Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.360 March 9, 1995 1) Elye, Heshl, Yoshe, Yoynosn, Iser (Eliyahu Juni) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 03:32:46 -0500 From: ao107@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Elye, Heshl, Yoshe, Yoynosn, Iser. . . In Vol 4.355, Reb Duvid Braun wrote farshidene interesante rayoynes in response to my comments on diminutives; here are various ramblings in reply: 1. Eliyahu / Elye: If we're going to return to Yiddish already, in my dialect it should be Eliyuhi; diminutivizable to Eleshi (poylishe bube), Eliko (minkatcher babe) or Elinyu (russishe shvesterkinder, were I to have any.) Elye, however, is a litvishe moniker which I don't particularly care for, because: a) I have a chip on my shoulder about *not* being a Litvak, b) it reminds me of a certain rosh yeshive from Pennsylvania who shall remain nameless, known throughout the yeshivishe world simply as "Reb Elye," among whose khsidim I cannot be counted, to say the least. 2. Yehoshua / Heshl / Yoshe, Yosef / Yosl: Reb Duvid wrote that his reason for suggesting that /he'shl/ implies that the original was once pronounced /yeho'yshue/ (with stress on the second syllable), even though this form is problematic, was because diminutive personal names usually stress the same syllable as the 'original' name. I can see his point, but /yeho'yshue/ sounds so strange to my ear that I'd rather posit an etymology which keeps the penultimate stress. Better an exception to diminutives using "original" stress (for which I'd be curious to see some evidence) than such an exceptional stress pattern as /yeho'yshue/. Reb Duvid posited the following transformation: yeho'(y)shue --> yo'shue --> yoshe yeho'(y)shue --> ho'shue --> he'shl Granted, it works. But I'd rather not posit /yeho'yshue/ unless my back is against the wall and the boydm is falling on my head, klots and all. :-) So I still think the following transformation is better: yeho(y)shu'e --> yoshu'e --> yo'she yeho(y)shu'e --> hoshu'e --> he'she / he'shl I would posit that stress goes on the penultimate syllable, and moves to remain on that syllable when vowels are dropped, changing the stress from /yoshe'/ and /heshe'/ to /yo'she/ and /he'she/. Reb Duvid put the /y/ in /yeho(y)shu'e/ in parenthesis, and suggested that "this khoylem-vov was (is?) dialectally pronounced [o] and not [oy]." He suggested an analogy with the the name Yosef, pronounced /yeysef/ by Litvishe, and /yosef/--not */yoysef/--in dialects where khoylem-vov is usually pronounce [oy]. He suggests that this variation helps account for the diminutive /yosl/, derived from /yosef/, not /yoysef/. {I am assuming that the [o] he refers to is the same as a litvisher komets (or a komets before a shvo-noch for poylishe/ingerishe), similar to the sounds symbolized in IPA as [^] (the u in but) and 'open-o' (the o in bore).} In the dialects I'm familiar with, /yoysef/ is often pronounced /yosef/ in casual speech, but never in kriyas hatoyre or formal speech. This [o] is a noticeably short vowel, much shorter than the [oy] in /yoysef/. My gut feeling is that it can only replace [oy] in closed syllables (those which have a consonant after the vowel). Why should [yoys] in /yoysef/ be considered closed any more than [hoysh] in [yehoyshue]? I can't think of any logical reason, and I certainly don't want to start arguing about syllable structure. It just feels that way. Other examples where [oy] becomes [o]: baal peoyr becomes baal peor; doyr - dor; boyr - bor; shoyr hamued - shor hamued; groys - gros (feels ingerish, not poylish--gets spelled giml-reish-komets.alef-samech, especially as a name); royt - rot (same feeling as gros, and parallel spelling); khaloys - khalos (feels poylish, not ingerish); khaloym - khalom, or khuloym - khulom - khulem; oyf - of; loyfn - lofn; hoyf - hof; soyf - sof; kiyoyr - kiyor; moyshe - moshe - moshke; doyv - dov; moyfsim - mofsim; apikoyres - apikores, apikorsim; soynim - sonim; soykhrim - sokhrim; roysh - rosh. But there are plenty of counterexamples: hoyz - hows, with a very noticeable w -- not hos; and the same goes for oys - ows, aroys - arows, hoyzn - howzn, poyer - power, boym - bowm, toyzent - towzent. And oyf - of - owf, hoyf - hof - howf, royt - rot - rowt, come to think of it. And broyn - brown, although the family name is usually broner, not broyner. And there are plenty of words which [oy] doesn't change at all: kharoysis, khoylim, oylem, goylem, oire, koyre, toyre, skhoyre, moyre (although moyrayni - morayni), koyrim, shoyn, kroyn, goy, azoy, soykher, koyne, koyfn, boydm, yoyneh, and noyekh. And who could forget khoyzik? The only thing consistent in all this mess of data is that to my ear, all the oy's sound like they're in open syllables, and all the o's sound like they're in closed syllables. Maybe it's because I'm