Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.183 April 8, 1998 1) Introduction (Victoria Wong) 2) "eyf" (Michoel Ronn) 3) oyf, gloyb, etc. (Bob Poe) 4) "af", "olef", etc. (Feygl Infeld Glezer) 5) 'oyf' or 'af' (Chana Mlotek) 6) Afn shvel, kurve (Shaya Mitelman) 7) transliterated dictionary (Lee Dembart) 8) Transliterated Dictionary (Phil (Faivel) Halpern) 9) "fowlup" (Mikhl Herzog) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:48:46 -0900 From: vwong@punahou.edu (Victoria Wong) Subject: Introduction Hi, all. I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm Victoria, I am seventeen years old, and I live in Hawaii. I know no Yiddish whatsoever, except for "shlemiel" and "shlemazl" from the television show, Laverne and Shirley. =) I decided to join this mailing list to hopefully pick up a few more words of Yiddish. Well, that's about it. Bye! Victoria Wong 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 05:24:45 EDT From: chromelion@juno.com (Michoel Ronn) Subject: "eyf" I beg to differ with David Braun's observations regarding the Libavitcher Rebbe. Anyone can purchase videos or cassette tapes of the Libavitcher Rebbe's sikhes and clearly hear him say "af" and not "eyf." In addition, I know many White Russian Jews (from deep White Russia) and none that I know has ever said "eyf," except sometimes in reading printed text or singing a Yiddish song. The converb used by such White Russians is "uf." Yours Truly, Michoel Ronn 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:51:09 -0400 From: poe@ekbos.com (Bob Poe) Subject: oyf, gloyb, etc. In the light of the recent postings about regional pronunciations, I am trying to classify my mother's dialectal affiliations. Perhaps it would be easier to do this geographically, but I am unable to locate her native village on any map of Ukraine, partly because the village no longer exists! (It was called Olaskov and was destroyed in WW II.) She also lived for a while in Golta, which (I am told) does still exist, but has been incorporated into a larger city, whose name I don't know. I believe these villages were about halfway between Kiev and Odessa, but I don't really know. She also lived briefly in Odessa before her family emigrated (i.e., escaped). At any rate, she pronounced the preposition "oyf" as _af_. Well, my memory may not be perfect here: she also said _tote_, _mome_, so maybe she said _of_. (I tended to filter out the distinction between _o_ and _a_.) Anyway, I believe this is consistent with southern Ukraine. ("U" was pronounced _i_, "ey" was _ey_, "ay" was _a:_, "o:" was _u:_, etc.) I dimly recall that the verb complement was pronounced _if_, which according to Mikhl Herzog, would put her in Volhynia. But that seems too far north. By the way, would compounds like "aroyf", "tsunoyf", etc., follow the same pattern? I also remember her pronunciation of "gloyb" as _glob_. Perhaps that's even more geographically restricted. She also sometimes pronounced "oykh" as _ekh_ (not _eykh_), which I haven't seen mentioned as a possible variant. Another oddity was that she seemed to know the pronoun "men" only in the abbreviated form "me" and only as the subject of a verb. Does this provide enough data to triangulate her birthplace? I don't have ready access to linguistic maps. Bob Poe 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:50:31 -0400 From: yiddish1@juno.com (Feigl I Glaser) Subject: "AF", "OLEF", "TOTO/MOMO' UN ANDERE BLIMELEKH Nu, and if "AFN SHVEL" was founded by litvakes, do we have to continue writing in transliteration "afn" (masculine gender) and force that pronunciation and FARGRAYZTN YIDDISH on the young speakers? OYF, OYFN and OYF DER is found in several dialects and in learned Yiddish. Max Weinreich was a linguist, but also a "litvak". Neither he, nor his son Uriel were G-ds and Uriel admitted that he was struggling with the gender (As did all northeastern Jews). Since they both contributed a lot to the Yiddish language, we will forgive them for their "AMERATSISHE" verter tsu rufn di abituryentn fun di Yidish veltlekhe TSISHO, TSEBEKA, ARBETER RING, FARBAND un andere togshuln un ovntsuln in Poyln, di Fareynikte Shtatn, Kanade, Argentine, Meksike un andere lender, vi oykh di kultur tuer, aktive organizatsye-mitglider fun farsheydene kultur organizatsyes un politishe parteyen, der Real Gimnazye in Vilne "ameratsim". S'iz vi tsu rufn di graduantn fun Oxford un Cambridge" illiterate" un haltn di Cockneys far a bayshpil oyf redn a gutn English". Derloybt mir do tsu gebn a bayshpil fun vos gevise vun aykh rufn "gutn, reyeln, laytishn Yiddish un mir di shiler fun di Yidish veltlekhe shuln hobn gerufn "gasn-Yidish": "Ekh bin fun ketsko me. Maan tato/mamo hobn gehandlt mit veldo/feldo." "Iekh bin a shayn maydl, sue (s'iz vor; emes)?" Gets me a kilo farin in a kilo hartn tsiker. Ets kent me glaybn, morgn vet mo enk upgeybn s'gantso gelt." "Iokh bin aVarshivo. Vus darft ier epes sheltn in zugn a kilo far ihn? a Kilo far aakh, nisht far mio." "Toto/Momo, de kots est di lotkes." "Ikh hob ufgeheybn di kotshere un lopete un arufgeshtelt afn pripetshok!" Ikh hob geefnt di Tshir, aruf af a benkl, arayngedreyt a birne un arufgeton a shirme. A teyl fun a lidl gezungen fun Pesele Garber in Frankraykh: K'stey do inem gesele, ikh vart un ikh vart, Un du vist nit aropgeyn, vos binstu azey ayngespart? Vi a telegrafitsne slup stey ikh, seyn tsvey-dray so, Di fis zaynen mir gesvolun, keyn keyakh iz nito. Vi lang vel ikh steyn do in gas? Ikh fil az fun svakhkeyt ver ikh blas. To kum arop mayn Dveyre Dvoskele, Mit dayn seyninker printsoskele, Dayn Ponum iz dokh vi tsuker blaykh, Ikh lib dikh un du libst mikh eykh! To kum arop mayn seyn printsesele, Dayn kavalir vart Uf dir in o gesele, To kum arop, mir veln geyn spetsirun, Ikh vel dikh firun unterun hant - elegant. A Lodzher lidl: In deym shteytolo Pitshipoy Zenen de dekhelekh badekt mit shtroy, Falt a reygndul, falt a shnay; Voynen dortn skhaynestes tsvay. S'hot di ki? Mot di ki! S'hot zo? Mot zo! Abi sot so rift mo zay! Ikh muz itst farendikn, vayl ikh darf geyn koyfn nokh a por zakhn oyf yontev Iz hot ale a freylekhn, gezuntn Peysekh! Ayer, Feygl Infeld Glezer 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:19:05 EDT From: EMlotek Subject: 'oyf' or 'af' In Defense of "Oyf" in Transliteration The controversy over "oyf" and "af" in transliteration has come up again, and I'd like to lend support for the use of the former by citing positions of some leading scholars. First - about Yiddish speakers in this country: "Oyf' was not only used in the secular schools, like the Sholem Aleichem and Workmen's Circle schools that I attended, but Jean Jofen, the author of"Yiddish for Beginners" (l960) who was of orthodox denomination also used 'oyf'. Yiddish printed music almost always used transliterated texts beneath the notes:and there we find that theater sheet music used 'oif' [oyf] as did Ruth Rubin, Sendrey, Idelsohn. The great Yiddish linguist Max Weinreich edited Y. L. Cahan's song collections with 'oyf'. Uriel Weinreich in his "Field of Yiddish" (I refer to the first two collections that I have in my home) uses only "oyf'.in dozens of examples. (in Vol .1 - Hrushovski, p. 222 'oyf di fayern', p. 228: 'oyf lebn un toyt", p. 238: 'oyf der grozbank', p. 245: 'oyf mentsh un khaye", p. 249: 'oyfn yam', 255: 'oyf di kletser', p. 260: 'oyf der erd', p. 260: 'oyfn shvel'), Uriel Weinreich's own bibliographies of translations of Sholem Aleichem and Peretz in this volume are likewise written in this form. In Vol. 2: Altbauer, p. 183: 'oyf dem hoykhn barg', Shmeruk, p. 283: 'oyfn mark'). In his Dictionary Uriel bracketed the word 'af' next to the word in Yiddish; however in his College Yiddish, p. 30, he wrote that the word is "usually pronounced AF." (which I interpret as not always, perhaps recommended). In the Max Weinreich History of the Yiddish Language, edited by Shlomo Noble and Shikl Fishman, the 'oyf' form is used. David Roskies used mostly 'oyf' in his last book "A Bridge pf Longing".. In Mordkhe Schaechter's edition of Tsunzer's songs 'oyf' however was changed to 'af'. And Shikl Fishman used 'af' exclusively in his "Never Say Die". It was stated on Mendele that 'af' predominated in Eastern Europe - certainly in Soviet Russia where the Yiddish spelling was changed to "alef fey" as in "Afn sprakhfront". While it is true that Beregovsky used 'af' (he also has 'oyf' in his earlier collection), Ginzburg and Marek (St. Petersburg) have both forms, Goldin, St. Petersburg: only 'oyf'. Romania (Sekulets): 'oyf', Poland - Mir Zingen: 'oyf'. (My husband, Yosl Mlotek, who comes from Poland also pronounces the word 'oyf' not 'af'.), Israel - Vinkovetsky-Leichter- Kovner Anthology: "oyf'. And I have consistently used 'oyf' in our song anthologies and papers, which I feel justified in doing, in conformity with the precedents set by such leading authorities, scholars, teachers and mentors. I feel that American usage is as valid as Soviet pronunciation. Chana Mlotek - vos zingt 'Oyfn pripetshik" shoyn fuftsik yor mit vuntshn oyf a freylekhn peysakh. 