Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.120 October 2, 1994 1) Pomerantsn (Ellen Prince) 2) Oranges and pomegranates (Dan Leeson) 3) Pomegranates, rabbis, kreplekh (Mikhl Herzog) 4) Nokh a mol "Rov" un "Rabay" (Shloyme-Khayem Cohen) 5) Rav Ktav (Sheldon Benjamin) 6) Rav Ktav (Adam Whiteman) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 14:29:19 EDT From: ellen@central.cis.upenn.edu Subject: Pomerantsn yude rozof was close but no brass ring. accg to skeat's, pomerants is from pom- arants-, lit. 'apple orange'. pom- is romance, probably italian, from latin pomus 'apple', of unknown origin. arants- is from romance (probably from italian) /arants-/, from low latin arangia, from arabic naranj 'an orange', from persian narang 'an orange'. btw, the english word _orange_ is from french, with the same origin, as is spanish _naranja_. pomegranate is from old french pome grenate, from latin pomum granatum, lit. 'apple full-of-seeds' (granum 'grain, seed'). more than you ever wanted to know... ellen prince 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 11:56:59 EDT From: leeson@aspen.fhda.edu Subject: Oranges and pomegranates I thank all of the Mendelniks who were kind enough to shape my head correctly on the Yiddish for pomegranate as contrasted with oranges. But Shloyme Axelrod added a terrific dimension. He asked how come there was any confusion with orange and pomegranate in the first place? Let me say why my problem arose though it is likely to show me as having little in the way of brains. I speak little Italian but for years I was convinced that the Italian word for "ladder" was "laddra" based on the fact that Rossini wrote an overture called "La Gazza Laddra" which I was convinced meant "The Silken Ladder." I also knew that he had written an overture called "The Thieving Magpie" but would never in a million years have thought that that was what "La Gazza Laddra" meant. Who would have the chutzpah to use "Laddra" and mean anything but "Ladder"? Only years later did I learn that ladder was "scala" when I was in Milan and tried to get tickets to the famous opera house "La Scala." Now, divorce yourself from intimate familiarity with Yiddish and listen to the word "Pomerantz." Someone listening to the song to which I referred (which made reference to "Bekelech vie rote Pomerantzen") would logically think that pomerantzen had to be "pomegranates" for 2 reasons: 1. pomerantz sounds somewhat like pomegranate (just as laddra sounds like ladder, though that just shows my brainlessness); 2. an orange is not red and the line "Cheeks like red oranges" would never have occurred to me. What is a red orange? I never saw one. It was not until I was older that I heard of a blood orange and years before I saw one. In my neighborhood in Paterson, NJ, only sissies ate oranges because you had to be very rich to afford one that was not green. And what came up from Florida to New Jersey was neither red nor orange. Grey would be a better description. And sometimes mottled from the mold. So the translation of that line to my young ears (this was the 1930s) was "cheeks like red pomegranates." I thank Shloyme for making me recall what the source of my problem was in the first place. But now, should the song be "Bekelech vie rote Milgroymin"? Nah. It doesn't work. How about Bekelech vie rote wassermelonen? Can you imagine the gorgeous cousin from the old country arriving and having cheeks like red watermelons? Ugh! Does anyone remember that song: Tsu mir iz gekummen a cousine? Dan Leeson 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 16:59 EDT From: zogur@cuvmb.columbia.edu Subject: Pomegranates, rabbis, kreplekh Pomegranate: malum granatum, no? Whence "harov"? Isn't it the term of reference "horav"? kreplekh: H. Davidson is right (see Mordkhe Kosover's "Yidishe maykholim" in the _Yude Yofe-bukh_, pp. 70ff.), the word is of Romance origin--earliest references are, indeed, to krepe"s, analagous to French crepes. During the 12th-14th centuries, the Germanic types kreplin, krepl"ix, and the mixed form kreplins predominate. Today's Eastern Yiddish kreplekh has a variant krepxn, largely in the Northeast and a companion form krapn, also in the Northeast. Western Yiddish terms are krepfle, krapfn, krepxen. More than you wanted to know? Mikhl Herzog 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 16:51:25 EDT From: smc5@Lehigh.EDU Subject: Nokh a mol "Rov" un "Rabay" It was most interesting to see the responses to my stirring up of a hornets' nest on "Rov" vs "Rabay". *Obviously* I know that "Rabay" is somewhat of a pejorative term (Ikh bin a nit-Ortodoksisher yid). Oy. So, thanks to Elliot Hersch Gertel, Arnie Kuzmack, and Jeremy Stern, for responding to my "shayle". Perhaps Yude Rozof understood my real question best. Isn't it about time that we realize that, in the USA, most rabbis are not Orthodox, and we need a neutral (PC? I hope not) term for all. I'd prefer "Rov" for everybody, --even Alexander Schindler--and even for women. Shloyme-Khayem (Steve) Cohen 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 18:08:57 EDT From: sbenj@mit.edu Subject: Rav Ktav DAVKA software of Chicago distributes Rav Ktav (or whatever it is now called) and a bunch of other Judaic software for the Mac. They have Talmud and Tanach, etc on CD-ROM, lots of graphics, etc. Perhaps someone can give you their phone or address. I don't have it handy. Sheldon Benjamin 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 94 18:12:45 EDT From: 74031.775@compuserve.com Subject: Rav Ktav Steve Jacobson asked for information on Micro Macro - the last correspondence I had with them was from 1988 and there were three addresses on the letterhead. The contact person at the time was a Mr. Gaby Miro. Good Luck! Micro-Macro 7 Imber Holon, Israel or Micro-Macro P.O.Box 5488, Holon, 58154 Israel or Micro-Macro 3 Gnesin Street Tel Aviv 63564 Israel Adam Whiteman ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.120 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files Archives available via gopher on: gopher.cic.net Send articles to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Other business: nmiller@mail.trincoll.edu