Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.112 December 3, 1997 1) Dawwenen II (Claus Buryn) 2) Dutch Yiddish "dawwenen" (A. Manaster Ramer) 3) Yetta (Aron Mandl) 4) 'zol mir zan far dir' and 'vyiten lekho' (David Herskovic) 5) Hebrew-Aramaic words (Ellen F. Prince) 6) YIVO transliteration standard on the Web (Dvorah (Debra) Halperin Biasca) 7) Yiddish a la Wisse and WEVD (Harold L. Orbach) 8) dav(e)nen (Bill Weigel) 9) Non-linguists (Claus Buryn) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:18:08 +0200 From: Marion Troia & Lucas Bruyn Subject: DAWWENEN II In Mendele No. 7.071 Sema Chaimovitz Menora initiated a discussion on the etymology of the word 'dav(e)nen), or rather on 'davening'. Initially it was a free for all issue, but in time it became more of a private battle. Several readers have suggested a change of subject, but to no avail. Since the discussion can not be stopped, I would like to suggest another approach and ask the main contestants to come up with some proof that the forms they favor actually are attested in literature. I would also like to point out that suggestions made by readers for an etymology relating the word to an M.H.G. form have been rejected by the main players in favor of Hebrew and Aramaic derivations, while, going by popular vote, most contributors favored a Germanic origin. To sum up what has been said in this respect: In No. 7.072 Ruben Frankenstein mentions Immanuel Olsvanger's proposal: M.L.G. verb "daven" or "doven" (=to make a noise, twittering, warbling). In No. 7.074 Ariane Zwiers informs us that 'daven' comes from "German 'daune' which comes from the Middle High German word 'don' (or Low German 'dune')." meaning song, melody. In the same issue Bob Hoberman refers to the analysis of the etymology of davenen given by Solomon Birnbaum in Origins of the Yiddish language. He indicates that Birnbaum thinks the hypothesis: "Middle High German doenen" false and impossible. In No. 7.076 A. Manaster Ramer also mentions Birnbaum's refutation of M.H.G. "doenen": "His refutation of the Kosover etymology which seeks to trace davenen to MHGerman doenen is compelling.Yiddish would have daynen or deynen, not davenen, if this etymology were correct." And: "Also, as Birnbaum notes, one must add that Kosover relies on a 15th cent. manuscript in which der khazen do"nt, so this word specifically refers to what a khazen does, i.e., singing or intoning, not the mumbled or silent praying typical of Jewish custom. At this point in the discussion it would have been interesting to know whether Ariane Zwiers opinion is based on Kosover or not. Instead of asking this question A. Manaster Ramer puts forward his own favorite, which he ascribes to FlorenceGuggenheim-Gru"nberg: It traces davenen (originally daven) to theHebrew root D-B-B, whose primary sense is 'to move the lips'." He adds: "the word is attested in one Westerly Yiddish dialect, Dutch Yd, and it isnot clear whether it was indigenous or borrowed from Eastern Yiddish." He fails to indicate the source and gives no date. In No. 7.079 Esther Goffstein informs us: According to Max Weinreich: History of the Yiddish Language (Pg.24) the word was "doynen" (old Yiddish) before it changed to "davnen". "The grandparents might still have said /zaver and /doinen/ for zoyer (sour) and davnen (to pray)." and: "According to Weinreich, the word "davnen" is of uncertain origin (P.680)" In No 7.081 Alexis Manaster Ramer answers: "it is impossible that doynen could have changed to dav(e)nen. At best doynen was replaced by dav(e)nen. The two words cannot be related, as noted by Birnbaum. In No. 7.083 Sandra Layman reacts to Esher Goffstein, asking: "Is there any chance "doynen" could be in any way related to the Romanian verb "a doini" (to sing or play a doina), or is any resemblance purely coincidental?" Adding: "A doina is, of course, a slow, melismatic, sometimes semi-improvisational song (often melancholy) found in both Romanian and klezmer music. In No. 7.088 Meyer Wolf informs us: "The meaning of davnen in Yiddish, from its appearance in the works of Rivke Tiktiner in the late 16th century to the present is 'to recite the prescribed prayers' -- whether silently or at the top of one's voice." And further: "Unless A. Manaster Ramer has some earlier known attestation than those in the works of Rivke Tiktiner, who writes "dvnin" [v = veyz], there is no reason to believe that the verb was originally "daven"." In No. 7.098 A. Manaster Ramer reiterates: "Kosover's etymology involving MHGerman doenen is much worse [than another mentioned by him], that would have to give *deynen or something like that (as Birnbaum points out). He also mentions the W.Y form "oorn', derived from Lat. orare-to pray. In No. 7.093 Meyer Wolf adresses the semantic side of the issue, saying "Alexis Manaster Ramer does not address the problem of his proposed semantic development in the change from D-V-V to davnen. First of all, the development from 'to pray quietly' to 'to pray' (in general) is certainly not outlandish, but