Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #940
From: Digestifier <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 21:13:31 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #940, Volume #2                Fri, 14 Oct 94 21:13:31 EDT

Contents:
  Re: What is Linux good for? (Daniel Woodard)
  Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (READ THIS!) (Byron A Jeff)
  Comments about the Linux WP idea ([email-masked])
  Re: Nailed down to 386bsd or linux, now which one? (Lennart Augustsson)
  Re: What is Linux good for? (Steven Buytaert)
  Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (Thomas Petersen)
  Re: Yggdrasil Fall 1994: buyers be aware (Roger Bicknell)
  Re: What is Linux good for? (Dan Newcombe)
  Re: [INFO WANTED] C/SLIP vs. PPP (Harmon Seaver)
  Re: transparent ftp filesystem? (Harald Milz)
  Re: Linux & Windows... (DAVID L. JOHNSON)
  Re: ez (was Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux?) (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: Does all SCO software run on Linux (Scott Weinstein)
  Re: Lilo booting last booted OS. (Rasquin Jean-Pierre)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Daniel Woodard)
Subject: Re: What is Linux good for?
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:50:43 GMT

>FAQ??? They even don't check the name of the group on which they are
  That's an outright lie.  I looked for a faq.  Not finding one, I posted 
this message.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (READ THIS!)
Date: 14 Oct 1994 15:51:57 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Gareth Webber <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I am sorry but what is wrong with using the iBCS module and running SCO 
>wordperfect. In fact iBCS currently allows linux to run binaries from
>lots of other intel unices with work on *BSD being made as we speak.

Because of the audience. Typical conversation.

(NU: Newbie User, LE: Linux Enthusiast)

Senario after a brand new Linux installation on NU machine.

LE: See. With Linux you can have multiple users, multiple tasks, all at the
    same time.
NU: Ok where is the Wordprocessor?
LE: Well all I have to do is get the IBSC2 package and install it. It's on
    tsx-11.mit.edu. Oh Oh we don't have a net connection from here.
NU: So you mean it doesn't have a wordprocessor?
LE: No it just has to be installed. WordPerfect runs fine.
NU: Well there's a copy of Windows 6.0 Wordperfect on the DOS disk. Run that.
LE: Well I can't because Linux doesn't run windows applications.
NU: What about DOS then?
LE: Sure. The DOS emulator runs all DOS applications. But I'll have to install
    the emulator. Hmm. That's on sunsite. I can get a floppy with it tomorrow.
NU: So your telling me that Linux has no Wordprocessor unless you add something
    else that you don't have with you. It's too complicated. Take it off my
    machine.

Note that this is a paraphrased conversation I've had with a couple of
new users.

Point being that Linux does need a native wordprocessor that doesn't depend
on emulation.

>
>Linux doesn't need a WP of its own when it can be used as a base to run
>apps from all the other major opearing systems (unices, windows under wine 
>ans dos under dosemu).

Yes it does. Linux needs to have its own native apps just like all the other
systems have their own native apps. It'll run faster, requires much less
setup, and most improtantly it can be free so that it can be distributed with
the disk.

Now it doesn't have to be anything fancy. In fact I've taken a cursory look
at HWP and it's about 1/2 to being perfectly usable.

Most WP users don't use all the "kitchen sink" fancy features that most
products tout. Usually it's just formatting (centering, indentation, bullets)
and style (font type, size, and bold,italic,and underlined) along with a
simple way to specify these things. I mean anyone who can use the function
keys for WordPerfect should be thrilled with a simple Point and Click 
interface. 

How hard can it be to develop something like this? All the basic tools are
already available:

- Text editor with color highlighting (JED)
- A mouse package that can be integrated into the editor (the selection
  replacement that sends events to applications in addition to performing
  all of selection's original functions)
- Popup menu support (dialog)
- Any number of formatters. I prefer QuikScript because it compresses
  the format/reder step into one step. However TeX or nroff could be used.
- A renderer, GhostScript, that works with almost any graphics printer. 
- A previewer, GhostView/GhostScript, So that you can see what it looks like 
  before you print. Note that Ghostscript can display on a normal Linux
  console.

