From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 09:43:25 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA28665; Sun, 4 Jul 93 09:43:22 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA23944; Sun, 4 Jul 93 06:42:45 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA17254; Sun, 4 Jul 93 06:42:19 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA16680; Sun, 4 Jul 93 06:42:15 -0700
Received: from mail.Germany.EU.net 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA23931; Sun, 4 Jul 93 06:31:49 -0700
Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net(EUnetD-2.3.0.e) via EUnet
	id XA26240; Sun, 4 Jul 1993 15:28:46 +0200
Received: from piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de 
	by wegy.waldorf-gmbh.de with UUCP (5.61/GEN-1.0.7)
	via EUnet for unido
	id AA24448; Sun, 4 Jul 93 15:21:02 +0200
From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 15:55:09 GMT
Message-Id: <9307041555.AA19231@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Received: by piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de (5.65b/GEN-1.0.7)
	via EUnet for wegy
	id AA19231; Sun, 4 Jul 93 15:55:09 GMT
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
Cc: andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Hi Mipsers,

I've got some response (fortunally without flames and bombes)
to my "downgraded spec sheet". Thanks.


General
-------

> > Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
> > with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
> > ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
> > That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.
> > 
> But by the time you reach the end of your list you've not only
> specified a complete workstation, you're calling it that yourself.

See keyboard controller.

CPU
---

> The only information I have on the R4200 is the announcement from
> Byte Magazine that was shared, and that sounded like complete
> Vaporware (tm) to me.  Impossible power specs and a promised
> delivery no sooner than six months in the future?  I wouldn't hold
> my breath waiting for that one.  On the other hand, I _would_ hold
> my breath waiting for the IDT3730.  That one would reduce the parts
> count and increase the probability of getting it working.

I'll try to find out what's about the R4200 and let you know.


RAM
---

> --- You wrote:
> * Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>   those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>   right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>   the good old x9 modules.
>   I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.
> --- end of quoted material ---
> I can get 60 ns 8MB 72-pin SIMMs for $260.  If you can find 30-pin 60 ns 16MB
> SIMMs for $260, that's great...  Or 4MB 60 ns SIMMs for $65.

What quantities ? What manufacturer ?

> I don't like to give as much board real estate to this as Neill wants,
> but you definitely need enough sockets to get the interleave that Neill
> wants.  32M (8 pieces, 4M X 9 bits) would probably satisfy me, so as
> long as I can leave some sockets empty I won't complain.

I totally agree.


Serial I/O
----------

> > * Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
> >   two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
> >   code.

> I am not objecting to 2 serial ports in general, but there is no
> reason at all to do code downloads on a different serial line.

Of course, you might use the same port for debugging and download.
But it's much more convenient to have independent ports, right ?

> The boot rom should boot the processor and go into an endless loop
> providing a prompt, and reading commands. The three essential
> commands are "peek %d", "poke %d %d" and "go %d". 
> Downloading code goes through the poke command.

Yes, that might work, but it's slow. I would prefer S-record
download. Just hit "load" on the debugging terminal, and then
download the stuff over the other line.

> >   Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
> >   One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
> >   A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
> >   in case we don't have a parallel port.

> I think that you are right here: two ports is not a bad investment 
> after all. The first goes to a mouse, the second is quickly used, and
> more are optional. However if a 4 port chip is available, I wouldn't
> object .....

Is there a four port chip ?

> Agree, but I'd really be disappointed if I couldn't make one of
> those ports run at least 38400Kbits/sec.  My primary network
> connection would be a V.32bis/V.42bis modem, as this thing would
> reside in my spare bedroom.

Of course, 38.4k is *definitly* a must.


keyboard controller
-------------------

> > * Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.
> Disagree, if it's a card in the pc then hook up a cable from pc's serial
> port to card's serial port and voila you've got a terminal.

You got me a bit wrong. I wasn't happy with the pc card solution.
A workstation is much more what I want, but we should not try
to make a high-end thing.


SCSI / IDE
-----------

> > * SCSI. This is a *must*.
> >   I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

> Here is where you start calling it a workstation.  Actually, I
> agree.  SCSI is the _most_ important I/O to me.

