From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:58 EST 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: The nature of Qi
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> [ETH=East-Asian Traditional Healing.] If you substantiate Qi and the other
> elements of ETH terminology, you lose the capacity to view the human being in
> that way that characterizes ETH--and have to substitute modern views which
> run into limits that don't exist in the original paradigm. For instance: I

Hmmm... I think I still don't quite understand how the substantiation of Qi
would limit me. In the example you gave, I feel I could think of Qi as a
substance and still know that it is correct to "heal the lifestyle" rather
than just pouring it in. 

Sorry, but I still have to ask: How does substantiating Qi cause me to lose
the capacity to view the human being in that way that characterizes ETH?

KK

(P.S. My apologies for asking so many questions, but I really want to learn!)





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Subject: Re: Science and TCM (was Re: Qi again)
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>At 13:06 16-01-95 GMT, Norm., our Moderator wrote:
>
>
>>The question of whether or not points and channels exist from the 
>>standpoint of Western science is indeed one worth having, and one in 
>>which I take a personal interest. To the extent that such discussions
>>revolve around increasing mutual understanding, this is fine. If Jan
>>or others intend to take the stance that we don't know what we're
>>talking about, or the Western science is somehow superior to what we
>>do, I will close the topic. 
>>
>>In the latter form, it might be more appropriate in the USENET 
>>newsgroup misc.health.alternative, or even the sci.med hierarchy.
>>
>>Norm. (OrMed Moderator)]
>
>I didn't subscribe to OrMed to fight or disagree.
>Believe me, I respect TCM and the TCM-practitioners who have shown in this
>list that they have studied Chinese and Indian philosophies very seriously.
>But I disagree with the statement that TCM and Science are incompatible.
>I hate Fundamentalism!
>What about all those Chinese research institutes investigating acupuncture
>and herb physiolgy and pharmacology?
>Don't you think that better understanding of chinese medicine is needed for
>better treatment of patients?
>Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands

Dear Jan, 
  Please do not feel that everyone on this conference feels that science
and Chinese medicine are incompatable; I for one do not.  However, how can
one understand the deep internal logic of Chinese medicine without deep
study, before one can translate it into another paradigm, i.e. Western
science?  There cannot be a conflict when there is mutual respect of
disciplines.
  Understand, Jan, that there are individuals that would like to completely
discard Chinese medical theory based on yin/yang and wu xing, and
retranslate it into a physiological understanding akin to modern
biomedicine. I, for one, feel it would be a great mistake to throw away
3000 years of acquired wisdom and PRINCIPLE for ever-changing modern
research ideas which are fragmented and speculative.  Modern medicine
itself is on the verge of great changes as it slowly embraces chaos theory,
complexity theory and systems theory from modern physics.  It is then when
compatability can arise, in my opinion.  
   In what CONTEXT do meridians and points exist or not exist?  What makes
modern scientific methodology more 'real' than classical Chinese medicine's
understanding of the body and mind? Do not both approaches treat and effect
changes on human health?

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.




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On Jan 21, Jan wrote

But I disagree with the statement that TCM and Science are incompatible.
I hate Fundamentalism!
What about all those Chinese research institutes investigating acupuncture
and herb physiolgy and pharmacology?
Don't you think that better understanding of chinese medicine is needed for
better treatment of patients?

It is not a question so much of fundamentalism as much as an observed bigotry
from the "science" of biochemical medicine. In the US, "science" is only done
by recognized research institutions that get money to skew their research in
the direction of the sponsors and the powers that be. Between that and the
dependence on machinery that is 1/1000th as sensitive as it needs to be to
the body and its functions plus those who are sure enough of what they
presentl;y see to pronounce that they know it all.... I'm not quite so sure
of the attitude of scientific inquiry. 
True science is in the power of observation over the millenia, and this can
include the gross information derived from testing, as it will be. To be
truthful, though, biochemical science has not yet been around long enough to
meet the requirements of Oriental medical science. We should continue to
observe what they are doing and integrate what is useful, but to attempt to
fit what is not yet perceivable by methodology available into a corrupt
theoretical framework will have to wait for the time being. I enjoy reading
the theories and such of those in academia who are weaving such things, but
the framework I use makes sense to me and I would much prefer to understand
what they do within my understanding of the universe until their house is
more in order. It works better for my patients.
David Molony 
Acuman1@aol.com



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On Jan 21st Avi Z stated that:
(Did you know that about 30%
of accupuncturists in the U.S. are M.D.'s as well ? ) have submitted
a 500 page long study which outlines the effectiveness of Accupuncture
for various disorders.

I'd like an MD's license for a 200 hour training, 100 on video, if I could. I
realize that many are continuing to study, but I wonder if they are the only
ones allowed to do studies if we will get any results.
The 500 page study was actually a group of studies put together by a number
of people for the FDA reclassification of needles. Of course, the problem may
be that only MD's and DO's will be able to be reimbursed, but we have yet to
have that thrust upon us. I, personally am not big on dealing with medicare
and such, but the alternative seems to be what is ahppening in California
where many OM people are working second jobs to stay alive, personal charisma
and experience aside.  I'll not go further in order to avoid political
discussion, which is not part of this forum, but if you want, you can contact
me personally.
David Molony
101 Bridge Street
Catasauqua, PA 18032
Acuman1@aol.com



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On January 18th Paul Iannone stated:

: where is the
historical precedence for considering alcohol appropriate as a carrier in
general?

The traditionalist would have to address that question before submitting
their patients en masse to such experimentation. The mixer is free to believe
their own logic and ignore the question of tradition. Ignore it as they will,
the proponents of this practice still bear the burden of proof in my mind. :


I submit that one of the chief differences between the eclectics (Western
herbalists) besides using single herbs instead of formulations and using
different formulations of alcohol and other extractors to remove specific
constituents of herbs for use (in the typical western fashion of breaking
things down instead of building toward balance) , was that they saw alcohol
as a carrier and little more unless indicated, while the chinese see it as a
herb in itself, and thus it has the ability to change the essence of the
formulation. This is why alcohol mixtures did occur, but herbs were mostly
used as decoctions, since water is essentially neutral. 
It does remain true that to rely on tradition can provide the relative safety
of possibly finding the missing link in the causual chain of imbalances
easier because of being able to find where similar occurances have happened
previously. However, it may also be true that to observe carefully what is
being expressed by the person in their imbalance can lead to the answer in
even the most complicated (by means of previous treatment or perhaps
mistreatment) cases, if there wasn't a deep seated poisoning, which I have
seen only with conventional medication. 
The most important thing in working with a variety of the tools is to have a
single outlook that is flexible enough to encompass all forms of medicine
unjudgementally and empirically. This is true science, and that is why I use
ETH ( the first three letters in ethnobotony, interestingly enough) as the
pragmatically philosophical background from which I look at and describe
everything else in medicine. 
David Molony



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             (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)             (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: The nature of Qi
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At 21:01 13-01-95 +0200, Jan Nauta wrote:
>>
>>Hmm.. I read a text that was translated from Chinese and it used words like
>>"deficient" and presented Qi like it was "substatiated." 
>>
>>How about his "Chinese Medicine?" I bought it at the same time I bought
>>"The Web That Has No Weaver," but I thought I'd read this latter book first.
>>Incidently, do you think these would be good places to start?
>>
>Let's not discuss translated chinese texts, unless a Chinese who is expert
>in classical chinese, classical medical Chinese, modern medical language and
>fluently in English monitors that discussion.
>Where is P.Unschuld? Is he on the Ormed-List?
>
>Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands
>
>[I would mention here that one of the reasons for the existence of this
>list is to discuss translated Chinese texts. They are, after all, the
>basis for Western practice of TCM. Of course, it would be nice to have 
>all sorts of linguists and experts around on the list, but there is much 
>to be found in the texts we already have available. Even Paul Unschuld 
>has his critics, and there is plenty of disagreement among even those 
>Chinese who are expert in all of the above. Translation, especially from 
>Chinese to English is not a science, but a very complex inexact art. The 
>discussion of such efforts, and the use of them as references is well 
>within the scope of this list.
>
>Norm (OrMed Moderator)]

Aren't there native Chinese experts available. or Internet-contacts with
Chinese Academies for TCM for consultation?
Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands

[There are lots of them. Finding agreement among them is difficult in
regards to translation issues, but they are out there. I don't know if 
any of the list members qualify in this category, with the exception 
of Bob Felt. Still, unlike many Western sciences, no one can really be 
said to be an "authority" on these topics, in the same sense that one 
can be an "authority" in plasma physics. Native Chinese must pursue a 
lifelong struggle to understand Western viewpoints, culture and languages 
just as we must struggle to understand the Chinese. There is an uneasy
synthesis between these two efforts, making trouble for any notion that 
there is a "last word" on most translation issues to be settled by some
declared "expert."

Norm (OrMed Moderator)]



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On 1/24/95, Jan Nauta asked:

: Aren't there native Chinese experts available. or Internet-contacts
: with Chinese Academies for TCM for consultation? Jan Nauta,
: Groningen, the Netherlands 

Helpful as that may seem, it really isn't as useful as you would think. My
experience with modern Chinese is that they are as caught by the modern
implications of ancient terminology as modern Westerners. Most, even in the
ETH community, are perfectly happy to define Qi as energy. As for
'experts'...in some cases German and French scholars are better able to be
called experts, since their study has been of longer standing, and they had
long access to texts that weren't generally available in China for a hundred
years.

Then there's the question of what constitutes proper English translation.
Look at the Wiseman translation work. Highly controversial. And yet,
decidedly clear of the usual simple misconceptions. His 'errors' are larger
than mistakes. They are caught up in questions of universality vs. personal
conception.

I think a lot of our problems are due to complex misconceptions, and we
should perhaps be proud of them, in the sense that at least they aren't
simply denotative errors. What a wonderfully broad tradition, complete with
all sorts of shadowy corners! Lots of interesting ideas.

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).



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: Dear  friends:

  I am a looking for places in USA from where I could buy materials for acu
  puncture, eletro acupuncture,shiatsu,laser  puncture, herbs,and so on.
  Any fax numbers,E-mail,adress and phone numbers would be really apreciated.
  1-800 numbers cannot be acessed from outside USA, so please don't post it.

  I thank you all in advance for any information .

   with

  harmony, love,
  and justice

  aldo@ax.ibase.br



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At 10:59 22-01-95 -0800, Z'ev Rosenberg wrote:

>>
>>I didn't subscribe to OrMed to fight or disagree.
>>Believe me, I respect TCM and the TCM-practitioners who have shown in this
>>list that they have studied Chinese and Indian philosophies very seriously.
>>But I disagree with the statement that TCM and Science are incompatible.
>>I hate Fundamentalism!
>>What about all those Chinese research institutes investigating acupuncture
>>and herb physiolgy and pharmacology?
>>Don't you think that better understanding of chinese medicine is needed for
>>better treatment of patients?
>>Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands
>
>Dear Jan, 
>  Please do not feel that everyone on this conference feels that science
>and Chinese medicine are incompatable; I for one do not.  However, how can
>one understand the deep internal logic of Chinese medicine without deep
>study, before one can translate it into another paradigm, i.e. Western
>science?  There cannot be a conflict when there is mutual respect of
>disciplines.
>  Understand, Jan, that there are individuals that would like to completely
>discard Chinese medical theory based on yin/yang and wu xing, and
>retranslate it into a physiological understanding akin to modern
>biomedicine. I, for one, feel it would be a great mistake to throw away
>3000 years of acquired wisdom and PRINCIPLE for ever-changing modern
>research ideas which are fragmented and speculative.  Modern medicine
>itself is on the verge of great changes as it slowly embraces chaos theory,
>complexity theory and systems theory from modern physics.  It is then when
>compatability can arise, in my opinion.  
>   In what CONTEXT do meridians and points exist or not exist?  What makes
>modern scientific methodology more 'real' than classical Chinese medicine's
>understanding of the body and mind? Do not both approaches treat and effect
>changes on human health?
>
I enjoyed your reply. I agree!
I disagree totally with those people who want to 'translate' Chinese
medicine into modern biomedical language.
Chinese medicine is based on care, experience and tradition (handing over).
Chinese medical theory is not a theory in the way we Westerners, who
basically all have been educated in the western scientific paradigma, are
used to interprete a theory, and test, reject or accept it.
For some people Chinese medical theory seems to be too Holy for serious and
critical analysis.
With such attitude TCM can't be improved anymore, because it is already perfect.
I can't believe that. I have the impression that the health condition and
life expectancy of the average American or European is still better than for
the Chinese.
BTW, the Chinese health situation improved considerable after introduction
of Western medicine. One might therefore conclude that traditional medicine
has only a limited value.
Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands
TCMA, Traditional Chinese Medicine Association



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Thu Jan 26 12:58 EST 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: TCM testing western medicine?
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From: P_Iannone@lamg.com
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On 1/24/95, margot asked:

: Have western treatments ever been subjected to comparative testing by 
: TCM standards of effective healing? What I mean is this: Are there
: any  studies, where patients have been diagnosed with a particular
: pattern  of disharmony according to eight principles, then turned
: over to an MD  for 'conventional' diagnosis and treatment, and after
: a report of success from the MD, re-examined according to eight
: principles?  

Certainly, this is what every practitioner does daily, though I can't think
of any particular studies that have been done on this, except in China's New
Medicine, and the Flaws work we discussed last week, _Something New Something
Old_, which looks at conventional drugs from the East-Asian Traditional
Healing standpoint.

I do this all the time, and have become skilled at identifying the effects of
recreational drugs, and frequently have to determine whether a particular
drug has caused an imbalance. ETH has a very productive manner of thinking
about such things.

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).



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Cc: kanon@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: The nature of Qi
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>
>Hmm.. I read a text that was translated from Chinese and it used words like
>"deficient" and presented Qi like it was "substatiated." 
>
>How about his "Chinese Medicine?" I bought it at the same time I bought
>"The Web That Has No Weaver," but I thought I'd read this latter book first.
>Incidently, do you think these would be good places to start?
>
Let's not discuss translated chinese texts, unless a Chinese who is expert
in classical chinese, classical medical Chinese, modern medical language and
fluently in English monitors that discussion.
Where is P.Unschuld? Is he on the Ormed-List?

Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands

[I would mention here that one of the reasons for the existence of this
list is to discuss translated Chinese texts. They are, after all, the
basis for Western practice of TCM. Of course, it would be nice to have 
all sorts of linguists and experts around on the list, but there is much 
to be found in the texts we already have available. Even Paul Unschuld 
has his critics, and there is plenty of disagreement among even those 
Chinese who are expert in all of the above. Translation, especially from 
Chinese to English is not a science, but a very complex inexact art. The 
discussion of such efforts, and the use of them as references is well 
within the scope of this list.

Norm (OrMed Moderator)]


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Sat Jan 28 20:05 EST 1995
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Subject: Re: Science and TCM (was Re: Qi again)
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Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands TCMA, Traditional
: Chinese Medicine Association  said, on Jan 26, 1995:

: For some people Chinese medical theory seems to be too Holy for
: serious and critical analysis. With such attitude TCM can't be
: improved anymore, because it is already perfect. I can't believe
: that. 

Well, not to flame you, but this is a strawman fallacy. You put words in a
proposed contestants mouth and then point to their absurdity. But I have seen
no one on this list yet who has proposed that East-Asian Traditional Healing
is too Holy for serious and critical analysis, or that 'TCM is perfect'
(something I would agree 'TCM' isn't, especially).

: I have the impression that the health condition and life
: expectancy of the average American or European is still better than
: for the Chinese. 

So what? This kind of guesswork we could do without. China is still immensely
poor, has very poor infrastructure, has terrible industrial pollution, and
relies on night soil fertilizer. It's amazing they aren't all dead.

: BTW, the Chinese health situation improved
: considerably after introduction of Western medicine. 

So what? 

: One might
: therefore conclude that traditional medicine has only a limited
: value. 

You might, perhaps, but this comparison is exactly what is not appropriate to
this group. I would argue that any one-to-one correlation between a system of
'medicine' and a system of 'healing' is bound to be in error. Shall we use
Scutellaria to fight typhoid? Probably not. Should we use Prozac to fight
Spirit imbalance? Probably not. 

Is it better to remove Heat from the Blood in a Beng lou case, or do a
hysterectomy? After all, a uterus in a menopausal woman is only of 'limited
value.' There is no basis for adequate comparison, the goals of a system of
healing being eventual wholeness--the goal of a system of medicine being
quick 'disease' removal.



P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Sat Jan 28 20:06 EST 1995
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> BTW, the Chinese health situation improved considerable after introduction
> of Western medicine. One might therefore conclude that traditional medicine
> has only a limited value.


This is not to argue that TCM can meet the entire health care needs of a 
polulation, but consider that at the same time Western medicine was 
introduced in China, sweeping public health measures and sanitation were 
also introduced, and the economic condition of the average citizen was 
improved as well. These measures dramatically improved the health of 
Westerners when introduced there, and surely contributed to the 
improvement in the health of the Chinese. It is not all due to 
conventional medicine.




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X-Original-Envelope-From: donews!uunet.uu.net!vanguard!vanguard.hmp.com!nicholsj Fri, 27 Jan 95 09:56:25 PST
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I work for a Publishing Company that sells a good Chinese Herbalist Handbook
by Dagmar Ehling 700+ pages. It sells for $34.95 (Shipping to Europe is
$2.50 per book plus $22.00 per order) Orders of 5 or more get a 10% dis-
count. I feel confident to recommend the book because it has gotten some
very good reviews (I could fax them to you) and some of the best acupunc-
turists I know use it. You can inquire from them: orders@bookstore.hmp.com
or info@bookstore.hmp.com  Fax# 505/471-4424
I use Chinese herbs exclusively (when I need medicine) and so I am a great
supporter of oriental medicine. So also is the president of High Mountain
Press, which is why he published this book, when most of his titles are 
technical computer texts. 
Sincerely, toward whole health
Jean Nichols



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Mon Jan 30 10:11 EST 1995
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Subject: Re: Science and TCM (was Re: Qi again)
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At 12:41 26-01-95 GMT, P_Iannone@lamg.com wrote:
>Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands TCMA, Traditional
>: Chinese Medicine Association  said, on Jan 26, 1995:
>
>: For some people Chinese medical theory seems to be too Holy for
>: serious and critical analysis. With such attitude TCM can't be
>: improved anymore, because it is already perfect. I can't believe
>: that. 
>
>Well, not to flame you, but this is a strawman fallacy. You put words in a
>proposed contestants mouth and then point to their absurdity. But I have seen
>no one on this list yet who has proposed that East-Asian Traditional Healing
>is too Holy for serious and critical analysis, or that 'TCM is perfect'
>(something I would agree 'TCM' isn't, especially).
>..........

Let me put it in another way:
Does it make sense to discuss the possibility that the effects of
acupuncture and traditional chinese formulas can be explained by modern
physiology and pharmacology?

Are you prepared to consider the possibility that some of the traditional
chinese formulas are of no therapeutic value?

Is it possible to organise a close cooperation between TCM-therapists
(including their indispensible experience) and scientists (physiologists,
psychologists, pharmacologists etc.)?

Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands
TCMA, Traditional Chinese Medicine Association



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Tue Jan 31 10:16:11 1995
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From: am994@freenet.carleton.ca
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Being new to the list and would like to introduce myself.

I have a bachelor degree in electrical engineering but have never 
worked as such. Instead I spend 10 years as a publisher and 
science writer in Bulgaria.  Now, located in Ottawa, Canada 
I maintain good relationship with the Canadian College of Natural 
Healing. It is a private vocational institution offering training 
in homeopathy, iridology, herbology and shiatsu (a massage 
technique).

Joining the list I expect to learn more about the traditional 
medicine, and communicate with people having non-traditional 
thinking. Also a few weeks ago, I received an English language 
manuscript by the most prominent herbologist in Bulgaria. 
Therefore I am trying to find out if publishing the book would be of any
interest in North America.

Any advice and comments are welcome.

