Subject: Bug#3470: apache problems

From: Ian Jackson <[email-masked]>, Stephen Early <[email-masked]>, Owen Dunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 15:16 BST

Package: apache
Version: 1.0.5-1

1. apache's postinst should determine its guess for the webmaster's
address using /etc/mailname, rather than using the current host's
FQDN.

2. It asks about an `alternate' name for the server.  It's not an
alternative[1] name (that would be the server's `real' name) - it is
instead the server's `published' name.

3. It shouldn't try to be the only web server on the machine is there
is already one installed.

4. /var/web is an abomination.  Use /home/httpd-data instead - in
fact, check to see if the www user exists and use its home directory
if so.

(This bug was encountered during a test installation of 1.1 done by
the three of us.)

Ian.

[1] This bug has nothing to do with my (iwj's) dislike of the word
`alternate' when used to mean `alternative'.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:10:40 +0200 (MET DST)

> fact, check to see if the www user exists and use its home directory

There was some discussion on this subject on the list, and I recall that
/home/httpd-data seem to be a bad choice.  Some people mentioned that the 
fact that ftpd does make this mistaken a httpd shouldn't make the mistake
again.  I'm not deep enough into this to say what is right or wrong about
this.

"Unix: 30 definitions of regular expressions living under one roof"
                                                                D.E. Knuth
Erick Branderhorst  http://www.iaehv.nl/users/branderh/

---

From: Mark Shuttleworth <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 18:10:13 +0200 (SAT)

> again.  I'm not deep enough into this to say what is right or wrong about

I agree that /var/web is not great, but I must say that /home/httpd-data
is truly aweful.  Using a 'user' to kludge a magic piece of the filesystem
into something useful is *not* a good idea.

  1. Some people have big sites, but few users.  They make /home
     a separate partition, or make it available by NFS.  I *doubt*
     they want to export their web site.

  2. It is often a useful trick to have aa web user,  but the
     system admin should be able to create this at will,  not be
     stuck with what the maintainer says goes.  This is also
     why we have the DocumentRoot directive...

Now, my real belief is that FSSTND needs updating to accomodate
the needs of people who maintain large ftp sites and web sites.
Don't choke,  but I think /var/exported/web is the ideal place
for a web site,  and /var/exported/ftp for an ftp site, and
/ver/web/smb for your SAMBA public files....

/var because this stuff is variable.

Until FSSTND pointers clear this up,  or until Bruce Perens
requests an explicit change,  I'm not going to change the
status quo - but I must admit that it was silly to use
"httpd" instead of "apache" everywhere.

Regards,
Mark

--
Mark Shuttleworth
Thawte Consulting

---

From: Miquel van Smoorenburg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:32:47 +0200 (MET DST)

> again.  I'm not deep enough into this to say what is right or wrong about

One of the things is that /home is ment for *users*. On our systems, /home
is shared over NFS - I do not want our anonymous FTP archive there, or
the webpages. Many people have expressed similar concerns.

A standard location for www pages, ftp data etc. is badly needed. Each package
now chooses that for itself. But I think that it should be somewhere in /var.

Mike.
-- 
  Miquel van    | Cistron Internet Services   --    Alphen aan den Rijn.
  Smoorenburg,  | mailto:[email-masked]          http://www.cistron.nl/
[email-masked] | Tel: +31-172-419445 (Voice) 430979 (Fax) 442580 (Data)

---

From: "Peter Tobias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:51:01 +0200 (MET DST)

> again.  I'm not deep enough into this to say what is right or wrong about

The wu-ftpd package lets the user choose where he wants to place the home
directory for anonymous FTP. I won't call that a mistake.

Thanks,

Peter

-- 
 Peter Tobias                                EMail:
 Fachhochschule Ostfriesland                 [email-masked]
 Fachbereich Elektrotechnik und Informatik   [email-masked]
 Constantiaplatz 4, 26723 Emden, Germany     [email-masked]

---

From: Lars Wirzenius <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 22:21:08 +0300

[ NB: I read the list.  Don't CC replies to me.  I pay for my PPP.  Thanks ]

> again.  I'm not deep enough into this to say what is right or wrong about

I think this should be configurable.  The postinst should ask for the
location, and store it somewhere suitable.  Any package that wants to
install web pages in that directory should also ask for the location,
or look it up from the same location.