All this software already exist. All it really needs is a couple of
enterprising people to pull it all together into a single package.

As I have stated before I cannot by that person because I'm embroiled
(actually it feels like being broiled) in my PhD research. I'll be happy
to suggest a plan, coordinate efforts, and of course test. But as to
actually doing it as much as I'd like to I can't right now.

The above elements can be used to put together a functional product. The only
thing that's missing is any hint of WYSIWYG. For a text version this would
primarily consist of highlighting attributed text, showing some form of
indentation/centering, and most importantly when the font size/style changes
accurately showing the characters on each line and the lines on each page.

Obviously for the X version a more sophitcated product is needed. But I point
out the the EZ Wordprocessor performs many of the functions in a X environment.
It's native and freely available. However it doesn't do diddly for a virtual
console, telnet session, or a terminal session. That's why I'm suggesting that
we focus in that direction.

Comments?

BAJ
-- 
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: [email-masked]

------------------------------

From: [email-masked]
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Comments about the Linux WP idea
Date: 14 Oct 1994 21:45:50 GMT
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Byron A Jeff) writes: 
 : I think we can integrate existing editor (JED), menu(dialog), mouse(the
 : selection replacement of the Mouseless Commander), formatter (QuikScript),
 : and renderer (GhostScript) into a workable system that can meet the basic
 : wordprocessing demands of most folks.

The fundamental question is how the buffer is going to be implemented---
what will the data structure look like.  Fundamentally, a word processor and
an editor are very different.  I suspect that the best choice for a data
structure for the WP would consist of a linked list of paragraphs.  Perhaps
the paragraph should be implemented as a buffer gap. Also, how will the
character attributes be stored?  Should we store an attribute with each
character?  Should the data structure consist of a parallel stream of
attributes?  Questions like this are going to be fundamental to the
development of the WP.  I suspect that it is NOT a good idea to integrate an
existing editor into the WP.

The user interface should be fairly simple to implement.  For example,
consider my S-Lang library.  It already has routines for multiple keymaps,
keyboard tty input, Screen Managment Facility (with color), etc...  In fact,
much of JED is interfaced to this library.  The rest of JED consists of
routines to handle its representation of the buffer.  Finally, I am also
working on a Text based window library for S-Lang.  One could incorporate
this library into the WP to handle windows, Scroll bars, dialog boxes,
etc... to make it look pretty.

But, the fundamental question remains:  What will the representation of the
buffer look like?

Finally, is this project worth doing?  How well does DOSEMU run Wordperfect?
Can it run Wordperfect over a serial line?  If we ever do get a WP for Linux
off the ground and functional, will it be better than Wordperfect running
under DOSEMU over a serial line?   (I am emphasising serial line because I
would like to use something like it remotely from, e.g., a vt100)

--
     _____________
#___/John E. Davis\_________________________________________________________
#
# internet: [email-masked]
#   bitnet: davis@ohstpy
#   office: 617-735-6746
#

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Lennart Augustsson)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.386bsd.misc
Subject: Re: Nailed down to 386bsd or linux, now which one?
Date: 14 Oct 1994 16:02:30 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (bmk) writes:
>    P.S. Linux is a fine product.  I'm not slamming it; I just happen to
>    have an irrational dislike of all that is System V. :)

Irrational?  What's irrational about disliking System V. :-)

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Steven Buytaert)
Subject: Re: What is Linux good for?
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 07:40:33 GMT

Daniel Woodard ([email-masked]) wrote:
:   I found this group today.  How well does it do multitasking?  Does it run 
: under Windows or DOS?

  Maybe you could try to read *** READ THIS BEFORE POSTING *** tomorrow ?

--
Steven Buytaert 

WORK [email-masked]
HOME [email-masked]

        'Imagination is more important than knowledge.'
                        (A. Einstein)

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Thomas Petersen)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux?
Date: 14 Oct 1994 16:03:51 GMT

Miguel Alvarez Blanco ([email-masked]) wrote:

>  I won't claim that LaTeX is a good multilingual processor, but my master
> thesis was written on it, in spanish, without troubles. Sure, Hebrew, Kanji
> and lots of other languages are not there, but at least it's a step forward.

