Subject: time to split the list?

From: [email-masked] (Bruce Perens)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 13:58 PDT

Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high
level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time
to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for
people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough
traffic for that. We probably do now.

I would propose:

	debian-install
	debian-nontechnical
	debian-technical

Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) .

	Bruce

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From: [email-masked] (Thomas R Behrndt)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:31:32 +1000 (EST)

A very good idea. However, it might be a good idea to retain the name
debian-user as well, particularly since there is now a news group of that
name.
 
-- 
Thomas R Behrndt					[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Tim Sailer)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:59:50 -0400 (EDT)

> traffic for that. We probably do now.

I think this is a good idea. Would debian-user stay, or go away?

Tim

-- 
 (work) [email-masked] / (home) [email-masked] - http://www.buoy.com/~tps
  "Why am I soft in the middle, and the rest of my life is so hard?"
   Paul Simon
** Disclaimer: My views/comments/beliefs, as strange as they are, are my own.**

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From: Boris Yati Beletsky <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:20:26 +0300 (IDT)

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote:

|>Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 13:58 PDT
|>From: Bruce Perens <[email-masked]>
|>To: [email-masked]
|>Subject: time to split the list?
|>
|>Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high
|>level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time
|>to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for
|>people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough
|>traffic for that. We probably do now.
|>
|>I would propose:
|>
|>	debian-install
|>	debian-nontechnical
|>	debian-technical
|>
it's a very good idea , but i don't understand whats debian-nontechnical
would do?

Regards

___
Boris Beletsky <[email-masked]>
(finger [email-masked] for pgp public key)
___
Commorandi natura deversorium nobis, non habitandi dedit

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From: "Brian C. White" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 19:13:31 -0400

> traffic for that. We probably do now.

People love to complain about there being too much information, but they
overlook the fact that the reason they can get information and fast
responses is because there is so much going on there.  If you split
the list, many people will not subscribe to some of them and thus will
not be available to answer questions.  The result is a need to crosspost
to all lists in order to get a decent response.

I, for example, probably will not subscribe to the install and non-tech
groups (maybe not even "technical" since I don't understand what each
is for) and thus will not see questions regarding my packages.

My personal opinion is that splitting the lists will add much confusion
and help little.
                                             
                                          Brian
                                 ( [email-masked] )
                                             
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In theory, theory and practice are the same.  In practice, they're not.

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From: Guy Maor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:59:51 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote:

> Is it time to split the list?

This isn't necessary.  The number of messages per day is quite
reasonable.  As long as discussions are related to Debian, I don't
think it inappropriate that they get tecnical.

Guy

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:18:02 -0400 (EDT)

>it's a very good idea , but i don't understand whats debian-nontechnical
Well, I don't like it.  I've learned alot from the dialog, but I must admit that
often you guys get talking about issues that are unique to the packaging
or something, and has nothing to do with the user.  Its more like the 
maintainers often dialog here when that may be better done elsewhere.
Like, what I meant to do with this or that, but didn't have the time.....Then
the response goes, well, why not do it this way, and we're off....Maybe 
there should be a separate debian-install, but the other stuff is pretty
much debian-user (minus the developer or maintainer nits this and nit
that) if you ask me.

Paul

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From: Eze Ogwuma <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 03:58:16 +0100

> Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) .

If the lists were split the debian-user list could then get all messages from all the lists (something like the exmh-workers list).

-- 
Eze Ogwuma

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From: Dale Scheetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:35:36 -0400 (EDT)

> traffic for that. We probably do now.

I suspect that the intimidation is more due to the volume of mail
(specially if these folks are suggesting that a news group would be a
better forum) and simply don't wish to deal with that volume. Any good
mail viewer (even pine) provide good sort facilities (to pull a thread
together), so there is no reason to "have" to read messages that are too
technical.
Another point: Our mailing lists are some of the most friendly forums
available on the net and only the most obnoxious folks recieve any flames.

> 	debian-technical
I would prefer debian-install, debian-user, and debian-devel. I don't see
any discussion of Debian that could go into debian-nontechnical. Even a
discussion of the color scheme in dselect could quickly degenerate into a
technical discussion. As has been stated elsewhere, we already have
debian-talk, which satisfies all needs for off-topic discussions.

