1996.01.12 /  Oz /  Re: nine year old with fusion theories
     
Originally-From: Oz@upthorpe.demon.co.uk (Oz)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: nine year old with fusion theories
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 21:04:42 GMT

phil@eurocontrol.fr (Phil Gibbs) wrote:

>On the other hand, if you were to tell this kid that his ideas
>are worthless and that he should study other peoples ideas
>for 15 years before he stands any chance of producing a 
>useful original thought, then I doubt he will produce
>anything. 

Dunno. Quite a few posters here have probably done just
that. I am not so sure that studying other peoples ideas
means that you can't have an original thought, and even just
properly grasping some concepts gives a nice 'aha!' that's
most pleasant. Incidentally I never said that the kid's
ideas were worthless at any time. Since you bring it up
though,one ought to face the fact that it is quite likely
that they are naive. I am not sure that this is a really
good place to expose them unless you have quite a tough ego,
and that usually comes with age.

>It is better to encourage him to think for himself and then
>compare his ideas with those of others.

Certainly. 

>Give any child the attention of a good teacher and you can
>succeed in making him/her a top expert in any field. But
>creativity and originality can not be tought so surely. 
>The best we can do is encourage it when we see it.

Absolutely, and there are many here who would do just that
to the best of their ability. Trouble is that there are many
who would not, and many who have beliefs that they hold with
a religious fervour which are regrettably downright wrong.


 ------------------------------
'Oz     "When I knew little, all was certain. The more I learnt,
        the less sure I was. Is this the uncertainty principle?"
cudkeys:
cuddy12 cudenOz cudlnOz cudmo1 cudqt1 cudszM cudyr1996 
------------------------------
1996.01.12 / Arnie Frisch /  Re: Magnum 350 Run
     
Originally-From: arnief@wu.cse.tek.com (Arnie Frisch)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Magnum 350 Run
Date: 12 Jan 1996 23:50:49 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <21cenlogic-1201961358060001@austin-1-8.i-link.net>
21cenlogic@i-link.net (Mitchell Jones) writes:
>*****************
>Magnum 350 Run #2

>In this run, I added a 1500 watt "Gran Pappy" deep fryer to the apparatus.
>(They sell it at Wal-Mart.) I ran 10 feet of 5/8ths poly tubing from the
>outlet fitting at the top of the Magnum 350 reservoir into the Gran Pappy,
>and another 10 feet to carry the return flow back to the inlet fitting of
>the reservoir. To prevent heat loss from the walls of the Gran Pappy, I









.......
......
.....
...
..

>............... Here are the results:

>Starting air temp: 56 degrees F
>Starting water temp: 92 degrees F
>Ending water temp: 120 degrees F
>Elapsed time: 5 minutes
>Flow rate: roughly 10 liters/min
>Water volume: 4 liters

>Comments:

>Here, again, I turned off the apparatus while the temperature was
>continuing to rise rapidly. This time, however, there was a specific
>reason for turning it off. My thermometer was inside the pump reservoir,
>and I was monitoring its rise through the transparent plastic walls. When
>it reached 120, the reading was going off the top of the scale, and I knew
>that if it went much further, the thermometer would explode. Also, there
>was the possibility that heat sensitive glue had been used in the impeller
>somewhere, and I didn't want to ruin my pump.


>My conclusion, based on the above, is straightforward: the Power Gen demo
>is, as I said yesterday, an abortion. Something is seriously wrong
>somewhere. Either they used plastic tubing with paper thin walls (bloody
>unlikely), or else the inlet thermocouple reading which Jed did not verify
>was, as I suspected, giving a false reading.







I would like to hear just how Mr. Rothwell is going to talk his way out
of this one - though I'm quite sure that he will have some BOVINE MANURE
SCIENCE that will explain it all away.


Arnold Frisch
Tektronix Laboratories
 -------------------------------------------------------
Any ideas or opinions expressed here do not necessarily
reflect the ideas or opinions of my employer.
 -------------------------------------------------------



PS to Mitch Jones:  Good Work!
cudkeys:
cuddy12 cudenarnief cudfnArnie cudlnFrisch cudmo1 cudqt1 cudszM cudyr1996 
------------------------------
1996.01.12 / Mitchell Jones /  Re: Magnum 350 Run
     
Originally-From: 21cenlogic@i-link.net (Mitchell Jones)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Magnum 350 Run
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:09:54 -0500
Organization: 21st Century Logic

*******************
Magnum 350 Run #4

This time, I took the lid off of the ice chest and positioned the box fan
above it, so that half of the air flow hit the Gran Pappy deep fryer, and
the other half hit the tubing and reservoir of the pump. The idea was to
see if evaporative cooling would prevent a runaway temperature rise. Since
the surface area of the Gran Pappy is *much* larger than that of the
reservoir, and since there was no lid at all on the Gran Pappy, whereas at
Power Gen there was a lid on the reservoir with a small hole drilled in
the top, and since at Power Gen the air flow was supplied by a tiny muffin
fan, this test is absolutely definitive: if the temperature runs away
under these conditions, it becomes *flatly certain*, in my view, that it
would have run away at Power Gen--*if* the Patterson Cell had been
supplying the 1344 watts that has been posted in this group. Here are the
results:

