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There are 37 messages totalling 1474 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. LORD LOVAT  D-DAY COMM
  2. INF: 50 YEARS AGO - 01 (2)
  3. Paul H. Silverstone
  4. Raid on Cabanatuan #8
  5. GEN: Bataan, again. (2)
  6. INF: USN Chronology 04-02-95
  7. VE/VJ Day Celebrations, Commemorations in England
  8. VET: Los ALamos S.E.D reunion?
  9. What If? (4)
 10. Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory (9)
 11. Intelligence on Tirpitz
 12. Aggressive war
 13. Das Boot
 14. Women's WWII Literature
 15. Tactics (?) Assurance of ...
 16. INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-APR-1945
 17. WWII flicks
 18. Hitler's Body
 19. Re[2]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory (2)
 20. Tactics (?) Assurance (2)
 21. Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.
 22. Raid on Cabanatuan #9

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 00:53:01 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: LORD LOVAT  D-DAY COMM

On receipt of the news of Lord Lovat's death, it is appropriate to play the
pipe tune, "Lord Lovat's Lament." Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 00:55:07 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 YEARS AGO - 01

John, you are so accurate, it pains me to tell you that the 5th Marine Division
was not part of the III Amphibious Corps, but the V Amphibious Corps and had
just recently finished the battle of Iwo Jima. Cheers, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 22:15:27 -0800
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul H. Silverstone

You wrote:

>
>On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Ed Kettler wrote:
>
>> You wrote:
>>
>>
>> >     Are you *the* Paul H. Silverstone, who authored/compiled
>> >U.S. WARSHIPS OF WORLD WAR II, the exhaustive little handbook
>> >that is running for upwards of $40 in the out-of-print catalogs,
>> >now?
>> >
>> The US Naval Institute reprinted this book a few years ago, so it may
be
>> still in print/available.  I wish someone would reprint the rest of
the
>> series.  I am beginning to think I'm funding Q. M. Dabney's
retirement
>> fund buying those books <BWG>.
>>
>> Ed Kettler
>> deradler@ix.netcom.com
>>
>I have tried to persuade the Naval Institute to publish a new and
revised
>series of the World War II and World War I (New Navy) books in an
>expanded format but no go.  The reprint a few years ago of the WWII
book
>contained an errata and addenda list but there is much new information
>and new pictures which could go into an expanded new book.  They don't
>think there is any demand for such a book.
>Paul Silverstone
>
>
Paul,

That's too bad.  I always found the series very useful.  Larry Bond,
Chris Carlson and I recently released a WW II naval miniatures wargame,
Command at Sea, and I had your book close by at all times.  I also have
the German and Japnese volumes, plus the British and Commonwealth book
is en route from Dabney.  Too bad about USNI; maybe if they'd gotten
started around 1989 we could have had the series redone by this year.
Sigh.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Apr 1995 23:05:19 -0800
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #8

INSTALLMENT EIGHT IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
4/1/95

January 9, 1945.
-----------------
MacArthur's army lands on the west coast of Luzon and fights toward
manila.

At POW Camp Cabanatuan, the garrison force evacuates to retreat north,
leaving only a few guards who are too sick to travel. The allied POW's
grab the chance to break into the Japanese side and steal food. The
daring theft yields the first meal of meat in 1,120 days. But, more
Japanese troops, evacuating the big cities, arrive at the camp bringing
the total guard strength to a little over 100 men, thus ending the POWs'
chance to steal food.

--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 01:59:42 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Bataan, again.

I admit, I haven't followed the discussion on the Bataan Death March all
that closely, nor have I really watched any of the discussions as to whether
it was a wise military move or not.  Jeff, a recent member to the list, was
also at the banquet (heck, the signed the check that I countersigned :-), so
perhaps he has some thoughts and recollections to add to this... I didn't
take notes and wish I had...

However, this evening, we had a guest speaker at our annual Awards Banquet.
Our planned speaker for the evening couldn't attend and arranged for a last
minute replacement.  This was in the form of Mr. Philip Brain, currently of
Edina, MN.  He survived the Bataan Death March and 3.5 years as a Japanese
POW.  Jeff Keopp, a recent member to the list, was also at the banquet (heck,
he signed the check that I countersigned :-), so perhaps he has some thoughts
and recollections to add to this... I didn't take notes and wish I had...

His talk was very emotional... Room stayed painfully silent ... Even
those who really had "to go" never left until he was finished.  He had to
stop several times to collect his thoughts and at least a few times -- his
composure.  I was told that he spent most of his post-war life trying to come
to terms with his experience and only recently found the strength to talk
publicly about them.  That battle was clearly evident in his presentation.

He started by telling us how he found himself in the Phillippines, near Clark
Field in September of 1941.  On December 8th (local time), they got word that
the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor.  He was in a tank batallion and
everyone was ordered to take up positions and defend against an anticipated
Japanese paratroop attack.  However, since the U.S. had not as of that time
yet declared war on the Japanese nation, they were ordered to defend -- but
not to fire.  An interesting predicament indeed!!

Every aircraft at Clark Field was in the air, with the exception of the three
bamboo P-40s at the end of the field.  Sometime along the way, everyone was
essentially "recalled" with the claims that there were no Japanese aircraft in
the air.  Somehow, they managed to convince the commanding officer to let them
stay put because they just didn't believe it.  They then heard that every
aircraft at Clark had been destroyed.  But they knew they were in the air, so
perhaps it was the dummies.  When they got back, they found that all the
aircraft had been recalled and lined up so very nicely for the two flights of
27 Japanese bombers who systematically wiped them out -- except for the three
bamboo P-40s, which were untouched.

The retreating battle got them into Bataan.  He said the order was WP6 (War
Plan 6), which he felt should have been WP6WF (Without Food).

Almost immediately, they were reduced to two meals per day.  At the time of
surrender, they were down to one meal per day.  He made it clear that most
people were in no condition to effect a successful fight.  He said that the
lack of food was taking such a physical toll that if you stood up too fast,
the instant onset of dizziness would make you collapse.  These were not
effective combat soldiers.

Most of these 12,000 men were on the Phillippines or in Bataan prior to the
attack on Pearl Harbor.  Neither they, nor the U.S., had any real experience
of knowledge of Japanese POW treatment -- at least not treatment of American
POWs.  There was no comparison to base a decision on.  At this point, the
trust was probably put in the Japanese word of honor... Or at least their
word.

Air cover was non-existent.  They were harassed by Japanese bombers by day --
every day -- and by artillery at night.  No sleep, no peace, no food, no
supplies and no likelihood of relief or rescue led to only a couple of options.
Surrender and (in theory and all belief) survive or fight ineffectively and
be slaughtered.  He didn't quite word things in that way, but you could read
the emotions in the recollection of the decision making process.

I know that there are also people here who disagree with surrender, either in
general or in this case, but at least for a good portion of the force, a
picture was painted this evening that made it clear that fighting was a poor
option, perhaps, maybe even certainly, a guaranteed disaster or slaughter.

The next half hour were the most riveting and difficult things I have listened
to in a long while...

He talked about the march itself... If you were too weak to continue, you were
bayonetted or shot.  They were stripped of everything he had immediately.
Phil was left with a canteen (which was also his pillow for the next 3.5 years)
and the lid from a mess kit.  The Japanese would rest the group by artesian
springs.  They told them that if anyone tried to get water from these springs,
they would be shot.  Many people tried to make a dash for the springs and get
back.  He said that after a while, the bodies that choked the springs made it
impossible to even try and dash for it.

Part of the transport included being transported in steel box cars.  They
were packed so dense that when POWs died en-route, and many did, they couldn't
fall.  They stayed standing until the doors opened and they were let out at
their next stop.

At this stop, they heard some locals yelling to the prisoners... If they had
any Japanese currency on them, get rid of it!  At first, they figured this
was just some locals trying to get cash off of them.  But then he saw two
prisoners found with Japanese currency.  They were forced to kneel, were
beheaded and their heads placed on stakes for all to see.

He spoke of one of three POW ships he was on.  Like the box cars, there was
no room to sit or lie down.  One bucket left near the gangway was supposed to
be used as a latrine, but you couldn't get to it.  As prisoners died, their
bodies were passed overhead, out to the deck and thrown overboard.  Eventually
enough prisoners died to where they had room to sit down.  By the end of the
war, he had been on three POW ships.

In the camps, they would lose 50-60 prisoners per night.  Dysentery and
malaria were the biggest problems as well as malnutrition and overwork.
If you worked, you lived.  When you couldn't work anymore, you were shot
or bayonnetted.  Much of the time the work details dug two trenches -- one
for a latrine, one for burials.  He said they never were able to keep up
with either.  The burial trenches were the worst, of course.  Bodies would
be stacked every morning.  The rainy season was the worst, as the rain would
wash away the layer of dirt placed on the previous batch of burials.

One of Phil's details was working on a bridge reconstruction crew.  By this
time, he was down to 95 pounds, but the job required varrying 96 pound bags
of concrete and preparing the mixture.  Eventually he couldn't do his job and
was put in the hospital shed.  One night he woke up to two Japanese officers,
looking at him.  One gave an order to the other -- "This is the next one to
die."  He immediately went to his CO to request reinstatement onto the work
details.

He spoke of a group of eight prisoners who had been granted permission to go
outside the gates to collect wild sweet potatoes.  They spent the day collecting
food and were always guarded by four Japanese soldiers.  When they returned to
the camp, a discussion with the camp guards and their guards occurred and then
the guards opened fire and killed all eight.

He spoke of a camp where each "cabin" (concrete floor and walls) held 50
prisoners.  By this time, clothing essentially consisted of a G-string and
nothing else.  No blankets, no nothing.  So the crews working in the rice
fields during the rains really had serious problems.

At this camp, rebels had somehow managed to rescue one prisoner from a work
party.  The camp CO ordered that the remaining 49 be executed.  The Allied
CO succeeded in getting that number reduced to 10.  Phil said we should all
be proud of those 10 -- every one refused a blind fold and held their
composure throughout the ideal.

He spoke of a work party that returned to camp late.  They were working in
the rice fields -- a party of about 1,000.  It was the rainy season, it was
cold and all they had were their minimal G-string things.  Phil was trying
to sneak to the hospital cabin to visit a friend who had had a _second_
amputation surgery (without anaesthetic in both cases) when he heard a noise
coming toward the camp -- he then saw the row of headlights of the returning
work party, coming about 2 hours late.  The sound was of the work party
singing "God Bless America."  (This was one of the times when Phil clearly
had to pause to clear his own eyes.)  This song had been started by one man
who was freezing and had kindof "balled himself up" to conserve warmth and
started humming the song.  A few people picked up on it and started singing
it.  By the time they got to camp, it had spread through all the trucks.

Undoubtedly this scared a lot of people... how would the Japanese finally
react?  The next day, he saw wheelbarrows being brought to the cabin which
housed the commanding American prisoner.  The Japanese CO brought the wheel-
barrows to the hut, saluted the American CO, ordered his men to leave and
went on.  The wheel barrow were filled with bananas, avocados and/or other
similar fruits.

Some 2.5 years have now passed and the Allied forces are moving closer and
closer.  They were now being shipped to Japan.  They knew this was the end
for them one way or another.  They were told -- if Japan itself were invaded,
every prisoner would be executed immediately.  Since they had no clue about
what was to come, the atomic bomb or even the existence of the B-29, they
really felt their days were numbered.  Japan _would_ be invaded and they
would be killed.   The only way they would survive -- maybe -- is if Japan
somehow won this war... And if they were, why were they moving all their
prisoners to Japan?

He was on the last ship to leave for the home islands that did not get
attacked by American subs... though they heard nearby depth charge attacks.

The ship that immediately followed them had 1,619 prisoners on board.  It was
torpedoed.  Those survivors were put on a second ship which was also
torpedoed.  A third ship was the home for those that survived and was also
torpedoed.  By this time, 175 of the 1,619 prisoners were still alive.

He was one of the POWs at Cabanatuan -- ironically, the subject of a recent
and current series of postings on the mailing list.

In Japan they worked a mine... 438 steps down and 438 steps back up.  There
were elevators of course -- just not for them.  At the end of the day, the
worst thing was climbing the stairs -- tired, exhausted and hungry.  The only
way you got through it was distracting yourself.  He did it by planning his
Thanksgiving dinner each day.

Then one day in August, they were sent back.  "No mines for you today."  They
knew something big had to happen.  Then they got the word...!  America has
surrendered!

Three days later they learned that Japan was the one that had actually
surrendered.  They were ordered to climb to the roofs and paint POW on the
roofs, which they did.

When the B-29s spotted the camp, they responded by dropping supplies, medicine
and food.  He mentioned that some chutes failed to open.  He also said that
most of the food went into big vats to make "B-29 Stew."

He came home on a hospital ship.  When he got home, his family had no idea
that he was coming home -- probably wasn't sure he was alive.  When he got
to the west coast and called home, he found that his mother had had a heart
attack and died in 1943 and his brother was killed in action in England,
flying for the Air Corp.  Coming home was painful, but he was home.

Throughout all of this presentation, I watched a few grown men get angry at
the mistreatment he and others endured ... But mostly, I saw a lot of misty-
eyed people of all ages.  When he finished, the standing ovation (which is
fairly rare in our group) was immediate, honest and substantial.  The silence
which followed was almost as painful.  Nobody knew what to say or do, so a
brief recess was called which allowed a Pee and Bar break and to catch your
breath.

But to come full circle, one can't justify the actions done based on the
experiences of one man... But while I didn't ask him personally whether he
felt -- at the time the orders were given -- that the surrender order was
proper, he presented a picture that made it unquestionable that there was
no alternatives.  They were beaten, hungry and had no hope.

In fact, he said that the first night after surrender was the best night of
sleep he had had in more than four months, because for the first time, they
were not being bombed or shelled constantly.

Was the order right or wrong?  The slaughter that followed is just plain, true
and complete brutality and crimes beyond belief.  But I was left with the
feeling that based on what was believed to be reality and what the true
situation was of the man in the field, surrender was the proper course of
action.  They had already met their objectives -- the bottle up enough
Japanese forces to screw up their schedule and the supplies made it impossible
to even feed their own troops adequately enough to keep them all _conscious_.

The debate over the order will probably continue forever.  But before an
order or decision is condemned, I've always felt it important to listen to
the stories of those that were there.  I've met very few and listened to the
story of only one.  But while in the past I've refused to make decision as
to right or wrong, now I'm forced to acknowledge the decision as being the
right one -- if all was as it was supposed to be.

(He also recalled the statement of one of the guards who said "We will beat
America, even if it takes 100 years!"  He made the comment that sometimes he
feels that after 50 years, they're halfway there... :-)

All I know for certain at this point is that we need to get this guy's story
on tape... Most incredible TRUE story of survival I've ever heard.  And the
debate over Bataan continues -- and for this guy, in Japan as a POW, the
debate over the atom bomb is just as close to the heart.  Atom bomb meant
the POWs survived at went home.  Invasion meant that the POWs were executed.
The atom bomb saved his life after all he had been through and survived, it
probably boiled down to that one sequence of events.

[I'm actually kinda glad our speaker-of-choice couldn't make it -- very
heavy stuff for an awards banquet, but YOW...]



--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-02-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/02 Mon. Army forces supported by destroyers land on Sanga Sanga
           and Bangao Islands, Sulu Archipelago, P. I.
           Submarine HARDHEAD (SS-365) lays mines off Cape Kamao,
           Cochin China.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer SHAW (DD-373), by grounding, Leyte area, P. I.,
              09 d. 36'N., 123 d. 53'E.
             Destroyer FRANKS (DD-554), by collision, Okinawa area,
              25 d. 49'N., 130 d. 01'E.
             Destroyer PRICHETT (DD-561), by horizontal bomber,
              Okinawa area,
              27 d. 17'N., 127 d. 51'E.
             Destroyer BORIE (DD-704), by collision, Okinawa area,
              23 d. 36'N., 131 d. 40'E.
             Destroyer escort FOREMAN (DE-633), by dive bomber,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 10'N., 127 d. 11'E.
             Attack transport CHILTON (APA-38), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              25 d. 59'N., 127 d. 17'E.
             Attack transport HENRICO (APA-45), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              25 d. 59'N., 127 d. 17'E.
             Attack transport GOODHUE (APA-107), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              25 d. 56'N., 127 d. 17'E.
             Attack transport TELFAIR (APA-210), by suicide plane,
              Okinawa area,
              25 d. 56'N., 127 d. 17'E.
             Attack cargo ship LACERTA (AKA-29),
              accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 43'E.
             LST 599, by suicide plane, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 10'N., 127 d. 16'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Coast defense vessel NO. 186, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Yellow Sea.
             Transport NO. 17, by carrier-based aircraft, Yellow Sea.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 08:26:06 -0400
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 YEARS AGO - 01

On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Ben Frank wrote:

> John, you are so accurate, it pains me to tell you that the 5th Marine Division
> was not part of the III Amphibious Corps, but the V Amphibious Corps and had
> just recently finished the battle of Iwo Jima. Cheers, Ben Frank
>

Hum - my source has it cited incorrectly. I got this from "2194 Days" which
seems to pick up everything from the green book Chronology volume. I thought
it rather strange when I wrote this, for them to just come off the line (like
last week) and to go straight to Okinawa; but that is what the source said so
I included it. Thanks for pointing this out.

John

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 07:50:29 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: VE/VJ Day Celebrations, Commemorations in England

The following are VE/VJ days events scheduled in England this year, from
Historic Traveller Magazine May/June 1995, reprinted without permission.

All typos are mine, this is all the information given.

Ongoing Event: The Tank Museum Exhibition, Bovington, Dorset:
        An exhibition of WWII and events leading up to and including VE/VJ day
        on permanent display.

Through Aug. 31st: D-Day to Victory:
        The story of the landings in Normandy in June 1944 and the subsequent
        campaigns in Northwest Europe leading to the Allied Victory in May 1945.
        The Imperial War Museum.

March 17-November 27: London at War:
        An exhibition about London and Londoners at war told through photgraphs,
        film, sound recordings, documents and personal momentos. The Imperial
        War Museum.

April 7-October 1: The Channel Islands: Occupation and Liberation 1940-1945
        The story of the only part of the British Isles to be occupied in WWII
        with fascinating exhibits illustrating daily life and the privations
        suffered by the Islanders. The Imperial War Museum, London.

April 28-30: 1945 Re-lived, Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk.
        The exhibition will take visitors back to the week before VE day when
        this medieval manor house was requisitioned as a transit camp for
        troops. A collection of weapons, including Sherman tanks and artillery,
        may be the largest of is type in Europe for VE Day celebrations.

May 4-9: VE Day Commemorations, Liverpool.
        A week long program of events takes place throughout the Merseyside
        area.

May 5-Sept 24: Trhe Nothe Fort, Weymouth:
        All season there is a special WWII exhibition. The Fort has permanent
        displays featuring military, naval and civilian life in Weymouth during
        WWII.

May 6: The World Choir -- 10,000 Male Voices at Wembley Stadium in Aid of the
       Royal British Legion.
        The World Choir is planning its fourth performance to mark VE day and
        will be donating the procceeds to the Legion.

May 7: Pathe New Gala at the Royal Albert Hall in Aid of the Royal British
       Legion.
        Pathe News is organizing a spectacular along the lines of the "Last
        Night of the Proms" which will feature stars of stage, screen and radio
        based on 1940's film footage.

May 7-21: Festival of Dover 1995.
        Various venues, Dover, Kent. The theme "memories" has been chosen to
        reflect the 50th anniversary of VE Day and subsequently the festival
        will adopt a 1940's style in presenting a varied program. Events planned
        include a dinner dance featuring a 40's style big band plus a special
        guest to commemerate VE day. Also gala night, fashion show, blitz
        evening. Events daily.

May-August: VE/VJ Day Festival.
        There will be talks, lectures, a film season, cookery demonstrations,
        music and dance,fashion shows, children's workshops, etc. The Imperial
        War Museum.

May-Sept.: Exhibition: 50th Anniversary of the End of WWII.
        Dover Museum, Dover, Kent.

May 8: VE Celebration and Flying Display.
        Museum of Army Flying, Middle Wallop, Hampshire.

May 8: The Royal British Legion-Celebrating 50 Years of Freedom.
        The Royal British Legion is planning to set up beacons and bonfires
        througout the UK and Europe, to be fired as a signal of peace, the theme
        of the event is "Lightup a Beacon in Europe".

May 8: National Trust Centenary.
        VE Day Photographic Exhibition. Lanhydrock House, Bodmin, Cornwall.

May 8: VE Day Celebrations, Plymouth.
        Variety of events throughout the day culminating in a fireworks display
        in the evening.

May 8: VE Day Celebrations at the Historic Dockyard, Chatham.
        1940's vehicle rally, marchpast, open-air evenings, 1940's concert with
        the Ray Macvay Band. Grand fireworks display plus(to be confirmed)
        memorial service, flypast and band retreat.

May 27-29: "Victory Show".
        A large cross section of military wartime vehicles made in the 50's and
        60's will be displayed with their equipment, at Southsea Common,
        Portsmouth, Hampshire.

July 12: "The Golden Gala" Evening, Royal Albert Hall, London.
        The historic and prestigious event of music and theater will offer a
        magnificent evening of memorable entertainment, bringing together a
        galaxy of stars from stage, screen, classical and popular music.  The
        evening will end with sevral hours of dancing. It is planned to have the
        show televised both nationally and internationally.

Aug 9-16: VJ Day Events at the Nothe Fort, Weymouth.
        Events include a Matchstick Fleet Exhibition, amateur radio broadcast
        to WWII Veterans Service and British Legion Parade of Standards and
        Remembrance Service.

Aug 12-13: Popham National Air Festival. Breamore, Hampshire.
        The events will include a celebration military convoy, a large street
        party, concerts, and a mass ascent of hot air baloons.

Aug 19-20: The sacrifice of war time civilians and veterans will be commemorated
        on August 19 and 20. There will be a government-sponsored parade in
        Westminster, a service in Hyde Park and services in other parts of the
        country. The parade will be the basis of "Tribute and Promise" which
        will raise awareness of the needs of the wartime generation.

Aug 19: End of WWII Commerations-"Tribute and Promise" Royal British Legion.
        It is planned to hold a service of Thanksgiving in Hyde Park to pay
        tribute to the wartime generation. Following this there will be a parade
        of ex-servicemen and women and civilians of that generation. In the
        afternoon there will be events in Hyde park including a drivepast of
        floats and military vehicles of the era, including a flypast.

Aug 20: VJ Day Commemorations.
        The city of Plymouth remembers the end of the War in the Pacific and
        WWII.

Sept. 3: Drumhead Service.
        Royal Navy Memorial, Southsea Common, Portsmouth, Hampshire. Flypast
        by Fleet Air Arm, Historic Flight.

Sept 19-26: GI Brides Reunion.
        Perth, Scotland.

Kevin Kamphaus
Electronic Systems Support Specialist.
G.E. Aircraft Engines
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 10:01:06 PDT
From:    Ray Downes <rkd@PARSIFAL.NANDO.NET>
Subject: VET: Los ALamos S.E.D reunion?

Hello all -

I'm tring to find out if there's to be a Los Alamos S.E.D (Special Engineering
Detachment) 50th reunion, perhaps at Los Alamos or at the Trinity Site
(which I've heard will be open July 16 (5:00am till 11:00am)).

Aside, there's an interesting S.E.D. related WWW page at
http://bang.lanl.gov/video/history/lanl50th/10-29-93.html
__
Ray Downes, rkd@nando.net, (919) 992-3314

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 10:12:21 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Bataan, again.

Thanks, Robert. I don't know what else to say. Freedom is still the only
way to go, IMHO. One curious note,...

They seemed to have been rewarded for their patrotism/spirit in singing
God Bless America,... 'Gives one a curious glimpse into the Japanese
value system. A man who commands dignity is respected.

Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 15:05:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: What If?

Kelvin Luther speculated:

  >         Finally I wonder if a protracted war would have in the end
  > precipitated a nuclear exchange.  The German A-bomb project was set back
  > by a miscalculation with regards to the efficiency of graphite in
  > controlling fission.  The Germans turned to heavy water which they were
  > unabable to produce enough of.  Once the miscalculation was discovered
  > they were back on track.  The most important point I am interested in
  > hearing views on is what use the U.S. could have or would have made of
  > the A-bomb vs. two major enemies not yet at the verge of defeat.  Would
  > use of the bomb been postponed until a larger stockpile could have been
  > built up?  Would it have been used to create an armistice?  Would a
  > delay  in its use have allowed the Germans to catch up and if so what
  > implications?  Perhaps a limited exchange and then an armistice?

  Unconditional surrender was the only plausible political goal of a war
against the Nazis, an unprecedentedly vicious regime with an ultimate goal
of depopulation enslavement of the rest of Europe.  (The Holocaust was
merely the beginning--later plans called for razing Moscow and Leningrad,
for example.)  This assumes Hitler alive, of course.
  The Germans were years away from an atomic bomb.  Heisenberg, who
dominated German physics, was sure that a bomb required up to 400 lbs of U-
235, according to his recent biographer. This was far beyond German
capabilities.  By 1945 the Germans had shifted to desultory work on a
reactor, not a bomb.  Anyway, an industrial enterprise of the size of Oak
Ridge or Hanford and related power grid could not have survived allied
bombing; separation plants could not have been dispersed like ordnance
factories. Conversely, the U.S. mobilized a superb team of scientists from
home and abroad.  They pursued both the uranium and plutonium bomb which
matured simultaneously.  The plants that were completely safe from attack.
There would have been nine US bombs, as I recall, by early 1946.
  Would we have used the bomb on Berlin?  You bet we would.  That was the
reason for the program in the first place.

Edward Miller  e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 10:25:22 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

Hello all, I thought I would throw out a new question for the list. A
friend and I were discussing when did the war turn against the
Axis-specifically, when did those in Germany and Japan know, in thier
hearts of hearts, that they could not win this war. Some ideas that we
came up with were after Midway for Japan and December of 1942 for the
Germans. I realize that both Japan and Germany had the capicity (and
will) to fight, but they simply lacked the means to win (spread to thin,
lack of supplies, American industry approaching capicity, etc) Any
feelings from other list members, esp. disagreement? I would love to hear
your arguements for different dates.-thanks-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 08:53:03 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>From:         Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
>Subject:      Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory
>
>Hello all, I thought I would throw out a new question for the list. A
>friend and I were discussing when did the war turn against the
>Axis-specifically, when did those in Germany and Japan know, in thier
>hearts of hearts, that they could not win this war. Some ideas that we
>came up with were after Midway for Japan and December of 1942 for the
>Germans. I realize that both Japan and Germany had the capicity (and
>will) to fight, but they simply lacked the means to win (spread to thin,
>lack of supplies, American industry approaching capicity, etc) Any
>feelings from other list members, esp. disagreement? I would love to hear
>your arguements for different dates.-thanks-Drew
>

Drew,

The Air Force asked Japanese leaders and officials that exact question.
There is a 1946 vintage study in our library that I checked out during
the "Should we invaded Japan discussion" where various Japanese explain
when they knew the war was lost.  I don't recall that many saw Midway as
the point, but I do know that Genda or Fuchida thought it was.  Most of
them knew for an absolute certainty that after Tinian and Siapan all was
lost.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:07:45 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>>Hello all, I thought I would throw out a new question for the list. A
>>friend and I were discussing when did the war turn against the
>>Axis-specifically, when did those in Germany and Japan know, in thier
>>hearts of hearts, that they could not win this war. Some ideas that we
>>came up with were after Midway for Japan and December of 1942 for the
>>Germans. I realize that both Japan and Germany had the capicity (and
>>will) to fight, but they simply lacked the means to win (spread to thin,
>>lack of supplies, American industry approaching capicity, etc) Any
>>feelings from other list members, esp. disagreement? I would love to hear
>>your arguements for different dates.-thanks-Drew
>>
>
>Drew,
>
>The Air Force asked Japanese leaders and officials that exact question.
>There is a 1946 vintage study in our library that I checked out during
>the "Should we invaded Japan discussion" where various Japanese explain
>when they knew the war was lost.  I don't recall that many saw Midway as
>the point, but I do know that Genda or Fuchida thought it was.  Most of
>them knew for an absolute certainty that after Tinian and Siapan all was
>lost.
>

Through the miracle of online systems here are the references.  You can
see what many of the Japanese were thinking from these two books.  (At
least as interpreted by the Army Air Forces)

 AUTHOR       United States. Army Air Forces.
 TITLE        Mission accomplished; interrogations of Japanese industrial,
                military, and civil leaders of World War II.
 PUB INFO     Washington, U.S. Govt. print. off., 1946.
 PHYS DESC    vi, 110 p. 26 x 20 cm.
 SUBJECTS     World War, 1939-1945 --Japan.
              World War, 1939-1945 --Pacific Ocean.
 NOTES        On cover: Prepared by Assistant chief of air staff--intelligence,
                headquarters Army Air Forces.

 AUTHOR       United States Strategic Bombing Survey.
 TITLE        Japan's struggle to end the war. Chairman's office, 1 July 1946.
 PUB INFO     [Washington, U.S. Govt. print. off., 1946]
 PHYS DESC    v, 36 p. incl. tables. 26 x 20 cm.
 SUBJECTS     World War, 1939-1945 --Japan.
              Japan --Politics and government --1912-1945.
 SERIES       United States Strategic Bombing Survey. Reports. Pacific war ; 2.
 NOTES        "Biographies of Japanese leaders": p. 23-36.


John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 11:52:11 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

Thanks for the info-I will try and find these two books in the UA
library. An unrealted question- did Genda have a role in the post-war
Japanese military?-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy      |
Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |
>  AUTHOR       United States. Army Air Forces.
>  TITLE        Mission accomplished; interrogations of Japanese industrial,
>                 military, and civil leaders of World War II.
>  PUB INFO     Washington, U.S. Govt. print. off., 1946.
>  PHYS DESC    vi, 110 p. 26 x 20 cm.
>  SUBJECTS     World War, 1939-1945 --Japan.
>               World War, 1939-1945 --Pacific Ocean.
>  NOTES        On cover: Prepared by Assistant chief of air staff--intelligence,
>                 headquarters Army Air Forces.
>
>  AUTHOR       United States Strategic Bombing Survey.
>  TITLE        Japan's struggle to end the war. Chairman's office, 1 July 1946.
>  PUB INFO     [Washington, U.S. Govt. print. off., 1946]
>  PHYS DESC    v, 36 p. incl. tables. 26 x 20 cm.
>  SUBJECTS     World War, 1939-1945 --Japan.
>               Japan --Politics and government --1912-1945.
>  SERIES       United States Strategic Bombing Survey. Reports. Pacific war ; 2.
>  NOTES        "Biographies of Japanese leaders": p. 23-36.
>
>
> John Riegsecker
> Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
> University of Puget Sound
>
> riegsecker@ups.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 10:58:10 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>From:         Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>Thanks for the info-I will try and find these two books in the UA
>library. An unrealted question- did Genda have a role in the post-war
>Japanese military?-Drew
>

He became a General and Chief of Staff of the Japanese Air Defence
Force.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 11:17:35 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>Hello all, I thought I would throw out a new question for the list. A
>friend and I were discussing when did the war turn against the
>Axis-specifically, when did those in Germany and Japan know, in thier
>hearts of hearts, that they could not win this war. Some ideas that we
>came up with were after Midway for Japan and December of 1942 for the
>Germans. I realize that both Japan and Germany had the capicity (and
>will) to fight, but they simply lacked the means to win (spread to thin,
>lack of supplies, American industry approaching capicity, etc) Any
>feelings from other list members, esp. disagreement? I would love to hear
>your arguements for different dates.-thanks-Drew
>
>
Drew,
I think a lot has to do with "How much they knew" - most Japanese were not
told of the loss of four carriers at Midway, likewise, the average German
was not aware of much beyond what he could personally see. A few high
ranking officials who had access to "the truth" [whatever that is] could
see what was coming. As early as 26 March, '42. Churchill is supposed to
have said "It now seems very likely that we and our Allies cannot lose this
war...except through our own fault" [from WORLD WAR II ALMANAC
1931-1945;pg 209; by Robert Goralski]. I am sure people like Adm Canaris,
Adm Yamamoto and others with both information and clear heads, could see
what was "likely", to use Churchills word.

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 14:55:10 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Intelligence on Tirpitz

Robert T. Moore wrote:

>The British, for obvious
reasons, were most fearful that that ship would get out into the open
seas to threaten convoys, which were vital to their existence.

Goodness, my original message must have been floating around for quite a
while! Anyway, thanks for your reply. I have been trying to find out whether
the Allies had any hard evidence as to *when* the *Tirpitz* might be moved,
and everything I've located so far, including your post, seems to indicate
that they didn't. That's not the answer I was expecting, but it seems to be
the right one.

Thanks again.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 14:55:21 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Aggressive war

Robert T. Moore wrote:

>Accusing some one of waging an agressive war is a term used to label
an agressor who initiates the conflict...

Right. I was having trouble equating the phrase "aggressive war" with the
phrase "war of aggression." I later found an excerpt from the document
defining war crimes for the Nuremburg Tribunal--which, incidentally, never
uses the phrase "aggressive war," but rather defines the crime as "waging a
war of aggression." For some reason, this phrasing makes better sense to me.
I don't know why. Brainlock, maybe.

Thanks.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 14:56:55 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

Julie Jenkins wrote:

>And you go to the library and look at the book and realize that it was
published in the 60s by a Uboat man who survived and think about the
statistic that ended the movie & wonder, how DID he sur-
vive?

It's a little strong to call Lothar-Gunther Buchheim a U-boatman. He was a
naval officer but served aboard submarines primarily as a war correspondent.
Which may also explain in part how he survived--he didn't keep going back out
in the boats patrol after patrol. And the bulk of the experiences from which
he wrote *Das Boot* occurred in late 1941--before the tide had really turned
against the U-boats. (Not to say it wasn't dangerous in '41, only that it got
a lot more so later.)

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 15:15:18 EDT
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Women's WWII Literature

Hello everyone,
 Myself and another colleague are working on a book project concerning
Women's War Literature. I am responsible for the section on WWII and
would like to ask your assistance for names of writers I can include. I
am interested in the following material:
1) Any fictional works  (novels, short stories, poetry)
2) Any nonfiction collections (essays, diaries, letters)
3) Cartoons by women or cartoons that have women caricatures related somehow
   to WWII (So far, I've found some interesting HomeFront cartoons...)
4) Autobiographies/Biographies about or by women regarding WWII
5) Any materials from women war correspondents

In addition, if anyone can provide any additional resources I may consult
to assist me with my search, please send me email at: mhricko@kentvm.kent.edu
                  Thanks...
                            Regards, Mary

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 15:30:53 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>From my reading(though limited) I would say that Midway and Leningrad
were the beginning of theend for the axis.  When tehy realized it is
difficult to say.  From what I understand, HItler didn't know it until
he killed himself at the very end-then again he was not always a great
military man.  I believe taht the JApanese new, but their society, as
you probaply know refuses to lose "face" and they had to continue to
fight to save their own respect.  THis is a terrible way to fight a war
but what can you say, war is war.
I think that you could also argue that the beginning of the end was
when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor instead of invading, as well as
not getting the Aircraft Carriers on 7 December, 1941.  Either of those
occurences could have concievably alterd the Pacific Theatre so much
that the Japanese could have won.  They had to know at that point that
things would not go their way.  I mean how unlucky can you be to have
a USN sub tender stop in the exact cove where you are going to refuel
your recon plane.(this is as I have read in Two of three publications on
Pearl). Of course hindsight is 20-20 but I think I would have felt, an
impending sense of doom if that occured to my first strike element.
Who knows, I could be completely off.
Sincerely, Chris
PS If any of the "factual" stuff I included is wrong, please let me
know, it is important to me.
>Hello all, I thought I would throw out a new question for the list. A
>friend and I were discussing when did the war turn against the
>Axis-specifically, when did those in Germany and Japan know, in thier
>hearts of hearts, that they could not win this war. Some ideas that we
>came up with were after Midway for Japan and December of 1942 for the
>Germans. I realize that both Japan and Germany had the capicity (and
>will) to fight, but they simply lacked the means to win (spread to thin,
>lack of supplies, American industry approaching capicity, etc) Any
>feelings from other list members, esp. disagreement? I would love to hear
>your arguements for different dates.-thanks-Drew
>
>
>Drew Philip Halevy      |
>Grad Student            | Go tell the Spartans, thou who passest by,
>Department of History   | That here obedient to their laws we lie.
>University of Arkansas  |    Simonides c. 556-468 b.c.
>DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU   |

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 16:32:32 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of ...

As I recall some notable Japanese commanders such as Yamamoto knew that in
the long run they could never win a war with the U. S.
Yamamoto somewhat reluctantly agreed to and planned the attack on Pearl
Harbor to buy time for the Japanese to expand in the Pacific then negotiate a
peace giving back some of what they conquered, but  still having gained
considerable territory and resources. Of course the Pearl Harbor attack was
to take place after, very soon after, but still after the declaration of war
was delivered.

 This brings to mind another question for speculation and discussion -- If
the formal declaration of war from the Japanese had  been delivered before
the attack on Pearl Harbor would the U.S. have settled for less than
unconditional surrender?  If so, then the Japanese strategy of conquest and
negotiated peace as described above makes some sense for the Japanese. The
whole thing seems to have blown up in their face when the Pearl Harbor attack
came before the declaration of war.

Ron Charlton

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 17:40:45 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What If?

Several of the topics listed in What If? are covered in some depth in
"Hitler's Mistakes" by Ronald Lewin, Morrow, 1984. This was the last work by
Ronald Lewin, published after his death.

>From the book jacket:
How Hitler divided responsibility among his minions, thereby producing a
system with inbuilt inefficiency.

How Hitler treated the Church, the Jews, and the "lesser breeds without the
law" and subjected them to his tyranny and how the course of the war might
have been if any of these issues had been handled more wisely.

How the German High Command began to fall apart as the once mighty dictator
gradually lost his power of logical reasoning.

Nor does Lewin duck the inevitable question: If Hitler was incompetent, why
did it take the Allies nearly six years to achieve his downfall?

Thanks for the questions. You have forced me to dust off Lewin's book and
read it again.

Ron Charlton

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 17:40:54 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What If?

Oh Boy! You have me going on these What If? questions.

Another book with some interesting ideas. - "Hitler: The Victory That Nearly
Was" by Bruce Quarrie, David & Charles Military Books, 1988.

>From the book jacket again:
"What would have happened if . . . Hitler hadn't invaded Russia and divided
his offence; . . . Malta had been captured; . . . Rommel had been given the
troops he needed for the successful invasion of Africa?' These types of
questions have been asked since the outcome of the Second World War in 1945.

Now, for the first time, this book assesses the situations which could have
affected the course of history had Hitler made the correct decisions. . .
.Alternatives are presented that outline the battle movements and strategies
that would have led to victory had they been followed.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 17:40:56 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What If?

One interesting bit of speculation concerns Hitler not invading Russia when
he did and fully supplying Rommel to enable him to capture the Suez Canal.
>From there German forces could have blocked allied shipping through the
canal, moved into the rich oilfields of the mid-east and Persian Gulf (there
were militant anti-British groups in Iraq), and then attacked Russia from
both the south and the west. However, Herr Adolf was more concerned with
exterminating what he considered to be Slavic sub-humans rather than winning
the war. Look what happened in the Ukraine where the Germans were hailed as
liberators from communism until the SS death squads were sent in and drove
the Ukraine back into the arms of the Soviets.

One allied general was supposed to have said that Hitler was one of the
allies' greatest assets in winning the war. Don't know if some general really
said it but it sounds good.

Ron Charlton

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 18:14:39 EDT
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-APR-1945

On 02-APR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the British 2nd Army sector, the XII Corps reaches the
Dortmund-Ems canal at Rheine. The VIII Corps continues advancing on
Osnaburck. The XIII Corps takes Munster. In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the
3rd Armoured Division consolidates its positions at Paderborn. The 80th
Division reaches the edge of Kassel. In the 7th Army sector, the XV Corps
is still unsuccessfull in their attacks agains Aschaffenberg.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front captures Mosonmagyarovar.

Italian Front - Operation Roast continues, with the V Corps establishing a
bridgehead west of Comacchio.

Philippines - In the XIV Corps area, the 1st Cavalry Division reaches San
Pablo. On Negros Island the 185th Infantry captures Talisay. Intense
fighting is taking place on Cebu Island on Bolo Ridge.

Okinawa - The advance north is happening easier than anticipated. The 6th
Marine Division occupies the peninsula northwest of Hagushi. Considerable
progress has been made in the east with the 7th Division reaching the east
coast in Nagagusuku Bay, cutting the island in two. On the first day, U.S.
losses have been surprisingly low with 28 dead, 27 missing and 104 wounded.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 15:55:13 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>From:         "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

[...]

>I think that you could also argue that the beginning of the end was
>when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor instead of invading, as well as
>not getting the Aircraft Carriers on 7 December, 1941.  Either of those
>occurences could have concievably alterd the Pacific Theatre so much
>that the Japanese could have won.  They had to know at that point that
>things would not go their way.  I mean how unlucky can you be to have
>a USN sub tender stop in the exact cove where you are going to refuel
>your recon plane.(this is as I have read in Two of three publications on
>Pearl). Of course hindsight is 20-20 but I think I would have felt, an
>impending sense of doom if that occured to my first strike element.
>Who knows, I could be completely off.
>Sincerely, Chris
>PS If any of the "factual" stuff I included is wrong, please let me
>know, it is important to me.

The cove was French Frigate Shoals, and I think you have this confused
with Midway, at least I have never heard of this incident regarding
Pearl Harbor.  I'm not sure it was just luck the seaplane tenders
Thorton and Ballard were there.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 18:58:38 -0400
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@UMD5.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII flicks

Speaking of OPEN CITY, I saw a film recently called 'The Scarlet and the
Black'.  It is supposed to be based on a true story of an Irish priest
who worked at the Vatican who sheltered escaped allied PWs and others in
the months before Rome fell.  I thought it was a nice little movie.

Chuck McCormick
chuckm@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 20:01:19 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Hitler's Body

>From my English friend --

there are rumors that the German magazine Der Spiegel will be publishing an ar
ticle confirming that the Russians had Hitler's body but destroyed it.

There was a television program about a year ago(?) speculating on this, but
they couldn't cofirm it at the time.

If I get more on this I will post it.

Ron Charlton

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 20:04:59 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

I'm not sure werew I read it I did, but once again I could be
wrong.  I think that I am confused with  your statement about not
being accidental.  Are you saying that they were there because
the US had previous knowledge of the attack on Pearl.  Also what do
you think about the theory of invasion vs. just bombing.
Thanks fro the not Chris
>>From:         "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory
>
>[...]
>
>>I think that you could also argue that the beginning of the end was
>>when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor instead of invading, as well as
>>not getting the Aircraft Carriers on 7 December, 1941.  Either of those
>>occurences could have concievably alterd the Pacific Theatre so much
>>that the Japanese could have won.  They had to know at that point that
>>things would not go their way.  I mean how unlucky can you be to have
>>a USN sub tender stop in the exact cove where you are going to refuel
>>your recon plane.(this is as I have read in Two of three publications on
>>Pearl). Of course hindsight is 20-20 but I think I would have felt, an
>>impending sense of doom if that occured to my first strike element.
>>Who knows, I could be completely off.
>>Sincerely, Chris
>>PS If any of the "factual" stuff I included is wrong, please let me
>>know, it is important to me.
>
>The cove was French Frigate Shoals, and I think you have this confused
>with Midway, at least I have never heard of this incident regarding
>Pearl Harbor.  I'm not sure it was just luck the seaplane tenders
>Thorton and Ballard were there.
>
>John Riegsecker
>Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
>University of Puget Sound
>
>riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 17:25:41 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>The cove was French Frigate Shoals, and I think you have this confused
>with Midway, at least I have never heard of this incident regarding
>Pearl Harbor.  I'm not sure it was just luck the seaplane tenders
>Thorton and Ballard were there.
>
John,
I think you are correct, and it *was not* luck, it was MAGIC... as in the
US ability to read Japanese codes to varying extents, that put the AVDs
there.

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 01:10:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance

  Everyone's confused about French Frigate Shoals.  It was an uninhabited
atoll with barely a few acres of dry land, located about 700 miles northwest
of Pearl Harbor (about midway to Midway).  It played no role whatsoever in
the December 7 attack.
  In March 1942 the Japanese sent a tanker submarine to the Shoals. Two
Emily long-range flying boats flew in from the Marshall Islands, refueled
from the sub, bombed Oahu at night, and returned to the Marshalls nonstop.
The bombs fell harmlessly into an extinct volcano crater.  This tipped off
the Americans.
  Japan next planned a similar reconn of Pearl Harbor on the eve of the
Midway operation about the end of May 1942.  Through ultra and the prior
experience the US became aware.  It sent a seaplane tender and landed some
marines at the Shoals. The Japanese sub hung around a couple of days,
reported their presence, and then left. The reconnaissance was aborted. Too
bad for Japan, because the flying boats would have seen Pearl Harbor empty.
The US carriers had already sailed for Midway.
  Incidentally, at the time a big problem was that US fighter planes lacked
the range to fly 1,000 miles from Pearl to Midway. After the Battle the navy
sent a dredge to French Frigate Shoals.  In a few months an islet big enough
for a fighter strip was created from lagoon-bottom sand.  From the air the
rectangular islet looked just like a carrier.  However, about that time some
bright individual invented the belly tank so fighters no longer needed the
intermediate landing.
  I believe the Shoals were maintained as a Coast Guard loran or weather
station long after the war.  It was a dangerous place in storms.

Edward Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 18:23:33 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

>From:         "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
>Subject:      Re[2]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory
>
>I'm not sure werew I read it I did, but once again I could be
>wrong.  I think that I am confused with  your statement about not
>being accidental.  Are you saying that they were there because
>the US had previous knowledge of the attack on Pearl.  Also what do
>you think about the theory of invasion vs. just bombing.
>Thanks fro the not Chris

Chris,

If you review your sources, I think you will find it was Midway, not
Pearl,  We did know about Midway prior to the event.  As another person
on the list posted, it may have been MAGIC rather than LUCK, as we were
able to read some of the Japanese ciphers and codes.  As for invasion
vs. bombing, I'm not much for what if, but it's one thing to bomb,
another to invade, and something more to keep your troops there and
supplied.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 01:10:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance

Ron Charlton suggests:

  > If the formal declaration of war from the Japanese had  been delivered
  > before the attack on Pearl Harbor would the U.S. have settled for less
  > than  unconditional surrender?  If so, then the Japanese strategy of
  > conquest and  negotiated peace as described above makes some sense for
  > the Japanese. The  whole thing seems to have blown up in their face when
  > the Pearl Harbor attack  came before the declaration of war.

An hour or so of warning, as Japan intended to deliver through its
ambassadors in Washington, wouldn't have softened US rage.  The task force
sailed on November 28th.  Crossing into the eastern Pacific on December 3rd
was an act of war.  Unless Japan declared war several days in before the 7th
it would still have been percieved as launching an assault in peacetime
while we continued to negotiate.  Only a victory by an alerted US fleet
would have removed the stigma and perhaps allowed am end-game softer than
unconditional surrender.

Edward Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 09:33:39 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <phgpi@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

>I was wondering if anyone could help with suggested materials for a paper
>I'm working on now.  It's about the Polish forces which managed to escape
>to Britain during the war and fight again for the Allies.  I'm trying to
>gather enough materials to concentrate entirely on the Poles who joined the
>RAF.  I'm also going to Europe in June, and would be interested in museums
>or records storage facilities anyone could suggest that I may visit to do
>research.  Unfortunately, I don't know Polish so any works will have to be
>in English.
>
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Micheal Whitaker
>MWHITAKE@UTKVX.UTK.EDU
>

I have done some research in this area.

A good start is the ;

        POLISH AIR FORCE ASSOCIATION IN GREAT BRITAIN
        14 Collingham Gardens
        LONDON SW5 0HT

I have some other sources if you wish to contact me direct.

Tracing individuals can be a problem because names were changed to protect
families still in Poland.

