Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 08.011 June 9, 1998 1) Swiss Yiddish and Swiss German (A Manaster Ramer) 2) Jewish wars (Mechl Zlotowski) 3) Source of Misinformation about Yiddish etc (John Biskupski) 4) Questions about kissing (A Manaster Ramer) 5) Nokh mer 'shtaygn' (Mendy Fliegler) 6) anekdotn fun komishe oder rirndike intsidentn (Sure-Rukhl Schaechter) 7) lists of Yiddish names (David Sherman) 8) Yiddish names (Lisa Duhl) 9) meire (Yosef Gilboa) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:57:53 -0400 (EDT) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: Swiss Yiddish and Swiss German Velvl Wincour asks me to clarify what I said and to account for the impression he says he once had that Swiss German sounded like Odessa Yiddish. I think I can account for this perception by pointing out that, in general, people have a some perhaps innate way of seizing on one or a small number of features of a language or dialect and treating it as characteristic. For example, people who have never heard Polish before and have no learned stereotypes about it (e.g., Indians) immediately seize on the supposed frequency of 'ch' and 'sh' sounds in Polish with such regularity that this cannot be an accident. And amazingly enough this seems to be what we Poles (I happen to be Polish) think too at some level, because the sentence which we like to taunt foreigners by asking them to repeat it, knowing they cannot is: W Szczebrzeszynie chsza,szcz brzmi w trzcinie, where all the the 'cz', 'sz', 'rz', and even 'ci' are 'ch'/'sh' kinds of sounds! Moreover, people whose languages lack nasal vowels and especially nasal diphthongs (unlike most Indian languages) often report that Polish sounds like Portuegese presumably because they hear the nasal diphthongs as highly characteristic. All this is a poorly studied subject incidentally. In fact, I only know of one serious study. The problem of course is that you have to exclude people who have learned preconceptions, e.g., most Americans have heard that German is 'guttural' and so American perceptions of German have to be treated with caution. The best thing is to have people listen to samples of languages they have never heard about and not even tell them what languages they are! Having said this by way of preliminaries, I think there are two factors here. One is that Yiddish like Swiss German has rather distinctly "guttural" ways of pronouncing the sound written as 'ch' in German and as 'kh' in transliterations of Yiddish, much more "guttural" (I am not going to worry about what this means precisely here) than Standard German. I think this is what Velvl may have subconsciously seized on, because I cannot think of anything else that Swiss German and the kind of Yiddish Velvl is talking about (Yiddish of Odessa, not Swiss Yiddish!) have in common. The other factor (and I apologize in advance to those who might be offended) is a set of rather widespread feelings and myths about Yiddish in relation to other languages, such as the need to find that Yiddish is as different as possible from the German of Germany (because of the terrible associations of not so distant past) with the correlated tendency to exaggerate the similarity to OTHER Germanic languages, which are not associated with the indelible memory of what Hitler, Goebbels, and so on sounded like. My mother, for example, who speaks Yiddish and recently learned a fair amount of Dutch, would exaggerate the similarities of Dutch and Yiddish, which in reality are much less similar and much less closely related than Yiddish is to German. A special manifestation of this second factor is that throughout Europe there are still people who express their feelings about Germany and its past by pretending not to understand German. This is a staple theme to this day in Dutch literature, as is the somewhat contradictory theme of UNDESTANDING German alright but steering people who speak in the wrong directions (e.g., telling them to turn left instead of right, etc.). Since Swiss German is about as close (or distant) to Yiddish as to German, and since in addition Standard German is taught in all Swiss German areas, is the language of the radio, newspapers, etc., it is inconceivable that any Swiss German would undertsnad Yiddish and not German. But it is not inconceivable for some Swiss Germans at some times to pretend this-- and this is what I believe happened to the Mendelist (I am sorry I deleted the posting before noting his name) who says he could communicate with a Swiss German in Yiddish but not in German. However, all this has nothing to do with Swiss Yiddish, which almost no Swiss Christian has ever heard, and which is in some superficial respects like Swiss German but at a deeper level quite different from it (and indeed arrived in Switzerland from somewhere in SW Germany very recently). My earlier postings were about Swiss Yiddish, and so were not at all relevant to the question of why someone might perceived EASTERN EUROPEAN Yiddish to be like Swiss German in some way. I hope, though, to have answered the latter question now. A Manaster Ramer 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:02:50 -0400 From: Michel ZLOTOWSKI Subject: Jewish wars Re: Leeson vs Neugroschel in [08.009]. Smells of powder. But to be absolutely accurate, the libretto of "Les Contes d'Hoffmann" was by Jules Barbier and Michel Carre (that is "e" with an accute accent, in case accents don't come through). As to Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halevy (with a "y"), apart from Bizet's "Carmen", they did work also for Offenbach ("La Belle Helene", "La Perichole"). Abi gezind Mechl ZLOTOWSKI fin Pariz. 