used to the notion that [o] only appears as a replacement komets instead of [u] in closed syllables, and here it's replacing a choylem, so this may be a load of rubbish. Then again, these two features seem to occur in the same dialects, so maybe I'm not so crazy after all. Still, /yeho'shue/ sounds almost as bad as /yeho'yshue/, although /yoshu'e/ doesn't sound half bad, much better than /yoyshu'e/. And yes, I do realize that none of this forms even a semi-solid argument about anything we're talking about. Maybe what's bothering me is that all the examples we're dealing with have unstressed vowels which are barely articulated, (mostly realized as schwas,) while /yeho'yshiye/ or /yeho'yshuwe/ has an unstressed full vowel--a diphthong no less--which seems to be fully articulated, and another unstressed vowel not separated from it by a consonant. If it was ever stressed that way, it surely was not pronounced that way outside the most stilted of contexts. If that hasn't provided you with food for thought, you're a picky eater. 3. Yoynosn / Nosn: Es chato-ay ani mazkir hayoym. (You shouldn't think I'm such a groyser tsadik that I'm doing tshuve on my own: Reb Duvid caught me in flagrante delicto.) 'Khob tsigeshtelt boydm tsu klots: I claimed that ante-penultimate stress is anomalous in Hebrew loan words in Yiddish. Reb Duvid came up with some examples: /kalo'nimus/, /ro'sheshone/, /akha'zhvereysh/, and /yo'ynosn/. I'm used to /klo'ynimes/ and /yo'ynosn/; /ro'sheshone/ and /akha'shvereysh/ sound horrible, even worse than /yeho'yshue/. (I'm tempted to say something about balegoles, but the Teamsters haven't forgiven me for the last one yet.) Another example is /yo'ykhenon/. /yeho'yshue/ *still* sounds incredibly strange. Tangentially, Reb Duvid asked if I would concur that the name /yo'ynosn/ is never used in the (chareidi) Yiddish speech communities to which I have access, and suggested that "if anything, it's _nosn_." Regarding /yo'ynesn/, I can do more than just concur--here's some evidence, from a mayse-sh'hoye. (This story was reported to me by my first cousin, daughter of Mendele member Shmilu Juni.) One of my forty-second cousins in Israel recently celebrated the bris of his first-born son, who he named Yonatan. One of the guests was another cousin of mine, an elderly man who grew up in Satmar (the original), speaks Yiddish and little else (despite living in Israel for 50 years), and who brings out the "ultra" in "ultra-Orthodox." This elderly cousin chided the father of the boy for choosing such an un-traditional name, saying, "fun vi host di genimen aza nimen vi yoynosn? nisht fun dayne zaydes; bei indz in di heym hot men nisht genitst azelekhe neimn vi yoynosn." But /yo'ynosn/ is _not_ replaced by /nosn/. (Sigh. . . here we go again.) Nosn is an entirely different name, although it's also associated with Duvidameylekh. Did you follow the story while he got older? (Hint: think prophecy, not war.) {To round out the almost-but-not-quite set, there's Nism, as in Nissim, (miracles), pretty rare but still around. And Nisn, as in the month Nisan, often given to boys born on the relevant rishkhoydesh; which reminds me of Paysakh, given to boys born on the relevant holiday. Yes, it makes sense; but strangely, there are no counterparts Tishrey, Sukes, Kislev, Iyer, Shviyes, or Sivan (although Sivan is popular among modern Israelis, and might be traditional among some Sephardim).} 4. Yisroel / Iser: Someone (Meylekh Viswanath?) raised the issue that just as /he'shl/ does not seem to follow from the standard stress in /yehoyshu'e/, /I'ser/ does not follow from the standard stress in /yIsro'el/. If my solution for Heshl was right, then it can be used for I'ser as well: yIsro'el --> yIsro'l --> yI'serl --> I'serl --> Iser And when the name yisroel is used in full, it often pronounce yIsro'l; could that be evidence that my first step is valid? {While we're dealing with Iser, might it not be derived from a translation of Yisroel, i.e. 'Israel' (or a Slavic variation on 'Israel')? Intuitively I find such an option more appealing, and there are plenty of other names in loshn koydesh which get paired with their translations in other languages.} To anyone who had the zitsflaysh to actually read through this whole thing, a shaynm dank. Come to think of it, maybe you should get out more ;-). Reb Duvid closed with "Be me well and strong." After such a lange megile, I'll have to add "Have me a good Pirem". Eliyahu Juni ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.360 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files Archives available via gopher on: gopher.cic.net Send articles to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Send change-of-status messages to: listserv@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu a. 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