Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #864
From: Digestifier <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 94 06:13:08 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #864, Volume #2                 Sun, 2 Oct 94 06:13:08 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Is Linux faster than Os/2? Please help. (Bill C. Riemers)
  Re: SCO WordPerfect: does it run on Linux? (root)
  Re: Maple V for Linux (Steve Weibel)
  Re: P5-90 MHz beats SGI R4000-100MHz. (Andreas Busse)
  Re: Beers for Linus (was: Contrib. $s for Linux Dev) (Adam J. Richter)
  Autoanswer modem (Robert Willett)
  Re: New Linux Distribution (Curtis L. Olson)
  Re: free unix software (Spencer PriceNash)
  Re: New Linux Distribution (Mats 'MaDsen' Wikholm)
  Re: NEED: ISA IDE Controller Card (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR)
  Re: 3D graphics software. (Anthony W. Kay)
  Re: 56.6 Kb simulated with 2 28.8Kb modems. Is it possible? (Tony Peterman)
  Re: Source copyable software is better than artificial life (C. Titus Brown)
  Re: Maple V for Linux (Stephen Vance)
  Re: Linux at large sites? (Andres Grino Brandt)
  Re: Autoanswer modem (Alan Osborne)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Bill C. Riemers)
Subject: Re: Is Linux faster than Os/2? Please help.
Date: 29 Sep 1994 18:30:42 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>>>> "A" == A Rohde <[email-masked]> writes:

    A> A. Rohde ([email-masked]) wrote: : I use a
    A> standalone Linux Slackware 2.0.0.  : I have an 'optimised'
    A> kernel (no drivers for things I don't have compiled in), : run
    A> 4 getty's, use tvtwm (eats a little bit more RAM than fvwm) and
    A> rxvt.  : When I start X11 on my 8MB system (one rxvt running),
    A> I have 4.2 MB free : (free+buffers, swap is 0). A 'default'
    A> window-manager is unknown to me. I think : Robert is talking
    A> about olvwm. olvmw (and the libraries it has to use) wastes ca.
    A> : 1.3 MB RAM. Robert you don't know what your talking
    A> about. You did not spent any : time in configuring Linux.

    >> Funny, I thought I did. I built a new kernel throwing out
    >> support for all the stuff I don't need, played with tvtwm
    >> (which was even more of a hog than olvwm)
    A> tvtwm is NEVER such a hog as ol(v)wm.

Last I checked "fvwm" uses the least amount of memory.  But software
changes...  Has anyone done recent tests to findout:
        1. Which is fastest.
        2. Which uses the least memory.
        3. Which has the most options.

I think the reason olvwm is default with Slackware, is that it is a
more familiar environment previous SunOS users than "fvwm".  Although
with alittle configuration, the only way you can tell the difference
is those extra "fvwm" features that you won't be able to resist using.
I like being able to do all window management functions from
"GoodStuff" buttons, instead of silley little menus.

    >> Since you're such an expert: Can disk buffers shrink to 0 or is
    >> there a minimum size for them?
    A> I think, that the cache algorhithms of the Linux-kernel are the
    A> best I've ever seen. The code is better even than the cache
    A> system of Solaris 2.3 (Sparc) (perhaps, Sun's cache is
    A> configureable....). I use the cache, and perhaps it was written
    A> by people who use it. I use applications that read and write
    A> hundreds of kilobytes from the cache buffer instead of the
    A> harddisk. For example the size of gcc + cpp + make + sh +... is
    A> much larger than 1MB. If you compile large programs, you have
    A> to write lots of temporary files and to link libraries.  You
    A> can mount a ext2 filesystem syncronously, that means, there's
    A> no write behind cache (is the any cache than?). Do this if you
    A> want to slow down your box.  I use OS/2. IBM installs the cache
    A> with a minimum, fixed size. If I use IBM's defaults I have to
    A> wait ****5 times***** longer for a compilation of unzip tahn
    A> under Linux. If I set the cache to 1.5 MB, I have to wait two
    A> times longer.  OS/2's cache is not well designed at all.

I have to agree here.  

    >> Can I specify that I want to shrink disk buffers before I start
    >> swapping out unused (in this case presumably getty) processes
    >> in favor of maintaining larger disk buffers which I don't use?
    A> I think, that Linus and all the other people ( *you* said:
    A> "Since you're such an expert...") do extremely good work. If
    A> you can't share my opinion, *you* should rewrite the kernel
    A> code......

