Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.172 March 17, 1998 1) Morning Freiheit (Zachary Baker) 2) Leo Rosten (Zachary Baker) 3) A Guide...Hebraic Words In Yiddish (Bernard Katz) 4) Guri's "1000 Yiddish Idioms..." (Bernard Katz) 5) sholem alaykhem min hatoyre minayin? (David Herskovic) 6) Hare hunt in Hagodes (Hershl Hartman) 7) shmusen (Mikhl Herzog) 8) kurva (Meyer-Leyb Wolf) 9) Shayn khaseneh gemakht (Mel Poretz) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:08:30 -0500 (EST) From: Zachary Baker Subject: Morning Freiheit Microfilm runs of the Morning Freiheit can be found at YIVO, The New York Public Library, and perhaps in other libraries. When the Freiheit closed, about ten years ago, its editor Paul (Peysekh) Novick donated the newspaper's office correspondence and other materials to the YIVO Archives. Other, related materials are also available in the YIVO Archives and in other repositories. Zachary M. Baker 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:33:43 -0500 (EST) From: Zachary Baker Subject: Leo Rosten Concerning the late Leo Rosten, I would like to bring to the attention of Mendelyaner two articles that appeared in issue no. 185 of the YIVO News / Yedies fun YIVO (Fall 1997). The first, entitled "The Joys of Leo Rosten," describes the donation to YIVO of 53 volumes from the author's personal library of books written by him. The article describes Rosten as a "humorist, novelist, cinephile, journalist, and magazine editor," and it is in that perspective that his works on Yiddish should be appraised. The second article, entitled "Yiddish: A Word Defined," responds to a reader's inquiry concerning the word "doppess" (dapes), which Rosten defines as a "useless but commiserating bystander; [an] ineffectual observer who is of little help." In the article I am quoted as disputing Rosten's contention (in "The Joys of Yiddish") that the word is "not Hebrew but Ameridish: a local coinage of the garment center in New York. This Yiddish word, known only in America, was born in New York's garment center, of unknown parents, in some obscure loft -- possibly as a more scornful version of 'dope,' schlemiel, shmegegge." Instead, I proposed that doppess/dapes is related to the German "Taps" (meaning "clumsy oaf"), or "Dapps," a dialectal variant that is cited in Grimm's Deutsches Woerterbuch. I leave it to our Germanisten to either sustain this hypothesis or shoot it down. The point I am making is that Rosten's writings on Yiddish must be handled with extreme caution, to put it very gently. Incidentally, for what it's worth, the first editions of "The Joys of Yiddish" _and_ Uriel Weinreich's "Modern Yiddish-English, English-Yiddish Dictionary" were both published in 1968 by McGraw-Hill! Zachary M. Baker 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:39:01 -0500 (EST) From: Bernard Katz Subject: A Guide...Hebraic Words In Yiddish I haven't seen a response to Neil Jacobs' query about how to obtain copies of this work, since said query (and plea for help) appeared in Mendele 07.162. Assuming my "getting older" eyes haven't missed it, I'll pass the following on to him and to anyone else who might like the same info. Steven Jacobsen's book, A Guide To the More Common Hebraic Words In Yiddish, 4th edition, was published July 1995. I purchased a copy directly from Steve Jacobson that same year. he may be up to a 5th or 6th edition by now! The cost *then* was $17 (U.S.), including postage within the U.S., I believe. Steve's address *then* was P.O. box 82849, Fairbanks, Alaska 99708. It's a wonderful book! Bernard Katz 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:44:17 -0500 (EST) From: Bernard Katz Subject: Guri's "1000 Yiddish Idioms..." I see that Yosef Guri has had his "1000 Yiddish Idioms and Their