Subject: Re: comfrey

From: [email-masked] (Mark D. Gold)
Date: 23 Dec 94 10:25:25 -0500

>From: [email-masked] (Camilla Cracchiolo)
>Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs
>Subject: Re: comfrey
>Date: 23 Dec 1994 09:56:17 GMT
>
>                        HOW MUCH COMFREY IS SAFE?
> 
>                   Copyright 1994 by Jay D Mann
>             Feel free to quote this but with acknowledgment

Well, I guess the nonsense written by Mr. Mann is still making its 
way around the Net.  We already debated this subject, but my response 
was basically:

**********************************************************************

1.  Even though the article is entitled "How Much Comfrey Is Safe?", 
    you are still trying to link comfrey toxicity (or lack thereof)
    with other _known_ toxic plant species.  This is a typical herb-
    bashing technique.  "Substance A is dangerous.  Substance B has 
    similarities to Substance A, therefore Substance B must be toxic."
    This same faulty logic can be used against both the use of herbs 
    _and_ the use of pharmaceuticals.  So, your discussion of Senecio
    and Heiotropium might be considered a scare tactic.

2.  Please tell me _exactly_ where Ridker says, "...and the N-oxides are 
    nearly as toxic as the free bases" (Ridker, P M, Gastroenterology 
    1985:88:1050-4) as I cannot find it.  [It turns out Ridker never said
    this.]  I cannot find where he even discusses the toxicity of 
    _N-oxide_ P.A.'s.  You managed to leave out the fact that another of
    your references (Bach, N,  The Amer J Medicine 87:97-99) states that
    the P.A.'s in comfrey are regarded as less toxic than those in
    plants such as Senecio. 

3.  Comfrey has been estimated to be used by hundreds of thousands of
    people worldwide and yet you managed to find only a _few_ cases
    worldwide of links to toxicity.  In the majority of those cases,
    a ridiculously large amount of comfrey was taken for an extended 
    period of time (e.g., 10 cups of comfrey tea + handfuls of 
    comfrey pills daily for a year).  This is the bottom line.  If
    comfrey is so incredibly toxic, why aren't there thousands of 
    deaths (as there are with some types of pharmaceuticals)?

    You seem to be grossly overblowing the "problem" with comfrey.
    What happen to your statement:

        "as usual, the public worries about the trivia
         and forgets about the biggies."

    which you stated when defending the use of manmade pesticides on 
    SCI.MED recently?  You called it "scare tactics."  There seems to 
    be a double standard between 1) your arguments against organic farming
    and your arguments against comfrey, and 2) the absolute safety
    _perfection_ you require for herbs and the "devil may care" 
    attitude you _appear_ to project about many times greater dangers 
    with the use some pharmaceuticals.  [Take *one* particular antibiotic 
    in 1992, for example.  In three months, there were more than
    15 times as many documented serious reactions (including deaths)
    in the U.S. (for prescribed dosages) than *ever* recorded for
    comfrey throughout the world (including overdosages).]

On the other hand...

I support _testing_ of the _possible_ toxicity of comfrey in
humans who use it for extended periods (as even Ridker admits 
that he doesn't know if there are dangers).  I also support
listing known contraindications for herbs where they are purchased.
I DO support the safe use of herbs (and foods) and education 
about how herbs can be used medicinally (usually as part of a
holistic healing program that often includes a natural foods 
diet, exercise, relaxation techniques, etc.).  This way, the 80% of 
the world that uses natural healing techniques such as herbs as their 
primary health care modality (according to World Health Organization
estimates), can continue to receive both safe and effective health 
care.

***********************************************************************

I would like to add that I agree with a previous poster that use of 
comfrey for short periods (except during pregnancies) is okay.  In 
addition, PA-free comfrey extract *is* available in the U.S. (from 
Herb Pharm), so anyone wanting to use comfrey for extended periods 
of time can obtain this extract.

Regards,
                             - Mark
                         [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 21:34:28 GMT

Mark,

Thanks for your impassioned reply to Mann's posting!

You mention pyrrolizidine-alkaloid free comfrey tincture.

What a wonderful solution to a tricky problem.

How do I get it?

Rick