I have no problems with splitting the mailing lists (they currently all
come to me) but would be very opposed to moving them to news groups.
However, a moderated news group that feeds both from and to the mail lists
could be an advantagious setup.

Thanks for your time,

Dwarf

------------                                          --------------

aka   Dale Scheetz                   Phone:   1 (904) 877-0257
      Flexible Software              Fax:     NONE 
      Black Creek Critters           e-mail:  [email-masked]

------------ If you don't see what you want, just ask --------------

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From: "Christopher R. Hertel" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:43:51 -0500

On Sep 6,  8:31am, Thomas R Behrndt wrote:
> Subject: Re: time to split the list?
: A very good idea. However, it might be a good idea to retain the name
: debian-user as well, particularly since there is now a news group of
: that name.

Seconded.  I like the name debian-user better than debian-nontechnical.
 The latter (IMHO) sounds a bit more as though we are trying to divide
subscribers based on their knowledge level.

-- 
Christopher R. Hertel -)-----                   University of Minnesota
[email-masked]              Networking and Telecommunications Services

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From: [email-masked] (Winfried Truemper)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 19:13:40 GMT

I'm only subscribed to lists which do not carry more than 10 mails/week.
This way my mailbox keeps mostly interesting stuff which I can oversee.

It is a _must_ to convert high-traffic lists into newsgroups because:

   - one gets overwhelmed by the number of e-mails per day,
   - the disk gets clobbered by the size of the whole bunch (argh, I
     had 5 people sumitted to "debian-users" on my system),

   - newbies are not capable of (or have other problems than) setting
     up e-mail filters to sort the whole junk (hint: gnus is really
     cool), 

   - high-traffic often means "general interest" (so why not make it
     more public?),

   - one actually pays for the whole junk to download it via modem,

   - one has to unsubscribe when going on holidays,

On the other hand I see that

   + developers need to communicate more quickly than via news (takes
     up to 4 days)

   + it is much easier to create a mailing-list than a newsgroup

So my suggestions are:

   o Tell the people about the newsgroup "linux.debian.users" as an
     alternative to the mailinglist when confirming their
     subscription.
     Ignoring the technical stuff is a special case of ignoring
     subjects of no personally interest and can be done with most
     news-readers.
     (Yes, you can do this "easily" with mailinglist by using gnus,
      too but thats the exception.) 

   o make at least "debian-users-digest" for those people who want to
     keep on with the most interesting things

   o split the mailing-list to keep developers off from
     newbie-questions (they are likely to "waste" their time!) into

         debian-installation
             for questions "not" covered by the installation-manual :-)

         debian-newbies
             for those who have at least reached the login-prompt
             but aren't familiar with the system yet [no technical
             discussion allowed here; even such evil words as "emacs",
             "kernel" and such are strictly forbidden] :-)

         debian-users
             the good old list; for "long-time" debian-users

         debian-towers
             high-level technical discussions

   o make a "debian-all-digest" from all that lists above

-Winfried

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From: Derrick Mckoy <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:00:59 -0500 (GMT-0500)

This is a good idea.  I would suggest:

	debian-install
	debian-user (instead of debian-technical)
	debian-novice (instead of debian-nontechnical).

Derrick.

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From: Mark Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 12:07:21 +1000

I would not like to see the mailing list exchanged for a news group.
My news source is very slow and unreliable.  I do not seem to get a
lot of the messages.

Split the mailing list, but do not get rid of it all together.

Mark Phillips.  ([email-masked])

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From: "Richard G. Roberto" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:41:47 -0400 (EDT)

> Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) .

This sounds like a good idea, but I'd sure like to see one
of the lists a superset of the others if that's possible (a
la crossposting?)  Also, there's a new section in linux
journal providing help with various distributions.  Last
time I checked, Debian didn't have an entry.  Perhaps we
should come up with a debian-support list?

Thanks

Richard G. Roberto
[email-masked]
201-739-2886 - whippany, nj

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From: Eric Fluger <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:49:01 -0400

Yes!!

(In addition, 
a master containing all messages would probobly be appreciated by 
the thorough, the obsesive and the idle.)

ALSO: Making either the master or all subsets available as a digest 
would REALLY help!  I'm getting the firewall list this way.  
It's very tidy. 
(Perhaps those maintaining it could offer some pointers.)

- ef

====================