Equivalents In English, Hebrew and Russian" published by the Hebrew University Press (169 pp., softcover). Has anyone on Mendele had the opportunity to see this book and if so could we have some comments about it, please and thank you? A shaynem dank derfar! Bernard Katz 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:03:08 +0000 From: David Herskovic Subject: sholem alaykhem min hatoyre minayin? Ofn liste fin YiddishNet, ongefirt dorkh Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky, bin ikh gevoyr gevorn az ofn oylem hanets gefint zikh a bletl leili nishmas sholem alaykhem. http://www.sholom-aleichem.org/ Es hot mikh bald fardrosn. Hayitokhn az aza shtikl nayes zol ikh nisht ersht hobn gelaynt of mendele? Hot take mendele a shem ra az es farnemt zikh nor mit di inyonim vos der malekh hot osgelrnt yosefn ven er hot geyoyshevt baym sar hatabokhim? In az es iz azsh yo azoy iz dokh shver ma inyen shmite aytsel har sinay? kloymer vos hot mendele moykher sforim, al shem veym deym liste hayst, farlaygt mit diye klayne oysiyes? Er hot dokh geshribn slavisms az es gayt a royekh. Ir kent mikh ale rifn knak nisl az ikh farshtay a tseyntl vos er shrabt alts. K'hob ober ariber gerifn dem mazl es derlangt a knak in k'hob shnel fargesn fin ale mane tsores. Es hot mir bageygnt a bild finem reben alayn. Akhits dem vonze, dos tashen zayger in der proste shnipsl hob ikh bamerkt az er hot nisht aynts nor tsvay feyders inem vestl tash. Nu, sof kol sof iz er dokh geveyn a yid. Ikh knak vater mitn mazel in ikh zey a bild fin a yingn sholem alykhem vos er alayn hot tsi deym tsigeshribn 'ben khay shone'. Ikh shtel mikh for az sholem alaykhm hot gekent der mishne 'ben shmoyne esre lekhipe' nor di kale vast er ints nisht. Vi zogt nor di velt min hastam davent er a lange shmoyne esre. Inter deym bild freygt der melaket, take dem rebns an aynikl, tsi men vil zeyn nokh bilder fin sholem alaykhemn. Vos iz di shale? Reb Robert, tomer ir laynt dos zog ikh akh laygts arof vifil es shit zikh. A shale tsi a yid vil nisht zeyn sholem alaykhem? Upgekikt di bilder hayb ikh on tsi laynen zikhroynes fin zane ayniklekh. Ayner dertsaylt vi er fleygt krikhn of ale fier ven er hot zikh mit zay geshpilt in dermit gelekhert dem kop finem shokhn. Nokh dertsayln zay vi er fleygt ostoshen di galoshen fin zane gest in andre khokhmelekh, in vi er fleygt mit zay tsi shpiln in raytsn. Dem sakh hakel iz az er iz geveyn gor a voyle zayde, - khotsh lemase hot men eym gerifn 'Papa'. Hobn gelaynt di ale zakhn in dertsi zane shvere kinder yorn, in okh kenendik motl payshe khazns hob ikh mikh gevindert tsi es lign nisht do simonim fin a farshpiltn yignt vos der mekhaber vil zikh tsi deym tsirik tsikhapn. Ober diye inyonim zenen nisht man tspetyaliteyt. Ikh layn okh fin a profesor vos shrabt vi in sholem alaykhem ligt kol hatoyre kile in az men lernt mit studentn sholem alaykhem ken men shoyn mit deym pateren tsi lernen khimesh rashi in gemore toysfes. Akhits deym vert okh dermant in a por artikln veygn sholem alaykhem's 'shir hashirim', finem yerid. Ayn zakh nor hot mir osgezeyn epes modne. Inem mokem (site) iz do an iberblik finem eynglishn tatsh fin Motl Payshe Khazns vos hot dershaynt inem New York Times. Baym Times iz dokh sholem alaykhem nist kan gresere mekhitn vi hinderter andre shrabers in ven zay batsien zikh tsi eym in mitn artikl shrabn zay bloyz 'Aleichem'. Freyg ikh akh vos far a tam hot alaykhem onem sholem? Vi shimshen on di hor in vi moyshe onem shtekn. Shtelt akh for ven men zol lehavdil eylef havdoles aros geybn a bikh of lovon hoarami in men zol shrabn arami one lovon. Iz dokh kol shken sholem alaykhem vos afile der ershte halb alayn volt okh geveyn a khilel hashem iz avade ven men nitst nor 'Aleichem'. Farshtayt zikh az ikh layn okh veygn zan petire viazoy er iz