Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 1 no. 132 January 5, 1992 1) Farshidene inyonim (Bob Goldberg) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 92 15:32:20 PST From: xidak!poseidon!bob@uunet.UU.NET Subject: tsurik "online" mit nisht kayn broyges For the past few months I've been involved in a work-related "crunch" and have not had time to read my MENDELE mail. Last night I caught up on my reading (Vol. 1 no. 88 to 130). Here are my comments on the past few months' discussions. Ellen Prince: Yes, now that you mention it, I heard both "nokh" and "nukh", and I never heard "zul" for "zol", etc. All of your examples are "right-on" as far as my recollections go. Could we be related? But seriously, now that my grandparents are gone, I'd like a reference on how to pronounce Yiddish as they did, mer uveynig. Is there such a thing? If not, have you thought about annotating Weinreich's dictionary? One lead I've heard is that people in the Yiddish theatre in NY used a similar dialect. Another is that you can sometimes tell from rhymes in songs and poetry, e.g., in the song "khanuke": khanuke, oy, khanuke, a yontif a sheyner a lustike, a freylikhe, nito nokh azoyner the author must have pronounced "sheyner" to rhyme with "azoyner" -- I would guess "azeyner", or maybe it was "shayner" and "azayner". [YIVO: "ay" is a long "i", "ey" is long "a", "oy" as in "oy vey"]. Mikhl Herzog: I admit to being put-off by your initial unsupported denial that the German "heiraten" has Yiddish origins, because you initially offered no evidence in support of your own negative assertion. With regard to the onus of proof in such matters: As a scientist, I am used to the idea that anyone who states a theory, positive OR negative, can (and should) be called upon to back it up. In logic, whether one asserts 'A' or 'not A', a proof is expected. There is a big difference between challenging an assertion and making one's own, negative assertion. Mikhl's negative assertion without evidence sounded to me as though an expert was telling the non-expert readers to keep quiet lest they be shouted down. Anyway, I was glad to see an alternative derivation in a later discussion (though it did not convince me). By the way, I take it as given that the German dictionary writers have a bias against citing a Yiddish origin of a German word. I believe that Webster's refused to acknowlege Yiddish-origin words in English as late as the 1949 edition (they cited Germanic origin). Modern Webster's acknowledges Yiddish as the "probable" origin. For examples, look up words beginning with "sch". So, Mikhl, what about the German "lashe" for the tongue of a shoe? If you assert that this word did not come into German from Yiddish-speaking shumakhers, what evidence do you have? If you could prove, for example, that the word was in Germanic languages before the Jews arrived in Germany, that would completely convice me. In regard to the discussion about gutteral "ayin": When I first learned the Hebrew alphabet, I didn't understand why an alphabet would have two silent letters--aleph and ayin. The explanation that made the most sense to me was that the ayin originally had a sound. The evidence for this is that Arabic still has a "gutteral" letter that has no Hebrew equivalent, and it is the initial letter in the name of the geographic region called "Gaza" in English (note the "G") and "aza" in Hebrew (beginning with an ayin). I have heard an Egyptian Jew pronounce it, and it sounds like he's got something stuck in his throat. Mikhl, you have my permission to tear this theory apart, but please, no flat denials. With regard to "bal mitzvah": My grandmother from "noy shtot", Poland (near Krakow) consistently said this, and spelled it either beys-lamed or beys-alef-lamed in Yiddish. I wondered about this also. In regard to words ending in ayin getting an English "y" ending -- I have always heard this from non-native speakers trying to insert Yiddish words into an English sentence. I never heard my grandparents (native speakers) use the "y" endings on any of these words. My parents (from Brooklyn) used the "y" ending on only two of the cited Yiddish words, and ONLY when the words were in an English sentence: "tushy" and "bubby". Tushy was usually applied to a child's anatomy, and was always "tukhas" in a Yiddish sentence. "tukhas" has got to be from the Hebrew, "takhas" (under). We've really hit bottom if we allow "kish mayn tushy" as Yiddish. Give me a break! And I never heard "tush" used in a Yiddish sentence either. "tush" always seemed like an adult version of the Anglicized "tushy", sort of like "piss" is the adult form of "pee", but in Yiddish it's "pish". [No, I'm not claiming that the English word "piss" derives from "pish".]. As for "bubby", this was always used similarly to "dear" or "honey" (my parents called me "Bobby, bubby" as a child), and never for the real "bobe" (we pronounce it "bube"). And in a Yiddish sentence, it was always "bubele". On the use of "bubele" as a genderless term of endearment: My bobe used to call me and my sister "tatele" and "mamele" all the time. She would mix the gender on these words, frequently calling me "mamele". When I was old enough to understand these words, I would correct her and tell her that I am a "tatele" because I'm a boy. But I always thought that the gender-mixing usage could explain how a man can be a "bubele". A random guess about gender-mixing is that it was superstitious -- "kayn ayin ha ra". If you call your young grandson "mamele", the evil eye will be confused, and this counteracts the fact that you're anticipating the fine day that he'll be a father, which might tempt the evil eye to prevent this outcome. So call him a dear little mother, and send the evil eye on a wild goose chase! And this brings up my final comment in this now rather long message: Use of "kayn" without "nisht". Obviously the expression "kayn ayin ha ra" (no evil eye) (pronounced "kayn-e hora" or "ken-e hara") is a counter-example to the claim that "kayn" is never used by itself. ... Bob Goldberg ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol 1.132