (APD).
The destroyers of the Asiatic Fleet were flush-decks and many were sunk.
Some survived the war as DDs.  A large number were scrapped in the 1930s
under the disarmament treaties.
The British DDs were changed as long-range Atlantic escorts.  See
John D. Alden, Flush Decks and Four Pipes.
Arnold Hague, The Towns (a World Ship Society booklet on the British ships)
(1988).

Incidentally some one mentioned the Ward (DD 139) and (APD 16).  This is
of course the same ship as she was converted in 1943 and sunk at Ormoc,
Leyte on December 7 (!), 1944.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 22:59:57 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: What If?

        I have often wondered about the possible outcome of the different
situations in WWII had the Axis especially done things differently.  To
sum up my views as succinctly as possible, I don't think the Axis could
have prevented eventual Allied victory once the U.S. was committed to
their destruction.  I won't even try to muse on whether a protracted 10
or 15 year war would have had continued public support in the U.S.
        The reason I bring this up is it seems to me had even one of any
number of scenarios occured the war could have easily lasted twice as
long (if you believe that nothing short of unconditional Axis surrender
would have been acceptable).  The alternative would have been an armistice
between the Axis and Allies should support for such a long struggle have
faltered on the Allied side.
        Mostly, I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.  I
will outline the scenarios I think could have been pivotal and let any
interested party take the reigns from there.

1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian population.
I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they were
less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As significant as a
British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on the
invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical step.

2.  Had Hitler not split his forces on the way to Stalingrad and the
Germans had at the very least been able to hold in Russia.  The
fall of Stalingrad and the Russians being forced East where presumably
they could have been contained is a logical corollary.

3.  Had Hitler not declared war on the U.S. (Dec. 11/41).  Would the
alliance between Britain and the U.S. vs. Japan been enough for FDR to get
into
Europe as well.  I would be interested to hear what American subscribers
especially the veterans think would have happened.

4.  Had the Japanese decided to approach the Germans about linking up in
the Middle East either as an alternative to attacking the U.S. or as
joint strategy between Japan and her ally.  I wonder what a combined
effort in strategy and command between Japan and Germany might have led
to.  My basis for this scenario is that from what I have read it was the
need for natural resources that prompted Pearl Harbour because
increasing embargo actions from the U.S. were squeazing Japan.  Would oil
in the gulf accessed through a linkup of Japanese and German armies made
attacking the U.S. unneccesary?  Would the Axis threat to the Gulf been
enough to precipitate U.S. action?  I also refer to claims that even
towards the end for Germany she was still capable of sufficient war
production and that only a lack of petroleum prevented a greater military
capability vs. the Allies on the continent.

        Finally I wonder if a protracted war would have in the end
precipitated a nuclear exchange.  The German A-bomb project was set back
by a miscalculation with regards to the efficiency of graphite in
controlling fission.  The Germans turned to heavy water which they were
unabable to produce enough of.  Once the miscalculation was discovered
they were back on track.  The most important point I am interested in
hearing views on is what use the U.S. could have or would have made of
the A-bomb vs. two major enemies not yet at the verge of defeat.  Would
use of the bomb been postponed until a larger stockpile could have been
built up?  Would it have been used to create an armistice?  Would a delay
in its use have allowed the Germans to catch up and if so what
implications?  Perhaps a limited exchange and then an armistice?

                        I look forward to everyones views on any and all
points and any others that you might suggest.  I realise something like
this can descend to the realm of fantasy very quickly which precipitates
my main premise that any one of the four scenarios alone could have
created either a war with no overt U.S. involvement therefore unwinnable
by the Allies or one that ends in a stalemate and an armistice.  (I guess
I am betraying a feeling that North American
willingness to keep fighting if Europe fell would not have lasted much
more than a couple of years.)
                                Kelvin Luther



------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:16:52 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ACCIDENTAL KILLING OF

>
> Lou, I rather doubt your story about a Marine officer executing another Marine
> who fired an accidental discharge, that said discharge shot off another
> Marine's arms. What is your source of this fairy tale? Ben Frank
>
Ben,

     A former Marine on WVAR-L.  I don't remember his name, and I
don't (*think* I) still have the post.  If you want to crosscheck it,
though, it should have been in 1993 and Lydia Fish is the moderator
of VWAR-L@UBVM.BITNET.  I'm not sure back logs can be keyword
searched or not.  (Can they?)

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

     Have we got some VWAR-L members on here?  If so, would you
check with the folks on VWAR-L and see if someone remembers it?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:46:26 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY  (re:  Ben)

>
> Regardless of the rigorous and wiggle rationales for changing the name of V-J
> day to something else, it will always remain V-J Day, Victory over Japan Day,
> because that is exactly what it was, and I don't much give a rat's ass who
> takes exception to that. Ben Frank

God love yuh, Ben, whether you are defending the reputation
  of the Corps or the history of The War (as you believe it),
  you are thoroughly/straight-ahead MARINE.  :-)

Lou Coatney, AUS -- and at least as proud of *that*.
  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:55:22 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

>Some of the British WWII era
>propaganda movies are also very good.  They are much better than the U.S.
>propaganda movies.

Of the 'American' movies, 'A Walk in the Sun' is, in my opinion, one of the
best.

Some of the British propaganda movies were, and have remained, classics. I
suggest just three:

'The Way Ahead' Follows a group of raw recruits from basic training through
to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.

'In Which we Serve' Noel Coward as a Captain D. Very good.

'Target for Tonight'. A bit stiff-upper-lip-ish but filmed entirely with RAF
personnel and 'starring' S. Ldr Pickard, who was later killed in Operation
Jericho.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 22:07:41 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul H. Silverstone

You wrote:


>     Are you *the* Paul H. Silverstone, who authored/compiled
>U.S. WARSHIPS OF WORLD WAR II, the exhaustive little handbook
>that is running for upwards of $40 in the out-of-print catalogs,
>now?
>
The US Naval Institute reprinted this book a few years ago, so it may be
still in print/available.  I wish someone would reprint the rest of the
series.  I am beginning to think I'm funding Q. M. Dabney's retirement
fund buying those books <BWG>.

Ed Kettler
deradler@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:30:33 -0500
From:    ben.frank@HIS.COM
Subject: Okinawa Commemoration

For those interested, the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the L-Day
landing on Okinawa will be held at the Pentagon near the River Entrance at 1100
on Saturday, 1 April. The entire proceedings is to be televised live by C-Span.
The Commandant of the Marine Corps and the Under-Secretary of the Army will
speak. So will I, as I have been asked to speak as a representative of the
veterans of Okinawa. Pretty heady stuff. Also, if anyone is interested, and I
relate the following not out of any conceit, but I will be interviewed on
CNN-International at 1100 or 1115 on Monday, 3 April. Golly, correct the above
to read "The entire proceedings are..." Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:43:17 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Doug Bohannon wrote:

>Many people who end up with rare and valuable military items dispose of them
through
garage sales and even garbage pickup.

I'm inclined to agree with you about this, though like others here, I wish it
were not true.

When my spouse's mother died, I was amazed to find that no one in the family
except the spouse and I were interested in taking several boxes of
miscellaneous memorabilia that included what I considered to be priceless
family photos and items such as navy citations earned by my spouse's father
and a delightful certificate he received upon crossing the equator for the
first time aboard USS Rockaway in 1943. There also were photos of an uncle in
his World War I uniform. I honestly believe that were it not for our
interest, all of these items would have ended up in a trash bin.

Maybe I am not giving the rest of the family enough credit; maybe someone
would have felt motivated to keep them, out of a sense of obligation. But it
didn't look that way at the time.

The bad news is, we have no children to pass them on to.

I would much rather have a collector take the things after we're gone than
have them end up in a landfill somewhere. At least a collector has some kind
of appreciation of what they're worth, even if only in dollar terms.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:01:51 -0600
From:    hansoff <hansoff@USLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

  Do you happen to have any mail lists for rifles and other firearms?  I
would be very interested in adding those to my mailbox.  Thanx...

>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:17:41 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Matthew Burchette wrote:

>My ardent wish is that all collectors would think long and hard about giving
their collections to a museum that can care for them, store them, and display
them like they should be. The public should have a chance to see what is
"behind closed doors" and collectors have many things that the public is
being denied a chance to view.

I can certainly see this point when you're talking about a very valuable
piece like Gen. Custer's uniform. But would a museum really take the same
kind of care with more mundane items? The things I have from my
father-in-law's navy service in World War II, for example, are not the relics
of a major player in the conflict--he was an ordinary bluejacket who did his
part. I say that not to downplay his service at all, but I have to wonder if
a museum really would need or want these items.

I guess I hope your answer is yes, because I really do worry what will happen
when the spouse and I are not around to cherish this stuff.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:18:21 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Great WWII movies

>Just a question from someone who hasn't spent a lot of time on WWII movies-
What are considered to be the "best" movies out of Hollywood?

I haven't seen my favorite mentioned yet: *The Enemy Below*. Some of my other
favorites already have been mentioned, but I'll cast my vote anyway:

*Kelly's Heroes*, *Tora, Tora, Tora*, *Das Boot*, and *A Bridge Too Far*.

And for who-needs-accuracy, cheesy fun, I also enjoy:

*Torpedo Run*, *Up Periscope*, *Operation Pacific* and *Action in the North
Atlantic* (yeah, I know--it's a propaganda film. I still like it.) Guess who
is the submarine enthusiast in this crowd...!

I'm probably going to draw fire for this one, but honestly, I loved *The
Winds of War* and *War and Remembrance*.

Jodi Berls
jbersl@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:18:24 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

Lou Coatney wrote:

>I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
  correspondence, etc.

It's my personal opinion that the fact that this came from the Clinton
administration is a major contributor to the uproar -- I have to wonder
whether this might've gone over better if it had been proposed by George
Bush, veteran and president. It's pretty darned offensive coming from Slick
Willie, if you ask me.

>However, the ultimate historical emphasis should be on the fact
  that this was as much a victory for the Japanese (*people*),
  as it was for their opponents.

I agree with your postulate that it *was* for the greater good of the
Japanese people, though that's not why we did it and they didn't think so at
the time. However, don't you think that "ultimate historical emphasis* might
be a bit strong? To me, that means the victory for the Japanese people is
somehow more important than the victory for the Filipinos, the Chinese, etc.
And I don't think it was. Perhaps I'm reading too much into your phrasing. If
so, I wish you'd clarify what you mean by *ultimate historical emphasis*.

>    Japan's public acknowledgement of the evil of Japanese
  Militarism and of *that institution's* ultimate responsibility/
  guilt for the grief and destruction of the Asian-Pacific
  War -- to include an internationally acceptable coverage of
  that in Japanese schools and textbooks.

Good Lord, Lou--this does shatter my preconceptions of you. I'd never have
*dreamed* you were such an optimist! If this is the condition, I suspect V-J
Day is safe for decades.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:27:42 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #6

INSTALLMENT SIX IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/30/95

April, 1944.
------------

New Guinea. The 98th Field Artillery, Sixth Army, composed mostly
of men from the rural farms and mountains of America, had been held
mostly at Fort Moresby for a year with no special assignment in the War.
Headquarters prepares to convert this unit of big men into a Ranger
Battalion, similar to those training for the invasion of Europe.

Captain James Fisher, M.D., the Battalion Ranger Surgeon, emerges
as one of the key characters. This amiable, curious, yet humorously
absent-minded young doctor, converts everyone he meets into a
lasting friend. One of the closest is 23 year-old Captain Bob Prince,
the calm, and serious commander of C Company. Prince is a graduate
of Stanford University. A natural leader, he is respected by both
officers and men.

To churn the 98th Field into Rangers, 6th Army chooses a pipe-smoking
West Pointer, 33 year-old Lieutenant Henry Mucci. A dramatic
Napoleon-like character with dark piercing eyes, heavy brows and a
moustache, Mucci delivers a speech the first day of his command...
"I'm going to turn you men into Rangers!" The training of the Rangers
begins. Mucci surprises everyone by going through it all with his men.

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:34:31 +0400
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <oa03-k@SERVIS.NET.TR>
Subject: mail failed, returning to sender (fwd)

      wwwww
    /( 0-0 )\
--oOO--(_)---OOo---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Ozgur "Kilroy"  Altinyay       |                                           |
|E-Mail : oa03-k@servis.net.tr    | "It is unfair to shoot tanks with anti-   |
|Address: A5 BLOK/47 Konutkent I  |  aircraft guns !"                         |
|         Ankara 06530 / TURKIA   |  Anonymous British Tank officer after     |
|Phone  :+0312-2402089            |  his capture in Halfaya Pass, Africa 1941 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 95 01:13 EET DST
From: MAILER-DAEMON@servis.net.tr
To: oa03-k@servis.net.tr
Subject: mail failed, returning to sender

|------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------|
 WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU ... transport smtp: no connection to remote SMTP server: 499 timeout on read from remote SMTP process
|------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------|
Received: by servis.net.tr (Smail3.1.28.1 #9)
        id m0ruRRu-0007KBC; Fri, 31 Mar 95 01:08 EET DST
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 01:08:14 +0400 (EET DST)
From: Ozgur Altinyay <oa03-k@servis.net.tr>
To: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.
In-Reply-To: <m0ruNsw-0007LOC@servis.net.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.950331010521.18543B-100000@servis.net.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> The old film about the Battle of the Bulge, starring Van
>   Johnson, is considered one of the two or three best war
>   flicks by Don Daudelin, a Western Illinois Univ. staff
>   member who is compiling a book on war films.
>
> The old film "Attack!", starring Jack Palance and Eddie
>   Albert is riveting.
>
> "Thin Red Line"(?), starring Jack W? and Keir Dullea is a
>   gritty depiction of South Pacific combat against the
>   Japanese.
>
> The most unforgettable foreign film I have seen is "The
>   Ballad of the Soldier," about a young Soviet rifleman's
>   anti-tank heroism and then rear-echelon adventures to
>   get home on leave to see his mother.

Yes That was also one of my favorites. besides I would also add a German
film "The Bridge" , whose director I can not rember. It was about a
volksgrenadier detachment of teens defending ( and dying) a bridge in the
final days of the war.

And , also Das Boot directed by umm... err. you know that German director
must also be remembered. It was Wolfgang Petersen wasnt it ?


