From SMACKINLA@cc.curtin.edu.au  Ukn Jul  3 09:26:13 1993
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Date: 03 Jul 1993 21:24:47 +0800
From: Pat Mackinlay <SMACKINLA@cc.curtin.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SCSI chips, specifically NCR53c{,f}9x family
To: drew@nagina.cs.Colorado.EDU
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
Message-Id: <01H04BO6JM3MFUN6X0@cc.curtin.edu.au>
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Status: RO
X-Status: 


>Ok, I called NCR's SCSI division, got some literature on the 53c90 
>series, saw that the 53c90 looks like what we wanted, and talked to
>the local NCR distributor, Electrodyne (303)-695-903 for pricing
>information.

Good one. I believe that the 53c94 may actually be a slightly improved 
version of the '90, with some relaxed timing requirements and miscellaneous 
bug fixes. Do you have any info on the '94?

>The host/DMA interface is 8 bits wide, so it's best on an 
>8 bit bus of the 3730.

Some friends of mine were did an ARM-based machine similar to what we're 
aiming at here, and they used some variant of this NCR chip. A neat trick 
they were able to use was to attach the DREQ/DACK signals to the regular 
bus I/O signals, and use the LDM/STM (load/store multiple registers) 
instructions to do "fake" DMA. The ARM only has 16 registers, so they could 
do a maximum of 32 (16 x 2) bytes at once, but it was still significantly 
faster than doing it across the regular 8 bit bus.

Sorry I can't tell you about the 3730's DMA interface. Seeing as the TLB is 
on the CPU, it probably doesn't support any kind of scatter-gather. I know 
DEC used the 53cf94 in some of their MIPS-based machines - anyone know how 
they dealt with the problem there? Personally, I don't think it's such a 
problem. I had first hand experience of the Seagate scatter-gather 
performance improvement (thanks Drew <grin>), but suspect that it wouldn't 
be so drastic with this chip (much more intelligent/faster setup phases).

So, I think the question now is: do we try and attach it to a DMA channel, 
or do we just make it a PIO device? If we have a dedicated I/O controller 
(3041), there's no real choice to be made. If we use a 3730, however, I 
think it's an important point to consider.

Pat -- "There's only one thing left to do Mama, I got to ding a ding dang
	my dang a long ling long" (Jesus Built My Hotrod -- Ministry)
GCS d* -p+ c++ l++ m--- s+/- !g w- t- r

 
From drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  3 19:30:50 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com, tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 02 Jul 1993 09:04:52 CDT."
             <9307021404.AA23217@ubitrex.mb.ca> 
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 17:29:46 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

    > Tommy Thorn writes:
    > > I've just got access to a decstation, and I'm trying to find
    > > out how much is missing before a crosscompilation enviroment is
    > > a reality.
    > I seem to recall that DEC changed the endian-ness of the MIPS on the
    > decstations, so as to be more compatible with VAXes. If so, the tools
    > will not be compatible with the 'real' MIPs tools.
    > 
    > 		Andy..
    > 
    
    
    The MIPS and SGI boxes configured the MIPs chips for big-endian.  DEC
    configured the MIPs chips in the DECstations as little-endian, to match
    the VAX.  Which also matches the PDP-11.  It so happens that Intel made 
    the 8085/8088/80386 little-endian as well.  So linux is little-endian,
    and we may want to make linux/MIPs little-endian, to reduce portability
    problems (file system structures, etc).

The only problem you get by having MIPS / i386 Linuxen be different endianness
are that their filesystems aren't interchangeable.  IMHO, since you aren't
going to run a i386 binary on a MIPs... this isn't a real problem.

I think that MIPs Linux should be Big Endian, because the MIPs SYSV ABI
is big endian and this lets us run commercial MIPS ABI applications.


 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  3 21:24:56 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040124.AA01954@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: New mailing list software
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 18:24:06 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

MajorDomo, a mailing list server has been installed at Pyramid.  This
server will maintain a mailing list automatically.

The only change the members of the riscy mailing list should see is the
addition of a 'Reply-To' line in the header, refering to the list
directly.

To try features of the list server, mail:

	To: mailserv@pyramid.com
	Subject: <subject is ignored>

	help

You will receive a reply detailing how to use the server.

If there are any problems, mail:

	riscy-approval@pyramid.com
		or
	caret@pyramid.com

Either address will get to me.
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 00:25:28 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040424.AA17743@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: General issues
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:24:29 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

Much discussion on the list has resulted in most people almost agreeing
with everyone else.  There are still small differences which reflect
each person's intended use of this system.  A final solution will not
result unless everyone is willing to compromise.

Many of the small details, such as how many serial ports, parallel
ports, floppy, etc have essentially been voted on.  The major issues
however must now be resolved.  Below is a list of topics that must
be resolved before we can start to create schematics:

	*  Peripheral controller
		Should we use the IDT 79R3730, or design our own?
		Should we use a IDT 79R3041 CPU as an I/O controller?
	*  Should we have an ISA bus or a simpler bus?
		ISA is more practical, but a new simple 8-bit bus is
		cheaper and free of the ISA IBM-ness.
	*  Should we have SCSI?
		SCSI for this board will probably be much cheaper and
		probably faster than something like Adaptec.
	*  Should we have video?
		Video is looking to be the most expensive option on
		the whole board, but some say its essential.
	*  Should we have ethernet?

Other issues such as keyboard, RTC, NVRAM, serial, parallel, floppy
disk drives, ISDN, SNA, T1 and the Coke machine interface are not that
important until these issues are resolved.  Please address yourselves
to these issues so that we can come to a decision in the next week or
so.


Thanks,
	Neil.
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 00:26:02 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040425.AA17771@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Should we provide ISA bus support?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:25:13 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

In general, most people want ISA.  There are one or two people
that would rather have a simple, 'riscy' specific, cheap 8-bit bus.
Then there is the issue of how many ISA sockets to provide?


No external bus at all:

Advantages:
	*  Very cheap
Disadvantages:
	*  Make expansion rather difficult


R3000 specific high bandwidth bus (local bus?):

Advantages:
	*  Peripherals that we add later can go fast.
Disadvantages:
	*  Designing a high speed expander bus is problematical
	   (lots of wave calculations)
	*  Connectors for high speed busses are expensive.
	*  No cards available, unless we make them.


R3000 specific slow speed 8-bit bus:

Advantages:
	*  Cheap, small connectors
	*  Easy to provide for on the motherboard
	*  Simple to make cards for
Disadvantages:
	*  No cards available, unless we make them


ISA bus:

Advantages:
	*  Supports many, many peripherals
	*  Allows other options for video on the motherboard
	*  Allows other options if SCSI is not used
Disadvantages:
	*  Large connectors are not the cheapest (though given the quantities
	   those things are made in, they probably are cheap)
	*  Will could not hope to support everything ISA (such as bus-
	   mastering mode, and maybe the bus sizing stuff).
	*  Uses lots of board space



A full AT ISA bus implementation provides:
	*  8-bit or 16-bit data path
	*  Flexible throttling mechanism (automatic wait state generator)
	*  Slave and Master DMA modes
	*  Automatic 16 to 8-bit translation.
	*  8.33 MHz clock rate

Of these features, the master DMA is probably the hardest to provide
since it requires access to the main memory.  Without this, there doesn't
need to be any logic to handle an extra master DMA on the main memory
(bi-directional data buffers, bus size conversion, uni-directional
address buffers, control logic).

The 16 to 8-bit translation is a convenience for the programmer that
allows a 16 bit access to an 8-bit card; it can be programmed around.

Slave DMA can be easily attached to the 3730.  The 3730 already provides
this type of DMA.  To the software, programming a DMA would be different;
to the hardware, there is no change.

As for DMA to the 3041, the 3041 would need to take an active role in
it, like it would with any DMA.  This would be fine.

The throttling is something that could be turned to our advantage.  If
were to increase the speed of the ISA bus clock to 10 or 20 MHz, and
provide for this in the wait state generation, we could get more speed
to any future peripherals that we design while maintaining compatibility
to existing cards.  (I have not researched this; there may be a very
good reason why this won't work).

If we are really clever, we could provide a simple write buffer on the
ISA bus that would allow the CPU to continue while the write completed.

(Note:  The 16 MB memory limit is not a problem if there is no memory
	provided on the bus and there are no Master DMA cards wanting to
	access main memory.)


How many sockets to provide?


This is a question of how much board space we have and what others
think.

Personally, I'd like to see four.  Apart from being a nice round number,
most machines I've seen have eight sockets.  One is usually crippled,
because its in a bad position, or doesn't have the 16-bit part of
the socket, leaving seven.  We have SCSI, video and serial on the
motherboard, reducing the required ISA bus card count by three.  I've
made some assumptions here, biased by person opinion.


Comments?
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 00:27:24 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040426.AA17803@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Main CPU and Peripheral controller
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:26:15 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

In my original design, I had planned to use the IDT 79R3730 "Raster
Image Processor".  IDT's intended market for the device is the
Laser Printer market, however the chip lends itself to our design
quite nicely.  In the 1992/1993 Data Book entitled "RISC Microprocessor
Components & SubSystems", there is Advance information on the 3730.
The following is copied from it:

  FEATURES:
	*  Integrated System Controller(TM) for the IDT R3051
	   family Raster Image Processors and Laser Printer
	   Controllers:
	     -  Direct interface to R3041, R3051, R3052 and R3081
	     -  Supports clock frequencies to 40 MHz.
	*  High-Performance, programmable DRAM controller:
	     -  Flexible DRAM control for up to 128 MB of two-way
		interleaved or non-interleaved DRAM (up to 8 banks)
	     -  Wide variety of memory configurations (eg. different
		sized DRAMs for base and SIMM extensions)
	     -  DMA channel for memory pattern fill/clear
	     -  DRAM parity generation/checking
	*  Programmable I/O ports support glue-less interface to
	   support low-cost peripherals:
	     -  Burst DMA channels with chaining
	     -  On-chip 4-word x 32-bit FIFOs with data packing
		and unpacking
	     -  Master/slave peripheral interface
	     -  8-bit and 16-bit I/O ports.
	*  Co-processor DMA interface for accelerator ASICs
	   (eg. Adobe's Type 1 font rasterizer and PixelBurst(TM)
	   display list processor)
	*  Programmable Interrupt Controller
	*  High-performance programmable video interface
	     -  1, 2 or 4 serial video streams support high video
		bandwidth (bi-level or 4-bit color)
	     -  Video DMA channels with chaining
	     -  On-chip 8-word x 32-bit video FIFO
	     -  Programmable margin counters
	     -  Video bit rates to 160 mega-bits per second
	     -  Supports split stream video
	     -  PEL counter
	*  Controls for ROM memory system
	     -  Programmable controls for up to 24 MB of interleaved
		or non-interleaved ROM/EPROM (up to 6 banks)
	     -  Burst ROM/EPROM support
	     -  Glue-less interface for 8-bit boot ROM or EPROM
	*  General purpose functions
	     -  Bus timeout counter
	     -  Rotate assist (0, 90, 180, 270 degrees and mirror)
		hard-ware
	     -  General purpose counter/timer
	     -  Bit programmable I/O port.


To rephrase all this into what this means for us:

	*  Our DRAM interface can be two-way interleaved (which means
	   that 64-bits of memory are accessed each memory cycle, so
	   that the CPU will have the data for its next read already
	   in the data buffers, which reduces every second access to
	   1-cycle instead of about 6-cycles), DRAM page mode and
	   early-write modes can be taken advantage of to further
	   speed up access.
	*  The interface to the DRAM is reduced to a handful of
	   buffers and bi-directional latches; there is no logic
	   for address decoding.
	*  DRAM refresh is taken care of.
	*  There are two extra busses provided by the 3730:  an
	   8-bit one and a 16-bit one.  Each bus has a small address
	   bus in addition to its data bus.  The processor can
	   access devices on these busses directly with the 3730 taking
	   care of the data-size/endian issue automatically.  If
	   a DMA is setup to a device on one of these busses, the
	   main memory bus is not held up waiting for the slower
	   devices to respond.  The 3730 will do a burst DMA into
	   main memory whenever there is sufficient data.
	*  Any of the DMA channels can be chained, which means (if
	   I understand this correctly) we can do scatter/gather.
	   (All this would make the SCSI interface almost trivial).
	*  Glue for an extend bus (such as ISA) would require very
	   little additional support.


I talked to IDT on Friday (July 2) and have some more information about
the IDT R3730.

First the good news:  They have already made the first production run
of wafers of this chip.  They expect that the chip will be in the
stores :-) by October.  The salesman I spoke to is willing to provide
an information package this week.

Now the bad news:  The chip is only available in a 208 pin FQFP (a
surface mount package).  The pricing is us$50 - us$70 in lots of
5,000.  This would translate to >us$100 for the quantities that
we want.

However, there have been some developments in the last week or so
that may mean that Surface Mount is OK.  More on that as details
are available.


Alternatives
------------

If we cannot use the 3730, there is another alternative that was
thought up by Steven Ligett, Jerry Callen (and Pat Mackinlay?).

This involves creating a DRAM interface between the main CPU and
memory using programmable logic.  This interface would provide:

	*  DRAM address multiplexing
	*  Two-way interleaving
	*  Page mode support
	*  Early write mode support
		(The last three are provided on the special CPU
		 cycles only, such as the instruction cache refill).

There would be a R3041 co-processor connected to the main CPU via a DMA
channel.  The only connection to the outside world for the main CPU
would be this co-processor.

Information copied from the IDT data book on the 3041:

   FEATURES:
	*  Instruction set compatible with IDT 79R3000A and R3051(TM)
	   family RISC CPUs
	*  High level of integration minimizes system cost:
	     -  RISC CPU
	     -  Multiply/divide unit
	     -  Instruction cache
	     -  Data cache
	     -  Programmable bus interface
	     -  Programmable port width support
	*  On-chip instruction and data caches:
	     -  2 KB of instruction cache
	     -  512 bytes of data cache
	*  Flexible bus interface allows simple, low cost designs
	     -  Superset pin-compatible with R3051
	     -  Adds programmable port width interface
		(8-bit, 16-bit and 32-bit memory sub-regions)
	     -  Adds programmable bus interface timing support
		(Extended address hold, bus turn around time,
		 read/write masks)
	*  Single, double frequency clock input
	*  16 or 20 MHz operation
	*  14 MIPS at 20 MHz
	*  Low cost 84-pin PLCC packaging
	*  On-chip 4-deep write buffer eliminates memory write stalls
	*  On-chip 4-word read buffer supports burst or simple block reads
	*  On-chip DMA arbiter
	*  On-chip 24-bit timer
	*  Boot from 8-bit, 16-bit or 32-bit wide boot ROMs

The 3041 essentially does in software what the 3730 does in hardware,
with the added flexibility that its very programmable.  As an example,
if the 3041 was given a scatter/gather SCSI disk access to do, it
would read/write the data directly top the SCSI port, and write/read
the data to the appropriate location in the main CPUs memory.


Some costings:

    3730:
	3730	about $120 or more (see above)
	glue	about $10 (buffers, latches, one of two PALs)

    3041:
	3041	about $35
	glue	about $30 (buffer, latches, lots of PALs)
	memory	about $45 (maybe those old 256K SIMMS?)


Advantages of 3730:
	-  Single chip does almost everything
	-  Not much R&D to get it going
Disadvantages of 3730:
	-  Cost (maybe; can't tell until October)
	-  Availability
Advantages of 3041:
	-  Parts are available now
	-  Cost
	-  More programmable (RISC does it in software approach)
Disadvantages of 3041:
	-  More R&D
	-  Lots of hard real time software to write
	-  More board space needed.

(Note:  If video is provided on the motherboard and connected to the 3041,
        then maybe some of the unused space in the VRAM could be used as
	program memory for the 3041, further reducing the cost.)


My opinion is that we should dump the 3730 and use the 3041 approach.
The cost of the extra board space is offset by the reduction in cost
of the sub-system, and the parts are available *now*.


Comments?


For you interest, this is the blurb for the R3081 (the proposed main CPU):

    FEATURES:
	*  Instruction set compatible with IDT 79R3000A, R3051 and
	   R3500 RISC CPUs
	*  High level of integration minimizes system cost
	     -  R3000A Compatible CPU
	     -  R3010A Compatible FPU
	     -  Optional R3000A compatible MMU [E suffix - ed]
	     -  Large instruction cache
	     -  Large data cache
	     -  Read/write buffers
	*  35 VUPS at 40 MHz
	     -  64,000 Dhrystones
	     -  11 MFlops
	*  Flexible bus interface allows simple, low cost designs
	*  Optional 1x or 2x clock input
	*  20, 25, 33 or 40 MHz operation
	*  "L" version operates at 3.3V [this saves power - ed]
	*  Large on-chip caches with user configurability
	     -  16 KB Instruction cache, 4 KB data cache
	     -  Dynamically configurable to 8 KB instruction cache
		and 8 KB data cache
	     -  Parity protection over data and tag fields
	*  Low cost 84-pin packaging
	*  Super-set compatible with the R3051
	*  Multiplexed bus interface with support for low-cost,
	   low-speed memory systems with a high speed CPU
	*  On-chip 4-deep write buffer eliminates memory write stalls
	*  On-chip 4-deep read buffer supports burst or simple block reads
	*  On-chip DMA arbiter
	*  Hardware-based cache coherency support [snooping cache - ed]
	*  Programmable power reduction mode
	*  Bus interface can operate at half-processor frequency
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 00:27:39 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040426.AA17826@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Video on the motherboard
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:26:46 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
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The question is whether to put the video on the motherboard or not.

Many (most?) of the people interested in this board want to make a
nice fast workstation.  Any good workstation has fast, big colourfull
video.  The issue here is just how do you get that glossy video
and how much to pay for it.

Its true that the video will be the most expensive optional part or
the board, coming in at about $100.  I offer some alternatives.

First, video on the board:

	*  1 MB of Video RAM (supports 1024x1024 8-bits per pixel;
	   better resolutions if 1,2 or 4-bits per pixel are used)
		or
	   2 MB of Video RAM (supports 1280x1024 8-bits per pixel)
	*  TI 34076 RAMDAC (has pixel multiplexing, 256 out of 2^16 colors).
	*  NSC 1882 (generates Video sync, and DMA requests.?)

If the peripheral controller is a 3730, then special logic would be
provided to generate the shift register load cycles for the VRAM,
and, of course the main CPU does the video support.  If the peripheral
controller is the 3041, then the VRAM may be connected to either
processor.  If it was connected to the main CPU, the 3041 could still
access the VRAM anyhow, albeit a little slower.  The 3041 could
generate the special VRAM cycles.

Advantages of video on the motherboard:
	*  High bandwidth direct connection to CPU
	*  Linear memory organization (good for software)
Disadvantages:
	*  Adds significant cost to the end price of the motherboard.

For those that don't want the video section, the motherboard could
be sold with empty sockets for the whole video section.  A separate
video add-on package containing the chips to plug in could be put
together.


Video on a VESA or local bus connector:

(I understand that VESA and local bus are the same thing; correct me
 if I'm wrong.)

Advantages of VESA video:
	*  High bandwidth direct connection to CPU
	*  Linear memory organization available
	*  Cards available to do this already
	*  No work for us to design video
Disadvantages of VESA video:
	*  CPU is assumed to be an x86 (hard work to connect to a R3000)
	*  VESA is apparently going to die soon.
	*  VESA and its replacement, PCI, require licenses to use.
	*  Higher total cost than motherboard solution


Video on the ISA bus (assuming there is one):

Advantages of ISA video:
	*  Cheapest video solution
	*  ISA easy to implement
	*  Accelerator cards available that support reasonable speed
	*  Almost everyone already has a ISA video card
	*  Software already exists
	*  No work for us to design video
	*  Cards will be around for a while (ISA will not die soon)
Disadvantages of ISA video:
	*  Still not as fast as direct connect video, even with accelerators
	*  Higher total cost than motherboard solution (if using fast card)
	*  Very complicated interface (VGA)


No video at all:

Advantages:
	*  Cheapest solution of all
Disadvantages:
	*  Must have external terminal
	*  Not as cool!


My personal opinion is that the video should be on the motherboard as
an option.  That is, the video designed and tested, but motherboards
shipped with empty sockets.  I'm one of those that want the really cool
huge colour monitors.


Comments?
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 00:28:10 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040427.AA17852@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Should we have SCSI?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:27:23 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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In my opinion, Adaptec have one of the best SCSI controllers that you
can get for a PC like machine.  Why is it good?  It provides master
DMA, scatter/gather modes, etc.;  In short, all the things that ISA makes
it difficult to get on an x86 machine.  But now we have the option
to do better.


SCSI on the motherboard:

Advantages:
	*  Higher bandwidth available to the SCSI bus gives higher
	   transfer rates and lower latencies
	*  Access to main memory is a 32-bit data path, so consumes
	   half of the main memory bandwidth (assuming the 3730 or
	   3041 DMA)
	*  Much cheaper than a performance ISA SCSI card.
	*  Not limited to first 16 MB of memory
	*  Don't have to provide ISA bus master mode
Disadvantages:
	*  Cost of motherboard goes up (maybe)
	*  More software to write to drive it, especially if we
	   do scatter/gather

If we intend to provide SCSI on ISA rather than the mother board,
we need to provide bus mastering capability to the ISA bus.  I think
that the chip count to do this would be around 10.  The chips would
probably be cheaper than a SCSI controller chip and connector, but they
would need extra board space (most of these chips are buffers
of some kind).  Also, there is a fairly large amount of time required
to design and test such a feature, and then the cost of the SCSI card.

Alternatively, a SCSI controller chip is designed to connect to a
system such as ours and would take relatively little effort to get
going.

Some cost guesses:

    ISA SCSI:
	*  Bus mastering logic:		$10
	*  Board space for logic:	$5
	*  SCSI controller card:	$300
    Motherboard SCSI:
	*  SCSI chip:			$17
	*  Glue logic:			$2
	*  SCSI connector:		$2
	*  Board space for this:	$2


For those wanting SCSI, the motherboard wins hands down.

In my last life, I used a MIPS magnum.  For those that don't know, this
is a MIPS workstation like machine which in our configuration had a
MIPS R3000/R3010 running at 33 MHz, 128 MB of memory, and several giga-
bytes of disk connected to a SCSI controller on the motherboard.
Its subjective performance is still the best I've ever seen, including
the 12 CPU Pyramid R3000 machine with its 35 GB of disk that I'm typing
on now.  Originally I put it down to a good operating system and a
fast CPU.  Now I'm sure that they have some good interface to that
SCSI bus.


Comments?
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 00:28:38 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307040427.AA17875@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Ethernet on the motherboard?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:27:52 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Opinion as to whether Ethernet is needed at all seems to be split
roughly 50-50.  For a good deal of us, this will be a super-fast
workstation in some small desk in the corner of our bedroom.
The only connection to the outside world would probably be a modem.
These people couldn't care less about Ethernet.  Others will connect
this to a small, or large network of workstations, and for them,
Ethernet is absolutely essential.  Others may use this as a diskless
workstation (read X-terminal), and then Ethernet is central.

The real question though is that if an ISA bus is provided, will
a motherboard solution provide so much extra gain in performance to
justify not using an ISA card?

Also, there are many problems getting a reliable Ethernet sub-system
(as some here have suggested).  Do we really want to get involved
with debugging Ethernet hardware?


I have two machines at home: a 386/33 and 486/33, connected by Ethernet.
I can get roughly 300 KB/sec transfer rate between them under the
right conditions.  I am using a WD8003E (Western Digital 8-bit card).
Does this mean that if I put a 16-bit card in I'll get 600KB/sec?
If so, this is getting close to the maximum data rate of Ethernet.
Is the ISA bus the bottleneck for Ethernet?

Assuming that a user's 'riscy' workstation is using motherboard video
and SCSI, then the only heavy user of the ISA bus left is the Ethernet
card.


There is enough bias in the above ramblings to anger anyone who doesn't
agree with me, which is exactly what I want.  Tell me why I'm wrong?
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 09:43:25 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 15:55:09 GMT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
Cc: andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
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Hi Mipsers,

I've got some response (fortunally without flames and bombes)
to my "downgraded spec sheet". Thanks.


General
-------

> > Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
> > with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
> > ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
> > That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.
> > 
> But by the time you reach the end of your list you've not only
> specified a complete workstation, you're calling it that yourself.

See keyboard controller.

CPU
---

> The only information I have on the R4200 is the announcement from
> Byte Magazine that was shared, and that sounded like complete
> Vaporware (tm) to me.  Impossible power specs and a promised
> delivery no sooner than six months in the future?  I wouldn't hold
> my breath waiting for that one.  On the other hand, I _would_ hold
> my breath waiting for the IDT3730.  That one would reduce the parts
> count and increase the probability of getting it working.

I'll try to find out what's about the R4200 and let you know.


RAM
---

> --- You wrote:
> * Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>   those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>   right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>   the good old x9 modules.
>   I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.
> --- end of quoted material ---
> I can get 60 ns 8MB 72-pin SIMMs for $260.  If you can find 30-pin 60 ns 16MB
> SIMMs for $260, that's great...  Or 4MB 60 ns SIMMs for $65.

What quantities ? What manufacturer ?

> I don't like to give as much board real estate to this as Neill wants,
> but you definitely need enough sockets to get the interleave that Neill
> wants.  32M (8 pieces, 4M X 9 bits) would probably satisfy me, so as
> long as I can leave some sockets empty I won't complain.

I totally agree.


Serial I/O
----------

> > * Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
> >   two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
> >   code.

> I am not objecting to 2 serial ports in general, but there is no
> reason at all to do code downloads on a different serial line.

Of course, you might use the same port for debugging and download.
But it's much more convenient to have independent ports, right ?

> The boot rom should boot the processor and go into an endless loop
> providing a prompt, and reading commands. The three essential
> commands are "peek %d", "poke %d %d" and "go %d". 
> Downloading code goes through the poke command.

Yes, that might work, but it's slow. I would prefer S-record
download. Just hit "load" on the debugging terminal, and then
download the stuff over the other line.

> >   Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
> >   One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
> >   A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
> >   in case we don't have a parallel port.

> I think that you are right here: two ports is not a bad investment 
> after all. The first goes to a mouse, the second is quickly used, and
> more are optional. However if a 4 port chip is available, I wouldn't
> object .....

Is there a four port chip ?

> Agree, but I'd really be disappointed if I couldn't make one of
> those ports run at least 38400Kbits/sec.  My primary network
> connection would be a V.32bis/V.42bis modem, as this thing would
> reside in my spare bedroom.

Of course, 38.4k is *definitly* a must.


keyboard controller
-------------------

> > * Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.
> Disagree, if it's a card in the pc then hook up a cable from pc's serial
> port to card's serial port and voila you've got a terminal.

You got me a bit wrong. I wasn't happy with the pc card solution.
A workstation is much more what I want, but we should not try
to make a high-end thing.


SCSI / IDE
-----------

> > * SCSI. This is a *must*.
> >   I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

> Here is where you start calling it a workstation.  Actually, I
> agree.  SCSI is the _most_ important I/O to me.

Either it's a pc card or it's a workstation. Is there something
in between ? I don't like pc cards, so it must be a workstation :-)

> If you're buying a new disk drive, the difference is negligible.  I
> don't have any IDE disk drives lying around, maybe others do.  If
> you're buying a tape drive or a CD-ROM drive SCSI is certainly
> preferable, and I don't think we have room for the connectors for
> both.

I agree. Even my Linux box at home has never seen any IDE stuff.

> I can't understand why SCSI is preferred to IDE, at least not very
> definitely!  I know that one can connect a lot of different stuffs
> on the SCSI bus, but other than hard disk and tape drive, what are
> the items that will be of interest to majority people (or customers)?
> I'm now owning a total of 500MB IDE hard disk space, and I will be
> very happy if I can use it on the MIPS system.

Simple. There's much more than disk and tape drives you can
connect to SCSI. There are scanners, terminal servers, FPGA-
programmers, dsp cards and whatever. SCSI is much more than
just a mass storage interface. IDE is cheaper for the first
disk, perhaps still for the second one but finally SCSI is the
winner. 


ETHERNET
--------

> > * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
> >   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

> I'd like to have it, but I could live without.  As I said, my
> primary network connection would be a modem.

My idea behind on-board ethernet is not to have because it's
essentially necessary but because it would cost around $30
on-board but at least $150 off-board in form of an ISA-card.
I would *definitly* have to buy another ethernet adapter.

video
-----

> > 
> > * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

> OK I did laugh, you seem to contradict yourself: you regard SCSI&Ethernet as
> an important thing and video not? Nowadays my picture of a workstation is
> running xwindows with a big monitor  (Well at *LEAST* 1024*768 >70Hz) It
> seems that video keeps this group active. :-)

I have the same idea of a workstation. No video on board doesn't
mean no video at all.

> Decent performance is the issue, standard off the shelf (==cheap vga) 
> doesn't stack up in performance against workstation performance, and
> I'm certainly not comparing against top of the line!

Ok, you're right.

> > Yes, I know, it would be slower. The ray tracing guy
> > (sorry, I've forgotten your name) will kill me, but:
> > Please, go ahead and buy a SGI Indigo. We will never ever
> > reach the graphic performance of such a machine, not
> > with a 75MHz R4400 and not with tons of off-the-shelf
> > pseudo-intelligent video-controller stuff.
> >
> This is not what we (I guess) want: we want a reasonable performance for
> a reasonable price.

This is exactly what I want too.

> Well video is still important to me.

It's important to me too. I just have tried to find a solution
with low overhead and small design tasks.


> Fast graphics is a must for me. It is one of the reasons why I'd buy
> such a thing. I think that an onboard dumb frame buffer is the best
> solution. Using a conventional ISA VGA card will be slower (probably
> even with accelerator), and VESA local bus or some other interface for
> high performance graphics cards will be difficult. I think we should
> put our brains into a clean design, not into workarounds for intel
> braindamage.

> A dumb frame buffer on board, 8 bits per pixel, with no multiple
> scan frequencies (pick one when you buy the crystal).  That's high
> enough on enough people's wish lists to justify.  The parts count
> and board space don't seem too much to me.

Ok, looks like we come closer to a decision. I don't mind if
there's an on-board frame buffer. But it should be dumb, without
any "intelligence". What's about 8bit 768x1024 non-interlaced, 70 Hz ?
Most mid-class monitors can handle that. Please remember: Not
everybody has a $2000 Eizo Multisync !


SOUND
-----

> > * Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

> I don't care at all.  I wouldn't give much board space to it.

Ok. I wouldn't mind even if there's no beep !
Sound skipped ?


ISA BUS
-------

> > * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
> >   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

> I think we need some kind of I/O bus. ISA is nice for people who
> already have ISA cards or prefer to buy hardware instead of designing
> it. A simple proprietary bus may be better for the hardware gurus (and
> chaeper). I am not sure what I would prefer, but I am leaning more
> towards the ISA bus. I would keep the number of slots small, however
> (max. 3). 

A proprietary bus is *definitly* no solution.
If we need any kind of expansion bus, ISA is a good choice.

> The no DMA, no bus master, no 8/16 bit detection are good ideas
> worth discussing.  The original PC/XT bus was simple enough you
> could probably implement it with a couple of 22V10's and the
> IDT3730.  In that case, it would make more sense than an ad hoc
> expansion bus that has no market.
> Of course, I'm only guessing about the capabilities of the IDT3730.
> Sure would like to have a data book for that!

If we have all the high-bandwith stuff on board, eg. SCSI and
Ethernet, there's in fact no need for bus-master and dma stuff. 
What could be still needed ? If video is on the motherboard (seems that
most people want that), one might add: more serial lines,
a soundcard, a midi i/o card and the like. Nothing with high bandwith.
(I'm not sure wether soundcards need DMA or not).

I'll try get a 3730 databook.


Again, I'll summarize:

* 40 MHz 3051E/3081E, perhaps R4K2.
* 16 standard SIMM slots for memory sizes
  from 8 Meg (with 1Mx9 modules) to 64 Meg (4Mx9 modules)
  or
  8 72pin SIMM slots for memory sizes from 8 Meg (4 x 512k x 36bit)
  to 64 Meg (8 x 2M x 36bit).
* 2 serial ports.
* One parallel port or one extra serial port.
* SCSI controller
* Ethernet controller
* Keyboard controller
* Realtime clock
* on board 8bit color video, at least 1024x768, 70 Hz.
* 2 or 3 ISA slots, without DMA and busmaster stuff.

Cheers,
Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas Busse             | e-mail: andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de (home)
Eislebenstrasse 5         |         andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (office)
D-5300 Bonn 1             | Phone:  +49 (0)228-252687
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 
From jcn@jcnpc.cmhnet.org  Ukn Jul  4 10:33:35 1993
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From: jcn@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (James C. Nugen)
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI? And other ramblings...
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 10:15:27 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9307040427.AA17852@sword.eng.pyramid.com>; from "Neil Russell" at Jul 3, 93 9:27 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

> If we intend to provide SCSI on ISA rather than the mother board,
> we need to provide bus mastering capability to the ISA bus.

Why? We don't need bus mastering because there is no 16Mb limitation. And
having the SCSI controller on the motherboard won't buy you much of a speed
improvement. The main reason that PC's have these problems is due to the
use of 8237-like DMA controllers. We won't be using them. If the ISA bus
interface connects the DMA request from the bus to the 3730, then it will be
effectively the same as having the SCSI controller on the motherboard. This
would allow people to add SCSI if they want it by adding one of the cheaper
non-bus mastering controllers like the Future Domain's,etc.

Same thing as above goes for the ethernet port.

I believe that the motherboard should have nothing on it except the CPU,
3730, keyboard controller, RTC & NVRAM, glue, and memory. Everything else
should be on the ISA bus, with the exception of video.

If the user wants to get going cheap, they should be able to put a cheap VGA
card in the ISA bus. But if they want to have faster video, we should have a
special video slot. We could use a VESA slot if it is not to hard to implement,
or have our own custom video slot. This way we can have different video card
designs. If some one wants to make a 34010 card or a dumb frame buffer card,
they can just design it to plug into the video slot. Others will have the
choice of using which ever video card they want and can afford.

--
James C. Nugen
jcn@jcnpc.cmhnet.org

 
From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 11:32:41 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 18:03:13 GMT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler
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> My last word (for now) in this matter. Having succesfully
> built a cross compiler, linker and everything except
> assembler (yet) and tested the linked objects on the
> decstation, I'd say that endian is not a problem for cross
> development tools; it's compiletime selectable.

Great !!!

Please tell me what GCC that is and how you have configured
it. I'll get the same version.

Andy
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From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 11:52:36 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 18:23:35 GMT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: General Issues
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Hi there !

> Many of the small details, such as how many serial ports, parallel
> ports, floppy, etc have essentially been voted on.  The major issues
> however must now be resolved.  Below is a list of topics that must
> be resolved before we can start to create schematics:
>
>	*  Peripheral controller
>		Should we use the IDT 79R3730, or design our own?

I would say, developing our own peripheral controller takes
time and is perhaps a not very reliable solution. I prefer
the use of the IDT chip.

>		Should we use a IDT 79R3041 CPU as an I/O controller?

I doubt that an extra I/O CPU improves speed that much. We will
have some extra overhead due to the communication, no matter
what protocol and what hardware is between the two CPUs.

>	*  Should we have an ISA bus or a simpler bus?
>		ISA is more practical, but a new simple 8-bit bus is
>		cheaper and free of the ISA IBM-ness.

Designing our own bus might of course have advantages over that
brain-dead ISA bus. But what hardware will be available for that
bus ? Who will design it ?
I prefer the ISA bus, dumb as it is. All the non-standard
hardware, like dsp cards, eprom programmers and so on are
available. It's just a question of some generic ISA drivers
to support that stuff.

>	*  Should we have SCSI?
>		SCSI for this board will probably be much cheaper and
>		probably faster than something like Adaptec.

I agree. SCSI is definitly a must.

>	*  Should we have video?
>		Video is looking to be the most expensive option on
>		the whole board, but some say its essential.

It looks like it *is* essential for most of us. We should
have on-board video.

>	*  Should we have ethernet?

Yes, for the same reason as we should have SCSI on board.
On-board ethernet is much cheaper than *every* ethernet ISA card.


> Other issues such as keyboard, RTC, NVRAM, serial, parallel, floppy
> disk drives, ISDN, SNA, T1 and the Coke machine interface are not that
> important until these issues are resolved.  Please address yourselves
> to these issues so that we can come to a decision in the next week or
> so.

I agree, with one exception I have forgotten myself when
writing my "downgraded spec sheet": Floppy is *important*.

Imagine someone buys a mips-board and adds a disk and
a monitor (what most people will do). How to install Linux
if there's no floppy ? He can't use the tape because there
is none. He can't use the serial I/O's because there's
nothing to download from.

Any idea ?

Andy


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From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 12:33:46 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 18:50:05 GMT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Video on the motherboard
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> The question is whether to put the video on the motherboard or not.
>
> Many (most?) of the people interested in this board want to make a
> nice fast workstation.  Any good workstation has fast, big colourfull
> video.  The issue here is just how do you get that glossy video
> and how much to pay for it.

I agree. Although the bombs were very small (if not inexistent)
my idea to have no video on board haven't found friends...

> Its true that the video will be the most expensive optional part or
> the board, coming in at about $100.  I offer some alternatives.

Yes, but a mid-class ISA card costs the same.

> First, video on the board:
> 
> 	*  1 MB of Video RAM (supports 1024x1024 8-bits per pixel;
> 	   better resolutions if 1,2 or 4-bits per pixel are used)
> 		or
> 	   2 MB of Video RAM (supports 1280x1024 8-bits per pixel)
> 	*  TI 34076 RAMDAC (has pixel multiplexing, 256 out of 2^16 colors).
>	*  NSC 1882 (generates Video sync, and DMA requests.?)

1024x1024 is a bit unusual :-) Better 1024x768. That wastes ~25% of
the VRAM. 1280x1024 wastes ~33% of the 2 Meg required.
Why not 1152x900 ? That would utilize 99% of 1 Meg VRAM.

> If the peripheral controller is a 3730, then special logic would be
> provided to generate the shift register load cycles for the VRAM,
> and, of course the main CPU does the video support.  If the peripheral
> controller is the 3041, then the VRAM may be connected to either
> processor.  If it was connected to the main CPU, the 3041 could still
> access the VRAM anyhow, albeit a little slower.  The 3041 could
> generate the special VRAM cycles.

Generating the shift register load and clocking out that stuff
could be realized by some GALs.

> Advantages of video on the motherboard:
> 	*  High bandwidth direct connection to CPU
>	*  Linear memory organization (good for software)
> Disadvantages:
>	*  Adds significant cost to the end price of the motherboard.
>
> For those that don't want the video section, the motherboard could
> be sold with empty sockets for the whole video section.  A separate
> video add-on package containing the chips to plug in could be put
> together.

This is a good solution. I like it !

> Video on a VESA or local bus connector:
> 
> (I understand that VESA and local bus are the same thing; correct me
>  if I'm wrong.)

Correct me too, please :-)

> Advantages of VESA video:
> 	*  High bandwidth direct connection to CPU
> 	*  Linear memory organization available
>	*  Cards available to do this already
>	*  No work for us to design video
> Disadvantages of VESA video:
> 	*  CPU is assumed to be an x86 (hard work to connect to a R3000)
> 	*  VESA is apparently going to die soon.
> 	*  VESA and its replacement, PCI, require licenses to use.
> 	*  Higher total cost than motherboard solution

The fact that VESA is on the way to die should be enough
reason not do use VESA video cards.

> Video on the ISA bus (assuming there is one):
> 
> Advantages of ISA video:
> 	*  Cheapest video solution
> 	*  ISA easy to implement
> 	*  Accelerator cards available that support reasonable speed
> 	*  Almost everyone already has a ISA video card
> 	*  Software already exists
> 	*  No work for us to design video
> 	*  Cards will be around for a while (ISA will not die soon)
> Disadvantages of ISA video:
> 	*  Still not as fast as direct connect video, even with accelerators
> 	*  Higher total cost than motherboard solution (if using fast card)
> 	*  Very complicated interface (VGA)

The greatest disadvantage of ISA video cards is loooow speed for
nearly the same price we would pay for *fast* on-board video.

> No video at all:
> 
> Advantages:
> 	*  Cheapest solution of all
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  Must have external terminal
> 	*  Not as cool!

Hmm. No video at all can't be a solution...

> My personal opinion is that the video should be on the motherboard as
> an option.  That is, the video designed and tested, but motherboards
> shipped with empty sockets.  I'm one of those that want the really cool
> huge colour monitors.

I don't need huge colour monitors. I'm satisfied with a 17" monochrome
display. But I don't mind if it's colour :-)


Andy

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From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 12:33:47 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 18:33:53 GMT
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	id AA19919; Sun, 4 Jul 93 18:33:53 GMT
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we provide ISA bus support?
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> In general, most people want ISA.  There are one or two people
> that would rather have a simple, 'riscy' specific, cheap 8-bit bus.
> Then there is the issue of how many ISA sockets to provide?
>
>
> No external bus at all:
>
> Advantages:
>	*  Very cheap
> Disadvantages:
>	*  Make expansion rather difficult

I would say: Makes expansion impossible.

> R3000 specific high bandwidth bus (local bus?):
> 
> Advantages:
> 	*  Peripherals that we add later can go fast.
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  Designing a high speed expander bus is problematical
> 	   (lots of wave calculations)
> 	*  Connectors for high speed busses are expensive.
> 	*  No cards available, unless we make them.

Do we really want to invest the wheel once again ?
There are *so* many bus systems yet... I don't think
that we have the power and market to introduce a new
bus no matter how good and fast it is.

> R3000 specific slow speed 8-bit bus:
>
> Advantages:
> 	*  Cheap, small connectors
> 	*  Easy to provide for on the motherboard
> 	*  Simple to make cards for
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  No cards available, unless we make them

As above, plus the disadvantage that it will be slow :-)


> ISA bus:
>
> Advantages:
> 	*  Supports many, many peripherals
> 	*  Allows other options for video on the motherboard
> 	*  Allows other options if SCSI is not used
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  Large connectors are not the cheapest (though given the quantities
> 	   those things are made in, they probably are cheap)
> 	*  Will could not hope to support everything ISA (such as bus-
> 	   mastering mode, and maybe the bus sizing stuff).
> 	*  Uses lots of board space

In fact, the connectors are old-fashioned and use a
lot of boardspace. But we don't need that many slots
as a PC has, because we have most of the necessary
I/O stuff on-board. One might need two, perhaps 3 slots.
That will be sufficient for 99% of all applications.

> A full AT ISA bus implementation provides:
>	*  8-bit or 16-bit data path
>	*  Flexible throttling mechanism (automatic wait state generator)
>	*  Slave and Master DMA modes
>	*  Automatic 16 to 8-bit translation.
>	*  8.33 MHz clock rate

The discussion about DMA modes is already in progress.
Perhaps there's no need to support DMA on the ISA bus.
Comments ?

Andy

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From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 12:52:39 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 19:25:56 GMT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Monitor prom
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Is the task "writing a monitor/bootstrap prom" already
allocated ?

I have an unused R3000 evaluation board laying around.
Although it has different UARTS and is only 16Mhz slow
it should be ok for doing some work on it.
If people don't mind I could start writing that ugly
stuff...

Andy

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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 19:20:20 GMT
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	id AA20101; Sun, 4 Jul 93 19:20:20 GMT
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Main CPU and Peripheral controller
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> To rephrase all this into what this means for us:
> 
> 	*  Our DRAM interface can be two-way interleaved (which means
> 	   that 64-bits of memory are accessed each memory cycle, so
> 	   that the CPU will have the data for its next read already
> 	   in the data buffers, which reduces every second access to
> 	   1-cycle instead of about 6-cycles), DRAM page mode and
> 	   early-write modes can be taken advantage of to further
> 	   speed up access.

This is *very* important. We have a Mips Magnum 3000 (33 MHz) and
a Magnum 4000PC (50 MHz) in the office. Due to the fact that the
R4000 has only 8+8k cache the machine is sometimes slower (up to
factor 2) than the R3000 machine which has 32+32k cache. By speeding
up main memory access we will improve overall speed by a significant
amount, especially because the 3081E has a rather small cache
compared to discrete R3000/R3010 solutions.

>	*  Glue for an extend bus (such as ISA) would require very
>	   little additional support.

An extra argument for the ISA bus.

> Now the bad news:  The chip is only available in a 208 pin FQFP (a
> surface mount package).  The pricing is us$50 - us$70 in lots of
> 5,000.  This would translate to >us$100 for the quantities that
> we want.

There are FQFP (isn't it called PQFP ?) sockets available.
But they are heavily expensive :-(

> However, there have been some developments in the last week or so
> that may mean that Surface Mount is OK.  More on that as details
> are available.

Hmmmm. :-)


> Alternatives
> ------------
> 
> If we cannot use the 3730, there is another alternative that was
> thought up by Steven Ligett, Jerry Callen (and Pat Mackinlay?).
> 
> This involves creating a DRAM interface between the main CPU and
> memory using programmable logic.  This interface would provide:
>
>	*  DRAM address multiplexing
>	*  Two-way interleaving
>	*  Page mode support
>	*  Early write mode support
>		(The last three are provided on the special CPU
>		 cycles only, such as the instruction cache refill).
>
> There would be a R3041 co-processor connected to the main CPU via a DMA
> channel.  The only connection to the outside world for the main CPU
> would be this co-processor.
> 
> Information copied from the IDT data book on the 3041:
>
> [...]
>
> The 3041 essentially does in software what the 3730 does in hardware,
> with the added flexibility that its very programmable.  As an example,
> if the 3041 was given a scatter/gather SCSI disk access to do, it
> would read/write the data directly top the SCSI port, and write/read
> the data to the appropriate location in the main CPUs memory.
>
>
> Some costings:
> 
>     3730:
> 	3730	about $120 or more (see above)
>	glue	about $10 (buffers, latches, one of two PALs)
		     -----
		      $130
>
>    3041:
>	3041	about $35
>	glue	about $30 (buffer, latches, lots of PALs)
>	memory	about $45 (maybe those old 256K SIMMS?)
		     ----
		     $110

>
> Advantages of 3730:
> 	-  Single chip does almost everything
> 	-  Not much R&D to get it going
> Disadvantages of 3730:
> 	-  Cost (maybe; can't tell until October)
> 	-  Availability
> Advantages of 3041:
> 	-  Parts are available now
> 	-  Cost
> 	-  More programmable (RISC does it in software approach)
> Disadvantages of 3041:
> 	-  More R&D
> 	-  Lots of hard real time software to write
> 	-  More board space needed.

The costs difference isn't that much. But the R&D difference
seems to be large. A 3730 solution would speed up design
and will be more reliable than a hand-made solution with
the 3041.

> (Note:  If video is provided on the motherboard and connected to the 3041,
>        then maybe some of the unused space in the VRAM could be used as
>	program memory for the 3041, further reducing the cost.)

If we would take the 1 Meg / 1152x900 video there won't be
any unused memory anymore...

> My opinion is that we should dump the 3730 and use the 3041 approach.
> The cost of the extra board space is offset by the reduction in cost
> of the sub-system, and the parts are available *now*.

I agree that we would have the board earlier if we are going to
use the 3041 solution. But we will have to spend more time into
programming the 3041 and arranging the hardware around what might
mean that the design isn't finished until October no matter what
solution we use...


Andy
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From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  4 12:52:46 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 19:20:20 GMT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Main CPU and Peripheral controller
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> To rephrase all this into what this means for us:
> 
> 	*  Our DRAM interface can be two-way interleaved (which means
> 	   that 64-bits of memory are accessed each memory cycle, so
> 	   that the CPU will have the data for its next read already
> 	   in the data buffers, which reduces every second access to
> 	   1-cycle instead of about 6-cycles), DRAM page mode and
> 	   early-write modes can be taken advantage of to further
> 	   speed up access.

This is *very* important. We have a Mips Magnum 3000 (33 MHz) and
a Magnum 4000PC (50 MHz) in the office. Due to the fact that the
R4000 has only 8+8k cache the machine is sometimes slower (up to
factor 2) than the R3000 machine which has 32+32k cache. By speeding
up main memory access we will improve overall speed by a significant
amount, especially because the 3081E has a rather small cache
compared to discrete R3000/R3010 solutions.

>	*  Glue for an extend bus (such as ISA) would require very
>	   little additional support.

An extra argument for the ISA bus.

> Now the bad news:  The chip is only available in a 208 pin FQFP (a
> surface mount package).  The pricing is us$50 - us$70 in lots of
> 5,000.  This would translate to >us$100 for the quantities that
> we want.

There are FQFP (isn't it called PQFP ?) sockets available.
But they are heavily expensive :-(

> However, there have been some developments in the last week or so
> that may mean that Surface Mount is OK.  More on that as details
> are available.

Hmmmm. :-)


> Alternatives
> ------------
> 
> If we cannot use the 3730, there is another alternative that was
> thought up by Steven Ligett, Jerry Callen (and Pat Mackinlay?).
> 
> This involves creating a DRAM interface between the main CPU and
> memory using programmable logic.  This interface would provide:
>
>	*  DRAM address multiplexing
>	*  Two-way interleaving
>	*  Page mode support
>	*  Early write mode support
>		(The last three are provided on the special CPU
>		 cycles only, such as the instruction cache refill).
>
> There would be a R3041 co-processor connected to the main CPU via a DMA
> channel.  The only connection to the outside world for the main CPU
> would be this co-processor.
> 
> Information copied from the IDT data book on the 3041:
>
> [...]
>
> The 3041 essentially does in software what the 3730 does in hardware,
> with the added flexibility that its very programmable.  As an example,
> if the 3041 was given a scatter/gather SCSI disk access to do, it
> would read/write the data directly top the SCSI port, and write/read
> the data to the appropriate location in the main CPUs memory.
>
>
> Some costings:
> 
>     3730:
> 	3730	about $120 or more (see above)
>	glue	about $10 (buffers, latches, one of two PALs)
		     -----
		      $130
>
>    3041:
>	3041	about $35
>	glue	about $30 (buffer, latches, lots of PALs)
>	memory	about $45 (maybe those old 256K SIMMS?)
		     ----
		     $110

>
> Advantages of 3730:
> 	-  Single chip does almost everything
> 	-  Not much R&D to get it going
> Disadvantages of 3730:
> 	-  Cost (maybe; can't tell until October)
> 	-  Availability
> Advantages of 3041:
> 	-  Parts are available now
> 	-  Cost
> 	-  More programmable (RISC does it in software approach)
> Disadvantages of 3041:
> 	-  More R&D
> 	-  Lots of hard real time software to write
> 	-  More board space needed.

The costs difference isn't that much. But the R&D difference
seems to be large. A 3730 solution would speed up design
and will be more reliable than a hand-made solution with
the 3041.

> (Note:  If video is provided on the motherboard and connected to the 3041,
>        then maybe some of the unused space in the VRAM could be used as
>	program memory for the 3041, further reducing the cost.)

If we would take the 1 Meg / 1152x900 video there won't be
any unused memory anymore...

> My opinion is that we should dump the 3730 and use the 3041 approach.
> The cost of the extra board space is offset by the reduction in cost
> of the sub-system, and the parts are available *now*.

I agree that we would have the board earlier if we are going to
use the 3041 solution. But we will have to spend more time into
programming the 3041 and arranging the hardware around what might
mean that the design isn't finished until October no matter what
solution we use...


Andy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas Busse             | e-mail: andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de (home)
Eislebenstrasse 5         |         andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (office)
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From dfishman@csn.org  Ukn Jul  4 13:07:14 1993
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From: Dan Fishman <dfishman@csn.org>
Message-Id: <199307041705.AA11270@teal.csn.org>
Subject: $.02
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 11:05:08 -0600 (MDT)
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My votes/thoughts/ramblings: (plus a comment)

Video on the MB - absolutely!  So many systems are out there wasting
the power of even a 486 by using slow video crap.  Video on the
ISA bus (if there is one) makes this effort a waste of time I feel.