nebekh avek in a dire serikhe in der Bronx ofn dratsetn may in nantsen zekhtsen in vi es zenen gegangn of zan levaye hindert fiftsik tosent melavim. Kenayne hore a levaye! In atsind kim ikh tsi tsim titl fin deym shtikl: Vi vert merimez sholem alaykhem in di toyre. Az a yid laynt veygn di ptire fin an erlikhn tid trakht er bald fin tsvay zakhn. Aynts az of yenem tog ken men zikh osdrayen fin zogn takhnen in dernokh vert di moyekh glakh farkrokhn tsi leykekh in bronfn of tikn leili nishmosoy. Tsi di zakhn darf men ober visn dem yidishn tog finem yortsat, val az ikh zol mikh onrikn in shil ofn dratsetn may mit tikn in di hent veln di khevre maynen az es hot epes tsi tin mit yom hatsmaut. Di mashke veln zay take ostrinkn ober mir veln zay aroskopn beomrom keomrom az di mashke iz a mitsve habo ba'avayre. Nem ikh mikh man elektronishn liekh in ikh zey az in yenem yor iz gefaln dem dratsetn may of shabes koydesh parshes behar, yid iyer. Ir hot shoyn avade ale gehert finem nayem bal hatirim, Mikhoel Drosnin. Shtots gimatriyoes treft er andre sort remozimlekh inem toyre. Er tsaylt of ahin in er tsaylt of tsirik in intsvishn vert shoyn epes a reymez. Hob ikh aros genimn a vayikro khimishl in ofgemisht parshes behar tsi trefn an aygenem reymezl. In vos maynt ir? yogato imotsoso tamin. Vifil psikim iz do in parshes behar? Zibn in fiftsig. In vifil yor hot sholem alaykhem zikh arim gedrayt of deym velt? Take okh zibn in fiftsig. Hot ir a befereshn posik. In s'iz nokh nisht ales. In parshes behar redt zikh fin shmite in yoyvl. In inzre rebe hot take geleybt a yoyvl mit a shmite. Hot ir shoyn a rashi okh. Deym pshetl past zikh efsher far an ingerishe ruv ober di kashe finm titl mist ir mir moyde zan hob ikh shayn farentfert. Hots mir ale a gitn tog. Dovid Herskovic 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:39:56 EST From: Hershl Subject: Hare hunt in Hagodes Diane Wolfthal (07.162) and others may be interested in an entirely different understanding of the "hare hunt" illustrated in _hagodes_ of the Middle Ages. I believe it was Max Weinreich who pointed out that this is a case in which Yiddish was used for liturgical purposes. As I recall it, the cartoon was a mnemonic for the order of the first seyder when it coincides with _shabes_: Yayin (wine), Kidish (blessing), Ner (candles), Ha-Zman (blessing of thanksgiving)= YaKiN HaZ = yogn hoz (chasing rabbit/hare). Hershl Hartman 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:36:24 -0500 From: "Mikhl Herzog" Subject: shmusen William Safire (March 15, 1998) missed the chance to tell us that "German _schmusen_" 'to wheedle', 'smoodge', 'cuddle' (designated as _burschikos_ 'student-like', 'unmannerly', and slang, in Wildhagen's German-English Dictionary), is derived from Yiddish _shmuesn_ 'to talk', 'to discuss', 'to chat', probably derived, in turn, from Ashkenazic Hebrew _shmuos_ 'rumor(s)', 'news', 'gossip', etc. (Hebrew root _shin, mem, ayin_ 'to hear', 'to listen', 'to obey'). In our salad days (Toronto in the 40s), when we spoke of_shmoozing_ 'necking', we thought we were speaking English. When we did it, we knew we were speaking a universal language. Mikhl Herzog 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:08:06 -0800 From: Meyer Wolf Subject: kurva Thanks to Ellen Prince, we now know that Church Slavonic, the written form of Old Bulgarian, had kuruva 'adulteress', which seems to be a more reasonable source for kurva in in the Slavic languages than a doubtful H/A etymon. Since Church Slavonic goes back to the ninth century, it is difficult to believe that kuruva or the like got to passed on to Bulgarian from Yiddish by way of other Slavic languages -- but perhaps I have misread Hugh Denman's etymology and he is saying that the Slavic languages got the H/A form from some