>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

      wwwww
    /( 0-0 )\
--oOO--(_)---OOo---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Ozgur "Kilroy"  Altinyay       |                                           |
|E-Mail : oa03-k@servis.net.tr    | "It is unfair to shoot tanks with anti-   |
|Address: A5 BLOK/47 Konutkent I  |  aircraft guns !"                         |
|         Ankara 06530 / TURKIA   |  Anonymous British Tank officer after     |
|Phone  :+0312-2402089            |  his capture in Halfaya Pass, Africa 1941 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 04:00:11 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 03-31-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
03/31 Sat.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Heavy cruiser PENSACOLA (CA-24), by collision,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 10'N., 127 d. 19'E.
             Light minelayer ADAMS (DM-27), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 12'N., 127 d. 08'E.
             Seaplane tender (small) COOS BAY (AVP-25), by collision,
              Central Pacific area,
              12 d. 07'N., 156 d. 27'E.
             Attack transport HINSDALE (APA-120), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area, 25 d. 54'N., 127 d. 49'E.
             LST 724 and LST 884, by suicide plane, Okinawa area,
              25 d. 59'N., 127 d. 50'E.
            Japanese submarine sunk:
             I-8, by destroyers MORRISON (DD-560) and STOCKTON
              (DD-646), Okinawa area,
              25 d. 29'N., 128 d. 35'E.
            German submarines sunk sometime in March:
             U-348, U-350, U-1167, by Army aircraft,
             Hamburg, Germany.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 31 MAR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 31 MARCH 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 30 B-24s, with an escort of
9 P-51s, blast railroad yards at Shihkiachwang; 12 B-25s bomb railroad yards
at Sinyang while 4 hit the Yanglowtung yards; 6 B-25s damage a bridge and hit
gun position at Sienning while 6 more knock out a bridge near Ninh Binh,
French Indochina and hit storage area at Samah on Hainan Island Bay; 26 P-51s
attack Ningpo Airfield, destroying or damaging several airplanes; 6 of the
P-51s are lost; about 125 other fighter-bombers and several B-25s (operating
individually) attack numerous targets in French Indochina and S and E China
including bridges, troops, supplies, and rail, road, and river traffic.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 12 B-25s hit troop dispersal areas
behind enemy lines in C Burma and hit 1 road bridge and 8 P-38s attack supply
dump at Namsang Airfield. The 164th Liaison Squadron (Commando), 1st Air
Commando Group, moves from Ondaw, Burma to Asansol, Burma with UC-64s and
L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 920: 1,348 bombers and
889 fighters are dispatched to hit synthetic oil plants, a refinery,
munitions plant and tank factory; they claim 9-3-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5
bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 229 B-17s are sent to hit the synthetic oil refinery at Zeitz using H2X
radar; secondary targets hit are the oil plant at Bad Berka (29) and Gotha
(20) visually; targets of opportunity are Erfurt (25) and other (8), hit
visually; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 108 damaged; 1 airman
is KIA; 2 WIA and 30 MIA. Escorting are 117 of 120 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot
MIA).
  2. 294 B-17s are sent to hit Brandenburg (265); targets of opportunity are
Stendal (9) and Salzwedel (9); they claim 0-1-0 aircraft; 1 B-17 is damaged.
207 of 221 P-51s escort claiming 5-0-0 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 371 of 385 B-24s hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at
Brunswick; they claim 3-2-1 aircraft; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond
repair and 3 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 29 MIA. The escort is 253
of 266 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-7 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots
MIA).
  4. 369 of 432 B-17s attack the secondary, the marshalling yard at Halle;
targets of opportunity are Leipzig (8), Weimar (36), Aschersleben (7) and
other (1); 37 B-17s are damaged. Escorting are 225 of 233 P-51s.
  5. 8 B-17s fly a screening mission.
  6. 26 of 30 P-51s fly scouting missions; they claim 1-0-1 aircraft.
  7. 19 P-51s escort 8 of 10 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 550+ A-20s, A-26s and
B-26s hit storage depots at Ebrach, Wurzburg, and Marienburg, the marshalling
yard at Wurzburg, the town area of Rothenburg ob der Tauber, and a target of
opportunity; fighters escort the bombers, hit special targets, fly armed
reconnaissance, and support the US 3d and 9th Armored Divisions near
Paderborn, the XII Corps as it charges toward Eisenach, the XX Corps along
the Fulda and Eder Rivers, and the XVI and XIX Corps S of Haltern and NW of
Lippstadt. The 162d Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group [attached to Reconnaissance Group (Provisional), XII
Tactical Air Command], moves from Azelot to Haguenau, France with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 540 B-24s and B-17s bomb the
Linz main railroad station and sidings, and the marshalling yards at Villach,
Austria and Treviso, Italy and 3 minor targets of opportunity; P-51s and
P-38s provide escort; 37 other fighters on sweeps and strafings attack
railroad targets in the Munich, Germany-Linz, Austria-Regensburg, Germany
area and 43 hit similar targets in the Prague, Czechoslovakia area; still
other F-5s, P-38s and P-51s fly extensively reconnaissance and reconnaissance
escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers bomb
several targets (mostly alternates) in the Po Valley and Brenner area despite
bad weather; B-25s hit bridges or bridge approaches at San Michele all'Adige,
Crema, Canneto sull'Oglio, Legnago, and Manerbio and Steinach, Austria, and
a rail embankment at Salorno; XXII Tactical Air Command A-20s and other
aircraft hit Po River crossings during the night of 30/31 Mar at
Casalmaggiore, Ostiglia, Borgoforte, and San Benedetto Po, rail facilities at
Piacenza and Cittadella, plus nearby ammunition dumps and other targets;
fighter-bombers continue to pound communications and dumps at Lavis, Casarsa
della Delizia, San Ambrogio di Valpolicella, Legnago, and several other
points in the Po Valley and NE Italy; the 97th Bombardment Squadron (Light),
47th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Grossetto to Pisa with A-20s and
A-26s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: During the night of 31 Mar/1 Apr, 5 B-24s from Guam
Island, flying individual harassment strikes, hit Susaki Airfield on Chichi
Jima Island.
    VII Fighter Command: 15 P-51s from Iwo Jima Island bomb and strafe
vessels, air installations, and targets of opportunity on Chichi Jima; 16
more follow with attacks on vessels and harbor area.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Mission 50: 137 of 152 B-29s strike the
Tachiarai machine works, which is completely destroyed, and Omura Airfield
on Kyushu Island, Japan; this is a diversionary strike preceding the invasion
of Okinawa Island which begins at 0830 hours local on 1 Apr; the AAF claims
11-5-3 Japanese aircraft; 1 B-29s is lost and 15 damaged.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Formosa, A-20s
attack an army camp at Saiatan, P-51s sweep from Babuyan Channel to the SW of
the island and B-24s bomb harbors and shipping at Kiirun and Yulin, China. On
Luzon Island, fighters attack targets in the Cagayan Valley and N of Laguna
de Bay, blasting bridges and gun positions over wide stretches. B-25s, A-20s,
and fighter-bombers hit Cebu Island targets, several of the strikes being
flown in support of ground forces. B-24s again bomb Bongao Island and hit
Oelin, Borneo and fighters harass N Borneo airfields.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

31/1232Z MAR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:40:47 -0500
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Jodi,
Yes, yes, yes! Museums are really interested in the more mundane items. The
custers are few and far between but the everyday people are the true history
of our country. If a museum does not feel that they can care for an artifact
well or the artifact just does not fit into their missin statement they
should refuse the item. In these cases they will probably refer you to
another museum that can be of service.
If you would like to know more mail me at Mathoo@aol.com
Matthew Burchette

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:47:00 -0500
From:    Allen Witt <WITTA@ORAU.GOV>
Subject: What If? -Reply

>>> D1.OUT."umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA" - 3/30/95 11:59 PM >>>
> I have often wondered about the possible outcome of the different
> situations in WWII had the Axis especially done things differently.
 To

> 1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
> strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian
population.
> I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they
were
> less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As
significant
> as a British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on
the
>  invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical
step.

Remember Dunkirk. If Germany had destroyed british forces there, it
would have had a far greater effect from the military and public
opinion  points of view. The defeat of the forces in France was, to
some
extent, nutralized by the fact that many of the troops managed to
escape to fight again. The combined effect of a Dunkirk defeat
with destruction of the troops,  continued strategic bombing, and
a successful invasion of Britain would have changed the war
dramatically. Without bases in Britain to launch air attacks into
Germany and France, the war would have lasted longer, and
invasion of Europe from the west would have been difficult or
impossible without first retaking the British islands.

> 2.  Had Hitler not split his forces on the way to Stalingrad and
the
> Germans had at the very least been able to hold in Russia.  The
> fall of Stalingrad and the Russians being forced East where
> presumably they could have been contained is a logical corollary.

What if Germany had delayed the invasion of Russia, and
concentrated it's forces on the defeat of England? Consider what
would have happened if England was defeated and occupied before
12/7/41.

Or consider this....What if Russia had not been invaded at all? Would
Russia have remained neutral? Italy-Germany-Japan vs
USA-China-remaining British commonwealth?

Allen Witt
WITTA@ORAU.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:52:38 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: MEDIA:Ernst Junger(2)

continued....

Sometimes, however, his desire to follow his scientific bent led to
other forms of participation. He was one of the first to sample LSD,
the new drug synthesised in the 1920s by his friend, the Swiss chemist
Albert Hoffmann
...
His best known book, "On The Marble Cliffs", has the hallucinatory
quality of an opium dream. Published in 1939, just as Junger was
re-enlisting in the Wehrmacht, it is an unmistakable allegory of the
Nazi plague that had overtaken Germany, foretelling, with uncanny
prescience, the obscenity of the concentration camps and the
resistance to Hitler among the aristocratic and military circles to
which Junger became privy as an officer in occupied Paris. The book
was banned by the Nazis, who belatedly realised its subversive message
after it had become a bestseller.
After the rigours of the First World War in the trenches, Junger spent
a comfortable Second War in the French capital, rubbing shoulders with
cultural luminaries including Cocteau, Celine, Montherlant, Braque, and
Picasso, before he was ordered home in disgrace after the failure of
the Stauffenberg plot. The end of the war found him in the British zone
of occupied Germany. The military authorities, mindful of his reputation
as a gravedigger of Weimar democracy, forbade him to circulate his
manuscripts privately.
But for all the attacks of the Left who branded him a "proto-fscist",
Junger has always had his supporters in radical circles.
...
His rehabilitation as the Grand Old Man of German literature was cememted
in 1983 by the award of his country's most important literary honour,
the Goethe prize.
...
Junger has always escaped catogerisation. The visitor to Wilflingen today
is greeted by a trim figure with a thatch of snow-white hair and the
ramrod back of his military youth. He favours English-style check jackets
and turtlenecks....He occasionally smokes English Dunhills and drinks
wine and coffee with enthusiasm. He came close to death for the umpteenth
time last year when bitten by a paralysing tick on an insect-hunting
expedition. He goes through the routine of interviews courteously,
speaking in clipped but clear High German...
Junger professes that he has lived too close to death for it to bother
him now, adding: "Nor do I fear the end of the world. When I die, the
world will end for me, anyway." It is the coldness of such sentiments
that make it difficult to warm to him. One can respect him, certainly,
admire him, perhaps, but liking him is hard. On the other hand,
Junger has never asked to be liked. He has viewed his century through
ice-blue eyes.
"We stand before a time of the Titans," he told Kohl and Mitterand in
1993. "Technology is moving out of control. It's going to be rather
uncomfortable."
                          * - *

abridged from the Daily Telegraph Saturday March 25th 1995 to mark
Junger's 100th birthday the following wednesday.

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:37:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (was: Re: Bataan death march

Hello, Chris!

I agree with your assessment of that movie. It is pure entertainment
to me with very little attention, almost license, to do with history
the way the directors and producers wished.

To view the Germans marching back to Germany in almost parade ground
order after a major catastrophe is not only ridiculous but
preposterous.

Thanks for the post.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:36:56 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Thanks to all who corrected my blunder with the Van Johnson, Battle
of the Bulge movie title.  I would like to add another to the list for
the Japanese side this time.  I rented a video called Zero several years
ago which was a fictionalized account of the development and use
of the Zero in the war.  The special effects were horrible but it was
an interesting insight into the way the Japanese are presented the war
in their own cinema.
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:37:27 -0500
From:    James Vaughan <JGVaughan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

How about a couple of Britain's best {IMHO), "Sink the Bismarck" and "The man
who never was"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:45:05 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

>
>
>        As an aside to the earlier discussion on sight variations on Lee
>Enfields, it is of note that some of the sights on the older Russian
>M-N rifles are graduated in an old Czarist unit of measure (can't remember
>the formal name off the top of my head, however) that differs from both
>yards and metres (I believe it is smaller than either).  This sometimes
>leads to confusion when the rifle won't pattern as expected at the
>corresponding range in yards/metres.
>

The older weapons (pre 1917) were graduated by "arshins" which is equal to
roughly 28 inches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 05:44:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <frank.scheidt@WOLVERINE.COM>
Subject: V-J Day or V-P Day

Reply to Lou Coatney

LC> At the risk of shattering some stereotypes of me, I'd like
LC> to say that -- after 50 years -- changing the name of the day
LC> of the end of the war in the Pacific from V-J (Victory over
LC> Japan) to V-P (Victory in the Pacific) Day sounds like a very
LC> good, constructive idea ... at least on ONE CONDITION.

LC> I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
LC> Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
LC> correspondence, etc.  Surely, the use of VJ Day at the end of
LC> the war and in the 50 years since should be noted in
LC> history books.

It should be used *always* when referring to the end of the war in
the Pacific.

LC> However, the ultimate historical emphasis should be on the fact
LC> that this was as much a victory for the Japanese (*people*),
LC> as it was for their opponents.  I don't mean this in respect
LC> to the postwar Japanese economic resurgence.  I mean this in
LC> regard to their social and political liberalization and
LC> integration with the rest of our world community.

Given that *that's* true enough, it *still* should be V-J Day!

LC> Our enemies should not be -- or have been -- the Japanese people,
LC> but rather the Japanese Militarism (and militarists) which they
LC> followed.  (VJM Day?)  Even for WWII veterans, it is time to
LC> stop seeing the Japanese *people* as enemies.

I have *never* looked upon the Japanese *people* as enemies,
however the Japan of WWII days WAS the enemy and will be always so.
The Japan of 1995 is an entirely different nation.  When we refer
to "V-J" day, we're referring to the Japan of 1945 *not* to the
Japan of 1995, and everyone should realize that.

LC> However, there *IS* one condition I have for this "enlightened"
LC> renaming to "VP Day"

Let's put it this way:  As long as even one, single WWII vet is
alive, let's call it by its rightful name of "V-J Day".  After that
last vet dies call it whatever the hell you want.  "Cherry-Blossom
Day" ... [sigh] ... but *don't* insult the hundreds of thousands of
American boys who suffered and those who died during that struggle
of one-half century ago.   Perhaps the Bataan Death March should be
renamed, "The Bataan Walkathon" ...

LC> Japan's public acknowledgement of the evil of Japanese
LC> Militarism and of *that institution's* ultimate responsibility/
LC> guilt for the grief and destruction of the Asian-Pacific
LC> War -- to include an internationally acceptable coverage of
LC> that in Japanese schools and textbooks.

That requirement, in itself, absolutely wipes out any name-change.
It will *always* be V-J Day!!!

LC> We MUST reach an international resolution and reconciliation
LC> on the history of the Asian-Pacific War.

Why?  There's absolutely NO justification for such historical
revisionism ... BTW, would you write away the Holocaust also?
Would you put it, too, in the "Boys will be boys" category?




... No, I'm not born again.  My Mother got it right the first time
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:59:39 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

>How about a couple of Britain's best {IMHO), "Sink the Bismarck" and "The
>man who never was"

The trouble with 'Sink The Bismarck' is that it was made before many of the
facts were publicly known. E.g. that the Catalina that found the ship after
contact had been lost was crewed by US personnel who were not officially
there. Also, the rather small, but significant, part played by Ultra.

Perhaps we should also include made-for-TV movies and series such as the
British:

A Family at War
A Piece of Cake
and
Danger UXB

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:20:10 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: What If?

Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA> was wondering what if,...
I wanted to respond to the Battle of Britain
>
>1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
>strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian population.
>I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they were
>less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As significant as a
>British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on the
>invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical step.

I'll address the 1st case,...

Key turning point. 'Glad you put this 1st. Hitler crafted Operation Sealion,
which called for the elimination of the RAF prior to a cross-channel
invasion. The op-order was initiated 16July40. Whoa! 1940. It seemed
a sure thing. The primary objective was capture of the south east 100 mile
section of the British coast from Rochester to Portsmouth and 25-30 miles
deep. Army Group A would come across from Calais, Group B from Cherbourg
to Lyme Bay, east of Plymouth, for gaining the second objective which was
an east-west line north of London by about 10 miles. Rundstedt commanded
Group A, Reichenau Group B. Hitler wanted a mid-August time frame. The
German Navy had logistics problems with that and wanted to put it off
'till late-September at the earliest. Admiral Raeder emphasised that
air superiority was essential, thus the obliteration of the RAF became
the task at hand. Goering accepted the task with all confidence. As
Liddell Hart puts it, "... and so the struggle in the air became the
principle feature - indeed, the only feature - of the decisive Battle
of Britain."

Had this battle gone to Germany, the American Army would have had a
very tough time opening a second front. Italy would have red rivers,
much moreso than the blood that ran quite heavy anyway. IMHO...

'More later,... Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:14:34 -0500
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU> said:
...
> I also liked The Big Red One.  Although the highlight was Lee Marvin's
> acting? or just being himself.  Lee is buried at Arlington National
> Cemeterynot very far from Joe Louis.

Speaking of just being himself, I've always thought it ironic that Lee
Marvin, a Marine in WW-II, played army ("Attack!", "The Dirty Dozen",
"The Big Red One") and navy ("You're in the Navy Now", "The Caine Mutiny",
"Donovan's Reef", "Hell in the Pacific") roles, but never got to play a
leatherneck on the screen.

Apropos both the movie thread and the current discussion of VJ or not-VJ,
may I recommend "Hell in the Pacific"?  While the ending is a cop-out,
the bulk of the film is quintisentially gritty acting by Marvin and
Toshiro Mifune, and can be viewed as a parable for the way wartime
antagonism gave way to necessary interdependance.
--
Peter Smith -- psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com
Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:19:13 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Okinawa Commemoration

... and I thought I'd have no need for cable... damn! 'Will try to catch
it, Ben,... Good for you! (Give the list a mention, will ya?)

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:27:00 CST
From:    Larry Goldberg <lmgold@MCS.COM>
Subject: WW2 movies

My vote would have to be for "Das Boot", "The Enemy Below" and "Cross of
Iron", but for sheer entertainment, I'd have to add "Sahara", "The Immortal
Sergeant",  (I think that was the name ... Thomas Mitchell was in it),the
Navarone flicks and anything with Errol Flynn or John Wayne in it. <g>

Best,
Larry

P.S.  Also thought "Is Paris Burning?" was a pretty fair film.

            *  My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.  *

    Unfortunately (for you), these views represent those of my employer.
                Fortunately (for me), I am self employed.