SCSI on the MB - absolutely! same comments as above... this is
supposed to be a FAST cheap design.  SCSI on the MB achieves both.

ETHERNET on the MB - probably!  I feel the same as the issue re SCSI
on the MB, but I am using this in a standalone home environment so it
is less an issue to me.  But in keeping with the design goals, fast and
cheap again suggests that this element should be on the MB.

Modular options for the video on MB - great idea if it can be done without
much cost.

IDT3730 - absolutely if we can get any firm schedules for sample quantities.
IDT is WAYYYY late on this chip, but should be well along to commiting to
sample deliveries!  There is plenty of design to get started before we 
need to plug in the IDT chip.

ISA support - OK.  VESA is definitely a waste of time.  PCI may catch on
later but it is not there yet (in the cost and open spec domain we would
like).  My only personal bias is to go with EISA over ISA.  Not that EISA
is the wave of the future, but it is ISA compatible and offers a little
broader spectrum for performance plug in bus cards.  I suspect there are
EISA controller chips (like the 82358 from Intel).  I don't know the cost
of the chip, but if it is a minimal increase over pure ISA control, and if
it can interface to the 3730... do it!

A last comment.  Let's get this thing rolling.  A danger in design by 
committee, such as this effort, is gridlock wherein everyone wants their
two cents in the design and nothing gets started.  A commercial venture
more often restricts the ammount of such wrangling and simply makes the
decisions to get to market.  Let's get this going... my $.02 are just that.
SOMEONE needs to get the project out of the starting blocks and moving
down a path (any path for now... there is never THE perfect path).

Dan Fishman (dfishman@csn.org) (W) (303) 469-6469 (Fax) (303) 465-4396


 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 13:58:30 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307041757.AA11370@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: Main CPU and Peripheral controller
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 10:57:38 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307041920.AA20101@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 4, 93 7:20 pm
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> 
> > However, there have been some developments in the last week or so
> > that may mean that Surface Mount is OK.  More on that as details
> > are available.
> 
> Hmmmm. :-)


This is you!

We need to decide if Waldorf is going to go public about this or not.
If so, it should happen very soon.  This fact could change the way the
design goes.

If you like, I'll tell them.  To do that, all I need is a little
knowledge of what you need on the MB in addition to our stuff (like
a connector to your own boards).

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  4 14:11:20 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307041810.AA12110@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: Main CPU and Peripheral controller
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 11:10:39 PDT
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> 
> > 
> > > However, there have been some developments in the last week or so
> > > that may mean that Surface Mount is OK.  More on that as details
> > > are available.
> > 
> > Hmmmm. :-)
> 
> 
> This is you!


Sorry riscers, this was not meant to go to the general group, but
a specific member;  I guess that 'Reply-to' got me... :-(

Please ignore it for now...

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  4 16:26:20 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307042014.AA16767@rei.com>
Subject: Should we provide ISA bus support?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 15:14:58 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307040721.AA15244@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 4, 93 02:21:57 am
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Neill said:
> Subject: Should we provide ISA bus support?
> 
> No external bus at all:
> 
> Advantages:
> 	*  Very cheap
    -> Very easy to design, probably get it right the 1st time.
    -> Very little board space
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  Make expansion rather difficult
    -> One would have to go back to the 'sources' and do a new board
    layout, and have new boards made
> 
> 
> R3000 specific high bandwidth bus (local bus?):
> 
> Advantages:
> 	*  Peripherals that we add later can go fast.
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  Designing a high speed expander bus is problematical
> 	   (lots of wave calculations)
> 	*  Connectors for high speed busses are expensive.
> 	*  No cards available, unless we make them.
    -> Very difficult to design, not just the motherboard but each
    new board that you want.  No _cheap_ expansion.
> 
> 
> R3000 specific slow speed 8-bit bus:
> 
> Advantages:
> 	*  Cheap, small connectors
> 	*  Easy to provide for on the motherboard
> 	*  Simple to make cards for
> Disadvantages:
> 	*  No cards available, unless we make them
    -> Cheaper and easier than a high-speed bus, but still not
    very.
> 
> 
> ISA bus:
> 
> [...] the master DMA is probably the hardest to provide
> since it requires access to the main memory. 
The Adaptec 1542 is the only bus master I know of.  Motherboard DMA
obviates that one.
> 
> The 16 to 8-bit translation is a convenience for the programmer that
> allows a 16 bit access to an 8-bit card; it can be programmed around.
> 
> Slave DMA can be easily attached to the 3730....
> 
What do you think of some compromise that would be compatible with
some ISA-bus boards but not others?  Or is that your point?  I
already suggested the 8-bit PC/XT bus, maybe a limited 16-bit
compromise?
> 
> How many sockets to provide?
> 
> This is a question of how much board space we have and what others
> think.
> 
That's all there is to say.

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  4 17:26:06 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307042037.AA16861@rei.com>
Subject: Should we have SCSI?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 15:37:20 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307040722.AA15258@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 4, 93 02:22:02 am
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Neill said:
> 
> SCSI on the motherboard:
> 
> If we intend to provide SCSI on ISA rather than the mother board,
> we need to provide bus mastering capability to the ISA bus.  
> 
> Alternatively, a SCSI controller chip is designed to connect to a
> system such as ours and would take relatively little effort to get
> going.
> 
> For those wanting SCSI, the motherboard wins hands down.

Seems clear to me!

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  4 17:26:10 1993
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Message-Id: <9307042047.AA16903@rei.com>
Subject: Ethernet on the motherboard?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 15:47:32 -0500 (CDT)
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Neill said:
> 
> Opinion as to whether Ethernet is needed at all seems to be split
> roughly 50-50.  For a good deal of us, this will be a super-fast
> workstation in some small desk in the corner of our bedroom.
> The only connection to the outside world would probably be a modem.
> These people couldn't care less about Ethernet.  Others will connect
> this to a small, or large network of workstations, and for them,
> Ethernet is absolutely essential.  Others may use this as a diskless
> workstation (read X-terminal), and then Ethernet is central.
> 
> There is enough bias in the above ramblings to anger anyone who doesn't
> agree with me, which is exactly what I want.  Tell me why I'm wrong?

There is so little bias I can't tell if I agree or not.  I _think_
you're suggesting that Ethernet-on-board would be nice, but not as
easy as SCSI, and probably not worth the effort.  Since I can't
volunteer to design an Ethernet adapter (I am, after all, just a
software weenie) I have to agree:  Ethernet is nice but not
important to me.

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  4 21:57:03 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: ease of implementation, optional features, etc.
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 04 Jul 1993 15:47:32 CDT."
             <9307042047.AA16903@rei.com> 
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1993 19:55:46 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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As far as design :

People are forgetting one thing : application notes.  Most vendors 
have application notes that give a working sample implementation using
their chip.  For instance, National Semi's AN-479 has full schematics,
a materials list, and a PAL program (for the PAL that does shared memory
arbiting and address decode) for an ISA 8390 board (AUI / thinnet, 
jumper selectable).  If you were to go with a shared memory 8390 
implementation you could take this design, and write a new PAL program....

In any case, the analog side (what scares the non-EE's among us)
with the pulse transformers, etc would allready be done for you.

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  5 03:32:39 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 09:16:12 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  ease of implementation, optional features, etc.
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> As far as design :
> 
> People are forgetting one thing : application notes.  Most vendors 
> have application notes that give a working sample implementation using
> their chip.  For instance, National Semi's AN-479 has full schematics,
> a materials list, and a PAL program (for the PAL that does shared memory
> arbiting and address decode) for an ISA 8390 board (AUI / thinnet, 
> jumper selectable).  If you were to go with a shared memory 8390 
> implementation you could take this design, and write a new PAL program....

Right. We should go this way. Why invest the wheel again and again ?

> In any case, the analog side (what scares the non-EE's among us)
> with the pulse transformers, etc would allready be done for you.

Otherwise this would be the most complicated part :-)

Andy

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c/o Andreas Busse
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D-5481 Waldorf
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Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
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From jeremy@sw.oz.au  Ukn Jul  5 04:03:20 1993
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From: jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge)
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Subject: Re: Main CPU and Peripheral controller
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 17:58:02 +1000 (EST)
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: <9307040426.AA17803@sword.eng.pyramid.com> from "Neil Russell" at Jul 3, 93 09:26:15 pm
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
X-Face: 
	 '6U=%Tv\k1<Ek%ql%PN^v`Db4bakr[v~y]\u7"GbO#I=]N{l1=#P,glz$9q>l-:?\$C[D@G
	 7(vl~w8&y}!f\bh#w<Y*S~bEBTI:s&.QR>L#n,TGKh>T.c7eT5-y)Hl'i;A1z$9?*lD.k}yqshddFb
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Neil Russell bubbles:

> In my original design, I had planned to use the IDT 79R3730 "Raster
> Image Processor".  IDT's intended market for the device is the
> Laser Printer market, however the chip lends itself to our design
> quite nicely.  In the 1992/1993 Data Book entitled "RISC Microprocessor
> Components & SubSystems", there is Advance information on the 3730.

I think this looks very good, and we should go with it.  The extra
cost doesn't seem that much considering how much it has, and how much
board space it will save.  The extra features make onboard video most
attractive, and the best solution for video.

On the subject of video:

You may of noticed that I like the onboard ideas.  Just one more point:
there has to be at least 2 frames worth of video memory for double
buffering.  Of course, you need only install one frame's worth (I
suggest), but there should be space for 2.  Using the 3730 and directly
connected video memory could get some serious graphics performance.


My Views On Other Things:

* Ether:
	Either main board or ISA.
	I don't care if ether performance is reasonable thru an ISA connector.
	Raw performace isn't the only issue:  its also important to consider
	how much CPU time it sucks while IO is happening.  If DMA can't be done
	with an ISA card, there should be some option on the main board.

* SCSI:
	Yes.

* ISA:
	Yes.  This excludes the need for pretty much everything else.
	At least one slot is going to have a FDC in it.

* RAM:
	There should be memory.

* ROM:
	I don't think lots is needed.  The 3730 allows a single 8 bit
	EPROM to be used.  I think it should.  I don't see that a lot
	of stuff needs to be in it.  The limitation should be 1 chip's
	worth, so whatever EPROM with the most practial capacity.
	Having 4 EPROMs just to make a 32 bit bus would be a waste of
	board.

* RTC & misc goo:
	Well, RTC is probably best done with a Dallas Semi smart watch.
	It can go either under the EPROM or under some static ram to
	make it nv.  Other things are pretty trivial.  Serial ports are
	necessary and easy.  Parallel would be good for simple things.
	I can't see a printer port being that useful (since an ISA card
	is very cheap), but a few bits for diag LEDs is good.  You could
	have a 1 bit speaker for beeping with on it, for those who don't
	need good sound.  For those who do, it should be an option.
	No audio DACs on the board.

	J

 
From hodgen@informatik.uni-koblenz.de  Ukn Jul  5 06:51:13 1993
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Subject: Re: General issues
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 12:48:08 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <9307040424.AA17743@sword.eng.pyramid.com>; from "Neil Russell" at Jul 3, 93 9:24 pm
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> 	*  Peripheral controller
> 		Should we use the IDT 79R3730, or design our own?
> 		Should we use a IDT 79R3041 CPU as an I/O controller?

>From the discussion here the IDT 79R3730 seemed the best idea. But I'm not an
expert here so ...

> 	*  Should we have an ISA bus or a simpler bus?
> 		ISA is more practical, but a new simple 8-bit bus is
> 		cheaper and free of the ISA IBM-ness.

ISA, definately.

> 	*  Should we have SCSI?
> 		SCSI for this board will probably be much cheaper and
> 		probably faster than something like Adaptec.

Absolutely necessary.

> 	*  Should we have video?
> 		Video is looking to be the most expensive option on
> 		the whole board, but some say its essential.

Yes, this should be on board. It makes more sense and is easier later on. There
is then a video standard.

> 	*  Should we have ethernet?

Yes. I feel this should be the first to disappear if the design gets too
expensive but it should at least be there as sockets on the board.

I hope this helps. Perhaps we should take a proper vote on it.

-- 
Wayne Hodgen  | hodgen@infko.uni-koblenz.de | Opinions (c) Me 1991   | Intel SX
Uni Koblenz,  | (..!unido!infko!hodgen)     | Keeper of the Scrolls, |  Just
Rheinau 3-4,  | Voice: +49 261 9119-645     | Defender of the Net,   |   say
5400 Koblenz. | Fax:   +49 261 9119-499     | His name is "root".    |    NO!!!

 
From chrisa@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU  Ukn Jul  5 07:34:28 1993
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From: "C. G. Albone" <chrisa@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
Message-Id: <199307051131.AA19597@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: General issues
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 21:31:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <m0oCo5S-0001vLC@uniko.uni-koblenz.de>; from "hodgen@mailhost.uni-koblenz.de" at Jul 5, 93 12:48 pm
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hullo all..

	I am not sure how many of us lurkers are on the list, but I guess
even our opinions/wishes/etc may find a use to the implementers, after all,
we may well buy one of these boards.

	In terms of features, I guess the minimum list should be:
	A nice fast video implementation. I guess i am in no position
	to have an opinion as to how this should be implemented.

	ISA would seem to be very important too, even if we have only
	a partial implementation. I liked the idea that someone mentioned
	about being able to implement a faster bus & using wait states
	so that slower boards could cope with it. In any case, from the
	pro ISA faction, it seems that there should be between 2& 4 max. 
	slots. 3 seems a nice round number, leaving room for a ether card,
	perhaps a sound card & maybe extra serial/parallel or IDE interface
	cards. Those arguing for other sorts of bus implementations have to
	realise that not all of us can afford to give up whatever cards/drives
	/etc that we may already have.

	SCSI generally seems to be considered a necessity, and i have no
	quibbles about that.

	In terms of onboard ethernet, I am not so sure that it is so worthwhile.
	If there was no ISA bus, then perhaps there would be more reason to
	put it on the motherboard, but it seems that the cost of implementing
	it is the same as buying a card.. no net gain for many users i would
	guess.

	Basically I am indifferent on questions about the amount of memory
	that should be provided for on board, being one of those horribly
	poor student types that will never be able to afford to ever fill
	up all the banks in any case (unless it was with 256k simms that
	are like grains of sand here). 64M with 4M simms would seem to be
	enough (more than..) for any use that i would put the board to (heh,
	even if i were to use it as a multi-user system). Of course, others
	will have good cause for more ram.

	Re parallel ports, serial, sound, flashing lights etc. Two serial
	ports on board would seem to be the minimum & they needn't be
	especially fast if their main use is going to be looking after mice
	etc. I guess if you want speed, buy a card and put 16550's on it.
	Parallel would be best handled by something on an ISA card. Someone
	else mentioned that sound could be handled by a one bit speaker -
	i guess i agree.. nothing fancy, just enough to make a machine that
	can go 'ping' when we need it to. I guess if the Connection Machine
	has some flashing lights, i don't see why we shouldnt ;-)

	anyways enuff for now..

	chris.  

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  5 08:13:56 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 13:52:40 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
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> > 	*  Should we have ethernet?
> 
> Yes. I feel this should be the first to disappear if the design gets too
> expensive but it should at least be there as sockets on the board.

No Ethernet on board at all wouldn't be a good solution, at least
for me. Having at least the sockets to plug the stuff in when needed
should be ok for most of us.

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  6 08:55:00 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 14:45:27 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Board production
Cc: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
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Dear Mipsers !

You may have recognized that "Oooops" mail...

We, ie. Neil and me, had a discussion about the production
of the riscy board because Waldorf Electronics (the
company I'm working for) is interested in manufacturing
the boards and in doing some CAD work.

The discussion is still in progress and wether Waldorf
will produce the boards or not depends obviosly on what
the whole group thinks about that.

Perhaps I have to introduce Waldorf Electronics here.
Waldorf is a small company developing and producing
synthesizers and peripherals for the music market.
We normally have *nothing* to do with the workstation
and Un*x market, we just use our Mips machines as
development systems.

We are interested in the riscy board and a Linux port
because we are looking for a Un*x kernel and matching
hardware as the base for a kind of a new synthesizer.
Please excuse that I can't tell you much about that thing.
It's confidential and my boss would simply kill me for
a single word more.

We are highly interested in seeing this project succeed,
and I will do some work on it during my daytime job
and at home too.

However, a possible scheme could be:

- Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)

- Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
  international market or complete boards only for
  the european market and partly assembled ones for
  oversea.

- SMD is now ok.

- We provide warranty and email support.

- Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.

- The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.

- We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.

- We would use the design as the base for some further
  development. 


I hope that we all find a way satisfying each member of
the riscy group and each customer too. Please let Neil
and me know what you think about.

If you have further questions about Waldorf Electronics,
feel free to ask. I'll try to answer if I can.

Bye,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 09:17:54 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
Subject: Re: Board production 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 14:45:27 +0200."
             <9307061245.AA10855@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 07:16:59 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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    However, a possible scheme could be:
    
    - Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)

This is acceptable.
    
    - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
      international market or complete boards only for
      the european market and partly assembled ones for
      oversea.

This is acceptable if the boards are sold to the Linux community 
at cost + shipping expenseses.  
    
    - SMD is now ok.

This is very good, since it lets us use the 3730 without any problems,
various integrated pee-cee chipsets, etc.
    

 
From tthorn@daimi.aau.dk  Ukn Jul  6 09:44:13 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 15:43:19 +0200
From: Tommy Thorn <tthorn@daimi.aau.dk>
Message-Id: <199307061343.AA12805@avignon.daimi.aau.dk>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Subject: Re: Board production
References: <9307061245.AA10855@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> write:

>Dear Mipsers !
...
>However, a possible scheme could be:
>- Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)
>- Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
>  international market or complete boards only for
>  the european market and partly assembled ones for
>  oversea.
>- SMD is now ok.

Good. Does this change the current design proposal?

>- We provide warranty and email support.
>- Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.
>- The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.
>- We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.
>- We would use the design as the base for some further
>  development.

Great news!! I wholeheartedly support this. Of course, I'm
biased, as I vision myself going to Gemany to see and get the
board. ;^) ;^) A trip to the US is too expensive.

>I hope that we all find a way satisfying each member of
>the riscy group and each customer too. Please let Neil
>and me know what you think about.

>If you have further questions about Waldorf Electronics,
>feel free to ask. I'll try to answer if I can.

I couldn't find Waldorf on my (lousy) map, where about is it?

 
From tor@tss.no  Ukn Jul  6 10:09:41 1993
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From: tor@tss.no (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 16:02:46 +0200
In-Reply-To: Tommy Thorn <tthorn@daimi.aau.dk> "Re: Board production" (Jul 6, 3:43pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
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Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> write:
[description about Waldorf board production deleted]
>I hope that we all find a way satisfying each member of
>the riscy group and each customer too. Please let Neil
>and me know what you think about.
>
>If you have further questions about Waldorf Electronics,
>feel free to ask. I'll try to answer if I can.

This doesn't sound bad at all.  Pricing will be self-coast + shipping?

Tor	
(tor@tss.no, soon to be on vacation. Not reading mails mid-July to mid-August)

 
From dfishman@csn.org  Ukn Jul  6 10:21:11 1993
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From: Dan Fishman <dfishman@csn.org>
Message-Id: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org>
Subject: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 08:19:04 -0600 (MDT)
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How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!

Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.

If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

Dan Fishman (dfishman@csn.org) (W) (303) 469-6469 (Fax) (303) 465-4396

 
From wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  6 10:23:13 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 16:20:50 +0200
From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307061420.AA08635@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Board production at Waldorf.
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Hi everyone.

Everyone is excited at the new development that the Waldorf Electronics 
company is willing to produce the board. 
I think this is a positive development: This means that it becomes
quite a lot more likely that this will not remain vaporware. 

However,
we should note that for a commercial company, "cost-price" includes
things like overhead. Thus where the hobby-freaks say they can make
a PCB for a few tens of dollars, a company will calculate $$ board 
production, $$ solder bath repayment, $$ secretaries, $$ telephone 
costs, .....

In short the economists at a company are usually very good at finding
"reasonable" costs that have to be calculated into the costprice. This
way even the cost-price will prove to be more expensive than we tought.

Anyway, for me this is a clear sign that this discussion might turn from
vaporware into hardware!!! (and that's what we all want :-)


				Roger.


 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  6 10:30:45 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: waldorf/board production
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 10:29:00 -0500 (EDT)
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Having Waldorf produce the boards seems like a great idea, that will give
the project more freedom of design.

Bt my understanding GPL says nothing about no profit.  (I'm open to correction).

The way I understand it is a company can sell a piece of software under GPL
for any amount of money, but source must be made available, and the company
can't forbid you to copy/distribute it.

So I would think if your going to require Waldorf to produce boards at no
profit don't justify it with GPL.  

It seems Waldorf has alot to offer: smt, design skills, more clout with
parts suppliers, etc.  In the original design we were going to
pay a company to produce the boards at a profit, why is it different
with Waldorf?

Last thing I would want to happen is have Waldorf withdrawl from there
offer because of the potential costs to them.   I.e. email/phone support,
warranty.

In summary I'm 100% for Waldorf's participation in the project.
-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From msuomala@beta.hut.fi  Ukn Jul  6 10:39:21 1993
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From: Matti Suomalainen <msuomala@beta.hut.fi>
Message-Id: <9307061437.AA08529@beta.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 17:37:10 +0200 (EET DST)
In-Reply-To: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org> from "Dan Fishman" at Jul 6, 93 08:19:04 am
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> How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!
:
> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

The board design will be 'GPL' (not?), so anyone can sell it etc.
The only difference is that Waldorf will be helping us to build it 
(they could just wait until we finish and use it then).

If other commercial vendors want to join us, why not?
As long as the design will be GPL, i dont mind any commercial partner
lending us a hand :)

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  6 10:40:27 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 10:38:53 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org> from "Dan Fishman" at Jul 6, 93 08:19:04 am
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> 
> How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!

Since a company offered to provide free serivces to help in a GPL design
of a mips based unix box.  If you find others please let us know.

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
> earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
> clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.

This is true, but those volunteers also have to appreciate services
that aren't for free like building a motherboard with SMT chips.

> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids. 
By my understanding Waldorf has offered to help in the design for free.
Since it's going to be GPL you can easily request the design and build
it yourself.

> I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

Well help in the design (which has already been volunteered) and when
production starts put in a bid.)

I would personally favor any board produced by design particpants 
then a profit motivated source.

Waldorf has alot to gain from this, access to a mips designed
motherboard for there own purposes, and we have alot to
gain from them (access to there production facilities) sounds like
a great partnership.    

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From SMACKINLA@cc.curtin.edu.au  Ukn Jul  6 10:50:08 1993
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Date: 06 Jul 1993 22:48:39 +0800
From: Pat Mackinlay <SMACKINLA@cc.curtin.edu.au>
Subject: Mindless dribble...
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Message-Id: <01H08LIMEI06FUNLHP@cc.curtin.edu.au>
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Firstly, I should say that I do like the idea of Waldorf producing the 
boards in principle, but I worry about what sort of cost we're going to be 
looking at to buy them. Someone mentioned a company's idea of "cost price" 
being different to an enthusiast's - a valid point. Andy, is your company 
prepared to take a _loss_ to produce these boards? That is, is Waldorf 
Electronics willing to subsidise the cost of producing them? If the cost 
climbs out of reach of the enthusiasts, you will have a much more limited 
number of programmers available...

Anyhow, on a different topic, we still need to resolve some of the system 
issues. If SMT is now an option, perhaps we could reconsider the Inmos 
framebuffer controller (forget the number)? If I remember, the chip was 
about $100 - how does this compete with the 34076+NSC solution (taking into 
account the simpler VRAM interface)?

It seems that Steve, Jerry and I are outnumbered as regards the ISA vs 
proprietry bus issue, so personally, I'll concede defeat. The other major 
issue to be resolved as far as I can see is the 3730 vs 3041 problem. I 
would _still_ prefer to see the 3730 on the board, as it eliminates any 
shared-memory problems. Also, seeing as SMT is now possible, the PQFP 
package is no longer a problem. The only obstacle to using the 3730 then, 
is it's availability. Perhaps IDT might show more interest if they were 
contacted by Waldorf Elec., who mentioned plans to produce 100 or so 
boards?

Anyhow, apart from eliminating shared-memory and memory contention 
problems, I see the 3730 requiring less development time to get going, as 
well as providing a more integrated (perhaps smaller?) board.

Comments?

Pat -- "There's only one thing left to do Mama, I got to ding a ding dang
	my dang a long ling long" (Jesus Built My Hotrod -- Ministry)
GCS d* -p+ c++ l++ m--- s+/- !g w- t- r

 
From wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  6 10:56:42 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 16:54:22 +0200
From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307061454.AA08674@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  Mindless dribble...
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

two points:

1) The Inmos chip I mentioned is the G335. Inmos has been taken over by
SGS Thompson, so it features in the SGS databook. (I thought untill a 
few seconds ago, that INMOS had more or less disappeared alltogether, 
but the chip is labelled INMOS in large letters.... :-)

2) "quantities". The quantities are around 100 in the first year....
Maybe thousands later on.......

					Roger.

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 11:32:22 1993
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From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307061530.AA08125@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
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> From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
> 
> Dear Mipsers !
> 
> You may have recognized that "Oooops" mail...
> 
> We, ie. Neil and me, had a discussion about the production
> of the riscy board because Waldorf Electronics (the
> company I'm working for) is interested in manufacturing
> the boards and in doing some CAD work.
> 
> The discussion is still in progress and wether Waldorf
> will produce the boards or not depends obviosly on what
> the whole group thinks about that.

Fine with me.  It does greatly improve the chances of completion.

> Perhaps I have to introduce Waldorf Electronics here...

Interesting work.

> - Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)

Design file would become available?  What format would such
files be?  

> 
> - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
>   international market or complete boards only for
>   the european market and partly assembled ones for
>   oversea.

Given the Gerber PhotoPlot files, there are many places that
could "do a run".  Given blank boards, there are many places
that can "stuff".  I may be interested in stuffing a few boards
here.  Even with 0.5 mm pitch pqfp.

> - SMD is now ok.

Thank Heavens.

> 
> - We provide warranty and email support.
> 
> - Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.
> 
> - The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.
> 
> - We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.

This would be important to maintaining the spirit in which
this group was created.

> - We would use the design as the base for some further
>   development. 

Good for us, good for you.

> Bye,
> Andy
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  6 11:56:59 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307061557.AA13240@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Board production 
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 10:57:45 CDT
In-Reply-To: <199307061317.AA28753@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>; from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 06, 93 7:16 am
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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>     - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
>       international market or complete boards only for
>       the european market and partly assembled ones for
>       oversea.
> 
> This is acceptable if the boards are sold to the Linux community 
> at cost + shipping expenseses.  
>     
This would be great but I wouldn't expect it.  As long as everything is
make public (ie the schematics and PCB layout), others could produce the
boards.  This seems no different than what SLS and others are doing with
linux codes.  All for a profit.  Neil said they'd also be offering support.
If that is the case they deserve some profit.  Of course too much and no one
will buy.


--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 11:59:28 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 10:57:37 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307061557.AA08272@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we provide ISA bus support?
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> No external bus at all:

Expansion becomes much too difficult.  Let's put something on, even 
if it's a 0.1"x0.1" header strip with the system (or 3730 8-bit i/o) bus.

> R3000 specific high bandwidth bus (local bus?):

In my opinion, the difficulties outweight the advantages.  Put the
stuff that need high speed on the motherboard, and use a moderate-speed
i/o bus.  Simpler expansion card design would give more expansion cards.

> R3000 specific slow speed 8-bit bus:

IMHO, this is a viable option.  We could put the ethernet and scsi
options onto daughterboards, reducing cost for those who don't use them,
and only moderately increasing cost for those who do.  But I'm not
sold on it 100%.  For those interested in audio, access to the 3730
i/o buses via a header would allow simple design of a/d or d/a modules.

> ISA bus:

Will be useful, and a good marketing move.  I think a partial 
implementation would be sufficient, with about three slots (no more).  
Too many slots gives you loading and layout hassles.  Put SCSI, ethernet 
and basic i/o on the m/board, and you don't need much else.  Works really
well for Sun Microsystems.

A real cheap option is one slot, and source one of those "put the slots
in sideways" adapter boards if you want to use more than one ISA card.

We couldn't allow DMA mastering simply, because of the 24 MByte addressing
limitation of ISA.  ISA bus DMA slaves are simpler.

An option to consider is providing each slot with a different IRQ set,
to eliminate the old IRQ conflict problem with the ISA bus.  This is
feasible with a small number of ISA slots, at least for some IRQ's.
The problem is on those ISA boards that generate more than one IRQ, otherwise
all ISA interrupts from a slot could be routed to one IRQ on the 3730.
Just a thought.

EISA uses expensive chips to interface (licensing fees to Intel built
into prices).  And expensive connectors.  We could add US$100 to the
price, for capabilities not many require.  My opinion is no EISA.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  6 12:07:55 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 17:58:37 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Mipsers !

Sometimes response comes *really* fast :-)

I'll try to answer some questions now. I'll explain
details later because I'm a bit busy today and some
things aren't perfectly clear yet.

> >However, a possible scheme could be:
> >- Waldorf designs the PCB (this would be our part of CAD work)
> >- Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
> >  international market or complete boards only for
> >  the european market and partly assembled ones for
> >  oversea.
> >- SMD is now ok.

> Good. Does this change the current design proposal?

No. We will produce the board as specified by the
riscy group. I just have one wish: We need to have
on-board ethernet.

> >- We provide warranty and email support.
> >- Neil might be the USA distributor of the riscy board.
> >- The "virtual hardware GPL" stays intact.
> >- We do not claim any rights on the design violating the GPL.
> >- We would use the design as the base for some further
> >  development.

> Great news!! I wholeheartedly support this. Of course, I'm
> biased, as I vision myself going to Gemany to see and get the
> board. ;^) ;^) A trip to the US is too expensive.

You might need not to come to germany. Probably we will
sell the boards via mail-order or the like. But you're welcome !

> I couldn't find Waldorf on my (lousy) map, where about is it?

Yes, it's hard to find. You won't find it on a large-scale
european map or the like, probably not even on a german map.
Look for Koblenz and Bonn. Waldorf is exactly in between and
is *very*, *very* small. Only around 1200 lost soules live here...

> [...]
> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

We do not claim the right to do manufacturing exclusively. Of course,
other companies still have the right to produce that board too.

> Everyone is excited at the new development that the Waldorf Electronics 
> company is willing to produce the board. 
> I think this is a positive development: This means that it becomes
> quite a lot more likely that this will not remain vaporware. 

In fact, we are interested to realize the board because of our
interest in a Linux port for mips. Without the board the port
will never happen. I don't doubt that the mips group is able
to make a good design, but there will be definitly some difficulties
to produce and distribute the boards.

Someone asked me (in german) why we are interested in that board
and if there will be any kind of audio on it.
Again, we plan a new kind of network-orientated synthesizer.
No matter what CPU will be on the board, the power will never be
sufficient to generate (not playback) sounds. Sound generation
will be done by some special proprietary hardware and requires
much more than a dumb stereo D/A chip. Therefore, we are not
interested in sound on the board, but we don't mind if the
riscy group wants to have it.
We are interested in the board and in supporting its development
because we are looking for a small, reliable kernel (called Linux)
and a high-speed hardware, preferrably mips-based, from which we can
start to make our own spin-off.

However, this is confidential and I simply can't tell you more.
Nevertheless, we will strictly take care of the GPL and we will
try to document our changes against the original riscy board,
but not before our project is ready and available.
This will take a while...

More Q/A tomorrow ?

Cheers,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  6 12:14:34 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307061615.AA13331@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Board production
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 11:15:18 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307061530.AA08125@ubitrex.mb.ca>; from "Tim Braun" at Jul 6, 93 10:30 am
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

> > - We would use the design as the base for some further
> >   development. 
> 
> Good for us, good for you.
> 
If you would use the board as a base for another project then would that
new design also be under GPL?  If not I have no problem with that.  But
the board would have to be under something similar to the LGPL.

--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 12:28:13 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 10:57:45 CDT."
             <9307061557.AA13240@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 10:26:57 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


    >     - Waldorf produces either complete boards for the
    >       international market or complete boards only for
    >       the european market and partly assembled ones for
    >       oversea.
    > 
    > This is acceptable if the boards are sold to the Linux community 
    > at cost + shipping expenseses.  
    >     

    This would be great but I wouldn't expect it.  As long as everything is
    make public (ie the schematics and PCB layout), others could produce the
    boards.  

Technically, other people *can* produce the boards.  However, if we've 
made design concessions to Waldorf (ie, use of SMT components) the 
number of potential other sources are greatly reduced, and the price 
increased (ie, higher bandwidth bus for Waldorf's propriety boards).  
Also, this will fragment the market (initially *extremely* small), meaning that 
people end up paying more because the producers have bigger problems 
making price breaks for chips because everyone is selling fewer.

    This seems no different than what SLS and others are doing with
    linux codes.  All for a profit.  

That's fine, it's still easy for me to grab Linux for free.  It's 
not easy for me to find another source for an SMT motheroard.

    Neil said they'd also be offering support.

As long as the *hardware* works when I plug the appropriate cables 
in the appropriate places, and I have databooks on the chips (which
I can get for free by calling the appropriate companies), I don't 
give a rats ass about support, and really don't want to subsidize 
handholding for lusers.  I imagine that many of the hacker types 
(rather than users) interested in the board have similar feelings.

    If that is the case they deserve some profit.  Of course too much and no on
   e
    will buy.

The question is :  What does Waldorf want out of it, and what can the 
Linux community give them?  It's my impression that they want a reasonably
priced system to put their propriety product in (this product is their
money maker, rather than the board itself).  If this is the case, then
it is in their best interest to get it into the hackers' hands cheap
(I think that if they gave Linus one, the kernel would work *real*
fast, if Fred got one the ethernet would work, if Eric or I got one SCSI 
would work real soon).  Hobbiests who've been hacking on Linux for 
over a year and a half are going to be more familiar with the system 
than the average waldorf employee.  Selling at cost, or even giving
a few boards away and even a few hundred to a thousand US dollars in cash 
to the right hobbiests could motivate them to have the software working 
quickly and for a much lower cost than it would have for waldorf to do the 
same since Waldorf isn't paying for a full-time engineer, 1/10th of a 
secretary, 1/20th of a janitor, etc.

--------


 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 13:11:01 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 12:08:54 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307061708.AA09602@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Video on the motherboard
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> The question is whether to put the video on the motherboard or not.

> First, video on the board:

I'd like video on the board.  With the following options:
  1.  640x480 monochrome (VGA compatible) o/p.  Simplest
      anything-should-sync output.
  2.  1024x768 mono SVGA o/p.  Most SVGA monitors should
      sync.
  3.  1152x900 mono.  The mega-pixel display.  Efficient
      use of memory.
  4.  colour - well, I guess someone's going to want this. 
      8-bit colour versions of the above modes.  This requires
      more memory bandwidth (likely VRAM and interface) and
      and a RAMDAC.  Personally, I don't want to spend money
      on these, but I can see the advantages of colour, and
      appreciate that this is desirable.

The nice thing about mono is we can do the support with
the 3730 alone, and the bandwidth requirements are low
enough to do it in main memory, no VRAM required.  You can
still connect your existing (colour or mono) VGA monitor.

I suppose the fact that I'm typing this on an ELC (monochrome
Sun SPARC) "colours" my perception of what's acceptable for 
video.

> 	*  TI 34076 RAMDAC (has pixel multiplexing, 256 out of 2^16 colors).
Hmmm, I think the VGA RAMDAC's would get us where we want to go,
cheaper.  But I could easily be wrong.  Isn't this pixel multiplexing
just the "Hi-Colour" 32K colour technique?

> 	*  NSC 1882 (generates Video sync, and DMA requests.?)
I'm not familiar with the NSC 1882.  Is it like the DP8520/1/2 series?


> If the peripheral controller is a 3730, then special logic would be
> provided to generate the shift register load cycles for the VRAM,
> and, of course the main CPU does the video support.

We definitely want the main R3k to be doing the video pixel bashing (dumb
frame buffer).  The feature mix on the 3730 is really hard to pass up.
 
> For those that don't want the video section, the motherboard could
> be sold with empty sockets for the whole video section.  A separate
> video add-on package containing the chips to plug in could be put
> together.

I'm for this, in some form.

> Video on a VESA or local bus connector:
>
> (I understand that VESA and local bus are the same thing; correct me
>  if I'm wrong.)

Well, you're less wrong today than in January.  There were some proprietary
implementations of a local x86 bus for video used last year, but by 
now most things called "local bus" are VESA compliant.  For our purposes
the terms are equivalent.

VESA is probably not worth the effort for a non-x86 bus.  Getting the
spec's costs money.  

Of course, on the other hand, if we could do simple, cheap video
on the m/board for folks (like me) who can't afford big-time video,
and use VESA to get a 24/32 bit 2 MByte video option for those who
want that, I'd be for it.


> Video on the ISA bus (assuming there is one):

I don't think so.  Of course, if the ISA slot is there,
and someone writes a driver, power to them.  But I wouldn't
want to rely on it for video.

> No video at all:

I don't think we can enough people interested in this configuration.

> My personal opinion is that the video should be on the motherboard as
> an option.  That is, the video designed and tested, but motherboards
> shipped with empty sockets.  I'm one of those that want the really cool
> huge colour monitors.

I can't afford a huge colour monitor.  The empty socket approach has
merits.  I would prefer "everyone gets monochrome, sockets for 8-bit
colour VRAM and RAMDAC on board".
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 13:11:01 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 12:08:54 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307061708.AA09602@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Video on the motherboard
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> The question is whether to put the video on the motherboard or not.

> First, video on the board:

I'd like video on the board.  With the following options:
  1.  640x480 monochrome (VGA compatible) o/p.  Simplest
      anything-should-sync output.
  2.  1024x768 mono SVGA o/p.  Most SVGA monitors should
      sync.
  3.  1152x900 mono.  The mega-pixel display.  Efficient
      use of memory.
  4.  colour - well, I guess someone's going to want this. 
      8-bit colour versions of the above modes.  This requires
      more memory bandwidth (likely VRAM and interface) and
      and a RAMDAC.  Personally, I don't want to spend money
      on these, but I can see the advantages of colour, and
      appreciate that this is desirable.

The nice thing about mono is we can do the support with
the 3730 alone, and the bandwidth requirements are low
enough to do it in main memory, no VRAM required.  You can
still connect your existing (colour or mono) VGA monitor.

I suppose the fact that I'm typing this on an ELC (monochrome
Sun SPARC) "colours" my perception of what's acceptable for 
video.

> 	*  TI 34076 RAMDAC (has pixel multiplexing, 256 out of 2^16 colors).
Hmmm, I think the VGA RAMDAC's would get us where we want to go,
cheaper.  But I could easily be wrong.  Isn't this pixel multiplexing
just the "Hi-Colour" 32K colour technique?

> 	*  NSC 1882 (generates Video sync, and DMA requests.?)
I'm not familiar with the NSC 1882.  Is it like the DP8520/1/2 series?


> If the peripheral controller is a 3730, then special logic would be
> provided to generate the shift register load cycles for the VRAM,
> and, of course the main CPU does the video support.

We definitely want the main R3k to be doing the video pixel bashing (dumb
frame buffer).  The feature mix on the 3730 is really hard to pass up.
 
> For those that don't want the video section, the motherboard could
> be sold with empty sockets for the whole video section.  A separate
> video add-on package containing the chips to plug in could be put
> together.

I'm for this, in some form.

> Video on a VESA or local bus connector:
>
> (I understand that VESA and local bus are the same thing; correct me
>  if I'm wrong.)

Well, you're less wrong today than in January.  There were some proprietary
implementations of a local x86 bus for video used last year, but by 
now most things called "local bus" are VESA compliant.  For our purposes
the terms are equivalent.

VESA is probably not worth the effort for a non-x86 bus.  Getting the
spec's costs money.  

Of course, on the other hand, if we could do simple, cheap video
on the m/board for folks (like me) who can't afford big-time video,
and use VESA to get a 24/32 bit 2 MByte video option for those who
want that, I'd be for it.


> Video on the ISA bus (assuming there is one):

I don't think so.  Of course, if the ISA slot is there,
and someone writes a driver, power to them.  But I wouldn't
want to rely on it for video.

> No video at all:

I don't think we can enough people interested in this configuration.

> My personal opinion is that the video should be on the motherboard as
> an option.  That is, the video designed and tested, but motherboards
> shipped with empty sockets.  I'm one of those that want the really cool
> huge colour monitors.

I can't afford a huge colour monitor.  The empty socket approach has
merits.  I would prefer "everyone gets monochrome, sockets for 8-bit
colour VRAM and RAMDAC on board".
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From jcallen@Think.COM  Ukn Jul  6 13:38:34 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Should we have SCSI?
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   From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
   Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:27:23 PDT

   In my opinion, Adaptec have one of the best SCSI controllers that you
   can get for a PC like machine.  Why is it good?  It provides master
   DMA, scatter/gather modes, etc.

Sounds great, but you forgot to mention the part number! :-)

Seriously:

- What part are you thinking of?

- Is it easy to get in small quantities?

- How easy is it to glue to a 3051 memory bus? I looked at the NCR 53C710 a
  while back, and it would have been a pain to glue to the bus.

- Got a number for Adaptec so I can get the doc?

-- Jerry

 
From jcallen@Think.COM  Ukn Jul  6 13:49:27 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Andrew Dyer's message of Thu, 1 Jul 93 22:39 PDT <m0oBdpx-00039LC@zarniwoop.uucp>
Subject: IDT7370
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   Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 22:39 PDT
   From: zarniwoop!adyer@world.std.com (Andrew Dyer)

   I still like the idea of using the LSI Logic family instead of the
   IDT.  For a project like this they have some advantages - mostly that
   the DRAM and bus sizing stuff is on-board.

I can't find the info I used to have on this chip family. I seem to recall
that the bus sizing stuff is very limited; basically, it lets you use a
narrow (8-bit) boot device, and that's it. But I could be wrong.

Are the FPU and non-FPU versions pin compatible?

   ...they all have a 4k/1k i/d cache and come in PGA packaging. (No lousy
   84PLCC sockets!)

Why is PGA a virtue and PLCC "lousy?" My one experience trying to remove a
high pin count PGA from a socket was not good, whereas I've pulled PLCCs
without hassle. PGA is more expensive to manufacture, too.

-- Jerry

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 13:55:42 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 13:35:52 EDT."
             <9307061735.AA04097@luna.think.com> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 11:54:31 -0600
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--------

       From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
       Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:27:23 PDT
    
       In my opinion, Adaptec have one of the best SCSI controllers that you
       can get for a PC like machine.  Why is it good?  It provides master
       DMA, scatter/gather modes, etc.
    
    Sounds great, but you forgot to mention the part number! :-)

If I interpreted his post correctly,  he was refering to the 1542 ISA 
controllers, built arround Adaptec's own chip, and commenting how 
all of the features that made it great were not needed on our 
system (especially with the Adaptec's $200 price tag).

I've never seen an Adaptec chip on a non-adaptec product, and the chip
probably isn't suited to what we need.  Personally, I like the NCR53c90A/
NCR53cf90 chips.  Not nearly as hard to interface as the 53c700 series,
not as hard to program (the 53c700 series have onboard microcontrolllers,
and are best programmed with NCR's SCRIPTS development tools), not as
featureful but probably well suited to our purposes.  In case you 
missed it, here's my posting regarding the chip :

(BTW, a QFP which would use less realestate is also available,
there are also a 53c94/53cf94 chips which offer a 8 or 16 bit 
wide bus (you have to demux it though), I'm not sure about 
pricing on these)

--
Ok, I called NCR's SCSI division, got some literature on the 53c90 
series, saw that the 53c90 looks like what we wanted, and talked to
the local NCR distributor, Electrodyne (303)-695-903 for pricing
information.

Overview : 

The NCR 53c90(A or B) can sustain 6M/sec asynchronous on a one 
foot cable, worst case 4.5M/sec on a one foot cable,
3M/sec on a maximum length (single ended) cable (provided
that the internal drivers are used.  Note that asynch. SCSI
is only spec'd to 2.3M/sec, and for higher transfer rates 
sync. SCSI must be used). It also does sync.  SCSI to 5M/sec.  
A fast version of the chip is also available, I'm less clear
on it's specs.  


The controller is totally integrated, ie there are onchip
SCSI drivers, etc - we only need to add decode circuitry 
and a 25Mhz clock (Ok, technically it requires a 10Mhz clock
for async, 12 Mhz for sync, but the sync. SCSI clock
is derived from the external clock and the minimum divisor
is five - so we need a 25Mhz crystal oscilator for this thing 
to get 5M/sec sync. SCSI).

It comes in a 68 lead PLCC, .910" square.

The host/DMA interface is 8 bits wide, so it's best on an 
8 bit bus of the 3730.

The controller is semi-intelligent, ie it supports
commands to "arbitrate, select, send message, then 6,10,
or twelve command bytes and generate interrupt when
done", "transfer information", "return status byte 
followed by message byte".  In the normal case, 
we'll service four interrupts per command (one for "Select
with ATN sequence", one when reselection completes,
one for information transfer complete, one for command
complete). We'll set up for one DMA transfer per command.
(Essentially all I/O can be done directly by
the CPU or the DMA, except for sync. SCSI DATAIN/DATAOUT
which can only be transfered via DMA) - either one through the 
16 byte FIFO buffer.  Personally, I'd DMA the DATAIN/DATAOUT
SCSI phases so we only have the overhead of one DMA controller
setup, the command bytes, message / status in, etc will fit in the 
16 byte FIFO buffer.

Pricing : 

59c90A
1-49 : $17.60
50-99 : $16.35
100-999: $15.20

( In light of this, we definately want to go with the cf flavor)

59cf90 :
1-49: $19.45
50-99 : $18.60
100-999 : $16.80

Important question : 


With SCSI, you want to minimize the command overhead per block, so 
you want to read/write the maximum number of blocks per command.  How 
ever, buffer-cache is non-contiguous, so you need scatter-gather-support 
to do it.

Without scatter/gather, you end up doing one read/write per 
block and performance can be quite abysmal (as in, before we 
implemented scatter-gather in the Linux SCSI code, we saw 
60K/sec through the file system, after 500-700K/sec on 
Seagates, more on reasonable hardware).

So : Does the 3051/3081 / 3730 combination support DMA to non-contiguous
pieces of memory for one DMA transfer? (With motorola 68k machines, 
DMA is done through the paging unit so this is automatic, 
Intel doesn't do it which is why all decent PC SCSI boards must bu$ ma$ter)?

--

Right now the SCSI disk driver tries for  a 16 sector readahead (ie, 8K),
this is small enough so that we can DMA directly to an intermediate 
buffer and copy it back on the interrupt we recieve after the information
transfer phase is complete, so I retract my whining about scatter/gather
in hardware.


 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  6 14:46:21 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Call for Votes???
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 14:43:49 -0500 (EDT)
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I was thinking of setting up a semiautomated voting system for the mips
design.

Granted the people who actually design the circuit board have the final (or at
least more) say.  But I thought it would be interesting to see the results 
anyways.

I was thinking of setting up vote@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu asking the following:
(* this is just a proposal don't vote yet *)

Memory:
8 simm slots?
16 simm slots?
Conventional 4MB x 9 simms?

Bus:
ISA ?
Vesa?
Propietary 8 bit?
Propietary 16 bit?

On board Video:
Color?
Dumb frame buffer on board?
3041 for video?
Other chip?
No video on board?

Devices on board:
Scsi ?
Ethernet? 
2 serial ports?
4 serial ports?
parallel?
IDE?

If you think it's a good idea email me, if your favorite design isn't 
represented email me.


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From msuomala@beta.hut.fi  Ukn Jul  6 15:12:33 1993
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From: Matti Suomalainen <msuomala@beta.hut.fi>
Message-Id: <9307061910.AA10417@beta.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Call for Votes???
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 22:10:07 +0200 (EET DST)
In-Reply-To: <9307061844.AA12841@gossip.pyramid.com> from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 6, 93 02:43:49 pm
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Good idea to vote, but i think we need some price information on various
parts as well.

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  6 15:53:46 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Call for Votes???
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 15:51:59 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307061910.AA10417@beta.hut.fi> from "Matti Suomalainen" at Jul 6, 93 10:10:07 pm
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> 
> Good idea to vote, but i think we need some price information on various
> parts as well.
> 
I can go through the list and take the estimates, but for the most
part I haven't heard of any estimates for most of the options.


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 15:59:48 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 14:57:52 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307061957.AA10528@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI?
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> SCSI on the motherboard:

> For those wanting SCSI, the motherboard wins hands down.

I definitely agree.  And the proliferation of CD-ROM is
going to make SCSI more desirable through the next 3-5 years.

The part could be socketed, though PLCC sockets drive me up
the wall around here with unreliable connections.  

There are a number of SCSI controller chips worth looking
at, including the NCR 5380 and derivatives (including the
NatSemi DP8490) and the Western Digital 33c93 and derivatives.

I would tend towards the 5380 type, as they are multiple sourced
(cheap), well-known (Seagate ST-01), and can provide reasonable
performance.  PLCC packages are common.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From drew@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 16:34:11 1993
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Message-Id: <199307062033.AA13755@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 14:57:52 MDT."
             <9307061957.AA10528@ubitrex.mb.ca> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 14:33:07 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--------

    
    > SCSI on the motherboard:
    
    > For those wanting SCSI, the motherboard wins hands down.
    
    I definitely agree.  And the proliferation of CD-ROM is
    going to make SCSI more desirable through the next 3-5 years.
    
    The part could be socketed, though PLCC sockets drive me up
    the wall around here with unreliable connections.  
    
    There are a number of SCSI controller chips worth looking
    at, including the NCR 5380 and derivatives (including the
    NatSemi DP8490) and the Western Digital 33c93 and derivatives.

    I would tend towards the 5380 type, as they are multiple sourced
    (cheap), well-known (Seagate ST-01), and can provide reasonable
    performance.  

Nope.

I wrote the Linux Seagate ST-01 (ie, with the Nat. Semi part) driver, and 
I would avoid this part like the plague.  The designer obviously failed his 
introductory digital circuits class where they taught FSM design, because
the chip can't tell you when the SCSI REQ line transitioned low->high,
only when it's currently high.  Faster SCSI devices work OK if you 
just sit in a tight loop and blindly write to the port, with slower
SCSI devices, you have to loop, wait for it to go low then high, and 
be sure to timeout because you'll miss it a lot.  The chip can only 
generate an interrupt when the SCSI SEL line is raised, so most of the 
time you sit arround spinning your wheels in a loop (and you can't 
DMA to it because you need to make sure the status registers have the 
right values)

IMHO, the 53cf90 series is the best choice I've seen so far, I don't
know about the Western Digital chip, but it rings a bell as the chip
used in the WD7000 controller.

--------


 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 16:55:40 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 15:53:34 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307062053.AA10688@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet on the motherboard?
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> The real question though is that if an ISA bus is provided, will
> a motherboard solution provide so much extra gain in performance to
> justify not using an ISA card?

I believe cost favours the m/board approach.

> Also, there are many problems getting a reliable Ethernet sub-system
> (as some here have suggested).  Do we really want to get involved
> with debugging Ethernet hardware?

> I have two machines at home: a 386/33 and 486/33, connected by Ethernet.

I think many of those initially involved will have an x86 based PC
box.  This is an argument in favor of ethernet on board, because 
it should allow using networking during the port.

> Assuming that a user's 'riscy' workstation is using motherboard video
> and SCSI, then the only heavy user of the ISA bus left is the Ethernet
> card.

Relying on ISA for ethernet opens configuration issues that we can avoid.

Another question is:

  10BaseT or 10Base2 or AUI?