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:38:00 -0400 From: Serge Mitelman Subject: Afn shvel, kurve. Olef. Afn shvel. Threshold is clearly of feminine gender in spoken Southern Yiddish. The situation in Standard Yiddish is as follows: in Mordkhe Tsanin's "Fuler Yidish - Hebreisher verterbukh" (H.Leyvik-farlag, 1982), Rusish - yidisher verterbukh unter der redaktsiye fun Moyshe Shapiro, Elye Spivak un Moyshe Shulman (Moskve, Russkiy Yazyk, 1984) and based on the latter Kurtser yidish - rusisher verterbukh (tsunoyfshteler - Gennady Estraykh, tsveyte uflage, Moskve, farlag "Sovetskiy pisatel", 1990 - baylage tsu "Sovetish heymland", num.8, 1990) shvel is feminine: DI SHVEL, AF DER SHVEL. However, Modern eynglish - idish, idish - eynglish verterbukh fun Uriel Vaynraykh (YIVO, NY, 1990), - in general somewhat skewed towards the Northern Yiddish dialect, - gives both DI/DER SHVEL. Afn shvel, therefore, may be not simply a dialectal variant ("litvish"), as Kalman Weiser (07.177.6) suggests, but quite a norm in the past. After all, Froim Auerbakh (1892, Belts, Besaraber guberniye - 1973, Petach-Tiqva) named his poetical debut in 1915 - "Oyfn Shvel". Beys. Moshe Taube (07.181.9) noted a conspicuous absence of anything resembling kurva (or kurova) in the Old Church Slavonic lexical corpus. I'd like to add something to that effect. If proto-Slavic or (even more so) Old Church Slavonic origin of the word kurva to be accepted, one can expect to find it in any modern Slavic language (especially considering how little, if at all, the invective lexicon has changed in those languages over ages). This is not the case with Russian, though. Kurva is distinctly of Southern Russian origin (Malorossiya), with a shade of "foreignness" (Ukrainian?) elsewhere in Russia, whereas literary language more or less reflects the Northern dialect. It may be interesting to know what non-Slavic (Romanian and Hungarian) linguists think of its etymology. Shaya Mitelman. 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:57:58 EDT From: Dembart Subject: transliterated dictionary Freydl Cielak (07.180) asks for recommendations for a Yiddish-English/English- Yiddish transliterated dictionary. I have one called "The Yiddish Dictionary Sourcebook: A Transliterated Guide to the Yiddish Language" by Herman Galvin and Stan Tamarkin (Ktav Publishing, Hoboken, 1986). It is less comprehensive than an unabridged dictionary, but it does have more than 8,000 entries--words, popular expressions, idioms, and proverbs. In the User's Note, the authors say, "Our work is unique, for nowhere can one find such an extensive listing of *transliterated* Yiddish. We have compiled a list of common words and expressions that includes (1) the English transliterations of the Yiddish; (2) the English equivalents of the Yiddish entries; (3) the phonetic renderings of the Yiddish pronunciation; and (4) the spelling of each entry in Yiddish using the appropriate Hebrew characters." Yiddish translations of English words are spelled in the Roman alphabet, and you can look up the meaning of Yiddish words in their transliterated form. Not bad. And much more comprehensive than Gross' "English-Yiddish/Yiddish- English Dictionary," which has only 4,000 entries. Having said this, let me add that I tend to agree with Sylvia Schildt, who writes (07.182) that if you're learning Yiddish, you ought to learn the Yiddish alphabet, which is, after all, not the impossible dream. But for those who don't agree, the Galvin-Tamarkin transliterated dictionary is a good one. And regardless of what you think about transliterated dictionaries, a zisn pesakh to all. Lee Dembart in San Francisco 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:00:34 -0400 From: phil Subject: Transliterated Dictionary A mendelayner recently asked for info re: competent eng/yid, yid/eng transliterated dictionaries. "A Yiddish Dictionary in Transliteration" by Harry Coldoff was published in Canada by Proclaim Publications Inc. The editor, Richard Bassett, is my yiddish teacher. A healthy Pesach to all. Phil (Faivel) Halpern Toronto 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:02:48 -0400 From: "Mikhl Herzog" Subject: "fowlup" Concerning my posting in Vol 07.182: 1. In paragraph 1, the intention was "the Belorus-Northern Ukraine BORDER AREA and the Polish-Lithuanian border area _oder_/_brider_". 2. At the end of paragraph 2, the words "emerged before SY _hi:n_ 'hen'" should have been deleted. Sorry for the fowl-up. Mikhl Herzog ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.183 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html