       Larry Goldberg / lmgold@mcs.com / 74407.322@CompuServe.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:32:39 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

My favorate is "Kelly's Heros", not for authenticity but for style.

I could see buying a Tiger, even a replica.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:49:29 -0500
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

I recently saw Judgement At Nuremburg, and thought it was outstanding.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:42:29 +0200
From:    Robert Martensson <Robert.Martensson@NEXUS.SE>
Subject: Re: What If? -Reply

>>>> D1.OUT."umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA" - 3/30/95 11:59 PM >>>
>> I have often wondered about the possible outcome of the different
>> situations in WWII had the Axis especially done things differently.
> To
>
>> 1.  Had Hitler not diverted the bombing campaign of Britain from
>> strategic targets to a terror campaign against the civilian population.
>> I have read several times that Churchill himself had felt that they were
>> less than a week away from defeat when this occured.  As significant
>> as a British defeat in the air would have been we can also tack on
>> the invasion of Britain which I think would have been the next logical
>> step.
>
>Remember Dunkirk. If Germany had destroyed british forces there, it
>would have had a far greater effect from the military and public
>opinion  points of view. The defeat of the forces in France was, to
>some
>extent, nutralized by the fact that many of the troops managed to
>escape to fight again. The combined effect of a Dunkirk defeat
>with destruction of the troops,  continued strategic bombing, and
>a successful invasion of Britain would have changed the war
>dramatically. Without bases in Britain to launch air attacks into
>Germany and France, the war would have lasted longer, and
>invasion of Europe from the west would have been difficult or
>impossible without first retaking the British islands.
>
 [snip]
>
>Allen Witt
>WITTA@ORAU.GOV

My pennys worth of thought (as Sweden is closer to Britain than to USA)
is that the major shortcoming of the Germans in 1940 was the lack of
planning and preparations for how to handle Britain after an eventual
fall of France. All sources I have read seems to agree on that the
reason was that they didn't think Britain would continue the war
alone. Another reason could be that they never came that far in their
planning. That it was regarded as a rather long shot to plan for an
invasion of Britain with so many other potential enimies around (remember
that they hadn't planned to start a world war in 1939 and thus might have
been a bit behind in the planning for such a war).

The aim for such planning would be to
a) put up some strategic goals, like:
   - destroy as much as possible of the Brittish expiditionary force.
     (that would mean that they would have put pressure on the
     Dunkirk pocket, making the withdrawal over the channel much more
     difficult, and thus depriving the Brittish the best part of their
     army and possibly lowering the morale of what is left. The price
     would be losses among the panzer divisions attacking the pocket)
b) make logistic preparations:
   - gather engineering resources to be able to quickly build
     neccesary airfields along the channel
   - gather long range artillery and mines to seal off the channel
   - make the fleet prepare themselves for the task
c) make tactical planning
d) start training of special troops
e) gather intelligence

Had such planning been done already from the start of the war I think
the chances for a successful operation SeaLion would have increased
drasticly. There were however a couple of things it wouldn't have changed,
namely the sorrow state of the german navy after the invasion of Norway
and the lack of a good long range escort fighter (or even medium range -
anything better than the Messerschmit). The latter would have
made life really miserable for the Brittish airforce during the battle
of Britain.

        Yours
        Robert Maartensson
        robert@nexus.se

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:55:30 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  31-Mar-1995 09:43am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: WWII Movies


         It's a bit obscure and I have yet to see it (just got a copy in
    PAL and haven't had the time to go downstairs yet to look at it), but
    "Theirs Is the Glory" is my addition to the list of WWII films.
         From the promo in the back:  "This film is a tribute to every man
    who fought at Arnhem and an everlasting memorial to those who gave
    their lives.
         "Thus the producers describe a unique film which sets out to
    record the events of September 1944 when the 1st Airborme Division
    landed at Arnhem to capture and hold the bridge across the Neder Rhine
    in the face of a superior enemy force equipped with heavy armour,
    suffering in the process grievous losses.
         "One year later survivors returned to the actual battlefield amid
    the ruins of the town to re-enact an action in which they had gained
    the admiration even of the enemy.  'Theirs is the Glory' was produced
    entirely without the use of studio sets or actors and every incident
    was either experienced or witnessed by those who appear in the film.
    Original footage shot at the time is interwoven to produce a remarkable
    piece of cinema history."

         Maybe I'll get a look at it this weekend and report my impressions
    next week.

    Doug McCabe
    defacto curator of the Cornelius Ryan Collection
    mccabe@ouvax.cats.ohiou.edu

    p.s. Thanks on behalf of Ryan for the endorcements of The Longest Day
    and A Bridge Too Far.  Read the books, though: they're much better.
    TLD was re-released last June and ABTF and The Last Battle will be
    re-released this spring.



Received:  31-Mar-1995 09:55am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:53:22 -0500
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Okinawa Commemoration

Ben's note prompts this question:
Why is the first day of the invasion of Okinawa called L-Day rather
than D-Day?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
What's he want a yacht for?  There ain't no money in yachts...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:17:19 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  31-Mar-1995 09:55am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Medals and Awards


         These items and other memorabilia do need to be preserved and,
    while museums may be the best environments (public access) and
    collectors a little less so (no gurantee of public access), I suggest
    local historical societies as another preservation point for these
    items.  These societies tend to treasure such items because they
    generally appreciate the meaning of the history behind they as it
    related to the local area.
         Right now our local historical society (probably like hundreds of
    others throughout the US) has mounted a major exhibit on WWII full of
    artifacts donated or loaned by people in the area.  The exhibit had
    garnered a lot of local press and may be the most visited show put on
    by the Society.  Yes, it is true that these items owned by the Society
    will soon go back into storage not to come out again until the next
    major anniversary.  Yes, it is also true these artifacts will not be
    stored in the most ideal environment for preservation since the Society
    is poor.  But, it is most importantly true that the Society will
    treasure the memorabilia and be happy to drag it out upon request or if
    a patron shows an interest in the period.
         So, don't forget those repositories right in your won back yard
    when it come to saving for the future other peoples' "trash."

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  31-Mar-1995 10:17am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:13:43 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY

Ben- it is about time that someone thought that as well. I was beginning
to think that onlymy brother and I were of that thinking.  Way to go.
We beat Japan, why change it because we trade with them now.
Chris O'Connor(KVCK@MARISTB.MARISTB.EDU)

>Regardless of the rigorous and wiggle rationales for changing the name of V-J
>day to something else, it will always remain V-J Day, Victory over Japan Day,
>because that is exactly what it was, and I don't much give a rat's ass who
>takes exception to that. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:15:17 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

>Lou Coatney wrote:
>
>>I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
>  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
>  correspondence, etc.
>
>It's my personal opinion that the fact that this came from the Clinton
>administration is a major contributor to the uproar -- I have to wonder
>whether this might've gone over better if it had been proposed by George
>Bush, veteran and president. It's pretty darned offensive coming from Slick
>Willie, if you ask me.

First, nobody did.

Second, "Slick Willie," as you call the president, didn't issue any such directive. Did you not
read Jim Adams' post last week? He took great pains to spell out that the administration is
leaving the entire production in the hands of organizers, who are either A) U.S. military active or
retired, or B) historical/honorary outfits. According to Jim, the administration has said only it will
take part and is leaving all production and organization -- including official titles for the event -- in
the hands of organizers.

You may not like Clinton, which is fine with me; I do -- all that's a matter of opinion. If you're into
that, there are other lists in which political flaming is encouraged. Here, though, you have to
have respect for facts. Asserting a sloppy falsehood on someone -- and then expounding cheap
character assassination based on it -- is really bad form.

-- Jim Brady

PS (If military service is really the issue with you, consider the context of Viet Nam. VN was not
WWII. Lots of people, from the top on down, were looking for direction on that one. You have to
respect those who were at least *trying* to stand for something. Rush and Newt didn't exactly
enlist, you know.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:50:00 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

>
>LC> At the risk of shattering some stereotypes of me, I'd like
>LC> to say that -- after 50 years -- changing the name of the day
>LC> of the end of the war in the Pacific from V-J (Victory over
>LC> Japan) to V-P (Victory in the Pacific) Day sounds like a very
>LC> good, constructive idea ... at least on ONE CONDITION.
>
>LC> I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
>LC> Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
>LC> correspondence, etc.  Surely, the use of VJ Day at the end of
>LC> the war and in the 50 years since should be noted in
>LC> history books.
>
>It should be used *always* when referring to the end of the war in
>the Pacific.
>
>

My vote goes to V-J Day. It's history! That's what it was at that moment, in headlines and in film,
and trying to find another title is like trying to rename a battle that took place.

I understand sensibilities change, and it's perfectly fine to accommodate current states of
relations when memorializing the past (old soldiers do this whenever they choose to shake
hands with their former enemies). However, victor or loser, near past or distant memory, to
change the names of things out of their time is as absurd as remodelling Gettysburg.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:31:25 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

I'm not a vet... I've never even been in the military, so I know I can't
truly understand the entire implications of any decision or truly feel the
emotions and first hand memories.

However, the discussion and/or debate over VJ Day boils down, in my personal
opinion, to semantics and verbiage.

It's been said a million times, but words can't hurt -- unless you let them
hurt.  The idea of the term VJ Day upsetting someone is probably real enough.
But it can't hurt someone.  The only time it can hurt is if it's used to
foster and brew a planned distrust or segregation from a people.

I certainly know people who have various bigotries -- against the Japanese,
Republicans, Democrats, Blacks, Whites, Smurfs, certain types of dogs, all
cats... whatever.  But most of these people don't try to spread their
personal insensitivities or unreasonable-ness.

If we look for reasons to change names, reasons can always be found.  VE Day,
of course, is technically incorrect also.  We didn't fight Europe.  We fought
the Axis powers in Europe.  Not all of Europe was our enemy.  So "Victory IN
Europe", though reasonably well named, could still be argued to be offensive
to someone.

VJ Day should remain, simply because that was the term it was given 50 years
ago.  I realize that there are many Japanese who are bothered by it... But
then again, there are 4.5 million names on a petition in Japan demanding that
the Japanese Parliament does NOT issue an apology for the agression against
their neighbors during WWII.  Trying (and failing) to not stereotype, while
there are VE Day commemorations in _Berlin_, it appears that many of the
Japanese people have not yet come to terms with WWII or the end of it.

Should we be sensitive?  I have no problems with sensitivity.  No one wants to
encourage old racial separations or suggest any desire for conflicts.  Again,
it just comes back to being reasonable with what you do.  Present the facts,
present it the way it was, and preserve the history of the time.

The debate over whether VJ Day is an appropriate term is once again debated
on 1995 norms, which is by its very nature dangerous.  Human language evolves
fairly quickly and acceptable norms change extremely rapidly.  Even those of
us too young to have any chance of "visiting" Vietnam can remember the days
when you couldn't say "ass" on the air and television couples had to sleep in
separate beds.  In 10 years, what we consider shocking today may be common-
place and what was acceptable in the past may be shocking.  Moral beliefs and
other beliefs tend to wander around a center line as well.

VJ Day is a historical term.  In 1945, there was no qualms about it and there
shouldn't be today.  Even if our beliefs and realities have changed and evolved
over those 50 years, the terms in use at the time should remain.  If they now
require footnotes or explanations, then give them.  But 90% of the arguments
for renaming something that is "difficult" today is usually to avoid having to
explain it -- that's a cop out.

Leave history alone -- even if it causes us problems today.  Because maybe, it
just won't cause a problem tomorrow.  Leave history in the time it was created.
Only in that way can it be preserved -- even the parts that make people
uncomfortable.  That's usually the parts that make you think... Once you ask
the question "Why?" then the floodgates of knowledge open.

"Victory in the Pacific" is a valid term.  But "VJ Day" was what the day was
given and what it should remain.


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:49:29 -0600
From:    Todd Hively <Todd_Hively@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: BB North Carolina

   Subject:       BB North Carolina

Greetings to this list,

My grandfather(John Hively) served on the BB North Carolina when she was
torpedoed during the Guadalcanal campaign in '42.  I would like to know if
anyone on this list knows of any sources that give an account of this event.
I know that a single Japanese sub fired the spread of torpedoes that struck
the NC, as well as an aircraft carrier(Wasp?), and a destroyer(?).  I would
also be interested to know if there are any veterans(or relatives of veterans)
on the list who served on the North Carolina during this campaign.

thanks for any assistance,
Todd Hively
hivelyt@baylor.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:02:55 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: WW2 movies

His last WAR movie, maybe, but Peckinpah's final film was THE OSTERMAN
WEEKEND (from the Ludlum novel; Burt Lancaster, Craig T Nelson, others)
some final editing of which came after his death.

Me, I've no trouble with T-34/85s in CROSS OF IRON -- ANYTHING just to
have seen those babies in action -- but I can't decide whether seeing
Steiner toss an AT mine onto the tracks of one or watching good old
Private Dietz bouncing Mauser 98 slugs off of the turret of another as a
favorite scene.

'Course, shooting Panzerfausts at the M5s in THE BRIDGE comes close...

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Mike Yaklich wrote:

>         I second the nominations for "Das Boot" and "Cross of Iron"  (the
> latter was Peckinpah's last movie, I believe, and tried to be the "All Quiet On

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:29:27 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <crivera@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

How about the Bogart movie-"Sahara"
CRivera

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:30:09 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

> to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
> actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.
>
Diden't we have a discussion a while back on the number of hollywood
types who actually fought across Europe and the Pacific?-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:07:55 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139) - and Wickes class....

First of all, I find very interesting the USS Ward thread, but I've found
some "obscure" details:

Frederick J. Milford wrote:

> Ward, DD-139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
> big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
> or "four pipers".

Douglas S. Bohannon wrote:

> According to Janes Fighting Ships of WWII, the USS Ward DD-139 was a Flush
> Deck Type, 5th Group. It was one of 7 ships. Laid down on 15/5/18, Launched
> 1/6/18, Completed 24/7/18. It displaced 1060 tons.

According to Frederick, Ward (DD-139) was part of the Wickes class,
composed by 111 ships (DD-75 - DD-185). (Can I assume that Wickes is
DD-75??).

According to Douglas, Ward and her sister ships were only 7(!)
(But he's talking about a 5th Group).

Please, could anyone of you clarify this? Douglas, when you talk
about 7 ships, are you talking about the entire class, or about
the specific batch in which USS Ward was built?

Another question:

Paul Silverstone wrote:

> Lots of the others were converted to minelayers
> (DM), minesweepers (DMS), seaplane tenders (AVD) and transports (APD).

In these designators, does the "D" refer to "Destroyer"? I mean, to
indicate that this ship (minesweeper, etc) is a modified destroyer?

Jorge Merino

PS. Paul, I would like to get your book(s). If you know where I can
find it(them), please let me know.
PS2. Could anyone send me the address of the US Naval Institute?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:48:13 -0500
From:    Micheal Wayne Whitaker <MWHITAKE@UTKVX.UTK.EDU>
Subject: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

I was wondering if anyone could help with suggested materials for a paper
I'm working on now.  It's about the Polish forces which managed to escape
to Britain during the war and fight again for the Allies.  I'm trying to
gather enough materials to concentrate entirely on the Poles who joined the
RAF.  I'm also going to Europe in June, and would be interested in museums
or records storage facilities anyone could suggest that I may visit to do
research.  Unfortunately, I don't know Polish so any works will have to be
in English.


Thanks in advance,
Micheal Whitaker
MWHITAKE@UTKVX.UTK.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:49:31 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Entry #50389 of LISTS.VWAR-L

Staright from the VeeWee's, as they call themselves. -Al
--------------------- Entry #50389 of LISTS.VWAR-L ---------------------
Re: Accidental shooting

Date:         Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:59:00 EST
Reply-To:     Viet Nam War Discussion List <VWAR-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         warren murray <MURRAYWK%SNYPOTVX.BITNET@BROWNVM.brown.edu>
To:           Multiple recipients of list VWAR-L <VWAR-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

        jeeeeezuuuussss christ, what a blast from the past
    lou lou is still spreading his bullshit. gotta love it.
    mtk

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:10:31 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AUTO-GRAPHICS.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

I finally saw for the first time recently THE BEST DAYS OF THEIR LIVES.
This is a late 1940's film about 3 WWII vets coming home.  I found the
acting great and the story very moving.  If you've passed this one up
because it's not a 'battle' story, check it out.

Jim Benn.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:10:18 -0500
From:    "Paul C. Perkins, M.D." <PERK1518@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Warbirds In Liechtenstein

Why apologize? No less valid an inquiry than most I've seen thus far!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:22:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Artifacts/Movies

       Doug McCabe: Great post! Our Historical Society has been trying to do
       an oral history on WW2, and, yes, we appreciate, and cherish, anything
       we can get. And yes, we're poor, too! Couple that with general apathy,
       the same core few doing most of the work, well, I'm sure you know the
       rest. Hey, somebody has to do it!

