From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 18:12:02 1993
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From: Youda He <yhe@eecs.umich.edu>
Message-Id: <199307192208.AA28607@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 18:08:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oER1U-00039LC@zarniwoop.chi.il.us>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 9, 93 3:34 pm
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I tried to get some info on the NEC ARC100/150 manufacturing kits, so far
not many people know about it, even within NEC, one tech support people
called me back said the manufacturing kits cost $5000. if that true, it 
is a great deal. it consists of:

ARC chip set and CPU, document, ROM, dssign info of:
 Schematics (soft and hard copy) of Vr4400PC,  Vr4400SC, Vr4400MC mother
board, Ethernet, serial board, audio/mouse board, video board.
 Netlist PAL/PLD
 Binary and source code for Baselevel firmware and Windows NT firmware, HAL
 System documentation
 Gerber tapes for five system motherboard.

How do you feel about this board? 

-- Youda
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 18:38:07 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 18:36:20 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307192208.AA28607@quip.eecs.umich.edu> from "Youda He" at Jul 19, 93 06:08:46 pm
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> 
> I tried to get some info on the NEC ARC100/150 manufacturing kits, so far
> not many people know about it, even within NEC, one tech support people
> called me back said the manufacturing kits cost $5000. if that true, it 
> is a great deal. it consists of:
> 
> ARC chip set and CPU, document, ROM, dssign info of:
>  Schematics (soft and hard copy) of Vr4400PC,  Vr4400SC, Vr4400MC mother
> board, Ethernet, serial board, audio/mouse board, video board.
>  Netlist PAL/PLD
>  Binary and source code for Baselevel firmware and Windows NT firmware, HAL
>  System documentation
>  Gerber tapes for five system motherboard.
> 
> How do you feel about this board? 
> 
> -- Youda
> 
Sounds great.  Please post any/all info you get.  

Maybe we could get a discount for just one of the motherboard designs.  

Or promise to donate the linux port and then they could sell the motherboard 
design+linux for 5k.

The key would be getting enough people so that we could split the 5k enough 
ways. 

I'd love to get a hold of a mips 4k board cheap.   Any ideas on 4400 chip
prices?  4000?

I'd suspect we can't afford more then a mips 4k.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 19:01:52 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307192300.AA12029@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 16:00:23 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307192237.AA26363@gossip.pyramid.com>; from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 19, 93 6:36 pm
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> > How do you feel about this board? 
> > 
> > -- Youda
> > 
> Sounds great.  Please post any/all info you get.  
> 
> Maybe we could get a discount for just one of the motherboard designs.  

The five designs would seem to be the MB, Ethernet, serial, etc.  I'm
kind of interested in the other designs also.

> Or promise to donate the linux port and then they could sell the motherboard 
> design+linux for 5k.

I doubt that NEC would be interested in linux.  Its not professional for such
a company to promote free software.

> The key would be getting enough people so that we could split the 5k enough 
> ways. 

With the mailing list the way it is (was) there would be around 100 sales of
a reasonably priced board in faily short order.  That is $50 ea for the design.

> I'd love to get a hold of a mips 4k board cheap.   Any ideas on 4400 chip
> prices?  4000?

I would imagine that the design from NEC is copyrighted such that we wouldn't
make it generally available.  So it would take a company to buy the design
and manufacture it.  Its then up to that company to make the price right
for linux people to be interested.  The bad news is that the R4000PC costs
around us$700 right now (correct me if I'm wrong).  So the finished motherboard
would easily be $1500 or more.

In about 6 - 9 months, IDT release the Orion chip, which is a pin compatible
replacement for the R4000PC which should cost less than $200 in small to
medium quantities.  This adds weight to my argument for us pause this project
for about 6 months.

Don't forget though, that you automatically need twice the RAM, because this
is a 64-bit CPU.  (That is unless there is bus sizing logic on the board.)

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 20 12:00:16 1993
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From: Youda He <yhe@eecs.umich.edu>
Message-Id: <199307201551.AA13317@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 11:51:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9307192300.AA12029@sword.eng.pyramid.com>; from "Neil Russell" at Jul 19, 93 4:00 pm
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> 
> > > How do you feel about this board? 
> > > 
> > > -- Youda
> > > 
> > Sounds great.  Please post any/all info you get.  
> > 
> > Maybe we could get a discount for just one of the motherboard designs.  
> 
> The five designs would seem to be the MB, Ethernet, serial, etc.  I'm
> kind of interested in the other designs also.
> 
The five designs includes 3 mother boards: Vr4000/4400PC, Vr4000/4400SC and
VR4400MC motherboards, it sounds like NEC/MIPS really want this thing
get to end users hand. they also have 4200, low cost, low power part.
from their flyer, they seems also have 3600A, with FPU.

