Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #746
From: Digestifier <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 14:13:40 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #746, Volume #2                Mon, 12 Sep 94 14:13:40 EDT

Contents:
  Q: Reading from a ext2fs partition from DOS? (Won Hong)
  Re: The snatchability factor (was Re: WABI vs (Martin Sohnius)
  Re: DOOM for Linux (Christophe Person)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Won Hong)
Subject: Q: Reading from a ext2fs partition from DOS?
Date: 12 Sep 1994 17:34:36 GMT

Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question, didn't really do any searching
for this yet, but I haven't seen anything on c.o.l.announce.

Just wondering if there is a DOS program you can use to be able to
read the Linux ext2fs partitions, guess it would be something like
the mscdex thing to read iso9660 format.  It would just be nice to
be able to access things on all my drives in either operating system.

Thanks in advance.

Jesse Hong.
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.sys.hp,comp.sys.hp.apps,comp.sys.sun.apps,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.apps,comp.unix.unixware
From: [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius)
Subject: Re: The snatchability factor (was Re: WABI vs
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:35:56 GMT

An unfortunate flame-has started here between J.J. (Hans) Paaijmans and
myself.  I had indeed not realised that he felt threatened by my occasional
references to legal software copyright issues.  He was not the target,
and my argument with him was about totally different issues.

Let me copy some of the proceedings, unfortunately at some length, since I
don't intend to <snip> very much in an argument like this.

This was, I believe, his opening of this thread, passed on from the long-running
and generally high-strung "WABI vs. SoftWindows?" thread:

| From: [email-masked] (J.J. Paijmans)
| Subject: The snatchability factor (was Re: WABI vs. SoftWindows?)
| Date: 24 Aug 1994 08:05:58 GMT
| Organization: Tilburg University, Tilburg, The Netherlands
| 
| In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Thomas M Buccelli) writes:
| >Sean Donnellan. ([email-masked]) wrote:
| >[... snip snip snip ...]
| >
| >> Linux is free therefore --> everyone can afford it therfore -->
| >> we can sell products for Linux and be sure that everyone who has a 386 or
| >> higher can run the software!!
| ...
| >
| >The only problem I can see with your argument is getting people
| >to spend $500+ for a software package when they received their OS
| >for free. It seems more likely that the buyer of a $500+ software
| >package would be the one who paid something for the OS.
| 
| I guess that if the market for such software expands dramatically
| owing to the free OS, prices will rapidly become lower. And then
| there is the "jatbaarheidsfactor" ("snatchability factor").
| I reckon that a great part of the success of programs like
| Wordperfect, or the Borland compilers, is due to the fact that
| it is easily stolen. Same goes for the success of the old
| Apple II and the IBM PC-designs, that were easily copied
| by other manufactorers (sp?).
| 
| Without wanting a discussion on the ethics of copying software
| and hardware design, I think that the rapid dispersal of copies
| of good software does more for the original seller than
| the loss of income - most copiers won't buy anyway but when
| their boss looks for a good wordprocessor to buy for the
| office, they know what to suggest.
| 
| I predict that as soon as illegal copies of, say, Wordperfect
| for SCO (not demo's, but the real thing) are gonna circulate
| in the Linux community, the figures of copies actually sold
| will boom.
|
| As a matter of fact, if *I* was the president of Wordperfect,
| I would rush a copy of a WP binary compiled for Linux to
| sunsite.unc.edu *immediatly*, and then sit back and wait
| for the orders from universities.
| 
| Hans Paijmans.
| 
| PS: If mr. president-of-Wordperfect reads this and follows
| my advice, I will settle for a fee of one single dollar
| per WP4Linux sold. :-)

Now this is where I hooked in:

| From: [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius)
|
| J.J. Paijmans ([email-masked]) wrote:
| : [ mostly valid argument for allowing software theft snipped ]
| 
| : I predict that as soon as illegal copies of, say, Wordperfect
| : for SCO (not demo's, but the real thing) are gonna circulate
| : in the Linux community, the figures of copies actually sold
| : will boom.
| 
| : As a matter of fact, if *I* was the president of Wordperfect,
| : I would rush a copy of a WP binary compiled for Linux to
| : sunsite.unc.edu *immediatly*, and then sit back and wait
| : for the orders from universities.
| 
| : Hans Paijmans.
| 
| : PS: If mr. president-of-Wordperfect reads this and follows
| : my advice, I will settle for a fee of one single dollar
| : per WP4Linux sold. :-)
| 
| Mr President of Novell-Wordperfect Inc. (Bob Frankenberg) will sure be
| pleased by your advice.  Did you once say you were a computer journalist?
| I am afraid, that your chances of getting a review copy of UnixWare
| have just taken a knock.