that is beside the point. davnen just doesnt mean 'to pray (in general), whether or not this is qualified by (Jewish) as U. Weinreich does." etc. In "der oytser fun der Yidisher shprakh" we find the expression: "dav(e)nen farn omed".Sholem Aleykhem has Motl use these words, speaking about the work of a khazn. This does not exclude other uses of the word dav(e)nen, but if the first attested use of the word is found in a "15th cent. manuscript in which der khazen do"nt", the original meaning could have been "chanting" instead of "praying" or "reciting in silence". In No. 7.108 I mentioned that the Dutch specialist on W.Y., H. Beem, favored Mordecai Kosower's explanation, deriving 'dawwenen' from M.H.D doenen. Beem suggest that there is a semantic difference between 'oorn' en 'doenen', giving the example: "De gemeente oorde, de chazzen doente". He does not say where he found this example.I assume he is referring to Kosower's source. Claus Buryn 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:48:32 -0500 (EST) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: Dutch Yiddish "dawwenen" I am sorry I forgot who posted the information from Beem's dictionary of Dutch Yiddish, but to respond to their questions, Beem's works are well known to Yiddish historical linguists, nor are they the only source on Dutch Yiddish we have. However, Beem conflates real data (namely, the fact that davenen is attested in Dutch Yiddish and that it has a short first vowel, as indicated by the "ww") with an endorsement of Kosover's completely fantastic etymology (which has already been discussed here). So when Beem says (in Dutch) that the khazen davens, whereas the congregation oors, he is simply restating in a most confusing way Kosover's observation based on a single medieval manuscript that at some point in teh history of Yd the Middle High German verb doenen 'to sing' was used with refernce to a khazen. However, there is simply no way that davenen can come from doenen, as noteed by Birnbaum, so that this is a dead end. What we are left with is a mystery: we do not know how davenen was used in Dutch Yiddish, and we do not even know whether this verb was indigenous to Dutch Yiddish or whether it was borrowed from recent immigrant Jews from Eastern Europe. A. Manaster Ramer 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:28:53 EST From: Aronio Subject: Yetta Thank you to Bernard Katz for responding about the spelling of Yetta. The only two spellings that I found in the Seyfer Kav Noki were Yud Tes Heh and Yud Tes Aleph. I would have thought that there should be an Ayin after the Yud, perhaps even Yud Ayin Tes Ayin. Any thoughts? Aron Mandl 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:35:50 +0000 From: David Herskovic Subject: 'zol mir zan far dir' and 'vyiten lekho' In mendele 7.079 Iosif Vaisman wrote 'I would be grateful for pointers to the equivalents of "zol mir zayn far dir / vey iz mir far dir" in other cultures and for information about regional variations/usage in Yiddish.' In last week's sedre we have Rifke inciting Yankev and conspiring with him to grab the brokhes out of aysov's jaws, so to speak. When Yankev gets concerned that he may be caught and land himself with a plate of curses instead, his mother assures him with her classic braytkayt 'olay kileloskho beni', meaning your curses on me, my son. Ibn Ezre after some commentary adds, 'and this is a common phrase amongst women'. While on last week's sedre, there are a few gramn associated with the berokhes 'veyiten lekho'. I wonder if they are parts of songs or just sayings. Veyiten lekho kayn gelt is nisht do mital hashomayim fin feter khayim imishmanay ho'orets fin grobn porets David Herskovic 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:53:35 EST From: "Ellen F. Prince" Subject: Hebrew-Aramaic words In Mendele Vol 07.111 Mikhl Herzog write: "Hebrew-Aramaic words like _got_, _bentshn_, _leyenen_, _praven_, _treybern_, right?" And we can add: shul, milkhik, fleyshik, yortsayt, glat [koshr], yarmulke, [toyre] lernen, likht ('candle'), afikoymen, pishke, vayn, etc... :-) Ellen F. Prince 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:54:39 -0700 (MST) From: BIASCA DEBRA HALPERIN Subject: YIVO transliteration standard on the Web In response to Milton Rosenberg's inquiry, our Vinkl's webpage has a link to the YIVO standard for transliteration of Yiddish to Roman characters. http://rtt.colorado.edu/~biasca/yivosys.txt Dvorah (Debra) Halperin Biasca Boulder Yiddish Vinkl 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:49:20 -0600 (CST) From: Harold L Orbach Subject: Yiddish a la Wisse and WEVD The note by Iosif Vaisman on Wisse's new article and view on Yiddish and leftist secularism (7.109) should be read in the context of the recent discussion about WEVD and Eugene Victor Debs, for whom it was named. WEVD was not created as just a Yiddish radio station, it was a _socialist_ yiddish station, just as The Forward was a _socialist_ yiddish newspaper. It is perhaps not an accident either