
Yiddish Mailing List, Issue #3		Nov 27, 1988		312 lines
==============================
	Yiddish (reposted from soc.culture.jewish) - David Sherman
	Messages from:
		VISWANATH%draco.bitnet
		fsks@cs.unc.edu (Frank Silbermann)
		chb@valideast (Charlie Berg)
		raphael@ms.uky.edu (Raphael Finkel) (2)


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Digest-Message: 03/1
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman)
Subject: Re: Ashkenazic Jewish Culture
Date: Thu, 17-Nov-88 00:54:48 EST

(reposted from soc.culture.jewish)

A while back, nmg@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu (Nancy M Gould) wrote:
> It is very rare that I meet an American Jew like myself who is interested
> specifically in Ashkenazic or Yiddish culture.
> 
> I was just wondering, is there anybody else out there who
> feels the way I do?

And a bit later, delatizk@bbn.com (Jonathan Delatizky) wrote:
>I still want to learn Yiddish, though!

Yiddish hasn't quite vanished:

1. There are still groups within the Chassidic communities who
   use Yiddish as a daily language.  The largest such group, to my
   knowledge, are the Satmar, primarily in Williamsburg (Brooklyn)
   and in Kiryas Yoel (Monroe, NY).  The Satmar are not, however,
   overly welcoming to strangers; even as Orthodox, Yiddish-speaking
   customers in their stores we were quite uniformly left with the
   feeling we were Not Wanted.  Other Chassidic groups using Yiddish
   can be found in Boro Park (Brooklyn), Monsey, NY, and in small
   groups elsewhere, including Toronto, and do not display hostility.
Admittedly, the Yiddish culture lived by the Chassidim is in some ways
very different from the Yiddish culture (secular literature, etc.) which
thrived 50 years ago in both North America and Europe.  It is entirely
Torah-based, whereas the earlier Yiddish culture was a mix.

2. At the rightmost stream of Orthodox schools (yeshivah-schools
   as opposed to day schools), Yiddish is used when the boys learn
   Chumash, as a "teitsh" (translation). "Bereishis bara elokim es
   hashamayim v'es haaretz." "In der onhoib hot got bashafen die
   shamayim un dem velt." [Wording mine and likely inaccurate.]
The original purpose was to teach Chumash with translation.  Today,
the vast majority of the kids in such a cheder don't speak Yiddish
at home, so the "teitsh" is rather meaningless... except that,
eventually, they learn some Yiddish that way.  (This is done with
the young boys at Yeshivah Yesodei Hatorah in Toronto, as an example.
That is the "most Orthodox" of the four schools here to which Orthodox
families can consider sending their kids. [There's a parallel girls'
school, Beis Yaakov, where I believe very little Yiddish is used.])
	As they continue in yeshivah, the boys learn more Yiddish,
because some rebbeim teach in Yiddish.  I believe there is a trend
away from this as time goes on, but I'm not sure.

3. On the secular side, there is YIVO.  The acronym stands for Yiddisher
   Vissenshaftlicher Institut.  It was founded in Vilna in 1925,
   originally as language academy, moved to New York because of the
   war, and has become the centre of Yiddish research and culture.
   A surprising number of researchers, participants, students, etc.
   are young.  Call (212-535-6700) or write for information about
   membership, activities, etc.
YIVO runs "Klezkamp" every December in the Catskills.  If you're
interested in reliving Yiddish culture, whether or not you know
much Yiddish, I highly recommend it.  I posted an article about it
a few weeks ago.
	YIVO is non-religious but not anti-religious.  For example,
Klezkamp is held at a kosher hotel and not over Shabbos, so as to
be accessible to those who are observant of mitzvos and also interested
in Yiddish.