I think the NatSemi DP8390 would give us good bang for our buck.  A dip 
version (48-pin DIP) is available.  Optional population (again) is a 
reasonable idea for the buyers, but is going to become intractible for 
the producer.

The DP83905/DP83902 from NatSemi has en/dec built in for ease of use with 
10BaseT.  10Base2 still requires a separate interface chip (DP8392).
 
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 17:07:04 1993
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Message-Id: <199307062105.AA02420@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet on the motherboard? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 15:53:34 CDT."
             <9307062053.AA10688@ubitrex.mb.ca> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 15:05:44 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


    > The real question though is that if an ISA bus is provided, will
    > a motherboard solution provide so much extra gain in performance to
    > justify not using an ISA card?
    
    I believe cost favours the m/board approach.

Agreed.
    
    > Also, there are many problems getting a reliable Ethernet sub-system
    > (as some here have suggested).  Do we really want to get involved
    > with debugging Ethernet hardware?

Remember APPLICATION NOTES.  The sample implementation *will* 
work.
    
    Another question is:
    
      10BaseT or 10Base2 or AUI?

I'd vote for a Thinnet/AUI jumper selectable configuration.  Thinnet 
is cheap to wire, although trancievers are about $60 if you buy in small 
quantities, and it just takes another connector and a block of jumpers
to have AUI too.


    I think the NatSemi DP8390 would give us good bang for our buck.  

Agreed.  You think the dual-port memory approach is the way to go?

    A dip 
    version (48-pin DIP) is available.  Optional population (again) is a 
    reasonable idea for the buyers, but is going to become intractible for 
    the producer.

The Nat. Semi part 8390 is available in both PLCC and DIP parts, the former 
will use less realestate though.  

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 17:19:06 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 16:16:34 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307062116.AA10815@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI?
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> 
>     I would tend towards the 5380 type, as they are multiple sourced
>     (cheap), well-known (Seagate ST-01), and can provide reasonable
>     performance.  
> 
> Nope.
> 
> I wrote the Linux Seagate ST-01 (ie, with the Nat. Semi part) driver, and 
> I would avoid this part like the plague.  ...

I had heard the DP5380 had bugs, but didn't know the extent of them.  It's
precisely this experience that's useful to us, though.  The derivative chips 
(dp8490, 53c80, 53c90) chips were more what I meant, and the similarity can 
be useful.  Choosing a chip that's a complete unknown leads to a repeat 
performance (return of the plague).

> IMHO, the 53cf90 series is the best choice I've seen so far, I don't
> know about the Western Digital chip, but it rings a bell as the chip
> used in the WD7000 controller.

NCR 53cf90 sounds fine, assuming the pricing holds (US$19.45).  I assume
the "cf" is faster than the "c"?  The data you gave didn't say why one would
pay the US$1.85 more for the "cf".

You know, I've been watching/collecting data on chips like this for years, 
and do you think I can find any of it in my office now?  Not a chance.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  6 17:22:55 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 16:20:13 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307062120.AA10839@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet on the motherboard?
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
>     
>     > Also, there are many problems getting a reliable Ethernet sub-system
  ...
> 
> Remember APPLICATION NOTES.  The sample implementation *will* 
> work.

It better.  It's the NE2000.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  6 17:27:27 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 16:16:34 CDT."
             <9307062116.AA10815@ubitrex.mb.ca> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 15:25:30 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@caesar.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


    > IMHO, the 53cf90 series is the best choice I've seen so far, I don't
    > know about the Western Digital chip, but it rings a bell as the chip
    > used in the WD7000 controller.
    
    NCR 53cf90 sounds fine, assuming the pricing holds (US$19.45).  I assume
    the "cf" is faster than the "c"?  The data you gave didn't say why one woul
   d
    pay the US$1.85 more for the "cf".

The 53cf90/53c94 chips are fast-SCSI II versions of  the 53c90/53c94.
    
--------


 
From dfishman@csn.org  Ukn Jul  6 18:32:48 1993
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From: Dan Fishman <dfishman@csn.org>
Message-Id: <199307062229.AA17033@teal.csn.org>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 16:29:14 -0600 (MDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307061439.AA08211@gossip.pyramid.com> from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 6, 93 10:38:53 am
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> 
> > 
> > How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> > in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> > suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!
> 
> Since a company offered to provide free serivces to help in a GPL design
> of a mips based unix box.  If you find others please let us know.
> 

May I suggest that when logic design are completed that we offer that level
of design to any fab shops who wish to layout and fab some prototypes.  I
may offer up such a bid through subcontractors if I get commercial value from
the design in other markets (free service to the netters).  I thought I
understood that their offer for free service was in exchange for some marketing
rights to the product.  Perhaps I misunderstood what they were getting in
exchange.

> > Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
> > earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
> > clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.
> 
> This is true, but those volunteers also have to appreciate services
> that aren't for free like building a motherboard with SMT chips.

Even volunteers get something back (a free board or at least at component
costs... pride... credit for a job well done... accomplishment...).  I
guess I'm wondering what other benefit this one "volunteer" is getting
in return... it sounds far more tangible than these other benefits.  That
is fine but perhaps others would offer even more "free" service in exchange
for material (commercial) benefits.

> 
> > If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> > moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> > should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> > bids. 
> By my understanding Waldorf has offered to help in the design for free.
> Since it's going to be GPL you can easily request the design and build
> it yourself.
> 
> > I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> > potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> > collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.
> 
> Well help in the design (which has already been volunteered) and when
> production starts put in a bid.)

I already volunteered some time ago as a SW jock.  My point is that if
there are material/commercial gains in other HW related aspects of 
such voluntary efforts, I may seek to volunteer there as well.  I have
already had significant exposure to the IDT 3730 (under early non-
disclosure) and can probably be of significant help in using the chip
(both in HW and SW design).

> 
> I would personally favor any board produced by design particpants 
> then a profit motivated source.
> 

Again, perhaps I mi-understood... Isn't Waldorf "volunteering" in exchange 
for some commercial exploitation of the board?  Please help me understand
(no sarchasm intended... seriouly please explain).

> Waldorf has alot to gain from this, access to a mips designed
> motherboard for there own purposes, and we have alot to
> gain from them (access to there production facilities) sounds like
> a great partnership.    
> 
> -- 
> Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
> Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
> Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok
> 
> 


 
From paul@suite.sw.oz.au  Ukn Jul  6 19:03:58 1993
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From: paul@suite.sw.oz.au (Paul Antoine)
Message-Id: <199307062224.AA03126@suite.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Board production WHOOAAA!
To: riscy@pyramid.com (R3000 Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 08:24:16 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199307061419.AA00197@teal.csn.org> from "Dan Fishman" at Jul 6, 93 08:19:04 am
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
X-Face: 
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> How did we suddenly get a commercial exploitation of this voluntary effort
> in the picture!  If we are opening the floor for commercial bidders, I 
> suggest we do just that!!! OPEN THE FLOOR!

But we have... see the circuit design is/was always going to be GPL'd,
and this does not change.  ANYONE can do a PCB design from the cicuit,
to which they would then hold copyright.

Were we to do a PCB layout as a co-operative effort, then that too
would presumably be GPL'd, and anyone could produce boards from that
artwork.  This would STILL not prevent someone from selling machines
based on that board, except that the buyer would then presumably
acquire the right to have access to all design information.

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for commercial exploitation... if those exploited
> earn something for their labors (its called a job)!  Volunteers should have a 
> clear picture of who is gaining from their altruism.

Were we to want to do an SMT design, then the appropriate CAD software
would have to be sought (which in Australia sells for $5K), and us
volunteers would have to bear that cost.  Those of us experienced in
PCB layout (Neil, myself, others?) would then need to spend our
precious 'spare' time doing the layout.

What we really gain from Waldorf is access to their CAD expertise and
tools (i.e.  less time needed to design with cool CAD tools, and
experience in using them), and the increased economies of scale
because they would presumably add significantly to the number we were
going to make.

> If we are entertaining bids for commercial partners who earn profit by
> moving this board and Linux port into commercial areas, then perhaps we
> should set some guidlines for such bids and accept open public (net email)
> bids.  I for example may be interested in such a venture if there is
> potential for profit!  I work as a contract SW jock and have in the past
> collaberated with HW jocks and FAB shops for PCB production.

There's absolutely nothing stopping this occuring, and in fact
companies would be free to use the GPL'd circuit design for their own
purposes WITHOUT talking to us volunteers at all, which is what
Waldorf could have done.  They have, however, chosen to let us know so
that we have the OPTION of buying boards from them.

Anyway, I think the idea has merit, and from what I can tell from
telephone discussions with Neil, Waldorf appear to be genuine in their
desire to give us access to their boards at cost price.


Paul

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Paul Antoine, Softway Pty Ltd			           Net: paul@sw.oz.au
PO Box 305, Strawberry Hills, NSW 2012, Australia          Tel: +61 2 698 2322
Level 2, 79 Myrtle St, Chippendale, NSW 2008, Australia    Fax: +61 2 699 9174

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From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  6 19:20:57 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307062319.AA28506@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 16:19:39 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307061735.AA04097@luna.think.com>; from "Jerry Callen" at Jul 6, 93 1:35 pm
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>    From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
>    Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 21:27:23 PDT
> 
>    In my opinion, Adaptec have one of the best SCSI controllers that you
>    can get for a PC like machine.  Why is it good?  It provides master
>    DMA, scatter/gather modes, etc.
> 
> Sounds great, but you forgot to mention the part number! :-)
> 
> Seriously:
> 
> - What part are you thinking of?
> 
> - Is it easy to get in small quantities?
> 
> - How easy is it to glue to a 3051 memory bus? I looked at the NCR 53C710 a
>   while back, and it would have been a pain to glue to the bus.
> 
> - Got a number for Adaptec so I can get the doc?

I was refering to the 1542, 1742, etc boards.  I called Adaptec and was told
that they did not sell any of their chips; just boards.  Despite this
I have seen Adaptec chips on disk drives, and maybe one or two other
places, but the point still stands: we cannot use Adaptec at all.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From tor@tss.no  Ukn Jul  6 21:22:58 1993
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 03:15:30 +0200
From: tor@tss.no (Tor Arntsen)
Message-Id: <9307070115.AA06457@unas.tss.no>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: My updated wishlist
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

My updated wishlist:

* SCSI on board.  I wouldn't mind if it was fast and wide, but that's not
  mandatory for me.  The 53c90 is 8-bit, the 53cf90 is 8-bit fast, the 53cf94 
  can do fast and wide; is this the correct interpretation of the previous
  postings?

* Ethernet on board if feasible.  
  BTW, my ISA 3c503/16 could achieve > 800KB/sec with net-1, less with net-2.
  Donald Becker reported more than 900KB/sec with the WD8013.  Both the 3c503 
  and the 8013 are NatSemi DP8390 based.
  So ISA boards can give quite good performance, BUT also *sucks* CPU!
  (runninng ttcp.)  Would it be efficient to have some DMA-based Ethernet? 
  If so, I guess it should not be put into any ISA bus slot then, or what?
  (If it's on board, and if it's only one interface type, I would prefer
  BNC for thinnet.  If you want good arguments, see Donald Beckers' 
  'Ethercard hardware tutorial' posted now and then at c.o.l :-)

* 8-bit Video on board (actually, I would love to be able to expand to
  24-bit, but that's not mandatory).  Sounds better to me to have a quite 
  'dumb' version than using any 'intelligent' device (i.e. no 34010, certainly 
  no VGA).
  I think at least 1152x900 (the Sun 'standard') is needed.  Working with an 
  A4 (letter) document is not easy even with 1024x768.  I worked for one year
  with a very ergonomically Tandberg X-terminal with an extremely good display,
  but, alas, 1024x768 is just too cramped.  So now I'm sitting here with a
  cheap, not very good focused, not too sharp MAG monitor.  I get flashbacks
  when I move my eyes.  Real bad compared to the Tandberg.  *But* it can do
  1152x900 with XFree86...
  And 1152x900x8 just fits in 1MB (VRAM, of course).

* Up to 64MB RAM at *minimum*.  Someone mentioned that code for MIPS is about
  40% bigger than code for i486.  So compared to that those 64MB is only like
  about 45MB on a PC, *which is not much*.  I'm using 16MB + 32MB swap at the
  moment..  In my opinion the max. limit should be about twice the size that
  one *thinks* one will ever need.  If it ends up with 64MB max, ok.  I hope
  I can live with that.  Please take my comments as just.. comments.  I don't 
  want to start any war about this.. :-)

* RTclock on board, of course

* A couple of serial ports, one for the mouse and one extra.  It seems like
  the opinions goes toward an (ISA) expansion bus, so more ports could be
  added later.

* CPU: r3k is ok, the r4k2 would be even better of course.
  I'm a bit worried about not having the possibility of adding an external
  cache.  It's expensive to put in that fast static RAM of course, but it's
  my impression that a good fast big cache could even outweigh using slower
  DRAM (not that I'm suggesting using slow DRAM :-).
  I must admit that I know next to nothing about the complexity level
  of designing in an external cache, can anyone say something about chips,
  cost, and design complexity level?

* Timers.. I may have missed something, but don't we need some kind of 
  timers to provide interrupts for the time slicing etc.  I would also like 
  to play around with some high-definition timers (what about RT-Linux..).
  Are there any built-in timers able to provide interrupts inside one of 
  those smart I/O chips already mentioned?

* Keyboard controller on board, for IBM style keyboards (could it handle
  PS/2 style keyboards?)

* Bus: I don't care actually, with the above I don't need much more.  
  The only thing I could think of would be a floppy interface, to boot my 
  root/boot floppy when I screwed up something.

That's all I can think of.

Tor
(tor@tss.no - on vacation mid-July to mid-August, not reading mails then)

 
From adyer@zarniwoop  Ukn Jul  6 21:45:09 1993
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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 09:53 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: ease of implementation, optional features, etc.
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To all that are worried about the analog side of Ethernet, it's really
not a problem - You just follow the App note like the man says.  Most
controllers provide an AUI (15 pin style) port.  It is relatively trivial
to add on-board Twisted-pair or Thinnet connections.  Some controllers like the
Nat Semi AT?LANTIC provide the twisted pair xcvr in the chip so you get
twisted-pair and AUI.  Coax is extra.  Also most PC ethernet controllers
are reasonable simple to hook to a 3051 if you are willing to ignore having
all the regisers in exactly the place you would expect them.

As for whoever said the solution could be under $30 on the motherboard
- NOT!  most reasonable chips are $20-$30 in 1000s quantity - how are
we going to get the whole shot in $30?

I will volunteer to design the ethernet I/F, although it will be
tough to coordinate from CA.  I would propose a AUI/coax system 
with an optional twisted pair interface unless the ethernet of choice 
has twisted pair on-board.  I like the nat semi AT/LANTIC since it is
based on the venerable 8390 and has twited pair already.

Whaddaya think?



 
From adyer@zarniwoop  Ukn Jul  6 21:45:13 1993
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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:04 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Bill Broadley's message of Tue, 6 Jul 1993 10:29:00 -0500 (EDT) <9307061429.AA06657@gossip.pyramid.com>
Subject: waldorf/board production
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I haven't seen this hardware GPL, but I would want the following to be
freely available:

Schematics in a non-proprietary format (EDIF)
CAD data in a non-proprietary format (gerber)
All programmable logic in some format - be it ABEL, PALASM, CUPL
  whatever

So what design systems are out there?  I have ViewLogic and Valid for 
capture (at work).  Perhaps we could design the board using mostly free tools
running under Linux on x86s?


 
From adyer@zarniwoop  Ukn Jul  6 21:46:18 1993
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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:25 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Jerry Callen's message of Tue, 6 Jul 93 13:47:20 EDT <9307061747.AA04298@luna.think.com>
Subject: LSI chips & local bus
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Large PLCC sockets usually have reliability problems with time. PLCC
sockets rely on tension to keep the contacts together.  If they fail
the sockets usually break in the corner and some tension is lost -
with heat stress the contact will open and close.  Very annoying to debug.
PGA sockets are better bcause they have machined pins which make better
contact, and do not rely on tension to make contact.  Yes they are hard
to remove - they're supposed to be.  If you have the correct tool, it is not 
so difficult.  If we make a board with PLCC sockets, make it SMT sockets,
so I can pull it off and SOLDER my CPU to the board!

The LSI logic 33000 and 33050 are pin compatible as far as I know.

Also RE: local busses - I say for expansion that we should bring all
of the CPU local bus signal to a connector(s) and make sure that the
drivers on the PCB are tri-state or open collector.  That way for
minimal cost those of us who want to play with fast CPU interfaces
can.  You don't even have to stuff these extras - we who can design
such a thing can probably solder.

 
From aki@akix.cts.com  Ukn Jul  6 22:20:12 1993
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 18:57 PDT
From: aki@akix.cts.com (Aki Atoji)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Should we have SCSI?
In-Reply-To: <9307062116.AA10815@ubitrex.mb.ca>
References: <9307062116.AA10815@ubitrex.mb.ca>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



   >     I would tend towards the 5380 type, as they are multiple sourced
   >     (cheap), well-known (Seagate ST-01), and can provide reasonable
   >     performance.  
   > 
   > Nope.
   > 
   > I wrote the Linux Seagate ST-01 (ie, with the Nat. Semi part) driver, and 
   > I would avoid this part like the plague.  ...

I've programmed 5380 in embedded SCSI arena as well.  I concur with
avoiding the chip.  The problem with this chip is that it's not much
more than a SCSI 'latch', and that this chip requires a lot of hand
holding by the driver code which tends to be a lot of work.  The
driver must step through each of the command phases, pretty much
monitoring the SCSI bus directly through the chip.  While this is an
excellent way to learn the actual SCSI bus operation (you start to
memorize waveforms this way), it takes a lot of code and uses up CPU
time.

The 53C9x series are definitely not this way and is recommended.  I
believe one of the PD OS's (BSD Net-2 tape?  Mach?) even had driver
for 53C94 in it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aki Atoji              Unix, X, Networking and Embedded Realtime Consulting
           aki@akix.cts.com                   crash!akix!aki@trout.nosc.mil
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From af4@ukc.ac.uk  Ukn Jul  6 22:41:55 1993
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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 93 03:25:14 +0100
From: af4@ukc.ac.uk
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: IDE, floppies, serial & stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


We appear to be homing in on the idea of implementing an ISA bus, albeit
with the tricky bits chopped off. If we go along with this, might I suggest
we use one of those cheapo IDE multi-I/O cards for the floppy controller,
IDE hard disk controller, parallel port and additional serial ports? I'm
suggesting that we include this as a standard extra, bundled with the 
motherboard. I'm sure this would keep the IDE people amongst us happy, and
would be cheaper than designing our own. An IDE multi-I/O card costs about
10 UK pounds ($15 US) over here, and all of the connectors alone would cost
around 20 UK pounds! We could probably get them a few cents cheaper too, if
we're ordering a batch of 100 or so.

Andy.


 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  7 00:51:20 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307070449.AA14490@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: My updated wishlist
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 21:49:56 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307070115.AA06457@unas.tss.no>; from "Tor Arntsen" at Jul 7, 93 3:15 am
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> * Ethernet on board if feasible.  
>   BTW, my ISA 3c503/16 could achieve > 800KB/sec with net-1, less with net-2.
>   Donald Becker reported more than 900KB/sec with the WD8013.  Both the 3c503 
>   and the 8013 are NatSemi DP8390 based.
>   So ISA boards can give quite good performance, BUT also *sucks* CPU!
>   (runninng ttcp.)  Would it be efficient to have some DMA-based Ethernet? 
>   If so, I guess it should not be put into any ISA bus slot then, or what?
>   (If it's on board, and if it's only one interface type, I would prefer
>   BNC for thinnet.  If you want good arguments, see Donald Beckers' 
>   'Ethercard hardware tutorial' posted now and then at c.o.l :-)

It may be possible to get the IDT 3730 to do DMA to an ISA peripheral
even though the peripheral doesn't have DMA support.  Thus, we may be
able to get this type of performance without tying up the CPU any more
than it would be if the Ethernet were on the MB.

> * CPU: r3k is ok, the r4k2 would be even better of course.
>   I'm a bit worried about not having the possibility of adding an external
>   cache.  It's expensive to put in that fast static RAM of course, but it's
>   my impression that a good fast big cache could even outweigh using slower
>   DRAM (not that I'm suggesting using slow DRAM :-).
>   I must admit that I know next to nothing about the complexity level
>   of designing in an external cache, can anyone say something about chips,
>   cost, and design complexity level?

To get real performance, a CPUs cache must have close ties to the MMU.
On the R3000A, the cache controller is part of the CPU and presents
a 'tag' bus in addition to the regular address and data busses.  So
to attach cache to the R3000, you just add chips.  Unfortunately, you
also have to add a read buffer and some write buffers to assist the
pipeline.  On the 3051 series, all this is in the CPU chip.  To reduce
pin count (thus making a cheaper package), the tag bus is not available
outside the chip.  So we would have to implement a cache controller
outside.  The put this another way, it costs too much.

> * Timers.. I may have missed something, but don't we need some kind of 
>   timers to provide interrupts for the time slicing etc.  I would also like 
>   to play around with some high-definition timers (what about RT-Linux..).
>   Are there any built-in timers able to provide interrupts inside one of 
>   those smart I/O chips already mentioned?

Both the 3730 (peripheral controller) and the 3041 (I/O co-processor)
have a 24-bit timer which can be clocked quite fast.  So both peripheral
controller solutions that I proposed would cover that.

> * Keyboard controller on board, for IBM style keyboards (could it handle
>   PS/2 style keyboards?)

AT style keyboards will be supported.  If PS/2 ones are not compatible,
they will not work.  I can see no motivating reason why the should be.


-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  7 00:56:24 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307070455.AA15062@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: ease of implementation, optional features, etc.
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 21:55:27 PDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oCtml-00039LC@zarniwoop.uucp>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 5, 93 9:53 am
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> As for whoever said the solution could be under $30 on the motherboard
> - NOT!  most reasonable chips are $20-$30 in 1000s quantity - how are
> we going to get the whole shot in $30?

Will it be less than $120?  (The cost of a WD8003e)

> I will volunteer to design the ethernet I/F, although it will be
> tough to coordinate from CA.

Great.  I live near San Jose.  If you are close, we could get together.
I can provide access to some CAD software if you need it.

On the subject of CAD, there is that chip design CAD software 'ocean',
that apparently has schematic capture.  Does anyone know if that could
be used to do schematics of a board rather than a chip?

>  .......  I would propose a AUI/coax system 
> with an optional twisted pair interface unless the ethernet of choice 
> has twisted pair on-board.  I like the nat semi AT/LANTIC since it is
> based on the venerable 8390 and has twited pair already.

My pick is for a AUI/coax.  AUI to twisted transcevers can be had cheap.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  7 00:57:55 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: My updated wishlist 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jul 1993 21:49:56 PDT."
             <9307070449.AA14490@sword.eng.pyramid.com> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 22:56:35 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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    > * Keyboard controller on board, for IBM style keyboards (could it handle
    >   PS/2 style keyboards?)
    
    AT style keyboards will be supported.  If PS/2 ones are not compatible,
    they will not work.  I can see no motivating reason why the should be.

PS/2 keyboards are hardware/software compatable, the connector is the 
only difference (6 pin mini-DIN vs. 5 pin DIN) and commercial adapter 
cables are available.

--------


 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  7 01:01:22 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307070500.AA15394@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: waldorf/board production
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 22:00:05 PDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oCtyJ-00039LC@zarniwoop.uucp>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 5, 93 10:04 am
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> I haven't seen this hardware GPL, but I would want the following to be
> freely available:
> 
> Schematics in a non-proprietary format (EDIF)

Schematics would be GPL.

> CAD data in a non-proprietary format (gerber)

waldorf are considering doing the PCB CAD, which means that this
and the gerber would not be covered by the GPL.

> All programmable logic in some format - be it ABEL, PALASM, CUPL
>   whatever

The stuff would be GPL'ed.  In short, anything that we design ourselves
is GPL.  Anything the production company does (Waldorf) belongs to them.
I think this is fine.  Once the schematics are right, its not too hard
to make a PCB.

> So what design systems are out there?  I have ViewLogic and Valid for 
> capture (at work).  Perhaps we could design the board using mostly free tools
> running under Linux on x86s?

Could 'ocean' (chip design software) be used to maintain schematics for
a board rather than a chip?

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  7 03:32:28 1993
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From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307070729.AA08918@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: PGA versus PLCC.
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Hi everyone,

A while ago everyone was against surface mounted devices, and all PRO
PGA packages. Currently SMD is no longer a NO-NO, but the discussion is
still going. 

I'd like to add that in my experience the PGA package (that is the
difference between the PLCC housing and the same chip in PGA) costs
almost $200! We have pricing info on the Quicklogic programmable
logic chips: they cost $70 for the PLCC version, and $150 for the PGA 
version.

					Roger.

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  7 05:57:22 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 11:44:24 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Board production
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Dear Mipsers,

Neil and me had a phone talk this morning and we will talk again
this evening to find a solution which should satisfy all members
of the riscy group and hopefully the complete Linux community.

Either Neil (propably better because his english isn't that
restricted) or myself will inform you about details then.

However, we cannot tell you about exact costs as long it isn't clear
what is on board and what is not.

Cheers,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  7 06:16:06 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 12:05:14 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  My updated wishlist
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> [lots of stuff I agree with deleted]
> * Timers.. I may have missed something, but don't we need some kind of 
>  timers to provide interrupts for the time slicing etc.  I would also like 
>  to play around with some high-definition timers (what about RT-Linux..).
>  Are there any built-in timers able to provide interrupts inside one of 
>  those smart I/O chips already mentioned?

Timers would be quiet good, at least one dumb MC6840 (slow 8bit stuff)
for 70 cents or so. Perhaps a cheap Intel chip would also be ok.
The 3730 contains two counters, one 9bit "timeout counter" intended
to be used for signaling bus and dma cycle timeout and one 27bit counter for
general purpose. I don't know if the RTclock can generate interupts for
scheduling and so on, but if this is the case we would already have one
free timer.

> * Keyboard controller on board, for IBM style keyboards (could it handle
>  PS/2 style keyboards?)

I don't see any reason why we should support PS/2 style keyboards.

> * Bus: I don't care actually, with the above I don't need much more.  
>   The only thing I could think of would be a floppy interface, to boot my 
>   root/boot floppy when I screwed up something.

Someone mentioned that we could use a $15 ISA multi-I/O card with
integrated floppy controller. I can't imagine that we could make it cheaper.
One point more for ISA.

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  7 06:33:10 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 12:18:35 +0200
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	id AA12595; Wed, 7 Jul 93 12:18:35 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: LSI chips & local bus
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> Large PLCC sockets usually have reliability problems with time. PLCC
> sockets rely on tension to keep the contacts together.  If they fail
> the sockets usually break in the corner and some tension is lost -
> with heat stress the contact will open and close.  Very annoying to debug.

Partially true. We use PLCC sockets in production. Yes, each 1000th
socket or so makes trouble after some time. But our products
are used "on the road". I doubt that you go on tour with your mips board :-)

> PGA sockets are better bcause they have machined pins which make better
> contact, and do not rely on tension to make contact.  Yes they are hard
> to remove - they're supposed to be.  If you have the correct tool, it is not 
> so difficult.  If we make a board with PLCC sockets, make it SMT sockets,
> so I can pull it off and SOLDER my CPU to the board!

PGA is *extremely* expensive. Nothing for our board, believe me.

> The LSI logic 33000 and 33050 are pin compatible as far as I know.

Hmm. Although this only my personal point of view, I'll tell you:
We haven't made good experience with LSI Logic. Not that their
parts don't work or the like... Their support is simply not that
good as the IDT support is.
And finally, I don't like their german salesman, but that's not
of interest.

> Also RE: local busses - I say for expansion that we should bring all
> of the CPU local bus signal to a connector(s) and make sure that the
> drivers on the PCB are tri-state or open collector.  That way for
> minimal cost those of us who want to play with fast CPU interfaces
> can.  You don't even have to stuff these extras - we who can design
> such a thing can probably solder.

Agreed. One large connector (96pin VG or the like) with all
important signals on it should be enough to add high speed
/high bandwith extensions.
But this can't be a replacement for ISA.

Andy


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  7 06:33:19 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 12:25:25 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  ease of implementation, optional features, etc.
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X-Status: 


> To all that are worried about the analog side of Ethernet, it's really
> not a problem - You just follow the App note like the man says.  Most
> controllers provide an AUI (15 pin style) port.  It is relatively trivial
> to add on-board Twisted-pair or Thinnet connections.  Some controllers like the
> Nat Semi AT?LANTIC provide the twisted pair xcvr in the chip so you get
> twisted-pair and AUI.  Coax is extra.  Also most PC ethernet controllers
> are reasonable simple to hook to a 3051 if you are willing to ignore having
> all the regisers in exactly the place you would expect them.

I don't mind where the registers are as long I can access them :-)

> As for whoever said the solution could be under $30 on the motherboard
> - NOT!  most reasonable chips are $20-$30 in 1000s quantity - how are
> we going to get the whole shot in $30?

Sorry, I've said that bullshit. Of course, you're right. It will be
more expensive, but we have still the option to let the sockets empty.

> I will volunteer to design the ethernet I/F, although it will be
> tough to coordinate from CA.  I would propose a AUI/coax system 
> with an optional twisted pair interface unless the ethernet of choice 
> has twisted pair on-board.  I like the nat semi AT/LANTIC since it is
> based on the venerable 8390 and has twited pair already.

For me even coax-only would be ok, but AUI doesn't cost much more,
primarily the 15pin sub-D connector.

Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From tor@tss.no  Ukn Jul  7 06:52:08 1993
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From: tor@tss.no (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 12:45:01 +0200
In-Reply-To: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> "Re: My updated wishlist" (Jul 7, 12:05pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: My updated wishlist
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On Jul 7, 12:05pm, Andreas Busse wrote:
[...]
>> * Keyboard controller on board, for IBM style keyboards (could it handle
>>  PS/2 style keyboards?)
>
>I don't see any reason why we should support PS/2 style keyboards.

Many non-PC vendors have started to use PS/2 compatible keyboards for
different purposes, as an example I could take the very ergonomic keyboard
of a Tandberg X-terminal and use it instead of the bad keyboard supplied with 
a 700RX HP X-terminal.

BUT PS/2 vs AT is not a problem anyway, as someone has already confirmed
that the only difference is the connector.  Just to replace or use an adapter.


Tor
(tor@tss.no, on vacation mid-July to mid-August)


 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  7 10:55:28 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307071450.AA11953@fncrdg.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: My updated wishlist
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 07:50:39 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307070115.AA06457@unas.tss.no> from "Tor Arntsen" at Jul 7, 93 03:15:30 am
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For one, I can't afford this new board and 32+ megs of ram...

	Keith


 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  7 12:36:10 1993
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From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: IDE, floppies, serial & stuff
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> From: af4@ukc.ac.uk
 
> We appear to be homing in on the idea of implementing an ISA bus, albeit
> with the tricky bits chopped off. If we go along with this, might I suggest
> we use one of those cheapo IDE multi-I/O cards for the floppy controller,
> IDE hard disk controller, parallel port and additional serial ports?
  . . .
> Andy.

I'd really like a system that needed no ISA cards to work.  Including
floppy and two serial ports.  The cost of the ISA card connector shouldn't
be neglected in comparing multi i/o cards to m/board implementations of
a "super i/o" chip.

We may find price parity between m/board and ISA versions of a multi i/o
capability (FDC/2Ser/1EnhancedParallel/IDE).  Most of the connectors can
be (as they are on a multi i/o card) cheap 0.1" headers.  No IRQ/Address
jumpers to set (screw) up.  No ISA bus speeds to add wait states on each
i/o access.  No need to handle multiple IRQ's from a single card in the
SubISA implementation (this is not likely significant).

I actually don't care about IDE as much as serials and FDC.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  7 13:32:06 1993
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Date: 07 Jul 93 13:29:15 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: on the motherboard?
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Any single item will be cheaper to implement on the motherboard.  It will not
be cheaper to implement *everything* on the motherboard, however.  Ethernet
is cheap and simple to implement - at least it was back in '87, when I last
did so.  I can't expect that it is harder now.

For me, being simple to do is not a reason to put it on the motherboard.  The
data rates are modest, and it's not universally wanted, so I say leave it
off.

My budget for the whole computer is about $1600.  I break that down as
follows:

box        $100  (PC box, w power supply)
monitor     500  (decent monitor)
RAM         240  (8 MB)
disk        200  (170 MB disk)
kb, mouse   100  
PCB         100
CPUs        120  (20 mhz 3051 & 3041)
video       120
pals         60
skts, etc.   60  (sockets, leds, connectors, crystals, 
                  diodes, caps, resistors, etc.) 
          -----
          $1600

That leaves me $0 for all the other features on the board.  I want a boot
rom, and SCSI, and serial ports.  Something has to give.  I hope to save some
here and there over these estimates, but I can't afford much of a wish list.

If you have $3000 to spend, then your list can be longer, but in that case,
it doesn't matter so much if it saves you $25 to put a feature on the
motherboard, anyway.

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  7 17:20:32 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Design choice/vote PRELIMINARY
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 17:17:28 -0500 (EDT)
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I think we need some direction/organization.

I made this list of choices for motherboard design including prices, advantages,
disadvantages, etc.

Once I collect as much informations as possible I plan to put the below list
up for a vote.  So if someone wants X simm slots, or 24 bit color they will 
know how much it will cost etc.  It's alot easier to argue about features
with prices then without.

Please email  corrections, additions, clarifications etc.

My goal if for the costs to reflect board real estate, and all suport chips.
My goal for advantages/disadvantages is to list things like hardware/software
design time, flexibility, usefulness, etc,

I've included some 486 based solutions soley as reference points.

Hopefully once below is filled out we can take a guess at the price +/- 25%

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote


486-size motherboard X layers XxX inches.		$XXX

CPU:   Mips 3081 					

Mips 3081 40 Mhz 8k I-cache 16 k d-cache + fpu		$300 
Good clean 32 bit risc design, cheap, and integrated from IDT.  Pin compatible 
with cheaper (less cache, no fpu, slower) mips chips.  Faster then 486 for 
INT performance and much faster at FP performance.

80486-66 DX2						$510
Few registers, cisc, 4k I-cache 4k d-cache, terrible fp.

IDT 3730  Peripheral controller				$XXX

Drives ram, parity, 2 dma channels, eproms roms etc.  Greatly simplifies 
design, could help with graphics, another reason to use the above mips 3000.

Sim slots:  How much do you want to pay?  How much do you have room for?

4 simm slots $XXX
8 simm slots $XXX
12 simm slots $XXX
16 simm slots $XXX
20 simm slots $XXX
32 simm slots $XXX 

Conventional 4 MBx 9 simms???				(yes/no)
Nice for those with ram already.  Although other simms allow 4x density

256k secondary cache?					$XXX
Sounds like a good idea especially for the mega-ram people.  Probably could 
make a significant difference, even 12.5 Mhz decstations have 128k caches.

Isa supports						$XXX
Allows access to a multitude of cheap pc cards except for use of the MASTER 
signal.  A good choice not for it's technical merit but becuase of whats
available for it.  (Note most high bandwidth items will be on board).
I like this if only for a IDE+floppy+2 serial+parallel for $20

ISA slots:  How much do you want to pay?  How much do we have room for?
2 ISA  slots?						$XXX
3 ISA  slots?						$XXX
4 ISA  slots?						$XXX
5 ISA  slots?						$XXX

Custom bus?						$XXX	
Cheaper connectors, higher speed, better design. But can only use 
boards we design and build.


Video:  (all benefit the high bandwidth on the motherboard)

Dumb frame buffer + 1 MB of vram 		$XXX
2 Mb 1280x1024x8 1024x768x16 possible?		$XXX

All video slows down the main cpu, software support is easy, minimal cost
solution.  Probably worst performance of these choices, but should be ok.

SMT S3 928 + 1 MB vram + dumb frame buffer?	$XXX
2 Mb 1280x1024x8 1024x768x16 possible?		$XXX

Can base work on the S3 X11 server, should be fast, kinda of a midpoint
between dumb frame buffers and a full cpu for graphics.  Very popular
in HIGH end pc video boards.  

A 3041 + 1 MB vram + Ram for 3041 +  dumb frame buffer?		$XXX
2 Mb 1280x1024x8 1024x768x16 possible?				$XXX

Leaves the main cpu free from running Xserver. More difficult to support in 
software but gcc+mips compatible X-server helps.  Performance should be very 
good.  Probably need at least 2-4 MB for the 3041 to run an xserver.    Better 
use of on-chip cache, less context switches, etc.  Kinda of a xterminal 
on the motherboard hooked up via dma ;-)  

VESA 2 MB S3 801 board					$150-$200
Just a reference point from the dos world. For a fast 2 MB card.


Ethernet:  Max bandwidth 1.25 MB/sec (bandwidth alone doesn't justify on board).

On board 16 bit ethernet?				$XXX
Waldorf want's one.  Cheaper on motherboard.  Probably a good investment.

ISA Western Digital 8003 card?				$120
8 bit card (slow) price from the mailing list.  Makes motherboard cheaper. 
Makes motherboard+ethernet more expensive.  Drivers available for linux.


Disk interfaces:

On the motherboard SCSI 5 MB/sec			$XXX
Standard, flexible, cheap on motherboard. 

On the motherboard Fast SCSI 10 MB/sec			$XXX
More expensive, faster, different drives, still hook up cdroms?

On the motherboard Fast/wide 20 MB/sec			$XXX
More expensive, faster, needs different Drives, cdrom?

IDE on the motherboard.					$XXX
Great for those with IDE disks already

Floppy on motherboard					$XXX
Great for boot floppies, or those without net connections/tape backups.

ISA SCSI Future Domain 1680 (16-bit)			$165
Can't use the ISA master signal, slower, expensive


Small stuff:  
2 Serial ports on board (useful for everyone/debugging)		$XX
Parallel port (Status lights? printers?)			$XX
2 serial, parallel, floppy+ide on board 			$XX
2 serial, parallel, floppy+ide on ISA				$20
Audio IN/OUT (to what spec?)					$XX

Lights (cpu busy? Heartbeat? disk activity? net activity?)	$XX
Real time clock (not needed if on net.)				$XX
Keyboard controller 						$XX



 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  7 17:33:25 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307072128.AA13814@fncrdg.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Design choice/vote PRELIMINARY
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 14:28:00 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307072118.AA24846@gossip.pyramid.com> from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 7, 93 05:17:28 pm
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> Sim slots:  How much do you want to pay?  How much do you have room for?
> 
> 4 simm slots $XXX
I take it this means 1 bank?

> 8 simm slots $XXX
> 12 simm slots $XXX
> 16 simm slots $XXX
> 20 simm slots $XXX
> 32 simm slots $XXX 
> 
> Conventional 4 MBx 9 simms???				(yes/no)
Does this assume we'll accept 1MBx9, I hope?

> Nice for those with ram already.  Although other simms allow 4x density
> 
ISA:
These had better be "16-bit" slots...
 
> Small stuff:  
> 2 Serial ports on board (useful for everyone/debugging)		$XX
If these aren't available, where's the mouse to be hooked up?

	Keith


 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  7 18:08:04 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307072203.AA13881@fncrdg.fnal.gov>
Subject: re: wishlist
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:03:49 -0800 (PDT)
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[attributions lost, stuff deleted]
> > * Bus: I don't care actually, with the above I don't need much more.  
> >   The only thing I could think of would be a floppy interface, to boot my 
> >   root/boot floppy when I screwed up something.
Add to this: file transfer via SneakerNet, and use of those cheap floppy-
controller tape drives.  I have never seen a SCSI tape drive that was on
the order of $300 with a 120 meg pre-compression capacity, and sometimes
sneakernet or mailing floppies is the Right Way to move data (moving an
SLS distribution from the office to home, without fone bill, for example...).

> Someone mentioned that we could use a $15 ISA multi-I/O card with
> integrated floppy controller. I can't imagine that we could make it cheaper.
> One point more for ISA.
> Andy

	Keith




 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  7 18:15:45 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Design choice/vote PRELIMINARY
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 18:13:49 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307072128.AA13814@fncrdg.fnal.gov> from "Keith Rohrer" at Jul 7, 93 02:28:00 pm
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> > Sim slots:  How much do you want to pay?  How much do you have room for?
> > 
> > 4 simm slots $XXX
> I take it this means 1 bank?
Well I guess so... why is it important?

> Does this assume we'll accept 1MBx9, I hope?

Hmm I guess but it seems a waste, we will probably end up with 8 simm
slots and putting only 8 MB in a unix machine with a video card
and faster then a 486 is strange.  Keep in mind risc code takes up 40% more
ram then cisc.  So a mips+8 mb = 486 with 6 MB which is very marginal
for running X11.

> > Nice for those with ram already.  Although other simms allow 4x density
> > 
> ISA:
> These had better be "16-bit" slots...

Hadn't really thought about it.

> If these aren't available, where's the mouse to be hooked up?
And ISA serial card.


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  7 18:33:45 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307072227.AA13956@fncrdg.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Design choice/vote PRELIMINARY
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:27:32 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307072214.AA29354@gossip.pyramid.com> from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 7, 93 06:13:49 pm
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> > > Sim slots:  How much do you want to pay?  How much do you have room for?
> > > 
> > > 4 simm slots $XXX
> > I take it this means 1 bank?
> Well I guess so... why is it important?
> 
> > Does this assume we'll accept 1MBx9, I hope?
> 
> Hmm I guess but it seems a waste, we will probably end up with 8 simm
> slots and putting only 8 MB in a unix machine with a video card
> and faster then a 486 is strange.  Keep in mind risc code takes up 40% more
> ram then cisc.  So a mips+8 mb = 486 with 6 MB which is very marginal
> for running X11.
Some of us don't have the money to spend on 4x4MB of RAM, or we'd've done it
already!  I certainly don't have enough to buy this board, AND pay another
$500 (best price I've found so far: $552 + shipping...) for RAM.  Sorry,
it's either migrate the memory I've got, or stay with my PC.

> > > Nice for those with ram already.  Although other simms allow 4x density
> > > 
> > ISA:
> > These had better be "16-bit" slots...
> Hadn't really thought about it.
Actually, nevermind, if people were thinking 8-bit slots they'd've been
suggesting "xt-bus"...

> > If these aren't available, where's the mouse to be hooked up?
> And ISA serial card.
Assuming we don't vote down both ISA and the onboard serial ports...
 
	Keith



 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  7 20:15:06 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Signatures
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 20:12:35 -0500 (EDT)
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I've had trouble repling to two people because they posted to the list
without a signature and the only thing that makes it to the list
is there name.

I just did the same, with the VOTE/list, try to avoid it at least until
the mailer is reconfigured to add the senders address to the bounced
mail.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  8 01:27:53 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307080402.AA14080@rei.com>
Subject: wishlist
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 23:02:09 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307072222.AA12694@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 7, 93 05:22:28 pm
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> Add to this: file transfer via SneakerNet, and use of those cheap floppy-
> controller tape drives.  I have never seen a SCSI tape drive that was on
> the order of $300 with a 120 meg pre-compression capacity, and sometimes
> sneakernet or mailing floppies is the Right Way to move data (moving an
> SLS distribution from the office to home, without fone bill, for example...).
> 
I didn't imagine that these would ever be the only computer in the
room, at least not in the next couple of years.  A fast serial port
and a cable is much simpler to get working than a foreign floppy file
system exchange.

Is there a free device driver for QIC-117 (floppy interface) tape
drives that works reliably yet?  I'd bet that even when there is it
won't be very portable.

I have a Wangtek QIC-525 SCSI tape drive that I bought for US$250,
but that was very lucky.

Am I wrong about the riscy board NOT being the only computer in the
room, even in a corner of a bedroom?

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us  Ukn Jul  8 01:54:16 1993
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 22:24 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: misc stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

other stuff I was thinking about:

- we should reserve an input or two for "manufacturing" jumpers
  so that s/w can run some internal diagnostics and board test stuff

- save a few bits to read the SIMM ID bits, so that s/w can know
  what size DRAM is installed in each bank and 'do the right thing'

- a name for the %^*%(* thing, how about 'Foghorn' (after Foghorn
  Leghorn of course)  If that is too Americentric, feel free to suggest
  something else.  Waldorf Salad? LOAM (Linux on a MIPS)?

- for serial/parallel ports on board, how about a 16C552 - two 
  16550 uarts and a IBM compatible centronics parallel port with 8 bit
  cpu interface.  Made by TI and others.  Also don't forget those
  pesky line interface chips.

- we should come up with a power budget to make sure we won't be 
  overtaxing a standard PC power supply.

- does someone have a heat chamber to test this thing at elevated 
  temperature for a while? It may be GPL h/w, but it doesn't have to
  be flaky...

- think about cooling options for the CPU.  The 33MHz 79R3051E in the MJ
  package runs pretty hot - I'm sure the 40MHz 3081E will really cook,
  especially with more cache on chip.  I would plan on a heat sink and/or fan.
  Don't burn your hands :-)

- for debug, put some headers around the CPU for each pin.  If you only 
  run the local bus to the 3730 it will be hard to hook a logic analyzer to
  either the 3730 or the 3081 without using expensive test clips.

- we should budget for appropriate filters and such for EMI.  If waldorf
  wants to sell this commercially it will have to pass VDE and/or FCC
  (or CISPR) and/or other agency approvals.  Does Waldorf have a 
  site where they can scan the unit? Or are they going to do their own
  layout and only test their version?

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but if this is to become a
real product we should pay some attention to these real-world issues
up-front.

 
From adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us  Ukn Jul  8 01:54:23 1993
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 21:46 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Ethernet stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

One thought occured to me about Ethernet this evening - we will need
to get a block of Ethernet hardware IDs.  These will have to be
different for every board, and stored in a PLD or EPROM or EEPROM.
Someone will have to make sure that there are no conflicts in the
addressing scheme.  Anybody ever gotten a block of h/w IDs for
ethernet? Got any to spare?

Depending on how bad the ISA bus interface stuff gets, it might be
worth the trouble to just "oem" an ISA card. :-()

I haven't costed the following out, and it occurs in no particular
order, but here goes: a simple on-board 16-bit ethernet would have the
following major items (8-bit might save some glue logic and a SRAM,
but it would not be a major cost savings, so why no throw it in...)

- Controller chip
- ENDEC (might be in the same pack as #1)
- DB-15 connector
- 2 8kx8 or 32kx8 SRAM for packet buffering (some controllers use
 DRAM, but most use SRAM)
- 20 MHz oscillator or crystal (maybe)
- PALs (2 or 3) for address decode & buffer arbitration
- LEDs (fuer die blinkenlights :-)
- bus buffers and latches
- pulse xformer for isolation
- serial EEPROM for h/w ethernet ID

to add BNC you add to this:
- coax xcvr chip
- DC_DC converter module
- another pulse xformer or one a whole lotta jumpers
- BNC connector


 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  8 02:03:10 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307080603.AA20806@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: wishlist
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 1:03:08 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307080402.AA14080@rei.com>; from "6692" at Jul 7, 93 11:02 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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> Am I wrong about the riscy board NOT being the only computer in the
> room, even in a corner of a bedroom?
> 
Well I'd like it to be the only one.  The fact is I only want to replace my
motherboard.  Not put together a whole new system.  That would be WAY to
expensive.  So I guess yes it will be the only one in the room.  At least
after inital development.


--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  8 03:42:36 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307080740.AA24818@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: misc stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 0:40:51 PDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oDoTA-00039LC@zarniwoop.chi.il.us>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 7, 93 10:24 pm
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> - we should reserve an input or two for "manufacturing" jumpers
>   so that s/w can run some internal diagnostics and board test stuff

I was planning to see what was left of the I/O pins on the 3730 for
just the reason.  Maybe if we run out, we need a spare PAL to implement
these plus some LEDs.

> - save a few bits to read the SIMM ID bits, so that s/w can know
>   what size DRAM is installed in each bank and 'do the right thing'

You don't need that.  Its possible to figure it out in S/W.

> - a name for the %^*%(* thing, how about 'Foghorn' (after Foghorn
>   Leghorn of course)  If that is too Americentric, feel free to suggest
>   something else.  Waldorf Salad? LOAM (Linux on a MIPS)?

Good plan, but don't quit your day job.

> - for serial/parallel ports on board, how about a 16C552 - two 
>   16550 uarts and a IBM compatible centronics parallel port with 8 bit
>   cpu interface.  Made by TI and others.  Also don't forget those
>   pesky line interface chips.

I still think that parallel should go on the ISA bus.  I know its cheap,
but this thing is getting too expensive.  As for RS-232 drivers,
Motorola 145406, has 3 transmitters and 3 receivers.  You need one
per port.

> - does someone have a heat chamber to test this thing at elevated 
>   temperature for a while? It may be GPL h/w, but it doesn't have to
>   be flaky...

My kitchen at about 3pm gets to about 110F!!  :-)  (The sun gets
it just the wrong way.)

> - think about cooling options for the CPU.  The 33MHz 79R3051E in the MJ
>   package runs pretty hot - I'm sure the 40MHz 3081E will really cook,
>   especially with more cache on chip.  I would plan on a heat sink and/or fan.
>   Don't burn your hands :-)

My NCD-19r (with has a LSI r3k) runs warm at 33MHz; cooler than my 486.
There are temperature specs in the 3081 data sheets.  We just need to
check it, as you say.

> - for debug, put some headers around the CPU for each pin.  If you only 
>   run the local bus to the 3730 it will be hard to hook a logic analyzer to
>   either the 3730 or the 3081 without using expensive test clips.

The logic analysers that I have access to come with those clips.  In any
case, Waldorf want a socket next to the CPU, so this would do.

> - we should budget for appropriate filters and such for EMI.  If waldorf
>   wants to sell this commercially it will have to pass VDE and/or FCC
>   (or CISPR) and/or other agency approvals.  Does Waldorf have a 
>   site where they can scan the unit? Or are they going to do their own
>   layout and only test their version?

Hell, I forgot about FCC.  Isn't that a requirement before any sales in
the US?  I've only done designs for the Australian market which doesn't
need FCC (or anything).  Has someone gone though this before?

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 03:54:34 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 09:42:46 +0200
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	id AA14336; Thu, 8 Jul 93 09:42:46 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  Ethernet stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> One thought occured to me about Ethernet this evening - we will need
> to get a block of Ethernet hardware IDs.  These will have to be
> different for every board, and stored in a PLD or EPROM or EEPROM.
> Someone will have to make sure that there are no conflicts in the
> addressing scheme.  Anybody ever gotten a block of h/w IDs for
> ethernet? Got any to spare?

No, unfortunally we haven't some spare adresses. Neil, Pyramid
build workstations and the like, can you find out how to get
adresses ?

> Depending on how bad the ISA bus interface stuff gets, it might be
> worth the trouble to just "oem" an ISA card. :-()

Does "oem" mean some sort of reverse engineering or simply to buy them ?

> I haven't costed the following out, and it occurs in no particular
> order, but here goes: a simple on-board 16-bit ethernet would have the
> following major items (8-bit might save some glue logic and a SRAM,
> but it would not be a major cost savings, so why no throw it in...)

I like to see ethernet on board. People can leave the sockets empty
if want.

> - Controller chip
> - ENDEC (might be in the same pack as #1)
> - DB-15 connector
> - 2 8kx8 or 32kx8 SRAM for packet buffering (some controllers use
>  DRAM, but most use SRAM)
> - 20 MHz oscillator or crystal (maybe)

No, can be derived from the master clock (40 MHz)

> - PALs (2 or 3) for address decode & buffer arbitration
> - LEDs (fuer die blinkenlights :-)

YEAH !

> - bus buffers and latches
> - pulse xformer for isolation
> - serial EEPROM for h/w ethernet ID
> to add BNC you add to this:
> - coax xcvr chip
> - DC_DC converter module

Please correct me if I'm wrong: What other supplies do
we need than +5, -12 and +12 ? All these come out of
a standard PC power supply.