George.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Piszczuk                          Email: PHGPI@cc.newcastle.edu.au
  University of Newcastle                  Phone: (049) 215440
  Australia                                Fax  : (049) 216907
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Apr 1995 20:51:55 -0700
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #9

INSTALLMENT NINE IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
4/2/95


January 25, 1945. (Night)
--------------------------

Imperial Japanese Army Battalion Commander Oyabu marches out of
Cabanatuan City with 800 men for a 25-mile journey to San Jose with
orders to engage the advancing Americans at that town. However, after
reaching the town, he receives new orders to return to Cabanatuan City,
but, to use a safer route to the east. Oyabu is a veteran of Japan's war
in China. - A realistic older soldier with concern for his troops who
are all newly arrived replacements lacking combat experience.


--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Apr 1995 to 2 Apr 1995
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 49 messages totalling 2556 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Military collections (2)
  2. Museums and collectors...a long reply. (2)
  3. Das Boot (6)
  4. Great WWII movies
  5. GEN: Bataan, again.
  6. Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain. (2)
  7. Hitler's Body (2)
  8. INF: USN Chronology 04-03-95
  9. WWII flicks
 10. INF: Search service for discharged service personnel
 11. INF: USN Chronology 04-02-95 (2)
 12. MacArthur/Philippines (2)
 13. Women's WWII Literature
 14. RE WEAP WW2 Rifles
 15. WWII Movies (3)
 16. Confirmation of Subscription
 17. WW2 Rifles
 18. Accidental Shootings
 19. Tactics (?) Assurance (2)
 20. WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule (3)
 21. Re[4]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory
 22. What If?
 23. WWII-Navy USS JUNEAU (CL-52)
 24. OKINAWA  COMMEMORATION
 25. Iwo Jima
 26. WWII Movies -Reply
 27. [INF] USAAF 4 APR 45
 28. History: Enfield Rifles (Long)
 29. Movies: Heimat and Stalingrad (was Re: Das Boot)
 30. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-APR-1945
 31. Inf: Japanese Apology
 32. WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule -Reply
 33. Japanese midget subs at Pearl

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:51:46 +1000
From:    John Foster <phs1a@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Military collections

Hello to All
            On the subject of Military souvenirs and memorabilia etc I have
to agree with Jodi.Museums have fads and as the recent Smithsonian debacle
so do the directors and historians at museums.What is important at one time
may be put into storage later and if finance is a problem then so is
conservation practices.Here in Australia we have a National War Memorial
which I believe is our most visited museeum and or memorial.Much stuff was
stored for this museum from Both world wars in warehouses etc and there were
crates of helmets uniforms etc and 44 gallon droms of Japanese swords to
give ypu the picture.
            Recently we have had several big commemmorations and special
events and are planning more.So where can the armed forces go for advice on
uniforms and actual items to display or to recreate.You would say the
National War Memorial ,right.Wrong! How about the army navy etc and their
various museeums and experts.Wrong!For all this information and supply they
have had to go to private collectors.The museums don't have the info and all
their vast stocks have perished over the years so they are no longer fit to
use or just no longer.
            We have a regional museum and the local council bought a large
military collection to use as a tourist attraction and as a large reserve of
material for the museum.A promised grant was torpedoed my a local politician
who didn't agree with the purchase and used it as a vehicle to discredit
some party rivals for his job and so it was left in storage to rot.Now that
there is a bit of interest about the council is using the opportunity to
disperse the collection on the quite.It is not wanted in the new museum
because the fellow in charge has a different vision and is not "into"
military history.
            What I am trying to say is politics and academics can ruin
everything between them at times. To fellow collectors and local societies I
say bless you all and keep up the good work.After all most museums only have
collections to exhibit because some collector put it together and then
donated it.
Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 00:16:10 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military collections

In message <9504030437.AA20428@umnstat.stat.umn.edu> World War II Discussion
List writes:
> Hello to All
>             On the subject of Military souvenirs and memorabilia etc I have
> to agree with Jodi.Museums have fads and as the recent Smithsonian debacle
> so do the directors and historians at museums.What is important at one time
> may be put into storage later and if finance is a problem then so is
> conservation practices.Here in Australia we have a National War Memorial
> which I believe is our most visited museeum and or memorial.Much stuff was
> stored for this museum from Both world wars in warehouses etc and there were
> crates of helmets uniforms etc and 44 gallon droms of Japanese swords to
> give ypu the picture.

Fads?  Museums display what is important at the time or what is important to
present a picture for a project.  The Smithsonian, for all the flap it got
over one (and ONLY one) display, is a superb world-class museum.  They made
some serious mistakes on one major display, but even on that note, every
museum is due a mistake once every hundred years or so...  What's important
is to keep a staff in the museum that _understands_ the importance of history
and ignores "peer presure."

The fact that there are huge sums of artifacts in storage is a good sign.
They are being preserved, even if not on display every moment of every day.

>             Recently we have had several big commemmorations and special
> events and are planning more.So where can the armed forces go for advice on
> uniforms and actual items to display or to recreate.You would say the
> National War Memorial ,right.Wrong! How about the army navy etc and their
> various museeums and experts.Wrong!For all this information and supply they
> have had to go to private collectors.The museums don't have the info and all
> their vast stocks have perished over the years so they are no longer fit to
> use or just no longer.

I would then put those museums on notice, and suggest that you don't use the
experiences of a small numbers of museums to reflect all.

I (and we) have done a LOT of research through museums and the information and
artifacts that are not on display.  Other than SOME (but not all) military
archives, we have never had any difficulty working with museums and the
military.

This isn't meant to slight what we can accomplish through private collectors
and researchers... They tend to often be the best source of information _on
specific issues and topics._  But when I want paperwork, it's usually the
big museums and archives that are best suited to provide them.

Know what is almost always the problem when you can't get very far with
museums, archives or the military?  It's lack of contacts.  You have to build
your contacts and reputation just like any other area.  It is sometimes easier
to work with private collectors, but that doesn't make them better.  You will
also find private collectors who are totally and irreversably un-helpful.
And then you'll get some that are so helpful so as to almost be considered
rash.

>             We have a regional museum and the local council bought a large
> military collection to use as a tourist attraction and as a large reserve of
> material for the museum.A promised grant was torpedoed my a local politician
> who didn't agree with the purchase and used it as a vehicle to discredit
> some party rivals for his job and so it was left in storage to rot.Now that
> there is a bit of interest about the council is using the opportunity to
> disperse the collection on the quite.It is not wanted in the new museum
> because the fellow in charge has a different vision and is not "into"
> military history.

First, it sounds like the "tourist attraction" concept was put together by
people who may have little or no expertise except in tourism.  If that's
the goal, fine... But tourism isn't the primary goal of a museum and should
never be.  If it happens to accomplish its goal and tourism (and that is NOT
hard to do), then super.

But if you have a museum director that controls the direction of the museum
because of his personal beliefs, then the museum BOARD needs to get some
teeth.  If the display is directed by a board of tourism, then it's no longer
a museum.

IMHO.

BTW:  Local support is, of course, very important.  If the museum can find
a way to include the local community in the funding of the museum, then the
museum is going to do a better job.  Keep in mind that the BASIC goal of the
museum is totally compatible with the basic goal of the local politicians:

The politicians want the museum to bring a lot of people into the community
to visit the museum.  The museum wants to bring a lot of people into the
community to visit the museum.  When museum attendance is high and grows,
the museum benefits.  When museum attendance is high and grows, the community
benefits.  The more the museum and community benefits, the more the museum
can collect, preserve and EXPAND to display more.

That's why MOST communities that support local museums stay OUT of the
direction of the museum.  Let the museum do what it does, does best and
quit messing with it.  As a success, everyone wins.

>             What I am trying to say is politics and academics can ruin
> everything between them at times. To fellow collectors and local societies I
> say bless you all and keep up the good work.After all most museums only have
> collections to exhibit because some collector put it together and then
> donated it.

When politics ruin a museum or display, it is almost always internal politics.
Clearly the thought of the Smithsonian is the example here.  The politics were
internal, not pressured from outside political influence.

There are good and bad in both cases.  What I object to is auctioning off
historically very important artifacts, because they almost always go to
private collectors and very often, though not always, end up not available
to the public or at least not available to the masses.  Museums exist to make
as much as possible available to the public.  Private collectors exist for the
full spectrum of reasons.  Those that place their collections on display are
to be commended.  Those that collect important artifacts to be stored in a
vault for investment reasons drive me nuts.

Local historical societies are very important, but their primary goal is to
preserve _local_ history -- a VERY important goal, because that's the thread
that makes all collections work.  We work a lot with the local and state
historical societies to get the information that is needed as well as to
supplement their details of local personalities and events.

But your opinion of museums, how they come into existence and/or why they
exist is entirely off base.  Most museums struggle for YEARS to collect
artifacts of importance.  Sure, almost all of it is donated, but it is almost
always one piece at a time.  Museums RARELY obtain entire collections.  When
you do get a complete collection, it's like a Christmas you've never seen
before.  Most museums rarely, if ever, experience that.  It also tends to
ignore that nearly all museums lend their artifacts to other museums.  Perhaps
your local museum has 10,000 pieces related to WWII that you can't see.  But
you may not realize that 500 of them are on display in Boston and next year,
another 1,000 are being loaned to a museum in France.  When I visit a museum
and see a display that says "Courtesy Museum of London," I am very grateful
to the Museum of London.  When I see "Courtesy collection of Mrs. Smith," I
am equally grateful to Mrs. Smith.

When museums go bad, they need to be fixed -- but they usually CAN be fixed.
When private collectors go bad, you can't do a thing about it.

So yes... To the collectors who are in it for the right reasons, God bless.
But I can't understand the castigation of museums.  That's the infastructure
that puts things in circulation.  But like a living body, the arteries are
just as important in the long run as the capillaries and the major organs.

/bob -- speaking as a minor player in the American Airpower Heritage Museum
and one of the major players in the development of a major aviation museum
in Minnesota.


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 02:26:05 -0400
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: Museums and collectors...a long reply.

Doug I have sent this to you direct 'cause it is so long but I have posted it
to the list as well. I can't say that I agree at all with your line of logic.
I will take the points one by one and offer my views on the subject a little
more clearly.

< Consider where museums come from. Some are publicly funded but many < are
private collections in which the collector has incorporated as a non-
       < profit corporation and opened his collection to the public.

Almost all museums get at least some of their funding from government grant
be they state, local, or federal. As soon as a collector incorporates as a
non-profit there are strict rules that they must abide by. One of those is
that they must have a board of directors. Establishing a board effectively
takes control away from the individual and puts it in the hands of the board
and the museum director. It therefore is not really the collectors collection
anymore. To go even further, the museum may one day wish to join the American
Association of Museums (AAM) and this accreditation process is a long,
arduous process. The surveyors will look long and hard at how the museum
stores, cares, and handles their artifacts and how the collections policy and
mission statement of the museum coincide with the board members and original
collector.

< I have also read of museums selling items to collectors to raise revenue.

This does happen. Mostly in the art museum community. Art museums routinely
buy and sell works that they need to complete a collection. The history
museums try to avoid this situation because of the negative PR it can cause.
museums are looked upon as the keeper of the culture and selling artifacts
usually does not go over too well with the public. trades between museums are
quite common though. In extreme cases museums may sell artifacts but then the
money is only used to help with the upkeep of the collections.

< Museums seek out items that are rare and valuable.

Museums do not seek out only rare and valuable items. Ninety percent of a
museums collection is made up of the mundane and inexpensive. A museum has a
mission statement that guides it in its collections acquisitions. this
statement allows the museum to collect a different number of items and they
can range from a Monet painting to a 1936 washing machine. What a museum
collects is dependent upon what area of history it is trying to educate the
public about.

< Often the value is based on what a collector will pay for that particular
item.

This is true no matter what area of the world you are in. Gas, oil,
furniture, art, etc. is all driven by the same theory.

< There is no guarantee that items will be safely preserved. For example, the
< Collier Aircraft Museum in south Florida was literally destroyed by
              < hurricane Andrew.

There is also no guarantee that the hurricane Andrew would not have hit a
private collectors hangers either. The point is that museums are infinitely
better equipped to care for their collections that the average collector.
Conservation supplies are very expensive, professional conservation is even
more expensive than the supplies. The collections in most museums are stored
in temperature and humidity controlled environments where they are monitored
constantly to check on their conditions. Insects, ultraviolet light, acid
migration, etc. is all kept at a minimum and the collections are housed in
acid free boxes on acid free paper in rooms with metal shelving to eliminate
off-gassing from wood shelving units or plastic bags. How many collectors do
you know that can give their collections that kind of 'round the clock care?

< Obviously there are items stored in museums that may never be seen by the
  < public.

That is a true statement. On the other hand there are things in museums that
most people would not really care to see. Museums are filled with items that
may in some way relate to their mission statement but may have little
interest for the general public. In a way the museum decides what aspect of
history it will teach its visitors through the artifacts it displays and how
it interprets them. For better or worse, museums have become the keeper of
our culture.

< I believe that many museum curators are also collectors.

You might be surprised at how low that number really is. For ethical and
moral purposes curators, directors, etc. try not to collect when they get
into the business. Strictly taboo is collecting the same artifacts that the
museum collects. For example, I would not collect brown Moosehead bottles if
the museum I worked for was a collector of the same bottles. The possibility
of the public getting the wrong idea is too much trouble for the museum to
risk. If I bought items at an auction and the public saw me there and knew I
was the local museum director their immediate thoughts would be that I was
buying for myself. A problem I don't want. If no visitors come to my museum I
gotta shut the doors.

< Without collectors, there would be far fewer museums and far less interest
< in militaria.

There I think you are way off base. Without collectors there would be larger
museum collections. Now that the collectors have put a price on artifacts the
museums are getting fewer donations because people would rather make a buck
than donate an item to a museum.

I would like think that someday the collectors would not look upon the museum
as the enemy. We are here to keep the past from disappearing and let the
public come view and study it for as long as we can keep an item from
deteriorating. Think about that the next time you see a new moth hole in your
Wehrmacht tunic or the paper begins to turn brown in the letters from your
Civil War great-grandfather.

Yours in museology,
Matthew Burchette

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 09:28:48 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

>I don't think Germany has produced a single film that addresses what WII
>was about from the German point of view.  The hard German films are about
>the 30s--how we seem to have gotten into some kind of mess--or are all
>Fassbinder epics about how corrupt we are because of that mess & because we
>sold our soul to the US.

I can recommend Edgar Reisz's epic 'Heimat'. OK, its 16hours and sub-titled
but it certainly gives a feeling for 'ordinary' Germans and their attitudes
towards nazism and the war.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 09:34:22 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Great WWII movies

>Cris, there was a US ensign aboard the Catalina, but it was flown by a
>British pilot.
>
>Ed
>
Ed, I'm 2,000km from my library and my memory isn't what it was but I
thought that there were 3US and 2 British aboard?

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 09:45:25 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

>But I do agree 1936-1949, especially home-front/family/community stuff, is
a fertile period for
>some fresh German film making.
>
>-- Jim Brady
>
Again, I do recommend 'Heimat'. It covers 1920 to 1982 and chronicles the
lives of a small German village in the Hunsruck - between the Rhine and the
Moselle. Some people embrace nazism, some drift into it, a few even oppose
it; most are indifferent. It is important to remember that this was Germany
at the time : mostly small villages where people knew very little of the
outside world. Members of my family who were living in Germany pre-1932-ish
claim that it is very authentic. Well worth the 16 hours. I seem to recall
that it was on Ch12 (PBS) in Philadelphia ca. 1988. I've never seen it on video.
Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 02:15:46 -0500
From:    "Jeffrey R. Keopp" <keopp@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Bataan, again.

Hi!  I am the Jeff referred to in Bob's posting and will just add a
few comments.  Unfortunately, I also did not take any notes and now
wish I had.
>
[text cut]

> However, this evening, we had a guest speaker at our annual Awards Banquet.
> Our planned speaker for the evening couldn't attend and arranged for a last
> minute replacement.  This was in the form of Mr. Philip Brain, currently of
> Edina, MN.  He survived the Bataan Death March and 3.5 years as a Japanese
> POW.  Jeff Keopp, a recent member to the list, was also at the banquet (heck,
> he signed the check that I countersigned :-), so perhaps he has some thoughts
> and recollections to add to this... I didn't take notes and wish I had...
>
[text cut]

> Almost immediately, they were reduced to two meals per day.  At the time of
> surrender, they were down to one meal per day.  He made it clear that most
> people were in no condition to effect a successful fight.  He said that the
> lack of food was taking such a physical toll that if you stood up too fast,
> the instant onset of dizziness would make you collapse.  These were not
> effective combat soldiers.
>
They were only on two meals per day for the first month, then they went
to the single meal for two months.

> The next half hour were the most riveting and difficult things I have listened
> to in a long while...
>
I agree with Bob, this was the most riveting and difficult things I have
listened in a long while.

[text cut]

> Part of the transport included being transported in steel box cars.  They
> were packed so dense that when POWs died en-route, and many did, they couldn't
> fall.  They stayed standing until the doors opened and they were let out at
> their next stop.
>
Phil said they were so tightly packed that you couldn't raise your arms
and the vents in the rail cars were shut.

[text cut]

The estimate he had is that about 10% of the 12,000 men who started the
march didn't make it.

> He spoke of one of three POW ships he was on.  Like the box cars, there was
> no room to sit or lie down.  One bucket left near the gangway was supposed to
> be used as a latrine, but you couldn't get to it.  As prisoners died, their
> bodies were passed overhead, out to the deck and thrown overboard.  Eventually
> enough prisoners died to where they had room to sit down.  By the end of the
> war, he had been on three POW ships.
>
His comment on the POW ships is that he would have preferred to be on
five Death Marches than on the ships.

[text cut]

> Some 2.5 years have now passed and the Allied forces are moving closer and
> closer.  They were now being shipped to Japan.  They knew this was the end
> for them one way or another.  They were told -- if Japan itself were invaded,
> every prisoner would be executed immediately.  Since they had no clue about
> what was to come, the atomic bomb or even the existence of the B-29, they
> really felt their days were numbered.  Japan _would_ be invaded and they
> would be killed.   The only way they would survive -- maybe -- is if Japan
> somehow won this war... And if they were, why were they moving all their
> prisoners to Japan?
>
> He was on the last ship to leave for the home islands that did not get
> attacked by American subs... though they heard nearby depth charge attacks.
>
> The ship that immediately followed them had 1,619 prisoners on board.  It was
> torpedoed.  Those survivors were put on a second ship which was also
> torpedoed.  A third ship was the home for those that survived and was also
> torpedoed.  By this time, 175 of the 1,619 prisoners were still alive.
>
Tom Smothers, father of the Smothers Brothers of folk singing and TV fame,
was killed during one of these torpedo attacks.  Phil had mentioned that
Tom Smothers had organized a 30 man choir in the first POW camp and that
the Japanese occasionally let them sing.  He also mentioned that Tom
had no previous musical background that he knew of.

[text cut]

> and food.  He mentioned that some chutes failed to open.  He also said that
> most of the food went into big vats to make "B-29 Stew."
>
Their meals up til now had been rice.  They would pour water on the rice
to get the dirt to settle to the bottom and rice worms to float.  Phil
said they guaged their protein intake by the number of worms.  He also
mentioned that the water would occassionally be shut off to the POW's
at the first camp in the Phillipines.

> He came home on a hospital ship.  When he got home, his family had no idea
> that he was coming home -- probably wasn't sure he was alive.  When he got
> to the west coast and called home, he found that his mother had had a heart
> attack and died in 1943 and his brother was killed in action in England,
> flying for the Air Corp.  Coming home was painful, but he was home.
>
> Throughout all of this presentation, I watched a few grown men get angry at
> the mistreatment he and others endured ... But mostly, I saw a lot of misty-
> eyed people of all ages.  When he finished, the standing ovation (which is
> fairly rare in our group) was immediate, honest and substantial.  The silence
> which followed was almost as painful.  Nobody knew what to say or do, so a
> brief recess was called which allowed a Pee and Bar break and to catch your
> breath.
>
I am still digesting all of what I heard.  It is hard to conceive enduring
what Mr. Brain has.  He says people in that situation form a thick crust
around themselves for protection.  He is just now talking about his
experience.

> But to come full circle, one can't justify the actions done based on the
> experiences of one man... But while I didn't ask him personally whether he
> felt -- at the time the orders were given -- that the surrender order was
> proper, he presented a picture that made it unquestionable that there was
> no alternatives.  They were beaten, hungry and had no hope.
>
> Was the order right or wrong?  The slaughter that followed is just plain, true
> and complete brutality and crimes beyond belief.  But I was left with the
> feeling that based on what was believed to be reality and what the true
> situation was of the man in the field, surrender was the proper course of
> action.  They had already met their objectives -- the bottle up enough
> Japanese forces to screw up their schedule and the supplies made it impossible
> to even feed their own troops adequately enough to keep them all _conscious_.
>
> The debate over the order will probably continue forever.  But before an
> order or decision is condemned, I've always felt it important to listen to
> the stories of those that were there.  I've met very few and listened to the
> story of only one.  But while in the past I've refused to make decision as
> to right or wrong, now I'm forced to acknowledge the decision as being the
> right one -- if all was as it was supposed to be.
>
I agree with Bob.

> (He also recalled the statement of one of the guards who said "We will beat
> America, even if it takes 100 years!"  He made the comment that sometimes he
> feels that after 50 years, they're halfway there... :-)
>
> All I know for certain at this point is that we need to get this guy's story
> on tape... Most incredible TRUE story of survival I've ever heard.  And the
> debate over Bataan continues -- and for this guy, in Japan as a POW, the
> debate over the atom bomb is just as close to the heart.  Atom bomb meant
> the POWs survived at went home.  Invasion meant that the POWs were executed.
> The atom bomb saved his life after all he had been through and survived, it
> probably boiled down to that one sequence of events.
>
> [I'm actually kinda glad our speaker-of-choice couldn't make it -- very
> heavy stuff for an awards banquet, but YOW...]
>
I was glad that Phil was able to talk to us about his experience.  I have
a somewhat personal interest in this part of history.  Recently, I learned
that my family had lost a cousin on the Death March.

I'm also keeping track of the related Bataan postings on the list.  Thanks
to all who are contributing!

Jeff Keopp
Confederate Air Force
Southern Minnesota Wing
keopp@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
KA0HRT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:18:13 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

>I was wondering if anyone could help with suggested materials for a paper
>I'm working on now.  It's about the Polish forces which managed to escape
>to Britain during the war and fight again for the Allies.  I'm trying to
>gather enough materials to concentrate entirely on the Poles who joined the
>RAF.  I'm also going to Europe in June, and would be interested in museums
>or records storage facilities anyone could suggest that I may visit to do
>research.  Unfortunately, I don't know Polish so any works will have to be
>in English.
>
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Micheal Whitaker
>MWHITAKE@UTKVX.UTK.EDU
>
You could try:

1. The Imperial War Museum, London. Always very helpful.
2. 'After the Battle' magazine, London. They've published several articles
on this topic.
3. The Battle of Britain museum.
4. The Polish embassy, Military Attache's dept.
5. The Polish 'White Eagle Club' - ex-servicemen, branches everywhere.
6. The mad Pole who runs the cafe-cum-used-book-shop on Ely railroad station.
7. The Polish war cemetry, located somewhere near Newark, in Sherwood Forest.
8. My mother.

Best of luck.
Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:10:58 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Body

>>From my English friend --
>
>there are rumors that the German magazine Der Spiegel will be publishing an ar
>ticle confirming that the Russians had Hitler's body but destroyed it.
>
>There was a television program about a year ago(?) speculating on this, but
>they couldn't cofirm it at the time.
>
>If I get more on this I will post it.
>
>Ron Charlton
>
The British magazine 'After the Battle' did a fairly comprehensive review of
the subject about two years ago. The Russians did have the body; they
destroyed most of it; part of the skull survives.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 04:00:13 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-03-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/03 Tue.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             Motor minesweeper YMS-71, by mine, off Borneo,
              04 d. 59'N,, 119 d. 47'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa area:
             Escort carrier WAKE ISLAND (CVE-65), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 05'N., 128 d. 57'E.
             Destroyer SPROSTON (DD-577), by dive bomber,
              26 d. 30'N.,127 d. 57'E.
             High-speed minesweeper HAMBLETON (DMS-20),
              by suicide plane,
              27 d. 00'N., 127 d. 00'E.
             LST 554, by storm,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
            German submarines sunk:
             U-1221, U-2542, U-3505, by Army aircraft, Kiel, Germany.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:37:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII flicks

 >Speaking of OPEN CITY, I saw a film recently called 'The Scarlet and the
 >Black'.  It is supposed to be based on a true story of an Irish priest
 >who worked at the Vatican who sheltered escaped allied PWs and others in
 >the months before Rome fell.  I thought it was a nice little movie.
 >
 >Chuck McCormick
 >chuckm@umd5.umd.edu

THE SCARLET AND THE BLACK is a film made for US TV and released in 1983.  It
starred Gregory Peck, Christopher Plummer, John Gielgud, Raf Vallone, Barbara
Bouchet, Olga Karlatos, Bill Berger, and Edmund Purdom.  Leonard Maltin, in
his MOVIE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1994, says "Peck (in his first dramatic starring
role on TV) and Plummer play a real-life cat-and-mouse game, as respectively,
a Vatican official who clandestinely harbored allied POW escapees throughout
German-occupied Rome and the Nazi officer trying to catch him red-handed.
Gielgud is Pope Pius XII in this well-made thriller, adapted by David Butler
from J.P. Gallagher's book THE SCARLET PIMPERNEL OF THE VATICAN."

If I remember it correctly, the character Peck is playing is told that if he
leaves the Vatican grounds he will be shot and there is one scene where a
German soldier has a rifle with scope on him as he approaches the boundry
between the Vatican and Rome.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:40:21 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Search service for discharged service personnel

Hello, Jim!

Thank you very much for the address. I will write Sgt. Ratzel
forthwith.

Hope all is well, and please stay in touch.

All the best, and thanks again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:14:08 +0200
From:    Robert Martensson <Robert.Martensson@NEXUS.SE>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 04-02-95

>             Attack transport CHILTON (APA-38), by suicide plane,
>              Okinawa area,
>              25 d. 59'N., 127 d. 17'E.

>             Attack cargo ship LACERTA (AKA-29),
>              accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
>              Okinawa area,
>              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 43'E.


What kind of ship was the Attack Transport (APA) and
Attack Cargo (AKA) ships?

        Thanks for any information

        Robert Maartensson
        robert@nexus.se

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 08:35:47 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Museums and collectors...a long reply.

I know we've left the purvue of the list charter here, unfortunately...
Therefore, I'll shut up immediately following, before inflicting the wrath
of Joe...  :-)

> < Consider where museums come from. Some are publicly funded but many < are
> private collections in which the collector has incorporated as a non-
>        < profit corporation and opened his collection to the public.
>
> Almost all museums get at least some of their funding from government grant
> be they state, local, or federal. As soon as a collector incorporates as a
> non-profit there are strict rules that they must abide by. One of those is
> that they must have a board of directors. Establishing a board effectively
> takes control away from the individual and puts it in the hands of the board

The board of directors also must, in nearly every case, be elected officers
who serve one or two year terms.  Many organizations also put term limits on
some or all of their officers (unlike Congress... :-)

> and the museum director. It therefore is not really the collectors collection
> anymore. To go even further, the museum may one day wish to join the American
> Association of Museums (AAM) and this accreditation process is a long,
> arduous process. The surveyors will look long and hard at how the museum
> stores, cares, and handles their artifacts and how the collections policy and
> mission statement of the museum coincide with the board members and original
> collector.

The AAM process is indeed arduous.  Once you have actually met every detail
and requirement for accreditation, the paperwork will take approximately 18
months to be completed by the AAM.  During this time, you must have already
met 100% of the accretitation requirements and you _will_ be scrutinized to
make sure that you maintain it during the review process.  Following final
accreditation, you will be routinely inspected -- both with and without
warning -- to verify your status and that you are maintaining all proper
requirements.  If you fail, your accreditation will be removed and you may be
forced to start the process over again.

Accreditation is critically important to inter-museum loan, acquisition of
artifacts _and_ local and state financial support.

>
> < I have also read of museums selling items to collectors to raise revenue.
>
> This does happen. Mostly in the art museum community. Art museums routinely
> buy and sell works that they need to complete a collection. The history
> museums try to avoid this situation because of the negative PR it can cause.
> museums are looked upon as the keeper of the culture and selling artifacts
> usually does not go over too well with the public. trades between museums are
> quite common though. In extreme cases museums may sell artifacts but then the
> money is only used to help with the upkeep of the collections.

The sale of artifacts is one of the most painful decisions any museum makes.
Just about every museum goes through it at one time or another and they
absolutely HATE doing it.  I've never met a museum, however, where the sale
of artifacts was done purely for the financial gain.

>
> < Museums seek out items that are rare and valuable.
>
> Museums do not seek out only rare and valuable items. Ninety percent of a
> museums collection is made up of the mundane and inexpensive. A museum has a

90% is probably a low number.  It's the mundane and inexpensive that tells
a story.  Lay out a mess kit or a complete footlocker and a real story is
told.  In Midland, we have a display where an aviators survival gear is
spread out on a "beach" so you can see every item that one person would
normally carry on a mission.  Almost none of these things are "rare and
valuable" yet they are important historically and tell a real story.

Yet the rare and valuable are important as well.  First printings of certain
books, a very rare radio, parts of uniforms from notable people, etc... All
these things can center-piece important displays -- but even here, every other
piece falls into the category of "mundane and inexpensive."

> < Often the value is based on what a collector will pay for that particular
> item.
>
> This is true no matter what area of the world you are in. Gas, oil,
> furniture, art, etc. is all driven by the same theory.

And is often what keeps many artifacts out of circulation.  Museums (the
structure that displays and loans artifacts) rarely can afford to acquire
certain important pieces.  All one has to do is watch CNN semi-religiously,
and you'll see stories about _another_ Picasso being sold at auction from
one collector to another.  This is probably your only time to ever see that
painting.  It's almost guaranteed that it will never make its way to the
Minneapolis Museum of Art's three month exhibit on the Picasso masterpieces.

>
> < There is no guarantee that items will be safely preserved. For example, the
> < Collier Aircraft Museum in south Florida was literally destroyed by
>               < hurricane Andrew.
>
> There is also no guarantee that the hurricane Andrew would not have hit a
> private collectors hangers either. The point is that museums are infinitely

For example, Kermit Weeks' Air Museum which was severely damaged in Florida.

> better equipped to care for their collections that the average collector.
> Conservation supplies are very expensive, professional conservation is even
> more expensive than the supplies. The collections in most museums are stored
> in temperature and humidity controlled environments where they are monitored
> constantly to check on their conditions. Insects, ultraviolet light, acid

Ouch, ouch, ouch.  All one has to do is price UV protectant glass and plastic
sleeves for lighting (yes, interior lighting has to be UV protected!) and you
will see where most of the museum's money goes.

And there is no debate over these practices.  You do it, or you lose your
accreditation.  You lose your accreditation, and you can lose your ability
to collect artifact, lose funding, lose support...

> < Obviously there are items stored in museums that may never be seen by the
>   < public.
>
> That is a true statement. On the other hand there are things in museums that
> most people would not really care to see. Museums are filled with items that
> may in some way relate to their mission statement but may have little
> interest for the general public. In a way the museum decides what aspect of
> history it will teach its visitors through the artifacts it displays and how
> it interprets them. For better or worse, museums have become the keeper of
> our culture.

Many times museums contain multiple copies of the same artifact.  We're
fortunate now that our vehicle collection is increasing.  Two years ago, we
had a very early 1941 Willy's jeep.  That has been joined by a 1943 Willy's
jeep and a 1942 Ford jeep.

Technically, only one example needs to be on display, and with three, we can
take the time to totally rebuild and restore one and put it on rotation or
out on loan.  But, we've chosen to put all three on display when possible,
as it shows the evolution and functional differences of the jeeps from year
to year and manufacturer to manufacturer, subtle though they may be.  Did you
know that the grill on the Willy's jeep changed after the first several hundred
were built?  I didn't, but do now...

> < Without collectors, there would be far fewer museums and far less interest
> < in militaria.
>
> There I think you are way off base. Without collectors there would be larger
> museum collections. Now that the collectors have put a price on artifacts the
> museums are getting fewer donations because people would rather make a buck
> than donate an item to a museum.

A very recent example is an artifact that we are trying to authenticate at the
moment.  It doesn't fit into our narrow profile, but does fit into our overall
view of the museum.  This is an artifact that came into the possession of a
person who until now couldn't be considered a collector, but more of an
interested party.

This is a small framed display dated 1903.  Contained within was a copy of a
telegram sent to a local group announcing the successful first flight of the
Wright Flyer, a hand drawn technical sketch (complete with errors and
corrections) of the Flyer and a page from what is claimed to be Wilbur
Wright's diary in his own handwriting.  The age is clearly quite old.  The
original display was put together in such a way that it's obvious the pieces
were not considered important but not _that_ important at the time.  The glue
used to affix the papers shows the age, as well as the materials.  Whether
any of it is authentic is a question, but the age isn't debateable and the
fact that there are hand written originals within makes the job of verification
at least a bit easier.  This was rescued from -- guess: A collection that was
literally being THROWN OUT by a party who inherited it and (1) didn't know what
they may have had and (2) didn't have any interest in it.

But, as a private collector, the individual's goal is to sell the artifact for
its cash value if it turns out to be authentic.  Until then, it is on loan to
us.  Of course, although the individual has made it clear that a cash
contribution to us will be made from the sale, we would still rather have the
artifact than the cash.   But we have no control over the disposition of the
artifact and had he not been  in the right place at the right time, no one
would ever have seen it again.

Authentic or not, it's an interesting study.

I know of another case where a soldier on the Phillippines, was one of the
first to arrive at a (recently) abandoned airfield.  The Japanese had
disposed of much of their personal items and "blended" into the population,
which made the Allied soldiers rather nervous.  This person, however, found
two, complete, perfect condition Japanese flight suits with all the gear
that goes with it.  He managed to keep them and get them home.  One fit him
perfectly and the other fit his wife perfectly.  For _years_ they wore them
to Halloween parties.  When his first wife passed away, he boxed up lots of
things, including the flight suits for storage.  His second wife, wanting to
make a home with her personality involved, did a major housecleaning which
included, without anyone realizing it, the box of flight suits and other WWII
memorabilia being tossed out on the curb to be picked up the sanitation
trucks.

I can give you countless examples of where original photos, medals and other
gear has been tossed out by surviving family members or even family members
thinking they are doing you a favor.

When we talk about "collectors" we have to realize that most "collectors" are
not like us -- those that protect and understand the value of the pieces we
may have.  They are the average person who may have kept some things of
sentimental value from their experiences or picked them up somewhere along the
line.  Many don't realize the value of what they have or don't feel that their
own stories are important.  And so, those items are at risk every day from the
409 Squadron.

>
> I would like think that someday the collectors would not look upon the museum
> as the enemy. We are here to keep the past from disappearing and let the
> public come view and study it for as long as we can keep an item from
> deteriorating. Think about that the next time you see a new moth hole in your
> Wehrmacht tunic or the paper begins to turn brown in the letters from your
> Civil War great-grandfather.

Or you forget to make it clear in the will that you haven't written that these
artifacts must be preserved and make sure that your family/executor know full
well the value of "that old dusty stuff in the attic that he fussed over for
so long."

The lack of knowledge on the part of inheritors is much more responsible for
the loss of artifacts than any natural disaster hitting archives.  We can
calculate the losses from that, but the losses from the dumpster are both
enormous and impossible to fathom.


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 09:10:25 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: MacArthur/Philippines

   Hi Richard,... re: MacArthur... as I understand it, had all intentions
of holding the Philippines, however did not deploy his troops for defense
of the islands. The Japanese faced mainly Filipino troops who couldn't
deal with Japanese armor. Once the Japanese got aground, that was it.
Apparently fog on Formosa had delayed the Japanese assault on 8Dec41
against the Philippines, and B17s that were circling the island of
Luzon (so as not to be caught on the ground) were landed and prepped
for an immediate response to the attack at Pearl. Poor timing and
inadequate early warning systems found them on the ground at the
same time the Japanese aircraft struck. We lost most of the regions
B17s and P40E fighters in that one event.

The British had already shown their true color in Hong Kong, where according
to Liddell Hart, "The early loss of this British outpost in the Far East
was the clearest of all examples of how strategy, and common sense, can
be sacrificed vainly for the sake of fanciful prestige."

In a foot note he provides support: "In March 1935, General Dill, who
had become director of Military Operations and Intelligence, asked me
to go to the War Office for a talk with him about current and prospective
defence problems. The discussion focused on the Far East, and particularly
on the question of trying to hold Hong Kong in the event of war with Japan.
According to a note of the discussion made that evening: 'I suggested, and
he appeared to agree, that it would be better to risk its loss by holding
it too lightly than to strengthen it so much as to make it, morally a
"Verdun" or "Port Arthur" with great danger to our prestige if lost."

Can you believe that?

'Regards, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:45:44 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Women's WWII Literature

>Hello everyone,
> Myself and another colleague are working on a book project concerning
>Women's War Literature. I am responsible for the section on WWII and
>would like to ask your assistance for names of writers I can include. I
>am interested in the following material:
>1) Any fictional works  (novels, short stories, poetry)
There is a lot of work _about_ women in WW2, but not much by them. Mary
Wesley's "The Camomile Lawn" might be a good start. Nevil Shute's "Requiem
for a Wren".

>2) Any nonfiction collections (essays, diaries, letters)
"After the Battle" magazine has had a lot of contributions & reminiscences
by women who served in WW2.
The IWM library probably has a good list.
I have an interesting book back in the UK on women in the forces (entiltled
ISTR something like "In love and war") A bit sociological, but some
interesting stuff.
Several memoirs of resistance heroines, but mostly in French. Biog of Odette
Hallowes, who died last week. Also that of Nancy Wake, recently reissued in
pbk in the UK.

>3) Cartoons by women or cartoons that have women caricatures related somehow
>   to WWII (So far, I've found some interesting HomeFront cartoons...)
>4) Autobiographies/Biographies about or by women regarding WWII
(see above)

>5) Any materials from women war correspondents
>
>In addition, if anyone can provide any additional resources I may consult
>to assist me with my search, please send me email at: mhricko@kentvm.kent.edu
>                  Thanks...
>                            Regards, Mary
>
I might be able to be more specific when I return to the UK at the end of
this month.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:41:45 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 04-02-95

You wrote:

>
>>             Attack transport CHILTON (APA-38), by suicide plane,
>>              Okinawa area,
>>              25 d. 59'N., 127 d. 17'E.
>
>>             Attack cargo ship LACERTA (AKA-29),
>>              accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
>>              Okinawa area,
>>              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 43'E.
>
>
>What kind of ship was the Attack Transport (APA) and
>Attack Cargo (AKA) ships?
>
>        Thanks for any information
>
>        Robert Maartensson
>        robert@nexus.se
>
>
Robert,

Attack Transports (APA) primarily carried personnel and their immediate
operational supplies.  A typical APA could carry a battalion.  The
Attack Cargo (AKA) carried the heavy equipment, engineering supplies,
tanks, etc.  The APA usually carried LCVPs and LCAs, while the AKA
carried LCMs as landing craft.  A Regimental Landing Team required 3
APAs and 1 AKA, but this changed once the LSTs arrived, and also varied
from invasion to invasion in the Pacific.

Some of the ships were existing hulls taken over from commerce, while
others were purpose built.  APAs converted from existing hulls were
usually from combination passenger/cargo ships.  True liners, like the
Queen Mary, were used as troops ships (AP).  Some of the Victory Ships
were built as AKAs and APAs.  A quick way to tell if a ship is an AP or
an APA is to look at the boats:  if they are regular lifeboats, it is an
AP; LCVPs = APA, LCMs = AKA.

HTH,
Ed Kettler
deradler@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 08:11:51 PDT
From:    "Mark H. Walter" <mwalter@WORLD.NAD.NORTHROP.COM>
Subject: RE WEAP WW2 Rifles

hansoff writes:
>
>   Do you happen to have any mail lists for rifles and other firearms?  I
> would be very interested in adding those to my mailbox.  Thanx...

Here are 2 lists from the list of lists on sri.com you might be interested in:

BLACK-POWDER@catnip.berkeley.ca.us or bp@catnip.berkeley.ca.us
 Subscription Address: Majordomo@catnip.Berkeley.CA.US
 Owner: Andy Beals mauser@catnip.berkeley.ca.us
 Last Update: 8/22/94
 Description:
  This is a list for folks interested in black powder arms.

FIREARMS@CS.CMU.EDU
 Subscription Address: FIREARMS-REQUEST@CS.CMU.EDU
 Owner: Karl Kleinpaste <Karl_Kleinpaste@N2.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>
 Description:
  This mailing list has been created to provide an environment in which
  sportsmen can discuss issues of concern to them.  Topics include but are
  not limited to hunting, firearms safety, legal issues, reloading tips,
  maintenance suggestions, target shooting, and dissemination of general
  info.  The list is not intended to discuss the merits of gun control.

 Mark Walter  mwalter@world.nad.northrop.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:48:03 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Since we are talking movies, does anyone know what ever became of the
Arnold Schwarzenegger project to be DC Comic's Sgt. Rock?  If they
chose not to release it I believe I can think of at least one reason
why.  Arnie speaks pretty good American but I don't think Sgt Rock
fans could deal with a Sgt. Rock with an Austrian accent.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:19:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: MacArthur/Philippines

 >   Hi Richard,... re: MacArthur... as I understand it, had all intentions
 >of holding the Philippines, however did not deploy his troops for defense
 >of the islands. The Japanese faced mainly Filipino troops who couldn't
 >deal with Japanese armor. Once the Japanese got aground, that was it.
 >Apparently fog on Formosa had delayed the Japanese assault on 8Dec41
 >against the Philippines, and B17s that were circling the island of
 >Luzon (so as not to be caught on the ground) were landed and prepped
 >for an immediate response to the attack at Pearl. Poor timing and
 >inadequate early warning systems found them on the ground at the
 >same time the Japanese aircraft struck. We lost most of the regions
 >B17s and P40E fighters in that one event.

snip   snip   snip   snip   snip  snip
 >
 >Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst

The way the USAF tells the story, the word about the Pearl Harbor
attack reached the Philippines between 0300-0330 hours local on 8
Dec.  Upon hearing the news, General Lewis Brereton, Commanding
General Far East Air Force, went to MacArthur's HQ and requested
permission to use the B-17s to bomb Formosa.  Mac said no; the
Philippines were a Commonwealth of the US and just because the
Japanese attacked the US did not mean that the Philippines were at
war with Japan.  The Japanese airfields were fog bound the morning
of 8 Dec local and the Japanese were afraid that the delay in
getting off the ground would enable the USAAF to attack them.
Because MacArthur would not allow us to attack Formosa, our
aircraft were circling Luzon.  When lunch time came, they landed to
refuel and allow the pilots to eat.  (Hey, peacetime habits die
hard!)  And as luck would have it, the lifting of the fog over
Formosa allowed the Japanese to get off the ground and arrive over
Luzon during lunch.  The rest is history.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:34:46 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

        The Sinatra movie is "None But The Brave."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:49:07 EST
From:    Mike Knoll <MKNOLL@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Confirmation of Subscription

     OK - 635671

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:18:40 EST5EDT
From:    "Dr. Tom Veve" <TVEVE@CARPET.DALTON.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Das Boot

Whyohwhy?  Because (as I watched the movie) I thought I was a crew
member and I was not going to survive.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:15:19 -0400
From:    Pat Marsden <marsden@ISMAP6.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles

> Subject: Re: WW2 Rifles
> hansoff writes:
> >
> >   Do you happen to have any mail lists for rifles and other firearms?  I
> > would be very interested in adding those to my mailbox.  Thanx...
> >
>

There is     <firearms@cup.hp.com>    which has technical discussions
of firearms.  The subscription procedure is the same as WWII-L.

patrick,

--
Patrick D. Marsden          | Naval Research Laboratory     | (202)-404-8229
Computational Physics, Inc  | Planetary Atmospheres Section | Opinions are mine
marsden@ismap6.nrl.navy.mil | Code 7641                     |  and mine alone.
http://power.nrl.navy.mil   | Washington, D.C.  20375       |      * NRA *

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 14:03:02 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Accidental Shootings

Steve New <newst@IX.NETCOM.COM> asks:
> Did the Marines actually use M-60s in Vietnam?  I thought the heaviest
> armor in theater was the M48.

A quick scan of "M60 in Action" indicates that only M60 variants were in
Vietnam: the M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle (obstacle removal/tank recovery)
which had a 165mm demolition cannon, and the M60AVLB (bridging vehicle)
which had no gun.  There are apocryphal stories of M60 MTBs in Vietnam (and
of an M728 locking horns with an T55 and winning!), but no photos or records
support these claims.  It is dubious that they would have been sent since
the only significant advantage would have been its 105mm gun over the M48's
90mm gun and it wasn't necessary to upgun against the older Soviet tanks
the US was likely to encounter.  So, unless someone had his face stuck in
the tube of the M728, or the incident occurred somewhere else, I would say
that the original story is an urban legend.

Anyway, we should move back to WWII, but I first had to indulge my armor
fetish!  Thanks for your patience.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
You're a good man, Mulligan.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:56:41 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

>>
>Again, I do recommend 'Heimat'. It covers 1920 to 1982 and chronicles the
>lives of a small German village in the Hunsruck - between the Rhine and the
>Moselle. Some people embrace nazism, some drift into it, a few even oppose
>it; most are indifferent. It is important to remember that this was Germany
>at the time : mostly small villages where people knew very little of the
>outside world. Members of my family who were living in Germany pre-1932-ish
>claim that it is very authentic. Well worth the 16 hours. I seem to recall
>that it was on Ch12 (PBS) in Philadelphia ca. 1988. I've never seen it on video.
>Cris
>
>Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd

If anybody knows were there is a copy of this series...! Same, by the way, for Das Boot, which
one movie guide says was a TV movie in Germany shown in installments. There are some
parts in the book that are not covered in the feature-film version, such as an encounter with an
Italian (I think) steamer on the way back home from the Mediterranean. U96 signals the ship to
surrender to inspection or get sunk...The ship captain is late in complying. U96 turns around
to fire from its stern tube, and then...

--- Jim Brady



-------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:41:34 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance

>  I believe the Shoals were maintained as a Coast Guard loran or weather
>station long after the war.  It was a dangerous place in storms.
>
>Edward Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

Thanks for the excellent info... now can you tell us what happened to the
French Frigate? <g>

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 14:56:43 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule

This is the spring WWII Reenacting and event schedule for the Mid-West.
There are probably many events on the East and West coast that I am
unaware of, as well as a few probably in the Mid-West that didn;t get to
me as well.  WWIIHRS means World War II Historical Reenactment Society.
WWIIAPS means World War II Airman's Preservation Society, and CAF Means
Confederate Airforce.