Eh? The LaTeX package I dowloaded included support for several African
languages, Gothic (a medieval rune system), Both of the Futharks,
several versions of Tolkien's alphabets, Hebrew, Georgian, a couple
of languages somebody probably just made up and God knows what else.

I challenge you to name an alphabet that doesn't have at least some
support.

>  BTW, I use vi as the editor for my LaTeX documents, so I'm probably brain
> dead myself :-)

vi, sed and awk: This is what text processing tools are supposed to 
be like! :-)

Thomas

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Roger Bicknell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Re: Yggdrasil Fall 1994: buyers be aware
Date: 14 Oct 1994 12:49:10 -0700

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Lee Crawford) writes:

>In article <[email-masked]>,
:[email-masked] (Yan Xiao) wrote:

:: 
:: We purchased Yggdrasil Fall 1994 Plug-and-Play recently,
:: and here are some of the problems we`ve encountered so far:
:: [much deleted]
:: 
:: The current yggdrasil CD is our second buy, and I can
:: see the decline in quality. I sincerely hope that folks
:: at yggdrasil keep up the spirit of Plug-'n-Play, while
:: at the same time improve quality. 
:: 
:I don't think it IS classified as experimental, do you have this from 
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:Yygdrasil, or is this your assumption because you failed to get it to work?
:If you have a memory manager in your config.sys, that could probobly 
:screw you up.  Have you stripped your config.sys down to nothing but 
:your  CD-ROM driver?

        I just purchased Yggdrasil Linux.

        (yeah... me and my sony cdu33a cdrom, and sc400 fx sound card)

        <sigh>

        Yeah, I agree, I don't think that it IS classified as "experimental."

        BTW I'm running a 486DX-33 isa, 8M ram, mach32 video, 540M ide WD,
        sc400 sound, sony cdu33a cdrom, connor 120 tape, 
        14.4k supra 32bis (external), a: is a 3.5" floppy,
        and Yggdrasil Fall'94 Linux. 

:: Next, I tried to boot Linux by using the bootflpy.phl (I have
::the LMSI CM205 CD). It recognized the CD and say "LMSI CD Ready" but then
::the boottrap program complaints about SONY CD31a and 525 and "Unable to mount
::VFS".  I got the errata, but there seems no fixes for these problems yet.

:If you have a sony 31a running off the sony driver, then you need the 
:revision B boot disk and system stuff.   Have you gotten that yet?
:(Its mentioned in the errata.)

        Yup. Been there. Done (all) that. Still, although this revB
        kernal will boot, I get a zillion complaints about read-only
        filesystem and the install aborted. <sigh>

        I've found no way to dosload it; it don't matter _what_ I do
        with my config.sys/autoexec.bat - I've tried all 5327 
        combinations ;)

        And now I'm starting to understand what movie-writer John Cleese
        (of Monty Python fame) meant when he had the protagonist in
        "Clockwise" say, "it's not the constant failure that gets me
        [down] so, it's the *hope*. That's what really slays me!"
        [sorry about the terrible paraphrase]. I've found another
        machine which will boot this Linux "plug-and-play." Now I
        can try rebuilding the kernal... oh no! there goes my Hope again!
        (as if I really had a _clue_ as to what I'm doing!)

        I haven't found any way to get the logitech busmouse to work
        yet on this 486DX-66 16M ram, mitsumi cdrom, machine (which
        _will_ boot the "plug-and-play") so I've a mountain yet to
        overcome (pro noblem, I have me spoon all ready...)

        I'm starting to think that this Linux thing is really
        "Doom II" and is the ultimate nightmare [virtual] reality
        game - AND I'M TRAPPED INSIDE!!! (thanks, I feel better now).

        Do I have a question? Uh... ok... "why me?"

        No... wait! Here's a reeeeel question:

        I downloaded the revB vmlinux from ftp.yggdrasil.com and
        RAWRITE'ed it to a floppy. I took this home and booted
        from it. It did find my sony cdu33a cdrom. But the root
        drive will not give me permission to write ANYTHING to it,
        even as 'root' user - thus all fails.

        Can anyone help? IS there something that I can do to undo this
        'permission denied' business? HELP!!!!!

