Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.116 December 10, 1997 1) Nomberg's tsvishn berg (Joachim Neugroschel) 2) Buryn and Wolf on davenen (A. Manaster Ramer) 3) "Fonye" (Wolf Krakowski) 4) Organizational Co-operation (Fishl Kutner) 5) Frankenstein on dav(e)nen (A. Manaster Ramer) 6) Fonye (Alice Honig) 7) a bisl vayter mit davnen (Arthur Komar) 8) Shteeble (harry stein) 9) H. D. Nombergs "Tsvishn berg" (Andrey Bredstein) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:54:36 -0500 (EST) From: ACHIM1 Subject: Nomberg's tsvishn berg In response to the criticism of my translation of Nomberg's "In the Mountains" (published in the current issue of DER PAKNTREGER), I feel that the complaint was based on an inadequate knowledge of German, which, for better or worse, supplies a large portion of the vocabulary in Nomberg's Yiddish style. Louis Fridhandler objected to my rendering the word "widrig" (a perfect example of daytshmerish) as "repulsive"--but that is exactly what it means. I've been speaking German all my life and I've been using the adjective "widrig" to mean "repulsive" (among other things) all my life. According to my Muret-Sanders German-English dictionary, "widrig" can also mean "widerwaertig", which likewise means "repulsive." As I've said before: if you can lift a dictionary with one hand, then it's not very useful for serious scholarship. If L. F. ever knows German as well as I and my dictionary do, then his carping might be taken seriously. As for translating "Indyaner" as "primitive tribesman": we sophisticates may not regard Amerindians as primitive. But both Nomberg and his characters do--and in order to get that sneering arrogance across, I felt that "primitive tribesman" had the same impact today that "Indyaner" had in Yiddish nearly a century ago. The character in question regards Schwarzwald as a bizarre creature to be looked at through the eyes of imperialistic anthropology. Incidentally, Nomberg's use of "Indyaner" to mean an Amerindian doesn't prove anything about its meaning in other contexts and other writers. As for using the original Germanified spelling of the story in the magazine: why not? Its inautheticity is part of its historical authenticity. (Try reading even more flagrant texts like the early books of A.M. Fuks. Joachim Neugroschel 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:24:35 -0500 (EST) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: Buryn and Wolf on davenen Mr. Buryn is wrong to imply that I am sugesting "that the non-linguist is not allowed to ask such stupid questions". My point was rather that up till now he and other amateur etymologists were not asking anything, but rather propounding dogmas ex cathedra. As for the specifics, it is certainly true that Standard Yiddish oy can corespond to Standard German au, but it simply is not the case that Middle High German oe or o" (as in doenen, do"nen 'to sing') corresponds to Yiddish ave, as it would have to if davenen were to come from this word. As has been known for around a century, MHG oe or o" corresponds to Standard Yiddish e or ey (I wont go into the rules for when we get e vs. ey). I am not sure why Mr. Buryn also wants to derive d from t, but that also will not work. There are certain cases of Yiddish that come from d, under rules which I dont think have ever been stated in the literature on Yiddish (i mean words like taytsh, taytn, etc.). But this has no relevance to the question of davenen. So the point is that davenen cannot be derived from doenen no matter how much one wishes to be so derived. So, questions are certainly welcome and in this case are easily answered. As for Meyer Wolf's coments, they are mostly correct, except that he seems to be implying that I did not know of Weinreich's refernce to the da:bab etymology as being mention in Landua'sletter to him, but it was in fact me that posted that information on Mendele some time ago. Also, I think it is going a bit far to say that the Hebrew data do not show any traces of the sense 'pray' for this word. It still remains to be worked out just what the Hebrew facts were in early medieval times--and I cannot do this in my present state of health, but I must assume that the 6th cent. example cited by Philologos is not made up. A. Manaster Ramer 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:07:30 -0500 From: "Wolf Krakowski, Paula Parsky" Subject: "Fonye" "Fonye" was used as a generic for a Gentile male. "Janek" was often used in Poland. "Fonye" was also used to denote the police, other authorities or "the man" (as employed in Afro-American/hipster argot). Wolf Krakowski 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:27:38 -0800 From: "Philip \"Fishl\" Kutner" Subject: Organizational Co-operation In Vol. 07.114 our remarkable, new shames suggests that we bury the hatchet in our differences in our opinions as to the status, nature and future of Yiddish. omeyn! It is also time that we begin to realize that the few remaining Yiddish organizations and publications learn to cooperate and not feel that we all need to go after that small piece of pie. Some budgets run into the millions while others run well under $10,000 a year. Several groups are very caring, giving and