Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 1 no. 143 January 22, 1992 1) Visn un kenen (Mark H. David) 2) Yankev un manse (Moishe-Nussen Eytan) 3) Eyn hore (Raphael Finkel) 4) Zuruck! (Yankel Kessler) 5) Bird watching (Raphael Finkel) 6) Bird Watching (Hershel Basser) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 11:27:51 EST From: gensym!mhd@harvard.harvard.edu Subject: visn v. kenen & lebm v. voinen I've been noticing in talking to people who came in the last few years from the former USSR to Boston that they "confuse" visn (to know a fact) and kenen (to know, as in to be aquainted with, and also to know a language). The same thing happens with lebm (to live, as in to be alive) and voinen (to live, as in to dwell). This problem is encountered frequently among native English speakers learning Yiddish (or German) because of the fact that "to know" corresponds to both visn and kenen, and that "to live" corresponds to both lebm and voinen. I have found cases of this among former residents of Odessa, Kishinev (area), Kiev, Leningrad, and Sverdlovsk. They are all native speakers of and, in most cases, literate in Yiddish. In all cases, however, they are most fluent in and literate in Russian. Generally, these people are over 60 and trying very hard to learn English, including many formal courses, but alas they don't know English very well. So, I would be surprised if it turned out that they learned it well enough to make the same mistakes a native English speaker would make. I don't know if native Russian speakers make these same mistakes learning German. Does anyone else know? Has anyone else heard this, or heard of this? What is the best explanation for it? Mark H. David 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jan 92 15:01:02 GMT From: me@SUZUKA.U-STRASBG.FR Subject: RE: "yankev, manse" In mendele #1.138 'hayim (_not_ khayim, in my notation) writes: (Vi zogt men "red herring" oyf yidish?) Although my Rebbe in linguistics, viz. Zelig Harris, says that there are no unacceptable discourses in language -- hence that everything (expressible) can be expressed in every language -- there are more or less concise ways of doing it. More particularly, some languages have _one_ word for a notion that would demand many more in another. Not being a native speaker of English (nor, for that matter, of Yidish) I can only guess at the meaning of "red herring" -- pretty obvious I would say. But as far as my folk-expertise (to mimic the oft-cited folk-etymology) goes, I would say there is no _one_ word for this in Yidish (or even, as far as I know, in Hebrew, Hungarian or French -- though for the latter Harrap's gives 'diversion', which seems to me not quite correct). Let us beware of trying to find equivalents in one language for another!! [That's where eg translators of Bashevis Singer fail badly, even though the author was supposed to have _contributed_ to the translation. But in this particular case I must 1. a shabes-goy; 2. a neshume yesaire; 3. nebekh; 4. a yurtsait; etc. etc. etc. Conversely, how do you say in Yidish: 1. rap music; 2. tagger; 3. junk-bonds; etc. etc. etc. Moishe-Nussen Eytan 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1992 14:34:52 EST From: Raphael Finkel Subject: eyn hore? A vilde batref: "keyn eyn hore" hot nit keyn "nit" vayl "eyn" hert zikh oys vi "eyn" vos meynt aleyn "nit" of loshn-koydesh. Gramatish iz dos nit, ober efshr? 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jan 92 17:49 PST From: KESSLER Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.140 Pardon my ignorance, but Prince Tamino, in the opening scene of Die Zauberflote, sings, when menaced by the dragon snake, Zuruck! Zuruck! Ich ben verloren!, Etc. German has that. Back off! Kessler 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1992 15:10:44 EST From: Raphael Finkel Subject: foyglen zikh Efshr bistu geforn zikh foyglen? Af oyfes vokh? Reshimen? 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1992 17:37:33 -0500 From: fishbane@epas.utoronto.CA Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.142 I once heard someone once tried to innovate loifshich for what we call a "snicker", neo-yiddishisms are to be scorned even by purists. Yiddish operates on a catch as can basis. thus for birdwatcher-- since I dont think it was common in europe for jews, the word was probably taken from the local vernacular. similarly here I suggest the natural route would be to borrow and not invent --"boyd-vutcher" sounds good to me. mein eydim der boid vutcher--! hershel basser ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol 1.43