Subject: RE: time to split the list?

From: Casper BodenCummins <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:40:02 +0100

Brian C. White wrote:

>People love to complain about there being too much information, but they
>overlook the fact that the reason they can get information and fast
>responses is because there is so much going on there.  If you split
>the list, many people will not subscribe to some of them and thus will
>not be available to answer questions.  The result is a need to crosspost
>to all lists in order to get a decent response.

On the other hand, a little sorting saves a lot of time - time that can
be used to actively contribute. I voiced my support for Bruce's idea,
but also said that we could compromise by having at least a separate
debian-install list. There are several issues:

i.  We are probably losing potential Debian users due to the size and
    significant inaccessible technical content of debian-user. 60-70
messages
    a day is a lot to cope with, especially when you have other
interests.
    When much of it is Double Dutch, you tend to feel intimidated.
    * we lose fewer fans
ii. Decreasing the amount of irrelevant or uninteresting traffic leaves
more
    time to spend usefully contributing.
    * we have more useful time
iii.Some people get a real kick out of helping a newbie into the fray.
Some
    do some of the time. Others don't. If someone /wants/ to help,
they'll
    subscribe. If they don't have time today, well they can just junk
all the
    traffic in that list for today. Doing this manually is a bind.
    I agree that we'll lose some help because people who would have been
able
    to assist with a problem didn't subscribe to the debian-install
list, but
    I also think that there'll still be sufficient altruism and
expertise
    available. The trade-offs are worth it.
    * we save effort

>I, for example, probably will not subscribe to the install and non-tech
>groups

I imagine that, in a similar vein, you also don't spend much time read
non-technical and installation-specific posts. More's the better for you
if the traffic isn't there in the first place.

>(maybe not even "technical" since I don't understand what each
>is for) and thus will not see questions regarding my packages.
>My personal opinion is that splitting the lists will add much confusion
>and help little.

I really don't see much difficulty is interpreting Bruce's categories.
Do you think the titles are confusing? Suppose we just had debian-user
and debian-install. Would this be okay?

After reading your posts, I'm coming around to the view that two groups
- debian-user and debian-install - would be best. There is perhaps
insufficient non-technical discussion to warrant a separate list.

Casper Boden-Cummins.
--
Please do not cc: me when replying to the list

---

From: Lars Wirzenius <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:19:07 +0300

> insufficient non-technical discussion to warrant a separate list.

We already have the debian-talk list (send mail to
[email-masked] for info).

-- 
Please read <http://www.iki.fi/liw/mail-to-lasu.html> before mailing me.
Please don't Cc: me when replying to my message on a mailing list.

---

From: [email-masked] (Ronald van Loon)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:51:26 +0200 (MET DST)

This message is an example of the problem I mentioned earlier.

The actual message is "File pgptemp.$01 has signature but no text."

|"
|"--==_Exmh_-1614421896P
|"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|"
|"Casper BodenCummins:
|"> After reading your posts, I'm coming around to the view that two groups
|"> - debian-user and debian-install - would be best. There is perhaps
|"> insufficient non-technical discussion to warrant a separate list.
|"
|"We already have the debian-talk list (send mail to
|"[email-masked] for info).
|"
|"-- 
|"Please read <http://www.iki.fi/liw/mail-to-lasu.html> before mailing me.
|"Please don't Cc: me when replying to my message on a mailing list.
|"
|"
|"
|"--==_Exmh_-1614421896P
|"Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
|"
|"-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
|"Version: 2.6.2i
|"
|"iQCVAwUBMjAIp4QRll5MupLRAQElbgQAzS0dlnHL68pTZHW2c6SfSPDc/vyqIHMv
|"RG/9mvikh9mJ5ILpJqb71ReDJVy3ARrPcVf7WAtJUltlY0HRLn9jgEkpP0I3M39P
|"cLk9yI+a5q7ZjjtgSmiRq7KxCW2cltPbbTg2dJK7pSyNqSvgDl9UPv0GxuDhXOnh
|"3a3fkQ27rK0=
|"=MbV3
|"-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
|"
|"--==_Exmh_-1614421896P--
|"
|"

-- 
Ronald van Loon ([email-masked])

---

From: Lars Wirzenius <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 15:54:56 +0300

> The actual message is "File pgptemp.$01 has signature but no text."