-r. "I've got an inferiority complex, but it's not a very good one" bickles

-- 
[email-masked] (Roger Bicknell)

Remember: "Guns don't kill people and GNU is Not Unix."  =]

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Dan Newcombe)
Subject: Re: What is Linux good for?
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:00:34 UNDEFINED

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Daniel Woodard) writes:

>>FAQ??? They even don't check the name of the group on which they are
>  That's an outright lie.  I looked for a faq.  Not finding one, I posted 
>this message.

Where did you look?

There is one.  There is quite a bit if you count the HOW-TO's etc...

--
Dan Newcombe                    [email-masked]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"And the man in the mirror has sad eyes."       -Marillion

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Harmon Seaver)
Subject: Re: [INFO WANTED] C/SLIP vs. PPP
Date: 14 Oct 1994 17:40:06 -0600
Reply-To: [email-masked]

   I'm doing a class project to try to convince various grade and high
school officials that they would be much smarter to buy a 586 and 100
dumb terminals and run Linux/Xwindows/Motif than buying 100 macs. Or even
just running Linux in text mode, since mostly what school computers are
used for is just word processing anyway, and have a few macs or whatever
for the other stuff. 
   So here's my question: How much RAM and how much swap space does a 586
need (or a 486 even) to run 100 terminals, either in text mode or Xwin
mode?  And can I even run Xwin on dumb terminals? Also, does anyone know
of any good cheap vga res terminals w/color? Last time I looked, a few
years ago, the cheapest was about $800. Also, what would you use for 
ports for that many terminals?

Thanx.

Harmon Seaver 
[email-masked]

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<> "The Way of the Samurai is death." - Jocho Yamamoto 1710  Hagakure <>
<> "Let no man's life stand in the way -- especially your own."       <>
<>                                       Miyamoto Musashi 1584-1645   <>
<> "The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here <>
<> and you are out there."                           Yasutani Roshi   <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Harald Milz)
Subject: Re: transparent ftp filesystem?
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:49:58 GMT

In comp.os.linux.misc, Benjamin John Walter ([email-masked]) wrote:

> Is anyone currently working on a filesystem that would provide
> transparent access to files over ftp?  I've seen that GNU would like
> to see such an fs in their Hurd system, and I'd be interested in
> getting in touch with anyone working in this area on Linux.

You can use the ange-ftp package for Emacs or even Mosaic ... Seriously,
there is something like a ftp filesystem as a sample in the userfs package.

-- 
Disclaimer: "These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be
yours too."
                -- Dave Haynie
-- 
Harald Milz ([email-masked])      WWW: http://www.ix.de/editors/hm.html
iX Multiuser Multitasking Magazine      phone +49 (511) 53 52-377
Helstorfer Str. 7, D-30625 Hannover     fax   +49 (511) 53 52-378
Opinions stated herein are my own, not necessarily my employer's.
my employer's.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (DAVID L. JOHNSON)
Subject: Re: Linux & Windows...
Date: 14 Oct 1994 16:45:16 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (J.J. Paijmans) writes:
>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Anders Eriksson) writes:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I've hurd a rumour about Linux beeing able to run windows on the console.
>>I standard mode of course kind of like an ordinary dos graphic app.
>>Is that true???
>>
>>Since I don't follow this newsgroup regulary, please mail your replies.
>>
>
>And for everybody else: No. 
>
>I don't want to hurt the people who work on the WINE-project, but the
>persistent rumour "...that you can run MS-Windows under Linux..."
>leads people to expectations that are not founded in reality. Such
>disappointments may cause people to think that the rest of Linux too
>is just hype.
>
>Therefore I would suggest that we, Linux partisans,keep a low profile
>on WINE unless at least those MS-Windows applications that come with
>the original distribution, work without problems.
>
>Paai.
>
Agreed, but that wasn't the question.  I believe  the question was whether
dosemu could handle, perhaps, Windows 3.0 in real mode.  I thought I read that
the answer was yes.  Whether that would be acceptable or not is another
question.

As far as Wine goes, there was a great deal of progress being made a few months
back, more and more things were running, and those that were were running 
better all the time.  That seems to have slowed down now, which is a shame.

