Subject: Linux-Development Digest #168
From: Digestifier <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 18:13:12 EDT

Linux-Development Digest #168, Volume #2         Tue, 13 Sep 94 18:13:12 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Acid (Richard L. Goerwitz)
  Re: Acid (Stephen J. Turnbull)
  Re: Acid (was: Simple acid test) (Stephen J. Turnbull)
  Re: which kernel with dosemu 0.53 ? (Stephen J. Turnbull)
  Re: Don't use Linux?! (Matt Welsh)
  Re: Don't use Linux?! (Riku Saikkonen)
  Where is Wine at? (Timothy Kulig)
  Re: Digi Intelligent Boards? ("Simon P Allen")
  Re: -fPIC flag in gcc (Carl Karlsson)
  (Q) ftape blues (Timothy Murphy)
  Bug in MSDOS fs ? (Per Holm)
  Parallel SCSI Support (Timothy Kulig)
  Looking for stories: business uses of Linux (Jay Ashworth)
  Re: MSDOS FS dates off by 5 days! (Slackware 2.0 bug?) (Matthias Urlichs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Subject: Re: Acid
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 14:34:57 GMT

[email-masked] (Joachim Schrod) writes:
>
>There is support for typesetting approximately 50 languages, including
>such beasts as Khmer. Multi-directional, of course. There exists also
>a Unicode-TeX.
>
>Don't expect the stuff to be easy to install, though. It still have
>its rought edges, in particular on the font side. But I did see it
>work... :-)

This is great news.  But I've heard it many times before.  Remember
my "acid test"?  Can I quote Shakespeare and the Quran in the same
paragraph, and have everything wrap and space correctly?  There are
established typographical conventions for multilingual and multidi-
rectional text.  I've heard of several TeX "versions" hacked to sup-
port one or another script or language.  But I've never heard of a
genuinely multilingual TeX.  Is there one?

Frustration is typically what I feel when talking to people about in-
ternationalized/multilingual documents.  For example there's been a
lot of hoopla over multilingual Emacs extensions - which turn out to
be hacks for Japanese mainle.  And there's a supposedly "multilingual"
Mosaic - which turns out to handle just a few European languages.
There has even been talk about how the Linux kernel does not rely on
national scripts, and is thus multilingual, but a quick grep of the
source tree reveals many expressions that rely on a stable mapping of
specific alphabetic symbols like 'a' to a single underlying code.

One of our list readers did send me some of the specs on Mime, and lo
and behold this does seem - really - to be a multilingual standard.
It even has explicit discussion of multidirectional documents that mix
scripts from languages with "incompatible" directions (at least left-
right and right-left; the conventions for embedding left-right in
up-down text require that you turn things sideways :-)).

-- 

   -Richard L. Goerwitz              [email-masked]
   [email-masked]          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Subject: Re: Acid
Date: 12 Sep 94 06:40:28 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In article <[email-masked]>, Lau <[email-masked]> wrote:
>    
>    Postscript would come very close but having to incorporate 
>bitmaps/glyphs w/ each file would be a pain (not to mention outrageously 
>huge...have also yet to see non-European language fonts for less than an 
>arm and a leg).

Well, you only have to do this once, if you're smart---you do it as a
separate file.  In the case of ISO8859-1 and linux, I guess that file
is 'vmlinuz'---or, I guess, your video card ROM.  (If I got that
wrong, don't waste your breath flaming, just substitute the correct
charset and font location.)

I should say Chinese, Japanese, and Korean count as 'non-European',
and any X11R[456] mirror has those in BFD format.  (Japanese and
Korean for sure, and I believe this is true of Chinese as well for R5
and R6.)  I believe there are also Arabic fonts available in the same
places, but I'm not sure.  I seem to recall that the Hershey fonts
include several non-European fonts, but they certainly don't include
anything like a functional set of kanji for Japanese.  I believe that
X and maybe Ghostscript include Type-1-izing programs for bitmap
fonts, as well.

>    Actually, TeX/LaTeX would come closest...and its available for several 
>languages.

Including Chinese and Japanese.  But I don't know if Don Knuth thought
about multidirectional languages.