Vasko Delev


--
*******  i-LINKS.The Business Connection  *******
Ottawa, Canada P:(613) 746-0377, F:(613) 746-9606
*************************************************


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Tue Jan 31 10:16:48 1995
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(this is Jan)
>> BTW, the Chinese health situation improved considerable after introduction
>> of Western medicine. One might therefore conclude that traditional medicine
>> has only a limited value.
>
>
(this is Paul B.)
>This is not to argue that TCM can meet the entire health care needs of a 
>polulation, but consider that at the same time Western medicine was 
>introduced in China, sweeping public health measures and sanitation were 
>also introduced, and the economic condition of the average citizen was 
>improved as well. These measures dramatically improved the health of 
>Westerners when introduced there, and surely contributed to the 
>improvement in the health of the Chinese. It is not all due to 

Exactly. It is not possible make the kind of leap Jan made with any
kind of certainty because it is not possible to isolate the variable.
Indeed, access is another vector that would apply. In fact, if I
remember correctly, the people of Japan are significantly healthier
than those in the US, and TCM is commonly used there also. I believe
the same is true in Singapore. If I am right, then this is a significant
counter argument which would indicate that other factors need to be
considered. I'm surprised such a strong proponent of science as Jan
should have made such an assertion.

At any rate, I wonder if this is getting off the subject, or how
exactly it relates. I don't really see the connexion.

				-- Chris.


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	Would the person from Bastyr University who signed up for this 
list please EMAIL me as soon as possible.

	Thank you.

wprensky@netcom.com
William L. Prensky, OMD, L.Ac., FNAAOM


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>At 12:41 26-01-95 GMT, P_Iannone@lamg.com wrote:


>>..........
>
>Let me put it in another way:
>Does it make sense to discuss the possibility that the effects of
>acupuncture and traditional chinese formulas can be explained by modern
>physiology and pharmacology?
>
>Are you prepared to consider the possibility that some of the traditional
>chinese formulas are of no therapeutic value?
>
>Is it possible to organise a close cooperation between TCM-therapists
>(including their indispensible experience) and scientists (physiologists,
>psychologists, pharmacologists etc.)?
>
 By what and whose criteria would it be determined the therapeutic value of
chinese herbal formulas?  What is a therapeutic result? Biomedicine and
Chinese medicine have different criteria for clinical success.  Is
biomedicine prepared to consider the possibility that some of its
medications are of no therapeutic value?  That routine HRT or hysterectomy
is not therapeutically sound?
  The close cooperation you and others seek is possible, but only when
Chinese medicine is seen to the public, biomedical practioners, and even
many of its own practitioners to be a powerful, valid therapeutic entity in
its own right.

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Thu Feb  2 10:11:23 1995
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Subject: Re: TCM testing western medicine?
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On 1/24/95, margot (myself) asked:

: Have western treatments ever been subjected to comparative testing by 
: TCM standards of effective healing? What I mean is this: Are there

Paul Iannone replied: (partial quotes)

>Certainly, this is what every practitioner does daily, though I can't think
>of any particular studies that have been done on this, except in China's New
>Medicine, and the Flaws work we discussed last week, _Something New Something
>Old_, which looks at conventional drugs from the East-Asian Traditional
>Healing standpoint.

Is China's New Medicine a journal? 

Part of the reason for my original question is this: We seem to live in a
world where the word 'study' seems to guarantee credibility - I don't 
want to discuss whether this is good or bad - it simply is. It may help 
people of this time and world to better appreciate the connections and 
differences amongst various medical traditions if Oriental Medicine (to 
use the term of the mailing list) was to be presented in a format which 
people are familiar with - i.e. 'studies'. There are plenty of studies 
looking at meridians and points from the 'Western medical' eye - and 
seemingly very little from the other perspective. (i.e. looking at 
"Western" treatment principles in terms of patterns of disharmony)

This may lead to the (wrong) impression that somehow one tradition is
capable of conducting studies about the other, but not vice versa -
mounting into the (wrong) conclusion that the body of knowledge of the one
doing the examining is more authoritative. Consequently, it seems to me 
that practicioners of Oriental Healing traditions should conduct and 
publish studies - lots of them. 

(just to explain: My perspective is biased from participating in a project 
dealing with our "Weltbild" (world-image), the conception people have of 
reality.)

		margot

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Hi everyone,

another request to educate a newcomer: I noticed that people use 'TCM' 
and 'ETH' to mean different things. I am unaware of the difference - 
in the (german-spoken) courses I attended we were introduced to the 
term Traditional Chinese Medicine to mean exactly that, not referring to 
any particular school or tradition, but as a generic term including 
all medical (in the sense of healing) traditions rooting in the Nei Jing.

If there is more subtlety to it than that, I'd much appreciate being 
educated about it. 

Thanks,
		margot

[ ETH is a term used by Paul Iannone, a list member here. He prefers
it to TCM. It is not in wide use; Paul is about the only one I
know who uses it. Most schools and books use TCM (Traditional
Chinese Medicine), Classical Chinese Medicine or Oriental Medicine.
For the purposes of OrMed list materials, I use either TCM or
Oriental Medicine (OrMed). I'll leave it to others to debate the 
usefulness or value of one term or another in other forums.

Norm. (OrMed Moderator) ]

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Subject: Re: Science and TCM (was Re: Qi again)
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On Jan 30, 1995, Jan Nauta said:
: Let me put it in another way:
: Does it make sense to discuss the possibility that the effects of
: acupuncture and traditional chinese formulas can be explained by
: modern physiology and pharmacology?

Sense? Fine, let it make sense. But the approach is a kind of
ethnocentrism--East-Asian Traditional Healing needs validation by Western
scientific means before it is valid. Wrong. The theory of healing in ETH is
not some kind of naive code utilized until science could come along and bail
us out with 'facts.'
 
: Are you prepared to consider the possibility that some of the
: traditional chinese formulas are of no therapeutic value?

Why would you conceive that this process of investigation isn't ongoing
within East-Asian Traditional Healing all the time? It presupposes a kind of
foggy-headedness in ETH to presume this is some kind of novel idea. 

Still, what are the methods for that assessment? Science? Science, as
practiced, continues to be rather misleadingly convenient. Just because this
convenience leads to discoveries shouldn't confuse anyone that science is
going to reveal all things. 

You really can't do great science on healing, that is clear. Statistical
studies, and even they are less than wholly satisfying.
 
: Is it possible to organise a close cooperation between
: TCM-therapists (including their indispensible experience) and
: scientists (physiologists, psychologists, pharmacologists etc.)?

Go for it. But don't expect those of us Archaic Healer types to care too much
about what you're 'uncovering.' When you get around to considering what
consciousness and Spirit actually are, let us know...we'll have a lot to add
to that meta-scientific discussion. By then, convenience will have failed,
and science will seem like a vacuum cleaner whose nozzles just can't clean
every crack of Mystery and should never have expected to. Meanwhile, I'll
just continue to heal and meditate on the 'skirts' of the self-validating
Dao, if that's OK with you.
 
: Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands
: TCMA, Traditional Chinese Medicine Association



P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).


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Jan Nauta:
>Let me put it in another way:
>Does it make sense to discuss the possibility that the effects of
>acupuncture and traditional chinese formulas can be explained by modern
>physiology and pharmacology?

I don't know that it does. You seem to be making an assumption of isomorphism,
which may or may not be correct. To be honest, I'm not so sure they
are both just different ways of saying the same thing. There is certainly
overlap, but they both have their strengths and weaknesses. This may
because they look at different characteristics, and therefore address
some different problems.

I also think the distiction is not between TCM and "modern" physio and
pharamacology. That implies that TCM has been static all these years,
and nothing new is happening. And that is certainly not true. Work
is on-going in advancing TCM's abilities, and developing new formuae.
I think your word usage perhaps betrays a subconscious bias?

>Are you prepared to consider the possibility that some of the traditional
>chinese formulas are of no therapeutic value?

Perhaps, but I am doubtful that is the case with most formulae since
they have been tested quite a bit (some of the older ones, anyway).
Then again, are you prepared to admit that some Western medicines suffer
from this very same defect? (They do).

>Is it possible to organise a close cooperation between TCM-therapists
>(including their indispensible experience) and scientists (physiologists,
>psychologists, pharmacologists etc.)?

I doubt it if they can't accept each other as equals.


			-- Chris.


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sat Feb  4 10:07:31 1995
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As a staff person with the Multiple Sclerosis Foundation, Inc. I am 
interested in alternative therapies that people have tried to help them 
with MS symptoms management. I was referred to this address by Paul 
Iannone who suggested that readers of this file may have further 
information on Moxibustion as a treatment for MS and perhaps other 
non-traditional treatment options. Our program services department would 
like to hear from those with information to share. Please send me your 
notes or call our program services dept. at 800-441-7055 (Florida). P.S. 
I am a new user to the network and hope this request has been provided in 
the appropriate manner. 


Linda Hamburger
a019735t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sat Feb  4 10:07:36 1995
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: Hi everyone,
: 
: another request to educate a newcomer: I noticed that people use 'TCM' 
: and 'ETH' to mean different things. I am unaware of the difference - 
: in the (german-spoken) courses I attended we were introduced to the 
: term Traditional Chinese Medicine to mean exactly that, not referring to 
: any particular school or tradition, but as a generic term including 
: all medical (in the sense of healing) traditions rooting in the Nei Jing.
: 
: If there is more subtlety to it than that, I'd much appreciate being
:  educated about it. 
: 
: Thanks,
:   margot
: 
: [ ETH is a term used by Paul Iannone, a list member here. He prefers
: it to TCM. It is not in wide use; Paul is about the only one I
: know who uses it. Most schools and books use TCM (Traditional
: Chinese Medicine), Classical Chinese Medicine or Oriental Medicine.
: For the purposes of OrMed list materials, I use either TCM or
: Oriental Medicine (OrMed). I'll leave it to others to debate the 
: usefulness or value of one term or another in other forums.
: 
: Norm. (OrMed Moderator) ]

A quick explanation would include the issues that 1) TCM is a poorly formed
isolated term--CTM would be more useful (analogous to other forms of
_location_ Traditional Healing); 2) TCM ignores the fact that China today is
not China of the past--East-Asia is a better location referent; 3) medicine
is a European term that doesn't include all the practices of healing--ETH is
a system of healing including many non-medical practices. 'Oriental,' a prior
term to East-Asian, suffers from the fact that it is commonly used to refer
to both India and Persia, both of which have their own forms of traditional
healing.

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sat Feb  4 10:07:58 1995
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Subject: Studies, Clinical Validity
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RE: Studies, Standards of Clinical Validity

In general, judgements regarding the value of any study,
including cross-cultural research, depend upon a standard of
clinical validity, a means by which the outcomes of therapeutic
interventions are judged reliably successful.

I am interested in both public and private responses for a piece
I am writing.  The question:  what do people believe to be
the standard of clinical validity for T.C.M?  Implicity, this
question has two parts: 1. What do you believe to be the
traditional standard?  2. What do you believe to be a sufficient
standard in English-speaking world today.

The use of ``you'' is purposeful, I am not in this instance
interested in opinions of biomedical or biolegal standards
but of pracitioners' perceptions of T.C.M.'s standards.
For example, if a practitioner believes they have discovered
a new pattern, what evidence of validity would you require
before adopting that pattern as part of your knowledge of T.C.M.?

Robert L. Felt                               textware!bob@spdcc.com
Redwing Book Co., Inc.                       CIS: 74012,2777
44 Linden Street
Brookline MA 02146


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: Is China's New Medicine a journal? 

New Medicine is an ongoing experiment in China, combining Western and TCM
therapies in Chinese hospitals, in associated wings, with interaction between
practitioners of these paradigms, in an attempt to glean the best of both
systems.
 
[snip, for brevity]
 
: (just to explain: My perspective is biased from participating in a
: project dealing with our "Weltbild" (world-image), the conception
: people have of reality.)
: 
:   margot

Excellent study, that. Study of the impact of 'Weltbild,' which I usually
refer to as paradigm, on science and culture is very revealing. Indeed,
healing and science are not somehow free from culture, no matter how much
proponents of science would like to believe or propose it is. Anthropology is
still not well-integrated into Western culture. Give it another fifty years.

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).


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From: ty@sam.neosoft.com (Bill Terrell)
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X-Status: 

Dear folks,

I have a very strong interest in attending one of the following TCM schools:

1)  American College of TCM --- in San Francisco, California
2)  Southwest Acupuncture College --- in Santa Fe, New Mexico

I would greatly appreciate any and all information/opinions on either of 
these two schools. 

You can send the notes to myself, or the mailing list (others might also 
have an interest in this topic).

Thank you,
Bill Terrell
ty@sam.neosoft.com

---   True words aren't eloquent;
---   eloquent words aren't true.
---   Wise men don't need to prove their point;
---   men who need to prove their point aren't wise.

---   Tao te Ching


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Wed Feb  8 10:18:23 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com, PARACELSUS@teleport.com
Subject: Re: TCM schools - opinions/information wanted
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From: CTM-TRAV <ctm-trav@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
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Regardless of what you hear verbally, it is always a good idea to check 
out any similar institution by requesting statistics regarding their 
graduate success rate, how many people graduate and are working in the 
field, percentage of enrollees to graduate, percentage of graduates to 
successfully become licensed practitioners and questions of that type. 
Get answers from the school you are thinking of attending and from 
whatever state agencies oversee their operations.
Good Luck! Choosing well is your first critical career decision.
Todd Messler, Acupuncture student - final year
CTM-TRAV
ctm-trav@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Creative Travel Management
"Bringing you the WORLD"


 

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Bill Terrell wrote:

> Dear folks,
> 
> I have a very strong interest in attending one of the following TCM schools:
> 
> 1)  American College of TCM --- in San Francisco, California
> 2)  Southwest Acupuncture College --- in Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 
> I would greatly appreciate any and all information/opinions on either of 
> these two schools. 
> 
> You can send the notes to myself, or the mailing list (others might also 
> have an interest in this topic).
> 
> Thank you,
> Bill Terrell
> ty@sam.neosoft.com
> 
> ---   True words aren't eloquent;
> ---   eloquent words aren't true.
> ---   Wise men don't need to prove their point;
> ---   men who need to prove their point aren't wise.
> 
> ---   Tao te Ching
> 
> 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Fri Feb 10 04:09:52 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
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Subject: Request for info re: Moxibustion and MS
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From: Linda Hamburger <a019735t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
content-length: 721
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X-Status: 

As a staff person with the Multiple Sclerosis Foundation, Inc. I am 
interested in alternative therapies that people have tried to help them 
with MS symptoms management. I was referred to this address by Paul 
Iannone who suggested that readers of this file may have further 
information on Moxibustion as a treatment for MS and perhaps other 
non-traditional treatment options. Our program services department would 
like to hear from those with information to share. Please send me your 
notes or call our program services dept. at 800-441-7055 (Florida). P.S. 
I am a new user to the network and hope this request has been provided in 
the appropriate manner. 


Linda Hamburger
a019735t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Wed Mar  8 12:08:25 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Auriculotherapy
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From: mitch@teleport.com (Mitch Stargrove)
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Can anyone help with this?

>To: paracelsus@teleport.com
>From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
>Subject: Auriculotherapy
>Sender: owner-paracelsus@teleport.COM
>Precedence: bulk
>
>I would appreciate if anyone could lead me to an
>Auriculotherapy Society and/or study group anywhere in the
>world.  Thanks.
>
>Nimai Lins
>
>



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Wed Mar  8 12:15:38 1995
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Organization: Argus Computing & Multimedia
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: ADMIN: Quiet times...
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
X-Original-From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
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Hello folks!

First, I'd like to welcome students and faculty of the New
England School of Acupuncture to the OrMed family! Several 
of you have joined recently, and more have expressed interest.

Second, there are some new World Wide Web pages of interest
to Oriental medicine and natural medicine in general. I'll 
be adding links to them from the OrMed WWW page in the next
few days, and posting something about them to the list a bit
later. There also is a new expanded FAQ (including a list of
schools), and two new electronic publications going into the 
FTP site and WWW page. Again, these will be ready in a few 
days.

On to the point at hand...

We've recently been going through some quiet times here at OrMed.
It's been nearly a month since the last post was received, yet we
have over 200 members. Has some catastophe befallen the members
of OrMed? Is it the dreaded OrMed mummy's curse?

In any case, a number of you have written me asking if you are
still on the list, or if something has happened to the list. The
answer is yes: you are writing to me instead of the list.

The OrMed list is an information resource that can bring you many
interesting discussions and other tidbits about Oriental medicine,
but this only works if you participate. There is no external input
to the list, it all comes from the 212 (and growing) OrMed members.

With that many members, I find it hard to imagine that at least 
some of you don't have a question, concern, story, or other 
contribution about Oriental medicine. Don't be shy, speak up!

If some of you have particular concerns about the list, which
are making you less likely to post, and you would like to
discuss them privately, always feel free to drop me an email 
at OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com. 

So dust off the keyboard, and write poetry to an herb. Construct
a sonnet to needles. Tell your best/worse experience with an
acupuncturist. Ask an obscure question about a point that isn't
in the books. 

I need your help to get things back on track.

Thanks!

Norm.

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From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Wed Mar  8 12:08:25 1995
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From: mitch@teleport.com (Mitch Stargrove)
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Can anyone help with this?

>To: paracelsus@teleport.com
>From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
>Subject: Auriculotherapy
>Sender: owner-paracelsus@teleport.COM
>Precedence: bulk
>
>I would appreciate if anyone could lead me to an
>Auriculotherapy Society and/or study group anywhere in the
>world.  Thanks.
>
>Nimai Lins
>
>



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Sat Jan 21 13:52 EST 1995
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Date: 20 Jan 1995 19:32:26 GMT
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Organization: Los Angeles Macintosh Group BBS
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Science and TCM (was Re: Qi again)
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: P_Iannone@lamg.com
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On 1/20/95, Jan Nauta said (in part):
: But I disagree with the statement that TCM and Science are incompatible.
: I hate Fundamentalism!
: What about all those Chinese research institutes investigating
: acupuncture and herb physiolgy and pharmacology? Don't you think
: that better understanding of chinese medicine is needed for better
: treatment of patients? Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands

What about them, and NO (useful, not necessarily needed)(and what does
'better' mean?). I have no problem with expanding ETH knowledge through
Western scientific means, but there are several caveats:

1) such study overemphasizes the medical side, ignoring the many healing
aspects of ETH that cannot be conveniently studied. Western science can find
no convenient way to study many phenomena of life, so the actual domain of
validation never represents a fully-validated idea of life, but rather
reflects the paradigm that develops it--in this case leaving the modern
paradigm as the unstated, unstudied subtext. ETH has a general idea of life
that differs, and most of that idea cannot be validated empirically by this
kind of science. The best we can hope for are population studies, which are
always vulnerable to the one word dismissal: "placebo."

2) this study tends to undermine the original, whole, principles of ETH in
favor of a bastardized culling of the system for easily-rationalized
artifacts. This 'pillage' essentially diverts the culture of study of ETH to
the needs of the modern paradigm--which has a hard time understanding what
isn't known and what needs to be known, even in its own terms, anyhow.

Science is, if we are honest, a highly arbitrary process. What is studied and
why is really not the result of great deliberation, but more of perceived
need and convenience. The AMA would be _delighted_ if some herb healed a
problemsome illness, just by its chemistry! How convenient! (and many TCM and
ETH practitioners would like to have their therapy validated socially,
politically, economically, and even 'factually' by such 'simple
discoveries').

This randomness is exacerbated when it comes to applying that tool to
something as extensive as ETH. Will ETH be left, once the chemists and
physiologists have picked it apart? A real question.

Fundamentalists, or rather, traditionalists, prefer to validate the whole
system, its outlook and manner of understanding, first. It is the experience
of _this_ traditionalist that the ones doing this kind of research have
rarely done the philological, educational, historical, and practical research
first. For this reason, let it be said: _I love fundamentalists!_


---As an aside---L'ev, I am in entire agreement about traditional homeopathy,
and argue for it frequently. My thoughts on the relationships between these
two distinct systems of healing were not fully represented in that post, nor
were they intended to be.

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:58 EST 1995
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Resent-From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
Sender: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
X-Original-From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
Content-Type: text
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X-Status: 

Just a quick note with a few announcements of interest.

