Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 5.063 July 20, 1995 1) Why never 'der' Rashi? (Michael Shimshoni) 2) Definite article plus (Meylekh Viswanath) 3) "Bringing" for "citing" (Reuven Rachlin) 4) Bringing examples (Bob Rothstein) 5) Khotsh (David Herskovic) 6) Khotsh (Mottel Lakin) 7) Khotsh (Eliyahu Juni) 8) Hebrew-Yiddish pairs (Bob Rothstein) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 11:12:36 +0300 From: mash@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il Subject: Why never 'der' Rashi? In Mendele Vol 5.060 among another points, Eliyahu Juni also discusses the places when one says in front of the name of a rabbi "der", like der Rambam, and when "der" is not used. I think that it was in mail-jewish where someone had brought up a related question, not mentioned by Juni, and which as far as I know was never answered. Why is the combination "the" Rambam frequently used but never "the" Rashi? I think other examples were given as well. Clearly both Rambam and Rashi are acronyms. Michael Shimshoni 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:41:37 EST5EDT From: pviswana@andromeda.rutgers.edu Subject: Definite article plus Eliyahu Juni writes that the definite article is usually used with a name if the name in question is an acronym or a magnum opus (e.g. the Rambam or haRambam). Acronyms don't always require a definite article, and in fact, in some cases, cannot take it. The example I have is of Rashi: rashe brengt, etc. not 'der rashe brengt.' Eliyahu speculates further that the use of an article with a proper name might be restricted to names prefaced by the title "Rabeynu", or perhaps even to names consisting of "Rabeynu X" where X is a single personal name, and no more. However, he brings down an example that refutes his own hypothesis, viz. "der Noyde Biyhude iz geveyn rov in Prag." Of course, he may have meant that for the definite article to be used, the name has to either be that of a book or a personal name beginning with Rabeynu X, where X is a single personal name, and no more. I have an alternate hypothesis. Perhaps the definite article _always_ refers to a book. Thus, "der Rambam" refers to 'yad khazaka' or some other book, depending upon the context. E.g. "azoy shteyt in hilkhes tshuve inem Rambam." Similarly, the 'node biyhude' refers to the seyfer written by R. Yekhezkel Landau. However, this is then extended, so as to refer to the author of the seyfer, so that we have "der Noyde Biyhude iz geveyn rov in Prag." According to this hypothesis, if you say: "der rambam hot gevoynt in fustat," this actually means " the writer of the book written by the rambam lived in Fustat." Now, this may seem unduly complicated. On the other hand, we can now explain why we cannot have 'der rashe,' because there is no book by rashe. A test of this hypothesis is to see if the definite article is used for writers who have not written complete sforim. For example, does one say 'der rabeynu khananel?' Disclaimer: There was a discussion on this very point in mail.jewish. Some of what I have written might stem from mail.jewish. Meylekh Viswanath 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:07:05 -0600 From: rrachlin@drm.com Subject: "Bringing" for "citing" Reb Eliyahu Juni's scholarly submission on the use of "bring" in English, Yiddish, and Hebrew as a synonym for "cites" (as proof) can be expanded with the Aramaic use of "'isa'" (aleph-yud-sov-aleph") used like "muva'" in Hebrew. Thus: "'isa' b'gemara"="it's brought (as a proof) in the Gemara." Reuven Rachlin 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 23:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: rar@slavic.umass.edu Subject: Bringing examples Another possible source for "bringing an example" (discussed by Shleyme Axelrod in 5.056 and Eliyahu Juni in 5.060) are Slavic calques of (medieval?) Latin _adducere_ such as Russian _privesti primer_, Czech _uvest pr^iklad_ 'adduce an example'. In other contexts the verbs would be translated by English "bring" or Yiddish _brengen_. Bob Rothstein 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Jul 95 18:23:27 EDT From: 100114.750@compuserve.com Subject: Khotsh, khotshk Khotsh or khotshk is used in two ways. 1. at least; 2. despite. You find it in a song, "Gib mir abisele, khotshk abisele koyekh". Here it is used in the first sense. The other meaning is found in a popular tune sung by kheydr children on the sedre in parshes Va'yekhi. Where Yankev tells Yoysef to bury him in the land of Kenan despite not having done so to Yoysef's mother Rokhel. The posik starts Va'ani. The tune goes on the words "Khotshk ikh bin dikh matriekh mit mayn kevire, un far dayn mame Rokhel hob ikh nisht azoy geton". David Herskovic 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:44:53 -0400 (EDT) From: mlakin@acpub.duke.edu Subject: Khotsh To Fishel Hoppe's question, I believe its meaning is "despite the fact that" or "even though" and I think it derives from the Russian Chotya which means "even though". At least that is the way I recall it being used. Mottel Lakin 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 03:55:23 -0400 From: ao107@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Khotsh I was surprised to find that Reb Yankel Gerger's query about where "khotsh" is used got only one answer; I would have responded earlier, but I expected the next volume to be flooded. Khog'meynt az khotsh di mendelyaner vos redn yiidish alts zeyere ershte shprakh kenen es, un kh'hob mikh nisht g'kholemt az s'iz a y'kar ham'tsies; "bay indz", vi me zogt, s'iz a vort vos m'nitst gants a sakh, un nisht nor shrayim fun der literatur. In the usage I am used to, "khotsh" means 'at least'; it's synonymous with "l'khol hapokhes". See the paragraph above for an example. Eliyahu Juni 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:37:55 -0400 (EDT) From: rar@slavic.umass.edu Subject: Hebrew-Yiddish pairs Miriam Isaacs asks about children's rhymes with paired Hebrew and Yiddish words (5.061). A number of such songs have been published, starting with Ginzburg and Marek (nos. 122-23). No. 448 in Y. L. Cahan's _Yidishe folkslider mit melodyes_ is a long variant that begins as follows: Eyle toyldes noyekh, fun bronfn krigt men koyekh, a glezele vayn iz der iker, fun bronfn vert men shiker. Ov iz a foter, keyder iz a toter, a toter iz keyder, bgodim zenen kleyder, kleyder zenen bgodim, royt iz odem, odem iz royt, lekhem iz broyt... No. 449 is a shorter but trilingual (Hebrew-Yiddish-Polish [mostly]) text: Bayis, a shtibele -- to khata, eym, a muter -- to mama, ov, a foter -- to tata, derekh, a veg -- to droga, yad, a hant -- to ruka [Ukrainian or Russian], regel, a fus -- to noga. Bob Rothstein ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 5.063