One place where people have done a *lot* of thinking about
multilingual programming and localization is the MULE project, the
MUlti-Lingual Emacs.  I don't use the multi-lingual aspects, but they
are apparently pretty sophisticated.  Also, there are multi-locale
extensions for Mosaic; as of 6 months ago they didn't support multiple
languages in the same browser window, though.  For both of these, you
can point your WWW browser at www.ntt.ac.jp (love them phone company
labs!) and Mosaic info of course can be found at www.ncsa.uiuc.ecu.
>
>    Kin Lau ([email-masked])
>    
>---
>* UniQWK v3.0 * The Windows Mail Reader
>                          

-- 
Steve Turnbull
Chief Advice-Giving Officer, Yasepotchi-gumi (sm)
Social Engineering and Mechanism Design
"REAL Solutions to REAL Problems of REAL People in REAL Time!  REALLY."
(c) 1992, 1993, 1994 Yasepotchi-gumi

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Subject: Re: Acid (was: Simple acid test)
Date: 12 Sep 94 06:53:20 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In article <[email-masked]>,
Richard L. Goerwitz <[email-masked]> wrote:
>[email-masked] (Joachim Schrod) writes:
>
>>Perhaps you should differentiate between multilingual (can work with
>>many languages/scripts at once) and internationalized (can work with
>>an arbitrary but fixed language/script at one given instantiation).
>>
>>In our work this distinction has shown to be very proficient. And the
>>literature on I18N actually often mean the latter thing.
>
>This really does make sense.  In my muddled way of thinking, though,
>supporting multilingual features (e.g. wide or multi-byte characters,
>multiple scripts/wordwrap directions, and so on) is one of the best
>ways to lay a foundation for internationalization.

Yes, it's necessary.  No, it's nowhere near sufficient.  There are
wrong ways of doing it.  For example, in the original NEmacs (Japanese
emacs) the code which handled 1-byte charsets (ie, interpolated
English as far as I was concerned; there are other 1-byte charsets
used in Japanese but I don't use them) for some reason insisted on
making quotation marks into a word (so that "this" could wrap between
the 's' and the '"') in a way that could *not* be properly fixed by
the usual GNU emacs wordbreaking facilities.  Instead a separate test
had to be added in the wordwrapping function, a place that non-USS
Enterprise crewmembers should never have to seek out.  Furthermore,
this was *not* robust across 2-byte charsets (for historical and
Microsoft---why do they screw up everything they touch?---reasons
there are no less than three 2-byte charsets for the ideographic kanji
in common use on general purpose computers, and yet others on the
dedicated wordprocessors).  Furthermore, on at least one occasion (the
file got lost in a flurry of editing, and I haven't been able to
reproduce it) my fix broke the interpretation of 2-byte sequences.
    I have not checked this, but I was told that MULE, the updated
MUlti-Lingual Emacs, uses a state flag to determine whether there is a
one-byte charset in use, and this problem should not occur.

>
>-- 
>
>   -Richard L. Goerwitz              [email-masked]
>   [email-masked]          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer

-- 
Steve Turnbull

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Subject: Re: which kernel with dosemu 0.53 ?
Date: 12 Sep 94 07:17:08 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In article <[email-masked]>, Rob Janssen <[email-masked]> wrote:
>In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Srini Seetharam) writes:
>>I downloaded the dosemu0.53 pre alpha release.
>>I would like to know which kernel it is compatible with.
>
>Then why don't you read the documentation in the dosemu0.53 package?
>
>Rob

I haven't read the dosemu0.53 docs, but the previous ones basically
say 1.1.something+, or 1.0.soemthing with some patch.  They all also
say "your mileage may vary" or equivalent disclaimer, since it is
alpha software still.
    Grepping for 'kernel' and 'compat' gave nothing useful, although I
may not have all the docs.
    Presumably he wants to know which kernels seem to break dosemu---I
have seen such posts on this group.  Maybe completely unwarranted, but
I've seen them.  (I don't know or care whether they were true bugs or
not, since I'm using 1.1.18 + dosemu 0.52 and nothing's broke yet, nor
do I yet need any capabilities that pair doesn't have.)
    'Twould be 'nice' (I should volunteer, but I'm not even keeping up
with my other volunteer projects) if there were a 'kernel-incompatibility'
file to go with the 'EMU-success' file, just to record people's
complaints.  (Compiler wouldn't bother to verify them, just archive
them for others to check out.)
-- 
Steve Turnbull

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Don't use Linux?!
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 14:23:47 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Michael Schumacher) writes:
>installations, but it's likely to be in the 100000's. One could think
>that companies are willing to consider Linux a reasonable and serious
>platform, and that they would port and offer their products to the
>Linux community. However, they are far away from doing so, actually. 
>Here's why:

I have to agree with most of your observations. This was a 
well-thought-out article.