1. There is a new version of the FAQ file available. It's getting
   to be quite a large file these days (about 85K) that prints
   out to about 38 pages. Sorry for the size, but there really
   is so very much to write about in this field! Several of you
   sent me some corrections and very good suggestions from the
   last version of the FAQ (at least I know someone is reading
   it). I've incorporated many of those suggestions in the new
   one.

   I encourage you all to get a copy of the new FAQ, and to 
   please read at least the portions regarding posting guidelines
   and such. You can get the FAQ by sending mail to the listserv
   at LISTSERV@bkhouse.cts.com containing the single line:
   FAQ OrMed. Alternatively, you can get the FAQ from the FTP
   site (ftp.cts.com as pub/nkraft/OrMed.FAQ) or from the WWW
   page (URL ftp://ftp.cts.com/pub/nkraft/ormed.html).

2. The list archives for the month of December, 1994 are now
   available on the FTP site. I've updated the WWW page to 
   reflect the changes to the FAQ and to add the new archive,
   but otherwise it hasn't changed much. It will, though, and
   soon.

3. For all of the people who expressed interest in the phone
   book idea, I've only received three entries so far. If you
   are unsure about how to participate, or have questions 
   about it, please drop me a line at OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com.

4. I'm working on a couple of book reviews to add to the Review
   Archive. I also have a short list of things I would like to 
   see reviewed. If any of you are interested in doing one, I'll
   send you the list and we'll try to find who has experience with
   what and see if we can't get a few of these reviews going.
   Remember that these reviews should be complete, but don't have
   to be a monumental project. Any list member is invited to
   participate, and even brief reviews (within the guidelines)
   are welcome. For those of you who don't have the guidelines,
   get the new FAQ. They're in there.

5. For those who expressed interest in participating in the
   Product Literature Archive project, I'd appreciate hearing
   from you. During the conception phase I several companies
   expressed interest in participating. I realize that 
   putting the literature/catalogs together takes time, but
   I'd appreciate a note from all those who are intending to
   contribute to the archive so I can better plan its 
   implementation.

For anyone wondering why some of the new OrMed projects (like the 
Review, Product Literature and Article archives) seem to have 
fairly rigid formats, I guess I should explain what I'm doing.

In reading a long series of files, standardized formats which put 
the same thing in the same place in each file really help move
the process along quickly for both myself in editing them, and
the reader in browsing them. Several net groups are using similar
formats for reviews and address files, and they have proven
themselves very helpful and useful over time.

More importantly, however, each type of file will be run through 
automated processes which extract information for the indicies 
which will be maintained for each project. They also lend 
themselves to automated processing into HTML formats for the 
WWW page. I really do appreciate that the formats are sometimes 
a pain, and I want to commend each of you who put in the time
and effort to follow them.

Thanks!

Norm.


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Sender: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Mixers vs. Straights, was Re: Qi again
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1857
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X-Status: 

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066):
>I, Paul Iannone, said in a previous post:
>
>:> why not practice every system of healing at
>:> once? You will be master of none.
>
>To which David Molony Acuman replied (on 1/16/95):
>
>: This is a famous idiom that continues to be used to segregate mixers
>: from straights, which has never gotten anyone anywhere.
>
>The burden of proof remains on the mixer, then. As I have stated, the worst
>misbehavior and unconscionable experimentation that I have seen has been from
>the mixers. All those who try to be traditional, true to the tradition at
>least in scope, may eventually find out their errors. But synthesists cannot
>find their way so easily.

If I am following the correctly, I agree with Paul. I think two things are
getting confused here, which is leading to this difference.

First, TCM is a *system*, just as Western Medicine and any other form of
healing is a system. The manfestation of TCM is in the herbal formulae,
accupuncture, manipulation (massage), and so forth. The manifestation of
Western Medicine is in pharmaceuticals and such. The system is the framework
for understanding how elements which affect our health work; the manifestation
is the implementation of the system in practical matters.

It may be fine to use substances which are used in the manifestation of one
system of health care in another,  but those substance need to be understoof
within the context of a single system itself. Otherwise, it will not be
possible (or at least it will be very difficult) to predict the effect of
the substance in combination with the rest of the treatment a patient is
receiving. A single system is required to maintain a coherent understanding
of the patient's health, and of how the course of treatment will affect 
him or her.

				-- Chris. cycy@ri.cmu.edu



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:52 EST 1995
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Cc: avi@sclara.qms.com
Subject: Article in "Health" Jan 95
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From: avi@sclara.qms.com (Avi Zelmanov)
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Hi Folks,

Just thought I'd mention an article I read in a magazine
called "Health" (Jan 95 issue I think) which mentions that the FDA
has hired a well-known Accupuncturist who is also an M.D.
to evaluate accupuncture as an effective healing system.

I don't recall the researcher's name, sorry. The article carried
numerous examples of diseases and symptoms (i.e. pain control, Asthma,
etc.) where Western Medicine currently accepts Accupuncture as a valuable
traetment for.  As well, pros and cons, and support/opposition from 
various sources were covered.

The implication in the several pages long article, was that should
the FDA approve of Accupuncture as a "legitimate" healing system,
then Medical Insurance will soon start reimbursing for visits to your
local O.M.D/L.Ac. which will basically upgrade TCM's status from
"Alternative" medicine to "main-stream" medicine, in the USA.
As well, this marks the first time, that an Accupuncturist has been
hired by the US government (especially for that purpose :-)

The article has also mentioned that this researcher together with
some leading accupuncturists and M.D.'s (Did you know that about 30%
of accupuncturists in the U.S. are M.D.'s as well ? ) have submitted
a 500 page long study which outlines the effectiveness of Accupuncture
for various disorders.



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:52 EST 1995
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X-Original-Envelope-From: donews!aol.com!JohnBo111 Fri, 20 Jan 95 10:10:22 PST
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: cancer therapies
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From: JohnBo111@aol.com
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Hello everyone:

My name is John Boik, and I am nearing completion on a book to be entitled
"Cancer and Natural Medicine".  It is intended to serve as an oncology text
for practitioners interested in natural agents.  The book discusses in depth
the mechanisms of cancer (i.e., apoptosis, angiogenesis, invasion, etc.), and
natural agents which may affect those mechanisms. 

The reason I am writing is that I would like to hear from the community
regarding any natural agents which practitioners have found to be useful in
inducing cancer remissions.  If you would be so kind, please send a short
note answering the following questions:

1)  What is the agent(s)?
2)  How many patients have you used the agent with?
3)  What cancers did they have?  What stage?
4)  Were they receiving concurrent conventional treatment?
5)  How successful was the agent (remission rate or other measure of
success)?

No need to send a detailed report, I just want to get a general idea of what
practitioners are using, and what their successes are.

Thank you very much for you help.

John Boik, LAc. (johnbo111@aol.com)



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:52 EST 1995
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         (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
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Subject: Re: Science and TCM (was Re: Qi again)
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From: J.Nauta@uni4nn.iaf.nl (Jan Nauta)
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At 13:06 16-01-95 GMT, Norm., our Moderator wrote:


>The question of whether or not points and channels exist from the 
>standpoint of Western science is indeed one worth having, and one in 
>which I take a personal interest. To the extent that such discussions
>revolve around increasing mutual understanding, this is fine. If Jan
>or others intend to take the stance that we don't know what we're
>talking about, or the Western science is somehow superior to what we
>do, I will close the topic. 
>
>In the latter form, it might be more appropriate in the USENET 
>newsgroup misc.health.alternative, or even the sci.med hierarchy.
>
>Norm. (OrMed Moderator)]

I didn't subscribe to OrMed to fight or disagree.
Believe me, I respect TCM and the TCM-practitioners who have shown in this
list that they have studied Chinese and Indian philosophies very seriously.
But I disagree with the statement that TCM and Science are incompatible.
I hate Fundamentalism!
What about all those Chinese research institutes investigating acupuncture
and herb physiolgy and pharmacology?
Don't you think that better understanding of chinese medicine is needed for
better treatment of patients?
Jan Nauta, Groningen, the Netherlands



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:56 EST 1995
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X-Original-Envelope-From: donews!CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!kanon Fri, 20 Jan 95 10:13:01 PST
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In-Reply-To: <1388769246.13143589@lamgnet.lamg.com> from "P_Iannone@lamg.com" at Jan 13, 95 06:38:37 pm
Resent-Date: Fri Jan 20 10:12:56 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: The nature of Qi (1/2)
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
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> run into limits that don't exist in the original paradigm. For instance: I
> hesitate in many cases to give Qi Boosters to individuals who are
> experiencing illness as a result of poor lifestyle. Sometimes the rule is to
> restore someone _slowly_. If the idea is to simply replenish this missing
> substance, you just pour it in, and away the person goes.

I think I may be in this exact situation. I want the Qi Boosters! But, I
guess I can agree that I must work on my lifestyle first, which I think must
have been very Qi depleting. That I became this way is unfortunate since I
have low Qi to begin with, being born five weeks premature and consequently
developing jaundice.

Later on (around 11 years old) I became very ambitious in school. In high
school, I tacked on sports and heavy spiritual/philosophical pondering.

To make a long story short, I now cannot go to school. I've tried to push 
myself, having dropped out and re-entered many times. Exertion will knock
me out for the next few days. I also have difficulty eating. A few years ago,
I'd never feel hungry, only knowing that I needed food because of the
lethargy and headache. My stomach was constantly feeling bloated and one
mouthful was enough to make me nauseated. Now, I'm a little better, but still
eat sparingly.

Acupuncture seems to have reversed my downward spiral, but I guess it's up
to me now to work on the slow climb back up. I feel I have made good progress
as long as I avoid too much exertion.

Do you have any advice for me? It is really hard to stop my heavy thinking
mind.

> I like both books, but I repeat my recommendation. Qi Gong is a royal road to
> becoming a good healer. 

I'm working on this now, studying Tai Chi and Chi Kung. It is very difficult
to meditate when my mind is rushing about and my body is so weak though...

> advice is to seek to understand the Dao, not just to feel Qi. Cheng
> Man-Ching's books are very good for understanding this, even though he was a
> self-described Confucianist. For instance, he suggests that to learn Tai Ji,
> you must be willing to be thrown a hundred times, to understand once. 

So you'd recommend me starting my study of the Dao with Cheng Man-Ching's
books? I don't mind being thrown a hundred times if it results in under-
standing. I did Judo for a few years. :-)

Kanon



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:57 EST 1995
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X-Original-Envelope-From: donews!electriciti.com!zrosenberg Fri, 20 Jan 95 10:13:36 PST
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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 11:08:25 PST
Resent-Date: Fri Jan 20 10:13:32 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: The Classics and Modern Practice
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From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)
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>Unfortunately, though homeopathics, for instance, can be
>considered the concentrated Yang of herbal substance (and thus considered
on
>a continuum with herbal action), understanding them and their effect on
>Spirit within the system of ETH is impossible. It is not appropriate to
>simply borrow the homeopathic repertory to design combined
>herbal-homeopathic
>formulas.

I agree that with homeopathy we are dealing with a different problem.  I
don't like the mixing of herbal/homeopathic 'formulas', or even most
'combination' homeopathic remedies.   Just as my practice, teaching and
study are based on classical Chinese medicine, I favor classical
homeopathy.  One cannot invent a philosophy of medicine, one must be
squarely based on classical teaching. Although I have had some training in
homeopathy, I feel that any 'synthesis' is yet to come, because of the
great mental fortitude required to synthesize such deep and demanding
systems.  However, I feel there is a potential for an exciting interface
between homeopathy and acupuncture, especially meridian based and
extraordinary vessel treatments (as taught by Dr. Manaka).  The emphasis in
these Japanese systems on minimal stimulus to make global system changes
is, in my mind, very similar to a constitutional remedy approach.  I have
used the inspiration of such homeopathic authors as Rajan Sankaran ("Spirit
of Homeopathy") with many of my patients when using acupuncture.  Soulie de
Morant's book hints at many of these connections.
   A major problem with homeopathic theory is the lack of a syncretic
unifying theory that connects the tremendous amount of information about
patterns and remedies.  Perhaps this is where Chinese medicine can be
helpful in helping to better organize this vast amount of material.  Such
homeopaths as Berkeley Digby in South Africa are already making this
attempt.

Z'ev Rosenberg
   





From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Fri Jan 20 17:58 EST 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements
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Content-Type: text
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Just a quick note with a few announcements of interest.

1. There is a new version of the FAQ file available. It's getting
   to be quite a large file these days (about 85K) that prints
   out to about 38 pages. Sorry for the size, but there really
   is so very much to write about in this field! Several of you
   sent me some corrections and very good suggestions from the
   last version of the FAQ (at least I know someone is reading
   it). I've incorporated many of those suggestions in the new
   one.

   I encourage you all to get a copy of the new FAQ, and to 
   please read at least the portions regarding posting guidelines
   and such. You can get the FAQ by sending mail to the listserv
   at LISTSERV@bkhouse.cts.com containing the single line:
   FAQ OrMed. Alternatively, you can get the FAQ from the FTP
   site (ftp.cts.com as pub/nkraft/OrMed.FAQ) or from the WWW
   page (URL ftp://ftp.cts.com/pub/nkraft/ormed.html).

2. The list archives for the month of December, 1994 are now
   available on the FTP site. I've updated the WWW page to 
   reflect the changes to the FAQ and to add the new archive,
   but otherwise it hasn't changed much. It will, though, and
   soon.

3. For all of the people who expressed interest in the phone
   book idea, I've only received three entries so far. If you
   are unsure about how to participate, or have questions 
   about it, please drop me a line at OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com.

4. I'm working on a couple of book reviews to add to the Review
   Archive. I also have a short list of things I would like to 
   see reviewed. If any of you are interested in doing one, I'll
   send you the list and we'll try to find who has experience with
   what and see if we can't get a few of these reviews going.
   Remember that these reviews should be complete, but don't have
   to be a monumental project. Any list member is invited to
   participate, and even brief reviews (within the guidelines)
   are welcome. For those of you who don't have the guidelines,
   get the new FAQ. They're in there.

5. For those who expressed interest in participating in the
   Product Literature Archive project, I'd appreciate hearing
   from you. During the conception phase I several companies
   expressed interest in participating. I realize that 
   putting the literature/catalogs together takes time, but
   I'd appreciate a note from all those who are intending to
   contribute to the archive so I can better plan its 
   implementation.

For anyone wondering why some of the new OrMed projects (like the 
Review, Product Literature and Article archives) seem to have 
fairly rigid formats, I guess I should explain what I'm doing.

In reading a long series of files, standardized formats which put 
the same thing in the same place in each file really help move
the process along quickly for both myself in editing them, and
the reader in browsing them. Several net groups are using similar
formats for reviews and address files, and they have proven
themselves very helpful and useful over time.

More importantly, however, each type of file will be run through 
automated processes which extract information for the indicies 
which will be maintained for each project. They also lend 
themselves to automated processing into HTML formats for the 
WWW page. I really do appreciate that the formats are sometimes 
a pain, and I want to commend each of you who put in the time
and effort to follow them.

Thanks!

Norm.


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From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:21:27 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: seizures
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I have a case study where I would appreciate some input.  The subject is a 
25-year old female.  She went off birth control pills 2 years ago, and she 
began having a variety of symptoms.  The most serious symptom is mild 
seizures that occur every two weeks at night during sleep.  She also has 
steadily gained weight, although she is not obese.  Her facial skin breaks 
out in small pimples, and her mind feels foggy.  Energy is low, and 
excessive exercise or sweets tend to bring on a seizure.  No westen 
diagnosis of epilepsy, but they gave her anti-epileptic drugs anyway, which 
didn't work and made her feel worse.  Tongue is pale, purple, wet.  Pulses 
slightly weak.  I gave her Tang Kwei Gin for a month, and she had no 
seizures that month, so she is back on it.  Xiao Yao Wan doesn't seem to 
help, and she has used it from K'an, Brion, and a patent.  I'm planning to 
give her Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin around the time she would normally have a 
seizure.  It has been suggested that her pituitary might have shut down, and 
glandulars might help.  I haven't tried that yet, since I'm just getting her 
started with herbs.  She was getting regular acupuncture and herbs from a 
previous acupuncturist for a few months with no positive effect.  Any ideas?

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:21:51 1995
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Subject: Recs for Michigan
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From: dhayes@netcom.com (Donn Hayes)
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X-Status: 

Looking to refer an elderly client of mine to a practitioner in or around
Ann Arbor, Michigan.  Would prefer someone who is experienced working with
the elderly.  She is 102 and has been helped by acupuncture and herbal
therapy.

Any suggestions

Donn

*****************************************************
Rising Sun
voice/fax: 303-674-4790   E-mail: dhayes@netcom.com
*****************************************************



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From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
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Does anyone knows of a Auriculotherapy Group or Society
here in U.S. or anywhere in the world?
I would appreciate any info on this request.
Thanks a million.
Romel


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:24:18 1995
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Subject: Acupuncture
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Hi there.

My name is Nimai and we have a study group where different health
practitioners get together and we study the different holistic methods and
their process.  Many times the group is stimulated through raising a
question that naturally would stimulate the curiosity or a need to
investigate deeply in the works or minds of the doctors pioneering in that
field of medicine.  We appreciate the value that this questions has in the
growth of our study group.  We are interested in the investigative process;
where we have a chance to review and cultivate the fundamental idea behind
the mechanisim of that specific therapy in review.

So I hope you would like to join in this stimulating conversation by giving
us feedback some of your understanding on the different subjects that come up.

Question:  Is there any neurological involvement when an acupuncture point
is stimulated?

We know that acupuncture stimulation has influence in the regulation of the
specific function of the organ.  For example, if the stomach is in excess or
hyperfunctioning;
we can use points to calm this excess function.  We understand that there is
no possibility of any function
without the neurologic process or connection.  So how is the relation
between the acupuncture qi message sent by the stimulation of a specific
point to that neurologic activity connected directly with that organ function?

Hoping to hear from you soon.

Nimai.


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:25:59 1995
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Subject: Re: Auriculotherapy
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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On Wed, 08 Mar 1995 01:19:17 Mitch Stargrove wrote: 
 
>>>I would appreciate if anyone could lead me to an 
>>Auriculotherapy Society and/or study group anywhere in the 
>>world.  Thanks. 
>> 
>>Nimai Lins 
 
Try Micheal Adams, N.D.   Phone (416) 972-6470  
69 Yorkville Ave.   #201   Toronto, Ontario  M5H 1B8   Canada 
 
His practise features auriculotherapy. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D. 
 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:26:55 1995
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From: KUHN@afc4a.safb.af.mil (Kuhn, Gary L)
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Hello everyone,
  I was wondering wether there was anyone still alive out there.
I've only been on the list a short while but have been interested
in the subject for a couple of years.  I have been going for
acupuncture treatments for about a year.
  I initially got interested in OrMed though my girlfriend, who is
a Wellness Consultant.  I have bought many books, a couple of
which are listed in the OrMed FAQ. 
  There is also a Chiropractor in our area that has taught a class
on Oriental First Aid.  It was quite interesting.  But there is
not enough interest to have a follow-on class. (darn!)
  I have been trying to understand the 5 Phase Theory.  I mean how
it can be applied to everyday situations.  I guess I don't 
understand the theory behind it yet.  Must read more I guess.
Also how it can be related to Spirituality.
  Does anyone know of a WWW site that is set up for acupuncture?

  Must run for now.  Hope to see a lot of activity in this group
real soon.

Gary Kuhn
kuhn@afc4a.safb.af.mil

[Everyone is still here, and things are picking up again. There are
now a few WWW sites for acupuncture and Oriental medicine. Of 
course there is ours, at ftp://ftp.cts.com/pub/nkraft/ormed.html
and there are a couple of new ones that I'll be announcing to the
list in a seperate message. That should go out tonight (3/10).
Welcome to the list!

Norm (OrMed moderator)]

From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:27:24 1995
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>Hello folks!
>
>First, I'd like to welcome students and faculty of the New
>England School of Acupuncture to the OrMed family! Several 
>of you have joined recently, and more have expressed interest.

Welcome!