> - another pulse xformer or one a whole lotta jumpers
> - BNC connector


Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 03:54:37 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 09:34:42 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  misc stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi everyone !

> - we should reserve an input or two for "manufacturing" jumpers
>   so that s/w can run some internal diagnostics and board test stuff

Good idea. That's what usually do to.

> - save a few bits to read the SIMM ID bits, so that s/w can know
>   what size DRAM is installed in each bank and 'do the right thing'

Good idea too. We have to find out how this could work.

> - a name for the %^*%(* thing, how about 'Foghorn' (after Foghorn
>   Leghorn of course)  If that is too Americentric, feel free to suggest
>   something else.  Waldorf Salad? LOAM (Linux on a MIPS)?

Hey, "Waldorf Salad" tastes good ! What's about "Salad box" instead
of "Pizza box" ? :-) I know, salad in a box is quite unusual, but
the whole thing is quite unusual, right ?
 
> - for serial/parallel ports on board, how about a 16C552 - two 
>   16550 uarts and a IBM compatible centronics parallel port with 8 bit
>   cpu interface.  Made by TI and others.  Also don't forget those
>   pesky line interface chips.

I am still thinking about the SMC FDC37C65x fdc/uart/parallel chip.
I'll try to find out the price today.

> - we should come up with a power budget to make sure we won't be 
>   overtaxing a standard PC power supply.

I doubt that the power consumption will be out of range as long
as we use high integrated cmos stuff.

> - does someone have a heat chamber to test this thing at elevated 
>   temperature for a while? It may be GPL h/w, but it doesn't have to
>   be flaky...

Well, we put the boards in our testrack among several other
things. There's enough heat...

> - think about cooling options for the CPU.  The 33MHz 79R3051E in the MJ
>   package runs pretty hot - I'm sure the 40MHz 3081E will really cook,
>   especially with more cache on chip.  I would plan on a heat sink and/or fan.
>   Don't burn your hands :-)

Heat sink is ok. If people feel the cpu is still too hot, they
can buy an icecap.

> - for debug, put some headers around the CPU for each pin.  If you only 
>   run the local bus to the 3730 it will be hard to hook a logic analyzer to
>  either the 3730 or the 3081 without using expensive test clips.

We might have some sort of "local bus" which means just a large
connector near the cpu with all important signals connected to it.
That should be sufficient.

> - we should budget for appropriate filters and such for EMI.  If waldorf
>   wants to sell this commercially it will have to pass VDE and/or FCC
>   (or CISPR) and/or other agency approvals.  Does Waldorf have a 
>   site where they can scan the unit? Or are they going to do their own
>   layout and only test their version?

Hmmm. Although (or because ?) our favourite product (a small synth expander)
is called MicroWave we have some experience with EMI, filters and so
on. I'll talk to our CAD guy. And, yes, we have a site where we
can scan the unit. 

> I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but if this is to become a
> real product we should pay some attention to these real-world issues
> up-front.

Agreed !

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 03:54:39 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 09:45:04 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: wishlist
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
X-Status: 


> > Am I wrong about the riscy board NOT being the only computer in the
> > room, even in a corner of a bedroom?
> > 
> Well I'd like it to be the only one.  The fact is I only want to replace my
> motherboard.  Not put together a whole new system.  That would be WAY to
> expensive.  So I guess yes it will be the only one in the room.  At least
> after inital development.

In fact, the board should have the size and mounting wholes exactly
like a standard iX86 motherboard. That means that the ISA slots are
also at standard locations.

Andy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From drew@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 04:24:34 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: misc stuff 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1993 00:40:51 PDT."
             <9307080740.AA24818@sword.eng.pyramid.com> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 02:22:51 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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    > - we should budget for appropriate filters and such for EMI.  If waldorf
    >   wants to sell this commercially it will have to pass VDE and/or FCC
    >   (or CISPR) and/or other agency approvals.  Does Waldorf have a 
    >   site where they can scan the unit? Or are they going to do their own
    >   layout and only test their version?
    
    Hell, I forgot about FCC.  Isn't that a requirement before any sales in
    the US?  I've only done designs for the Australian market which doesn't
    need FCC (or anything).  Has someone gone though this before?

I've bought PC boards, motherboards, etc, and none of them (except 
the modems, presumably because you plug them into phone lines) came with
FCC ID's or any other sort of FCC documentation.

So, I'm under the impression that individual components (ie, the 
motherboard) don't fall under the FCC's jurisdiction, just completed
systems.
    

 
From drew@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 05:01:15 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1993 09:42:46 +0200."
             <9307080742.AA14336@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 02:59:15 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
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    > Depending on how bad the ISA bus interface stuff gets, it might be
    > worth the trouble to just "oem" an ISA card. :-()
    
    Does "oem" mean some sort of reverse engineering or simply to buy them ?

Original Equipment Manufacturer - ie : do what everyone else did, 
and clone National Semi 8390 eval boards... 
    
    > I haven't costed the following out, and it occurs in no particular
    > order, but here goes: a simple on-board 16-bit ethernet would have the
    > following major items (8-bit might save some glue logic and a SRAM,
    > but it would not be a major cost savings, so why no throw it in...)

Getting rid of the SRAM gets messy - the 8390 wants to be a 
busmaster (address space is 64K, although a 32 bit address with static
upper 16 bits can be generated if the two DMA channels are combined 
together), and uses it's busmastering capabilities to handle off-chip
ring buffers.  The SRAM lets the NS sample implementation be a bus
master like it wants, means we don't have to figure out how to get 
it busmastering on our 32 bit bus (the NS 8390 is only 16 bits wide),
and means we don't need to gurantee a 9us DMA latency...
    
    I like to see ethernet on board. People can leave the sockets empty
    if want.

Agreed.  However, how are you going to socket pulse transformers, the 
DC->DC convertor, etc?  IMHO, this is a good argument for propriety
slots on the low speed bus! 

	A large number of users want SCSI, Ethernet.
	
	A few users don't want SCSI, Ethernet, etc.

Leaving empty sockets on some boards will reduce the cost for these
people.  However, sockets still cost money, as does the realestate
lost to the sockets, so it's an imperfect solution.  

	A few users want more Ethernets, more serial ports, etc.

With the current implementation of ethernet on the mainboard, 
serial ports on the mainboard, etc. we have to tell people 
"want more, buy an ISA card" which will probably be more expensive
than what we can do (List price on a dumb BOCA multiport serial
card (16550) is about $250, even at half that it's outrageous).

Having the SCSI, ethernet, serial ports, etc. on daughter cards 
on the propriety bus would keep everybody happy and solve all these
problems.

Also : 

- Bigger circuits (ie, ethernet) eat space on cheaper 2-layer
	boards rather than the expensive mainboard.

- If we use the left rear of the motherboard (adjacent to the ISA
	slots) for the bus, everything is next to a hole in the 
	case and our connector mounting problems disappear.

- Since nobody with one of these cards won't be using the feature,
	we can surface mount things, eliminating the cost of 
	sockets. 
    
    > - 2 8kx8 or 32kx8 SRAM for packet buffering (some controllers use
    >  DRAM, but most use SRAM)

You don't have to refresh DRAM, and for an 8K chip the price difference
won't be that noticeable.

    > - DC_DC converter module
    
    Please correct me if I'm wrong: What other supplies do
    we need than +5, -12 and +12 ? All these come out of
    a standard PC power supply.

15V.

--------


 
From drew@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 05:07:48 1993
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Message-Id: <199307080906.AA28443@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: MIPS R4200 / IDT3081 question
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 03:06:32 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
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What would having sockets for the 3081 and 4200 take 
(provided that people aren't stupid enough to plug  
chips in both sockets at the same time)?

This would give us a working board *soon* so that Linux 
can get ported and stable, and would allow an upgrade 
path to the 4200 when MIPS finally ships it a year after
the announced date :-)


 
From hasse@inf.ethz.ch  Ukn Jul  8 05:29:37 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: hasse@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: MIPS R4200 / IDT3081 question 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 93 03:06:32 MDT."
             <199307080906.AA28443@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 93 11:25:56 +0200
From: hasse@inf.ethz.ch
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Until now I just listen what others said. Now Drew Eckhardt
suggested two sockets for CPUs. I like this idea but in a slightly
different way. Since I'm not an ee-guy I don't know about technical
issues. But what about a two processor system and who ever likes to
have more cpu-power plugs in another cpu. I like the responsiveness
(is this an english word) of multi-processor machines. Everything
runs much smoother. I'm not 100% aware of the impacts to Linux.
I know the best solution will be hard (multi-threaded kernel).
BTW, this will give us in case of a dump frame buffer (didn't we
have the idea of a second cpu for the video before) the scalability
depending on the money one wants to spend for the whole system.

  CH

 
From drew@alta.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 05:56:31 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: hasse@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: MIPS R4200 / IDT3081 question 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1993 11:25:56 +0200."
             <9307080926.AA10491@neptune> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 03:49:40 +0100
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@alta.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--------

    Until now I just listen what others said. Now Drew Eckhardt
    suggested two sockets for CPUs. I like this idea but in a slightly
    different way. Since I'm not an ee-guy I don't know about technical
    issues. But what about a two processor system and who ever likes to
    have more cpu-power plugs in another cpu. I like the responsiveness
    (is this an english word) of multi-processor machines. Everything
    runs much smoother. 

Memory bandwidth is the bottleneck on everything but super computers.  
Throw two processors at a problem in a shared memory multi-processor
design and not enough cache (remember, we aren't using a second level
cache because of cost reasons) things won't get any faster.

    I'm not 100% aware of the impacts to Linux.
    I know the best solution will be hard (multi-threaded kernel).

You could *probably* get away with mutexes in appropriate parts 
of the kernel, although it would be ugly.

    BTW, this will give us in case of a dump frame buffer (didn't we
    have the idea of a second cpu for the video before) the scalability
    depending on the money one wants to spend for the whole system.

IMHO, the added design complexity in both hardware and software probably 
isn't worth it, since our goal is "reasonable performance at a reasonable 
cost".

If you aren't satisfied with Linux's response : 

Basically, operating systems just sit arround and allocate 
resources, making tradeoffs between things like fairness, 
performance, and response time.

In Linux, we trade off fairness for interactive response time 
when we put processes at the head of the run queue when they're
woken up rather than the tail.  We trade performance for fairness
when we reserve the last buffer cache requests for reads rather
than writes.  We trade performance (ie, minimal scheduler overhead)
for interactive response.

If you feel that Linux isn't responsive enough, change the priorities
(ie, modify the scheduler, buffer cache code, whatever) to suit your
needs.

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 06:13:24 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 11:30:26 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: what parts ?
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Dear Mipsers,

I think it's time to make a list of parts we want to use so
that Neil and me (and perhaps others too, if they like)
can try to figure out costs.

I'll make a list of possible chips we may use.
Please add your wishes and/or suggestions here
so that we all have an overview.

Please leave that list complete, just add to it.
Sometimes it's very painful to scan thru 350 mails to see the history...

* SCSI controller
	53c90,53cf90

* Ethernet controller
	??

* Ethernet glue
	??

* Video Timing/RAMDAC:
	TI 34076

* VRAM
	??

* serial/parallel:
	16550

* floppy controller
	SMC FDC37C651 (has two 16450 and parallel built in)

* CPU
	3081E/40

* RAM
	4Mx9, 512Kx36, 2Mx36

* I/O Controller
	IDT 3730

* RTClock
        ??

* Keyboard controller
	??

* GLUE (if there's something you don't where to put, put it here)
	??

* Connectors
	9pin sub-D, 15pin sub-D VGA, 25pin sub-D, 5pin DIN (Keyboard),
	BNC, 15pin sub-D (AUI), ISA Conn., Power Supply Conn.,


I'm sure I have forgotten something :-)


Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 06:13:38 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 11:32:10 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  MIPS R4200 / IDT3081 question
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> What would having sockets for the 3081 and 4200 take 
> (provided that people aren't stupid enough to plug  
> chips in both sockets at the same time)?

Good idea, although I don't know if this is possible.
I am still waiting for an official statement from IDT.
I expect it today, perhaps tomorrow.

Andy

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Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
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From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 06:16:21 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 11:48:38 +0200
Message-Id: <9307080948.AA14756@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA14756; Thu, 8 Jul 93 11:48:38 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
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>    Does "oem" mean some sort of reverse engineering or simply to buy them ?

> Original Equipment Manufacturer - ie : do what everyone else did, 
> and clone National Semi 8390 eval boards... 

I see. Finally this *is* reverse engineering, but I don't mind...

>    I like to see ethernet on board. People can leave the sockets empty
>    if want.

> Agreed.  However, how are you going to socket pulse transformers, the 
> DC->DC convertor, etc?  IMHO, this is a good argument for propriety
> slots on the low speed bus! 

Ok, putting transformer in sockets is not a good idea, but I think
the most expensive parts are the controller chips. Am I right ?

> Leaving empty sockets on some boards will reduce the cost for these
> people.  However, sockets still cost money, as does the realestate
> lost to the sockets, so it's an imperfect solution.  
>
> [...]
>
> Having the SCSI, ethernet, serial ports, etc. on daughter cards 
> on the propriety bus would keep everybody happy and solve all these
> problems.

But daughterboards cost money too, probably more than sockets.
And we still need connectors then.

> Also : 
> 
> - Bigger circuits (ie, ethernet) eat space on cheaper 2-layer
> 	boards rather than the expensive mainboard.

We have to figure that out.

> - If we use the left rear of the motherboard (adjacent to the ISA
> 	slots) for the bus, everything is next to a hole in the 
>	case and our connector mounting problems disappear.

This is a good idea anyway.

> You don't have to refresh DRAM, and for an 8K chip the price difference
> won't be that noticeable.

You mean SRAM, right ?
    
>     Please correct me if I'm wrong: What other supplies do
>     we need than +5, -12 and +12 ? All these come out of
>     a standard PC power supply.

> 15V.

Ok. What current ? If it's not that much, there might be
a cheap solution. I'm gonna ask our analogue guys.

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
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From drew@alta.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 06:24:51 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1993 11:48:38 +0200."
             <9307080948.AA14756@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 04:23:02 +0100
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@alta.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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--------

    >    Does "oem" mean some sort of reverse engineering or simply to buy them
    ?
    
    > Original Equipment Manufacturer - ie : do what everyone else did, 
    > and clone National Semi 8390 eval boards... 
    
    I see. Finally this *is* reverse engineering, but I don't mind...

Reverse engineering means taking another design and figuring 
out what goes into it, Nat. Semi GIVES the schematics, PAL
program, etc away...

    > You don't have to refresh DRAM, and for an 8K chip the price difference
    > won't be that noticeable.
    
    You mean SRAM, right ?

Yes - looks like I slipped and hit the 'D' adajent to the 'S'. 
        
    >     Please correct me if I'm wrong: What other supplies do
    >     we need than +5, -12 and +12 ? All these come out of
    >     a standard PC power supply.
    
    > 15V.
    
    Ok. What current ? If it's not that much, there might be
    a cheap solution. I'm gonna ask our analogue guys.

Whatever thinnet requires, I'll look in the Nat. Semi databook
when I get home.
    

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 06:53:11 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 12:25:37 +0200
Message-Id: <9307081025.AA14816@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
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Back to the ethernet stuff:

>     > - DC_DC converter module
>    
>    Please correct me if I'm wrong: What other supplies do
>    we need than +5, -12 and +12 ? All these come out of
>    a standard PC power supply.
>
> 15V.

Sorry, I had a look to some Application Notes. I can't find
any which requires +15 V. They all require -9 V (for BNC) but
that should not be a problem. We can derive it from the -12 supply.

Andy



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From drew@fiver.cs.colorado.edu  Ukn Jul  8 07:12:12 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 93 12:25:37 +0200."
             <9307081025.AA14816@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 93 04:58:12 MDT
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--------

    
    Back to the ethernet stuff:
    
    >     > - DC_DC converter module
    >    
    >    Please correct me if I'm wrong: What other supplies do
    >    we need than +5, -12 and +12 ? All these come out of
    >    a standard PC power supply.
    >
    > 15V.
    
    Sorry, I had a look to some Application Notes. I can't find
    any which requires +15 V. They all require -9 V (for BNC) but
    that should not be a problem. We can derive it from the -12 supply.

Sorry about my faulty memory.  Maybe I should always carry data books
with me :-)


 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 08:34:23 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 13:54:53 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Jobs to allocate
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Dear Mipsers !

There are still some jobs to allocate :-)
If someone is interested to spend some time
into the development of

- SCSI

- Video

- Keyboard Interface

please let us know !!!

Thanks,
Andy

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D-5481 Waldorf
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From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 08:55:06 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 14:35:58 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: SMC Super I/O FDC
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I've got the price for the SMC FDC37C651
(765compatible FDC, 2 uarts, 1 parallel):

1+	:	~ $14
10+	:	~ $12.20
100+	:  below  $11.50

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
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Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
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Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
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From drew@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 09:01:03 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: SMC Super I/O FDC 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1993 14:35:58 +0200."
             <9307081235.AA15123@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 06:59:38 -0600
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--------

    
    I've got the price for the SMC FDC37C651
    (765compatible FDC, 2 uarts, 1 parallel):
    
    1+	:	~ $14
    10+	:	~ $12.20
    100+	:  below  $11.50
    
    Andy

Are these buffered or unbuffered uarts?

 
From rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at  Ukn Jul  8 09:42:52 1993
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From: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (Ralf Messerer)
Message-Id: <9307081339.AA27825@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 15:39:50 +0100 (MES)
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* DC-DC supply

We need an isolation between the interface and the tranceiver.
The NS-databook says that this is an IEEE802.3 requirement.
(Soory I don't have the IEEE802.3 paper)
But I think because of potential differences between different nodes.



* Memory interfacing

I think we can't use the bus mastering method.
The bus will be locked during a havy network load.
If we use the 8390 the DMA Control is not good, because it is very
difficult to implement locking strategies for the internal registers.
So my opinion is to take a dual portet RAM.

-Ralf                   (Ralf Messerer  rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at)


 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 10:09:15 1993
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Date: 08 Jul 93 10:06:15 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
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--- rm@eacpc4.tuwi wrote:
* DC-DC supply

We need an isolation between the interface and the tranceiver.
--- end of quoted material ---
Yes, a dc-dc converter is needed to either power an on-board transceiver
(commonly the -9 v type), or for the off-board transceiver (12 v).  But all
my knowledge is pre 10baseT.  Has anyone done a recent design using 10baseT?

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 10:14:27 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 15:38:44 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: FDC/UART
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For those thinking that 16450's aren't good enough,
I've found something new:

SMC FDC37C665

- 765 compatible FDC, able to r/w 2.88 MB floppys
- Two 16550 UARTS with 16byte send/rec. fifo
- bidirectional parallel port.
- IDE Interface
- comes in a 100pin QFP Package.

Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)

What do you think about ?

Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  8 10:26:58 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307081414.AA16363@rei.com>
Subject: Re: misc stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 09:14:43 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307080821.AA14718@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 8, 93 03:21:52 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
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Neill suggested:
> 
> Good plan, but don't quit your day job.
> 
That's kind of a long name for the thing, but I like the spirit of
it.  Let's see, "DQYDJ"?  Doesn't exactly flow....  Maybe we should
call it "Moonlight" or something like that?

(Actually, the name "riscy" works for me ;-) )

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 10:33:14 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 16:15:26 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: SMC Super I/O FDC
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>    I've got the price for the SMC FDC37C651
>    (765compatible FDC, 2 uarts, 1 parallel):
>    [...]

> Are these buffered or unbuffered uarts?

These are unbuffered uarts. The other chip I've
mentioned in the meantime has *buffered* uarts.

Andy


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 10:53:03 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 16:37:05 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
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> * DC-DC supply
> 
> We need an isolation between the interface and the tranceiver.
> The NS-databook says that this is an IEEE802.3 requirement.
> (Soory I don't have the IEEE802.3 paper)
> But I think because of potential differences between different nodes.

You may have right that IEEE802.3 requires an isolation between
sender and receiver. Nevertheless, I doubt that this true for
most applications. First, a cheap DC-DC converter doesn't really
isolate. Second, we had some trouble in our office due to a
grounding problem which produced a 100 V potential difference
between two machines. If they were *really* isolated, we would
never had noticed that. Instead, our net silently went down
after a few minutes, and the AUI-BNC adapters where hot enough
to make ham&eggs on them. Fortunally, it didn't break them.

Andy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  8 11:12:15 1993
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From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307081509.AA06247@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  Ethernet stuff
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> From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
> > One thought occured to me about Ethernet this evening - we will need
> > to get a block of Ethernet hardware IDs.  These will have to be
> > different for every board, and stored in a PLD or EPROM or EEPROM.
> > Someone will have to make sure that there are no conflicts in the
> > addressing scheme.  Anybody ever gotten a block of h/w IDs for
> > ethernet? Got any to spare?
> 
> No, unfortunally we haven't some spare adresses. Neil, Pyramid
> build workstations and the like, can you find out how to get
> adresses ?

We have a block of Ethernet addresses.  I'll ask the guy who co-ordinated
their acquisition about what it took to get them.  I don't believe it
was hard.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us  Ukn Jul  8 11:17:45 1993
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 08:43 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Andreas Busse's message of Thu, 8 Jul 93 09:42:46 +0200 <9307080742.AA14336@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Subject:  Ethernet stuff
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The DC-DC converter module supplies -9V for the coax xcvr chip.  It 
also provides 2KV isolation per 802.3 10Base2 spec.

 
From adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us  Ukn Jul  8 11:17:53 1993
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 08:49 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Andreas Busse's message of Thu, 8 Jul 93 11:48:38 +0200 <9307080948.AA14756@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Subject: Ethernet stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

the 15V he is talking about is actually spec'd as 12-15V, the current 
required is 500mA.  This supply is usually fused and comes out the AUI
port to power external MAUs.

 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  8 11:30:39 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307081529.AA21908@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: FDC/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 10:29:30 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307081338.AA15221@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 8, 93 3:38 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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> SMC FDC37C665
> 
> - 765 compatible FDC, able to r/w 2.88 MB floppys
> - Two 16550 UARTS with 16byte send/rec. fifo
> - bidirectional parallel port.
> - IDE Interface
> - comes in a 100pin QFP Package.
> 
> Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)
> 
> What do you think about ?
> 
> Andy
> 
I thought the idea was to use a ISA card for the FDC and parallel port.
I'd like to see 16550s on the MB though.  If for anything developent
reasons.  How much is a dual 16550 UART?  If the difference is small use
the SMC FDC37C665. In any case, I'd like IDE available in some for so I
can keep my HD. 

--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  8 11:34:28 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 17:12:00 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: misc stuff
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> >
> > Good plan, but don't quit your day job.
> > 
> That's kind of a long name for the thing, but I like the spirit of
> it.  Let's see, "DQYDJ"?  Doesn't exactly flow....  Maybe we should
> call it "Moonlight" or something like that?
> 
> (Actually, the name "riscy" works for me ;-) )

Yes, "riscy" is ok for me too. And "Salad Box" is perhaps
a bit "misleading" :-)

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com  Ukn Jul  8 11:39:40 1993
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From: kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com (Russell Kent)
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Message-Id: <9307081535.AA02199@titania.pac.sc.ti.com>
Subject: Re: FDC/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 10:35:31 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307081338.AA15221@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 8, 93 3:38 pm
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> For those thinking that 16450's aren't good enough,
> I've found something new:
> 
> SMC FDC37C665
> 
> - 765 compatible FDC, able to r/w 2.88 MB floppys
> - Two 16550 UARTS with 16byte send/rec. fifo
> - bidirectional parallel port.
> - IDE Interface
> - comes in a 100pin QFP Package.
> 
> Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)
> 
> What do you think about ?
> 
> Andy
> Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
> c/o Andreas Busse

I've been pondering the serial/parallel/IDE/FDC problem for a while now.
I had come to the conclusion that if the other SMC part was used, then
a separate 16550 part would almost certainly be needed.  This would not
be so bad though, since we would then have two "low performance" serial
ports (one for mouse, one for dot-matrix printer perhaps?), and two "high
performance" serial ports (one for high speed modem, one spare?).

The ability to use 2.88 Mb floppy drives is interesting but only as a
future capability (presently too little availability of drives and media).

The 16 byte depth of the FIFO (is that per port?) is a *requirement*
for *reliable* high-speed serial communication (well, I suppose that it
might still be reliable with as few as 4 bytes per port, but anyway).
High speed modems are getting fairly common, and null-modem SLIP (at
56 or 115 Kbaud) is not totally unreasonable if, for example, the other
machine hasn't got Ethernet.

What about availability of this part?

Russell Kent         "I'm not a hardware geek, but I play one on TV."
--
Texas Instruments                   rkent@lobby.ti.com   -or-
PO Box 655012  M/S 3624             kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com
Dallas, TX 75265
Voice: (214) 917-2285               FAX: (214) 917-5112

 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  8 12:03:49 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307081600.AA08167@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: FDC/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 11:00:20 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307081535.AA02199@titania.pac.sc.ti.com> from "Russell Kent" at Jul 8, 93 10:35:31 am
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> I've been pondering the serial/parallel/IDE/FDC problem for a while now.
> I had come to the conclusion that if the other SMC part was used, then
> a separate 16550 part would almost certainly be needed.  This would not
> be so bad though, since we would then have two "low performance" serial
> ports (one for mouse, one for dot-matrix printer perhaps?), and two "high
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What is giving everyone the illusion that we've got SERIAL dot-matrix
printers?  I haven't SEEN any serial printers short of lasers, except
for expensive high-speed far-from-the-host band printers.  Unless we
want to spend $60+ on a serial-to-parallel adapter (ah, the days of
Commodore 64!!!), most of us with printers will be getting an ISA card
with a parallel, and presumably 2 slow (or fast) serial ports anyway.
I, for one, will need a parallel port; whether it's on the motherboard, or
whether it's the multi-io card I've already got, I don't care, but it
needs to be factored into either the chips on the board or the number of ISA
slots...

> The ability to use 2.88 Mb floppy drives is interesting but only as a
> future capability (presently too little availability of drives and media).
Until the floppies come down to less than $50-60 per box...
1Mbps capacity would be useful for QIC-117 floppy port tape drives, but
not much else I don't think...

	Keith


 
From jcallen@Think.COM  Ukn Jul  8 12:24:38 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Keith Rohrer's message of Thu, 8 Jul 1993 11:00:20 -0600 (CDT) <9307081600.AA08167@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: FDC/UART
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   From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
   Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 11:00:20 -0600 (CDT)

   What is giving everyone the illusion that we've got SERIAL dot-matrix
   printers?

Maybe the fact that I have one hooked up to my current system at home.

-- Jerry Callen
   jcallen@world.std.com           (preferred)
   jcallen@think.com               (OK, too)
   {uunet,harvard}!think!jcallen   (if you must)

 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  8 13:05:10 1993
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Date: 08 Jul 93 13:01:19 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re: FDC/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

--- You wrote:
Maybe the fact that I have one hooked up to my current system at home.
--- end of quoted material ---
Well, just hook it up to your f*cking ISA bus card, then.

My only printer is a StyleWriter II -- is anyone going to write a driver for
that?!  :-)

Ya know, if I knew what the spooled files look like, I could spool (using the
ToasterBus LocalTalk card) to my Mac, and print that way.

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  8 16:31:29 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307081941.AA18509@rei.com>
Subject: Re: IDE/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 14:41:58 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To:     
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
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> > SMC FDC37C665
> > 
> > - 765 compatible FDC, able to r/w 2.88 MB floppys
> > - Two 16550 UARTS with 16byte send/rec. fifo
> > - bidirectional parallel port.
> > - IDE Interface
> > - comes in a 100pin QFP Package.
> > 
> > Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)
> > 
> I thought the idea was to use a ISA card for the FDC and parallel port.
> I'd like to see 16550s on the MB though.  If for anything developent
> reasons.  How much is a dual 16550 UART?  If the difference is small use
> the SMC FDC37C665. In any case, I'd like IDE available in some for so I
> can keep my HD. 
> 
If this 37C665 can provide for 2 serial ports w/FIFO's, plus
parallel port, plus floppy, plus IDE, and we also have SCSI and
Ethernet, then what else do you want?  Forget the expansion bus.

A big advantage is that the _minimum_ configuration is more
complete, so all software developed for the machine can assume all
this stuff is available.  This is the best argument for video on the
motherboard -- everybody has the same video hardware, so everybody
can use the same video software.  It would be even nicer to be
assured that everybody has the same SCSI adapter, the same Ethernet
adapter, the same IDE adapter, the same floppy adapter, the same
serial ports and parallel ports.

With surface mount, the only problem becomes fitting all the
connectors on one board. ;-)

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From calica@cae.wisc.edu  Ukn Jul  8 17:34:29 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307082100.AA00730@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: IDE/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 16:00:10 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307081941.AA18509@rei.com>; from "6692" at Jul 8, 93 2:41 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
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> If this 37C665 can provide for 2 serial ports w/FIFO's, plus
> parallel port, plus floppy, plus IDE, and we also have SCSI and
> Ethernet, then what else do you want?  Forget the expansion bus.
> 
What if I want a sound card? Or a Data Aquistion(sp) card?  Then what
do I do?  We need a bus of some sort or the system is locked in without
expansion.  If that is the case count me out!

> A big advantage is that the _minimum_ configuration is more
> complete, so all software developed for the machine can assume all
> this stuff is available.  This is the best argument for video on the
> 
I completely agree.  Just don't kill any expansion possibilities.  It just
isn't worth it.  The complete min config is great from a driver point of
view but does tend to fix you on what you have now.  If the IBM PC didn't
have an expansion port we'd probably still have monochrome (not herc) or
CGA.

--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  8 21:26:31 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307090104.AA20573@rei.com>
Subject: Re: IDE/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 20:04:15 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307082322.AA20395@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 8, 93 06:22:31 pm
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I said:
> 
> > If this 37C665 can provide for 2 serial ports w/FIFO's, plus
> > parallel port, plus floppy, plus IDE, and we also have SCSI and
> > Ethernet, then what else do you want?  Forget the expansion bus.
> > 
Carlo responded:

> What if I want a sound card? Or a Data Aquistion(sp) card?  Then what
> do I do?  We need a bus of some sort or the system is locked in without
> expansion.  If that is the case count me out!
> 
I'm not opposed to an ISA expansion bus.  Design is an art of
compromise and trade-offs.  If there is room on the board and in the
budget for an expansion bus, that's great.  But if most of the
_function_ of the expansion bus can be accomodated by this 100-pin
quad flat pack and a 22V10 and a bus buffer, then it's not
_such_a_disaster_ if there's not room for the expansion bus, or
perhaps only one expansion socket.

I'm trying to imagine who are the people who are going to use this
thing, and how are they going to use it.  My _guess_ is that the
people who want to do data acquisition will use a commercial PC, and
probably commercial software, for that.  On the other hand, various
sound cards or MIDI interfaces are probably something that would
interest the second wave of 'riscy owners' (the pioneers will be
pleased to get the thing to send and receive mail).

Let me know if I'm wrong.  I may be completely out of touch....

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  8 22:14:54 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307090213.AA12344@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: MIPS R4200 / IDT3081 question
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 19:13:49 PDT
In-Reply-To: <199307080906.AA28443@hazelrah.cs.Colorado.EDU>; from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 8, 93 3:06 am
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> What would having sockets for the 3081 and 4200 take 
> (provided that people aren't stupid enough to plug  
> chips in both sockets at the same time)?
> 
> This would give us a working board *soon* so that Linux 
> can get ported and stable, and would allow an upgrade 
> path to the 4200 when MIPS finally ships it a year after
> the announced date :-)

Please don't forget that to design a board that has the option of
installing a R4200 (or any other part/subsystem), then that must be
tested.  To test it requires a chip!  In any case, who knows what the
bus interface is like on this chip.  If its much different from the IDT
(likely) then we have to have lots of logic to interface it, and thus,
lots of board space.  If we want to go with the R4?00, then we should
wait until it gets released, then start all of this again.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  8 22:18:27 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307090217.AA12577@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re:  Ethernet stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 19:17:01 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307080742.AA14336@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 8, 93 9:42 am
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

> No, unfortunally we haven't some spare adresses. Neil, Pyramid
> build workstations and the like, can you find out how to get
> adresses ?

I beleive that Pyramid uses someone else's Ethernet cards.  In any case,
I know Pyramid would not give out any numbers.  There would be too
much red-tape involved.

I thought that a range of numbers could be had for close to nothing.
You just have to get in touch with who ever issues them (much like
getting an internet number).

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  9 01:13:20 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 07:36:15 GMT
Message-Id: <9307090736.AA10891@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA10891; Fri, 9 Jul 93 07:36:15 GMT
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: IDE/UART
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> [...]
> I'm not opposed to an ISA expansion bus.  Design is an art of
> compromise and trade-offs.  If there is room on the board and in the
> budget for an expansion bus, that's great.  But if most of the
> _function_ of the expansion bus can be accomodated by this 100-pin
> quad flat pack and a 22V10 and a bus buffer, then it's not
> _such_a_disaster_ if there's not room for the expansion bus, or
> perhaps only one expansion socket.

I did *not* made the suggestion to use that Super I/O thing because
I like to skip the ISA bus. I suggested it because we *definitly*
need UARTS, and we have some good reasons (floppy boot) to have a FDC
on board. Well, that chip has additional parallel and IDE interfaces.
That's nice. Nothing more.

> I'm trying to imagine who are the people who are going to use this
> thing, and how are they going to use it.  My _guess_ is that the
> people who want to do data acquisition will use a commercial PC, and
> probably commercial software, for that.  On the other hand, various
> sound cards or MIDI interfaces are probably something that would
> interest the second wave of 'riscy owners' (the pioneers will be
> pleased to get the thing to send and receive mail).

Yes, sending mail is even for me more important than MIDI, but,
you won't believe it, that thing has *free* programmable baud rates
from XX to 115k. Baudrate is set by a 16bit timer for each UART,
so even the MIDI baudrate shouldn't be a problem. You just have to
add the opto-isolators! 

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas Busse             | e-mail: andy@piggy.waldorf-gmbh.de (home)
Eislebenstrasse 5         |         andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (office)
D-5300 Bonn 1             | Phone:  +49 (0)228-252687
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 
From paul@suite.sw.oz.au  Ukn Jul  9 01:28:51 1993
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From: paul@suite.sw.oz.au (Paul Antoine)
Message-Id: <199307090508.AA18226@suite.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 15:08:30 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9307090217.AA12577@sword.eng.pyramid.com> from "Neil Russell" at Jul 8, 93 07:17:01 pm
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
X-Face: 
	#INY+G.,0T9NM/sS{;MG$=(^kyV,<kN!j*1>0=\3F</{Npx7Pc=*ez6NC2^8H;!}qiqZn_X
	g'qeG^tfI~y[_DCE'LH""uWAS!/Ib`$)I?,{i_!|ZN~AO$V+Ngl)+7sZ-RF6~8JR+w=K|w6
	De.N"YT*#<5:ZEJUO-#OVu1}_-j4[v4f+>43Lypv1r~Y0u>wgATNe&>HKt`gW%dF|RCmT|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 929       
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> I thought that a range of numbers could be had for close to nothing.
> You just have to get in touch with who ever issues them (much like
> getting an internet number).

Get in contact with the IEEE in New York (city I think?), they will
allocate a block of numbers for us for a nominal fee if I remember
correctly.  They keep the registry for all such numbers ever allocated
to any manufacturer throughout the world.

Paul

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Antoine, Softway Pty Ltd			           Net: paul@sw.oz.au
PO Box 305, Strawberry Hills, NSW 2012, Australia          Tel: +61 2 698 2322
Level 2, 79 Myrtle St, Chippendale, NSW 2008, Australia    Fax: +61 2 699 9174

"Proper management technique must include checking that all staff have
 play-lunch and that there are no unfair swapsies."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  9 03:07:15 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 08:57:00 +0200
Message-Id: <9307090657.AA16341@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA16341; Fri, 9 Jul 93 08:57:00 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: MIPS R4200 / IDT3081 question
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> > This would give us a working board *soon* so that Linux 
> > can get ported and stable, and would allow an upgrade 
> > path to the 4200 when MIPS finally ships it a year after
> > the announced date :-)

> Please don't forget that to design a board that has the option of
> installing a R4200 (or any other part/subsystem), then that must be
> tested.  To test it requires a chip!  In any case, who knows what the
> bus interface is like on this chip.  If its much different from the IDT
> (likely) then we have to have lots of logic to interface it, and thus,
> lots of board space.  If we want to go with the R4?00, then we should
> wait until it gets released, then start all of this again.

I totally agree. If we don't get all necessary information about
the R4K2 within a few days and samples within a few weeks, we should
forget about that. And this is very unlikely.

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  9 03:33:13 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 09:11:07 +0200
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	id AA16419; Fri, 9 Jul 93 09:11:07 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> > I thought that a range of numbers could be had for close to nothing.
> > You just have to get in touch with who ever issues them (much like
> > getting an internet number).
> 
> Get in contact with the IEEE in New York (city I think?), they will
> allocate a block of numbers for us for a nominal fee if I remember
> correctly.  They keep the registry for all such numbers ever allocated
> to any manufacturer throughout the world.
> 
> Paul

Ok, if people don't mind I will get in touch with the IEEE to get
some Ethernet numbers. Waldorf will need them anyway, so we will
pay for them. Ok ?
How many numbers will we need for the riscy boards ? 500 ? 1000 ? more ?

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  9 07:05:24 1993
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	id AA22056; Fri, 9 Jul 93 12:50:43 +0200
From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 12:49:22 +0200
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	id AA16936; Fri, 9 Jul 93 12:49:22 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: R4200
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Hi Mipsers !

I've got a statement from IDT regarding the R4200:

We all should *not* know about !

More exactly: IDT is working on a R4200, but their highest
priority is the Orion chip. It is *very* unlikely that
the R4200 will be available this year, even in sample quantities.

I will get more information next week, but we should not
expect any significant change.

We should better forget about the R4K2, agreed ?

Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  9 07:49:26 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 12:20:35 +0200
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	id AA16867; Fri, 9 Jul 93 12:20:35 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: SIMMs
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Hello !

I tried to figure out prices for SIMM modules. I'm not
sure if it's the same in USA, but I doubt that it is
very different.

All our distributors told me: 
"Well, we can give you prices, but next week they aren't
valid anymore - buy now or forget the price".

All modules will become more expensive because the 
manufacturers are nearly sold out.
If it's different in USA, please let me know.

This should be a reason for us to use the good old
1Mx9 or 4Mx9 modules, because we probably have them
already in our old Intel box.

Andy


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  9 08:50:29 1993
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Date: 09 Jul 93 08:45:37 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

--- You wrote:
How many numbers will we need for the riscy boards ? 500 ? 1000 ? more ?
--- end of quoted material ---
I think that when you get addreses, you end up with the upper 24 bits
defined, and you do anything you want with the 24 lower bits -- i.e. you get
a block of 16 million addresses.  If my local enquiries come back, I'll
forward info to Andy.  (Unless, again, I screw up a reply and I forward the
info to everyone.)

So far all I've gotten back is confirmation that the IEEE handles it, and
that Dartmouth College has a block, since we manufacture Ethernet cards for
the routers we build.

 
From a080700@hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk  Ukn Jul  9 10:23:21 1993
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	(16.8/16.2) id AA12593; Fri, 9 Jul 93 22:18:49 +0800
From: Stephen S M Wong <a080700@hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk>
Subject: Re: FDC/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 22:18:48 HKT
In-Reply-To: <9307081338.AA15221@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 8, 93 3:38 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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X-Status: 

Hi Risciers,

>For those thinking that 16450's aren't good enough,
>I've found something new:
>
>SMC FDC37C665
>
>- 765 compatible FDC, able to r/w 2.88 MB floppys
>- Two 16550 UARTS with 16byte send/rec. fifo
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>- bidirectional parallel port.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>- IDE Interface
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>- comes in a 100pin QFP Package.

That's GREAT!!

>Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)
>
>What do you think about ?

Although the price is a little bit high, can we use this multi-purpose
chip instead of SCSI + UART + PAL (for parallel port)?  I like 16550,
I like bi-directional parallel port, and I have IDE drives.  

Will this chip save us bucks + real estate?
--
*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*
v Stephen Wong Siu-ming    v internet: stephenwong@cuhk.hk  v
^ Computer Services Center ^ bitnet  : a080700@cucsc.bitnet ^
* Chinese University of    * phone   : (852) 609-8904       *
v Hong Kong                v fax     : (852) 603-5001       v
*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  9 10:54:59 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 16:48:15 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
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> [stuff regarding the SMC Super I/O FDC/UART/IDE chip deleted]
>
> That's GREAT!!
>
> >Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)
> >
> >What do you think about ?

> Although the price is a little bit high, can we use this multi-purpose
> chip instead of SCSI + UART + PAL (for parallel port)?  I like 16550,
> I like bi-directional parallel port, and I have IDE drives.  

> Will this chip save us bucks + real estate?

The price is for low quantities, without asking for a better one.
I think in higher quantities and after some discussion it will be
around $19 or so.
But using this chip should *not* force another discussion wether
we need SCSI or not. SCSI is a *must* and is already accepted,
so far I know.
This chip just offers the choice between SCSI and IDE drives,
and this by accident. If there were the same chip without IDE
for $5 less, I would take it. But this isn't the case.

The chip will save one ISA slot. It will save one double-UART
or two single-UARTs, it will save two 20pin DIL-parts, it will
save a FDC and it will save some glue. I would say, it *does*
save real estate for a reasonable price.

Cheers,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com  Ukn Jul  9 12:26:03 1993
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From: kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com (Russell Kent)
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Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 11:22:44 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307091020.AA16867@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 9, 93 12:20 pm
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I've been thinking about memory.  I'm a software weenie, so if I've
seriously mis-understood, please *gently* correct me.

Some folks have pointed out that since this is a RISC CPU, then the
executables will be significantly larger (40% was the number I read).
This implies that 8Mb of RAM really is not sufficient.  The next logical
memory size is 16Mb (you could go to 12Mb, but that makes 2-way interleaving
impossible I believe).  To take full advantage of 2-way interleaving though,
you need two banks, which therefore implies 16 1Mb SIMMs.

This has the nice feature of being expandable to 32Mb, 40Mb, and 64Mb.
(Since any bank of 8 could be upgraded to 4Mb SIMMs.  Upgrading a single
bank of 4 would eliminate the 2-way interleave capability, right?)

BUT, it requires all that expensive 4-, 6-, or 8- layer M/B real estate.
Plus drill holes through all those layers is not a pleasant thought (routing
headaches, reliability, cost).  And 16 SIMM sockets ($).

Since Waldorf has (seems to have) agreed to produce boards that have surface
mount components, would it be reasonable to mount discrete memory chips
on the M/B?  Here was what I was considering:

  18 1Mbx4 70ns (is 70ns fast enough?) surface mount DRAMs on the M/B.
      (18 because I assume the 3730 part wants parity bits)
   8 standard SIMMs on M/B

This way every board has 8Mb to start with.  This is enough for a bare-bones
no X11 system (or one that swaps alot :-).  One can easily add an additional
8Mb to make a 16Mb system.  Or add 32Mb to make a 40Mb system.  Or give up
2-way interleaving (if that's possible) and make a 12Mb, 24Mb, or 28Mb system.

Important questions:

  - Will the 18 components in small surface mount packages use less
    real estate than 8 SIMM sockets?

  - How does mounting 18 discretes compare with 8 SIMM sockets cost-wise?
    (PWB fabrication has fewer holes, but board stuffer has more stuffing).

  - If one makes as few as 56 boards you break the 1000's in the DRAM count
    (which gets you to the first cost break).  But cost-wise how does this
    compare to SIMMs?

Russell Kent
-- 
Texas Instruments                   rkent@lobby.ti.com   -or-
PO Box 655012  M/S 3624             kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com
Dallas, TX 75265                    TI-MSG: RAK9
Voice: (214) 917-2285               FAX: (214) 917-5112

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  9 13:31:38 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 13:28:58 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307091622.AA02441@titania.pac.sc.ti.com> from "Russell Kent" at Jul 9, 93 11:22:44 am
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I also asked awhile ago with no answer.

With the 3730 will the motherboard work with 4 4MBx9 simms?  

If so will it be interleaved or not?

What exactly do you need for interleaving?  Multiples of 8 sims of the same
size (per group of 8)?

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  9 14:55:49 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307091848.AA10482@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 13:48:22 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307091622.AA02441@titania.pac.sc.ti.com> from "Russell Kent" at Jul 9, 93 11:22:44 am
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> I've been thinking about memory.  I'm a software weenie, so if I've
> seriously mis-understood, please *gently* correct me.
> 
> Some folks have pointed out that since this is a RISC CPU, then the
> executables will be significantly larger (40% was the number I read).
> This implies that 8Mb of RAM really is not sufficient.  The next logical
> memory size is 16Mb (you could go to 12Mb, but that makes 2-way interleaving
> impossible I believe).  To take full advantage of 2-way interleaving though,
> you need two banks, which therefore implies 16 1Mb SIMMs.
> 
> This has the nice feature of being expandable to 32Mb, 40Mb, and 64Mb.
> (Since any bank of 8 could be upgraded to 4Mb SIMMs.  Upgrading a single
> bank of 4 would eliminate the 2-way interleave capability, right?)
> 
> BUT, it requires all that expensive 4-, 6-, or 8- layer M/B real estate.
> Plus drill holes through all those layers is not a pleasant thought (routing
> headaches, reliability, cost).  And 16 SIMM sockets ($).
Then, if we run out of space, we can put the memory on a card, and only pay
for the edge connector in terms of 4+-layer MB space; the memory would
be sitting on a 2-layer or so card, which would be cheaper.  But bear in mind
that the motherboard has to be baby-AT size or (PERHAPS) full-size AT size,
to fit in most cases.

[deletia] 
> Important questions:
> 
>   - Will the 18 components in small surface mount packages use less
>     real estate than 8 SIMM sockets?
How can they?  You're talking about laying that number of SIMMS down flat on
the motherboard, instead of mounting them nearly perpendicular...
 
>   - How does mounting 18 discretes compare with 8 SIMM sockets cost-wise?
>     (PWB fabrication has fewer holes, but board stuffer has more stuffing).
How do you replace a bad chip?  How do you even swap the chips around to try
to see which ones are bad?  
 
>   - If one makes as few as 56 boards you break the 1000's in the DRAM count
>     (which gets you to the first cost break).  But cost-wise how does this
>     compare to SIMMs?
Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?


> Russell Kent

	Keith


 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  9 15:42:16 1993
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Date: 09 Jul 93 15:39:01 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re: SIMMs
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--- Keith Rohrer wrote:
Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?
--- end of quoted material ---
4 Meg by 8 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each, 
1 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each,
2 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $250 each.

I doubt that you'll get quantities large enough to reduce this much.

Oh, it's time to consider 1 Meg by 8 SIMMs obsolete -- they're on the way
out.

 
From jcallen@Think.COM  Ukn Jul  9 15:50:04 1993
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From: Jerry Callen <jcallen@Think.COM>
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In-Reply-To: Keith Rohrer's message of Fri, 9 Jul 1993 13:48:22 -0600 (CDT) <9307091848.AA10482@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
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   From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
   Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 13:48:22 -0600 (CDT)

   >   - Will the 18 components in small surface mount packages use less
   >     real estate than 8 SIMM sockets?
   How can they?  You're talking about laying that number of SIMMS down flat on
   the motherboard, instead of mounting them nearly perpendicular...

ZIPs (which are thru-hole, not SMT) stand up vertically and are VERY dense.

   How do you replace a bad chip?  How do you even swap the chips around to try
   to see which ones are bad?  

You either use ZIP sockets or (my preference) you just solder the suckers
to the board like any other component and it either works or not. You're
buying tested parts; if you handle them properly, they should work. People
seem willing to trust that other components will work; why not DRAM?

I think the idea of having a base amount of memory and then SIMMs for
expansion is potentially very sound.

   >   - If one makes as few as 56 boards you break the 1000's in the DRAM count
   >     (which gets you to the first cost break).  But cost-wise how does this
   >     compare to SIMMs?
   Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?

Undoubtedly, assuming we have the buyers.

-- Jerry Callen
   jcallen@world.std.com           (preferred)
   jcallen@think.com               (OK, too)
   {uunet,harvard}!think!jcallen   (if you must)

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  9 16:15:31 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 16:12:00 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <5408910@prancer.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Steven D. Ligett" at Jul 9, 93 03:39:01 pm
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> 
> --- Keith Rohrer wrote:
> Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?
> --- end of quoted material ---
> 4 Meg by 8 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each, 
> 1 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each,
> 2 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $250 each.
> 
> I doubt that you'll get quantities large enough to reduce this much.
> 
> Oh, it's time to consider 1 Meg by 8 SIMMs obsolete -- they're on the way
> out.
> 
Why use 80ns instead of 70ns big price saving?

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From jcallen@Think.COM  Ukn Jul  9 16:24:22 1993
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   From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
   Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 16:12:00 -0500 (EDT)

   Why use 80ns instead of 70ns big price saving?

Actually, this is the sort of thing you won't know until the memory system
design is done. You may or may not need 70ns parts...

-- Jerry Callen
   jcallen@world.std.com           (preferred)
   jcallen@think.com               (OK, too)
   {uunet,harvard}!think!jcallen   (if you must)

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  9 16:49:40 1993
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 15:45:09 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307092045.AA21696@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: SMC Super I/O FDC
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Electronic Buyer's News, June 28th, 1993, page 48. "SMC's Chips
Gather Steam" -
 "Earlier this month SMC shipped four new super I/O floppy-disk
  controllers for 2.88 MByte floppy-disk drives and high-performance
  16550-compatible UART's."  Two versions have parallel ports on-board.

            FDC    Uarts  Parallel   IDE   Game Pt Sel o/p  s/w config  US$
FDC37c651    y      450      y        y          n              y
FDC37c652    y      450      y        y          y              n
FDC37c661    4MB    450      y        y          n              y
FDC37c662    4MB    450      y        y          y              n

FDC37c663    4MB    550      y        y          n              y
FDC37c664    4MB    550      y        y          y              y
FDC37c665    4MB    550      ECP      y          n              y   23.00
FDC37c666    4MB    550      ECP      y          y              y

63/4/5/6 - +550's +Gp address o/p +internal drive swap +midi data rate

ECP means Extended Capability Parallel Port.  FIFO, DMA support, stuff
 like that.

All are 100 pin pqfp.

SMC contact - Richard Wahler (516) 435-6174.

The FDC connects straight to the Floppy Bus.  34-pin header.
The 16550's connect straight to rs-232 level translators.
 1488/1489 (+/- 12 Volts is on m/board), header/connectors req'd.
The parallel has a FIFO, connects straight to printer port
 (EMI RC network recommended.)

I like the MIDI data rate capability of the 63/4/5/6 series.  We probably
could save a buck or two by dropping ECP - using 63/64 instead of 65/66.

I suggest that andy@waldorf check his price on the fdc37c663.
My local distributor is not being responsive at all.  The parts aren't
on his price list.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  9 17:27:22 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307092039.AA26220@rei.com>
Subject: Re: FDC/UART
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 15:39:09 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307091731.AA25226@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 9, 93 12:31:49 pm
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> > [stuff regarding the SMC Super I/O FDC/UART/IDE chip deleted]
> >
> > That's GREAT!!
> >
> But using this chip should *not* force another discussion wether
> we need SCSI or not. SCSI is a *must* and is already accepted,
> so far I know.
> This chip just offers the choice between SCSI and IDE drives,
> and this by accident. If there were the same chip without IDE
> for $5 less, I would take it. But this isn't the case.
> 
> The chip will save one ISA slot. It will save one double-UART
> or two single-UARTs, it will save two 20pin DIL-parts, it will
> save a FDC and it will save some glue. I would say, it *does*
> save real estate for a reasonable price.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
Yes!  This is exactly my thinking.  This chip gives us two fast
UARTS for no extra cost in board real estate.  As a _bonus_, it gives
us a bi-directional parallel port and a floppy controller for only
the cost of the connectors.  Even an IDE adapter if we can find room
for that connector, too.  I think this chip (what was it ??C655 ?)
is great, and will be a big help.