Either it's a pc card or it's a workstation. Is there something
in between ? I don't like pc cards, so it must be a workstation :-)

> If you're buying a new disk drive, the difference is negligible.  I
> don't have any IDE disk drives lying around, maybe others do.  If
> you're buying a tape drive or a CD-ROM drive SCSI is certainly
> preferable, and I don't think we have room for the connectors for
> both.

I agree. Even my Linux box at home has never seen any IDE stuff.

> I can't understand why SCSI is preferred to IDE, at least not very
> definitely!  I know that one can connect a lot of different stuffs
> on the SCSI bus, but other than hard disk and tape drive, what are
> the items that will be of interest to majority people (or customers)?
> I'm now owning a total of 500MB IDE hard disk space, and I will be
> very happy if I can use it on the MIPS system.

Simple. There's much more than disk and tape drives you can
connect to SCSI. There are scanners, terminal servers, FPGA-
programmers, dsp cards and whatever. SCSI is much more than
just a mass storage interface. IDE is cheaper for the first
disk, perhaps still for the second one but finally SCSI is the
winner. 


ETHERNET
--------

> > * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
> >   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

> I'd like to have it, but I could live without.  As I said, my
> primary network connection would be a modem.

My idea behind on-board ethernet is not to have because it's
essentially necessary but because it would cost around $30
on-board but at least $150 off-board in form of an ISA-card.
I would *definitly* have to buy another ethernet adapter.

video
-----

> > 
> > * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

> OK I did laugh, you seem to contradict yourself: you regard SCSI&Ethernet as
> an important thing and video not? Nowadays my picture of a workstation is
> running xwindows with a big monitor  (Well at *LEAST* 1024*768 >70Hz) It
> seems that video keeps this group active. :-)

I have the same idea of a workstation. No video on board doesn't
mean no video at all.

> Decent performance is the issue, standard off the shelf (==cheap vga) 
> doesn't stack up in performance against workstation performance, and
> I'm certainly not comparing against top of the line!

Ok, you're right.

> > Yes, I know, it would be slower. The ray tracing guy
> > (sorry, I've forgotten your name) will kill me, but:
> > Please, go ahead and buy a SGI Indigo. We will never ever
> > reach the graphic performance of such a machine, not
> > with a 75MHz R4400 and not with tons of off-the-shelf
> > pseudo-intelligent video-controller stuff.
> >
> This is not what we (I guess) want: we want a reasonable performance for
> a reasonable price.

This is exactly what I want too.

> Well video is still important to me.

It's important to me too. I just have tried to find a solution
with low overhead and small design tasks.


> Fast graphics is a must for me. It is one of the reasons why I'd buy
> such a thing. I think that an onboard dumb frame buffer is the best
> solution. Using a conventional ISA VGA card will be slower (probably
> even with accelerator), and VESA local bus or some other interface for
> high performance graphics cards will be difficult. I think we should
> put our brains into a clean design, not into workarounds for intel
> braindamage.

> A dumb frame buffer on board, 8 bits per pixel, with no multiple
> scan frequencies (pick one when you buy the crystal).  That's high
> enough on enough people's wish lists to justify.  The parts count
> and board space don't seem too much to me.

Ok, looks like we come closer to a decision. I don't mind if
there's an on-board frame buffer. But it should be dumb, without
any "intelligence". What's about 8bit 768x1024 non-interlaced, 70 Hz ?
Most mid-class monitors can handle that. Please remember: Not
everybody has a $2000 Eizo Multisync !


SOUND
-----

> > * Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

> I don't care at all.  I wouldn't give much board space to it.

Ok. I wouldn't mind even if there's no beep !
Sound skipped ?


ISA BUS
-------

> > * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
> >   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

> I think we need some kind of I/O bus. ISA is nice for people who
> already have ISA cards or prefer to buy hardware instead of designing
> it. A simple proprietary bus may be better for the hardware gurus (and
> chaeper). I am not sure what I would prefer, but I am leaning more
> towards the ISA bus. I would keep the number of slots small, however
> (max. 3). 

A proprietary bus is *definitly* no solution.
If we need any kind of expansion bus, ISA is a good choice.