>On to the point at hand...
>
>We've recently been going through some quiet times here at OrMed.
>It's been nearly a month since the last post was received, yet we
>have over 200 members. Has some catastophe befallen the members
>of OrMed? Is it the dreaded OrMed mummy's curse?
>
>In any case, a number of you have written me asking if you are
>still on the list, or if something has happened to the list. The
>answer is yes: you are writing to me instead of the list.

Hi!

I'm from Australia, am a shiatsu therapist (President of the Shiatsu Therpay 
Association of Australia) and practitioner of Chinese Herbal Medicine. I 
specialise in the treatment of children (using acupressure methods 
primarily). I studied a special form of orthopedics and traumatology, called 
Point percussion therapy under Professor Wang Zhou-pu from Beijing. This 
form especially addresses partial paralysis syndromes such as cerebral 
palsy, stroke, as well as dystrophy, atrophy, multiple sclerosis, motor 
neurone disease and so on. With my colleague Dr Zhang jiansheng PhD, an 
associate professor of pharmacy and pharmacology from Beijing, we provide a 
continuing education program of two and a half years in the pharmacology of 
Chinese herbal medicine.
What I'm really interested in sharing with you is what I consider an 
exciting development here in Australia with the formation recently of the 
Australian Chinese Medicine Education and Research Council, following an 
independent selection process conducted nationally and comprising twelve 
members, eight of whom are chinese, three from Australian training 
backgrounds and one former American, who studied in Taiwan and PRC and now 
living in Melbourne. 
I was the project manager for the establishment of this council and have 
written a report entitled "Chinese Medicine - A Tradition in Transition". It 
describes the process by which the council was formed, with a brief history 
of Chinese Medicine in Australia, the attempts at development of Standards 
and liaison between the twenty-odd representative associations, the current 
moves towrds Competency-based Standards and the future roles of the council. 
It also includes biographies of the selected council members.
If anyone would like a copy I'd be glad to forward it (It runs to almost 
eighty pages!)Copies of the whole document cost Aus$20.00 (to cover costs 
incl. postage); I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you keep in the 
article archive but I'd be happy to upload it (or part thereof) if this is 
appropriate or desirable.
Anyway, this breaks my virginity on this mail-list, I'm glad to be on-board 
and look forward to any and all messages and replies,

Cheers for now from Down Under :-)
Peter Gigante

East West Therapies
TCM SHIATSU THERAPIES P/L
P.O BOX 1
Balaclava Vic.
AUSTRALIA  3183


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:27:42 1995
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Subject: Kudzu Root and Alcoholism (2/2)
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Dealing with the Western scientific issues first: simply speaking, kudzu
extract (the above named isoflavones, which are more commonly isolated from
soy beans) "inhibit human mitochondrial aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH)".
Essentially, this extract blocks the catabolism of alcohol in the liver. What
that means is that these extracts cause alcohol toxicity, which produces an
extended effect of the alcohol, and probably a killer headache (though the
entire root is known to reduce headaches from hypertension)--hard to measure
in hamsters. Like antibuse, kudzu extract functions as a kind of aversion
therapy. Like the ~50% of East-Asians who cannot detoxify alcohol, and so
avoid it, kudzu-dosed alcoholics learn to avoid alcohol, to a degree, because
it now makes them ill. There is no indication that this effect continues
after dosing with the extract--in fact, the hamsters go right back to their
shenanigans as soon as it is removed. The authors try to suggest that this
substance mimics the "benign" defective gene 'adaptation' in these
non-drinkers, which is absurd--these non-ALDH-ready individuals can die from
alcohol intake. They also argue that this study "shed(s) light on the
mechanistic basis underlying alcohol abuse in humans" but how is entirely
beyond me. What it sheds light on is the fact that you can interupt the
body's detoxification of alcohol, and thereby produce a state of ill health
that functions as aversion therapy.

A few side notes. These hamsters consume 10X the alcohol level of human heavy
drinkers. A 50% reduction in that level may not be pertinent. And a variety
of other enzyme systems and physiological processes are interfered with
(possibly tyrosine-specific protein kinase, protein histadine kinase, DNA
topoisomerase II, and perhaps: endothelial cell proliferation, in vitro
angiogenesis). These may not be a good things.

On the historical herbal side, the authors make some shady statements. They
claim that usage of this herbal for this purpose goes back to Beiji Qianjin
Yaofang (~600 CE) and quote its use of the term "anti-drunkenness" effect. As
I have noted, this text is a compilation, and attempted to report a vast
amount of folk beliefs and usages for posterity. In addition, the flowers
were used mainly, and for hangover--but this very report would suggest that
this substance creates a super-drunkenness, not anti-drunkenness as claimed
(the authors actually suggest that kudzu extract can "increas(e) the
bioavailability of ingested ethanol," as if that is a positive
feature--though it may be handy in creating products that get you buzzed
below legal limits on alcohol content). I have no information handy on
different chemistry in the flowers, but this is a frequent occurrence in
plants. The authors then describe it as being recommended for anti-alcoholism
in Lantai Kuei Fan (~1600 CE), but this cite is actually to a _formula_, not
the single herbal, which they gloss over. Finally, the authors claim it is in
traditional use, but then note that they visited 13 'TCM' doctors who were
doing research in this area (they suggest this is a random sample, but it is
clearly not), and that these doctors "generally agree" that these extracts
work. These TCM doctors have treated ~300 patients, and ~80% of these felt no
more craving for alcohol after 2-4 weeks.

Finally, I would like to say that this is encouraging research. Kudzu extract
is less damaging than the pharmaceuticals used generally to reduce craving in
severely-addicted alcoholics. The evidence and the mode of action is fairly
clearcut. But this is far from a cure, and actually is aversion therapy, not
some kind of therapy that eliminates craving directly. 100g of kudzu root
concentrate (not extract) retails for around $8.00, so the sale of these
materials entrepreneurially is not valid. It is a very cheap herbal, and you
can easily harvest your own if you live in the southern U.S.

I'm sure the Seagrams people are glad for you all to know that if you happen
to become addicted to the health-imbalancing effects of alcoholic drinks,
help is on the way. Holistic healing this is NOT. This is corporate medicine
at its most venal.

If I have made errors in the biochemistry, I would welcome their redress.

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:27:51 1995
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Hello.

I do studies on the neurophysiological aspect of the stimulation of the
acupuncture point function. 

I have a question just for the intellectual stimulation of Acupuncture in
Medicine: Is the mechanical function of the Auriculo-therapy the same as
when a Meridian point is stimulated?  If it is, what is their similiarity?
 
I hope to hear from you.  Thanks.

Romel 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@ns.cts.com  Fri Mar 10 11:29:48 1995
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A while back someone posted in misc.health.alt an entrepreneurial ad claiming
that kudzu extract is a cure for alcoholism, and that it had long been used
as such by East-Asian Traditional Healing. I reponded that this was an
unconscionable exaggeration, and that this supposed effect is not a part of
East-Asian Traditional Healing, but rather a part of the folk tradition. The
use of kudzu flowers for hangover is a well-known folk tradition.

The original poster responded with a variety of insults, but also with his
references for this claim: unpublished reports from a few researchers in
Boston, and a Newsweek article. It took me a while to look up the Newsweek
article, but I now have, and I have also looked up the article, in _The
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States_, that
is the basis for that Newsweek article.

There are several issues here, among them whether this published report is
accurate, whether such usage is indeed traditional to ETH, whether the
characterization of the mechanism of action is accurate, and whether
entrepreneurial claims are justified. Bear with me, I will try to address all
of these points. First, however, I will attack the source:

The Newsweek article (Nov. 8, 1993, p. 68) is flippantly written, more of an
op-ed piece than a science report. Written by a Debra Rosenberg in _Boston_
(uncredited as to staff status), it takes a derisive approach to the subject,
suggesting that the FDA has ignored the value of the product (though they
have probably never heard of it) with lines like: "So why isn't this miracle
herb being used in the United States? The [FDA] requires a more convincing
proof than a billion Chinese. And they may soon have it. A team of Harvard
researchers reports that the kudzu extract apparently works on another group
of alcoholics--hamsters. The furry rodents are among nature's most natural
drunks: given the choice between alcohol and water, they'll opt for the booze
every time." [in fact only a specific breed of hamster does this, and in the
test they were offered a 15% ethanol solution, so this does not suggest that
hamsters will drink vodka. In addition, the authors note in passing that
these hamsters "do not meet the criteria published for an animal model of
alcoholism," essentially because there is no evidence that the hamsters
become habituated to alcohol, which would seem to be fairly important when
making a claim of cure.] 

More to the point, the question arises how the writer was made aware of this
obscure report? Interestingly enough, the article, by two Harvard med school
individuals (they do not have degrees or licences listed with their names),
is listed as an 'advertisement' in the Proceedings--its publication in the
Proceedings was in part paid for! Flipping to the back of the article, it is
noted that the work was supported by "funds provided by Joseph E. Seagram and
Sons, Inc.", a name recognizable to all alcoholics I'm sure. Why would a
well-known distiller fund research into a pill that reduces alcoholism?
(rhetorical)

So forget the Newsweek article. It contains no facts, and is worthless as a
reference. On to the actual report. Entitled "Daidzin and daidzein suppress
free-choice ethanol intake by Syrian Golden hamsters," by Wing-Ming Keung and
Bert L. Vallee (Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, vol 90, pp 10008-10012, November
1993), the article notes an experiment in which hamsters halved their ethanol
consumption when they were injected with Kudzu extracts of various sorts.
Note first of all that this doesn't much represent a 'cure,' since halving
intake is not stopping intake. Such curbing of apparent 'desire' for alcohol
is compared to the effects of pharmaceuticals known for this effect, like
lithium carbonate.


*** Continued in next message... ***


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I would appreciate if anyone could lead me to an Auriculotherapy Society and
/or study group anywhere in the world.
thanks.
Romel


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:39:57 1995
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Subject: RE:Acupuncture Question.
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From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
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Hi there.

We received a posting saying that some experiments show that local nerve
blocks can stop the effect of the acupuncture stimulation.  We agree with
this experiment and this shows us that the neurological aspect has an
influence and relationship to the way acupuncture works.  Many traditional
Acupuncturists would hate the idea that there is more to the Acupuncture
Medicine mechanism than the energy travelling in the channels and the
balancing of these energies.  We agree with this Mechanism and the
Scientific proof on the treatment and diagnosis using this energy system for
thousand of years.

But in our study group, we are trying to see the relationship and
involvement in the acupuncture stimulation moving the Qi(energy) and the
outcome biochemically, the neurological response to this stimulations.  We
agree that there is a biochemical release of endorphins and other
biochemical substances to local and distal areas.  But we feel that these
amounts of endorphins could not stop a headache in sometimes 5 to 10 minutes
like we saw many times.  We understand the biochemistry mechanism in the
different disorders, but we don't think that a stimulation of a specific
point in the feet could create enough endorphins to stop a major headache in
a very short time.  What we are trying to bring up, is that there are other
things working together to relieve these headaches.

Thanks for the response, we appreciate them.  We understand the point that
Acupuncture works; we are just trying to enjoy the mechanism to the fullest
potential.

Nimai
(responding for our group)


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:42:14 1995
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Subject: Re: seizures
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From: zrosenberg@powergrid.electriciti.com (Z'ev Rosenberg)
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>I have a case study where I would appreciate some input.  The subject is a 
>25-year old female.  She went off birth control pills 2 years ago, and she 
>began having a variety of symptoms.  The most serious symptom is mild 
>seizures that occur every two weeks at night during sleep.  She also has 
>steadily gained weight, although she is not obese.  Her facial skin breaks 
>out in small pimples, and her mind feels foggy.  Energy is low, and 
>excessive exercise or sweets tend to bring on a seizure.  No westen 
>diagnosis of epilepsy, but they gave her anti-epileptic drugs anyway, which 
>didn't work and made her feel worse.  Tongue is pale, purple, wet.  Pulses 
>slightly weak.  I gave her Tang Kwei Gin for a month, and she had no 
>seizures that month, so she is back on it.  Xiao Yao Wan doesn't seem to 
>help, and she has used it from K'an, Brion, and a patent.  I'm planning to 
>give her Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin around the time she would normally have a 
>seizure.  It has been suggested that her pituitary might have shut down, and 
>glandulars might help.  I haven't tried that yet, since I'm just getting her 
>started with herbs.  She was getting regular acupuncture and herbs from a 
>previous acupuncturist for a few months with no positive effect.  Any ideas?
>
>Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

Dear Bill,
  I have seen many patients with complications as a result of using birth
control pills.  The degree of iatragenic reaction seems to depend on
constitutional sensitivity.  Birth control pills in general are cool to
cold, very damp and congesting, causing weakening of the spleen yang and
exascerbating dampness.  This woman seems like she was previously spleen
yang xu with damp already.  The seizures come at nighttime, when yin is
prevalent and damp accumulates even more.  Her tongue being pale and damp
also indicates this pattern, along with the weight gain.
  Treatment should be as follows: 
1) A diet of grains, vegies, fish, mostly cooked is essential.  No sweets,
milk products, cold/raw or damp causing foods. 
2) Lots of moxabustion to revive the yang and dispel dampness (Bl 23, 20,
SJ 4, St 36) . Try needling Bl 39(52), ren 9, liv 13, LI 11.  Work on san
jiao function.
3) Herbs: xiao yao wan is not correct, in that chai hu/bupleurum may
exascerbate the rising yang.  The pattern here is that the true clear yang
is not rising, and is embedded in the excess yin in the lower jiao.  You
must warm the spleen and kidney yang, and dispel the dampness.  Look at
formulas such as fu zi li zhong wan to restore the body heat and revive the
spleen to start.
  This is not your typical seizure pattern.  You must work from below, so
to speak. 

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac. 



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:46:13 1995
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From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
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I hope we all understand the purpose of these questions that my friends in
this study group are raising.  We have in the group some people who like to
stir things up, and this brings up many subjects and details in the
Acupuncture field.  We learned to raise these arguments and to talk about it
without being disrespectful to our own field of medicine.  We have come a
long way for this understanding.  In fact, everything started when we went
to one seminar done by a doctor in acupuncture where many times he
mentioned, "Acupuncture is not Scientific; that the way things work is
inexplicable.  The western world just has to accept it".

We were astonished at all of those statements; and that night was the
beginning of our challenge: the challenge of reviewing and researching with
our understanding and clinical practice for clarification in response to
those ignorant statements.  We thought, no wonder many healthcare providers
think acupuncture is nothing but MYSTICISM.  We are not trying to get
accepted by ALL, but we are interested in bringing up what is alredy there
and the rest will follow.
Thank you for giving us this oportunity.

Romel 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:46:13 1995
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I hope we all understand the purpose of these questions that my friends in
this study group are raising.  We have in the group some people who like to
stir things up, and this brings up many subjects and details in the
Acupuncture field.  We learned to raise these arguments and to talk about it
without being disrespectful to our own field of medicine.  We have come a
long way for this understanding.  In fact, everything started when we went
to one seminar done by a doctor in acupuncture where many times he
mentioned, "Acupuncture is not Scientific; that the way things work is
inexplicable.  The western world just has to accept it".

We were astonished at all of those statements; and that night was the
beginning of our challenge: the challenge of reviewing and researching with
our understanding and clinical practice for clarification in response to
those ignorant statements.  We thought, no wonder many healthcare providers
think acupuncture is nothing but MYSTICISM.  We are not trying to get
accepted by ALL, but we are interested in bringing up what is alredy there
and the rest will follow.
Thank you for giving us this oportunity.

Romel 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:48:26 1995
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Subject: Re: acupuncture
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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On Thu, 09 Mar 1995 17:04:13 Romel Cordeiro wrote:  
  
  
>Question:  Is there any neurological involvement when an acupuncture point

 
>is stimulated?  
>  
>We know that acupuncture stimulation has influence in the regulation of 
the  
>specific function of the organ.  For example, if the stomach is in excess 
or  
>hyperfunctioning;  
>we can use points to calm this excess function.  We understand that there 
is  
>no possibility of any function  
>without the neurologic process or connection.  So how is the relation  
>between the acupuncture qi message sent by the stimulation of a specific  
>point to that neurologic activity connected directly with that organ 
function?  
>  
>Hoping to hear from you soon.  
>  
>Nimai.  
>  
  
I like the dermatome model as far as a neurological explanation goes.  
Every vertrebral segment has internal (organ, smooth muscle) connections as

well as external (skeletal muscle, skin) connections.  For example, legs 
are covered by lumbar and sacral segments.  Legs have points to address 
digestive, eliminative, reproductive, urinary, adrenal (qi, yang) 
functions.  Lumbar and sacral segments innervate these very same organs.  
Following below is a copyrighted article with more info.  I hope this 
stimulates discussion.  
  
Pankaj Seth, N.D.  
  
                             QI & MERIDIANS (A systems approach)  
  
  
What is a meridian?  
  
It is a pathway of least resistance for a type of impulse or movement.  It 
does not have any discernible physical structure like other pathways; e.g. 
blood vessels, nerves.  Also, it does not conduct any discernible material 
substance (matter).  Thus, meridians are best thought of in terms of what 
is not matter; namely, energy.  
  
Matter and energy are not opposites but exist along a continuum.  Matter 
refers to that aspect of one s experience which is directly discernible via

the 5 senses.  If we have a reason to suspect the existence of something 
which we cannot discern via the 5 senses then we create a category called  
energy  in order to make sense of our experience which suggests that there 
is something more than what is discernible via the 5 senses.  
  
Energy performs work; i.e. is the causative agent of a discerned change.  
That something is different than it was means that some  work  was done; 
also, some energy must have been utilized in order to perform the  work  
(change).  When we move a muscle, we cause a change.  The energy for this 
change comes from the ATP molecule which powers the molecules in the muscle

proteins.  The ATP turns into ADP and in the process some energy is 
released which is utilized to move the muscle.  This is an everyday example

of matter turning into energy; we can also see this as the storage of 
energy as matter which is then liberated in order to perform work.  The 
movement of the muscle is discernible via the 5 senses; the energy-matter 
interchange at the molecular level is not.  By using technology to enhance 
our senses we can detect matter (ATP) where before we would have to create 
the category  energy  in order to conceptualize the movement of muscles.  
  
We have seen with technology that matter and energy are very closely 
related; in fact, what we can discern via the senses (with or without 
technology) can be categorized as  matter  and what is not discernible via 
the senses (with of without technology) is categorized as  energy .  The 
energy source behind muscles is ATP; proceeding logically, there is 
something behind ATP as well which we can call energy.  The energy source 
behind ATP is the province of physics (atoms and sub-atomic  particles ); 
we can always say that behind whatever we understand our world to be made 
of there is a an energic "structure" that we cannot discern.  
  
This energy source can only be given a name because nothing about can be 
known; that is, if something is known then it falls into the category of  
matter  and we must again inquire about the energy source which powers this

very subtle matter.  Whatever it is that powers the discernible world has 
been given various names by different cultures.  The western scientific 
world calls it the  virtual state , the Indians call it  Prana  and the 
Chinese call it  Qi ; some call it  God .  
  
In western terms, the virtual state is ultimately behind everything, but 
this understanding belongs only to physicists and does not permeate popular

culture.  In the West, there is a big difference  between the deepest 
understanding of the universe and how the world is usually perceived (by 
popular western culture).  The western medical system is based on the 
popular understanding of the universe and not the deep understanding which 
exists only in the world of physics and philosophy.  The Chinese medical 
system is based on a deep understanding of the universe.  In Chinese 
terminology, whatever stands behind the world of form is Qi.  
  
Qi is said to be everywhere because it cannot be understood as matter 
(which exists in time and space).  Matter has definite duration; it exists 
in time.  Matter has definite dimensions; it exists in space.  Whatever 
cannot be defined in terms of time and space is Qi; Thus, Qi is beyond the 
concepts of space and time.  
  
