Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 5.066 July 23, 1995 1) Origins of Yiddish (Jack Feldman) 2) Jews in medieval Italy (Francesco Bonomi) 3) Altnoy shul (Michael Shimshoni) 4) Altneuschul, Prague (Arn Abramson) 5) Altneuschul and Yiddish (Arn Abramson) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 18:25:31 -0700 From: Jacob Feldman Subject: Origins of Yiddish Although no linguist, I am delighted by Ellen Prince's "wild speculation", which is both elegant and plausible - no guarantee of truth, unfortunately - and which also makes sense of my recollection of having been told that some of the earliest books in Yiddish were published in Italy (I might have heard it from Eli Katz, but he's not to blame if my recollection is faulty). Jack Feldman 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Jul 95 2:55:37 GMT From: f.bonomi@agora.stm.it Subject: Jews in medieval Italy Ellen Prince thought of german-speaking north Italy as a possible birthplace for yiddish, and later looked that area into the Jewish Travel guide, to have an hint about jewish communities in that area. There are several problems with this theory, though: 1. That area is _really_ austrian. It has become italy only after WWI, in 1918. If jews were living there before, they had no serious reason to speak italian. 2. In the rest of Italy, jews spoke a local idiom (judeo-italian). It is very discussed how much, when, and where it was spoken, but nevertheless it is clear that it existed ca 1100-1900. 3. Before that, we have schools of poets in _hebrew_ (paytanim) beginning from about A.D. 800. 4. When german-speaking jews came in italy, they were very clearly coming from north, had their own "Machsor le-minhag ashkenazim", and amongst the italian jewry they were called "tedeschi" (germans). (Two jewish family names are Tedeschi and Polacco) By the way, the region in Italy where german is spoken is made up of two areas: Trentino and Alto Adige (Alto Adige in called SudTirol by the locals). Everywhere in Europe there are plenty of signs of jewish presence in the high middle-ages (I think that we must look for the roots of yiddish _much_ before than 15th-16th century). I would say that the problem is working out an organic view out of all these fragments. What I like to think is quite an opposite point of view: i.e. not of jews travelling northbound to germanic and slavic countries, but of barbarian invasions that submerge a roman presence that had a considerable jewish presence. This would explain for a very deep romance substratus a little bit everywhere. Francesco Bonomi 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Jul 95 11:36:07 +0300 From: mash@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il Subject: Altnoy shul In Vol. 5.062 Arnie Kuzmack mentions the "Altneu" Shul in Prague. A few years ago I also visited that shul and was allowed inside, but not to that part where the "remains" of the Golem are kept... I am fairly sure that Arnie's explanation to the name Altneu is correct, but there is another opinion which claims that the name is not connected to old and new, but stems from the Hebrew (Yiddish) expression, "altnoy", meaning "on condition". The condition being that it was built only to be used as long the meshiakh has not come, then it will be moved to eretz yisroel. By the way, Herzl borrowed the title for his "utopian" novel Altneuland from the name of this shul, meaning old-new land. Michael Shimshoni 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Jul 95 11:46:55 EDT From: abramson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Subject: Altneuschul, Prague To Arnie Kuzmack let me say that I have also spent time _inside_ the Altneuschul in Prague. It was in 1967. With regard to the indirect exchange between him and Alice Faber, I have a brief quotation from a book: Breffny, Brian de. (1978). _The Synagogue_. New York: Macmillan. On pp. 65-66 we find, "The Altneuschul (Old--new-school)...appears to have got its name because, when it was built at the end of the thirteenth or the beginning of the fourteenth century, it was a new synagogue building (synagogues are mentioned at Prague in the twelfth century), but later it could no longer be referred to as 'the new' when another newer synagogue was erected--so it became the 'old-new'." Arn Abramson 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Jul 95 14:31:04 EDT From: abramson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Subject: Altneuschul and Yiddish I have found some further remarks on the name of the Altneuschul in Prague. The folowing source is not a scholarly work, but it may have to be considered in contrast with the statement by Brian de Breffny that I sent earlier. Tigay, Alan M. (Ed.) (1994). _The Jewish traveler: Hadassah Magazine's guide to the world's Jewish communities and sights_. Northvale, NJ & London: Jason Aronson. On p. 414, "The Golem is said to live in the attic of the Old-New Synagogue, whose name's origin is subject to ongoing debate. Despite the view that _Altneuschul_ means simply 'Old-New Synagogue,' it may actually take its name from the Hebrew _al tnai_ --'on condition'; the synagogue was built on condition that when the messianic age arrives it would be torn down and rebuilt, brick by brick,in Eretz Yisrael." Support for this story comes from a legend that "the synagogue was built by exiles from Jerusalem after the destruction of the Temple in the year 70; these exiles brought with them Temple stones for the synagogue's foundation" (Freedman, 1972, pp. 234-235). Freedman, Warren. (1972). _The selective guide for the Jewish traveler_. New York: Collier. It seems to me, then, that the murky origins of the name of the synagogue render it not too useful for discussions on the origins of Yiddish. Arn Abramson ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 5.066 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) Send articles to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Send change-of-status messages to: listserv@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu a. For a temporary stop: set mendele nomail b. To resume delivery: set mendele mail c. To subscribe: sub mendele first_name last_name d. 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