sharing. While others hold onto their ever- shrinking domain. It is interesting to note that some, who are most willing to give, are the ones who seem to be growing the most. A careful analogy to the Microsoft situation shows how important it is to have both a giant and yet foster the small upstart innovative groups. Be sure to read the recent article on Microsoft in Fortune magazine. Co-operation is the basis of success. Here are suggestions, that have been touted, which will foster this brotherliness/sisterliness and co-operation. Let us all publicize each other 's wonderful events. Let us all publicize each other's wonderful CDs and cassettes. Let us all publicize each other 's wonderful publications. If each person in a Yiddish group purchased or subscribed to a different publication, then at the meetings reports could be give. This would bring in new material, and a lending library could be started. Some of us have beautiful quarters while others work out of tiny offices or even out of our homes. Some of us need large benefactors. and are able to name sections in someone's memory. Others are able only to mention names in a publication. Each is important, and must be nurtured. Each is needed, and serves a function. Some serve a small geographic territory, and others fulfil minor functions for which the larger ones can't afford to allocate time and funds. Many are volunteers, willingly work, and wish only to cover out-of-pocket expenses. Again we should all commend Iosif for bringing up this topic. Mendele has a bright future. From Sherman to Miller to Vaisman, we keep on getting bigger and bigger. Fishl Kutner editor, der bay 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:54:43 -0500 (EST) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: Frankenstein on dav(e)nen Reuven Frankenstein writes: "a) Siegmund A. Wolf cites Gottfried Seligs Lehrbuch der juedischdeut- schen Sprache, Leipzig 1792, whre the word is written DAFNEN. This would support the etymology from the hebrew DAF (= page), which is also a yiddish synonym for "blat" (of Talmud or Siddur). b) In his shortly before Nazi occupation in Paris 1939-40 published "Milon Idi-ivri male" A B K (Imprimerie L. Beresniak) gives besides the english "dawn" for shakhris also the rather possible French "service divin" = tefila le-Elohim ve-asu bekitsur mehamila hashniya "divin" poal "davenen". c) Still I plead for the Hebrew verb DVV - davov, perhaps in coincidence with one of the above etymologies. " Re (a), this fact is known, but there is still no other example of Hebrew /f/ becoming Yiddish /v/ in this sort of situation, and the likeliest explantion here is Mikhl Herzog's, viz., that Selig wrote the word according to what HE thought the etymology to be rather than according to its true sound. I belive there are other examples of such pseudoetymological spellings in Yiddish. Re (b), how does Mr. Frankenstein propose to account for the change from French /i/ to Yiddish /a/? As for English dawn, this etymology was clearly proposed by somebody (I used to remmeber who but now forget) who thought that English dawn is pronounced /davn/ rather than /do:n/. Plus there are no English borrowings in pre-19th century Yiddish. Re (c), while I favor this same etymology, what we need are arguments or data that would help us plug up the holes, as I have mentioned before, not merely to cast a vote. A. Manaster Ramer 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:32:30 -0500 (EST) From: Alice Honig Subject: Fonye Nadia Paladini asks about where Fonye comes from (07.115). Fonye was a derogatory term for the Tsar of Russia.. the Tsar's "Chappers" (grabbers) went into YIddish shtetlach and into villages and "chapped" yiddish boys into the army for decades..therefore the tsars policies were a terror . "fonye" was the reference to the tsar.. in the duet song (entitled "Yoshke fort avek") between a betrothed and her young man who is being taken into the tsarist army . She sings" that he is going off to serve fonye.. and she is weeping.."du forst avek fonye dinen vest in mir fargesn" and ..the soldier- to- be reassures her: Klug zhe nisht und vaynt zhe nisht, siz alsding blote, Ich vel zayn bei fonye, der shentste in der rote (Dont wail and carry on so, i will be the handsomest one in the tsar's forces!) i love this duet because it mixes RUssian and Yiddish words so much and is essentially a humorous song. for example, when the maiden sings: koif mir nit keyn oyringlach and und mach mir nit shayn koif di a por shtivelach ( boots) Tsum priziv ( russian for the army) darfst du gayn. the chorus goes: oy oy oy oy yoshke fort avek noch a kush und noch a kush der poezd ( train in Russian ) gayt avek and she also sings: oy vay mamenyu es chapt mir on a shrek... Lomir zich gezeygenen der poezd gayt avek. In any case, this is a wonderful YIddish folksong that uses the word Fonye that you asked about.! Ich vuntch a gute Channukah tsu alemen!. Alice Honig 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:05:00 -0500 (EST) From: Arthur Komar Subject: a bisl vayter mit davnen As Manaster Ramer said "for the hundreth time" it has been PROVEN that doynen and davnen are not related. Unfortunately he has never presented the proof. We are expected