But, it is a difficult project.  You probably know that WABI, which inspired
wine, also is limited in the number of app's it can run (I believe I saw
an ad suggesting some dozen or so programs that were certified to run).

I also don't think the benchmark of success with wine should be write or
solitaire, either, but the kinds of product that would enable more people to
leave the Gates behind, like WP/windows, Quicken, Lotus.  With the advent of
iBCS, which allows us to use SCO, etc., binaries, and commercial linux
programs like Maple, there is less of a push in that direction, and with
MS acquiring Quicken, they will push ever harder to make their software
unworkable on anything but their own system.

-- 

David L. Johnson                        [email-masked] or 
Department of Mathematics               [email-masked]
Lehigh University
14 E. Packer Avenue                     (610) 758-3759
Bethlehem, PA 18015-3174                (610) 828-3708

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Byron A Jeff)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: ez (was Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux?)
Date: 14 Oct 1994 17:00:29 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Richard L. Goerwitz <[email-masked]> wrote:
>[email-masked] writes:
>>It is X only.  I think Linux needs something more general for non-X
>>terminals.  I spend 90% of my time using MS-Kermit connected via a dialup
>>line.  I imagine that I am not alone.
>
>
>Aside:
>
>Personally, I don't that dial-up character-based I/O is the future of
>computing.  To bend over backwards to suit this constituency would be
>to cripple any forward-looking WP, and to slow development.

Unfortunately it's elitist. My lab has 50 vt-320 terminals and no
X-terminals. So my students who would use such a product are out of luck.

I'm typing this from a Linux box with a CGA card and original issue
IBM PC Color Display. Am I not worthy of this product?

Not to bend over backwards but to realize that a single interface cannot
solve all the problems.

Have both. Enhance the X version.

Later,

BAJ 
-- 
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: [email-masked]

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Scott Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Does all SCO software run on Linux
Date: 11 Oct 1994 02:46:24 GMT

>>>>> "Mike" == Mike Jagdis <[email-masked]> writes:
Mike> The fact that many, *many* people seem to be using iBCS but
Mike> hardly anyone talks to me <sniff> would appear to suggest
Mike> there are few applications that have significant problems. I
Mike> might be reduced to adding 286 Xenix support soon :-(.

I posted about this in comp.windows.x.i368unix, but got no replies.

I've been using WP 5.1 for sco unix with linux and Xfree 2.1 for about
a month with no real problems. 

I recently tried to upgrade to XFree 3.1. When I tried out WP, it gave
give me lots of Xm* error and then wold give me a  seg violation. One time it
cause my HD to do *something* for about 1/2 hour. I ended up rebooting
that time.   

I'm at kernel 1.1.45 and am now back to Xfree 2.1.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Rasquin Jean-Pierre)
Subject: Re: Lilo booting last booted OS.
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:26:51 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] () writes:
>From: [email-masked] ()
>Subject: Re: Lilo booting last booted OS.
>Date: 7 Oct 1994 07:04:42 GMT

>Bruno Van Wilder ([email-masked]) wrote:
>: [email-masked] wrote:

>: : I would like to know if it is possible that Lilo will boot the last booted
>: : OS. E.g. if I boot Linux then Lilo will keep on booting linux 'till I select
>: : another OS (MS-Dos). I liked this feature in the SLS distribution (0.99.X),
>: : but it is gone in the slackware distribution.

>: I do not think it is possible yet, but it is a good idea indeed.

Well it _is_ possible if you only have two OS's to switch between. You can put 
MS-DOS as the first OS in lilo.conf and Linux as the second one. There is an 
option in LILO (don't remeber which one now... it's in the readme anyway) 
which enables to select which OS to boot next, but only once. In other words, 
LILO would boot the (this way) selected OS, and boot the standart first OS in 
any other subsequent bootup. If you now put this command in rc.local, each 
time you'd boot Linux, it would set-up Linux as next boot default. If you now 
select DOS, you'd override this setting, and any subsequent bootup would boot 
the default OS, which is DOS. This has worked fine for me for almost a year 
now.

If you have any questions left, ask ;-)

JP.

------------------------------

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End of Linux-Misc Digest
******************************