Qi is everywhere at all times so we are also Qi; that is, we can be seen as

matter as well as energy.  Though energy exists everywhere it favours 
certain locations where is tends to collect; this is simply what our 
experience tells us.  An area where it tends to collect is quite simply an 
especially powerful area.  Energy performs work and if we can access energy

then we can cause work to be performed.  The on-off switch of a machine is 
an area whereby we can access the energy of that machine.  For the body, 
there are especially powerful areas where we can access the energy of the 
body to perform work (healing work); this is simply what our experience 
tells us.  By blowing our nose we perform work; we cause the discharge of 
mucous.  Similarly, there are other areas of the body through which we can 
cause other types of work to be performed; these areas are known as 
acu-points.  The acu-points are distributed all over the body and their 
functions are known through experience.  
  
Just as different aspects of the matter of the body (organs etc.) have 
specific locations and functions the acu-points also.  Just as various 
parts of the body that have the same or related functions can be seen as a 
system, the acupoints also; these systems are known as meridians; they are 
a group of acu-points which when variously connected form a definite 
pattern or pathway.  That fact that the points on a given meridian have a 
very similar function means that they are related or connected.  The 
connectedness of these acu-points can be seen as evidence of a 
communicating network or a meridian.  The whole body is interconnected but 
certain connections are stronger than others.  The acu-points on a meridian

show a very strong interconnection.  Accessing acu-points also causes work 
to be performed on the different organs and other structures of the body; 
often, sensitive individuals can detect sensations in various parts of the 
body when a particular meridian or a particular acu-point is accessed.  
This experience has led to the matured meridian model which shows specific 
relationships between different acu-points/meridians and body parts/ 
functions.  
  
Accessing an acu-point causes change in the body which cannot be explained 
by any single physical communicating structure (nerves, blood vessels) 
causing this change; that is, the blood vessels and nerves in the vicinity 
of the acu-point do not always have direct access to those body 
areas/functions which are caused to change via the  acu-point.  The 
areas/functions which are affected are innervated and have blood supply but

these may not have any direct connections to the blood vessels and nerves 
in the vicinity of the acu-point.  Clearly, something more complex is 
occurring than can be explained by the direct nervous and blood vessels 
connected.  The western model of the body sees the nerves and blood vessels

as the only communicating networks and if a communication is observed to 
occur which cannot be explained by the network of blood vessels and nerves 
then western medicine  is confounded.  
  
Clearly, the body is more completely interconnected than what is explained 
by the pathways of blood vessels and nerves.  The phenomenon of the 
meridians not only accounts for the what is accounted by blood vessels and 
nerves but much more; it is of a higher order of complexity.  The meridian 
model accepts all possible interconnections between different body 
parts/functions and it does not rely upon any physically discernible 
pathway.  For the meridian model, experience guides the building of the 
model (experience first, model second).  In the western anatomical model, 
the blood vessels and nerves allow only a portion of the interconnections 
that our experience shows; western medicine is limited because it s world 
view is not broad enough to see the body as any more complex & ordered than

a network of blood vessels and nerves, and life as any more than a random 
chance event in the universe.  In fact, if it is not measurable in some 
mechanical way than it cannot be proven; and until something is proven it 
does not exist.  For example, the link between cigarette smoking and lung 
cancer, between diet and health was not accepted by the western world view 
until the studies came in.  How can a study ever be designed which will 
measure what is called  spirituality  and its connection to health; the 
current western model is destined to underestimate the complexity, beauty 
and power of the universe.  
  
If the body were just the blood vessels and nothing more then blood vessels

would explain the observed intercommunication (an example is a river with 
its tributaries; water flow can be explained by the following the course of

the river basin).  The above can also be said of the nervous system.  
However, the body is a whole made up of many parts including blood vessels,

nerves, muscles, bone, skin, organs and much more and no one part by itself

can explain the complex interconnections which exist.  The body is of a 
very high level of complexity and order and the interconnections which 
exist are not predictable from the known structure of any single part when 
taken by itself or analysed in individualistic terms.  The whole is greater

than the sum of its parts.  
  
A tissue or system singly cannot account for the sensations/discerned 
movements related to the meridians.  The sensations/discerned movements are

the sum total of the functions/ activities of the different tissues/systems

of the body.  
  
More than one tissue or system acting together gives rise to a phenomenon 
which is not predictable from the known structure/function of any single 
tissue/system when taken by itself or analysed in individualistic terms.  
for example, hydrogen has specific, known properties; oxygen has specific, 
known properties.  H2O or water arises when neither H & O exist as 
individual entities. The wetness or specific gravity of water is not 
predictable from knowledge of the individuals H & O.  The whole is greater 
than the sum of its parts.  
  
The meridian system represents a system of higher order complexity then any

of its constituent individual parts.  
Observation gives opportunity to formulate organizational structures which 
are directly related to the perspective chosen.  A distinctly psychic 
perspective gives rise to the psychological model with its constituent 
parts; ego, self, superego etc.  A distinctly physical perspective gives 
rise to the physical-anatomical model of the body; this model clearly does 
not account for all that is observed about the body.  A functional-energic 
perspective gives rise to the meridian model, also the chakra model (but 
that is another story).  
  
copyright 1992 Pankaj Seth, N.D.   (Renaissance Naturopathic Centre)  
(Toronto) 
 


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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
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Subject: Re: acupuncture
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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X-Status: D

 
 
 
On Thu, 09 Mar 1995 17:04:13 Romel Cordeiro wrote:  
  
  
>Question:  Is there any neurological involvement when an acupuncture point

 
>is stimulated?  
>  
>We know that acupuncture stimulation has influence in the regulation of 
the  
>specific function of the organ.  For example, if the stomach is in excess 
or  
>hyperfunctioning;  
>we can use points to calm this excess function.  We understand that there 
is  
>no possibility of any function  
>without the neurologic process or connection.  So how is the relation  
>between the acupuncture qi message sent by the stimulation of a specific  
>point to that neurologic activity connected directly with that organ 
function?  
>  
>Hoping to hear from you soon.  
>  
>Nimai.  
>  
  
I like the dermatome model as far as a neurological explanation goes.  
Every vertrebral segment has internal (organ, smooth muscle) connections as

well as external (skeletal muscle, skin) connections.  For example, legs 
are covered by lumbar and sacral segments.  Legs have points to address 
digestive, eliminative, reproductive, urinary, adrenal (qi, yang) 
functions.  Lumbar and sacral segments innervate these very same organs.  
Following below is a copyrighted article with more info.  I hope this 
stimulates discussion.  
  
Pankaj Seth, N.D.  
  
                             QI & MERIDIANS (A systems approach)  
  
  
What is a meridian?  
  
It is a pathway of least resistance for a type of impulse or movement.  It 
does not have any discernible physical structure like other pathways; e.g. 
blood vessels, nerves.  Also, it does not conduct any discernible material 
substance (matter).  Thus, meridians are best thought of in terms of what 
is not matter; namely, energy.  
  
Matter and energy are not opposites but exist along a continuum.  Matter 
refers to that aspect of one s experience which is directly discernible via

the 5 senses.  If we have a reason to suspect the existence of something 
which we cannot discern via the 5 senses then we create a category called  
energy  in order to make sense of our experience which suggests that there 
is something more than what is discernible via the 5 senses.  
  
Energy performs work; i.e. is the causative agent of a discerned change.  
That something is different than it was means that some  work  was done; 
also, some energy must have been utilized in order to perform the  work  
(change).  When we move a muscle, we cause a change.  The energy for this 
change comes from the ATP molecule which powers the molecules in the muscle

proteins.  The ATP turns into ADP and in the process some energy is 
released which is utilized to move the muscle.  This is an everyday example

of matter turning into energy; we can also see this as the storage of 
energy as matter which is then liberated in order to perform work.  The 
movement of the muscle is discernible via the 5 senses; the energy-matter 
interchange at the molecular level is not.  By using technology to enhance 
our senses we can detect matter (ATP) where before we would have to create 
the category  energy  in order to conceptualize the movement of muscles.  
  
We have seen with technology that matter and energy are very closely 
related; in fact, what we can discern via the senses (with or without 
technology) can be categorized as  matter  and what is not discernible via 
the senses (with of without technology) is categorized as  energy .  The 
energy source behind muscles is ATP; proceeding logically, there is 
something behind ATP as well which we can call energy.  The energy source 
behind ATP is the province of physics (atoms and sub-atomic  particles ); 
we can always say that behind whatever we understand our world to be made 
of there is a an energic "structure" that we cannot discern.  
  
This energy source can only be given a name because nothing about can be 
known; that is, if something is known then it falls into the category of  
matter  and we must again inquire about the energy source which powers this

very subtle matter.  Whatever it is that powers the discernible world has 
been given various names by different cultures.  The western scientific 
world calls it the  virtual state , the Indians call it  Prana  and the 
Chinese call it  Qi ; some call it  God .  
  
In western terms, the virtual state is ultimately behind everything, but 
this understanding belongs only to physicists and does not permeate popular

culture.  In the West, there is a big difference  between the deepest 
understanding of the universe and how the world is usually perceived (by 
popular western culture).  The western medical system is based on the 
popular understanding of the universe and not the deep understanding which 
exists only in the world of physics and philosophy.  The Chinese medical 
system is based on a deep understanding of the universe.  In Chinese 
terminology, whatever stands behind the world of form is Qi.  
  
Qi is said to be everywhere because it cannot be understood as matter 
(which exists in time and space).  Matter has definite duration; it exists 
in time.  Matter has definite dimensions; it exists in space.  Whatever 
cannot be defined in terms of time and space is Qi; Thus, Qi is beyond the 
concepts of space and time.  
  
Qi is everywhere at all times so we are also Qi; that is, we can be seen as

matter as well as energy.  Though energy exists everywhere it favours 
certain locations where is tends to collect; this is simply what our 
experience tells us.  An area where it tends to collect is quite simply an 
especially powerful area.  Energy performs work and if we can access energy

then we can cause work to be performed.  The on-off switch of a machine is 
an area whereby we can access the energy of that machine.  For the body, 
there are especially powerful areas where we can access the energy of the 
body to perform work (healing work); this is simply what our experience 
tells us.  By blowing our nose we perform work; we cause the discharge of 
mucous.  Similarly, there are other areas of the body through which we can 
cause other types of work to be performed; these areas are known as 
acu-points.  The acu-points are distributed all over the body and their 
functions are known through experience.  
  
Just as different aspects of the matter of the body (organs etc.) have 
specific locations and functions the acu-points also.  Just as various 
parts of the body that have the same or related functions can be seen as a 
system, the acupoints also; these systems are known as meridians; they are 
a group of acu-points which when variously connected form a definite 
pattern or pathway.  That fact that the points on a given meridian have a 
very similar function means that they are related or connected.  The 
connectedness of these acu-points can be seen as evidence of a 
communicating network or a meridian.  The whole body is interconnected but 
certain connections are stronger than others.  The acu-points on a meridian

show a very strong interconnection.  Accessing acu-points also causes work 
to be performed on the different organs and other structures of the body; 
often, sensitive individuals can detect sensations in various parts of the 
body when a particular meridian or a particular acu-point is accessed.  
This experience has led to the matured meridian model which shows specific 
relationships between different acu-points/meridians and body parts/ 
functions.  
  
Accessing an acu-point causes change in the body which cannot be explained 
by any single physical communicating structure (nerves, blood vessels) 
causing this change; that is, the blood vessels and nerves in the vicinity 
of the acu-point do not always have direct access to those body 
areas/functions which are caused to change via the  acu-point.  The 
areas/functions which are affected are innervated and have blood supply but

these may not have any direct connections to the blood vessels and nerves 
in the vicinity of the acu-point.  Clearly, something more complex is 
occurring than can be explained by the direct nervous and blood vessels 
connected.  The western model of the body sees the nerves and blood vessels

as the only communicating networks and if a communication is observed to 
occur which cannot be explained by the network of blood vessels and nerves 
then western medicine  is confounded.  
  
Clearly, the body is more completely interconnected than what is explained 
by the pathways of blood vessels and nerves.  The phenomenon of the 
meridians not only accounts for the what is accounted by blood vessels and 
nerves but much more; it is of a higher order of complexity.  The meridian 
model accepts all possible interconnections between different body 
parts/functions and it does not rely upon any physically discernible 
pathway.  For the meridian model, experience guides the building of the 
model (experience first, model second).  In the western anatomical model, 
the blood vessels and nerves allow only a portion of the interconnections 
that our experience shows; western medicine is limited because it s world 
view is not broad enough to see the body as any more complex & ordered than

a network of blood vessels and nerves, and life as any more than a random 
chance event in the universe.  In fact, if it is not measurable in some 
mechanical way than it cannot be proven; and until something is proven it 
does not exist.  For example, the link between cigarette smoking and lung 
cancer, between diet and health was not accepted by the western world view 
until the studies came in.  How can a study ever be designed which will 
measure what is called  spirituality  and its connection to health; the 
current western model is destined to underestimate the complexity, beauty 
and power of the universe.  
  
If the body were just the blood vessels and nothing more then blood vessels

would explain the observed intercommunication (an example is a river with 
its tributaries; water flow can be explained by the following the course of

the river basin).  The above can also be said of the nervous system.  
However, the body is a whole made up of many parts including blood vessels,

nerves, muscles, bone, skin, organs and much more and no one part by itself

can explain the complex interconnections which exist.  The body is of a 
very high level of complexity and order and the interconnections which 
exist are not predictable from the known structure of any single part when 
taken by itself or analysed in individualistic terms.  The whole is greater

than the sum of its parts.  
  
A tissue or system singly cannot account for the sensations/discerned 
movements related to the meridians.  The sensations/discerned movements are

the sum total of the functions/ activities of the different tissues/systems

of the body.  
  
More than one tissue or system acting together gives rise to a phenomenon 
which is not predictable from the known structure/function of any single 
tissue/system when taken by itself or analysed in individualistic terms.  
for example, hydrogen has specific, known properties; oxygen has specific, 
known properties.  H2O or water arises when neither H & O exist as 
individual entities. The wetness or specific gravity of water is not 
predictable from knowledge of the individuals H & O.  The whole is greater 
than the sum of its parts.  
  
The meridian system represents a system of higher order complexity then any

of its constituent individual parts.  
Observation gives opportunity to formulate organizational structures which 
are directly related to the perspective chosen.  A distinctly psychic 
perspective gives rise to the psychological model with its constituent 
parts; ego, self, superego etc.  A distinctly physical perspective gives 
rise to the physical-anatomical model of the body; this model clearly does 
not account for all that is observed about the body.  A functional-energic 
perspective gives rise to the meridian model, also the chakra model (but 
that is another story).  
  
copyright 1992 Pankaj Seth, N.D.   (Renaissance Naturopathic Centre)  
(Toronto) 
 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:50:44 1995
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Subject: Re: Auriculotherapy
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>Hello.
>
>I do studies on the neurophysiological aspect of the stimulation of the
>acupuncture point function. 
>
>I have a question just for the intellectual stimulation of Acupuncture in
>Medicine: Is the mechanical function of the Auriculo-therapy the same as
>when a Meridian point is stimulated?  If it is, what is their similiarity?
> 
>I hope to hear from you.  Thanks.
>
>Romel

  In my opinion, a great deal of confusion clouds the comparision of
classical meridian-based Chinese acupuncture and auriculotherapy, not at
all helped by the eclectic adaption of the ear acupuncture model practiced
in China today.  This model is a mixture of classical Chinese and modern
Western anatomical ideas, without a coherent meridian or pattern-based
model to tie it all together.  It borrows some points and ideas from
Nogier's auriculotherapy, but then adds other ideas from both biomedical
ideas and Chinese medicine to create a hodgepodge.
   Auriculotherapy is a modern development, and none of the ear points are
classical ones.  Because none of the points used are on the classical
meridians, it works according to a different system of correspondence, that
based on embryology. Therefore, based on modern anatomy (like scalp
acupuncture as well), there is more of an emphasis on neurological
stimulation than arrival of qi, in my opinion.  I realize that Nogier and
associates have greatly developed this model with light filters, etc., and
that it is very effective clinically (more than the chinese model),
however, we must not confuse it with the goals,principles and treatment
methods of Chinese medicine.

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M. 



From news@bigblue.oit.unc.edu  Sun Mar 12 16:51:15 1995
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Date: 10 Mar 1995 09:33:48 GMT
From: cbf@dana.ucc.nau.edu (Chris B. Fairchild)
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Subject: hemp
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It is my understanding that hemp grown for its biomass potential will not 
have any significant THC content.  By the way, THC is present *only* in 
the flowering tops, leaves and some residual THC can be found on the 
smallest stems which are embedded in the buds.  Since the plants are 
grown for the the highest possible yield of stalk, the buds which contain 
*very low* percentages of THC will be few and far between.  Can anyone 
back up the assertion that hemp may contain as much as 4-20 times the 
amount of corn stalks or sugar cane?  are there any other high biomass 
options other than poplar?

From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Mar 12 16:53:11 1995
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Subject: Acupuncture Clinic Space/Research/UK
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From: Monica@dipactcm.demon.co.uk
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WANTED: ACUPUNCTURE CLINIC SPACE/RESEARCH/UK
  
Dear G.P., Osteopath, or other Health Practitioner,
   
I am looking for an opportunity to rent premises in an established
practice for use as an acupuncture clinic beginning in May 1995.
This will provide the clinic manager with rental revenue and a 
public relations benefit once I am established. I am also interested 
in working with any hospital or clinic that is interested in doing 
research into the efficacy of TCM acupuncture and will consider 
working in any clinic for such a purpose, full or part-time.
 
Although I am open minded about most aspects, the space available
should comprise one or two rooms, preferably each with a sink, 
plus a waiting reception room. Anywhere in the North East of England 
will be considered, proximity to Newcastle or Durham preferred.

Perhaps you yourself cannot consider this application but may know
of someone who might be in a position to cooperate? I look forward
to some positive response and will send more information upon request.
 
Yours faithfully
 
Monica Anderson, C.E.T. (Dip Ac May 1995, Registration RTCM May 1995)

Monica@dipactcm.demon.co.uk
0191-233-2005 (phone/fax)


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:42:51 1995
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Subject: Re: Materialistic validation, was Re: acupuncture
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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On Sun, 12 Mar 1995 12:16:10 P_Iannone@lamg.com wrote: 
 
>On 3/10/95 at 8:59 AM, Pankaj Seth, N.D. wrote: 
> 
>: "This energy source can only be given a name because nothing about 
>: can be known; that is, if something is known then it falls into the 
>: category of  matter and we must again inquire about the energy 
>: source which powers this 
>:  
>: very subtle matter. Whatever it is that powers the discernible 
>: world has been given various names by different cultures. The 
>: western scientific world calls it the virtual state , the Indians 
>: call it Prana and the Chinese call it Qi ; some call it God."   
> 
>Paul Iannone, P.O.B. wrote in response: 
This is a very long article, and I don't even know where to begin. But I 
>think I will state again January's point: Qi is NOT Energy, existing in
the 
>terms of the Matter/Energy dicotomy that forms the substratum of Western 
>scientific consciousness. Qi is not the force that 'powers' the
discernable 
>world--the very metaphor in these words is mechanistic. 
> 
>To everyone who is trying to solve this question by cramming East-Asian 
>Traditional Healing into the box of Western scientific consciousness: Good

>luck, I wish you well, I hope you don't 'succeed.' What is needed is _very

>much_ an appreciation of the inherently MYSTICAL nature of human
existence. I 
>would prefer that you would all start with defining and explicating 'Shen'

>(which will produce a more ready failure) than focussing on the
misleadingly 
>'convenient' Qi. 
 
 
I understand your criticisms; I wrote the article in order for 1st year
shiatsu students to gain a deeper understanding of Qi.  The metaphors and
comparisons used at times ARE too materialistic.  That is sometimes the
price of using the written word ( or words at all).  Prior to discussing
the contents of the article, the students had only a vague and very
incomplete understanding of Qi and that from a quasi-mystical point of
view.  Most of the teaching in this area is badly deficient ( Qi
deficiency?!) What words, concepts and metaphors would you use to explain
what is known as  Qi? 
 
Can you also shed some light on this "inherently MYSTICAL nature of human
existence".  "Mystical" is not a universally understood term.  What is your
experience? 
 
Paul Iannone writes further:   
"What stands behind the world of form is Dao, and Dao has no Qi." 
 