other source language and passed it on to Yiddish. Meyer-Leyb Wolf 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 04:20:26 EST From: EMPE Subject: "Shayn khaseneh gemakht" Sounding that phrase triggered the memory of a related expression which I know has several variants. When something was too late for redemption, my mother was as likely to say "Fahrshoren der kalen un shayne" as much as Americans, using a popular advertising slogan of the twenties and thirties, might have said "Too late for Herpicide!" The bride's hair having been cut, it was too late for anything to happen other than that which was bahshert. I recall hearing several different "correct" versions a lifetime ago, but can't remember how any of them went. In any case, this is what my own mame-lushn tells me in the here and now. A shaynem dahnk. MEL PORETZ ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.172 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 7.072 October 6, 1997 1) The whole poem: Sutzkever's "Mayn Mame" (Lisa Duhl) 2) khremslekh (Ruth Etkin) 3) Maurice Ravel's chants populaires and melodies hebraiques (Russell Harris) 4) Food in song (Russell Harris) 5) Shlomo Katz (Marianne Luban) 6) Yiddish in the news (Iosif Vaisman) 7) language and dialect (Alexis Manaster Ramer) 8) languages and dialects (Ellen Prince) 9) davenen (Ruben Frankenstein) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 15:00:23 -0700 From: Lisa Duhl Subject: The whole poem: Sutzkever's "Mayn Mame" At Louis Fridhankler's suggestion, I am posting Abraham Sutzkever's entire poem, "Mayn Mame." This is my transcription the poem as published in Sutzkever's _Poetishe Verk_, band ayns, Tel Aviv, 1963, pp. 265-269. Khaver Friedlander has given me permission to post these following comments, which he wrote to me, by way of an introduction to the poem: "Sutzkever's poem is a stunning, heroic piece of work. To endure such pain, suffering, loss, loneliness and horror beyond description, and yet survive with mind, body and soul so much alive and strong is a wonder of wonders. Incredibly, he composed the poem in the very midst of and a target of those unspeakable crimes. He still could go on to create a triumphant body of work. I would guess his triumph was possible not only because he is so gifted but because he had the strength and courage to face all of that head on. None of us who was not there can blame those survivors who want only to forget. How lucky we are, though, to have those like Sutzkever who can teach us the truth. It hurts, but we'll handle it, and that's the way it is." Mayn Mame Abraham Sutzkever 1 es vorket a fraytik-tsu nakhts oyf a boydem, tsukst bay der shayn fun levone in sider. es davnen di shpitsn bay dir fun der late un tsukn vi teyln fun mentshishe glider. es trift mit levone fun dayne shvartsaplen, di mamishe tropns baloykhtn mayn gloybn. dayn tfile dermont mir on vareme khale, du kormest mit hartsiker tfile di toybn. in yeder dayn kneytsh iz bahaltn mayn lebn, ikh her vi du hust un du tsiterst, az keyner dem hoykh zol nit heren -- vayl do, in a vinkl, farshotn mit erd, lign oykh mayne beyner. es dremlt dayn hant oyf mayn shtern: zay ruik, a tog oder tsvey di yeshue -- a gikhe. dayn andere -- haltstu bay mir oyfn oyer, ikh zol nit derhern di shtim fun retsikhe. 2 vest mikh nit narn: ikh veys du bist toyt. khotsh du lebst in mayn kholem. vos brenen in dayn hartsn dray royzn in sharlakhn royt? farshtel nit. ihk veys ver dos zenen! farshtel zey nit mame, vos narstu dayn kind, vi kumen do royzn tseblite? ikh ze dokh dray purpurne koyln atsind: an ershte, a tsveyte, a drite. 