I also think it is great to have a manufacturer that is willing and
able to do surface mount, so that chips like this are accessible to
us.  Thanks, Andy!

I do _not_want_ to give up the ISA expansion bus.  I'm just concerned
that we're specifying a lot of _big_ connectors on a finite size
board.  These connectors are all through-hole, too, aren't they?
That means they take up space on both sides of the board, so you
can't even put surface mount parts on the other side of the board
from the connectors.


-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  9 17:38:46 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307092110.AA26534@rei.com>
Subject: Re: SIMMS
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 16:10:46 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307091731.AA25233@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 9, 93 12:31:52 pm
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> I've been thinking about memory.  I'm a software weenie, so if I've
> seriously mis-understood, please *gently* correct me.
> 
Same goes for me, too.

[Mucho memory in SIMMS]
> requires all that expensive 4-, 6-, or 8- layer M/B real estate.
> Plus drill holes through all those layers is not a pleasant thought (routing
> headaches, reliability, cost).  And 16 SIMM sockets ($).
> 
> Since Waldorf has (seems to have) agreed to produce boards that have surface
> mount components, would it be reasonable to mount discrete memory chips
> on the M/B?  Here was what I was considering:
> 
>   18 1Mbx4 70ns (is 70ns fast enough?) surface mount DRAMs on the M/B.
>       (18 because I assume the 3730 part wants parity bits)
>    8 standard SIMMs on M/B
> 
> Russell Kent
> 
If the answers to Russell's questions (which I deleted) are positive
I think this is a good idea.  It raises the base price of the board,
but a board with _no_ memory is worthless anyway.  For me,
personally, 32 MegaBytes in surface mount and no SIMMS would be OK,
but I realize that the amount of memory people want, and want to pay
for, varies wildly.  Russell's compromise addresses that.

I guess the real key is whether Waldorf can put surface mount
components on both sides of the board.  There is probably very
little difference between SIMM sockets and surface mount if it's all
on one side of the board.

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  9 18:10:13 1993
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Message-Id: <199307092207.AA01831@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: FDC/UART 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1993 10:29:30 CDT."
             <9307081529.AA21908@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1993 16:07:32 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--------

    > SMC FDC37C665
    > 
    > - 765 compatible FDC, able to r/w 2.88 MB floppys
    > - Two 16550 UARTS with 16byte send/rec. fifo
    > - bidirectional parallel port.
    > - IDE Interface
    > - comes in a 100pin QFP Package.
    > 
    > Price is around $23 in low quantities (1...10)
    > 
    > What do you think about ?
    >

    I thought the idea was to use a ISA card for the FDC and parallel port.
    I'd like to see 16550s on the MB though.  If for anything developent
    reasons.  How much is a dual 16550 UART?  If the difference is small use
    the SMC FDC37C665. In any case, I'd like IDE available in some for so I
    can keep my HD. 

    FYI, UART information :

National Semi NS16C552V dual 16550 UART

Pricing :

Lots of 100 : $13.10
Sample quantities : $16.50

Package : 44 Lead Plastic Chip Carrier, about .65" X .65"

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  9 18:56:50 1993
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 17:53:06 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307092253.AA22424@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: what parts ?
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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> From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
> 
> * SCSI controller
> 	53c90,53cf90

> * Ethernet controller
> 	??                       
Probably DP8390, or DP83902

> * Ethernet glue
> 	??                       
DP8391 for coax.

> * Video Timing/RAMDAC:
> 	TI 34076
How much is this?

> * VRAM
> 	??
Sigh, I could live with 1 MBit of display memory for B/W.

> * serial/parallel:
> 	16550
Drop this.

> * floppy controller
> 	SMC FDC37C651 (has two 16450 and parallel built in)
SMC FDC37c663 - has 16550's, IDE.

> * CPU
> 	3081E/40
Is this "20 MHz bus/ 40 MHz internal"?

> * RAM
> 	4Mx9, 512Kx36, 2Mx36
8 MBytes on board sounds reasonable.

> * I/O Controller
> 	IDT 3730

> * RTClock
>         ??
Dallas Semiconductor DS12887,  Moto 146818 compatible, 
 built-in battery & crystal.  Extended (additional 64 bytes) NVRAM.

> * Keyboard controller
> 	??
8742 with some kind of BIOS.  Of course, we won't be using the "gatea20"
 feature, and the "reset" feature may be debated.

> * GLUE (if there's something you don't where to put, put it here)
> 	??
> 
> * Connectors
> 	9pin sub-D, 15pin sub-D VGA, 25pin sub-D, 5pin DIN (Keyboard),
> 	BNC, 15pin sub-D (AUI), ISA Conn., Power Supply Conn.,
34-pin FDC header, 10-pin 2nd serial header, 50-pin IDE header.

> I'm sure I have forgotten something :-)
That's always my problem.  Like the fact that I should be home by now.

> Andy
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  9 18:58:05 1993
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 17:54:10 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307092254.AA22427@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Jobs to allocate
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I'll volunteer for Keyboard or SCSI.  But I'd like the
data sheet for the 3730.  I've requested the IDT3050/81
information package from IDT.  Does that include information
on the 3730?

We could get 8742's from a licensed Phoenix vendor.  We could
even use PS/2 mouse connections at the cost of a mini-DIN connector
(and EMI protection).

It appears that modern PC keyboard controllers can generate the normal
keyboard interrupt (IRQ1) and a second interrupt (IRQ12).  My guess
is that the second interrupt is for PS/2 mouse communications.

Last I looked there was no PS/2 mouse support in the linux kernel,
so I don't know what that would look like in hardware.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  9 18:58:36 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307092255.AA04310@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: SIMMS
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 15:55:53 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307092110.AA26534@rei.com>; from "6692" at Jul 9, 93 4:10 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
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X-Status: 

> If the answers to Russell's questions (which I deleted) are positive
> I think this is a good idea.  It raises the base price of the board,
> but a board with _no_ memory is worthless anyway.  For me,
> personally, 32 MegaBytes in surface mount and no SIMMS would be OK,
> but I realize that the amount of memory people want, and want to pay
> for, varies wildly.  Russell's compromise addresses that.

I have no figures but I would guess that we could get SIMMs for
cheaper than the equivalent DRAM chips.  My guess is that they would
take about 3 times the board space as the equivalent SIMM.  Also,
the cost of doing SMD placement is proportional to the number of
components you want to mount, to keeping this number down would
be useful.  Finally, many of us already have SIMM memory modules
that we could put onto this board; I for one will be replacing a
386 MB with this thing.

As for interleaving, you need 64-bits of the same type of memory
to interleave two banks.  It should be possible to interleave the
first 8 MB, and not the next 4 MB, or have 4 MB SIMMS in the first
two banks, and 1 MB SIMMS in the next two banks.

> I guess the real key is whether Waldorf can put surface mount
> components on both sides of the board.  There is probably very
> little difference between SIMM sockets and surface mount if it's all
> on one side of the board.

SMD on the other side is a *real* pain to assemble, and thus costs $$$.
The method used for the top side is to put solder paste onto the SMD
pads, place the components, then heat the board up in an I/R oven,
which melts the paste and literally sucks the component into the
corrent position.  For SMD on the underside, its the same, unless
you also have through hole stuff (which we do), then you have to glue
the components onto the underside (after you have done the top side),
then place all the through hole stuff on the top, then run the board
through a wave solder machine.  You have to play a fair bit to get
the SMD parts to stay in place on the solder wave; you end up trashing
a few boards and components.

Lets stick to SIMM sockets...

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  1 08:51:49 1993
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Message-Id: <5324102@prancer.Dartmouth.EDU>
Date: 01 Jul 93 07:00:01 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re: video
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

--- Wim van den Berge wrote:
Being on this list for only a few days, I'm not exactly sure what we're
looking for in ways of packaging, but would not something like the Cirrus
logic Alpine CL-GD5434 solve a lot of problems?
--- end of quoted material ---
I'd like something in a plcc, that's a ramdac + sync generator, easily
available, for less than $40 in 25 piece lots.  Is there something like that?

 
From berge@sierra.nl  Ukn Jul  1 08:52:21 1993
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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:17:24 +0200
From: berge@sierra.nl (Wim van den Berge)
Message-Id: <9307011217.AA25141@gatekeeper.sierra.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: video
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--- Steven D. Ligett wrote ---
> I'd like something in a plcc, that's a ramdac + sync generator, easily
> available, for less than $40 in 25 piece lots.  Is there something like that?
> 
--- end ---

No way, if you don't want top is the line, speed wise, you might get a 
controller under $40 a piece, but for an intergrated solution you're
looking at 160 pin minimum. Which means that plcc is out. If you don't
want QFP an intergrated solution is going to be difficult, going on
impossible (but I'll check)


        Wim van den Berge
        Sierra Semiconductor B.V.
        Tel    : +31 73 408888                     (:>    \/\/i/\/\
        Fax    : +31 73 423155                    (_)
        E-mail : berge@sierra.nl           =======""======

 
From berge@sierra.nl  Ukn Jul  1 08:52:31 1993
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From: berge@sierra.nl (Wim van den Berge)
Message-Id: <9307010958.AA24768@gatekeeper.sierra.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: video
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Being on this list for only a few days, I'm not exactly sure what we're 
looking for in ways of packaging, but would not something like the Cirrus
logic Alpine CL-GD5434 solve a lot of problems? Is relatively fast (30 win
marks) supports 32 bit implementations ans cost something like US$ 40 in
1K lots. The only possible problem is that its is packaged in a 208 pin
QFP. 


        Wim van den Berge
        Sierra Semiconductor B.V.
        Tel    : +31 73 408888                     (:>    \/\/i/\/\
        Fax    : +31 73 423155                    (_)
        E-mail : berge@sierra.nl           =======""======


 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  1 08:52:35 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Video
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 04:43:03 -0500 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
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X-Status: 

Boy the list has been quite today...

Hmmm it looks like half of the design of the motherboard is going to be video.

Seems like it could be kinda of tricky with the timing, and high bandwidth.

Any implementation we do is going to need custom drivers (especially if 
accelerated.) Scsi and ethernet seem easy to put on the mtb by comparison.

Might not a VESA slot be easier to design?  Faster?  Better supported?
(i.e. accelerated drivers). 

Of course VESA support requires ISA support.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From berge@sierra.nl  Ukn Jul  1 10:34:36 1993
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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 16:31:14 +0200
From: berge@sierra.nl (Wim van den Berge)
Message-Id: <9307011431.AA25586@gatekeeper.sierra.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: video
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--- Rogier Wolff wrote ---

> We have an SGS Thompson G335 chip here. It has 100 pins, and is fully
> integrated: timing, color palette, shift control. Runs upto 135 MHz,
> However it is not available in PGA or PLCC, but only in flatpack.
> 
> This to tell you that you can fit an integrated solution in around 100
> pins.

--- end ---

>From the description (timing + color palette + shift register) it
looks to me like you are still missing the SVGA controller with the
hardware accelerator. To my knowledge SGS never made a SVGA
controller before. They are already for many years a Color DAC
manufacturer.

I think that this G335 is something similar to what Music
Semiconductor provides = a color DAC + frequency synthesizer (PLL)
for generating the pixel clock (to the shift register) and
probably the memory clock.

Cirrus (and Sierra) decided to skip this type of product and go straight
to a fully integrated solution, that also includes the SVGA
controller and the accelerator.

It would be nice to have a look at the SGS data sheet. Rogier if you can
get me a copy, it would be greatly appriciated


        Wim van den Berge
        Sierra Semiconductor B.V.
        Tel    : +31 73 408888                     (:>    \/\/i/\/\
        Fax    : +31 73 423155                    (_)
        E-mail : berge@sierra.nl           =======""======


 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  1 10:37:11 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: call for documentation
To: ewt@SunSITE.unc.edu (Erik Troan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:36:28 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.05.9307010830.A10456-a100000@calypso> from "Erik Troan" at Jul 1, 93 08:55:32 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
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> I'm in the process of trying to setup such an archive (it should be ready
> by Friday at the latest) on sunsite.unc.edu. It will be at
> /pub/micro/mips-pc/riscy-archive. I've gotten all of the messages posted
> so far and having been saving the daily posts since then. 

Great.... I posted the sources to a mailer by accident not worth
archiving... 
> 
> Additionally, all of the posts from this mailing list will be wais indexed.

Cool never used wais (besides xmoasaic anyways).

> If you'd rather do this yourself or have any comments, let me know.
Sounds like it's in hands more capable then mine.


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From hp@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  Ukn Jul  1 11:27:12 1993
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From: Peter Holzer <hp@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307011522.AA04384@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: video
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 17:22:33 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <9307011431.AA25586@gatekeeper.sierra.nl>; from "Wim van den Berge" at Jul 1, 93 4:31 pm
Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
Return-Receipt-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
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[another lurker awakens :-)]

You (Wim van den Berge) wrote:
> >From the description (timing + color palette + shift register) it
> looks to me like you are still missing the SVGA controller with the
> hardware accelerator.

What do you need the svga controller and accelerator for? I thought we
were going for a dumb frame buffer?

	hp

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |

 
From hp@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  Ukn Jul  1 12:04:07 1993
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From: Peter Holzer <hp@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307011556.AA04486@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 17:56:39 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <9307011527.AA01393@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>; from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 1, 93 11:29 am
Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

You (Bill Broadley) wrote:
> 
> > What do you need the svga controller and accelerator for? I thought we
> > were going for a dumb frame buffer?
> > 
> > 	hp
> If we just put a connector on the board for vesa then we can have
> an upgradable video card while concentrating on the important stuff
> like the cpu, memory, dma etc.

This is another option we should seriously consider. It would also
solve the ISA vs. proprietary I/O bus controversy.

The mails I answered were about choosing the right chips for on board
video, however. Most people here seem to think building an on-board
frame buffer will be easier and/or faster than building a VESA
interface and using a VESA video card (or maybe it is just more
interesting). I don't know much about hardware (and less about VESA),
so I cannot comment on that. Personally I think that the MIPS CPU is
fast enough to saturate the memory bandwidth of the frame buffer, so we
won't gain much performance from an accelerator.

Just to summarize (and see if I missed something):

CPU: Seems to be settled. 3051 and 3081 have same pin layout, so
	everybody can use what he needs and can afford.

Video: Most people prefer on board dumb frame buffer. Some want a VESA
	interface. Accelerator (at least TMS 340x0) seems out.

SCSI: onboard

I/O bus: Heavy controversy between ISA-fans and people who want a
	simple 8-bit bus to build their own hardware for. Personally
	I'd like something which I can hook onto the 16-bit (18 with
	parity) FIFO of our real time computers :-)

Serial: At least one on board for early development.

Everything else: on I/O bus.

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |

 
From berge@sierra.nl  Ukn Jul  1 12:49:51 1993
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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 18:22:28 +0200
From: berge@sierra.nl (Wim van den Berge)
Message-Id: <9307011622.AA25975@gatekeeper.sierra.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: video (and more)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

--- Peter J. Holzer wrote ---

> Personally I think that the MIPS CPU is
> fast enough to saturate the memory bandwidth of the frame buffer, so we
> won't gain much performance from an accelerator.

Personaly I think you're wrong, I think there is plenty to be gained from
a graphics solution which contains a hardware BITBLT and LINE DRAW engine.
If I remember correctly these two functions comprise between 50 and 85 percent
of the overhead in a non accelerated windows environment. That a lot, even for 
the fast MIPS CPU.


        Wim van den Berge
        Sierra Semiconductor B.V.
        Tel    : +31 73 408888                     (:>    \/\/i/\/\
        Fax    : +31 73 423155                    (_)
        E-mail : berge@sierra.nl           =======""======

 
From wolff@zen.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  1 16:04:20 1993
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From: wolff@zen.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307012000.AA29987@zen.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Vesa bus.
Status: RO
X-Status: 


There seems to be a discussion going about adding a "Vesa bus".
Is this the "Vesa local bus" that current 486 machines are 
equipped with? If so, I thought that this bus was more or less
exactly the 486 bus interface. Therefore, adding somthing compatible
with this on another processor would be hard.

Please correct me if I am wrong.....

					Roger.

 
From hahn@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  1 16:24:02 1993
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From: Mark Hahn <hahn@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 15:46:43 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307011622.AA25975@gatekeeper.sierra.nl> from "Wim van den Berge" at Jul 1, 93 06:22:28 pm
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Wim van den Berge said:
> Personaly I think you're wrong, I think there is plenty to be gained from
> a graphics solution which contains a hardware BITBLT and LINE DRAW engine.
> If I remember correctly these two functions comprise between 50 and 85 percent
> of the overhead in a non accelerated windows environment. That a lot, even 
> for the fast MIPS CPU.

Nope.  Read the papers; the critical path is ALWAYS memory bandwidth,
and the r3k solution will, if anything, have a better memory interface.

regards, Mark Hahn.
-- 
this space intentionally left non-blank.	hahn@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  1 16:29:12 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307012027.AA05191@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:27:13 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307012021.AA13601@gossip.pyramid.com>; from "Mark Hahn" at Jul 1, 93 3:46 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Wim van den Berge said:
> > Personaly I think you're wrong, I think there is plenty to be gained from
> > a graphics solution which contains a hardware BITBLT and LINE DRAW engine.
> > If I remember correctly these two functions comprise between 50 and 85 percent
> > of the overhead in a non accelerated windows environment. That a lot, even 
> > for the fast MIPS CPU.
> 
> Nope.  Read the papers; the critical path is ALWAYS memory bandwidth,
> and the r3k solution will, if anything, have a better memory interface.
> 
> regards, Mark Hahn.

Also, there are algorithms that when combined with an instruction cache
(which our r3k's have) that will bitblt at 100% of the memory bandwidth
once the code is in the I-cache.  That is, we can easily equal the performance
of a hardware blt'er.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl  Ukn Jul  1 16:46:39 1993
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	id AA00946; Thu, 1 Jul 93 22:42:51 +0200
From: ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl (Ronald Schalk)
Message-Id: <9307012042.AA00946@csunix.urc.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:42:50 +0200 (CET)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1186      
Status: RO
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Neil said:
> > regards, Mark Hahn.
> 
> Also, there are algorithms that when combined with an instruction cache
> (which our r3k's have) that will bitblt at 100% of the memory bandwidth
> once the code is in the I-cache.  That is, we can easily equal the performance
> of a hardware blt'er.
> 
Maybe so, but in the meanwhile the processor cannot do diddly with your
programs and kernel, so IMHO it's better to have a graphics coproc to
cover the video part (that's what it's designed for) and leave the R3K do
the real job: run programs.

Ronald Schalk

 ********************************************************************
 * ing. Ronald Schalk                                               *
 * sectie COOS                                                      *
 * Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening (UCI)                 *
 * Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (KUN)                           *
 * e-mail : R.Schalk@uci.kun.nl   snailmail: Geert Grooteplein 41   *
 * tel.   : +31 80 617993                    6525 GA Nijmegen       *
 * fax   :  +31 80 617979                    Nederland              *
 ********************************************************************
 

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  1 17:11:49 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307012110.AA13106@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: call for documentation
To: ewt@SunSite.unc.edu (Erik Troan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:10:49 PDT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.05.9307010830.A10456-a100000@calypso>; from "Erik Troan" at Jul 1, 93 8:55 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
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> I'm in the process of trying to setup such an archive (it should be ready
> by Friday at the latest) on sunsite.unc.edu. It will be at
> /pub/micro/mips-pc/riscy-archive. I've gotten all of the messages posted
> so far and having been saving the daily posts since then. 
> 
> Additionally, all of the posts from this mailing list will be wais indexed.
> 
> If you'd rather do this yourself or have any comments, let me know.
> 
> Erik

I had intended to set up an ftp site here at Pyramid for this, but
we could easily use your instead.

BTW, I have some 450 messages saved from this topic, including some
messages before the list was set up, which should be included.  The
archive I have also includes all the 'subscribe' messages, which
could be sifted out.  If you like, I can put it up temorarily for
ftp.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From U001295@HNYKUN11.URC.KUN.NL  Ukn Jul  1 17:20:03 1993
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From: U001295@HNYKUN11.URC.KUN.NL (R. Schalk)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: MIPS 4000 cheaply!!!!
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 93 22:34:52 MET
Organization: Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening
Status: RO
X-Status: 

For those of you guys that cannot read netnews: I picked up this in c.o.l.
Read it good, maybe the R4K2 becomes a viable alternative, the only problem
I see is that it works at 3V and the price 55$ is great in comparison
to the R3K, I guess we should wonder if the R3K doesn't become obsolete.
I mean how long will it be produced, the same is happening now with the
386sx and 386dx, they are either out of production, or soon to be dropped.
I'm totally guessing now, but how long does this project take, half a year?
I guess that's not discussed yet, I believe.

Ronald Schalk

>Here is a news article from Byte Magazine,
>July 1993, p28.  Copyright (c) 1993 by McGraw-Hill, Inc.
>
>LOW-POWER RISC FROM MIPS
>
>Promising "Pentium performance in a notebook,"
>Mips Technologies (Mountain View, CA) has announced
>the first power-saving chip in its R4000
>microprocessor family, an important step toward
>moving RISC chips from workstations to mainstream PCs.
>The R4200 is intended primarily for laptops that
>can run Windows NT.
>  Sample silicon wasn't available at press time, so
>all performance specifications are preliminary.
>According to Mips, the 3-V chip will use only 1.5 W at
>its top internal clock speed of 80 MHz (the external
>bus runs at 40 MHz).  A reduced-power mode
>requires only 0.4 W, and a power-down mode turns
>off the chip altogether.  Mips says the R4200 can be
>powered down and reactivated so quickly that a
>system could force the chip into power-down mode
>between keystrokes when you're typing.
>  Mips estimates the R4200 will deliver 55 SPECmarks
>for integer operations (SPECint92) and 30 SPECmarks
>for floating-point operations (SPECfp92).
>By contrast, Intel's Pentium delivers
>64.5 SPECint92 and 56 SPECfp92, respectively.
>The R4200 lacks the parallel pipelines found in
>the Pentium, but it does have separate hardware units
>for integer and floating-point instructions.
>  Based on 0.6-micron process technology, the
>R4200 squeezes 1.3 million transistors onto a small
>die of 9.2 by 9.8 millimeters.  It has a 16-KB
>instruction cache and an 8-KB data cache.  The caches,
>MMU (memory management unit), and system interface
>can be removed from the chip, so the logic
>core can be used in embedded applications.
>  Mips says the R4200 will be available in quantity
>late this year.  Versions will be manufactured by
>Mips, NEC Electronics, and possibly other partners.
>No pricing was announced, but Mips says the goal
>is to sell the chip for $55, or $1 per SPECint.
>                     -- Tom R. Halfhill
>(transcription and posting by Larry Doolittle doolittle@cebaf.gov)
>(I actually got written permission from Byte to post this!)
>
Greetings Ronald Schalk


 ********************************************************************
 * ing. Ronald Schalk                                               *
 * sectie COOS                                                      *
 * Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening (UCI)                 *
 * Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (KUN)                           *
 * e-mail : R.Schalk@uci.kun.nl   snailmail: Geert Grooteplein 41   *
 * tel.   : +31 80 617993                    6525 GA Nijmegen       *
 * fax   :  +31 80 617979                    Nederland              *
 ********************************************************************


 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  1 17:21:03 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307012118.AA14146@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:18:55 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307012042.AA00946@csunix.urc.kun.nl>; from "Ronald Schalk" at Jul 1, 93 10:42 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Neil said:
> > > regards, Mark Hahn.
> > 
> > Also, there are algorithms that when combined with an instruction cache
> > (which our r3k's have) that will bitblt at 100% of the memory bandwidth
> > once the code is in the I-cache.  That is, we can easily equal the performance
> > of a hardware blt'er.
> > 
> Maybe so, but in the meanwhile the processor cannot do diddly with your
> programs and kernel, so IMHO it's better to have a graphics coproc to
> cover the video part (that's what it's designed for) and leave the R3K do
> the real job: run programs.

Unless you have a CPU doing the whole job of maintaining the display,
there is always stuff the CPU needs to do.  If you have an accelerator,
then it probably does almost every operation quickly enough to make
it pointly for the main CPU to try and do something else at the same
time.  So you goin little.  The only truely useful accelerator (IMHO)
is another CPU (3041?).


(Note:  I'm still kind of busy making money; I needed a break, and thought
I'd do some babbling...)

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  1 17:31:45 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307012129.AA15988@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: MIPS 4000 cheaply!!!!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:29:36 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307012117.AA20959@gossip.pyramid.com>; from "R. Schalk" at Jul 1, 93 10:34 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> I see is that it works at 3V and the price 55$ is great in comparison
> to the R3K, I guess we should wonder if the R3K doesn't become obsolete.
> I mean how long will it be produced, the same is happening now with the
> 386sx and 386dx, they are either out of production, or soon to be dropped.
> I'm totally guessing now, but how long does this project take, half a year?
> I guess that's not discussed yet, I believe.


As I understand it, 3.3V and 5V stuff have the same histeresis levels,
so can interface directly.  If that is not the case, there is certainly
parts around that are designed to interface 3.3V to 5V.

$55 is probably in very large quantities.  We could probably expect to
pay a lot more.  Still it may be no more than the $300 we are expecting
to pay for the 3081E.

If we use this chip, we will have to put this project on hold for 6 months
at least.  However, given the problems I'm having trying to get hold
of info and stock of the IDT 3730, we might have to do this anyhow.
Details on the IDT 3730 will follow soon.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  1 17:45:15 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307012143.AA19221@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: IDT 3730 peripheral interface chip
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:43:15 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is the wonder chip that makes a lot of this design easy.  It
handles the DRAM/VRAM interface in such a way to take full
advantage of the short-cuts offered by DRAM (interleaving,
page-mode access, early-write mode, etc).  Also, it has
some 11 DMA channels and logic to interface to slower and thinner
busses.

The existance of this chip means that Steven Liggett (sp?) will
conceed to not using the 3041, as he intended in his design (the
3041 is a cheap, stripped r3k that Steve planned to use to
fill the void created by not having things like the 3730).

Now, the problem.  In the spec's that I have, this chip is
preliminary.  I have spoken to IDT and they expect to release the
chip some time around September.  After the release, their distributors
still have to stock up before we can get them.  I have been trying
to get IDT to give me advance information and some samples, but
they are trying to ignore me (it seems), probably because we are
small time.

Right now, there is no reasonable alternative to this device, other
than designing the equivalent ourselves.  Steve has suggested using
an FPGA or some other similar large Gate Array.  I'm not too pleased
with this idea because it means that we have to depend on expensive
hardware and software to program them.  The only alternative is to
use regular PALs, but this will use a fair amount of real-estate.

The decision now is whether we go for it now, using PALs, or wait
6 months and use what's available then.  If we wait, there could be
a real possibility of using the R4200 and getting some real
performance.  Given the speed that this project is going, it could
well be 6 months before we are ready anyhow, in which case we
should design now with the release date set some time around X-mas.


Comments?

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From drew@juliet.cs.Colorado.EDU  Ukn Jul  1 17:46:15 1993
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To: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: MIPS 4000 cheaply!!!! 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 01 Jul 1993 14:29:36 PDT."
             <9307012129.AA15988@sword.eng.pyramid.com> 
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 15:43:46 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@juliet.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Status: RO
X-Status: 


    As I understand it, 3.3V and 5V stuff have the same histeresis levels,
    so can interface directly.  If that is not the case, there is certainly
    parts around that are designed to interface 3.3V to 5V.

Many of our other chips (ie, the NS UARTs, 8390, etc) are available
in 5V only.  How hard is it to interface 3.3 to 5V?  Is the R4200
available in 5V?  What about pricing on other MIPS R4000 series
chips with a reduced bus?
    

 
From paul@suite.sw.oz.au  Ukn Jul  1 18:19:41 1993
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From: paul@suite.sw.oz.au (Paul Antoine)
Message-Id: <199307012214.AA27338@suite.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com (R3000 Mailing List)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 08:14:10 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9307012042.AA00946@csunix.urc.kun.nl> from "Ronald Schalk" at Jul 1, 93 10:42:50 pm
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
X-Face: 
	#INY+G.,0T9NM/sS{;MG$=(^kyV,<kN!j*1>0=\3F</{Npx7Pc=*ez6NC2^8H;!}qiqZn_X
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> > Also, there are algorithms that when combined with an instruction cache
> > (which our r3k's have) that will bitblt at 100% of the memory bandwidth
> > once the code is in the I-cache.  That is, we can easily equal the performance
> > of a hardware blt'er.
> > 
> Maybe so, but in the meanwhile the processor cannot do diddly with your
> programs and kernel, so IMHO it's better to have a graphics coproc to
> cover the video part (that's what it's designed for) and leave the R3K do
> the real job: run programs.

That's what a memory-to-memory DMA is for, no?  Of course, there's too
much overhead in setup for small blits with *either* a blitter or a
DMA channel, so they're best done with an algorithm that fits in the
cache.


Paul

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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PO Box 305, Strawberry Hills, NSW 2012, Australia          Tel: +61 2 698 2322
Level 2, 79 Myrtle St, Chippendale, NSW 2008, Australia    Fax: +61 2 699 9174

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From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  1 18:20:35 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307012218.AA26080@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: MIPS 4000 cheaply!!!!
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 15:18:27 PDT
In-Reply-To: <199307012143.AA18446@juliet.cs.Colorado.EDU>; from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 1, 93 3:43 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>     As I understand it, 3.3V and 5V stuff have the same histeresis levels,
>     so can interface directly.  If that is not the case, there is certainly
>     parts around that are designed to interface 3.3V to 5V.
> 
> Many of our other chips (ie, the NS UARTs, 8390, etc) are available
> in 5V only.  How hard is it to interface 3.3 to 5V?  Is the R4200
> available in 5V?  What about pricing on other MIPS R4000 series
> chips with a reduced bus?

3.3V is to reduce power consumption, which in turn allows the CPU to go
faster.  The top of the line R4200 would only be available in 3.3V.

The *only* information I have on this is the article that was posted
here in this list.  I will (probably next week) try to get information
out of MIPS (SGI).  Last time I called SGI though, it was a nightmare.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From jeremy@sw.oz.au  Ukn Jul  2 00:28:16 1993
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From: jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge)
Message-Id: <9307020421.AA09049@chao.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: IDT 3730 peripheral interface chip
To: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 14:21:36 +1000 (EST)
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: <9307012143.AA19221@sword.eng.pyramid.com> from "Neil Russell" at Jul 1, 93 02:43:15 pm
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
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Neil Russell bubbles:
> The decision now is whether we go for it now, using PALs, or wait
> 6 months and use what's available then.  If we wait, there could be
> a real possibility of using the R4200 and getting some real
> performance.  Given the speed that this project is going, it could
> well be 6 months before we are ready anyhow, in which case we
> should design now with the release date set some time around X-mas.

> Comments?

Getting any kind of OS up is going to take at least a couple of months
to get a simple framework up, and more to get a usable system (at a
rough guess).  It seems important to get a prototype system up quickly
for doing software on, even if the first saleable thing is not until
next year.  I don't think much can be done without hardware, tho the
assembler code can be rewritten and the kernel can be got compilable,
given a reasonable spec of the hardware.

	J

 
From wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  2 03:35:53 1993
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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 09:32:06 +0200
From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307020732.AA07452@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com, ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl
Subject: Re: video (and more)
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Everyone is discussing the merits of a graphics coprocessor. 
Some people argue that the R3000 will saturate the memory bandwidth anyway,
so it will be just as fast as a dedicated graphics coprocessor.
Other argue that in the time that the coprocessor is doing things, the 
R3000 would be free to do other things. 

The current tendency is that the graphics moves from dedicated graphics
processors to the main processor. This is because they can sustain the 
same graphics performance as the graphics processors. On the other hand,
if you want 150% performance (that is I estimate the "help" of the graphics
coprocessor at half the power of the main CPU.), why not invest in a 
processor that is 1.5 times faster? In this case the main processor will also 
run your applications 1.5 times faster.

					Roger.

 
From wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  2 03:46:00 1993
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From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307020742.AA07474@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: caret@pyramid.com, riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  IDT 3730 peripheral interface chip
Status: RO
X-Status: 

You mention that it costs much money to program FPGAs. 

Our programmable products supplier programs them for us. As long as we
are taking small quantities, they say it is OK if we send them the 
"software" and they will turn it into "hardware".

					Roge.r

 
From caret@pyramid.com  Ukn Jul  2 03:49:50 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307020747.AA10723@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: video (and more)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 0:47:47 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307020732.AA07452@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>; from "Rogier Wolff" at Jul 2, 93 9:32 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Everyone is discussing the merits of a graphics coprocessor. 
> Some people argue that the R3000 will saturate the memory bandwidth anyway,
> so it will be just as fast as a dedicated graphics coprocessor.
> Other argue that in the time that the coprocessor is doing things, the 
> R3000 would be free to do other things. 
> 
> The current tendency is that the graphics moves from dedicated graphics
> processors to the main processor. This is because they can sustain the 
> same graphics performance as the graphics processors. On the other hand,
> if you want 150% performance (that is I estimate the "help" of the graphics
> coprocessor at half the power of the main CPU.), why not invest in a 
> processor that is 1.5 times faster? In this case the main processor will also 
> run your applications 1.5 times faster.

Since the r3k's all have caches, they would all be able to run a bitblt
fast enough to saturate the memory bus with only data transactions (
instructions are all in cache remember).  Therefore its not the CPU speed
that determines graphics speed; its the memory.  I expect that everyone
that cares will buy the fastest memory available.  So your point it moot.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845

 
From tthorn@daimi.aau.dk  Ukn Jul  2 03:50:10 1993
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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:47:33 +0200
From: Tommy Thorn <tthorn@daimi.aau.dk>
Message-Id: <199307020747.AA17860@avignon.daimi.aau.dk>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Bootstrapping [was: IDT 3730 peripheral interface chip]
Reply-To: Tommy.Thorn@daimi.aau.dk
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jeremy Fitzhardinge writes:
 > Neil Russell bubbles:
 > > The decision now is whether we go for it now, using PALs, or wait
 > > 6 months and use what's available then.  If we wait, there could be
 > > a real possibility of using the R4200 and getting some real
 > > performance.  Given the speed that this project is going, it could
 > > well be 6 months before we are ready anyhow, in which case we
 > > should design now with the release date set some time around X-mas.
 > 
 > > Comments?

I'd say go for it. The R4x00 would make the motherboard much
more attractive. I agree that chances are we ain't gonna finish
our motherboard before that anyway.

 > Getting any kind of OS up is going to take at least a couple of months
 > to get a simple framework up, and more to get a usable system (at a
 > rough guess).  It seems important to get a prototype system up quickly
 > for doing software on, even if the first saleable thing is not until
 > next year.  I don't think much can be done without hardware, tho the
 > assembler code can be rewritten and the kernel can be got compilable,
 > given a reasonable spec of the hardware.
 > 
 > 	J

Lately I've been considering setting up a software simulator (like
they did in the famous smart frame buffer paper).

Using gcc+binutils to build a cross compiler and a tweeked version
of spim, we could headstart things like porting libc.

As we approch final specs more hardware could be emulated by
spim. I might have limited access to a mips machine, so I'll
start setting up a cross compiler.

/Tommy

 
From ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl  Ukn Jul  2 05:48:23 1993
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From: ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl (Ronald Schalk)
Message-Id: <9307020941.AA01983@csunix.urc.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: Vesa bus.
To: riscy@pyramid.com (project riscy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 11:41:42 +0200 (CET)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2175      
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Forwarded message:
> From root Fri Jul 02 00:06 MET DST 19
> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 22:00:17 +0200
> From: wolff@zen.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
> Subject: Vesa bus.
> To: riscy@pyramid.com
> Message-Id: <9307012000.AA29987@zen.et.tudelft.nl>
> X-Envelope-To: ronald@CSUNIX.URC.KUN.NL
> 
> 
> There seems to be a discussion going about adding a "Vesa bus".
> Is this the "Vesa local bus" that current 486 machines are 
> equipped with? If so, I thought that this bus was more or less
> exactly the 486 bus interface. Therefore, adding somthing compatible
> with this on another processor would be hard.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.....
> 
> 					Roger.
> 
I don't know this, but I read somewhere a couple of weeks ago (sorry I don't
know where) that VESA local bus is going to end. Why?: Dell computers
was one of the originators of this standard, but recently they seem to 
have announced to only support PCI (an intel bus for x86). Well how does
this affect VESA Local bus? Dell sent a letter to other VESA local bus 
manufacturers, claiming that by using VESA local bus technology they
infringe on DELL patents. This way Dell wants VESA local bus to die a 
soft death. Maybe they're pushed by Intel in doing this, wasn't Intel
the corporation who started all the legal wars recently?? 
I'm sorry I don't remember where I read this (I read too much lately), but
can anyone confirm this, if so it might be not so smart to use the VESA bus
on this project.

Greetings, still typing this on Linux for the x86 (snif snif)

Ronald Schalk

 ********************************************************************
 * ing. Ronald Schalk                                               *
 * sectie COOS                                                      *
 * Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening (UCI)                 *
 * Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (KUN)                           *
 * e-mail : R.Schalk@uci.kun.nl   snailmail: Geert Grooteplein 41   *
 * tel.   : +31 80 617993                    6525 GA Nijmegen       *
 * fax   :  +31 80 617979                    Nederland              *
 ********************************************************************
 

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  2 08:25:08 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:00:09 +0200
Message-Id: <9307021200.AA05148@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: What do we *really* want ?
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Dear Mipsers !

First, this is nothing personally. Second, I do believe
that everything we have discussed here was substantial,
and technically important.

But: I think it's time to lay back, cool down and think
about WHAT DO WE REALLY WANT ?

Remember, the whole thing started as an ISA card with
CPU, some RAM and a way to use the rest of a PC as
I/O subsystem, right ?

Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.

All I want is that we don't come into that well-known
techno-junk-two-week-loop-and-never-ending-story.
Probably you'll know this:

Kill the engineer to finish the design !

Unfortunally, we are about 30 engineers...
I don't like to kill anyone and certainly not 30 people !

So please let us start from the beginning.

Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:

* A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
  They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
  If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.

* Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
  those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
  right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
  the good old x9 modules.
  I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.

* Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.

* Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
  two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
  code.
  Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
  One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
  A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
  in case we don't have a parallel port.

* Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
  cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
  and the printer port is ready.

* SCSI. This is a *must*.
  I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

* IDE. This is an *option*.
  We do not really need it, although it would make the
  complete machine cheaper.

* Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
  "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

* Real time clock. This is a *must* too.

* Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

* Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.

* Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.

* Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

* ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
  Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

Ok, my idea is the following: We design the complete
machine, preferably without any video stuff. I could imagine
that we provide a simple dma channel for monochrome video
with a resolution and timing which a standard VGA monitor
can handle. But even this is not really necessary.
And we provide exactly one ISA slot for an off-the-shelf
VGA card. No provisions for dma, bus master stuff, no
8/16 bit detection and all that. That ISA slot must provide
all signals necessary for controlling a VGA card and
nothing else.

This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
X11-driver nor do we have the trouble with timings which
most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.

Yes, I know, it would be slower. The ray tracing guy
(sorry, I've forgotten your name) will kill me, but:
Please, go ahead and buy a SGI Indigo. We will never ever
reach the graphic performance of such a machine, not
with a 75MHz R4400 and not with tons of off-the-shelf
pseudo-intelligent video-controller stuff.

A nice story about mips's and "intelligent" video:
When Mips Inc. introduced the Magnum 4000 workstation
last year (I have one of these rare things), they
thought about using a SPEA video card with an i860
on-board. After some benchmarking with this and some
dumb cards they have thrown out the i860. Letting the
R4000 doing video itself was faster than telling the
i860 what it should do. Believe it or not...

I'll summarize:

* 40 MHz 3051E/3081E, perhaps R4K2.
* 16 standard SIMM slots for memory sizes
  from 8 Meg (with 1Mx9 modules) to 64 Meg (4Mx9 modules).
* 2 serial ports.
* One parallel port or one extra serial port.
* SCSI controller
* Ethernet controller
* Keyboard controller
* Realtime clock
* No video, monochrome video if people mind.
* One ISA slot for a VGA card of your choice.
STOP. Nothing else.

You're missing something ? Well, you still have
your old Intel box. Get a coax cable and connect
it with your new Mips box !

Hmm. I'm looking forward for your bombs :-)

Bye,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de  Ukn Jul  2 08:55:24 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:37:48 +0200
Message-Id: <9307021237.AA05243@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA05243; Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:37:48 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler [was: Bootstrapping [was: IDT 3730...]]
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Hi there !

> Using gcc+binutils to build a cross compiler and a tweeked version
> of spim, we could headstart things like porting libc.
> 
> As we approch final specs more hardware could be emulated by
> spim. I might have limited access to a mips machine, so I'll
> start setting up a cross compiler.

Quoted from the various GCC-Readme's:

> It is possible to use gcc on a mips as a crosscompiler for
> whatever, but is *NOT* possible to build a compiler for
> target=mips on anything else but a mips.

This was at least true for gcc-2.3.1 which we use as
a 68k crosscompiler on our Mips's. I don't know if things
have changed...

That might lead us into trouble. Who has a Mips except me ?

Andy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
c/o Andreas Busse
Neustrasse 9-12
D-5481 Waldorf
Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
From tthorn@daimi.aau.dk  Ukn Jul  2 09:05:36 1993
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  (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for riscy@pyramid.com); Fri, 2 Jul 1993 15:03:05 +0200
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 15:03:05 +0200
From: Tommy Thorn <tthorn@daimi.aau.dk>
Message-Id: <199307021303.AA27783@avignon.daimi.aau.dk>
To: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler
References: <9307021237.AA05243@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Reply-To: Tommy.Thorn@daimi.aau.dk
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Andreas Busse writes:
 > 
 > Quoted from the various GCC-Readme's:
 > 
 > > It is possible to use gcc on a mips as a crosscompiler for
 > > whatever, but is *NOT* possible to build a compiler for
 > > target=mips on anything else but a mips.

Partially true.

 > This was at least true for gcc-2.3.1 which we use as
 > a 68k crosscompiler on our Mips's. I don't know if things
 > have changed...

I think the real problem is generating object files in the correct
format. This is not as big a problem for us.

 > That might lead us into trouble. Who has a Mips except me ?
 > 
 > Andy

I've just got access to a decstation, and I'm trying to find
out how much is missing before a crosscompilation enviroment is
a reality.

So far I've build a C compiler running on a HP snake generating
Mips assembler. My hope is to be able to make all tools for
a mips simulation enviroment availble on Linux.

/Tommy Thorn

 
From ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl  Ukn Jul  2 09:12:40 1993
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From: ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl (Ronald Schalk)
Message-Id: <9307021306.AA02287@csunix.urc.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
To: riscy@pyramid.com (project riscy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 15:06:29 +0200 (CET)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 6346      
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X-Status: 

> Dear Mipsers !
> 
> But: I think it's time to lay back, cool down and think
> about WHAT DO WE REALLY WANT ?

I can't agree more
> 
> Remember, the whole thing started as an ISA card with
> CPU, some RAM and a way to use the rest of a PC as
> I/O subsystem, right ?

That's still what I prefer, just a card that pops in my pc.
> 
> Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
> with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
> ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
> That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.
> 
> Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:
> 
> * A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
>   They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
>   If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.
I agree
> 
> * Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>   those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>   right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>   the good old x9 modules.
>   I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.
OK

> * Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.
Disagree, if it's a card in the pc then hook up a cable from pc's serial
port to card's serial port and voila you've got a terminal.

> * Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
>   two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
>   code.
>   Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
>   One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
>   A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
>   in case we don't have a parallel port.
Yep, see above
> * Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
>   cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
>   and the printer port is ready.
> * SCSI. This is a *must*.
>   I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...
> * IDE. This is an *option*.
>   We do not really need it, although it would make the
>   complete machine cheaper.
> * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.
> * Real time clock. This is a *must* too.
In general YES

> 
> * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

OK I did laugh, you seem to contradict yourself: you regard SCSI&Ethernet as
an important thing and video not? Nowadays my picture of a workstation is
running xwindows with a big monitor  (Well at *LEAST* 1024*768 >70Hz) It
seems that video keeps this group active. :-)

> 
> * Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.
I keep laughing (well smiling actually), but I've got a color monitor, so
I want colors.
> 
> * Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.
Ok, it's an option. But VERY high on my wish list.
> 
> * Sound I/O. This is an *option*.
OK
> 
> * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?
> 
> Ok, my idea is the following: We design the complete
> machine, preferably without any video stuff. I could imagine
> that we provide a simple dma channel for monochrome video
> with a resolution and timing which a standard VGA monitor
> can handle. But even this is not really necessary.
> And we provide exactly one ISA slot for an off-the-shelf
> VGA card. No provisions for dma, bus master stuff, no
> 8/16 bit detection and all that. That ISA slot must provide
> all signals necessary for controlling a VGA card and
> nothing else.

Decent performance is the issue, standard off the shelf (==cheap vga) 
doesn't stack up in performance against workstation performance, and
I'm certainly not comparing against top of the line!

> 
> This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
> X11-driver nor do we have the trouble with timings which
> most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.
>
It's been said before, some people like writing device drivers.
 
> Yes, I know, it would be slower. The ray tracing guy
> (sorry, I've forgotten your name) will kill me, but:
> Please, go ahead and buy a SGI Indigo. We will never ever
> reach the graphic performance of such a machine, not
> with a 75MHz R4400 and not with tons of off-the-shelf
> pseudo-intelligent video-controller stuff.
>
This is not what we (I guess) want: we want a reasonable performance for
a reasonable price.

 
> A nice story about mips's and "intelligent" video:
> When Mips Inc. introduced the Magnum 4000 workstation
> last year (I have one of these rare things), they
> thought about using a SPEA video card with an i860
> on-board. After some benchmarking with this and some
> dumb cards they have thrown out the i860. Letting the
> R4000 doing video itself was faster than telling the
> i860 what it should do. Believe it or not...
>
I believe it, the R4K is *EXTREMELY* brute force.
 
> I'll summarize:
> 
> * 40 MHz 3051E/3081E, perhaps R4K2.
> * 16 standard SIMM slots for memory sizes
>   from 8 Meg (with 1Mx9 modules) to 64 Meg (4Mx9 modules).
> * 2 serial ports.
> * One parallel port or one extra serial port.
> * SCSI controller
> * Ethernet controller
> * Keyboard controller
> * Realtime clock
> * No video, monochrome video if people mind.
> * One ISA slot for a VGA card of your choice.
> STOP. Nothing else.

Well video is still important to me.

> 
> You're missing something ? Well, you still have
> your old Intel box. Get a coax cable and connect
> it with your new Mips box !
> 
> Hmm. I'm looking forward for your bombs :-)

Ok this was a soft bomb :-)

> Bye,
> Andy
> Waldorf Electronics GmbH, R&D Department
> c/o Andreas Busse
> Neustrasse 9-12
> D-5481 Waldorf
> Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
> Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
> e-mail: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de

Greetings
Ronald Schalk

 ********************************************************************
 * ing. Ronald Schalk                                               *
 * sectie COOS                                                      *
 * Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening (UCI)                 *
 * Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (KUN)                           *
 * e-mail : R.Schalk@uci.kun.nl   snailmail: Geert Grooteplein 41   *
 * tel.   : +31 80 617993                    6525 GA Nijmegen       *
 * fax   :  +31 80 617979                    Nederland              *
 ********************************************************************
 

 
From arj@cam-orl.co.uk  Ukn Jul  2 09:23:59 1993
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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:20 BST
From: arj@cam-orl.co.uk (Andy Jackson)
To: Tommy.Thorn@daimi.aau.dk, andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Tommy Thorn writes:
> I've just got access to a decstation, and I'm trying to find
> out how much is missing before a crosscompilation enviroment is
> a reality.
I seem to recall that DEC changed the endian-ness of the MIPS on the
decstations, so as to be more compatible with VAXes. If so, the tools
will not be compatible with the 'real' MIPs tools.

		Andy..

 
From hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  Ukn Jul  2 09:37:48 1993
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From: Peter Holzer <hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307021333.AA03671@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 15:33:38 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <9307021200.AA05148@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 2, 93 2:00 pm
Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

You (Andreas Busse) wrote:

[Lots of stuff I agree with]
> 
> * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

For me this is an option. I'd like to have ethernet, but I don't need
it on board. You can put ethernet on the I/O bus, since it doesn't need
high bandwidth.

> * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.
> 
> * Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.
> 
> * Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.

Fast graphics is a must for me. It is one of the reasons why I'd buy
such a thing. I think that an onboard dumb frame buffer is the best
solution. Using a conventional ISA VGA card will be slower (probably
even with accelerator), and VESA local bus or some other interface for
high performance graphics cards will be difficult. I think we should
put our brains into a clean design, not into workarounds for intel
braindamage.

> * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

I think we need some kind of I/O bus. ISA is nice for people who
already have ISA cards or prefer to buy hardware instead of designing
it. A simple proprietary bus may be better for the hardware gurus (and
chaeper). I am not sure what I would prefer, but I am leaning more
towards the ISA bus. I would keep the number of slots small, however
(max. 3). 

> This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
> X11-driver

But this will be the most fun.

> nor do we have the trouble with timings which
> most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.

This could be a problem. But I need a new monitor anyway :-)

	hp

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |

 
From hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  Ukn Jul  2 09:40:01 1993
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From: Peter Holzer <hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307021336.AA03707@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler [was: Bootstrapping [was: IDT 3730...]]
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 15:36:55 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <9307021237.AA05243@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 2, 93 2:37 pm
Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

You (Andreas Busse) wrote:
> Quoted from the various GCC-Readme's:
> 
> > It is possible to use gcc on a mips as a crosscompiler for
> > whatever, but is *NOT* possible to build a compiler for
> > target=mips on anything else but a mips.

I don't understand why. Gas exists for MIPS, ld should not be a
problem, there are no strange data types ...

> That might lead us into trouble. Who has a Mips except me ?

me (or rather our institute).

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |

 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  2 09:45:04 1993
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Message-Id: <5339226@prancer.Dartmouth.EDU>
Date: 02 Jul 93 09:42:58 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: IDT Ad
To: riscy@pyramid.com (project riscy)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On page 47 of the June 28th Electronic Engineering Times, there's an ad from
IDT regarding the 3051 family.  The most interesting part:

"Call our toll-free hotline today to get a copy of the RISC Data Book,
Applications Guide, a free RISController T-shirt, and ordering information on
IDT's RISController Evaluation Kits."

Of those, I find the Data Book and Applications Guide most useful. :-)

800 345 7015
408 492 8674 (fax)
ask for kit code 5081

 
From wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl  Ukn Jul  2 10:04:32 1993
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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 16:02:22 +0200
From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307021402.AA07551@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: "what we really need".
Status: RO
X-Status: 




> * Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
>   two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
>   code.

I am not objecting to 2 serial ports in general, but there is no
reason at all to do code downloads on a different serial line.

The boot rom should boot the processor and go into an endless loop
providing a prompt, and reading commands. The three essential
commands are "peek %d", "poke %d %d" and "go %d". 

Downloading code goes through the poke command.

>   Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
>   One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
>   A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
>   in case we don't have a parallel port.

I think that you are right here: two ports is not a bad investment 
after all. The first goes to a mouse, the second is quickly used, and
more are optional. However if a 4 port chip is available, I wouldn't
object .....

					Roger.



