Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 08.150 May 4, 1999 1) quasi Middle High German (Marion Aptroot) 2) Judendeutsch -- Western Yiddish? (Harold L. Orbach) 3) Strasbourg (Harry Krane) 4) Seminar in Strasbourg (Esteban Avey) 5) Letter from Strassbourg (Leo Secunda) 6) dates (Sheva Tsuker) 7) Khsidishe mayses (Yankev Lewis) 8) lekakh, arbes (Gabriella Safran) 9) kalte schul (Lillian Leavitt) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: aptroot@phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de (Marion Aptroot) Subject: quasi Middle High German I would like to thank Vulf Plotkin (Vol. 08.148) for his contribution to the discussion, but the question of "quasi Middle High German" is not one of language origins but one of editing practices. More specifically, it is a question concerning the use of transcription. For the transcription of Modern Yiddish most of us use the YIVO system, even though we know full well that the klal-aroysreyd is usually far removed from the dialect in which a text was written. Nobody will be surprised to find out that this standardized form of Eastern Yiddish is not suitable for Old and Middle Yiddish texts. Of course one can decide to do without transcription, and that is what we usually do since most texts are only available in the form of manuscripts or period editions, usually via microfiche. In the case of text editions without transcription, an introduction on the phonology of the text in question would be helpful since texts are written in different dialects and the orthography is full of variants and apparent inconsistencies which are often hard to interpret. A transcription also fulfills this purpose and can be used as an aide for reading a text in the original, which is a great service to students and scholars of Yiddish. It has the added advantage of making the text available to those who are interested but don't have the opportunity to study Middle Yiddish language and literature. I agree with Jerold Frakes that transcription of older Yiddish texts should not adapt the text to the norms set for standardized Middle High German (or to other external norms, including 20th century klal-yidish). I also believe that the transcription of the text under discussion, _Pariz un Vyene_, only interprets those elements open to interpretation (mainly the pronunciation of vowels) and clearly indicates where this is the case. It does so based on all the information which can be gleaned from the text itself and a thorough knowledge of Yiddish phonology. This is a transcription which is adapted to the text and not the other way round. Of course there are always fine points of interpretation on which opinions will differ. Personally, I would not read a whole text in transcription, but I appreciate and eagerly profit from the fact that someone else has put a lot of work in tackling the puzzle that nearly every text is and lets me, the reader, share the results. Since the transcription system for Older Yiddish texts was developed in Germany, this system is closer to current German orthography than the YIVO system, which was devised for speakers of English. I can't see what the connection to Middle High German with relation to this text is, other than that the text itself brings to mind words and expressions which also occur in MHG, and some of the footnotes refer to it -- just like others refer to Italian, Hebrew and modern Yiddish. Marion Aptroot 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:14:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold L Orbach Subject: Judendeutsch -- Western Yiddish? Apropos various recent postings regarding Yiddish and German, the April 12th New Yorker has a story on the Oxford Scottish historian, Niall Ferguson -- a Thatcher-type conservative who has published a new book blaming England in large measure for WWI. Earlier he did a history of the Rothschilds and of it the article says: "...much of the material was in Judendeutsch, an archaic form of German written in Hebrew script, which the Rothschilds used to encode their missives." Ferguson hired someone to translate this material rather than having to learn the unknown (to him) alphabet. Is this a somewhat back-handed way of describing Western Yiddish? And denying Yiddish "status" as a language? That is, did the Rothschilds use Yiddish? Harold L. Orbach Manhattan, KS 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Krane Subject: Strasbourg To Elanor Reiter and her wonderful post on her visit to Strasbourg in the Alsace: It did my heart good to read of the actions of the people, especially of Colmar, in saving Torahs and their activities on behalf of Jews.I was also overjoyed at the resurgence of Judaism and Yiddish in that area. Fifty four years ago I fought to regain Colmar with the French First Army, being attached to it in my 75th Division, 290th Regimental Combat Team's many battles in Europe.. We fought to liberate the city and the surrounding area. The beautifully written post brought back memories long surpressed. Now I am pleased that the hard fought battles freed a city where my people are respected. When I read the post to my wife, especially when Avrom recited Modeh Ani, a prayer she has said every morning since her very early childhood. It brought tears to her eyes. It was taught to her by her beloved Grandfather who brought her up after the death of her father when she was 8. She too considers it a sort of daily Kaddish for both of them. I am a member of the Association "Rhin & Danube" Anciens De La Premiere Armee Francais, U.S. Section, commemorating the liberation of Colmar and Alsace and honoring the men who fought and died there.. Thank you, Ms. Reiter, for your post and I wish you would report to us again on your next visit overseas. Harry Krane 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:50:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Saavey@ra.rockwell.com Subject: Seminar in Strasbourg A sheynem dank, Elanor J. Reiter, far eyre dertseylung funm strasbourg-seminar. Ikh bin nor a goy, ober ikh hob gefunen khavra Elanors bashraybung vegn di yidn in alsas zeyer varem un interesant. A yid zol ikh zayn! A brokhe. Esteban Avey Cleveland, Ohio 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:13:44 -0400 (EDT) From: SECUNDASL@aol.com Subject: Letter from Strassbourg I found the letter very interesting. I lived in Alsace just before the war (1938). I stayed near Moulhouse.I did not find anyone who could speak Yiddish. In the later part of th 19th century until the end of WWI Alsace was part of Germany (Prussia). This was the result of of the Prussian Franco war. German was spoken in may places but French was spoken by most. There is also a local dialect a combination of Germna and French. Also many believe that Yiddish had its start in Alsace or in the Rhineland. Like in most German Jewish community the language of the ghetto (a form of Yiddish) dispited by most was deminishing by the latter part of 19th century it had disaapeared among German Jews. I was therefore not surprised when I found thatno one spoke Yiddish in the part of Alsace where I lived. After WWII Eastern Eurpean Jews could not return to the places where they had lived. They stayed in Western Europe and settled there. I am therefore somewhat suspicious that the Strassbourg Jews speak Yiddish. I of course cannot refute what Ida and Yosef Schwartz experienced.It would be interesting to know what kind of Yiddish it was. This would give us a clue to the origin of this Yiddish. It is indeed a pleasure to see Yiddish alive and well in Strassbourg. A sheynem dank Leo Secunda 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:59:38 -0400 (EDT) From: SCZUCKER@aol.com Subject: dates Tayere Khaveyrim-Mendelyaner, Ikh hob etlekhe kashes vegn ortografie un dem Yidishn luekh vos hobn tsu ton mit vi me shraybt gevise zakhn af Yidish (nit af Hebreyish). Ikh bet az di yekhide-sgule vos kenen zikh a bisl oys af dem, un nor di yekhide-sgule, zoln entfern. Ikh dank aykh in foroys. Ikh veys nit oyb di inyonim zaynen interesant far gants Mendele, undzer shames ken bashlisn. Ir kent mir entfern direkt sczucker@aol.com un oykh af dem algemeynem Mendele-adres. Ot zayen di kashes: 1. In a date, tog un khoydesh, nitst men di forem mit tsi on dem Dogesh? Lemoshl Kof"Zayin oder Khof"Zayin Nisn Vos tut men mit Beys/Veys? Yud"Beys oder Yud"Veys Nisn Kof (efsher Khof) "Beyz oder Kof"Veyz Tishre Redt men dos aroys nor Kof"Beyz/Veyz oder iz oykh do a forem mit di teg fun khoydesh aroysgeredt KAB oder KAV? Iz miglekh me zol zogn KOF"BEYS ober zogn KAV oyb me makht fun dem a "vort"? 2. Ven me hot an Alef in a date, iz es mit oder on a pasekh? Alef (on Pasekh) Sivn oder Alef (mit Pasekh) Sivn Oder Alef (on Pasekh) oder Oder Alef (mit Pasekh) 3. Di oysyes BEYS/VEYZ, PEY/FEY, TOF/SOF bam sof fun a vort oder traf bay yorn? SHNAS TASHMA"B oder TASHMAV TARAP oder TARAF oder TARAF (Langer Fey) 4. Ven me hot a mem, nun, pey/fey, tsadik, bam sof nitst men di shlosforem? TARAP oder TARAF oder TARAF ( Langer Fey) TASHAM oder TASHAM (Langer Mem) In di Takones fun Yidishn Oysleyg, 1941 shteyt: 25. "Oyb royshe-teyvesn af khof, mem, nun, fey, tsadik zaynen gevorn feste verter, shtelt men di shlosform fun di dozike oysyes." Meynt ir az dos iz khal af azelkhe faln? Iz TARAF a "vort" un darf men derfar nitsn dem Langn Fey? 5. Darf men nitsn dem apostrof mit dates? ALEF NISN oder ALEF' NISN? Zaynen beyde korekt? 6. Darf men nitsn di girsayim mit dates? KOF"DALET ODER oder KOFDALET ODER? TASHMA"D oder TASHMAD? Zaynen beyde korekt? A SHEYNEM DANK. Ayer Sheva Tsuker 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:15:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Enkin * Lewis Subject: Khsidishe mayses I would like to be in touch with anyone on the list who is involved (or interested) in the study of Hasidic tales, or in related areas: Hasidism in general, Yiddish folk tales or the like. I am a PhD student at the University of Toronto researching Hasidic stories. On May 15 I am scheduled to present a paper, "The Great Holy Woman Malka of Belz: Women as Protagonists and Narrators in Hasidic Tales", at the UCCB Symposium on Storytelling in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. This fall, I will be giving a lecture on my research in New York City, as a research fellow of the YIVO institute. In my research at YIVO I hope to learn something about differences between Yiddish and Hebrew versions of published Hasidic tales, and about the relationship between the oral versions of stories recorded by folklore collectors and the versions found in print. Although my main focus will likely be on analyzing the content of Hasidic tales published before the first world war, in the light of issues in halakhah and religion, I'm interested in all facets of the field: the publication and reception history of books of tales, the historicity or lack of it of stories about the Rebbes, the role of storytelling and books of stories in the Chassidishe world today, etc. I'd be delighted to hear from anyone with a shared interest, on the list or privately (jcjlewis@chass.utoronto.ca). Sh'koyekh, Yankev Lewis 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:58:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriella Safran Subject: lekakh, arbes Someone recently asked me about two seemingly Yiddish words, both used in Kazin's _A Walker in the City_. Both refer to food: "a great brown nutcake filled with almonds, the traditional _lekakh_," and "Arbes! Heyse gute arbes!" sold on the street. What would be a good way to define these words? Thanks! Gabriella Safran Stanford, CA 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:53:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "dan" Subject: kalte schul re: the inquiry last month about the meaning of "kalte schul" I recently translated a chapter in a Yizkor book on Rukashuk, Lithuania. In this town, strangely enough for Misnagdish Lithuania, was a vibrant Khasidish community. However, because the khasidim here sent their sons to certain Yeshivas consistent with their philosophies, eg, Telz, and generally condoned higher learning, they were called "kalte Khasidim", i.e, cool heads, perhaps like the Talmudic Misnagdim. I am wondering if references to "kalte schulen" in the Ukraine and other parts of Russia don't refer to Misnagdish schuls, vs. Khasidish ones. Any authoritive voices on this??? Lillian Leavitt ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 08.150 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://metalab.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html