Starting air temp: 55 degrees F
Starting water temp: 60 degrees F
Ending air temp: 55 degrees F
Ending water temp: 120 degrees F
Elapsed time: 7 minutes
Flow rate: roughly 10 liters/min
Starting water volume: 3.3 liters
Ending water volume: roughly 3 liters (not counting a bit of spillage)

Comments: 

Once again, the apparatus was turned off to prevent the thermometer from
exploding and heat damage to the impeller. The temperature was continuing
to rise rapidly and was *not* being noticeably impeded by the air
circulation, as I expected. The reason: plastic has a low thermal
conductivity, and is not suited for use in cooling coils. Blowing air on
such coils does little good. My conclusion is that the Power Gen demo was
*not* producing 1344 watts, or a significant fraction thereof. Could this
conclusion be wrong? The only way I could imagine would be if it were to
turn out that the Gran Pappy deep fryer, in actuality, consumes more than
twice as much power as is claimed on the label. I made no attempt to test
its performance characteristics, since I consider the possibility that it
is that far out of spec to be absurd. If anyone wants to test it, you can
buy it at Wal-Mart. (I believe it cost $29.95, but I won't swear to it.)

Note: since evaporation was a possibility on this run, I did two
measurements of water volume. In the process, I discovered an error in my
measuring procedure. Thus the measurements of 4 liters on the earlier runs
may be a tad high. There is no way to know, since I can't go back in time
and measure those results over again. Fortunately, it doesn't matter to
the result. As far as I am concerned, the Power Gen demo is dead. May it
rest in piece. 

--Mitchell Jones

===========================================================
cudkeys:
cuddy12 cuden21cenlogic cudfnMitchell cudlnJones cudmo1 cudqt1 cudszM cudyr1996 
------------------------------
1996.01.13 / Ross Tessien /  Re: Incredibly ignorant statements parroted by Archimedes Plutonium
     
Originally-From: tessien@oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.physics.particle,soc.culture.british,alt.com
dy.british,sci.physics.fusion,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Incredibly ignorant statements parroted by Archimedes Plutonium
Date: 13 Jan 1996 01:29:44 GMT
Organization: Impulse Engineering, Inc.

In article <birdieDKyAyB.Lys@netcom.com>, birdie@netcom.com says...
>
>Ross Tessien (tessien@oro.net) wrote:
>: In article <4cn742$suo@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, 
>: Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu says...
>: >
>: > A perfect arena to
>: >observe this going on right now at this very moment, this "socialized
>: >physics or communistic physics" is the quest for the Higgs Particle.
>
>Um...and now back to our programme "Fools Rush Inn" Two mad scientists 
in 
>Lab coats settle down for a nice cuppa and some small talk...
>
>: This, and your comments above, irregardless of your intentions to 
right a 
>: wrong as I perceive your intent are careless.  And what is the result?
>
>: The result is that Pons and Fleischmann were ostrasized from the 
United 
>: States of America due to all of the ridicule.  
>
>One could, I suppose, get ostrasized from the Brit Comedy board as well
>for posting very long mad chest thumping messages about 
science/politics.
>
>: We sent our own researchers off to work for a consortium of Japanese 
>: corporations who are trying in earnest to develop this technology.  
They 
>: have expended well over 100 million dollars over the past several 
years. 
>:  Now do you think for a minute that they are not getting results that 
>: justify the expenditure?  Absolutely not.  
>
>I cannot argue against this, their lab coats as a result really are much 
>whiter and brighter. Last I looked in the Japanese Lab, one required 
>sunglasses. Now, that's results! One can just see where all the $$ went.
>
>: American publications are gun shy and will not publish these articles 
>: because of the prejiduce demonstrated above.
>
>Right, so they have been allotted to newsgroups such as British Comedy. 
 
>
>
>: Wake up America and get off your sleeping ignorant butts on this 
issue.  
>: I have designs but cannot even get Westinghouse or GE to take this 
issue 
>: seriously.  We are seeking private funding and due to all of the 
comments 
>: floating around like this one, investors are shy too.  
>
>Uh..oh..this is truly embarrassing....
>
>: Ross Tessien, pissed off engineer
>
>Well, obviously Ross, your in the right place...
>
>If you stick around you may hopefully acuire a sense of humour!
>
>Birdie
>-- 
>"A few more trips around the sun & my face will look like a fault map!" 
>                                                  
>                                                  - birdie@netcom.com

I have a great sense of humor when something is funny.  Apparently birdie 
doesn't want to respond below, so lets see if the cat can get her out of 
the tree.  Probably not because she obvioulsy has no knowledge of the 
subject with which to debate, but lets try any way.

