> > >Many thanks for this information. How do people feel about the > >following as an alternative (ysgrifenedig) for (1)? > > > >1. Nid yw'r dyn y dywedodd John y gwelodd Mary yn yr ystafell > > This sentence does not mean the same as the English for sentence 1. I would > translate the above as: > The man that John said that Mary saw is in the room. > > Hope that is of some help, > > Lyn Lewis Dafis > Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru > lvd@aber.ac.uk Well, it certainly makes things interestingly complicated! OK, time for cards on the table. I'll quote verbatim two example sentences and their English translations from a book I have in front of me (a book on grammatical theory rather than on Welsh per se, but still ...): y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n y gwelodd Mair 'the man that John said saw Mary' y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n y gwelais i ef 'the man that John said I saw' -- the implication being that 'the man that John said Mary saw' would be: y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n y gwelodd Mair ef That is, starting with (A) DYWEDODD SIO^N I'R DYN WELD MAIR if you make "y dyn" the antecedent of a relative clause, we have (i) y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n iddo weld Mair (L.L.D.) or (ii) y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n y gwelodd Mair (A.N. Other) and starting with (B) DYWEDODD SIO^N I MAIR WELD Y DYN we have (i) y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n y gwelodd Mair (L.L.D.) vs (ii) y dyn y dywedodd Sio^n y gwelodd Mair ef (A.N. Other) Personally, my 'learner's intuition' inclines me to A(i) and B(ii). But it may be that things aren't very clear-cut in this area. Any other input from anyone? ************************ Nigel Love Linguistics Cape Town NLOVE@BEATTIE.UCT.AC.ZA ************************