Subject: Re: Echinacea harmful?

From: [email-masked] (Camilla Cracchiolo)
Date: 23 Dec 1994 22:49:02 GMT

Phil Holmes ([email-masked]) wrote:
: I have heard that taking Echinacea for long periods of time can weaken
: the immune system. Does anyone know this for a fact?

I've heard that the effects can wear off, but I didn't find anything on 
Medline addressing this when I did a search.  Echinacea does increase the 
activity of macrophages and certain immune activating chemicals called 
cytokines. The cytokines in question may be responsible for the fatigue 
seen in chronic fatigue syndrome, and there are anecdotal reports of 
people with CFS becoming worse on it.  I also have some questions about 
whether people with HIV should use it, because it's the macrophages that 
spread HIV to the T-cells, but I haven't found any studies on this so 
it's merely my suspicion.  It seems reasonable that the immune system 
would compensate for the increased stimulation of echinacea over time; 
most sources say to take it no longer than 6 weeks.

I haven't found any adverse effects in the literature other than on folks 
with CFS.  Varro Tyler suggests that it's probably effective in 
preventing or shorting colds and sore throats by stimulating immune 
effects in the mouth and throat.  In this case, he says to take the 
extract so it can have local effects in the mouth rather than capsules.  
Everything seems to indicate that basically healthy people who use it for 
a short term problem like warding off the flu don't have problems from it.

Attached is my standard herbal med warning sheet.  Skip it if you've seen 
it already.  (I post it a lot).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
           Camilla Cracchiolo, RN   [email-masked]

        Shrine of the Cybernetic Madonna BBS  213-766-1356
        "The Board that Hates Rush Limbaugh With A Passion"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

              CAUTIONS ABOUT HERBAL MEDICINE:

There is nothing about herbs that automatically makes them
non-toxic just because they are natural.  Ever hear of
deadly nightshade or poisonous mushrooms?  They are drugs,
like other drugs, and should be approached with the same caution.

This means, for example, that pregnant women should be as 
careful about medicinal herbs as they are about conventional
medicines.  Some medicinal herbs are clearly linked to birth defects.
People on certain medications, like anti-coagulants
or psychiatric drugs, can have serious problems from
interactions between the herb and the medicine they're taking.
In the US, herbs do not contain information about side effects,
dangers and contraindications on the label (which I think they
should).  Many physicians are not well informed
about herbs, and so you cannot always rely on your doctor to
know about potential problems. And if you have or suspect you
have a serious illness, it is very important to be under
a doctor's care.  Self diagnosis is not always accurate and
self treatment doesn't always work.

For this reason, you should be very well read before trying
herbal medicines on your own, and you may wish to consult
a trained herbalist.  Unfortunately, in the US anyone
can hang out a shingle and call themselves an herbalist. Lots
of these people have no idea what they're doing.  I have found
practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine to be the best
trained.  I don't accept the model that traditional Chinese
practitioners use to explain the effects of herbs (yin/yang,
hot/cold, damp/dry, etc.).  I also have problems with the
amount of unsupported anecdotal info mixed in with scientific 
studies. But traditional Chinese doctors treat herbs with a lot of
respect and caution.  They are well up on the side effects
and counterindications.

Herbal medicines have several other main problems.  One of the
big ones is that the pharmacologically active ingredient may occur
in conjuction with other toxic compounds.  Examples of toxic
compounds often found in herbs include pyrrolizadine alkaloids
(very toxic to the liver and cause both benign and malignant
liver tumors); coumarins (which decrease the ability of the
blood to clot); and allergens.  The latter can be quite important
to people who are allergic to ragweed; some herbs  in the
ragweed family (chamomile and yarrow are examples) can cause
severe allergic reactions in these folks.)  Most companies do
not list the source of their herbs or how they were grown.  Pesticide
contamination is a possibility.

Another big problem is that the amount of pharmacologically
active ingredient available varies widely from
plant to plant, so accurately regulating dosage is difficult.
Because of this, and the toxic compounds mentioned above, it
is often better to rely on an extracted and standardized
compound (conventional drugs) when possible.  However, some
of the active ingredients of herbs cannot be found in this
form.  