3 tsimblt, ir tsimblen, derfreyt a gelekhter, fartoybt a geshrey. durkh felder itst yogt men mayn naketer mamen, ir layb iz a shtral in di shpiglen fun shney. un zi, vi tsum oysleyz, yogt ergets gikh, gikh un durkh der farfroyrener trer, vu di zun glit gefangen oyf eybik, derzet zi itst mikh. un tsvishn ir vide shtikt zi ariber a bentshung dem zun. es knaln di biksn. zi falt vi a toyb oyfn tron fun der zun. 4 un vu bin _ikh_ geven, beys undter tsimblen hot men dikh geshlept tsum eshafot? -- in hintisher bude fargrobn s'gebeyn, mit hintisher freyd vos farshilt zikh aleyn, oyf lipn -- a piavke, in oyer-- a shpin, hob ikh gelugt durkh a shpeltl ahin, vu unter levone, vos shpiglt der nakht, shpilt zikh der vint mitn perlnem shney. un di shneyen-kapelie, s'geheyme gedrey oyfn fon fun levone -- fun vanen di prakht? s'hot itlekher perele shney zikh geshpilt mit zayn eygenem shotn, un mir hot dos bild farshaft aza teyneg, az kh'hob azsh gebilt-- -- -- 5 laykhtn mir drey koyln in der nakht, loyf ikh zey tsum oysleyzn fun shotn. kum ikh tsu a geln toyer mit a shild bavakht: "akhtung! do iz krets. far nit-yidn -- farbotn!" bays ikh durkh di shteyner mit di tseyn un farn likht fun oysgezetste shoybn-vayslen ze ikh: di hayzer -- on neshomes. Kh'bin aleyn. di gasn -- a farloshener mizbeyekh. hob ikh moyre ontsuzen dayn shoyb, otemt mit dayn ksise yeder shtapl. zukh ikh mitn moyl dayn mindsten shtoyb, fil ikh dikh in vintishn getsapl. fal ikh tsu a shteynerdiker shvel: -- mame, ikh bin do tsurik, zolst visn! in di koyln veytikdik un hel brenen in dem umru fun gevisn. 6 zukh ikh di libe fir vent, vu du host geotemt, shvindlen di trep unter mir vi a vasergrub kokhik. dertap ikh di kliamke un rays di tir tsu dayn lebn, dakht mir: a feygele veynt in shtayg fun di finger. kum ikh in tsimer arayn vu s'tunklt dayn kholem -- tsankt nokh dos lempele koym, vos du host getsundn. shteyt oyfn tish a gloz tey, -- nit bavizn derzupn, tsaplen nokh finger arum oyf di zilberne randn. bet rakhmim dos tsingele likht in tsukikn lempl -- dergis ikh in lempl mayn blut s'zol nit oyfhern laykhtn. 7 kh'gefin anshtot dikh a tserisns dayn hemd, nem ikh tsum hartsn un drik es farshemt. es vern di lekher fun hemd mayne teg un der zoym funem hemd vert in harts mir a zeg. tserays ikh fun layb mayne kleyder un krikh in dayn ofenem naketn hemd vi in zikh. s'iz mer nit keyn hemd, s'iz dayn likhtike hoyt, s'iz dayn kalter, dayn ibergeblibener toyt. 8 redstu tsu mir azoy varhaftik ekht: -- nite, mayn kind, s'iz a zind, s'iz a zind, un undzer tseteylung nem on far gerekht az du bist faran, bin ikh do say-vi-say, vi der yoder in floym farmogt shoyn dem boym un di nest un dem foygl un alts vos derbay. Vilner geto oktober 1942 Tsu ale Mendelyaner - a gebentsht yor, a gut yor Lisa Duhl 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:07:31 -0400 From: "Ruth Etkin" Subject: khremslekh While I never have seen knaydlekh made with raisins, as described in David Herskovic's posting [7.070], it sounds like something I'd like to try. But khremslekh...that I know about. My mother always prepared them..lightly fried thick pancakes made of mashed potatoes, eggs and cinnamon...as the nosh for us all to eat while we gathered and waited for the seder to begin. It was the perfect "neutral" choice because it contained no khametz (of course!) and yet it did not include any matzo or matzo meal which we didn't use until the seder actually began; we didn't eat matzo from Purim to Pesakh. Their yearly arrival on the kitchen table (not to mess up the seder table in the dining room) tasted to us as manna must have tasted! Thanks for the memory. G'mar Khasima Tova to all. Ruth Etkin 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 16:56:58 +0100 From: rdeh Subject: Maurice Ravel's chants populaires and milodies hebraiques I found on a new Cecilia Bartoli CD (Decca 452 667-2), at long last, a new recording of some of Ravel's songs. >From his chants populaires - the chanson hebraique, sung