/home/httpd-data could be given as the default, but asking allows the
admin to easily put things where he wants them to be.

The location might be /etc/default/webspace:

	#
	# /etc/default/webspace
	#
	# This file defines the default location for where web pages
	# and cgi-bin programs on this system are located.
	#
	# WEBSPACE_ROOT
	#	The toplevel directory where all public, non-user
	#	web pages are stored.  Any packages that wish to
	#	install public web pages should do it below this
	#	directory.
	#
	# WEBSPACE_CGIBIN
	#	The directory where cgi-bin programs that are shared
	#	between different http servers are stored.
	#
	
	WEBSPACE_ROOT="/home/httpd-data"
	WEBSPACE_CGIBIN="/usr/lib/httpd-shared/cgi-bin"

Or words to that effect.  I'm not actually familiar with how httpd
configuration works, but I'm sure something similar could be done.

I think at least some of this stuff is shareable between different
httpds, and the packages installing web pages will also want it.
Putting it into /etc/default should make things easier to share.

---

From: Lars Wirzenius <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 06:26:14 +0300

Miquel van Smoorenburg:
> A standard location for www pages, ftp data etc. is badly needed. 

I have this feeling that no location will be good enough for enough people
that it is worth it.  For example, some people will want to share ftp
space among machines so that users have easy access to their own public 
ftp directory from everywhere.  Others might not want to do that, because
their ftp directories need to be protected.

So I think it would be preferable to make the locations configurable.

I'm going to have my debiandoc package (just made the first attempt at
caching, and it's working fine :) ask the location of the cgi-bin and
web data directories (with possibly intelligent suggestions, of course).

---

From: "Darren/Torin/Who Ever..." <[email-masked]>
Date: 02 Jul 1996 23:22:19 -0700

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>now chooses that for itself. But I think that it should be somewhere in /var.

I actually have a /web partition that I keep the various virtual web and
ftp servers.  It follows from my /home partition.  But then again, I
don't use the debian wu-ftpd or apache...I've hacked on them too much.

Darren
- -- 
<[email-masked]> <http://www.daft.com/~torin> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Darren Stalder/2608 Second Ave, @282/Seattle, WA 98121-1212/USA/+1-800-921-4996
@ Do you have your clothes on? I probably don't. Take yours off. Feel better. @
@ Sysadmin, webweaver, postmaster for hire.  C/Perl/CGI programmer and tutor. @

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From: "James A. Robinson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 12:46:04 -0400

> location, and store it somewhere suitable.  Any package that wants to

I agree completely on this one.  A lot of people have different places
they want to place web source -- it doesn't fit neatly into any of the
standard locations.  I personally put it in /usr/local/www, but some
other person may want it in /var/lib, /usr/lib, or /usr/local/lib.
All of which can make sense.  (for me, /var/ is fairly small, and so
is not a very good location for web stuff)

Jim

---

From: Chris Fearnley <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:44:47 -0400 (EDT)

'Peter Tobias wrote:'
>directory for anonymous FTP. I won't call that a mistake.

Yes, Peter also championed having a user configurable place for the
web pages.  I think this would be a good idea.  Also, for bind
(although it's fsstnd to put bind configuration in /var/named, it
would be somewhat more convenient to make this user-configurable).

-- 
Christopher J. Fearnley            |    Linux/Internet Consulting
[email-masked], [email-masked]       |    UNIX SIG Leader at PACS
http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf         |    (Philadelphia Area Computer Society)
ftp://ftp.netaxs.com/people/cjf    |    Design Science Revolutionary
"Dare to be Naive" -- Bucky Fuller |    Explorer in Universe

---

From: Ian Jackson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 00:10 BST

> directory for anonymous FTP. I won't call that a mistake.

Right.  My complaint about apache was that it ignored the entry
for www in /etc/passwd completely, as well as that the default was
horrendous and that it didn't ask.

I don't know if it's going to be possible to reach consensus, but I'd
like to add a few points in favour of /home:

* The web data probably wants roughly the same backup policy as /home,
since it is usually edited by humans rather than programs.

* Humans do not usually edit things in /var - the named data is about
the only exception I can think of.

* The webtree really ought to be the home directory of the www user,
so it makes somewhat more sense to put it in /home.

* We surely want all our WWW servers to do it the same way, and
cern-httpd got there first with /home/httpd-data (which I think is a
silly name, btw, and override to /home/www).

Ian.