Are you familiar with the paper, "Observation of Anomalous Emission of 
High Energy  (~1Mev) Charged Particles When 5 KeV Protons Impinge on 
Palladium and Titanium Foils"?  In it you can see for yourself the 
autoradiographs and decide if you think they took them to their 
local dentist to expose the film, deliberately forging this 1994 paper.  
If you didn't read the other post I made below to your compatriot in 
crime, I was wondering what chemical process might yield these high 
energy particles, and the beta decay.  Seemed to me that these were only 
possible if one caused a new isotope ( oops, that nuclear reaction thing) 
to form.  That team was from India.

Are you familiar with The paper "DEUTERON FUSION EXPERIMENT WITH TI AND 
PD FOILS IMPLANTED WITH DEUTERON BEAMS II"?  This is another Dec 1994 
paper in the Transactions on Fusion Technology.  Have you ever personally 
read any of the work on Cold Fusion that has taken place in the past 
three years?  Did you know that Oppenheimer found that deuterons were the 
most valuable isotopic species for creating radio isotopes way back in 
the thirties when he and Lawrence were first discovering how atoms 
worked?

Do you know anything about atomic physics that I am not waisting my time, 
or are you just parroting more ignorant information without any personal 
investigation regarding what you said above?  If indeed you do think you 
have investigated the topic, then you must know something that I don't.  
I was always taught that the production of helium, or the production of 
any radioisotopes or the production of 3 to 7 MeV particles from KeV 
level particles all pretty well proved that you made some sort of atomic 
reactions.

Since you have chosen to speak out above, one would think you know 
otherwise.  But then, as we all see, you simply lash out and then hide in 
the shadows.  Are you embarrassed about your comment and wish you hadn't 
made it since you obviously are another sheep hiding from reality.  If 
so, why not come out and appologize?

Well, enjoy the flock and hope there aren't too many fleas.

Ross Tessien




cudkeys:
cuddy13 cudentessien cudfnRoss cudlnTessien cudmo1 cudqt1 cudszL cudyr1996 
------------------------------
1996.01.12 / Mark Olson /  Re: Magnum 350 Run
     
Originally-From: molson@apollo.tricord.com (Mark Olson)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Magnum 350 Run
Date: 12 Jan 1996 21:00:48 -0600
Organization: Tricord Systems, Inc.

jedrothwell@delphi.com wrote:
: Mark Olson <molson@apollo.tricord.com> writes:
:  
: >The impeller in the pump still has the same amount of torque applied to it
: >whether the flow is throttled or not, so in the case of reducing the flow
: >to 1.2 l/m, there would be a *lot* of "slippage" at the impeller.  I would
: >expect there to be a lot of heating going on inside the pump in this case.
:  
: Ah, but would this "slippage" cause heat on the pump impeller side, or
: outside where the magnet and motor is, or on both sides? I don't know.
:  
: - Jed

   Doesn't matter - that was my point.  It would, IMHO, generate heat inside
the pump casing but would not cause frictional heat outside the pump or at
the choke point.  No matter where the heat wound up it wouldn't show up as
excess heat inside the cell or at another point where the flow was being
limited.


-- 

Mark Olson
Manager, Performance/Characterization Lab
Tricord Systems, Inc.
cudkeys:
cuddy12 cudenmolson cudfnMark cudlnOlson cudmo1 cudqt1 cudszM cudyr1996 
------------------------------
1996.01.12 / Bill Rowe /  Re: Magnum 350 Run
     
Originally-From: browe@netcom.com (Bill Rowe)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Magnum 350 Run
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:52:48 -0800
Organization: none apparent

In article <4d57am$2fo@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Martin Sevior <msevior> wrote:

>The 1300 watt mode was only in operation for 15 minutes. Apparently the
>nominal operating mode was less than 500 watts as reported for the second day's
>running. I suggest you spend your time looking to see if 500 Watts can be 
>dissapated by the system in a steady state fashion.

I thought I saw a post from Jed which said the 1300W mode was only in
operation for 8 minutes. Whether or not this is the case, I do think it
points to one of the problems here. There doesn't seem to be a very
accurate set of data describing the operation of the demo. The data that
has been reported seems to have come in pieces and omits items of
importance. For exampIe, the initial reports suggested the high power
(1300W) mode ran for about 2 hrs. Without an accurate data set it is very
hard to determine what really happened.
-- 
"Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain."
cudkeys:
cuddy12 cudenbrowe cudfnBill cudlnRowe cudmo1 cudqt1 cudszS cudyr1996 
------------------------------
processed by cud.pl ver. 0.5 Mon Jan 15 04:37:03 EST 1996
------------------------------