 
The above is a categorical statement which cannot be validated.  Is its
source some Taoist text or your own experience?  If it is your own
experience then perhaps you can explain your point of view.  My
understanding of Dao or Tao is that it is the way of things, how things
are, whether seen or unseen. Tao does not stand behind the world of form
(Xing or Jing). 
 
I am pleased that you understood the essence of my article to be the use of
systems theory to better understand the body/mind/spirit/etc./etc..  The
points you have raised are good ones which should be explored rather than
leaving it as Mysticism. 
 
I look forward to your response. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D. 
 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:43:41 1995
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Subject: Re:  Acupuncture Discussion
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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On Tue, 14 Mar 1995 00:53:08 Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU wrote in
response to below: 
 
 "Acupuncture is not Scientific; that the way things work is 
>>inexplicable.  The western world just has to accept it". 
>> 
>>We were astonished at all of those statements; and that night was the 
>>beginning of our challenge: the challenge of reviewing and researching
with 
>>our understanding and clinical practice for clarification in response to 
>>those ignorant statements.  We thought, no wonder many healthcare
providers 
>>think acupuncture is nothing but MYSTICISM.  We are not trying to get 
>>accepted by ALL, but we are interested in bringing up what is alredy
there 
 
 
In response to above, Chris wrote: 
>I think the doctor was actually right, and you misunderstood him.
Acupuncture 
>isn't scientific in that it is not built upon western scientific
traditions. 
>It is based on a quite a different model of physiology, and that it what 
>you need to accept. That is undoubtedly why you are having these questions

>about the biochemical effects related to headaches. For the most part, I
do 
>not think there is a one-to-one correspondance between concept in western 
>medicine and those in TCM. That doesn't make it mysticism at all; it just 

>means that one paradigm is not able to explain all phenomena in the other 
>paradigm. Nothing wrong with that. It just means they are not isomorphic, 

>that they have uncovered different characteristics and relations, that's 
>all. 
> 
>    -- Chris. 
> 
 Also, Paul Iannone, P.O.B. writes: 
 
"To everyone who is trying to solve this question by cramming East-Asian 
Traditional Healing into the box of Western scientific consciousness: Good 
luck, I wish you well, I hope you don't 'succeed.'  What is needed is _very

much_ an appreciation of the inherently MYSTICAL nature of human
existence." 
 
My response to the above 2 statements: 
Isomorphism is not a prereqisite in order to make a fruitful comparative
study of systems having different languages and worldviews.  Systems which
are attempts to describe the same fundamental reality, albeit from
different perspectives.  Are you saying that there is NO overlap and hence
possible bridges?  To stretch the mind is a useful exercise as are other
forms of meditation. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D. 
 
 
 
 


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On Sat, 11 Mar 1995 MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU wrote:

> re: Competency-based Standards and the future roles of the council
> 
> I would like to see your work. The Council of Colleges of Acupuncture and
> Oriental Medicine has convened a committee of which I am chair to explore
> definitions of primary care in our profession as well as defined scopes of
> practice for the various types of practitioners in our profession. You
> mentioned being an herbal practitioner. You should be aware that such
> specialization is considered, by some with the profession in the U.S., to be
> illegitimate unless practiced by someone who has been trained in all aspects of
> TCM, i.e., acupuncture, massage, herbs, etc. I would be interested in comparing
> the development of standards in Australia. Would you upload the file as a text
> document to my Compuserve account? INTERNET:76545.2617.compuserve.com. Thank
> you.
> 
> 
> 
I am aware of the issues around legitimacy and TCm versus Acupuncture or 
specialised practice/training/education. In Australia the largest 
acupuncture practitioner organsiation regards itself as utilisinmg TCm 
but is a "discrete profession"!! I have studied Acupuncture, Herbal 
Medicine, Dietary therapy, medical massage and orhtopedics and 
traumatology, but prefer to focus on what I am best at. I am also still a 
student, and hope to continue in this state until I am no longer able. I 
would be happy to forward this report as a text file, but it runs all 
together to around eighty pages of formatted text, which I understand i 
must convert to plain text (it is in Word for Windows 2 format), and this 
is a task I wil have to queue! It discloses the lack of genuine 
and widely accepted standards development in Australia, and the recent 
moves towards this. AS you would know, the task is a complex one which 
must accommodate present and future needs and integrate the variious 
branches of Chinese Medicine. 
I will certaainly be informing the council of your work, although I have 
no idea of your name or where you are based. Could you forward these 
details?
Perhaps it would be easier to send the report, but I'l await your reply 
and begin the conversion process anyway,

Cheers for now,

Peter Gigante
PO Box 1 Balaclava Vic AUSTRALIA 3183
Tel/fax: 613 530 0067


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:44:31 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: PEER REVIEW PROCESS QUESTION
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From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
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I have a question that I would like to send out there and would like some
feedback from other health practitioners (or people familiar with this)
concerning the peer review process.  There has been cases where a health
practitioner's treatment/treatment plan has been questioned by insurance
companies while treating No-Fault injury patients.  It then gets sent to the
Peer Review process and gets denied.  The catch is that the denial is made
by a health practitioner who is not in the same field.  

In other words, the title of "Peer Review" loses all its meaning as the
treatments are NOT being judged by your PEERS; but by a person, though in
the health field, is not qualifed, trained and generally not educated enough
in your field of medicine to adequately give accurate opinions and most of
all; decisions whether your treatment plan was justified.  An example of a
case is where you would have a M.D. reviewing a treatment protocol done by a
chiropractor; or a chiropractor doing the same to an acupuncturist, physical
therapist, etc.  

We are gathering information to try to pursue a hearing on the state level
here in Hawaii to clarify or to further define in greater detail these
points.  There is already in existence a Hawaii Revised Statute stating that
a Peer Review Organization HAS to include representation from the profession
of the provider who services are subject to review.  However, NO WHERE does
it state that this certain individual from the same profession should be the
one giving the judgement and making the decision whether to approve or to
deny.  So you then have some instances, for example, where it states on the
Peer Review decision statement that there IS representation from this
particular Peer Review Organization from your particular profession, but it
was reviewed and signed by ANOTHER totally different health practitioner
who, again, isn't qualified to make these decisions and hasn't stated
ANYWHERE that your peer has even seen the documents or been consulted.  

We would greatly appreciate any feedback from anyone out of state who has
seen the hypocrisy of this review process and has enacted legislature to
amend it.  Maybe there is someone out there who knows of someone familiar
with or has some experience or information to help in this situation.

Waiting to hear from you.

Nimai Lins  


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 02:09:17 1995
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Subject: Re: seizures
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From: zrosenberg@powergrid.electriciti.com (Z'ev Rosenberg)
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>At 11:38 AM 3/10/95 -0800, Z'ev Rosenberg wrote:
>>>I have a case study where I would appreciate some input.  The subject is a
>>>25-year old female.  She went off birth control pills 2 years ago, and she
>>>began having a variety of symptoms.  The most serious symptom is mild
>
>
>it's not Oriental medicine,
>but try one dose of homeopathic Folliculinum 30c
>I have seen it do wonders for what is essentially estrogen poisonong.
>
>As for acupuncture,
>palpate and treat Chong Mo,
>incl. ca. St. 27, Kd12

I also use folliculinum, but 200C generally, in such cases.  I agree with
Mitch, it is a great choice for 'estrogen poisoning'

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac. 



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 02:09:30 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: seizures
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: P_Iannone@lamg.com
X-Original-From: P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone)
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On 3/12/95 at 6:36 PM, The OrMed Mailing List wrote:

: Dear Zev
: 
:    Thank you for your informative reply.  I understand that her yang
: is low  and dampness is present.  I just don't understand why she
: would have  seizures as a result.  The dampness is preventing the
: clear yang from  reaching the head? Do you think a cold descending
: formula like Tian Ma Gou  Teng Yin would be okay as long as she is
: taking a warm blood tonic along with it?  

Solidify the diagnosis, don't give herbals with different directions and
concepts. This never works well.

: I was planning to use the
: tian ma just on the days when her  seizures would be more likely, in
: order to avoid too much cold. 
:    Also, I failed to mention that she hasn't had her period since
: this whole  process began.  The previous acupuncturist was giving
: her kidney qi pills in  patent form and some yang tonics from ITM,
: which are basically just ground  up herbs in pill form, which I
: don't feel are very strong.  The Tang Kwei  Gin seems to have had
: the most effect so far.  

Then skip the Damp theory, and go with Xue deficiency. Ba Zhen Tang (Eight
Treasures Pill). Xue deficiency will certainly cause Wind.

:    Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm seeing her Tuesday, and I'll try
: the  points you mentioned.  I'll let you know how things work out.
: 
: Bill

P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 02:09:48 1995
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From: zrosenberg@powergrid.electriciti.com (Z'ev Rosenberg)
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>On 3/10/95 at 7:38 PM, L'ev wrote:
>
>: Dear Bill,
> 
>
>Why fish? Fish is Cooler than other flesh foods. It would seem that beef or
>lamb would be preferable.
>
>I would also be unlikely to use such Hot herbals as Fu zi Li Zhong Wan,
>unless other signs of Cold were present. What is really there would seem to
>be Qi mechanism disfunction. That the seizures are mild suggests Spleen Qi
>depletion, not really Cold or Damp, or per se Yang depletion. Also, Xue
>depletion is likely after birth control pills, and a likely causative of the
>Wind, and a formula like Gui Pi Tang would address that.
>
   Fish, if prepared with garlic, ginger, or if salmon, for example is
used, does not have to be so cooling.  Also grilling is a warm method of
cooking that can be used.
   Beef is fairly damp and fatty to be used in this case, I think lamb
would be fine.
   Without clear pulse or abdominal palpation, it is difficult to discern
the degree of cold, damp, or dysfunction of the qi mechanism at this point.
 Also, I see much more damp stasis in my cases after use of birth control
pills than xue depletion; of course, this would depend on pre-existing
conditions, length of time on pill, etc.
   Perhaps Bill can expand more on the case: his observations of pulse,
damp, blood vacuity, etc.

Z'ev Rosenberg



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 02:11:26 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: seizures
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: P_Iannone@lamg.com
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On 3/13/95 at 10:40 PM, The OrMed Mailing List wrote:

: >I'll bet she was on those biphasic birth control pills. 
: >
: My main reason for posting this case study is to get some input on
: the  periodic nature of the seizures, i.e., every two weeks.  I
: would like to  hear what your idea is in regard to biphasic pills
: and how they affect the cycle from a TCM perspective.

Well, the pill you take before ovulation causes Liver Qi Stagnation, and the
one you take before the menses is a Blood Activator. Every two weeks? Wind
from Xue deficiency, then Wind from Liver Qi Stagnation. 
 
:  
: >  Xiao Yao Wan doesn't
: >: seem to  help
: >
: >>Don't Disperse deficiency!
: 
: Actually, she had a wiry pulse and no menses at the time I gave her
: Xiao yao wan. It is indicated for qi stagnation with blood
: deficiency, and I gave it along with tang kwei gin, which is a qi
: and blood tonic.  I understand your point, though.  I'm just
: wondering how there can be seizures without liver involvement.

Liver involvement in deficient Xue Wind is plenty conceivable. My guess that
in this case the Liver Qi Stagnation side is less than the Xue deficiency. I
would go with Ba Zhen Tang, which acts famously in ammenorrhea of this sort.
Leave the Liver along herbally until the Xue is more full (the Peony in Ba
Zhen Tang will smooth the Liver Qi. Bupleuri is too aggressive). Xiao Yao San
is an important formula, but I would resist keynoting it (or any formula) in
this way--it is better to study the individual herbals and the formula
balance. Xiao Yao San is PRIMARILY for Qi Stagnation, not for Xue deficiency.
As I have said, many herbalists have found that Chai hu is too aggressive in
cases of Xue deficiency. Replenish first.



P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:37:17 1995
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Subject: Re: Blood at Acupuncture points
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From: GLane3390@aol.com
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Hi Gary,  I don't know who told you that only one point was supposed to bleed
after the needle was removed.  However, I can tell you that it is often
therapeutic for some blood to be let out of many of the points.  So, don't
worry too much. Unless you begin to feel light-headed, or faint.
Greg Lane,L.Ac.


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:37:28 1995
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I hope that it is not too much to ask if anyone in this newsgroup would
share any case histories of theirs involving the treatment of the lower
back: especially cases where not too many points were used, or  where distal
points were the main approach to the treatment, and finally any treatment
using laser, magnets, moxa, acupressure, needle, etc. .
Could you also tell me of any relevant diagnosis that you made or any there
were made that isn't related to acupuncture, such as a MRI, an
Electomyogram, CT scan, or any orthopedic test, etc

Please send me this information  and put my name Janet or "lower back
syndrome" and I will get it. 

I hope to get some response out there!

Thanks!

Janet   


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Subject: Headache
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X-Status: 

Hi there.

I would appreciate if the acupuncturist in this newsgroup could help me to
put together a collection of cases on headaches. If you could send me cases
of different kinds of headaches, especially ones that the treatment was not
a conventional one?  Cases where the stimulation of the acupuncture points
was done by acupressure,laser, magnets, moxa,anything but the use of a
needle. I'd like to hear any case histories, with your diagnosis or
treatment protocol including the points used, and everything related to the
case.  It could also include any other diagnosis done out of the field of
acupuncture or any medication taken by the patient at the time that you did
the treatment.

Please contribute to our collection of cases in headache syndrom:I'd love to
put a book collection of clinical cases related to headache syndrome and the
different ways to treat it. 

The Group

Greg


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Subject: salary grosses
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From: Christine <christin@maxwell.ee.washington.edu>
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I have a friend who has been looking towards Naturopathy as a profession.
He is completing his science courses now.  He is wondering how much might 
an individual make during the first years starting out.  Everyone is 
encouraging him to go into debt on school loans but he is wary of that.
Of course, this will vary by region.  Can anyone give any ballpark numbers?

The second part of this question is that initially my friend was very 
interested in traditional Chinese medicine.  However, he was told the 
acupuncture/tcm license will not tranfer out of State.  I can understand 
that you have to take a test for each State but what about the training?  
If you study in California and test in Arizona or Nevada (or anywhere 
else for that matter) can you practice?

Thank you for any assistance.

Christine Charters


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We like to bring an interesting case where we feel that there is a Mechanism
behind the Mechanism.  We have in our group an acupuncturist that
specializes in headaches.  He has been working in this field for many years
with a lot of success.  He believes that in acupuncture, there is the
energetic and the neuro pathways; where in many times there is an
interelationship between the two, and that the brain controls many of these
relationships.  He believes that energy is a subtle form of matter and
nerves are a more visible dense form of matter.  The point here; is that
thru the intelligently organized, beautifully complex function of the brain,
a special command can be given by the energectic to the neurological systems
and or vice versa.

The case is a male with complete paralysis of the lower limbs when he was in
a motocycle accident 25 years ago.  He had completely broken vertebraes
with no feeling whatsoever below the navel.  The legs were very skiny and
according to the patient, there was no feeling in both legs for more than 20
years.  The patient came in the office with a major headache complaint where
he was taking heavy dosages of motrin as much as he felt was necessary.  My
friend the acupuncturist used pressure over a particular point in this
patient's feet, and he  got results in about 15 minutes.  

He explained that there is still a certain amount of neurological function
in the legs even though it is not apparent at all.  He added that without
the normal functions of the nerves, the acupuncture point has difficulty in
processing the function information that these points  have.  Even though
the neurologic aspect of the leg was not present to a certain degree, he
managed to get the  acupressure stimulation information to the cephalic region. 
He mentioned that there are other mechanims involved in this picture
syndrome that are completely controlled by the receptor mode of the brain
and the reflex relationship between the acupuncture point and the regional
headache.
Not to mention that this acupuncture stimulation surpassed the over-drugged
condition that this patient was with Motrin for 9 days.  I thought that the
receptivity of the neurologic or energetic part of this patient was
completely drugged and no response would be possible; not even taking into
consideration the fact that this person was a paraplegic with no feeling at
all in his legs.  

Continues in the next posting.

Group


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:38:56 1995
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A good source of Five Element Theiry and personal exploration as well as
practitionber apllication is "Between Heaven and Earth" by Beinfield and
Korngold.  Good Luck


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:39:19 1995
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>   Without clear pulse or abdominal palpation, it is difficult to discern
>the degree of cold, damp, or dysfunction of the qi mechanism at this point.
> Also, I see much more damp stasis in my cases after use of birth control
>pills than xue depletion; of course, this would depend on pre-existing
>conditions, length of time on pill, etc.
>   Perhaps Bill can expand more on the case: his observations of pulse,
>damp, blood vacuity, etc.
>

Mitch, Zev: I'll give the homeopathic remedy a try. Just one time at normal 
dosage?

Zev, Paul: Thank you both for your informative replies.  I believe you both 
are correct in your long-distance assessments.  The diagnoses I am working 
with are :

1. Spleen Qi deficiency with dampness (weak slippery pulse, weight gain, 
sluggishness, foggy thinking, puffy wet tongue, hypoglycemia)

2. Heart and Liver Blood deficiency leading to stagnation and wind 
(dream-disturbed sleep, poor memory, dull-pale complexion, amenorrhea, 
seizures, purple pale shaking tongue)

She has been taking Tang Kwei Gin, which is essentially Ba Zhen Wan in 
liquid form. At this point, I'm going to try bulk herbs or have Brion make a 
custom mix.  Ba Zhen Wan (with reduced amount of rehmannia to avoid 
dampness) along with Li Zhong Wan (without fu zi to avoid toxicity, and 
codonopsis instead of ginseng, since ginseng gives her headaches) should be 
a good combination.  I'm considering adding gastrodia and uncaria to protect 
against liver wind, along with long yan rou and gou qi zi to nourish heart 
and liver.

No current status of tongue and pulse, since she lives 40 miles away and 
three bridges washed out this week. At least the drought is over.





From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:39:31 1995
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Hi there again.

Here is the continuation of the case on headache:

This practitioner saw many cases on headaches where he feels that the
acupuncture stimulation starts the energetic process and at the same time,
there is another mechanism
that underlies these difficult cases.  He many times mentioned that there is
much to learn in the field of the relationship between the different systems
in the human body and the secret functions of the Brain.

This case might sound like an easy treatment where it only took 15 minutes,
but there is a lot of experience behind this short tx. He had a lot of cases
like this; and he believes that in the future there will be more discoveries
in the field of the many mechanisms that are initiated when acupuncture
treatment is in process.

He wants to mention that he lost many cases of headaches where he applied
all his knowledge and the body didn't respond positively--he says that is
when HE gets his headaches.

Thanks,
 
The Group 
by Janet  


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:39:42 1995
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Hi, Chris.

We disagree with the suggestion that for Medicine to be Scientific, there is
a need to build an explanation in the Western Scientific Tradition.  We, in
fact have no doubt that there is major Science involved in the practice of
Acupuncture--taking into consideration the repeated positive
results in clinical practice for thousands of years.  There are major
collections of clinical data written in those thousands of years proving the
repeated successful results
for many disorders leading us to the belief of the Scientific Level of
Acupuncture in Medicine.  

We believe that in the body, there is a very Intelligent Organized System;
and within this System there is many other systems that work in harmony.
Based on this idea, we understand that a relationship exists between
physiology, neurology, biochemistry, immunology, psycology, etc. . .
including the energetic system of meridians (QI).  If you agree with me that
the body works in a complex organized manner, then you will have to see that
the energetic system of acupuncture has a deep relationship with all those
systems that I mentioned above.  

The fact is; neurology, physiology, psychology, and others are not Western,
they are just SCIENCE.  SCIENCE IS SCIENCE, not Western or Eastern.  All
these Sciences have a relationship to each other and the purpose in our
group is to bring the neurophysiological aspect of this relation in
Acupuncture.  What about the subjects " NEUROCHEMICAL BASIS OF ACUPUNCTURE
IN ANALGESIA","NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL MECHANISM INVOLVED IN PAIN RELIEVING
EFFECTS BY ACUPUNCTURE".  These subjects have been investigated for many
years in medicine, and the outcome is that when acupuncture stimulation is
applied to a specific disorder, there is a release  production of
neurochemicals, neurological attenuations in sensory process for the control
of pain; there are physiological changes on vicero somatic discharges, etc. . . 
This clearly shows the relationship between acupuncture stimulation and the
natural reaction imput from the other systems.