 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  2 10:06:59 1993
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From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307021404.AA23217@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Crosscompiler
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> From arj@cam-orl.co.uk Fri Jul  2 08:23:04 1993
> Return-Path: <arj@cam-orl.co.uk>
> Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by ubitrex.mb.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1)
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> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:20 BST
 
> Tommy Thorn writes:
> > I've just got access to a decstation, and I'm trying to find
> > out how much is missing before a crosscompilation enviroment is
> > a reality.
> I seem to recall that DEC changed the endian-ness of the MIPS on the
> decstations, so as to be more compatible with VAXes. If so, the tools
> will not be compatible with the 'real' MIPs tools.
> 
> 		Andy..
> 


The MIPS and SGI boxes configured the MIPs chips for big-endian.  DEC
configured the MIPs chips in the DECstations as little-endian, to match
the VAX.  Which also matches the PDP-11.  It so happens that Intel made 
the 8085/8088/80386 little-endian as well.  So linux is little-endian,
and we may want to make linux/MIPs little-endian, to reduce portability
problems (file system structures, etc).

Making linux/MIPs little-endian makes cross-compiling from SGI an
interesting configuration problem, but presumably no more difficult 
then generating linux/386 code from a SunOS/SPARC environment.

Try this:

/*
 * end.c
 *
 *  Test a target processor and compiler 
 *  for size of integers and endian orientation.
 */

#include <stdio.h>

main()
{
        long int test_long;
        int test_int;
        char test_8;
        char *ptr_8;

        test_long = 0x01020304;
        test_int = 0x01020304;
        printf("%d bit native integers.\n", sizeof(int) * 8);
        if (sizeof(long) == 4) {
                ptr_8 = &test_long;
        }
        if (sizeof(int) == 4) {
                ptr_8 = &test_int;
        }
        test_8 = *ptr_8;
        printf("This is a %s-endian machine.\n", test_8 == 1? "big" : "little");
}
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From tor@tss.no  Ukn Jul  2 10:20:26 1993
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From: tor@tss.no (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 16:13:32 +0200
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: MIPS 4000 cheaply!!!!
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Jul 1, 10:34pm, R. Schalk wrote:
> Subject: MIPS 4000 cheaply!!!!
[you've already read it]

I would love to have a R4 (I could keep the box longer before it gets
obsolete), but it's up to those who will actually do the board design
(and that's not me) to decide if it is too much trouble to handle 64 bit
or not.

Tor	(tor@tss.no, on vacation mid-July to mid-August, not reading mails)


 
From rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET  Ukn Jul  2 10:25:21 1993
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From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.UU.NET (6692)
Message-Id: <9307021348.AA28192@rei.com>
Subject: video
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 08:48:21 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307020821.AA26341@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 2, 93 03:21:32 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 990       
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> if you want 150% performance (that is I estimate the "help" of the graphics
> coprocessor at half the power of the main CPU.), why not invest in a 
> processor that is 1.5 times faster? In this case the main processor will also 
> run your applications 1.5 times faster.
> 
> 					Roger.
> 
If it reduces the parts count by one package, let the CPU do the
graphics.  If the memory bandwidth is going to be saturated anyway,
the memory cycles spent setting up and communicating with the
graphics coprocessor will probably swamp out the benefit of having
it.  The hardware design and the software design will be simpler
(read, "more likely to work in your lifetime") without it.
-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
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Subject: Wish list review and analysis
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:59:41 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307021321.AA28035@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 2, 93 08:21:52 am
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Andy said:

> But: I think it's time to lay back, cool down and think
> about WHAT DO WE REALLY WANT ?
> 
Hear, Hear!

> Remember, the whole thing started as an ISA card with
> CPU, some RAM and a way to use the rest of a PC as
> I/O subsystem, right ?
> 
> Now we're on the way to build a complete workstation
> with lots of features, on-board intelligent video, scsi,
> ethernet, serial, sound and whatever.
> That all sounds good, but I doubt that all this is really necessary.
> 
But by the time you reach the end of your list you've not only
specified a complete workstation, you're calling it that yourself.

> Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:
> 
> * A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
>   They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
>   If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.
 
The only information I have on the R4200 is the announcement from
Byte Magazine that was shared, and that sounded like complete
Vaporware (tm) to me.  Impossible power specs and a promised
delivery no sooner than six months in the future?  I wouldn't hold
my breath waiting for that one.  On the other hand, I _would_ hold
my breath waiting for the IDT3730.  That one would reduce the parts
count and increase the probability of getting it working.

> * Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>   those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>   right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>   the good old x9 modules.
>   I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.

I don't like to give as much board real estate to this as Neill wants,
but you definitely need enough sockets to get the interleave that Neill
wants.  32M (8 pieces, 4M X 9 bits) would probably satisfy me, so as
long as I can leave some sockets empty I won't complain.

> * Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.
 
This _should_ be pretty easy, but I confess I haven't investigated.
I would expect I could salvage the pre-programmed 8041 from a dead
286PC motherboard and hang it on the 8-bit bus of the IDT3730 with
no more glue than two or three terms from a 22V10.  I'll see if I
can find out.

> * Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
>   two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
>   code.
>   Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
>   One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
>   A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
>   in case we don't have a parallel port.

Agree, but I'd really be disappointed if I couldn't make one of
those ports run at least 38400Kbits/sec.  My primary network
connection would be a V.32bis/V.42bis modem, as this thing would
reside in my spare bedroom.

> * Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
>   cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
>   and the printer port is ready.

Agree.  When the board real estate gets tight this connector gets
jettisoned.

> * SCSI. This is a *must*.
>   I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

Here is where you start calling it a workstation.  Actually, I
agree.  SCSI is the _most_ important I/O to me.

> * IDE. This is an *option*.
>   We do not really need it, although it would make the
>   complete machine cheaper.

If you're buying a new disk drive, the difference is negligible.  I
don't have any IDE disk drives lying around, maybe others do.  If
you're buying a tape drive or a CD-ROM drive SCSI is certainly
preferable, and I don't think we have room for the connectors for
both.

> * Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>   "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

I'd like to have it, but I could live without.  As I said, my
primary network connection would be a modem.

> * Real time clock. This is a *must* too.

This should be cheap enough and small enough that it goes without
saying.  A computer that doesn't know what day it is is pretty
stupid.  I said that over twenty years ago.

> * Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.
> 
> * Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.
> 
> * Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.

A dumb frame buffer on board, 8 bits per pixel, with no multiple
scan frequencies (pick one when you buy the crystal).  That's high
enough on enough people's wish lists to justify.  The parts count
and board space don't seem too much to me.

> * Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

I don't care at all.  I wouldn't give much board space to it.

> * ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>   Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?
> 
> Ok, my idea is the following: We design the complete
> machine, preferably without any video stuff. I could imagine
> that we provide a simple dma channel for monochrome video
> with a resolution and timing which a standard VGA monitor
> can handle. But even this is not really necessary.
> And we provide exactly one ISA slot for an off-the-shelf
> VGA card. No provisions for dma, bus master stuff, no
> 8/16 bit detection and all that. That ISA slot must provide
> all signals necessary for controlling a VGA card and
> nothing else.

The no DMA, no bus master, no 8/16 bit detection are good ideas
worth discussing.  The original PC/XT bus was simple enough you
could probably implement it with a couple of 22V10's and the
IDT3730.  In that case, it would make more sense than an ad hoc
expansion bus that has no market.

Of course, I'm only guessing about the capabilities of the IDT3730.
Sure would like to have a data book for that!

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.

 
From tim@ubitrex.mb.ca  Ukn Jul  2 11:53:47 1993
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From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307021551.AA23380@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Vesa bus.
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> From ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl Fri Jul  2 04:46:52 1993
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 11:41:42 +0200 (CET)

> > Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 22:00:17 +0200
> > From: wolff@zen.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
 
> > 
> > There seems to be a discussion going about adding a "Vesa bus".
> > Is this the "Vesa local bus" that current 486 machines are 
> > equipped with? If so, I thought that this bus was more or less
> > exactly the 486 bus interface. Therefore, adding somthing compatible
> > with this on another processor would be hard.
> > 
> > Please correct me if I am wrong.....
> > 
> > 					Roger.
> > 
> I don't know this, but I read somewhere a couple of weeks ago (sorry I don't
> know where) that VESA local bus is going to end. Why?: Dell computers
> was one of the originators of this standard, but recently they seem to 
> have announced to only support PCI (an intel bus for x86). Well how does
> this affect VESA Local bus? Dell sent a letter to other VESA local bus 
> manufacturers, claiming that by using VESA local bus technology they
> infringe on DELL patents. This way Dell wants VESA local bus to die a 
> soft death. Maybe they're pushed by Intel in doing this, wasn't Intel
> the corporation who started all the legal wars recently?? 
> I'm sorry I don't remember where I read this (I read too much lately), but
> can anyone confirm this, if so it might be not so smart to use the VESA bus
> on this project.
> 
> 
> Ronald Schalk

The PC industry silicone providers are definitely moving to PCI and away from 
VESA.  The reasons are:
 - processor independence.  Intel is selling/licensing PCI to everyone.
   They want you to use PCI for P5/Pentium.  DEC wants you to use PCI for
   Alpha (so they can leverage the silicone that will be developed to
   PCI).  MIPS wants you to use PCI for some decendent of r4400pc.  VESA
   is indeed very 386/486 specific.
 - bus features.  VESA has little IRQ/DMA support.  It's designed for video
   interfaces, not i/o.  Only one interrupt level is on the Local Bus.
   PCI is designed as an interface bus.
 - bus bandwidth.  VESA is 32 bits wide (max).  Some of the above processors
   use 64 bit data buses.  PCI supports 64 bit transfers.  This is (basically)
   what gives PCI twice the bandwidth of VESA.  (~200 MBytes/sec vs. ~ 100).

'93 was the year of VESA because it's:
 - available now.
 - does give full processor bandwidth access to video.  (Video performance.)
 - allows the planar video memory configuration to '386 designs. (Video 
   performance again.)
 - relatively cheap.  (Profit performance.)

Dell wanted to claim a licensing fee from VESA for their connector.  (EETimes)
That kind of legal hassle will indeed help PCI.  Both PCI and VESA ask fees for
copies of their spec's.

I don't think this project should use either bus.  Put a simple frame buffer
on the board, and put an (some?) ISA slot(s?) on.  The licensing issues
are likely to slow such a decentralized project down too much.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca

 
From bob@amscons.amscons.com  Ukn Jul  2 14:26:48 1993
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From: bob@amscons.amscons.com (Bob Amstadt)
Subject: Re: SCSI chips, specifically NCR53c{,f}9x family
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 11:09:32 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307021736.AA00596@nagina.cs.Colorado.EDU> from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 2, 93 11:36:24 am
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> Ok, I called NCR's SCSI division, got some literature on the 53c90 
> series, saw that the 53c90 looks like what we wanted, and talked to
> the local NCR distributor, Electrodyne (303)-695-903 for pricing
> information.

Two years ago, I used the 53C94 on a 68k-based controller board.
I never really pushed it to the limit, but it is a good part.
It does however require an external DMA controller (or processor 
intervention).

> The host/DMA interface is 8 bits wide, so it's best on an 
> 8 bit bus of the 3730.

It actually has 4 different modes:

    1. Single 8-bit bus
    2. Single bus, 8-bit to host, 16-bit to DMA
    3. 8-bit host bus (multiplexed address and data), separate 16-bit DMA bus
       with byte control.
    4. 8-bit host bus (separate address and data), separate 16-bit DMA bus
       without byte control.
-- 
Bob Amstadt
bob@amscons.com

 
From erik@trashcan.hacktic.nl  Ukn Jul  2 16:14:20 1993
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From: erik@trashcan.hacktic.nl (Erik Bos)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: video (and more)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 15:05:00 +0611
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>> If we just put a connector on the board for vesa then we can have
>> an upgradable video card while concentrating on the important stuff
>> like the cpu, memory, dma etc.
>
>This is another option we should seriously consider. It would also
>solve the ISA vs. proprietary I/O bus controversy.
I would also suggest a VESA slot on the board, an onboard chipset/framebuffer
might be as fast as the current ET4000, S3, or P9000 videochipsets BUT:
                                                   
1. Does everyone *needs* this accelerated high speed video ?
   
2. Did anybody ever think about 'upgrading' this mainboard ?

By choosing for a VESA slot everyone can decide for himself if he wants
to spend $25 for a cheap VGA-clone or $250 for a highend accelerated board.

--
Erik Bos (erik@trashcan.hacktic.nl)

 
From toz!cyberman@acsu.buffalo.edu  Ukn Jul  2 16:25:11 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: MIPS R3k simulators
From: toz!cyberman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Cyberman)
Comments:             
Message-Id: <HZs36B4w165w@toz.buffalo.ny.us>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 93 15:50:52 EDT
Organization: The Tower of Zot - (716)8338-616
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Uh anyone out there know of an R3k simulator we can run on a PC?

and to the person who is investigating the IDT 3730, when you get the 
data sheets, mind scanning them and sending them as a GIF or "FAX" or EPS 
file?

As for the display buffer, the question is what price will there be for 
using a coprocessor based chipset for display?  IE COST.  The indication 
is that it may be SIGNIFICANTLY more.  The quantities we are talking 
about may be < 50 chipsets thus the cost may be rather high.  Besides SMT 
will be a pain to work with. (grin)

I like the idea of using the IDT 3051 etc simply because  they are PLCC 
packages and can be socketed for later upgrade.  However if the R4k is as 
cheap as  an R3-3051 clearly that would be a better move.

Cyberman

 "Everything is vanity ..."
"Even a fool looks wise if he keeps his mouth shut"
"A man to his own, is a person left to his own devices"
"Bewary of thinking you are always right, Hitler did"

Cyberman - this is mysig 
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <explained.h>
main(int argc, char **argv) { FILE *mess; mess = fopen("life.doc"r); 

 
From adyer@zarniwoop  Ukn Jul  2 21:43:56 1993
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From: adyer@zarniwoop (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: IDT7370
Cc: caret@pyramid.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I still like the idea of using the LSI Logic family instead of the
IDT.  For a project like this they have some advantages - mostly that
the DRAM and bus sizing stuff is on-board.  They have three models
that I have info on - 33000 which is a MIPS 3000 core plus their
interface logic, 33020 which has the same mips core + glue logic +
plus a bit-blit engine and RAMDAC interface (for xterms on a chip),
and finally the 33050 which is a 33000 with MIPS FPU.  I believe they
all have a 4k/1k i/d cache and come in PGA packaging. (No lousy 84PLCC
sockets!)

As for I/O busses - the ISA bus IS a simple 8-bit bus.  I don't see
what all the whining is about.  VESA is kinda nasty and not well
defined.  If we are going to invest in a high speed bus, make it a
processor local bus, where some speed can be used not wasted
generating a bunch of other control signals.

As for FPGAs, I believe AMD gives away their PALASM s/w to program
MACH devices, I also have s/w for the Intel IFX780 and Xilinx which is
NOT free at work.  For a project like this FPGAs might have some
advantages - reconfiguration, one physical part to perform several
different tasks, real estate reduction, speed, and perhaps cost if the
s/w is not too expensive.

 
From a080700@hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk  Ukn Jul  2 22:14:56 1993
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From: Stephen S M Wong <a080700@hp750a.csc.cuhk.hk>
Subject: Re: What do we *really* want ?
To: andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (Andreas Busse)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 10:09:47 HKT
Cc: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: <9307021200.AA05148@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 2, 93 2:00 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30]
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Risciers,

>Things we *do* need and things we *might* need:
>
>* A CPU. This is a *must* :-). Should be a 3051E, better 3081E. 
>  They are pin compatible, so the choice is no problem at all.
>  If the R4K2 is in fact that cheap: YES ! We should use it.

Okay 3081E should be a good enough chip for me, and R4.2K is
even better, but have to wait.

>* Ram. The more, the better. Someone suggested to use
>  those 36bit by 512k or 2M modules. That saves boardspace,
>  right, but they are nearly twice that expensive than four of
>  the good old x9 modules.
>  I would say, 64 Meg on board is *definitly* enough.

I want no more than 32MB at the moment, but who knows what the
typical setting 1/2 year (or 1 year) latter!

>* Keyboard controller. This is a *must*.

It should be easy to use 8041/8051 AT compatible keyboard, use it.

>* Serial I/O. For starting the Linux port, we will need
>  two ports; one for a dumb ascii terminal, one for downloading
>  code.
>  Two ports are still sufficient for a workstation:
>  One for the mouse, the other one for the modem.
>  A third port is an *option*. It could be used for a printer
>  in case we don't have a parallel port.

Agree.

>* Parallel port. This is also an *option*. It might be
>  cheaper than a third serial line. Take a LS374 and one GAL
>  and the printer port is ready.

But I prefer a parallel port to a third serial port.

>* SCSI. This is a *must*.
>  I can't imagine a workstation without SCSI...

Why?  (Refer to IDE part)

>* IDE. This is an *option*.
>  We do not really need it, although it would make the
>  complete machine cheaper.

I can't understand why SCSI is preferred to IDE, at least not very
definitely!  I know that one can connect a lot of different stuffs
on the SCSI bus, but other than hard disk and tape drive, what are
the items that will be of interest to majority people (or customers)?
I'm now owning a total of 500MB IDE hard disk space, and I will be
very happy if I can use it on the MIPS system.

Personally, I don't object to on-board SCSI, but just would like
to be fair, why SCSI is a must, but IDE is an option.  For the same
analogy to dumb frame buffer, SCSI hard disk does NOT necessary
outperform IDE one, the intelligence of SCSI may not be justifiable,
the bottle neck may be on the spinning speed of the disk, and nothing
to do with interface.  Moreover, someone told me that there would be
1GB IDE hard disk for sale recently, and this fact will once again
lead us to rethink whether IDE is a cheaper (and still usable)
interface.

>* Ethernet. This is a *must*. We can't call the thing
>  "workstation" if it doesn't have an ethernet port.

You haven't mention whether your Ethernet is on-board or not.  If you
say Ethernet is a must for a workstation, I agree.  But I can't find
a reason why Ethernet has to be on board, I prefer Ethernet to be on
external I/O bus.

>* Real time clock. This is a *must* too.

Okay, if we can find a RTC chip with some NVRAM, it will be fine to
have it.

>* Video on board. Don't laugh, but this is an *option*.

I agree, but I think the majority of people (or customers) would attach
a display monitor to the system (rather than using a terminal), and
since we agree to stick a keyboard controller on board, it will be more
complete to have some preliminary video stuff on board.

>* Color graphics on board. I'd say, this is even more an *option*.

What?  You like monochrome video, what's the cost difference in
implementing color vs monochrom?  Will it be actually harder to find
parts to do monochrom nowadays?

>* Intelligent video on board. This is definitly an *option*.
>
>* Sound I/O. This is an *option*.

Okay, it's a nice to have option.

>* ISA Bus... I would say: we *do* need exactly one slot.
>  Every slot more is an *option*. Why ?

If we agree to do ISA bus, than a lot of the above will become
options.  But if ISA cards are noway in the new system, than I
think a lot of people (at least me) will 2nd thought before
commiting a few hundred US$ to buy a board, since I have to
make it very sure what I want is all on board!  ISA bus is part
of success factors in PC and so did slots in Apple ][.  The
wealth of different expansion cards is an essential buffer to
let different customers to tailor the system to fit their
needs.  And I think this rule still holds at the moment.

>This way we don't have the trouble to write our own
>X11-driver nor do we have the trouble with timings which
>most monitors can handle but exactly the one *you* have not.

I doubt, since the architecture difference between Intel and MIPS
processors is significant, and we'll likely to deal with an I/O
processor (3041?) or 3730, the X11 driver may have to be rewrite,
although not wholely, anyway.

--
*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*
v Stephen Wong Siu-ming    v internet: stephenwong@cuhk.hk  v
^ Computer Services Center ^ bitnet  : a080700@cucsc.bitnet ^
* Chinese University of    * phone   : (852) 609-8904       *
v Hong Kong                v fax     : (852) 603-5001       v
*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*

 
From mailserv-owner@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 12 14:59:22 1993
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	id AA04813; Mon, 12 Jul 93 14:59:22 EDT
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	id AA23047; Mon, 12 Jul 93 11:58:57 -0700
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 11:58:57 -0700
Message-Id: <9307121858.AA23047@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu
From: mailserv@pyramid.com
Subject: Welcome to riscy
Reply-To: mailserv@pyramid.com

Welcome to the riscy mailing list!

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, send the
following command in email to "mailserv@pyramid.com":

    unsubscribe riscy riscy@sunsite.unc.edu

Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in
case you don't already have it:


The 'riscy' mailing list is for the discussion of hardware related
issues for the design of a MIPS R3000 motherboard.

Most of the design is to be covered by a Hardware Public License
agreement constructed to allow contributors to design parts of
the system for free.  A major portion of the cost of producing
hardware at a reasonable retail price is the initial Research and
Development cost.  Since the contributors are doing this for no
return, the company producing the boards can do so for much less
profit that otherwise possible.  This means a much lower cost to
the end user.

The present (very rough) specification for this board is:

	*  IDT 79R3081E-40		40 MHz MIPS R3000 CPU
	*  64MB DRAM			IBM like SIMMs
	*  Frame buffer Video
	*  ISA bus
	*  SCSI controller
	*  Real-Time-Clock
	*  Non-Volatile RAM
	*  Keyboard controller
	*  Mini-AT sized motherboard

To complete a system with this motherboard, add:

	*  Case large enough for a Mini-AT sized motherboard
	*  Power supply (usually comes with the case)
	*  Memory (4 MB minimum, assuming software doesn't need more)
	*  Keyboard
	*  SCSI disk and tape drives (optional)
	*  If no SCSI, add disk controller and disk drives
	*  Floppy controller and drive (optional)
		(cheapest is probably an IDE controller, without IDE drives)
	*  If not using on board video, add ISA video card (VGA)
	*  Monitor
	*  Mouse (optional)
	*  Software

Current, very rough estimates figure that the board will cost around
us$800.  Prices will vary depending on the type of CPU used and
the actual details of the design.

There is currently plans to put together an FTP site to contain an
archive of the mailing list, details of the design as it is currently,
and eventually to contain the board's schematics and design details.

Enjoy!


BTW, please note that this project has nothing to do with Pyramid
Technology other than their support of the mailing list.  The design
does not infringe any Copyright or non-disclosure agreement, nor does
it compete with any Pyramid products.
 
From riscy-request@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 12 16:01:48 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307122000.AA03493@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: Alternative to the IDT 3730
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 13:00:28 PDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oEQXU-00039LC@zarniwoop.chi.il.us>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 9, 93 3:03 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
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> I would be wary of using Visual as a supplier.  They have already been
> through one bankruptcy, and I don't know if they are doing all that well
> in their current incarnation.  Also, Visual's main business is building
> X-window terminals, not selling chips.  I feel much more comfortable with
> an IDT chip.

From what I understand, IDT has a history of not finishing chips.  If we
go ahead with the 3730, IDT may decide that its going to take another year.
At least Visual have the chip now.

I called Visual and expressed your concern.  They glossed over the
bankruptcy issue, but they said that Toshiba manufacture the chips,
and would continue to do so if Visual went under again.

> If you want to use these chips, why don't you just copy their design for
> an X-window terminal and add on the other stuff?

That may certainly be an option.  Indeed, our board could easily be used
for an X-windows engine; just forget to add the mass-storage.

The rest of the issues are technical, and will be answered as soon as
I get the data sheets.  I expected them this morning.  The sales guy
says they are working on it.

> This 3000d sounds like a glorified address latch.

Yup, it does, doesn't it.


-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From riscy-request@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 12 18:17:22 1993
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	id AA17200; Mon, 12 Jul 93 17:10:03 -0500
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 17:10:03 -0500
From: kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com (Russell Kent)
Message-Id: <9307122210.AA17200@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Example of high-density, high-functionality combination
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

I saw this article in the July 5, 1993 Electronic Engineering Times (p.48)
and thought it might serve as an inspiration.  These guys and gals really
know how to pack a lot of function into a little package (3.9" x 3.9")
at a reasonable price!

Do you suppose they have any "lessons learned" that we could use?
Do you think they might be willing to share them with us?

There's a picture along with the article which shows:
   Intel 386SL
   another Intel part; same size as 386SL (black print)
   C&T part about 80% of the size as 386SL
   SMC part about 25% of the size of 386SL
   2 unreadable parts about 25% size of 386SL (foil labels)
   2 Valor parts; both rectangular, 1 about 25mm, other about 10mm
   Small rectangular IC about 10mm
   1 Lithium (?) nickle-sized battery
   2 radial caps; handful of S/M decoupling caps
   1 64-/96- pin backplane connector
   10-pin header strip
   64-pin header strip (maybe multiple connecters)
   10-/12- header strip/jumpers

It does not show the backside of the card :-(

My few comments are imbedded in square brackets with my initials [like
this. --rak]

Russell Kent
Texas Instruments                   rkent@lobby.ti.com   -or-
PO Box 655012  M/S 3624             kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com
Dallas, TX 75265                    TI-MSG: RAK9
Voice: (214) 917-2285               FAX: (214) 917-5112

------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------

Toronto - Megatel Computer Corp. has boosted the processing and graphics
performance of its embedded PC board while lowering the card's overall
power consumption.  The new PC/II+ is a 386SL-based card with on-board
local-bus Super VGA graphics.  It runs at 5 volts and consumes 6 watts.

Megatel has also reduced the size of its embedded board to 100x100
millimeters.  Despite its size, the board accomodates an Ethernet interface
through the use of an Intel 82595 single-chip controller.  This Ethernet
controller provides either 8- or 16-bit operation and supports Novell's
IPX/SPX protocols.

The 25-MHz processor can manage up to 16 Mbytes of interleaved DRAM,
reducing the need for a separate cache-memory subsystem. A Chips and
Technologies 65530 Super VGA controller supports 1 Mbyte of VRAM. The
PC/II+ also supplies on-board DOS in ROM and can handle up to a 2.25-Mbyte
solid-state disk using the Flash-File subsystem.

The card offers a number of basic microcomputer features, such as a SCSI
host adapter, floppy-disk controller, two RS-232 serial ports, one
high-spool [sic. "high-speed" perhaps? --rak] serial port and one parallel
port. A real-time clock and battery backup for the 16-bit ISA bus are also
provided.

The PC/II+ sells for $695 [US --rak] in hundreds and will be available in
beta-sampling quantities in the third quarter.  A developer's kit,
including a passive backplane, 2 Mbyte memory, an I/O board and associated
cabling and manuals costs $995.

Peter Cook, (416) 245-2953
------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------8<------
 
From riscy-request@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 12 19:03:00 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307122302.AA03451@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: MOM 3000i documentation
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 16:02:22 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: riscy-request@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

I have received part of the documentation from Visual.  This is for
the MOM 3000i.  They told me that this documentation is already
out-dated; they are fixing spelling errors, and the like, so don't
use this to design anything.

I beleive that it will do most of our stuff, but its not as clear
as with the 3730.

I will be calling them again tomorrow to get the other chip data.

A copy may ftp'ed from:

	bertha.pyramid.com:/pub/riscy/chips/rxi.ps.Z

This will be updated as new information becomes available.

Also, note that the bertha ftp server has some teathing problems;
just ignore the stuff about NASA.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 13 09:31:24 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Parts/prices
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 22:08:38 -0500 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1024      
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Just going through the riscy list messages, and came up with this parts/price 
list:

Chips						Price		Size
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3081-40 Mhz					$317 
3730+glue					$130
16 sim slots (sockets)      			$31.20          16*(.3"x4")
53c90/53c94 scsi parts...               	$17.60-$19.45   0.910"^2
FDC37c665 (floppy+2uarts+parallel+IDE+game)	$23.00
2000 hole mtb                   		$95     	12"x16"
1 MB vram                               	$60
1 TI tlc34076 RAMDAC                    	$32
1 NSC LM1882 Video sync generator       	$ 8
---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                $714.20

Not including connectors, production, rt clock, nvram,  roms/pals, 
keyboard controller etc.


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 13 09:32:46 1993
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 20:21:18 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307130121.AA27735@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Ethernet stuff
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> From: adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us (Andrew Dyer)

> Most people skip the DC-DC converter for the AUI supply and just use
> a fuse and maybe a diode.

Which explains why someone reported big-time ground loop problems
on a multi-floor net.

We really should do it properly.  DC-DC for the AUI is my vote.  
Digi-key lists a few - from US$10.00 to US$60.00 apiece.  (In
quantities of 10 or more.)  Wow. That's an expensive vote.  Tell 
me they're not that much...

There must be a cheaper alternative with Linear Tech, Maxim, NatSemi,
Motorola, and TI pumping out switching regulator chips.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 13 11:59:27 1993
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Subject: test
To: riscy@slipknot.eng.pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 8:57:35 PDT
From: pc@pyramid.com
Reply-To: pc@pyramid.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

just a test to debug a mail problem...

pc
-- 
      -m---------    Patrick Connor           Pyramid Technology   
    ---mmm-------    (408) 428-8819           3860 North 1st St.
  -----mmmmm-----    pc@pyramid.com -or-      San Jose, CA           
-------mmmmmmm---    uunet!pyramid!pc         95134              
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 13 19:28:47 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307132327.AA07099@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: MOM 3000d documentation - the other chip
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 16:27:29 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

I have received the documentation for the other chip in the MOM
chipset.  It can be had by ftp:

	bertha.pyramid.com:/pub/riscy/rxd.ps.Z

I'm sorry about the poor state of the ftp server.  I'm looking to
move the archive to sunsite, assuming I can get reasonable access
to place things there.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 14:27:59 1993
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Subject: VLSI VL82C113 (Keyboard Controller & RTC)
To: Riscy Mailing List <riscy@pyramid.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 18:46:27 BST
From: Derek Fawcus <df@eyrie.demon.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


  Here's the pricing on the VLSI VL82C113 and VL82C113A (Combined RTC,
Keyboard Controller, Refresh counter and ISA Address Buffers).

 Sorry about the delay but our supplier was somewhat confused by the
availability of this part.

  The problem was that the two parts above have been obsoleted, and may be
unavailable from the end of the year.  They have been replaced by a pin
compatible replacement (VL82C114), this is difficult to get at the moment
but will be readily available by the end of the year.

  This device ('114) is a replacement for the '113A with 50 extra bytes
of CMOS memory (giving 100 bytes plus the RTC data).  Other than that it
appears to be identical.

  The chips contains a read only version register, I assume that this will
allow the '113A and '114 to be distinguished.

  It therefor seems that if chosen, we could design for the '113A and just
replace it with the '114A when that is available in quantity.

Pricing is as follows:

Qty    1 - 24     25 - 99    100 -  ?

       9 UKP      8 UKP      7.53 UKP

Both the '113 and 113A have the same price, the '114 is expected to be the
same price when it's available.

	DF
-- 
Derek Fawcus (G7FVS)                                df@eyrie.demon.co.uk
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 15:31:22 1993
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Date: 15 Jul 93 15:27:57 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re:  SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

--- Andreas Busse wrote:
This is all more or less true. 3-chip x9 SIMMs have only few more chips than
x36 SIMMs. The discussion what SIMMs we should use had no technical reason,
just a practical. RAMs are going to be more expensive, so it would be
desirable for most of us to use the SIMMs we already *have*, and these are
1Mx9 and 4Mx9 SIMMs, with a few exceptions.
--- end of quoted material ---
I think it makes the most sense to design for what we *will be* able to buy,
not what we have now.  Building a "junk box" computer may be fun, but is a
whole different thing from designing and building a product.

SIMM "shape" is tending from the older x8 and x9 SIMMs to x32, x33, x36, and
x40 SIMMs.  Some of this is due to Wang Labs reaching out from the grave to
try to strangle other companies.  Some is due to benefits of the x32ish
shape.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 16:26:59 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307152020.AA23060@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:20:43 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <5471547@prancer.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Steven D. Ligett" at Jul 15, 93 03:27:57 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
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> --- Andreas Busse wrote:
> This is all more or less true. 3-chip x9 SIMMs have only few more chips than
> x36 SIMMs. The discussion what SIMMs we should use had no technical reason,
> just a practical. RAMs are going to be more expensive, so it would be
> desirable for most of us to use the SIMMs we already *have*, and these are
> 1Mx9 and 4Mx9 SIMMs, with a few exceptions.
> --- end of quoted material ---
> I think it makes the most sense to design for what we *will be* able to buy,
> not what we have now.  Building a "junk box" computer may be fun, but is a
You mean, buy the motherboard, let it sit in a closet until the following
summer when I can afford the memory?  Depending on how layout goes, it might
be good to have a daughtercard with (full-speed) simm sockets of x36 or x9,
depending on the card or some of each.  If we have enough VLSI chips for
the real work, board space may not be a problem, but beware also creeping
featurism and overflowing the board with all the connectors for the things
the wonder-chips will also do...

> SIMM "shape" is tending from the older x8 and x9 SIMMs to x32, x33, x36, and
> x40 SIMMs.  Some of this is due to Wang Labs reaching out from the grave to
> try to strangle other companies.  Some is due to benefits of the x32ish
> shape.
Hmmm...more expensive, and yet you need to replace it in larger hunks if/when
it goes bad.  Sounds superior to me...  /*sarcasm off*/

	Keith

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 16:48:07 1993
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From: Jerry Callen <jcallen@Think.COM>
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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 16:45:29 EDT
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Keith Rohrer's message of Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:20:43 -0600 (CDT) <9307152020.AA23060@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: SIMMs
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

   From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
   Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:20:43 -0600 (CDT)

   > --- Andreas Busse wrote:
   > This is all more or less true. 3-chip x9 SIMMs have only few more chips than
   > x36 SIMMs. The discussion what SIMMs we should use had no technical reason,
   > just a practical. RAMs are going to be more expensive, so it would be
   > desirable for most of us to use the SIMMs we already *have*, and these are
   > 1Mx9 and 4Mx9 SIMMs, with a few exceptions.
   > --- end of quoted material ---
   > I think it makes the most sense to design for what we *will be* able to buy,
   > not what we have now.  Building a "junk box" computer may be fun, but is a

   You mean, buy the motherboard, let it sit in a closet until the following
   summer when I can afford the memory?  Depending on how layout goes, it might
   be good to have a daughtercard with (full-speed) simm sockets of x36 or x9,
   depending on the card or some of each.  If we have enough VLSI chips for
   the real work, board space may not be a problem, but beware also creeping
   featurism and overflowing the board with all the connectors for the things
   the wonder-chips will also do...

At some point this group is going to have to decide just what
price/feature/performance trade-offs it wants to make. Some people insist
that the board be able to have at least 64MB of memory. From a reliability
perspective, using x9 SIMMs to get there is wacky. It also eats more board
space for sockets and (probably) more drivers. The comment that 3 chip x9
SIMMs don't have more chips that x36 SIMMs doesn't wash; if you have OLD
SIMMs that you want to reuse, I'll bet they are NOT 3 chip SIMMs. Are they?

I have all sorts of stuff in my junkbox (AKA "my old system"). I don't want
to cripple any NEW system just to shave a few bucks off (which, because of
board space, etc, it might not do anyway).

   > SIMM "shape" is tending from the older x8 and x9 SIMMs to x32, x33, x36, and
   > x40 SIMMs.  Some of this is due to Wang Labs reaching out from the grave to
   > try to strangle other companies.  Some is due to benefits of the x32ish
   > shape.
   Hmmm...more expensive, and yet you need to replace it in larger hunks if/when
   it goes bad.  Sounds superior to me...  /*sarcasm off*/

See above. Fewer connections == more reliable.

Why is everyone so hung up on DRAM chip reliability anyway? I wonder how
many SIMM failures are bad chips vs. failed connections?

-- Jerry Callen
   jcallen@world.std.com           (preferred)
   jcallen@think.com               (OK, too)
   {uunet,harvard}!think!jcallen   (if you must)

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 16:51:20 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 16:49:07 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307152020.AA23060@fncrdh.fnal.gov> from "Keith Rohrer" at Jul 15, 93 03:20:43 pm
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> You mean, buy the motherboard, let it sit in a closet until the following
> summer when I can afford the memory?  Depending on how layout goes, it might
> be good to have a daughtercard with (full-speed) simm sockets of x36 or x9,
> depending on the card or some of each.  If we have enough VLSI chips for
> the real work, board space may not be a problem, but beware also creeping
> featurism and overflowing the board with all the connectors for the things
> the wonder-chips will also do...

I have 16 MB of 4Mb x 9 simms.  I could probably get over $400 if I sold then
then buy 2 8 MB sims which would allow interleaved access at twice the
density (2 slots instead of 4).  In the future 8 slots could provide a 
maxmimum memory of 128 MB (4 times the density).  The motherboard would be 
smaller, cheaper, and interleaved memory would me much more flexible (i.e.
possible with 2 sims instead of 8 simms).

Unfortunately the 3730 doesn't support them 8-(

But I'll post my suggestion to that in a minute.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 17:13:54 1993
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From: Carlo J. Calica <calica@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-Id: <9307152113.AA04342@hprisc-25.cae.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 16:13:53 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307152045.AA24431@luna.think.com>; from "Jerry Callen" at Jul 15, 93 4:45 pm
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> space for sockets and (probably) more drivers. The comment that 3 chip x9
> SIMMs don't have more chips that x36 SIMMs doesn't wash; if you have OLD
> SIMMs that you want to reuse, I'll bet they are NOT 3 chip SIMMs. Are they?
> 
Well my old SIMMs ARE 3 chip!!  And I'd rather not get a new type of memory.

--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 18:59:06 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: 3081+3730 worth it?
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 18:56:56 -0500 (EDT)
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I was thinking the system might be better without without the 3081+3730.

Would a plain mips 3000 40 Mhz + 3010 be cheaper???

If we ditched the 3730+3081 in favor of a mips 3000+(optional)3010+custom 
logic we could have a bigger cache (say 256k) use 72 pin simms, for max 128 
(256MB?) in 8 slots, save the $130 on the limited supplies of 3730's.  

How hard would it to replace a subset of the functionality of the 3730???
Seems like the 3730 is expensive and does more then we need and limited in 
other areas (simms).  How about moving floppy+IDE+2 serial ports+parallel+game 
to ISA for $25 or with 16550's for $45.  How about if we delete video?(GASP)

I'd think that for X11 stuff an s3-928 ($250) on ISA (5 MB/sec) would be 
faster and take less cpu then the dumb frame buffer ($100+) solution currently 
being considered.  State of the art x-terminals work on 1.25 MB/sec, couldn't 
an accelerated video card do well on ISA at 4 times the speed?  Of course if 
you couldn't afford an S3-928 ($250) you could get a lesser card. 

72 pin simms while more expensive would need 4 times less sockets, and 4 times 
less simms to interleave.  2 8MB simms that allow interleaved access are much 
more attractive then 8 1MB sims, 8 4MB sims, or 4 non-interleaved 4MB x 9's.  
I think once board space and simm sockets are taken into account the price 
increase would be marginal.

Considering that the memory efficient linux+80486 easily needs 16 Mb to run 
X11 while compiling without swapping, 64 MB or greater max would be nice.
I consider 4 MBx9 simms reasonable up to 32 MB's.

The combination of a fast cpu (40 Mhz mips) with the larger risc code size plus
linux+x11 (low locality) seems like the 24k 3081 cache would be a bottle neck 
for the system, I think that 256k or more of cache could make a big difference.
Someone posted a R4000 at 50 Mhz with 16k cache was up to twice as slow as
a 33 Mhz mips 3000 with 64 k cache.

So is this feasible?  

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 19:06:41 1993
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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 18:03:10 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307152303.AA14779@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: SMC's FDC37C6[56][1256] parts.
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

I just got some local pricing on these, from Future.

part            price   del        min qty
fdc37c651qfp    14.31   6-8 wks     40
fdc37c652qfp    12.73   20 wks      43
fdc37c661qfp    14.63   6-8 wks     38
fdc37c662qfp    13.33   6-8 wks     42
fdc37c665qfp    21.45   10 wks      26
fdc37c665qfp    21.45   14 wks      26

Price is CDN$.  Approx US$0.83.  These are tax out prices.
You pay a premium for 4 MByte floppy & Enhanced Parallel Port.
But these are reasonable costs for low quantity orders.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 20:29:42 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: 3081+3730 worth it? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jul 1993 18:56:56 CDT."
             <9307152257.AA01120@gossip.pyramid.com> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 18:27:27 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


    
    How hard would it to replace a subset of the functionality of the 3730???
    Seems like the 3730 is expensive and does more then we need and limited in 
    other areas (simms).  How about moving floppy+IDE+2 serial ports+parallel+g
   ame 
    to ISA for $25 or with 16550's for $45.  

Serial ports without the FIFO buffers are worthless under *nix due to 
the dropped characters, so you're talking $45 on the ISA bus.  The 
FDC37c665 chip that does this (4M FDC, IDE, 2 16550's + parallel + 
game) was originally quoted at $23, a more recent number is $21.45 
canadian or $17.80 US.  That allows a lot of room for connectors
and the RS232 drivers until we're on a par with the ISA bus. 

    How about if we delete video?(GASP I think that a lot of us don't 
   )

I want the fastest interactive system I can get for a reasonable
price.  So, I'm better off with a 486-66 and local bus video 
than I am with a MIPS4400 and ISA S3 board.  I'm sure that a lot
of other people share these goals.
    
    I'd think that for X11 stuff an s3-928 ($250) on ISA (5 MB/sec) would be 
    faster and take less cpu then the dumb frame buffer ($100+) solution curren
   tly 
    being considered.  
    
    
    State of the art x-terminals work on 1.25 MB/sec couldn 't 
    an accelerated video card do well on ISA at 4 times the speed?  

I disagree.

Unless you can put the entire Xserver on the ISA graphics board,
it's not a fair comparison.  With the S3 board, you're still
moving fonts across the ISA bus everytime you bitblt a character
since the S3 board doesn't have enough memory to cache them, with
your cheap S3 board it's using DRAM so the blitter hardware, etc.
must share bandwidth with the video serializers at 45-90M/sec
(we don't have this problem with VRAM), the X terminal has a lot 
more intelligence (ie, 40Mhz R3000) and breathing room (8M of 
memory + VRAM vs. 1M total) to accelerate things.

The S3 board may relieve some of the burden of the CPU, but on a
single user workstation, I'm interested in total interactive 
performance, so I don't care if my GCC build in the background
slows down.
    
    Of course i f 
    you couldn't afford an S3-928 ($250) you could get a lesser card. 

Motherboard solution, using VRAM (assuming we get VRAM control signals 
off of the MOM chip, 3700, etc) 

2 Mac-compatible 512K VRAM SIMMS  $30/ea
1 TI tlc34076 RAMDAC              $32/ea
1 NSC LM1882 Video sync generator  $8/ea

Total : $100.  Much better than $250 for an S3 board. Not much worse than
	a Tseng ET4000 (max transfer rate 6M/sec) and cheaper than a 
	local bus board of any sort.
    
    72 pin simms while more expensive would need 4 times less sockets, 

If you shop arround 36 bit wide SIMMs are about the same price as 9 bit
wide SIMMs, ie ~$25 a megabyte.
    
    and 4 ti mes less simms to interleave.  2 8MB simms that allow interleaved 
    access are mu ch more attractive then 8 1MB sims, 8 4MB sims, or 
    4 non-interleaved 4MB x 9's
   .  
    I think once board space and simm sockets are taken into account the price 
    increase would be marginal.

Agreed.  I think that the 72 pin SIMMs are probably the route to go because
of realestate and the flexibility it gives us in interleaved memory 
configurations. Some people are arguing for 9 bit wide SIMMs because you 
have to replace less when a failure occurs - but I've never seen a memory
failure where a good chip went bad, on the 50 Unix workstations I administer
(some over 5 years old), on our VAX11/785, my PC, etc.

(On PC's, I've seen instances where new chips at a given speed don't 
work at the motherboard manufacturers' recommended number of wait 
states for that speed, but I attribute this to the marginal tollerances 
allowed for in PC design where it works if it all breaks the right way,
and haven't seen any problems using chips a speed faster (ie, 70ns 
instead of 80) than that recommended) 
    
    Considering that the memory efficient linux+80486 easily needs 16 Mb to run
    X11 while compiling without swapping, 64 MB or greater max would be nice.

Without paging *PERIOD*.  In 8M of memory, startup code will get paged 
out. With the addition of the fully unified buffercache in .99.10, with 
8M of memory and a kernel configured for my system my load average stays over 
1 during builds under X and the drive blips once every few seconds so I'm 
not thrashing.

Double that should be comfortable on a RISC.

    The combination of a fast cpu (40 Mhz mips) with the larger risc code 
    size plus linux+x11 (low locality) seems like the 24k 3081 cache would 
    be a bottle neck for the system, I think that 256k or more of cache could 
    make a big difference.

1.  That's separate I/D caches, so locality is maintained better.

2.  We have interleaved memory, which minimizes the cost of a cache miss.

3.  Our goal is "reasonable performance at a reasonable price", where
	reasonable performance in a workstation generally implies interactive
	performance.  This means what the system feels like to the user, 
	ie video, disk, etc.  So, I'd rather have onboard video than a second
	level cache.

    Someone posted a R4000 at 50 Mhz with 16k cache was up to twice as slow as
    a 33 Mhz mips 3000 with 64 k cache.

Caching : as you add more cache, you have diminishing returns.  Some one 
needs to look at the cache hit/miss rates and decide (for our purposes)
where more cache does more harm (price) than good (performance).

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 21:02:36 1993
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Message-Id: <199307160101.AA24195@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: MOM 3000 chipset
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 13 Jul 1993 16:27:29 PDT."
             <9307132327.AA07099@sword.eng.pyramid.com> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 19:01:18 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


While this chip adresses many of our needs (ie, address/data DEMUX,
DRAM / VRAM control, video timing signal generation, AT keyboard
interface) but falls short in other areas.

Most notable is the chips abysmal DMA support :  

- There's no support for slave mode DMA.  This makes it impossible to 
	use the low cost NCR53c90 for synchronous SCSI, severely 
	limiting your bandwidth.  It also makes it impossible to 
	get slave mode DMA from IDE, etc. devices, meaning we'll 
	have to waste CPU cycles doing polled transfers when we
	recieve an appropraite interrupt.

- Support for bus mastering *is* there, Bus grant / requests could 
	be daisy chained to get something other than the AMC ILAC 
	on the bus.  However, if we use other busmastering devices
	(the NCR53c700 SCSI controller comes to mind immediately) we 
	increase the cost of the rest of the system,  not to mention
	hardware and software development time.  Also, the onboard
	support for busmasters wants to see a MUX'd address/data bus
	with signals like those from the ILAC / 3041/3051/3081.

Also, bus sizing is limited to 32 / 64 bits wide, and we want 
to use 8 and 16 bit peripherials. 

Obviously, we can design arround these limitations with external
hardware, but the cost of the necessary internal hardware must be 
considered when comparing the MOM chips with others like the 
3700.

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 09:33:15 1993
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From: mccrorey%dhostwo.convex.com@mailhost.convex.com (Martin McCrorey)
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: re: wishlist
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
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Please remove me from this mailing list.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 09:45:35 1993
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From: Jerry Callen <jcallen@Think.COM>
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 09:40:47 EDT
Message-Id: <9307161340.AA11717@luna.think.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
In-Reply-To: Bill Broadley's message of Thu, 15 Jul 1993 18:56:56 -0500 (EDT) <9307152257.AA01120@gossip.pyramid.com>
Subject: 3081+3730 worth it?
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

   From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
   Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 18:56:56 -0500 (EDT)

   I was thinking the system might be better without without the 3081+3730.

   Would a plain mips 3000 40 Mhz + 3010 be cheaper???

AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!

A raw R3000/3010 requires several carefully timed clock inputs. One of the
BIG advantages of one of the second generation chips, like the R3051/3081
is that all the grotty clock generation is on chip, and the chip takes a
simple, single-phase clock input. I've heard that MIPS had trouble building
R3000 based systems at >25MHz; there's no way I'd try to do a 40MHz system.
Of course, some of the folks on this list may be more macho than I.

<soapbox mode on>

The only way I can believe this project might really fly is to stick with
easy to use parts and keep the design simple. Otherwise it will never get
done.

-- Jerry
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 15:00:02 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: 3081+3730 worth it?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 14:55:30 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307161340.AA11717@luna.think.com> from "Jerry Callen" at Jul 16, 93 09:40:47 am
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> A raw R3000/3010 requires several carefully timed clock inputs. One of the
> BIG advantages of one of the second generation chips, like the R3051/3081
> is that all the grotty clock generation is on chip, and the chip takes a
> simple, single-phase clock input. I've heard that MIPS had trouble building
> R3000 based systems at >25MHz; there's no way I'd try to do a 40MHz system.
> Of course, some of the folks on this list may be more macho than I.

I wasn't familiar with the design problems of the mips 3000.

How hard would it be to just replace the 3730?? So we save $130 and can
use the 36 bit simms.  I would think the 24 k cache would make the
interleaved memory even more important.

> The only way I can believe this project might really fly is to stick with
> easy to use parts and keep the design simple. Otherwise it will never get
> done.
I agree I think the ide+floppy+uarts+parallel+game should go on the ISA.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 15:31:14 1993
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Message-Id: <199307161929.AA23466@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: 3081+3730 worth it? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1993 14:55:30 CDT."
             <9307161856.AA29921@gossip.pyramid.com> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 13:29:19 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

    > The only way I can believe this project might really fly is to stick with
    > easy to use parts and keep the design simple. Otherwise it will never get
    > done.
    I agree I think the ide+floppy+uarts+parallel+game should go on the ISA.

Inegrated ide+floppy+uarts+parallel+game on motherboard : 
Takes the integrated chip, two 1488's and two 1489's and 
appropriate conectors.

ISA solution : 
Full ISA requires 1.5 sets of address lines (latched and unlatched),
several slave DMA channels, bus mastering support, variable bus sizing,
etc. 

If all people are going to do with the ISA bus is stick things
that are missing on the motherboard in it, it's going to be cheaper
and easier for us to grab the appropriate address lines, chipselects, etc 
and connect them directly to the appropriate chips than it is for
us to implement a full or even partial ISA bus implementation.

As to ISA for "expansion"  - in a workstation, I need ethernet, disk,
tape, video, and serial ports.  For expansion, as long as I can add
memory and disk as they get cheaper or my vendor "upgrades"
his software, I'm happy and don't need any sort of card slots.

--------

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 15:55:45 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307161952.AA22680@fncrd6.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: 3081+3730 worth it?
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 14:52:42 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307161929.AA23466@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU> from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 16, 93 01:29:19 pm
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>     > The only way I can believe this project might really fly is to stick with
>     > easy to use parts and keep the design simple. Otherwise it will never get
>     > done.
>     I agree I think the ide+floppy+uarts+parallel+game should go on the ISA.
> Inegrated ide+floppy+uarts+parallel+game on motherboard : 
> Takes the integrated chip, two 1488's and two 1489's and 
> appropriate conectors.
> 
> ISA solution : 
> Full ISA requires 1.5 sets of address lines (latched and unlatched),
> several slave DMA channels, bus mastering support, variable bus sizing,
> etc. 
> 
> If all people are going to do with the ISA bus is stick things
> that are missing on the motherboard in it, it's going to be cheaper
> and easier for us to grab the appropriate address lines, chipselects, etc 
> and connect them directly to the appropriate chips than it is for
> us to implement a full or even partial ISA bus implementation.
That's not the question.  The question is, is it cheaper to put ISA in than
it is to put everything anyone wants or will want before the board is
obsoleted on the board?  

> As to ISA for "expansion"  - in a workstation, I need ethernet, disk,
> tape, video, and serial ports.  For expansion, as long as I can add
> memory and disk as they get cheaper or my vendor "upgrades"
> his software, I'm happy and don't need any sort of card slots.
Ooh, yeah, that's it, get yourself a big old 5.25" FH drive, and a HH,
and a 3.5" HH, and a 3.5"x1", and a 2.5", and we'll program something
to knock the drive heads against the spindles to produce 44.1kHz digital
sound!  Get another set of drives and put them in another case for stereo!