I think it was a fair question.  But the answer is, no you can't
specify that directly; mainly because no sane person would want to.
While the swapping/cache algorithms are not perfect, they are
normally much smarter than the user in desiding whether to reduce
the buffer size or swap programs.  The only reason you don't seem
to think so, is the buffer use is so transparent, that you only
notice it missing when you manually deactivate it with ext2fs
or such.  (This can be done on a per directory of a per file
basis.  Try reading the ext2fs documentation.)  I recommend you try:

 "su -c 'chattr -R +S /'"

Then after awhile switch back with:

  "su -c 'chattr -R -S /'"

I'm sure you'll notice the difference!!!

                           Bill

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (root)
Subject: Re: SCO WordPerfect: does it run on Linux?
Date: 29 Sep 1994 21:13:27 GMT

[SNIP!!!]

I have SCO Wordperfect 5.1 runing on my machine.  486/66 32meg ram
500Meg drive.  ATI vesa card.  Linux 1.1.42 and Xfree 2.1
It runs fast! and other than printing, (which works but is stupid), 
it works great.   

I heard that 6.0 is being tested.  Will be intersted in seeing how 6.0 
works.  Hope it works under Linux as well.

I am trying to get time to put out my notes on installing 5.1 under Linux
in the next few days.  Robert

                            [email-masked]
                            [email-masked]

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Steve Weibel)
Subject: Re: Maple V for Linux
Date: 29 Sep 1994 18:54:01 GMT

DAVID L. JOHNSON ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Tony Galway) writes:

    [text deleted]

: Please don't suggest that, simply because they don't run some high-powered 
: license manager, that we should consider violating the license agreement and run 
: it in multi-user environments with a single-user license.  More than this one
: program is on the line with that; since if vendors believe that their software
: will be pirated wholesale under linux, they won't release it, and linux will 
: never become accepted in a broader community.  You don't want to have to 
: deal with a license manager on your PC.

Agreed.  Piracy will only hurt us all at this stage of the game.  Perhaps the
approach should be to diplomatically apply some pressure on Waterloo to
release a student version for Linux.  Given the demographics of Linux's
user base, such a version would probably be enormously successful (relative
to the number of people who use Linux).  Also it seems, from recent experiences
that I've had helping people set up systems, that Linux is taking off in the
laboratory environment.  Certainly there will still be a market for their
original product.  In any case, this is definitely a good start.  For many of
us, a product like Maple is the most useful piece of software we could buy.
We just need to convince Waterloo that there is a legion of us out here who
would buy it in a minute if it were a bit more affordable.  The same remarks
can be made about Matlab (if a version for Linux were ever released).  
 
: -- 

: David L. Johnson                      [email-masked] or 
: Department of Mathematics             [email-masked]
: Lehigh University
: 14 E. Packer Avenue                   (610) 758-3759
: Bethlehem, PA 18015-3174              (610) 828-3708

- Steve Weibel

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Andreas Busse)
Subject: Re: P5-90 MHz beats SGI R4000-100MHz.
Date: 29 Sep 1994 08:07:28 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Robert Stockmann) writes:
|> In <[email-masked]>, Larry Pyeatt ([email-masked]) wrote:
|> [stuff deleted]
|> Ok the demo which was installed was alright, but this machine is in practice
|> a failure....
|> 
|> Robert Stockmann
|> [email-masked]
|> 
|> He your email adress is not valid! Ever tried to set up some intelligent
|> networking (e.g. sub netting) from within the sysadmin X program on a Indy?
|> it doesn't work. So I had to use a normal xterm and vi and some tough hacking
|> in those over 500 lines long corrupted scripts (My Linux experience helped
|> me out) to get it going...IRIX is certainly not my favorit UNIX...

Running an Indigo with 16 Megs is just like driving a Porsche
with an engine of a VW Bug. Put some more ram into this poor box
and you *will* have a fast machine. What you do is just like
running Linux on a P-90 with 4 Megs. Would you then say that Linux
is a slow and bad OS and that a P-90 is slower than a 68008/8 ???
Regarding the network stuff: I don't know which OS you're running
but you should try Irix 5.2 before blaming SGI. 