What I saw as his problem in getting review copies, was NOT his opinions
regarding nicked software, which he shares with most academic users I have
ever spoken to, and which I describe i the snip as "mostly valid", but
rather the combination of his earlier claim to be a computer journalist,
and his obvious ignorance of arguably the biggest piece of PC-software news
this year:  the Novell-Wordperfect merger.

But obviously, he didn't understand me on this point:

| From: [email-masked] (J.J. Paijmans)
| 
| In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius) writes:
| >J.J. Paijmans ([email-masked]) wrote:
| ...
| >
| >: As a matter of fact, if *I* was the president of Wordperfect,
| >: I would rush a copy of a WP binary compiled for Linux to
| >: sunsite.unc.edu *immediatly*, and then sit back and wait
| >: for the orders from universities.
| >
| >: Hans Paijmans.
| >
| >: PS: If mr. president-of-Wordperfect reads this and follows
| >: my advice, I will settle for a fee of one single dollar
| >: per WP4Linux sold. :-)
| >
| >Mr President of Novell-Wordperfect Inc. (Bob Frankenberg) will sure be
| >pleased by your advice.  Did you once say you were a computer journalist?
| >I am afraid, that your chances of getting a review copy of UnixWare
| >have just taken a knock.
| >
| >                        +--------------------------------------------+
| >Martin Sohnius          | "It doesn't matter whether the cat is      |
| 
| 
| Why? Because I predict that distributing free copies of WP4Unix will
| increase sales? Or because I am of the opinion that illegal copies of
| a program may actually bring in more benefits for the manufacturer in
| the long run? Did you get the impression that I gave away copies of
| software I had for reviewing purposes? Or that I endorsed stealing?
| 
| I honestly fail to understand what this has to do with getting
| review copies of Unixware and I feel a bit vexed by your reaction.
| 
| hans Paijmans.

I failed to respond reassuringly to the "vexed" thing, sorry!  But to my
defense I must say that I didn't feel like expounding on the fact of his
ignorance of the WP-Novell merger.

Then a totally new aspect opened up, nothing at all to do with J.J.
Paaijmans:

| From: [email-masked] (Thomas Tonino)
| Organization: VU Biology, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
| Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 21:35:59 GMT
| 
| As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
| wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
| attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
| piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
| 
| 
| So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.

And my response to *this*, not to the previous stuff, was:

| From: [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius)
| Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 15:54:47 GMT
| 
| Thomas Tonino ([email-masked]) wrote:
| : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
| : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
| : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
| : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
| 
| : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
| 
| I would have my doubts whether Novell-Wordperfect Inc. still has
| this attitude.  Why don't you try?  (But I would recommend a VERY good
| legal insurance policy first.)

Now here *is* a threat:  don't put Novell software on an ftp site, or 
else...

I was also repudiating a perceived leniency by WP Netherlands, because in
my opinion (and remember, all of this is my opinion!) Novell is unlikely to
continue such an attitude, should it ever have existed.  It goes against
the grain of what I perceive as Novell's business philosophy.  (We are,
e.g., regularly running anti-theft software on all internal PC's -- meaning
that employees are checked whether they may be running illegally acquired
software, even loading one copy of Windows onto more than one UnixWare
box.  Yes, we also protect Cousin Bill's property :-)

Then we had yet another idea thrown in:

| From: [email-masked] (Andreas Helke)
| Date: 2 Sep 1994 01:19:31 GMT
| Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
| 
| Thomas Tonino ([email-masked]) wrote:
| : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
| : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
| : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
| : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
| 
| 
| : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
| 
| I think the original idea was a unsuported but free version recompiled to be
| a linux only binary. This might indeed be a valuable marketing tool for the
| commercial unix versions.

