Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #850
From: Digestifier <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 13:13:34 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #850, Volume #2                Fri, 30 Sep 94 13:13:34 EDT

Contents:
  Re: New Linux Distribution (Steve Dunham)
  Re: 256 colors on laptop X (Mark Hedley)
  Re: New Linux Distribution (Erik Troan)
  Re: New Linux Distribution (Thomas Aaron Insel)
  Re: where to get the texbook (Hans Petter Fasteng)
  Suggestions for a 486 PCI Motherboard (Steven M. Henry)
  Re: How to use a host as a router - READ THIS (Alan Cox)
  Re: DVI and apsfilter 2-3 help. (Stephen Gourdie)
  Re: TI486DCL (Marten Liebster)
  Re: New Linux Distribution (S. Lee)
  Re: SCO WordPerfect: does it run on Linux? (Marc Fraioli)
  Re: Hmmm (Jussi Rosti)
  Re: free unix software (Rick Reilly)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Steve Dunham)
Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution
Date: 30 Sep 1994 13:40:52 GMT

Juana Moreno ([email-masked]) wrote:
:       - Defaults to SINGLE USER mode. No need to show the complications
:               of multiuser accounts to newbies who will likely use it
:               personally.

Bad idea. Newbie's shouldn't have root access.

:       - Only enough utilities to match the functionality of the DOS
:               standard utilities plus the major unix winners like 
:               grep, awk and sed. (But not vi or emacs!!!).

Bad idea.  The standard unix suite doesn't take up that much space,
and it is very powerfull. Newbie's might not use them, but
installation scripts &c for newbies might.

ALWAYS INCLUDE `vi' WITH UNIX.  I don't like `vi'; but I know how to
use it, and I know that it comes with every unix.  When the newbie
screws up his computer, the expert friend who fixes everything will
expect vi to be there.

:       - NO NETWORKING, except for maybe a terminal program (minicom) and
:               a mostly configured SLIP (client side only). In that case,
:               maybe Mosaic should be also included.

People want Internet connectivity.  It's comming with the next Windoze
and OS/2.

:       -NO SCSI. Most home dos-win users don't even know what SCSI is.

Most home dos-win users are buying these `Multimedia' SX's which come
with SCSI CD-ROM's.

:       -XFree 3.1 configured to use the VGA16 server (mono or color) with
:               a generic (low resolution) Xconfig.

Bad idea. Make VGA16 default and then have a config program that
allows them to change it.

:       - Only one window manager: FVWM

olvwm is nice...  maybe even gwm would be appropriate, with a little
bit of work you could make it look and function exactly like windoze
(not that anybody would want to...).

:       - No developing tools.

You might want to include cpp.  It is used by a lot of programs like X
and raytracers...(and maybe installation scripts).

Definitely offer a seperate set of developer disks.

:       - The binaries should fit (gzipped) in 10 1.44 floppies.

: Well, that's my idea. I'd like to hear comments before I start packaging 
: everything, because if you think this is useless I'd like to know before
: I waste my time. All suggestions will be appreciated.

I think there is more usefull stuff that you can do.  Can you code?
Some nice installation programs would be nice.  Ones that run on both
an X screen and tty.  Things that are needed:

        * X windows setup program.  Video mode &c.
        * GUI-based Administration program - I think AT&T has developed
        one of these as part of its OpenLook system; you might want to
        take a look.
        * WYSIWIG front end for LaTeX (or ptroff). - would be a big
        project though.

An easy to install Linux would be nice; but try not to cut back too
far on the the utilities &c that are considered `standard unix'.

Steve
[email-masked]

------------------------------

From: hedley@metro (Mark Hedley)
Subject: Re: 256 colors on laptop X
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 03:42:01 GMT

Are there any laptops that can run XFree 3.x (when available) with MORE
than 256 colours?

Mark

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Erik Troan)
Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 14:55:20 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Juana Moreno <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>I did not change my mind about keeping the distribution tiny, stripping
>many Unix utilities. Even if the distribution looks similar to WinDos it
>won't be. Even with only enough utilities to match Microsoft's ones users
>will have the following advantages:
>
>       - Nonpropietary formats in data files. I started hating Microsoft
>products the first time I wanted to edit the data I stored using CARDFILE.EXE

DOS users don't care about this. As long as their cardfile utility can read
their cardfile, they win. With OLE, this is becoming even less of an issue in
the Windows world.

>       - Powerful shell scripting. I do not want to prevent users to use it,
>I just want to make it easier for them. One of the points of the .BAT->.sh
>translator is that users will be able to look at the .sh output and learn
>the basic .sh commands that way. And it seems so easy to make!

