Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.153 February 23, 1998 1) Mendele's elitism (David Herskovic) 2) Noyekh Miller on Mendele's elitism (Mel Goldstein) 3) The nature of Mendele (Paul Ilie) 4) The nature of Mendele? (Louis Fridhandler) 5) lomir zikh iberbeten (Fred Sherman) 6) Mendele's elitism (Bob Hoberman) 7) The nature of Mendele (Irv Young) 8) Khala khalelyas? (Eric (Itsik) Gordon) 9) Soviet Yiddish Writers in translation (Leah Zazulyer) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:59:36 +0000 From: David Herskovic Subject: Mendele's elitism di khevre hobn mir gekhapt baym vort un gemakht fun mir a tsimes. So let me try and make my point but without rhetoric. The problem, as I see it, is twofold. A) The arrogant dismissiveness of some contributors towards those who don't share their knowledge in the given subject or wish to bring in a traditional explanation, and b) the tendency of posts to drag on and on and on, in many instances simply repeating what has already been said. Regarding supposedly wrong explanations I cannot add a word to that which has already been said by Ron Robboy (vol. 07.123): "As for the issues of folk etymologies, amateur linguistics, dictionaries, and Morality, they have all but merged with the particulars of the _davenen_ debate and seem to me they should be treated of a piece. While I agree with the position that informed, methodologically disciplined inquiry is essential if we are to develop anything approaching reliable explanations for some of these mysteries, I don't share the view that uninformed, methodologically undisciplined observation has no place on Mendele. What ought to be clear is that uninformed, methodologically undisciplined observation is traditional! It is a part of Yiddish culture, no less than the parallel tradition of great learning. As such, it is the mere fact of this stuff's existence, this half-baked oral pseudo-learning, and of the passionate concern for it, that is so interesting. To exclude it because it cannot be supported by linguistic science or because it is not in a dictionary distorts the reality of the culture." Even if one were to disagree with the above sentiments or if one wanted to clearly distinguish between proper etymology and folk stuff there are still plenty of ways of doing it respectfully. The recently deceased critic Chaim Bermant, who was anything but populist, once when writing about yidishistn added as an aside that there is nothing that they don't seem to know about. Now if this stereotype has no truth to it then there is no better place than this to dispel this notion. However, if, as I suspect, there is more than a bit of truth to it then mendele should be anything but the place to reinforce these damaging stereotypes. On the other point that subjects drag on for what seems like eternity, I fully accept that there are those who are interested in the subject but even they would agree that repetition does nothing to the argument. Should there not be a point where the editor calls for a moratorium on a subject because this time round the arguments have been exhausted? A respected regular contributor to mendele writing to me privately commented about an 'ivory tower of Yiddish for the perfect intelligensia'. I myself have felt deterred to bring up a subject for the fear that I will still be reading about it in six weeks time. Is this what most subscribers want? Methinks not. So vos is di eytse? Split up mendele in two so that like true jews we'll all have one list _not_ to subscribe to? khas vesholem, men zol zikh nisht farzindigen mit reyd. Set up a Ne'eman comittee over who is a yidishist? toyg oykh nisht. a poshete eytse, treat one another politely and respectfully (after all it would be inconsistent to reject folk etymology but adopt folk civility) and know when to put an end to exhausted subjects. And how about adding to the masthead the word 'culture' to complement 'literature and language'? David Herskovic 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:52:27 +0200 (EET) From: Melvin Goldstein Subject: Noyekh Miller on Mendele's elitism Iz es derloybt (s'farshteyt zikh nor fun tsayt tsu tsayt) a gute vort in Mendele arayn tsushmuglen? Noyekh Miller's five, succinct, wisely crafted paragraphs define the highest standards that Mendele might hope to achieve, and occasionally does achieve. Would that they could be fastened to virtual doorposts for the benefit of newcomers! Kol hakavod! Mel Goldstein. 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:42:50 -0800 From: Paul Ilie Subject: The nature of Mendele Gag publicly, shmag privately. Nu, so vy I don't kvetch too ven somting by Mendele don't intrest me? I jest kip scrolling til I find somting I like dat hes to do vit Yiddishkeit Me, I'm a proste yid who loves blintzes and enjoys Volketymologie more den real etymology ven I'm on-line. Off-line I'm a retired professor with preferences and tastes like everybody else, but who cares? Live and let live, it takes all kinds to make a world.. So vy does de vebmaster kip publishing all dese complaints and counter-defenses? Efter de foist hairing of complaints, dayenu. Genug, stop already (efter mine own, neturally). Paul Ilie 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:04:38 EST From: Lfridhan@aol.com Subject: The nature of Mendele? I am not aware that I was part of a "current dust-up over language". Well, so be it. I _am_ aware of suggesting that accuracy and care in any discussion advances the discussion while inaccuracy and misquotation makes the discussion spin out of control and sends it into chaos. That makes people upset. For example, contrary to Ellen Prince (7151, 2) I (7.150, 2) did not point out "the obvious that this is 'not a scholar's list'." I agree that this is not a scholar's list. I did not say it, but I agree with the implication that this should not lead to indulgence of unscholarly, nit geshtoygn nit gefloygn statements as fact. To Ellen Prince, I seem "shocked". Nit geshtoygn nit gefloygn. Further, implying that sincerely