> The no DMA, no bus master, no 8/16 bit detection are good ideas
> worth discussing.  The original PC/XT bus was simple enough you
> could probably implement it with a couple of 22V10's and the
> IDT3730.  In that case, it would make more sense than an ad hoc
> expansion bus that has no market.
> Of course, I'm only guessing about the capabilities of the IDT3730.
> Sure would like to have a data book for that!

If we have all the high-bandwith stuff on board, eg. SCSI and
Ethernet, there's in fact no need for bus-master and dma stuff. 
What could be still needed ? If video is on the motherboard (seems that
most people want that), one might add: more serial lines,
a soundcard, a midi i/o card and the like. Nothing with high bandwith.
(I'm not sure wether soundcards need DMA or not).

I'll try get a 3730 databook.


Again, I'll summarize:

* 40 MHz 3051E/3081E, perhaps R4K2.
* 16 standard SIMM slots for memory sizes
  from 8 Meg (with 1Mx9 modules) to 64 Meg (4Mx9 modules)
  or
  8 72pin SIMM slots for memory sizes from 8 Meg (4 x 512k x 36bit)
  to 64 Meg (8 x 2M x 36bit).
* 2 serial ports.
* One parallel port or one extra serial port.
* SCSI controller
* Ethernet controller
* Keyboard controller
* Realtime clock
* on board 8bit color video, at least 1024x768, 70 Hz.
* 2 or 3 ISA slots, without DMA and busmaster stuff.

Cheers,
Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas Busse             | e-mail: andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de (home)
Eislebenstrasse 5         |         andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (office)
D-5300 Bonn 1             | Phone:  +49 (0)228-252687
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  2 08:25:08 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA01543; Fri, 2 Jul 93 08:25:06 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA15286; Fri, 2 Jul 93 05:23:08 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA10608; Fri, 2 Jul 93 05:22:52 -0700
Received: from mail.Germany.EU.net 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA15282; Fri, 2 Jul 93 05:22:52 -0700
Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net(EUnetD-2.3.0.e) via EUnet
	id UF14776; Fri, 2 Jul 1993 14:19:53 +0200
Received: from resi 
	by wegy.waldorf-gmbh.de with SMTP (5.61/GEN-1.0.7)
	via EUnet for unido
	id AA15900; Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:01:36 +0200
From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:00:09 +0200
Message-Id: <9307021200.AA05148@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Received: by resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (5.61/GEN-1.0.7)
	via EUnet for wegy.waldorf-gmbh.de
	id AA05148; Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:00:09 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: What do we *really* want ?
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Dear Mipsers !

First, this is nothing personally. Second, I do believe
that everything we have discussed here was substantial,
and technically important.

But: I think it's time to lay back, cool down and think
about WHAT DO WE REALLY WANT ?

Remember, the whole thing started as an ISA card with
CPU, some RAM and a way to use the rest of a PC as
I/O subsystem, right ?

Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.

All I want is that we don't come into that well-known
techno-junk-two-week-loop-and-never-ending-story.
Probably you'll know this:

Kill the engineer to finish the design !

Unfortunally, we are about 30 engineers...
I don't like to kill anyone and certainly not 30 people !

So please let us start from the beginning.

Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:

* A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
  They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
  If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.

* Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
  those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
  right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
  the good old x9 modules.
  I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.

* Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.

* Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
  two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
  code.
  Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
  One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
  A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
  in case we don't have a parallel port.

* Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
  cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
  and the printer port is ready.

* SCSI. This is a *must*.
  I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

* IDE. This is an *option*.
  We do not really need it, although it would make the
  complete machine cheaper.

* Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
  "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

* Real time clock. This is a *must* too.

* Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

* Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.

* Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.

* Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

* ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
  Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

Ok, my idea is the following: We design the complete
machine, preferably without any video stuff. I could imagine
that we provide a simple dma channel for monochrome video
with a resolution and timing which a standard VGA monitor
can handle. But even this is not really necessary.
And we provide exactly one ISA slot for an off-the-shelf
VGA card. No provisions for dma, bus master stuff, no
8/16 bit detection and all that. That ISA slot must provide
all signals necessary for controlling a VGA card and
nothing else.

This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
X11-driver nor do we have the trouble with timings which
most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.