in Yiddish (Mejerke mein zuhn), and his deux melodies hebraiques: Kaddish (original text) and L'Enigme Eternelle. These songs were recording years ago by Madeleine Grey, but Bartoli's recordings are luscious, her kaddish haunting. I would just be interested in knowing, as I am not a native speaker, any remarks about her pronounciation. Russell Harris 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 17:01:17 +0100 From: rdeh Subject: Food in song To all who helped with fisnoge, many thanks. I have managed to write an entry for the Oxford Companion to Food, and also a small article on the matter for Petits Propos Culinaires, a scholarly food journal. The new subject which addles my brain is that of food in song. Having listened many times to 'Rumania' (and recently to Di Goyyim's wonderful version), I wonder if one can find any logic in the food items mentioned in songs (almonds and raisons, mamelige, patlezhane etc) either individually or as prepared dishes. Thus requested are responses with name of food item and the title of the song. Please translate any obscure Yiddish words into the englishe loshen. Russell Harris 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 11:03:37 -0500 From: Saida Subject: Shlomo Katz To my pleasant surprise, I saw a name mentioned in several posts on the Mendele List that I haven't seen or heard mentioned in above twenty years--Shlomo Katz. Shlomo used to occasionally write to my late husband, who sent him one of my short stories. Even though I was only in my twenties at the time, Shlomo considered that my literary style was reminiscent of the old Yiddish writers. Indeed, many of my stories took place in pre-WW I Poland--mainly because I could not bear for this wonderful culture, so abruptly ended with WWII, to truly die out. I'm not quite sure why, but Shlomo Katz, a fine writer, himself, in addition to being a translator from Yiddish and Hebrew, became the most faithful of correspondents with me for several years until his death in the late 70's and his witty, sagacious letters saw me through a dark period in my life. Although there was an age gap of about 40 years between us and we only met briefly twice, I consider Shlomo one of the kindest and closest friends I ever had. Such is the power of the written word, even from a distance (Shlomo in New York, me in Minnesota)to forge a bond between individuals who are different in many evident ways. Marianne Luban 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:07:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Iosif Vaisman Subject: Yiddish in the news Moment, October 1997, v22 n5 p34 Change in Yiddish? Greater New York Savings Bank ATM machines use Yiddish for the transactions in the 14 Borough Park locations. Who said that the phrasebook with "Git mir an oystsug fun mayn konte" and "Vifl batreft mayn balans?" is useless? Harvard Magazine, July-August 1997, v99 n6 Mame-loshn at Harvard, by Janet Tassel Probably for the first time in its history Harvard Magazine features an article title in Yiddish. A full-length profile of Harvard's first chair of Yiddish literature Ruth Wisse provides interesting insights into her scholarship and political views. The article with accompaning insets "What is Yiddish?" and "A Revival of Yiddish?" is available online at http://www.harvard-magazine.com/ja97/yiddish.html Forward, October 3, 1997 v101 Der Yiddish Vinkl Der Yiddish Vinkl in the last Forward claims adherence to the standard transliteration. Alevay other Forward's departments join Der Vinkl and avoid things like "tie'erer ainekel" on the first page of the same issue. Iosif Vaisman 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: language and dialect Alexander Maxwell writes: Manaster Ramer's observation that Weinreich was "at least part of