Andy

==========================================================
Andreas Busse                      | [email-masked]
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Dep. | Phone: +49 2636-80294
Neustrasse 9-12, D-53498 Waldorf   | Fax:   +49 2636-80188
==========================================================
      >> Windws is ine for bckgroun comunicaions <<

------------------------------

From: adam@adam (Adam J. Richter)
Subject: Re: Beers for Linus (was: Contrib. $s for Linux Dev)
Date: 1 Oct 1994 19:40:16 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Anselm Lingnau  <[email-masked]> wrote:
>Actually, shouldn't we be sending root beer (yuck) since this is
>presumably what the super-users drink?

        There is a brand of root beer around here called "Hires root
beer."  It must be for super-users with nice monitors.

-- 
Adam J. Richter                           Yggdrasil Computing, Incorporated
(408) 261-6630                            "Free Software For The Rest of Us."

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Robert Willett)
Subject: Autoanswer modem
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 19:41:59 +0000

I've got a cheapy modem, a Dynalink V1414VQE. It works fine, I have no
problems apart from I can't get the thing to auto-answer. The manual says
that all I do is write ATS0=1 and then it will all work. I do this, I even
write it back to the configuration RAM, the Auto Answer LED comes on
and it won't work.

I don't believe that it's my modem as it works fine receiving Faxes 
under Windows. I'm not an expert on modems (or anything else for that matter)
and so do not know if I need to pull DTR high or low or whatever arcane
chantings need to be done. I'm sure that it is pretty simple but none of the
doc or FAQs seem to help. 

If people want to mail directly to me I'll sumarise and then post back 
to the person who maintains the FAQs for inclusion. Nuff said.

Thanks.
-- 
Robert Willett
============================================================
"Life is too short to spend on the Internet"

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Curtis L. Olson)
Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 03:23:10 GMT

[email-masked] (Juana Moreno) writes:

>I have been thinking of putting up a new Linux distribution especially
>oriented to DOS-Win dummies. I have taken a nontraditional approach and
>am willing to sacrifice many of the sacred cows of Unix. 
>       - Defaults to SINGLE USER mode. No need to show the complications
>               of multiuser accounts to newbies who will likely use it
>               personally.
>       - Only one shell: bash, with lots of aliases that match as closely
>               as possible the COMMAND.COM commands and the utilities in
>               the DOS directory. Maybe it won't be very difficult to 
>               include a .BAT->.sh translator.
>       - Only enough utilities to match the functionality of the DOS
>               standard utilities plus the major unix winners like 
>               grep, awk and sed. (But not vi or emacs!!!).
>       - NO NETWORKING, except for maybe a terminal program (minicom) and
>               a mostly configured SLIP (client side only). In that case,
>               maybe Mosaic should be also included.
>       -NO SCSI. Most home dos-win users don't even know what SCSI is.
>       -XFree 3.1 configured to use the VGA16 server (mono or color) with
>               a generic (low resolution) Xconfig.
>       - No developing tools.
>       - The binaries should fit (gzipped) in 10 1.44 floppies.

>Well, that's my idea. I'd like to hear comments before I start packaging 
>everything, because if you think this is useless I'd like to know before
>I waste my time. All suggestions will be appreciated.

Actually there would probably be a demand out there for those who keep
hearing about this Linux thing, and want to check it out at minimal expense.
You may have mentioned this already, and I may have just deleted it or 
forgot, but you could consider building upon the UMSDOS stuff for a file
system and use loadlin to boot from dos.

Let me think, what other features could you add????  How about:
        - Hard code a 640K memory limit into the kernel :)
        - Eliminate that pesky little -r option from the rm command
        - I've found cp, but where is xcp?
        - ????????.???
        - make sure and run this little script from rc.local (psuedo-code)
              while ( true ) {
                  sleep random(2hrs)
                  shutdown -h now
              }

Please don't take me too seriously ... my point is:  making a 
distribution that is within the ability of the average dos/mac 
weenie to understand is probably a good thing, but don't try too 
hard to cripple it.

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson             Phone: (612) 626-9800            [email-masked]
                                                                     .
Try Linux ...                                                    \__[0]__/

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Spencer PriceNash)
Subject: Re: free unix software
Date: 1 Oct 1994 16:06:02 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
Rick Reilly <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I am looking for free software which I can compile and/or run on linux.
>The packages I am interested in are CAD, speadsheets, and word processors.
>Applications running under X are preferred.  I would appreciate either the
>location of a particular package or a site containing many packages.