If you don't include many of the Unix utilities, you're not including a
powerful scripting shell. Shells have essentially no usefull abilities
apart from running other programs. Besdides, if your target audience needs
a .BAT->.sh convertor, do you think they'll bother learning to program sh
directly?

>       - No stupid limits on resources or size of files to edit. Reliable
>crash protection. No stupid limits on command lines. Reliable virtual memory.
>32bit disk and memory access without hassles and in general a much better
>handling of the (supported) hardware.

This sounds like an ad for Chicago (or Windows '95 or whatever it is now).

>       - Powerful automation of tasks via batch and cron. For example, running
>updatedb every night beats the fastest DosWin file finder by orders of
>magnitude.

>       - Freedom from the 8.3 constraint.

See the Chicago comment.

>       - Multiple virtual consoles (I never thought of not having them, Erik)

Good. Sorry I misunderstood you.

>       - Multiple users. OK, I changed my mind on this one, mainly because
>I realized that accounts make it easy to have different background bitmaps
>for different moods :-) I really don't buy the claim that having root
>access is dangerous since DosWin users have root access all the time. It's
>not that bad, it just demystifies the unix sysadmin work.

DOS doesn't have "rm -rf /". Those 8 little letters can ruin your day. Unix
gives power, and it's a good idea to keep the safety mechanisms if you're
going to keep the power.

>       - Dos-like and Windows-like utilities
>       - Grep, awk, sed, bash

If you want real scripting, don't forget uniq, sort, cut, and tr at a minimum.

>       - Slip client and Mosaic
>       - Dosemu and ( later ) Wine

Good luck with getting Dosemu configured. Isn't everything for it compiled
in or controlled by an arcane configuration file?

>       - Ghostscript

I seriously doubt this would really be necessary. It's takes a lot of disk 
space.

>I haven't decided yet about the applets that I'll include, so I am open to
>more suggestions. I don't have a complete list of Windows equivalents, so
>please help me with that. I feel there is a need to have a distribution like
>the Windows Introductory Trial distribution I am proposing. Repartitioning and
>filling 50M of your disk is just too much to try Linux. And the problem with
>installing just the "a" series of Slackware is that you get a lot of utilities
>that you will never use while others (like Xfm and dosemu) are missing.
>So thanks to all of you who made suggestions. I'd like to have more.

What about development stuff, and how are you going to configure X?

Have you ever looked at MCC? Please do before you get to far. MCC is old
and it could stand some updating. I think combining MCC, TinyX, fancy
installation scripts, and UMSDOS would be a definite winner. I've been
wanting someone to do that for a long time now. Take a look at the
ConfigXF86 package as well - it's not optimal, but it's a lot better
a newbie then editing XConfigs.

When I installed MCC the first time I added TinyX and had a complete Unix
system in about 17MB of disk space - that's with kernel sources, a C
compilerm and networking.

Before you run off and create a new distribution, please look at what others
have done - a lot of thought were put into both MCC and TinyX and they
are both pretty well done. You might help more newbies by:

1) Writing a good sysadm shell. Look sat IBM's "smit" for an example. Smit
   is the only good thing about AIX.
2) Write a easy to use configuration program for DOSEMU.
3) Figure out a better way of configuring X. A program that would detect
   what kind of video card you have would be a good start.

Doing WIT could be very bad for Linux if it isn't done right, so please be
carefull. I don't know why you don't want to include full *client* side
networking if you're going to include SLIP. It's much easier to setup
a Unix box as a telnet client then make SLIP do anything. You're also
ignoring term completely.

Erik

-- 
===========================================================================
"I'm not like that -- except when I am"   [email-masked]  = Erik Troan
                                          [email-masked]
    - Nora from "Pump up the Volume"

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution
Date: 28 Sep 1994 18:06:51 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

[email-masked] (Juana Moreno) writes:

I wouldn't use it, but I think this is a good idea overall.  A few
comments:

>       - Defaults to SINGLE USER mode. No need to show the complications
>               of multiuser accounts to newbies who will likely use it
>               personally.

Dangerous -- at the very least, have two users -- root and a "Joe
User" account, like NeXT shipped with.  You can auto-login the regular
user and have him/her su to do sysadmin stuff.

>       - NO NETWORKING, except for maybe a terminal program (minicom) and
>               a mostly configured SLIP (client side only). In that case,
>               maybe Mosaic should be also included.

Mosaic is a must if you include slip -- it would also make a good
browser for local help files (ala Windows Help?).

>       -NO SCSI. Most home dos-win users don't even know what SCSI is.