the time" a linguist is absolutely correct, but he wasn't being a linguist when he claimed that mideaval Yiddish was a language not a dialect, he was propagating his conception of Yiddish nationalism based on a language. My response: I dont think that is true. Perhaps he was being a nationalist AND a linguist. Solomon A. Birnbaum, who I dont think you could consider a nationalist, took the same view re Yiddish. And I am quite sure that I have read any number of linguists who accept the idea of language and dialect as social and not linguistic facts. But I cant recall the references. This is relevant to the following as well. Alexander Maxwell further writes: Anyway, Linguists as such aren't interested in this status debate over languages and dialects. If you tell a linguist that Yiddish has a strong 'verb-goes-in-the-second-place" word order rule, just like German, the similarity is interesting to him. If you tell him that Yiddish reflexives don't decline by subject, but German ones do, that's interesting too. But if you use such factoids to argue that Yiddish obviously therefore is a dialect of German/is it's own language distinct from German, the pure lingust shrugs his shoulders, whatever you say, buddy. My response: Linguists like Ellen Prince and I--probably yes. But there are loads of linguists who make their livelihood not by studying the sturtcure and history of languages (or of Language) as we do, but rather percisely by studying social attitudes to languages. I dont think they would shrug at all. There are just a lot of different kinds of linguists, you know. Alexis Manaster Ramer 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 00:06:05 EDT From: "Ellen F. Prince" Subject: languages and dialects In reply to Manaster Ramer's and Slomanson's nit-picking with the criterion of mutual intelligibility for distinguishing dialects from languages, I think they missed my point. It was not that this provides a neat algorithm for deciding -- and I thought I would avoid the tedious discussions by acknowledging that from the beginning. My point was simply that Glasser's claim that linguists consider the dialect/language issue to be purely political was mistaken. If linguists consider the distinction to be theoretically relevant at all, it is on the basis of a linguistic criterion, not a political one. As for counting Birnbaum and M. Weinreich among this set of linguists, please note that I have been using the present tense. I have been talking about linguists in 1997, individuals working today in a field called 'linguistics' and who consider themselves linguists and who are considered linguists by other linguists. Sorry for not having made this little usage quirk of mine explicit... Ellen Prince 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:59:57 +0200 (MESZ) From: Ruben Frankenstein Subject: davenen Sema Chaimovitz Menora asked about the etimology of "davanen". Here is my entry in this respect given in the last H-Judaic Digest: Larry Laufman asks for the etymology of the yiddish verb "DAVENEN". 1) Salcia Landmann proposes the hebrew word "Da`avon" (=sorrow) 2) Ignaz Bernstein proposes the english word "dawn" since the main prayer is at this time of the day; 3) Immanuel Olsvanger proposes the middle-low-german verb "daven" or "doven" (=to make a noise, twittering, warbling) 4) the best etymology seems to me the one also given by Olsvanger: from the hebrew word "daf" (= leaf, page) and the double ending suits the hebrew verb "le-dafdef" - to leaf, to turn the pages, here in the meaning of turning the pages of the prayer-book. SHANA TOVA HaTaShNacH (5758), ShNaT cHaTaN ve-NeTacH NacHaT! Ruben Frankenstein Freiburg ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 7.072 Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html