"appropos spreadsheet" shows me sc and xspread, two spreadsheets
that run on my Linux system (Slackware 2.0 distribution).  xspread
was distributed with X.

A word processor (ugh) might run under the iBCS package.  I'd
recommend learning TeX and LaTeX and ghostscript/postscript.

I dunno about CAD software.
-- 
Spencer PriceNash   [email-masked]   [email-masked]
Dan Quayle via anon ftp: Quotes at umcc.umich.edu in pub/users/quayle, GIFs
and sound files at vaxa.crc.mssm.edu in quayle/gif and quayle/sound.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Mats 'MaDsen' Wikholm)
Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 20:33:10 GMT

>Juana Moreno ([email-masked]) wrote:
>:      - Defaults to SINGLE USER mode. No need to show the complications
>:      - Only enough utilities to match the functionality of the DOS
>:      - NO NETWORKING, except for maybe a terminal program (minicom) and
>:      -NO SCSI. Most home dos-win users don't even know what SCSI is.
>:      -XFree 3.1 configured to use the VGA16 server (mono or color) with
>:      - Only one window manager: FVWM
>:      - No developing tools.
>:      - The binaries should fit (gzipped) in 10 1.44 floppies.

        This  sound like a braindamaged  WinDos (like if something can
be more braindamaged) and I guess that's your intetnion.

        I've  got  one question though.  What's  Gates  paying you for
ruining Linux in the eyes of potential users,  so that they will stick
to WinDose? :)

-- 
 . . . .  [email-masked]   /   frantzgatan 3 E 25
  . . .  @358.(9)21.377.363    /   20380 åbo  finland
   . .  Linux, the way to get rid of boot viruses  
    .  <a href="http://at8.abo.fi/~mwikholm">my homepage</a> 

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
From: [email-masked] (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR)
Subject: Re: NEED: ISA IDE Controller Card
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 04:23:17 GMT

Jiann-Ming Su ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Can anybody recommend a good 16bit ISA IDE HDD controller card that 
: supports 2 HDD and 2 Floppies?  I'm currently using some cheap
: controller with Win??? chips in it.  This particular one is pretty slow.
: I had a cheap Identity one but that burned out.  Then I got another 
: Win?? controller.  That one was faster than the old one, but the
: mouse port didn't work.  Now I'm back to the old slow one.
: Please give approximate price, also.  Thanks.

Just about any 12 to 19 dollar all-in-one I/O card will do what you
want... if you have VESA it'll cost a couple bucks more.

--
"Linux!     Guerrilla UNIX Development     Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus."
============================================================
Mark A. Horton       ka4ybr             [email-masked]
P.O. Box 747 Decatur GA US 30031-0747         [email-masked]
+1.404.371.0291                     33 45 31 N / 084 16 59 W

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Anthony W. Kay)
Subject: Re: 3D graphics software.
Date: 1 Oct 1994 14:08:55 -0700

Chiu David Kwai-On ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Is there any 3D graphics software works under linux? I'll very much
: appreciate if someone can tell me the ftp site.

You can find povray at sunsite.unc.edu. It's a pretty good ray-tracer.
There is also a package called Radiance that I got to compile
under Linux, although it is more of a scientific tool for 
radiance measurements (and thus runs slower), it does make pretty
pictures. I found it at hobbes.lbl.gov.

                   -Tony

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Tony Peterman)
Subject: Re: 56.6 Kb simulated with 2 28.8Kb modems. Is it possible?
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 03:07:50 GMT

> Juana Moreno ([email-masked]) wrote:
> I just had this idea. There must be a way to simulate a 56.6 Kb connection
> without the need unconventional equipment (from the home user point of view,
> I mean). May be with just 2 28.8 modems connected to 2 regular phone lines and
> some smart low level packet routing ( choosing for a packet the least busy 
> line) it has to be possible.

This sounds pretty cool. The currently do this with netblazers. there are
definantly some problems that could be encountered, such as line noise, and
packet regeneration.

If you are interested in pursueing this, I would be interested in working on 
this.