Yes, I know, it would be slower. The ray tracing guy
(sorry, I've forgotten your name) will kill me, but:
Please, go ahead and buy a SGI Indigo. We will never ever
reach the graphic performance of such a machine, not
with a 75MHz R4400 and not with tons of off-the-shelf
pseudo-intelligent video-controller stuff.

A nice story about mips's and "intelligent" video:
When Mips Inc. introduced the Magnum 4000 workstation
last year (I have one of these rare things), they
thought about using a SPEA video card with an i860
on-board. After some benchmarking with this and some
dumb cards they have thrown out the i860. Letting the
R4000 doing video itself was faster than telling the
i860 what it should do. Believe it or not...

I'll summarize:

* 40 MHz 3051E/3081E, perhaps R4K2.
* 16 standard SIMM slots for memory sizes
  from 8 Meg (with 1Mx9 modules) to 64 Meg (4Mx9 modules).
* 2 serial ports.
* One parallel port or one extra serial port.
* SCSI controller
* Ethernet controller
* Keyboard controller
* Realtime clock
* No video, monochrome video if people mind.
* One ISA slot for a VGA card of your choice.
STOP. Nothing else.

You're missing something ? Well, you still have
your old Intel box. Get a coax cable and connect
it with your new Mips box !

Hmm. I'm looking forward for your bombs :-)

Bye,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl  Ukn Jul  2 09:12:40 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA02846; Fri, 2 Jul 93 09:12:38 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA19977; Fri, 2 Jul 93 06:10:37 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA17019; Fri, 2 Jul 93 06:10:27 -0700
Received: from csunix.urc.kun.nl 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA19969; Fri, 2 Jul 93 06:10:28 -0700
Received: by csunix.urc.kun.nl (5.64/1.37)
	id AA02287; Fri, 2 Jul 93 15:06:34 +0200
From: ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl (Ronald Schalk)
Message-Id: <9307021306.AA02287@csunix.urc.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
To: riscy@pyramid.com (project riscy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 15:06:29 +0200 (CET)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 6346      
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Dear Mipsers !
> 
> But: I think it's time to lay back, cool down and think
> about WHAT DO WE REALLY WANT ?

I can't agree more
> 
> Remember, the whole thing started as an ISA card with
> CPU, some RAM and a way to use the rest of a PC as
> I/O subsystem, right ?

That's still what I prefer, just a card that pops in my pc.
> 
> Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
> with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
> ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
> That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.
> 
> Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:
> 
> * A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
>   They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
>   If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.
I agree
> 
> * Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>   those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>   right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>   the good old x9 modules.
>   I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.
OK

> * Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.
Disagree, if it's a card in the pc then hook up a cable from pc's serial
port to card's serial port and voila you've got a terminal.

> * Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
>   two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
>   code.
>   Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
>   One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
>   A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
>   in case we don't have a parallel port.
Yep, see above
> * Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
>   cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
>   and the printer port is ready.
> * SCSI. This is a *must*.
>   I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...
> * IDE. This is an *option*.
>   We do not really need it, although it would make the
>   complete machine cheaper.
> * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.
> * Real time clock. This is a *must* too.
In general YES

> 
> * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

OK I did laugh, you seem to contradict yourself: you regard SCSI&Ethernet as
an important thing and video not? Nowadays my picture of a workstation is
running xwindows with a big monitor  (Well at *LEAST* 1024*768 >70Hz) It
seems that video keeps this group active. :-)

> 
> * Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.
I keep laughing (well smiling actually), but I've got a color monitor, so
I want colors.
> 
> * Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.
Ok, it's an option. But VERY high on my wish list.
> 
> * Sound I/O. This is an *option*.
OK
> 
> * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?
> 
> Ok, my idea is the following: We design the complete
> machine, preferably without any video stuff. I could imagine
> that we provide a simple dma channel for monochrome video
> with a resolution and timing which a standard VGA monitor
> can handle. But even this is not really necessary.
> And we provide exactly one ISA slot for an off-the-shelf
> VGA card. No provisions for dma, bus master stuff, no
> 8/16 bit detection and all that. That ISA slot must provide
> all signals necessary for controlling a VGA card and
> nothing else.

Decent performance is the issue, standard off the shelf (==cheap vga) 
doesn't stack up in performance against workstation performance, and
I'm certainly not comparing against top of the line!

