Yiddish Mailing List, Issue #12 October 10, 1989 251 lines =============================== Yidish-Vokh in Copake (David Sherman) Lublin Yiddish (Hartmut Schroder, David Sherman, Adam Reed) What Yiddish should I speak? (Jay Shachter) [bamerkung: shik epes, az ikh zol hobn vus aroistsushikn in nekstn numer!] ------------------------ Digest-Message: 12/1 From: dave@lsuc.on.ca (David Sherman) Subject: Yidish-Vokh in Copake Date: Wed Sep 27 19:57:27 EDT 1989 Di Yugntruf Yidih-Vokh in Copake NY iz geven an emesdike mekhaye. Yugntruf iz a grupe fun yunge leit vus redn yidish tsvishn zikh. Einer fun di grinders fun Yugntruf (mit finev un tsvantsik yor tsurik), Dr. Mordkhe Shechter, iz geven dort alz a min "mentor" far alle. Dos heist, er iz geven der eintsiker fun der gantse grupe vus iz geboiren gevorn far der milkhumeh. Er shtamt fun Tshernovitz, in Rumenye. Er iz geven a professor fun yidish in Columbia University lange yurn, un yetzt iz "retired", ober er drikt arois nokh bikher vegen yidish. Zein letste bukh is a verterbukh fun academishe terminologie (ze Digest-Message 06/3). Zein nekste bukh vet zein a verterbukh fun terminologie fun shvengern, kimpet un kleine kinder hodeven. Di yidish-vokh iz geven in Bronx House / Emanuel Adult Vacation Center, in Copake NY. Dos iz nisht veit fun Albany, in erekh drei shoh fun shtot new-york. S'iz a lager far eltere menshn (s'iz dort a kinder-lager oikh), vus batzulen $150 tsu kumen oif ein vokh yeden zumer. Es dakht zikh mir, az di greste teil fun di eltere leit zenen menshn vus kimen yede yur. Der lager hot ort far arum hundert mentshn. Nor in letztn vokh fun zumer, 31 oigust biz 6 september ha-yor, lozn zei ort far 35-40 yunge leit -- di yugntruf-grupe. Zenen mir yugntrufniks derfar geven di eintsike yunge leit in gantsn lager. Alle mentshn dort vus hobn kleine kinder hobn zei mitgebrengt -- un di kinder redn yidish. Khutz unzere kinder zenen gevezn efsher nokh zibn-akht mishpochos mit kinder, un nokh a pur nish-farheirate. In der grupe zenen geven a sakh zeir interesante mentshn, un mentsh vus redn zeir a feinem yidish. Mir hobn altz geton oif yidish in der vokh -- gegesn, geredt, geshpilt netzbol, geshvimen, gezingen, geshpilt "sharadn", shpatsiert in vald, shpatsiert in shtetl (Copake -- kimat drei miles, mit di kleine kinder...) Di grupes repertoir fun yidish-lider iz geven vunderlekh; hinderte lider hot men gezingen, yede nakht, in shtib order in droisn beim lager-feier. Take a mekhaye. Zol men derleben iber a yor, hof ikh az andere fun der post-rshime vel kenen kumen. ------------------------ Digest-Message: 12/2 From: dave@lsuc.on.ca (David Sherman) Subject: Re: Need for information on Lublin Yiddish (Poland) Date: Tue, 26-Sep-89 21:56:57 EDT [posted to soc.culture.jewish] In article <763@chyde.uwasa.fi> his@chyde.uwasa.fi (Hartmut Schroder) writes: > Currently I am writing a review on the book "Lubliner Jiddish" >(Tubingen 1988). The book deals with *spoken* Yiddish as an idiolect >in Lublin (Poland), and concentrates on contrastive linguistic research >on the levels of phonology, morphology, syntax, and discourse. I'd be interested in your comments on the book. To clarify, in case you're not aware: Yiddish was spoken by Jews throughout Europe, and particularly in Poland, before the Holocaust. There's nothing particularly unusual about the Yiddish of Lublin, except that it was apparently chosen as the subject of this book. There are many dialects of Yiddish, all very similar (that is, any native Yiddish speaker can normally understand any other), but there are notable regional differences. Lublin Yiddish is, I presume, similar to that of Polish Yiddish generally (also known as Galitzianer, roughly speaking). > Now I would be happy to receive more information on Lublin Yiddish >in contrast to German, Hebrew, and Slavic languages as well as to other Yiddish is roughly 65% Germanic origin (it developed in parallel with German from 12th century Middle