to take it on faith because apparantly it is much too subtle and complicated for amateurs to follow. Wouldn't it be much easier and more efficient to present the argument for evaluation instead of asserting ones professional authority to be accepted on faith. Much narishkayt has often tried to survive by employing such a defense. My naive question is that since we know that zoyer and zover are intimately related why or how can it be PROVEN that doynen and davnen can not be? Also I ask only for a relationship, not a direction. Surely we know of many Yiddish (Hebrew rooted) words that have entered into German (e.g. ganif). We even know of more farfetched apparant relationships, such as derek and daroga, where it is not clear how such a relationship came about. Please, more content and less vituperation would be more helpful Arre Komar 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:02:31 EST From: HershyS Subject: Shteeble Someone told me that Jay Diamond on WEVD radio explained the derivation of the word Shteeble for synangogue as the following: That the Jewish religion, as opposed to others, is not practiced with cold- hearted pomp and grandeur but rather with simplicity, warmth and heymishkeyt. The Shteeble is not a stately building with magnificent artwork and stained glass etc. Hence, the word Shteeble; as derived from the english word stable. Ad Kahn. I would like to note again that this is second hand and might not be what he indeed said. But I would like to know if anyone knows anything concrete to support or to reject this notion. My personal feeling was that this is ridiculous and blatant am haaratzes but I would like to hear Mendele's responses. A neyer mendele leyner harry stein 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:34:34 +0300 From: "Andrey Bredstein" Subject: H. D. Nombergs "Tsvishn berg" Es hot mikh derfreyt biz gor, az me gedenkt nokh eynem fun mayne balibste shriftshteler, Hirsh Dovid Nombergn (1876-1927). Di leyener megn lib hobn zayn stil, oder farkert - es makht nit oys, vayl afile ven Nomberg volt in meshekh fun zayn gants lebn nit ongeshribn keyn eyn shure, volt er sayvisay barimt gevorn far di verter "yidishist" un "yidishizm", vos er hot oysgetrakht. Khuts dem hot er onteylgenumen in Tshernovitser konferents (geven a mekhaber fun der rezolyutsie!), gearbet in der varshever tsaytung "Haynt" (1912-1915), flegt iberzetsn af yidish di verk fun Shekspir, Tagor, vi oykh "1001 nakht". Un di brokhe af shraybn hot er bakumen glaykh fun zayn khaver un lerer Y.-L. Perets. Khoshever fraynt Louis Fridhandler shraybt, az "di yidishe shprakh un der oysleyg zenen daytshmerish <...> s'iz do a sakh drukfelers in der yidisher opteylung". Gants farshtendlekh! Dem tekst hot men gikher fun alts oysgezetst loyt der varshever oysgabe [H. D. Nomberg. Shriftn.- Varsha: Bikher far ale, 1909. 5 bender]; der doziker farlag iz fun eyn zayt geven zeyer konservativ in zayn oysleyg, un fun der tsveyter zayt hot aroysgegebn bikher mit a sakh grayzn, ober bilik zaynen zey geven nit tsu gefinen zey glaykhe. "_ikh hob dertseylt Sonien vegn im un zi iz gekumen im batrakhtn vi epes an indianer fun amerike_". Khaver Fridhandler halt az "Nomberg hot gemeynt, bashaynperlekh, epes a fremder mit a yikhes nisht tsu derkenen" un derfar an englisher iberzetsung "as if he were a primitive tribesman" past nisht. Deruf ken men entfern mit a bavustn vertl: vos vayter vet men avekgeyn fun original, alts nenter vet men tsu-n-im kumen. H. D. Nomberg iz geven a gor gliklekher mentsh - er hot gornisht gevust vegn polit-korektkayt (an ekhte kholyere fun undzer tsayt!); far im iz geven "a vilder indianer" poshet a shem-dover far epes shtark ekzotish un hot gornisht tsu tun mit der "rafinirter kultur" fun di indianer shvotim. Nit keyn "fremdn mit a yikhes nisht tsu derkenen" hot Sonie "gekumen <...> batrakhtn vi epes an indianer fun amerike", nor dokh epes shtark tshikave, modne, oysterlish, punkt azoy vi me batrakht in zoo-gortn an elefant tsi gor a pipernuter. Nit umzist shraybt Nomberg vayter azoy: "Zi iz gekumen <...> un hot zikh glaykh genumen im arumkukn, fun der noent, fun a perspektiv, fun a profil, on shum tseremonies, nisht tsu reydn mit im keyn vort." [band 4, zayt 10] Far a poylisher yid hot dos vort "indianer" aroysgerufn gor an ander bild eyder far an amerikaner leyener fun "Pakntreger Number 26" - ot iz der sibe iber velkher der iberzetser hot geshribn "a primitive tribesman"... "_akh vi viderig dos ponim iz in di momentn gevorn!_ <...> Dos vort, _viderig_, ken men nisht gefinen in Weinreich's oder Harkavy's verterbikher". S'kon zayn, az VIDERIK kumt take fun VIDER, vos iz faran say in Vaynraykh, say in Harkavi. Der batayt iz "hirsh" oder "sheps" (beyde leksikografn taytshn dos vort af english als "ram"; af hebreish ober zetst Harkavi dos vort iber als "ail"). Kedey beser tsu farshteyn Nombergn lomir a kuk tun a bisl vayter inem tekst: "...vi viderig dos ponim iz in di momentn gevorn! Vi umbaholfn, vi krenklekh shvakh, vi rakhmonesdik un vi narish..." [band 4, zayt 10] Nu, nit keyn sheps? A gantse beheyme! Mit derekherets, Andrey Bredstein mk"k Moskve. ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.116 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html