From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  6 08:55:00 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 14:45:27 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Board production
Cc: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
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Dear Mipsers !

You may have recognized that "Oooops" mail...

We, ie. Neil and me, had a discussion about the production
of the riscy board because Waldorf Electronics (the
company I'm working for) is interested in manufacturing
the boards and in doing some CAD work.

The discussion is still in progress and wether Waldorf
will produce the boards or not depends obviosly on what
the whole group thinks about that.

Perhaps I have to introduce Waldorf Electronics here.
Waldorf is a small company developing and producing
synthesizers and peripherals for the music market.
We normally have *nothing* to do with the workstation
and Un*x market, we just use our Mips machines as
development systems.

We are interested in the riscy board and a Linux port
because we are looking for a Un*x kernel and matching
hardware as the base for a kind of a new synthesizer.
Please excuse that I can't tell you much about that thing.
It's confidential and my boss would simply kill me for
a single word more.

We are highly interested in seeing this project succeed,
and I will do some work on it during my daytime job
and at home too.

However, a possible scheme could be:

- Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)

- Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
  international market or complete boards only for
  the european market and partly assembled ones for
  oversea.

- SMD is now ok.

- We provide warranty and email support.

- Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.

- The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.

- We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.

- We would use the design as the base for some further
  development. 


I hope that we all find a way satisfying each member of
the riscy group and each customer too. Please let Neil
and me know what you think about.

If you have further questions about Waldorf Electronics,
feel free to ask. I'll try to answer if I can.

Bye,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 09:17:54 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
Subject: Re: Board production 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 14:45:27 +0200."
             <9307061245.AA10855@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 07:16:59 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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    However, a possible scheme could be:
    
    - Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)

This is acceptable.
    
    - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
      international market or complete boards only for
      the european market and partly assembled ones for
      oversea.

This is acceptable if the boards are sold to the Linux community 
at cost + shipping expenseses.  
    
    - SMD is now ok.

This is very good, since it lets us use the 3730 without any problems,
various integrated pee-cee chipsets, etc.
    

 
From tthorn@daimi.aau.dk  Ukn Jul  6 09:44:13 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 15:43:19 +0200
From: Tommy Thorn <tthorn@daimi.aau.dk>
Message-Id: <199307061343.AA12805@avignon.daimi.aau.dk>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Subject: Re: Board production
References: <9307061245.AA10855@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> write:

>Dear Mipsers !
...
>However, a possible scheme could be:
>- Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)
>- Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
>  international market or complete boards only for
>  the european market and partly assembled ones for
>  oversea.
>- SMD is now ok.

Good. Does this change the current design proposal?

>- We provide warranty and email support.
>- Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.
>- The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.
>- We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.
>- We would use the design as the base for some further
>  development.

Great news!! I wholeheartedly support this. Of course, I'm
biased, as I vision myself going to Gemany to see and get the
board. ;^) ;^) A trip to the US is too expensive.

>I hope that we all find a way satisfying each member of
>the riscy group and each customer too. Please let Neil
>and me know what you think about.

>If you have further questions about Waldorf Electronics,
>feel free to ask. I'll try to answer if I can.

I couldn't find Waldorf on my (lousy) map, where about is it?

 
From tor@tss.no  Ukn Jul  6 10:09:41 1993
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From: tor@tss.no (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 16:02:46 +0200
In-Reply-To: Tommy Thorn <tthorn@daimi.aau.dk> "Re: Board production" (Jul 6, 3:43pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
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Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> write:
[description about Waldorf board production deleted]
>I hope that we all find a way satisfying each member of
>the riscy group and each customer too. Please let Neil
>and me know what you think about.
>
>If you have further questions about Waldorf Electronics,
>feel free to ask. I'll try to answer if I can.

This doesn't sound bad at all.  Pricing will be self-coast + shipping?