German). It's thus mostly intelligible to German speakers. Another 20% or so (depending on context of the speech) is of Hebrew origin, and thus normally only understandable by Jews. The remainder is a mixture of Slavic and other languages, such as French. >Yiddish "dialects". Furthermore, any information on films and tapes Again, to clarify, Yiddish is a language (despite those who allege it is not). There are indeed various "dialects" of Yiddish, which is what I assume you were referring to. >in authentic Yiddish will be very much appreciated. And, last but not the Contact YIVO Institute for Jewish Research, 1048 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY, USA for information. They have extensive archives, including film and sound archives. +1 212 535 6700, if you care to phone from Finland. Also, the League for Yiddish can be contacted at +1 212 787 6675, address 200 West 72nd Street, #40, New York, NY 10023, USA. Dr. Mordche Shechter, who is reachable at the League for Yiddish, is a former professor of Yiddish at Columbia University who is wonderfully knowledgeable about Yiddish language and dialects. (His own dialect is that of Czernowitz in Romania, now the town of Chernovtsy in the USSR.) >least, if somebody in the net happen to be (or to know of a person who is) >a native speaker of Lublin Yiddish, please let me know. I speak a virtual Stashiv (Staszow) Yiddish. That is, I was born in Canada and my parents don't speak Yiddish, but I have adopted the dialect of Yiddish spoken by my wife. She was also born in Canada, but her parents came from Stashiv (where they lived until 1941, when they were taken to concentration camps). Stashiv, according to my atlas, is about 100km from Lublin, and I believe the dialects are pretty similar. When I say I have "adopted" Stashiv Yiddish: we use Yiddish exclusively with our children. This means that I am speaking Yiddish extensively every day (we have 3 kids, oldest aged 5). As my oldest daughter gets older, I need to increase my vocabulary, which I do with the assistance of my wife, my in-laws and a dictionary. We also listen to Yiddish tapes and attend Yiddish-speaking events quite a bit. So... I speak a Yiddish which is close to that of Lublin. My wife's is even more authentic, and my in-laws' yet more so. What did you want to know? >Hartmut Schroder, U of Vaasa, School of Modern Languages, Finland David Sherman Toronto, Canada +1 416 889 7658 ------------------------ Digest-Message: 12/3 From: avr@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (adam.v.reed) Subject: Re: Need for information on Lublin Yiddish (Poland) Date: 28 Sep 89 01:57:41 GMT [also posted to soc.culture.jewish] In article <1989Sep26.215658.1083@lsuc.on.ca>, dave@lsuc.on.ca (David Sherman) writes: > In article <763@chyde.uwasa.fi> his@chyde.uwasa.fi (Hartmut Schroder) writes: > > Currently I am writing a review on the book "Lubliner Jiddish" > >(Tubingen 1988). The book deals with *spoken* Yiddish as an idiolect > >in Lublin (Poland), and concentrates on contrastive linguistic research > >on the levels of phonology, morphology, syntax, and discourse. > > are notable regional differences. Lublin Yiddish is, I presume, > similar to that of Polish Yiddish generally (also known as > Galitzianer, roughly speaking). Not quite. First of all, there never was a "Polish Yiddish". Yiddish was everywhere strongly influenced by local languages; the pre-partition Polish Commonwealth consisted of what today are four separate countries, Poland, Lithuania, Byelorussia and the Ukraine, plus parts of Moldavia and Latvia; it was very heterogeneous linguistically. Most Jews spoke Yiddish, although about 25% spoke mostly Polish, 10% (largely Sepharadim and Karaim) Hebrew, and about 5% other languages. Depending on location, the rural gentry might speak Polish, Lithuanian, or Tatar; the peasants Polish, Lithuanian, Byelorussian, Ukrainian, Kashubian, Latvian etc., city people German, Polish, Scottish, Armenian