Seriously, we do need a speaker port on the motherboard for joyful coming-
to-life beepings and scornful you-screwed-up-bigtime buzzings, or otherwise
just plain clues beyond "nothing happens when you turn it on", to be used
at least by the boot ROM when it does the self-check.  Sorta like
the kind of beeps you get when you have a card in the ISA bus not quite in
straight and shorting things... 

	Keith

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 16:32:20 1993
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 15:29:52 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307162029.AA27849@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: 3081+3730 worth it?
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)

> >  > The only way I can believe this project might really fly is to stick with
> >  > easy to use parts and keep the design simple. Otherwise it will never get
> >  > done.

> > If all people are going to do with the ISA bus is stick things
> > that are missing on the motherboard in it, it's going to be cheaper
> > and easier ....

> That's not the question.  The question is, is it cheaper to put ISA in than
> it is to put everything anyone wants or will want before the board is
> obsoleted on the board?  

> > As to ISA for "expansion"  -  ...
> > ... I'm happy and don't need any sort of card slots.
> ... to produce 44.1kHz digital
> sound! 
> 
> Seriously, we do need a speaker port on the motherboard ...
> 	Keith

A bit output for a speaker seems well worth it, for diagnostics alone.

This project is, like most products, a compromise.  We're going
to have to have some kind of ISA bus for expansion, or there won't
be enough people wanting the machine to make it a reasonable project.  

I suggest that very common peripherals (disk i/f's, serial i/o,
keyboard i/o, and video i/o) be on the motherboard.  The cost
is very close to equivalent, and the software effort is much
improved.  You get a more reliable system because the basics are
known.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 18:00:14 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307162158.AA22933@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Current status
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 14:58:09 PDT
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

Neil Russell awakens from a long day dream, and says:


We may have arived at a point that we cannot continue from.  We have
four possible solutions to the peripheral controller problem.  It should
be noted (if its not already obvious) that without the peripheral
controller the whole project is pointless.

1)  Use a IDT 79R3730.  This is the simplest and most attractive solution.
    The 3730 provides all of the right things, with the possible exception
    of video display support, which we have a solution for provided by
    Steve Ligett.  However, IDT are not forth comming on this part.  I am
    getting reluctance from the salesman at IDT in Santa Clara, and
    Andy Busse has had similar problems trying to get information though
    IDT in Germany.  In fact, Andy has been told that if we want a design
    now, don't use the 3730.  Quite frankly, I don't have the confidence
    in IDT to use it.  So this option is out.

2)  Use the MotherChip-set from Visual.  Their chips will be available
    in a few weeks, and for a good price.  However, while they solve
    the video problem quite nicely, there have no real support for
    DMA, which makes SCSI and Ethernet difficult.  As for providing
    extra logic to suplement their short commings, it would be a
    daunting task to do anything that would provide an efficient for
    software solution.  In fact, we may implement a good portion of
    a peripheral controller in doing so, thus making the MOM chips
    less useful.

3)  Use Ligett and Callen approach and do a DRAM controller in simple
    logic and use another CPU (a 3041 in their case) to do the I/O
    support.  This would certainly provide the efficiency for
    software that is needed, but the complexity and the fact that
    a good DRAM controller is hard, especially for the 30x1, may make
    this too complicated.

4)  Implement a 3730 like thing in readily available logic.  We could
    use a load of PALs and various logic, or maybe one or two FPGA's.
    Alternatively, we could have a semi-custom chip made.  I'm told that
    this may be cheap enough to consider.  Prices for semi-custom are
    based mostly on the pin count of the package used.  I'm still
    investigating this one, so I could be mis-informing you here.

5)  Wait 6 months and begin again.  By this time, the 3730 should be
    out along with some possible R4000 solutions.  I have heard that
    R4200's may be available for as little as us$200 (quantity unknown).
    However, we may well have the same peripheral controller problems.


While typing this, I had the thought that we could combine solutions
(2) and (3).  So, the main CPU would have a MOM3000i (and maybe a
MOM3000d) and so would handle all the video.  A single DMA interface
from the 3041 would be implemented with assistance from the MOM3000i.
All of the remaining peripherals are connected to the 3041 using its
bus sizing stuff.  DMA is implemented using software loops in the 3041.

Some price guesses (for the peripheral and video sections):

	MOM3000 chipset			50
	3041				45
	EPROM				 5 (8-bit wide)
	SRAM (for the 3041)		20 (not necessarily 32-bit wide)
	RAMDAC				30 (is this price right?)
	glue				10
				----------
				       160

We then add to that the prices that we have already established for
the SCSI, Ethernet, Serial, PCB, CPU, etc, and you have it.

As for the software in the 3041, it would be a seriously real-time
collection of interrupt driven loops, using registers and some SRAM
for buffering, with most of the data going directly to the main memory.
I do not see this would be a major problem.
-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 16 18:27:18 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Current status
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 18:25:43 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307162158.AA22933@sword.eng.pyramid.com> from "Neil Russell" at Jul 16, 93 02:58:09 pm
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> 4)  Implement a 3730 like thing in readily available logic.  We could
>     use a load of PALs and various logic, or maybe one or two FPGA's.

Anyone have a good idea how hard the above would?

> 	RAMDAC				30 (is this price right?)

From the mailing list I have:
2 Mac-compatible 512K VRAM SIMMS  $30/ea
1 TI tlc34076 RAMDAC              $32/ea
1 NSC LM1882 Video sync generator  $8/ea
                                 ----
total                            $100 1152x900 x 8 bit 


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Sun Jul 18 04:25:29 1993
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Subject: VLSI VL82C113 (Keyboard Controller & RTC)
To: Riscy Mailing List <riscy@pyramid.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 10:52:47 BST
From: Derek Fawcus <df@eyrie.demon.co.uk>
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I sent this out on thursday, but since I haven't seen it arrive on the list,
I'm sending it again.  My apologies to anyone who gets it twice.

---------- Start repeated article -----------

 Here's the pricing on the VLSI VL82C113 and VL82C113A (Combined RTC,
Keyboard Controller, Refresh counter and ISA Address Buffers).
 
 Sorry about the delay but our supplier was somewhat confused by the
availability of this part.
 
  The problem was that the two parts above have been obsoleted, and may be
unavailable from the end of the year.  They have been replaced by a pin
compatible replacement (VL82C114), this is difficult to get at the moment
but will be readily available by the end of the year.
 
  This device ('114) is a replacement for the '113A with 50 extra bytes
of CMOS memory (giving 100 bytes plus the RTC data).  Other than that it
appears to be identical.

  The chips contains a read only version register, I assume that this will
allow the '113A and '114 to be distinguished.

  It therefor seems that if chosen, we could design for the '113A and just
replace it with the '114A when that is available in quantity.

Pricing is as follows:

Qty    1 - 24     25 - 99    100 -  ?

       9 UKP      8 UKP      7.53 UKP

Both the '113 and 113A have the same price, the '114 is expected to be the
same price when it's available.

	DF

-- 
Derek Fawcus (G7FVS)                                df@eyrie.demon.co.uk
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 05:13:56 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 10:50:30 +0200
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	id AA07154; Mon, 19 Jul 93 10:50:30 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  Current status
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


> Neil Russell awakens from a long day dream, and says:

Hope it was nice, Neil :-)

> We may have arived at a point that we cannot continue from.  We have
> four possible solutions to the peripheral controller problem.  It should
> be noted (if its not already obvious) that without the peripheral
> controller the whole project is pointless.

> 1)  Use a IDT 79R3730.  This is the simplest and most attractive solution.
>    The 3730 provides all of the right things, with the possible exception
>    of video display support, which we have a solution for provided by
>    Steve Ligett.  However, IDT are not forth comming on this part.  I am
>    getting reluctance from the salesman at IDT in Santa Clara, and
>    Andy Busse has had similar problems trying to get information though
>    IDT in Germany.  In fact, Andy has been told that if we want a design
>    now, don't use the 3730.  Quite frankly, I don't have the confidence
>    in IDT to use it.  So this option is out.

Neil is right here. A field engineer at IDT Germany told me that we
should not wait for the 3730. Although IDT is currently testing samples
they will *not* provide more informations, handbooks and parts as
long the design isn't *completely* finished. This may take a while...

> 2)  Use the MotherChip-set from Visual.  Their chips will be available
>     in a few weeks, and for a good price.  However, while they solve
>     the video problem quite nicely, there have no real support for
>     DMA, which makes SCSI and Ethernet difficult.  As for providing
>     extra logic to suplement their short commings, it would be a
>     daunting task to do anything that would provide an efficient for
>     software solution.  In fact, we may implement a good portion of
>     a peripheral controller in doing so, thus making the MOM chips
>     less useful.

I doubt that the MOM* chips are a good choice. They are intended
to be used in a x-terminal and therefore do not really support more I/O
than ethernet, video and serial for mouse and keyboard. 

> 3)  Use Ligett and Callen approach and do a DRAM controller in simple
>     logic and use another CPU (a 3041 in their case) to do the I/O
>     support.  This would certainly provide the efficiency for
>     software that is needed, but the complexity and the fact that
>     a good DRAM controller is hard, especially for the 30x1, may make
>     this too complicated.

This solution might work with a lot of effort and trouble. Although
some things would be done in software, we would still need a lot
of glue between the CPU's, for the DRAM controller and for video.

> 4)  Implement a 3730 like thing in readily available logic.  We could
>     use a load of PALs and various logic, or maybe one or two FPGA's.
>     Alternatively, we could have a semi-custom chip made.  I'm told that
>     this may be cheap enough to consider.  Prices for semi-custom are
>     based mostly on the pin count of the package used.  I'm still
>     investigating this one, so I could be mis-informing you here.

Using a lot of PALs might work and wouldn't cost that much. FPGA's
are perhaps too slow or too expensive. Using semi-custom chips is
so far I know *extremely* expensive in the design phase but then
cheaper than everything else. Neil is perhaps not thinking about
a real ASIC. I'll give you an idea: We (Waldorf) is currently
planning an ASIC with approx. 100K gates (7x10 mm die).
Design costs: us$120,000. Part costs: us$30. Of course, we wouldn't
need 100k gates, but I'm sure it will be still too expensive.

5)  Wait 6 months and begin again.  By this time, the 3730 should be
    out along with some possible R4000 solutions.  I have heard that
    R4200's may be available for as little as us$200 (quantity unknown).
    However, we may well have the same peripheral controller problems.

This may be in fact the best thing we could do. The Orion/R4400 chips
will become cheap, support chips are announced yet.

> While typing this, I had the thought that we could combine solutions
> (2) and (3).  So, the main CPU would have a MOM3000i (and maybe a
> MOM3000d) and so would handle all the video.  A single DMA interface
> from the 3041 would be implemented with assistance from the MOM3000i.
> All of the remaining peripherals are connected to the 3041 using its
> bus sizing stuff.  DMA is implemented using software loops in the 3041.

This a way worth to discuss if we don't want to wait for a R4x00
solution.

> [ prices deleted ]

> We then add to that the prices that we have already established for
> the SCSI, Ethernet, Serial, PCB, CPU, etc, and you have it.
> 
> As for the software in the 3041, it would be a seriously real-time
> collection of interrupt driven loops, using registers and some SRAM
> for buffering, with most of the data going directly to the main memory.
> I do not see this would be a major problem.

Agreed.


Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
Neustrasse 9-12, 53498 Waldorf, Germany | email:  andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 05:51:39 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Mips cpu's
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 05:49:50 -0500 (EDT)
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Check out the recent Intel vs HP,MIPS, AMD,CRYIX message in comp.sys.intel

It has alot of information on the current state of the cpu market.

Not sure how accuracte.  But it's interesting.

It also mentions some interesting stuff about $50-$70 cpu's:
There are also some amazing MIPS
chips coming (see Microprocessor Report May 31 1993).  The first (from NEC
at only $70!!!) is really low power (2 watts vs Pentiums 16) and equal in
performance to the Pentium.  You can get info on this by calling 1-800 I
GO MIPS and with a touch tone phone asking the machine to FAX you
Documents No. 205 and 206.  You can also call James Mac Hale at MIPS at
415-390-4560. The other is about 30% faster (from IDT) and a bit more than
$70.  Since MIPS runs NT these can run all of the Intel software.  At $70
this is twice as fast as Intel's 486 which costs like $500 (Intel's bread
and butter).  These chips are smaller than the 486 and so very cheap to
make (like 1/10th to 1/20th the cost of the Pentium).


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 06:02:03 1993
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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 11:59:05 +0200
From: wolff@liberator.et.tudelft.nl (Rogier Wolff)
Message-Id: <9307190959.AA04559@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: MOM chip limitations.
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


Hi everyone,

The MOM chip seems to be of limited use since it doesn't seem to
be enough expandable: it isn't supposed to be connected to more
than 1) screen 2) keyboard 3) mouse 4) ethernet.

Note however the word supposed in the last sentence. This doesn't
immediately mean that it can't be done. One of us should look over 
the MOM chip documentation to have a look if it is possible
to perform some sort of hack. For instance it could be possible
to hook all DMA devices that we want on the connection that's 
intended to be hooked up the the ethernet.

Other memory mapped devices might be hooked up to the "general
IO" regions (or whatever they are called), however I don't know 
how many address lines there are available. 

Next it might be possible to hook other chips to the native 
system bus of the R3000, as long as there is no address
conflict with the mappings of the MOM chip. 

These possibilities should be looked into by one of us on the 
mailinglist. (sorry I don't have time....)


					Roger.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 07:13:08 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 13:02:47 +0200
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	id AA07330; Mon, 19 Jul 93 13:02:47 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  Mips cpu's
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> [...]
> It also mentions some interesting stuff about $50-$70 cpu's:
> There are also some amazing MIPS
> chips coming (see Microprocessor Report May 31 1993).  The first (from NEC
> at only $70!!!) is really low power (2 watts vs Pentiums 16) and equal in
> performance to the Pentium.  You can get info on this by calling 1-800 I
> GO MIPS and with a touch tone phone asking the machine to FAX you
> Documents No. 205 and 206.  You can also call James Mac Hale at MIPS at
> 415-390-4560. The other is about 30% faster (from IDT) and a bit more than
> $70.  Since MIPS runs NT these can run all of the Intel software.  At $70
> this is twice as fast as Intel's 486 which costs like $500 (Intel's bread
> and butter).  These chips are smaller than the 486 and so very cheap to
> make (like 1/10th to 1/20th the cost of the Pentium).

Although we wouldn't get the parts for these prices (they are meant
for quantities > 1000 !!) Bill is right. We should *at least* wait
a few weeks to see what happens on the R4x00 market.
I expect informations from IDT this week.
However, a R3000 solution might be obsolete within some months,
so we should not hurry up building a thing which might be *relatively*
underpowered and overpriced.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
Neustrasse 9-12, 53498 Waldorf, Germany | email:  andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 15:47:59 1993
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From: Youda He <yhe@eecs.umich.edu>
Message-Id: <199307191944.AA16692@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: ub
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 15:44:05 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oER1U-00039LC@zarniwoop.chi.il.us>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 9, 93 3:34 pm
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Check NEC for their ARC 100/150 manufacturing kits, they supply schematics 
Gerber for mother board and Ethernet, serial, audio, mouse, video
their kits include NEC glue chips, to interface MIPS CPU with i386-like BUS
Their phone number is 1-800-366-9782

-- Youda
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 16:06:06 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
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In-Reply-To: <199307191944.AA16692@quip.eecs.umich.edu> from "Youda He" at Jul 19, 93 03:44:05 pm
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Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> 
> Check NEC for their ARC 100/150 manufacturing kits, they supply schematics 
> Gerber for mother board and Ethernet, serial, audio, mouse, video
> their kits include NEC glue chips, to interface MIPS CPU with i386-like BUS
> Their phone number is 1-800-366-9782
> 
> -- Youda

Wow sounds like a dream come true.  

A hopefully tested design including all the functionality which we were 
shooting for.

Questions:
	Video resolution??  Dumb fram buffer?
	What kind of simms?
	What cpu/Mhz?
	
-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 18:12:02 1993
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From: Youda He <yhe@eecs.umich.edu>
Message-Id: <199307192208.AA28607@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 18:08:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oER1U-00039LC@zarniwoop.chi.il.us>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 9, 93 3:34 pm
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I tried to get some info on the NEC ARC100/150 manufacturing kits, so far
not many people know about it, even within NEC, one tech support people
called me back said the manufacturing kits cost $5000. if that true, it 
is a great deal. it consists of:

ARC chip set and CPU, document, ROM, dssign info of:
 Schematics (soft and hard copy) of Vr4400PC,  Vr4400SC, Vr4400MC mother
board, Ethernet, serial board, audio/mouse board, video board.
 Netlist PAL/PLD
 Binary and source code for Baselevel firmware and Windows NT firmware, HAL
 System documentation
 Gerber tapes for five system motherboard.

How do you feel about this board? 

-- Youda
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 18:38:07 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 18:36:20 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307192208.AA28607@quip.eecs.umich.edu> from "Youda He" at Jul 19, 93 06:08:46 pm
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> 
> I tried to get some info on the NEC ARC100/150 manufacturing kits, so far
> not many people know about it, even within NEC, one tech support people
> called me back said the manufacturing kits cost $5000. if that true, it 
> is a great deal. it consists of:
> 
> ARC chip set and CPU, document, ROM, dssign info of:
>  Schematics (soft and hard copy) of Vr4400PC,  Vr4400SC, Vr4400MC mother
> board, Ethernet, serial board, audio/mouse board, video board.
>  Netlist PAL/PLD
>  Binary and source code for Baselevel firmware and Windows NT firmware, HAL
>  System documentation
>  Gerber tapes for five system motherboard.
> 
> How do you feel about this board? 
> 
> -- Youda
> 
Sounds great.  Please post any/all info you get.  

Maybe we could get a discount for just one of the motherboard designs.  

Or promise to donate the linux port and then they could sell the motherboard 
design+linux for 5k.

The key would be getting enough people so that we could split the 5k enough 
ways. 

I'd love to get a hold of a mips 4k board cheap.   Any ideas on 4400 chip
prices?  4000?

I'd suspect we can't afford more then a mips 4k.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 19 19:01:52 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307192300.AA12029@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 16:00:23 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9307192237.AA26363@gossip.pyramid.com>; from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 19, 93 6:36 pm
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> > How do you feel about this board? 
> > 
> > -- Youda
> > 
> Sounds great.  Please post any/all info you get.  
> 
> Maybe we could get a discount for just one of the motherboard designs.  

The five designs would seem to be the MB, Ethernet, serial, etc.  I'm
kind of interested in the other designs also.

> Or promise to donate the linux port and then they could sell the motherboard 
> design+linux for 5k.

I doubt that NEC would be interested in linux.  Its not professional for such
a company to promote free software.

> The key would be getting enough people so that we could split the 5k enough 
> ways. 

With the mailing list the way it is (was) there would be around 100 sales of
a reasonably priced board in faily short order.  That is $50 ea for the design.

> I'd love to get a hold of a mips 4k board cheap.   Any ideas on 4400 chip
> prices?  4000?

I would imagine that the design from NEC is copyrighted such that we wouldn't
make it generally available.  So it would take a company to buy the design
and manufacture it.  Its then up to that company to make the price right
for linux people to be interested.  The bad news is that the R4000PC costs
around us$700 right now (correct me if I'm wrong).  So the finished motherboard
would easily be $1500 or more.

In about 6 - 9 months, IDT release the Orion chip, which is a pin compatible
replacement for the R4000PC which should cost less than $200 in small to
medium quantities.  This adds weight to my argument for us pause this project
for about 6 months.

Don't forget though, that you automatically need twice the RAM, because this
is a 64-bit CPU.  (That is unless there is bus sizing logic on the board.)

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 20 12:00:16 1993
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From: Youda He <yhe@eecs.umich.edu>
Message-Id: <199307201551.AA13317@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 11:51:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9307192300.AA12029@sword.eng.pyramid.com>; from "Neil Russell" at Jul 19, 93 4:00 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
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> 
> > > How do you feel about this board? 
> > > 
> > > -- Youda
> > > 
> > Sounds great.  Please post any/all info you get.  
> > 
> > Maybe we could get a discount for just one of the motherboard designs.  
> 
> The five designs would seem to be the MB, Ethernet, serial, etc.  I'm
> kind of interested in the other designs also.
> 
The five designs includes 3 mother boards: Vr4000/4400PC, Vr4000/4400SC and
VR4400MC motherboards, it sounds like NEC/MIPS really want this thing
get to end users hand. they also have 4200, low cost, low power part.
from their flyer, they seems also have 3600A, with FPU.

> 
> In about 6 - 9 months, IDT release the Orion chip, which is a pin compatible
> replacement for the R4000PC which should cost less than $200 in small to
> medium quantities.  This adds weight to my argument for us pause this project
> for about 6 months.
> 
> Don't forget though, that you automatically need twice the RAM, because this
> is a 64-bit CPU.  (That is unless there is bus sizing logic on the board.)
> 
> -- 
> Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
> Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
> 3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
> San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
> 
With kits like NECs and I guess other company will join, there may be more
than one start up company want to make MIPS based computer, since NEC will
have:
  .. And coming soon is an ACER designed, NEC manufactured PICA (performance-
enhanced IO and CPU Architecture) chip set which will offer another high-
performance solution... coupled with ACER's manufacturing kit, provides an 
optional complete system solution....

-- Youda

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 20 12:03:18 1993
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 09:57:53 MDT
From: Alan Krantz <atk@agua.Colorado.EDU>
Message-Id: <9307201557.AA04805@agua.colorado.edu>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

Three things: 
    1) It seems that the video should be a local bus card instead of
       on the mother board (given the rapidly changing/availbility) of
       cheap accelators (S3 boards are now around $130)

    2) Is the SCSI on the isa bus or main cpu board ?

    3) Is anyone porting linux to the Mips chip ?

Thanks, 
alan
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 20 14:28:33 1993
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Message-Id: <9307201748.AA26266@rei.com>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 12:48:08 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307200121.AA22217@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Jul 19, 93 08:21:25 pm
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> 
> I would imagine that the design from NEC is copyrighted such that we wouldn't
> make it generally available.  So it would take a company to buy the design
> and manufacture it.  Its then up to that company to make the price right
> for linux people to be interested.

Isn't this contrary to the whole point of this project?  Or have I
misunderstood what the goal was?

I thought the point was a computer distributed under the Free
Software Foundation General Public License.  I interpreted that to
mean that all the 'sources' had to be available to anyone who has
the board, and that no one could prevent anyone from copying the
sources for anyone else.  By sources I understood schematics, parts
list, board etch and drill drawings, whatever anyone skilled in the
art would want to have to change the design and post the patches in
Usenet News, or have any board fab shop make a batch of 'em.  Have I
missed the boat again?

'Free' is not the price tag.  If you want lots of MIPS cheap, buy a
three year old workstation [I just bought a DECstation 3100 for US$1250
:-) ].  If you want more MIPS less cheap, buy a new 486PC.  If you have
an even bigger appetite, and bigger pockets, get a new workstation from
a high-volume manufacturer.  You're still bound to get a lot more for
your money than a DIY project built in prototype quantities.

I never imagined that 'cheap' was the goal -- it's just not a
reasonable goal.  I thought the goal was freedom.

-- 
Ted Spradley   Recognition International, Inc.  Opinions are mine, not theirs.
2701 E Grauwyler Rd. |Your productivity is not enhanced when you're staring
Irving TX 75061      |at that thing.  Your productivity is enhanced when
214-579-6692         |the computer is working and you're doing something else.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 21 01:43:14 1993
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Message-Id: <9307210336.AA10744@chao.sw.oz.au>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:36:54 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9307201557.AA04805@agua.colorado.edu> from "Alan Krantz" at Jul 20, 93 09:57:53 am
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
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Alan Krantz bubbles:

> Three things: 
>     1) It seems that the video should be a local bus card instead of
>        on the mother board (given the rapidly changing/availbility) of
>        cheap accelators (S3 boards are now around $130)
>     2) Is the SCSI on the isa bus or main cpu board ?

Video and scsi are on the main board.  Read the list's archives before
commenting further, to save more noise.

>     3) Is anyone porting linux to the Mips chip ?

Yes.  I'm working on it, as much as possible without hardware.  I'm mainly
interested in getting the linux core going: interrupts, MMU and most
basic drivers, leaving most device drivers, user mode stuff etc to later
and for others.

	J
 
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC machines
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com



> The five designs includes 3 mother boards: Vr4000/4400PC, Vr4000/4400SC and
> VR4400MC motherboards, it sounds like NEC/MIPS really want this thing
> get to end users hand. they also have 4200, low cost, low power part.
> from their flyer, they seems also have 3600A, with FPU.

That sounds very interesting to me. I will trigger the NEC people in
Germany again to give me more informations. They are a bit lazy, so
perhaps they need an interrupt...

> With kits like NECs and I guess other company will join, there may be more
> than one start up company want to make MIPS based computer, since NEC will
> have:
>   .. And coming soon is an ACER designed, NEC manufactured PICA (performance-
> enhanced IO and CPU Architecture) chip set which will offer another high-
> performance solution... coupled with ACER's manufacturing kit, provides an 
> optional complete system solution....

This is surely what is intended with this offer. NEC does not sale
designs because they like Linux. I do hope that there will be lots
of companies producing and selling R4x00 boards, because that's the
only way to make things cheap.

> > 
> > I would imagine that the design from NEC is copyrighted such that we wouldn't
> > make it generally available.  So it would take a company to buy the design
> > and manufacture it.  Its then up to that company to make the price right
> > for linux people to be interested.

Agreed. For example, Waldorf could by the design, produce the
Linux-riscy-board and make a spin-off for their (our) own purposes.

> Isn't this contrary to the whole point of this project?  Or have I
> misunderstood what the goal was?

I'm not sure. I had the feeling that we were looking for a reasonable
hardware that allows porting Linux to Mips. Reasonable means that
many people can afford this hardware.

> I thought the point was a computer distributed under the Free
> Software Foundation General Public License.  I interpreted that to
> mean that all the 'sources' had to be available to anyone who has
> the board, and that no one could prevent anyone from copying the
> sources for anyone else.  By sources I understood schematics, parts
> list, board etch and drill drawings, whatever anyone skilled in the
> art would want to have to change the design and post the patches in
> Usenet News, or have any board fab shop make a batch of 'em.  Have I
> missed the boat again?

Sorry, I don't understand your problem. Do you insist on designing
your own hardware or are you looking for a way to make Linux
running on a mips ?

> 'Free' is not the price tag.  If you want lots of MIPS cheap, buy a
> three year old workstation [I just bought a DECstation 3100 for US$1250
> :-) ].  If you want more MIPS less cheap, buy a new 486PC.  If you have
> an even bigger appetite, and bigger pockets, get a new workstation from
> a high-volume manufacturer.  You're still bound to get a lot more for
> your money than a DIY project built in prototype quantities.

That does NOT solve our problem. For porting Linux to Mips it is
necessary to have a reference platform. You can't buy a DEC 3100
or a Mips Magnum 4000 or whatever and download a Mips-Linux. It
would NOT run because of a different architecture. I doubt that
Linux will be ported to all kinds of Mips machines. There are
too many different !
After all, I feel you're only interested in the hardware stuff,
not in porting Linux, right ?

> I never imagined that 'cheap' was the goal -- it's just not a
> reasonable goal.  I thought the goal was freedom.

It is still the goal. Linux stays free, no matter on what hardware
it is running.


Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
Neustrasse 9-12, 53498 Waldorf, Germany | email:  andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 21 04:57:48 1993
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From: Alan Krantz <atk@agua.Colorado.EDU>
Message-Id: <9307210852.AA10578@agua.colorado.edu>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
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  From owner-riscy@pyramid.com Tue Jul 20 23:39:28 1993
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  From: jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge)
  Message-Id: <9307210336.AA10744@chao.sw.oz.au>
  Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
  To: riscy@pyramid.com
  Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:36:54 +1000 (EST)
  In-Reply-To: <9307201557.AA04805@agua.colorado.edu> from "Alan Krantz" at Jul 20, 93 09:57:53 am
  Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
  X-Face: 
  	 '6U=%Tv\k1<Ek%ql%PN^v`Db4bakr[v~y]\u7"GbO#I=]N{l1=#P,glz$9q>l-:?\$C[D@G
  	 7(vl~w8&y}!f\bh#w<Y*S~bEBTI:s&.QR>L#n,TGKh>T.c7eT5-y)Hl'i;A1z$9?*lD.k}yqshddFb
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  Status: R

  Alan Krantz bubbles:

  > Three things: 
  >     1) It seems that the video should be a local bus card instead of
  >        on the mother board (given the rapidly changing/availbility) of
  >        cheap accelators (S3 boards are now around $130)
  >     2) Is the SCSI on the isa bus or main cpu board ?

  Video and scsi are on the main board.  Read the list's archives before
  commenting further, to save more noise.

I saw the original blurb that said this was the case - though it did not
explain why. Can someone give me an update why this option is better and 
what type of performance is expected from the built in video controller
(and compare it to some of the popular video cards). Also, will the built in 
video support a mono-chrome (only) frame buffer in addition to a colour one?

(I just joined the list the other day so if there was a long discussion on 
 this i did not see it)

Thanks,
Alan
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 21 09:00:25 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: NEC Vr4400 and ARC manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:57:20 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307210336.AA10744@chao.sw.oz.au> from "Jeremy Fitzhardinge" at Jul 21, 93 01:36:54 pm
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> >     3) Is anyone porting linux to the Mips chip ?
> 
> Yes.  I'm working on it, as much as possible without hardware.  I'm mainly
> interested in getting the linux core going: interrupts, MMU and most
> basic drivers, leaving most device drivers, user mode stuff etc to later
> and for others.
> 
> 	J

Not sure if this is the appropiate time to get start the linux port, but I have
access to 2 decstation's and plan to help out as much as possible.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 21 12:32:49 1993
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From: michaud@cdsmn.mn.org (Jeff Michaud)
Subject: PLEASE remove me
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 10:00:40 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307210336.AA10744@chao.sw.oz.au>; from "Jeremy Fitzhardinge" at Jul 21, 93 1:36 pm
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Could someone PLEASE remove me from this mailing list????  This is my
fourth attempt.

Jeff
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 22 17:02:13 1993
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From: Youda He <yhe@eecs.umich.edu>
Message-Id: <199307222057.AA22063@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: NEC ARC chip set info 
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 16:57:16 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m0oER1U-00039LC@zarniwoop.chi.il.us>; from "Andrew Dyer" at Jul 9, 93 3:34 pm
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I got more info for NEC ARC100/150 chip set. I called a NEC tech people,
they said the schematic and Gerber are pretty free, all they wanted 
is to sell their hardware, the design is one that they have tried and worked
the firwares are from MIPS, so they don't really know. they provide almost
no support, since they know the chip set works... all software support
are from MIPS or third party. ARC chip set+Vr4400 are $100/set at 10K quantity
the real cost for small (10-100) quantities are determined by distributor. ARC
manufacturing kits cost $5000.

So...? 

-- Youda
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 22 18:07:20 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307222204.AA18985@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Interesting overview of the market we're talking about - part 1
To: riscy@sword.eng.pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:04:06 PDT
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jeremy@sw.oz.au sent this to riscy, but it was too big.  I've re-posted
it in two parts.  There is currently a limit of 20k per message on the
mailing list software, which I will raise to 64k soon.


-------



>From jeremy@sw.oz.au  Thu Jul 22 03:36:22 1993
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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 16:57:56 EST
From: jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge)
Message-Id: <9307220657.AA16391@chao.sw.oz.au>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Interesting overview of the market we're talking about

This seems to be a 2nd order forwarding -- but it looks like an
interesting summary of the market we're talking about.  It seems
obvious from this that if we don't get something out very soon,
we'll be trying to build the equivalent of a 486 motherboard
without the mass production.

I'll try and edit it for the most relevent to the list.  Towards the
end it gets generally interesting, and there's some good goo on
Intel deviousness...

Cut parts will be marked with a [...].

	J
-- Cut from comp.arch --

I got the following through a convoluted path.  I thought it may be
of interest to the above groups, so here it is.  The author is unknown
and it isn't me, so don't thank me (or flame me) for the info.  I'm
just passing it on.

--
Angela Marie Thomas             Internet: angela@kithrup.com

Disclaimer:  !Kithrup's opinions, thoughts, beliefs, statements, etc.
             Heck, they aren't even mine.  O:-)

--Cut Here--

There has been a lot of talk on the net about Intel and the competition it
is about to face.  I have tried to collect what I see as the important
points in the following.  A one sentence summary is "The combination of
RISC chips for 1/10th the price of the Pentium and binary translators that
let the RISC chips outperform the Pentium on 486 code will prove
devastating to Intel."


Disclaimer:  

While this information is believed to be accurate, some of it comes from
the net and has not been verified.  Use at your own risk.  Post
corrections for any significant errors you find to misc.invest.


*************************** MY PREDICTIONS ***************************

Over the next 12 months MIPS/NEC/IDT and Motorola/IBM each sell millions
of chips.  The MIPS group will sell more than twice as many chips as Intel
sells Pentiums.  The Motorola group will just pass Pentium production.
DEC, HP, and SUN will all ship in numbers that are a sizable fractions of
the number of Pentium shipped.

People will complain that Intel is "Having production problems with the
Pentiums and not able to supply enough".  

IBM's x86 PC division will increase market share (as it has a cheaper
supply of fast chips).

Cyrix will do very well.

Acer and other companies making MIPS systems will have good sales (partly
because people can not get Pentium boxes).  Compaq and a few other PC
makers will announce MIPS based systems.  The portables and high end
machines will move away from x86.

The Pentium, MIPS, DEC, HP, Motorola, IBM, Cyrix, AMD and NexGen chips,
will cause demand for Intel's 486 chips to drop with prices following.
Note that in high tech just having some competing product announced can
cut into sales of current products (announced by competitors or the same
company - for example, Osborne Computers killed itself by announcing a
future product too soon).  Intel's bread and butter starts to evaporate.

Following DEC's example, other companies will come out with x86 binary
translators.  Over the next year MIPS, HP, Motorola, and SUN will each
come out with binary translators to go from x86 code to their systems.  
A year from now each of these companies (except Sun) will have systems 
that, after translation, run 486 code faster than any Intel systems. 

One year from now, while still selling lots of chips, Intel will be 
losing money.

****************************************************************************

HISTORY:

IBM decided to use Intel CPUs because they believed that between Intel and
the other companies that were second sourcing Intel's chips (like AMD)
there would be plenty of supply and the prices would be low.  Just in
case, IBM got the rights to make Intel compatible CPUs if it ever wanted
to.  Up through the 286 Intel had second sources for their chips.  The 
chips were cheap and plentiful.  But the 286 was the last chip where Intel 
did this.  Intel decided to go back on its second source policy (something 
AMD claims breaks at least one contract) and bet the company that customers 
were locked in enough that they would have to keep buying Intel CPUs.

For 5 years only Intel made 386 chips.  However in the 2 years after that
Intel lost almost all of the 386 market.  For 4 years only Intel made 486
chips.  For the last 9 months there have been various supply problems
(like an order in November for 486 66Mhz chips might have taken more than
3 months to ship).  Also prices have been rather high.  Now IBM, AMD, and
Cyrix all make 486 chips.  


GENERAL PROBLEM:

Intel has had such high profit margins lately that many companies are
attempting to get in on the action in one way or another. 

For the past 7 years Intel has always been at least 4 years ahead of its
competition as far as having the highest performance chip that runs
DOS/Windows software.  Intel does not have any lead as far as Windows NT
software (both MIPS and DEC systems are faster) and not much of a lead in
the x86 compatible CPUs.  IBM, Cyrix and NexGen should all have Pentium
level CPUs within 6 months.  

Within about 6 months there will be CPUs from MIPS that are about the
power of the Pentium at about 1/10th the cost and 1/10th the electricity
use (fantastic for portables).  Binary translators will make it possible
to convert software from x86 to other CPU types with little performance
hit (as opposed to the current x86 interpreters).  DEC has demo-ed such a
translator and I expect others will also have translators within 6 months.

Systems houses such as IBM, DEC, HP, SGI, SUN are all making their own
chips these days.  They all realize that, with todays technology, the 
best price/performance computers use microprocessors.  A microprocessor 
is no longer a thing that only a few places like Intel make.  

If Intel's prices go down, even if unit volumes stay just as high, their
profits will really be hurt (in that case a dollar less in sales price is
a dollar less in profits).


[...]

SOFTWARE IS MUCH MORE PORTABLE (Interpreters):

In the past only Intel's chips ran MS-DOS or Windows, or the thousands of
applications that run these that systems.   There is starting to be a
number of ways that people can run Windows/DOS applications on non-Intel
systems.  Windows NT comes with something that lets any chip interpret
Intel instructions.  This interpreting hurts performance but a MIPS or DEC
chip can interpret x86 code at low end 486 speeds (it really translates
code the first time through loops).  NT is supposed to be out by the end
of July.  It is known to work on DEC's alpha and the SGI/MIPS chips and we
have good reasons to believe that Motorola/IBM and HP will also be
supporting NT on their chips.

Sun (800) USE-SUN-X has a system called "WABI" that lets Windows programs
run on Unix systems.  They will be working with Novel so it runs on
machines using Novel's Unix as well as Sun's. 

Insignia Solutions (415) 694-7600 has a licensing agreement with Microsoft
that lets them support Windows on Unix or on the Mac.  Microsoft is using
Insignia Solutions software in Windows NT so that RISC CPUs can run x86
code.  Insignia has been selling "SoftPC" for awhile now.

Apple has software (demonstrated recently working for more than 100
applications) that lets Mac software run on a PowerPC based system with
very good net performance.

One common trick (used by Sun and Apple and Microsoft) is to have the
systems software recompiled for the new architecture (especially routines
for graphics) so that calls to the operating system are running at native
speed.  In windowing software it is common to spend about half the time in
the operating system, so getting the systems software in native mode
really helps.

[...]

PEOPLE SWITCHING FROM 486 TO PENTIUM COSTS INTEL:

The 486 is far more profitable for Intel to produce than the Pentium.  The
Pentium is about 3.5 times the size of the 486.  This means that you get
much lower yields.  Current 486 yields are about 50% (net experts say).
If Pentium yields were as good per square centimeter as the 486 yields (they
are not yet this good) then the yield would be about 0.5^3.5 ~= 1/11 Since
the 486 yield is 1/2 this is about 5.5 times worse.  The fab line is
limited in the number of wafers it can make and the cost of chips like
this is really based on the number of wafers it takes.  With an estimate
of 1/5.5 the yield and 3.5 times the area Intel is getting something like
1/19th the number of good chips per month if making Pentiums.  So even
after initial production problems are solved, and even at twice the 486
price, Intel makes something like 10 times more money off a fab line
making 486 chips than Pentiums.  

Intel marketing has kept the price of the Pentium kind of low (compared to
where supply and demand would have it) in order not to look too bad when
compared to RISC chips.  However, this means that the Pentium cuts into
demand for 486 chips.  Also, since the price is sort of artificially low
there is a shortage (i.e. a long wait to get Pentium chips).  

So the RISC competition at the high end is already causing Intel problems.


[...]

NEW CPU ARCHITECTURES:

For years the higher performance of RISC chips was irrelevant since they
could not run the PC software.  This is no longer true.

MIPS and friends are going after Intel's market with a vengeance.
There are at least 7 companies planning on making Windows NT PCs using
MIPS chips.  The existing chips are as fast to maybe 50% faster than the
Pentium.  They are shipping today (no 6 month waits).  The R4400 which is
about 50% faster sells for $690.  It seems people are and will be waiting
for a long time to get Pentium chips.  There are also some amazing MIPS
chips coming (see Microprocessor Report May 31 1993).  The first (from NEC
at only $70!!!) is really low power (2 watts vs Pentiums 16) and equal in
performance to the Pentium.  You can get info on this by calling 1-800 I
GO MIPS and with a touch tone phone asking the machine to FAX you
Documents No. 205 and 206.  You can also call James Mac Hale at MIPS at
415-390-4560. The other is about 30% faster (from IDT) and a bit more than
$70.  Since MIPS runs NT these can run all of the Intel software.  At $70
this is twice as fast as Intel's 486 which costs like $500 (Intel's bread
and butter).  These chips are smaller than the 486 and so very cheap to
make (like 1/10th to 1/20th the cost of the Pentium).

[...]


-----

Continued...
 
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307222205.AA19037@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Interesting overview of the market we're talking about - part 2
To: riscy@sword.eng.pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:05:02 PDT
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---------

BINARY TRANSLATORS:

The x86 interpreters (as comes standard with NT) have a serious
performance hit.  Binary translators have much less of a performance hit.
The basic idea is to dis-assemble a binary, translate it to the new
assembly language, optimize that, then assemble that.  Once completed the
software has been ported to the new architecture without needing the
source code.

[...]

DEC has 3 versions of binary translators.  One for translating from VAX to
Alpha, one for MIPS to Alpha, and one for x86 to Alpha.  It seems these
work on the vast majority of applications.  The performance hit is
minimal.  If you compile the SpecInt92 software for MIPS and then
translate it to Alpha it only runs 10% slower than if you had compiled it
for Alpha.  DEC demonstrated an x86 to Alpha binary translator at Spring
Comdex.  The Alpha has a very good chance of running x86 code faster than
the Pentium (probably even if optimized for the Pentium).  The new 300 Mhz
Alpha (December time frame) may give double or triple the Pentium
performance on 486 code (assuming translator is tuned by December).  At
least the first 2 translators DEC did were designed to be used by random
end-users, the x86 one probably is too.  DEC demo-ed their x86 to Alpha
translator at the spring Comdex (around 5/24/93) (info from post by Dileep
Bhandarkar bhandarkar@msbcs.enet.dec.com).  Even if it is not ready to
ship with their first release of NT (estimated to be a month after
Microsoft ships NT), DEC will be talking about it.  Also note that it does
not need to work on all programs - even if half the time it says "sorry,
use the emulator" it is still a win over no translator.  

[...]


PC MARKET IS VERY COMPETITIVE:

Margins in the PC market are not very good (ask DELL and Apple).  If PC
vendors can make systems using a $70 MIPS chip instead of a $950 Pentium
you can bet they will want to (if not DELL at least vendors like Compaq
who still realize that computers are a fast moving field).  If PC vendors
are having trouble getting Pentium chips (and they seem to be) there is
all the more reason for them to make RISC systems.

Intel has also pissed off a number of PC vendors both by not being able to
ship and by threatening them over using Cyrix or AMD parts. 

Compaq had promised to develop a MIPS based PC.  There was an "ACE"
agreement between Microsoft, MIPS, and Compaq to develop a new Windows NT
system.  Compaq fired their president and changed plans.  They said they
were told the Pentium was going to be out soon and be as fast as the MIPS
chips.  They have hinted that they may be reconsidering the idea of RISC
based systems.

[...]

The June PC World reviewed 25 low cost 486 PCs and picked the top 5.  Two
of those were based on Cyrix chips - including the very top machine.  In
today's low cost PCs (like $1000 to $1,500) the difference of $100 in CPU
is significant.

[...]

MIPS IS A KILLER:

At a CPU price of $70, MIPS/NEC must be planning on selling millions of
chips.  The development costs (design and fab setup) on this chip was most
probably over over $100 mil.  Intel is said to have spent about $500 mil
on the Pentium - not sure how reliable that was - but I do know Intel is
spending around $2 bil to set up 2 fabs.

The very reason Intel got where it did is that it used to second source
its chips, making their chips attractive to IBM.  Today MIPS,
DEC/Mitsubishi, and Motorola/IBM each have this attraction but Intel
itself does not (and IBM has started making their own chips) (though
AMD/Cyrix sort of act like second sources for Intel).

Other companies such as DEC, Motorola or HP may have $70 chips coming too.


BUT UNIX CLAIMED SOFTWARE WAS PORTABLE TOO:

In the past Unix has claimed to make software portable between different
machine times.  The claim was that you "just need to recompile".  However,
since each vendor had their own Unix implementation, this never really
worked.  Applications had to be converted to run on the different Unix
types.  The total Unix market is about 2% the number of machines as the PC
market. However this was sliced up to Sun, HP, DEC, IBM, SGI, etc,  each
needing a software port.  This meant a lot of work and support for each
small slice of the market.  Even so, there is a fair amount of software
available.

Windows NT will come from Microsoft no matter what machine type it is to
run on.  Software will really "just recompile" for different machine
types.  The NT market is more or less expected to pass the size of the
Unix market within 12 months.  Porting an existing Windows application to
NT is said to be easy (trivial if it is a Win32 application).  Given how
easy it will be to support other machine types once an application works
on NT, software vendors will do so.   At the very least Microsoft will be
providing its software for x86/MIPS/DEC based machines, which is already
lots of software.

Users will probably be able to get "updates" for their existing x86
programs that come with MIPS/DEC binaries as well.  So if they have a $300
program and the upgrade cost, say $100, they can move it to a MIPS machine
for $100 (i.e. they don't need to pay full new price).  For most of their
applications binary translators will probably work, and for the rest the
emulator of windows NT is probably fast enough, but for the few
applications where performance really matters they can pay for an update.

Once the software takes off, there will be no question for a new user who
does not already own lots of x86 code.  If a user can buy the software he
wants for a machine that is about half the cost he will go that route.
Given that a the MIPS machine should be at least $1,000 cheaper (support 
is also cheaper since 40 Mhz external and the $70 MIPS CPU vs $950 Pentium) 
a user can justify the costs of a few software updates (they might even 
have been planning on getting updates anyway).


BUT PEOPLE TOOK YEARS LEAVE 386 for 486:

The first 486 systems, as shown in September 1989 Byte page 95, had prices
from $18,000 to $40,000.  Many of the computers advertised in that issue
were 286 systems.  The 386 systems had prices of $2,500 to $13,000.  So
the low end 486 was 7 times as expensive as the low end 386.  Given the
large price difference it makes sense that most people were not in a hurry
to switch to 486.

Today ALR (800) 257-1230 has a Pentium system for $2,500.  This is not really
that much above the price of even the cheap 468DX2/66 systems, about twice 
the cost.  Today almost nobody advertises 386 desktop system.  Given how much 
smaller the price differences are this time, a much large percentage of the 
people buying computers are going to want to buy ones with the new CPU.

Back when the 486 came out the prices were such that supply and demand met 
just fine.  However, today I think we have the makings of a massive 
Pentium shortage.



RUMORS:

Apple is ahead of schedule and so will be shipping PowerPCs in time for
X-mass sales (i.e. not wait for superbowl in Jan to be exactly 10 years
after Mac announcement as has been plan).

IBM will be shipping PowerPCs in Sept.

[...]

POSSIBLE SHORT TERM EFFECTS:

Consumer and business confidence is down compared to end of last year so
people are probably ordering less PCs.  The backlog of orders has probably
been satisfied.  Thus we could see a "glut" of x86 CPUs.

Unit sales of i486 drop off a bit as people wait for Pentiums/NT/RISC.

People planning on upgrading to P24T (Pentium) just get cheap 486/33
systems (where Intel gets $200/CPU and not $500).  This is called "less
favorable product mix".

It may turn out to be true that most "Pentium-upgradable" systems are not
- see Electronic Buyers News, July 5th.  In that case people may not buy
so many 486 systems and just wait for Pentium systems.  This may not be a
big problem as a small fan mounted on the chip may solve it (if you can
get power for the fan).

Production of i486 down as some fab(s) move from 486 to Pentium.

IBM/Cyrix/AMD take another 10% of Intel's current 486 sales.

Prices of i486s drop.

MPP sales drop sharply (though only few % of Intel's sales it hurts
profits).

Higher capital expenditure as they rush to expand production capacity for
Pentiums without sacrificing current 486 production.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It takes around 3 years to get a fab line built and running.  They are
expensive (current ones are around $1 bil, though in the past they were
much cheaper).  Intel has only been really rich for the last 9 months.
They have not had time to take their really great profits and put them
into fabs.  As a result, their fabs are OK, but not really top notch.
Intel is currently using 0.8 micron, and switching to 0.6 next year.  IBM
(who had money 3 years ago and is only poor for the last 9 months or so)
already has 0.35 micron fabs.  NEC also has better fabs.  Better fabs mean
faster cheaper chips and higher volumes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

PowerPC 603 is supposed to be faster than the 601 and real cheap, like
$50.  Not sure exactly how long till it comes out.  MIPS has a $50 chip on
the way too.  DEC and HP are also coming out with low cost CPUs.  These
are probably all as powerful or more powerful than the Pentium.  With
binary translators it is not clear why anyone would pay more than $50 for
a CPU.  The current $950 price on a Pentium is not going to last, nor is
the $500 on 486.


[...]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


****************************************************************************
POSSIBLE WAYS INTEL MIGHT BE A FINE INVESTMENT:
(a look at some opposing opinions)
****************************************************************************

[...]

Maybe Intel has a top-secret GaAs 400 Mhz 486 that they are about to
announce.  MIPS has made a GaAs version of their architecture (not as a
product) and the 486 has few enough transistors that a GaAs version might
work.  However, the 400 Mhz part would be hard, and without a reasonable
sized on-chip cache (very doubtful they could swing that) the real
performance would not be too impressive.  Also, it would not be cheap.

[...]

Intel may get legal action to stop PC makers from shipping Microsoft
Windows or OS2 with systems using AMD/Cyrix/etc chips.  Intel is trying to
use the International Trade Commission to stop Twinhead (Taiwanese
company) from selling PCs with Windows pre-installed since Windows uses
the VM layout covered in some Intel patent.  This is bogus as Intel should
be suing Microsoft.  Microsoft sent a letter to the ITC saying they
thought that it was inappropriate for the ITC to take action on this as it
was not really a trade issue but a domestic patent dispute.  In the worst
case they ship the systems without Windows installed and Microsoft gives a
good price to people who show they have recently purchased a system from
Twinhead.

RISC really works better with cheap DRAM.  Code can take nearly twice the
memory as in a CISC (you need more DRAM to rum Windows NT on a RISC
system, like 16 MB vs 12 MB).  By claiming "dumping", Intel got the
government to take action that has kept DRAM prices from dropping much
over the last 7 years (went up then is now a bit below - but nothing like
the factor of 2 every 1.5 years that there used to be).  However, as more
and more DRAMs are produced outside Japan and as more PCs are produced
outside the US, the US/Japanese government controls on DRAM will stop
working.  Note that PC makers outside the USA have a big competitive
advantage over USA based ones at this point, thanks to Intel.  Since DRAM
in the USA is really way overpriced at this point, it is more apt to take
a major drop than to go up or stay at these levels.  Still, at todays high
prices the extra 4 MB for the RISC system is about $100, which is not much
compared to the CPU price differences.

FLASH is an important emerging technology and Intel is leading in this
market.  Though still small, it could become a very large market very
soon.  One problem with this that battery backed up DRAM could be more
cost effective if DRAM drops like I think it will.  Also, Intel had
serious production problems and this has made it easier for others to
enter the market.  Also, Intel is in patent disputes with Rohm over FLASH.
Intel seems to be violating Rohm's patents and so may not have rights to
make FLASH chips. 

Intel could get legal action claiming that NEC's $70 R4200 CPUs is
"dumping" so that the government stops NEC from competing inside the USA.
However, there is a big market outside the US and MIPS can get other
companies inside the US to make the chip.

The danger of legal action is that the more Intel does the more chance
others have of getting an anti-trust "restraint of trade" suit against
Intel to stick.  Cyrix has had such a suit in progress since Dec 1990.
Not sure, but AMD is probably working this angle too.

Maybe the P6 is much better than the Pentium and can be out within a year.
The year part is the trick.  Also, it is probably twice as many
transistors, so yields will be even more of a problem.