proposed but unresearched, folk impressions about Yiddish etymology are analogous to stating that "fire is produced by the movement of phlogiston" seems to be an attempt at reductio ad absurdum. It doesn't work. There is no equivalence. After all, though some linguistic insights may be established facts by now, most are still tentative, awaiting research work, some in progress. Phlogiston as a theory is not a work in progress. That's why linguistic research is supported in scholarly institutions, while research by phlogiston theorists is not. My suggestion to the "specialists": Contributing a carefully researched, educational insight (even if a work in progress) to Mendele prevents gagging, privately or publicaly. I return to my theme that the spirit of Yiddish needs protection. We must teach in humility and accurately, and we should learn with humility and accurately. Attempted mutual humiliation may sometimes be popular among so- called scholars but is downright unscholarly. Teaching and learning at the same time (can't have one without the other) fits perfectly both the Yiddish and the academic scholarly spirit. Louis Fridhandler 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 14:29:33 -0700 From: Fred Sherman Subject: lomir zikh iberbeten Concerning pro/am battles, can't we sit nice and maybe have a piece of fruit? I have this fantasy of a group of people who simply love the sound and the haymishe memories of Yiddish--scholarls, groyse makhers, elitists, competent speakers, newbies, whoever. I like having my questions answered and my errors corrected. But as much as I have enjoyed and learned from Ellen Prince's prior postings, I have a problem with her latest response. She wrote: "I don't recall anyone ever criticizing anyone's *question* on Mendele -- it's the *assertions* that have induced the gagging. (And know that those who've gagged publicly are but a small percentage of those of us gagging privately.) The Internet is 'a free country' and anyone can post whatever s/he likes to an open list -- but those who are motivated by a desire for warm and fuzzy feelings and who are guided by Herskovic's sentiment that 'Ignorance is bliss' should not be surprised when some of the response is disgust." Gagging and disgust,....really? Well, gag if you must, but it has consequences. When you show disgust publicly (i.e., online), you repel from the wonderful world of mama loshen not only those whom you target, but also others who have a very tenuous hold on Yiddish and would like it associated with pleasant experiences. Is disgust an aid to learning? Was your most effective teacher one who threw up on you or your classmates when you were wrong? Why not respond kindly and simply correct someone who, being mistaken, might not mind being educated? Is this so hard to understand? Is it so much to ask? What am I missing? Listen, I can't be angry at anyone today. I just discovered, in a musty closet, a record--that I thought I'd lost--of Jan Peerce singing "a din toyre mit got". lomir zayn khaverim. Fred Sherman 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:23:37 -0500 (EST) From: "R. Hoberman" Subject: Mendele's elitism Thank you to Reb Noyekh! Gently, kindly, but without pulling any punches -- sounds impossible, but you did it. In fact I think linguistics has an even harder time "getting any respect" than pants pressing or physics or history, because everyone thinks s/he's an expert on language. Everyone knows pants, quarks, and events are out there in the world to be examined objectively, but language is inside the head, and the community. Seems more like morals or a yerushe, than like germs or revolutions. That this turns out to be systematic is what makes linguistic research so fascinating. By the way, anyone interested in language will have a lot of fun (but maybe raise their blood pressure a few points) reading Steven Pinker's beautifully written book THE LANGUAGE INSTINCT. Bob Hoberman 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:50:34 EST From: YOU2IG@aol.com Subject: The nature of Mendele I'm relatively new to Mendele and must say I enjoy it very much. I'm not a linguist but am considered as speaking a pretty decent "mama loshen" learned from a remarkable bubbe who enjoyed showing off my yiddish ability to her friends whose reaction was, "er is take an Amerikannisher geborene ?" One thing has impressed me about Mendele, however. That is that if you have two self styled yiddishists it's not long before you get a polemic. It would all be a lot more educational for the rest of us if it came with a little less vitriol, sarcasm, inuendo and disparagement. I am under the impression that our participation stems from a love of this language. Let's lower the intimidation index. Hutz mich und zeits mich... Irv Young Isles of Capri, FL 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:01:06 EST From: EricArthur@aol.com Subject: Khala khalelyas? A request has come in to Arbeter Ring Los Angeles from someone writing a family memoir. He swears his mother uses an expression that sounds like "khala khalelyas," by which she means "out in the sticks" or "in the boondocks." I have run this expression by a number of Yiddish speakers at Arbeter Ring, including our teacher, but no one has heard it. His mother comes from the town of Anikst in Kovno gubernia; maybe it's a regionalism, although to my ear it sounds like it has a Hebrew tam. Can anyone help? If so, please post on Mendele, where I will see it (he doesn't subscribe), or contact him directly: His name is Lewis Chilton and he can be reached azoy: Chiltonl@dislink.jcte.jcs.mil The character before the @ is an L as in Lewis. A sheynem dank! Eric (Itsik) Gordon Los Angeles 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:34:09 -0500 (EST) From: Leah Watson Subject: Soviet Yiddish Writers Would appreciate a listing of Soviet Yiddish poets available in translation. Thanks. Leah Zazulyer ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.153 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html