Tor	
(tor@tss.no, soon to be on vacation. Not reading mails mid-July to mid-August)

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 11:32:22 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 10:30:22 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307061530.AA08125@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
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> From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
> 
> Dear Mipsers !
> 
> You may have recognized that "Oooops" mail...
> 
> We, ie. Neil and me, had a discussion about the production
> of the riscy board because Waldorf Electronics (the
> company I'm working for) is interested in manufacturing
> the boards and in doing some CAD work.
> 
> The discussion is still in progress and wether Waldorf
> will produce the boards or not depends obviosly on what
> the whole group thinks about that.

Fine with me.  It does greatly improve the chances of completion.

> Perhaps I have to introduce Waldorf Electronics here...

Interesting work.

> - Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)

Design file would become available?  What format would such
files be?  

> 
> - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
>   international market or complete boards only for
>   the european market and partly assembled ones for
>   oversea.

Given the Gerber PhotoPlot files, there are many places that
could "do a run".  Given blank boards, there are many places
that can "stuff".  I may be interested in stuffing a few boards
here.  Even with 0.5 mm pitch pqfp.

> - SMD is now ok.

Thank Heavens.

> 
> - We provide warranty and email support.
> 
> - Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.
> 
> - The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.
> 
> - We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.

This would be important to maintaining the spirit in which
this group was created.

> - We would use the design as the base for some further
>   development. 

Good for us, good for you.

> Bye,
> Andy
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  6 11:56:59 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307061557.AA13240@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Board production 
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 10:57:45 CDT
In-Reply-To: <199307061317.AA28753@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>; from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 06, 93 7:16 am
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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>     - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
>       international market or complete boards only for
>       the european market and partly assembled ones for
>       oversea.
> 
> This is acceptable if the boards are sold to the Linux community 
> at cost + shipping expenseses.  
>     
This would be great but I wouldn't expect it.  As long as everything is
make public (ie the schematics and PCB layout), others could produce the
boards.  This seems no different than what SLS and others are doing with
linux codes.  All for a profit.  Neil said they'd also be offering support.
If that is the case they deserve some profit.  Of course too much and no one
will buy.


--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  6 12:07:55 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 17:58:37 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Mipsers !

Sometimes response comes *really* fast :-)

I'll try to answer some questions now. I'll explain
details later because I'm a bit busy today and some
things aren't perfectly clear yet.

> >However, a possible scheme could be:
> >- Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)
> >- Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
> >  international market or complete boards only for
> >  the european market and partly assembled ones for
> >  oversea.
> >- SMD is now ok.

> Good. Does this change the current design proposal?

No. We will produce the board as specified by the
riscy group. I just have one wish: We need to have
on-board ethernet.

> >- We provide warranty and email support.
> >- Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.
> >- The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.
> >- We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.
> >- We would use the design as the base for some further
> >  development.

> Great news!! I wholeheartedly support this. Of course, I'm
> biased, as I vision myself going to Gemany to see and get the
> board. ;^) ;^) A trip to the US is too expensive.

You might need not to come to germany. Probably we will
sell the boards via mail-order or the like. But you're welcome !

> I couldn't find Waldorf on my (lousy) map, where about is it?

Yes, it's hard to find. You won't find it on a large-scale
european map or the like, probably not even on a german map.
Look for Koblenz and Bonn. Waldorf is exactly in between and
is *very*, *very* small. Only around 1200 lost soules live here...

> [...]
> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

We do not claim the right to do manufacturing exclusively. Of course,
other companies still have the right to produce that board too.

> Everyone is excited at the new development that the Waldorf Electronics 
> company is willing to produce the board. 
> I think this is a positive development: This means that it becomes
> quite a lot more likely that this will not remain vaporware. 

In fact, we are interested to realize the board because of our
interest in a Linux port for mips. Without the board the port
will never happen. I don't doubt that the mips group is able
to make a good design, but there will be definitly some difficulties
to produce and distribute the boards.

