Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.200 November 27, 1994 1) A Clarification and a Technical Refinement (Zellig Bach) 2) Zellig Bach's "friendly critique" (Dan Slobin) 3) A friendly critique and a practical proposal (Dan Leeson) 4) The minyen (Mikhl Herzog) 5) Help with Yiddish (Arn Abramson) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 15:26:01 -0500 From: zellig@aol.com Subject: A Clarification and a Technical Refinement 1. The review suggestion I made in my "Friendly Critique and a Pracical Proposal" (Vol. 4.197) is applicable only to text in Yiddish. This was self-evident since the friendly critique referred to a posting in what the writer naively, albeit innocently, assumed to be Yiddish. Still, it is necessary to make this absolutely clear to avoid wrong interpretations. 2. To obviate the need of an E-mail back-and-forth exchange between Mendele's moderator and the writer of a posting--first requesting permission to review and, in return, granting it--I respectfully suggest that the author of a communication who wishes his or her Yiddish text reviewed prior to publication, start the message with a double R, for Review Requested, in square brackets, thus [RR]. This will flag the moderator of the author's wish and _permission_ to proceed in such a fashion. 3. The flag [RR] will promptly be deleted, so nobody, except the author, will know that a review was done. Thus no stigma whatsoever will attach to an [RR] request. New or even published authors constantly consult and confer with editors about style, ideas, or suggested changes. (Personal: In my lifetime I always learned from my many editors, and to this day I often consult a very dear friend for editorial advice.) A request by a Mendelyaner for an anonymous review might be considered in a true sense part of our ongoing learning process, a commendable characteristic of our khavruse. Zellig Bach 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 18:46:11 -0800 From: slobin@cogsci.berkeley.edu Subject: Zellig Bach's "friendly critique" I didn't find this critique at all friendly; in fact, it was painfull (to use Bach's own spelling). The purpose of language should be communication, not gate-keeping-- certainly not gate-keeping in a voluntary association of people with common interests. If Bach finds it "painfull" to read Yiddish with "errors" let him skip through to the messages written in English. When I received letters in English from my grandmother, I cherished them for their content, and recognized her Yiddishized English as a sign of who she was--an immigrant who learned English in night school and in the give-and-take of everyday life. Many of the participants in Mendele are such immigrants to Yiddish. Let them express themselves as they will and can, rather than submit their correspondence to a board of judges and editors before they can be heard in their own voices. Mendele--of all public organs--certainly does not need to stamp its submissions "dozvoleno tsenzuroyu" as in the days of the czars. Dan Slobin 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 19:32:50 EST From: leeson@aspen.fhda.edu Subject: Re: A friendly critique and a practical proposal Zelig Bach almost certain intended his comments on someone who submitted a poorly written Yiddish posting to be helpful, but I'll bet two groschen that that person is now sufficiently embarrassed not to try and post again. So no matter what Zelig's intentions were, I think it turned out to be a negative act. Embarrassing a person is like shedding blood... Perhaps I empathize because every now and then I get zinged for doing some damn fool thing or asking a dumb question about Yiddish, aber ich hob beitzim vie eisin (I don't know the word for "brass") so I don't give a damn if I do it clumsily or elegantly. I just want to keep trying and if it comes out lousy and someone wants to help me privately, that is terrific. But to do it publicly on the board like it is some kind of humiliating disgrace is unworthy and unnecessary. I think the action of this board should be to accept anything at all, anything and _everything_ that some brave soul tries to put into clumsy, halting Yiddish and reach out a cooperative hand rather than make that person feel like a schmuck, even if the intent was not to make that person feel like a schmuck. How else will people trying to learn, do so? It is no disgrace to speak Yiddish badly, write it poorly but, with all that, to keep on trying. I can no more see criticizing someone for a poorly constructed Yiddish posting than I would comment on the English language capability of some of our Russian immigrants. I spend half my time telling them how terrific they are, not crushing their spirits by saying I can hardly understand a word they say. What useful purpose is served by such a klopf to the zeitim? And if this last sentence is not gramatically or orthographically correct, correct me privately and I will love you for it. Zing me in public and we shall have troubles. It seems to me that, from time to time, some of the people out in Mendele land must be my brothers and sisters because they toss guilt around like my mother did. Thus they must have learned it from her and have to be related to me. In the final analysis, one learns better with encouragement, not with a chamalye in punim. Dan Leeson 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Nov 94 10:46 EST From: zogur@cuvmb.columbia.edu Subject: The minyen Zellig Bach: One rainy Friday evening, many years ago, while walking past a one of a number of "shtiblekh" on Cecil Street in Toronto, I was literally hijacked for a minyen. This time, I volunteer. If we can really several others wCount me in. I'd simply ask that my service be delayed for a few months. I'm working against a deadline to finish Volume III. Mikhl Herzog 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Nov 94 23:02:40 EST From: abramson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Subject: Help with Yiddish There is much merit to Zellig Bach's proposal that there be a means for some of us to improve our Yiddish in our written communications to Mendele. (Obviously, alas, we cannot concern ourselves here with the niceties of a good, native Yiddish accent in our spoken Yiddish.) As one who built up whatever competence he has in the language rather late in life, I, for one, am very much aware of my deficiencies and would be grateful for help. The problem is not so much in spelling, one item emphasized by Zellig. (We have had much discussion on YIVO roman transcription and transliteration, and an outline of the system is now readily available to all of us.) What we observe quite often is distortions in morphology (word-structure) and syntax. That is, some of our contributors bravely write messages in Yiddish while suffering considerable interference from their native languages or, perhaps, other languages that they know. I am, then, in favor of taking advantage of a few volunteers who are willing to give some of their time to helping us with our Yiddish. I am, however, very much _against_ the notion that _all_ messages written in Yiddish should be submitted to a panel for possible editing before being sent out to the list. I propose that submission to copy-editing be purely voluntary. Let some kind of flag be attached to a message by a writer who wants Shames Noyekh to have the item edited. I hasten to add that I do hope that the kind editors will not be overwhelmed by too much work. At the same time, let the policy be that all relevant and civil contributions, in English or Yiddish, edited or unedited, will be welcome. That is, anyone who wishes to write in Yiddish without the help of an editor shall be entirely free to do so. Arn Abramson ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.200 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. 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