Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 1 no. 128 December 27, 1991 1) Vatnmakher (Mikhl Herzog) 2) Vatnmakher (Aren Abramson) 3) Ober vs Oder(David Sherman) 4) Query (David Sherman) [Mendele apologizes to all for the long delay between numbers. The VAX, loy aleikhem, was sick.] 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 11:51 EST From: ZOGUR@CUVMB Subject: Re: Mendele Vol 1.127 Bob Rothstein on vatnmaxer is pretty definitive. My message re the Prilucki interpretation seems to have gotten lost somewhere in Mendele. No! Aren Abramson: "yagati umatsati" or "az me zukht, gefint men". Actually, the credit belongs to Andrew Sunshine, former student of mine, colleague on the Yiddish Atlas project, most recent Columbia PhD in Yiddish linguistics. The only credit I claim is for having asked him. He remembered the following source: See YIDISHE FILOLOGYE (1924): 234. "Der Vatelmakher" (notes by the editor, Noyekh Prilucki. Mendele, in various places: "khapt aykh/im der vatelmakher". Other sources: "vatenmakher". A.A. Roback: "vatenmakher" and "baytlmakher" which he considers a euphemism for "tayvel". Prilucki's objection: There is no form "tayvelmakher". Prilucki's own hypothesis ("for lack of a convincing alternative"): "vatelmakher" is "mevatel-makher" (< Hebrew levatEl), i.e., "the devil, der nishtguter, the discrediter) with simplification of the unfamiliar initial cluster "mv-". Howzzat? 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 12:43:55 EST From: Aren Abramson Subject: Vatnmakher I am grateful to Bob Rothstein for his very interesting findings on possible origins of /vatnmakher/. I will pass these thoughts on to our local Yiddish- reading group late in January. Perhaps by then Mikhl Herzog will have something to add. By the way, Bob, I remember Judah A. Joffe well. We used to attend meetings of the old Linguistic Circle of New York together. He would often stop to chat with a few of us on Fifth Avenue afterwards. As for Ellen Prince's foray onto the field, it was fun to read, but she seems to have forgotten that the oath can be laid upon us folk as well as horses. Aren (Re: Mendele, Vol. 1.127) 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 91 13:48:24 EST From: dave@lsuc.on.CA Subject: ober vs. oder I have noticed in some older Yiddish speakers a mixing of "ober" (English "but") and "oder (English "or"). In one case I know, the speaker, when speaking in English, consistently uses "or" when she means "but", and I suspect (though I can't say for sure) that this is because of the ober/oder confusion in Yiddish. Can anyone comment on this? Is it widespread? 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 91 14:10:23 EST From: dave@lsuc.on.CA Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.125 Mikhl Herzog writes: > I'm still pursuing the vatnmaxer/vatemaxer... > Best guess to date: it's a folk etymology of > the sparrow grass variety. Of what, I don't know yet. Sparrow grass? What is this a reference to? ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol 1.128