> 
> This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
> X11-driver nor do we have the trouble with timings which
> most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.
>
It's been said before, some people like writing device drivers.
 
> Yes, I know, it would be slower. The ray tracing guy
> (sorry, I've forgotten your name) will kill me, but:
> Please, go ahead and buy a SGI Indigo. We will never ever
> reach the graphic performance of such a machine, not
> with a 75MHz R4400 and not with tons of off-the-shelf
> pseudo-intelligent video-controller stuff.
>
This is not what we (I guess) want: we want a reasonable performance for
a reasonable price.

 
> A nice story about mips's and "intelligent" video:
> When Mips Inc. introduced the Magnum 4000 workstation
> last year (I have one of these rare things), they
> thought about using a SPEA video card with an i860
> on-board. After some benchmarking with this and some
> dumb cards they have thrown out the i860. Letting the
> R4000 doing video itself was faster than telling the
> i860 what it should do. Believe it or not...
>
I believe it, the R4K is *EXTREMELY* brute force.
 
> I'll summarize:
> 
> * 40 MHz 3051E/3081E, perhaps R4K2.
> * 16 standard SIMM slots for memory sizes
>   from 8 Meg (with 1Mx9 modules) to 64 Meg (4Mx9 modules).
> * 2 serial ports.
> * One parallel port or one extra serial port.
> * SCSI controller
> * Ethernet controller
> * Keyboard controller
> * Realtime clock
> * No video, monochrome video if people mind.
> * One ISA slot for a VGA card of your choice.
> STOP. Nothing else.

Well video is still important to me.

> 
> You're missing something ? Well, you still have
> your old Intel box. Get a coax cable and connect
> it with your new Mips box !
> 
> Hmm. I'm looking forward for your bombs :-)

Ok this was a soft bomb :-)

> Bye,
> Andy
> Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
> c/o Andreas Busse
> Neustrasse 9-12
> D-5481 Waldorf
> Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
> Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
> e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de

Greetings
Ronald Schalk

 ********************************************************************
 * ing. Ronald Schalk                                               *
 * sectie COOS                                                      *
 * Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening (UCI)                 *
 * Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (KUN)                           *
 * e-mail : R.Schalk@uci.kun.nl   snailmail: Geert Grooteplein 41   *
 * tel.   : +31 80 617993                    6525 GA Nijmegen       *
 * fax   :  +31 80 617979                    Nederland              *
 ********************************************************************
 

 
From hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  Ukn Jul  2 09:37:48 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA03838; Fri, 2 Jul 93 09:37:39 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA20934; Fri, 2 Jul 93 06:36:13 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA18531; Fri, 2 Jul 93 06:35:55 -0700
Received: from gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA20914; Fri, 2 Jul 93 06:35:53 -0700
Received: by gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at id AA03671
  (5.64+/IDA-1.3.4 for riscy@pyramid.com); Fri, 2 Jul 93 15:33:39 +0200
From: Peter Holzer <hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307021333.AA03671@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 15:33:38 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <9307021200.AA05148@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 2, 93 2:00 pm
Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

You (Andreas Busse) wrote:

[Lots of stuff I agree with]
> 
> * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

For me this is an option. I'd like to have ethernet, but I don't need
it on board. You can put ethernet on the I/O bus, since it doesn't need
high bandwidth.

> * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.
> 
> * Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.
> 
> * Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.

Fast graphics is a must for me. It is one of the reasons why I'd buy
such a thing. I think that an onboard dumb frame buffer is the best
solution. Using a conventional ISA VGA card will be slower (probably
even with accelerator), and VESA local bus or some other interface for
high performance graphics cards will be difficult. I think we should
put our brains into a clean design, not into workarounds for intel
braindamage.

> * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

I think we need some kind of I/O bus. ISA is nice for people who
already have ISA cards or prefer to buy hardware instead of designing
it. A simple proprietary bus may be better for the hardware gurus (and
chaeper). I am not sure what I would prefer, but I am leaning more
towards the ISA bus. I would keep the number of slots small, however
(max. 3). 

> This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
> X11-driver

But this will be the most fun.

> nor do we have the trouble with timings which
> most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.