       Movies: Yes, "A Bridge Too Far", just for that opening artillery
       barrage alone, the sounds of the guns being loaded, fired ((Clack BOOM
       ping)

       My personal favorites made during the war are (in no particular
       order): "They Were Expendable" (We couldn't have won the war without
       John Wayne!), "Destination: Tokyo" ("We're fighting for more roller
       skates for children, including the next generation of Japanese
       children"), "Action in the North Atlantic" ("It's a miracle! That's
       not a miracle, it's American seamanship!), and "In Which We Serve".

       To our Canadian members, a). Is "Stalingrad" available for purchase?
       b). I saw a promo a couple of years back on a CBC production called
       "Dieppe", is it available on tape? Was it any good? I'll be making a
       trip to PEI this summer & would like to know. Thanks in advance, eh. I
       can say that. I was born in Moncton.

       Colin Brace            WA1KWA

       bracec@a1.mgh.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:54:00 PST
From:    Julie Jenkins <ECZ5JXJ@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: WWII flicks

Just to cast the net a little farther, you could run through the list of com-
battants and fill in the blanks:

Kanal--Poland--losing the Warsaw Uprising
Fires on the Plain--REALLY, REALLY famous & good--Japan--losing Leyte
OPEN CITY--as good a movie as was ever made--Italy--when the Germans are nomi-
          nally in charge of Rome and the Romans are waiting for the Amis
Night of the Shooting Stars--Italy--waiting for the Amis and starting the post-
                             war civil war
Paisa/Paisan--Italy--for the famous battle of Florence section and the civil
              war in the Po region section
Empire of the Sun--US--if for no other reason, the film is so maddening, it
                   makes you go read the great book
Distant Thunder--India--what happens in Burma when profiteers manipulate rice
                 stocks in '43 because of the war
Closely Watched Trains--Czech--very famous, trying to DO something under the
                        occupation

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:04:22 -0400
From:    Sam Lashlee <SaLashlee@VAXSAR.VASSAR.EDU>
Subject: Best World War II movies

I wonder why nobody mentioned Casablanca...the story of French refugees.

What irony in the end when the soldier tossed away the Vichy water.

Sam

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:30:00 PST
From:    Julie Jenkins <ECZ5JXJ@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Das Boot

To me this is a very interesting line of posting.  To quote Alexander Portnoy,
"Whyohwhyohwhy"?  If there is a concrete definition of insidious then Das Boot
is it.  Those great Uboat heros; that great matinee idol Jurgen Prochnow, who
never made a decent movie over here; all that downer feeling over the deaths of
those noble men, doing their honorable, clean, level best to . . . knock out
Humphrey Bogart in Action in the North Atlantic! or keep the fatherland sup-
plied to keep the war machine turning over.  I know, I know, we're supposed to
sympathize with them on a human level; they didn't ask to be there etc.  But
after you've walked out of the theater completely used up, you start to
think about what you've just seen.  And you go to the library and look at the
book and realize that it was published in the 60s by a Uboat man who survived
and think about the statistic that ended the movie & wonder, how DID he sur-
vive?  And wonder, why write the book? to celebrate the Uboat guys of course,
But fighting for the fatherland cannot be separated from what the fatherland
was fighting for at the time.  Like RE Lee fighting for Virginia, but Mass
Robert, what did Virginia represent at that particular moment?  If one fights
cleanly for an unclean thing, is this something worth celebrating?

I don't think Germany has produced a single film that addresses what WII was
about from the German point of view.  The hard German films are about the 30s--
how we seem to have gotten into some kind of mess--or are all Fassbinder epics
about how corrupt we are because of that mess & because we sold our soul to the
US.  Europa Europa is Polish, the Poles know who is responsible.  But Germans
make movies from books about the 60s or movies about how alienated the children
of the 40s generation are.  When Germany makes a movie about 1939-1945, it's
Das Boot.  And no other country is like that.  Das Boot is a very gripping
movie, mostly because it's got a real movie star as a lead, but it leaves a
funny taste in one's mouth to think that that's all there is.  So there, my
zwei pfenning's worth.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:36:05 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

Mske sure when writing the paper you call them "Poles in Exile" rather
than "Free Poles".  If you talk to vets they tend to get rather specific
on that point.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:14:35 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: More from VWar-L, Accidental shooting

More from the VeeWee's,... Steve Gomes says it's true. He's my neighbor
around here somewhere. I'll attempt to verify sources. -Alan

--------------------- Entry #50393 of LISTS.VWAR-L ---------------------
Date:         Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:35:38 EST
Reply-To:     Viet Nam War Discussion List <VWAR-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Scarecrow <SGOM6350@URIACC.URI.EDU>
To:           Multiple recipients of list VWAR-L <VWAR-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

>Date:         Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:09:47 EST
>From:         Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>

>Can anyone verify a story of an accidental shooting, ie. Marine cleaning
>his weapon has accidental discharge, killing unit member by "blowing his
>arms off." Lou says the Marine is then summarily executed by other members
>of the unit."

This story is, I'm sorry to say, true. A'course the "weapon" the soldier was
cleaning was an M-60 tank.  Sources report hearing a tinny 'hey, what's
*this* do?' from inside the vehicle just moments before the accidental
discharge. The Marine in question was later found dead after having been
bludgeoned with a large object that authorities suspect was his own stupidity.

Scarecrow [#92]

ps. Pass that on to "The Masked Man" for me, will you Al?

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:26:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chechniya in World War II

Hello, Jim!

I don't think so. They received much help from the Terek Don
Cossacks, who left with them when the Germans pulled out.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:32:53 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

>> to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
>> actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.
>>
>Diden't we have a discussion a while back on the number of hollywood
>types who actually fought across Europe and the Pacific?-Drew


Yes we did - but as some might say that history repeats itself, the
celebrities/movies of WWII subject routinely resurrects itself.  On a
College Hockey discussion list that I used to be a member of, you wouldn't
believe how many times the "which college pep band is the best" or "which
rink is the loudest" topic flared up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:26:58 EST
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

>-- Jim Brady
>PS (If military service is really the issue with you, consider the context of
Vi
>et Nam. VN was not
>WWII. Lots of people, from the top on down, were looking for direction on that
>one. You have to
>respect those who were at least *trying* to stand for something. Rush and Newt
>didn't exactly
>enlist, you know.)

Actually I did :), but I know who you are talking about

Rob Rush
rushr@meade-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:51:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Hello, Jodi!

That would depend on the museum. But a military museum wouldn't
hesitate to accept such a uniform or anything else dealing with
militaria, and that is the sort of museum I would seek out, if I were
to hand over any military items for preservation.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:25:19 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Swastikas over Elbrus?

Hello, Brad and Roger!

It may be of interest to note that the man who placed that flag on
Mt. Elbrus was Heinz Groth, a mountain troop officer, who is still
alive.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:57:09 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: THOUGHTS: Germany and guilt

Hello, Jodi!

Accusing some one of waging an agressive war is a term used to label
an agressor who initiates the conflict, as opposed to the entity who
is the object of the agressor's intention.


Hope this helps.


Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:03:13 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

Hello, Jodi!

For one thing that dock located at St. Nazaire was the only one of
its kind in Western Europe that was large enough to accommodate the
Tirpitz for any repair or refurbishing work. The British, for obvious
reasons, were most fearful that that ship would get out into the open
seas to threaten convoys, which were vital to their existence.
Thus, any notion that the Germans may have had of transferring that
ship to the area under any foreseeable circumstance, was doomed when
that dry dock was destroyed. They were thus forced to keep that ship
bottled up at Tromso Fjord near Stavanger, Norway, which is where the
British wanted it kept.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:09:20 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Henry Sirotin wrote:

>And to expand the question a bit, what are the choices for favorite
_fictional_ character of the war, movies or books.

Movies:

Every character in *Kelly's Heroes* (what a wonderful ensemble cast that
was), but especially Oddball, played by Donald Sutherland. And every
character in every war movie ever played by Robert Mitchum, especially as the
skipper in *The Enemy Below*. I also confess to a fondness for the Humphrey
Bogart character in *Action in the North Atlantic*, and who could resist as
Bogey as Rick in *Casablanca*?

Books:

Pug Henry from *The Winds of War* and *War and Remembrance*, and Cmdr. Edward
Richardson from *Run Silent, Run Deep*. I didn't care much for the movie
version of *RSRD*, but I've always loved the novel.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:09:23 -0500
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: VJ Day or VP Day

OK, OK, message received. I'm sorry I brought up the current president, and
it won't happen again--especially since everybody seems to have gone straight
to flame-on before reading the rest of the post, thus defeating my actual
intended purpose.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:26:21 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: books and movies we enjoy-

I always liked the book "Clear the Decks"-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:19:00 -0500
From:    Laurie Peloquin <lpeloqui@MC6ADM.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

>         Yes, STALINGRAD is available on video. 'Saw it a few weeks ago.
> However, to my mind, the movie falls off about half-way.
>         First part is first-class, showing conditions of German army
> ar Stalingrad. From then on, though, the movie shifts away from the
> battle, and goes all "alegorical", self-conscious 'symbolism', as it
> follows six stubble-hoppers into the snow. Maybe this shift was simply
> for reasons of budget. After all, it costs a bundle to film an entire
> army of extras.

I have to agree.  The word from the critics (the ones who managed to see
it) was that Stalingrad was something special.  I found it to be full of
war movie stereotypes, the nasty commander, the young recruit, the
inexperienced officer, etc.  The time is over where special effects and
stereotypes can be passed off as a cut above the norm.  That being said,
I did find it entertaining anyway.

Laurie Peloquin
Wilfred Laurier University
lpeloqui@mc6adm.uwaterloo.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:49:25 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Russian Booty on Display

>From the DoD Newswire 31 March 1995

:RUSSIA DISPLAYS WWII TROPHIES

   ST. PETERSBURG, Russia -- There was a pair of lovers by
Renoir, sitting in a brilliant garden; Cezanne's androgynous
skinny-dippers relaxing at the water's edge; and Degas' distracted
aristocrat, crossing the Place de la Concorde with his daughters and
dog.
   The treasures were part of a show of "trophy art" unveiled
Wednesday at the Hermitage -- 74 Impressionist and postimpressionist
paintings taken from Germany after World War II and buried in the
museum's back rooms ever since.
   The exhibition opens to the public Thursday, but it has already
given rise to a tangle of legal, moral, economic and aesthetic
controversies.
   The works had belonged mainly to German collectors whose heirs --
some of whom attended a special viewing Wednesday -- want them back.
Germany maintains that works from private and museum collections
should be returned.
   But many Russians believe these paintings and other war trophies
should stay in Russia, which suffered tremendous damage and loss of
life when Nazi Germany invaded in 1941.
   The exhibition -- the first of a series of planned trophy art
shows -- runs through October. Nobody knows what will happen to the
works after that, although museum officials say they expect a deal
can be reached under which some of the works could be returned.
   But the disputes took a back seat Wednesday to the paintings
themselves. The works appeared to be in good condition, their colors
vibrant in the sparkling white hall.
   "How wonderful to see it again," 66-year-old Peter Siemens said on
entering an exhibition hall and seeing the first picture, Delacroix's
still life, "Flowers," which he says used to hang in his mother's
room.
   To his chagrin, however, the painting is not among those the
Hermitage says belonged to his father, German industrialist and
collector Friedrich Siemens.
   Most of the works come from one German collector, Otto Krebs. His
lone heir, Frieda Krebs Wolff, attended the opening along with her
husband, Willie Wolff, who said they have little hope of reclaiming
the paintings.
   "It's politics," he said.

:RUSSIAN TROPHY ART SHOW OPENS

   ST. PETERSBURG, Russia -- Russians got their first glimpse
Thursday of a 50-year-old secret -- a wealth of Impressionist and
post-Impressionist paintings previously hidden in storerooms at the
Hermitage Museum.
   Soviet troops took the 74 paintings from Nazi Germany and they had
not been seen since the end of World War II. Some were presumed
destroyed until the Hermitage revealed its closely guarded secret
last fall.
   Museum director Mikhail Piotrovsky told 1,000 invited guests at
Thursday's official opening that the exhibition was "one of the great
artistic events of recent years at the Hermitage."
   Piotrovsky's own father kept the paintings' existence a secret
during his 26 years as museum director.
   The paintings by 23 major artists such as Cezanne, Degas, Monet,
Renoir and Van Gogh appeared to be in good condition.
   They include "Place de la Concorde," Degas' 1875 masterpiece of a
man crossing the Paris square with his daughter and dogs. The
painting was reproduced in art books for decades with the notation
"Missing: believed destroyed."
   There's also Gauguin's "Two Sisters" from his first trip to Tahiti
in 1892, and "The White at Night," which Van Gogh finished only six
weeks before his suicide in 1890.
   The paintings are just some of the "trophy art" that Russia has
recently admitted to possessing. Russian officials say they have
returned 800,000 works of art to Germany since the war, but insist
that Russia has a moral and legal claim to much of what remains.
   Many Russians say that works seized from Germany should remain in
Russia as compensation for the widespread destruction and brutality
of the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:44:22 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: E-Boats Was Re:PT Boats..

Speaking of the continued use of WWII era E Boats.....

During the early-mid 70s, my Dad was stationed at (I was an Air Force brat)
Langley AFB in Hampton Virginia. The Family Services operation there ran
fishing charters on a refurbrished  E Boat. Many good times were had by all....
Mike

Michael Long
Programmer Analyst II
University of Connecticut
196 Auditorium Road, U-138    |   Bitnet: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
Storrs, Connecticut, USA      | Internet: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    Phone: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:58:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Dutch War Criminal Released

>From the DoD Newswire 30 March 1995

:DUTCH FREE LAST WAR CRIMINAL

   THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- The Dutch released their last
imprisoned Nazi war criminal on Wednesday after he served 28 months
of his original life sentence for betraying Jews and resistance
workers to the Nazis.
   Jacob Luitjens, 75, was convicted in absentia in 1948 by a Dutch
war tribunal. He began serving his sentence in November 1992, when he
was deported from Canada, where he had made a new life as a botany
instructor at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.
   Then-Justice Secretary Aad Kosto recommended the early release
last year, citing Luitjens' age and reductions of sentences for
similar offenders.
   Luitjens was among 15,000 Dutchmen who volunteered to serve in
Nazi auxiliary military organizations and local police groups during
the five-year wartime occupation of the Netherlands.
   His release -- a few weeks before the Dutch celebrate the 50th
anniversary of the country's liberation -- was criticized by Jewish
groups.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:56:15 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

You wrote:

>
>>How about a couple of Britain's best {IMHO), "Sink the Bismarck" and
"The
>>man who never was"
>
>The trouble with 'Sink The Bismarck' is that it was made before many of
the
>facts were publicly known. E.g. that the Catalina that found the ship
after
>contact had been lost was crewed by US personnel who were not
officially
>there. Also, the rather small, but significant, part played by Ultra.
>
>Perhaps we should also include made-for-TV movies and series such as
the
>British:
>
>A Family at War
>A Piece of Cake
>and
>Danger UXB
>
>Cris
>
>Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
>(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)
>
>
Cris, there was a US ensign aboard the Catalina, but it was flown by a
British pilot.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:03:07 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:German Right to Mourn

>From the DoD Newswire 31 March 1995

:KOHL: WE HAVE RIGHT TO MOURN

   BONN, Germany -- Chancellor Helmut Kohl said Thursday this
year's 50th anniversary of the Nazis' surrender should be a time to
mourn Germany's war losses as well as celebrate its liberation from
Adolf Hitler.
   Siding publicly with conservatives in parliament for the first
time, Kohl said the V-E Day ceremony in Berlin on May 8 should not
just be a day of expressing gratitude to the Allies.
   Along with remembering Jews, Gypsies and other Nazi victims, he
said, Germans also should be able to mourn their own war dead --
estimated at 5.25 million.
   "Millions of (German) soldiers lost their lives. Millions were
thrown into prisons," Kohl said. "There is also good reason to
remember the millions who suffered as they fled" the approaching Red
Army or were expelled from former German territories in Poland and
Czechoslovakia.
   Leftist lawmakers called his attitude wrong-headed because it was
Hitler -- and not the victorious Allies -- who was to blame for
Germans' wartime suffering.
   "May 8 must be clearly seen as a day of (German) liberation" and
not a symbol of German losses, said Otto Schilly of the opposition
Social Democrats.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:10:37 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Australian Fake Medalist

>From the DoD Newswire 31 March 1995

:AUSTRALIAN WAR MEDAL CONMAN TO SELL COLLECTION

    MELBOURNE, March 30 - An Australian caught making and
selling fake military medals bearing the names of war heroes has
agreed to auction his own genuine collection to refund people who
bought the fakes, police said on Thursday.
     Bradley Lederman, 27, was given a six-month suspended jail
sentence on Wednesday after admitting in a Melbourne court to 17
charges of forgery and three of obtaining property by deception.
     He was arrested after an eight-month probe in Australia and
Britain into sales of 15 sets of medals, including one inscribed with
the name of an Australian nurse bayoneted to death by Japanese troops
in World War Two, police said.
     Lederman bought blank British medals cheaply and impressed them
with the names of Australian service personnel with outstanding
careers valued at to up to A$5,000 (US$3,650) a set, detective
constable Tom Jambrich told Reuters.
     British medals are not inscribed with names. The fake medals were
of high quality and were even sold to a British auction house, he
said.
     Lederman agreed to surrender his personal collection of medals,
worth an estimated A$23,000 (US$16,800), for auction in July, Jambrich
said.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:28:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

In reply to the mail from <MWHITAKE@UTKVX.UTK.EDU>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was wondering if anyone could help with suggested materials for a paper
>I'm working on now.  It's about the Polish forces which managed to escape
>to Britain during the war and fight again for the Allies.  I'm trying to
>gather enough materials to concentrate entirely on the Poles who joined the
>RAF.  I'm also going to Europe in June, and would be interested in museums
>or records storage facilities anyone could suggest that I may visit to do
>research.  Unfortunately, I don't know Polish so any works will have to be
>in English.
>
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Micheal Whitaker
>MWHITAKE@UTKVX.UTK.EDU
>
Micheal,

Polish pilots flew with the RAF during the Battle of Britain.  They gave
their British leaders quite a time.  I'm not sure of the squadron ID for
the Poles, but I'm sure someone else here has that information.