> 
> In about 6 - 9 months, IDT release the Orion chip, which is a pin compatible
> replacement for the R4000PC which should cost less than $200 in small to
> medium quantities.  This adds weight to my argument for us pause this project
> for about 6 months.
> 
> Don't forget though, that you automatically need twice the RAM, because this
> is a 64-bit CPU.  (That is unless there is bus sizing logic on the board.)
> 
> -- 
> Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
> Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
> 3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
> San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
> 
With kits like NECs and I guess other company will join, there may be more
than one start up company want to make MIPS based computer, since NEC will
have:
  .. And coming soon is an ACER designed, NEC manufactured PICA (performance-
enhanced IO and CPU Architecture) chip set which will offer another high-
performance solution... coupled with ACER's manufacturing kit, provides an 
optional complete system solution....

-- Youda

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 20 12:03:18 1993
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 09:57:53 MDT
From: Alan Krantz <atk@agua.Colorado.EDU>
Message-Id: <9307201557.AA04805@agua.colorado.edu>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

Three things: 
    1) It seems that the video should be a local bus card instead of
       on the mother board (given the rapidly changing/availbility) of
       cheap accelators (S3 boards are now around $130)

    2) Is the SCSI on the isa bus or main cpu board ?

    3) Is anyone porting linux to the Mips chip ?

Thanks, 
alan
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 20 14:28:33 1993
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Message-Id: <9307201748.AA26266@rei.com>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 12:48:08 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307200121.AA22217@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 19, 93 08:21:25 pm
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> 
> I would imagine that the design from NEC is copyrighted such that we wouldn't
> make it generally available.  So it would take a company to buy the design
> and manufacture it.  Its then up to that company to make the price right
> for linux people to be interested.

Isn't this contrary to the whole point of this project?  Or have I
misunderstood what the goal was?

I thought the point was a computer distributed under the Free
Software Foundation General Public License.  I interpreted that to
mean that all the 'sources' had to be available to anyone who has
the board, and that no one could prevent anyone from copying the
sources for anyone else.  By sources I understood schematics, parts
list, board etch and drill drawings, whatever anyone skilled in the
art would want to have to change the design and post the patches in
Usenet News, or have any board fab shop make a batch of 'em.  Have I
missed the boat again?

'Free' is not the price tag.  If you want lots of MIPS cheap, buy a
three year old workstation [I just bought a DECstation 3100 for US$1250
:-) ].  If you want more MIPS less cheap, buy a new 486PC.  If you have
an even bigger appetite, and bigger pockets, get a new workstation from
a high-volume manufacturer.  You're still bound to get a lot more for
your money than a DIY project built in prototype quantities.

I never imagined that 'cheap' was the goal -- it's just not a
reasonable goal.  I thought the goal was freedom.

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 21 01:43:14 1993
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From: jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge)
Message-Id: <9307210336.AA10744@chao.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:36:54 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9307201557.AA04805@agua.colorado.edu> from "Alan Krantz" at Jul 20, 93 09:57:53 am
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
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Alan Krantz bubbles:

> Three things: 
>     1) It seems that the video should be a local bus card instead of
>        on the mother board (given the rapidly changing/availbility) of
>        cheap accelators (S3 boards are now around $130)
>     2) Is the SCSI on the isa bus or main cpu board ?

Video and scsi are on the main board.  Read the list's archives before
commenting further, to save more noise.

>     3) Is anyone porting linux to the Mips chip ?

Yes.  I'm working on it, as much as possible without hardware.  I'm mainly
interested in getting the linux core going: interrupts, MMU and most
basic drivers, leaving most device drivers, user mode stuff etc to later
and for others.

	J
 
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
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  From owner-riscy@pyramid.com Tue Jul 20 23:39:28 1993
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  Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
  To: riscy@pyramid.com
  Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:36:54 +1000 (EST)
  In-Reply-To: <9307201557.AA04805@agua.colorado.edu> from "Alan Krantz" at Jul 20, 93 09:57:53 am
  Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
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  Alan Krantz bubbles:

  > Three things: 
  >     1) It seems that the video should be a local bus card instead of
  >        on the mother board (given the rapidly changing/availbility) of
  >        cheap accelators (S3 boards are now around $130)
  >     2) Is the SCSI on the isa bus or main cpu board ?

  Video and scsi are on the main board.  Read the list's archives before
  commenting further, to save more noise.

I saw the original blurb that said this was the case - though it did not
explain why. Can someone give me an update why this option is better and 
what type of performance is expected from the built in video controller
(and compare it to some of the popular video cards). Also, will the built in 
video support a mono-chrome (only) frame buffer in addition to a colour one?

(I just joined the list the other day so if there was a long discussion on 
 this i did not see it)

Thanks,
Alan
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 21 09:00:25 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:57:20 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307210336.AA10744@chao.sw.oz.au> from "Jeremy Fitzhardinge" at Jul 21, 93 01:36:54 pm
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> >     3) Is anyone porting linux to the Mips chip ?
> 
> Yes.  I'm working on it, as much as possible without hardware.  I'm mainly
> interested in getting the linux core going: interrupts, MMU and most
> basic drivers, leaving most device drivers, user mode stuff etc to later
> and for others.
> 
> 	J

Not sure if this is the appropiate time to get start the linux port, but I have
access to 2 decstation's and plan to help out as much as possible.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