Your Elm probably doesn't support PGP/MIME. See

	http://www.c2.org/~raph/pgpmime.html
	
for more information on PGP/MIME.

---

From: Jean Orloff <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:03:37 +0200

To begin with:
I installed Latex2e-7 yesterday, with libmf required, the mf**
packages mentionned earlier, and it all works without a single "format not
found"! Thanks debian-user!!!

Now the questions:

1) Where/how am I supposed to install latex styles for all users?
/usr/lib/texmf/tex is quite a jungle, and I thought I was not supposed to
customize /usr. But if I put in /usr/local, how to comply with the mysterious
logics behind Latex2e, and above all, how to get it accessible? I failed to
find an /etc config file...

2) Kpathsea is a nice and powerful thing. However, when viewing a dvi from
netscape, chances are it will contain unsual fonts and thus produce a lot of
output like 
	The letter A
	The letter B
	....
which is not thrilling, and which netscape chops into many dialogs you have to
each kill on the OK button... How do I tell metafont to run silently? I don't
mind keeping a single line each time a font is built... Again, no /etc config
file in sight...

Amities,

		Jean Orloff
+++++++++	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	++++++
+Tel:(33)50.09.16.75   Fax:(33)50.09.94.95   http://lapphp0.in2p3.fr/~orloff/+
+++++++++	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	++++++
In a Yugoslavian hotel:
       The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the 
       chambermaid.
+++++++++	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	++++++

---

From: Bill Wohler <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:50:45 -0700

Casper made some good points regarding debian-install.  Let's start
  with debian-install and debian-user and see how it goes.  I don't
  like debian-*technical.  At the moment, the line between debian-user
  and a potential debian-devel is rather fuzzy in my mind and as such
  both would carry much of the same traffic.  (Isn't there already a
  list for the debian developers for discussion of packaging and
  releases and such that wouldn't be of interest to the general
  public?)

Bill Wohler <[email-masked]>   ph: +1-415-854-1857  fax: +1-415-854-3195
Say it with MIME.  Maintainer of comp.mail.mh and news.software.nn FAQs.
If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 15:06 EDT

Jean> 1) Where/how am I supposed to install latex styles for all users?

Below /usr/local/lib/texmf/tex/latex/

As kpathsea searches recursively (see /usr/lib/texmf/web2c/texmf.cnf), I
usually keep some subdirs (that match the CTAN structure).

  Jean> 2) Kpathsea is a nice and powerful thing. However, when viewing a dvi
  Jean> from netscape, chances are it will contain unsual fonts and thus
  Jean> produce a lot of output like  [...]

Hm, I presume netscape just calls xdvi as you would from the command line.
So you have to configure it anyway. One file that needs some configuration
is
	/usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config.ps		
for things as resolution, papersize, ... This should probably be in /etc and
softlinked back to /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config.ps

--
Dirk Eddelb"uttel                             http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/~edd

---

From: RHS Linux User <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:34:01 +0200 (MET DST)

Hi there

I normally assume that Latex should be installed in /usr/local/texmf
 where all the libraries and styles are included. for everything to work 
perfectly you should add the proper paths in the /etc/bashrc or .bashrc

export TEXMF=/usr/local/texmf
export TEXINPUTS=.:$TEXMF/tex/latex2e//:$TEXMF/tex//

with these paths all the needed styles and defs are found by the system.

However and I dont know why linux distributions came with texmf installed 
in the /usr/lib/texmf

which is almost the same thing.

so what I should do in your case could be one of the two following things:

 - reinstall the latex package in the /usr/local/
   and install the new styles in the styles directory inside texmf

   or go ahead and install the packages in /usr/local but create a 
simbolic link in the styles directory inside /usr/lib/texmf where ever it is.

hope this helps

miguel