Apr 15-16 Avoca, WI, WWIIHRS, Western Front Airborne Battle

Apr 21-23 Camden, OH, WWIIHRS, Western Front Battle

April 22, Aurora, IL, WWIIHRS, WWII Dinner and Dance

April 28-9 Yorkville, IL, WWIIHRS, WWII Basic Training Revisited

April 28 St. Louis, MO, WWIIHRS, Jefferson Barracks Display and public
         battle--various time periods

May 6-7 Geneva, IL, WWIIHRS, Living History Display and Public Battle

May 6-7 Kansas City, MO, V-E Day Celebration, WWIIHRS, includes display
s, parade, and steam train ride into Union Station, also aircraft
display at KC downtown Airport

May 6-7 Ft. Knox, KY, WWIIHRS, Western Front Tactical Battle on Sat and
Public battle on Sunday

May ???  Memphis, TN, WWIIAPS, Memphis Belle Last Mission Anniversary

May 20 St. Paul, MN, CAF, Fleming Field Hanger Dance

May 26-8 Fort Smith, AR, WWIIHRS, Living History Display and Public Bat
tles

June ???  Dyersburg, TN, WWIIAPS, Airshow

July 27-Aug 2 Oshkosh, WI, CAF and WWIIAPS, Annual Fly-in

Aug 4-6 Aurora, IL, WWIIHRS, Living Histpry Display and Public Battles

Aug 4-6 St. Paul, MN, CAF, 18th Annual Airpower Display at Holman Field

August ??  Worth, IL, WWIIHRS, Living History Display and public battles

Aug 11-12 Tinley Park, IL, WWIIHRS, Living History Displays and Public
Battles

Sept 2-4 Jefferson, IN, WWIIAPS, Clark County Airshow

Sep 5-10 St. Louis, MO, WWIIAPS, 8th Air Force Reunion, Adams Mark Hot
el

Sep ??  Westmont, IL , WWIIHRS, Living History Displays and Public Battl
es

Oct 6-8 Yorkville, IL, WWIIHRS, WWIIHRS National Battle and meeting

If there are other events that people would like to see added to the
schedule please let me know.  Also, please feel free to repost this list
to other mailing lists--send it to friends etc.  I have more information
on most of these events so please contact me directly for more
information.  It will be a great summer!!  All I am thinking right now
for may is Kansas City and chuga chuga chuga chuga.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:57:06 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
Subject: Re[4]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory

I know we knew about Midway, for tha is why we send out the Yorktown
hile it still had workers on board.  THat was a work of Magic(not the
intel source).  I still I am of the assumption though that the JApanese
could have help onto PEarl long enough, to move on and take more land or
negotiate a peace in their favor.  Anyway I would be interested in
hearing anyoene's vies on this subject.
Chris


>>From:         "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re[2]: Tactics (?) Assurance of Victory
>>
>>I'm not sure werew I read it I did, but once again I could be
>>wrong.  I think that I am confused with  your statement about not
>>being accidental.  Are you saying that they were there because
>>the US had previous knowledge of the attack on Pearl.  Also what do
>>you think about the theory of invasion vs. just bombing.
>>Thanks fro the not Chris
>
>Chris,
>
>If you review your sources, I think you will find it was Midway, not
>Pearl,  We did know about Midway prior to the event.  As another person
>on the list posted, it may have been MAGIC rather than LUCK, as we were
>able to read some of the Japanese ciphers and codes.  As for invasion
>vs. bombing, I'm not much for what if, but it's one thing to bomb,
>another to invade, and something more to keep your troops there and
>supplied.
>
>John Riegsecker
>Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
>University of Puget Sound
>
>riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:31:40 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule

Tim,

     The Aberdeen Proving Ground's Tiger I was back in Germany
being refitted, when my son and I visited it in 1993.  Do the
museums ever allow their equipment to participate in the events.
I would think it would be great advertising.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:47:44 -0400
From:    "Peter I. Hidas" <PHIDAS@RUNT.DAWSONCOLLEGE.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

WEre all members of the SS also members of the Nazi party? Was
membership compulsory for them?
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:25:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

Hello, Cris!

Beg to differ. The Germans produced a mini-series for television that
dealt with a family in East Prussia, and showed how the war affected
this family; from sending a father and brother off to fight to the
horrible ending. It was most poignant and, from the German nationals
who viewed this with me at the time in Germany, all said that "it
could have been written by thousands of people who endured the
conflict".

Although not a "movie" but it left me with a feeling that persists to
this day, and I have never forgotten what I saw. It was called
"Jokhenen" (Yoh-kay-nen).

Hope this has been of interest.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:51:17 -0400
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Chip Merton wrote:

>
> I saw a film several months ago that was a joint US/Japanese production,
> produced by and staring Frank Sanatra. Basicly the story is about a group of
> US servicemen who crash land on an island that has been bypassed but still
> occupied by an equal number of Japanese. A very interesting side note is
> that the special effects (which were rather good for the mid to late 1950's)
> were done by the same company that worked on my other favorite type of film...
>   The Cheap Japanese Horror Movie  (i.e. Godzilla, Mothra, Gamera, et. al)
>
> Anyway my question... What is the name of this film?


> Thanks

"None But The Brave"

        (you're welcome)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:00:13 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

        Scanning the shelves here at Pitt's main library, I saw a couple of
books which you might want to check out;
        M. Lisiewicz (ed.), "Destiny Can Wait: the Polish Air Force in the
Second World War" (London, Heinemann, 1949-- I was looking through this in
relation to something else and noticed a nice section on Polish airmen in
England)
        Arkady Fiedler, "Squadron 303; the Story of the Polish Fighter Squadron
with the RAF" (New York, Roy, 1943)

        Also, I'm assuming you might have already referenced Wladyslaw Anders'
"Army In Exile; the story of the Second Polish Corps" (London; McMillan, 1949).
Anders got to the west the hard way, via Soviet POW camps, but was one of the
major commanders of the Polish forces in exile, and fought his corps under
British command.  This one I've read, its pretty interesting.  Sorry these are
so old, but thought they might help in building your bibliography.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:21:13 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What If?

The May selection booklet from The Military Book Club arrived today and one
of the main selections is a book called "The Hitler Options" edited by
Kenneth Macksey.

The book is a collection of essays by authors such as Macksey, Bryan Perret,
James Lucas, etc. that discuss various campaigns and  what Hitler could have
done, what his chances for success might have been and where the "what if"
campaigns deviate from what actually took place.

This posting is for information only. I only know of this book from the MBC
selection booklet. Since I haven't read it I can not comment on its worth.

Ron Charlton
RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:21:12 -0500
From:    "Jordan J. Gardner" <jgardn01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: WWII-Navy USS JUNEAU (CL-52)

Wanting to hear from anyone concerning U.S.S. JUNEAU
(CL-52)..anti-aircraft cruiser..sunk Friday, 13 November 1942..during
battle of Guadalcanal..crew of 700..150 survived sinking..ten ultimately
lived..with the passing of Mr ART FRIEND, Miller, MO recently only three
remain alive..book "LEFT TO DIE" by Dan Kurzman, published in Feb/Mar
1994 tells most of it..however research could have been better..reunion
of JUNEAU assimilated with U.S.S.ATLANTA (CL-51), sister ship to JUNEAU
due to number of survivors..ATLANTA scuttled to prevent capture..next
reunion in San Antonio, TX sometime this year..
Sincerely;
J.J.Gardner (son of survivor H.J.Gardner, MM1C, USN-deceased)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:47:45 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: OKINAWA  COMMEMORATION

To All:

C-Span broadcast two versions, long and short, of the Okinawa
commemoration at the Pentagon on Saturday, 1 April. The long
version included the color guards, formation inspection, and
pass-in-review. The senior guests included Gen. Carl Mundy,
Commandant of the Marine Corps, Undersecretary of the Army
Joe Reeder, and a Marine veteran of the campaign, Mr. Benis
Frank, currently Chief Historian of the Corps. Units present
included the Marine Band ("The President's Own"), elements
of the 1st battalion, 3rd Regiment, USA ("The Old Guard"),
and the Honor Guards of the Air Force, Coast Guard, and Navy.

Appropriate comments were made by Gen. Mundy, Mr. Reeder,
and Mr. Frank, before an audience of several hundred veterans,
family members, and officials. Mr Frank took the inspection,
accompanied by the detachment commander.

The C-Span short version included only the remarks by
Gen. Mundy and Mr. Frank.

OKAY, so much for the social note.

Ben recalled his experiences, from the clear, bright morning of the
landings to seeing the Japanese plane carrying the parley delegation
to Manila landing on Ie Shima as he and his fellow Marines prepared
for Olympic. He spoke for all veterans of the emotions of combat,
of the surprise in seeing the initial lack of Japanese resistance,
and of understanding the meaning of the Betty with the green crosses-
they would be going home, not to a third (or more) invasion.

But the most interesting moment (for me) was watching Ben on the
inspection tour- a few years and a few pounds, but perfect march
discipline throughout. Never seen anyone lose five decades that
quickly. Yep, there's no such thing as an ex-Marine....

If a non-Marine can be permitted, Semper Fi!, Ben, and thanks again
for what you and your buddies did for us.

Henry Sirotin



PS- If you're interested, C-Span sells tapes of its shows at $35/hr.
The entire ceremony ran about 50 minutes.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Iwo Jima

>From the US Air Forces News Service

292.  Bomber veterans return to Iwo Jima
by Marine Corps Cpl. Jeff Hawk
     IWO JIMA (AFNS) -- Fifty years ago on Iwo Jima, American
Marines and sailors fought against entrenched Japanese forces to
secure an emergency landing strip for crippled B-29 bombers.
     A half-century later, nearly 1,000 survivors of the battle and
veteran B-29 crewmembers returned here to honor those who
fought for the island.
     "The taking of this island saved our lives," said Robert Wetter,
an Army Air Forces staff sergeant during World War II.  Wetter
served as a B-29 central fire control gunner, with the 883rd
Bombardment Squadron (Very Heavy), Twentieth Air Force, which was
based on Saipan Island during the war.
     Nearly 2,400 B-29s carrying 27,000 crewmen made unscheduled
landings on Iwo Jima before the war's end.
     The Marines had barely captured one airfield when the first
Superfortress landed on the island, March 4, 1945.  The battered
bomber, "Dinah Might," stayed long enough to make repairs before
heading back to Saipan.  Though Dinah Might's time on the island
was only a few short hours, veterans of the battle said it gave them
an added sense of purpose.
     "We knew there was a reason why we had to take this island,"
said veteran Marine Corporal Robert Jones, who used a flame thrower.
"Those planes got the hell kicked out of them."
     Wetter said the bomber's landing in the midst of the battle
showed the perilous situation crews often faced as they returned
from bombing missions in Japan.  His B-29 Superfortress made two
such emergency landings on the island.
     "We landed here because we couldn't close our bomb bay doors
and the drag was taking up our fuel.  We landed, refueled and
repaired the doors in a few hours, then blew back out to Saipan, "
said the veteran.
     On another mission, Wetter's bomber was so low on fuel the
only options were to land on Iwo Jima or ditch into the ocean.
     According to Wetter, when the Japanese held the island
aircrews couldn't fly too low because of the anti-aircraft fire.  As a
result, they had to fly around the island, which meant using more
fuel.  "It was imperative to neutralize the island and make it safe,"
he said.
     During the commemorative visit to Iwo Jima, veterans toured
old battle sites and had an opportunity to speak to other veterans.
Wetter said he finally got the chance to thank those who helped
fight to secure the island, and to tell them he hoped his
participation in B-29 raids in Japan saved lives by weakening
Japan's ability to wage war.
     (Courtesy PACAF News Service.  Hawk is assigned to the Iwo
Jima Joint Information Bureau)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Force News Agency                   :  DSN: 945-6164
AFNEWS/IICX                             :  sysop@afnews.pa.af.mil
Kelly AFB, TX 78241-5000                :  131.13.24.1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:55:55 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies -Reply

Europa, Europa.  Good movie.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:59:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 4 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-3, Douglas Havoc
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  OA-10, Consolidated Catalina
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (ZI): The Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) designates General
of the Army Douglas MacArthur Commander-in-Chief, US Army Forces, Pacific
(CINCUSAFPAC) and Fleet Admiral Chester W Nimitz Commander-in-Chief, Pacific
(CINCPOA).

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 2 B-25s sink a
junk in the Gulf of Tonkin and 6 P-38s strafe trucks around Dien Bien Phu,
Moc Chau, and Son La.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): Combat operations are restricted to
attacks on a troop concentration and rice and fuel supplies behind enemy
lines in C Burma; transports operate on steady basis throughout the day.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 926: 1,431 bombers and 866 fighters are dispatched to hit
airfields, a shipyard and a U-boat shipyard in Germany; they claim 30-4-30
Luftwaffe aircraft; 10 bombers and 4 fighters are lost.
  1. 438 B-24s are sent to hit Parchim (33) and Perleberg (29) Airfields; 97
hit Wesendorf Airfield, the secondary; attacks are visual; they claim 6-4-6
aircraft; 6 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 76 damaged; 1 airman
is KIA and 59 MIA. Escorting are 324 P-47s and P-51s; the P-47s claim 14-0-20
aircraft and the P-51s claim 9-0-3 aircraft; 1 P-47 and 3 P-51s are lost.
  2. 443 B-17s are sent to hit Fassberg Airfield (149); secondary targets hit
are Hoya (37) and Dedelsdorf (13) Airfields; targets of opportunity are
Unterluss (39) and other (24); bombing is visual; 1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged
beyond repair and 58 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 6 WIA and 4 MIA. The escort is
220 of 232 P-51s; 1 is lost.
  3. 505 of 526 B-17s hit the Deutsche shipyard at Kiel using H2X radar; 2
others hit Eggebeck Airfield, a target of opportunity; 3 B-17s are lost and
50 damaged; 27 airmen are MIA. 208 of 223 P-51s without loss.
  4. 22 of 24 B-17s fly a DISNEY mission attacking the Finkenwarder U-boat
yard at Hamburg without loss.
  5. 19 P-51s fly a scouting mission and claim 0-0-1 aircraft.
  6. 25 P-51s escort 8 F-5s and 2 P-38s on photo and radar reconnaissance
missions over Germany, claiming 1-0-0 aircraft.
  7. 16 P-51s escort 1 OA-10 and 2 B-17s on air-sea-rescue patrols.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): The 405th Fighter Squadron, 371st
Fighter Group, moves from Metz, France to Eschborn Airfield, Frankfurt,
Germany with P-47s.
    Ninth Air Force: HQ XXIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional) returns to the
operational control of HQ Ninth AF (from the RAF Second Tactical AF) as the
US Ninth Army reverts to control of the Twelfth Army Group (from the Twenty
First Army Group); the British ground and air HQ have operationally
controlled the XXIX Tactical Air Command and Ninth Army since shortly after
the Ardennes breakthrough and the Battle of the Bulge.
    In Germany, 330+ B-26s, A-20s and A-26s hit the Ebrach oil depot,
Crailsheim marshalling yard and barracks area, Grossaspach supply depot, the
town of Ellswangen, Backnang rail and road junction, and 2 targets of
opportunity; fighters escort the bombers, fly patrols, sweeps, and armed
reconnaissance, attack special targets, and support the US 104th Infantry
Division at Scherfede and Hardehausen, the 9th Armored Division in the
Warburg area, the XX Corps in the Muhlhausen-Kassel areas, the 2d and 5th
Armored Divisions in the Hameln and Minden areas on the Weser River, and the
8th Armored Division as it assaults the Ruhr pocket in the Lippstadt area.
Units moving: the 107th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 67th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, from Vogelsang to Limburg, Germany with F-6s; the 125th
Liaison Squadron, IX Fighter Command (attached to Twelfth Army Group), from
Munchen-Gladen to Haltern, Germany with L-5s; the 155th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, from Le Culot,
Belgium to Maastricht, the Netherlands with F-3s; the 355th Fighter Squadron,
354th Fighter Group, from Rosieres-en-Haye, France to Ober Olm, Germany with
P-51s; and the 494th, 495th and 496th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 344th
Bombardment Group (Medium), from Cormeilles-en-Vexin, France to Juzaine
Airfield, Florennes, Belgium with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAFMTO: HQ 90th Photographic Wing (Reconnaissance) begins a movement from
San Severo, Italy to the US.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Again bad weather prevents
bomber operations and limits efforts to reconnaissance and escort missions
and to strafing attacks by 94 P-51s on rail traffic in the Munich and
Regensburg, Germany; Plzen, Czechoslovakia; and Linz, and Gmunden, Austria
areas.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s continue to blast
communications along the Brenner rail line, ranging from the railroad bridge
at Drauburg to the Camposanto railroad bridge; the B-25s also inflict
considerable damage on the Merano methanol plant; P-47s concentrate on enemy
movement, rail lines, and ammunition and fuel dumps throughout the Po Valley.
The 489th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Alesan, Corsica to Rimini, Italy with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 24 B-24s from Angaur Island, Palau Islands, hit
a building at Bunawan, Mindanao Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): HQ 40th and 462d Bombardment Groups (Very
Heavy) arrive at West Field, Tinian Island from India.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Formosa, B-24s
bomb Toyohara Airfield, Mako harbor, and Tokichito Island and A-20s hit
Shinchiku factories and rail yards. B-24s bomb the harbor at Hong Kong. P-38s
and P-51s pound various targets in C Luzon Island while A-20s and P-38s hit
the Calauag area. A-20s pound NW Negros Island and B-24s bomb targets on C
Mindanao Island. The 17th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment), 71st
Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from San Jose, Mindoro Island to
Lingayen, Luzon with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2
WORLD WAR II IN THE NORTH PACIFIC by Kevin D. Hutchinson, 1994,
  ISBN-0-313-29130-6

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/2357Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:57:38 EDT
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: History: Enfield Rifles (Long)

     Based on some of the feedback to my earlier posting on the Enfield
pattern rifles, I thought I would go ahead and post something a bit more
substantive.  Although it transcends the strict boundaries of the WWII list,
I thought some might be interested to see the historical lineage of the
World War 2 rifles.  In the same vein, I have cross-posted this to the
World War I list, as I thought it might be of passing interest to people
there as well (my apologies in advance to those who subscribe to both
lists, and have to suffer through it twice!).  What follows is an abbreviated
history of the Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifles and the Enfield P-13/P-14/
P-17 family.

     * Early history *

     The Lee turnbolt action was developed by James Paris Lee, a Scots-born
inventor who emigrated to Canada and the United States.  Lee established the
Lee Arms Company in Bridgeport, Connecticut, in 1879.  The first rifle
produced by the company was the Model 1879, which was manufactured by E.
Remington and Sons of Ilion, New York, from 1880-1884.  This rifle was issued
a US patent in 1879, and about 250 were purchased by the U.S. Navy in 1881 to
arm newly-commissioned warships.  The M1879 in USN service was chambered for
the .45-70 Government black powder round, but could be chambered in .44-77
Necked and .43 Spanish to order.

     The Model 1882, produced by E. Remington and Sons from 1882-1884,
entered U.S. army trials in 1882, featuring an improved bolt design.  It
competed favourably against the Chaffee Reece and Hotckiss rifles, but the
U.S. Army of the time stuck to its tried and true Model 1873 "Trapdoor"
single-shot breech-loading rifles in .45-70 Government.  In 1884, Remington
produced 750 of the Model 1882 rifles for U.S. Army trials.  The U.S. Army
Ordnance Board again reported favourably on the rifle, but the Model 1873
"Trapdoor" was retained in U.S. Army service.  The Navy, meanwhile, ordered
another 700 of the rifles in 1884.

     The Model 1885, produced by E. Remington & Sons from 1886-1887 and by
Remington Arms Company (which took over manufacture from E. Remington & Sons
after the latter company's collapse in 1886) from 1888-1892, featured a new
magazine design and a different bolt head.  Roughly 1,500 of these rifles
were delivered to the U.S. Navy between 1888 and 1889.  The USN M1885's were
again chambered in .45-70 Government, while other trials rifles produced for
Denmark and Britain were chambered in .43 (11mm) Spanish.

     The Model 1899, produced by the Remington Arms Company from 1899-1906,
was the last of the U.S. Lee rifles.  It was chambered in a variety of
calibres, including the 6.5mm Lee, 7x57mm and 7.65x53mm Mauser, .303, .30-30
Winchester, and .30-40 Krag.  Quite a few were sold in South and Central
America prior to 1900, but sales then dropped off in favour of Mauser
designs.


     * British Military Rifles *

     The first Lee-actioned rifles appeared in Britain during 1880, when 3
Model 1879 Lee rifles firing the .45 Gatling cartridge were ordered for
trials.  At the end of the trials in March of 1881, the Lee emerged as the
top contender.  In 1883, further rifles in .45-70 Government were tested at
Enfield, leading to further testing of an "Improved Lee" pattern.  In 1887,
successful tests with a Model 1885 Lee chambered in .43 Spanish led to an
order for 300 rifles for trials against the .402 Lee-Burton.  The same year,
however, the .402 calibre round was abandoned in favour of trials of a .298-
calibre Rubin bullet that promised greater accuracy and flatter trajectory.
Further trials rifles with the new round were produced in 1888.


     a. Lee-Metford Rifles

     The pattern for the Lee-Metford "Rifle, Magazine, .303-inch (Mark I)"
was sealed on 12 December 1888.  These rifles were 49.5 inches overall, with
30.2 inch barrels based on the Metford rifling system (7 grooves, with a
left-hand twist of 1 turn in 10 inches).  The standard rifle weighed 9.5
pounds unloaded.  The rifles were chambered for the new .303-inch round,
which at the time was a 215-grain round-nosed bullet encased in a cupro-
nickel jacket.  Backed by 70 grains of compressed black powder, this round
attained a muzzle velocity of about 1,850 feet per second.  The Lee Metford
Mark I rifles were fitted with regular sights ranging from 300 to 1,900
yards, as well as an "Extreme Range Sight" on the stock that was graduated
from 1,800 to 3,500 yards.  These rifles were fitted with an 8 shot
detachable box magazine, and had a magazine cut-off plate on the side of the
receiver.  This allowed the rifles to be used as single shots for aimed
volley fire, reserving the rounds in the magazine for shorter-range rapid
fire.

     The Lee-Metford Mark I* was introduced from 1890, with the pattern
sealed in January 1892.  The rifles featured changes to the safety catch, the
bolt mainspring and magazine spring, and a new sight was introduced.  The new
sight featured a blade front sight, and modified the range settings to
accord with a new smokeless powder (Cordite) .303 round with a muzzle
velocity of about 1,970 fps.  The long range sight was now graduated for
ranges from 1,600 to 2,900 yards.

     The Lee-Metford Mark II pattern was sealed in April 1893, although the
design had been in production since 1892.  The new rifles introduced the
standard 10-round Lee magazine of the later rifles, featured lighter
barrels, and changes were made in the bolt and the magazine cut-off.

     In September 1894, a cavalry carbine was introduced -- the Lee-Metford
Mark I.  The carbine was 39.9-inches in length overall with a barrel length
of 20.75 inches, weighed 7.5 lbs unloaded, and featured a 6-round magazine
that was almost flush with the bottom of the stock.  The carbine's bolt
handle was made flatter than the standard rifle's so that it would fit in the
saddle bucket of the day.

     April 1895 saw the introduction of the last of the Lee Metford types,
the Lee Metford Mark II*.  These rifles featured longer bolts, changes to the
cocking piece, and changes to the safety catch.


     b. Lee-Enfield Rifles

     Adoption of the Mark I .303 cartridge using Cordite propellant in 1892
quickly caused excessive wear in the Metford pattern of rifling, which had
been designed to deal with the fouling of black powder.  To deal with the
problem, Enfield pattern rifling was introduced (named after the Royal Small
Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, north of London).  The new rifling involved 5
deeper square-shouldered grooves compared with the Metford Pattern's 7
shallower grooves.  The result was the Lee-Enfield family of rifles.

     The "Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Enfield, .303-inch (Mark I)" was sealed in
November 1895.  It was broadly similar to the Lee Metford Mark II* with the
exception of the new rifling, which necessitated off-setting the sights
to the left by 0.05 inches in order to compensate for bullet drift.  The Lee
Enfield Mark I* followed in 1899, deleting the cleaning rod that had been a
feature of the Lee-Metford rifles, which was no longer needed (a pull-through
sufficed, as the Cordite ammunition made the rifles easier to clean).  A Lee-
Enfield cavalry carbine, the Mark I, was introduced in 1896.  It was
basically similar to its Lee-Metford predecessor.  The Mark I* carbine was
introduced in 1899, similar to the earlier model except for the deletion of
the cleaning rod.

     Introduction of the "Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield (Mark I)" (the
famous SMLE) began in 1902.  Intended to be a compromise between the long
infantry-pattern rifles and the shorter cavalry carbines, the new rifle was
44.56 inches long overall with a 25.19-inch barrel, and weighed 8.15 lbs
unloaded.  Sights consisted of a barleycorn front (an inverted V) and tangent
rear leaf graduated to 2,000 yards, with both sights being protected by metal
ears.  The rifles were not well-received by the self-styled musketry experts
of the time, who complained that they were too short for target use and
too long for the cavalry.  Further, thought at the time was turning toward
aperature rear sights, more powerful and flatter-shooting cartridges, and
tighter locking systems as found on the Mauser rifles (the locking lugs of
the Lee are at the back of the bolt, where they engage the sides of the
receiver, as opposed to the Mauser, whose locking lugs are at the front of
the bolt and engage the receiver ring near the breech.  While the Mauser was
stronger and more accurate, the Lee design gave a lightning-fast bolt throw).
Addressing one of the main criticisms of the old Lee-Enfields, the new SMLE
introduced charger-loading via a bridge guide that straddled the receiver
(from the Mark III on).  Experience in South Africa vs. Boer Mausers, which
could be quickly charged from a 5-round stripper-clip, had shown the value of
this feature.  Several of the older Lee-Enfield patterns had been fitted with
charger guides on the bolt head, but these were fragile and unreliable.

     The SMLE Mark I* was introduced in March 1906, making some changes in
the stock furniture and adopting the magazine cut-off of the naval pattern
rifles that had been made in 1903.  Throughout the period 1903-1906, there
were also a number of converted SMLE patterns that modified older Mark I,
Mark I*, Mark II, and Mark II* Lee-Enfields to the shorter pattern.  These
were variously known as the SMLE Mark II and Mark II* Converted patterns.

     The most numerous pattern of the SMLE, the Mark III, was introduced in
1907.  The principle change was in the sights: a simple front blade (coming
in 5 heights) was substituted for the barleycorn, a wider rear tangent sight
was fitted, and a bridge charger guide was introduced.  In 1910, the sights
of the Mark III's were modified to accommodate the new Mark VII cartridge,
which raised the muzzle velocity to 2,230 feet per second, and the magazine
was modified slightly to accept the new round's pointed spitzer-type bullet.
During World War I, several sniper patterns of the SMLE were introduced.
Most of these used relatively low-power (2.5x or 3x) telescopic sights
calibrated for ranges between 100 and 600 yards.  In 1916, the Mark III* was
introduced, making several changes to ease wartime manufacture.
Manufacturers had the option of omitting the long-range sights (all did) and
a few other features to aid production.  As a result, most Mark III* rifles
lack the magazine cut-off of the pre-war rifles.  The SMLE rifles were
produced by the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield Lock, Middlesex (1907-22);
the Birmingham Small Arms Co. Ltd., Small Heath (1907-1943); the Standard
Small Arms Company, Birmingham (1916-1918); National Rifle Factory No. 1
(1918-1919); the Royal Australian Small Arms Factory, Lithgow; and Ishapore
Arsenals, India.

     Transition between the SMLE pattern rifles and the No. 4 Lee-Enfields of
WW II began with the Mark V in 1922.  This pattern introduced an aperature
rear sight at the rear of the receiver, with a large "battlesight" aperature
available for use when the precision aperature was folded down.  The Mark V
was unsatisfactory as an experimental gun, however, and it was quickly
cancelled in favour of the Mark VI, which featured a heavier barrel and other
changes to the rear sight.

     Development of the No. 1 Mark VI into the No. 4, Mark I began in 1929
(the nomenclature for British infantry rifles changed in 1926, with the SMLE
pattern rifles becoming known as the No. 1 series).  Variations to the No. 1
Mark VI and Mark VI B continued until 1939, when the No. 4 Mark I was
formally adopted (although it was not issued until Spring 1942).  The No. 4
was 44.43 inches overall (o/a length varied with the butt fitted--these came
in bantam, standard, and long lengths) and weighed 9.06 lbs unloaded.  The
barrel was heavier than on the SMLE and was bedded differently.  Headspacing
was accomplished by changing the bolt head, which came in a variety of sizes.
These rifles were produced at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Fazakerly,
Lancashire; the Royal Ordnance Factory at Maltby, Yorkshire; and at a
Birmingham Small Arms (BSA)-controlled factory near Birmingham.  Several rear
sight patterns were used.  The Mark 1 sight was a folding pattern, with a
precision aperature adjusted by a worm screw and graduated from 200-1,300
yards in 50 yard increments.  The Mark 2 featured a simple "L"-shaped sight
with aperatures for 300 and 600 yards.  The No. 4 Mark I* was introduced in
1941, featuring simplifications to the design to ease manufacture.  The Mark
I* rifles (about 2 million) were produced exclusively in Canada and the
United States.  Canadian rifles were produced at the Long Branch arsenals in
Toronto and were considered some of the best rifles of the type made.  U.S.
rifles were produced by Savage Arms Company in Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts.
Some of the wartime rifles also featured 2-groove rifling as a further
manufacturing expedient, and a number of modified rear sights, made of cheaper
pressed metal and using a simple slide instead of a worm screw adjustment,
were introduced as an aid to mass production.

     Wartime variants of the No. 4 include the Mark I (T) sniper rifles.
These were select specimens fitted with the No. 32 telescopic sight.  Many of
the converted sniper rifles were modified by famed gunmakers Holland &
Holland, with BSA-produced guns being preferred.  Savage-Stevens and Long
Branch rifles were used as well, however.  During 1943, there had also been
a request for a lighter rifle for jungle use.  This resulted in the No. 5,
which featured an 18.7 inch barrel and weighed only 7.16 lbs unloaded.  These
carbines enjoyed only limited popularity: they were lighter to carry, but
recoiled viciously and suffered from accuracy problems.

     The oddest Lee-Enfield variant is the DeLisle suppressed carbine in
.45 ACP.  These used a modified Lee-Enfield action fitted to a large silencer.
Firing the sub-sonic .45 ACP round, the carbines were extremely quiet--it is
said that upon firing, all one would hear was the firing pin drop on the
cartridge primer.  Unfortunately, any gains in silenced firing were negated
by the noise of working the bolt.  Given their longer barrels, these rifles
could be quite accurate out to about 200 yards with the .45 ACP cartridge.
Versions fitted with fixed wooden stocks and folding-butt versions were
produced.

     Post-war variants of the No. 4 include the Mark 2, the Mark 1/2 (a Mark
I modified to Mark 2 standard) and the Mark 1/3 (a Mark I* brought up to Mark
2 standard).  The Mark 2 and its variants were introduced as of 1949, and
featured only minor changes to simplify the design.  From 1960 on, some of
the No. 4 rifles were modified to 7.62x51mm NATO and were re-designated as
the L8 series.  Some of the Mark I(T) rifles were converted into the L42
series of sniper rifles, which were the standard service sniper rifles up
until the adoption of the Accuracy International L96A1 sniper rifle in 1986.
The L42 series rifles were also of 7.62mm NATO calibre, as was the L39
competition rifle.


     * Enfield Rifles *

     a. Enfield P-13

     As a result of the growing controversy within the self-styled firearms
community (but not the military) surrounding the introduction of the SMLE,
the War Office began development of a rifle more in pace with the musketry
developments of the day.  This meant that the rifle was based on a modified
Mauser action and featured a prominent rear aperature sight.  Further, the
new rifle featured a smaller calibre round of high velocity, which gave a
flatter trajectory.

     The "Rifle, Magazine, Pattern 1913" was introduced in 1913.  It featured
an aperature rear sight graduated from 400-1,900 yards and a battle sight for
600 yards.  Auxiliary long range sights were fitted to the left side of the
stock.  The rifle fired a new .276-calibre (7mm) round, which was loosely
based on the .280 Ross then in vogue with target shooters.  (Note: In my
original post, I incorrectly cited this as a .243-calibre round--Mea Culpa!
The .276-calibre round is more closely equivalent to the current .280
Remington/7mm Remington Express, or the 7mm-06 wildcat round.  It is also
quite similar to the .276-Pedersen which the U.S. Army experimented with
between 1923-1932 for the Pedersen semi-automatic rifle).  The .276 round
featured a 165-grain bullet at 2,800 feet per second, the ammunition being
manufactured at Royal Laboratories, Woolrich.  Drawbacks to the new cartridge
were numerous: heavy recoil, excessive metal fouling, a high degree of muzzle
flash and blast, rapid erosion of the barrel and chamber, barrel overheating,
irregular chamber pressures, and premature ignition in the chamber.


     b. Enfield P-14

     The onset of World War I highlighted a number of critical production
shortages in the manufacture of the SMLE.  No production line for the Pattern
1913 Enfield existed, but the design was considered to be suitable for mass
production.  The experimental .276 calibre round was shelved and the rifle
modified to fire the standard .303 round.  This changed the sight graduations
from 200-1,650 yards with a 400-yard battlesight aperature, and the long
range sight set for distances up to 2,600 yards.  Production for the Pattern
1914 was contracted out entirely to U.S. firms.  Remington Arms-Union
Metallic Cartridge Company produced the majority of the rifles at their
factory in Eddystone, Pennsylvania -- these are known as the Pattern 1914
Mark 1E.  The Mark 1R was produced by Remington at their Bridgeport,
Connecticut factory, while the Mark 1W was produced by Winchester Repeating
Arms Company in New Haven, Connecticut.  All were largely similar, but some
variations in manufacture meant that certain parts were not always
interchangeable.  All of the basic Pattern 1914 1E/1R/1W rifles were produced
in a 1E*/1R*/1W* pattern as well, featuring different fore-ends and other
minor changes.  British contracts for the Pattern 1914 were cancelled in late
1916.

     The rifle was not terribly popular with the troops due to its overall
length of 46.3 inches, its longer barrel of 26 inches, and its smaller 5
round magazine.  Nevertheless, it found its niche as a sniper rifle,
particularly in the form of the Pattern 1914 Mark 1*W (T), which carried an
Aldis telescopic sight.


     c. Enfield 1917

     U.S. production of the Pattern 1914 meant that they had a ready supply
source for this pattern of rifle when they entered the war in 1917.  The U.S.
modified the rifle to fire the .30-06 round and issued it as the Model 1917.
Eddystone was the largest manufacturer, followed by Remington and Winchester.
The Model 1917 was, in fact, more prevalent among U.S. troops (at least in
training and early deployment) than was the contemporary Springfield Model
1903 -- the manufacturers of the Model 1917 produced over 2 million rifles
during the war, while Springfield and Rock Island Arsenal produced only
313,000 M1903 rifles during the same period.  Many of the Model 1917 rifles
were shipped to Britain as Lend-Lease equipment during World War II, where
they occasionally caused confusion with British rifles chambered for .303-
calibre ammunition.  After many accidents where .303 ammunition was
accidentally chambered, most of these rifles were subsequently painted with
a broad red stripe to denote their use of .30-06 ammunition.


     Anyway, hope this is informative and interesting to some.  All replies
and comments welcomed.


     Sources:

Barnes, Frank C.  _Cartridges of the World_, 6th Edition.  Northbrook, IL:
     DBI Books, Inc., 1989.

de Haas, Frank.  _Bolt Action Rifles_, Revised Edition.  Northbrook, IL: DBI
     Books, Inc., 1971, 1984.

Hogg, Ian V. and John Weeks.  _Military Small Arms of the 20th Century_, 6th
     Edition.  Northbrook, IL: DBI Books, Inc., 1992.

Walter, John.  _Rifles of the World_.  Northbrook, IL: DBI Books, Inc., 1993.



--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 20:24:14 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Movies: Heimat and Stalingrad (was Re: Das Boot)

Jim Brady asked where to find a copy of Heimat. Sorry to sound like a
broken record (re. Stalingrad posts) but I have only ever seen this video
avaliable in Canada (Toronto). It _is_ however available on video there to
buy and rent. I recently checked on Stalingrad, BTW, and it is _not_
available in the U.S. at the present moment (to rent or buy). Couldn't
tell you why Canada is getting all the good German flicks first. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:10:36 EDT
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-APR-1945

On 03-APR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The British XXX Corps reaches the Dortmund-Ems canal. In
the U.S. 9th Army sector, the XIII Corps completes capturing the Munster
and reaches the Weser. The XIX Corps is advancing towards the east, putting
pressure on the Ruhr pocket. The XVIII Airborne Corps and the III Corps
begin attacking the Ruhr pocket. In the 3rd Army sector, the 80th Division
continues its offensive against Kassel. In the 7th Army sector, the 45th
Division captures Aschaffenburg. The French 1st Army takes Karlsruhr and
prepares to occupy the Black Forest.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front reaches the open country around
Vienna. Heavy fighting is occuring near Bratislava, which is beseiged by
the 2nd Ukraine Front.

Philippines - Heavy fighting is occurring on Negros and Cebu.

Okinawa - The 6th Marine Division advances about 5 miles towards the
isthmus of Ishikawa. The 1st Marine Division is moving along the Katchin
peninsula and reaches Hizaonna. In the XXIV Corps area, the 7th Division is
moving down the east coast of the island and reaches Kuba. The 96th
Division is advancing more slowly inland and on the west coast.

Washington - General MacArthur is named Commander-in-Chief of all U.S. land
forces in the Pacific and Admiral Nimitz of all naval forces by the Joint
Chiefs of Staff.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 14:23:46 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Inf: Japanese Apology

The following is an article in today's (April 4,95)
Honolulu Advertiser, by Jerome T. Hagen, retired
brigadier general, USMC.  He presently teaches a history
course, "War in the Pacific" at Hawaii Pacific University.

JAPANESE APOLOGY WOULD END 50 YEARS OF BITTERNESS OVER
ATROCITIES

With the anniversary of the end of World War II in the
Pacific almost upon us, it would be wonderful if the
Japanese people would rise to the challenge, wrest
control of the apology issue from the politicians and
call upon their emperor to have the prime minister
publicly apologize to the world for Japan's aggression.

And it would be most appropriate for such an apology to be
made in Honolulu during the 50th anniversary ceremonies.

If Hirohito could bear the unbearable and think the
unthinkable in order to surrender his nation to the
allies on August 15, 1945, then the emperor today could
and should end a 50-year period of bitterness by making
such a gesture.

The Japanese people should not be blamed for the lack of an
apology; they did not start the war.  It was only when
the emperor thought his subjects had suffered enough from
fire-bombings, atomic bombs and 15 years of agression in
China that he acted to stop the war.  Several authors,
including Haruko and Theodore Cook suggested several
reasons why the Japanese have not been able to apologize
for the war.  The reasons include:

--This was the first major defeat for Japan.  There are
well established procedures for the victors, but seldom
is the tale of the defeated told or publicly acknowledged.

--The war period for Japan lacks a clear start and for many
Japanese, a clear finish. Because of the national
censorship and propaganda programs, the population was as
confused and desperate as the Chinese, which Japan had
been terrorizing since 1931.  Japan is estimated to have
suffered about 4 million military and civilian casualties
during the war.  For these people and their families,
August 15, as a date for the end of war, has little or no
significance.

--The responsibility for the war was never officially
placed on anyone.  Ask someone, "who was responsible for
Germany's aggression?"  The answer is certain to be
Adolph Hitler.  Ask the same question about Japan's
aggression and you do not get a consensus of opinion.
The issue remains clouded to this day.

To be sure, there is plenty of blame, but who is to bear
it?  The emperor?  The military?  The numerous cabinets
which were so ineffective?  The industrialists?  The
zealots in the Kwangtung Army?

--MacArthur replaced the military government and started
rebuilding Japan. The issue of responsibility was left
unexplained and the need for an apology was not
considered important.

--Finally in manyways it was a good defeat for the
Japanese.  The country emerged as an economic leader with
personal freedoms and a democratic process never before
imagined.

In summary, there has been little except the Yasukuni
shrine and an annual August 15, "Day Comemorating the End
of the War," to remind the Japanese of the war.  At the
annual ceremony, the emperor reads a short statement, a
moment of silence is observed and the nation gets on with
business.

There is no discussion of the reasons for the war, no
debate of the causes, costs or consequences.  The
ceremony participants are blank faced and generally mute.
 The war years are clearly not etched in time or public
memory.  Only the Japanese people can change this.  Such
a change would be welcomed by the world.



****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 14:36:24 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Body

I saw an article in today's paper about this.  It said that Russia
(Soviets) in 1970 excavated Hitler's body, as well as Eva Brawn, and the
Gobbel family (I think my spelling is off but I don't have time to check
- please accept my apology) and cremated the remains of the bodies.  They
were worried about a resurge of neo-nazism trying to get hold of their
remains.  Article stated that the soviet army had burried these boddies
in secret in 1945 in East. Germany.

How valid this article is, I don't know.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Ron Charlton wrote:

> >From my English friend --
>
> there are rumors that the German magazine Der Spiegel will be publishing an ar
> ticle confirming that the Russians had Hitler's body but destroyed it.
>
> There was a television program about a year ago(?) speculating on this, but
> they couldn't cofirm it at the time.
>
> If I get more on this I will post it.
>
> Ron Charlton
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:34:38 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule -Reply

Across the Rhine in Chestertown, Maryland.
Operation Varisty-Plunder and V-E day.

Tactical, Commerations and Dedications, Displays, Living Histories,
and Vistor Activies.

May 25- May 28 1995

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:55:23 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Japanese midget subs at Pearl

I was wondering if anyone could tell me, has the subemerine sunk by the
Ward ever been found?  Also, is it true that one of the midget subs
actually fired on an American ship at Pearl Harbor?

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 02:55:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance

  > Thanks for the excellent info... now can you tell us what happened to
  > the  French Frigate? <g>

  Yes.  In 1786 the French explorer La Perouse was cruising along the
Leeward Hawaiian atolls on a voyage of discovery.  One fine night his
frigates Astrolabe and Broussole almost ran onto the shoal.  They veered
away just two cables length from the surf.  He named it Basse des Fregates
Francaises, Shoal of the French Frigates, because, said La Perouse, "it had
nearly proved the final termination of our voyage."

Source: Edwin H. Bryan, Jr., "American Polynesia and the Hawaiian Chain"
(Honolulu: 1942)

BTW, Midway was not discovered until 1859.  It was claimed by the US in 1867
(our first offshore territory, just before the Alaska purchase) for use as a
commercial coaling station and thus named for its position exactly halfway
across the North Pacific.  The navy failed at blasting a channel in 1870 and
gave up until a second try in 1938-40.

Edward Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 23:18:42 EST
From:    "OConnor, Christopher M" <KVCK@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule

Do you happen to know of any re-enactments in the East.  If you come
upon any then I would appreciate you sending them to me.  Thanks-Chris

>This is the spring WWII Reenacting and event schedule for the Mid-West.
>There are probably many events on the East and West coast that I am
>unaware of, as well as a few probably in the Mid-West that didn;t get to
>me as well.  WWIIHRS means World War II Historical Reenactment Society.
>WWIIAPS means World War II Airman's Preservation Society, and CAF Means
>Confederate Airforce.
>
>Apr 15-16 Avoca, WI, WWIIHRS, Western Front Airborne Battle
>
>Apr 21-23 Camden, OH, WWIIHRS, Western Front Battle
>
>April 22, Aurora, IL, WWIIHRS, WWII Dinner and Dance
>
>April 28-9 Yorkville, IL, WWIIHRS, WWII Basic Training Revisited
>
>April 28 St. Louis, MO, WWIIHRS, Jefferson Barracks Display and public
>         battle--various time periods
>
>May 6-7 Geneva, IL, WWIIHRS, Living History Display and Public Battle
>
>May 6-7 Kansas City, MO, V-E Day Celebration, WWIIHRS, includes display
>s, parade, and steam train ride into Union Station, also aircraft
>display at KC downtown Airport
>
>May 6-7 Ft. Knox, KY, WWIIHRS, Western Front Tactical Battle on Sat and
>Public battle on Sunday
>
>May ???  Memphis, TN, WWIIAPS, Memphis Belle Last Mission Anniversary
>
>May 20 St. Paul, MN, CAF, Fleming Field Hanger Dance
>
>May 26-8 Fort Smith, AR, WWIIHRS, Living History Display and Public Bat
>tles
>
>June ???  Dyersburg, TN, WWIIAPS, Airshow
>
>July 27-Aug 2 Oshkosh, WI, CAF and WWIIAPS, Annual Fly-in
>
>Aug 4-6 Aurora, IL, WWIIHRS, Living Histpry Display and Public Battles
>
>Aug 4-6 St. Paul, MN, CAF, 18th Annual Airpower Display at Holman Field
>
>August ??  Worth, IL, WWIIHRS, Living History Display and public battles
>
>Aug 11-12 Tinley Park, IL, WWIIHRS, Living History Displays and Public
>Battles
>
>Sept 2-4 Jefferson, IN, WWIIAPS, Clark County Airshow
>
>Sep 5-10 St. Louis, MO, WWIIAPS, 8th Air Force Reunion, Adams Mark Hot
>el
>
>Sep ??  Westmont, IL , WWIIHRS, Living History Displays and Public Battl
>es
>
>Oct 6-8 Yorkville, IL, WWIIHRS, WWIIHRS National Battle and meeting
>
>If there are other events that people would like to see added to the
>schedule please let me know.  Also, please feel free to repost this list
>to other mailing lists--send it to friends etc.  I have more information
>on most of these events so please contact me directly for more
>information.  It will be a great summer!!  All I am thinking right now
>for may is Kansas City and chuga chuga chuga chuga.
>
>TAS
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
>*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
>*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
>*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
>*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
>************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Apr 1995 to 3 Apr 1995
***********************************************

From <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:owner-WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Tue Apr  4 23:14:16 1995
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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 3 Apr 1995 to 4 Apr 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 62 messages totalling 2562 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Raid on Cabanatuan #10
  2. SS Membership (7)
  3. USS JUNEAU/CLAA-52  R.I.P.
  4. Das Boot (3)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 04-04-95
  6. Japanese midget subs at Pearl (3)
  7. Re[2]: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule (2)
  8. How to win the war in Europe in 1940...
  9. INF: Nevada at Pearl Harbor
 10. HIST ... SS book
 11. Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.
 12. National Observance of V-E  Day - Kansas City , MO (2)
 13. Marine 1st Div. - Jim again
 14. VJ and VE day celebrations....
 15. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
 16. Wehrmacht Atrocities
 17. WWII Movies (2)
 18. Why Save Iwo for Emergencies?
 19. Hitler's Body
 20. Save one for Mainz (2)
 21. History: Enfield Rifles (Long)
 22. Tactics (?) Assurance
 23. Patton biography (2)
 24. Dudley Morton
 25. World War II Movies (2)
 26. Sinsheim Museum, GE
 27. Folgore Division at El Alamein
 28. WW II Movies :Castlekeep
 29. MEDIA:Beer Helps Win War
 30. MEDIA:Hitler's Body
 31. MEDIA:Hitler's Body Part 2
 32. MEDIA:Old Bomb Found
 33. MEDIA:Dachau Freed (2)
 34. MEDIA:Okinawa
 35. MEDIA:Ernie Pyle Excerpts
 36. WANT:For Sale
 37. Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?
 38. new user
 39. Sgt. Rock
 40. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-APR-1945
 41. Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply (2)
 42. Save one for Mainz -Reply
 43. Sinsheim Museum, GE -Reply
 44. V-J/V-P/V-A Day - My Two Cents

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 22:20:54 -0700
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #10

INSTALLMENT TEN IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
4/3/95


January 26, 1945. (Late Afternoon
-----------------------------------

American Guerrilla leader Major Bob Lapham meets with U.S. 6th Army
Headquarters and informs G2 (Intelligence) officers, Colonel White and
Major Rowale that the Japanese are still holding over 500 Allied POW's
near Cabanatuan City. The camp is 27 miles to the east, 25 miles behind
enemy lines. The guerrillas have reason to believe, based on past
observation of this camp (and others) that the Japanese will either move
the POW's or execute them. The advancing Americans may not reach
their comrades in time. G2 decides that a rescue must be effected
immediately. But, in 1945, there were no helicopters and trucks or jeeps
would produce too much noise. Airborne troops could be spotted even
in a night jump, and the POW's would surely be slaughtered. A raid of
any type must be done by foot soldiers.

Army Ranger commander Lt. Colonel Mucci is called into the meeting
and told that his men have been selected to launch a liberation raid.
Two small teams of Alamo Scouts will be sent ahead to gather up-to-the
minute information. The scouts have a 27-mile march through enemy
territory and only 36 hours to accomplish their mission.

The Scout Team Leaders, Lieutenants Tom Rounsaville and Bill Nellist
are tall, rugged type individuals. One team is composed of two
Caucasians, one Native American Indian and two Filipino-Americans.
The other is composed of four Caucasian and two Filipino-Americans.

