Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.349 March 4, 1995 1) Heshl, Yoshe, Yoizel, Jesus (Eliyahu Juni) 2) Skotsl kumt (Keyle Goodman) 3) Kaptsn, mazl (Yude Rozof) 4) Vegn sheidim (Moishe Kijak) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:03:36 -0500 From: ao107@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Heshl, Yoshe, Yoizel, Jesus [Dovid Braun writes about Heshl (4.345):] [. . .] > Yehoyshue-Heshl. I think I've noticed this >name combination previously as well. So it looks like the etymology of >the name _Heshl_ is Yehoyshue, which I'd never realized before. (This is >assuming the pairing is a common pairing and that it's a pairing of an >ufruf-nomen with its diminutive, a la moyshe-meshll and others recently >discussed.) Indeed. One of the more curious aspects of Mendele, for me, is many contributors' complete familiarity with details of Yiddish which, in my speech community (the "ultra"-Orthodox), are considered esoteric or are entirely unknown, while some of the details which every kheyder-yingl knows are big chiddushim to them; this has been especially noticeable WRT names. I guess it's related to the fact that in my speech community, using traditional Jewish names, including Yiddish names, is a Big Issue (much more so than *speaking* Yiddish or Hebrew), while in secular circles, where most Yiddishistic activity takes place, I assume it is not. > So at one point, or in a certain dialect(s) the stress in >the name corresponding to the Biblical 'Joshua' was probably on the 2nd >syllable: [yeho'yshue] (although now it's on the 3rd, [yehoyshu'a] -- >thence the nicknames _shi'e, shi'tsye, shike, shikl). Hmm... Hmmmm. Stress in the third-to-last syllable in a Hebrew loan word? I'm not familiar enough with Yiddish to be sure, but I'm familiar enough to be rather sceptical. /yho'yshie/ sounds very un-Yiddish to my ear; even a /balago'le/ wouldn't talk like that :-). The combination Yehoshua-Heshl is usually used together, and it's usually pronounced /shi'e-he'shl/. (It can even be merged into a single word, /shihe'shl/, used in fast speech for anyone whose name is shi'e-he'shl.) While this could be a later combination of an existing diminutive with a form of Yehoshua which has a different stress pattern, it's more likely that the diminutive comes from the same word, stress pattern and all, with which it is paired. My (non-native) instincts say it's more likely that it went like this: 1) /yhoyshi'e/ --> 2) /hoyshi'e/ --> 3) /heshi'e/ --> 4) /he'she/ or /he'shl/ In the transition from (3) to (4), stress would move to the /e/ to remain on the second-to-last syllable when a syllable is dropped. I assume that the transition form /oy/ to /e/ is a process which happens in many other words as well. It can be placed in the middle (as I did above), earlier, or later, depending on history and how it interacts with other processes. While I'm on the subject of diminutives for Joshua, here's another: Yoshe. (I think it's most common by Litvishe, maybe Russishe as well.) I assume that for /yo'she/, the etymology is: 1) /yhoyshu'e/ --> 2) /yoyshu'e/ --> 3) /yo'she/ Again, in the transition from (2) to (3), stress would move to remain on the second-to-last syllable when a syllable is dropped. I'm not sure where to place the shift from /oy/ (choilem) to /o/ (komets), but I assume it's also a process which occurs in many other words. Of course, according to the theory put forth by Reb Dovid, it could be 1) /yho'yshue/ --> 2) /y'ho'yshe/ --> 3) /yo'she/ or 1) /yho'yshue/ --> 2) /yo'yshue/ --> 3) /yo'she/ with no shift in stress necessary. There's also another use of "Yoshe"--as a nickname for Jesus; other Yiddish diminutives which were used to allude to Jesus include "Yoizel" and "Getzel". I assume there are more; would anyone care to enlighten me? Eliyahu Juni 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:04:43 -0800 From: ac939@lafn.org Subject: Skotsl kumt My mother used to say "skotsl kumt" in a somewhat pejorative way when she was dissatisfied with the unexpected visitor before he/she crossed the threshold. She would mutter, "Skotsl kumt. Zey nor ver s'hot zikh ge-yavet." It seems to me that in the video, Fishke der Krumer, Mendele uses the expression "Getsl Kumt" and I wonder if this wasn't tongue in cheek for skotsl kumt. If my memory serves me Mendele used this in relation to the Ganev with Doba. Keyle Goodman 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:02:45 -0500 (EST) From: jrosof@sas.upenn.edu Subject: Kaptsn, mazl Berl Leizer discusses mazl and kaptsn. Thank you Berl for your information. I was not aware that the tradition of the paytanim included astrology and that diagrams appeared in makhzorim--are you sure makhzorim and not just siddurim? The astrological signs are also part of a traditional Jewish luekhl (calendar). On the question of the Yiddish origin of Modern Israeli Hebrew kabtsan: I believe another such word is the Yiddish talyen: hangman, based on the German Henker, which is in turn I believe based on the verb haengen, to hang. I may be mistaken partially or entirely, but I heard this idea recently so I thought I'd throw it out to the the Mendlyaner for scrutiny. In any event, it is well known that Yiddish created new Yiddish words from Hebrew roots. I think that such words as hislayves/hitlahavut, dveykes/dveikut are original Yiddish coinages. The meanings are today somewhat distinct in Yiddish and Israeli Hebrew. We tend to assume that a word of Hebrew coinage in Yiddish is a Hebrew word borrowed into Yiddish. Clearly though, this is an oversimplification: although perhaps less active than other components, loshn-koydesh yielded new Yiddish coinages. These coinages were modern Hebrew's for the taking. Unfortunately, because of the anti_yiddish attitude of many leaders of the Hebrew revival, these living Hebrew creations within the Yiddish language and other Jewish languages fell into disuse, and sometimes they were replaced by calques of western usage. Eg. Yiddish has iker shokhakhti for P.S. Israeli Hebrew has totally forghotten this form, initially used by E. European immigrants. Today the expression "tosefet ah.arona"is employed instead. In general, it has been my observation that Israeli Hebrew, when given the choice between an expression of Loshn-koydesh in Yiddish, and a new creation, has a marked preference to distance itself from Yiddish. Mordkhe Schaechter explored a similar phenomenon in the development of Yiddish in his paper, "The Hidden Standard," which argues convincingly that standard Yiddish, when confronted by dialectical variants, chose the variant closest to German, regardless of majority usage. It would be interesting to make a comprable study of Hebrew development and attitudes towards loshn-koydesh in Yiddish. Yude Rozof 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 16:13:56 ARG From: administ@kijak.recom.edu.ar Subject: Vegn sheidim Itzik Manger shraibt in a lid: "Raboisai, lakht nisht op fun kishef, Got zol aikh bahitn- kh'hob gelakht vi ir, un fregt nisht vos ikh hob gelitn" Bai mir in kompiuter zenen arain sheidim, nisht far keinem gedakht, un zei hobn opgemekt di briv vos ikh hob derhaltn zint dem 27tn februar. Ikh hob oif ein rege bloiz, gekent zen az emitzer fun aikh hot mir tzugeshikt an entfer tzu main bakoshe, vegn oifshriftn oif sforim vos men git vi a matone. Bet ikh bai di farvalter fun der reshime un di fraint vos hobn tzu mir geshribn, zei zoln mir shikn vider di briv. A dank forois far alemen. Aier fraint fun Argentine. Moishe Kijak ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.349 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. 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