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:40:09 EDT From: PolTexCW@aol.com Subject: Source of Misinformation about Yiddish etc A. M. Ramer wrote: "I have been killing time reading Rosten's books on Yiddish and Yinglish, and I keep coming across some almost incredible blunders, such as the idea that mat 'checkmate' is of German (rather than Arabic) origin." It is ultimately of Persian origin. John Biskupski 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:11:20 -0400 (EDT) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: Questions about kissing I have two questions, one of which IS about Yiddish, the other not so much(:-). The first is this: in some Western European dialects of Yiddish, a girl who is too free with her favors is called a mezuze (for the obvious reason that a mezuze is something which every Tom, Dick, and Harry gets to kiss), and what I would like to know if this usage is known in Eastern European Yiddish. The second question is whether in kissing the mezuze, one first touches the fingers to the lips and then the to the mezuze, or rather first touch the mezuze and then the lips. I know the second question is nothing to do with Yiddish per se but I would really appreciate any information (which can be sent to me privately). A Manaster Ramer 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:16:16 -0100 From: emms2@juno.com (marilyn j fliegler) Subject: Nokh mer 'shtaygn'... Khevre Mendlyaner, zogt mir tsi dus vort 'shteygn' iz der zelber vus men banitst in di vertlakh: 1. 'Nisht geshtoygn, nisht gefloygn' (lit. : it hasn't _risen_, it hasn't flown....) 2. 'Er/Zi git zikh a shteyger....' (comparison; example...?) Mendy Fliegler. 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:48:27 EDT From: Sure-Rukhl Schaechter (ejdel@mailexcite.com) Subject: anekdotn fun komishe oder rirndike intsidentn Tayere Khaverim, Ikh bin letstns gevorn a mitarbeter in Forverts, un ikh vil onheybn a rubrik vu leyners shikn arayn anekdotn fun komishe oder rirndike intsidentn vos zey hobn aleyn gehat oder hobn gehert fun a tsveytn; enlekh tsum "Metropolitan Diary" funem New York Times, nor af yidish, farshteyt zikh. S'ken zan epes vus iz geshen oder letstns oder afile mit etlekhe yor tsurik--af der gas, bay der arbet, in "shul", in krom, afn oytobus... Shikt mir af dem blits-post adres: ejdel@mailexcite.com. A dank, Sure-Rukhl Schaechter 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:21:48 -0400 From: "David M. Sherman" Subject: lists of Yiddish names In response to Lori's question: Chabad Lubavitch of Southern Ontario published a small book in 1986 called "Yiddishe Nachas: A Guide to Jewish Family Life". It may have been republished since, and may also be published by or available from other Lubavitch centres. I have it here; the last portion of the book has a list of Hebrew and Yiddish names. Other Jewish name books may also include Yiddish names. Lori, if you can't find a similar publication, send me a fax number and I'll fax you the list. (It doesn't have meanings, but it does indicate whether the source of the name is biblical, talmudic, Yiddish or Hebrew/Israeli.) Zol zayn in a mazldike sho! (pu, pu, pu :-) David Sherman Toronto 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:47:38 -0700 From: Lisa Duhl Subject: Yiddish names Lori (Lippitz) Chinitz asked about a list of Yiddish names. Harkavy's Yiddish English Hebrew Dictionary has such a list well hidden starting on page 525 of the edition reprinted in 1988 by YIVO. Transliterations are at the end of each entry. Mazltov! Lisa Duhl 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 12:15:36 -0700 From: AJ Gilboa Subject: meire I have had the opportunity to discuss this with Professor Yosef Bar-El of Bar Ilan University. He informs me that Harkavy has dealt with this word. According to Harkavy 'meire' in the sense of a portion of dough is found in various modifications in several Slavic languages, including Lithuanian and Russian. A well-educated Russian (Ukrainian, actually), whom I asked, did not recognize this word so perhaps it is an archaic usage. Incidentally, Bar El is the author of a learned article "Vi alt is Yentl?" tracing the appearance and the source of Yente and Yachne in Yiddish. Gentilla and Hyacinta seem to be well established as the original forms of these two names. Yosef Gilboa [Moderator's note: It is strange that Yosef Gilboa's "Russian/Ukrainian" informant did not recognize the word. _Mera_ in Russian (_mira_ in Ukrainian) is not at all archaic. One of the meanings is that of a unit of volume, that contains 1 pud (40 Russian or 36 British pounds). It's a lot of motses! i.v.] ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 08.011 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html