Lt. Col. Mucci returns to his Ranger Headquarters and selects C Company,
commanded by Captain Prince and Part of F Company, commanded by a
tall, easy-going Irish-American, Lieutenant John Murphy to go the
mission.

Lt. Col. Mucci then gives a dramatic and emotional speech to the raiding
party. He tells them, "Get them (POW's) out alive!" and "I don't want
any damned atheists to go on this mission... we are all going to
church... you had better get down on your knees and pray, dammit! Don't
fake it! I mean pray! I want you to swear on oath before God. Swear
you'll die fighting rather than let any harm come to those POW's!"

Mucci plans to lead his raiding party with Captain Prince second in
command. After considerable debate and against his better judgment,
Mucci permits his surgeon, Captain Fisher, to join his mission.

Army Headquarters will not let Major Lapham guide the Rangers. His
knowledge of guerrilla activity over the past 3 years is much too
valuable to chance his loss. Guerrilla Captain Joson will guide the
Rangers to Captain Pajota whose units are standing by for orders in the
area near the POW camp.


--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario, E-Mail:
Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 02:02:11 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: SS Membership

Peter Hidas wrote:

>WEre all members of the SS also members of the Nazi party? Was
membership compulsory for them?

I hope someone else can give you a more definitive answer, as I would like to
know myself. Gerald Reitlinger, in *The SS: Alibi of a Nation 1922-1945*,
quotes Himmler as referring to the SS as a "party organization," which to me
implies that it was compulsory. But a couple of pages later, the same work
points out that Paul Hausser, who founded the SS officer cadet school and
later became a tank commander, was not a member of the party, which suggests
it may not have been compulsory. (Or maybe just that Himmler recognized a
competent officer when he saw one.)

As I say, I hope someone else here knows something more definite.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 01:30:33 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS JUNEAU/CLAA-52  R.I.P.

> Wanting to hear from anyone concerning U.S.S. JUNEAU
> (CL-52)..anti-aircraft cruiser..sunk Friday, 13 November 1942..during
> battle of Guadalcanal..crew of 700..150 survived sinking..ten ultimately
> lived..with the passing of Mr ART FRIEND, Miller, MO recently only three
> remain alive..book "LEFT TO DIE" by Dan Kurzman, published in Feb/Mar
> 1994 tells most of it..however research could have been better..reunion
> of JUNEAU assimilated with U.S.S.ATLANTA (CL-51), sister ship to JUNEAU
> due to number of survivors..ATLANTA scuttled to prevent capture..next
> reunion in San Antonio, TX sometime this year..
> Sincerely;
> J.J.Gardner (son of survivor H.J.Gardner, MM1C, USN-deceased)
>
Jordan,
     I lived 15 years in Juneau, and was there for the big
commemmorations in the 80s.  Steve Andereggen was -- is? -- doing
the definitive book on the sinking of the Juneau.  His research
is unbelievable.  He also did the accuratized model of the ship
in the Juneau airport.
     We've got great USS JUNEAU hats, with the ship's outline.
They had 5 (I think) members of the crew up in Juneau.  There was
still tension among some of them about what had happened on the
rafts.
     Interestingly, one of the 10 survivors was -- is? -- Zook,
the radio operator who got the msg from HORNET to break off and
join the ENTERPRISE group in the Battle of Santa Cruz.  Actually,
of course, HORNET was sending that msg to its *aircraft* (since
it couldn't handle flight operations) and JUNEAU's misunder-
standing left a hole in H's antiaircraft defenses at a critical
moment -- for which JUNEAU and her crew were shunned when they
returned to Espiritu Santo.
     There are some haunting photos of the young JUNEAU crew
smiling cockily into the camera at her commissioning, Valentine's
Day, 1942.  CAPT Swenson dropped in on Annapolis to show her off
to the middies -- one of whom was one of his sons.  He was an
interesting character:  his penchant for going off gold pros-
pecting on the beach may have been one factor in his divorce.
For sure, he was loved by his crew, and his reports and
recommendations concerning the CLAA design and concept show
a very intelligent and professional mind.
     The Alaska Historical Library has the photos.  Watch out
for the ones which had JUNEAU's sides rubbed out by the censor.
The originals do exist.
     They were a beautiful class of ship and have always been
my favorite.  Steve gave me a copy of the last known photo of
JUNEAU, apparently taken from HORNET, she is steaming at top
speed, a beautiful bone in her teeth, cutting loose at that
very moment with a 5" salvo at a Val diving at her from the
stern.  (I don't see how the Val could have missed, but we
don't realize how quickly these ships could move and maneuver,
I think.)
     I don't know where Steve is now.  SOMEwhere in Oregon,
possibly.

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:51:02 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

>WEre all members of the SS also members of the Nazi party? Was
>membership compulsory for them?
>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
>
>
Absolutely. The SS was a _party_ organisation. This caused a lot of
problems. E.g. when Himmler decided to induct many of the police force into
the SS. A lot of the civil police had joined the force so as not to be
drafted and not to have to join the party. Suddenly they found themselves
transferred from a civil-service job, with pension rights, etc. into a party
organisation with no pension rights. Many of them were very unhappy, to say
the least.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:53:36 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Das Boot

>
>Although not a "movie" but it left me with a feeling that persists to
>this day, and I have never forgotten what I saw. It was called
>"Jokhenen" (Yoh-kay-nen).
>
>Hope this has been of interest.
>
>All the best.
>
>Terry
>
>
I'll look out for it.

I'll be passing through Berlin in a week or two; any one know of a good
video store that might have a copy?

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-04-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/04 Wed.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             High-speed transport DICKERSON (APD-21), damaged by
              suicide plane, Okinawa area;
              sunk by United States forces.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa area:
             Destroyer NORMAN SCOTT (DD-690), by collision,
              23 d. 46'N., 129 d. 25'E.
             LST 70, by grounding,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 166, by grounding,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 343, by grounding,
              26 d. 00'N., 128 d. 00'E.
             LST 399, by collision,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 570, by grounding,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 44'E.
             LST 624, by grounding,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 675, by grounding,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 689, by grounding,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 736, by grounding,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 756, by grounding,
              26 d. 21'N,, 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 781 , by grounding,
              26 d. 23'N., 127 d. 44'E.
            German submarines sunk:
             U-237, U-749, and U-3003, by Army aircraft,
              Kiel, Germany.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 23:33:13 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese midget subs at Pearl

What appears to be the aft end of a Japanese midget submarine was found
outside of Pearl Harbor in the general area where the Ward sunk the
midget.  This was found about 4 years ago.  It is farther out then where
the Ward's plots were, and in much deeper water (1400 feet).  This could
very well actually be the remains of a war relic brought back after the
war for intelligence study (speculation), as this was known to have been
done with other equipment.

Besides the two midgets that were sunk inside Pearl Harbor during the
attack, one of which did get off some torpedos but did not hit anything,
there is recent evidence that a third midget did actually get off two
torpedos and they may have hit the battleships West virginia and
Oklahoma.  This was the result of computer enhanced analysis of a aerial
photograph taken by a Japanese airplane during the attack and was
announced this past December 7th.  Look back in the archives for posting
I did then that details the report.

In all fairness, I will acknowledge that not all have accepted this new
analysis as of yet.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Joseph Feld wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone could tell me, has the subemerine sunk by the
> Ward ever been found?  Also, is it true that one of the midget subs
> actually fired on an American ship at Pearl Harbor?
>
> Joseph Feld
> joefeld@mail.ic.net
> Ferndale, MI
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 07:21:32 EDT
From:    schulzr@HWENG.SYR.GE.COM
Subject: SS Membership

Peter Hidas wrote:
>Were all members of the SS also members of the Nazi party?  Was membership compulsory for them?

I can tell you that my father was NOT a member of the party, but served in the Waffen-SS in the 6th Tank Division.  Situation may have been different for officers.

Roland Schulz
schulzr@e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 07:45:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

Hello, Jodi!

I will check that out. That will be easy to find out, as I have a
copy of the SS Dienstaltersliste that will list his Party number and
SS number. Will let you know.

My understanding is that membership in the NSDAP was automatic upon
entry into the Waffen-SS, but will check it out.

More later.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:03:49 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule

>Tim,
>
>     The Aberdeen Proving Ground's Tiger I was back in Germany
>being refitted, when my son and I visited it in 1993.  Do the
>museums ever allow their equipment to participate in the events.
>I would think it would be great advertising.
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

The Kansas City event is supposed to have vehicles from the Patton Museu
m shipped from Ft. Knox, as well as from the MVCC.  Hopefully we'll be a
chieve the jammed parking lot look of the U.S. Army.  TAS



************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:02:52 +0100
From:    Ivan_Pena <demiguel@RIGEL.DEUSTO.ES>
Subject: How to win the war in Europe in 1940...

Hi again! I couldn't send or receive messages since 28th February due to
an important break down in the system.

There is a controversy moment during WWII.
In the campaign of Poland most of the German forces were attached to this
invasion, of course all the Panzer Divisions were near the border with
Poland. Only a few divisions defended Germany, more or less about 40
divisions.
France and England did an alliance with Poland and for this reason the
Polish Army resisted desperately waiting for a help from their Allies,
unfortunately this offensive from west never happened.
The only thing they wanted or they could do was concentrate troops in
Maginot Line.
After war many german officers declarated it was a miracle that France
and England didn't attack, with that offensive a large part of Germany
(overall Ruhr, the most important industrial zone in Germany) dcould have
been conquered without an important opposition and this would cause the
collapse in German Army.
The Allied forces wasted an opportunity, with 110 divisions against 40
divisions could break the Sigfrid Line, the German Army would be in a
dangerous dilemma: "continuing the invasion to finish the victorious
campaign in Poland or move most of the forces to to defend their home land.
Nevertheless Allied forces would won a great advantage, but the reaction
was very slow and poor.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:41:06 EST
From:    Roger Coon <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: INF: Nevada at Pearl Harbor

I recently finished Mason's wonderful little book _Battleship Sailor_
which included some extraordinary eyewitness testimony of the attack
on Pearl.  One of the most moving was his description of the U.S.S.
Nevada's run for the sea, in flames, with flags flying and guns firing.
Has any of the Nevada's crew ever published their memoirs of the battle?
Failing that, can anyone suggest other good sources for this incident?
I have read many of the standard histories of the battle but this one
scene has always caught my attention.
As always, thanks in advance,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:51:47 -0500
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

        Party membership probably was not compulsory.  There was a lot of
in-fighting amongst the Nazis Party officials and Himmler as well as the
Abwehr.  Everyone was spying on the others and most historians have
attributed this situation (at least in part) to Hitler.  He did not want
anyone to have too much power and control so as to pose a threat.  Most
have a view of the Gestapo being an organization that ran roughshod
wherever they wanted but this was not the case in many situations.
I am sure someone will come up with a detailed answer which will lay the
question to rest.  I wanted to suggest a book on the SS titled "The Order
of the Deaths Head"  I am sorry I don't have it with me and can't recall
the author.  It was written by a German and does not have a lot of the
rhetoric I have encountered in some other histories.
                                Kelvin Luther

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:00:50 -0400
From:    THOMPSON@LVC.EDU
Subject: HIST ... SS book

THE ORDER OF THE DEATH'S HEAD, authored by Heinz Ho"hne, is available in
English.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:48:58 -0400
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Polish forces in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

So, I won't get that other posting finished this morning......

I've only one title on hand that may be of interest to you:

HISTORY OF THE POLISH AIR FORCE, 1918-1968
     Jerzy B. Cynk.  Osprey Publishing, 1972.

a few others found on my shelves may be of related interest:

AN ARMY IN EXILE: THE STORY OF THE SECOND POLISH CORPS
     Lt-Gen W. Anders.  Macmillan, 1949.
     [a classic, if older work]

POLISH ARMOUR, 1939-1945
     Krzysztof Barbarski.  Osprey, 1982.
     [slim volume in Osprey Vanguard series, well illustrated]

NAVIES IN EXILE
     A.D. Divine.  Dutton, 1944.
     [old, wartime pub'n, but its the olnly one I own]

THE LAST OF THE WAR HORSES
     Gen K.S. Rudnicki.  Bachman & Turner, 1974.
     [cavalry general who joined Anders' forces]

THE POLISH ARMY 1939-1945
     Steven J. Zaloga.  Osprey, 1982.

oops, there's the opening bell.  bye!


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:03:31 EDT
From:    schulzr@HWENG.SYR.GE.COM
Subject: SS Membership

I spoke with my mother after my last posting and this is what she recalls:

Party membership was not required to be in either the Waffen-SS or Algemeine (spelling is wrong, but means "Black-Uniformed" SS).  She believes it may have been required for membership to the Gestapo.  She also believes that it was required if one was associated with a University, such as a student, professor, or teacher.

Membership to the party required a number years as an actual German citizen and other requirements.  My parents, uncles, grandparents did not qualify, nor did they care to, because they were forced to relocate to Germany from (Bessarabia) Romania in 1940 and did not meet minimum citizenship requirements.  One uncle and my father still did serve in the SS.

Perhaps others may find official documentation regarding this.

Regards
Roland Schulz
schulzr@hweng.syr.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 07:07:45 -0700
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese midget subs at Pearl

You wrote:

>
>I was wondering if anyone could tell me, has the subemerine sunk by the
>Ward ever been found?  Also, is it true that one of the midget subs
>actually fired on an American ship at Pearl Harbor?
>
>Joseph Feld
>joefeld@mail.ic.net
>Ferndale, MI
>
>
Joe, It seems to me that a couple of years ago I read a magazine where
they were doing some excavating someplace around the Pearl and uncovered
a midget that had been buried along with mud etc as a landfill.  Can't
remember when it was nor which midget it was, but I can visulize the
picture.  Trying to remember details like that is treading on dangered
ground.  My MIND!.

Larry Godek
W0OGH@IX.NETCOM.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:29:43 -0500
From:    Dick Kimberly <kimberly@KCMETRO.CC.MO.US>
Subject: National Observance of V-E  Day - Kansas City , MO

Tim Scherrer mentioned this event and I have begun to check it out and
will add postings as information comes available to me.  One thing is
certain - this is going to be a big gathering.  Here goes.

The dates are May 5 - 7, and the event is located at many points in the
KC area as well as neighboring Kansas.  Developing an earlier thread, the
Patton museum is shipping a M-7 (self propelled arty piece), an M-10 tank
destroyer, an M-3 Steward, and an M-4 Sherman.  These will be in KC or
Ft. Leavenworth.

The Confederate Air Force is providing "all the favorites" or the "full
package"

A contact is the National Archives - Central Plains Region, located at
2312 E Bannister Rd., Kansas City  64131.

Contacts are in the following order
1.  Diana Duff
2.  Mark Corriston
3.  Reed Whitaker

The telephone number is (816) 926-1822 although I used 926-6934 for public
and educational programs, and got in.

I have more information coming my way and will post it when it arrives.

Dick
                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 325 6342
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:01:15 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Marine 1st Div. - Jim again

  I spoke with Jim again. He affirms that Carmen was shot by a guy named
Palleri (sp) who was "a real one". Says Jim, before Peleliu, Palleri had
piles but kept quiet all the while aggravating them until just before
the landing he went on sick-call and spent time in a hospital while the
rest of his unit was fighting the Japanese. He says the guy was Shanghai'd
right after the accidental shooting. 'Whisked from the unit. Jim's phone
number, for anyone who wants to call him, is (708) 325-6382. He stops
in Rhode Island to meet with family. He says we'll go to Duffy's Tavern
outside of Wickford when he stops by next time. 'Have some beer, tell
some stories. Tripp Allyn in Newport, and/or Joe Barone in Middletown,...
I'll let ya know when he's in town.

'Regards, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:32:59 -0500
From:    "Mr. Orange" <M680300B@EDINBORO.EDU>
Subject: Re: VJ and VE day celebrations....

        Are there any VE/VJ Day celebrations to take place in France?
   Anyone have some info?

--Mike

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:47:36 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Revision: 1 April 1995
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Addition of new material concerning grammar, spelling, etc. and spamming,
moved some stuff around, and corrected my own misspellings!  - Joe]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  My name is
Joe Barone and I am the listowner.  I can be reached at m1b@ssd.ray.com.

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
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        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
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line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

ADMIN For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
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      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives
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idea to quote portions of a previous message that you are responding to.
This does not mean that the entire message with headers should be included,
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        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
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|       Not everyone on the mailing list will have the same command of
| the English language.  As a result, syntax, grammar, and spelling of
| individuals will greatly vary.  However, this mailing list was created
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| refrain from posting a message TO THE LIST that merely corrects another
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| your face if you haven't done your homework.


        Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
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        Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is little
or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't attribute
to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following topics are
discouraged:

        1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
           intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Coventry to occur in order
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        While on the topic of touchy subjects and flame wars, there are
a few individuals in the world who delight in posting the most assinine
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|       There is also a new Internet phenomenon called "spamming" which
| is appearing with greater frequency.  Spamming is the act of sending
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

        One of the features of the listserver is the database search.  This
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it will send you an index of all articles in the archive that deal with
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        One member of the list used the old example that accompanied this
introduction and notified me that it didn't work.  Below is the correct
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//      JOB Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
search WEAP: in WWII-L
index
/*

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but they are thorough and will help you get what you want.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Several members of the list provide daily updates of events that
occurred 50 years ago.  Much of this information is archived.  Below are
the addresses for retrieving archives of this information and much more.

WWII-L ARCHIVES:
  1. ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu in directory WWII_L

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES is archived at two sites:

  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory /pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in
        /pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology

50 YEARS AGO TODAY is archived at:

  1. ftp.netcom.com, in directory /pub/jbd/www

50 YEARS AGO OF NAVAL ACTIVITIES and other historical goodies:

  1. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory /pub/history and all subdirectories

        To access these archives using ftp, connect to the desired system,
enter "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, then enter your Internet mail
address when prompted for password.  You can then cd to the appropriate
directories.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Copyright issues are a major problem on the Internet.  As far as
I'm concerned, messages sent to this list are the intellectual property
of the person who sent the message.  Members should not freely relinquish
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then I will assume that the material is still owned of the poster and that
the list is the custodian of the information.  My policy will be to allow
material to be reproduced only if it is done free of charge and is not
altered in any form unless, of course, the owner has other requirements
that would supersede this policy.

        This is my first draft so I would appreciate any feedback from
members.  My intent is to prevent people from acquiring gain, financial
or otherwise, from information that appears on this list without getting
the consent from the authors of that information.  If anyone can word
this intent better than I did above, I would like to hear from you.
Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I haven't sufficiently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish
the job. :-)  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:05:12 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WWII Reenactment and Event Schedule

> >     The Aberdeen Proving Ground's Tiger I was back in Germany
> >being refitted, when my son and I visited it in 1993.  Do the
> >museums ever allow their equipment to participate in the events.
> >I would think it would be great advertising.
> >
> >Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>
> The Kansas City event is supposed to have vehicles from the Patton Museu
> m shipped from Ft. Knox, as well as from the MVCC.  Hopefully we'll be a
> chieve the jammed parking lot look of the U.S. Army.  TAS
>
> *  Tim A. Scherrer


The Tiger from Aberdeen was gone in 1989 when I went to see it too.
It was to be gone for a couple of years to be restored and then 5 more
years to be displayed in Germany.  When I got to Germany I found it at
the Sinsheim Auto & Technik Museum in Sinsheim, Germany.  Its near
Stuttgart as I recall.  They have one of the finest collections of
military vehicles in Europe and well worth the visit.

The tiger is a cutaway example so I don't think it will be too hot for
re-enacting purposes but it is pretty impressive to look at.  The
curator of the Aberdeen PG Museum told me that a building was being
built to house the museum and the tiger was going to be something of a
center piece and kept inside the museum.  When I saw it at Sinsheim it
dawned on me why it was going inside :-)

Of course, if I had a Tiger I, I would build a house around it too.  I
love that vehicle....

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:26:01 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

Peter Hidas wrote:
>Were all members of the SS also members of the Nazi party?  Was membership comp
ulsory for them?

While doing some research using SS Dienstalterslisten (SS Rank lists
of the SS officer corps showing many details including party number) I
was surprised to see a number of high ranking officers who were not
party members.  In fact the back of the book has a number of charts
and graphs that show some statistics about the SS.  One of those
charts was a breakdown of officers by rank and how many were party
members and how many were not.  It showed (to me) that if you wanted
to rise in the ranks then it was a good idea to be a party member.

As I recall there was even one entry where an officer not only had no
party number but no SS number either  - in an SS rank list!  I know a
number of Army officers were transferred into the Waffen SS to provide
a professional backbone to its officer corps so perhaps that is what
we have here but I understood that they became SS officers in every
respect (including SS membership number).

If I have the presents of mind to dig it out tonight, I will post that
chart from the 9 Nov. 1938 edition of the SS DAL on the list.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:12:59 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: National Observance of V-E  Day - Kansas City , MO

> Tim Scherrer mentioned this event and I have begun to check it out and
> will add postings as information comes available to me.  One thing is
> certain - this is going to be a big gathering.  Here goes.
>
> The dates are May 5 - 7, and the event is located at many points in the
> KC area as well as neighboring Kansas.  Developing an earlier thread, the
> Patton museum is shipping a M-7 (self propelled arty piece), an M-10 tank
> destroyer, an M-3 Steward, and an M-4 Sherman.  These will be in KC or
> Ft. Leavenworth.
>
> The Confederate Air Force is providing "all the favorites" or the "full
> package"

In case anyone is interested, the Southern Minnesota Wing is PROBABLY
sending at least the B-25 "Miss Mitchell" to this event and possibly the
PBY Catalina, too.  The B-25 will definitely be ready, but the PBY is
questionable.

Of course technically the B-25 is questionable too, because we haven't got
a firm commitment or contract yet, but we're working on it and there's a lot
of optimism about going.

So if you see a silver B-25 with lotsa guns and yellow and blue stripes on
the tail, that's the beast you've been hearing me babble about for the last
five years :-).  Stop by, visit the airplane, visit the PX and part with all
your excess cash so we can keep her flying, the PBY in restoration and the
P-51C in rebuild.

Shameless plug ended.  :-)

This event sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.  I've been in contact with
the organizers for a while and there's a lot more going on than seems even
possible... Troop trains, gala movie premieres, USO shows and dances, etc.
etc. etc.  Whee!

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:36:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <ECZ5JXJ@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Das Boot

The whole question of answering Das Boot w/Heimat & the Nasty Girl brings up
another interesting question, I think.  Me, I would put NG w/the generation of
films produced in Germany from the 70s onwards, after a group of German film-
makers had a famous conference in the 60s saying they were a new generation,
not to be confused w/the Golden Age 20s or the Nazis, who were going to make
true German films about their lives now, i.e., from the 60s forwards.  I think
NG is a classic example of trying to peel back the present hypocracy, not
actively engaging the past as past.  Compare German films w/French.  I don't
think there is a GErman equivalent to the nonromanticized French films such as
Lacombe, Lucien or Uranus that come out every so often, that actually recreate
the past.  In German films, people in the present talk about the effects of the
past on their present lives, not quite the same thing.

Heimat is another story.  it seems to be one of the building blocks of the atti
tude that says that everyone was just a pawn to be moved at will; the powers in
charge were so overwhelming that no one could do anything except try to get by.
(The film from E Germany that someone mentioned seems to be part of this group.
And it makes a lot of sense that E Germany would produce such a film--their
whole ideology was that they were innocent victems of the fascist West.) Heimat
is a big documentary on the way it was, in a tiny village in the sticks.  One
might ask how demographically representative that village was for the country
as a whole at the time.  Heimat was VERY popular when it came out; it was on TV
everyone saw it and everyone could say, yes, that's the way it was, & since
that's the way it was, how could anyone have expected us to act any differently
than the way we did?  We were powerless.  That's one of the main reasons why
it's never been picked up over here.  It makes a lot of nonGermans very antsy.
Whereas, the Sorrow & the Pity made in France & really trying to show how con-
flicted and messy the whole French experience was, & really dealing w/the col-
laboration was made for French TV & never shown, because it was so honest.
Only after many years of struggle was the S&P shown in French theaters, it
still hasn't made it to TV--every government since the early 70s when it was
made has said that the French people as a whole are not ready to see it. But it
came out in the US as soon as it was finished and has been on video since there
has been video.

Which is a very long way around to my real question, I hope you're still here.
It's all true, everything that anyone says, Germans could have individually
acted--in 1938, in those little Heimat villages, they didn't have to beat up &*
disposses their Jewish neighbors, who lived in those villages & not just in big
cities.  it's also true, that once drafted, then what?  Resist? Go where? in
'38, at the end of the Depression, who wants one more young man?  And all those
people in the East, yes it was awful in early '45.  EXCEPT . . . that it had
been even awfuller, for a longer time, for many, many families in countries
farther east than Konigsberg or Danzig, even farther West as well.  So members
the jury, since it's all true, WHAT ABOUT THE ART IN RUSSIA?

Are you following the story of the two exhibits? in Petersburg, at the Hermi-
tage & in Moscow at the Pushkin?  The Russian Army removed to Russia a great
of art from Germany--some of it belonging to people from nonGerman countries
that the German army had already taken from their home countries back to Ger-
many.  The Russians have hidden their treasures for 50 yrs, never admitting
that they had them.  Now, hey presto, they are mounting big shows, w/catalogues
& press conferences.  A lot of what they have, people know who it belonged to &
there are still heirs.  In the Fall the Russians are going to mount a big show
of drawings that originally belonged to a man from Rotterdam--he still has heir
s.   In the Spring they are going to exhibit the Trojan Gold that Heinrich
Schlieman dug up, the mask of Agamemnon, all that famous stuff.  The Germans
want it all back--they say that Russia signed a treaty agreeing that countries
wouldn't keep war booty.  The Russians say the USSR signed the treaty & they're
not bound by it.  That the Germans were so destructive of Russian culture that
nothing will ever make up for it.  The Pushkin museum director calls her show,
"Twice Saved"--once from Germany--it's all German stuff--and once from destru-
ction--if the Russians hadn't kept the stuff in basements, it wouldn't need to
be saved from destruction.  People in Holland & Hungary want their cultural
patrimony BACK, they don't care who took it or why.  The Russian parliament is
on the point of passing a law that decrees anything brought back from Germany
at the end of the war stays in Russia. Period.  Some of the stuff is really,
really, a big deal.  Who knows how long Russian would have kept it while pre-
tending they didn't have it.  Germany in effect is saying, fifty years later,
what happened fifty years ago is over, so give us back our things.  Russia is
in effect saying, it will never be over, it was your fault, we have it & posses
ion is 9/10ths of the law.  2d countries are siding w/Germany to get their own
back.  So all of you Heimat watchers, what do you think?  Who gets to keep the
Degas that everyone says is one of the most important pictures he ever made,
where the modern starts, etc. etc.?  Who gets to keep one of the finest drawing
collections of Europe, put together by a Dutchman and now to be found in Moscow
?  Do the Germans deserve to be punished--the Schlieman Treasure was found
by a German, kept in the National Museum in Berlin, in a basement for safe-
keeping & taken by the Red Army because they knew what it was--and Russia keep
everything or should Russia give it all back since events were so overwhelming
that present day Germans shouldn't have to be punished for events that their
grandparents couldn't control and it's too bad about all the burned Russian li-
braries, but keeping the stuff won't bring the books back & it's just not fair
to Germany?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:40:15 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities

On Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:08:17 -0500,
Ron Charlton  <RebelRon@AOL.COM> wrote:

>>From reporter Robin Gedye in London:
>
snip snip snip

>War of extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht 1941 to 1944, staged in
>Hamburg, uses a wealth of documents and unpublished photographs to prove the
>army acted under orders in pursuing mass murder policies in the Balkans and
>Russia.
>
>The exhibition, which opened last week in conjunction with a 700 page book on
>the Wehrmacht's atrocities breaks a post-war conspiracy of silence over the
>conscript's contribution to Hitler's war.
>
Ron,
 What is the name of this 700 page book?? Is it the same as the exhibition
name?
   Thanks,
    Mike Oaks
   moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:21:37 -0700
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Discussion of various moviestars'military service often comes up.

Now, what seems the definitive book on the subject has just been published.

        WHEN THE STARS WENT TO WAR: Hollywood And World War Two
                byRoy Hoopes
                        Random House, NY 1995.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:07:00 EST
From:    "Eliot K. Friedman" <ekfriedm@AEC1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Why Save Iwo for Emergencies?

    Several recent posts described the capture of Iwo Jima as necessary to
    provide an emergency landing strip for crippled B-29s unable to reach
    their original base (at Tinian, I suppose), as well as to provide a
    base for shorter range fighter escort.

    Once Iwo had been secured, why didn't _ALL_ B-29 missions originate
    from there, shortening the trip (and presumably increasing the bomb
    load)?  Was Iwo just too small to accomodate them all?

    El

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:47:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Body

Hello, Jim!

Thanks for the note. Will try to add what I know to this.


> I saw an article in today's paper about this.  It said that Russia
> (Soviets) in 1970 excavated Hitler's body, as well as Eva Brawn, and the

    That is true. The remains of both bodies were excavated and
reburied at least twice while Stalin was alive, because he wanted to
be very certain that they were. During these processes, all the
individuals who were in any way connected with the original locating
of the bodies were gathered together with all the evidence to
reassure Stalin that they were in fact the bodies of Hitler and Eva
Braun.

    The bodies were buried first in an area outside of Berlin in
Karlshorst, dug up again, on Stalin's orders, reexamined, reburied in
Magdeburg on the Elbe, where they lay for 25 years. Then dug up
again and this time obliterated. Just how this was done, is not
clear. Anyway, no trace is left of them.

    However, after the fall of Communism, it has been proven that the
dental work of Hitler is still preserved in a forensic institute in
Moscow. This has been shown on television.

    Stalin was also a collector of Hitler memorabilia, if you didn't
know that. He ordered anything that belonged to Adolf that was
captured intact to be brought back to Moscow for safe-keeping. His
white dinner jacket, that is sometimes shown in documentaries is
there, along with the boots that went with it, and a guest register
list that was signed by many dignitaries.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    All the best.

    Terry



> Gobbel family (I think my spelling is off but I don't have time to check
> - please accept my apology) and cremated the remains of the bodies.  They
> were worried about a resurge of neo-nazism trying to get hold of their
> remains.  Article stated that the soviet army had burried these boddies
> in secret in 1945 in East. Germany.
>
> How valid this article is, I don't know.
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
> Cultural Resource Manager
> USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
> 1 Arizona Memorial Place
> Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
> ****************************************************************************
>
> On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Ron Charlton wrote:
>
> > >From my English friend --
> >
> > there are rumors that the German magazine Der Spiegel will be publishing an ar
> > ticle confirming that the Russians had Hitler's body but destroyed it.
> >
> > There was a television program about a year ago(?) speculating on this, but
> > they couldn't cofirm it at the time.
> >
> > If I get more on this I will post it.
> >
> > Ron Charlton
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:58:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz

Hello, Josef!

> Now, while I know that so much of this sounds like military folklore, I
> *do* know from many visits to local museums, and from talking to residents
> of Mainz and Wiesbaden (where I had an apartment for two years, right
> across the Rhine from Mainz) that the city was over 80% destroyed by
> bombing during the war.  This always seemed to me to be an unusually high
> percentage.

    Not really. Consider Nuremberg which was 98 percent destroyed.

> I wonder, has anyone else ever heard of "Save One for Mainz"?  I would be
> most interested if I could hear from some of the WWII veterans on this
> list.  Keep in mind, I will not be disappointed if the story is not true,
> but I really would like to hear if it is.

    No, and it is folklore.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:59:02 -0700
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: History: Enfield Rifles (Long)

Congratulations, Jon, and thanks...
        for your concise review of the LeeEn's development.

BTW: The deLisle suppressed rifle was used in combat as recently as
the Falklands War -- by advance commandos of the Royal Marines'
Special Boat Service. [SBS]

Regards - Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:10:23 -0400
From:    Scott C Stathis <stathis@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

     These are my three favorite WWII moves of all time. Listed from the best
down to third best.


Midway
Destination Tokyo
Tora! Tora! Tora!


My 2 cents...

Scott

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:43:37 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tactics (?) Assurance

The ultimate response to a smart aleck question - the truth... works every time.
Thanks again,

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:49:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

Hello, John!

Will do it.

More later.

Terry

> Terry, if you don't post the list of Patton, could you send me a copy?
>
> John E. Kollar
>
> killar@mary.fordham.edu
>
> Thanxs.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:02:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dudley Morton

Hello, John and Jodi!

Clear the Bridge by Admiral Richard Hetherington O'Kane is a first-
person account of the sub war in the Pacific.

Other first-person accounts are the memoirs of Otto Kretschmer,
Guenther Prien and Otto-Peter Cremer for the European side of the
conflict.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:58:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <ECZ5JXJ@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: World War II Movies

All this talk about movies reminded me of one that no one has mentioned so far,
THE TRAIN w/Paul Scofield & Burt Lancaster--Lancaster is the working class Re-
sistance man picked to stop a trainful of French paintings from being shipped
to Germany--it's a job to him, he could care less about the cargo.  Scofield is
the educated, noble German, "saving" the art from being brutalized by the rab-
ble.  Except of course, the paintings shouldn't need to be saved.  The last
shot is of the immobilized train, w/its doors off their hinges and all the pain
tings spilling out on the tracks.  Has anybody else seen this?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:40:45 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton biography

The most foretelling reason Patton behaved the way he did, entered West
Point, specialized in armor after WWI, always maintained his horsmanship
superior to that of the average steeple chaser, carried a side-arm at
all times, slapped a soldier in Sicily, was most feared by the Germans,
was equally feared by the Gerneral staff, rose to the rank of General
of the Army, always wore a helmet, etc. was of a very basic belief,
IMHO. It was told by Bradley in his book _A Soldier's Story_ on page
162 while explaining the slapping incident.

Gen. Bradley said, "... However, one can rationalize Patton's act
without condoning it. To George the war was not so much an ordeal as it
was the fulfillment of a destiny to which he shaped his life."

"He believed war to be a chronic ailment of mankind, destined to pursue
civilization to its grave. Since conflict was to be the inevitable lot
of all mankind, George reasoned that man should resign himself to it
and indeed welcome it as a manly challenge."

Somehow, that sounds like McNamara in the 50's/60's. Thank God, Robert
received some edification; we'ld all be smoking in Hell with the Russians.

If Bradley wrote this, and is not the only source of the same, Patton
must have come to this conclusion at an early age, perhaps in his
idealistic later teens and early 20's. The difference between his
calling and the calling of a young man today is that the horror of
war (nuclear as the case is), is too obvious an outcome to consider.

"His destiny" sounds like Patton's convenient rationalization; Lord knows
my own are convenient enough ;-) Perhaps it's not so far out of human
experience and practicality for any time.

Regards to all, Alan

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

American Legion, Post 102
I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:13:47 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

Since the topic of the SS has surfaced and there seems to be quite a bit of
expertise on line,  please permit me to make a request again for sources of
information about the Ahnenerbe, the ideological and cultural research
organization within the SS.

Any information about books or articles would be very much appreciated.

Thanks    -- Ron Charlton
                  RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:35:04 CDT
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Sinsheim Museum, GE

That museum is located off A6 'tween Heidelberg and Heilbronn. Doug Donnell
can probably give you better directions. It has been a few years since I
left the Pirmasens area.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:22:38 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Folgore Division at El Alamein

        I recently read a movie suggestion here in which the film in question
dealt with the exploits of the Folgore parachute division at El Alamein. Since
very few English-language histories have much to say about the Folgore's
performance there, symptomatic of the way the Italian participation in the war
is often downplayed unless to highlight its failures, I thought I'd provide a
brief account:

        The Folgore ("Thunderbolt") parachute division, commanded by General
Enrico Frattini, got its baptism of fire in the closing stages of the battle of
Alam Halfa in September 1942.  During Montgomery's October '42 offensive at El
Alamein it was stationed at the extreme southern end of the Axis line, where
its 3,000 men in the front line would be assaulted by some 10,000 Allied troops
backed by heavy armored support.  In keeping with the Folgore's intended role
as a paratroop unit, created for the cancelled Malta operation, it was light in
both manpower and heavy weapons-- battalions numbered only 326 men at full
strength, but each unit had a very high percentage of light machineguns and
antitank guns, the latter provided in lieu of regular artillery (since the
47-mm gun, which weighed less than 500 lbs and dismantled into six loads for
pack transport, was judged an ideal weapon for airborne troops).  They were
however ensconced in deeply-dug-in positions behind dense minefields, with
fairly heavy concentrations of supporting artillery (this included artillery
units detached from the Ariete armored division and the neighboring Pavia
infantry division).  Still, the odds faced by some of Folgore's subunits were
prohibitive, to say the least.  On the first day of the assault (which most of
the Allied histories dismiss as secondary or holding actions on the Folgore's
section of the front) the division's 11th COMPANY faced an attack by two entire
British battalions supported by 40 tanks.  The adjacent 12th Company was
assaulted by a similar size force, the entire West Kent regiment backed by a
tank battalion (Ready, "Forgotten Allies," vol 1).  Nor were these odds an
exception.  Later on in the Folgore's epic defense, 50 of the Italian
paratroopers armed only with rifles and grenades attacked some 2,000 British
troops that tried to move past them at night!! (Doronzo, "Uomini della Folgore
a El Alamein")
        The Folgore's resistance was not only valiant, it was also effective.
On the first day of the attack, Folgore and its supporting artillery knocked
out 22 of the 40 tanks that attacked the 11th Company (Faldella, "L'Italia
nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale").  On the second day, after a two-hour attack by
Free French forces, the Italians were able to count 300 bodies in front of
their positions.  On the night of October 25th an assault on a Folgore position
by the British 6th Green Howards battalion was reported as "partly successful,"
taking 45 prisoners but suffering 144 casualties in the process (Walker, "Alam
Halfa and Alamein" [part of the official history of the New Zealand forces in
the war]).  On another night soon after, another British attack made headway
and took prisoners in the early going, but the company leading the way lost 66
of its 80 men killed or wounded before the night was over (Walker).  The
Folgore's fighting spirit was demonstrated at all levels.  Of the divisions 18
majors and colonels, nine were killed and four wounded in the first three days
of the battle (Ready, "Forgotten Axis").  Perhaps the determination of the
Italian paratroopers is best illustrated by Corporal Maiolatesi, his right arm
so badly wounded it was later amputated, who nonetheless continued firing his
machinegun until he was out of ammunition, and then threw grenades with his
left hand (Doronzo).  It was this sort of defense which prompted Rommel himself
to write, in a letter home on November 1st, "the men of the Folgore are equal
to our very best." (Bragadin, "The Italian Navy In World War Two")  Not quite
what you get on the Italians in most English-language histories of the desert
war, is it?  Most of the standard works don't mention the Folgore at all.
        Raffaele Doronzo, a paratrooper who fought with the Folgore throughout
the desert campaign, left a vivid picture of the division's final hours of
resistance on November 1st.  Stationed near one of the many minefields, before
dawn Doronzo helped to evacuate a badly wounded man from an adjacent mortar
position.  Then, at first light, after "the nth rain of shells," a line of
British Sherman tanks advanced toward them.  The two paratroopers in the next
hole opened up on the following infantry with their machinegun, when, in
Doronzo's words, "one damn Sherman turned to get right at us," firing its
cannon.  Doronzo and a sergeant managed to creep up and destroy the British
tank with gasoline bottle bombs, but the resulting blast as the vehicle went up
left them both wounded as well.  Lt. Mino Nicoletti, one of the division's
"hard-chargers" (to borrow the contemporary US Marine term), dragged the
sergeant, who was unconcious and bleeding from the nose and ears, to the safety
of a foxhole.  Nicoletti, standing over Doronzo's hole, emptied his
Beretta tommygun at the advancing British, then asked Doronzo to pass him the
sergeant's pistol so he could keep on fighting.  Of the 5,000 men of the
Folgore division who had landed in North Africa that summer, only 304 officers
and men managed to rejoin Rommel's retreating army after El Alamein.  The fact
that so many wound up in British prison camps should not detract from their
valor.  Another fact which seldom makes it into the English-language books is
that, of the oft-quoted figure of 20,000 Italian prisoners taken at the battle,
roughly half were wounded.  It might also be mentioned that the mere fact that
so many Italians fell into British hands (and the percentage of prisoners to
troops employed, by the way, was not much higher for the Italians than for the
Germans in this fight) was not a reflection on their lack of courage or martial
ineptitude, but rather resulted from the fact that most of the Italian units
held their positions for nearly two weeks under unremitting pounding by a far
superior force (with complete control of the air) until the more mobile German
units alongside them retreated.
        Remnants of the Folgore, reinforced by replacements from Italy,
remained in the fighting till the bitter end in Africa.  A detachment of
Folgore formed the rearguard which comprised the last Axis troops to evacuate
Tripoli in January 1943, and the "Folgore Tunisia" combat group held off all
assaults on Takrouma hill in the Enfidaville line in April.

        Just to let you know Joe's not the only "Italian advocate" on the
list...

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:26:46 +0400
From:    The Grim Reaper <oa03-k@SERVIS.NET.TR>
Subject: WW II Movies :Castlekeep

Does anyone remember "Castlekeep" , a GI squad lead by a one-eyed Burt
Lanchaster defends a castle from Germans during Ardennes.

Ozgur Altinyay



      wwwww
    /( 0-0 )\
--oOO--(_)---OOo---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Ozgur "Kilroy"  Altinyay       |                                           |
|E-Mail : oa03-k@servis.net.tr    | "It is unfair to shoot tanks with anti-   |
|Address: A5 BLOK/47 Konutkent I  |  aircraft guns !"                         |
|         Ankara 06530 / TURKIA   |  Anonymous British Tank officer after     |
|Phone  :+0312-2402089            |  his capture in Halfaya Pass, Africa 1941 |
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Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:30:44 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Beer Helps Win War

>From the DoD Newswire 3 April 1995

:BRITAIN RECALLS BEER'S WAR ROLE WITH ``1945 ALE''

    LONDON, April 2 - A leading brewer is making a special
"1945 Ale" to honour the role of beer in keeping up the morale of
British troops in World War Two, the government's Central Office of
Information said on Sunday.
     Bass Plc will be allowed to use an official logo commemorating
the end of World War Two on its labels, and in return will contribute
20 pence ($0.32) to charity for each bottle sold.
     Wartime Premier Winston Churchill is said to have told his war
minister to make sure frontline troops got four pints of beer a week
after soldiers in Italy complained about their lot.
     Churchill's grandson Nicholas Soames, current Minister of State
for the Armed Forces applauded Bass. "My grandfather understood the
importance of beer for the morale of the troops and of the people at
home," he said.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:32:42 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Hitler's Body

>From the DoD Newswire 3 April 1995

:REPORT: USSR HAD HITLER'S BODY

   HAMBURG, Germany -- Former Soviet leaders had Adolf Hitler's
remains incinerated in 1970 out of fear they would attract neo-Nazis,
a magazine reported Sunday.
   Since the end of World War II, there have been numerous rumors
about Hitler's fate. Historians say he shot and killed himself in his
Berlin bunker on April 30, 1945.
   The Hamburg-based Der Spiegel said Hitler's remains and those of
his wife, Eva Braun, were excavated from graves in Magdeburg near
Berlin in April 1970 on KGB orders. The remains of Nazi propaganda
minister Josef Goebbels, his wife, Magda, and their six children also
were taken.
   Spiegel, citing a secret file, said the bodies had been buried by
the Soviets at a site they occupied in Magdeburg in February 1946.
   In early 1970, Spiegel said, then-KGB chief Yuri Andropov learned
the graves existed. The report said Andropov wrote a letter to
Communist Party Chief Leonid Brezhnev on March 13, 1970, suggesting
the graves be excavated and the remains cremated.
   Brezhnev concurred, and the bones were incinerated and destroyed
during the night of April 4-5, 1970, Spiegel said.
   Andropov's former chief of staff, Vladimir Kruchkov, himself later
head of the KGB and now retired in Moscow, confirmed the file's
authenticity, Spiegel said.
   "Yuri Andropov wrote the most important phrases with his own
hand," Spiegel quotes Kruchkov as saying.
   American historian William L. Shirer, in "The Rise and Fall of the
Third Reich," wrote Hitler shot and killed himself on the afternoon
of April 30, 1945. Eva Braun swallowed poison to die with him.
   Shirer said the remains of Hitler and Braun were carried to the
garden next to the bunker and placed in a shell hole blown into the
ground by advancing Soviet troops, soaked with gasoline and burned.
   Russian artillery fire eradicated any remaining bones, Shirer
wrote.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:35:13 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Hitler's Body Part 2

>From the DoD Newswire 4 April 1995

:REPORT: HITLER REMAINS BURNED

   HAMBURG, Germany -- Soviet troops buried the body of Adolf
Hitler after World War II, then dug it up in 1970 and incinerated it
on KGB orders, a German magazine reports.
   Since the end of the war, there have been numerous rumors about
Hitler's fate. Historians say he shot and killed himself in his
Berlin bunker on April 30, 1945.
   Citing a secret file, Der Spiegel reported Sunday that Soviets
buried the bodies of Hitler and his wife, Eva Braun, at a site near
Berlin they occupied in February 1946.
   In 1970, then-KGB chief Yuri Andropov learned the graves existed,
the magazine said. Fearing the site would attract neo-Nazi pilgrims,
he wrote to Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev suggesting the graves be
excavated and the remains cremated, according to the report.
   Brezhnev concurred, and the bones were incinerated and destroyed
during the night of April 4-5, 1970, Der Spiegel said.
   Burned with the bodies of Hitler and Braun were the remains of
Nazi propaganda minister Josef Goebbels, his wife, Magda, and their
six children, the report said.
   Vladimir Kruchkov, Andropov's former chief of staff who later
became head of the KGB, confirmed the file's authenticity, Der
Spiegel said.
   American historian William L. Shirer, in "The Rise and Fall of the
Third Reich," wrote Hitler shot and killed himself on the afternoon
of April 30, 1945. Eva Braun swallowed poison to die with him.
   Shirer said the remains of Hitler and Braun were carried to the
garden next to the bunker and placed in a shell hole blown into the
ground by advancing Soviet troops, soaked with gasoline and burned.
   Soviet artillery fire eradicated any remaining bones, Shirer
wrote.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:37:50 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Old Bomb Found

>From the DoD Newswire 3 April 1995

:WWII BOMB FOUND IN ENGLAND

   PORTLAND, England -- An army bomb squad worked Sunday to
defuse a half-ton German bomb dating to World War II as some of the
nearly 4,000 evacuees were treated to music from the war years.
   British media reports called the operation in Portland, on
England's southwest coast, the country's largest planned evacuation
since the war.
   The 1,100-pound bomb, believed to have been dropped by a German
bomber during a July 1941 raid, was buried beneath a soccer field.
Diggers surveying for mineral deposits found the bomb two weeks ago.
Unexploded leftovers from the Luftwaffe's blitz are regularly
found in England, but they usually are smaller bombs or anti-aircraft
shells.
   Maj. Nick Clark, directing an eight-man bomb squad from the army's
Royal Engineers, said Sunday the work was expected to take another
day.
   The team used a remote-controlled robot Saturday to drill into the
bomb shell. Capt. Mike Lobb removed the fuse cap and injected the
fuse with a saline solution to prevent electricity from passing
through the wire.
   On Sunday, Lobb bored holes into various parts of the shell to
"steam out" the 54-year-old explosives inside.
   Meanwhile, many of the evacuees were staying with friends or
relatives while several hundred more camped out at a mobile home
park, where Saturday's live entertainment including singers of 1940s
nostalgia.
   Nine people refused to move out. About 200 officers patrolled the
evacuated area to prevent looting, and said those remaining would be
arrested if they went outside.
   One of those staying, 65-year-old Martin Rogers, said he didn't
feel threatened by the bomb. "A quarry crew with heavy machinery
couldn't set the thing off, so I don't think there's anything to
worry about."
   He said the find had stirred anti-German sentiments in many
Portland residents, saying that his German wife Lore, also 65, had
come home in tears several times because people directed anti-German
insults at her.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:40:09 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Dachau Freed

>From the DoD Newswire 4 April 1995

: 50 YRS. AGO: DACHAU CAMP FREED

   DACHAU, Germany -- Nothing the American infantrymen
encountered battling across Europe and into the German heartland
steeled them for what they found at Dachau.
   After storming through the gates of the concentration camp near
the sparkling snow-capped Bavarian Alps, some of the GIs wept.
   Parked at a railway siding were 40 freight cars with 2,000 corpses
crammed inside. Thousands more bodies were stacked like cordwood near
the crematorium, because the SS guards had run out of coal to burn
them.
   Starving survivors straggled out of filthy barracks to hug the
Americans. Some sickly prisoners dropped dead before they could touch
the hands of their saviors.
   "We'd seen just about everything in combat. But not this. I saw
things at Dachau that I have been trying to repress for the past 50
years," said Scott Corbett of Providence, R.I., one of the GIs who
liberated Dachau on April 29, 1945.
   Soldiers' tears were shed not just at Dachau that spring, but also
at Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, Sachsenhausen, Ravensbrueck, Mauthausen
and other camps liberated in the month before the Nazis surrendered
May 8.
   Auschwitz, in Poland, was overrun by the Soviet army on Jan. 26,
1945. But most camps were in the heart of Germany, so many survivors
had to wait for weeks as Allied troops fought their way toward them.
Eighteen million people -- Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, the
handicapped, POWs, Jehovah's Witnesses, leftists, artists -- had been
locked up in some 520 concentration camps and subcamps across
occupied Europe, according to generally accepted estimates used to
teach German school children about Nazi crimes.
   Eleven million, about half of them Jews gassed in extermination
camps, never saw the outside world again.
   During April and early May ceremonies marking the 50th anniversary
of the shutting down of Dachau and other camps, elderly liberators
will be reunited with prisoners they saved.
   Ohrdruf, a Buchenwald subcamp in the Thuringian woods, was the
first camp to be discovered by American troops, who forced their way
in on April 4, 1945.
   Gen. George Patton's tanks clanked into Buchenwald, on a hill
overlooking Weimar, a week later. The Americans found 32,000
survivors and piles of bodies.
   They also found lampshades made from human skin.
   About 30,000 inmates were freed at the Bergen-Belsen camp near
Hanover by British soldiers on April 15.
   Josef Kramer, the camp commandant, gave the British a "tour of
inspection." He acted as if there was nothing wrong with what they
saw -- 35,000 bodies piled and strewn around the camp.
   The last camp liberated by the Americans was at Mauthausen,
Austria. When GIs overran it on May 5, 1945, they found nearly 10,000
bodies in a mass grave and 110,000 survivors.
   The Dachau camp's barbed-wire fences, watchtowers and main gate
are still standing. It is a memorial to more than 36,000 prisoners
who died there from 1933 to 1945, and a tribute to the American
soldiers who saved 33,000.
   The rescue at Dachau came after the 42nd and 45th infantry
divisions had battled from Alsace, in France, across southern Germany
toward Munich. They raced to Dachau, 6 miles north of Munich, after
an escapee from the camp told them about the appalling conditions.
   The Americans could not believe their eyes. Their first discovery
was the 40 rail cars that had arrived a few days earlier from
Buchenwald. Some of the 2,000 dead on the train had died from hunger
and disease. Others were shot in the head. The victims had been
hauled from Buchenwald to keep them from being rescued by Patton's
troops.
   Some GIs cried. Others vomited.
   Corbett, at the time a 31-year-old sergeant, arrived at the train
in a jeep with some buddies. An American tank roared up and its
commander got out.
   "The tank commander heard a faint cry in one of the train cars. He
climbed inside and came out carrying a little wisp of a man. That was
the only survivor," Corbett said in a telephone interview from his
home in Providence.
   GIs then shot their way into the camp. The 42nd, nicknamed the
Rainbow Division, entered through the main gate. Men of the 45th
Division stormed in through the SS guards' compound on the other
side.
   According to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, U.S. documents
reveal the GIs were so outraged by what they found that some gunned
down SS guards rather than take them prisoner. Estimates of the slain
range from 30 to 130.
   About 700,000 people visit the Dachau memorial each year, about
half of them Germans. Most of the German visitors are children on
school trips.
   Dachau was Hitler's first concentration camp, opened March 22,
1933, and the next-to-last shut down. It has been called the Nazis'
"school for murder" because it was the prototype for all camps that
followed.
   Many SS medical experiments were developed at Dachau: injecting
prisoners with malaria, leaving them naked in the snow to freeze,
subjecting them to a pressure-chamber test that drove them insane if
it did not kill them.
   Max Mannheimer, a 75-year-old Czech Jew, managed to survive Dachau
and several other camps.
   He was sent to the Theresienstadt camp in January 1943, to
Auschwitz the following month, to Dachau in August 1944 and to
Karlsfeld -- a subsidiary camp of Dachau -- three weeks after that.
   Mannheimer was forced to load murdered Karlsfeld prisoners onto a
donkey cart and take them to Dachau for cremation.
   "I did this twice a week. There was always an SS guard walking
next to me, so there was no question of trying to escape," recalls
Mannheimer, an artist who lives in Munich.
   Mannheimer got typhoid fever and was loaded onto a freight train
with other prisoners for some unknown destination, probably his
intended death.
   He was rescued when American soldiers stopped the train in a rural
area just east of Munich on April 30, 1945, the same day Adolf Hitler
committed suicide.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:43:54 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Okinawa

>From the DoD Newswire 3 April 1995

Ben Frank is mentioned prominently!

