++++> > Also, though similar in form, the 'yr' before the verb can hardly have >developed from the article. It would be better to call it a pre-verbal >particle. I wish to disagree here. I'm almost positive that I've seen the following in formal writing, and it's hard to imagine how it could be anything other than the article (besides, I was told by a native Welshman that it was the article): Yr wyf yn mynd i'r Tad.... Y mae llawer o .... The article again appears before the verb in dependent clauses: Dwi'n meddwl y bydda'n mynd i Gymru eleni. so it's not too much of a stretch in my mind to assume its vestigial presence in independent clauses. What do other people think? >+++++ I think Mark is missing the point. There is no doubt that the particle is similar in form to the definite article, including its variation according to phonetic form. But I certainly remember from my long-ago study that it was never described as being the article, but a verbal particle (and substituted by different particles in different parts of Wales, no?) To say 'In Welsh you put the definite article before a verb' is IMHO bizarre and more confusing (because people like me would try to make sense of it) than 'In Welsh the verb is preceded by a meaningless particle which takes the same form as the definite article. Colin Fine ps I recently met a Welshman who knew more than one verse of Hen wlad fy nhadau - this is unprecedented in my experience! (I know three verses, and two in Breton, but then I'm not Welsh).