Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.103 November 16, 1997 1) nit vs. nisht (Reuveyn Fraser) 2) Yecke (B. Fogel) 3) Baleytn in a lid (Chana and Yosl Mlotek) 4) turkey again (kathleen rose) 5) ba(g)leytn (Hershl (Paul) Glasser) 6) Beyond Etymology (sylvia schildt) 7) Eugene Debs (Neal Gosman) 8) Alexis Manester Ramer - dav(e)nen (Beni Warshawsky) 9) standard transcription (Hugh Denman) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:03:41 -0500 (EST) From: Gruvnruvn1@aol.com Subject: nit vs. nisht I frequently hear and see nisht written for nit. Is nisht just daytshmerish or is it part of a dialect. Another question: Does anyone have more information on the "recent law mandating the promotion of Yiddish" mentioned by Sholem Berger [07.102]? Reuveyn Fraser 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:25:24 -0500 From: bfogel@juno.com Subject: Yecke Leah Zazuler asks [07.101] for information of the word Yeki/Yeki. I assume that she means the name given to German Jews in Israel although I have only heard Yeke (the way I heard it pronounced) singularly and not doubled. While in Israel I was told the word originated when the Jews escaping Hitler to Palestikne were far more formal in attire than the earlier residents. They wore "jackets" which the Jews in then Palestine pronounced as "Yecket". From this developed the "Yecke". B. Fogel 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:19:23 -0500 (EST) From: EMlotek@aol.com Subject: Baleytn in a lid Benegeye dem "baleytn"-vekuakh, hobn mir gevolt dermonen az dos vort "baleytn" gefint zikh in a sovetish-yidish folkslid : "Baleytn, baleytn zaynen mir gegangen / Yunge prizivnikes in armey, in armey" gedrukt in der Beregovski- Fefer zamlung fun l938, oyf zayt 470. Chana and Yosl Mlotek 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 16:20 EST From: Kathleen_ROSE@umail.umd.edu (kn11) Subject: turkey again tayere khaverim, s'dakht zikh az mir veln shoyn zayn zat fun indik eyder thanksgiving vet kumen... ober ikh hob gefunen a firleyg vegn dem yikhes funem vort "turkey" vos men nutst es oyf english: "columbus brought with him luis de torres, a converso, on his voyage to the americas. de torres was a skilled interpreter who first addressed the indians they met in hebrew. the assumption was that such far-flung peoples were probably related to the lost ten tribes...and must have been influenced by the hebrew language. de torres remaind in the new world and is thought to have been responsible for the origin of "turkey" as the name for the strange new bird he observed - a corruption of the hebrew _tukki_ (parrot)". (norman berdichevsky "the mother of languages" _ariel_ 104 1997) s'hot nit keyn direkt shaykhes tsum yidishn vort "indik"--saydn ir zet mer vi ikh--ober redndik fun verter vos ganvenen grenitsn meyn ikh, az es past yo aher! zayt gezunt alemen, kathleen rose 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:57:43 EST From: paullaure@juno.com (Paul D Glasser) Subject: ba(g)leytn 1) Ershtns, iz Ruvn Milman kosher gerekht. Lomir zikh take farginen tsu koyfn yidishe liderbikher - derfun veln mir hanoe hobn nit bloyz fun eyn-eyntsikn lid (lemoshl, "Di grine kuzine"), nor fun a sakh, un di aroysgebers veln hobn a kosher fardinstl oykh. 2) Tsum inyen "ba(g)leytn" volt ikh nor gevolt tsugebn, az s'iz do nokh a tsol verter vu daytsh hot "g" un yidish nit un farkert: daytsh "erreichen", yidish "dergreykhn" 'reach' daytsh "dauern", yidish "gedoyern" (mit "ge-") 'last' daytsh "begnu"gen", yidish "banugenen zikh" 'suffice, be satisfied'(ober oykh "genug") Faran oykh a tsveyte grupke, vu daytsh hot "ge-" un yidish bloyz "g-": daytsh "gelu"sten", yidish "glustn zikh" 'desire' daytsh "gering" 'trifling', yidish gring 'easy' daytsh "gerade", yidish "grod" 'straight' daytsh "Gewalt" 'power, violence', yidish "g(e)vald" - ober dos iz dokh a bazunderer inyen. (Agev, dos opvarfn "baleytn" bansher-bekheyn der klang iz enlekh tsu "baleydikn" - ayo, dos iz af katoves?) Hershl (Paul) Glezer 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:06:38 +0100 From: creativa@charm.net (sylvia schildt) Subject: Beyond Etymology A kleyne bamerkung ... es iz eykh faran zeyer an interesanter inyen benugeye yidish un di shrpakhn fun velkhe zi shtamt, un dos iz der inyen fun sintaks, fun struktur. Zikher zaynen faran a hipsh bisl eynflusn vos hobn tzu yidish gerbrakht ir spetzyeln kharakter. Vos zogt ir ale, tayere mendelyaner, lingvistn, historiker, pedagogn, libhobers, u.a.v.???? A little comment ... there is a very interesting area concerning yidish and the languages from which it springs, and this the subject of syntax, of structure. There are certainly quite a few influences that have brought to Yiddish its very special character. What do you say, folks, dear Mendelyaner, linguists, historians, pedagogues, Yiddish lovers, etc. ????? Sylvia Schildt Baltimore, Maryland 