that the only two socialists ever elected to the U.S. Congress, Victor Berger of Milwaukee and Meyer London of Manhattan, New York were Jews. The continued attempt to denigrate the secularist Yiddish movement is unfortunate. Like other movements, it had its positive and negative components vis a vis Yiddish, but that it made a lasting and significant contribution -- particularly in the U.S -- cannot be set aside. If nothing less, that spirit survives in the names of two of its most lasting products, WEVD and The Forward. Harold L. Orbach Manhattan, Kansas 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:51:44 -0800 (PST) From: weigelw@socrates.berkeley.edu Subject: dav(e)nen Mendelyaners- First let me introduce myself. I am Bill Weigel, a Berkeley grad student in linguistics, working mainly with American Indian languages, but also very interested in Yiddish, especially the early history of Yiddish. This is my first MENDELE posting. I don't claim to know the origin of 'dav(e)nen', but I think that there are problems with the derivation from Hebrew 'davav' that haven't been raised in the MENDELE discussion. My first question is, exactly what form is 'dav(e)nen' supposed to come from? (Since the borrowed word must be an real form, not a root.) 'Davav' itself certainly won't work: it has an extra consonant (the second veys) that does not appear in 'dav(e)nen'. This isn't a trivial objection. Numerous Hebrew words based on structurally similar roots ('double-ayin' or 'ayin-ayin' roots) show up in Yiddish, and almost always fall into one of two categories (1) Hebrew words with the second radical appearing twice, in which case it also appears twice in Yiddish, e.g., svive, skhakh, etc. or (2) Hebrew words in which the second radical appears only once, but with a dagesh, indicating gemination (doubling), e.g., Hebrew sibba, sukkoth, kalla giving us Yiddish sibe, sukes, kale. In the latter case, therefore, if the second radical of the Hebrew root was a beys, pe, or kaf, it will show up in Yiddish as b, p, or k (not v, f , or kh), because of the dagesh. All the Hebrew words I could find based on the root DBB conform to either category (1) or (2): davav, devev, davuv, dibba, etc. None provides a plausible source for 'dav(e)nen'. Of course, there could be a Hebrew word 'dav' based on the root DBB (cf. 'rav' from root RBB). This might yield as a Yiddish word either 'dov' (like 'rov') or 'dav' (like 'tsad' from root TsDD). The problem is that there does not seem to be any such Hebrew word attested. The meaning of 'davav': I agree with A. Manaster Ramer's remarks about the unpredictability of semantic change, so this is really just an observation. In this exchange it has been assumed that 'davav' meant simply 'speak softly or whisper,' but my impression is that the typical meaning had a malevolent connotation: Jastrow's Dictionary of the Talmud gives meanings like 'murmur, evil speech' etc. for davav (and Aramaic dvava), and phrases such as the Aramaic ba'al dvava 'informer, opponent.' The same applies to the words based on the root DBB listed in Mandelkern's Tanakh concordance, with one puzzling exception. While there are certainly cases where Yiddish adds a malefactive or ironic twist to a Hebrew word (e.g., khokhme), I can't think of any examples of the opposite process. None of this rules out 'davav' as the source of 'dav(e)nen', but it does make it a less likely candidate. Bill Weigel 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 12:39:31 +0200 From: Marion Troia & Lucas Bruyn Subject: Non-linguists A. Manaster Ramer writes in 07.111: "Thus, I must conclude that he is conceding that IN GENERAL informants who are not linguists canNOT come up with correct etymologies". May I, as a non-linguist, suggest that popular etymologies or pseudo-linguistic, false etymologies sometimes work there way into a language to become generally accepted in time. I believe many examples could be found in Modern Latin, where originally non-Latin words acquired a Latinised form. (The reverse also occurs. A modern example is Dutch 'succesievelijk', wich recently has become 'zig-zag-sievelijk in popular usage). I don't possess the linguist's bag of trics to relate Old Yiddish 'doynen' to Modern Yiddish dav(e)nen but I can imagine that at some point in time Hebraists tried to come up with a Hebrew form for an originally non Hebrew word, because this word was related to religeous practice and therefore ought to be of Hebrew origin. Because spelling rules were not fixed, a form D-B-B+[(e)nen?] might have been introduced, based on D-B+nen or D-V+nen. It seems quite amazing that there was a need to borrow foreign words for 'saying prayers' such as 'oorn' in the first place. A. Manaster Ramer still has not revealed his Dutch Yiddish source for the D-B-B form he keeps defending. 15th century 'do"en'[o"=?] and and late 16th century 'dvnin'[v = veyz] have been attested. Claus Buryn. ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.112 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html