Which ellicited this comment from Australia:

| From: [email-masked] (Steven R. Clark)
| Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 03:34:06 GMT
| Organization: Flinders University of S.A.
| 
| In article [email-masked], [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius) writes:
| > Thomas Tonino ([email-masked]) wrote:
| > : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
| > : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
| > : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
| > : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
| > 
| > : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
| > 
| > I would have my doubts whether Novell-Wordperfect Inc. still has
| > this attitude.  Why don't you try?  (But I would recommend a VERY good
| > legal insurance policy first.)
| > 
<my .sig ommitted>
| 
| They are definately NOT interested in allowing people to pirate their software.
| They are also not interested in porting WP to Linux either. We have offered to
| help .. official word is .. don't call us, we'll call you .. and we were willing
| to pay for it too ...
| 
| Steven R. Clark
| President, South Australian Linux Users Group

Note, BTW, that I am quoted as if I were the source of this "official Word".
I am not.  Note also that the original thing about WordPerfect Netherlands
was re-quoted, so I felt I had to chip in again:

| From: [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius)
| Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:44:44 GMT
| 
| Steven R. Clark ([email-masked]) wrote:
| : In article [email-masked], [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius) writes:
| : > Thomas Tonino ([email-masked]) wrote:
| : > : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
| : > : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
| : > : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
| : > : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
| : > 
| : > : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
| : > 
| : > I would have my doubts whether Novell-Wordperfect Inc. still has
| : > this attitude.  Why don't you try?  (But I would recommend a VERY good
| : > legal insurance policy first.)
| : > 
| 
| : They are definately NOT interested in allowing people to pirate their software.
| : They are also not interested in porting WP to Linux either. We have offered to
| : help .. official word is .. don't call us, we'll call you .. and we were willing
| : to pay for it too ...
| 
| Over lunch today, I mentioned this thread to the guy who is in charge of
| software piracy issues for Novell-Wordperfect in Europe.  His reaction was
| "forward the thread to me".  (See above, re legal insurance.)
| 
| BTW, I understand that WP 6 for UnixWare is in beta.

(a perfectly true story:  we had our annual summer party last Friday,
and I really did speak to the recently appointed software-piracy guy for
Europe, whom I knew from elsewhere, and I *did* mention this thread, and
the reported perception of WP NL's attitude, and he *did* reply as I
quoted.)

This elicited the reponse from J.J. Paaijmans:

| From: [email-masked] (J.J. Paijmans)
| Date: 10 Sep 1994 06:39:57 GMT
| 
| In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Martin Sohnius) writes:
| ...
| >
| >Over lunch today, I mentioned this thread to the guy who is in charge of
| >software piracy issues for Novell-Wordperfect in Europe.  His reaction was
| >"forward the thread to me".  (See above, re legal insurance.)
| >
| >BTW, I understand that WP 6 for UnixWare is in beta.
| >
| >--
| >                        +--------------------------------------------+
| >Martin Sohnius          | "It doesn't matter whether the cat is      |
| 
| Martin not only accused me implicitly of software-piracy (see this
| thread a few weeks ago), he now threatens to set his legal bloodhounds
| on this thread.  Obviously it is his right to do so but it effectively
| portraits the horror that established firms feel when confronted with
| new developments.

Like theft?

| And it is so bloody stupid... Linux offers a new way to boost
| WP-sales, which is a BIG seller, and all they can do is wave with
| lawyers and insert fingers in dykes, because it might threaten that
| Unixware of theirs, that is a SMALL seller and likely will remain so.
| 
| Guess in which department Martin (or should I say: Mister Sohnius)
| is working...

In case you are interested, it's Dr. Sohnius, but Herr Sohnius, or even
better, Herr Dr. Sohnius will do.   And the department is Novell Labs, the
Certification People.

| 
| Paai.

Looks like he still hasn't understood that UnixWare and Wordperfect 
come from the same company, for heaven's sake!

OK, let's make one thing clear (again):  that I came to the conclusion
that he shouldn't get a review copy was not because he would be likely to
pass it on in multitudes, but because I think he is not a journalist whose
opinion about UnixWare or Novell I would like to see in print.  Perfectly
fair, isn't it?  He's got, after all, a point to prove, namely that UW "is
a SMALL seller and likely will remain so".