The question is: Do we want to see these relationships; or do we just want
to accept tonsillitis as a deficiency/excess heat syndrome and forgeting the
bacteriological aspect to this pathological picture? Thanks for the support.


Nimai 



From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:40:46 1995
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Hi Gary
It's very common for points on the ear to bleed after removing the needle.  
Points elsewhere on the body will sometimes leave a drop of blood, but it 
happens less often.

>Hello..anyone out there????
>
>  I took an Oriental First Aid class a year or so ago and the 
>chiropractor/acupuncture person who gave the course said that there was 
>only one acupuncture point that blood should show up when the needle was 
>removed.  Through the hustle and bustle of the class he failed to tell 
>where the point was located.  I'm taking acupuncture sessions now and 
>frequently blood shows up after needles are removed in my ear and feet.  
>Is my acupuncturist trying to kill me or what? <G> Comments?
>
>Gary Kuhn
>
>
>.-
>
>


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Thu Mar 16 12:40:56 1995
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Hi Paul,

In response to your statement that "cramming East-Asian Traditional healing
into the box of Western Scientific Consciousness." And to your other
statement "the hope that we don't succeed in this matter".

First, I would like to say that we used to think like that; but being in
contact with some of the ideas and fundaments presented by many great health
practitioners from all parts of this world and with the only objective of
investigate  medicine for the benefit of mankind, our perspective has
changed.  There is no need to hope that we don't "succeed" on this subject:
Creation has succeeded alredy in the perfect relationship combination
between all the Sciences.  The only question is: Do we want to see it ?
 
We appreciate your comments.

Kimberly


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On 3/16/95 at 9:18 AM, someone wrote:

: She has been taking Tang Kwei Gin, which is essentially Ba Zhen Wan
: in  liquid form. At this point, I'm going to try bulk herbs or have
: Brion make a  custom mix.  Ba Zhen Wan (with reduced amount of
: rehmannia to avoid  dampness) along with Li Zhong Wan (without fu zi
: to avoid toxicity, and  codonopsis instead of ginseng, since ginseng
: gives her headaches) should be  a good combination.  I'm considering
: adding gastrodia and uncaria to protect  against liver wind, along
: with long yan rou and gou qi zi to nourish heart  and liver.

Just a comment. I consider this approach over-considered. I would simply give
Gui Pi Tang and not mix things up. After all, if you're dealing with weak
digestion, simple approaches are best. Lifestyle is more important in weak
digestion cases than herbals anyhow (does she drink coffee, eat the wrong
things, skip or delay meals?). 

Tank Kwei Gin is very low quality. A good concentrate of Ba Zhen Tang really
does the job, and I have never personally seen a need to reduce the rehmannia
in the formula.

I am also staunchly opposed to keynoted homeopathics. 


P_Iannone@lamg.com


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From: Bill Upton-Knittle                   <EIW8BUK@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
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> it is often
> therapeutic for some blood to be let out of many of the points.  So, don't
> worry too much. Unless you begin to feel light-headed, or faint.
> Greg Lane,L.Ac.

Whaaa???? This went out with leeches. Can you cite any accepted TCM
manual or allopathic medicine manual to back up this claim?

   Bill Knittle

[ Virtually *every* TCM text discusses bleeding points for therapeutic
effect. This has been, and is, a part of Chinese medicine for quite 
some time. The technique involved, however, is quite different than
old Western ideas of bleeding. Leeches and other European bleeding
techniques were used to remove relatively large quanities of blood 
on the theory that the patient was suffering from an oversupply.

TCM bleeding involves pricking a point to draw a drop or two, not
unlike the finger-prick blood tests we are all familiar with. This 
is used primarily in emergency medicine, though it has other clinical 
applications as well, for fever, pain, mania, heart problems, high 
blood pressure, certain types of arthritis and many other indications. 
In TCM terms, the primary patterns are heat and stagnation.

I personally have seen, and experienced, the efficacy of pricking 
points on the fingers to lower very high fevers and reduce very 
sore throats. I can't say that I minded losing a drop or two of 
blood, either, in exchange for a lower body temperature and much 
quieter thoughts. 

BTW, leeches are back in Western medicine.

Norm (OrMed Moderator) ]

From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Fri Mar 17 12:35:31 1995
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Hi there,

I am looking to update my point detector for auriculotherapy.
If someone knows a supplier that carries a good machine, please write me.
Thank you for any help in this request.

Janet


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>Hi, Chris.
>
>We disagree with the suggestion that for Medicine to be Scientific, there is
>a need to build an explanation in the Western Scientific Tradition.  We, in
>fact have no doubt that there is major Science involved in the practice of
>Acupuncture--taking into consideration the repeated positive
>results in clinical practice for thousands of years.  There are major
>collections of clinical data written in those thousands of years proving the
>repeated successful results
>for many disorders leading us to the belief of the Scientific Level of
>Acupuncture in Medicine.  
>
>We believe that in the body, there is a very Intelligent Organized System;
>and within this System there is many other systems that work in harmony.
>Based on this idea, we understand that a relationship exists between
>physiology, neurology, biochemistry, immunology, psycology, etc. . .
>including the energetic system of meridians (QI).  If you agree with me that
>the body works in a complex organized manner, then you will have to see that
>the energetic system of acupuncture has a deep relationship with all those
>systems that I mentioned above.  
>
>The fact is; neurology, physiology, psychology, and others are not Western,
>they are just SCIENCE.  SCIENCE IS SCIENCE, not Western or Eastern.  All
>these Sciences have a relationship to each other and the purpose in our
>group is to bring the neurophysiological aspect of this relation in
>Acupuncture.  What about the subjects " NEUROCHEMICAL BASIS OF ACUPUNCTURE
>IN ANALGESIA","NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL MECHANISM INVOLVED IN PAIN RELIEVING
>EFFECTS BY ACUPUNCTURE".  These subjects have been investigated for many
>years in medicine, and the outcome is that when acupuncture stimulation is
>applied to a specific disorder, there is a release  production of
>neurochemicals, neurological attenuations in sensory process for the control
>of pain; there are physiological changes on vicero somatic discharges, etc. .
>. 
>This clearly shows the relationship between acupuncture stimulation and the
>natural reaction imput from the other systems.
>
>The question is: Do we want to see these relationships; or do we just want
>to accept tonsillitis as a deficiency/excess heat syndrome and forgeting the
>bacteriological aspect to this pathological picture? Thanks for the support.
>
>
>Nimai

Dear Nimai,
   Since everything is interrelated, certainly it is "permissable" to
discuss acupuncture in terms of neurology, physiology, etc.  However, these
discussions are still speculative, especially in light of the fact that
neuroscience is still an evolving field, by no means complete in explaining
even straight-forward physiological phenomena.  The Chinese model includes
some of what we would call science, but the paradigm in which this science
occurs differs greatly from biomedical sciences (because of the biomedical
paradigm).
  As I have mentioned in early posts to this forum, I feel that Chinese
medicine and modern Western science will meet in the realm of
complexity,uncertaintly, chaos and systems theory, which still are not a
great influence in the world of biomedicine.

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M. 



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Subject: Qi and Tao
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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To further fuel stimulating discussion, I have attatched below the course
description of one of the courses offered at the Renaissance Naturopathic
Centre (Toronto).  I hope that it will offer clarification of my views on
the concepts of Qi and Tao. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D. 
 
 
Taoist Yoga Philosophy - T 03 
 
 
The Taoist tradition traces its roots to the 3rd century B.C. with Lao
Tze's text, Tao Te Ching.  Since that time many other literary works have
been completed elucidating the cosmology and philosophy of Taoism.  Other
works, including The Secret of the Golden Flower, focus on internal ritual
which aims to strengthen the practitioner s connection with Tao (manifest &
unmanifest reality).   
 
The first literary work on traditional Chinese Medicine emerged in the 3rd
century B.C.; The Yellow Emperor s Classic of Internal Medicine is itself
steeped in the philosophy of Taoism.  The ancients  understanding of
body/mind was energic as well as physical and the Taoist conception bears
an influence from the native Chinese tradition as well as the Yogic
tradition of India.  In Taoist Yoga the meridians of traditional Chinese
Medicine as well as the Chakras (centres of consciousness) from the Indian
tradition are utilized.  In Taoist Yoga, the flow of Qi in the body/mind,
is modulated.  Qi inter-connects the various components of body/mind as
well as connecting the human with the cosmos.  Proficiency in modulating
the flow of Qi is a fundamental aim of both traditional Chinese Medicine
and Taoist Yoga. 
 
The movement of Qi is discerned via body-centered sensations as well as by
attendant changes in awareness.  Qi is a concept which connects mind and
body *since Qi is discernible via both avenues*.  The correlations between
these two types of self-awareness are the key to repairing any mind-body
split caused by current models of reality.  It follows also that the flow
of Qi may be modulated via both body-oriented and mental techniques.  The
techniques in The Secret of the Golden Flower utilize both avenues of
Qi-modulation. 
 
Chinese medicine concerns itself primarily with treatment of disease; i.e.,
the movement from illness to health.  Taoist Yoga is an extension of this
process where one aims to move from health to  radiance .  The focus of
Taoist Yoga is on an accumulation and modulation of Qi with attendant
changes in awareness as one moves from one level of proficiency to another.
 The description of these states of body/mind awareness is perhaps the most
mystified aspect of Taoist Yoga.  Classical texts provide the means by
which the outlined practises may be understood and The Secret of the Golden
Flower is perhaps the most accessible of these texts. 
 
 
 
"The True man of ancient times did not rebel against want, did not grow
proud in plenty, and did not plan his affairs.  A man like this could
commit an error and not regret it, could meet with success and not make a
show.  A man like this could climb the high places and not be frightened,
could enter the water and not get wet, could enter the fire and not get
burned. His knowledge was able to climb all the way up to Tao like this. 
 
The True Man of ancient times slept without dreaming and woke without care;
he ate without savouring and his breath came from deep inside.  The True
Man breathes with his heels; the mass of men breathe with their throats. 
Crushed and bound down, they gasp out their words as though they were
retching.  Deep in their passions and desires, they are shallow in the
workings of heaven. 
 
The True Man of ancient times knew nothing of loving life, knew nothing of
hating death.  He emerged without delight; he went back in without a fuss. 
He came briskly, he went briskly, and that was all.  He didn't forget where
he began; he didn t try to find out where he would end.  He received
something and took pleasure in it; he forgot about it and handed it back
again." 
 
                                                                  Chang-Tzu
(3rd century B.C.) 
 
 
This course is an in depth study of the classic treatise on Taoist Yoga,
The Secret of the Golden Flower.  In this course we will explore the Taoist
world view including its understanding of body/mind. 


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I work with low level laser  in some of my treatments.I have a laser from
Germany, but I want to buy another one ,could someone lead me to any
supplier in the U.S.?
Thanks a million.
Hope to get any response.
Romel


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I am interested in exchange some words with someone,that is current using a
Low LEVEL lASER in clinic.Please write, if you want to exchange some ideas
in the field of laser.
Please write .
Thanks
Romel


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>Mitch, Zev: I'll give the homeopathic remedy a try. Just one time at normal 
>dosage?           try 200C once a week for three weeks.
>
>Zev, Paul: Thank you both for your informative replies.  I believe you both 
>are correct in your long-distance assessments.  The diagnoses I am working 
>with are :
>
>1. Spleen Qi deficiency with dampness (weak slippery pulse, weight gain, 
>sluggishness, foggy thinking, puffy wet tongue, hypoglycemia)
>
>2. Heart and Liver Blood deficiency leading to stagnation and wind 
>(dream-disturbed sleep, poor memory, dull-pale complexion, amenorrhea, 
>seizures, purple pale shaking tongue)
>
>She has been taking Tang Kwei Gin, which is essentially Ba Zhen Wan in 
>liquid form. At this point, I'm going to try bulk herbs or have Brion make a 
>custom mix.  Ba Zhen Wan (with reduced amount of rehmannia to avoid 
>dampness) along with Li Zhong Wan (without fu zi to avoid toxicity, and 
>codonopsis instead of ginseng, since ginseng gives her headaches) should be 
>a good combination.  I'm considering adding gastrodia and uncaria to protect 
>against liver wind, along with long yan rou and gou qi zi to nourish heart 
>and liver.
>
>No current status of tongue and pulse, since she lives 40 miles away and 
>three bridges washed out this week. At least the drought is over.

Please check to find the interrelationship with the two diagnoses given
here.  i.e, how both spleen qi vacuity with damp and liver blood vacuity
developed at the same time, and how they interrelate (five phase pattern
diagnosis and Li Dong Yuen's work may help here).  The ideas behind the
formula are good, but still not a complete whole (too many ingredients,
compatability not necessarily established).  Refine the prescription a bit
more, check the original formulas in Bensky for classical modifications. 
  I am not very impressed with Brion's product potency (aromatics are
removed by processing).  Kanpo/Herbcare or Qualiherb have stronger
extractions available. 

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.



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On 3/15/95 at 8:19 AM, The OrMed Mailing List wrote:

: Isomorphism is not a prereqisite in order to make a fruitful
: comparative study of systems having different languages and
: worldviews.  

Kind of depends which language you do it in, doesn't it?

: Systems which are attempts to describe the same
: fundamental reality, albeit from different perspectives.  

I consider that presumptuous. Are these 'the same reality,' or is that a
Western logical bias?

: Are you
: saying that there is NO overlap and hence possible bridges?  To
: stretch the mind is a useful exercise as are other forms of meditation. 
:  
: Pankaj Seth, N.D. 

My primary concern in this regard is that the understanding of Qi that a
practitioner must arrive at CANNOT be acquired through scientific endeavor.
As such, these concerns are premature for the great majority of
practitioners, who would be much better off learning about Qi via the
meditative, Qi Gong and Tai Ji Quan (or Dao Yin), bodywork, and contemplative
routes that all their predecessors used. Trying to find a way around that, by
'scientizing' Qi is foolish. If practitioners want to discuss the
implications, fine with me, but attempting to substitute these wonderings for
practical knowledge is absurd.



P_Iannone@lamg.com


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>  As I have mentioned in early posts to this forum, I feel that Chinese 
>medicine and modern Western science will meet in the realm of 
>complexity,uncertaintly, chaos and systems theory, which still are not a 
>great influence in the world of biomedicine. 
> 
>Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.  
 
Dear Z'ev 
 
I think you are correct.  We are at the point where this type of work is
beginning.  Many people have begun to think in this way.  The first steps
will likely be a little clumsy, but that is to be expected.  I find the
uncertainty concept, as expressed by Prigogine to be especially important. 
The breakthroughs will come from those who are well versed in both the
traditional and current theories and concepts and it would certainly be a
big plus if such individuals were involved in some form of personal
discipline vis a vis Taoist Yoga, Qi gong, martial arts. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D. 
 


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Look around for a beginners Hatha Yoga class. It will do your spine more 
long term good, for less $, than anything else I have ever heard of. Very 
good for general health also. If you cannot find a class, get a video or 
book and begin on your own. Be very gentle with yourself as it is easy to 
hurt yourself by overstretching when you are first learning.

This is not to knock the disciplines mentioned. I use them all and I am a 
LMP myself. But no amount of treatment can make up for those long hours 
of sitting at a desk without moving your spine. Good luck and I hope you 
feel better soon.
-k

On Sat, 11 Mar 1995, HURLBUT, KELLI PALOM wrote:

> does anyone know of a good acupuncturist, shiatsu or massage
> therapist in athens or atlanta, georgia?  i have pretty intense
> upper to middle back and neck pain by the end of the day (i am
> a student)  any recommendations would be appreciated.
> kelli
> kelli@music.cc.uga.edu
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: Ayurveda: history brief
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AYURVEDA:  HISTORY BRIEF 
 
Genesis and Development:  Ayurveda, the oldest system of medicine in the
world, traces its roots to the Vedic period in ancient India (1500 B.C.). 
The Rig Veda, a compilation of verse on the nature of existence, is the
oldest surviving book of any Indo-European language (l500 B.C.). The Rig
Veda refers to the cosmology known as Sankhya which lies at the base of
both Ayurveda and Yoga; in it are verses on the nature of health and
disease, pathogenesis and principles of treatment. The Atreya Samhita is
the oldest medical book in the world; it survives from Takashila University
which was operating as early as 800 B.C.  The Atharva Veda (800 B.C.) lists
the Eight Divisions of Ayurveda: Internal Medicine, Surgery of Head and
Neck, Opthamology and Otorinolaryngology, Surgery, Toxicology, Psychiatry,
Paediatrics, Gerontology or Science of Rejuvenation, and the Science of
Fertility.  At 500 B.C. at the university at Benares, Sushruta, a surgeon
who developed the operative techniques of rhinoplasty  (plastic  surgery),
wrote the Sushruta Samhita  which describes a highly developed surgery.  In
l00 A.D., the physician Charaka revised and supplemented the Atreya
Samhita; the Charaka Samhita  is a major work on internal medicine. 
Ayurveda evolved in an ancient culture which understood the human condition
to be limitless; the day to day observance of Ayurvedic principles creates
a strong body, clarity of mind and tranquillity of spirit so the individual
may move closer to realizing her/his true potential.  In order to further
this movement the disciplines of Yoga and Tantra were also formulated
during this rich period.  
 
Influence of Ayurveda on East and West:  By 400 A.D., Ayurvedic works were
translated into Chinese; by 700 A.D., Chinese scholars were studying
medicine in India at Nalanda University.  Indian thought, as well as
influencing Chinese spirituality and philosophy through Buddhism, greatly
influenced Chinese medicine and herbology through Ayurveda.  In 800 A.D.,
Ayurvedic works were translated into Arabic.  A  century later, under
physicians such as Avicenna and Razi Serapion, both of whom quoted Indian
texts, Islamic medicine became very influential in Europe, helping to form
the foundation of the European tradition in medicine.  In 16th century
Europe, Paracelsus, who is known as the father of modern Western medicine,
practised and propagated a system of medicine which borrowed heavily from
Ayurveda. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D.


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Sat Mar 18 14:03:10 1995
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Subject: Re: Cramming Energy into Science
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From: shiatsu@werple.mira.net.au (Peter Gigante)
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Hi Kimberly,

I agree, since the universe has already got it together while we are still 
attempting to understand it. If science can enlighten ou understanding, I'm 
willing to celebrate it. Chinese Medicine is organic and must not stop 
growing due to sentimentality for "tradition". In China this seems to work 
reasonably from within the Asian context; In the west we too can seek to 
build the bridges of knowledge and wisdom from this side too. Chinese 
Medicine has provided the guiding influence in my life and I am not an 
apologist for China, western medicine or anything else, but it seems the 
only limitation lies with the current collective capacity of human 
consciousness, not with the boundaries of "science." 
Finally, I'm really enjoying the interaction on this mailing list, so thanks 
to all, including those to whom I don't reply;

Cheers,

Peter Gigante

>Hi Paul,
>
>In response to your statement that "cramming East-Asian Traditional healing
>into the box of Western Scientific Consciousness." And to your other
>statement "the hope that we don't succeed in this matter".
>
>First, I would like to say that we used to think like that; but being in
>contact with some of the ideas and fundaments presented by many great health
>practitioners from all parts of this world and with the only objective of
>investigate  medicine for the benefit of mankind, our perspective has
>changed.  There is no need to hope that we don't "succeed" on this subject:
>Creation has succeeded alredy in the perfect relationship combination
>between all the Sciences.  The only question is: Do we want to see it ?
> 
>We appreciate your comments.
>
>Kimberly
>
>
>
>
Peter Gigante

East West Therapies
TCM SHIATSU THERAPIES P/L
P.O BOX 1
Balaclava Vic.
AUSTRALIA  3183


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Sat Mar 18 14:03:38 1995
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Request for information about clinical internships in China
   
  Does anyone know of a high quality acupuncture
   internship program where the emphasis is
   hands on diagnosis and treatment?
   