If you're going to England on that trip, DO go to the RAF Museum in Hendon.
I have visited there and have corresponded with them concerning Air Chief
Marshal Dowding.  Their scholars should be able to help you with your
inquiries.

Good Luck

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:32:54 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: WW2 movies

In reply to the mail from <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't seen my two favorite ones:

            Command Decision
            Fighter Squadron

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:34:24 -0500
From:    Jack Murray <TheMurrays@AOL.COM>
Subject: BULGE MOVIES

The Veterans Of The Battle Of The Bulge selected the film BRAVE RIFLES to
show at their 50th Anniversary Program in St. Louis (12-16-94).

Who's seen it?  What are the reviews?  Where do you find a copy?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 17:13:48 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Apparent misquote (Re: V-J Day or V-P Day)

>
> >Lou Coatney wrote:
> >
> >>I know there has been a big furor in the media about the Clinton
> >  Administration wanting to stop using "VJ Day" in official
> >  correspondence, etc.

Lou Coatney wrote the above but NOT the below, Jim Brady.  Please
  be more careful of your quotes and combining posts.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

> >It's my personal opinion that the fact that this came from the Clinton
> >administration is a major contributor to the uproar -- I have to wonder
> >whether this might've gone over better if it had been proposed by George
> >Bush, veteran and president. It's pretty darned offensive coming from Slick
> >Willie, if you ask me.
>
> First, nobody did.
>
> Second, "Slick Willie," as you call the president, didn't issue any such directive. Did you not
> read Jim Adams' post last week? He took great pains to spell out that the administration is
> leaving the entire production in the hands of organizers, who are either A) U.S. military active or
> retired, or B) historical/honorary outfits. According to Jim, the administration has said only it will
> take part and is leaving all production and organization -- including official titles for the event -- in
> the hands of organizers.
>
> You may not like Clinton, which is fine with me; I do -- all that's a matter of opinion. If you're into
> that, there are other lists in which political flaming is encouraged. Here, though, you have to
> have respect for facts. Asserting a sloppy falsehood on someone -- and then expounding cheap
> character assassination based on it -- is really bad form.
>
> -- Jim Brady
>
> PS (If military service is really the issue with you, consider the context of Viet Nam. VN was not
> WWII. Lots of people, from the top on down, were looking for direction on that one. You have to
> respect those who were at least *trying* to stand for something. Rush and Newt didn't exactly
> enlist, you know.)
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 17:27:35 -0600
From:    Chip Merton <merton@VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: WWII Movies

There is/was a series on PBS called American Cinema which had an episode on
Hollywood's treatment of the genre from after WWI to post-Vietnam. Was VERY
interesting; esp. the discussion by the Vietnam Vets and how they viewed war
prior to arriving in Vietnam due to how war was portrayed in the movies.

Well, now to get back on list....

I saw a film several months ago that was a joint US/Japanese production,
produced by and staring Frank Sanatra. Basicly the story is about a group of
US servicemen who crash land on an island that has been bypassed but still
occupied by an equal number of Japanese. A very interesting side note is
that the special effects (which were rather good for the mid to late 1950's)
were done by the same company that worked on my other favorite type of film...
  The Cheap Japanese Horror Movie  (i.e. Godzilla, Mothra, Gamera, et. al)

Anyway my question... What is the name of this film?
Thanks

--Chip
Chip Merton
IN%"merton@vax1.mankato.msus.edu"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:08:11 -0500
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Lord Lovat  D-Day Commando

>From my British friends - The eath of lord Lovat.

Lord Lovat, legendary commando leader of WWII, died at the age of 83.

Lovat was in command of No. 1 Special Service Brigade, a force containing
five commando groups, which landed at Ouistrham on June 6, 1944. The force
washed, shaved and cleaned their boots aboard ship - and under fire - before
going ashore at Sword Beach. They then fought their way six miles inland to
Pegasus Bridge, which had been recently captured and were being held against
a German counter-attack.

Accompied as usual by his piper, Bill Millin, Lovat marched across the Orne
and took up position to repulse the advancing Panzers. He was subsequently
wounded, and as he was being carried off the field on a stretcher sent a
message to his men: "I can rely on you not to take one step back." Nor did
they.

Lovat's role in the proceedings was featured in the epic film The Longest Day
(1962), in which he was portrayed by Peter Lawford.

Ron Charlton
RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:08:17 -0500
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Wehrmacht Atrocities

>From reporter Robin Gedye in London:

The Wehrmact's complicity in extermination policies has been exposed in an
exhibition that destroys the image of a professional army persuing military
objectives.

War of extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht 1941 to 1944, staged in
Hamburg, uses a wealth of documents and unpublished photographs to prove the
army acted under orders in pursuing mass murder policies in the Balkans and
Russia.

The exhibition, which opened last week in conjunction with a 700 page book on
the Wehrmacht's atrocities breaks a post-war conspiracy of silence over the
conscript's contribution to Hitler's war.

The broad picture of Wehrmacht complicity in the Holocaust is backed by
extracts from soldiers' letters home detailing atrocities, often with anti-Sem
ite glee, and accompanied by snapshots of mass executions taken illegally.

Will post more of Gedye's article if there is interest.

Ron Charlton
RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:58:36 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 31-MAR-1945

On 31-MAR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the 3rd Armoured Division
continues their offensive against Paderborn. In the 3rd Army sector, the XX
Corps is engaged on the line of the rivers Fulda and Eder. The 6th Armoured
Division is advancing towards Kassel; as is the 80th Division also. The
French 1st Army attacks across the Rhine in the area of Speyer and
Germersheim.

Eastern Front - The 1st Ukraine Front captures Ratibor. The 4th Ukraine
Front is advancing slowly on Moravska-Ostrava. The 2nd Ukraine Front
captures Nitra and crosses the Vah, taking Galanta.

Philippines - Fighting is occurring near Salacsac Pass No. 2. The 43rd
Division is advancing in the Santa Maria valley, making contact with the
1st Cavalry Division.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:35:01 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: V-J Day or V-P Day

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but regarding Europe, although
there was the realization that Germany was the chief enemy, the Axis was
made up of other countries, e.g. Italy, Roumania, Hungary, etc.  By
contrast, in the Pacific the Axis was represented by only one country,
Japan, if we exclude the Thai declaration of war on the U.K. (recognized)
and the U.S. (unrecognized), which hardly came to the attention of the
public.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 20:36:15 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT

I have never found a satisfactory answer to your question, Joe. "L" in phonetic
code at that time would have been "Love," but that has nothing to do either
with April Fool's Day or Easter Sunday. Maybe someone on the board has a better
answer. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:45:18 -0600
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Hitler's Nephews

        I was shocked recently to find out that Hitler's half brother
Alois had three sons one of whom served in the American forces (I believe
it was the Navy).  Has anyone heard of this?  How was it that he was seen
as a safe security risk?  The account goes on to say that he now lives in
New York under an assumed name (I think his name was originally William
Peter or William Robert).  The other two sons served on the Eastern front
at Stalingrad.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:00:17 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT

How about "L" for Landing day.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:01:49 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Nephews

Kelvin Brent Luther said:
>
>        I was shocked recently to find out that Hitler's half brother
>Alois had three sons one of whom served in the American forces (I believe
>it was the Navy).  Has anyone heard of this?  How was it that he was seen
>as a safe security risk?  The account goes on to say that he now lives in
>New York under an assumed name (I think his name was originally William
>Peter or William Robert).  The other two sons served on the Eastern front
>at Stalingrad.

I should think they would use an assumed name, since even the mustache
of Hitler has gone WAY out of style. ;-) Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:20:19 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

hansoff writes:
>
>   Do you happen to have any mail lists for rifles and other firearms?  I
> would be very interested in adding those to my mailbox.  Thanx...
>


Don't have any direct info. on any firearms mailing lists per se, but I'll
check some of my references.

If you are able to access the basic Usenet newsgroups, however, you'll find
rec.guns, which provides a wealth of discussion on general firearms
topics, and many of the people there can help you track down the parts
you might require.

Regards,


--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:25:39 EST
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Name that gun, Enfield No4 Mk1

Alan:

Thanks for taking the time to send a word of encouragement.  Glad I could
be of help to the discussion.

Regards,

--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:27:59 -0700
From:    John Brewer <johnb@THELAIR.ZYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: VJ Day or VP Day

On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Jodi Berls wrote:

> OK, OK, message received. I'm sorry I brought up the current president, and
> it won't happen again--especially since everybody seems to have gone straight
> to flame-on before reading the rest of the post, thus defeating my actual
> intended purpose.

        I appreciated both points. No need to apologize to the list, IMHO.
        Especially on this list, strong opinions need not be something to be
        ashamed of.... there is certainly no shortage of them...

        Thanks for the post.
        /john



 John M. Brewer   wb5oau
 johnb@thelair.zynet.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 30 Mar 1995 to 31 Mar 1995
*************************************************

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Date:     Sun, 2 Apr 1995 00:00:54 -0500
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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 31 Mar 1995 to 1 Apr 1995
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Status: O

There are 51 messages totalling 1903 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. V-J DAY OR V-P DAY
  2. Paul H. Silverstone
  3. Raid on Cabanatuan #7
  4. Wehrmacht Atrocities
  5. Getting WWII ship recognition books revised/reprinted
  6. INF: USN Chronology 04-01-95
  7. [INF] USAAF 1 APR 45
  8. INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-APR-1945
  9. [INF] USAAF 2 APR 45
 10. [INF] USAAF 3 APR 45
 11. INF: Search service for discharged service personnel
 12. Re[2]: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY
 13. Great World War II movies.
 14. OKINAWA COMMEMORAT (2)
 15. USS Ward (DD-139) - and Wickes class....
 16. Accidental Shootings (2)
 17. WWII Movies (5)
 18. Movie Stars in WWII
 19. Das Boot (3)
 20. MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge (2)
 21. Apparent misquote (Re: V-J Day or V-P Day)
 22. Weap: Footnote to Enfield Discussion (2)
 23. great WWII Movies (2)
 24. Polish Forces in Battle of Britain (2)
 25. Das Boot?Nasty Girl (3)
 26. Another film/MacArthur's Children (2)
 27. USS JUNEAU
 28. WWII flicks
 29. Great WWII movies (2)
 30. Hitler's Nephews
 31. BB North Carolina
 32. USS Ward (DD-139) - and W...
 33. Medals and Awards
 34. Hmmmm
 35. Subscription

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:37:34 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY

My salute, Ben...
        when you say you don't give a rat's ass if anyone objects to using
the term V-J Day.
                        o o
                         "
                         U
Spoken like a true Marine!
Let me join you most heartily in that, sir.
'Far as I'm concerned those wretched little PC-ers can take one of those
well-known flying copulations so far as trying to tinker with historical
fact.
When that rabble have fought a war of their own, *then* they can change
whatever they choose.

Semper Fi...
        and
Per Ardua Ad Astra.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 01:54:03 -0500
From:    Paul Silverstone <paulh@PHANTOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul H. Silverstone

On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Ed Kettler wrote:

> You wrote:
>
>
> >     Are you *the* Paul H. Silverstone, who authored/compiled
> >U.S. WARSHIPS OF WORLD WAR II, the exhaustive little handbook
> >that is running for upwards of $40 in the out-of-print catalogs,
> >now?
> >
> The US Naval Institute reprinted this book a few years ago, so it may be
> still in print/available.  I wish someone would reprint the rest of the
> series.  I am beginning to think I'm funding Q. M. Dabney's retirement
> fund buying those books <BWG>.
>
> Ed Kettler
> deradler@ix.netcom.com
>
I have tried to persuade the Naval Institute to publish a new and revised
series of the World War II and World War I (New Navy) books in an
expanded format but no go.  The reprint a few years ago of the WWII book
contained an errata and addenda list but there is much new information
and new pictures which could go into an expanded new book.  They don't
think there is any demand for such a book.
Paul Silverstone

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 00:01:21 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #7

INSTALLMENT SEVEN IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
3/31/95

October - November, 1944.
-----------------------------

MacArthur's troops take Leyte Island in the Central Philippines.
The Japanese are now on the defensive. The Imperial Army on
Luzon decides to move most of the remaining POW's from Cabanatuan
and other prisoners are crammed into Japanese freighters. Unaware of
the human cargo in the unmarked ships, U.S. planes and submarines
sink them. Most of those POW's perished. Now there are only a little
over 500 POW's left at Cabanatuan.

Once again Captain Pajota and Major Lapham radio for permission to
rescue the remaining POW's and are again told to "wait."



--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 03:08:22 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities

Also check Omer(?) Bartov's book.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 03:18:32 -0600
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Getting WWII ship recognition books revised/reprinted

So Paul, :-)

     What's the Institute's e-mail address?

     And would the revisions have simple little 1:1200
side views *and* deck plans?