:VETERANS REMEMBER WWII BATTLE

   WASHINGTON -- The U.S. invasion of Okinawa began on a sunny
Easter Sunday, almost peacefully, with surprisingly little of the
bloodshed, death and mud yet to come during the 82 days of the last
great battle of World War II.
   "The question on everybody's lips was, 'Where are the Japanese?"'
Marine veteran Benis M. Frank recalled at Saturday's national
commemoration of the landing's 50th anniversary.
   The emotional gathering of about 500 veterans and relatives,
officials and honor guard units was held on the Potomac River shore
beside the Pentagon, facing the monuments of Washington.
   Frank, a 20-year-old combat Marine on "L (Landing) Day," April 1,
1945, is now chief historian of the Marine Corps.
   None of the U.S. soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines engaged in
the massive amphibious operation realized at the time that Japanese
forces "by design had left the beaches undefended," said Army
Undersecretary Joe R. Reeder.
   By nightfall, more than 50,000 American soldiers and Marines were
ashore in a large beachhead.
   But their euphoria faded as the Japanese defense plan unfolded
later that week: "A relentless island campaign of attrition, well
away from the invasion beaches, contesting every foot with carefully
laid out, dug in, and interlocking positions," as Gen. Carl E. Mundy
Jr., the current U.S. Marine Corps commandant, described it in his
speech.
   For nearly three months, U.S. forces "scratched their way across
Okinawa's 60 miles of steep ridges, sheer cliffs, deep draws and
slimy, sucking mud," Reeder said. "For the sailors offshore it was
day after day, night after night, wave after wave of terrifying
kamikaze attacks that sank 36 ships and damaged another 368."
   Okinawa cost 13,241 American lives, including 8,343 sailors, coast
guardsmen and Marines, the highest single campaign toll in U.S. naval
history.
   At the end, "more than 200,000 on both sides lay dead, more
American blood than had been shed at Gettysburg" and many times as
many Japanese as killed earlier at Iwo Jima, Reeder said.
   U.S. Army veteran Alejandro R. Renteria Ruiz of Visalia, Calif.,
one of the Okinawa campaign's seven living Medal of Honor winners,
joined Frank in inspecting combined honor guards at the
commemoration.
   Ruiz was cited for heroism beyond the call of duty for
single-handedly braving direct fire to wipe out an enemy pillbox,
saving many fellow soldiers.
   To minimize strain on their postwar alliance, the U.S. and
Japanese governments have held diplomatic discussions about their
World War II anniversary observances. U.S. official commemorations
stress appreciation to U.S. veterans.
   The event had no foreign guest list but a television team from
NHK, Japan's public broadcasting system, filmed it for a coming
documentary to be called "Hiroshima, an American Perspective."
   Shiyo Migita, a coproducer of the documentary, told a reporter
that recent controversy over whether the U.S. atomic bombings that
ended the Pacific War were justified indicate "it is very important
for Japanese to better understand the American perspective."
   Reeder told the veterans at the commemoration: "America and Japan
each left part of their soul on that island. Today America and Japan
are friends and allies ... working together to strengthen world peace
-- a peace that must have seemed very distant to you who fought so
fiercely on Okinawa."
   He told the veterans they are the "benchmark for bravery, for
heroism, for selfless sacrifice" for all service members since World
War II.
   "When I served in uniform, you were my role models," said the
undersecretary, a 1970 U.S. Military Academy graduate who has pursued
a legal career in the military and in private practice.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:45:52 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Ernie Pyle Excerpts

>From the DoD Newswire 3 April 1995

:EXCERPTS FROM ERNIE PYLE

   Excerpts of World War II dispatches by Ernie Pyle:
   ------
   From North Africa, 1943:
   "I've written that war is not romantic when a person is in the
midst of it. Nothing happened to change my feeling about that. But I
will have to admit there was an exhilaration in it; an inner
excitement that built up into a buoyant tenseness seldom achieved in
peacetime."
   ------
   "Gypsying around the front" in Tunisia:
   "The danger came in spurts; discomfort was perpetual. Dirt and
cold were almost constant. Outside of food and cigarettes there were
none of the little things that made life normal back home. There were
no chairs, lights, floors or tables. There wasn't any place to set
anything, or any store to buy things. There were no newspapers, milk,
beds, sheets radiators, beer, ice cream or hot water. A man just sort
of existed, either standing up working or lying down sleeping. There
was no pleasant in-between. The velvet was all gone from living."
   ------
   Recovering from illness in a field hospital in Sicily, Pyle
watched a chaplain praying over a badly wounded GI:
   "When he had finished, the chaplain said, 'John, you're doing
fine, you're doing fine'... the dying man was left utterly alone,
just lying there on his litter on the ground, lying in an aisle,
because the tent was full. Of course it couldn't be otherwise, but
the awful aloneness of that man as he went through the last few
minutes of his life was what tormented me. I felt like going over and
at least holding his hand while he died, but it would have been out
of order and I didn't do it. I wish now I had."
   ------
   At Naples, combat veterans joked about the need for a "second
draft" to get cooks, clerks and drivers to the front, but Pyle
figured most would volunteer anyway: "One of the paradoxes of war is
that those in the rear want to get up into the fight, while those in
the lines want to get out."
   ------
   A military policeman from New York: "He was a coffee merchant by
profession, a radio actor by avocation, and a soldier by the trend of
events."
   ------
   In Italy, he described "the look" of combat soldiers:
   "Lack of sleep, tension for too long ... fear beyond fear, misery
to the point of numbness, a look of surpassing indifference to
anything anybody can do to you."
   ------
   After watching the D-Day invasion from a ship, Pyle went ashore
the next day and walked Omaha Beach. Despite sporadic hostile fire,
he called it "a lovely day for strolling along the seashore."
   "Men were sleeping on the sand, some of them sleeping forever. Men
were floating in the water, but they didn't know they were in the
water, for they were dead. ..."
   "Here in a jumbled row for mile on mile are soldiers' packs. Here
are socks and shoe polish, sewing kits, diaries, Bibles, and hand
grenades. Here are the latest letters from home, with the address on
each one neatly razored out -- one of the security precautions
enforced before the boys embarked.
   "Here are toothbrushes and razors, and snapshots of families back
home staring up at you from the sand. Here are pocketbooks, metal
mirrors, extra trousers, and bloody, abandoned shoes. ... I picked up
a pocket Bible with a soldier's name in it and put it in my jacket. I
carried it for half a mile or so and then put it back down on the
beach. I don't know why I picked it up, or why I put it back down.
...."
   ----
   In Normandy, Pyle helped some American soldiers carry German
bodies to the site for a new cemetery:
   "The boys made wisecracks along the way to cover up their distaste
for the job. When we got to the field we weren't sure where the
lieutenant wanted the cemetery started. So we put our man down on the
ground and went back for instructions. And as we walked away, the
funny guy of the group turned and shook a finger at the dead German
and said: 'Now don't you run away while we're gone."'
   ------
   In an unfinished column on the-end of war in Europe, found in his
pocket, Pyle told of having seen "dead men in such familiar
promiscuity that they become monotonous. Dead men in such monstrous
infinity that you come almost to hate them," yet told readers they
need not think of that.
   "To you at home ... he is a near one who went away and just didn't
come back. You didn't see him lying so grotesque and pasty beside the
gravel road in France. We saw him, saw him by the multiple thousands.
That's the difference ..."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 18:26:38 -0400
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: WANT:For Sale

I am just going to have to thin out my collection!  Have some really oddball
junk that I feel the members of this list might be interested in.  The prices
are firm (and I feel reasonable) but will consider trades etc.

If interested contact me directly at my E-Mail address and DONT CLUTTER UP
LIST WITH REPLIES!!!

         MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU


******************************************************************************

     LOAD ADJUSTER - WACO CG-4A Troop Glider. Mint condition with leather
     carrying pouch and steel mounting bracket.Slide rule.       $25.00.

     PIONEER AIRCRAFT COMPASS. Type D-12. Large aircraft compass is 3 inches
     accross. This is the standard type compass used in the B-17, B-26, P-40N,
     T-6 etc. etc. This has been mounted in a handmade wooden case with
     handle (for classroom use?) that is red. Compass can be easily removed
     from this. Fluid needs topping off..otherwise very good.   $90.00.

     AERONCA TG-5 Training Glider Flight Report Holder.  All wood document
     holder for cockpit.  Still marked "Airplane Flight Reports" across front.
     Parts are rusty and wood weathered...but this is really unique and rare.
     Nice the glider/airborne display.                          $25.00

     WACO CG-4A TROOP GLIDER AILERON.  A really banged up relic. The original
     aileron with hinge intact but edge is broken and shows wood construction
     under dope & fabric. O.D. on top and grey on bottom.  30 inches long and
     marked "GE--D3--PO2" stenciled. Definately a smashed up bit of history;
     looks like it went through a hedgerow.                     $15.00

     TYPE A-3 AAF "Herringbone" Baseball Cap. Olive drab "mechanics cap"
     popular with all aircraft.  Tag and AAF stamps. Size 7 3/8.
     Unissued.                                                  $20.00

     TYPE A-9 Flying Helmet. Sheepskin earpads. Has metal hooks for oxygen
     mask. Size Medium. ID label is perfect. This is unissued but has some
     storage grime. Has a tiny glue spot on crown. Nice for the reenactor.
                                                                $25.00

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 18:40:41 -0400
From:    Ron Charlton <RebelRon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

On a program about Axis bombers on the Discovery Channel last week they
showed a FW Condor anti-shipping bomber dropping a bomb with a television
camera in its nose being guided toward a ship by the bombardier using a
joystick.

Can anyone verify the existence of such a "smart-bomb" by the Germans in
WWII?

Can anyone give a printed reference source for the TV guided bomb?

Thanks    -- Ron Charlton
                  RebelRon@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 01:39:18 SAT
From:    saleh <STUBA3B@SAUPM00.BITNET>
Subject: new user

hello...... i'am new in this list can u tell me what your discussing?..
thank you...
bay..bay.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:46:00 CDT
From:    Alex Bielakowski <ABIELAK@LUCCPUA.IT.LUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sgt. Rock

On 3 Apr 95, Bill Huber wrote:

> Since we are talking movies, does anyone know what ever became of the
> Arnold Schwarzenegger project to be DC Comic's Sgt. Rock?  If they
> chose not to release it I believe I can think of at least one reason
> why.  Arnie speaks pretty good American but I don't think Sgt Rock
> fans could deal with a Sgt. Rock with an Austrian accent.

Bill,
     This project had originally been designed for Bruce Willis, who
decided to turn it down.  Arnie then agreed to do the picture in which
the script had been altered to explain his accent (he was an Austrian
who had managed to immigrate to the U.S. during the Depression, and
who then worked in the steel mills of Pittsburg).  Arnie left the
project after the producers wanted to do the principle photography
in Europe.  Arnie will only do one film a year in which he has to go
over-seas to do principle photography.  The producers have shelved the
script for the time-being in order to look for a new star.  I hope this
helps!

Alex Bielakowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:46:41 EDT
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz

There was a save one for Giessen though.  Stationed there for
six years and married to a German from the area.  Something
about farmers pitchforking to death aviators who had fallen
into their fields.  Something about all bombs not expended
earlier were dropped as they flew over Giessen.  Could also
be myth, but if it is, is rooted deep in the Giessener psyche.
Rob Rush
rushr@meade-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 20:46:57 EDT
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-APR-1945

On 04-APR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the British 2nd Army sector, the XXX and XII Corps
establish bridgeheads over the Dortmund-Ems Canal. Elements of the VIII
Corps enter Osnabruck. The U.S. 1st and 9th Armies continue to attack the
Ruhr pocket. The 80th Division captures Kassel. The French 1st Amry takes
Karlsruhr.

Eastern Front - The 4th Ukraine Front opens an offensive along the
Polish-Czech frontier towards Bohemia. The 2nd Ukraine Front captures
Bratislava. Elements of the 3rd Ukraine Front are within 2 miles of Vienna.

Okinawa - The situation on Okinawa undergoes a major change. All units are
now facing heavy resistance carried out from camouflaged positions in the
north as well as in the south.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:30:44 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply

This is a very interesting topic.  I once read in a book about the
early part of the War, when the German army was racing around
destroying all that stood in there path.  That a group of captured
British troops were gun downed by the SS, no real surprise there.
Two men actually survived the shooting.  The locals from the town
came across them. I cant remeber if they were French of Belgium.  But
they helped they two brits.  They locals turned them over to the
Wehrmacht, who in turn got them medical help.   One soldier was hurt
bad enough to be exchange back to the British.  No one belived his
story.  Not unitl the other survivor was liberated in Germany in
1945, and him telling the same story did any belive.

I dont' think all of the Wehrmacht were this evil machine, at least
on the Western Front.  The east maybe, that was certainly a whole
other world.


Neil Carmichael

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:30:35 EDT
From:    Jonathan Perkins <jperkins@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Japanese midget subs at Pearl

Jim Adams writes:
>
> Besides the two midgets that were sunk inside Pearl Harbor during the
> attack, one of which did get off some torpedos but did not hit anything,
> there is recent evidence that a third midget did actually get off two
> torpedos and they may have hit the battleships West virginia and
> Oklahoma.  This was the result of computer enhanced analysis of a aerial
> photograph taken by a Japanese airplane during the attack and was
> announced this past December 7th.  Look back in the archives for posting
> I did then that details the report.
>
> In all fairness, I will acknowledge that not all have accepted this new
> analysis as of yet.
>

        I was actually going to ask for more of an opinion on this--I must
admit that I had not heard this theory until I picked up the April issue of
_American History_.  On page 74, under the "Time Capsule" section, they
show the picture that supposedly (at least when computer enhanced) shows
the evidence of the mini-sub that fired its torpedoes.  The picture in the
magazine does not show the computer enhancement, however.  For what it is
worth, they note that a 1992 book, _Advance Force Pearl Harbour_ by Burl
Burlinggame, first advanced the theory.  They also note that a National
Park Service historian, Daniel Martinez, took the step of asking Autometric,
Inc. of Alexandria, Virginia, to analyze the photo.

        I'll look up the more detailed posts in the archives--can you narrow
it down a little, though?  What month/year?

        Thanks





--
----------
Jon Perkins--Ottawa, Canada
jperkins@ccs.carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:47:20 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz -Reply

>>> SGM Robert S. Rush <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>  4/4/95, 07:46pm
>>>
>Something about all bombs not expended earlier were dropped >as they
flew over Giessen.  Could also be myth, but if it is, is >rooted deep
in the Giessener psyche.
>Rob Rush rushr@meade-emh1.army.mil

That may be true, but not for the reason people think.  Read
operations report from a bombing mission in europe.

The second plan miss understood what the command plane said,  The
second plane released its bombs, so did the other 10 planes in the
formation.  The only plane to reach the target with their load was
the first plane.  What did the other planes hit.  A little farm house
and its buildings, 100 percent destroyed.  After all we are
Americans.  So anything is possible.

Neil Carmichael.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:59:17 EDT
From:    Ralph Fasano <RFAS8815@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Dachau Freed

A class in Human Sexuality at URI has been asked by the Prof to research and
compile a bibliography about the Holacaust. Specific to the question, are there
any on this list who might know of any books about Hitler's plans for Gypsies,
homosexuals and others with physical disabilities?

Ralph Fasano  rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:05:52 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply

>From:         "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
>Subject:      Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply
>
>This is a very interesting topic.  I once read in a book about the
>early part of the War, when the German army was racing around
>destroying all that stood in there path.  That a group of captured
>British troops were gun downed by the SS, no real surprise there.
>Two men actually survived the shooting.  The locals from the town
>came across them. I cant remeber if they were French of Belgium.  But
>they helped they two brits.  They locals turned them over to the
>Wehrmacht, who in turn got them medical help.   One soldier was hurt
>bad enough to be exchange back to the British.  No one belived his
>story.  Not unitl the other survivor was liberated in Germany in
>1945, and him telling the same story did any belive.

I suspect you are talking about the following book.

 AUTHOR       Aitken, Leslie.
 TITLE        Massacre on the road to Dunkirk : Wormhout, 1940 / Leslie
              Aitken.
 PUB INFO     London : Kimber, 1977.
 PHYS DESC    [1], 189 p., [8] p. of plates : ill., plans, ports.
              ; 24 cm181-1TES        Includes index.



John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:17:29 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Sinsheim Museum, GE -Reply

>>> Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>  4/4/95,
04:35pm >>>
>That museum is located off A6 'tween Heidelberg and Heilbronn. Doug
>Donnell can probably give you better directions. It has been a few
>years since I left the Pirmasens area.

Your right, that's where it is.

Neil Carmichael

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:58:12 -0400
From:    Steven Dieter u <diet7450@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies

Even though I am a new subscriber to this list, I bet that this WWII
movie hasn't been mentioned:

This 1942 flick starred James Cagney as a bush pilot striving to enter
the Royal Canadian Air Force during WWII.  Cagney's character, due to his
age, is 're-routed' to become an instructor instead of a pilot.

The classic scene from this movie is Cagney buzzing the training base at
Uplands (No. 2 Service Flying Training School, No. 3 Training Command)
while Air Marshal W.A. 'Billy' Bishop, VC is present at a wings ceremony.

The movie co-starred Alan Hale Sr, George Tobias, Reginald Gardner and
Dennis Morgan.  The Waner Brothers movie was "Captains of the Clouds."

When I was a volunteer with the Billy Bishop Museum in Bishop's boyhood
home located in Owen Sound, Ontario, there was a picture which was on the
mantle of the dining room fireplace from the Uplands set.  In the picture
were Bishop, Cagney, Hale, Tobias and Earl Athlone, the
Governor-General.  In the picture as well is the R.C.A.F. Ensign, with
the maple-leaf roundel, an identifier which Bishop reportedly had some,
if not all input, on its creation.

Many of the visitors to the Museum had not heard of the movie, but there
would always be the occassional visitor who knew what the picture was all
about.

Steven Dieter      diet7450@mach1.wlu.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:36:33 +1000
From:    Daniel Robertson <daniel_robertson.121201@MUWAYE.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: V-J/V-P/V-A Day - My Two Cents

As a newbie (I'll just advertise the fact :-) ) I have for some time been
following the discussion over the naming of the various victory days during
World War II.

Let me give some background so everyone knows where I'm coming from. I'm an
Australian and 19 year old history student, so I even missed the Vietnam War.
I would hope my age is irrelevant - my views are what I want considered.

I have a grandfather who fought in New Guinea during the second world war and
he has very strong views about the Japanese which I can understand, but do
not share. I believe a lot of hostility remains between the combatants of the
Pacific arena because of Japan's failure to provide an official apology.
However if Japan was to apologise now it surely would be a token gesture -
feel free to disagree. I would like to hear some concrete reasons why they
should apologise - perhaps some feel that they are not victors until the
enemies have regretted their actions.

As for the V-E and V-J/V-P debate I wish to be somewhat philosophical and
quote from Shakespeare (off the top of my head) "A rose by any other name
would still be a rose" (Romeo and Juliet). However after weighing up the
arguments for and against, and not really being one for political correctness
I must admit that I think V-J should stick.

I would love to hear your responses.

Daniel J. Robertson
daniel_robertson.121201@muwaye.unimelb.edu.au

PS. I believe someone was wondering if Vietnam celebrated V-A day which was
met with a response along the lines of "America didn't lose". Well I would
argue (and I am not well-versed in the history of the Vietnam War) that the
intention of the Western Forces involved was to stop Vietnam falling to the
communists; something that was not achieved.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Apr 1995 to 4 Apr 1995
***********************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 4 Apr 1995 to 5 Apr 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 49 messages totalling 1784 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. SS Membership (3)
  2. Why Save Iwo for Emergenc
  3. MEDIA:Dachau Freed (2)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 04-05-95
  5. Inf: war movies
  6. Japanese midget subs at Pearl
  7. [INF] USAAF 5 APR 45
  8. Why Save Iwo for Emergencies?
  9. Sinsheim Museum, GE
 10. good books on the Pacific (3)
 11. WWII Movies (6)
 12. World War II Movies (5)
 13. V-J/V-P/V-A Day - My Two Cents
 14. U Boats Offshore - Book question
 15. ADMIN: Vietnam discussions
 16. Hitler's Body (2)
 17. Movies: The Keep
 18. WEAP: Fw-200 Condor and TV-guided bomb
 19. MEDIA:Ernie Pyle Excerpts
 20. Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?
 21. Russia Enters the Pacific
 22. V-E Kansas City
 23. V-E Day Commemoration Kansas City
 24. Kansas City WWII V-E Day Event
 25. MEDIA:Okinawa
 26. Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply -Reply
 27. World War II Movies -Reply
 28. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-APR-1945
 29. Save one for Mainz
 30. [INF] USAAF 6 APR 45
 31. MEDIA:Hitler's Body
 32. WEAP: Attack Transports
 33. U Boats Offshore - Book q...
 34. Naval Archives Internet Address?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:27:49 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

Terry Moore wrote:

>My understanding is that membership in the NSDAP was automatic upon
entry into the Waffen-SS, but will check it out.

Hmm. That's somewhat different from requiring it in advance, and it's an inter
esting nuance I hadn't considered. I look forward to hearing what you come up
with. Thanks very much.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 04:18:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Why Save Iwo for Emergenc

Eliot K. Friedman asks

  >     Once Iwo had been secured, why didn't _ALL_ B-29 missions originate
  >  from there, shortening the trip (and presumably increasing the bomb
  >  load)?  Was Iwo just too small to accomodate them all?

Area in square miles:    Saipan          47.5
                         Tinian          39.3
                         Guam           200+

                         Iwo              7.5

The larger part of all islands is mountainous except Tinian which is
essentially one plateau.  As I recall, Tinian was home to 900 US aircraft,
mostly B-29s.  In 1945 it was the world's busiest airport.  Iwo's capacity
for large planes was miniscule.  Bomber squadrons on Iwo might have been
counterattacked; Saipan was several times bombed from Iwo in late 1944. (On
August 9, 1945 US carrier planes destroyed about 400 planes in northern
Honshu that were slated for a suicide attack on Saipan and Tinian.)
  At North Field, Tinian, three years ago I drove a car at 90 mph along the
vast coral strip.  An eerie feeling.  It's kept cleared for emergencies but
lies alone and desolate except for two A-bomb markers.  The other Tinian
fields have returned to bush.

Ed Miller  e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:34:29 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Dachau Freed

>A class in Human Sexuality at URI has been asked by the Prof to research and
>compile a bibliography about the Holacaust. Specific to the question, are there
>any on this list who might know of any books about Hitler's plans for Gypsies,
>homosexuals and others with physical disabilities?
>
>Ralph Fasano  rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu
>
There have been zseveral books published over the last few years, plus
articles in such magazines as 'History Today'. If you can wait until I get
back to the UK at the end of the month, I can give you a fairly good list.
Otherwise, try one of the Holocaust history groups - which will probably be
_much_ quicker.

Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 04:00:09 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-05-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/05 Thu. United States Naval Advanced Air Base, Iwo Jima,
           Volcano Islands, is established.
           Koiso cabinet in Japan resigns; Admiral Suzuki becomes
           Prime Minister.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Battleship NEVADA (BB-36), by coastal defense gun,
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 13'N., 127 d. 40'E.
             Light minelayer HARRY F. BAUER (DM-26), by aircraft
              torpedo, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 30'N., 127 d. 30'E.
             Seaplane tender (destroyer) THORNTON (AVD-11), by
              collision, Okinawa area,
              24 d. 24'N., 128 d. 58'E.
             Oiler ASHTABULA (AO-51), by collision, Okinawa area,
              25 d. 09'N., 128 d. 47'E.
             Oiler ESCALANTE (AO-70), by collision, Okinawa area,
              25 d. 09'N., 128 d. 47'E.
             Repair ship AGENOR (ARL-3), by collision, Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
             LST 273, by collision, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 25'N., 127 d. 42'E.
             LST 646, by collision, Iwo Jima area,
              24 d. 46'N., 141 d. 19'E.
             LST 698, by grounding, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 24'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 810, by collision, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 25'N., 127 d. 42'E.
             LST 940, by collision, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 43'E.
             LST 1000, by collision, Okinawa area,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 44'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine R0-41, by destroyer HUDSON (DD-475),
              Okinawa area,
              26 d. 21'N., 126 d. 30'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:45:09 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Inf: war movies

I recently found a book titled *War Movies*.  It is a collection of over
500 war movies available on video cassette.  Includes a summary of each
one.  It is published by CineBooks (1989).

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:57:02 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese midget subs at Pearl

Jon Perkins, look in the lists archives for December 1994, it would have
been around the 7th or 8th for posts about the photo of the midget sub.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 06:57:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 5 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 27 fighter bombers on armed
reconnaissance attack troops, horses, and river, road, and rail traffic at
Son La, French Indochina and Shanhsien and Shihkiachwang, and in the Tehsien
and Loyang-Pinglo area of China.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, bad weather cancels
scheduled strikes; transports continue large-scale operations to forward
areas. The 166th Liaison Squadron (Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, moves
from Ondaw to Meiktila, Burma with UC-64s and L-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 928: 1,358 bombers and 662 fighters attack marshalling yards,
ordnance depots, armament works and airfields in Germany; they claim 8-0-6
aircraft; 10 bombers and 1 P-51 are lost:
  1. 436 B-17s are dispatched to hit munitions dumps at Ingolstadt (211)
and Grafenwohr (94), and the marshalling yard at Bayreuth (73); targets of
opportunity are Weiden (30) and Nurnberg (1); the attacks are made visually;
1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; 11 airmen are KIA and
2 WIA. Escorting are 182 of 201 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft in the air
and 7-0-3 on the ground.
  2. 397 B-24s are sent to hit the marshalling yard at Plauen (151) and the
munitions dump at Bayreuth (39); targets of opportunity are the munitions
dump at Grafenwohr (1) and munitions plant at Ingolstadt (1); bombing is with
H2X radar; 5 B-24s are lost and 5 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 44 MIA. 280
P-47s and P-51s escort; they claim 1-0-2 aircraft in the air; 1 P-51 is lost
(pilot MIA).
  3. 521 B-17s are sent to hit the Unterschlauersbach Airfield (59), an
aircraft parts factory (13) and munitions depot (54) at Furth, and the
Nurnberg S marshalling yard (37); 271 bombers hit the Nurnberg Station
marshalling yard, the secondary; bombing is visual; 4 B-17s are lost, 2
damaged beyond repair and 112 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 39 MIA.
The escort is 91 of 104 P-51s.
  4. 4 B-17s fly scouting missions.
  5. 18 P-51s escort 5 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.
  6. 35 P-51s fly a scouting mission.
  Mission 929: 12 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and Germany
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves: HQ 27th Fighter Group
and 522d and 524th Fighter Squadrons from Ochey, France to Biblis, Germany
with P-47s; 406th Fighter Squadron, 371st Fighter Group from Metz, France to
Eschborn Airfield, Frankfurt, Germany with P-47s; 417th Night Fighter
Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing [attached to First Tactical AF (Provisional)]
from La Vallon to St Dizier, France with Beaufighters.
    Ninth Air Force: Weather prevents operations by the 9th Bombardment
Division. In Germany, fighters fly patrols, sweeps, and armed reconnaissance,
and support the US 7th Armored Division's attack on the Ruhr pocket SW of
Brilon, the XX Corps' drive E in the Muhlhausen area, the XII Corps' advance
in the Meiningen area, the 2d Armored Division bridgehead astride the Weser
River S of Hameln, the 8th Armored Division (preparing for an assault on
Soest), and the 5th Armored Division near Minden. Units moving: HQ 10th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and the 31st Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron from Evren Airfield, Trier to Ober Olm, Germany with F-5s; HQ 344th
Bombardment Group (Medium) and the 497th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) from
Cormeilles-en-Vexin, France to Juzaine Airfield, Florennes, Belgium with
B-26s; the 153d Liaison Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command (attached to
Twelfth Army Group) from Bad Godesberg to Marburg, Germany with L-5s; the
167th Liaison Squadron, Ninth AF (attached to Sixth Army Group) from Vittel,
France to Kaiserslautern, Germany with L-5s; the 450th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium), 322d Bombardment Group (Medium), from Tille Airfield, Beauvais,
France to Le Culot, Belgium with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 457 B-24s and B-17s attack a
railroad bridge at Dravograd, Yugoslavia, marshalling yards and locomotive
depots at Brescia, Alessandria, and Turin, Italy, and the airfield at Udine,
Italy; 96 P-38s dive-bomb the Radovljica, Yugoslavia railroad bridge, 27
P-51s with 13 flying top cover, strafe rail communications in the Munich,
Regensburg, and Passau, Germany, and Linz, Austria areas; 20+ P-38s fly
reconnaissance missions; around 300 fighter sorties are flown to escort
transport, reconnaissance, and bomber missions (including an RAF raid on the
Monfalconei, Italy shipyards).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25s bomb 5 bridges in N Italy
and Austria, at Steinach, Austria, and Matrei am Brenner, Modena, Salorno,
and San Michele all'Adige, and blast gun positions at La Spezia, Italy; these
attacks follow night raids by A-20s and A-26s on bridges at Lavis, Ala, San
Michele all'Adige, San Ambrogio di Valpolicella, Piazzola sul Brenta,
Cittadella, and Montebello, Italy and other targets; fighters and fighter
bombers devote their largest effort to close support of ground forces,
blasting occupied areas and gun positions in the Massa Lombarda area, and
also attack communications and dumps in the Po Valley.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 18 B-24s from Guam Island hit targets on Eten
and Dublon Islands in Truk Atoll, Caroline Islands. 22 B-24s from Angaur
Island pound a bivouac area at Bunawan, Mindanao Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): HQ 315th Bombardment Wing (Very Heavy)
arrives at Northwest Field, Guam Island from the US.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s bomb Kowloon
Docks in Hong Kong and a nearby airfield, while other B-24s bomb Kiirun
harbor in Formosa. 180+ sorties in support of ground forces are flown on
Luzon Island. A-20s and patrolling P-61s support troops on Cebu and Negros
Islands. P-38s hit Tarakan Island and Tawau, Borneo. HQ 58th Fighter Group
moves from San Jose, Mindoro Island to Mangaldan, Luzon.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2
WORLD WAR II IN THE NORTH PACIFIC by Kevin D. Hutchinson, 1994,
  ISBN-0-313-29130-6

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/1055Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 07:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Save Iwo for Emergencies?

 >    Several recent posts described the capture of Iwo Jima as necessary to
 >    provide an emergency landing strip for crippled B-29s unable to reach
 >    their original base (at Tinian, I suppose), as well as to provide a
 >    base for shorter range fighter escort.
 >
 >    Once Iwo had been secured, why didn't _ALL_ B-29 missions originate
 >    from there, shortening the trip (and presumably increasing the bomb
 >    load)?  Was Iwo just too small to accomodate them all?
 >
 >    El

The B-29 raids originated from THREE islands in the Mariana
Islands, i.e., Guam, Saipan and Tinian.  The US had spent a
considerable amount of time in building the airfields plus all the
supporting facilities and even though numerous facilities were
built on Iwo Jima, all B-29s could not fit.  The second part of the
answer is that the USAAF realized that the B-29s could not continue
to operate over Japan unescorted so Iwo Jima and Ie Jima became
bases for P-51 fighters which began escorting the B-29s in Apr 45.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:31:52 CET
From:    "COL Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Sinsheim Museum, GE

I missed the original question about the Sinsheim museum, but here's some
additional info.  Mike LaForge was right.  It's on Autobahn 6 between
Heidelberg (the Walldorfer Kreuz) and Heilbronn.  You can't miss it --
easy to see from the Autobahn.  It's open every day of the year (expect,
I think, Christmas and New Year's Day).  Take either Sinsheim exit off
the Autobahn and follow the signs for the town.  Once in town the way
is well marked.  There's almost an entire building devoted to WWII.
Also, there's quite a bit of military hardware on display outside, behind
the building with the WWII exhibition.

Hope this helps.

                           Doug Donnell
4atf@pirmasens-emh1.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:11:10 +0000
From:    Arnaud Bouis <ab@CALLISTO.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: good books on the Pacific

Can anyone recommend any Good book(s) of English language which
provide a solid description of nav/air ops in the Pacific ?
There are plenty of good "general" books describing the overall strategy, but
I am looking for those rare books which focuse on describing operations, with figures, unit names, Orders of Battles, and hard data.
I wonder if anyone attempted to give a comprehensive picture of Jap and U.S. deployment at certain dates in the Pacific, with location of air assets and important ships etc. If not, I would be interested by such a project.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 07:25:03 -0500
From:    Terrance Lewis <tlewis@PRALINE.NO.NEOSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Dachau Freed

On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Ralph Fasano wrote:

> A class in Human Sexuality at URI has been asked by the Prof to research and
> compile a bibliography about the Holacaust. Specific to the question, are there
> any on this list who might know of any books about Hitler's plans for Gypsies,
> homosexuals and others with physical disabilities?
>
> Ralph Fasano  rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu
>

There are so many....  The best place to start (IMO) would be Robert Jay
Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors," which covers a great deal by looking at the
parts of the medical profession most closely associated with the Holocaust.

"T"
tlewis@praline.no.Neosoft.com
Terrance L. Lewis, PhD
History Department
Southern University at New Orleans

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:12:08 EDT
From:    Mary Hricko <MHRICKO@KENTVM.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Hello everyone,
    FYI, there is a book entitled: WAR MOVIES: A guide to more than
 500 films on videocassette (Editor - James J. Mulay) (Evanston:
 Cinebooks, 1989) which includes bibliographic references on various
 war films. It includes general details about each film etc.

                                                      Mary

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:27:35 -0500
From:    "Mark P. Parillo" <parillo@KSU.KSU.EDU>
Subject: World War II Movies

    I have enjoyed this thread, as I grew up watching all the World War II
movies I could find on Sunday afternoon TV. But I'd like to call attention
to two of my favorites that have not yet been mentioned.

    One is "Since You Went Away," starring Claudia Colbert, Jennifer Jones,
and an adolescent Shirley Temple as a mother and two daughters coping on the
home front while the man of the house has gone to war. It's rather lengthy
(about three hours, I believe) and traces the lives of these people through
one year (1943). It is obviously a wartime production with a clear patriotic
message (not that I object--I'm just trying to put the movie into
perspective) and is naturally rather vague on the war news. It is
particularly enjoyable for the intermittent use of short vignettes filled
with wartime humor over shortages and other problems. These small scenes
(sometimes just voices overhead) occur at the beginning of scenes in public
places before the main characters arrive.

    The other is "Five Fingers," starring James Mason, Michael Rennie, and
Danielle Darrieux. It is a fine old black-and-white thriller about a German
spy in the British Embassy in Ankara, and is based on the memoirs of the
German diplomat who was the spy's main contact. James Mason's character and
performance is unforgettable and enough to carry the film on its own.

     I do not know if either is available on video, but both show up from
time to time on late night TV.

      - Mark Parillo
        Department of History

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:43:32 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: V-J/V-P/V-A Day - My Two Cents

> As for the V-E and V-J/V-P debate I wish to be somewhat philosophical and
> quote from Shakespeare (off the top of my head) "A rose by any other name
> would still be a rose" (Romeo and Juliet). However after weighing up the
> arguments for and against, and not really being one for political correctness
> I must admit that I think V-J should stick.
>
> I would love to hear your responses.

In the end, it just boils down to historical footnotes.  "VJ Day" (or VP Day)
both require footnotes today.  The trick is which footnote is the one we want
and which sends the right message to today's and future generations?

1) VJ Day needs (and has) a footnote explaining why the Pacific campaign is
   called "Victory over Japan" while VE Day is called "Victory in Europe."
   This footnote obviously explains why the terms are different and the
   opinions of the day.

2) VP Day would require a footnote that explains why, 50 years later, some
   people believed the name needed to be changed in order to protect the
   sensitivities of our once-enemy-now-ally because of current norms.

10, 20, 50, 100, 1000 years from now... Which is the better footnote?

Footnote #1 describes 1945.  Footnote #2 describes 1995.

So even though changing a name doesn't change the historical aspects of what
happened or the recorded history of 1945, it does change how people view it,
research it and see it sometime later in the future and probably forces them
to start asking the wrong "why" questions... Like "Why did we feel it necessary
to change something 50 years later?" rather than "Why is the VJ here and VE
there...?"  Part of history is encouraging you to ask questions to learn more.
Historical "smoothing" blurs those questions.



--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:30:40 -0600
From:    John Brewer <johnb@THELAIR.ZYNET.COM>
Subject: U Boats Offshore - Book question

        I just finished "U-Boats Offshore" by Edwin Hoyt. In it is a
description of an event involving a yawl that was drafted into patrol
duty, then almost lost at sea after encountering massive seas and weather.
The craft was Coast Guard picket boat  CGR 3070 and she was lost from
December 2 until December 23rd 1942 (I think), drifting dismasted off
the atlantic coast.

        The story is quite gripping, and I was wondering if anyone knew of
any books written about this oddesy, or further information regarding
this occurrance?

        Best
        /john



 John M. Brewer   wb5oau
 johnb@thelair.zynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:21:20 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Vietnam discussions

Daniel Robertson <daniel_robertson.121201@MUWAYE.UNIMELB.EDU.AU> writes:
> PS. I believe someone was wondering if Vietnam celebrated V-A day which was
> met with a response along the lines of "America didn't lose". Well I would
> argue (and I am not well-versed in the history of the Vietnam War) that the
> intention of the Western Forces involved was to stop Vietnam falling to the
> communists; something that was not achieved.

        I just want to nip at the bud any discussions on Vietnam.  This
list is for discussing WWII.  While it can be argued that there is linkage
between the two, there are more appropriate mailing lists where any such
topics could be discussed more thoroughly.  Thanks.

--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:35:41 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Body

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  05-Apr-1995 09:22am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Hitler's Body


         Just knew Terry would have some good stuff on this subject and
    beat me to spitting it out. 8-)  His mention of preserving Hitler's
    dental work leads me to my tale.
         Most of you know we have the Cornelius Ryan Collection and that
    Ryan wrote _The Last Battle,_ which deals mainly with the capture of
    Berlin by the Soviets.  What Ryan was to reveal in the book was just
    how the Soviets identified Hitler's body - through his mouth.
         From the book, pp. 504-506, first Simon & Schuster edition:

         "A special team of experts found Hitler's body almost immediately,
    buried under a thin layer of earth.  A Russian historian, General B.S.
    Telpuchovskii, felt sure that it was the Fu"hrer.  'The body was badly
    charred,' he said, 'but the head was intact, though the back was
    shattered by a bullet.  The teeth had been dislodged and were lying
    alongside the head.'
         "Then some doubt began to arise.  Other bodies were found in the
    same area and some of them, too, had been burned. 'We found the body of
    a man in uniform whose features resembled Hitler's,' said
    Telpuchovskii, 'but his socks were darned.  We decided that this could
    not be Hitler because we hardly thought that the Fu"hrer of the Reich
    would wear darned socks.  There was also the body of a man was freshly
    killed but not burned.'
         "The matter of the two doubles was further confused when the first
    body was placed alongside the second, and guards and other German
    personnel were asked to identify them.  They either could not or would
    not.  A few days later Colonel General Vasili Sokolovskii ordered a
    dental check to be made of each body.  Fritz Echtmann and Ka"the
    Heusermann, the dental technicians who had worked in the offices of
    Hitler's dentist, Blaschke, were turned up.  Echtmann was taken to
    Finow, near Eberswalde, about twenty-five miles northeast of Berlin.
    He was asked to draw a sketch of Hitler's teeth.  When he was finished,
    his interrogators disappeared into another room with the sketch.  A
    short while later they were back.  'It fits,' Echtmann was told.  Then
    the Russians showed the technician Hitler's entire lower jaw and dental
    bridges.
         "Ka"the Heusermann was picked up on May 7; she immediately
    identified the jaw and bridges.  The work she and Blaschke had
    performed some months ago was easily recognizable.  Ka"the was given a
    bag of food and driven back to Berlin.  Two days later she was picked
    up again and this time taken to the town of Erkner.  In a clearing was
    a row of open graves, the bodies visible in them.  'Identify them,' the
    Russian with her said.  Ka"the immediately recognized the bodies of
    Joseph Goebbles and his children.  'The girls were all still wearing
    flannel nightgowns of a printed material with a design of small roses
    and blue flowers intertwined,' she said.  There was no sign of Magda
    Goebbles.
         "Apparently as a consequence of her identification of Hitler's
    teeth, Ka"the Heusermann spent the next eleven years in a Soviet
    prison, most of the time in solitary confinement.
         "What happened to Hitler's body?  The Russians claim to have
    cremated it just outside Berlin, but they will not say where.  They say
    that they never found Eva Braun's body, that it must have been consumed
    completely by fire, and that any normally identifiable portions must
    have been destroyed or scattered in the furious bombardment of the
    government buildings.
         [Footnote] "It is the author's belief that the Russians were not
    interested in Eva Braun and made no real effort to identify her body.
    The first confirmation by the Soviets that Hitler was dead was made to
    the author and to Professor John Erickson by Marshal Vasili Sokolovskii
    on April 17, 1963, almost eighteen years after the event."

    From the Ryan research files:

         Handwritten notes from interview with Echtmann -

    "One of the reasons we were kept in Russia was because of newspaper
    reports they kept them there because they felt if he was found dentists
    would ['believe' crossed out] confirm and prove.
    "Body wasn't completely burned.  Entire skull was almost intact.  Lower
    jaw with bridge was intact & upper also.  Hitler ['was supposed to'
    crossed out] had an operation. One tooth was bad, bridge had to be cut
    to get it out.
    "Blaschke: now we have to make something new.
    "But new bridge was never made.  Therefore I recognized the bridge when
    Russian produced it.
    "He melted down gold & used it  Eva Braun's bridge.  He also attended
    Goebbles. R asked him if bridge was a fake:
    "E: It could have been an imitation except for operation.
    "Fritsche in Nuremburg revealed that E was prisoner.  They were held
    Karlshorst.  Fritsche went to Nuremburg.
    "Had my lab in Blaschke's office.  May 7 R came into home looking for
    X-Rays.  But they were Obersalzberg.
    "Identified teeth at Finow, near Eberswalde.  60 Kms from Berlin.  But
    asked him to draw sketch.  Then they disappeared into another room to
    compare.  They returned.  Officer said 'It fits.'
    "Then they produced the entire lower jaw with bridge, but upper bridge
    without jaw.
    "Heusemann & I were held for so long because we knew too much. ....
    "9 years in Russia.   7 Years in Moscow.
    "Summer 1954 official hearing to declare Hitler dead in Bavaria. Was
    chief witness.
    "Sentenced to 10 years for 'working for the ??? [Brownshirts?] But let
    off one year.
    "His wife thought as Heusemann had been back in two days he'd be back.
    "R - a Col, a woman interpretor, & a Polish dentist.
    "Then to SCHWANEBECK ? by Buches ? - where hospital bodies Eva Hitler
    etc. were taken apart autopsied.
    "Also showed him Eva's bridge.  Last time he saw Hitler was in 1944.
    "Eva's bridge was made of a kind of plastic (white). ....
    "Plastic bridge was absolutely in perfect condition it was blackened by
    smoke but otherwise OK.   ....
    "One of the incisions had a window crown - this was element of
    identification.  Russians treated him well from start to finish.  I was
    in a cell, but I could make complaints in letter.  I'm often in trouble
    because I say this, but it is true.  I was never mistreated Lubianka in
    Moscow, & Two years Leforto.  Got better food than those living
    outside.  Really a lot of food.
    "After 10 year he was 'tried' got 10 years.
    "Thought I'd never get out - at least as long as Stalin.