4. The Arbeter-Ring (Workmen's Circle) has long been a source
   of Yiddish culture and materials.  The NYC Workmen's Circle,
   on 33rd Street, has the best collection of Yiddish records,
   tapes, books, toys, etc. one could imagine -- and all for sale,
   not just on display.  The Arbeter-Ring is, historically, a
   socialist organization, and somewhat anti-religious (in contrast
   with YIVO's being areligious).  Which is not to say that I don't
   get along fine with, and think very highly of, individuals associated
   with the organization.  (Chava Lapin of NYC, for example, is
   an outstanding Yiddish teacher and literary resource.)

5. Newspapers: the days of daily Yiddish papers are gone, but
   both the Algemeiner Journal (Chassidish) and Forverts (Arbeter-
   Ring) publish weekly and are widely distributed.  (I can pick
   up current copies each week at probably two dozen stores in Toronto.)
   Both worth picking up and struggling through once in a while.
   If you're in New York (Boro Park, for example), you can come across
   other Chassidic newspapers (Der Yid is one) as well.

6. Books: Jewish community centre libraries often have interesting
   collections of Yiddish books, as do some university libraries.
   There's still some new stuff coming out.  For kids (or adults
   just getting started), there's not a lot of material, but you
   can find it if you look hard enough.  Sources include the stores
   in Boro Park and Williamsburg, and the Arbeter-Ring and YIVO.
   Run-of-the-mill Judaica stores have very little in Yiddish.
The National Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, MA, is a wonderful
source of books.  They collect old Yiddish books, cast off by the
older generation or found in collections after a death, and catalogue
and organize them, and then RECIRCULATE them to the world.  They
supply libraries all over North America, and you can purchase some
books directly from them.  They will send out a catalogue if you ask.

7. Learning Yiddish: some universities offer courses (I took
   two at the University of Toronto).  Some school systems do.
   Some Jewish community centres organize classes.  If you hunt
   around, you can find classes.

8. Real Live People Under 50 Who Speak Yiddish And Are Not Chassidim:
   Yes, there are some.  There's a NYC organization called Yugntruf
   for young Yiddish-speakers; they publish a regular magazine.
   The current issue has a whole glossary of computer terminology.
   (Ever wonder how to say dot matrix printer, word processing,
   keyboard, floppy disk, download, surge protector, memory board
   or IBM-compatible in Yiddish?).  Yiddish is taught as a
   subject (i.e., not immersion) in a number of Jewish schools,
   many of which have a Reform and/or Labour-Zionist bent.
   In New York, there's a playgroup called "Pripetchik" which
   meets on Sunday mornings, for families who speak Yiddish to
   their kids.

9. On a personal note: though I grew up knowing no Yiddish,
   I learned it after meeting my wife in 1977.  (Those
   university courses helped.)  We now use 100% Yiddish, no
   exceptions, when speaking with our kids. (With each other,
   we use probably 80% English.)  And the kids are not allowed
   to speak English to us, or to each other.  As a result we
   have a four-year-old and a two-year-old who are completely
   fluent in both English and Yiddish, and are growing up with
   a love of Yiddish and "Yiddish"keit that supplements and complements
   their love of real Yiddishkeit (the Jewish religion without
   which, as others on the net have noted, the Yiddish culture
   would have had no foundation).

10. If you're still reading this far, you probably want to be
    on the Usenet Yiddish mailing list (mail.yiddish).  The
    digests are mixed English/Yiddish, so if you want to write
    *about* Yiddish but don't have the fluency to write *in* Yiddish,
    that's OK.  Drop me a line.