Someone asked me (in german) why we are interested in that board
and if there will be any kind of audio on it.
Again, we plan a new kind of network-orientated synthesizer.
No matter what CPU will be on the board, the power will never be
sufficient to generate (not playback) sounds. Sound generation
will be done by some special proprietary hardware and requires
much more than a dumb stereo D/A chip. Therefore, we are not
interested in sound on the board, but we don't mind if the
riscy group wants to have it.
We are interested in the board and in supporting its development
because we are looking for a small, reliable kernel (called Linux)
and a high-speed hardware, preferrably mips-based, from which we can
start to make our own spin-off.

However, this is confidential and I simply can't tell you more.
Nevertheless, we will strictly take care of the GPL and we will
try to document our changes against the original riscy board,
but not before our project is ready and available.
This will take a while...

More Q/A tomorrow ?

Cheers,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  6 12:14:34 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307061615.AA13331@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Board production
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 11:15:18 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307061530.AA08125@ubitrex.mb.ca>; from "Tim Braun" at Jul 6, 93 10:30 am
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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> > - We would use the design as the base for some further
> >   development. 
> 
> Good for us, good for you.
> 
If you would use the board as a base for another project then would that
new design also be under GPL?  If not I have no problem with that.  But
the board would have to be under something similar to the LGPL.

--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 12:28:13 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 10:57:45 CDT."
             <9307061557.AA13240@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 10:26:57 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


    >     - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
    >       international market or complete boards only for
    >       the european market and partly assembled ones for
    >       oversea.
    > 
    > This is acceptable if the boards are sold to the Linux community 
    > at cost + shipping expenseses.  
    >     

    This would be great but I wouldn't expect it.  As long as everything is
    make public (ie the schematics and PCB layout), others could produce the
    boards.  

Technically, other people *can* produce the boards.  However, if we've 
made design concessions to Waldorf (ie, use of SMT components) the 
number of potential other sources are greatly reduced, and the price 
increased (ie, higher bandwidth bus for Waldorf's propriety boards).  
Also, this will fragment the market (initially *extremely* small), meaning that 
people end up paying more because the producers have bigger problems 
making price breaks for chips because everyone is selling fewer.

    This seems no different than what SLS and others are doing with
    linux codes.  All for a profit.  

That's fine, it's still easy for me to grab Linux for free.  It's 
not easy for me to find another source for an SMT motheroard.

    Neil said they'd also be offering support.

As long as the *hardware* works when I plug the appropriate cables 
in the appropriate places, and I have databooks on the chips (which
I can get for free by calling the appropriate companies), I don't 
give a rats ass about support, and really don't want to subsidize 
handholding for lusers.  I imagine that many of the hacker types 
(rather than users) interested in the board have similar feelings.

    If that is the case they deserve some profit.  Of course too much and no on
   e
    will buy.

The question is :  What does Waldorf want out of it, and what can the 
Linux community give them?  It's my impression that they want a reasonably
priced system to put their propriety product in (this product is their
money maker, rather than the board itself).  If this is the case, then
it is in their best interest to get it into the hackers' hands cheap
(I think that if they gave Linus one, the kernel would work *real*
fast, if Fred got one the ethernet would work, if Eric or I got one SCSI 
would work real soon).  Hobbiests who've been hacking on Linux for 
over a year and a half are going to be more familiar with the system 
than the average waldorf employee.  Selling at cost, or even giving
a few boards away and even a few hundred to a thousand US dollars in cash 
to the right hobbiests could motivate them to have the software working 
quickly and for a much lower cost than it would have for waldorf to do the 
same since Waldorf isn't paying for a full-time engineer, 1/10th of a 
secretary, 1/20th of a janitor, etc.

--------


 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  7 05:57:22 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 11:44:24 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Dear Mipsers,

Neil and me had a phone talk this morning and we will talk again
this evening to find a solution which should satisfy all members
of the riscy group and hopefully the complete Linux community.

Either Neil (propably better because his english isn't that
restricted) or myself will inform you about details then.

However, we cannot tell you about exact costs as long it isn't clear
what is on board and what is not.

Cheers,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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