Yet another problem is with herb labelling.  Very few herbal
medicines marketed in the US have both the Latin name of the
herb and an expiration date marked on the bottle.  Often,
this is deliberate: fraud is rampant among companies marketing
herbs.  One brand that does have good labelling is Nature's Way.
Alternatively, if you live in a city with a large Chinese, Japanese
or Korean population, you can try the herb sellers in that
district.  I've personally found the herb sellers in Chinatown
here in L.A. to be very honest and knowledgable (although language
is often a problem, alas.  Gotta learn to speak Chinese one of
these days.)  :)

And finally, very few herb books contain dosage information.
I have *a lot* of problems with Michael Tierra's herb books.  I
don't accept the medical models he endorses (traditional Chinese
medicine and Ayurveda).  I also don't like the fact that Tierra
doesn't distinguish between scientifically validated information
and anecdotes.  But Tierra's books are among the very few herbal
medicine books that discuss dosage.  Just making up a weak tea
is usually not enough to get a pharmacologically effective dose.
Tierra is the author of _The Way Of Herbs_ and _Planetary Herbology_.

Warning: Tierra's books should be used as supplemental sources
only and never as your primary source of information on herbs.  I
have spotted several places where he has left out important information
on toxicity.

One other thing:

I strongly recommend _The Honest Herbal_ by Varro Tyler to anyone
who is considering or using herbal medicines.  It is the one herb
book that I have ever found that relies solely on scientific studies
instead of anecdotes *and* which provides references.  Tyler himself
has impressive credentials, being a tenured professor of pharmacognosy
(the branch of pharmacy that deals with herbal medicine) in the
school of pharmacy at Purdue University.  The ISBN # is 1-56024-287-6
and it is published by the Haworth Press, 10 Alice Street, Binghamton
NY 13904-1580.  It is in print, costs about $20 and I got mine through
a regular bookstore which special ordered it for me.

Another book which I have been told contains scientific references,
but which I have not read myself, is the _Encyclopedia of Natural
Medicine_ by Michael Murray and Joseph Pizzorno.  It's available
>from  Prima Publishing, P.O. Box 1260MP, Rocklin, California 95677.
The phone # is (916) 786-0426 and the price is $18.95.

A couple of other recommendations were sent to me by Jay Mann in New
Zealand:

"CRC Handbook of Medicinal Herbs",written by James A Duke, published 1985.
Dr Duke was Chief of Medicinal Plant Resources Lab, USDA for 25 years.  The
book covers 365 medicinal plants, one for every day of the year. The "CRC"
label on the cover ensures that the book will be thorough and exceedingly
expensive to buy.  There are nearly 700 largesize pages.

A nice feature is having a sketch of each plant.  At the back is a 7-page
summary of each herb, toxicity score, scientific and common names, and
estimated market price.  The toxicity scores are given in triplets: Duke's
own, Rose's, and Tyler's, (I don't know Rose's.)  He admits that his
scoring is ad hoc, all based on comparison with a cup of coffee!  3=safer
than coffee and wouldn't hesitate to drink 3 cups a day.  (He wouldn't
drink anything more than 3x /day.)  2=same as coffee, 2 cups.  1=more
dangerous, would accept 1 cup a day containing 10 g of steeped herb. 
0=very dangerous, wouldn't drink anything.   He considers himself less
conservative than Tyler, more conservative than Rose.  The book, b the way,
also has proper scientific citations."

According to Jay, this book is quite expensive, but may be available
in some university libraries.

and

"Herbal Remedies: Harmful and beneficial effects", by S Talalaj
& A S Czechowicz.   Publisher is
             Hill of Content Publishing Pty Ltd
             86 Bourke Street
             Melbourne 3000
             AUSTRALIA

I don't have a fax number for them, nor a price, but from memory it cost
only something like $A20 in paperback form.  They were happy to accept a
VISA-card number.

---

From: [email-masked] (Phil Holmes)
Date: 23 Dec 1994 17:59:00 GMT

I have heard that taking Echinacea for long periods of time can weaken
the immune system. Does anyone know this for a fact?

---

From: DOUG BLYTHE <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 DEC 94 22:18:35 -0500

my understanding is that Echinacea is best used at intervals.
Two weeks on  and then two weeks off.  It will lose its immune
system strengtheing benefits with continual use (hence, the
reason for taking it at intervals).    But I have not heard of
it actually doing harm to the immune system.
 
doug

---

From: [email-masked] (Brad Scarlett)
Date: 29 Dec 1994 08:22:06 GMT

>the immune system. Does anyone know this for a fact?