Tony
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Automata Consulting                      | P.O. Box 260798
Specializing in Network Development.     | Plano, Tx. 75023-0798
Unix/C/C++                               | (214)532-6063
Unix Internals                           | [email-masked]
_________________________________________|_____________________________________

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (C. Titus Brown)
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.tcl,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.lang.perl,comp.lang.python,comp.ai.alife
Subject: Re: Source copyable software is better than artificial life
Date: 2 Oct 1994 06:10:36 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Aaron Watters <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I don't know a lot about this artificial life stuff
>-- but I'm suspicious of anything Newsweek gets goofy about

When did Newsweek get goofy about it?  I'd be interested in seeing how
inaccurate they are :).

>-- and I suspect its primary use is as another money extraction tool
>to be applied by ai labs to the department of defense
>(and more power to 'em).

Funny.  I didn't realize that many AI labs were DOING AL stuff... Not
to mention that the DOD isn't too enamored of anything as long-shotish
as AL (IMHO, that is).  They're probably more interested in the immediate
optimization strategies, which HAVE been proven beneficial.

>Nevertheless in wondering why free software is so good these days
>it occured to me that the propagation of free software is one gigantic
>artificial life evolution experiment, but the metaphor isn't perfect.
>
>Programs are thrown out into the harsh environment, and the bad ones
>die.  The good ones adapt rapidly and become very robust in short
>order.

Right, selection & adaptation...

>The only problem with the metaphor is that the process isn't random
>at all.  Python _chooses_ to include tk's genes;  Linux decides
>to make itself more suitable for symbiosis with X, etcetera. 

So?  They're intelligent agents, as well as evolving ones.  Clearly, whether
or not they succeed depends on both the intelligence of the choice they made,
and the luck of the draw - if Tk succeeds, then they're lucky, but if Tk
doesn't succeed, they're unlucky.  (In the sense of the Beta/VHS thing,
where something can't be decided on technical merits)

>Free software is artificial life, but better.

No, just AL with learning...

Cheers,
--titus

(Interesting comparison, BTW :)
-- 
C. Titus Brown <- http://www.krl.caltech.edu/~brown/plan.html -> [email-masked]
    --> GCS/GSS:@d--,-p+,c++++,l,u(++),e+,m+,s+/,n+,h+,f+,g+,w+,t-,r-,y? <--
            Sysadmin at Caltech KRL / Guest sysadmin at Reed College
               Member of the Avida Artificial Life research group

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Vance)
Subject: Re: Maple V for Linux
Date: 30 Sep 1994 11:11:35 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Ray Hann) writes:
>
>Isn't windows for workgroups multi-user? I know NT is definitely multi-user.

Neither of these is really true.  MS calls them multi-user because they
allow multiple users to log into the *disk storage*.  However, neither
allows multiple login *sessions* on a single machine.

Steve

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Andres Grino Brandt)
Subject: Re: Linux at large sites?
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 22:14:32 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
David Lemson <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I flipped through the FAQ's but could not find an answer to this
>question:
>Does anyone use Linux for a 'large site'?  I am talking about an
>e-mail server (POP server, SMTP server, people logging in to read
>mail) for about 500-1000 people?  How many concurrent connections
>can one expect to have on a high-end Pentium with Linux?  Is there a
>hard limit in the kernel that cannot be bypassed?

Well, we use Linux running in a IBM PS/Value Point 325T. It serve as a 
Internet Gateway for a collection of Novell Netware (almost 400 users) and
as a SMTP mail distributor.

Our connection is very new, and we don't expect more than 20 or 30 users
at time going to Internet thru the Linux (acting only as a IP router).

The SMTP is another history. We have MS-Mail for Windows for Novell users
and All-in-One in the Vaxes. The MS-Mail SMTP Gateway interchange mail with
the Vaxes using Linux's services. Linux serves as a mail gateway with
Internet too. 

Yours

-- 
Andres Grino Brandt                                            Casilla 14801
[email-masked]                                          Santiago 21 - Chile
* Ley Grino de la Economia: Todo tiene su costo, y alguien tiene que pagarlo *
        * Everything has a cost and someone must pay for it *

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Alan Osborne)
Subject: Re: Autoanswer modem
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 21:11:23 +0000

Robert Willett ([email-masked]) wrote:

: I don't believe that it's my modem as it works fine receiving Faxes 
: under Windows. I'm not an expert on modems (or anything else for that matter)

What getty are you using?  And I know it may be obvious but are you
using /dev/cua? for outgoing and /dev/ttyS? for incoming as you
should be?

-- 
AlanO

------------------------------

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End of Linux-Misc Digest
******************************