    Material from the Heusemann file in next post.

    Doug McCabe
    Archives and Special Collections
    Ohio University
    Athens, OH
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  05-Apr-1995 11:35am

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:13:23 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Movies: The Keep

> Does anyone remember "Castlekeep" , a GI squad lead by a one-eyed Burt
> Lanchaster defends a castle from Germans during Ardennes.
>
> Ozgur Altinyay

That was a real mind bender alright.  What about the horror movie,
"The Keep" where a German Army unit pulls into an old castle guarding
a mountain pass and find it inhabited by one big nasty vampire.  Super
vehicles though.  The book was much different, as usual....

Cheers Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:14:07 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Fw-200 Condor and TV-guided bomb

Hey, that's interesting. I've never heard of it!!
(Terry, do you know anything about this weapon?)
I can only guess that is may have been a modified version of a Henschel
missile, or something like this. And maybe it wasn't really TV guided,
but it may have a camera attached on the nose, to show the trajectory.
(for test purposes, propaganda, etc....??)
Just guessing of course. Terry, you have the last word :-)

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:16:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <ECZ5JXJ@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: WWII Movies

I saw 5 Fingers a year or so ago in a beautiful print at school.  That was an
interesting, sophisticated movie that had the courage to present the logical
conclusions of its premises.  The Darrieux character's relationship w/Mason's
--we don't often get to see real life on the screen.  And since it was shot in
Ankara, the locales were stunning.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:36:46 -0400
From:    Scott C Stathis <stathis@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: good books on the Pacific

>
> Can anyone recommend any Good book(s) of English language which
> provide a solid description of nav/air ops in the Pacific ?
> There are plenty of good "general" books describing the overall strategy, but
> I am looking for those rare books which focuse on describing operations, with fi
> gures, unit names, Orders of Battles, and hard data.
> I wonder if anyone attempted to give a comprehensive picture of Jap and U.S. dep
> loyment at certain dates in the Pacific, with location of air assets and importa
> nt ships etc. If not, I would be interested by such a project.
>
> Arnaud.
>

   Two good books on the Pacific war are "At Dawn We Slept" and "Miracle
at Midway" both by Gordon Prange. Both books provide much hard data on
these two battles including describtion of operations, figures and unit
names.

Hope this helps

Scott

Self-Proclaimed Midway fanitic.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:08:37 -0400
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Ernie Pyle Excerpts

Regarding Ernie Pyle - would his columns be covered by the copyright laws? I
would love to take some of his old columns, type them up and post them out on
my 50 YA home page. I know normal copyrights are for 25 years renewable. I
wonder if he's were renewed (it would have had to be done twice).

John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:15:14 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

Hello, Ron!

You bet!

> Can anyone verify the existence of such a "smart-bomb" by the Germans in
> WWII?

    Yes. Captain Bernhard Jope's Bombing Squadron 100, had used this
type of missle, called the Fritz X. It was an anti- shipping missle
and could be steered or guided by someone trained to do it from the
mother aircraft.

> Can anyone give a printed reference source for the TV guided bomb?

    German Secret Weapons of WWII by Kenneth Macksey goes into this,
for example.

    There are others, but this one comes to mind.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:20:38 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: WWII Movies

Julie Kenkins hit on a good movie with The Train.  I rented it after Burt L.
died, and enjoyed it.  One of my other favorites which isn't in video format is
Five Graves to Cairo w/ von Stroheim.  The key to the movie and the defeat of
the Afrika Korps. is a particular map, and the positioning of the letters that
spell EGYPT.  Hope I didn't ruin it for anyone.

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:43:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies

 >    I have enjoyed this thread, as I grew up watching all the World War II
 >movies I could find on Sunday afternoon TV. But I'd like to call attention
 >to two of my favorites that have not yet been mentioned.
 >
 >    One is "Since You Went Away," starring Claudia Colbert, Jennifer Jones,
 >and an adolescent Shirley Temple as a mother and two daughters coping on the
 >home front while the man of the house has gone to war. It's rather lengthy
 >(about three hours, I believe) and traces the lives of these people through
 >one year (1943). It is obviously a wartime production with a clear patriotic
 >message (not that I object--I'm just trying to put the movie into
 >perspective) and is naturally rather vague on the war news. It is
 >particularly enjoyable for the intermittent use of short vignettes filled
 >with wartime humor over shortages and other problems. These small scenes
 >(sometimes just voices overhead) occur at the beginning of scenes in public
 >places before the main characters arrive.

According to Leonard Maltin's MOVIE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1994, SINCE YOU
WENT AWAY was released in 1944 and was 172 mintues long (when
released.)  It starred Claudette Colbert, Jennifer Jones, Joseph
Cotten, Shirly Temple, Monty Woolley, Hattie McDaniel, Agnes
Moorehead, Craig Stevens (HEY, Peter Gunn; see how many remember
this!), Keenan Wynn, Nazimova, Robert Walker and Lionel Barrymore.
Maltin gives it a 3.5 stars out of possible 4.0 and says,
"Tear-jerker supreme with Colbert at her valiant best.  Story of
family suffering through WW2 with many tragedies and complications
dates a bit, but still is very smooth film.  Producer David O.
Selznick wrote the screenplay, from Margaret Buell Wilder's book.
Beautifully photographed by Lee Garmes and Stanly Cortez.  Max
Steiner's score won an Oscar. Film debuts of Guy Madison (then an
actual sailor, in the role of sailor Harold Smith) and John Derek
(an extra)."  At one time or another, the film was availabe on
laserdisc and videocassette.

 >    The other is "Five Fingers," starring James Mason, Michael Rennie, and
 >Danielle Darrieux. It is a fine old black-and-white thriller about a German
 >spy in the British Embassy in Ankara, and is based on the memoirs of the
 >German diplomat who was the spy's main contact. James Mason's character and
 >performance is unforgettable and enough to carry the film on its own.

5 FINGERS was released in 1952 and ran 108 minutes.  It starred
James Mason, Danielle Darrieux, Michael Rennie, Walter Hampden,
Oscar Karlweis, Herbert Berghof, John Wengraf and Michael Pate.
Maltin gives it 3 stars out of a possible 4 and says,
"Exceptionally intelligent spy thriller with Mason as a cool
customer selling high-priced secrets right under the noses of his
British government employers during WW2.  Based on a novel that was
purportedly true!  Followed by a short-lived TV series."  As of
1994, the film had never been released on video or laser.

The TV series FIVE FINGERS was on the National Broadcasting Network on
Saturday nights, 9:30 to 10:30 from 3 Oct 59 to 9 Jan 60 starring
David Hedison, Luciana Paluzzi and Paul Burke.  Hedison played an
American counterspy posing as a Communist agent in Europe; his code
name was "Five Fingers."
 >
 >     I do not know if either is available on video, but both show up from
 >time to time on late night TV.
 >
 >      - Mark Parillo
 >        Department of History

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:45:14 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

Hi everybody,

Here is that membership breakout from the 1 Dec. 1938 (correct date)
SS Dienstaltersliste.  It points out that among the officers in the
pre-war SS, 8.3% were not party members and that included 3 of the
rank of General!  Enjoy - Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil


            Officer Corps by Grade and Party Membership

                     as of 1 December  1938

Grade      1to100K  100,001to500K  500,001to1.8M  over1.8M  NotParty  total

Obergrupf.    10          7             -             -         -        17
Gruppenf.     26         12            10             1         2        51
Brigadef.     14         16            10             8         1        49
Oberf.        62         69            44            24        16       215
Standartenf.  68        114            82            31        12       307
Oberstmbanf.  72        129           101            54        26       382
Sturmbannf.  151        281           286           136        38       892
Hauptstmf.   284        599           596           255       121      1855
Obersturmf.  440        981          1162           636       230      3449
Untersturmf. 499       1609          2153          1691       698      6650

            1,626     3,817         4,444         2,836     1,144    13,867

            11.7%     27.5%         32.0%         20.5%      8.3%    100.0%


PS- this is from an original Dienstaltersliste that has not been
reprinted since the war.  Ciao, Bill

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:50:07 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AUTO-GRAPHICS.COM>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies

TNT is showing "The Purple Plain" tonite (Wednesday); WWII Burma is all I
know about it.

Jim Benn

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:25:24 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

I may have missed it, but I haven't seen THE WAR LOVER mentioned.

Not a particularly stellar piece of work and some of the effects are really
bad (like the obligatory couple falling in love acting in front of a blue
screen because they couldn't really transport them to a real exterior
location :-), but it also has some of the best.

The B-17 flying sequences are quite good, but the best is part of the movie
is the minute or so long "B-17 Buzz Job."  That alone is worth the film.
:-)  The B-17, piloted by an irate guy decides to beat the crap out of the
airfield because they were sent on a (horror!) leaflet mission.

The flying is real as is the B-17, no models used in this sequence.  I've
seen B-17s do "low approaches" but this kinda takes the cake... Plus, I
love the expression (or lack thereof) of the gum-chewing top turret gunner
who just kinda watches along.

The rest of the movie can probably be tossed, but this part is worth keeping.
At least as a clip.

(Yeah, I bought a copy... :-)

--
\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota            rjg@stat.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:56:04 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: SS Membership

Ron Charlton wrote:

> please permit me to make a request again for sources of
information about the Ahnenerbe, the ideological and cultural research
organization within the SS.

There is a brief-but-somewhat-gruesome description of this organization in
*The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945* by Michael Burleigh and Wolfgang Wipperm
ann. The Ahnenerbe does appear to be a fascinating topic worthy of some study
though -- one of their charges was to try to scientifically validate the
theory that "'Aryans' had arrived fully-formed from 'heaven,' being preserved
in 'eternal ice' before stalking the earth with superhuman 'electrical
powers.'" The Nazis certainly had no dearth of inventive energy -- too bad
they didn't expend it on something constructive.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:51:46 +0400
From:    The Grim Reaper <oa03-k@SERVIS.NET.TR>
Subject: Re: good books on the Pacific

On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Scott C Stathis wrote:

> >
> > Can anyone recommend any Good book(s) of English language which
> > provide a solid description of nav/air ops in the Pacific ?
> > There are plenty of good "general" books describing the overall strategy, but
> > I am looking for those rare books which focuse on describing operations, with fi
> > gures, unit names, Orders of Battles, and hard data.
> > I wonder if anyone attempted to give a comprehensive picture of Jap and U.S. dep
> > loyment at certain dates in the Pacific, with location of air assets and importa
> > nt ships etc. If not, I would be interested by such a project.
> >
> > Arnaud.
> >
>
>    Two good books on the Pacific war are "At Dawn We Slept" and "Miracle
> at Midway" both by Gordon Prange. Both books provide much hard data on
> these two battles including describtion of operations, figures and unit
> names.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Scott
>
> Self-Proclaimed Midway fanitic.
>

 I would also add Van Der Vat's The Pacific War. And indeed the MIracle
At Midway was an excellent book. (Hawks at Angels 12 !)




      wwwww
    /( 0-0 )\
--oOO--(_)---OOo---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Ozgur "Kilroy"  Altinyay       |                                           |
|E-Mail : oa03-k@servis.net.tr    | "It is unfair to shoot tanks with anti-   |
|Address: A5 BLOK/47 Konutkent I  |  aircraft guns !"                         |
|         Ankara 06530 / TURKIA   |  Anonymous British Tank officer after     |
|Phone  :+0312-2402089            |  his capture in Halfaya Pass, Africa 1941 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:11:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russia Enters the Pacific

Hello, Josef!

To answer your question, if someone else hasn't.

> With so little time left in the war, did the Soviet Union actually engage
> in any major action against Japan?  And, how exectly did they come into
> possesion of the Kurile Islands?

    Yes. It was instrumental in destroying the Japanese Kwantung Army.
    The Kuriles were ceded to them after the end of the war.

   Hope this helps.

   Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:12:21 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies

Hello, Julie!

Yes, many years ago, on two different occasions.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:23:27 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Body

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  05-Apr-1995 04:23pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Hitler's Body


    Part II re: Hitler's Body

    From the interview [my editing] of Ka"the Heusemann, dental technician,
    regarding the identification of Hitler's body:

    ....
    "Hitler had three bridges (see her won sketch).  In his upper jaw he
    actually had only eight of his own teeth and even these were backed by
    gold fillings.  A bridge completed his upper dental work and was
    securely held in place by the existing teeth.  One of these teeth - the
    wisdom tooth on the right side - became infected.  Blaschke decided to
    remove it and apparently it was, as Heusemann remembers it was 'an
    extremely difficult job.'  It was necessary to cut first through the
    bridge 'in order not to pull in out altogether' before this tooth could
    be extracted.  ....
    "Thus, the bridge had to be re-anchored.  The operation was a success,
    but it was to cause Heusemann trouble in May 1945 because, remembering
    the operation, she would always be able to identify that bridge. ....
    "On 21st April she moved into the cellars of the Chancellery.  There
    she helped the doctors in the makeshift hospital. 'I did things which I
    wasn't professionally entitled to do.  I gave injections, I helped
    doctors amputate limbs and this went on day and night.  We kept going
    by taking almost continuously Pervitin tablets (a very strong type of
    benzodrine tablet; however, one cannot become an addict on this).
    Everybody was taking these tablets.  We handed them out by the handfuls
    - especially to the soldiers and SS men who were defending the area.
    Nobody slept - they simply kept going on Pervitin.  Everyone was
    half-mad as a result. ....
    [She managed to breakout and get back home.] "Heusemann was now left
    with a dentist's office and no dentist.  She had earlier helped out a
    Jewish dintist named Dr.          He came round to see her.  She
    suggested that as Blaschke was gone that he take over the practice
    until he returned - if ever.  So Bruck moved in and they began work
    again. ....
    "Next door in Blaschke's office her new partner, Bruck, was at work.
    There was a knock on the door and outside stood a Russian major,
    another officer and a Russina woman interpretor.  They asked for
    Blaschke.
    "'He's not here.  I don't know where he is,' said Bruck.
    "The Russians then demanded Hitler's dental records.  Bruck told them
    he knew nothing about them and explained that he had just begun working
    in the office.  Then he said, 'But Blaschke's assistant Frau Heusemann
    might - she's in the doctor's office across the hall.'
    "The Russians left, entered the doctor's office and found Heusemann.
    "'What have I done?' asked Heusemann.
    "'We want Hitler's dental records' she was told.  She told them that
    they were in Berchtesgarden, that everything had been shipped out by
    Dr. Blaschke.
    "Then they told Heusemann she would have to come with them. 'Why?'
    wailed Heusemann, terrified.
    "'Don't worry,' said the interpreter.  'You won't be long anyway.'
    "They left the building and she was driven in a green jeep-like car in
    the direction of Alexanderplatz. 'We drove past the "Alex" and on and
    on until we reached a Russian Headquarters at      " (somewhere near
    Erkner, but still within Berlin city boundaries).  First she was given
    a huge meal.  Then she was called into a room in which there were
    several Soviet officers.  On a desk there lay several objects which
    looked like somebody's dentures.  She was asked if she knew them.  She
    took a closer look and the objects turned out to be an upper jaw bridge
    without the jaw, plus a complete lower jaw with all the teeth and
    bridges.  She was to look at them and if she could identify them.  She
    picked up the upper jaw bridges and instantly recognized them as
    Hitler's dentures since she recognized the operation scars left behind
    by the operation performed on Hitler in Rastenburg in November, 1944.
    She said, 'These are Hitler's teeth.'  The Russians said, 'Are you
    sure?' and she replied, 'I am absolutely sure, there is no doubt.'


    That should be enough of this line of evidence to prove either Hitler
    is really dead (and died in Berlin) or that he is running around minus
    his teeth and lower jaw.  I might add that Ryan was also in contact
    with the CIA while working on _The Last Battle_ (since it included a
    trip to Moscow) and several letters and an interview transcript passed
    between Ryan and Donald "Jamie" Jameson.  That will be in the next
    post.

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  05-Apr-1995 04:23pm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:01:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: V-E Kansas City

I should have said that I live in Kansas City and will be glad
to send any informatin about the Commemoration week-end.
I will also post some information as I rceive it.
Perhaps I will have the opportunity to meet some of you here
that week-end.

george.bauer@citynet.com

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:57:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: V-E Day Commemoration Kansas City

Now that I have seen mention of the V-E day Commemoration in
Kansas City in May, I will soon be posting details of the
activities for that wee-end.

I have been working on the aviation committee, which is involved
in lining up Warbirds for the week-end.  While it is a lot of
work, it is only part of the many activities scheduled for the
week-end.  The current -- and growing list -- shows 26 warbirds
have been lined up,including B-24, B-25, B-17, P-38, P-51,
F4F, P-47, etc...

More soon.

You can also write me directly for details.

george.bauer@citynet.com
 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:51:24 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

        Over the weekend, I rented Five Fingers.  It is a great film.
I think it was released on video about a year ago.  I saw it available at a
Blockbuster in Seattle.  I rented it at a Blockbuster in the Philadelphia
area.

Patrick Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu


Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Julie Jenkins
wrote:

> I saw 5 Fingers a year or so ago in a beautiful print at school.  That was an
> interesting, sophisticated movie that had the courage to present the logical
> conclusions of its premises.  The Darrieux character's relationship w/Mason's
> --we don't often get to see real life on the screen.  And since it was shot in
> Ankara, the locales were stunning.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:11:36 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16@NEMOMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Kansas City WWII V-E Day Event

I will be calling tonight to see if we can;t get the WWII Airman's
Preservation Society involved with the Kansas City event--I spoke with
the Group CO last week and he didn't know anything about it.  If there
is a B-17 there then we can pull our people in--Which B-17 is it??

I will call the Group CO and talk him into it tonight(he was half
convinced the other night).  I will be away from here for a few days due
to the Joint Military Ball from HELL I am doing but will be back not
later than Monday with info.

BTW, which airport?  KC downtown??  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:52:34 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Okinawa

The following is from the Philadelphia Inquirer 1 April 1995.  Reproduced
without permission.  All typos are mine.

        To reach the home of Desmond T. Doss near Rising Fawn GA, you take the
Desmond T. Doss Medal of Honor Highway.  The folks around there are mighty
proud of their neighbor up on Lookout Mountain.
        As a 20-year-old in 1945, the shy, slim Seventh-Day Adventist became
one of the most famous and unusual heroes of World War II.  A strict believer
in the Sixth Commandment(sic) - Thou shalt not kill - he refused to bear
arms.  But he was willing to serve as a medic, one of the most dangerous
jobs the Army had to offer.
        One day on the Pacific island of Okinawa, Pvt. Doss rescued almost a whole
company of men who had been cut down by Japanese fire while trying to
capture an important hilltop.  Crawling out among bullets and shell bursts,
he dragged the wounded, one by one, to a sheltered spot behind a rock,
tied a double-bowline knot around their chests and legs, and lowered them
over a 35-foot cliff to safety.
        "Dear God," he remembers praying over and over, "let me get just one
more."  It took all day, but he got them all.  The Army estimated he had
saved 75 lives.
        It was an amazing story.  But, then, Okinawa was a place FULL of amazing
stories.  The fight that began there 50 years ago today, on April 1, 1945,
turned into the biggest combination land-sea-air battle of all time.
Dragging on for almost three months, it was the last important American
battle before the atom bomb ended the war.
        Okinawa was the place where kamikaze planes inflicted massive damage
on the U.S. fleet, sinking 36 ships and damaging 368 others - where Julian
F. Becton of Wynnewood (PA) led the destroyer USS Laffey in battling 22
suicide planes, five of which crashed into the deck, killing or injuring
one-third of the crew.  "You couldn't stop them, they came so fast,"
Becton, now a retired rear admiral recalls.
        It was the place where a single Marine Corps fighter squadron, later
nicknamed the Death Rattlers, shot down 124 Japanese planes; where Charles
W. Drake of Brookside NJ, a member of that squadron, downed as many as
five of those planes in a dizzying 20 minutes.  "It was," he recalls,
"a wild, wild scramble.

To be continued....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:24:20 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply -Reply

actually it was a book called Hitlers Tuetonic Knights, or something
like that.  It was the first 10 SS division.  but I will look into
the book you mentioned.


Thanks.

Neil Carmichael
National Archives

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:28:56 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies -Reply

How about "Battleground" and "the Devils brigade".

Neil Carmichael

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:37:09 EDT
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-APR-1945

On 05-APR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 1st Army finishes liberating the area between
Nijmegen and the lower Rhine. In the British 2nd Army sector, the XII Corps
reinforces the bridgehead over the Dortmund-Ems Canal. The VIII Corps
advances towards the Weser. The XIII Corps is preparing to cross the Weser
near Minden. The XIX Corps reaches the Weser south of Hamelin and sends
some elements across the river. The XVIII Airborne Corps and the U.S. III
Corps are engaged heavily against the Ruhr pocket. In the U.S. 3rd Army
sector, all corps advance from the Kassel-Fulda line towards the east. In
the U.S. 7th Army sector, the XV Corps take Gemunden. The XXI Corps
finishes crossing the Main at Wurzburg.

Eastern Front - Fighting continues on the outskirts of Vienna.

Italian Front - In the U.S. 5th Army sector, the 92nd Division begins an
offensive towards Massa.

Philippines - In the XI Corps area, elements of the 43rd Division advance
along the Bay Lagoon, occupying Lumban. In the XIV Corps area, the 5th
Cavalry links up with the 43rd Division.

Okinawa - The 10th Army is unable to move forward due to heavy Japanese
resistance. Elements of the 6th Marine Division make small progress north
in the area of the Isthmus of Ishikawa.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:20:35 -0400
From:    Laurie Peloquin <lpeloqui@MC6ADM.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz

> > *do* know from many visits to local museums, and from talking to residents
> > of Mainz and Wiesbaden (where I had an apartment for two years, right
> > across the Rhine from Mainz) that the city was over 80% destroyed by
> > bombing during the war.  This always seemed to me to be an unusually high
> > percentage.

>     Not really. Consider Nuremberg which was 98 percent destroyed.

According to statistics in Webster and Frankland _The Strategic Air
Offensive against Germany 1939-1945_, Volume IV, Mainz was 61% destroyed
by 1945, while Nuremberg was only 51% destroyed.  The city that was
hardest hit was Wuppertal/Elberfield, at 94%.  Considering that it is
located in the Ruhr Valley, where the greatest number of attacks
occurred, this number is not surprising.  Even so, this devastation was
the result of only one mission in June 1943.

Laurie Peloquin
Wilfrid Laurier University
lpeloqui@mc6adm.uwaterloo.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 6 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 8 B-24s attack and
photograph Kurabu on Paramushiru Island, especially the airfield, while 8
B-25s hit radar installations in an all-out attack on Hayakegawa, Kotani
Island, and Minami Cape, dropping napalm-filled incendiaries for the first
time; buildings and shipping in N part of Hayakegawa are hit especially hard;
another B-25 flies weather reconnaissance.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-24s hit targets of opportunity in
the Bakli Bay area on Hainan Island and 4 P-38s knock out a bridge in the
Dien Bien Phu area of French Indochina. In China, 8 P-51s blast railroad
targets of opportunity, troops, horses, and boat landings in the Chenghsien
area and along the Lung Hai railroad and Yellow River.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): With improving weather conditions
combat strikes in the C Burma battle area increase; 70+ fighter bombers
attack troop concentrations, artillery positions, tanks, trucks, fuel dumps,
and general targets of opportunity along and immediately behind enemy lines;
targets are located in several areas including Paklu, Nawnghkio, Loilem,
Takaw, Mong Hko, Kongleng, Nawnghsan Pu, and Indaw; air supply sorties
continue on a steady basis throughout the day.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): HQ 315th Troop Carrier
Group and the 34th, 309th and 310th Troop Carrier Squadrons move from
Stanhoe, England to Amiens, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 930: 659 bombers hit rail
targets in the Leipzig, Germany area using H2X radar; 4 B-17s and 1 P-51 are
lost:
  1. 183 of 207 B-24s hit the marshalling yard at Halle; 22 others hit
Eisleben, a target of opportunity; 3 B-24s are damaged. Escorting are 201
P-47s and P-51s.
  2. 430 of 452 B-17s hit secondary targets, the main station and marshalling
yard at Leipzig (321) and hit Gera (109); 11 others hit the marshalling yard
at Halle; 4 B-17s are lost and 2 damaged beyond repair; 17 airmen are KIA, 1
WIA and 33 MIA. The escort is 392 of 410 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  3. 26 of 27 P-51s fly scouting missions.
  4. 11 P-51s escort 5 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions.
  During the night, 3 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): The 523d Fighter Squadron, 27th
Fighter Group, moves form Ochey Airfield, Toul, France to Biblis, Germany
with P-47s.
    Ninth Air Force: In Germany, 99 B-26s, A-20s and A-26s hit marshalling
yards at Gottingen and Northeim and the city area of Herzberg, and drop
leaflets over 3 city areas; fighters fly escort, alerts, sweeps, and armed
reconnaissance, and support the US VIII Corps in the Eisenach area, and the
XX Corps E of the Werra River near Muhlhausen. Unit moves: 422d Night Fighter
Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command, from Florennes, Belgium to Strassfeld,
Germany with P-61s; 451st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 322d Bombardment
Group (Medium), from Beauvais Airfield, Tille, France to Le Culot, Belgium
with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 387 B-17s and B-24s,
with fighter escort, bomb marshalling yard flak positions and an ordnance
depot at Verona and a marshalling yard and small arms plant at Brescia; 179
other bombers sent against targets in N Italy are recalled; 81 P-38s
dispatched to bomb a bridge in Austria abort due to weather; 14 manage to
attack bridges near the Austro-Italian border; 6 P-51s (of 54 airborne)
strafe railroad targets in the Straubing-Plattling, Germany area; others fly
reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General Thomas C Darcy
takes command of the XXII Tactical Air Command.
  In Italy, A-20s and A-26s on night intruder missions during the night of
5/6 Apr, bomb several bridges in the Po River Valley, scoring good results on
8 of the targets, also hitting an assembly area along the Po River; XXII
Tactical Air Command fighters and fighter bombers hit lines of
communications, mainly in the Po Valley, and support US Fifth Army forces
attacking toward Massa Lombarda; B-25s cancel missions against targets on the
Brenner line due to weather, but hit 6 bridges in the C Po Valley and gun
positions at La Spezia. The 446th and 448th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium),
321st Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Solenzara, Corsica to Falconara,
Italy with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 11 B-24s from Guam Island pound positions and
airfield on Marcus Island; 23 from Angaur Island bomb barracks and a wharf at
Bunawan, Mindanao Island. 400 Kamikaze planes make an all-out effort against
Okinawa Island, Ryukyu Islands, shipping and beachheads; 2 destroyers, 2
ammunition ships, a mine sweeper and an LST are sunk; other vessels are
damaged; nearly 300 Japanese planes are expended. The 163d Liaison Squadron,
AAFPOA (attached to Tenth Army) begins a movement from Schofield Barracks,
Hawaii to Okinawa with L-5s.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): HQ 468th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy)
arrives at West Field, Tinian Island from India.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-25s bomb the town
of Hokko on Formosa. On Luzon Island, ground support sorties continue in
areas around Balete Pass, W of Ft Stotsenburg, N, NE, and S of Laguna de Bay,
and around Legaspi and fighters hit Carabao Island and Infanta. B-24s bomb a
town N of Cebu City while fighters support ground units on Cebu Island. A-20s
support ground forces on Negros Island. B-25s pound Bunawan on Mindanao
Island. B-24s bomb Jolo Island, Philippine Island defenses and ammunition
and supply dumps. At Manila US Army Forces, Pacific (AFPAC) is established
under General of the Army Douglas MacArthur. The 310th Fighter Squadron, 58th
Fighter Group, moves from San Jose, Mindoro Island to Mangaldan, Luzon with
P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2
WORLD WAR II IN THE NORTH PACIFIC by Kevin D. Hutchinson, 1994,
  ISBN-0-313-29130-6

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/2349Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:58:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

 >I may have missed it, but I haven't seen THE WAR LOVER mentioned.
 >
 >Not a particularly stellar piece of work and some of the effects are really
 >bad (like the obligatory couple falling in love acting in front of a blue
 >screen because they couldn't really transport them to a real exterior
 >location :-), but it also has some of the best.
 >
 >The B-17 flying sequences are quite good, but the best is part of the movie
 >is the minute or so long "B-17 Buzz Job."  That alone is worth the film.
 >:-)  The B-17, piloted by an irate guy decides to beat the crap out of the
 >airfield because they were sent on a (horror!) leaflet mission.
 >
 >The flying is real as is the B-17, no models used in this sequence.  I've
 >seen B-17s do "low approaches" but this kinda takes the cake... Plus, I
 >love the expression (or lack thereof) of the gum-chewing top turret gunner
 >who just kinda watches along.
 >
 >The rest of the movie can probably be tossed, but this part is worth keeping.
 >At least as a clip.
 >
 >(Yeah, I bought a copy... :-)
 >
 >--
 >\\ Robert J. Granvin                                 User Services Specialist

I believe it was Ernest K Gann (although ye olde gray matter would
not swear to it) wrote a book entitled EVERYTHING BUT THE FLACK
that described the resurrection, repair and flight of one of the
B-17s in the movie from th SW USA to England.  The part about them
landing in Portugal and being thrown in jail was a riot.  I highly
recommend the book for light reading.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:36:43 -0500
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies

A couple that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

        Von Ryan's Express
        Merrill's Marauders

Also I saw a promo that A&E is going to be showing "The Winds of War"
sometime in late April. I think this might be the first time it's been
shown since the original broadcast.

-------------------------------------------
Rod Rupert    rrupert@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:40:06 PST
From:    "Glen A. Baldridge" <Glen_Baldridge@CCMAIL.MEDICUS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Hitler's Body

     Some comments on the following story:

     >From the DoD Newswire 3 April 1995
     >:REPORT: USSR HAD HITLER'S BODY

     >Eva Braun swallowed poison to die with him.

     Wouldn't Eva Braun have used one of the infamous cyanide capsules?

     On this note and for interest to the list, until I saw the TV show
     mentioned in prior posts, I did not realize that these capsules were
     made of glass that were bitten into.  I had always thought that they
     were like a Contact (plastic) capsule.

     >The remains of Nazi propaganda minister Josef Goebbels, his wife,
     >Magda, and their six children also were taken.

     The show stated that Magda, after combing her children's hair and
     waiting for them to go to sleep, murdered each one by placing a
     capsule in each one's teeth and then forcing their teeth together to
     break the capsule.

     >Since the end of World War II, there have been numerous rumors
     >about Hitler's fate. Historians say he shot and killed himself in his
     >Berlin bunker on April 30, 1945.

     The show also addressed this question.  It stated that the autoposy
     done by the Russians on Hitler showed glass fragments in his mouth.
     It also stated that if he had used a cyanide capsule, the rapid effect
     of the cyanide would have made it impossible for him to have shot
     himself, that he must have been shot by his assistant (name?) for
     insurance.  Can anyone address the speed it took for the cyanide
     capsules to take effect?

     Glen Baldridge
     Glen_Baldridge@ccmail.medicus.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:31:05 +1000
From:    "Wilber Williams, Prentice Centre" <CCWILBER@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: WEAP: Attack Transports

Ed Kettler was telling us a couple of days ago about Attack Transports (APAs),
and whether they carried LCVPs or LCMs.

Since I first read Kenneth Dodson's "Away All Boats!" somewhere around 25
years ago, I've always wonderered what the initials in things like "LCVP",
"LCM", "LST" , and so on, mean. Can anyone give details of these, and some
information on the boats themselves.


Thanks,
Wilber

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                           w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au       |
|Prentice Centre                           Telephone : +61 7 365 4232    |
|The University of Queensland              Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477    |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA              Pager : +61 7 831 6199 #20702 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:03:07 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: U Boats Offshore - Book q...

John Brewer wrote:

>The story is quite gripping, and I was wondering if anyone knew of
any books written about this oddesy, or further information regarding
this occurrance?

Hoyt's book is the only place I've read about this particular incident; he
gives the Eastern Sea Frontier War Diary and the CGR-3070's own patrol report
as his sources. I would think the former would be available from the Navy and
the latter from the Coast Guard.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:16:30 EDT
From:    Ralph Fasano <RFAS8815@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Naval Archives Internet Address?

Would anyone know the net address of the US Naval Archives? I'm doing some
research and this would help me greatly.

Thanks,

Ralph Fasano    rfas8815@uriacc.uri.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Apr 1995 to 5 Apr 1995
***********************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 5 Apr 1995 to 6 Apr 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 50 messages totalling 1502 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Raid on Cabanatuan #12
  2. WEAP: Attack Transports -- MODEL reissued!
  3. Condor Bomber - TV Bomb? (2)
  4. Movies
  5. INF: USN Chronology 04-06-95
  6. World War II Movies
  7. SS and party membership
  8. MEDIA:Hitler's Body
  9. Great World War II movies.
 10. WEAP: Attack Transports (6)
 11. Whitmann vs Pool
 12. good books on the Pacific
 13. Weap: Fritz-X
 14. WEAP: Fw-200 Condor and TV-guided bomb
 15. Naval Archives Internet A
 16. Wehrmacht Atrocities
 17. REF
 18. Russia Enters the Pacific
 19. WWII Movies (3)
 20. Save one for Mainz-Reply (2)
 21. <No subject given>
 22. 1995 Ghost Calendar (2)
 23. WEAP: Ship designations (was: Attack Transports) (2)
 24. V-E Commemoration
 25. B-17 In Kansas City
 26. World War II Movies -Reply
 27. MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.2
 28. WEAP: LC designations
 29. MOVIE:  Battleground
 30. Spam (2)
 31. WEAP:   LST, LCM, LCVP etc. designations
 32. THUNDERBOLT
 33. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-APR-1945
 34. "US Warships of World War II"
 35. WEAP: Attack Transports -Reply
 36. REF -Reply
 37. Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply
 38. Ahnenerbe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 21:41:23 -0700
From:    James Wilson <Wilpro@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Raid on Cabanatuan #12

INSTALLMENT TWELVE IN A SERIES

Raid on Cabanatuan
a scenario of the published book
"Raid on Cabanatuan"
by Forrest Bryant Johnson
(C) 1988 A Thousand Autumns Press
all rights reserved
REPRODUCED ELECTRONICALLY WITH PERMISSION
4/5/95

January 28. (Night)
--------------------

Lt. Col. Mucci and his Rangers meet with Filipino guerrilla captain
Joson who begins to guide them to Captain Pajota and the POW camp. The
Rangers cross 25 miles of flat land, narrowly avoiding detection by
Japanese patrols and convoys moving north in retreat.

January 29. (Day)
------------------

Captain Pajota's guerrillas mobilize from the mountains and small farms
and villages to meet and prepare to assist the Rangers.

Mucci and his Rangers along with Capt. Joson and his guerrillas arrive
at Barrio (village) Balangkare. They link up with the Alamo Scout teams
who made it through safely. Captain Pajota and some of his men arrive
after learning of the Japanese troop movement in retreat north along the
road in front of the POW camp and of Oyabu's men camped at the Cabu
River. Lt. Col. Mucci sends a radio message... "New developments...
24 hour delay..."

January 29. (Dusk)
-------------------

The Rangers and guerrilla move on another two miles to Barrio Platero.
Now they are only two miles from the POW camp. They are greeted at
the village by 20 beautiful girls who are sent from other villages for
the special visitors. In tribute, a touching scene takes place that has
a strong emotional effect on the Rangers - The girls sing "God Bless
America."

The Platero Filipinos entertain the Americans with folk dances, food and
song while the Scouts and guerrillas continue to keep the POW camp and
Japanese commander Oyabu's force at Cabu Bridge under surveillance.

January 30. (Morning)
-----------------------

The American surveillance of the Japanese continues by the Scouts
while the Rangers gather to learn of Captain Prince's plan for the raid.
The plan is altered as new information arrives by runners from the
Scouts.

The raid is now scheduled for that evening.



--- TO BE CONTINUED ---
(For info on obtaining a copy of the Book and/or scenario,  and or
missed List episodes, E-Mail:  Jim Wilson :  Wilpro@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 00:34:15 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports -- MODEL reissued!

> Ed Kettler was telling us a couple of days ago about Attack Transports (APAs),
> and whether they carried LCVPs or LCMs.
>
> Since I first read Kenneth Dodson's "Away All Boats!" somewhere around 25
> years ago, I've always wonderered what the initials in things like "LCVP",
> "LCM", "LST" , and so on, mean. Can anyone give details of these, and some
> information on the boats themselves.
>
> Thanks,
> Wilber

Wilber, et al:

     Revell/Monogram has reissued its Attack Transport RANDALL kit
for about $12.00 US -- also the Seaplane Tender kit for about the
same.

     Those classic old kits are beautiful to behold.  Someone at
R/M had the creative sense to reissue them in their orginal box
designs.  Gosh!  35 years ago was only yesterday!  :-)

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:01:03 -0700
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

TV guided bombs were used by both the Germans and the Americans.
Though not quite the same thing, by the way, Lt Joseph Kennedy USN
(brother of JFK) was killed aboard an explosive laden Liberator
bomber about to be sent against a target by means of TV remote control.

Sidney.


--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 02:44:15 -0400
From:    Tripp Alyn <TRIPPALYN@IDS.NET>
Subject: Movies

To echo others, an interesting thread.....
How about:   IN HARMS WAY (John Wayne, Kirk Douglas, Henry Fonda)
             TASK FORCE (Gary Cooper--great scenes of CV-1 Langley
                and CV-3 Saratoga....old VE-6s trapping on Langley)
             2 Steve McQueen flicks--THE WAR LOVER (already mentioned)
                and HELL IS FOR HEROES about ground operations.
             DECISION BEFORE DAWN (Richard Basehart, Oskar Werner)-great
                look at Germany on the run in the fading days of spring.
             CROSS OF LORRAINE--French resistance
             CARRIER X--hardly ever shown, about a TBF squadron on the,
                probably LEX or SARA in the spring of 1942 (Don Ameche is
                the CAG...great role).
             30 SECONDS OVER TOKYO---great flying scenes about practice
                in Florida to prep the B-25 crews for carrier takeoffs.
                You will recognize the flying scenes that were used again
                in the opening scenes of MIDWAY (Spencer Tracy,Van
                        Johnson, Robert Mitchum).
             SAILOR OF THE KING---Jeffrey Hunter portrays a captured
                sailor who fights back aboard a German ship.
             OPERATION PACIFIC--John Wayne, Ward Bond aboard a sub
             FIGHTER SQUADRON - Edmund O'Brien and Robert Stack lead
                a P-47 squadron.  If you love "Jugs" try these scenes!
             FIGHTER COMMAND - Sterling Hayden, good shots of "little
                friends."
             COMMAND DECISION - Clark Gable leads this alternative to
                12 O'CLOCK HIGH..not bad either.
             RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP - Gable, Lancaster aboard a sub try to
                take a Jap....er, 'scuse me Sons of Nippon destroyer with
                a bow shot.
             DESTINATION TOKYO---Cary Grant, Alan Hale aboard a sub that
                slips into Tokyo Bay to radio barrage blimp positions to
                the Doolittle Raiders enroute aboard HORNET.
             I WANTED WINGS --Ray Milland, Wayne Morris...some of the best
                flight training scenes at the Texas air bases.
             BOMBADIER---training for...yes, you guessed it!
             AIR FORCE---John Garfield...a great look inside the B-17A and
                arrive in the Pacific on 7 Dec 41.
             DESPERATE JOURNEY---Ronald Reagan, Alan Hale.  Worth seeing
                to watch former Pres. Reagan drop a "big one" at the end.
             THEY WERE  EXPENDABLE ---PT boats @ Cavite, a holding action.
                The Duke, Robert Montgomery, Ward Bond.
             WINGS OF EAGLES---The Duke, Dan Dailey early days of naval
                aviation and development of the CVE "Jeep" carriers.
             oops! that was BOMBARDIER....
Enough already!  This ran longer than expected, hope it was helpful.
Tripp Alyn.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 04:00:17 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-06-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/06 Fri. First heavy attack is made by Japanese suicide planes
           on United States ships at Okinawa, Ryukyu Islands;
           similar attacks persist throughout the Okinawa campaign.
            United States naval vessels sunk, Okinawa area:
             Destroyer BUSH (DD-529), by suicide plane,
              27 d. 16'N., 127 d. 48'E.
             Destroyer COLHOUN (DD-801), damaged by suicide plane,
              27 d. 16'N., 127 d. 48'E.;
              sunk by United States forces.
             High-speed minesweeper EMMONS (DMS-22), damaged by
              suicide plane,
              26 d. 48'N., 128 d. 04'E.;
              sunk by United States forces.
             LST 447, by suicide plane,
              26 d. 09'N., 127 d. 18'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa area:
             Battleship NORTH CAROLINA (BB-55), accidentally by
              United States naval gunfire,
              26 d. 41'N., 129 d. 32'E.
             Light carrier SAN JACINTO (CVL-30), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 46'N., 129 d. 43'E.
             Light cruiser PASADENA (CL-65), accidentally by
              United States naval gunfire,
              27 d. 00'N., 129 d. 00'E.
             Destroyer MORRIS (DD-417), by suicide plane,
              25 d. 55'N., 127 d. 52'E.
             Destroyer BENNETT (DD-473), by suicide plane,
              27 d. 16'N., 127 d. 48'E.
             Destroyer HUTCHINS (DD-476), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 00'N., 128 d. 00'E.
             Destroyer LEUTZE (DD-481), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 38'N., 127 d. 28'E.
             Destroyer MULLANY (DD-528), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 24'N., 128 d. 10'E.
             Destroyer HARRISON (DD-573), by suicide plane,
              27 d. 05'N., 129 d. 22'E.
             Destroyer NEWCOMB (DD-586), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 38'N., 127 d. 28'E.
             Destroyer HOWORTH (DD-592), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 32'N., 127 d. 40'E.
             Destroyer HAYNESWORTH (DD-700), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 55'N., 129 d. 29'E.
             Destroyer HYMAN (DD-731), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 45'N., 127 d. 42'E.
             destroyer TAUSSIG (DD-746), by horizontal bomber,
              27 d. 07'N., 128 d. 39'E.
             Destroyer escort WITTER (DE-636), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 04'N., 127 d. 52'E.
             Destroyer escort FIEBERLING (DE-640), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 48'N., 128 d. 04'E.
             High-speed minesweeper RODMAN (DMS-21),
              by suicide plane,
              26 d. 48'N., 128 d. 04'E.
             High-speed minesweeper HARDING  (DMS-28), by horizontal
              bomber,
              26 d. 00'N., 127 d. 00'E.
             Minesweeper FACILITY (AM-133), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 00'N., 127 d. 00'E.
             Minesweeper RANSOM (AM-283), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 48'N., 128 04'E.
             Minesweeper DEFENSE (AM-317), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 38'N., 127 31'E.
             Minesweeper DEVASTOR (AM-318), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 26'N., 127'40'E.
             Motor minesweeper YMS 311, by suicide plane,
              26 d. 38'N., 127 d. 48'E,
             Motor minesweeper YMS 321, by suicide plane,
              26 d. 00'N,, 128 d. 00'E.
             Submarine chaser PCS-1390, accidentally by United States
              naval gunfire,
              26 d. 00'N., 128 d. 00'E.
             Attack transport BARNETT (APA-5), accidentally by United
              States naval gunfire,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 43'E.
             High-speed transport DANIEL T. GRIFFIN (APD-38), by
              collision,
              25 d. 57  N., 127 d. 57'E.
             Attack cargo ship LEO (AKA-60), accidentally by United
              States naval gunfire,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 43'E.
             LST 241, accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 1000, accidentally by United States naval gunfire,
              26 d. 21'N., 127 d. 44'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer AMATSUKAZE, by Army aircraft, off China,
              23 d. 55'N., 117 d. 40'E.
             Minesweeper NO. 22, by submarine BESUGO (SS-321),
              Netherlands East Indies area,
              08 d. 13'S., 119 d. 14'E.
             Coast defense vessels NOs. 2 and 134, by Army aircraft, off
              China,
              23 d. 55'N., 117 d. 40'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 06:56:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies

 >A couple that I don't think have been mentioned yet:
 >
 >        Von Ryan's Express
 >        Merrill's Marauders
 >
 >Also I saw a promo that A&E is going to be showing "The Winds of War"
 >sometime in late April. I think this might be the first time it's been
 >shown since the original broadcast.
 >
 >Rod Rupert    rrupert@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us

Read Herman Wouk's THE WINDS OF WAR; it is much better than the TV
film!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:34:40 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: SS and party membership

Here are a couple of people that did not have official party status but
were high members in the SS and the Reich government:

Heinrich Mueller: deputy chief of the Gestapo
Arthur Nebe: Chief of the Kriminal Police

Withholding party membership from Mueller had the effect of making him
work that much harder to show his loyalty to the regime.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:20:24 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Hitler's Body

Hello, Glen!

I want to say about 3 seconds.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:23:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Great World War II movies.

Hello, Lou!

> The most unforgettable foreign film I have seen is "The
>   Ballad of the Soldier," about a young Soviet rifleman's
>   anti-tank heroism and then rear-echelon adventures to
>   get home on leave to see his mother.

    I agree with this. Do you know if this can be found in video
stores? I have seen this one only once, but I have never forgotten it.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

 >
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:32:26 -0400
From:    Larry Bond <LLBond@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

Wilber, there is an excellent new book, called D-Day Ships, by Yves
Buffetaut, from the Naval Institute press. It describes in detail the
development and purpose of the many varieties of amphibiopus ships that
participated in the Normandy landings, as well as giving some excellent
history on the landings itself. Photos and drawings are excellent, and it's
well-written.

      Larry Bond

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:36:27 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Whitmann vs Pool

Hello, Matthew!

Thanks for the post. I wasn't aware of Mr. Pool. Even so, Wittmann
destroyed 138 tanks plus many many other vehicles. In your post about
Mr. Pool you mention only vehicles. Any idea how many tanks he
destroyed?

Thanks again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:30:27 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: good books on the Pacific

Yesterday, Arnaud asked:
>
> Can anyone recommend any Good book(s) of English language which
> provide a solid description of nav/air ops in the Pacific ?
> There are plenty of good "general" books describing the overall strategy, but
> I am looking for those rare books which focuse on describing operations, with fi-
> gures, unit names, Orders of Battles, and hard data.
> I wonder if anyone attempted to give a comprehensive picture of Jap and U.S. dep
> loyment at certain dates in the Pacific, with location of air assets and important
> ships etc. If not, I would be interested by such a project.

The full fifteen volumes of Samuel Elliot Morison's _History of United States
Naval Operations in World War II_ is quite detailed on "who, what, and where,"
although subsequent scholarship improves on the "why".  His later condensation
_The Two-Ocean War_ is more readable but lacks the detail that Arnaud is
probably looking for.  The same for Nick Van Der Vat's _The Pacific Campaign_,
although the latter does give a valuable British insight on what is often
portrayed as an all-American theater.

Our own listmember John Lundstrom's _The First Team_ and _The First Team in
the Guadalcanal Campaign_ are unmatched in their coverage of naval aviation.