My ND mentioned the other day, when I mentioned that I was taking Echinacea
in capsule form, that the immune system develops a sort of resistance to it's effects
after a period of time.  Makes sense to me....

Brad.

---

From: [email-masked] (Rimbaud234)
Date: 31 Dec 1994 21:47:42 -0500

I saw a report on television with a PhD nutritionist.  She said that the
immune boosting effects can wear down over time.  However, if you go 4
days on, 4 days off, 20-40 drops per day, the immune boosting effects
don't peak and level  but continue upward.  She also said use drops which
are the best.

---

From: [email-masked] (Camilla Cracchiolo)
Date: 1 Jan 1995 03:07:20 GMT

I think people with chronic fatigue syndrome shouldn't use it, and people 
with HIV should be very cautious.  Not all immune boosting is good: in
the case of CFS, echinacea increases levels of certain cytokines that
may worsen symptoms of fatigue and attention problems.  In the case of HIV,
increased macrophage activity may hasten the spread of HIV to the CD4
cells.

>From  what I can tell, it may have some benefits in people in good health
who are fighting off colds and flu; however, I haven't been able to find
any human studies: only animals and in-the -test-tube type immune tests.

Attaches is standard herb caution sheet.

This means, for example, that pregnant women should be as 
careful about medicinal herbs as they are about conventional
medicines.  Some medicinal herbs are clearly linked to birth 
defects. People on certain medications, like anti-coagulants or 
psychiatric drugs, can have serious problems from interactions 
between the herb and the medicine they're taking. In the US, herb 
labels do not list information about side effects, dangers and 
contraindications on the label (which I think they should).  Many 
physicians are not well informed about herbs, and so you cannot 
always rely on your doctor to know about potential problems. And 
if you have or suspect you have a serious illness, it is very 
important to be under a doctor's care.  Self diagnosis is not always 
accurate and self treatment doesn't always work.

I believe it is vital for any person who wishes to try herbs to
be very well read before attempting them. I strongly recommend _The 
Honest Herbal_ by Varro Tyler to anyone who is considering or using 
herbal medicines.  It is the one herb book that I have ever found that 
relies solely on scientific studies instead of anecdotes *and* which 
provides references.  Tyler himself has impressive credentials, being a 
tenured professor of pharmacognosy (the branch of pharmacy that deals 
with herbal medicine) in the school of pharmacy at Purdue University.  
The ISBN # is 1-56024-287-6 and it is published by the Haworth Press, 10 
Alice Street, Binghamton NY 13904-1580.  It is in print, costs about $20 
and I got mine through a regular bookstore which special ordered it for me.

I personally regard herbal medicine as useful primarily in two 
situations: 

1) when a basically healthy person uses an herbal compound 
for a short, self limiting condition such as a cold or the 
flu, where over the counter remedies would normally be 
appropriate.

and 

2) in the case of serious illness, where no effective standard 
treatment exists and where there is some evidence from the 
scientific literature that a particular herbal compound may help.  
An example of this would be the use of silymarin (an extract from 
milk thistle) in the treatment of chronic viral hepatitis.  In this
kind of situation, I regard it as extremely important that the
person be under the close supervision of a physician well versed
in the disease in question and who has reviewed the available studies 
on the herb to be used. 

Herbal medicine has some very big problems.  The most important is 
probably that herbs often have not been subjected to thorough
testing.  Even when an herb has many studies published about it, 
almost always the studies are on animals; human studies are quite 
unusual.  Studies to determine whether the compound can cause birth
defects are vanishingly rare, as are studies to determine whether
the compound can cause cancer.  Relying on traditional folklore is
not much help; very obvious or dramatic adverse effects may be 
caught this way, but it doesn't tell us much about either long
term effects or problems caused in only a small percentage of people.

Another major problem is that the amount of pharmacologically
active ingredient available varies widely from plant to plant, so 
accurately regulating dosage is difficult. The pharmacologically active 
ingredient may also occur in conjuction with other toxic compounds.  
Examples of toxic agents often found in herbs include pyrrolizadine 
alkaloids (very toxic to the liver and cause both benign and malignant
liver tumors); coumarins (which decrease the ability of the
blood to clot); and allergens.  The latter can be quite important
to people who are allergic to ragweed; some herbs  in the
ragweed family (chamomile and yarrow are examples) can cause
severe allergic reactions in these folks.)  Most companies do
not list the source of their herbs or how they were grown.  Pesticide
contamination is a possibility and heavy metal contamination of some
herbs has been reported in the scientific literature.

