Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 3.184 December 24, 1993 1) Re: my diatribes (Roslyn Kalifowicz-Waletzky) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu Dec 23 12:06:07 1993 From: Roslyn Kalifowicz-Waletzky <0005943838@mcimail.com> Subject: Re: my diatribes >Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky's diatribes about Yiddish can be amusing. >However, it is dangerous to state opinions as facts without anyone >being able to check the statements. Many Mendele subscribers are >Yiddish enthusiasts who may take any thing stated with force as >"Toyres Moyshe" or - lehavdl - Gospel truth. Anything I have written here about daytshmerizmen can be found in discussions written by a long list of Yiddish linguists since the beginning of the 20th century. Their presentations are better than anything I can produce in a posting. I don't know who your "Toyres Moshe" is, but I trust in the authority of great scholars in the field such as Max Weinreich, Uriel Weinreich, Shloyme Birnboym, Kalmanovitch, Shtif, Prilutsky, Zalmen Reyzn, Giniger, et al (I am not even going to list Yiddish writers). If you know of better ones, then present them and I will listen. >I would like to know how Kalifowicz-Waletzky can justify the use of >the term "daytshmerizmen" when discussing Old Yiddish How in the world you got the impression that I am speaking of Old Yiddish anywhere, eyn got veyst. I suggest you re-read Vol.3.158. >I would like to know ... why she {Kalifowicz-Waletzky} thinks "leyenen" >is older than "lezn". I would never dare to make that statement, and I >have spent many an hour reading pre-modern Yiddish texts. Although I >haven't paid particular attention to the first appearance of these forms, >my hunch is that both preexist written evidence. If you don't know on what basis I make some of my statements, it's wiser to ask for the proof instead of claiming that someone is making a diatribe just because they speak of the evidence with some passion. I haven't forgotten that in your original posting to which I responded, you spoke of "lesn" as it appeared in 16th and 17th century texts from Western Yiddish. What has that to do with Eastern Yiddish, which is clearly what I am talking about? I'm told that your specialty is pre-modern Yiddish texts. Surely then, you are aware that the traditions of Yiddish writing are different from Yiddish speech. (Neil Jacobs before your posting and Dovid Miller after also pointed this out here.) I am sure you know, though I don't know why you fail to mention it, that Yiddish writing of the pre-modern period borrowed much terminology and style from New High German and thus tended to use "lezn" rather than the old romance-root term "leyenen". Pre-modern Eastern Yiddish writing copied Western Yiddish style, but of course I have been speaking here of neither. I am speaking only of 20th century Eastern Yiddish SPEECH. I may make a mistake, but my area is not pre-modern Yiddish texts and I don't write about what I don't know. >Am I right when I suppose Kalifowicz-Waletzky thinks that "leyenen" >must be older because of Weinreich's hypothesis that the first >Yiddish speakers were originally speakers of a romance language? If >so, this seems to me to be an example of circularity. O.K. You asked for the evidence and I will give it to you. The evidence abounds. I found this by a quick look into Max Weinreich's works. This is one citation from Weinreich's "Geshikhte fun der yidishe shprakh", vol. 2, p.61-62. "In LEYENEN hobn mir a vort vos iz nit keyn sored {=remnant} in teyl dialektn, nor s'iz lebedik un farshpreyt bekhol tfutses yidish. S'iz keyn sofik nit, az s'iz gekumen fun determinant laazish, der avi-aves iz der lataynisher verb LEGER `leyenen'. Az der ov ken nit zayn keyn dorem-laazisher derkenen mir fun dem vos der italyenisher nusakh is mit [dzh] -- oysgeleygt LEGGERE -- haynt un in ale friyerdike stadyes fun italyenish. Dos hayntike frantseyzishe LIRE zet oykh nit oys keyn sakh neenter. Ober far an oysgangpunkt darfn mir nemen di eltere yidishe forme 0LEYEN (oysgeleygt lamed, tsvey yudn, aleph, nun; der tsukum fun tsveytn -EN {-ayin nun}, alehey in GANVEN+EN, bavayst zikh in di tekstn nit friyer vi in zekhtsetn yorhundert), un oykh in frantseyzish muzn mir tsurikgeyn gor gor vayt...Mit andere verter, dos yidishe vort iz elter eyder frantseyzish, s'shpiglt op a prefrantseyzishe (galoromanishe) tkufe fun mayrev-laazish." Vol. 4, p. 88: "LEYENEN azoy iz shoyn bay undz ongenumen fun lang, iz gebundn mit lataynish LEGERE; un memeyle hot es in yidish arayn gekont kumen nor durkh laazish. Ober mir kenen pretsezirn: ven s'zol geven zayn fun dorem-laazish, volt men zikh gerikht oyf [-dzh-] anshtot dem lataynishn intervokalishn -G-; ot hobn mir dokh, in an enlekher situatsye, [-tsh-] in BENTSHN, farglaykht lataynish BENENDICERE. Heyst es LEYENEN iz tsu undz gekumen durkh mayrev- laazim: der bazis fun dem romanishn komponent in zeyer shprakh is gevaksn in Galye, un dortn iz der -G- prevokalizirt gevorn un nokh dem gefaln in gantsn; farglaykh LEGER keneged frantseyzish LIRE. In tsvelftn yorhundert iz shoyn LIRE geven durkhgefirt durkhoys; undzer LEYE- LEGE muz deriber shtamen fun gor a friyikn alt-frantseyzish, efsher gor fun an erev frantseyzishn shikht." Weinreich also has many more comments on leyenen and its appearance in Yiddish texts. I will reproduce here only part of his comments about lezn, some of which are fascinating and probably something none of us knew about, including me: "S'volt geven falsh tsu zogn, az in der elterer yidisher literatur iz lezn lakhlutn nito, ober s'iz lekhol-adeyes zeltn biz gor. Ikh hob es bamerkt in "sam khayim", Prog, 1590; ober dukht zikh nor in gram....Der ershter taytsh fun Alt-hoykh-daytsh LE"SAN, farglaykh KLUGE, 355, iz a paganisher; dos vort hot gemeynt: `oyfklaybn un tseleygn shteklekh, vos oyf zey zaynen geven oysgekritst runes'. Dernokh iz gevorn der batayt: `lernen yenem', `leyenen far yenem', `leyenen di mese'. Grimm, Deutsches Worterbuch 6, 778: nokh vayter vi in der mitl-hoykh-daytsh tsayt vert LESEN genitst tsu batseykhenen dos ofitsyele retsitirn di kristelekhe lernung. BWb, 1, 1512, farnotirt, az in groyse teyln Bayern hot LESEN "nokh haynt" dem pshat `mispalel zayn'. In a tsayt ven dos vort hot gehat aza ofenem k r i s t l e k h n batayt hot es far yidn nit getoygt." He has written (as have others) much more about all this than cited here. It's always enriching when you check Max out. Reyzl ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 3.184 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a Subject: line. 2. Sign your article. Send submissions/responses to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Other business: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files