To: Multiple recipients of list WELSH-L In-Reply-To: <9401161807.AA11362@lingdomain> Robin S.'s observations on dialect vs. error seem pretty sound. As far as speaker and hearer both being unaware of a usage's deviation from a given standard -- dialect speakers frequently use "nonstandard" forms as a mark of local pride: "this is the way we say this here." (It seems to me I read a good study of this pertaining to speech patterns on Martha's Vineyard or Block Island in New England.) Sorry this is not strictly a Welsh response. I don't have enough Welsh yet to write messages in it, I fear. Seeing others writing in it is a great learning tool. One question on phonology. I have never seen a description of the sounds of Welsh that used International Phonetic Alphabet. Since I don't have access to a speaker from North Wales, can anyone tell me exactly what NW "u" sounds like? I gather it is not French "u," but is it like the Russian "y" in "ty" or the Turkish undotted i or Japanese unrounded u? I also get the impression that there are lots of exceptions to the "penultimate stress" rule. Is this so, and does anyone have a list of the most common ones? Diolch yn fawr!