>   Quo vadis, Linux? Do we continue to like Linux "as is", or should we
>change something in order to encourage companies to develop commercial, but
>sophisticated end-user software for this beautiful OS? Do we continue to
>keep Linux a powerful tool for wizards only, or do we want to see Linux 
>being used in offices and other commercial environments? If we *really*
>want Linux to succeed, we *need* the companies and their commercial products!

This is one of the goals of Linux International, a nonprofit organization 
which is currently forming. A number of Linux developers, such as Michael 
Johnson, Alan Cox, and Ian Murdock are working with Linux International in 
order to promote the development and growth of Linux. One of LI's goals is 
to lobby commercial software developers to release products for Linux.

This is not LI's only goal, of course. Another focus is to support the
Linux developers themselves, by helping to direct donations and funding.
My concept has been to form a "grant fund" where people can send donations
to support Linux development. People who wish to develop software for
Linux (such as new device drivers, applications, and so forth) and require
funding (to purchase equipment, documentation, etc.) can make a 
grant request. Grants will be awarded out of the pool of donations sent
to this fund.

This seems to be the only way to manage donations for Linux development.
With all due respect, it doesn't make a great dceal of sense to send
your money just to Linus Torvalds or Patrick Volkerding. Scores of
others have spent as much time working on Linux over the last two
years. You could always support the FSF, which does, in fact, support Linux. 
But what about people developing the Linux kernel? And the many others not 
affiliated directly with the FSF? Because the Linux "development team" is so 
disorganized, a grant fund seems to be the best way to go.

There's no organization behind Linux. LI is not an attempt to form one.
It is just an attempt to promote the growth of Linux through aiding
developers. 

LI is still in the planning stage, but watch c.o.l.* and Linux Journal
for more details.

M. Welsh

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Don't use Linux?!
From: [email-masked] (Riku Saikkonen)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 17:45:00 +0200

>Wrong.  You may make statically linked, binary-only releases.
>All you have to do is to distribute an unlinked version of your
>program along the ready-to-use version.  This is not too much
>of a hassle.

Uh... Stupid question: What is the best way to distribute the unlinked
binary? The .o files?

-=- Rjs -=- [email-masked] - IRC: Rjs
"For still there are so many things / that I have never seen: /
in every wood in every spring / there is a different green." - Tolkien

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Timothy Kulig)
Subject: Where is Wine at?
Date: 13 Sep 1994 02:13:23 GMT

I mean this in the Process manner, not the ftp site names.
Where is it at in terms of movement? Is it really obtainable?
Again I mean this in the completion sense. Not that I'm knocking
the more than intelligent people who are developing it, because
I could'nt touch them with a twelve foot pole. Will "Chicago"
make all wine work obsolete? Just curious.

I Thank you.

Timothy Kulig

--
 ============================================================================= 
    __&__     |
   /     \    |   Timothy Alan Kulig  [email-masked] or [email-masked]
  |       |   | 
  |  (o)(o)   |   S Y S T E L  Unix Windows Dos Vax - You name it!
  C   .---_)  | 
   | |.___|   |   If you need anything in the Unix World, Feel Free to call! 
   |  \__/    | 
   /_____\    |   (800) 906-2167   (810) 960-9783   Data: (810) 960-7679
  /_____/ \   |  
 /         \  |   Homer Simpson is my Idol.  MMMMM Fuzzy Grape!!
 ============================================================================= 

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] ("Simon P Allen")
Subject: Re: Digi Intelligent Boards?
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 19:08:51 GMT

Linux device driver for Specialix Intelligent serial card is in Alpha 
test. See the Linux project FAQ for details.

Cheers & Beers, Simon.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Carl Karlsson)
Subject: Re: -fPIC flag in gcc
Date: 13 Sep 1994 20:02:48 GMT

[Jumping in on the -fPIC discussion :)]

I'm trying to port a few dynamic libraries from a sparc to Linux. 
Everything have been working OK until now, when I realize that I can't
have mutually dependent libraries (that is, a routine in lib X calls
a routine in lib Y, and vice versa).
I've tried a few things, but no matter what I end up with symbols
undefined in one of the libraries.
It seems that a DLL have to be self-contained. I know the obvious answer
to this question - rearrange the libraries - but since that is a little
bit of too much work, I would like to know if there's another way out.