David Sherman
Toronto

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Digest-Message: 03/2
From: uunet!rutgers.edu!VISWANATH%draco.bitnet
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 88 15:38 EST
Subject: yiddish-vokh

Ikh heys Gitl.  Ikh bin Melekh's vayb.  Mir hobn zikh bakent take oyf a
yiddish-redndiker sof-vokh un mir pruvn redn yiddish tsvishn zikh.  Ikh
bin aktiv in Yugntruf, an organizatsye vos shtitst aktivitetn far yugntlekhe
vos viln redn yiddish.  Di yiddish-vokh kumt for yedn zumer (arum Labor  Day)
in shtat New York.  A gantse vokh tut men altsding oyf yiddish -- me shpilt
in sport, me geyt shvimen un zikh shiflen, me hot diskusyes, me zingt lider 
-- vi vayt meglekh oyf yiddish.  Geveyntlekh kumen arum 30-35 dervaksene un
kinder oyfn sof-vokh.  S'iz mestame di beste aktivitet vos yugntruf tut a
gants yor.  Mir hobn oykh leyenkrayzn, shraybkrayzn (creative writing work-
shops), me geyt in yiddishn teater, me hot konferentsn un azoy vayter.  
Oyb du vilst oysgefinen nokh informatsye, shrayb oyfn adress:  Yugntruf,
200 West 72 Street,  New York, New York 10023.  Der telefon in biuro iz
(212)787-6675.
Ikh bin tsufridn vos mir hobn zikh bakent, khotsh nor durkhn kompyuter.


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Digest-Message: 03/3
From: uunet!cs.unc.edu!fsks (Frank Silbermann)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 88 17:11:14 EDT

I just received issue #1 of the Yiddish mailing list.

My parents never spoke anything but English in the house,
but my father can speak Yiddish (if forced).  He came from
Brussels to the U.S. in 1946 at age 18, speaking Yiddish,
French, German and Dutch (Flemish).

Fifteen years ago I took four semesters of German at
the local junior college (in Palatka, Florida).
After becoming fluent in German, I became interested
in Yiddish and Dutch, because of the linguistic similarity.
Unfortunately, by the time I began making progress in Yiddish,
most of my Yiddish-speaking relatives had died.

I find it easy to read and understand Yiddish typed on the network,
but reading published Yiddish is more strenuous for me, because
of the Hebrew alphabet.  I have difficulty in a conversation
if the speaker runs his words together (I still have not grasped
the rhythm of the language), and when I try to talk, my speech
quickly degenerates into German.

When I was younger, a linguist told me that Yiddish was
a gutteral language (meaning that you must pronounce "kh" or harsh "ch" alot).
I thought he meant that Yiddish was a language of the gutter
(which was actually many people's feeling about Yiddish at the time).
I was skeptical.  It seemed reasonable that you could talk about
whatever kind of subject you wanted in Yiddish, not just gutter topics.
However, a few years ago I did find a book of obscene Yiddish sayings,
collected by the Yiddish folklorist Ignaz Bernstein over 100 years ago.
You live and learn!

	Frank Silbermann	fsks@cs.unc.edu  or  mcnc!unc!fsks@decvax


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Digest-Message: 03/4
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 88 14:19:54 EDT
From: uunet!valideast!chb (--Chazz!--)

  Vos machts du?  Long time no hear!  The list is a great idea - please
keep me on.  

I have finished up the first phase of research into the history of
klezmer here in Boston, including an interview with a 93 year old
gold-card member (of the American Federation of Musicians) who played
the wedding circuit in the late teens, early twenties.  Also found out
that the NYC klezmer band led by Jos. Cherniovsky did a New England
tour, sometime in the late 20s.  Someday I will publish, or maybe give a
talk at the next Yiddish festival (that was held here last year at
Boston University).

My interest in Yiddishkeit comes from both my musical interests, as well
as my being an amateur historian.  There is a lot of research to be done
on  what exactly was "American Yiddishkeit" during the period of the
mass immigration to the States.  Probably the same amount of lack of
research as to the Jewish communities of Montreal and Toronto.


