Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC

From: Andreas Busse <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:36:37 +0200

>    Yes, and the main difference between the R4200 and the other R4x00 CPUs
>    are that is *not* pincompatibel, that it has the old R3000 pipeline and
>    a simpler FPU. Note: This is what I've heard. I will receive data sheets
>    this week. Perhaps things have changed...
>
>    However, if the R4200 is no real R4x00 CPU I would suggest to use
>    one of the others, even if it is more expensive at the moment.
>
>    Are we going to build a R4000 machine now ? I would appreciate this !

> Prices and performance
> Notes : 
> 1.  Quantities were unspecified, in any case these prices are for 
> 	more chips than we're looking to buy, and for small lots the 
> 	distributor sets the price.
> 
> 2.  All prices in US Dollars
> 
> 3.  The figures for everything but the 4200 are from the July OEM magazine,
> 	I don't know where the 4200 info originated, but several net.sources
> 	said the same things.
> 
> 4.  Clock speed is in Mhz, obviously these things run the internal clock
> 	faster than external.
> 
> Vendor		Clock 	Chip	Price	SPECint92 	SPECfp92
> unspecified 	100	R4000SC 640	61.7		63.4
> unspecified	150	R4400SC 1120	88(est)		97(est)
> NEC 	        80	R4200   70	55		30

Ok, but you can't compare the SC versions with the R4200, so far I know.
In any case, I would suggest to use the PC version.
What I have heard from IDT ( *OFFICIAL* statement, no net mumble ) is
that the price for the R4400PC will be around $200 in low quantities.
As I said already, I'm waiting for the NEC-Prices. If there's in fact
still a large price difference between the R4200 and others: Yes, we
should then use the R4200.

> And, for comparison
> Intel		66	486	542	32.2		16.1
> Intel		66	Pentium	965	64.5		56.9
> 
> Unquestionably, the R4200 gives the best price/performance of 
> any of these chips.  

> After we adpoted the motherboard idea and people started calling this
> thing a "workstation", a target price of $600-$700 was set.  It might
> be a little difficult to meet a price somewhere in that neighborhood 
> if we end up using a $640 chip...

We should try to get *real* prices, not just estimations.
Let us decide then, and don't let us confuse by unqualified
statements on the net. I totally agree that we should *not* try
to build a $2000 thing. Nobody would buy it, so nobody would
work in it. A price of around us$700 should be ok for a R4000
machine, isn't it ?

Andy

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From: Alan Krantz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 09:38:58 MDT

>>From [email-masked] Thu Jul 29 09:31:32 1993
  >>From: Amos Shapira <[email-masked]>
  >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 18:32:14 +0300

  >>In message <[email-masked]> Andreas Busse writes:

  >> [ lots of info,  bottom line is that the R4200 doesn't have a FPU ]

  >>|Any comments ? Please - if we really want to make hardware
  >>|instead of vapor-ware, wakeup, guys. Here's something to discuss.

  >>Ok,  so shall we take a vote or what?

  >>I am not a hardware type but the R4200 seems to be enough for me it and it
  >>eats 486/66 raw even as it is (here is the table again:

  >>                                                        ^^
  >>                                                        ^^^^

Price, performance, and ease of building a mother board how does some of the
other available risc processors compare such as 601 and the new sparc ?

atk

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From: [email-masked] (Tim Braun)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:38:50 CDT

My quick, off-the-cuff opinion:

1. A 3081/3051 design is still feasible, and may be a price/performance
   competitor - if the price is low enough to fit the lower performance.
   I note that IBM is now selling motherboards with 486slc/2's on them
   for about CDN$450.00.  That's a 486/33 class machine. (25/50 MHz clock
   doubled.)  16 KByte on-chip cache, no secondary cache.  We should
   hit 1.5-2 times that performance, with on-board scsi/serial/fdc/video
   for 1.5 times the price.  That's sensible to me.  The R3081/MOM3000/R3041
   combination is interesting.

2. An R4000SC design is too complex for my tastes, and secondary cache
   is too expensive (ca. $100 including support chips).  The performance
   information given is interesting as upper-bound numbers.

3. An R4000PC design may be feasible.  But we don't have cost information
   or performance information.  I really want to stay under $800 (no ram).

4. An R4200 design may be feasible, but no-one knows what it will cost.
   I'll start bugging the NEC distributor here.  We have a good relationship
   with him.

5. A PowerPC design is a dark horse.  Motorola will be aching to get design
   information out to design teams, but if it requires secondary caches
   and 60 MHz design, it will be tricky and expensive.

6. The SPARC chips look like they require significant design effort, and
   have historically been priced > $400.  Witness the Weitek "SPARC1 upgrade"
   that retails at $1500.  Certainly SMCC and other high-volume purchasers
   get better prices, but can we?

My 1992 NEC Databook on DSP's has a one-page table of the RISC products
which includes:

NEC part  Mkt name   Clock (MHz)  Pkg        pins
uPD30361  Vr3600     25, 33       PPGA       175
uPD30400  Vr4000PC   50, 66, 75   CPGA       179
uPD30401  Vr4000SC   50, 66, 75   CPGA, LGA  447
uPD30402  Vr4000MC   50, 66, 75   CPGA, LGA  447

I do have advance information on the Orion from IDT.  This is R4000PC
pin compatible (PGA) or 208-pin MQuad.  Hmmm. 5-stage pipeline like the
Vr4200.  And what is the R4400PC?  Note that some of these devices
(Orion) are 3.3V.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Tim Braun)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 14:16:35 CDT

Just perusing the latest (July 22nd) EDN -

Fujitsu MB86932 SPARClite - US$79 - 20 MHz,  US$120 - 40 MHz, 5K qty.
  DRAM controller, 2 KByte D-cache, 8 KByte I-cache, "1 MFlop" (no
  FPU), 2 DMA channels, timer on-chip, address decoder on-chip, 
  interrupt controller.

Cyrix Cx486s2/50 - US$249, 1k qty (just for $ comparison).

DEC 21064 - Alpha - US$1096, 1k qty.  I don't think we're talking
  Alpha this year.

Intel Pentium - "less than $1000".

AT&T Hobbit - $100 CPU & chipset (5 chips). 10k qty.  No gcc.

TI uSPARC - US$179, 10k qty.  Offchip primary cache required.

I don't think we should use any of these, for various price and support
reasons.  But the price/performance issue is part of what's driving this
list, so perspective is helpful.  But that SPARClite (targetted at
embedded/X/laser printers) is interesting.   Hmmm, a $500 SS-2
motherboard?  I guess that's the Classic's price.