From dfishman@csn.org  Ukn Jul  6 10:21:11 1993
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From: Dan Fishman <dfishman@csn.org>
Message-Id: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org>
Subject: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 08:19:04 -0600 (MDT)
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How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!

Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.

If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

Dan Fishman (dfishman@csn.org) (W) (303) 469-6469 (Fax) (303) 465-4396

 
From msuomala@beta.hut.fi  Ukn Jul  6 10:39:21 1993
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From: Matti Suomalainen <msuomala@beta.hut.fi>
Message-Id: <9307061437.AA08529@beta.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 17:37:10 +0200 (EET DST)
In-Reply-To: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org> from "Dan Fishman" at Jul 6, 93 08:19:04 am
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> How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!
:
> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

The board design will be 'GPL' (not?), so anyone can sell it etc.
The only difference is that Waldorf will be helping us to build it 
(they could just wait until we finish and use it then).

If other commercial vendors want to join us, why not?
As long as the design will be GPL, i dont mind any commercial partner
lending us a hand :)

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  6 10:40:27 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 10:38:53 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org> from "Dan Fishman" at Jul 6, 93 08:19:04 am
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> 
> How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!

Since a company offered to provide free serivces to help in a GPL design
of a mips based unix box.  If you find others please let us know.

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
> earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
> clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.

This is true, but those volunteers also have to appreciate services
that aren't for free like building a motherboard with SMT chips.

> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids. 
By my understanding Waldorf has offered to help in the design for free.
Since it's going to be GPL you can easily request the design and build
it yourself.

> I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

Well help in the design (which has already been volunteered) and when
production starts put in a bid.)

I would personally favor any board produced by design particpants 
then a profit motivated source.

Waldorf has alot to gain from this, access to a mips designed
motherboard for there own purposes, and we have alot to
gain from them (access to there production facilities) sounds like
a great partnership.    

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From dfishman@csn.org  Ukn Jul  6 18:32:48 1993
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From: Dan Fishman <dfishman@csn.org>
Message-Id: <199307062229.AA17033@teal.csn.org>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 16:29:14 -0600 (MDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307061439.AA08211@gossip.pyramid.com> from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 6, 93 10:38:53 am
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> 
> > 
> > How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> > in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> > suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!
> 
> Since a company offered to provide free serivces to help in a GPL design
> of a mips based unix box.  If you find others please let us know.
> 

May I suggest that when logic design are completed that we offer that level
of design to any fab shops who wish to layout and fab some prototypes.  I
may offer up such a bid through subcontractors if I get commercial value from
the design in other markets (free service to the netters).  I thought I
understood that their offer for free service was in exchange for some marketing
rights to the product.  Perhaps I misunderstood what they were getting in
exchange.

> > Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
> > earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
> > clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.
> 
> This is true, but those volunteers also have to appreciate services
> that aren't for free like building a motherboard with SMT chips.

Even volunteers get something back (a free board or at least at component
costs... pride... credit for a job well done... accomplishment...).  I
guess I'm wondering what other benefit this one "volunteer" is getting
in return... it sounds far more tangible than these other benefits.  That
is fine but perhaps others would offer even more "free" service in exchange
for material (commercial) benefits.

> 
> > If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> > moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> > should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> > bids. 
> By my understanding Waldorf has offered to help in the design for free.
> Since it's going to be GPL you can easily request the design and build
> it yourself.
> 
> > I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> > potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> > collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.
> 
> Well help in the design (which has already been volunteered) and when
> production starts put in a bid.)

I already volunteered some time ago as a SW jock.  My point is that if
there are material/commercial gains in other HW related aspects of 
such voluntary efforts, I may seek to volunteer there as well.  I have
already had significant exposure to the IDT 3730 (under early non-
disclosure) and can probably be of significant help in using the chip
(both in HW and SW design).

> 
> I would personally favor any board produced by design particpants 
> then a profit motivated source.
> 

Again, perhaps I mi-understood... Isn't Waldorf "volunteering" in exchange 
for some commercial exploitation of the board?  Please help me understand
(no sarchasm intended... seriouly please explain).

> Waldorf has alot to gain from this, access to a mips designed
> motherboard for there own purposes, and we have alot to
> gain from them (access to there production facilities) sounds like
> a great partnership.    
> 
> -- 
> Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
> Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
> Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok
> 
> 


 
From paul@suite.sw.oz.au  Ukn Jul  6 19:03:58 1993
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From: paul@suite.sw.oz.au (Paul Antoine)
Message-Id: <199307062224.AA03126@suite.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com (R3000 Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 08:24:16 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org> from "Dan Fishman" at Jul 6, 93 08:19:04 am
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
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> How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!

But we have... see the circuit design is/was always going to be GPL'd,
and this does not change.  ANYONE can do a PCB design from the cicuit,
to which they would then hold copyright.

Were we to do a PCB layout as a co-operative effort, then that too
would presumably be GPL'd, and anyone could produce boards from that
artwork.  This would STILL not prevent someone from selling machines
based on that board, except that the buyer would then presumably
acquire the right to have access to all design information.

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
> earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
> clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.

Were we to want to do an SMT design, then the appropriate CAD software
would have to be sought (which in Australia sells for $5K), and us
volunteers would have to bear that cost.  Those of us experienced in
PCB layout (Neil, myself, others?) would then need to spend our
precious 'spare' time doing the layout.

What we really gain from Waldorf is access to their CAD expertise and
tools (i.e.  less time needed to design with cool CAD tools, and
experience in using them), and the increased economies of scale
because they would presumably add significantly to the number we were
going to make.

> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

There's absolutely nothing stopping this occuring, and in fact
companies would be free to use the GPL'd circuit design for their own
purposes WITHOUT talking to us volunteers at all, which is what
Waldorf could have done.  They have, however, chosen to let us know so
that we have the OPTION of buying boards from them.

Anyway, I think the idea has merit, and from what I can tell from
telephone discussions with Neil, Waldorf appear to be genuine in their
desire to give us access to their boards at cost price.


Paul

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