Because of the problems mentioned above, I believe it is often better
to rely on an extracted and standardized compound (conventional drugs) 
when possible.  However, some of the active ingredients of herbs cannot 
be found in this form. 

If you decide, after your research, to try herbal medicines,
you may wish to consult a trained herbalist.  Unfortunately, in 
the US anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves an 
herbalist. Lots of these people have no idea what they're doing.  
I have found practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine to be 
the best trained.  I don't accept the model that traditional Chinese
practitioners use to explain the effects of herbs (yin/yang,
hot/cold, damp/dry, etc.).  I also have problems with the
amount of unsupported anecdotal info mixed in with scientific 
studies. But traditional Chinese doctors treat herbs with a lot of
respect and caution.  They are well up on the side effects
and counterindications.

and folklore.  But Tierra's books are among the very few herbal

Other references which may be of value:

A book which I have been told contains scientific references,
but which I have not read myself, is the _Encyclopedia of Natural
Medicine_ by Michael Murray and Joseph Pizzorno.  It's available

and

--

---

From: [email-masked] (JOHN AMSLER)
Date: 11 Jan 1995 05:04:09 GMT

Camilla Cracchiolo ([email-masked]) wrote:

[snip]

: No one is sure what the active ingredient in echinacea is, but it appears 
: to be a mild immune stimulant.  

According to Daniel B. Mowrey, Ph.D., in his book "Next Generation Herbal
Medicine" (Keats Publishing, Inc. 27 Pine St (Box 876), New Canaan, CT 
06840; ISBN 0-87983-532-X), the active ingredients are glycosides and 
polysaccharides. (p. 45) 

[snip]

: BTW, I recently ran across an interesting abstract on echinacea that 
: suggests that it doesn't lose its activity after several weeks and that 
: the frequent recommendations to take breaks from it were based on a 
: misreading of a German research paper.  I'll see if I can dig it up and 
: post it here.

Good!  That's very interesting.  I've read in more than one magazine 
about the "... take it for three or four days and then take a 'break' for 
three or four days ..." recommendation.

- John J. Amsler
  Atari:  Motorola Inside!
          ========
          (MIDI Inside, Too)

---

From: "K. Hanson" <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Jan 1995 04:16:43 GMT

[email-masked] (Katherine O Withycombe) wrote:
>
> Someone posted earlier in the Liver thread about dandelion helping liver 
> problems.  How does one prepare the dandelion? Seep the leaves into a tea?
> Eat a salad?  Also, how does one prepare the leaves?  I seem to remember
> something about soaking the leaves to leach out the bitterness?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Kathy Withycombe - Standard Disclaimers Apply
> 

The few times I've ate dandelions, you pick the first leaves of 
the year otherwise they are very, very bitter.  also soak them
in two baths before you eat them.  Unless you like bitter, add
them with your other greens for a salad.  
  For 'greens,' again soak them.  Boil, rinse and serve. (with
either a bit of butter or a teaspoon of vinegar.  Again use only 
the most tender leaves. 
                            Kid Kaos

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Jan 1995 09:53:39 GMT

> > Someone posted earlier in the Liver thread about dandelion helping
   >liver > problems.  How does one prepare the dandelion? Seep the leaves
   >into a tea? > Eat a salad?  Also, how does one prepare the leaves?  I
   >seem to remember > something about soaking the leaves to leach out the
   >bitterness? >

Eating the leaves is fine.  The root can also be made into a tea.

Rainbow V 1.11 for Delphi - Registered

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Jan 1995 11:10:48 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Jones)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 03:03:58 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Katherine O Withycombe) writes:
>
>I have deduced WHY Echinacea is harmful (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>
>Initially, I bought a box of Traditional Medicinals allergy (or something) 
>tea - on the box it tells me that ephedrine comes from the Echinacea plant
>(they also gave some other name for it - forgive my ignorance).  Hmmm....
>

<<<<<<<< PORTION DELETED >>>>>>>>>>>

>Thanks for reading my longish missive!
>
>Kathy Withycombe - standard disclaimers apply.
>

Echinacea comes from the 'Purple Coneflower" plant.
Ephedra "Ma Huang" is something ENTIRELY different.

Echinacea does nothing to the heart rate that I am aware of.
At one time it was being used in Aids experiments because
it is an immune builder.