and even Italian. At least 10% of the words in spoken Yiddish came from the locally spoken languages of each area, and so Yiddish differed considerably from place to place. Lublin Yiddish differed considerably from Galitzianer Yiddish. In Galitzia, the peasants spoke the Ruthenian dialect of Ukrainian; the rural gentry spoke Polish, and the non-Jewish city people Armenian, German, or Italian. Galitzianer Yiddish was influenced by all of these. In Lublin, on the other hand, everybody except Ashkenazi Jews spoke Polish. Lublin Jews used to tell some wonderful jokes about Galitzianer Yiddish, and the misunderstandings its speakers were prone to make when hearing "pure" Lublin Yiddish. > >least, if somebody in the net happen to be (or to know of a person who is) > >a native speaker of Lublin Yiddish, please let me know. > > I speak a virtual Stashiv (Staszow) Yiddish. That is, I was born > in Canada and my parents don't speak Yiddish, but I have adopted > the dialect of Yiddish spoken by my wife. She was also born in > Canada, but her parents came from Stashiv (where they lived until > 1941, when they were taken to concentration camps). Stashiv, > according to my atlas, is about 100km from Lublin, and I believe > the dialects are pretty similar. In the old country 100km is a long distance. Around Staszow/Stashiv, the peasants spoke Ukrainian and the gentry Tatar or Polish. I have not heard your wife's parents, but I would bet it is closer to Galitzianer than to Lublin Yiddish. Adam (Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com) [Thanks for the corrections, Adam. You're right that my in-laws' Yiddish is similar to a Galitzianer Yiddish. DS] ------------------------ Digest-Message: 12/4 Subject: Re: Need for information on Lublin Yiddish (Poland) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 89 11:16:15 CDT From: class@ihlpy.att.com (Jay F Shachter) I, like David Sherman, am trying to reconstruct Yiddish as a living language in my family. I would like to know exactly what dialect I should speak -- I want to speak the dialect of my father's family. My father was from a small town in Poland that I'll bet even you never heard of, called Bodzentyn (the Yiddish-speaking inhabitants called it "Bye-zoo-cheen"). The nearest city was Kielce (of 1946 pogrom fame). Bodzentyn was about half Jewish and half Gentile, and although it would be considered rural by today's standards, it was probably considered urban by pre-1939 Polish standards (i.e., it had a grocery/hardware store). My father's family owned the town mill. Up until now I have been speaking the "Polish" dialect of Yiddish, which to me means that I say "mishpookha", "beekh", "flahysh", and "shnahdr" instead of "mishpokha", "bookh", "fleysh", and "shnahydr". It also means that I say "zhahbeh" rather than "frosh" and I say "pozhemkez" rather than "erdberren". But I would like to localize my dialect more precisely, so that I can know when to substitute my regional vocabulary or pronounciation for that in the textbooks. For example, I know that in many (probably most) parts of Poland people said "millokh" rather than "milkh" -- and they certainly said "finniv" rather than "finf" -- even though standard Yiddish orthography does not acknowledge those pronounciations. Can you tell me how I should be speaking Yiddish? All the people from Bodzentyn to whom I have access are old, and their Yiddish has been so clearly influenced by their new surroundings (e.g., "vindow" rather than "fenster") that I must suspect their pronounciation. Jay F ("Yaakov") Shachter class@ihlpy.att.com [I can't find Bodzentyn on any of my atlases, but Staszow (Stashiv) is very close to Kielce. Where exactly is Bodzentyn? - DS] ------------------------ END OF ISSUE #12 ------------------------ David (Daniel Moishe) Sherman, Toronto Moderator, mail.yiddish { uunet!attcan {AT&T Sites}!att pyramid!utai utzoo } !lsuc!dave dave@lsuc.on.ca attcan!lsuc!dave@uunet.uu.net