This could be a problem. But I need a new monitor anyway :-)

	hp

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |

 
From a080700@hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk  Ukn Jul  2 22:14:56 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA26068; Fri, 2 Jul 93 22:14:43 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA23597; Fri, 2 Jul 93 19:13:15 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA05190; Fri, 2 Jul 93 19:12:04 -0700
Received: from hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA23300; Fri, 2 Jul 93 19:11:46 -0700
Message-Id: <9307030211.AA23300@gossip.pyramid.com>
Received: by hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk
	(16.8/16.2) id AA21219; Sat, 3 Jul 93 10:09:47 +0800
From: Stephen S M Wong <a080700@hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk>
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
To: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (Andreas Busse)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 10:09:47 HKT
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: <9307021200.AA05148@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 2, 93 2:00 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Risciers,

>Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:
>
>* A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
>  They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
>  If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.

Okay 3081E should be a good enough chip for me, and R4.2K is
even better, but have to wait.

>* Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>  those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>  right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>  the good old x9 modules.
>  I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.

I want no more than 32MB at the moment, but who knows what the
typical setting 1/2 year (or 1 year) latter!

>* Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.

It should be easy to use 8041/8051 AT compatible keyboard, use it.

>* Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
>  two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
>  code.
>  Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
>  One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
>  A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
>  in case we don't have a parallel port.

Agree.

>* Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
>  cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
>  and the printer port is ready.

But I prefer a parallel port to a third serial port.

>* SCSI. This is a *must*.
>  I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

Why?  (Refer to IDE part)

>* IDE. This is an *option*.
>  We do not really need it, although it would make the
>  complete machine cheaper.

I can't understand why SCSI is preferred to IDE, at least not very
definitely!  I know that one can connect a lot of different stuffs
on the SCSI bus, but other than hard disk and tape drive, what are
the items that will be of interest to majority people (or customers)?
I'm now owning a total of 500MB IDE hard disk space, and I will be
very happy if I can use it on the MIPS system.

Personally, I don't object to on-board SCSI, but just would like
to be fair, why SCSI is a must, but IDE is an option.  For the same
analogy to dumb frame buffer, SCSI hard disk does NOT necessary
outperform IDE one, the intelligence of SCSI may not be justifiable,
the bottle neck may be on the spinning speed of the disk, and nothing
to do with interface.  Moreover, someone told me that there would be
1GB IDE hard disk for sale recently, and this fact will once again
lead us to rethink whether IDE is a cheaper (and still usable)
interface.

>* Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>  "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

You haven't mention whether your Ethernet is on-board or not.  If you
say Ethernet is a must for a workstation, I agree.  But I can't find
a reason why Ethernet has to be on board, I prefer Ethernet to be on
external I/O bus.

>* Real time clock. This is a *must* too.

Okay, if we can find a RTC chip with some NVRAM, it will be fine to
have it.

>* Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

I agree, but I think the majority of people (or customers) would attach
a display monitor to the system (rather than using a terminal), and
since we agree to stick a keyboard controller on board, it will be more
complete to have some preliminary video stuff on board.

>* Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.

What?  You like monochrome video, what's the cost difference in
implementing color vs monochrom?  Will it be actually harder to find
parts to do monochrom nowadays?

>* Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.
>
>* Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

Okay, it's a nice to have option.

>* ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>  Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

If we agree to do ISA bus, than a lot of the above will become
options.  But if ISA cards are noway in the new system, than I
think a lot of people (at least me) will 2nd thought before
commiting a few hundred US$ to buy a board, since I have to
make it very sure what I want is all on board!  ISA bus is part
of success factors in PC and so did slots in Apple ][.  The
wealth of different expansion cards is an essential buffer to
let different customers to tailor the system to fit their
needs.  And I think this rule still holds at the moment.

>This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
>X11-driver nor do we have the trouble with timings which
>most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.

I doubt, since the architecture difference between Intel and MIPS
processors is significant, and we'll likely to deal with an I/O
processor (3041?) or 3730, the X11 driver may have to be rewrite,
although not wholely, anyway.

--
*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*
v Stephen Wong Siu-ming    v internet: stephenwong@cuhk.hk  v
^ Computer Services Center ^ bitnet  : a080700@cucsc.bitnet ^
* Chinese University of    * phone   : (852) 609-8904       *
v Hong Kong                v fax     : (852) 603-5001       v
*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*

 