--------
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 22 18:13:23 1993
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307222211.AA19372@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Re: NEC ARC chip set info
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:11:47 PDT
In-Reply-To: <199307222057.AA22063@quip.eecs.umich.edu>; from "Youda He" at Jul 22, 93 4:57 pm
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> I got more info for NEC ARC100/150 chip set. I called a NEC tech people,
> they said the schematic and Gerber are pretty free, all they wanted 
> is to sell their hardware, the design is one that they have tried and worked
> the firwares are from MIPS, so they don't really know. they provide almost
> no support, since they know the chip set works... all software support
> are from MIPS or third party. ARC chip set+Vr4400 are $100/set at 10K quantity
> the real cost for small (10-100) quantities are determined by distributor. ARC
> manufacturing kits cost $5000.
> 
> So...? 

My understanding is that a r4k of any sort cannot be had for less than
us$700 in 100 quantities at the moment.  If this is not the case, then
what you are suggesting becomes a real option!  Can you give prices for
the parts that we need to construct the core of the system (CPU + peripheral
controllers) in quantities of 100.

-- 
Neil Russell		(The wizard from OZ)
Pyramid Technology			Email:  caret@pyramid.com
3860 N. First Street			Voice:  (408) 428-7302
San Jose, CA 95134-1702			  FAX:  (408) 428-8845
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Fri Jul 23 06:19:58 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: VESA mips board
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 03:33:41 -0500 (EDT)
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I just talked to a guy who has some information on a MIPS 4k 50 Mhz VESA board
with 128k (Max 1MB) cache on it and nothing else for $1750.

Kinda slick idea since the VESA bus basically IS the memory bus.

Minimizes cost/design maximizes functionality and reuse of hardware.

Just another FYI.

It seems that the riscy list is just a bit ahead of it's time the MIPS
entry into the PC world seems to be growing daily.

It seems that Acer, Compaq, and Tangent are now selling Mips 4k systems
with on board SCSI and ethernet.

I read the numerous posts from neil and it seemed the $70 mips/nec chip
was a 40/80 Mhz chip???  Anyone got some more info on these up and coming
sub $100 chips?

Anyone going to HOT CHIPS??? I'm going to try...

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Sun Jul 25 04:41:06 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Mips on vesa
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 04:36:15 -0500 (EDT)
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The original mips design seemed to be basically mips+simm slots on ISA bus and
seems to have been dropped because of ISA limitations and board space.

(see previous msg about the commercial version for mips 4k on VESA for $1750)

How about one simpler.  Just a mips chip (whatever we can afford)+cache 
on a vesa card.  As I understand it VESA is basically the pc memory bus.

Running on the VESA bus at 25-33 Mhz will give you 100-128 MB/sec bandwdith
to memory, this makes a local cache important but seems workable.

Everything would be reused.  People could buy the ISE/VESA card of there choice.
A 486/25 sx is $215 or so would be used as a host.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 03:59:34 1993
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips on vesa 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 25 Jul 1993 04:36:15 CDT."
             <9307250837.AA10151@gossip.pyramid.com> 
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 01:56:06 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


    The original mips design seemed to be basically mips+simm slots 

Plus cheap onboard SCSI, serial ports, video, and perhaps ethernet.
    
    on ISA bus and

Not on an ISA bus, but with an ISA bus for people who insist on 
having PC-compatable expansion slots. 

    seems to have been dropped because of ISA limitations and board space.

IMHO, it seems to have been postponed because of

1. No suitable DMA/DRAM/peripherial controller is available - 
	the 3730 isn't shipping and the Visual MOM chipset lacks 
	support for slave mode DMA. (Has anyone looked at the 
	NEC chipset?)

2.  The 4200 would be faster, and should be cheaper than the 
	3081.  Availability at this point is questionable.$

3.  In 6-9 months, IDT ships the Orion, an R4000 compatable chip.
	Also faster and cheaper than the 3081.

    How about one simpler.  Just a mips chip (whatever we can afford)+cache 
    on a vesa card.  

It depends on what our goals are. IMHO, we need to clearly define what these
are before getting furthur into the technical aspects of things.

    As I understand it VESA is basically the pc memory bus.
    
    Running on the VESA bus at 25-33 Mhz will give you 100-128 MB/sec bandwdith
    to memory, this makes a local cache important but seems workable.
    
    Everything would be reused.  People could buy the ISE/VESA card of there ch
   oice.
    A 486/25 sx is $215 or so would be used as a host.

For the people who want a "workstation", the motherboard solution
wins hands down.

+ $200 SCSI (You can't buy large IDE drives at any price)
+ $200 video (VRAM based local bus)
+ $50 16550 serial board
+ ethernet ???

Total : $615 + ???

Compared to a motherboard solution of 

+ $90 main board
+ $25 SCSI
+ $20 (serial ports, either one of the integrated chips or a 16552)
+ $100 video (1M, VRAM based (ie, 1152x900x256) $60 for 2M )
+ ethernet ???

Total : $235 + ???


 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 08:41:46 1993
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From: Peter Holzer <hp@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307261236.AA08234@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Mips on vesa
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:36:13 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <199307260756.AA05290@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU>; from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 26, 93 1:56 am
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You (Drew Eckhardt) wrote:
> 
> 
>     The original mips design seemed to be basically mips+simm slots 
>     on ISA bus and
> 
> Not on an ISA bus, but with an ISA bus for people who insist on 
> having PC-compatable expansion slots. 

No, the original project was indeed, as Bill wrote, to build a card
with a MIPS processor and some memory to put into a PC. This was soon
changed to build a motherboard, however (But you should know that,
Drew. The first mail I got on this list was by Neil answering (among
other things) your claim that there isn't enough real estate on an isa
board).

> IMHO, it seems to have been postponed because of
> 
> 1. No suitable DMA/DRAM/peripherial controller is available - 
> 	the 3730 isn't shipping and the Visual MOM chipset lacks 
> 	support for slave mode DMA. (Has anyone looked at the 
> 	NEC chipset?)
> 
> 2.  The 4200 would be faster, and should be cheaper than the 
> 	3081.  Availability at this point is questionable.$
> 
> 3.  In 6-9 months, IDT ships the Orion, an R4000 compatable chip.
> 	Also faster and cheaper than the 3081.

It seems so. But this happened only recently, whereas Bill was talking
about a decision made a month ago. But I don't like going back to the
mips+ram-on-a-card idea. I like it even less if its going to be a vesa
card. I have an old 25MHz 386 without vesa. When I buy a new computer
it it will either be a high-end 486 or some RISC workstation. I will
not buy a 486sx just to plug a crippled mips motherboard into it.

	hp

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 09:27:56 1993
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Message-Id: <199307261323.AA25469@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at, riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips on vesa 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:36:13 MST."
             <9307261236.AA08234@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at> 
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 07:23:11 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


--------

    You (Drew Eckhardt) wrote:
    > 
    > 
    >     The original mips design seemed to be basically mips+simm slots 
    >     on ISA bus and
    > 
    > Not on an ISA bus, but with an ISA bus for people who insist on 
    > having PC-compatable expansion slots. 
    
    No, the original project was indeed, as Bill wrote, to build a card
    with a MIPS processor and some memory to put into a PC. 
    changed to build a motherboard, however (But you should know that,
    Drew. The first mail I got on this list was by Neil answering (among
    other things) your claim that there isn't enough real estate on an isa
    board).

If we're being pedantic, yes.  However, Neil quickly conceeded that we 
needed a motherboard if we were going to get any performance out of the
system as a whole, and all recent discussions have been about a system
with a mother board.
    
    > IMHO, it seems to have been postponed because of
    > 
    > 1. No suitable DMA/DRAM/peripherial controller is available - 
    > 	the 3730 isn't shipping and the Visual MOM chipset lacks 
    > 	support for slave mode DMA. (Has anyone looked at the 
    > 	NEC chipset?)
    > 
    > 2.  The 4200 would be faster, and should be cheaper than the 
    > 	3081.  Availability at this point is questionable.$
    > 
    > 3.  In 6-9 months, IDT ships the Orion, an R4000 compatable chip.
    > 	Also faster and cheaper than the 3081.
    
    It seems so. But this happened only recently, whereas Bill was talking
    about a decision made a month ago. But I don't like going back to the
    mips+ram-on-a-card idea. 

Agreed.  Performance and total system price would be lousy for people 
looking for a workstation/complete system, who seem to be the majority
of the riscy list readers.

    I like it even less if its going to be a vesa card. I have an old 
    25MHz 386 without vesa. When I buy a new computer it it will either be 
    a high-end 486 or some RISC workstation. 

Agreed.  

With the VESA solution, you get a PC with a MIPS CPU, not a workstation 
with reasonable I/O and video.

    I will not buy a 486sx just to plug a crippled mips motherboard into it.

Like I said, the motherboard solution makes the most sense (performance
and price wise) for the people who want a "workstation", ie the majority
of the riscy list readers.

For people wanting a *simple* solution *now* and not in six months, the 
VESA board is the only viable choice.

NEC's 4200 and chipset look like they're happening now and not in six
months, so I'll talk to NEC today and see if I can get some information 
on availability of their 4200 and chipset, as well as technical 
specifications (the Visual MOM chipset sounded great until we got the 
specs that showed it had no slave mode DMA, no variable bus sizing for 
peripherials, etc).

--------

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 09:41:46 1993
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From: Peter Holzer <hp@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-Id: <9307261335.AA09694@quasi.vmars.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Mips on vesa
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:35:29 MET DST
In-Reply-To: <199307261323.AA25469@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>; from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 26, 93 7:23 am
Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at
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You (Drew Eckhardt) wrote:
> 
>     
>     No, the original project was indeed, as Bill wrote, to build a card
>     with a MIPS processor and some memory to put into a PC. 
> 
> If we're being pedantic, yes.  However, Neil quickly conceeded that we 
> needed a motherboard if we were going to get any performance out of the
> system as a whole, and all recent discussions have been about a system
> with a mother board.

Yup.

> Like I said, the motherboard solution makes the most sense (performance
> and price wise) for the people who want a "workstation", ie the majority
> of the riscy list readers.

Agreed.

> For people wanting a *simple* solution *now* and not in six months, the 
> VESA board is the only viable choice.

Well, `now' is probably somewhat too optimistic, but I agree that it
will be completed in a lot less than 6 months, since all the necessary
parts are available, so all we have to do is design it. However, as you
said the majority of the risciers is interested in a workstation. How
many people could live with a vesa board? I certainly can't. I can
however wait for six months or even a year (of course by then there
might be R4000-based workstations available for similar cost).

> NEC's 4200 and chipset look like they're happening now and not in six
> months, so I'll talk to NEC today and see if I can get some information 
> on availability of their 4200 and chipset, as well as technical 
> specifications .

Hope you get something.

	hp

-- 
|    _  | Peter J. Holzer                       | Think of it   |
| |_|_) | Technical University Vienna           | as evolution  |
| | |   | Computer Science/Real-Time Systems    | in action!    |
| __/   | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |     Tony Rand |
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 12:09:58 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:05:28 +0200
Message-Id: <9307261505.AA09390@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA09390; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:05:28 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  VESA mips board
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

Hi Mipsers,

after days of being horribly busy, I tried to gather some
informations about the ARCset chips and the NEC R4200, also
called VrX.

1. The R4200, you won't believe it, is *AVAILABLE NOW*.
   I don't have prices yet, but I will get them soon, probably next week.
2. The ARCset chips are also *AVAILABLE*.
   I will receive documentation next week. Prices coming soon.
3. The "Application Note" for building a workstation
   around the R4x00 is *not* yet available in english
   (currently only in japanese - can someone read this ?),
   but will be end of this year.
4. I've found a very friendly NEC engineer who will give
   me access to all stuff he has in his office. We will
   have a meeting in Mid-August (he's in vacation until then)
   to find out what's usable for us.

Comments ?

Andy



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        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
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From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 15:51:18 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Mips On VESA
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:45:59 -0500 (EDT)
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I'm not against a reasonably priced MIPS motherboard.  So far the solutions 
seem to be in the > $800 range for a machine with a tiny cache and dumb video.

If it can be built with the available talent so that we can built it and
it works, great!  I'll buy one.

On the otherhand design complexity/development costs could be a problem.
How many board revisions are typical for a board like this?  What's the 
possiblility that a 40 Mhz cpu+ram+isa+ethernet+video+serial is going to
work the first time?  How much does it cost per redesign?

I was just suggesting a VESA card with enough sockets/simms for up to 1 MB
cache.  That's it, no RAM on board.  I'd guess the cost would be around $100
for the board, + cache chips + cpu.  This would give a wide range of 
price/performance options, after all VESA is basically a memory bus.

I don't see any performance problems with a mips chip in a vesa slot, It seems 
the easiest to design, and could offer a large range of price/performace 
alternatives.   If you see any performance problems please let me know.

I'd probably buy a 486 25 sx motherboard for $180, add my video card,
add my serial ports, and my ide controller+IDE drive.  Then buy the mips VESA 
card ($100)+512k cache (what $200?)+cpu.

As a side effect the VESA card could probably sell in higher numbers becuase
it's cheaper and it's less of a risk for those that are scared that the linux 
port won't happen, minimum cost of entry would be cpu+$100.  I'd imagine a 
FAST cpu on a VESA card that runs linux could become quite popular, allowing 
us to spread the development costs around. 

So for $180(486sx mtb)+$100(mips board)+$200(cache)+Mips cpu(?) I'd spend $480+
cpu for a system that has 512k cache, 100 MB/s cache <-> ram, slow video, 800k 
/sec bandwidth on my $298 340 MB ide drive.  I would probably buy a S3-805 for 
$150 or so to improve the video speed.

As far as I can tell none of this hurts workstation like performance.  For
those that can't live with 800k/sec get a better controller.

The proposed configurations so far have had very small caches, and dumb frame 
buffers.  I'd prefer to pay $150 for an 1 MB s3-805 then $100 or so for
a on board dumb frame buffer.  The load on the cpu and memory bus would be 
much less.  Will the dumb frame buffer handle the timings for my interlaced 
color display?

So in summary give me a do it all motherboard that I can afford and I'll be
a happy camper.  If not give me a cache+cpu on a VESA card and I'll still
have a fast workstation like machine.

I'm not a EE/hardware person so I'm welcome to corrections but it seems
that a VESA card would be more likely to be produced then a FULL motherboard.

BTW I believe there are now mips 4k, and power pc VESA cards available now.
--
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Mon Jul 26 21:10:34 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Mips Chips from NEC
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 21:05:00 -0500 (EDT)
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I received the data sheets on the 4000/4400 PC/SC

Here's a quick summary:  
	Part #       package   Power Cache 
4000PC	PD30400RJ-50 179 pin    5v   8k+8k
	PD30400RP-50 179 pin+HS 5v   8k+8k
4000SC	PD30401RJ-50 447 pin    5v   8k+8k
	PD30401RP-50 447 pin+HS 5v   8k+8k

4400PC	PD30410RJ-(50,67,75)  179 pin    5v 	16k+16k 
	PD30410RP-(50,67,75)  179 pin+HS 5v	16k+16k 
        PD30410LRJ-(50,67,75) 179 pin    3.3v 	16k+16k 
	PD30410LRP-(50,67,75) 179 pin+HS 3.3v	16k+16k 

4400SC	PD30411RJ-(50,67,75)  447 pin    5v 	16k+16k 
	PD30411RP-(50,67,75)  447 pin+HS 5v	16k+16k 
        PD30411LRJ-(50,67,75) 447 pin    3.3v 	16k+16k 
	PD30411LRP-(50,67,75) 447 pin+HS 3.3v	16k+16k 

HS means with heat-sink, all chips are ceramic. The last two digits of the
part number is the external clock speed, internal is twice that.

Main difference between 4000 and 4400 is double the cache and faster clocks.

Main difference between PC and SC is the the the SC supports a 128 bit 
secondary cache interface support.  But based on there diagrams the
PC supports a secondary cache, just not 128 bits wide.

All chips share: 
	64 bit microprocessor, integer, fp, registers, and virtual addresses.
	Dual instruction issue with no restrictions.
	32 64 bit general purpose registers and 16 64 bit fp registers.
	one level deep uncached store buffer.

The 4400 is around 94 specint and 105 specfp (seperate source)

The 4000 is listed as 62 specint, and 63 specfp.

The 4200 is mentioned in passing:  plastic, 1.5 Watts, 80 Mhz internal clock,
55 SPECint92 and 30 SPECfp92.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 27 03:09:24 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:59:34 +0200
Message-Id: <9307270659.AA10308@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA10308; Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:59:34 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re:  Mips Chips from NEC
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> I received the data sheets on the 4000/4400 PC/SC
> 
> Here's a quick summary:  
> 	Part #       package   Power Cache 
>4000PC	PD30400RJ-50 179 pin    5v   8k+8k
>  	PD30400RP-50 179 pin+HS 5v   8k+8k
>4000SC	PD30401RJ-50 447 pin    5v   8k+8k
>	PD30401RP-50 447 pin+HS 5v   8k+8k
>
>4400PC	PD30410RJ-(50,67,75)  179 pin    5v 	16k+16k 
>	PD30410RP-(50,67,75)  179 pin+HS 5v	16k+16k 
>        PD30410LRJ-(50,67,75) 179 pin    3.3v 	16k+16k 
>	PD30410LRP-(50,67,75) 179 pin+HS 3.3v	16k+16k 
>
>4400SC	PD30411RJ-(50,67,75)  447 pin    5v 	16k+16k 
>	PD30411RP-(50,67,75)  447 pin+HS 5v	16k+16k 
>       PD30411LRJ-(50,67,75) 447 pin    3.3v 	16k+16k 
>	PD30411LRP-(50,67,75) 447 pin+HS 3.3v	16k+16k 
>
>HS means with heat-sink, all chips are ceramic. The last two digits of the
>part number is the external clock speed, internal is twice that.
>
>Main difference between 4000 and 4400 is double the cache and faster clocks.
>
>Main difference between PC and SC is the the the SC supports a 128 bit 
>secondary cache interface support.  But based on there diagrams the
>PC supports a secondary cache, just not 128 bits wide.
>
>All chips share: 
>	64 bit microprocessor, integer, fp, registers, and virtual addresses.
>	Dual instruction issue with no restrictions.
>	32 64 bit general purpose registers and 16 64 bit fp registers.
>	one level deep uncached store buffer.
>
>The 4400 is around 94 specint and 105 specfp (seperate source)
>
>The 4000 is listed as 62 specint, and 63 specfp.
>
>The 4200 is mentioned in passing:  plastic, 1.5 Watts, 80 Mhz internal clock,
>55 SPECint92 and 30 SPECfp92.

Yes, and the main difference between the R4200 and the other R4x00 CPUs
are that is *not* pincompatibel, that it has the old R3000 pipeline and
a simpler FPU. Note: This is what I've heard. I will receive data sheets
this week. Perhaps things have changed...
However, if the R4200 is no real R4x00 CPU I would suggest to use
one of the others, even if it is more expensive at the moment.
Are we going to build a R4000 machine now ? I would appreciate this !

Andy

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From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 27 03:47:40 1993
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From: ronald%csunix.urc.kun.nl@kunrc1.urc.kun.nl (Ronald Schalk)
Message-Id: <9307270738.AA21809@csunix.urc.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 09:38:12 +0200 (CET)
In-Reply-To: <9307270106.AA27204@gossip.pyramid.com> from "Bill Broadley" at Jul 26, 93 09:05:00 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
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> 
> I received the data sheets on the 4000/4400 PC/SC
> 
> Here's a quick summary:  

<specs of chips deleted>

> 
> The 4400 is around 94 specint and 105 specfp (seperate source)
> 
> The 4000 is listed as 62 specint, and 63 specfp.
> 
> The 4200 is mentioned in passing:  plastic, 1.5 Watts, 80 Mhz internal clock,
> 55 SPECint92 and 30 SPECfp92.

Do you also have some priceinformation on these things. Maybe it's also
interesting the keep in mind that it would be nice if there are
pin-compatible second-sourced versions available. This could drop the
price within a couple of months, especially because a LOT of sources are
predicting a HUGE rise in sales of R4K chips.


 ********************************************************************
 * ing. Ronald Schalk                                               *
 * sectie COOS                                                      *
 * Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening (UCI)                 *
 * Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen (KUN)                           *
 * e-mail : R.Schalk@uci.kun.nl   snailmail: Geert Grooteplein 41   *
 * tel.   : +31 80 617997                    6525 GA Nijmegen       *
 * fax   :  +31 80 617979                    Nederland              *
 ********************************************************************
 
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Tue Jul 27 04:06:58 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: arc 100 150 manufacturing kits
To: riscy@pyramid.com (Mips 3000)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 04:00:53 -0500 (EDT)
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I got some info on the arc 100 and 150 kits.

They seem to be centered around the MCT-ADR address path controller and a
MCT-DP data path controller.

MCT-ADR: (PD31432) 240 pin PQFP package 1.8 watts
	Interfaces to the Vr4000 microprocessors
	8 to 64 MB ram
	video (peak 33 MB/s write 66 MB/sec read) max 8MB vram, 8MB dram
	Control logic for pc-style peripheral devices
	8 slave DMA channels
	I/O cache controller (8 32 byte fully associative cache blocks)
	1-15 millisecond interval counter

Memory controller provides:
	1-8,16,32 byte writes
	1-8,16,32 byte reads
	8 byte video reads
	and 1-8 byte video write

DMA controller supports 8 seperate DMA controllers, each is able to
support a single read or write I/O data flow to and from the system memory and
the I/O device.  Each controller has a channel mode,channel enable, 
channel byte count, and channel address register.

A diagram shows the 8 devices as mouse and keyboard, parallel and serial ports,
prom, sound, NVRAM,floppy, rt clock, scsi, and ethernet

MCT-DP (PD31431) data path controller
Chip is basically a crossbar with 6 major connections:
	Vr4000 family data/adress to memory data lines (store)
	Memory data lines to the Vr4000 data/address (load)
	Vr4000 family data/address bus to the i386 data/address bus (I/O store)
	i386-style databus to the Vr4000 (I/O load)
	i386-style data bus to memory (DMA read)
	Memory data lines to the i386 data bus lines (DMA write)

Memory interlace is formed by the two MCT-DP chips is four words or 128 bits 
wide.  The chip contains a 128 bit write buffer that is used to buffer all 
data from the vr 4000 to the system.  The chip also contains 8 128 byte 
I/O data buffers which buffer data tranfers between the i386 style bus and 
the memory system.  These buffers allow concurrent vr4000 family memory 
operations and I/O direct memory access operations.

Not that I understand all of it but it sounds good to me.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 04:17:03 1993
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Message-Id: <199307280805.AA02076@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jul 1993 08:59:34 MDT."
             <9307270659.AA10308@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 02:05:43 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt <drew@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

    
    Yes, and the main difference between the R4200 and the other R4x00 CPUs
    are that is *not* pincompatibel, that it has the old R3000 pipeline and
    a simpler FPU. Note: This is what I've heard. I will receive data sheets
    this week. Perhaps things have changed...

    However, if the R4200 is no real R4x00 CPU I would suggest to use
    one of the others, even if it is more expensive at the moment.

    Are we going to build a R4000 machine now ? I would appreciate this !

Prices and performance
Notes : 
1.  Quantities were unspecified, in any case these prices are for 
	more chips than we're looking to buy, and for small lots the 
	distributor sets the price.

2.  All prices in US Dollars

3.  The figures for everything but the 4200 are from the July OEM magazine,
	I don't know where the 4200 info originated, but several net.sources
	said the same things.

4.  Clock speed is in Mhz, obviously these things run the internal clock
	faster than external.

Vendor		Clock 	Chip	Price	SPECint92 	SPECfp92
unspecified 	100	R4000SC 640	61.7		63.4
unspecified	150	R4400SC 1120	88(est)		97(est)
NEC 	        80	R4200   70	55		30


And, for comparison
Intel		66	486	542	32.2		16.1
Intel		66	Pentium	965	64.5		56.9

Unquestionably, the R4200 gives the best price/performance of 
any of these chips.  

After we adpoted the motherboard idea and people started calling this
thing a "workstation", a target price of $600-$700 was set.  It might
be a little difficult to meet a price somewhere in that neighborhood 
if we end up using a $640 chip...
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 04:46:48 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:36:37 +0200
Message-Id: <9307280836.AA12449@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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	id AA12449; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:36:37 +0200
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

>    Yes, and the main difference between the R4200 and the other R4x00 CPUs
>    are that is *not* pincompatibel, that it has the old R3000 pipeline and
>    a simpler FPU. Note: This is what I've heard. I will receive data sheets
>    this week. Perhaps things have changed...
>
>    However, if the R4200 is no real R4x00 CPU I would suggest to use
>    one of the others, even if it is more expensive at the moment.
>
>    Are we going to build a R4000 machine now ? I would appreciate this !

> Prices and performance
> Notes : 
> 1.  Quantities were unspecified, in any case these prices are for 
> 	more chips than we're looking to buy, and for small lots the 
> 	distributor sets the price.
> 
> 2.  All prices in US Dollars
> 
> 3.  The figures for everything but the 4200 are from the July OEM magazine,
> 	I don't know where the 4200 info originated, but several net.sources
> 	said the same things.
> 
> 4.  Clock speed is in Mhz, obviously these things run the internal clock
> 	faster than external.
> 
> Vendor		Clock 	Chip	Price	SPECint92 	SPECfp92
> unspecified 	100	R4000SC 640	61.7		63.4
> unspecified	150	R4400SC 1120	88(est)		97(est)
> NEC 	        80	R4200   70	55		30

Ok, but you can't compare the SC versions with the R4200, so far I know.
In any case, I would suggest to use the PC version.
What I have heard from IDT ( *OFFICIAL* statement, no net mumble ) is
that the price for the R4400PC will be around $200 in low quantities.
As I said already, I'm waiting for the NEC-Prices. If there's in fact
still a large price difference between the R4200 and others: Yes, we
should then use the R4200.

> And, for comparison
> Intel		66	486	542	32.2		16.1
> Intel		66	Pentium	965	64.5		56.9
> 
> Unquestionably, the R4200 gives the best price/performance of 
> any of these chips.  

> After we adpoted the motherboard idea and people started calling this
> thing a "workstation", a target price of $600-$700 was set.  It might
> be a little difficult to meet a price somewhere in that neighborhood 
> if we end up using a $640 chip...

We should try to get *real* prices, not just estimations.
Let us decide then, and don't let us confuse by unqualified
statements on the net. I totally agree that we should *not* try
to build a $2000 thing. Nobody would buy it, so nobody would
work in it. A price of around us$700 should be ok for a R4000
machine, isn't it ?

Andy


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
Neustrasse 9-12, 53498 Waldorf, Germany | email:  andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
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From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:36:37 +0200 <9307280836.AA12449@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 1993 02:05:43 -0600 <199307280805.AA02076@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU>
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Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:38:08 -0500 <9307281138.AA24079@dhostwo.convex.com>
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:38:03 -0500 <9307281138.AA24052@dhostwo.convex.com>
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Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]
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Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA07046; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:28:12 -0700
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	id AA24591; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:27:14 -0700
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	id AA24330; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:25:23 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:25:23 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281225.AA24330@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:47:53 -0500 <9307281147.AA24194@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 08:41:09 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA24756; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:41:09 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA07907; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:39:16 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA25364; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:38:21 -0700
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	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA25357; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:38:19 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA07895; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:38:55 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA24434; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:36:30 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:36:30 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281236.AA24434@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:25:23 -0500 <9307281225.AA24330@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 08:43:26 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA24857; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:43:26 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA08223; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:41:00 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA25387; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:40:00 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA25380; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:39:58 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA08160; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:40:32 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA24452; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:38:09 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:38:09 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281238.AA24452@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:25:24 -0500 <9307281225.AA24336@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 08:58:12 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA25277; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:58:12 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA09194; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:54:54 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26280; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:53:58 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26273; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:53:56 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA09179; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:54:30 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA24549; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:08 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:08 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281252.AA24549@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:36:30 -0500 <9307281236.AA24434@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 08:58:14 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA25292; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:58:14 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA09210; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:55:38 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26297; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:54:41 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26290; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:54:39 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA09198; Wed, 28 Jul 93 05:55:02 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA24560; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:34 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:34 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281252.AA24560@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:38:09 -0500 <9307281238.AA24452@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 09:46:51 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA27711; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:46:51 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11043; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:29:48 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28623; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:28:48 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28616; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:28:46 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11031; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:29:21 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA24868; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:55 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:55 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281326.AA24868@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:34 -0500 <9307281252.AA24560@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 09:46:58 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA27751; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:46:58 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11086; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:31:26 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28669; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:30:28 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28662; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:30:26 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11074; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:31:00 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA24880; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:28:38 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:28:38 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281328.AA24880@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:08 -0500 <9307281252.AA24549@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 09:54:34 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA28208; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:54:34 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11386; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:50:41 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28946; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:49:46 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28939; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:49:44 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11370; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:50:20 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA25273; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:47:57 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:47:57 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281347.AA25273@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:55 -0500 <9307281326.AA24868@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 10:05:56 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA28710; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:05:56 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11358; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:49:23 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28914; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:48:24 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA28906; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:48:22 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11339; Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:48:57 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA25245; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:46:35 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:46:35 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281346.AA25245@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:28:38 -0500 <9307281328.AA24880@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 10:08:35 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA28819; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:08:35 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA12003; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:04:35 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA29413; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:03:14 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA29406; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:03:12 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11810; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:03:48 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA25708; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:01:35 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:01:35 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281401.AA25708@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:46:35 -0500 <9307281346.AA25245@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 10:27:43 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA29689; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:27:43 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA12372; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:08:58 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA29485; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:07:49 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA29471; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:07:46 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA12170; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:08:19 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA25829; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:06:04 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:06:04 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281406.AA25829@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:47:57 -0500 <9307281347.AA25273@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 10:36:55 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA00443; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:36:55 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA14332; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:32:43 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:30:19 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281430.AA26429@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:06:04 -0500 <9307281406.AA25829@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 10:54:08 1993
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	id AA01644; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:54:08 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA16795; Wed, 28 Jul 93 07:52:45 -0700
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	id AA26868; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:34:00 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:34:00 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281434.AA26868@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:01:35 -0500 <9307281401.AA25708@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 10:57:59 1993
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	id AA01876; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:57:59 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:54:04 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281454.AA00726@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:30:19 -0500 <9307281430.AA26429@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 11:08:48 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA02711; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:08:48 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
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	id AA02155; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:02:54 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:02:54 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281502.AA02155@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:34:00 -0500 <9307281434.AA26868@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 11:17:49 1993
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	id AA03210; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:17:49 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
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	id AA02375; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:13:24 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:13:24 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281513.AA02375@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:54:04 -0500 <9307281454.AA00726@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 11:24:25 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA03797; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:24:25 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA19993; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:21:18 -0700
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	id AA04989; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:20:18 -0700
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	id AA04944; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:20:12 -0700
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	id AA19828; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:20:46 -0700
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	id AA02484; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:18:18 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:18:18 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281518.AA02484@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:02:54 -0500 <9307281502.AA02155@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 11:32:56 1993
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	id AA04362; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:32:56 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA21673; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:30:40 -0700
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	id AA05879; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:29:42 -0700
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	id AA02596; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:28:13 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:28:13 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281528.AA02596@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC ]]]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:13:24 -0500 <9307281513.AA02375@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 11:43:26 1993
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	id AA04881; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:43:26 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA22662; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:41:03 -0700
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	id AA06755; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:40:06 -0700
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	id AA02770; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:38:31 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:38:31 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281538.AA02770@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:18:18 -0500 <9307281518.AA02484@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 12:45:26 1993
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	id AA09330; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:45:26 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA28915; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:42:44 -0700
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	id AA12253; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:41:45 -0700
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	id AA12245; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:41:43 -0700
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA28874; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:42:25 -0700
Message-Id: <9307281642.AA28874@gossip.pyramid.com>
Received: by neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
	(1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA07039; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:40:44 -0400
From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 12:40:44 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199307280805.AA02076@nag.cs.Colorado.EDU> from "Drew Eckhardt" at Jul 28, 93 02:05:43 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 955       
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> Vendor	Clock 	Chip	Price	SPECint92 	SPECfp92
> unspecified 	100	R4000SC 640	61.7		63.4
> unspecified	150	R4400SC 1120	88(est)		97(est)
> NEC 	        80	R4200   70	55		30
  IBM		66 	601	350	55		80

Any reason the R4200 is being compared to the SC chips and not the PC?
Based on pin count alone I'd expect the PC at 179 pins to be a fair 
amount cheaper then the SC at 447 pins.  Or is the 4200 a SC??

How does the group feel this could come about?  Purchase the ARC 100 150
kits so that we can use there design (so we aren't limited to 40 Mhz)?

Apparently the powerpc 601 can use the RS/6000 port of GCC, I have several 
statements that the 601 will be supported in the next release.  Byte
magazine benchmarks the 601 with the GCC compiler.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 13:02:49 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA10318; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:02:49 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA01582; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:00:34 -0700
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	id AA14717; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:59:34 -0700
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	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA14710; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:59:31 -0700
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA01566; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:00:14 -0700
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	id AA08481; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:58:08 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:58:08 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281658.AA08481@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 1993 12:40:44 -0500 (EDT) <9307281642.AA28874@gossip.pyramid.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 13:14:39 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA10868; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:14:39 EDT
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	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA02468; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:13:01 -0700
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	id AA17353; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:12:05 -0700
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	id AA17336; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:12:02 -0700
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	id AA02453; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:12:44 -0700
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	id AA08829; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:11:01 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:11:01 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281711.AA08829@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:58:08 -0500 <9307281658.AA08481@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 13:32:23 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA11778; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:32:23 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA03557; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:29:08 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA20032; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:28:10 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA19988; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:28:04 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA03545; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:28:47 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA09945; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:26:23 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:26:23 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281726.AA09945@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:11:01 -0500 <9307281711.AA08829@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 13:43:00 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA12396; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:43:00 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA04537; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:40:57 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA22472; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:39:57 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA22458; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:39:54 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA04481; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:40:37 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA10280; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:38:30 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:38:30 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281738.AA10280@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:26:23 -0500 <9307281726.AA09945@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 13:54:16 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA13295; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:54:16 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA05257; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:52:14 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA24092; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:51:16 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA24081; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:51:13 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA05151; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:51:57 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA11002; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:49:49 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:49:49 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281749.AA11002@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:38:30 -0500 <9307281738.AA10280@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 14:07:30 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA14124; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:07:30 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA06494; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:05:02 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA25794; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:03:48 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA25780; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:03:42 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA06262; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:04:24 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA11998; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:01:59 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:01:59 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281801.AA11998@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:49:49 -0500 <9307281749.AA11002@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 14:19:41 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA14965; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:19:41 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA07939; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:16:40 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26555; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:15:42 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26548; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:15:36 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA07780; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:16:10 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA12722; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:14:25 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:14:25 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281814.AA12722@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:01:59 -0500 <9307281801.AA11998@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 14:30:17 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA15650; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:30:17 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA08746; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:28:10 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA27761; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:27:12 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA27754; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:27:09 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA08662; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:27:52 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA13816; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:25:45 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:25:45 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281825.AA13816@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:14:25 -0500 <9307281814.AA12722@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 14:40:45 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA16334; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:40:45 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA09703; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:38:33 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA29281; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:37:34 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA29250; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:37:29 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA09577; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:38:11 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA14688; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:36:04 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:36:04 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281836.AA14688@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:25:45 -0500 <9307281825.AA13816@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 14:51:24 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA16966; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:51:24 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11688; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:49:24 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA01203; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:48:25 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA01165; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:48:22 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA11628; Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:49:04 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA15798; Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:46:57 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:46:57 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281846.AA15798@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:36:04 -0500 <9307281836.AA14688@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 15:08:54 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA17929; Wed, 28 Jul 93 15:08:54 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA13538; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:06:13 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA04193; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:05:06 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA04167; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:05:00 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA13520; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:05:42 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA16679; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:03:35 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:03:35 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281903.AA16679@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:46:57 -0500 <9307281846.AA15798@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 15:26:01 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA18977; Wed, 28 Jul 93 15:26:01 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA15658; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:21:03 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA07019; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:20:06 -0700
Received: from goss.pyramid.com
	by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA07009; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:20:04 -0700
Received: from dhostwo.convex.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA15560; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:20:32 -0700
Received: by dhostwo.convex.com (5.64/1.28)
	id AA17434; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:18:18 -0500
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:18:18 -0500
From: daemon@dhostwo.convex.com (Our friend the daemon)
Message-Id: <9307281918.AA17434@dhostwo.convex.com>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Defunct user [Re: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]]]]]]]]]]]]
In-Reply-To: Your misdirected message to mccrorey of Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:03:35 -0500 <9307281903.AA16679@dhostwo.convex.com>
Reply-To: problems@dhostwo.convex.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The referenced mail message was received by "mccrorey", a user who is 
no longer with the company and for whom we have no forwarding address, 
which means there is no one there to read your mail!  This mail appears 
to have been directed to the following address(es): 

    riscy@pyramid.com

Please verify that you actually mailed the person whom you were
intending to mail.  If you mailed a group alias, you should contact 
that alias's owner and explain to them that the alias contains an
ex-employee.  If you have further questions, please address them 
to notes problems.

The Mailer Daemon
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 17:48:49 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA27132; Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:48:49 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA08202; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:46:28 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26397; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:44:26 -0700
Received: by sword.eng.pyramid.com (5.61/Pyramid_Internal_Configuration)
	id AA26377; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:44:23 -0700
From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307282144.AA26377@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Mail problem with convex.com
To: riscy@sword.eng.pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:44:22 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

There seems to be a mail loop happening with the list and a system at
convex.  Interestingly enough, there is no one at convex that is
subscribed to the list.  Currently the Majordomo software at Pyramid
and the defunct employed system at convex fail to handle bounced
messages correctly.

I have disabled the riscy mailing list temporarily until I can do something
about this.  I will send another message again when the problem is
fixed.  Mail sent to the list during this time may or may not be lost.

Thanks,
	Neil.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Wed Jul 28 21:58:42 1993
Received: from gossip.pyramid.com by SunSITE.unc.edu (4.1/tas-gen/1-30-93)
	id AA06900; Wed, 28 Jul 93 21:58:42 EDT
Received: from sword.eng.pyramid.com 
	by gossip.pyramid.com (5.61/OSx5.1a Pyramid-Internet-Gateway)
	id AA05526; Wed, 28 Jul 93 18:56:40 -0700
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From: caret@pyramid.com (Neil Russell)
Message-Id: <9307290155.AA21027@sword.eng.pyramid.com>
Subject: Mailing list problems
To: riscy@sword.eng.pyramid.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 18:55:37 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

The offending user has been removed from the lists and the mail loop
stopped (hopefully).  I have restored the list.

Sorry for the problems.


Neil
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 29 11:09:11 1993
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From: Andreas Busse <andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:51:03 +0200
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To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com


> Any reason the R4200 is being compared to the SC chips and not the PC?
> Based on pin count alone I'd expect the PC at 179 pins to be a fair 
> amount cheaper then the SC at 447 pins.  Or is the 4200 a SC??

I don't know. So far I know is the R4200 a PC version.
It's *very* difficult to get informations about the R4200.
An engineer at NEC asked "no problem, how many do you want to buy ?"
while a distributor told me that he had never heard about that part
and that NEC doesn't produce it !
Seems we are a bit ahead of the technology...

However, I've got a data sheet for the NEC VRX / uPD30450. It looks
like that this is what we call the R4200. At least the detail that
this CPU has a 5-stage pipeline instead of the 8-stage pipeline used
in the R4000 and R4400 makes it very probably that it is the R4200.

Some Specs quoted from the sheet (Feb. 93):

Input Clock: 		40 MHz
Operating Clock:	80 MHz
I-Cache:		16 kB
D-Cache:		 8 kB
Power Consumption:	 2 W

System interface compatibel with the Vr4000 series.
Instruction set compatibel with the Vr4000 series.

So far, so good. But there's one important thing, probably a great
disadvantage for some of the group: The VRX has ***NO*** FPU !!!

Again, qouted from the data sheet:

All floating point instructions, as defined in the MIPS ISA for
the floating-point coprocessor CP1, are processed by the same
hardware as for the integer instructions. That is to say, there
is no separate floating point coprocessor. However, the execution
of floating point instructions can still be disabled via the
coprocessor usability CU bit defined in the CP0 status register.
[end of qouted material]

Here are some examples of floating point instruction timings:
(in pipeline clock cycles)

Insn		S	D
--------------------------
Add.fmt		3	3
Sub.fmt		3	3
Mul.fmt		11	20
Div.fmt		28	57
Sqrt.fmt	28	57
Abs.fmt		1	1
[...]
S=single prec., D=double prec.

So far I understand the data sheet, these instructions
are executed in parallel to loads, stores and so on.
The CPU stalls when, for example, an int-multiply is
in progress and a second multiply, no matter what format,
is to be executed.
I would say, except of Mul and Div, this is the same
timing as the R4000 and R4400 have. I can't decide
if the performance of Mul and Div satisfies the requirements
of the group. All I can say is: It's ok for *me*.

Any comments ? Please - if we really want to make hardware
instead of vapor-ware, wakeup, guys. Here's something to discuss.

Cheers,
Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
Neustrasse 9-12, 53498 Waldorf, Germany | email:  andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 29 11:35:53 1993
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Message-Id: <199307291532.AA05905@picton.cs.huji.ac.il>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:51:03 +0200 .
             <9307291451.AA00405@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> 
From: Amos Shapira <amoss@cs.huji.ac.il>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 18:32:14 +0300
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

In message <9307291451.AA00405@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> Andreas Busse writes:

 [ lots of info,  bottom line is that the R4200 doesn't have a FPU ]

|Any comments ? Please - if we really want to make hardware
|instead of vapor-ware, wakeup, guys. Here's something to discuss.

Ok,  so shall we take a vote or what?

I am not a hardware type but the R4200 seems to be enough for me it and it
eats 486/66 raw even as it is (here is the table again:

Vendor          Clock   Chip    Price   SPECint92       SPECfp92
unspecified     100     R4000SC 640     61.7            63.4
unspecified     150     R4400SC 1120    88(est)         97(est)
NEC             80      R4200   70      55              30
                                                        ^^
And, for comparison
Intel           66      486     542     32.2            16.1
                                                        ^^^^
Intel           66      Pentium 965     64.5            56.9
)

and the Pentium is out of the question price-wise as far as I'm concerned,
not to mention that going for it must mean waiting for another year at least.

Especially when you take the price/performance and at what price do we want
the system to end up with, I vote for the R4200 and let's go on with the rest
of the design.

Only one question (not that it is going to change my view): you mention
a possibility of a separate FPU.  Is it possible to leave space for a socket
for it a-la the 386/387 combo?  (again,  I'm not a hardware type so please
bear with me if this is a stupid question).

I hope I'm doing the right thing but I propose that others on the list who
kept quite so far (like me) and followed the discussion for the last couple
of weeks will let us all know what they think (is there an echo out here ? :).

Maybe the "core" of this list should appruve of this before things get out
of hand, ok?

|
|Cheers,
|Andy
|
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-
|        Waldorf Electronics GmbH        | Phone:  +49 (0)2636-80294
|              R&D Department            | Fax:    +49 (0)2636-80188
|Neustrasse 9-12, 53498 Waldorf, Germany | email:  andy@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-

Bye,

--Amos

--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 29 11:38:53 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:35:45 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307291451.AA00405@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 29, 93 04:51:03 pm
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> So far, so good. But there's one important thing, probably a great
> disadvantage for some of the group: The VRX has ***NO*** FPU !!!

As far as I'm concerned we shouldn't worry about implementation as
much as the benchmarks.   Whatever has the best price performance
sounds good to me.  Although the fact that a 4000 can be upgraded
to a 4400 sounds like a good advantage to me.

The 4200 is around 55/30 specint/specfp
    4000 is around 62/63
    4400 is around 94/105
    601 is around 50/80

Of the chips we have prices for (4[04]00SC and 4200) the 4200 sounds the most
attractive, but (PC) prices may make the 4000 much more attractive.

I think another critical issue is whether we go with the ARC 100/150 
manufacturing kits.  If we do we can do 50 Mhz or higher, and have to use the 
mips chip.

Powerpc seems to be in the running as far as price/performance and
running gcc+gas is concerned.

> Any comments ? Please - if we really want to make hardware
> instead of vapor-ware, wakeup, guys. Here's something to discuss.

The cost difference between a 4000PC and the 4200 is the only thing I need
to decide.


-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 29 11:44:44 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 09:38:58 MDT
From: Alan Krantz <atk@agua.Colorado.EDU>
Message-Id: <9307291538.AA27123@agua.colorado.edu>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

  >>From owner-riscy@pyramid.com Thu Jul 29 09:31:32 1993
  >>From: Amos Shapira <amoss@cs.huji.ac.il>
  >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 18:32:14 +0300

  >>In message <9307291451.AA00405@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de> Andreas Busse writes:

  >> [ lots of info,  bottom line is that the R4200 doesn't have a FPU ]

  >>|Any comments ? Please - if we really want to make hardware
  >>|instead of vapor-ware, wakeup, guys. Here's something to discuss.

  >>Ok,  so shall we take a vote or what?

  >>I am not a hardware type but the R4200 seems to be enough for me it and it
  >>eats 486/66 raw even as it is (here is the table again:

  >>Vendor          Clock   Chip    Price   SPECint92       SPECfp92
  >>unspecified     100     R4000SC 640     61.7            63.4
  >>unspecified     150     R4400SC 1120    88(est)         97(est)
  >>NEC             80      R4200   70      55              30
  >>                                                        ^^
  >>And, for comparison
  >>Intel           66      486     542     32.2            16.1
  >>                                                        ^^^^

Price, performance, and ease of building a mother board how does some of the
other available risc processors compare such as 601 and the new sparc ?

atk

 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 29 13:42:17 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:38:50 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307291738.AA24770@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

My quick, off-the-cuff opinion:

1. A 3081/3051 design is still feasible, and may be a price/performance
   competitor - if the price is low enough to fit the lower performance.
   I note that IBM is now selling motherboards with 486slc/2's on them
   for about CDN$450.00.  That's a 486/33 class machine. (25/50 MHz clock
   doubled.)  16 KByte on-chip cache, no secondary cache.  We should
   hit 1.5-2 times that performance, with on-board scsi/serial/fdc/video
   for 1.5 times the price.  That's sensible to me.  The R3081/MOM3000/R3041
   combination is interesting.

2. An R4000SC design is too complex for my tastes, and secondary cache
   is too expensive (ca. $100 including support chips).  The performance
   information given is interesting as upper-bound numbers.

3. An R4000PC design may be feasible.  But we don't have cost information
   or performance information.  I really want to stay under $800 (no ram).

4. An R4200 design may be feasible, but no-one knows what it will cost.
   I'll start bugging the NEC distributor here.  We have a good relationship
   with him.

5. A PowerPC design is a dark horse.  Motorola will be aching to get design
   information out to design teams, but if it requires secondary caches
   and 60 MHz design, it will be tricky and expensive.

6. The SPARC chips look like they require significant design effort, and
   have historically been priced > $400.  Witness the Weitek "SPARC1 upgrade"
   that retails at $1500.  Certainly SMCC and other high-volume purchasers
   get better prices, but can we?

My 1992 NEC Databook on DSP's has a one-page table of the RISC products
which includes:

NEC part  Mkt name   Clock (MHz)  Pkg        pins
uPD30361  Vr3600     25, 33       PPGA       175
uPD30400  Vr4000PC   50, 66, 75   CPGA       179
uPD30401  Vr4000SC   50, 66, 75   CPGA, LGA  447
uPD30402  Vr4000MC   50, 66, 75   CPGA, LGA  447

I do have advance information on the Orion from IDT.  This is R4000PC
pin compatible (PGA) or 208-pin MQuad.  Hmmm. 5-stage pipeline like the
Vr4200.  And what is the R4400PC?  Note that some of these devices
(Orion) are 3.3V.
________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 29 15:20:49 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 14:16:35 CDT
From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
Message-Id: <9307291916.AA25084@ubitrex.mb.ca>
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

Just perusing the latest (July 22nd) EDN -

Fujitsu MB86932 SPARClite - US$79 - 20 MHz,  US$120 - 40 MHz, 5K qty.
  DRAM controller, 2 KByte D-cache, 8 KByte I-cache, "1 MFlop" (no
  FPU), 2 DMA channels, timer on-chip, address decoder on-chip, 
  interrupt controller.

Cyrix Cx486s2/50 - US$249, 1k qty (just for $ comparison).

DEC 21064 - Alpha - US$1096, 1k qty.  I don't think we're talking
  Alpha this year.

Intel Pentium - "less than $1000".

AT&T Hobbit - $100 CPU & chipset (5 chips). 10k qty.  No gcc.

TI uSPARC - US$179, 10k qty.  Offchip primary cache required.

I don't think we should use any of these, for various price and support
reasons.  But the price/performance issue is part of what's driving this
list, so perspective is helpful.  But that SPARClite (targetted at
embedded/X/laser printers) is interesting.   Hmmm, a $500 SS-2
motherboard?  I guess that's the Classic's price.

________________________________________________________________
Tim Braun                          |
Ubitrex Corporation                | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
1900-155 Carlton St                | FAX:   204-942-3001
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8 | Email: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Sat Jul 31 05:19:46 1993
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 93 09:43 PDT
From: adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us (Andrew Dyer)
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Subject: [tim@ubitrex.mb.ca: Re: Mips Chips from NEC]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> From: tim@ubitrex.mb.ca (Tim Braun)
> Subject: Re: Mips Chips from NEC
> 
> My quick, off-the-cuff opinion:
> 
> 1. A 3081/3051 design is still feasible, and may be a price/performance
>    competitor - if the price is low enough to fit the lower performance.

I think this could be a good solution if people are willing to go for
an FPGA.  It seems that the MOM is not what we want and the IDT chip
is not forthcoming.

> 4. An R4200 design may be feasible, but no-one knows what it will cost.

R4200 is about $70, ARC chipset is unknown to me (all in volume of course)

> 5. A PowerPC design is a dark horse.  Motorola will be aching to get design
>    information out to design teams, but if it requires secondary caches
>    and 60 MHz design, it will be tricky and expensive.

The first power-pc chip is supposed to use a bus similar to Moto's 88110
which allow multiple transations in progress.  Pretty complicated compared to 
a simple 32-bit muxed a/d bus...

> 6. The SPARC chips look like they require significant design effort, and
>    have historically been priced > $400.  Witness the Weitek "SPARC1 upgrade"
>    that retails at $1500.  Certainly SMCC and other high-volume purchasers
>    get better prices, but can we?

I believe the Fujitsu SparcLite series are in competing price ranges
to the IDT 3051/3081 series.  Some of the versions include interrupt
controllers, DMA, split I/D caches of varying sizes, general I/O
ports, timers, etc.  They come in large surface mount packages.  I
believe only one has a FPU.  None include direct DRAM control.  I have
much more data at the office.

> I do have advance information on the Orion from IDT.  This is R4000PC
> pin compatible (PGA) or 208-pin MQuad.  Hmmm. 5-stage pipeline like the
> Vr4200.  And what is the R4400PC?  Note that some of these devices
> (Orion) are 3.3V.

Orion and VRX(4200) are both 3.3V chips.  Orion runs faster, has FPU, but
the chips are very similar in idea.  They both follow the non-embedded
philosophy of CPU design - "just the CPU ma'am"

How about this - I saw a preliminary app note on how to convert an
Intel 80960CA/CF to be compatible with a 486/33 local bus - just a PAL
or two.  How about a board with a 960 coupled to a PC motherboard.
Pretty Crufty, Nicht Wahr?  (of course the same idea could be extended
to some other processors...)

--------------------------------------Ich mo"chte ein Eisba"r sein!
(1) adyer@zarniwoop.chi.il.us
(2) adyer@usr.com
 
