Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.116 September 30, 1994 1) Rov vs. Rabay (Jeremy Stern) 2) Rov vs. Rabay (Yude Rozof) 3) Pomegrantes (Yude Rozof) 4) Pomegrantes (Margaret Mikulska) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 18:28:45 -0400 (EDT) From: jstern@phoenix.princeton.edu Subject: Rov vs. Rabay Redux Actually, the Rov-Rabay story is more complex. The Forverts will call any modern rabbi "Rabay." This would include just about any rabbi outside of the Yeshiva world. So, a modern Orthodox rabbi would also not be a "rov." This distinction is itself problematic. What ultimately determines if you are a "rov" is whether you can "paskn shayles," that is, render a decision about Jewish law. At the same time, even in English, the term "rov" has certain connotations, especially compared to rabbi. For example, I could not call the rabbi of my synagogue (which is Orthodox) "rov"--it would sound facetious. Yet if I wrote in loshn koydesh or Yiddish about him, I would no doubt use "rov". Would you call Rov Moshe Feinstein "Rabbi?" Or Rabbi Alexander Schindler "rov"? Jeremy Stern 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 20:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: jrosof@sas.upenn.edu Subject: Rov vs. Rabay In Vol. 4.114, Shloyme-Khayem Cohen brought up the distinction made in Yiddish between Orthodox and non-Orthodox rabbis in their titles. He noted that in the Yiddish Forwards, Orthodox rabbis are titled Rov, eg. Forwards contributor Harov Arn Ben-tsien Shurin. Rabbis of other denominations on the other hand are labeled "Rabay so and so." The contributor called for end to the distinction, which he felt to be anti-Orthodox. I whole-heartedly agree with the need to dispense with such distinctions, but it is a fallacy to view the current distinction as anti-Orthodox. Leheypekh! Quite the contrary! The offended party here is non-Orthodox Judaism. The traditional Ashkenazic term for a rabbi is rov (Sephardim call their rabbis H.akham (related to Yiddish khokhem)). My great-grandfather olevasholem was Harov Yude. When Judaism began to develop in different directions in the period of the Enlightenment or Haskole, Orthodox Jewry drew back first from Reform or Neolog Judaism, and then later from its offspring, Conservative Judaism, and still later Reconstructionist Judaism. Just as the Orthodox learned to distinguish in the realm of kashrus and conversion, so too they developed distinct terminology lehavdl, to divide between their own clergy and the suspect liberal rabbinate. The Yiddish speaking world was a predominantly Orthodox preserve, liberal Judaism being a mainly Central European and North American phenomenon. The Yiddish language came to reflect the Orthodox distinctions, importing a German word, Rabiner, to title the Reform and later Conservative rabbis. Liberal Jews were in fact sometimes called Daytshn (Germans), recalling the western source of their Judaism. It is not improbable that liberal Jews initially even liked the newfangled language and the connection with the west. Nonetheless, the Orthodox ultimately sought to gain a monopoly over the traditional Yiddish title of respect for a rabbi, rov. Unfortunately our press reflects this distinction until today. It is dubious that liberal Jewish rabbis ever stressed a distinction themselves. I assume that Conservative rabbis are buried under gravestones with their names preceded by Harov. Nothing else would be fitting, as Conservative Judaism is a halachically bound continuation of traditional judaism, although it is more liberal in its inclination to interpret the law to meet new realities than is Orthodoxy. It is true that the Conservative laity is less rigorous than the movement's principles would suggest, but this is a different matter. I imagine that today's Reform rabbis also use ha-rav on their gravestones. The distinction would be very hard to obliterate. Both Hebrew and Yiddish insist on gender endings and female rabbis are hard to accomodate linguistically. A rebetsin is the WIFE of a rabbi, and a rabanit in Hebrew is also the wife, and not the rabbi. As far as I know, modern Hebrew has no word for a female Rabbi. Yiddish does have one such word, rarely used: rabinershe. As soon as we use this form, we must use its male complement, rabiner. The problem is, the Orthodox could never countenance calling their clergy rabiner, when the good old word is rov. Thus neither rov (applicable only to men) nor rabiner is acceptable to all denominations. In American Yiddish the only compromise would be to use Rabay for all rabbis, as in English, but this is an English expression. Yiddish ought to be able to furnish a native term for this basic Jewish concept which would satisfy all parties both in the English-speaking world and beyond. In the mean time it's hard to see an easy way out. Yude Rozof 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 20:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: jrosof@sas.upenn.edu Subject: pomegranates Dan Leeson (Vol. 4.114) noted that the Yiddish for orange is pomerants and inquired what would then be pomegranate. A little history: I believe that the word pomerants enterd Yiddish via Polish. In any case it seems to me that the source of the word is the Italian pomme d'arancia, or something close to that. The latinate word means "orange fruit." Thus pomerants means orange. Frequently marants is used instead of the source word pomerants. By way of contrast, the word in German is Orange or Apfelsine. The Yiddish for pomegranate is milgroym. The German word is Granatapfel. I would like to know: is milgroym inherited from a Slavic base? Yude Rozof 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 00:12:09 EDT From: mikulska@faust.princeton.edu Subject: pomegranates Der milgroym. I wonder if it's related to "groyp", "graypl" (granule, grain of cereal, pellet), just like "-granate" in "pomegranate" comes from the Latin "granatum" (full of seeds), "granus ("seed"). Margaret Mikulska ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.116 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. 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