Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 1 no. 209 April 7, 1992 1) Toward a new orthography (Zev Bar-Lev) 2) Query (Zev Hochberg) 3) Lakhn mit.. (David Hirsch) 4) Please and thanks (Dovid Braun) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 13:42:06 -0700 From: zbarlev@sciences.sdsu.edu Subject: RE:Mendele Vol 1.206 Thanks to all who have answered my questions, and even corrected some misconceptions that I was carrying around, like mixing up Eastern _vaan_ with Western _flaash_. Also, on the request for a transcription, and not knowing whether MENDELE has an official one, may I suggest: :::::_sh_ rather than _sch_ on grounds of simplicity, since _h_ is a handy non-diacritic substitute for the hook (hacVek, hachek) of phonetics; (Dutch _sch_ is completely different; wouldn't Dutch use _sj_ for _sh_?) :::::and maybe even _ch_, altho it is spelled in Yiddish as if _tsh_; :::::similarly either _zh_ (with diacritic H) or _zsh_ (as spelled), although both these are marginal enough that "mistakes" are unimportant; :::::main vowels are as in: mAma jEt skI nO gUru; :::::and _ay_ as in "Kaiser", and _ey_ as in "weight", which conform both to phonetics, and also to Yiddish spelling -- except where used to represent "non-standard" pronunciation; :::::there's no need to distinguish "shwa" from _e_, since position in the word does this, although perhaps a symbol like @ can be used if a need is felt to distinguish, or the full vowel could be marked with / for stress, e.g. _gezen_ or _g@zen_ or _geze/n_, if not _gezeyn_; vs. _geben_ or _geb@n_ or _ge/ben_ or _geyben_ OR _gebn_, of course. (There's no necessity for complete consistency; the simplest is best unless there's a need to emphasize something.) :::::_h_ should not be used except when pronounced, e.g. _handelt_ but not _zehn_ (a German-like spelling); BUT ...... can I sell people on _hh_ (double H) for the _ch_ of "Bach", e.g. _hhaver_, _hhapen_? I use this in Hebrew and a few other languages, and find it very convenient, e.g. not subject to any misunderstanding, even if one knows little of the language. _kh_ is not bad either (again with diacritic H), but _ch_ always leaves one wondering... This system can be used by people who don't read/write Yiddish, and avoids the Germanization of its spelling. It's mostly YIVO-style, too. (The five vowels of MAMA JET SKI NO GURU are mostly as found in just about any languages in the world except English.) Zev Bar-Lev 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 19:52 EDT From: Zev Hochberg Subject: Intro. and question Sholem Aleychem (a better way of saying hello then MENDELE Moikher-Seforim): This is my first submission to Mendele. My Yiddish is quite minimal (my parents used it for their "secret language") but my interest is high, so I hope to actively participate on the list. Does anyone know the etymology of "oysen veynik" (?) meaning "by heart"? Weinreich doesn't have it; a number of fluent speakers I asked know the expression, but not its literal meaning or etymology. A sheynem dank, Zev Hochberg 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 19:13 PDT From: "David Hirsch, Bibliographers Group" Subject: lakhn mit pyafkes After reading about "lakhn mit yascherkes", I remembered that my grandmother used to use a similar expression "Lakhn mit pyafkes", which I think means "laughing with leaches". Can anyone tell me the origin of this expression? David Hirsch ucla library 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 23:52:34 -0400 From: David Braun Subject: please 'Please' is: - kh'bet dikh/aykh - zay(t) azoy gut - zay(t) (zhe) moykhl Yes, the last one also means 'excuse me', but is used when we say in English 'please', with the understanding 'excuse/forgive me for troubling you'. zay(t) azoy gut when introducing the request (i.e., at the beginning of the sentence) is very often accompanied by un: zayt azoy gut un farmakht di tir. Of course there's the daytshmerizm _bite_, to which one answers (humoristically): bite iz a tokhter (>Heb. bita 'her daughter'). ------- Thanks, Bob Rothstein, for the translation of "the song". Interesting that this is a Ukrainian version, sung by a non-speaker of Ukrainian who had an elementary knowledge of Polish from school and White Russian/Polish (the dialect of where these two languages meet/met) from the street, who thought the song was in Polish, did not know that the White Russian language even existed, and exhibited traits of Ukrainian Yiddish in her mame-loshn. So a Slavic folksong, in its original language (more or less), travelled the same route as Yiddish-internal sound changes. Dovid Braun ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol 1.209 Submissions: mendele@vax1.trincoll.edu Business: nmiller@vax1.trincoll.edu Please sign your articles.