Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 3.347 May 12, 1994 1) Ladino/Spanish :: Yiddish/German (Bob Hoberman) 2) Oyver botl (Bob Werman) 3) Oyver botl (Zachary Baker) 4) Oyver botl (Zev bar-Lev) 5) Gedemft (Martin Davis) 6) Culinary terms (Jay Fleischer) 7) More Culinary queries (Mikhl Herzog) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed May 11 17:00:46 1994 From: RHOBERMAN@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Ladino/Spanish :: Yiddish/German Recent comments by Marion and Rick on the mutual perceptions of German and Yiddish speakers reminds me of an anecdote about Ladino (Judezmo). I don't remember the source, though I might be able to dig it up if anyone's interested. There was a large Ladino-speaking community in Salonika, Greece, and they were unaware of the existence of a whole non-Jewish Spanish world. This must have been some generations ago. Apparently there were many Jewish longshoremen in Salonika. One time a ship from Spain docked there, and the word flew out among the Jews of Salonika that there was a whole ship manned entirely by Jews in town! Bob Hoberman 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed May 11 18:26:06 1994 From: RWERMAN%HUJIVMS.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu Subject: Oyver botl [Rick Gildemeister (Vol.3.346) writes about oyver/eyver:] >Could it be that the >meaning is something like a limb, which is designed to be a >functioning part becomes a "drag" when it's "botl"? Useless >appendage might be a translation; albatross around one's neck. >Someone please correct me; this is only what I've inferred from >my experience with the expression. First of all, ever or ayver or eyver or oyver, is an organ in Hebrew and frequently a limb. Next, there are two [at least] meanings to botel, bateyl, botl, in Hebrew, one is unemployed, inactive or a wastrel; the other is void, in legal cases, as a document is batel. Finally, MASH [my colleague from Weizmann] is quite correct in identifying the expression as taken from Ethics of the Fathers [Pirke Avot] where i provides a description of an hundred year old. "A 100 year old is as if he were dead and _over and batel_ from this world." [5:24] I thought that his identification would be recognized and accepted but I overestimated the readers who continue to belabor this point, as well as heirat and other old stories. The bet tet lamed word is not always pejorative; its derivative batlan, unemployed, is used in the Talmudic definition of a city, where 10 such men are needed to attend a synagogue and by some accounts 120 such to define a city. These unemployed men were considered free to study, a higher occupation than work. __Bob Werman 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu May 12 10:09:09 1994 From: BM.YIB@RLG.Stanford.EDU Subject: Oyver botl With all of the exchanges concerning this very common expression during the last week or two, I'm surprised that no one (at least not so far as I recall) has sent in the dictionary spelling and definition: 'ayin-vov-veyz-resh - beyz-tes-lamed Defined by Uriel Weinreich, adjectivally, as "senile," and as a noun, "dotard." The Hebrew root 'ayin-bet-resh = to pass (over). (Yiddish oyver zayn = to transgress, trespass, violate.) Botl, in Yiddish, among other things, means "void." Alcalay's Hebrew-English dictionary lists the expression 'over u-batel = senile, good for nothing, in a state of mental decay, non compos (L[atin]), superannuated. In standard Yiddish, oyver ('ayin-vov-veyz-resh) has NO connection with eyver (alef-veyz-resh; "limb [of a body]"). Zachary Baker 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu May 12 11:50:57 1994 From: zbarlev@zeus.sdsu.edu Subject: Oyver botl i'm pretty sure this is just Hebrew "over batel" -- /over/ = "he passes", /baTel/ "non-functioning, cancelled, unemployed". /ever/ "limb" wouldn't give Yiddish /oy/. Zev bar-Lev 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed May 11 23:08:20 1994 From: davism@turing.cs.nyu.edu Subject: gedemft Mikl Herzog asks about "gedemft". My mother used the term "gedemft flaysh" to mean pot roasted beef. My mother was a Lodzer. Martin Davis 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu May 12 12:07:08 1994 From: Jay=Fleischer%Policy%MCU@smtpgw.mcu.gov.on.ca Subject: Culinary terms "gedempt" in my home referred to meat that was cooked in a stew like manner. The cooked meat [usually brisket or chuck] was called "gedempte fleisch" and was absolutely delicious - a zoy vee piter in der mol arein! Jay Fleischer 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed May 11 17:43:27 1994 From: ZOGUR@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: More Culinary queries Can a Slavist provide a Slavic etymon for Yiddish "preglen" along with whatever Slavic meaning variants occur? Again, thanks in advance. Mikhl Herzog ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 3.347 A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files Archives available via gopher on: gopher.cic.net Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line. 2. Sign your article. To subscribe, send SUB MENDELE FIRSTNAME LASTNAME to: LISTSERV@YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Send submissions/responses to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Other business: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu