Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 3.155 December 4, 1993 1) Yiddish New Testament (Ellen Prince) 2) Word order again (Khaim Bochner) 3) Ferz/posuk (Marnen Laibow-Koser) 4) Book by Bettina Simon? (Bob King) 5) Rules, verb order, linguists (Neakh Zide) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri Dec 3 11:40:13 1993 From: "Ellen F. Prince" Subject: yiddish new testament first, thanks to shleyme axelrod for discreetly correcting my rendition of the title of the einspruch n.t., der brit khadoshe. second, bizarre as it may seem, the 'jews for jesus' and 'messianic jews' seem to think that there is STILL a public out there that can read the n.t. only in yiddish and that is a candidate for conversion. the edition i have can currently be had for the asking from the local 'messianic jews' establishment. go figure. ellen prince 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri Dec 3 15:46:06 1993 From: bochner@das.harvard.edu Subject: Word order again (sorry) Hal Berman writes: > My brother's comments about word order were based on > Weinreich because that is the rule. Weinreich does NOT agree with you. Please see page 122 of "College Yiddish", which I quoted in an ealier message. If you want to believe that neither Weinreich, nor Mark, nor Birnbaum, nor any of the linguists in this audience can tell the difference between natural speech and artificial literary pretensions, that's your right. But please do not misrepresent the opinions of those who disagree with you. With respect to consulting other speakers: this is of course the right thing to do. But it has be done with some sophistication. The meaning of this construction is such that it is rarely natural to use it just out of the blue. For instance, the last sentence on page 136 of "College Yiddish" is "Hobn es di tsvey brider gekoyft." Out of context that sounds terrible. But in the context of the story it sounds fine to me, and I'd be willing to bet it sounds fine to most other mendelnikes. Here are the first two paragraphs of the story: A mol zaynen geven tsvey brider, yidishe bal-melokhes. Zey hobn shver gearbet un gut fardint. Eyn mol hot a raykher man in der shtot, vu zey hobn gevoynt, gevolt farkoyfn eyns fun zayne groyse hayzer. Keyner fun di kristn in shtot hot nit gehat genug gelt tsu koyfn dos hoyz. _Hobn_ es di tsvey brider gekoyft. (page 137) _Hobn_ di kristn gezogt: "Zet, yidn nemen shoyn vider undzere zakhn!" un zey hobn bashlosn tsu nemen nekome in di tsvey brider. _Hot_ men untergevorfn lebn hoyz fun di brider a toytn un men hot gezogt, az di yidn hobn umgebrengt a krist tsu nitsn zayn blut oyf peysakh. Men hot di brider arayngezetst in tfise. Notes: 1) My apologies if I made any mistakes in transliterating. 2) 3 sentences in a row begin with verbs. 3) I notice he uses "man" for (English) 'man'. "Raykher man" in this meaning doesn't sound as odd to me as "a man" does. Do others share this feeling? 4) If Weinreich's elementary textbook is too literary for you, take a look at "Royte Pomerantsn" (by Olshvanger?). It's neither literary, nor pretentious, nor standard Yiddish. It's certainly colloquial. If I get a chance over the weekend, I'll dig up some examples from a tape I made of my mother a few years back. Khaim 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri Dec 3 16:53:21 1993 From: laibow@brick.purchase.edu Subject: Ferz/posuk Reuven Rachlin says: : : In connection with his interesting posting about the Yiddish New : Testament, Jeremy Stern asks whether there is a Yiddish word for : "verse" ther than "posuk" (pl. "p'sukim"). "Ferz" (pl. "ferzn") : has, I believe, the same meaning, but is obviously cognate to the : German "Vers(e pl.)." Possibly, but I doubt it. German "Vers" is, I believe, one of those cases where German "v" is not pronounced as "f", and my guess is that it would have come into Yiddish as "Vers" or "Verz". Anybody out there know for sure? Marnen Laibow-Koser 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri Dec 3 23:08:25 1993 From: "Bob King - ligi355@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu" Subject: Book by Bettina Simon? Does anyone out there know where I can buy, repeat, BUY, a copy of Bettina Simon, Jiddische Sprachgeschichte: Versuch einer neuen Grundlegung, 1988, published somewhere in what was then East Germany? (Confession: I checked this out of the university library last spring for a course I taught on history of Yiddish, lost it, and now the library wants me to replace it. No respectable offer refused. Bob King 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat Dec 4 07:02:10 1993 From: grgg@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: rules, verb order, linguists I admire - support but stay away from - Ellen Prince's mission to the rule-happy but text-aversive. Add Jerry (Jerrold) Sadock of the University of Chicago to her list of linguists who have done and are doing serious work in the area. Neakh / Norman Zide ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 3.155 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a Subject: line. 2. Sign your article. Send submissions/responses to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Other business: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files