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 04:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-01-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/01 Sun. Marines and Army forces land on Okinawa, Ryukyu Islands,
           under cover of heavy naval gunfire and air attack. The
           operation is under the overall command of Adm. R. A.
           Spruance, Commander Fifth Fleet. Vice Adm. R. K. Turner
           commands the Joint Expeditionary Force, and the troops are
           commanded by Lt. Gen. A. B. Buckner, USA.
           Army forces are landed near Legaspi, southern Luzon, P, I.,
           under cover of naval gunfire and Army aircraft.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa landings:
             Battleship WEST VIRGINIA (BB-48), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 20'N,, 127 d. 40'E.
             Destroyer PRICHETT (DD-561), by dive bomber,
              26 d. 38'N., 127 d. 25'E.
             Destroyer escort VAMMEN (DE-644), by mine,
              26 d. 18'N., 127 d. 29'E.
             Minesweeper SKIRMISH (AM-303), by dive bomber,
              26 d. 33'N., 127 d. 33'E.
             Attack cargo ship ACHERNAR (AKA-53), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 07'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             Attack  cargo ship TYRRELL (AKA-80), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             Attack transport ELMORE (APA-42), by horizontal bomber,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 41'E.
             Attack transport ALPINE (APA-92), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 41'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:05:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 1 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 1 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s attack railroad targets at
Ninh Binh and Minh Koi, French Indochina. In China, 7 B-24s bomb the Ft
Bayard storage area; 6 B-25s and 6 P-51s attack river shipping and warehouses
in the Sienning-Puchi area; 5 B-25s hit warehouses and other buildings at
Hsuchang while 3 damage a bridge at Changtuikuan; single B-25s bomb targets
of opportunity around Sanshihlitun, Sichuan, Loning, and Suicheng; 23 P-51s
pound airfields in the Shanghai area; 70+ other fighter bombers attack river,
road, and rail traffic, storage areas, troops, and general targets of
opportunity throughout wide areas of occupied S and E China; the detachments
of the 11th and 22d Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 341st Bombardment Group
(Medium), operating from Chihkiang with B-25s, return to base at Yangkai;
during Apr 45, the 426th Night Fighter Squadron, Fourteenth AF (attached to
312th Fighter Wing), based at Shwangliu with P-61s, sends detachments to
operate from Liangshan and Ankang.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 10 B-25s attack roads and
bridges behind enemy lines in C Burma; 478 transport flights are made
throughout the day; British 36 Division forces begin to push down the
railroad from Mandalay to Rangoon. Unit moves In India: 12th Combat Cargo
Squadron, 3d Combat Cargo Group, from Moran to Tulihal with C-47s;
detachments of the 24th Combat Mapping Squadron, 8th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, operating from Tulihal and Cox's Bazar with F-7s,
return to base at Guskhara.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 921: 12 B-24s drop
leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves: HQ 64th Fighter Wing
from Nancy, France to Edenkoben, Germany; HQ 320th Bombardment Group
(Medium), from Longvic Airfield, Dijon to Tavaux Airfield, Dole, France.
    Ninth Air Force: No bomber operations due to weather. In Germany,
fighters fly patrols, armed reconnaissance, and support the US 3d and 9th
Armored Divisions in the Paderborn-Lippstadt and Warburg areas, the XX Corps
astride and E of the Fulda River, and the XII Corps which reaches the Werra
River W of Meiningen. The 72d Liaison Squadron, Ninth AF (attached to Sixth
Army Group), moves from Kaiserlautern to Darmstadt, Germany with L-5s. During
Apr 45, the following units move: HQ IX Fighter Command from Bruhl to Weimar,
Germany; HQ 9th Bombardment Division (Medium) from Reims, France to Namur,
Belgium; and HQ 99th Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) from Beaumont, France
to Tirlemont, Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 400 B-24s and B-17s bomb
the Maribor, Yugoslavia railroad bridge, marshalling yards at Sankt Polten,
Selzthal, Zeltweg, Graz, and Villach, Austria, the railroad bridge at
Krieglach, Austria, and gun positions on the Adriatic coast near Venice,
Italy; 82 P-38s bomb the Ybbs, Austria railroad bridge while 52 P-51s strafe
rail traffic in the Prague-Plzen, Czechoslovakia area; other P-38s and P-51s
fly reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 31
Mar/1 Apr, A-20s and A-26s on intruder missions over the Po Valley continue
to attack road and railroad bridges, motor transport, loading points, and
other targets; principal strikes are made at Po River bridges; fighters and
fighter bombers during the day strike rail bridges, dumps, rail lines,
marshalling yards, trains, vehicles, gun positions, several buildings
(including an ammunition plant and truck factory), and a variety of targets
of opportunity in the Po Valley and NE Italy; medium bombers hit railroad
bridges at Calcinato, Crema, Mantua, Monselice, Colle Isarco, San Ambrogio di
Valpolicella, and Perea; HQ 87th Fighter Wing is disbanded at Florence; HQ
321st Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Solenzara, Corsica to
Falconara.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): The detachment of the 28th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, VI Air Service Area Command (attached to VII Fighter
Command), operating from Peleliu Island, Palau Islands with F-5s, joins the
detachment operating from Saipan Island, Mariana Islands.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): During Apr 45, the 25th Bombardment Squadron
(Very Heavy), 40th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), the 676th, 677th and 678th
Bombardment Squadrons (Very Heavy), 444th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), and
the 768th, 769th and 770th Bombardment Squadrons (Very Heavy), 462d
Bombardment Group (Heavy) move from Chakulia, Dudhkundi and Piardoba, India
respectively to West Field, Tinian Island, Mariana Islands with B-29s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s attack Giran
Airfield on Formosa while B-25s and P-47s sweep wide areas. On Luzon Island,
Philippine Islands, B-24s, A-20s, and fighter bombers hit the Legaspi area
(where a US amphibious landing is taking place), targets N of Balete Pass,
the Batangas area, and support troops over parts of S and NW Luzon. In the C
Philippine Islands, B-25s and A-20s support ground forces near Cebu City on
Cebu Island and on Negros Island. B-24s hit Oelin Airfield in Borneo. The
159th Liaison Squadron (Commando), 3d Air Commando Group, based at Mangaldan,
Luzon with UC-64s and L-5s, sends detachments to operate from Negros and Cebu
Islands. Unit moves during Apr 45: HQ Fifth Air Force from Mindoro Island,
Philippine Islands to Clark Field, Luzon; 4th Photographic Charting Squadron,
311th Photographic Wing (Mapping and Charting) [attached to 4th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance)], based at Hollandia, New Guinea with F-7s, sends a
detachment to operate from Zamboanga, Mindanao Island, Philippine Islands,
to map areas of the SW and W Pacific (another detachment is operating in
Australia).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

01/1403Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:14:30 EST
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-APR-1945

On 01-APR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The U.S. 1st and 9th Armies meet at Lippstadt, encircling
the Ruhr industrial region. The pocket is about 70 miles long and 50 miles
wide. In the 9th Army sector, the XIX Corps reaches the Cologne-Berlin
autobahn. The XVI Corps advances in the area south of Haltern. In the 1st
Army sector, the 3rd Division takes Paderborn. In the 7th Army sector, the
XV Corps is encountering difficulties near Aschaffenburg. The XXI Corps
advances towards Wurzburg and Kongishofen. The VI Corps advances along the
Neckar and connects with the French 1st Army. The French 1st Army widens
the bridgehead over the Rhine, cutting the Karlsruhe-Frankfurt highway.

Italian Front - In the British 8th Army sector, the V Corps launches
Operation Roast to free the area of Comacchio.

Eastern Front -  The 3rd Ukraine Front takes Sopron.

Philippines - Elements of the 6th Army land on the Bicol peninsula.

Okinawa - The 10th Army begins landing on the southwest coast of Okinawa
near Hagushi. The 10th Army is composed of the XXIV Corps (7th, 27th, 77th
and 96th Infantry Divisions) and the III Marine Amphibious Corps (1st, 2nd,
5th and 6th Marine Divisions). The Japanese do not oppose the landing and
by evening the beachhead is 9 miles wide and 2-3 miles deep. The XXIV Corps
captures the airfield at Kadena and begins advancing south. The III
Amphibous Corps takes the Yontan airfield.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:15:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 2 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 2 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A B-24 on weather reconnaissance returns early
due to mechanical trouble; another B-24 investigates radar jamming on Kresta
Point in the Aleutian Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 28 B-25s knock
out a bridge SE of That Khe, bomb the town area of Vinh, damage the bridge
approaches at Kep, hit shipping and other targets of opportunity along the
coast of the Gulf of Tonkin, and blast the town area of Luc Nam. In China, 25
B-25s attack trucks, tanks, rivercraft, and targets of opportunity at Sichuan,
Neihsiang, Sinyang, Mingkiang, Siangtan, Kweiping, Nanning, and Hengshan; 4
B-24s bomb the Kowloon Docks in Hong Kong and hit shipping at Bakli and Samah
Bays on Hainan Island; 32 P-51s pound airfields in the Shanghai area; 140+
other fighter bombers attack numerous targets scattered throughout S and E
China, including troops, trucks, horses, river shipping, bridges, gun
positions, airfields, rail traffic, and town areas.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, bad weather cancels all
offensive missions; air supply missions continue with 469 sorties being flown
to forward areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 922:
  1. 447 B-17s, 261 B-24s and 572 P-47s and P-51s are dispatched against 6
airfields in Denmark but are recalled because of bad weather in the target
area; 1 B-17 and 1 P-47 (pilot MIA) are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged beyond
repair.
  2. 26 of 27 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss.
  3. 15 P-51s escort 7 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.
  Mission 923: During the night of 2/3 Apr, 9 of 10 B-24s drop leaflets in
the Netherlands, France and Germany without loss and 10 B-24s fly
CARPETBAGGER missions to Denmark without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves: HQ 358th Fighter
Group from Toul, France to Sandhofen, Germany; HQ 69th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group and 22d and 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons from
Nancy and Azelot, France respectively to Haguenau, France with F-6s; 441st,
442d, 443d and 444th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 320th Bombardment Group
(Medium), from Longvic Airfield, Dijon to Tavaux Airfield, Dole, France with
B-26s.
    Ninth Air Force: Weather prevents operations by the 9th Bombardment
Division and XXIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional). In Germany, the IX and
XIX Tactical Air Commands fly patrols and armed reconnaissance over wide
expanses of Germany claiming 17 airplanes downed and the IX Tactical Air
Command supports the US 9th Armored Division at the Diemel River bridgehead
near Warburg. Unit moves: 12th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) (attached to 67th Tactical Reconnaissance
Group) from Euren to Ober Olm, Germany with F-6s; 30th Photographic
Reconnaissance and 109th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons, 67th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, from Vogelsang to Limburg, Germany with F-5s and F-6s
respectively; 39th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Ninth AF [attached to
9th Tactical Reconnaissance Group (Provisional)] from Jarny, France to
Maastricht, the Netherlands with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 600 B-24s and B-17s,
with fighter escorts, bomb communications targets in Austria including the
marshalling yards at Graz, Sankt Polten, and Krems, and a railroad bridge on
the Sulm River; 38 P-38s dive-bomb a railroad bridge at Wildon; 71 P-38s and
55 P-51s strafe Vienna-Munich, Germany and Wiener-Neustadt-Maribor,
Yugoslavia rail traffic; others carry out photo and weather reconnaissance
and reconnaissance escort flights.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Major General Benjamin W Chidlaw
takes command of the Twelfth AF and will shortly take over command of the
Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF) also.
  In Italy, A-20s and A-26s continue intruder missions during the night of
1/2 Apr concentrating on Po River crossings and other Po Valley
communications targets; B-25s bomb railroad bridges at Fornovo di Taro,
Drauburg, San Michele all' Adige, Matrei am Brenner, Steinach, and Colle
Isarco, and a railroad fill at Vo Sinistro; fighters and fighter bombers
again hit communications in the Po Valley but divert sizeable effort to
attacks on methane plants in the C Po area; the P-47s are attacked by about
40 fighters during the day, 13 are claimed destroyed; HQ 340th Bombardment
Group (Medium) moves from Alesan, Corsica to Rimini.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 12 Guam Island, Mariana Islands-based B-24s
bomb Marcus Island in the N Pacific.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 51: 115 of 121 B-29s bomb the Nakajima aircraft factory at Tokyo;
they claim 1-1-0 Japanese aircraft; 6 B-29s are lost.
  Mission 52: During the night of 1/2 Apr, 6 B-29s mine the harbor at Kure,
Honshu Island, Japan between 0000 and 0400 hours local without loss.
  Mission 53: During the night of 2/3 Apr, 9 of 10 B-29s mine the harbor at
Hiroshima, Japan without loss.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s bomb the
harbor at Hong Kong. On Luzon Island, B-25s and fighter bombers attack the
Bamban bridges, the Balete Pass-Baguio area and Penablanca. Troops at Cebu
City on Cebu Island and on Negros Island are bombed by B-25s and fighter
bombers. B-24s bomb the Sarangani Bay area on Mindanao Island. Other B-24s
hit the Sandakan shipyards and Tawau Airfield, Borneo. Bongao Island,
Philippine Islands, is hit by B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

01/1413Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 3 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 17 B-25s bomb Pinglo, China railroad
yards and in French Indochina, the Ninh Binh railroad yards, knock out a
bridge at Thinh Duc, and damage bridges at Gian Khau and Mon Cay. In China,
60+ fighter bombers knock out bridges at Hsitu and between Chuting and
Hengyang, destroy pontoon bridges in the Kanchou area, hit Yangtong airfield,
pound the Hai Duong, French Indochina railroad yards, and hit river traffic
and other targets of opportunity at several locations including Hongay, and
Cao Bang, French Indochina, and Tayu, Hankow, Kanchou, Yoyang, and the Ishan-
Hwaiyuanchen, areas of China.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, bad weather again causes
cancellation of most scheduled strikes; a few fighter bombers hit a Japanese-
held wooded area near Kenglong; transports complete 383 sorties to forward
areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 23d, 313th and 314th
Troop Carrier Squadrons, 349th Troop Carrier Group, arrive at Barkston,
England from the US with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 924: 752 B-17s and 569 P-51s are dispatched to hit U-boat yards at
Kiel; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 693 of 752 B-17s hit the Deutsche U-boat yard and 24 hit the Howardts
U-boat yard; 2 B-17s hit Flensburg Airfield a target of opportunity; 2 B-17s
are lost and 121 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 20 MIA. Escorting are 517 of
569 P-51s; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost and 2 damaged beyond
repair.
  2. 98 of 100 P-51s fly a sweep of the Kiel area; 1 is damaged beyond
repair.
  3. 4 P-51s escort 1 F-5 on a photo reconnaissance mission over Germany.
  4. 17 of 18 P-51s fly a scouting mission; 2 P-51s are lost.
  Mission 925: 1 B-17 and 10 B-24s are dispatched to drop leaflets in the
Netherlands, France and Germany during the night; 1 returns to base.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves in France: 10th
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 69th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, from
Nancy to Haguenau with F-6s (first mission is 17 Apr); 34th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, XII Tactical Air Command (attached to Provisional
Reconnaissance Group), form Azelot to Haguenau with F-5s.
    Ninth Air Force: In Germany, about 230 B-26s, A-20s and A-26s attack
Holzminden and Hameln marshalling yards, the town of Gottingen, 2 targets of
opportunity, and fly a leaflet mission; fighters fly escort, fly patrols and
armed reconnaissance, support the US 9th Armored Division in the Warburg
area, the XX Corps E of the Werra River toward Muhlhausen and in the Kassel
area, the XII Corps in the Gotha and Suhl areas, and the 2d and 8th Armored
Divisions in the Teutoburger Forest and Neuhaus; unit moves: HQ XXIX Tactical
Air Command (Provisional) to Haltern; HQ 84th and 303d Fighter Wings from
Munchen-Gladbach to Haltern; 14th Liaison Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command
(attached to Twelfth Army Group), from Oberstein to Berkersheim with L-5s;
15th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), from Trier to Ober Olm with F-6s; 507th and 508th Fighter
Squadrons, 404th Fighter Group, from St Trond, Belgium to Keltz with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 95 P-38s divebomb the Tainach-
Stein railroad bridge in Austria; other P-38s and P-51s fly reconnaissance
and escort missions; bad weather prevents bomber operations. HQ 325th Fighter
Group and the 317th, 318th and 319th Fighter Squadrons move from Rimini to
Mondolfo, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 2/3
Apr A-20s bomb the marshalling yard at Mantua, several Po River crossings and
other communications targets in the Po Valley; weather hampers operations
during the day; medium bombers cancel most missions, but manage to bomb the
Po Valley bridges at Camposanto, Usigliano, and Modena; the XXII Tactical Air
Command [including Brazilian and South African Air Force (SAAF) units] blast
communications, fuel dumps, methane plants, trains, motor transport at
numerous points in N Italy (mainly in the Po Valley), including Parma,
Modena, Fidenza, Lodi, Bergamo, Reggio Emilia, and Piacenza. The detachment
of the 414th Night Fighter Squadron, XXII Tactical Air Command, operating
from Florennes, Belgium with Beaufighters, moves to Strossfeld, Germany.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 4 missions are flown during the night and
early morning hours of 3/4 Apr.
  Mission 54: 9 B-29s mine the waters off Hiroshima, Japan without loss.
  Mission 55: In the early morning, 48 of 49 B-29s hit the aircraft plant at
Shizuoka, Japan without loss.
  Mission 56: 43 of 78 B-29s attack the Koizumi aircraft factory and 18 hit
the urban areas in Tokyo as a target of opportunity; they claim 1-0-0
Japanese aircraft.
  Mission 57: 61 of 115 B-29s strike the aircraft plant at Tachikawa and 49
hit the urban area of Kawasaki as a target of opportunity; 1 B-29 is lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: The Hong Kong docks
are again bombed by B-24s. Other B-24s and B-25s hit the airfield, butanol
plant, and railroad yards at Kagi, Formosa while A-20s sweep other rail
targets. On Luzon Island fighter bombers and A-20s hit the Balete Pass-
Baguio-Naguilian area N of the Cagayan Valley supply targets, the Laguna de
Bay area, and Infanta, also, Miri Airfield in Borneo, troops in the Cebu City
area on Cebu Island, and targets on Tarakan Island, Borneo are bombed. B-25s
attack N Hainan Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

01/1426Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:54:28 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: INF: Search service for discharged service personnel

Terry et al:

 If you are seeking the CURRENT ADDRESS and MILITARY SERVICE
 records for discharged military personnel, you can request that
 information from the military's information center at the following address:

U.S. [Air Force] [Army] [Marines] [Navy] Liaison
National Records Center
Building 101
9700 Page Avenue
St. Louis, MO 63132-5100

 These services usually handle requests from veterans themselves,
 but will provide basic public information about service personnel if
 your request states a legitimate purpose. Requests should be succinct
 (no war stories necessary!) and include as much of the following as you know:

Complete name of individual in question
Social Security number, if known
DOB, (YOB, better than nothing)
Last Station
Year of Discharge
Whether individual is still alive
Some statement of appreciation for handling (Optional ;-))

There are phones, too, if you need to clarify what kind of information
 you can expect. Keep in mind, however, these people heave a lot of paper,
 and it's unrealistic to expect any them to give you any records over the phone.
 (They *will* do this for emergency medical records, however.)