I also second Scott's recomendation of Gordon Prange's books.
--
Peter Smith -- psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com
Data General Corp., Westboro, Massachusetts  (for whom I do not speak)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:35:35 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Weap: Fritz-X

In my Handy Dandy "Encyclopedia of WWII" the following is listed for Fritz-X:

The  Fritz-X was a German air-to-ground suided glide bomb, and was also
known as FX-1400 or SD-1400.  It could be controlled during its drop by an
observer in the parent aircraft passing commands via a radio link.  It was
basically a 1400 kg armor-piercing bomb to which small wings and a tail
unit containing the quidance mechanism had been added.  Signals recieved by
the radio reciever in the bomb caused 'spoilers' on the tail surface to be
raised into the airstream, thus modifying the bomb'd trajectory.
Development began in 1939 and final trials were done in Italy in early
1942.  Its most notable success was the sinking of the Italian battleship
Roma on 9 September 1943, which was achieved by hits with three Fritz-X
bombs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:54:18 -0400
From:    "Matthew R. Burchette" <Mathoo@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Fw-200 Condor and TV-guided bomb

Fellas,
If you want to know more about the Fritz X and other German guided missles
(sounds like the end of a Hallmark Hall of Fame TV show don't it?) Schiffer
Publishing has a good book out called German Guided Missiles ISBN :
0-88740-475-8. The book is mainly a photojournal but it does have enough text
to give you a good background on these weapons.
Matthew Burchette

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:35:09 GMT
From:    Dan Wilson <DWILSON3@EMAIL.USPS.GOV>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

     Can we add an explanation for the designations like "BB", "DD", "CV"
     and the like? This has mystified me for years and no one that I've
     talked to can provide an answer (even ex Navy types).


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: WEAP: Attack Transports
Author:  _WWII-L (SMTP.WWIIL) at SSWGATE
Date:    04/06/95 12:36 AM


Ed Kettler was telling us a couple of days ago about Attack Transports (APAs),
and whether they carried LCVPs or LCMs.

Since I first read Kenneth Dodson's "Away All Boats!" somewhere around 25
years ago, I've always wonderered what the initials in things like "LCVP",
"LCM", "LST" , and so on, mean. Can anyone give details of these, and some
information on the boats themselves.


Thanks,
Wilber

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                           w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au       |
|Prentice Centre                           Telephone : +61 7 365 4232    |
|The University of Queensland              Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477    |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA              Pager : +61 7 831 6199 #20702 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:49:36 -0400
From:    "Carl D. Fago" <cdf1@PSU.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Attack Transports

Well, as a list newbie and an ex-sailor I'll put my foot out...

BB = Battleship  (why "BB" and not "B", I don't know)
DD = Destroyer   (same as above)
DE = Destroyer, Escort
CV = Carrier, Fixed Wing
CVN = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Nuclear  (ok, not WWII)
LCT = Landing Craft, Tank
LST = Long Slow Target (ok, really Landing Ship, Tank)
LCM = Landing Craft, Mechanized

Just some off the top of my head.

 +-------------------------------+------------------------------+
 | *-=Carl=-* cdf1@psu.edu       | A sucking chest wound is     |
 |            Owner - ASL-L      | Nature's way of telling you  |
 | Carl Fago  State College, PA  | to slow down.                |
 +-------------------------------+------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:14:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Naval Archives Internet A

  The address is: Operational Archives Branch, Naval History Division,
Building 57, Washington Navy Yard, Washington DC 20374.  202-433-2210.
Director is Bernard Cavalcante.
  I believe WWII records have been transferred during the 1990s to the
Modern Military Branch, National Archives and Records Center, 7th St. and
Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC 20408.  The principal naval archivists
are Richard Von Doenhoff, 202-501-5671, Barry Zerby -4887, and Will Mahoney.
  The Operational Archives probably has retained microfilm copies of some of
the more important WWII files.

Edward Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:35:34 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities

Neil C. Carmichael <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV> writes:
> actually it was a book called Hitlers Tuetonic Knights, or something
> like that.  It was the first 10 SS division.  but I will look into
> the book you mentioned.

        I'm not quite sure what this is in response to, but there is
a book entitled, "Hitler's Tuetonic Knights: SS Panzers in Action",
which covers all of the SS *Panzer* and *Panzergrenadier* divisions.
The author is Bruce Quarrie.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
When we go into battle, we like to play music.
Loud music.  We find that it calms us...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:01:49 -0400
From:    Christopher Dale Bailey <cbailey@MENTOR.LGC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: REF

     This is my first posting on this list, so please bear with me.
I am a college student planning on majoring in history.  I have a
paper due on Rommel and would greatly appreciate anything anyone
wold like to contribute.  If you would advise any books or impart
any personal knowledge, it would be greatly appreciated.
                                             Chris Bailey
                                             La Grange College
                                             La Grange, GA
                              cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:06:33 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russia Enters the Pacific

Dear Terry,

The true IJA Kwangtung Army was largely gone by the time the Soviets
attacked it- it had been fed piecemeal into the Pacific campaigns in
1943-44, and bypassed, sunk at sea by Submarines Pacific, or beaten
in combat by US Marines and Army. The forces the Soviets overran
were newly raised divisions the Japanese themselves considered
inferior. I can provide some detail on the history of the Kwangtung
Army divisions if any one is interested.

Regards,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:54:51 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, mc killop wrote:

>  >I may have missed it, but I haven't seen THE WAR LOVER mentioned.
>
> I believe it was Ernest K Gann (although ye olde gray matter would
> not swear to it) wrote a book entitled EVERYTHING BUT THE FLACK
> that described the resurrection, repair and flight of one of the
> B-17s in the movie from th SW USA to England.  The part about them
> landing in Portugal and being thrown in jail was a riot.  I highly
> recommend the book for light reading.

EVERYTHING BUT THE FLAK.
     Martin Caidin.  Duell, Sloan & Pearce, 1964.

(yeah, I gotta a copy at home-- it IS neat!)


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:32:12 -0500
From:    Joseph Feld <joefeld@MAIL.IC.NET>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz-Reply

On 4 April 1995 Laurie Peloquin writes:
>According to statistics in Webster and Frankland _The Strategic Air
>Offensive against Germany 1939-1945_, Volume IV, Mainz was 61% destroyed
>by 1945, while Nuremberg was only 51% destroyed.  The city that was
>hardest hit was Wuppertal/Elberfield, at 94%.  Considering that it is
>located in the Ruhr Valley, where the greatest number of attacks
>occurred, this number is not surprising.  Even so, this devastation was
>the result of only one mission in June 1943.

I'm curious, does the reference you cite state a source for the data (i.e.
Allied bombeer crews, post-war surveys, etc.)?  The 80% figure I stated
earlier for Mainz was based on German figures (admittedly, some were
written thirty or forty years after the fact), and I'm wondering about the
discrepency.

Joseph Feld
joefeld@mail.ic.net
Ferndale, MI

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:03:19 -0400
From:    Christopher Dale Bailey <cbailey@MENTOR.LGC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

     I was researching the topic of Rommel in the library the other
day, and came across an intteresting article from National Review
magizine dated March 1, 1993.
     The article states that the balance of the entire war was
changed on December 11, 1941.  The article goes on to state that
Hitler did not have to declare war on the U.S., His treaty signed
with Japan only obligated him to go to war with Japan if they were
attacked by the United States.  This poses a question for me:

     1.  Suppose Hitler had declared neutrality in the Pacific.
Suppose he had gone before the Reichstang and declared that he had
no quarrel with the United States.  I wonder if FDR would have
dared asked for a declaration of war in the face of such generous
German sentiments????????????????????????


_________________________________________________________________Chris Bailey                            LaGrange College
LaGrange, GA                            cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:43:26 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: 1995 Ghost Calendar

I am looking at the Me-108 "Taifun" on the April page of the 1995 Ghost
calendar and I have two questions if anyone else has the same calendar:

1) There appears to be two machine gun barrels added UNDERNEATH the wings -
so was the Me-108 armed in this manner or is this an increadibly bad
restoration?

2) there appears to be two cowling openings on the upper cowling - are
these air intacs/gun openings or are they fake gun openings on another bad
restoration project?

I have seen several "Taifuns" byt cannot remember if I saw any preperations
for carrying weapons.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:18:54 -0500
From:    Joe Pohlmann <pohlmann@PPCLUS.MONSANTO.COM>
Subject: Re: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

Terry,

    The Fritz X radio guided bomb was able to be controlled from the
bombadier of the aircraft (usually a Condor or a Do-217E-2), but it
was not TV guided.  According to the Discovery Channel's report (and
my own reading), the Fritz X was controlled much like a radio controlled
airplane today would be.  It was a "line of sight" controlled bomb, which
meant that the bombadier would have to watch the bomb out of his bomb
bay and guide it to its target.  The disadvantage to this was the fact
that as the bomb fell further away, it got smaller to the bombadier, and
of course that made it harder to aim.

    The TV bomb, which wasn't designed until much later, allowed the
bombadier to watch the target through the nose of the bomb.  Therefore,
as the bomb fell further away from the bomber, it was getting closer to
the target, making it EASIER to hit the intended target.

    There were no operating TV guided bombs used during WWII (I think).


Just my $0.02,

Joe Pohlmann
pohlmann@ppclus.monsanto.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:11:33 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

        LCVP= Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:18:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <ECZ5JXJ@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: WWII Movies

Since someone mentioned the Best Years of Our Lives, and that by rights is
really a POSTwar movie (and the list of movies about immediate postwar life is
as endless as a list of actual WWII movies), I think it's fair to post THE
THIRD MAN w/Trevor Howard, Orson Welles, and Joseph Cotton.  If just one per-
son who has never seen that movie reads this & rents it, this posting is justi-
fied.  One of the best WWII philosophical movies ever made, because
it's by Grahame Greene, who knew how to shave an argument, besides being shot
in Vienna, besides the oh-so-famous score.

And category of "forest for the trees," I don't think anyone
has posted Noel Coward`s IN WHICH WE SERVE--NOT a documentary, a regular,
acted out movie about a destroyer crew.

Also, to be fair, 5 Fingers is a thriller set in WWII because it's based on a
true story.  But the list of thrillers/spy movies set in WWII because wars al-
ways produce good material for thrillers is endless: what about Eye of the Need
le?, Key to Rebecca? etc., etc.  AMC is always showing one w/Rex Harrison. What
do these count as?

Finally, one more immediate postwar, unfair, but if just one person sees. . .
STRAY DOG--exJapanese Imperial Army soldier trying to reintegrate self into nor
mal life, very easy to get on video, because so famous--youthful Mifune for all
of you Tora Tora Tora fans, one of the movies that made him a star.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:28:14 GMT
From:    Dan Wilson <DWILSON3@EMAIL.USPS.GOV>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

     I suffer from newbieitis as well. The BB and DD are the mystifing
     ones. Why the double letters? The V in CV is a little troubling as
     well. Standing by for the heavyweights.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: WEAP: Attack Transports
Author:  _WWII-L (SMTP.WWIIL) at SSWGATE
Date:    04/06/95 01:27 PM


Well, as a list newbie and an ex-sailor I'll put my foot out...

BB = Battleship  (why "BB" and not "B", I don't know)
DD = Destroyer   (same as above)
DE = Destroyer, Escort
CV = Carrier, Fixed Wing
CVN = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Nuclear  (ok, not WWII)
LCT = Landing Craft, Tank
LST = Long Slow Target (ok, really Landing Ship, Tank)
LCM = Landing Craft, Mechanized

Just some off the top of my head.

 +-------------------------------+------------------------------+
 | *-=Carl=-* cdf1@psu.edu       | A sucking chest wound is     |
 |            Owner - ASL-L      | Nature's way of telling you  |
 | Carl Fago  State College, PA  | to slow down.                |
 +-------------------------------+------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:54:24 -0400
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

LST  Landing Ship, Tank
LCT  Landing Craft, Tank
LCI  Landing Craft, Infantry
LCM  Landing Craft, Medium
LCVP Landing Craft, Vehicular and Personnel

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:47:29 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Ship designations (was: Attack Transports)

Carl D. Fago wrote:

> Well, as a list newbie and an ex-sailor I'll put my foot out...
>
> BB = Battleship  (why "BB" and not "B", I don't know)
> DD = Destroyer   (same as above)
> DE = Destroyer, Escort
> CV = Carrier, Fixed Wing
> CVN = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Nuclear  (ok, not WWII)
> LCT = Landing Craft, Tank
> LST = Long Slow Target (ok, really Landing Ship, Tank)
> LCM = Landing Craft, Mechanized

Well, I'm not an ex-sailor, nor a naval expert, but I will add some more:

CC  = Battle Cruiser? (CV-2 Lexington was laid down as CC-1)
CA  = Cruiser, Armored (really Cruiser, Heavy)
CL  = Cruiser, Light
CVB = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Big(?)
CVE = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Escort
CVL = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Light
CVA = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Attack (not WWII)
CVS = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Antisubmarine (not WWII)
SC  = Submarine Chaser
SS  = Submarine
SSN = Submarine, Nuclear (not WWII)

I guess that US Navy wants to maintain at least two letters per designator,
so, if only one letter is needed, it's simply duplicated (BB, DD, SS, etc).

Could anyone confirm if the following ones are correct, or if not, could
anyone complete or explain them?

AM  = Auxiliary, Minesweeper? (Minesweeper)
AMc = Auxiliary, Minesweeper, coastal? (Minesweeper, Coastal)
CM  = ?? (Minelayer)
DM  = (ex)Destroyer, Minelayer? (Light Minelayer)
DMS = (ex)Destroyer, Minesweeper, Speed? (High Speed Minesweeper)
YMS = (Y)??, Minesweeper, (S)?? (Motor Minesweeper)
APD = Auxiliary, (P)??, (ex)Destroyer? (High Speed Transport)
AR  = Auxiliary, Repair (Repair Vessel)
AS  = Auxiliary, Submarine (Submsrine Tender)
ASR = Auxiliary, Submarine, Rescue (Submarine Rescue Vessel)
AV  = Auxiliary, Fixed Wing (Seaplane Tender)
AVD = Auxiliary, Fixed Wing, Destroyer (Seaplane Tender, Destroyer)
AVP = Auxiliary, Fixed Wing, (P)?? (Small Seaplane Tender)

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:48:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: V-E Commemoration

Dick:

My cheapie internet provider doesn't include sender's address
in the header; only the wwii address.

Can you tell me your name and phone number here in Kansas City
so I can call?

george.bauer@citynet.com

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:45:00 -0600
From:    George Bauer <george.bauer@CITYNET.COM>
Subject: B-17 In Kansas City

The B-17 which will be in Kansas City for V-E day commemoration
is EAA's Aluminum Overcast.

I have been working on the Aviation Committee, which is involved
(among other things) with arranging for the Warbirds.

george.bauer@citynet.com

 * RoboBOARD/FX 1.04

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:50:47 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies -Reply

        Another great movie not mentioned, The 49th Parallel.  I think
Laurence Olivier was in it.  It was about German U-Boat sailors making
their way through Canada prior to U.S. entry into the war.

Patrick Charles
pchuck@u.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:33:47 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WWII Movies

Does anybody ever remember seeing a movie called "Soul Survivor"?  It
is somewhat based on the story of the "Lady Be Good" except its a
ghost story too.  I really enjoyed that movie.

Another one that sticks in my mind is "Play Dirty" which is set in
North Africa around an LRDG (Long Range Desert Group - British)
mission.  Neat scene where they are trapped in a gully between a
German column and an Italian column and to get out they pump a few
mortar rounds in both directions to make them think the opposite
column is enemy.  While the Jerries and Italians are slugging it out
between themselves they merrily drive down the gully and escape.
Classic!

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 16:38:13 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.2

Continuing with the Philadelphia Inquirer article, which was written
by Tom Infield, an Inquirer staff writer.


        For more than 2 1/2 years, U.S. forces had been fighting their way,
from island to island, toward Japan; from Guadalcanal to Tarawa to
Saipan to Guam to Peleliu to Iwo Jima.
        In each place, the Japanese had refused to give up, even when they
were clearly beaten.  Their Bushido code of honor required them to die
first.  Great numbers of Americans died with them.  The previous battle,
at Iwo, had cost close to 7,000 U.S. lives.
        No one was looking forward to Okinawa.  It was to be the next-to-
last hop in the U.S. island-hopping campaign.  The final hop, according
to plan, would be to Japan itself.

        April 1 was Easter Sunday.  As the soldiers and Marines of the U.S.
10th Army went ashore, a fleet of 1200 ships established a protective
ring around Okinawa.
        Stationed at the outer edge of the ring was a group of destroyers
equipped with the latest radar gear.  Their job was to warn the fleet -
and their men on land - if planes were coming their way from Japan,
only 350 miles to the north, or from major Japanese airfields on
Formosa.
        Julian F. Becton, then a lieutenant commander, was captain of a
destroyer on this "picket line."  A 1931 graduate of the Naval Academy,
he had been at sea in the Atlantic when the Japanese attacked Pearl
Harbor.  Later, he had been at the naval battle of Guadalcanal, one
of the most intense sea fights ever.  He had helped bombard Utah Beach
when the Allies invaded Normandy.  He had fought in the Battle of Leyte
Gulf, in the Philippines.
        He already had experienced more combat than most sailors in
history.  But nothing in his experience prepared him for April 16, 1945.
        As always, Becton's crew was at battle stations when the first
glow of light warmed the sky.  Dawn was the most dangerous moment of the
day, when enemy planes could appear as if from nowhere.  Becton was
permitting a few men at a time to leave their stations to go to
breakfast.
        He knew kamikazes were coming his way, if not today, then tomorrow
or the next day.  The only chance the Japanese had to win the Battle
of Okinawa was to sink the American fleet.  The best weapons they had
left were the brave kamikaze pilots who crashed planes loaded with
TNT onto the decks of ships.
        _KAMIKAZE_ means "divine wind" in Japanese.  The term referred to
the miraculous salvation of Japan in the 13th century by a typhoon
that blew away a Mongol invasion fleet.  The Japanese longed for
another miracle to blow away the Americans.
        A few of the kamikazes were skilled pilots.  Many more were just
kids who knew little more than how to take off and steer their planes.
Really, they were nothing more than guided missiles, or maybe smart-
bombs.  But they had a religious zeal to die for their emperor.
        "They were all brainwashed, I guess," Becton said recently at his
home.  "You feared 'em, sure.  They kept on coming.  You could shoot
'em down, but more kept on coming after that."
        At 8:20 a.m., a squall of kamikazes suddenly appeared as spots of
white light on the Laffey's radar screens.  The planes were still
eight miles away, to the north.  The Laffey radioed the alarm to the
fleet, and got ready to defend itself.
        Soon, lookouts with binoculars saw the first four planes: all
Val dive-bombers, coming in from starboard.  Becton's job as
captain was to keep the ship turned sideways to the attackers, so
all the deck guns could be brought to bear.
        "But then the planes split," he said.  "Two of them went for
our fantail, and two of them were off to our left.  We got the ones
that were closest to us...We shot them down and then swung around
to the others.  We got the third one and then...."
        And then a small vessel, a landing craft, got the fourth.
        The guns suddenly fell silent.  Men on deck began to cheer, but
Becton barely had time to "exhale one deep breath of relief"
before another dive-bomber appeared high in the sky.
        The ack-ack guns on the starboard side opened up.  Some of
them, double-barreled 20mm guns known to sailors a pom-poms,
could spit out 450 rounds a minute.  Others were 40mm guns that
could do 160 a minute.  The plane broke into pieces and splintered
into the water.
        Now the fight was beginning in earnest.  Japanese planes were
coming from what seemed like all points of the compass, from high
and low.  Wearing a steel helmet and a life vest, Becton had to
stand out in the open so he could see what was going on.
        "The first plane that hit us came right in over the stern,"
he said.  The plane crashed into the big gun turret on the fantail.
Then a second plane crashed into the ship.  Then another. And
another.  And another.
        "Each time one crashed, there was always a flood of gasoline
from the plane - and one hell of a fire."
        "Near the end of the action, one of my officers, Frank Manson,
came to me and said, 'Captain, we're in pretty bad shape aft.  Do
you think you'll have to abandon ship?'
        "It never entered my mind to abandon ship.  The ship might sink
under us.  We might not be able to sail her.  But I wasn't going to
abandon her.
        "So I said, 'No, Frank, I'll never abandon ship as long as a gun
will fire.'"
        That last statement, later conveyed by Manson to reporters, was to
become a famous slogan in Navy history.
        The Laffey remained in almost continuous combat for an hour and
20 minutes, an unheard-of length of time.  Besides the five planes
that crashed into it, there were two that dropped bombs on it.  On
its own, it-managed to down nine of the 22 attackers.  Thirty-two
men aboard ship were dead and 71 were wounded.  The ship couldn't
be steered, and had to be towed into port.
        But it was still afloat.  Fifty years later, it remains a
famous ship of Okinawa, now a museum piece in dry dock at
Charleston SC.  For his role in saving it, Becton won the Navy
Cross in recognition of "extraordinary heroism."

To be continued....


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 16:17:41 -0500
From:    Kelvin Brent Luther <umluther@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: WEAP: LC designations

Here's a list I found of US Navy landing craft designations.
LCA       landing craft, assault
LCC       landing craft, control
LCF       landing craft, flak
LC (FF)   landing craft, flotilla flagship
LCI       landing craft, infantry
LCI (L)   landing craft, infantry (large)
LCM       landing craft, mechanized
LCP       landing craft, personnel
LCR       landing craft, rubber
LCS       landing craft, support
LCS (S)   landing craft, support (small)
LCT       landing craft, tank
LCT (R)   landing craft, tank (rocket)
LCV       landing craft, vehicle
LCVP      landing craft, vehicle, personnel
LSD       landing ship, dock
LSM       landing ship, medium
LSM (R)   landing ship, medium (rocket)
LST       landing ship, tank
LST (H)   landing ship, tank (hospital)
LSV       landing ship, vehicle
LVT       landing vehicle, tracked


Courtesy of "World War II:  4139 Strange and Fascinating Facts, Don
McCombs and Fred L. Worth

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 16:06:08 CST
From:    Gary R Speer <rggrs@UTXDP.DP.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: MOVIE:  Battleground

Austin, Texas held its annual "Spam-Arama" carnival this past weekend.
There were contests to see how far teams could throw Spam before it hit
the ground (like an egg-toss) or fell apart before the end of the contest.
(I do not know the winning distance.)  And, there was a cook-off contest, much
like the proverbial "Chili-cooking contests" Texans are prone to hold anytime!

In watching the vidoetape "Battleground", one scene near the end of the movie
shows C-47's re-supplying troops at Bastogne.  As men unrolled one of the
parachute packs, out rolled two cases labeled "SPAM."  A soldier looked at
the cases with a pained expression as he turned his head away in mild disgust.
I think I understand why the actor portrayed the scene in this manner!

Gary Speer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 17:12:07 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Spam

There is a famous Sadsack cartoon of Sadsack being served spam (with the
sound of it being placed on the tray  as "SPAM!") and he gets a package
from home, and inside is a shipment of Spam from Mom!-Drew


Drew Philip Halevy    |
Grad Student          |         Is it tomorrow,
Department of History |         or just the end of time?
University of Arkansas|         -J.H.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU |

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:29:56 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@HHIPE.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship designations (was: Attack Transports)

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Jorge Merino wrote:

> AM  = Auxiliary, Minesweeper? (Minesweeper)
Fleet minesweeper, steel (Concerning minesweepers, there are valid
reasons for distinguishing between hulls of steel, wood or composites.)

> AMc = Auxiliary, Minesweeper, coastal? (Minesweeper, Coastal)
Coastal minesweeper, wooden

> YMS = (Y)??, Minesweeper, (S)?? (Motor Minesweeper)
Motor Mine Sweeper. The 'Y' class is filled with lighters, drydocks,
derricks, and all kinds of auxiliaries.

The others are correct. My list is slightly outdated: I copied from 'Jane's
fighting ships of WWII'.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:35:49 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@HHIPE.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: 1995 Ghost Calendar

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Ron Babuka wrote:

> 1) There appears to be two machine gun barrels added UNDERNEATH the wings -
> so was the Me-108 armed in this manner or is this an increadibly bad
> restoration?

I never heard of any armament on a Bf 108. But some people have a bad
attitude and want to make them look like Bf 109s?

> 2) there appears to be two cowling openings on the upper cowling - are
> these air intacs/gun openings or are they fake gun openings on another bad
> restoration project?

The engine was the Argus As 10C : an inverted-Vee in-line air-cooled
engine. So it is perfectly normal for such an engine to have cooling
intakes in the upper part of the engine cowling.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 18:20:48 CST
From:    Gary R Speer <rggrs@UTXDP.DP.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:   LST, LCM, LCVP etc. designations

List verified by two books:   Assault from the Sea 1939-45 by
  J. D. Ladd, 1976; Hippocrene Books, Call number  U 261 L32 1976B;
  Allied Landing Craft of WWII*; Naval Institute Press, 1985;  U 261 A45 1985
       *(best detailed b/w pictures)

APA Auxiliary Personnel Attack
LBK Landing Barge, Kitchen
LCA Landing Craft, Assault
LCC  Landing Craft, Control
LCI() Landing Craft, Infantry (several types D,G,M,L,R)
LCM  Landing Craft, Mechanised
LCP  Landing Craft, Personnel
LCR() Landing Craft, Rubber (large, small)
LCT() Landing Craft, Tank (A-armoured, R-rocket)
LCV  Landing Craft, Vehicle
LCVP Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel
LSD  Landing Ship, Dock
LSI() Landing Ship, Infantry (large, medium, small)
LSM() Landing Ship, Medium (R-rocket)
LST  Landing Ship, Tank
LSV  Landing Ship, Vehicle
LVT  Landing Vehicle, Tracked

Hope this is not confusing.

Gary Speer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:12:20 -0400
From:    Laurie Peloquin <lpeloqui@MC6ADM.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Save one for Mainz-Reply

> >According to statistics in Webster and Frankland _The Strategic Air
> >Offensive against Germany 1939-1945_, Volume IV, Mainz was 61% destroyed
> >by 1945, while Nuremberg was only 51% destroyed.  The city that was
> >hardest hit was Wuppertal/Elberfield, at 94%.  Considering that it is
> >located in the Ruhr Valley, where the greatest number of attacks
> >occurred, this number is not surprising.  Even so, this devastation was
> >the result of only one mission in June 1943.

>From Joseph Feld:

> I'm curious, does the reference you cite state a source for the data (i.e.
> Allied bombeer crews, post-war surveys, etc.)?  The 80% figure I stated
> earlier for Mainz was based on German figures (admittedly, some were
> written thirty or forty years after the fact), and I'm wondering about the
> discrepency.

The Webster and Frankland book is the official history of the air war
from the British side, published in 1961.  The results include U.S.
attacks.  For that particular table they cite the British Bombing Survey
Unit.  I have checked the United States Strategic Bombing Survey and
could find no comparable information.  Either they accepted the British
results or it appears in a section of the USSBS which is not published in
the books I have.  Where did you find the German figures?  They could be
useful for the paper I am working on right now, especially if they are so
different from Allied statistics.

Laurie Peloquin
Wilfrid Laurier University
lpeloqui@mc6adm.uwaterloo.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:56:24 -0400
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam

Drew,

Drew,

Could you possibly do a Spamscan?

er, could you possibly make that a gif or jpeg?

I, for one, would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

Emery

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:

> There is a famous Sadsack cartoon of Sadsack being served spam (with the
> sound of it being placed on the tray  as "SPAM!") and he gets a package
> from home, and inside is a shipment of Spam from Mom!-Drew
>
>
> Drew Philip Halevy    |
> Grad Student          |         Is it tomorrow,
> Department of History |         or just the end of time?
> University of Arkansas|         -J.H.
> DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU |
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:19:29 -0400
From:    "Paul C. Perkins, M.D." <PERK1518@AOL.COM>
Subject: THUNDERBOLT

Dear Mr. Fetters,

   I've tried e-mailing you direct using NASEM015@SIVM.SI.EDU and
NASEMO15@SIVM.SI.EDU and have been turfed into the binary ether twice.
Members of the WWII-LIST .... my apologies.
   Thanks for your response to my posting. I would very much appreciate any
names and addresses of P-47 pilots, mechanics, armorers, 1st,2nd,3rd, or 4th
ground echelon personnel. The mechanical and technical side of these machines
are well covered.      The opportunity to capture the human side is slipping
away.
     I look forward to hearing from you.
     Thanks again.

Paul C. Perkins, M.D.
PERK1518@aol.com
1518 State Route 343
Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387
Paul C. Perkins, M.D.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:31:58 EDT
From:    John Davis <jbdavis@NANDO.NET>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-APR-1945

On 06-APR-1945, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the U.S. 1st Army sector, the XVIII Airborne Corps
begins an offensive against the Ruhr pocket. The VII Corps is approaching
the Weser. The V Corps reaches the Weser and establishes a bridgehead over
it. In the 9th Army sector, the XIII Corps attacks across the Weser.
Elements of the XIX Corps cross the Weser near Grohnde. In the French 1st
Army sector, the French II Corps reaches the Neckar near Lauffen.

Eastern Front - The Russians break through the Germans in several places in
the Danzig area. The 2nd White Russian Front opens a major offensive
against Konigsberg.

Philippines - In the XI Corps area, an offensive is launched on Mount
Mataba.

Okinawa - The 6th Marine Division makes very little progress towards the
north on the Isthmus of Ishikawa. Heavy fighting is taking place in the
southern sector. Aircraft from the 5th Fleet attack Kyushu Island to
prevent the planned Japanese attack by kamikazes on the U.S. naval force at
Okinawa. Some kamikazes do get through however and sink two destroyers and
damage the light carrier San Jacinto. The Japanese 2nd Fleet sails from
Honshu Island towards Okinawa.

=============================================================================

Sources: "United States Army in World War II, Chronology 1941-1945" compiled
by Mary H. Williams, Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of
the Army, "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi,
"Facts On File Yearbook 1945, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L.
Lapica.

Copyright 1995 by John B Davis, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.webcom.com in directory /pub/jbd/www
and can be accessed via the WWW by URL: http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                           |                      jbdavis@nando.net
Cary, North Carolina                 |            http://www.webcom.com/~jbd/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:05:50 -0400
From:    Paul Silverstone <paulh@PHANTOM.COM>
Subject: "US Warships of World War II"

My book, US Warships of World War II, was published in 1965 by Ian Allan
in London, and Doubleday in New York.  Since that time it has been in
print, most recently reprinted by the US Naval Institute in 1989 with an
errata page at the end.
Many of you will I hope recognize the value of this book but it is very
out of date.  Much new and additional information can be added.  I have
proposed to Naval Institute Press to published a new revised and expanded
book which would take up two volumes with much more information on
individual ships and new pictures.  But they have declined.
A bit of letter-writing from those interested might help move them.
United States Naval Institute
2062 Generals Highway
Annapolis MD 21401

Paul H. Silverstone

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:42:02 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: WEAP: Attack Transports -Reply

>>> Carl D. Fago <cdf1@PSU.EDU>  4/6/95, 10:49am >>>
>Well, as a list newbie and an ex-sailor I'll put my foot out...
>BB = Battleship  (why "BB" and not "B", I don't know)
>.DD = Destroyer   (same as above)
>DE = Destroyer, Escort
>CV = Carrier, Fixed Wing
>CVN = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Nuclear  (ok, not WWII)
>LCT = Landing Craft, Tank
>LST = Long Slow Target (ok, really Landing Ship, Tank)
>LCM = Landing Craft, Mechanized

I have heard the LST also called Large Slow Target.....

Neil Carmichael

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:48:40 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: REF -Reply

Try "The Rommel Papers"  Edited by B.H.Liddell-Hart.  its a really
good book.

Neil Carmichael

>>> Christopher Dale Bailey <cbailey@MENTOR.LGC.PEACHNET.EDU>
4/6/95, 12:01pm >>>
     This is my first posting on this list, so please bear with me.
I am a college student planning on majoring in history.  I have a
paper due on Rommel and would greatly appreciate anything anyone wold
like to contribute.  If you would advise any books or impart any
personal knowledge, it would be greatly appreciated.
                                             Chris Bailey
                                             La Grange College
                                             La Grange, GA
                              cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:45:37 -0400
From:    "Neil C. Carmichael" <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht Atrocities -Reply

Your Right!!! That is the book I was speaking about.
Neil

>>> Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>  4/6/95, 11:35am >>>
Neil C. Carmichael <neil.carmichael@ARCH2.NARA.GOV> writes:
> actually it was a book called Hitlers Tuetonic Knights, or
something
> like that.  It was the first 10 SS division.  but I will look into
> the book you mentioned.

        I'm not quite sure what this is in response to, but there is
a book entitled, "Hitler's Tuetonic Knights: SS Panzers in Action",
which covers all of the SS *Panzer* and *Panzergrenadier* divisions.
The author is Bruce Quarrie.
--
Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com
When we go into battle, we like to play music.
Loud music.  We find that it calms us...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:54:29 -0400
From:    Jodi Berls <Jberls@AOL.COM>
Subject: Ahnenerbe

Apologies to all if this ends up being posted twice, but it appears to have
bounced back at me for some reason.

Ron Charlton wrote:

> please permit me to make a request again for sources of
information about the Ahnenerbe, the ideological and cultural research
organization within the SS.

There is a brief-but-somewhat-gruesome description of this organization in
*The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945* by Michael Burleigh and Wolfgang Wipperm

ann. The Ahnenerbe does appear to be a fascinating topic worthy of some study
though -- one of their charges was to try to scientifically validate the
theory that "'Aryans' had arrived fully-formed from 'heaven,' being preserved
in 'eternal ice' before stalking the earth with superhuman 'electrical
powers.'" The Nazis certainly had no dearth of inventive energy -- too bad
they didn't expend it on something constructive.

Jodi Berls
jberls@aol.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Apr 1995 to 6 Apr 1995
***********************************************

From <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:owner-WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Fri Apr  7 23:11:30 1995
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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 6 Apr 1995 to 7 Apr 1995
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: OR

There are 68 messages totalling 2339 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA:Ernie Pyle Excerpts
  2. WEAP: Ship Abbreviations (3)
  3. REF (3)
  4. Spam (5)
  5. WEAP: Naval Gunfire Support Useful? (2)
  6. Inf:  Ballad of a Soldier - video for sale (2)
  7. good books on the Pacific (2)
  8. WEAP: Attack Transports (2)
  9. BBs (fwd)
 10. Inf: ship designations
 11. Inf:  more on ship designations
 12. INF: USN Chronology 04-07-95
 13. <No subject given> (5)
 14. World War II Movies -Reply
 15. [INF] USAAF 7 APR 45
 16. [INF] USAAF 5 APR 45 (2)
 17. ok
 18. MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.2 (2)
 19. Re. "Ballad of a Soldier" & other Soviet films
 20. Russia enters the Pacific
 21. Help please
 22. Whitmann vs Pool (3)
 23. THUNDERBOLT (2)
 24. German declaration of war
 25. MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.3
 26. Letter C Designates
 27. INF: Letter "C" (Was: INF: More on ship designations)
 28. WEAP: Ship designations (3)
 29. Conference announcement
 30. MEDIA:Okinawa pt.4
 31. Rudolph Hess
 32. Condor Bomber - TV Bomb? (3)
 33. WWII CLIP ART
 34. Terry,
 35. Rommel request
 36. Panzer IV & Galland
 37. U Boats Offshore - Book question
 38. WEAP: Ship designations redux
 39. World War II Movies
 40. WWII Movies
 41. Being Rommel
 42. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-APR-1945
 43. Immigration to Palestine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:03:55 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <brady@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Ernie Pyle Excerpts

>Regarding Ernie Pyle - would his columns be covered by the copyright laws? I
>would love to take some of his old columns, type them up and post them out on
>my 50 YA home page. I know normal copyrights are for 25 years renewable. I
>wonder if he's were renewed (it would have had to be done twice).
>
>John
>

Copyrights run life of author plus 50 years. The grim coincidence of Ernie Pyle's death at the
end of WWII and this 50th anniversary of it is about to take place.

Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:39:26 -0500
From:    "Roddy R. Rupert" <rrupert@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship Abbreviations

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Dan Wilson wrote:

>      I suffer from newbieitis as well. The BB and DD are the mystifing
>      ones. Why the double letters? The V in CV is a little troubling as
>      well. Standing by for the heavyweights.
>

I believe these are correct:

        SS   Submersible Ship
        CV   Carrier Vessel
        CVE  Carrier Vessel, Escort



-------------------------------------------
Rod Rupert    rrupert@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us
Springfield, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:13:54 -0400
From:    Scott C Stathis <stathis@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF

>
>      This is my first posting on this list, so please bear with me.
> I am a college student planning on majoring in history.  I have a
> paper due on Rommel and would greatly appreciate anything anyone
> wold like to contribute.  If you would advise any books or impart
> any personal knowledge, it would be greatly appreciated.
>                                              Chris Bailey
>                                              La Grange College
>                                              La Grange, GA
>                               cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu
>
Hi
   Chris

     Two books that come immedaitly to mind are "The Rommel Papers"
which are notes left by Rommel and saved his family who later published
them in this book form and the New biography called "Knight's Cross" by
David Fraser. Also be on the look out for books about the Afrika Corps
since they always contain alot of info. about Rommel.

Hope this helps
Scott

Fellow History Student at Umass-Amherst

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:39:20 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam

Laugh at SPAM if you (guys) will, but it's astronomically
  high fat/cholesterol content helped keep a LOT of Soviet
  men, women, and children alive through their wartime
  winters.  As a survival food, it's hard to beat!

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:36:31 -0500
From:    "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Naval Gunfire Support Useful?

Some people here at Purdue have become enraptured over O'Connell's
"Sacred Vessels..." and have bought his drivel without giving it any
serious thought.  One item they've been harping on is the supposed
comletely lack of usefulness of naval gunfire support.  Now, I know
that at least two gentlemen that were in positions to observe the
results of 14" shells ariving at supersonic speeds on a target had
very pronounced opinions about the effectiveness of naval guns.
Both men, von Rundstedt and Rommel, thought that naval gunfire was
a major factor in the German defeat in Normandy. *However* the
gentlemen here at Purdue think that an Army intelligence officer
knows more about the subject than either feldmarschal. Apparently
O'Connel's in-depth (I'm joking) analysis of WWI gun-direction gear
has made him an expert on WWII gun-laying ("So wouldn't the coal-
smoke from the stacks make it damn hard to see the target, Adm. Halsey?)

So, if you've got some citations handy that would help me refute
a ground-pounders wise analysis of naval gunnery, I'd appreciate it
you'd send them to me.  I don't have the energy to plow through
stacks of books (and Purdue's libraries have exactly as much helpful
information on the Navy as you'd expect to find in the middle of
a cornfield in Indiana.)  I don't ask any great efforts from anyone,
but if you have what I need handy, I'd appreciate your help (you
guys at Annapolis got anything?)

TIA,
Larry J


LJEWELL@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Mod.: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:39:41 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Inf:  Ballad of a Soldier - video for sale

Just today I saw an ad for Ballad of a Soldier video.  It can be
purchased from The Scholoar's Bookshelf, 110 Melrich Road, Cranbury, NJ
08512.  They are a mail order catalog.  they do not do phone orders.The
video catalog number is 4H25A.  Price is $24.95 plus 4.50 shipping (NJ
residents add sales tax).  Credit card or check.  The film is from 1960,
B&W with English subtitles.

They also have quite a few other classic war movies, others may want to
get on their mailing list.  They have a regular catalog as well as one
that specializes in military history - get both.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Lou!
>
> > The most unforgettable foreign film I have seen is "The
> >   Ballad of the Soldier," about a young Soviet rifleman's
> >   anti-tank heroism and then rear-echelon adventures to
> >   get home on leave to see his mother.
>
>     I agree with this. Do you know if this can be found in video
> stores? I have seen this one only once, but I have never forgotten it.
>
>     Thanks again.
>
>     Terry
>
>  >
> > Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:40:46 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: good books on the Pacific

You wrote:

>
>>
>> Can anyone recommend any Good book(s) of English language which
>> provide a solid description of nav/air ops in the Pacific ?
>> There are plenty of good "general" books describing the overall
strategy, but
>> I am looking for those rare books which focuse on describing
operations, with
>fi
>> gures, unit names, Orders of Battles, and hard data.
>> I wonder if anyone attempted to give a comprehensive picture of Jap
and U.S. d
>ep
>> loyment at certain dates in the Pacific, with location of air assets
and impor
>ta
>> nt ships etc. If not, I would be interested by such a project.
>>
>> Arnaud.
>>
>
>   Two good books on the Pacific war are "At Dawn We Slept" and
"Miracle
>at Midway" both by Gordon Prange. Both books provide much hard data on
>these two battles including describtion of operations, figures and unit
>names.
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Scott
>
>Self-Proclaimed Midway fanitic.
>
>
John Lundstrom's The First Team and The First Team and the Guadalcanal
Campaign are excellent works which cover the air war in the Pacific up
through 1942.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:45:35 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

Also *Allied Landing Craft of World War Two*, also recently reprinted by
Naval Institute Press (originally came out in 1944 from Director of Naval
Intelligence).  May also be interested in *Andrew Jackson Higgins and the
Boats that Won World War II* by Jerry Strahan.  Louisiana State Univ.
Press (1994).  The Higgins boats were the LCVP (landing craft vehicle,
personnel).

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Larry Bond wrote:

> Wilber, there is an excellent new book, called D-Day Ships, by Yves
> Buffetaut, from the Naval Institute press. It describes in detail the
> development and purpose of the many varieties of amphibiopus ships that
> participated in the Normandy landings, as well as giving some excellent
> history on the landings itself. Photos and drawings are excellent, and it's
> well-written.
>
>       Larry Bond
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:48:20 -1000
From:    John DeVirgilio <devirgil@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: BBs (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 17:45:01 -1000 (HST)
From: John DeVirgilio <devirgil@uhunix3.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
To: Military History <MILHST-L@ukanvm.bitnet>
Cc: Multiple recipients of list MILHST-L <MILHST-L@ukanvm.bitnet>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: BBs on the Great Lakes.



On Sat, 1 Apr 1995, Terry Meier wrote:

>           >but what exactly does BB stand >for?
>
>           BB = Ballistic Bombardment
>
>
>           Terry Meier
>           meiert@smtp-gw.spawar.navy.mil
>


Terry,

Way back in the late 19th century, the USN decided to build large ocean
going warships constructed of steel.   The USN asked for designs based on
the British Battleship (BB) concept of the period.  The British Battleship
abbreviation BB became the blue print name(s) for the first American BB
designs.  Early American BB designs were circulated far and wide in navy
circles without the attached British Battleship root name.  The term BB was
thus born into American naval vocabulary.


Aloha,

John F. De Virgilio

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:55:27 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Inf: ship designations

>From the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, Vol IV.

BB - "Battleship" (ex BB, Battleship, First Line.  "Line" designations
were used with BBs 1912-16, at first arbitrarily (BB1 through 19, 2d
Line: BB-20 and over. 1st Line), then to distinguish "dreadnoughts" from
"predreadnoughts."  They were again used 1920-30 with battleships,
monitors, carriers, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, and minelayers.
Ships were reclassified from the "first line" to the secon on reaching a
specified age.

DD - Destroyer (ex-destroyer, First Line)

CV - Aircraft Carrier, First Line


****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Dan Wilson wrote:

>      Can we add an explanation for the designations like "BB", "DD", "CV"
>      and the like? This has mystified me for years and no one that I've
>      talked to can provide an answer (even ex Navy types).
>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> Subject: WEAP: Attack Transports
> Author:  _WWII-L (SMTP.WWIIL) at SSWGATE
> Date:    04/06/95 12:36 AM
>
>
> Ed Kettler was telling us a couple of days ago about Attack Transports (APAs),
> and whether they carried LCVPs or LCMs.
>
> Since I first read Kenneth Dodson's "Away All Boats!" somewhere around 25
> years ago, I've always wonderered what the initials in things like "LCVP",
> "LCM", "LST" , and so on, mean. Can anyone give details of these, and some
> information on the boats themselves.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Wilber
>
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Wilber WILLIAMS                           w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au       |
> |Prentice Centre                           Telephone : +61 7 365 4232    |
> |The University of Queensland              Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477    |
> |Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA              Pager : +61 7 831 6199 #20702 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:55:54 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Attack Transports

You wrote:

>
>Well, as a list newbie and an ex-sailor I'll put my foot out...
>
>BB = Battleship  (why "BB" and not "B", I don't know)
>DD = Destroyer   (same as above)
>DE = Destroyer, Escort
>CV = Carrier, Fixed Wing
>CVN = Carrier, Fixed Wing, Nuclear  (ok, not WWII)
>LCT = Landing Craft, Tank
>LST = Long Slow Target (ok, really Landing Ship, Tank)
>LCM = Landing Craft, Mechanized
>
>Just some off the top of my head.
>
> +-------------------------------+------------------------------+
> | *-=Carl=-* cdf1@psu.edu       | A sucking chest wound is     |
> |            Owner - ASL-L      | Nature's way of telling you  |
> | Carl Fago  State College, PA  | to slow down.                |
> +-------------------------------+------------------------------+
>
>
LCVP = Landing Craft, Vehicles and Personnel
LCA = Landing Craft, Assault
LCI(L) = Landing Craft, Infantry (Large)
LSM = Landing Ship, Medium
LSM(R) = Landing Ship, Medium (Rockets)

To add a few more to the list.
Ed
deradler@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:11:49 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Inf:  more on ship designations

Why BB?  In the beginning there were several "B"  classifications, such
as BM for Monitor, First Line; BMR for River Monitor; OBM for Monitor,
Second Line.  Thus BB was Battleship, First Line, later reduced to just
Battleship.  In 1955 when they thought they would missle arm some
battleships, they came up with BBG for Guided Missile Capital Ship.

CV - carriers were first grouped in the Cruisers category, reflecting the
contemporary concept of their mission as primarily that of
reconnaissance.  so at the time C was used as Cruiser, CA, Cruiser, First
Line (later Heavy Cruiser), and CB for large Cruiser and a hole bunch
more, so a letter that was not being used for the second letter had to be
picked (some times these are arbitrary - another example is the airplane
type PBY - P is for Patrol, B is for bomber, Y is for the manufactur
Consolidated - C had already been used by a different manufactur that
also began with C and I am embarassed to not be able to recall at the
moment).

DD, also Destroyer, First Line.  Seperates from the other destroyer
types.