PIC works OK both under SunOS and Solaris 2. I'm using tools-2.16 and
gcc 2.5.8.

Rgds,
  Calle

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Timothy Murphy)
Subject: (Q) ftape blues
Date: 13 Sep 1994 15:32:13 +0100

(1) The ftape that comes with Slackware 2.0
does not work with my Colorado Jumbo
(the first drive mentioned in the documentation).

The drive works perfectly under MSDOS.

Did anyone get ftape to work "out of the box"
with this version of Slackware?

My impression is that it does not work.
In that case it surely should not be distributed?

(2) Although the latest version of ftape from sunsite
compiled without problem,
insmod threw up half-a-dozen linking errors.

Is one meant to apply a patch?
If so, why is that not stated anywhere in the distribution?

(3) Am I alone in finding this software (ftape) causes undue suffering?

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: [email-masked]
tel: +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Per Holm)
Subject: Bug in MSDOS fs ?
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 20:48:53 GMT

There seem to be a bug in the msdos fs..

I have a 250 MB dos partition (formattet with MSDOS 5), and when mounting 
this partition under linux, I'm not able to read a file using the last 
cluster on the disk...   It causes an I/O error...

There is not any problems reading the same file when booting plain dos..

The error has been in the kernel since 1.1.29, and may be in older versions.

Regards

   Per Holm

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Timothy Kulig)
Subject: Parallel SCSI Support
Date: 13 Sep 1994 02:15:24 GMT

Is there such a thing? I have a friend with a Parallel NEC CDROM Drive
who wants to run it with Linux, Is there a Parallel SCSI support for
Linux? I appreciate it.

Thanx in advance!!!!!

Keep up the beautiful work!!

Timothy Kulig

--
 ============================================================================= 
    __&__     |
   /     \    |   Timothy Alan Kulig  [email-masked] or [email-masked]
  |       |   | 
  |  (o)(o)   |   S Y S T E L  Unix Windows Dos Vax - You name it!
  C   .---_)  | 
   | |.___|   |   If you need anything in the Unix World, Feel Free to call! 
   |  \__/    | 
   /_____\    |   (800) 906-2167   (810) 960-9783   Data: (810) 960-7679
  /_____/ \   |  
 /         \  |   Homer Simpson is my Idol.  MMMMM Fuzzy Grape!!
 ============================================================================= 

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Jay Ashworth)
Subject: Looking for stories: business uses of Linux
Date: 13 Sep 1994 17:01:09 -0400

I'm compiling stories from the net concerning the use of Linux in
commercial environments.  If you have anything to contribute, please email
it to me, at the .sig address.  I'm summarizing; I'll post id there's
interest.  Please let me know what you're doing, even if you can't release
details to the public, I'll respect proprietary rights.  I'm just trying
to document critical mass.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                                                       Ashworth
Designer                                                          & Associates
ka1fjx/4              High Technology Systems Consulting
[email-masked]                                                +1 813 790 7592

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Matthias Urlichs)
Subject: Re: MSDOS FS dates off by 5 days! (Slackware 2.0 bug?)
Date: 13 Sep 1994 08:49:30 +0200

In comp.os.linux.development, article <[email-masked]>,
  [email-masked] writes:
> 
> Not +5 days, but EET diff * 60 seconds.
> sys_tz.tz_minuteswest sustains not minute, but seconds!

Well, it _should_ contain (not sustain) minutes.

> Try
>          secs += sys_tz.tz_minuteswest;
> 
Don't.

> Of course, its better to set tz_minute in munute....

True. Therefore, the problem is not in the kernel but in whichever program
uses seconds for minuteswest in the settimeofday() system call. See "man
settimeofday"; it talks about minutes.

-- 
By the yard, life is hard.
By the inch, it's a cinch.
-- 
Matthias Urlichs        \ XLink-POP Nürnberg  | EMail: [email-masked]
Schleiermacherstraße 12  \  Unix+Linux+Mac    | Phone: ...please use email.
90491 Nürnberg (Germany)  \   Consulting+Networking+Programming+etc'ing     42
          PGP: 1B 89 E2 1C 43 EA 80 44  15 D2 29 CF C6 C7 E0 DE 
      Click <A HREF="http://smurf.noris.de/~urlichs/finger">here</A>.

------------------------------

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End of Linux-Development Digest
******************************