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:27:30 -0500 (EST) From: YSRUL@aol.com (Neal Gosman) Subject: Eugene Debs Re Shana Lipsker request, see: Yudjin Viktor Debs, zayn leben, shriften un reden redagirt fun Y. B. Salustki aroysgegeben farn Debs fertaydinungs fond in ferlag "naye velt", nyu york. Copyright by Jewish Socialist Federation of America, 1919 Neal Gosman 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:47:30 -0800 From: Beni Warshawsky Subject: Alexis Manester Ramer-(dav(e)nen) In Alexis Manester Ramer's posting (07.099), he criticized my use of a respondent to test Weinreich's statement that dav(e)nen has a pseudo-etymology. The pseudo-etymology mentioned maintains that dav(e)nen comes from Aramaic and means "from the patriarchs." I was, at first, not sure whether to respond to the psychological aspect of the posting or the substantive aspects. Upon consideration, I decided to limit my remarks to substantive issues raised in that posting. Initially, I want to address Mr. Ramer's statement, "Scholarship begins when we realize that the world is not as simple as "common sense" and that goes double for anything to do with language, where native speakers ideas are almost always false." I agree that common sense has its limits and that there are contra-intuitive notions. However, scholarship divorced of common sense is building sandcastles at the seashore. Additionally, the casual dismissal of native speakers as a source of knowledge is opposed to all principles of scholarship I value. As for the source of the word dav(e)nen, one must remember that Weinreich called Yiddish, the language of the way of the Shas and he himself lists dav(e)nen among the "beyn odem lamokem" words which "the coterritorial non-Jewish population did not have at all or else had with a different nuance of meaning." Weinreich's understanding leads us to an exclusively Jewish source for dav(e)nen. As a paradigm for the development of the word dav(e)nen, lets use the development of term dukhnen. Dukhnen is the giving of the Cohanic blessing which required ascending the "dukhn"(platform). Rather than calling the mitsve by the formal term, "birkas cohanim" or "nesias kapim", the common folk named it dukhnen. As for dav(e)nen, the gemore Brachos (26b) states, "Always say our forefather's instituted prayer (tfile)." Consequently, it is convincing that the mitsve of prayer was referred to as the mitsve d'Avanan (from our fathers) and hence dav(e)nen rather than tfile. As for the term d'Avanan itself, it is comparable in structure to the terms Rabanan(our rabbis) and Maranan(our Masters). Accordingly despite Mr. Ramer's scholarly opinion, I am still most taken by the old Poylisher Khosid/Respodent's response that dav(e)nen shtampt. Beni Warshawsky Valley Village, CA 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:43:08 +0000 From: Hugh Denman Subject: standard transcription I think we should be careful not to confuse two distinct issues, on the one hand what lect of Yiddish we employ and on the other what transcription system we use. One of the few advantages of transcription over the original orthography is that it permits us to be specific about pronunciation. In most neutral situations it is no doubt preferable to use klal-yidish in YIVO transcription, but where dialect pronunciation is itself the topic under discussion or where individual Mendelyaner who are native speakers of certain dialects feel more at ease using their accustomed pronunciation it is also possible to use YIVO transcription (as several of the khevre already do with considerable virtuosity), since with one exception the dialects have no phonemes lacking in the standard language. [I say 'phonemes' advisedly. If one wants to make subtle distinctions at allophonic level it is preferable to switch to IPA.] The exception is the vowel-length distinction which is found in CY and certain varieties of SEY. I propose that we take a leaf out of the IPA-book and adopt the convention that we simply augment the YIVO transcription system with the symbol ':' to indicate distinctive vowel length. Thus CY 'di zin', 'der zi:n', 'di zi:n' (= klal/ NEY 'di zun', 'der zun', 'di zin'). Transcription systems other than the YIVO system do, of course, exist, but today the authority of the YIVO system is much greater than those based on the orthographies of German, Polish, Spanish, French etc. A fortiori we should eschew random mixtures of these. On transcriptions such as 'bubbe' and 'zine' (for 'zayn') I forbear to comment. Incidentally but on a closely related issue, one may have one's differences of opionion with Alexis Manaster Ramer on specific questions, but his plea [07.099:4] for sobriety and rigour on linguistic issues cannot be bettered and should be regarded as axiomatic. Hugh Denman ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.103 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html