National Records Center   314/263-3901
                      ... for Army   314/538-4122
                    Navy/Marines 314/538-4200
                         Air Force   314/538-4243 -- info recording
                         Air Force   314/538-3156 -- Liaison officer
                         Air Force   314/538-3158 -- FAX

Addendum: proof that my memory has gone poof: The fellow who helped
me was Sgt. PATRICK Ratzel, of the Air Force, not Army (oh yeah, the
 guys on the ground). Don't know how the other branch liaisons feel, but
Sgt. Ratzel will take a written request via FAX if you're really under the gun.
There's a *normal* processing period, and then there's how fast he can get
 it done if it's critical. Like all things in life, it depends. (You didn't hear that here!)

Final Addendum: My faulty memory recalls these guys have three
 databases: complete discharges; discharged/reserve; (I think) active duty.

Happy hunting...

-- Jim Brady

-------------------------------------
Name: Jim Brady
E-mail: brady@interaccess.com

-------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:39:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: V-J DAY OR V-P DAY

 >Ben- it is about time that someone thought that as well. I was beginning
 >to think that onlymy brother and I were of that thinking.  Way to go.
 >We beat Japan, why change it because we trade with them now.
 >Chris O'Connor(KVCK@MARISTB.MARISTB.EDU)

WE (!!) trade with them?????  I thought they traded with us and let
a TRICKLE of our products into their country.  Or is it that they
have bought all of our T-bonds and we are afraid of offending them?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:42:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

 >How about the Bogart movie-"Sahara"
 >CRivera

SAHARA was released in 1943.  I remember seeing it during WWII as a
kid.  When I came home from the theater, I put a glass in the
kitchen sink and set the faucet to "slow drip" to see how long it
would take to fill the glass.  I remember I got tired of waiting
and filled the glass up and drank it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 07:19:09 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT

>From:         Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>
>I have never found a satisfactory answer to your question, Joe. "L" in phonetic
>code at that time would have been "Love," but that has nothing to do either
>with April Fool's Day or Easter Sunday. Maybe someone on the board has a better
>answer. Ben Frank


I believe this is referring to the use of L-day instead of D-Day.  In a
footnote on p 72 of _Devil Boats_, by William Breuer, it says

"Douglas MacArthur refused to use the term 'D day' in his Pacific
operations.  He growled to his staff that Gen. Dwight Eisenhower had
'monopolized' the term in Normandy.  The two four-star theater commanders
were not mutual admirers."

Perhaps D-day was so connected to Normandy that they didn't want to use
it again.  In the same book landings in the Phillipines took place on A
day and S day.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139) - and Wickes class....

 >First of all, I find very interesting the USS Ward thread, but I've found
 >some "obscure" details:
 >
 >Frederick J. Milford wrote:
 >
 >> Ward, DD-139, was one of the famous WW I DDs.  She was part of the first
 >> big group DD 75-185, usually known as the Wickes class.  "Four stackers"
 >> or "four pipers".
 >
 >Douglas S. Bohannon wrote:
 >
 >> According to Janes Fighting Ships of WWII, the USS Ward DD-139 was a Flush
 >> Deck Type, 5th Group. It was one of 7 ships. Laid down on 15/5/18, Launched
 >> 1/6/18, Completed 24/7/18. It displaced 1060 tons.

According to the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN NAVAL FIGHTING SHIPS put out by the
USN, the original specs for the Ward (DD-139) as built were:

Length overall: 314' 5"
Extreme beam: 31' 9"
Standard Dispalcement: 1,090 tons
Mean Draft: 8' 8"
Normal Displacement: 1,154 tons
Desinged Complement: 8 officers and 105 enlisted men
Armament:
  Primary: four 4"/50
  Secondary: one 1 pounder and three 30 caliber machine guns
  Torpedo tubes: twelve 21"
Designed speed: 35 knots
Engines: Manufacturer: Mare Island Navy Yard
Drive: Geared Turbine
Designed Shaft Horsepower: 26,000
Boilers
  Manufacturer: Mare Island Navy Yard
  Type: Normand-type
  Number: 4
Screws: 2
Fuel: 288 tons

 >According to Frederick, Ward (DD-139) was part of the Wickes class,
 >composed by 111 ships (DD-75 - DD-185). (Can I assume that Wickes is
 >DD-75??).

Yes.

 >According to Douglas, Ward and her sister ships were only 7(!)
 >(But he's talking about a 5th Group).
 >
 >Please, could anyone of you clarify this? Douglas, when you talk
 >about 7 ships, are you talking about the entire class, or about
 >the specific batch in which USS Ward was built?
 >
 >Another question:
 >
 >Paul Silverstone wrote:
 >
 >> Lots of the others were converted to minelayers
 >> (DM), minesweepers (DMS), seaplane tenders (AVD) and transports (APD).
 >
 >In these designators, does the "D" refer to "Destroyer"? I mean, to
 >indicate that this ship (minesweeper, etc) is a modified destroyer?

Generally, yes.  Destroyers were converted to:

High-Speed Minesweeper (DMS)
High-Speed Transport (APD)
Light Minelayer (DM)
Seaplane Tender, Destroyer (between 1938 and 1940, these converted
  destroyers were known as Small Seaplane Tenders (AVP) but were
  reclassified in 1940 to indicate ex-destroyers)

 >Jorge Merino

According to the Volume I of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN NAVAL
FIGHTING SHIPS, Naval History DIvison, Office of the Chief of Naval
Operations, the Wickes Class consisted of DD 75 to 185.  The first
group was DD 75 to 94, the second group DD 95 to 144, the third
group DD 145 to 160 and the fourth group DD 161 to 185.

COWELL (Destroyer Number 139) was laid down at Mare Island Navy
Yard, Vallejo, California on 15 Mar 18; she was renamed WARD on 20
May 18, was launced on 1 Jun 18 and commissioned on 24 Jul 18.
(How's that for speed??)  In May 19, USS WARD was off Newfoundland
to provide navigational aids and lifeguard services as the NC-1,
NC-3 and NC-4 aircraft began their flight from Newfoundland to the
Azores.  The WARD returned to the Pacific in Jul 19 and was
redesignated DD-139 on 17 Jul 20.  WARD was decommissioned on 21
Jul 21 at San Diego.

WARD recommissioned 15 Jan 41 and arrived in Hawaii on 9 Mar 41.
WARD was assigned to DesDiv 80 consisting of USS Allen (DD-66), USS
Chew (DD-106) and USS Schley (DD-103), three USCG cutters and a
handful of coastal minecraft.  These ships composed the inshaore
patrol and they were ordered to depth-charge suspicious submarine
contacts operating in the defensive sea area.  Each of the old
four-stack DD's had the duty on a weekend and the WARD's turn came
on the first weekend in Dec 41.  The rest is history.

As the newer destroyers became available, the old four-stackers
were relegated to other duties.  WARD sailed to Bremerton,
Washington in late 1942 where she was converted to a High Speed
Transport (APD) and was reclassified APD-16 on 6 Feb 43.  She then
departed for the South Pacific and was based at Espirito Santo, New
Hebrides Islands.  She performed escort and transport duties in the
Solomon Islands until arriving in New Guinea on 17 Dec 43 for duty
with TF 76.  She later operated at Morotai Island until arriving in
the Philippine Islands.

On 7 Dec 44, WARD had landed Army troop at Ormoc Bay in the
Philippines and then began screening patrols between Pomson and
Leyte Islands when 3 Betty bombers attacked.  At 0956 hours local,
one of the Betty's was hit by AA fire from the WARD, wavered, and
crashed the ship at the waterline, entering the forward part of the
boiler room and the after part of the lower troopspace.  One of the
plane's engines continued on throught the ship, exiting at the
waterline on the starboard sdie.  The aircraft blew up starting
uncontrollable fires in the unoccupied troopspaces and in the
fireroom.  Boiler fires flared back and the forced draft blower,
dislodged from its mounting, fell into the fireroom.  Water
pressure dropped below 100 psi making it almost impossible to
fighter the fires.  At 1015 hours, USS O'Brien (DD-725), USS
Saunter (AM-295), USS Scout (AM-296) and USS Crosby (APD-17) stood
towards WARD and lowered boats to pick up survivors.  The "abandon
ship" order was given at 1024 hours and all hands left the ship
(only 1 man had been injured!).  An attempt was made by the other
ships to put out the fires but the Commander of TG 78.3 ordered
that WARD be sunk and O'Brien commenced firing.  WARD sunk at 1130
hours on 7 Dec 44 in Ormoc Bay between Poro Island and Apali Point.
Her name was struck from the Navy list on 20 Jan 45.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 07:51:07 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Accidental Shootings

Did the Marines actually use M-60s in Vietnam?  I thought the heaviest
armor in theater was the M48.

--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:54:38 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

I think the name of the film was None But the Brave-drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |




On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Chip Merton wrote:

> There is/was a series on PBS called American Cinema which had an episode on
> Hollywood's treatment of the genre from after WWI to post-Vietnam. Was VERY
> interesting; esp. the discussion by the Vietnam Vets and how they viewed war
> prior to arriving in Vietnam due to how war was portrayed in the movies.
>
> Well, now to get back on list....
>
> I saw a film several months ago that was a joint US/Japanese production,
> produced by and staring Frank Sanatra. Basicly the story is about a group of
> US servicemen who crash land on an island that has been bypassed but still
> occupied by an equal number of Japanese. A very interesting side note is
> that the special effects (which were rather good for the mid to late 1950's)
> were done by the same company that worked on my other favorite type of film...
>   The Cheap Japanese Horror Movie  (i.e. Godzilla, Mothra, Gamera, et. al)
>
> Anyway my question... What is the name of this film?
> Thanks
>
> --Chip
> Chip Merton
> IN%"merton@vax1.mankato.msus.edu"
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 06:07:00 -0500
From:    Frank Scheidt <frank.scheidt@WOLVERINE.COM>
Subject: Movie Stars in WWII

 WWID>  > to combat in N. Africa. Stars David Niven - one of the few Hollywood stars
 > actually to see combat, and with quite a distinguished record.

 WWID> Diden't we have a discussion a while back on the number of hollywood
 WWID> types who actually fought across Europe and the Pacific?-Drew

Two Hollywood actors who served in combat in WWII and who are
especially noteworthy are:

Clark Gable.  He was in his early forties at the time and wouldn't
              have been drafted.  He voluntarily flew in several
              combat missions in the Army Air Forces over Europe.
              As I recall, once his plane was hit by shrapnel

James Stewart.  He was also in the Army Air Forces and reached the
                rank of Colonel during the war

Most male Hollywood actors seemed to have had some *hidden*
physical disability -- often a "punctured eardrum" ... Frank
Sinatra and Van Johnson come to mind.  They made a number of movies
in which they portray WWII combat vets ...

               Frank.Scheidt@Wolverine.com
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:57:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

 >Well, now to get back on list....
 >
 >I saw a film several months ago that was a joint US/Japanese production,
 >produced by and staring Frank Sanatra. Basicly the story is about a group of
 >US servicemen who crash land on an island that has been bypassed but still
 >occupied by an equal number of Japanese. A very interesting side note is
 >that the special effects (which were rather good for the mid to late 1950's)
 >were done by the same company that worked on my other favorite type of film...

This color film was NONE BUT THE BRAVE released in 1965 and running
105 minutes.  Leonard Maltin in his MOVIE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1995
rates it 2.5 stars out of a possible four.  It was directed by
Francis Albert Sinatra (Old Blue Eyes to those of us who love his
music) and starred Sinatra as a Navy Chief Pharmacist, Clint
Walker, Tommy Sands, Tony Bill and Brad Dexter.  Maltin says, "Taut
war drama focusing on crew of cracked-up plane and Japanese army
patrol who make peace on a remote island during WWII."  Originally
filmed in Panavision.  At one time or another, the film was relased
on videocassette and laserdisc.

 >Anyway my question... What is the name of this film?
 >Thanks
 >--Chip
 >Chip Merton
 >IN%"merton@vax1.mankato.msus.edu"

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:07:12 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

 Well, it's a war movie, about a U-boat crew. It's a little difficult to expect it to clarify Nazism and
the German psyche. I think politics are aptly disposed of in that scene in which the captain is
ridiculing Goebbel's radio propaganda and cursing the inept support from the Luftwaffe: it was a
chess game at sea, is all it boiled down to.

"Celebration"? I don't think DB celebrates anything. Doom and gloom haunt every aspect of the
movie. The cheering is stifled and momentary when they get a sinking, because they
immediately are dodging depth charges in the dark. And when they surface, they are confronted
with the horror of drowning sailors followed by a hopeless new objective.

Whyohwhy...? Well, Buchheim wrote it because it was an experience, and he did survive.
Sometimes that is enough. Nothing about DB is uplifting or message-bearing. It's power seems
to come from a feeling that all this was completely unglamorous, very real.

But I do agree 1936-1949, especially home-front/family/community stuff, is a fertile period for
some fresh German film making.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:02:43 -0600
From:    "NAME \"Tony Schuler\"" <SCHULERE@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

Henry Sirotin wrote:

>And to expand the question a bit, what are the choices for favorite
_fictional_ character of the war, movies or books.

Kurt Steiner and Liam Devlin from The Eagle Has Landed. The movie was
pretty good also. I haven't heard anyone mention it. The movie had Michael
Caine, Donald Sutherland, Robert Duvall, Donald Pleasance, and Larry Hagman
in it.

Tony Schuler

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:29:02 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Apparent misquote (Re: V-J Day or V-P Day)

[ Lou's original, deleted]

>Lou Coatney wrote the above but NOT the below, Jim Brady.  Please
>  be more careful of your quotes and combining posts.
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

[ Jodi's resonse to that, deleted, followed by...]

[ my response to Jodi's, deleted]

And you, Lou, should be careful to label quotes when cautioning
 me to do the same. You didn't mark Jodi's comments when you
 reposted all that stuff. 'Nuff said...Sorry, listers.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:27:26 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Weap: Footnote to Enfield Discussion

Just in case any of you collectors are interested, I just received a
catalog from "Smoky Mountain Knife Works" and they're offering an Enfield
Mark II Spike Bayonet for the Lee Enfield #4 Rifle for a mere $3.99 .
They also have a Spanish Mauser Bayonet ($14.99), a Russian AKM
Bayonet ($16.99), and a M1 Garand Bayonet ($8.99). All are cheaper if you
buy 3 or more (you can mix and match). Just thought y'all would like to
know. Number is 1-800-251-9306 BTW. Cheers,
David Rising & no, I don't work for them :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:05:05 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: great WWII Movies

I'm glad to see Henri Sirotin shares my liking for "Decision Before Dawn",
a superb movie about Allied espionage in Germany in early 1945.  It starred
Oskar Werner, Richard Basehart, and Hildegard Kneff, and was shot on location
in the still rubble-strewn Germany of the early '50's.  No movie I know of
conveys a more authentic feel for the ambience of wartime Germany.
My own video colection includes an unusual item called "The Battle of El
Alamein".  What's unusual about it is that the story is told from the Italian
viewpoint.  The main characters are soldiers of the Folgore airborne division
making a heroic last stand against the attacking 8th Army.  The film does
include Michael Rennie playing Montgomery and the great actor John Mills
but it is very much an Italian movie (with dubbed English dialogue). I'd
be interested to know if Joe Barone is aware of this film.  I found it a
good movie and a reminder that Italians could and did fight very well in the
desert war.
 Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:10:42 -0800
From:    Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Polish Forces in Battle of Britain

        At the opening of the Battle of Britain, the RAF had two
complete Polish squadrons flying Hawker Hurricanes:

        302 Sq (WX)     11 Group        Northolt
        303 Sq (RF)     12 Group        Leconfield

        Before the battle ended, two more Polish Hurricane Squadrons
were brought on line.

        306 Sq (UZ)     12 Group        Church Fenton
        308 Sq (ZF)     9 Group         Bagington


        Three things to remember:

        1.  There undoubtedly were Polish pilots flying
other types of aircraft during the Battle of Britain in squadrons
that were not all Polish.

        2.  As the war continued, the RAF added additional Polish
squadrons to the books.

        3.  Some, if not all, of the Battle of Britain squadrons
converted to other aircraft types later in the war.  I know for a
fact that 303 Sq converted from Hurricane Is to Spitfire Vs
Sometime after the BoB.