****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:18:29 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam

Hey watch out on the Spam talk, it is a main food here in Hawaii! opps
off the topic, sorry - but they ate it here in WWII also.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Laugh at SPAM if you (guys) will, but it's astronomically
>   high fat/cholesterol content helped keep a LOT of Soviet
>   men, women, and children alive through their wartime
>   winters.  As a survival food, it's hard to beat!
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:31:42 +0200
From:    Cris Whetton <Cris.Whetton@VTT.FI>
Subject: Re: Spam

>Laugh at SPAM if you (guys) will, but it's astronomically
>  high fat/cholesterol content helped keep a LOT of Soviet
>  men, women, and children alive through their wartime
>  winters.  As a survival food, it's hard to beat!
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>
>
So did such delicacies as:

Snoek (a particularly disgusting fish)
Whale meat
Pom (dried potato)
Dried egg
'Coffee' made from roasted acorns/barley

Does anyone remember any others? Certainly we were still eating the stuff in
UK/France into the early fifties.
Cris

Cris Whetton, Ility Engineering Ltd
(As from VTT Manufacturing Technology, Safety Engineering Dept.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:02:52 +0000
From:    Arnaud Bouis <ab@CALLISTO.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: good books on the Pacific

Thanks Scott, Peter, for your insight.
What appears, though, is a lack of books offering what I am looking for, most boks being compelled to "zoom in" on Midway and Coral Sea and forgetting the rest, for space reasons. Very important air operations took place in the western and southern sectors which are covered almost nowhere. I might well order Van der Vat's book though.
Thanks for the input.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 04:00:14 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 04-07-95

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1945
04/07 Sat. Aircraft of fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M. A.Mitscher)
           attack Japanese naval force moving through East China Sea
           toward Okinawa; the enemy battleship YAMATO, 1 cruiser, and
           4 destroyers are sunk.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Motor gunboat PGM-l8, by mine, Okinawa area,
             26 d. 13'N., 127 d. 55'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Okinawa area:
             Aircraft carrier HANCOCK (CV-19), by suicide plane,
              27 d. 00'N., 130 d. 00'E.
             Battleship MARYLAND (BB-46), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 40'N., 127 d. 29'E.
             Destroyer LONGSHAW (DD-559), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 29'N., 127 d. 41'E.
             Destroyer escort WESSON (DE-184), by suicide plane,
              26 d. 48'N., 127 d. 55'E.
             Motor minesweeper YMS-81, by suicide plane,
              26 d. 35'N., 127 d. 53'E.
             Motor minesweeper YMS-103, by mine,
              26 d. 13'N., 127 d. 54'E.
             Motor minesweeper YMS-427, by coastal defense gun,
              26 d. 14'N., 127 52'E.
             Attack transport AUDRAIN (APA-59), accidentally by United
              States naval gunfire,
              26 d. 22'N., 127 d. 43'E.
             LST 698, by grounding,
              26 d. 24'N., 127 d. 45'E.
             LST 890, by collision,
              26 d. 20'N., 127 d. 45'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Battleship YAMATO, by carrier-based aircraft, East China
              Sea,
              30 40'N., 128 03'E.
             Light cruiser ISUZU, by submarines GABILAN (SS-252) and
              CHARR (SS-328), off Celebes, Netherlands East Indies,
              07 d. 38'S., 118 d. 09'E.
             Light cruiser YAHAGI, by carrier-based aircraft, East China
              Sea,
              30 d. 40'N., 128 d. 03'E.
             Destroyer ASASHIMO, by carrier-based aircraft, East China
              Sea,
              31 d. 00'N., 128 d. 00'E.
             Destroyer HAMAKAZE, by carrier-based aircraft, East China
              Sea,
              30 d. 40'N., 128 d. 03'E.
             Destroyer ISOKAZE, by carrier-based aircraft,
              East China Sea,
              30 d. 40'N., 128 d. 03'E.
             Destroyer KARUMI, by carrier-based aircraft,
              East China Sea,
              30 d. 57'N., 127 d. 57'E.
            German submarine sunk:
             U-857, by destroyer escort GUSTAFSON (DE-182), off Cape
              Cod, Mass.,
              42 d. 22'N., 69 d. 46'W.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: "Larry W. Jewell" <ljewell@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:02:08 +0000
From:    "IAN.D.LINDLEY" <9360934@LEWIS.SMS.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: <No subject given>

  Reply-to:    Christopher Dale Bailey <cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu>

>      I was researching the topic of Rommel in the library the other
> day, and came across an intteresting article from National Review
> magizine dated March 1, 1993.
>      The article states that the balance of the entire war was
> changed on December 11, 1941.  The article goes on to state that
> Hitler did not have to declare war on the U.S., His treaty signed
> with Japan only obligated him to go to war with Japan if they were
> attacked by the United States.  This poses a question for me:
>
>      1.  Suppose Hitler had declared neutrality in the Pacific.
> Suppose he had gone before the Reichstang and declared that he had
> no quarrel with the United States.  I wonder if FDR would have
> dared asked for a declaration of war in the face of such generous
> German sentiments????????????????????????

     I has always heard and assumed that he wouldn't.   As I
remember, even the dim Von Ribbentrop begged Hitler not to act rashly,
but he decided, in an attack of Wagnerian Apocalypse Syndrome, no
doubt, to declare war.  As I understood it, this was just a welcome
bonus for FDR and Churchill.  Of course, the US navy was already
essentially carrying out escort duty for Europe-bound convoys by
then; and as I recall, FDR had made a lot of propaganda out of some
engagements between American destroyers and U-boats.  So I wonder how
long it would have taken for an excuse to have been found for war?
     On the other hand, if we're going to be counter-factual; the
disasters pre-Coral Sea might have had an interesting effect on the
structure of the European alliance that emerged to 'unify' the Big
Three (or Four) over Europe.  Without the explicit commitment to
Europe, might the Japanese have been able to write off the war after
six months of victory, leaving everyone in a very precarious
position?
                                                      Ian Lindley
                                                      Edinburgh University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: World War II Movies -Reply

 >        Another great movie not mentioned, The 49th Parallel.  I think
 >Laurence Olivier was in it.  It was about German U-Boat sailors making
 >their way through Canada prior to U.S. entry into the war.
 >
 >Patrick Charles
 >pchuck@u.washington.edu

Yes, and if memory serves me correctly (which it doesn't often do
anymore), there is a fantastic scene for aiplane nuts.  In 1940,
the USAAF sold/gave the RCAF 12 to 18 Douglas B-18s which our
Canadian neighbors called the Douglas Digby.  They equipped one
RCAF bomber reconnaissance squadron in Nova Scotia and were used
until 1943 (??) for ASW work.  There is a scene in the film of one
of these aircraft flying around, a scene you do not see very often.
Just like the film AIR FORCE where, if you look very closely, there
is a P-43, the predecessor of the P-47, flying around.

Anyway, back to this film.  The 49th PARALLEL was a British-made
film released in 1941 starring Anton Walbrook, Eric Protman, Leslie
Howard, Raymond Massey, Laurence Olivier, Glynis Johns, Niall
MacGinnis and Finlay Currie.  Malton gives it 3.5 stars out of a
possible 4 and says, "Taut, exciting WW2 yarn of Nazi servicemen
whose U-boat is sunk off the Canadian coast.  Top-notch cast, rich
suspense and characterizations.  Oscar for Best Story.  The film
was also released in the U.S. with the title THE INVADERS.  The
original running time was 123 minutes but this has been cut to 107
minutes (any probably more to get additional advertisements in!).
At one time or another the film was available on both laserdisc and
videocassette.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:33:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 APR 45

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 7 APRIL 1945
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow
  P-70, Douglas

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A B-24 flies a radar-ferret mission along the
coasts of Paramushiru and Harumukotan Islands in the Kurile Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 14 B-25s hit town areas and
targets of opportunity at Sichuan, Hsihhsiassuchi, Neihsiang, Shaoyang, and
Nanchang and 24 P-51s attack river, road and rail traffic in the Yellow River
area, S of Anyi, at Yuncheng, and at Tengfeng. 4 B-24s bomb harbors and dock
areas at Bakli and Samah Bays on Hainan Island and at Haiphong, French
Indochina; and 8 P-38s hit targets of opportunity around Dien Bien Phu and
along the Nam Hon area in French Indochina.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): 95 fighter bombers operating over
and behind Japanese lines in C Burma pound troop concentrations, trucks, and
supply areas, and sweep roads S of bomb line. The 3d Combat Cargo Squadron,
1st Combat Cargo Group, moves from Tulihal to Hathazari, India with C-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 931: 1,314 bombers and 898
fighters are dispatched to hit airfields, oil and munitions depots and
explosive plants in C and N Germany; all primary targets are bombed visually;
they meet 100+ conventional fighters and 50+ jets; the German fighters attack
fiercely and in the ensuing air battle down 15 heavy bombers; the AAF claims
104-13-32 aircraft including a few jets:
  1. 529 B-17s are sent to hit airfields at Kaltenkirchen (143) and Parchim
(134), an oil depot at Buchen (36) and a munitions depot at Gustrow (104);
secondary targets hit are the marshalling yards at Neumunster (37) and
Schwerin (48); 1 other hit Salzwedel Airfield, a target of opportunity; they
claim 26-10-10 aircraft; 14 B-17s are lost and 117 damaged; 1 airman is KIA,
5 WIA and 117 MIA. Escorting are 317 of 338 P-51s; they claim 31-1-8
aircraft; 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 340 B-24s are dispatched to hit explosive plants at Krummel (128) and
Duneburg (168); 26 others hit the marshalling yard at Neumunster; they claim
14-2-6 aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 44 damaged; 6
airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 25 MIA. The escort is 252 P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 30-0-7 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond
repair.
  3. 442 B-17s are sent to attack airfields at Wesendorf (107) and
Kohlenbissen (93) and an oil depot at Hitzacker (115); 92 hit Lundeburg, the
secondary; targets of opportunity are Fassberg Airfield (12) and the
marshalling yard at Uelzen (13); they claim 0-0-1 aircraft; 27 B-17s are
damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 3 WIA. 209 of 222 P-51s escort without loss.
  4. 3 of 4 B-17s and 29 P-51s fly scouting missions.
  5. 23 of 25 P-51s escort 12 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over
Germany.
  The 374th and 376th Fighter Squadrons, 361st Fighter Group, move from
Chievres, Belgium to Little Walden, England with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS
    First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves from France to
Germany: HQ 63d Fighter Wing from Vittel to Heidelberg; HQ 371st Fighter
Group and 404th Fighter Squadron from Metz to Eschborn Airfield, Frankfurt
with P-47s; 365th Fighter Squadron, 358th Fighter Group from Toul to
Sandhofen with P-47s.
    Ninth Air Force: In Germany, 268 A-20s, A-26s and B-26s strike
marshalling yards at Northeim and Gottingen, plus 2 town areas; fighters fly
escort, patrols, and armed reconnaissance, and support the US 7th Armored
Division at Schmallenberg, the 3d and 9th Armored Divisions along the Weser
River E of Warburg, the VIII, XII, and XX Corps in the Muhlhausen, Eisenach,
and Meiningen areas (including strong air support against a counterattack on
the XII and XX Corps at Struth), the 2d Armored Division along the Sarstedt-
Hildesheim road, and the XVI Corps between the Lippe and Ruhr Rivers in the
Essen area. The 353d Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, moves from
Rosieres-en-Haye, France to Ober Olm, Germany with P-51s;

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 128 B-17s and B-24s attack the
Mezzocorona railroad bridge and nearby road bridge, and the Verona-Parona di
VaIpolicella railroad bridge in Italy, and marshalling yards at Innsbruck,
Sankt Veit an der Glan, and Klagenfurt, Austria; 500+ bombers return to base
without bombing because of multi-layer clouds; 82 P-38s bomb the Tainach-
Stein railroad bridge in Austria; 74 others sent against a bridge in S
Austria abort due to weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, during the night of 6/7
Apr, A-20s and A-26s bomb bridges at Lavis, Ala, Rovereto, and San Ambrogio
di VaIpolicella, and several Po River crossings; during the day weather
grounds the medium bombers; XXII Tactical Air Command fighters and fighter
bombers, operating on a limited scale, hit the Montechino oilfield,
ammunition dumps and communications targets N of the battle area, and gun
positions in the Monte Belvedere-Strettoia area in which US Fifth Army forces
push N. Units moving from Corsica to Italy: HQ 57th Bombardment Wing and HQ
310th Bombardment Group (Medium) with the 380th, 381st and 428th Bombardment
Squadrons (Medium) from Ghisonaccia to Fano with B-25s; the 486th, 487th and
488th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium), from
Alesan to Rimini with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA
    Seventh Air Force: 24 B-24s from Angaur Island bomb the barracks area at
Bunawan on Mindanao Island.
    VII Fighter Command: Mission 1: 91 of 108 P-51s escort B-29s to Tokyo;
they claim 21-5-7 Japanese aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
    Mission 58: 101 of 107 B-29s bomb the Nakajima aircraft engine plant at
Tokyo; 2 others hit targets of opportunity; they claim 80-23-50 Japanese
aircraft; 3 B-29s are lost.
    Mission 59: 153 of 194 B-29s hit the Mitsubishi aircraft plant at Nagoya;
29 others hit targets of opportunity; they claim 21-11-22 Japanese aircraft;
2 B-29s are lost.
    HQ 444th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy) arrives at West Field, Tinian
Island from India.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Bad weather hampers
strikes N of the Philippines. B-24s and P-38s over Formosa hit various
targets of opportunity. On Luzon Island, fighters fly 130+ sorties in support
of ground forces at Solvec Cove, Villa Verde Trail, the Ipo and Marikina
Rivers, and NE Laguna de Bay. B-24s again bomb Bunawan on Mindanao Island.
Other B-24s and P-38s hit Jolo Island and B-24s bomb Bima Airfield on Sumbawa
Island in the Lesser Sunda Islands. Unit moves: 311th Fighter Squadron, 58th
Fighter Group, from San Jose, Mindoro Island to Mangaldan, Luzon with P-47s;
550th Night Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command (attached to 85th Fighter
Wing), from Morotai Island, Moluccas Islands to Tacloban, Leyte Island,
Philippine Islands with P-38s, P-61s and P-70s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2
WORLD WAR II IN THE NORTH PACIFIC by Kevin D. Hutchinson, 1994,
  ISBN-0-313-29130-6

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

07/1131Z APR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:45:09 -0400
From:    Mike Brannaman <MBrannaman@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 5 APR 45

> STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are >flown. Mission
928: 1,358 bombers and 662 fighters attack >marshalling yards, ordnance
depots, armament works and airfields >in Germany; they claim 8-0-6 aircraft;
10 bombers and 1 P-51 are >lost:

What does the "8-0-6 aircraft" designation mean? Hits, Runs, Errors?
TIA, Mike

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:08:49 -0400
From:    Kevin Serafini <serafik@H01.PGH.WEC.COM>
Subject: ok

ok 7C9BD5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Kevin Serafini                     | e-mail:                                 |
| Westinghouse Electric Corporation  |   serafik@h01.pgh.wec.com               |
| Software Technology & Development  | s-mail:                                 |
| (412) 374-5041                     |   P.O. Box 355                          |
|  WIN  284-5041                     |   Pittsburgh, PA 15230                  |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "All animals are created equal, although some are more equal than others."   |
|    - George Orwell, Animal Farm                                              |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:49:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 5 APR 45

 >> STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are >flown. Mission
 >928: 1,358 bombers and 662 fighters attack >marshalling yards, ordnance
 >depots, armament works and airfields >in Germany; they claim 8-0-6 aircraft;
 >10 bombers and 1 P-51 are >lost:
 >
 >What does the "8-0-6 aircraft" designation mean? Hits, Runs, Errors?
 >TIA, Mike

The air war was not a game!  People were being killed everyday.

The three numbers mean:

1st number = aircraft claimed destroyed.
2nd number = aircraft claimed probably destroyed.
3rd number = aircraft claimed damaged.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:52:23 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.2

>        The Laffey remained in almost continuous combat for an hour and
>20 minutes, an unheard-of length of time.  Besides the five planes
>that crashed into it, there were two that dropped bombs on it.  On
>its own, it-managed to down nine of the 22 attackers.  Thirty-two
>men aboard ship were dead and 71 were wounded.  The ship couldn't
>be steered, and had to be towed into port.
>        But it was still afloat.  Fifty years later, it remains a
>famous ship of Okinawa, now a museum piece in dry dock at
>Charleston SC.  For his role in saving it, Becton won the Navy
>Cross in recognition of "extraordinary heroism."
>

I remember reading a article on the U.S.S. Laffey, that while being towed
back to to drydock, a sailor had painted on the side of the Laffey:


                       "  <-------   Fleet "

to assist any more Kamikaze that happened to stray across their path.  Can
anyone else confirm this story.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

Fax: 607-254-6404
http://ir-www.cit.cornell.edu/IR_staff/ron_babuka.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:24:50 -0400
From:    Andreas Tamberg <ANDREAS@WPO.JHPIEGO.ORG>
Subject: Re. "Ballad of a Soldier" & other Soviet films

"Ballad of a Soldier" (Ballada o soldate) is available through Sverdlov
Video in NYC:  718/891-3048.  Make sure they have a copy with
subtitles!

For those interested, the Sovs released a multi-part "epic" entitled
"Liberation" (Osvobozhdeniie) covering the entire Great Patriotic.
Released towards the end of the Brezhnev period (if memory serves, for
the 40th anniversary of Barbarossa), the film was dedicated to the
CPSU, so be forwarned.  However the film is grandiose  in scale -- many
extras & military equipment, faithfully rendered.  No Shermans painted
with German crosses in this picture.  Its as though the Russians
collected all of their (and the Germans') left-over vehicles from WWII,
threw in the entire Yugoslav army and filmed it all.  The scenes of T-34s
and Panthers flying through the air at Kursk and the night assault
crossing of the Dnepr are worth sitting (or fast-forwarding!) through the
obligatory socialist morality tales.

Another interesting point is that the Russians die in droves in this picture.
 No (early) Clint Eastwood heroics.

Andreas Tamberg

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:23:44 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship Abbreviations

In message <9504070725.AA12092@umnstat.stat.umn.edu> World War II Discussion
List writes:
> On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Dan Wilson wrote:
>
> >      I suffer from newbieitis as well. The BB and DD are the mystifing
> >      ones. Why the double letters? The V in CV is a little troubling as
> >      well. Standing by for the heavyweights.
> >
>
> I believe these are correct:
>
>         SS   Submersible Ship
>         CV   Carrier Vessel
>         CVE  Carrier Vessel, Escort

The V in the CV's stands for "Heavier Than Air" (indicating the type of
aircraft it carried).

Wish I knew the history of how all these letters were selected.  They go
WAYYYY back.


--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:39:47 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF

Hello, Chris!

The study of Rommel is a broad topic. Any idea as to the nature of
your discussion?

Terry

>      This is my first posting on this list, so please bear with me.
> I am a college student planning on majoring in history.  I have a
> paper due on Rommel and would greatly appreciate anything anyone
> wold like to contribute.  If you would advise any books or impart
> any personal knowledge, it would be greatly appreciated.
>                                              Chris Bailey
>                                              La Grange College
>                                              La Grange, GA
>                               cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:32:59 -0400
From:    Andreas Tamberg <ANDREAS@WPO.JHPIEGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Russia enters the Pacific

I would be very much interested in some information on the Kwantung
Army, particularly changes in divisional TO&Es between 1936 and 1945.
Was the army defeated at Khalkin-Gol stronger in 1941?  My
understanding is that that the Japanase did not have anti-tank weapons
capable of defeating Soviet KVs and (by-and large) even T-34s.  Is this
so?

Andreas Tamberg

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:32:22 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam

I will see if I can find the cartoon and scan it in. -Drew


Drew Philip Halevy    |
Grad Student          |         Is it tomorrow,
Department of History |         or just the end of time?
University of Arkansas|         -J.H.
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU |




On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, H. Emery Ford wrote:

> Drew,
>
> Drew,
>
> Could you possibly do a Spamscan?
>
> er, could you possibly make that a gif or jpeg?
>
> I, for one, would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Emery
>
> On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Drew Halevy wrote:
>
> > There is a famous Sadsack cartoon of Sadsack being served spam (with the
> > sound of it being placed on the tray  as "SPAM!") and he gets a package
> > from home, and inside is a shipment of Spam from Mom!-Drew
> >
> >
> > Drew Philip Halevy    |
> > Grad Student          |         Is it tomorrow,
> > Department of History |         or just the end of time?
> > University of Arkansas|         -J.H.
> > DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU |
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:52:31 +0100
From:    Jean McKendree <jm25@UNIX.YORK.AC.UK>
Subject: Help please

I hope you will excuse my posting if this is not an appropriate place.  I am
looking for some help.  My father has published a book which might be of
interest to people on this list.  It is a collection of poems written by
American POWs in Japanese prison camp during WW II.  The press which is putting
it out is quite small and does not do any publicity, so I was hoping that you
might either post this to your members or give me some advice about an
appropriate place to send the information.

There is a short page about the book on the Web at:

http://www.york.ac.uk/~jm25/book.html

The publisher is

"Barbed Wire and Rice: Poems from Japanese prison camp"
Cornell East Asia Program
140 Uris Hall
Ithaca, NY  14853-7601

Thanks very much - Jean McKendree



========================================================================
Dr Jean McKendree                      Tel: (0904)433154
Department of Psychology               Fax: (0904)433181
University of York                     JM25@york.ac.uk
York  YO1 5DD                          WWW: http://www.york.ac.uk/~jm25/
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:16:12 +0200
From:    Robert Martensson <Robert.Martensson@NEXUS.SE>
Subject: Re: Whitmann vs Pool

Terry answers Matthew (whose post I haven't seen)

>Hello, Matthew!
>
>Thanks for the post. I wasn't aware of Mr. Pool. Even so, Wittmann
>destroyed 138 tanks plus many many other vehicles. In your post about
>Mr. Pool you mention only vehicles. Any idea how many tanks he
>destroyed?
>
>Thanks again.
>
>Terry

A sidenote regarding those numbers. According to a friend of me, the
post combat analysis done after the breakout from Normandy, regarding
the german counterattack against the US breakthrough and the sub-
sequent Falaise-pocket, showed a rather shocking lack of correlation
between the number of claimed kills (tanks, APC:s lorries etc) by the
airforce, and the number of destroyed vehicles found in the area. I
do not remember the figures but it was something like:

                claimed kills           "real kills"
Tanks:          several dozen              6 or 9
lorries:        several hundreds        a few dozen

The claimed kill number was not the number claimed directly by the
pilots, but the number of "confirmed kills" (after checking with the
film recording i guess).

Can anybody confirm those figures (and perhaps give the exact numbers)
or are they bogus somehow. What might be the reason for the lack of
correlation and what are the implications for the discussion about
best tank killing pilot...

        Yours

        Robert Maartensson
        robert@nexus.se

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:19:30 -0700
From:    Larry Godek <w0ogh@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: THUNDERBOLT

You wrote:

>As an added note here, the P-47 Thunderbolt Pilots Association is
having a reunion May 24-29, 1995 at the Excelsior Hotel in Little Rock,
Arkansas.  I have two (2) contact numbers if there is anyone interested.

Larry Godek
W0OGH@ix.netcom.com



>Dear Mr. Fetters,
>
>   I've tried e-mailing you direct using NASEM015@SIVM.SI.EDU and
>NASEMO15@SIVM.SI.EDU and have been turfed into the binary ether twice.
>Members of the WWII-LIST .... my apologies.
>   Thanks for your response to my posting. I would very much appreciate
any
>names and addresses of P-47 pilots, mechanics, armorers, 1st,2nd,3rd,
or 4th
>ground echelon personnel. The mechanical and technical side of these
machines
>are well covered.      The opportunity to capture the human side is
slipping
>away.
>     I look forward to hearing from you.
>     Thanks again.
>
>Paul C. Perkins, M.D.
>PERK1518@aol.com
>1518 State Route 343
>Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387
>Paul C. Perkins, M.D.
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:26:09 -0400
From:    Christopher Dale Bailey <cbailey@MENTOR.LGC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Terry,


     The paper is at least 12 pages, and is mainly a biographical
piece.  I must also participate in the classroom, acting as Rommel,
giving insight as to how he would act.  So anything that could be
helpful in that respect would be greatly appreciated.
_________________________________________________________________Chris Bailey                                      LaGrange College
cbailey@mentor.lgc.peachnet.edu                   Lagrange, GA
_________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:43:50 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: German declaration of war

Ian.D.Lindley <9360934@LEWIS.SMS.ED.AC.UK> writes:
>      I has always heard and assumed that he wouldn't.   As I
> remember, even the dim Von Ribbentrop begged Hitler not to act rashly,

        According to Dr. Gerhard Weinberg, Ribbentrop (without the
"Von" affectation!) explained that "a great power does not allow
itself to be declared war upon; it declares war on others."
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Mulligan!?  On time and on target!?  Cripes!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:45:56 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.3

In reply to the mail from <>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Continuing with the Philadelphia Inquirer article:
>
>
>       The planes that the Laffey didn't get, the CAP did.  The acronym
>stood for _combat air patrol_.  It was a job for Second Lt. Bill
>Drake and the three dozen other pilots of VMF 323 aka Death Rattlers.
>       Drake's friends knew him as "Duck."  He had been a freshman at
>Dartmouth College when the war broke out.  His father was a colonel
>in the Army Quartermaster Corps, "but I always wanted to fly."  So
>he took naval cadet training after which he had a choice: Navy or
>Marines.  He chose Marines.
>       It wasn't until June 1944 that his squadron reached the Pacific.
>The battle for Saipan was wrapping up at that time, and Peleliu lay
>just ahead.  But the squadron still hadn't seen combat months later
>when Okinawa came along.  It was the pilots' first test in combat.
>       They passed; that's for sure.  Twelve pilots, Drake included,
>would end up as "aces" - a recognition that they had shot down five
>or more enemy aircraft.
>       They flew the Corsair, the fastest plane in the Pacific.  It
>could not twist and turn like its principal foe, the Japanese Zero,
>but it could outrun the "Zekes" by going 450 miles per hour.  The
>ungainly looking Corsair had a gull wing and one giant propeller,
>stuck on a nose that resembled a basement water heater.
>       "A great airplane," Drake said at his Brookside home, near
>Morristown NJ.
>       The Marine pilots performed two jobs at Okinawa.  One was to
>provide close air support for Marines fighting on the ground.  The
>other was to help protect the fleet from kamikaze attack.  Their
>base was at Kadena, an airfield on Okinawa captured from the Japanese.
>       A contingent of Marines, pinned down somewhere, would radio for
>an airstrike.  Drake and his buddies would fly over and drop bombs
>or canisters of napalm on Japanese positions.  Though napalm would
>be more associated with the Vietnam War a generation later, it was
>widely used late in World War II.  Drake remembered it as "jellied
>gasoline - nasty stuff."
>       Close air support was important work.  But aerial combat was
>much more glamorous.
>       Drake shot down his first plane on May 4.  "That first one - I
>was almost more proud of that than the five I shot down later....
>It was really a dogfight.  Hundreds and hundreds of planes, and they
>were attacking the fleet."
>       The day he became an ace arrived a month later, June 3.  That
>morning, he and three other pilots led by Lt. Cyril A. Dolezel had
>been in the air for about an hour, watching over the fleet.  The
>destroyers on the picket line picked up radar blips indicating
>that a swarm of planes was headed their way from the direction of
>Japan.  Drake and his buddies were alerted to intercept them.
>       They flew right to the spot where the destroyers had said they
>would find the Japanese planes, but none were in sight.  Drake
>remembered hearing a panicky voice from the ships: "You're gonna
>pass 'em.  You're gonna pass 'em."
>       He looked up, he said, and saw a thin layer of clouds.  "As
>we broke through the clouds, there they were - 24 of them, all
>Zekes, all very modern.  We were in their blind spot, so we had
time to get up and get behind them.  We got behind them and started
taking potshots at them.  The first two I got were like shooting
fish in a barrel."
        The battle started at 18,000 feet and wound round and round,
down and down.  Besides flying skill, the Marines had two advantages
to make up for the 24-to-4 odds.  The first was speed - "If I got
one on my tail, I'd dive away from him," Drake said - and the
second was armor-plating.  The Americans had two inches of steel
behind their seats; the Japanese had only a volatile fuel tank
behind theirs.
        Drake's Corsair had a bubble canopy.  He constantly had to
look up and around for the enemy planes.  The Corsairs were
painted navy blue; the Zeroes, brown.
        His gun trigger was on the stick that controlled the direction
the airplane was headed.  A pull of his right index finger
unleashed six 50-caliber machine guns mounted three-and-three on
the wings, a massive amount of firepower.
        His left hand was on the throttle, which controlled speed, while
his feet operated the tail rudder, right and left.
        Pilots normally flew in pairs, one man protecting the other.
But in a dogfight, Drake said, "it's every man for himself....The
reason I shot so many down is I picked on the poor pilots and ran
away from the good pilots."
        Each American plane had wing cameras, which followed the action.
The officers who later studied the film credited Drake with four
"kills" and one "probable" that day.
        He, too, won the Navy Cross for heroism.  But the battle ended
on a note of embarrassment.  He found himself 200 feet over the
water and totally lost.
        "I picked up the radio and said, 'Mayday! I'm lost.'  All of a
sudden, I saw this plane behind me.  I thought it was a Jap for a
second, but it was a P-47.  The poor bastard had to take me home."


To be continued....


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:04:49 CDT
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Letter C Designates

C as in Cessna Aircraft Co. Inc as well as Culver Aircraft Corp.
according to my vintage Janes.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:49:14 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: INF: Letter "C" (Was: INF: More on ship designations)

> so a letter that was not being used for the second letter had to be
> picked (some times these are arbitrary - another example is the airplane
> type PBY - P is for Patrol, B is for bomber, Y is for the manufactur
> Consolidated - C had already been used by a different manufactur that
> also began with C and I am embarassed to not be able to recall at the
> moment).

"C" was assigned to Curtiss, so, Consolidated received "Y".
Another arbitrary examples are "F" for Grumman, "V" for Lockheed,
"A" for Brewster ("B" was already assigned to Boeing"), etc.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:56:42 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship designations

> I believe these are correct:
>
>         SS   Submersible Ship
>         CV   Carrier Vessel
>         CVE  Carrier Vessel, Escort

The "V" in the Aircraft Carrier designations comes from "Fixed Wing",
rather than "Vessel". I really don't know how was the "V" originated,
but the Navy likes very much to use it to indicate "Fixed Wing" :-)

Just remember how are designated the Fixed Wing squadrons
(VF, VA, VAW, VAQ, VS, VC, etc), while the helicopter squadrons
are designated with "H" (more logical, of course....)

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:11:20 -0400
From:    Mike Bechthold <mbechtho@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Conference announcement

The Laurier Centre for Military Strategic and Disarmament Studies
presents

The Sixth Military History Colloquium

*The End of the Second World War*

Friday, April 21 and
Saturday April 22, 1995

Paul Martin Centre
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Cost: $35 (includes Friday night banquet and Saturday lunch)


For further information contact:
Mike Bechthold
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University, Waterloo, ON
Tel: (519) 884-1970 ext.2594
Fax: (519) 746-7908
Email: mbechtho@mach1.wlu.ca


Conference Program:

Friday, April 21

12:30 p.m.  Coffee and Registration

1:30 p.m.  Opening Remarks

1:30 p.m.  Session One

Dean Oliver, York University
"Troubled Transition?  Morale, Leadership and Canadian Army
Demobilization, 1945-46."

David A. Wilson, University of New Brunswick
"Reflections on Conscription 1944-45."

Ken Anderson, University of Western Ontario
"The Reunification of the Canadian Army, 1945."


3:30 p.m.  Session Two

Hector MacKenzie, Department of Foreign Affairs and International
Trade
""Justice" Denied:  Perspectives on the Anglo-American Loan
Negotiations of 1945."

Michael D. Stevenson, University of Western Ontario
""Theirs But to Survey or Die":  The Industrial Mobilization
Survey Plan and the Military Mobilization of Non-Essential
Canadian Workers, 1943-45."


6:30 p.m.  Banquet - Blue Moon Hotel, Petersburg.
Keynote Speaker
Marc Milner  University of New Brunswick



Saturday, April 22


8:30 a.m.  Coffee

9:00 a.m.  Session Three

Roger Sarty, Directorate of History
"The Ghosts of Fisher and Jellicoe:  The Royal Canadian Navy and
the Quebec Conference."

Bill Rawling, Directorate of History
"Democracy, the RCN, and the Pacific War."

10:30 a.m.  Session Four

Galen Perras, National Defence Headquarters
""We have opened the door to Tokyo":  American Plans to Seize the
Kirule Islands, 1943-45."

Lee Windsor, Wilfrid Laurier University
""Boforce":  1st Canadian Infantry Division Operations in Support
of the Salerno Bridgehead, Italy, 1943."

12:00 p.m.  Lunch

1:00 p.m.  Session Five

Geoff Hayes, University of Waterloo
""Danku":  The Canadian Liberation of West Brabant, 1944."

Dan Byers, McGill University
"Operation "Canada":  The Canadian Attack on Delfzijl, April 23
to May 2, 1945."

2:30 p.m.  Session Six

Carl Christie, Directorate of History
"Atlantic Bridge:  Canadian Contributions to Royal Air Force
Ferry Command during the Second World War."

Tim Dub=82, Military Archivist, Manuscript Division,
National Archives of Canada
"Canada at War:  The Acquisition Policy of World War II Records."
=1A

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:24:20 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: THUNDERBOLT

You wrote:

>
>Dear Mr. Fetters,
>
>   I've tried e-mailing you direct using NASEM015@SIVM.SI.EDU and
>NASEMO15@SIVM.SI.EDU and have been turfed into the binary ether twice.
>Members of the WWII-LIST .... my apologies.
>   Thanks for your response to my posting. I would very much appreciate
any
>names and addresses of P-47 pilots, mechanics, armorers, 1st,2nd,3rd,
or 4th
>ground echelon personnel. The mechanical and technical side of these
machines
>are well covered.      The opportunity to capture the human side is
slipping
>away.
>     I look forward to hearing from you.
>     Thanks again.
>
>Paul C. Perkins, M.D.
>PERK1518@aol.com
>1518 State Route 343
>Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387
>Paul C. Perkins, M.D.
>
Paul,

I saw a reference to a P-47 Pilots Renunion in Arkansas in one of my
aviation magazines.  If you need the information, please reply and when
I'm home I'll pass the info to you.

Ed

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:33:25 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship Abbreviations

Robert J. Granvin wrote:

> The V in the CV's stands for "Heavier Than Air" (indicating the type of
> aircraft it carried).

Yes, this is correct for WWII, but later, when helicopters entered
service, the "V" became "Fixed Wing", while "H" was assigned to
indicate "Rotary Wing".

Even now, "H" is used for V/STOL aircraft carriers. Namely, the
Iwo Jima class (LPH), Tarawa class (LHA) and Wasp class (LHD).
In these cases, V/STOL aircraft includes both helicopters and
V/STOL airplanes (Harrier).

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:17:03 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:Okinawa pt.4

Here goes with the final installment of the Philadelphia
Inquirer article on Okinawa.  Hope it was enjoyable!

I apologize if I've taken up too much of your time, but I found
the article extremely interesting.


        Ashore, all this time, one of the most ferocious land battles of
the Second World War was taking place.
        The air-sea battle was awesome, with nearly 5,000 Americans killed.
But the toll on land was even greater.  About 7,000 soldiers and
Marines were killed, including the 10th Army commander, Lt.Gen.
Simon Bolivar Buckner.  At least 70,000 Japanese died, along with
80,000 native Okinawans.
        "It was a bloody affair," said historian Ronald Spector, author
of _Eagle Against the Sun_, a well-regarded account of the Pacific War.
In all, Okinawa cost the United States close to 32,000 casualties,
including dead and wounded.
        Yet Okinawa's fame has been eclipsed by Iwo Jima's.  "I don't
know why," Spector said in an interview.  Iwo Jima, he said, was a
smaller battle in most respects.
        The island of Okinawa itself is many times bigger: 60 miles long
and 18 miles wide.  The Japanese knew they couldn't defend all of the
shoreline there, so they withdrew to defensive positions and waited
for the Americans to advance.
        The job of blasting them out of their bunkers, trenches and caves
fell to units such as the Army's 77th Infantry Division, which
included a young medic who already had proven his bravery on Guam and
Leyte: Pvt. Doss.
        Doss had grown up in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, whose members
worship on Saturdays.  At his home, then in Lynchburg VA, his father
had hung a framed scroll of the Ten Commandments on the wall that
depicted the biblical Cain murdering his brother, Abel.
        "I looked at that picture hundreds of times.  And I always
wondered, 'How could his brother do such a horrible thing?'  I reckon
it put a horror in my heart for killing."
        But he figured that being a medic meant he would be saving lives,
not taking them.  And that seemed OK.
        "We were front-line doctors," he said from his sofa.  "We had to
go out ahead of our own lines to try to save life.  And you exposed
yourself to a lot of fire."
        Hanging behind him, as he talked, was the same framed scroll of the
Commandments he remembered from his youth.  His house today sits on
the piney crest of Lookout Mountain ridge, not far from the Tennessee
line and the city of Chattanooga.  Out back is a small pond.  The
American flag and Georgia flag hang by the door.
        At Okinawa, he said, his outfit was given orders to assault the
Maeda Escarpment.  That was a jagged hill-top, one side of which
dropped away in a sheer cliff.  From there, the dug-in Japanese
could direct artillery fire for miles in all directions.
        His company decided to climb up behind the enemy.  They would
scale the cliff with ropes and ladders.
        "We went up and pushed over against the Japanese position, got
pinned down and couldn't move," Doss recalled.  Another company was
supposed to take the opposite side of the escarpment, but word came
that they had been "all shot up," he said.
        "We had to take the whole thing by ourselves.  How'd you like to
be pinned down, where you couldn't move, and get an order like that?
But Uncle Sam has to sacrifice lives.  This was holding up the works."
        The battle started on April 29.  It was May 5 when Doss performed
the principal deeds that resulted in his winning the Medal of Honor, the
nation's highest award for heroism.  President Harry S Truman himnself
would place the medal around his neck on the White House lawn in
October 1945.
        "We had orders to withdraw," Doss said, "but I couldn't leave my
men.  In combat, you get very closely attached to each other.  When
you see you buddy hit, you just can't leave him out there.  It's like
a mother with a house on fire.  She don't think of herself; she's
thinking about that child.  And that's the way I felt about my men."
        Exposing himself to mortars, grenades and machine guns, he
crawled out into the open and dragged the wounded back to cover.  The
Army at first said he had rescued a hundred.  "I didn't see how it
could be more than 50, and I still don't.  So they settled on 75."
        "I didn't think I'd get killed.  But I felt it would be worth
getting wounded if I could save just one more man.  I kept praying
for the Lord to help me, and He did."
        Doss himself believes that what he did wasn't humanly possible.
        "It's not what I did, but what the Lord did.  To me, it was as
much a miracle as what I read about in the Bible."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:41:35 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Okinawa Pt.2

        To Ron Babuka:

        I don't recall the LAFFEY necessarily being the ship in question, but
Spector (in "Eagle Against the Sun") and, I believe, Morison in v. 14, "Victory
in the Pacific," mention sailors on some of the destroyers on the screen, sick
of being targeted, posting such arrows with messages reading "This Way To The
Carriers" or something similar.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:41:02 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Naval Gunfire Support Useful?

You wrote:

>
>Some people here at Purdue have become enraptured over O'Connell's
>"Sacred Vessels..." and have bought his drivel without giving it any
>serious thought.  One item they've been harping on is the supposed
>comletely lack of usefulness of naval gunfire support.  Now, I know
>that at least two gentlemen that were in positions to observe the
>results of 14" shells ariving at supersonic speeds on a target had
>very pronounced opinions about the effectiveness of naval guns.
>Both men, von Rundstedt and Rommel, thought that naval gunfire was
>a major factor in the German defeat in Normandy. *However* the
>gentlemen here at Purdue think that an Army intelligence officer
>knows more about the subject than either feldmarschal. Apparently
>O'Connel's in-depth (I'm joking) analysis of WWI gun-direction gear
>has made him an expert on WWII gun-laying ("So wouldn't the coal-
>smoke from the stacks make it damn hard to see the target, Adm.
Halsey?)
>
>So, if you've got some citations handy that would help me refute
>a ground-pounders wise analysis of naval gunnery, I'd appreciate it
>you'd send them to me.  I don't have the energy to plow through
>stacks of books (and Purdue's libraries have exactly as much helpful
>information on the Navy as you'd expect to find in the middle of
>a cornfield in Indiana.)  I don't ask any great efforts from anyone,
>but if you have what I need handy, I'd appreciate your help (you
>guys at Annapolis got anything?)
>
>TIA,
>Larry J
>
>
>LJEWELL@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Mod.: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical
docs)
>"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and
wholly
>unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of
life."
>Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41
>
>
Larry,

I have a couple of books which may be useful: _Amphibians Came to
Conquer_ (2 vols, bio of Adm. Richmond Kelly Turner), and a study done
by the USMC general who was responsible for naval gunfire support.  I
think the title is Naval Gunfire Support for Amphibious Operations.

What was learned was that general bombardment was not the approach to
use.  Pointer (direct) fire against fortification at under 3000 yards
was the most effective for destruction.  General bombardment suppressed
the defenders, but did not disable them.  Tarawa/Betio is a good example
of general bombardment effects.  The Marshalls are a good example of
pointer fire effects (Spruance Haircut).

When the German's counterattacked at Salerno, they were stopped by NGFS
which stripped the armor of its supporting elements (artillery,
engineer, infantry) by forcing them to take cover.  The unsupported
armor was destroyed by tanks, anti-tank, infantry and artillery.
f you want sone specific quotes, let me know.

By the way, the Navy was oil fired in WW2, with the possible exception
of some really old transports or supply ships.  So now you have a thread
to start unravelling the ground pounder's understanding of the reality
of the situation 8-)

Ed Kettler
deradler@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:00:14 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship designations

I just talked about the Iwo Jima (LPH), Tarawa (LHA) and Wasp (LHD)
Amphibious Assault Ships. Well, I know this is not related to WWII,
but I'm curious.... What do LPH, LHA and LHD stand for?
(I guess "L" = Landing, "H" = Helicopter, but the others?)

Now, returning to WWII :-)
Did the japanese have also any kind of designation for their ships?
I mean, letters and hull numbers for their "BBs", "CVs", etc?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:02:38 EDT
From:    Ken Martin <cn1299@COASTALNET.COM>
Subject: Rudolph Hess

      I've read a few books on Hess and find him fascinating.  Everything
from his flight to Scotland, imprisonment at Spandau, and his death intrigue
me.  The tv show Unsolved Mysteries implied that Hess was murdered at
Spandau and did not commit suicide.  They reasoned he was too feeble to tie
an electrical cord to the ceiling and hang himself.  There is supposedly a
cover up to protect some royal families in Scotland also.  If anyone knows
of a good book on this subject or has knowlege of any of these topics I'd
love to hear from you.


                            Ken Martin     cn1299@coastalnet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:14:43 -0400
From:    "H. Emery Ford" <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam

Lou,

Do you have any references for the amount of SPAM exported to the Soviet
Union during WWII?

Emery

On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Laugh at SPAM if you (guys) will, but it's astronomically
>   high fat/cholesterol content helped keep a LOT of Soviet
>   men, women, and children alive through their wartime
>   winters.  As a survival food, it's hard to beat!
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:43:13 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Chris!

>      1.  Suppose Hitler had declared neutrality in the Pacific.
> Suppose he had gone before the Reichstang and declared that he had
> no quarrel with the United States.  I wonder if FDR would have
> dared asked for a declaration of war in the face of such generous
> German sentiments????????????????????????

    Not really. At any rate, Hitler went to extraordinary lengths to
not to provoke the US in any way prior to 11 Dec 1941. At any rate,
even if Hitler had made such declarations, they would have gone by
the wayside later on, and it would have been inevitable that the US
went to war with Germany.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:14:23 -0700
From:    Jim O'Neil <jconeil@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

>Terry,
>
>    The Fritz X radio guided bomb was able to be controlled from the
>bombadier of the aircraft (usually a Condor or a Do-217E-2), but it
>was not TV guided.  According to the Discovery Channel's report (and
>my own reading), the Fritz X was controlled much like a radio controlled
>airplane today would be.  It was a "line of sight" controlled bomb, which
>meant that the bombadier would have to watch the bomb out of his bomb
>bay and guide it to its target.  The disadvantage to this was the fact
>that as the bomb fell further away, it got smaller to the bombadier, and
>of course that made it harder to aim.
>
The bomb [missile] had a flare in the tail; the bombadier put/flew the
flare onto the target and kept it there... obviously the bomb hit if he did
it successfully. This is the same guidance system the SAGGER AT missle used
in the Arab-Israeli wars.

Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:40:31 -0700
From:    "Haque,Sultan" <HAQUES@SCPMG.COM>
Subject: WWII CLIP ART

Greetings to all:

I'm new to this list.  Does anybody know of a good collection of WWII clip art?  I've been looking for some to jazz up a hobby newsletter that I'm considering but, so far, have been unable to find any besides the Arts and Letters Warbirds CD-ROM.

S. Haque
haques@scpmg.com
Pasadena, California

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:14:26 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

        Try David Irving's "Trail of the Fox"-- good reading, and an attempt,
at least, to get inside Rommel's mind.  "The Rommel Papers" is also a must.

        Regards

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:31:41 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Terry,

>
>      The paper is at least 12 pages, and is mainly a biographical
> piece.  I must also participate in the classroom, acting as Rommel,
> giving insight as to how he would act.  So anything that could be
> helpful in that respect would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Chris Bailey

In that case you need to read _Infantry Attacks_ by Erwin Rommel.
That book will give you a good insight into Rommel as a young officer
shortly after WW1.  It was published in 1924 when he was a Captain in
the Reichswehr.  He details how he won his Iron Crosses and his Pour
le Merite (Blue Max) which he first fought the Italians to earn and
the German High Command to recognize!

Acting like Rommel, hmmm, that would depend a lot on what stage in his
life you are looking at.  As a young officer in WW1, as an officer in
the Reichswehr, as an officer in the Fuehrerhauptquartier, as General
in France 1940, as the Desert Fox, as commander of Northern Italy, as
defender of the Atlantic Wall or as participant in the 20 July 1944
plot against Hitler all would be different.  Tough task.

Backchannel me with specific questions and I might be able to give you
a pointer or two.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:46:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Chris!

I am interested in knowing what you must do in class to give an
insight into how he would act.

    You might consult the following works:

        Rommel by Desmond Young
        Knight of the Iron Cross (author's name escapes me)
        The Trail of the Fox by David Irving
        Invasion, They're Coming by Paul Carrell
        Rommel as Field Commander by Ronald Lewin
        The Rommel Papers by B.H. Liddell-Hart
        The Foxes of the Desert by Correlli Barnett
        The Desert War by Correlli Barnett

These works should provide ample insight into the man.

Hope this helps.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:45:29 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rommel request

WITH ROMMEL IN THE DESERT, by Schmidt(?) is excellent

ROMMEL:  THE DESERT FOX, by Desmond Young is the first
  adulatory presentation of Rommel to the West by a
  British officer (who I think had been captured in the
  campaign).  It isn't always objective or accurate,
  but it shows his universal charisma and probably
  caused the film starring James Mason to be made.

Carrell's FOXES OF THE DESERT shows Rommel's effect on the
  German soldiers and campaign, there.

Von Mellenthin's PANZER BATTLES gives you a good view of
  Rommel from a General Staff officer's perspective.
  (Rommel was *hell* on his officers, especially if he
  thought they were not performing to their potential.)

Lou Coatney, who did a 4-source paper on Rommel in his
  high school sophomore English class.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:50:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Inf:  Ballad of a Soldier - video for sale

Hello, Jim!

Thank you very very much for that post on this docu/movie. That is
one I had been hoping to view again, but has never been aired since I
saw it for the first time in 1974. If you haven't seen it, it is
something, even without subtitles. The scenes convey all that is
necessary to comprehend what that young Russian soldier is feeling at
the time.

    All the best, and thanks again. Will get it.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:52:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

Hello, Jim!

Thanks for the update on the Fritz X. It is always amazing to me how
such technology that existed then has continued to find uses to this
day.

All the best.

Terry
>
Jim O'Neil   Indecision is the cornerstone of Military Flexibility >

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:53:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Condor Bomber - TV Bomb?

Hello, Joe!

Thanks for the info on Fritz X. The Germans did have such a "smart"
bomb, but the name escapes me for the present. It did have a tv
camera in the nose.

Will try to locate the name of it.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:58:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ship designations

 >> I believe these are correct:
 >>
 >>         SS   Submersible Ship
 >>         CV   Carrier Vessel
 >>         CVE  Carrier Vessel, Escort
 >
 >The "V" in the Aircraft Carrier designations comes from "Fixed Wing",
 >rather than "Vessel". I really don't know how was the "V" originated,
 >but the Navy likes very much to use it to indicate "Fixed Wing" :-)
 >
 >Just remember how are designated the Fixed Wing squadrons
 >(VF, VA, VAW, VAQ, VS, VC, etc), while the helicopter squadrons
 >are designated with "H" (more logical, of course....)
 >
 >Jorge Merino

Jorge,

The V in VF, VA, etc stands for heavier-than-air (HTA) to differentiate
these units from lighter-than-air (LTA or Z) units.  These
abbreviations originated in the 1920s when the US Navy had both LTA
and HTA units.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:01:17 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Whitmann vs Pool

Hello, Robert!

If Mr. Pool was a fighter pilot then, if the 