		A Tzi Gezunt,
		Charlie Berg

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Digest-Message: 03/5
Date: Fri Oct 21 09:48:55 1988
From: Raphael Finkel <uunet!ms.uky.edu!raphael>

        Gut tsu hern fun aikh (tsi ken men tutsn zikh?).  Yo, mit Penina,
a lebn af ir kop, red ikh biz haynt nor Yiddish.  Bay ir is dos a tate-loshn.
Shoyn alt tsveyterhalb yor, farrikht zi mikh ven ikh hob a toes un red an
english vort.  "No, tate, you don't say 'horse'.  You say 'ferd'!".  A shod
vos zi entfert kmat in gantzn af english, ober dos ken men gring farshteyn:
in ot dem loshn redn dos rov mentshn vos zi hert.  Es iz ale mol ir a vunder
ven a fremder mentch zol redn mit ir a yiddish vort.
        Ikh fil zikh vi mayn onhalt fun yiddish vet nit klekn in tsukunft.
Ikh red vi a kleyn kind nor, mit a loshn-rshime fun an erekh tousnt vort.
A glik vos ikh shem zikh nit ayntrakhtn a nay vort.  Lmoshl, letsnts hobm
mir ongehoybn shikn Penina kroyn in "day care".  Vi ruft men dos on in laytish
mame loshn?  Tog-shitz is akurat ober snemt zikh on a groyl.  Lern-shul
(untertsushaydn fun 'davn-shul') is nit akurat, vayl keyn shul is dos nit.
Hobm mir bashlosn zogn 'kinder-teg'.  Penina fort af kinder teg.  Dos hert
zikh gut oys, vi 'esn-teg'.
        Meyle, vos tut men ontsuhaltn di sprakh un zikh farbesern in ir?
Khmeyn az dos kseyderdike leyenen fun yiddishe bikherlekh iz an entfer, ober
ver hot den tsait?  Nu, loy olekho ligmoyr.

        Kol toyv, un lomir zikh hern!

        Rfoyl

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Digest-Message: 03/6
Date: Tue Oct 25 09:37:00 1988
From: Raphael Finkel <uunet!ms.uky.edu!raphael>

Du vunderst, vos ken meynen "zikh onnemen a groyl".  Nit gekukt in verterbukh,
ober ikh hob dos gehert fun a plite (ikh hob ale mol gezogt a 'plastinke')
vos Bashevis dertseylt zayn mayse "Klayn un groys".  Di gor modne mayse
(un ven hot Bashevis a mol geshibm a mayse vos zol nit zayn modne?) endikt
zikh mit, "Mir zaynen geven nor klayne maydelekh demolt.  Ober mit yorn
shpeter, ven ikh trakht a mol fun dem, nemt mir on a groyl".  Ikh volt es
ibergezetst, "it brings on a shudder".

Yo, di vayb ken farshteyn Yidish, vayl zi is gut bakant i mit Hebreyish, i
mit Daytch, ober ven zi ret, hert zikh oys azoy fil daytshmerish as beser
zi zol shvaygn.  Ikh hob nit gehat di koyekh tsvingen a kleyn kind nebekh
es zol nor redn mameloshn.  Efshr bald, az zi heybt on hern an untershid
tsvishn di shprakhn.

Nokh a tsores bay mir is di "genders".  Afile ven ikh gedenk dem gender fun
a substantiv, un dos is nit ale mol, kumt epes nit in moil di rikhtige
endungen vos gehern tsu dem ort in zatz.  Ale mol muz ikh iberkhazern mit
andere endungen.  Di oyskum muz zayn az Penina vet nit hern keyn untershid.

Du host amol geleyent dos bukh, "Psychoostensives in Yiddish"?  Take a prakht.
Der mkhaber legt oys zeks minim, lmoshl "allomalopetitive" (vinshn shlekhts
af yenem, "zol er lign in drerd") un "autobonocognitive" ("keyn enhore"),
mit moshlim (bfrat fun Royte Pomeratnzn).  Ikh hob bamerkt az dayn briv tsu
mir hot nit keyn tam fun di psikhoostensiver zayt fun der shprakh.  Ot di
zayt is far mir di gor shverste zikh oyslernen.

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END OF ISSUE #3
------------------------
David Sherman, Toronto			Moderator, mail.yiddish
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