No reason to screw people who do have a SCSI disk -- it wouldn't be
hard to probe for this & install a kernel with SCSI drivers if
necessary.

>       - Utilities to match the standard Windows applets:

Xfig is nice.

>       - No developing tools.

Hmm.  If people think they're getting a Unix-compatible system, they
might be a bit upset confused when someone gives them a nifty program
& they can't compile it.  Similarly, I'm not sure that it would be a
good idea to leave out any of the standard unix commands.
-- 
Thomas Insel ([email-masked])
  "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve it
   through not dying." -- Woody Allen

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Hans Petter Fasteng)
Subject: Re: where to get the texbook
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 16:07:09 GMT

Charles Blair ([email-masked]) wrote:
:    CAUTION Neither the book by Knuth nor the book by Lamport describes
: the texinfo system used by GNU, although both are interesting for their
: own sake.  I would suggest looking through whatever documentation 
: prep.ai.mit.edu has on info and texinfo first.

  thank you all for your help, strange that it is not anny doc with tex
latex or texinfo distributions since all other GNU software is so well
documented.  I will look around and see what I find.

Thanks to all of you

-hans

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Steven M. Henry)
Subject: Suggestions for a 486 PCI Motherboard
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 09:26:53

I am in the market to upgrade my computer and want to purchase a 486 PCI 
motherboard that will give me good performance and will be compatible with 
Linux. Please email me or post any replies.

I will post a summary of the responses.

Thanks,
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.admin,alt.uu.comp.os.linux.questions
From: [email-masked] (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: How to use a host as a router - READ THIS
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:18:01 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Frank van Maarseveen) writes:
>This was done in order to route something across the same physical network
>without the need for an extra adapter. The second "virtual" adapter was
>referred to as le0:1, the ":1" part appended to the original adapter name.
>Though a bit unusual, there's nothing wrong with this I think.
>I suppose there are no plans yet for implementing this feature in linux.

If Solaris takes the 4.4 BSD route it has a linked list of addresses for
each address family. This worries me for performance reasons. Linux can
happily do what you want with the dummy inteface (and you can add more
dummy interfaces 8)).

        ifconfig dummy  my.other.addr.ess up
        arp -s my.other.addr.ess MY:ET:HE:RN:ET:NM 

Alan

-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  [email-masked]   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`----------------------------'`----------------------------''

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Gourdie)
Subject: Re: DVI and apsfilter 2-3 help.
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 09:20:38 GMT

Carlos Dominguez ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Has anyone been able to get apsfilter-2.3 that came as a package with
: slackware 2.0 to print DVI files? The docs mention both dvi2ps and dvips,

The problem is not with apsfilter but with a command 'file' that is called
buy this filter.   'file' uses a file '/etc/magic' to recognise file types.

The '/etc/magic' supplied with Slackware2.0, and probably other distributions,
is not set up correctly to recognise DVI files.

So, open '/etc/magic' to edit and change the DVI entry to the following:

# magic.tex:
#
# XXX - needs byte-endian stuff (big-endian and little-endian DVI?)
#
0       short   0x2f7   DVI File
>16     string  >\0     (%s)
0       short   0173531 Packed TeX Font
>4      string  >\0     (%s)
2       string  \000\022        Metafont Font Metric
>34     string  >\0     (%s)

This should cure the problem.  It did for me anyway.  

Steve

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Stephen F. Gourdie       [email-masked] (pref)
Christchurch                  [email-masked] 
New Zealand                         ph (643) 389 4332
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Marten Liebster)
Subject: Re: TI486DCL
Date: 28 Sep 1994 20:19:22 -0400

John Walton ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Has anyone ahve good/bad experiences with 486DLC processors.
: For that matter what is a 486DLC??

: Considering upgrading working 386DX.

: Thanks

I have the 486 DLC 40 Mhz with a Cryx math co-proc wired 
on board   The board has space up to 256k cache and has
room for up to 32mb of ram and there are 2 local bus slots

It is a perfectly fine machine, though I want to put a 
dx2 66 on the board

Marten

-- 
========================================
Marten M. Liebster   Please no flames for spelling,
[email-masked]    I already know I can't spell!!

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (S. Lee)
Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution
Date: 28 Sep 1994 18:17:12 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Matt Welsh <[email-masked]> wrote:
>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Juana Moreno) writes:
>>I have been thinking of putting up a new Linux distribution especially
>>oriented to DOS-Win dummies. 
>
>Please, I just ate.
>
>There are things that can be done to wean new users into the world
>of UNIX. But giving Linux a lobotomy is not the answer.