It appears I have friends as well as enemies:

| From: [email-masked] (Martin L. Smith)
| Sender: [email-masked] (Martin L. Smith)
| Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 20:37:02 GMT
| 
| It's unfortunate that this topic has generated so much heat.  I can't
| claim to know what was in anyone's mind while posting a note but the
| tenor of the accusations that appear to be flying in this thread is
| wildly incongruous with the open, helpful, discreet role the
| Novellistas in this group, and specifically including Martin (with
| whom I share only an accidental common name, unless of course he was
| named after me), have played.

Thanks, and you won't believe it:  the afore-mentioned software piracy guy,
to  whom I spoke over lunch on Friday, is called "Martin Smith". :-)

<Harrison's very supportive contribution omitted, as well as his perfectly
lovely argument that if ever someone were entitled to a free WP, it should
be him who's been using and paying for it for ages.>

However, an important part of Harrison's post is quoted in Mijnheer Paaijmans'
reply of this morning:

| From: [email-masked] (J.J. Paijmans)
| Date: 12 Sep 1994 07:33:55 GMT
| 
| In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Harrison Picot) writes:
| 
 <earlier quotes snipped>
| 
| >>Martin not only accused me implicitly of software-piracy (see this
| >>thread a few weeks ago), he now threatens to set his legal bloodhounds
| >
| >If my memory serves, Martin suggested that you wouldn't be likely
| >candidate for a free review copy. He might be implying that you
| >wouldn't be likely to help sales.  You don't need to expand on that
| >in a bad way,  and then blame it on Martin.
| 
| Well, I took Martin up on that, pointing out my interpretation of
| his words and adding that I was quite vexed by his words. If he had
| meant them differently, he would have said so, I guess.
| 
| >
| >[snip]
| >>And it is so bloody stupid... Linux offers a new way to boost
| >>WP-sales, which is a BIG seller, and all they can do is wave with
| >
| >If WP is going to give away software, why not give it to those of
| >us that paid for the development?  Like me, I have bought it, DOS
| 
| Neither I nor anybody else (as far as I remember) asked for WP to
| give something away. All we have been doing is to speculate on
| the merits of free/illegal copies as sales-booster. Martin choose
| too pursue that line in the direction of waving lawyers around.
| 
| >things to all people.  You don't need to wack UW just because Novell
| >people don't want to give you their work for free.  
| >
| 
| See above. And yes, I still think it is in the interest of *any* sound
| software to generate free copies. If that makes me a target for Martin's
| legal eagle, well, so be it.
| 
| Paai.

Well, it doesn't.  There should be no discussion here.  Hans believes
that illegal copies in the long run help sales.  I happen to believe
that he is right.  Thinking this, and arguing one's case is no offense
in any sense.  Putting up other people's software for free downloading
is very doubtful, and indeed then downloading and using it is clearly
illegal.  So much for my layman's legal opinion.

.. and just to be on the safe side, I finally include Hans' copy
right notice, which applies to everything above:

| -- 
| Copyright Hans Paijmans 1994. Niets hierboven mag geheel of
| gedeeltelijk worden geciteerd buiten de nieuwsgroep(en) waar het
| oorspronkelijk is geplaatst.  Nothing of the above may be cited
| outside the newsgroups in which the message originally was posted.
| ---------------------------

and my own .sig (ditto)

                        +--------------------------------------------+
Martin Sohnius          | "It doesn't matter whether the cat is      |
Novell Labs Europe      |  black or white, as long as it catches     |
Bracknell, England      |  mice."      - Deng Xiaoping               |
+44-1344-724031         +--------------------------------------------+
                        (I speak for myself, not for Novell or anyone else.)

------------------------------

From: Christophe Person
Subject: Re: DOOM for Linux
Date: 12 Sep 1994 14:24:40 GMT

I think comp-os-linux-misc is the perfect place to talk about tehcnical problem
using Xdoom. At least comp-os-linux-help is fine too.

For general DOOM topics, better is to use alt.games.doom. These guys on
this one could complain if everybody post technical problems with linxxdoom 
and I would understand it.

Until there is a comp-os-linux-doom group (useless), I will continue using
this group. 

If you don't agree, don't read them...

*cp++;

"Flames will be immediately redirected to /dev/null"

------------------------------

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