--

Steve L. New
newst@ix.netcom.com
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 09:22:50 -0800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

It's been quite a while since I watched "Hell in The Pacific", but wasn't
Lee Marvin playing a Marine fighter pilot?
Jim Curry
kidcurry@billings.lib.mt.us


On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Peter Smith wrote:

> Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU> said:
> ...
> > I also liked The Big Red One.  Although the highlight was Lee Marvin's
> > acting? or just being himself.  Lee is buried at Arlington National
> > Cemeterynot very far from Joe Louis.
>
> Speaking of just being himself, I've always thought it ironic that Lee
> Marvin, a Marine in WW-II, played army ("Attack!", "The Dirty Dozen",
> "The Big Red One") and navy ("You're in the Navy Now", "The Caine Mutiny",
> "Donovan's Reef", "Hell in the Pacific") roles, but never got to play a
> leatherneck on the screen.
>
> Apropos both the movie thread and the current discussion of VJ or not-VJ,
> may I recommend "Hell in the Pacific"?  While the ending is a cop-out,
> the bulk of the film is quintisentially gritty acting by Marvin and
> Toshiro Mifune, and can be viewed as a parable for the way wartime
> antagonism gave way to necessary interdependance.
> --
> Peter Smith -- psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com
> Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 12:19:59 EST
From:    Richard King <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Das Boot?Nasty Girl

Julie and others interested:
Have you ever seen THE NASTY GIRL (by Michael Verhoeven)? It is
based on a true story, in which a girl enters an essay contest
concerning her research into her town's Nazi past during the war.
As she discovers some big and small secrets the town does not
want uncovered, she gets in trouble (threats, etc.). It is really
excellent. Especially interesting is the way flashbacks are
shown in black and white, the present in color (which is done
a lot now, but not so much in 1990 when the film came out).
I would list this one as perhaps my favorite WWII film.
Has anyone seen it?

Richard L. King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)
  Still reading WWII-L after all these years.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 12:28:54 EST
From:    Richard King <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Another film/MacArthur's Children

All this film talk got me thinking about another film called
MACARTHUR'S CHILDREN. The blurb says: "At the end of WWII, the
inhabitants of a small island off the coast of Japan prepared
for an invasion: U.S. soldiers bringing peace. MACARTHUR'S
CHILDRENis the tender, beautifully photographed drama of how
the citizens of Japan came to terms with their nation's defeat.
The sudden and shattering occupation of General MacArthur and
the American forces is seen through the eyes of Komoko (Masako
Natsume), a fifth grade teacher, and her students."

This was a really poignant and inspiring film made around 1984.
Especially uplifting was a baseball game between American troops
and the Japanese. The film opened with grainy footage of MacArthur and
the surrender, then BANG, the soundtrack soared into some great
swing music as the G.I.s landed.
Anyone seen this one?
--Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 13:25:22 PST
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Das Boot?Nasty Girl

>Julie and others interested:
>Have you ever seen THE NASTY GIRL (by Michael Verhoeven)? It is
>based on a true story, in which a girl enters an essay contest
>concerning her research into her town's Nazi past during the war.
>As she discovers some big and small secrets the town does not
>want uncovered, she gets in trouble (threats, etc.). It is really
>excellent. Especially interesting is the way flashbacks are
>shown in black and white, the present in color (which is done
>a lot now, but not so much in 1990 when the film came out).
>I would list this one as perhaps my favorite WWII film.
>Has anyone seen it?
>
>Richard L. King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)
>  Still reading WWII-L after all these years.
>

Ja, aber es ist nur auf deutsche, richtig? I saw a sub-titled version,
but got cinema-interuptus then had to return it. I left off
where she just got married ... how far into the film is that?

--Jim

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 12:33:42 -0600
From:    Terrence Lindell <LINDELL@WARTBURG.EDU>
Subject: USS JUNEAU

There was a recent post that was a message from J. J. Gardner
to Larry Jewell regarding the USS JUNEAU.  Gardner is the son of
one of the 10 survivors and mentioned an upcoming reunion.

I tried the e-mail address for Gardner listed in the post, but
it bounced back.  I will post this to the list in hopes either
that he sees it or that someone can send me his address.

There is a new book out on the 5 Sullivan brothers who were lost
with the JUNEAU went it was sunk in November, 1942.  It is entitled
_We Band of Brothers_ and is written by Jack Satterlee.  I will
be happy to pass along information regarding price and publisher
if anyone is interested.

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
lindell@wartburg.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:18:44 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII flicks

OPEN CITY
Yes, another from among the verybest.

Regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:23:42 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

In my humble opinion, A PIECE OF CAKE is a piece of crap.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:21:21 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

Julie...
        Thanks for your most thoughtful and clear-eyed post.

Regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:06:02 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Doug McCabe...
        Yes, indeed, Doug.
I place THEIRS IS THE GLORY among the top ten best war movies ever.

Regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:36:13 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MOVIE: Battle of the Bulge

One interesting coincidence is that both David Niven and Dirk Bogard
served for a while with PHANTOM - the special reconnaisance unit charged
with bringing front-line intelligence directly to General Montgomery and
General Eisenhower.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:42:56 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Nephews

Kelvin...
        Yes, the best known of Hitler's nephews was British born, the
son of Adolph's brother, Alois and an Irishwoman Alois married while
he (Alois) was a waiter in Dublin.
        The couple separated and eventually divorced. Hitler's nephew
grew up in London. He went to Germany once in the mid-THirties, and met
with Der Furher only once. The visit did not result in much, except to
give his mother the idea of becoming a lecturer, the theme of (something like)
"I am Hitler's sisterin-law...
        Mother and son emigrated to New York around 1936. When the US enetered
the war, in 1941, Hitler's nephew - a British subject, volunteered for service
in the US Navy. Little bit of interesting trivia -- the Naval officer who
swore in the lad was named -- Lt Commander Hess.

Favorite WW2 story of mine.

Regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 14:50:26 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: OKINAWA COMMEMORAT

Yes, John, on that basis, it would seem to be the reason for "L-Day," but
MacArthur had nothing to do with Okinawa. It was CinCPac's show and all the
troops in the operation, starting from the Tenth Army down, and all the naval
and air units came under Nimitz. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:16:58 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Jim Benn...
        Thank you for mentioning THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES.
How could one not mention such a splendid movie.
        Another one of the best top ten war movies ever.
It captured the very essence of how it was for many veterans who came
home soon after war's end.

Regards -- Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:03:03 -0500
From:    Laurie Peloquin <lpeloqui@MC6ADM.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

On Sat, 1 Apr 1995, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> In my humble opinion, A PIECE OF CAKE is a piece of crap.
>
> Sidney.

Could you elaborate on this comment please?  A Piece of Cake is one of my
all time favourite television dramas.  The characters are believable,
with no great heroes or anti-heroes.  Even bad-boy Moggy manages some
personable moments.  Is it the story that you didn't like, or its
representation of fighter pilots?  Was it the technical aspects?  Don't
just slam this film - expand on your humble opinion! :-)

Laurie Peloquin
Wilfred Laurier University
lpeloqui@mc6adm.uwaterloo.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 13:50:27 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

'Couple of years ago, I saw a fine German-made TV series about their
homefront during WW2 --
                        HEIMAT (homeland)
Was in german, with English sub-titles. Very well done show.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 13:54:42 -0800
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: great WWII Movies

DECISION BEFORE DAWN was also released under the title
        SOME CALL IT TREASON
Well done, documentary style (though fiction based on fact) movie about
those brave German soldiers who while PWs volunteered to parachute back
into Germany as American espionage agents during the last months of WW2.
Oskar Werner was particularly believeable in it.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:53:43 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: BB North Carolina

Todd,

This is from the "United States Naval Chronology World War II."

15 September 1942
   Carrier task force (Rear Adm. L. Noyes) covering transport of
   reinforcements from Espiritu Santo, New Herbrides, to Guadl-
   canal, Solomon Islands, is attacked by 2 Japanese submarines
   which sink 1 aircraft carrier and damage a battleship and a
   destroyer.
   Japanese battleships bombard Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands.
      Carrier Wasp (CV-7), severely damaged by submarine
      torpedo, near Espiritu Santo, New Hebrides, 12deg 25min S.,
      164.08min E.; sunk by United States forces.
   United States naval vessels damaged:
      Battleship North Carolina (BB-55) and Destroyer O'Brien
         (DD-415), by submarine torpedoes, near Espiritu Santo,
         New Herbrides.

I hope this helps.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:53:43 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Ward (DD-139) - and W...

Jorge,

According to Janes.

   The Ward was one of seven in the 5th group but one of 57 Flush Deck Type
Destroyers built around WWI. More than 57 Flush Deck Type Destroyers were
constructed but, at the time the Janes book I have was printed, many were
already converted to Light Minelayers, Seaplane Tenders, Fast Minesweepers and
 Transports.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:53:51 -0500
From:    "Douglas S. Bohannon" <DSB77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Medals and Awards

Matthew,

While I agree with some of what you wrote, I don't agree with your argument.

I believe collectors are an important part of the preservation of militaria.

Consider where museums come from. Some are publicly funded but many are
private
collections in which the collector has incorporated as a non-profit
corporation and opened
his collection to the public. This is a great pretense for building a large
collection through
purchases and donations. I have also read of museums selling items to
collectors to raise
revenue.

What makes an item collectable? Museums seek out items that rare and
valuable. Often,
the value of an item is based on what a collector will pay for that
particular item. For
example, a Polish pilots badge does not have as great a collectors value as a
German pilots
badge, even though it is a less common item. Many museums I have visited have
made an
effort to display the German pilots badge but little effort is expended in
displaying less
common pilots badges.

There is no guarantee that items in a museum will be safely preserved. For
example, The
Collier Aircraft Museum in south Florida was literally destroyed by hurricane
Andrew.
While attempts are being made to restore some of the aircraft, the loss is
still tremendous.

While museums may eventually show their entire collection, this may take
years and in the
case of larger museums, it may take a lifetime. Obviously there are items
stored in
museums that may never be seen by the public.

As for availability to the public. There are some excellent militaria
displays in US and
foreign museums, Unfortunately, most people can not afford to travel the long
distances
required to enjoy the museums and certainly can not afford multiple trips to
view changing
displays.

I believe that many museum curators are also collectors.

Collectors are an intrinsic part of the valuation and preservation of
militaria and other
artifacts. With out collectors, there would be fewer museums and far less inte
rest in
militaria.

Doug Bohannon
dsb77@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:45:44 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accidental Shootings

My hands are busy with my jids, Steve. Good question though. In training
in 1980, practiced killing 60's.  The M1 was 'round the corner. I
imagine that the M60 was in Viet Nam for a goos stint. I would suggest
posing your question to scarecrow@uriacc.uri.edu,... he was the one
with the claim. I have yet to "interogate" him. ;-) Alan #244 VWar-L

Steve New wrote,...
>
>Did the Marines actually use M-60s in Vietnam?  I thought the heaviest
>armor in theater was the M48.
>
>--
>
>Steve L. New
>newst@ix.netcom.com
>Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:55:22 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weap: Footnote to Enfield Discussion

They must quite a few to offer them for dollars countable on one hand.
Thanks for the info!

Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:58:47 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Das Boot?Nasty Girl

'Best so far. 'My vote for best topic.

-Alan

Richard King wrote,...
>
>Julie and others interested:
>Have you ever seen THE NASTY GIRL (by Michael Verhoeven)? It is
>based on a true story, in which a girl enters an essay contest
>concerning her research into her town's Nazi past during the war.
>As she discovers some big and small secrets the town does not
>want uncovered, she gets in trouble (threats, etc.). It is really
>excellent. Especially interesting is the way flashbacks are
>shown in black and white, the present in color (which is done
>a lot now, but not so much in 1990 when the film came out).
>I would list this one as perhaps my favorite WWII film.
>Has anyone seen it?
>
>Richard L. King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)
>  Still reading WWII-L after all these years.

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:09:53 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another film/MacArthur's Children

I detract my vote from the former, and place it upon the present. THIS
has got to be the winning film (even though I haven't seen them).
-Alan

Richard King came out with this one,...
>
>All this film talk got me thinking about another film called
>MACARTHUR'S CHILDREN. The blurb says: "At the end of WWII, the
>inhabitants of a small island off the coast of Japan prepared
>for an invasion: U.S. soldiers bringing peace. MACARTHUR'S
>CHILDRENis the tender, beautifully photographed drama of how
>the citizens of Japan came to terms with their nation's defeat.
>The sudden and shattering occupation of General MacArthur and
>the American forces is seen through the eyes of Komoko (Masako
>Natsume), a fifth grade teacher, and her students."
>
>This was a really poignant and inspiring film made around 1984.
>Especially uplifting was a baseball game between American troops
>and the Japanese. The film opened with grainy footage of MacArthur and
>the surrender, then BANG, the soundtrack soared into some great
>swing music as the G.I.s landed.
>Anyone seen this one?
>--Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU)

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:56:24 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Hmmmm

'Having a couple of beers ('won't say how large)... 'just want to apologize
for typos...

Alslain Wild ;-)

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 21:35:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Polish Forces in Battle of Britain

 >        At the opening of the Battle of Britain, the RAF had two
 >complete Polish squadrons flying Hawker Hurricanes:
 >
 >        302 Sq (WX)     11 Group        Northolt
 >        303 Sq (RF)     12 Group        Leconfield

No 302 Squadron was formed on 13 Jul 40 at Leconfield with
Hurricane Mk Is; they moved to Northolt on 11 Oct 40 and got into
the final stages of the Battle of Britain.  Their aircraft during
the war were:

  Jul 40-Mar 41: Hurricane Mk I
  Mar 41-May 41: Hurricane Mk IIA
  May 41-Jul 41: Hurricane Mk I
  Jul 41-Oct 41: Hurricane Mk IIB
  Oct 41-Sep 43: Spitfire Mk VB & VC
  Sep 43-Feb 45: Spitfire Mk IX
  Feb 45-Dec 46: Spitfire Mk XVI

No 303 Squadron was formed at Northolt on 22 Jul 40 with Huricane
Mk Is and took part in the BOB until mid-Oct 40.  Their aircaft
during the war were:

  Aug 40-Jan 41: Hurricane Mk I
  Jan 41-Mar 41: Spitfire Mk I
  Feb 41-Aug 41: Spitfire Mk IIA and IIB
  Aug 41-Oct 41: Spitfire Mk I
  Oct 41-Jun 43: Spitfire Mk VB
  Jun 43-Nov 43: Spitfire Mk IX
  Nov 43-Jul 44: Spitfire Mk VB
  Jul 44-Apr 45: Spitfire Mk IX
  Apr 45-Dec 46: Mustang Mk IV

 >        Before the battle ended, two more Polish Hurricane Squadrons
 >were brought on line.
 >
 >        306 Sq (UZ)     12 Group        Church Fenton
 >        308 Sq (ZF)     9 Group         Bagington

No 306 Squadron was formed at Church Fenton on 28 Aug 40 and
became operational on 8 Sep 40 with Hurricane Mk Is.  No 308
Squadron was formed on 9 Sep 40 and did not become operational
until 12 Dec 40 with Hurricane Mk Is after the BOB was over.

 >        Three things to remember:
 >
 >        1.  There undoubtedly were Polish pilots flying
 >other types of aircraft during the Battle of Britain in squadrons
 >that were not all Polish.
 >
 >        2.  As the war continued, the RAF added additional Polish
 >squadrons to the books.
 >
 >        3.  Some, if not all, of the Battle of Britain squadrons
 >converted to other aircraft types later in the war.  I know for a
 >fact that 303 Sq converted from Hurricane Is to Spitfire Vs
 >Sometime after the BoB.
 >
 >Steve L. New
 >newst@ix.netcom.com
 >Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

No 300 thru No 309 and No 315 thru 318 Squadrons were all Polish
squadrons in the RAF:

  No 300, 301, 304 and 305 Squadrons were bomber outfits
  No 307 Squadron was a night fighter unit
  No 309 Squadron was a tactical reconnaissance unit and later a
    fighter unit
  No 315 thru 317 Squadrons were fighter units

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 11:53:28 JST
From:    Hirokazu Iyemoto <iyemoto@IC.NANZAN-U.AC.JP>
Subject: Subscription

Tell Listserv@UBVM sub WWII-L Hiroichi Iyemoto
          *************************************************
          *            $B2H (B      $BK\ (B        $BGn (B      $B0l (B
  *
          *        $BFn;3Bg3X7P:Q3XIt65<x (B   $B7P:Q3XGn;N (B        *
          *         Professor Dr Hiroichi IYEMOTO         *
          *    Nanzan University, Faculty of Economics    *
          * /466/18 Yamazato-cho, Showa-ku, Nagoya, Japan *
          *           iyemoto@ic.nanzan-u.ac.jp           *
          *************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 31 Mar 1995 to 1 Apr 1995
************************************************


