Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 5.225 January 21, 1996 1) Occupational names and women (Zellig Bach) 2) Haredi Yiddish and Rav Shach (Bob Hoberman) 3) Haredi Yiddish and Rav Shach (Moises Kijak) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 02:55:47 -0500 From: zellig@aol.com Subject: The most frequent suffixes in Yiddish for feminine names formed from masculine names -- not last names -- for the purpose of indicating women's position, profession, or social status are -ke or -in. Since the suffix -ke is usually the _diminutive_ of children's name (Beylke, Leyke, Sorke; Itske, Shleymke, Peysekhke), people often felt that when a -ke suffix is applied to a grown-up woman, in whatever capacity, it will not only sound diminutive but is, in some way, also lacking in respect and thus unintentionally _diminish_ the person's worth. Words with the -in suffix, when compared with those ending with -ke, might be said (paraphrasing an expression coined by the famous poet and Bible translator Yehyosh) to wear top hats ["trogn tsilinders"]. Thus "Lererin" is considered more formal than "lererke," and, it is felt, carries more respect. As I had occasion to state some time ago on the pp. of Mendele, this was the psychological reason for innovating the _augmentative_ feminine names Male and Rive since in their original Hebrew-Yiddish, the names MalKE and RivKE sound as if they were Yiddish diminutives. Occasionally, but _not_ always, the -ke suffix serves to indicate a marital relationship, for instance: Shnayderke, the wife of a tailor; shusterke, the wife of a cobbler. In many other cases, it might just indicate an independent position or profession. In the case of the just mentioned "shnayderke," it would be more accurate to call her "shnayderin" if she is a tailor in her own right, or "neytorin" (from "neyen," to sew). There are several more suffixes serving the same purpose, in addition to -ke and -in, such as -te, -she, -tsin, -etsin, and some others. Herewith a short random list of Yiddish feminine names of professions or social status: 1. Artistin, artistke; 2. Arbetorin, arbeterke (worker); 3. Birgerin (citizen); 4. Delegatin (delegate), also delegatke; [Beware of the plural "delegatkes" on account of the last two syllables, since "gatkes" are Yiddish for men's underwear, and might result in a howling audience response.] 5. Gabete (wife of a gabe (giml, beys, alef, yud), synagogue trustee; [Also ironically a woman who by "self-appointment" takes over things and starts acting with khutspe in an uninvited supervisory capacity ] 6. Grafine (countess); 7. Doktorke (woman physician); [Note: "Doktorshe" is the wife of a male physician.] 8. Mendelyanerin (a khaverte or khavertorin of the Mendele khavruse); 9. Mitgliderin (member); 10. Rabinerke (female reform rabbi); [May evolve later, upon greater public acceptance, into rabinerin.] 11. Rebetsin (wife of a rabbi); 12. Shameste (wife of a shames); 13. Shilerin (pupil in a Yiddish secular school). With reference to the suffix -etsin (No. 11 above) I found an interesting exchange about one single word in Esperanto and its possible connection to the Yiddish "rebetsin" (_Yidishe Shprakh_, YIVO journal for the problems of standard Yiddish [klal shprakh], Vol. VIII, No 3, pp. 79-82, Dec. 1958). All words in Esperanto are readily traceable to their various linguistic roots, except the suffix -edzin that signifies a married woman. The editor of the journal, the late Yudl Mark, posited with much certainty that Zamenhof took the Yiddish "rebetsin" as a matrix for his coinage. As is well known Zamenhof loved Yiddish, wrote about the need to simplify its spelling, to rid it from superfluous ayens and shtume [silent] alefs. He also composed a grammar of Yiddish. It is of special interest that he suggested to start writing Yiddish in the Latin alphabet, and that in some measure Mendele does it in its romanized Yiddish posts. Zellig Bach 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:26:59 -0500 (EST) From: rdhoberman@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Haredi Yiddish and Rav Shach I somehow messed up my message on this subject, and only the last sentence got through. I'm sorry for the confusion, and apologize to the shames for the extra work. I enjoyed Henekh Coleman's informative report on Haredi Yiddish. I can add a bit about Rav Shach. In 1990 I recorded from the TV his famous speech on national politics. While it was predominantly in Hebrew, a number of times he inadvertently reverted to Yiddish, for several minutes at a time. (This is based on my 5-year-old memory.) His Hebrew sounds like Yiddish, in its phonology, some of the syntax, and vocabulary and idiomatic usages. To most Israelis it would sound outlandish. It's not at all like the Hebrew one hears from younger people in Haredi neighborhoods in Jerusalem, which is exactly like the Hebrew of other Israelis, aside from terms relating to their particular culture which they might borrow from Yiddish. If anyone is interested, I'll listed again to my recording and be able to give you more information. I'd also be willing to send a copy of the recording. Bob Hoberman 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:04:36 -0300 From: administ@kijak.recom.edu.ar Subject: Vegn Rav Shakh un idish Taiere fraint, ikh vil nisht onteilnemen in der diskusie vegn idish bai di frume, nor dertzeiln aikh a por zakhn. Mit tzvei khadoshim tzurik iz gekumen tzu undz kain argentine, Rav Shakhs eidem, Rav Bergman. s'iz mir oisgekumen tzu redn mit im un ikh hob bavundert zain vilner idish. ikh hob im gezogt az loit zain idish, shtois ikh zikh on az zain mishpokhe shtamt fun lite. "yr hot nisht getrofn" hot er mir geentfert. "ikh bin shoin der zekster dor geboirene in Ysroel, un main mishpokhe shtamt fun rusland; nor vos den, ikh drei zikh keseider arum tzvishn litvakes un es hot zikh mir tzugetchepet zeier idish". ven ikh hob im gefregt vegn zain shvers gezunt , hot er mir azoi geentfert: "bai undz zogt men az di zikne iz a makhle, vos vegn ir ken men nisht zogn _loi aleikhem_". zait ale gezunt. ver es interesirt zikh mitn gezunt-tzushtand fun undzer mame-loshn, volt ikh rekomendirt dos vos Shmuel Rollansky Z"L flegt keseider zogn: "lomir onhoibn mit zikh un mit undzere heimen. Moises Kijak ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 5.225