 I am a recent graduate of an American school and
   do not speak Chinese.
     
Please let me know as soon as possible since I'm planning for the summer.
   
         Thank you,
   
                               Michael


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Sat Mar 18 14:03:42 1995
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>  I am not very impressed with Brion's product potency (aromatics are
>removed by processing).  Kanpo/Herbcare or Qualiherb have stronger
>extractions available. 
>
>Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.
>


   Did you determine this by the flavor or smell of the extract?  Have you 
had better results with those brands than with Brion?  I've had some great 
results with Brion, so I would be interested to find something stronger in a 
dried concentrate.
   I find that the closed ethanol liquid extracts from Jade Pharmacy are the 
strongest next to bulk herbs.  Their parent company has been making my 
allergy and sleep formulas for a few years, and they are pretty potent.  The 
stuff tastes nasty, though, so I'd like to have access to the most 
concentrated dry extracts for patient compliance.


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Sat Mar 18 14:03:47 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
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Subject: Re: Re: Blood at Acupuncture points
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On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Bill Upton-Knittle wrote:

> > therapeutic for some blood to be let out of many of the points.  So, don't
> > Greg Lane,L.Ac.
> 
> Whaaa???? This went out with leeches. Can you cite any accepted TCM
> manual or allopathic medicine manual to back up this claim?
>    Bill Knittle
> 
> [ Virtually *every* TCM text discusses bleeding points for therapeutic
> 
> TCM bleeding involves pricking a point to draw a drop or two, not
> is used primarily in emergency medicine, though it has other clinical 
> applications as well, for fever, pain, mania, heart problems, high 
> blood pressure, certain types of arthritis and many other indications. 
> In TCM terms, the primary patterns are heat and stagnation.
> Norm (OrMed Moderator) ]
> 
With patients that have had chronic eczema, sometimes there is a single 
callused area that is much slower to resolve (I've seen primarily on back 
of hand and top of foot due to years of scratching). Remarkable results 
have been obtained by using the seven star hammer followed by cupping. 
First lightly strike the callused area to break the skin and let minute 
drops of blood then apply cups which will draw a small amount of blood 
within the cup. I have never had to repeat the procedure more than two 
times and the skin quickly becomes baby fresh. The patients don't 
complain and have encouraged me to apply this to other stubborn 
unresolved areas. Yes I do treat their constitution but some long 
standing spots don't seemed to budge until this technique is applied.
  
For now 
Jerry Boyle


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From: shiatsu@werple.mira.net.au (Peter Gigante)
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Hi Jane,

I recently had an interesting case of a 79 year old European women who was 
refferred to me for a herbal consltation. She complained of a severe back 
pain which had persisited over 30 years. She described the pain as being 
like a knife thrust into her back and agitated everytwo or three minutes, 
tothe point where she could not breathe or move. Between these attacks she 
could not sit for any length, was very agitated and distressed and was at 
the end of her tether. She had had MRI's, x-rays, cat scans and had 
consulted neurologists, orthopaedic surgeons, chiropractors, acupuncturists, 
medical prationers, and various others. She had been receiving shiatsu for 
about a year, which offerred only temporary relief.

Her pulse was tight and slightly rapid, her tongue was dull and sticky, her 
complexion was a little grey. She had no significant digestive disturbance, 
was lucid of mind, but feeling desperate. her abdomenal wall was taut, her 
back also, especialy around Ganshu UB 18. 
I asked her what happened at the time the symptoms first arose and she 
desribed a trip to Italy with her husband whcih culminated in the cessation 
of her marriage. Apparently a priest had advised her enough was enough, her 
husband was abusing her and she must have been very distressed at leaving 
her marriage without any other choice. (He allegedly was a "bastard") Soon 
after this she travelled with her daughter and son in law through Europe in 
a car, which was very uncomfortable for her, as her back had began to feel 
tight and sore. She later left for Australia. When I asled her how she felt 
throughout this time, she almost shook as she described her fury, hatred, 
and shame (at having these feelings!) 

She told me she had not explored these issues with any of the therapists she 
had seen since she did not believe they were medically relevent?!!

Since my only diagnosis avbailable after this was depression of Liver Qi due 
to emotional injury, I felt that the best treatment principle (since I had 
no analgesics stronge than anything she had already tried, and she had had 
two injections of Morphine in the last weeek with no effect, unlike previous 
occasions when she had resorted to this prescription, I determined to gently 
ease the Liver and promote circulation of Qi. I prescribed Xiao Yao Wan with 
Yan Hu suo added (only 3 gms daily) and applied acupressure to UB 18, GB 34, 
Liv. 3 and 13 and so on. I advised that the arisal of her repressed feelings 
could be expected. Two days later, she rang some friends suggesting she was 
breaking down, and when they arrived, she broke into a howling cry which 
continued on and off for around three hours. After this she realised she had 
very little pain which continued to clear for the remainder of the day, 
leaving her in a state she had not experienced for 30 years. She later rang 
the referring practitioner (whom she had rung with moderate scepticism of 
the emotional link after I had seen her) to report these events. She is due 
to return next week. I expect the story is not over, and she may require 
support as more of this history re-emerges, bu it illustrates the potency of 
emotional injury and the importance of treating according to a proper 
diiferentation of syndrome (bian zheng) even when symptoms seem overwhelming.

I am indebted to her, and hope her case is of interest. Being a shiatsu 
therapist, I see many people with back syndromes and have many such stories 
which I am happy to share.
  
Cheers, 
>
>
>I hope that it is not too much to ask if anyone in this newsgroup would
>share any case histories of theirs involving the treatment of the lower
>back: especially cases where not too many points were used, or  where distal
>points were the main approach to the treatment, and finally any treatment
>using laser, magnets, moxa, acupressure, needle, etc. .
>Could you also tell me of any relevant diagnosis that you made or any there
>were made that isn't related to acupuncture, such as a MRI, an
>Electomyogram, CT scan, or any orthopedic test, etc
>
>Please send me this information  and put my name Janet or "lower back
>syndrome" and I will get it. 
>
>I hope to get some response out there!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Janet   
>
>
>
>
Peter Gigante

East West Therapies
TCM SHIATSU THERAPIES P/L
P.O BOX 1
Balaclava Vic.
AUSTRALIA  3183


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Sat Mar 18 14:04:13 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Materialistic validation, was Re: acupuncture
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: P_Iannone@lamg.com
X-Original-From: P_Iannone@lamg.com (Paul Iannone)
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On 3/15/95 at 8:18 AM, The OrMed Mailing List wrote:

: I understand your criticisms; I wrote the article in order for 1st
: year shiatsu students to gain a deeper understanding of Qi.  The
: metaphors and comparisons used at times ARE too materialistic. 

Then how does this allow a 'deeper' understanding?

: That
: is sometimes the price of using the written word ( or words at all).

Indeed.

:  Prior to discussing the contents of the article, the students had
: only a vague and very incomplete understanding of Qi and that from a
: quasi-mystical point of view.  

That's fine. Why should students imagine they would know Qi just by hearing
about it?

: Most of the teaching in this area is
: badly deficient ( Qi deficiency?!) What words, concepts and
: metaphors would you use to explain what is known as Qi? 

I believe in the tactile/mystical approach. Odd phenomena that can be
observed in the right frame of Archaic mind, instead of in the modern frame
of mind.
  
: Can you also shed some light on this "inherently MYSTICAL nature of
: human existence".  "Mystical" is not a universally understood term. 
: What is your experience? 

I am a Daoist. It is abundantly clear to me that life is a deep mystery that
cannot be explained, understood, or described in language. Qi, in my book, is
part of that mystery. I see no particular need to state a description of Qi.
In any case, it is what linguists call 'polysemous.' It has multiple
meanings, and has a great versatility, like most of Chinese. Narrowing Qi
down to 'energy' seems like an incredible waste to me.
  
: Paul Iannone writes further:   
: "What stands behind the world of form is Dao, and Dao has no Qi." 
:  
: The above is a categorical statement which cannot be validated.  

It can very definitely be validated! But not, perhaps, so you could publish
the results in a journal or the newspaper. Healing is not a validatable
process, for the most part.

Maybe it's not right to say that Dao has no Qi. My original statement on this
was meant to state that Dao is not dependent on Qi as a Primal Substrate. If
Dao has a Qi, it is perhaps only 'the smell of a smell.'

: Is
: its source some Taoist text or your own experience?  

Experience, but also this is recognizably the tenet of Daoism, which
functions as the proximal root of East-Asian Traditional Healing (as it and
Daoism arose from the mystical speculations and experiences of Wu and Yi
sorcerors or mystics). [I don't mean to narrow down the profound mystery of
the development of this art, which I consider to a significant degree
Spirit-born ("genius" is our closest cognate).]

: If it is your
: own experience then perhaps you can explain your point of view.  My
: understanding of Dao or Tao is that it is the way of things, how
: things are, whether seen or unseen. Tao does not stand behind the
: world of form (Xing or Jing). 

Jing? Xing is correct (meaning something like 'shape'). Jing most commonly is
the transliteration of the character for 'Essence.' 

[One side note: Jing is commonly also linked with our word 'sperm' (modern
Chinese usually use Jing ye, or Jing 'juice'), which is of course sexist.
Women also have Jing, but English has no name for female sperm, or for the
substance that produces ova in a woman, so the concept is skewed by
English-only practitioners. ETH does seem to have a word for female sperm,
namely 'Tian Gui,' or 'Celestial Northern-Water' (Gui is the Tenth Stem,
referring to the North and to Water). Never knowing of 'seed' and 'egg' in
man, the early ETH philosophers focussed on the Creative Force of Jing. 'Tian
Gui,' we can see, is certainly NOT menstruation per se.]

Dao is much more than some way of 'things.' It is beyond thingness. I have
promised not to diverge into discussing Dao, so I won't here, but it is
indeed a 'missing link' in the worldview of practitioners of TCM, one of the
most obvious bases for my preference of the term 'East-Asian Traditional
Healing' for the greater tradition of which TCM is a gleaning.
  
: I am pleased that you understood the essence of my article to be the
: use of systems theory to better understand the
: body/mind/spirit/etc./etc..  The points you have raised are good
: ones which should be explored rather than leaving it as Mysticism. 

Mysticism is where most of this will remain after convenience and deficient
linguistic similarities have swept away the rest.
  
: I look forward to your response. 
:  
: Pankaj Seth, N.D. 


P_Iannone@lamg.com


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Sender: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: music@erich.triumf.ca
Subject: RE: Laser conversation
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: "FRED W. BACH , TRIUMF Operations" <music@erich.triumf.ca>
content-length: 1326
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Resent-Message-ID: <m0rpfnu-0001s2C@kickme.cts.com>
>Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:00:25 -1000
>Message-ID: <199503170600.UAA03225@hula.maui.net>
>Resent-Date: Fri Mar 17 08:38:29 1995
>Resent-From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman R. Kraft)
>To: Multiple Recipients of List OrMed (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
>Subject: Laser conversation
>From: rasa@maui.net (Romel Cordeiro)
>
>I am interested in exchange some words with someone,that is current using a
>Low LEVEL lASER in clinic.Please write, if you want to exchange some ideas
>in the field of laser.
>Please write .
>Thanks
>Romel
>
>
>
  Dear Romel,

   I had been getting the laser treatment for soft-tissue injury.  It 
   seems to be effective at relieving pain, although it is NOT
   instantaneous.

   Biologically, how does it work?

 Cheers,
 
 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        | Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca
 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    | Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 6327/7333
 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            | FAX:    604-222-1074
 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3
  Damien says " If you don't STAND for SOMETHING, you'll FALL for ANYTHING "
 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.


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Subject: Re: Qi and Tao
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From: P_Iannone@lamg.com
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On 3/16/95 at 7:38 AM, Pankaj Seth, N.D. wrote:

: This course is an in depth study of the classic treatise on Taoist Yoga,
: The Secret of the Golden Flower.  In this course we will explore the
: Taoist world view including its understanding of body/mind.  

And you'll be using what as your source material? Hopefully not the awful
Wilhelm translation. Even the unavoidable Cleary translation is more Chan
than Daoist. And are you taking into account that this text is 2,000 years
younger than the Tao De Jing (off the top of my head, but I think that's
about right--it was a Qing dynasty writing, I believe, derived from Song
teachings)?



P_Iannone@lamg.com


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@www.cts.com  Sat Mar 18 14:04:26 1995
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Cc: 
Subject: Re: Re: Blood at Acupuncture points
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From: rnc@inforamp.net (Pankaj Seth)
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>[ Virtually *every* TCM text discusses bleeding points for therapeutic 
>effect. This has been, and is, a part of Chinese medicine for quite  
>some time. The technique involved, however, is quite different than 
>old Western ideas of bleeding. Leeches and other European bleeding 
>techniques were used to remove relatively large quanities of blood  
>on the theory that the patient was suffering from an oversupply. 
  
>BTW, leeches are back in Western medicine. 
> 
>Norm (OrMed Moderator) ] 
> 
 
Speaking of leeches, I have seen the use of leeches near sites of psoriasis
with excellent results (great reduction of psoriasis).  When I was visiting
Gujarat Ayurved University in India an Ayurvedic Doctor was conducting a
clinical trial.  The before and after photos were very impressive.  It is
my understanding that the use of leeches is originally Ayurvedic but like
much of Ayurveda was brought to Europe several hundred years ago.  I'll
post separately a brief on this history. 
 
Pankaj Seth, N.D. 
 


From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Apr  2 11:13:38 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: ADMIN: New FAQ available
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From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
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There is a new version of the FAQ available. It has been
updated considerably, and has several new sections. You
can get the most current version in one of three ways:

1. Send a message to listserv@bkhouse.cts.com, containing
   the single line "FAQ OrMed" and the FAQ will be 
   returned to you via email.

2. FTP to ftp.cts.com, retrieve the file OrMed.FAQ from
   the directory /pub/nkraft/. The file is in ASCII
   format, with line-feeds. You may need to translate the
   end-of-line characters to read it. Numerous programs
   will do this for you. The file OrMed.FAQ.Z is compressed
   with the standard Unix utility compress.

3. Point your World Wide Web reader at 
   ftp://ftp.cts.com/pub/nkraft/ormed.html and choose the
   "Retrieve FAQ" option. 

I encourage everyone to get and keep a current copy of the
OrMed FAQ around.  There is a lot more to this mailing list
than meets the eye, and the FAQ is the only place to make
these discoveries.

Norm. (OrMed Moderator)


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From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com  Sun Apr  2 13:02:28 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: ADMIN: Updated Posting Guidelines
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From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
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It occurs to me that I have updated the Posting Guidelines several times 
since the inception of the list, and I don't know who has which version. 
Of course, you all have the most current FAQ, which contains them, don't 
you?

Well, in case you don't, here are the current Posting and Moderation 
Guidlines. Please read them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

POSTING GUIDELINES:

1. Try to keep in mind that your posts to the list go out to many people, 
   located around the world. Many of our subscribers pay for their email 
   services, and international email is, in general, an expensive 
   enterprise for someone along the line, even if not for the end user. 
   If your posting is of a personal nature, or is part of a discussion 
   with just one or two list members, use private email to continue the 
   dialog. Always be aware that what you post to the list should be of 
   interest to the majority of list members.

2. Stay on topic! This list is for the discussion of Oriental Medicine.

3. Please try to be polite in both your posts and your responses. Flaming 
   will not be tolerated and can get a member removed from the list in a 
   hurry. It has no place in a forum such as this one.

4. If you choose to reply to a list message, be sure to trim quoted text 
   as much as possible. Again, this is a matter of courtesy as both members 
   who pay for mail by the character and those who read it over slow modem 
   connections do not appreciate 100 lines of quoted text for a three line 
   reply. (Those of us reading it over fast connections don't appreciate 
   it much, either.) 

   Also, be sure to make proper attributions for quoted text. If you are 
   responding to a discussion, your message should clearly show the 
   author(s) of the quoted portions.

5. Do not use this list for commercial purposes. Messages advertising or 
   selling products or services from those with a commercial interest in 
   them will be rejected. Period. I don't care what the rest of the net is 
   doing. Pointing out that a new book or product is available is fine. 
   Stating where to get more information is fine. Reviews of the a book, 
   product or service is fine. Selling it to us is not.
   

Finally, keep in mind that this list is moderated. This means that all 
postings must be approved by a moderator (me) before they are distributed 
to the list at large. I don't generally get involved in a heavy-handed way, 
but those who consistently violate the basic rule of "be considerate" may 
receive warnings from me, or even be removed from the list. 

I also reserve the right to reject any posting which does not meet the 
Posting Guidelines as stated here. Such a rejection will almost always result
in a message to the sender stating the action and the reason for doing so.
This happens very seldom. Since the inception of the list, I have rejected
less than 4% of the posts. Messages most likely to be rejected seem to break 
down into categories:

1. Flames, impolite or ad hominem posts.

2. Posts which are primarily an attack of a group without showing any real 
   understanding of the subject being attack. This is to say that if your
   mission is to "debunk" Oriental Medicine, you had darn well better be
   very knowledgable about Oriental Medicine (and polite). 

3. Redundant posts. If I get a lot of responses to a post, essentially 
   saying the same thing, I may post just only a representative sample of 
   them. Or, if list traffic is slow, I'll post them all. My decision in 
   these cases is primarily volume-dependent.

4. "Recently argued to death posts." Certain types of arguments, often quite 
   heated, seem to show up again and again in various Internet newsgroups 
   and mailing lists. I reserve the right to hold these discussions down to 
   three or four times per year.

5. Posts to a closed topic.  Sometimes, a topic has clearly run its course,
   and become essentially a continuous restatement of earlier ideas.  Also,
   topics will sometimes start out fine, then veer off into off-topic
   discussions, or get really nasty. In such cases, I will sometimes 
   declare a topic closed, and reject all subsequent posts to that topic.

6. Posts which are irrelevant to Oriental Medicine (off-topic).

7. Postings that do not make sense. Please write in complete sentences, and 
   make appropriate quotations of material that you are responding to. Often, 
   I mail these posts back with suggestions for fixing them.

8. Copyrighted postings. As a matter of policy, I do not accept postings 
   with copyright notices. There is a tendency among some Internet users 
   to place a copyright notice at the bottom of everything they write. 
   These notices have a wide variety of restrictions regarding use and 
   redistribution. Often it is not at all clear what rights are or are not 
   offered. It's a mess, and I can't afford to get legal opinions about 
   each copyrighted post, so I generally reject them. If it is important 
   to you to copyright some or all of your post, let me know and I'll work 
   with you on it. You might also want to read the section in the FAQ 
   about the Article Archive, which deals with copyrighted material 
   differently.

I may, once in a while, edit postings. Such changes are not routine, and are 
not intended to change the sense or flavor of a particular post. These fall, 
generally, into three areas:

1. If your post contains large portions of another, earlier post, I may 
   abbreviate the quoted material, or replace it with a summary. I may also 
   add additional background material on the subject matter to help further 
   clarify the discussion. On the other hand, this sort of editing is time 
   consuming, and I don't always have time for it. I'm just as likely to 
   send it back ask you to do these things.

2. Once in a while, when I have more time on my hands than usual, I will 
   correct obvious spelling and grammatical errors if the author's native 
   language is not English and such errors interfere with understanding 
   the post. 

3. I will sometimes add comments at the bottom of the post. Usually, I do 
   this when the response to the post if more or less obvious in an (often 
   futile) attempt to head off dozens of identical responses. I will also 
   sometimes give background material, passages from the FAQ, quotes from 
   major texts, ideas for further discussion and warnings about posts which
   are dangerously near to violating posting guidelines. I try to post 
   pieces which are purely my own opinions under my own name, and save the 
   moderator's comments for discussion moderation issues. All such comments 
   are contained in brackets ([...]), and are signed "Norm (OrMed Moderator)". 
   It would be helpful to other readers if I could reserve the bracket 
   characters for moderation comments and edits, so that they always stand 
   out for what they are. Please think about this before using them in your 
   own posts.
     
I do not otherwise modify posts. I never make changes to the sense, meaning, or 
feel of any post. I never remove parts of  your post (only quoted material, see 
above). 

Norm. (OrMed Moderator)


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