I couldn't take Juana's idea, either.  But I do have something in
mind:

Is it possible to make a "Instant DOS-installable Linux"?  What if
somebody

1) installs slackware on a Umsdos partition
2) Installs Loadlin under DOS
3) zip the whole X:\Linux and X:\Loadlin directory into LINUX.ZIP (I'm
against .tar.gz here because it is easier to get zip under DOS)

Now somebody else

4) downloads LINUX.ZIP from some DOS site
5) unzip it
6) runs an installation program which selects the right kernel, maybe
setup a few files like loadlin, /etc/fstab and Xconfig, and moves the
files into the correct places
7) run loadlin

Whoa! Instant Linux!

Admittedly this would be slower than a Linux running under ext2, but
the installation would be less scary to the new user because
everything is done under DOS up until the last step, where they type
in a command and find themselves get right into Linux.  And it is
totally uninstallable, too - just delete the whole X:\Linux tree.

Now I'm very satisfied with my native Linux system, so no need to
flame me, this is just one of those interesting thoughts that have
been nagging me for quite a while.

I'd like to know if somebody has tried this.  Or, any reason why this
can/cannot be done would be interesting.

Stephen
[email-masked]
Witty .sig under construction.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Marc Fraioli)
Subject: Re: SCO WordPerfect: does it run on Linux?
Date: 30 Sep 1994 15:11:32 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In article [email-masked],  [email-masked] (Mark A. Davis) writes:
>[email-masked] (Marc Fraioli) writes:
>> Due to my constant exposure to it and great
>>hatred for it, I am afraid you will be unable to convince me of its 
>
>Not sure why you would HATE it....
>
Perhaps I should enumerate some of the reasons:

 1.  Printing requires a separate suid root daemon with its own
 configuration program.  Why can't they just print through lpd
 like everyone else?

 2.  Although the program is nominally X/Motif (it creates a window,
 has pull-down menus, etc.), it is still basically a text program.
 It is clearly text-oriented.  For example, choosing "load" from
 the file menu results in WP's text file load screen taking over
 the window from the document, just like it does under DOS.  No
 Motif filebox.  This shows more laziness than anything else,
 I suspect, but it still blows.

 3.  It crashes.  A lot.  Usually just locks up, but sometimes the 
 window dies while the process stays behind.  When this happens
 (once a week, with heavy use) the process is somehow unkillable. The only way
 to get rid of it is to reboot.  And you'd better do that, too,
 since if you don't, and try to start a new instance of WP, odds
 are 50-50 that the whole OS will crash, right down to the PROM
 monitor.  Only piece of user-space code I've ever seen which can
 crash Ultrix.  I suspect the suid root piece must have something
 to do with this.

 4.  Strange screen effects.  The scrollbars don't work right.  They
 don't show your correct relative position in the document, and you
 can't scroll all the way to the bottom of the document.  You get
 about 85% of the way there, and suddenly the document jumps back
 to about 50%.

  There are many more, but these are sufficient to damn it internally
in my mind. 

>>non-existence (although I wish it were so).  5.1-X is not too bad, but
>>it is not available for Ultrix, which is what I have on my desk at work.
>
>Time to change OS's?  Maybe you could run the newer version remotely....
>or, if for some reason you hate WP, not just the DEC 5.0 version, then
>use something else.... $$$$ Framemaker,  Island Write,  On-Go,  Applixware...
>
This is difficult for me to do, as my employer doesn't authorize me
to spend any money.  At any rate, I don't want to bring this horrible
beast home to my Linux box.  Note though, that I am aware that 5.1 on
SunOS 4.1.3 is dramatically better, although still not perfect.

---
Marc Fraioli          | "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist- " 
[email-masked]         |    - Last words of Union General John Sedgwick,
                      |    Battle of Spotsylvania Court House, U.S. Civil War

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Jussi Rosti)
Crossposted-To: alt.fan.linus-torvalds
Subject: Re: Hmmm
Date: 30 Sep 1994 08:14:12 +0200

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Mitchum DSouza) writes:

>Hey I'm a fan. Have been so since 0.10. Im sure everyone else joined a bit more
>recently. 

Oh boy, you're real tough guy!  What a forerunner!

-- 
________________________________________________________________________
[email-masked]                  http://www.helsinki.fi/~jrosti/

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Rick Reilly)
Subject: Re: free unix software
Date: 30 Sep 1994 15:10:52 GMT

I am looking for free software which I can compile and/or run on linux.
The packages I am interested in are CAD, speadsheets, and word processors.
Applications running under X are preferred.  I would appreciate either the
location of a particular package or a site containing many packages.

------------------------------

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