From hchen@prw.msi.umn.edu Sat Aug 21 08:56:44 EST 1993
Article: 14163 of alt.chinese.text
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
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From: hchen@prw.msi.umn.edu (Hao Chen)
Subject: [TALK]Ming_History~{R2L8=(NDQ79z~}
Message-ID: <hchen.745904265@msi.umn.edu>
Summary: Ming_history, Chinese_text
Keywords: Ming_history, Chinese_text
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 03:37:45 GMT
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From alt-chinese-text@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw Sat Aug 21 08:59:53 EST 1993
Article: 14150 of alt.chinese.text
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From: fan@JANUS.arc.ab.ca
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: about Ming (1) ~{CwJ7V.R;~}
Date: 21 Aug 1993 14:25:01 +0800
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sat Aug 21 09:06:40 EST 1993
Article: 14154 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (2) ~{CwJ7V.6~~}
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993  00:30 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 38
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From un020767@wvnvms.wvnet.edu Sat Aug 21 18:40:10 EST 1993
Article: 14225 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!wvnvms.wvnet.edu!un020767
From: un020767@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: ~{Q*PH7=P"He~}
Message-ID: <1993Aug21.151638.7485@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 93 15:16:38 EDT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing
Lines: 25


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From xiaodong@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Sat Aug 21 18:51:26 EST 1993
Article: 14222 of alt.chinese.text
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!xiaodong@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
From: Xiao Dong Guo <xiaodong@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: ~{Q'CwJ7~}
Message-ID: <199308211840.AA25573@phoenix.princeton.edu>
Sender: <xiaodong@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 18:40:33 GMT


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 ~{#-OPHK~}
 



From geo@bio.msu.edu Sat Aug 21 19:03:06 EST 1993
Article: 14239 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: geo@bio.msu.edu  (Qiaofu)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (3) ~{CwJ7V.H}!"=(NDQ79z~}
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993  18:11 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 49
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~{AKIm7V#,1;K{5D~}roommate(~{R2JGR;8v:MIP~})~{7">u#,OrV*8.8fC\!#~}
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~{O`PEDDR;8v0f1>~}?
  ~{SV#,SPN;@OPVLa5=SPN;Cw;J5[J.<8Dj2;@m3/U~#,NJJGDD~}
~{R;N;!#?<NRAKJG2;~}?~{UbN;;J5[S&JGIqWZMr@z5[#,K{TZN;=|NeJ.~}
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~{Ww<z8v>+9b#,Cw3/VA4K7GMv2;?I!#~}
  ~{SVSV#,VlT*h0Tl74J1<SHk5D=L=PCw=L#,UbR2JG9z:E5DSI@4~}(~{?4~}
~{9}~}<<~{RPLlM@Az<G~}>>~{5DHK6T4K2;;aD0Iz!#~})
  ~{V.R;La5=5D:z08JGV8:zN)S9D17408!#:zJGCw3/5DWn:sR;N;TWO`#,~}
~{>]Vl5DV8?X#,:z@oM(Mb9z#,WTHU1>GkAKKD0Y@KHK05KcVlT*h0~}(~{UfSP~}
~{RbK<~})~{!#:z08SPH}MrHK1;I1#,@608TrI1AKA=MrHK!#~}
  ~{NRY)CwJ7#,1>@4V;JG7"7"RiB[M<8vM4?l!#?4@4RT:s;9JG<S5c~}
~{O8=Z#,4s<R6AFp@4R2SPH$P)!#~}
     ~{7=V[WS#,~} ~{WTC@@v='!"CZO*9!!"@6PG!#~}


From geo@bio.msu.edu Sat Aug 21 19:07:55 EST 1993
Article: 14246 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: geo@bio.msu.edu  (Qiaofu)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (4) ~{CwJ7V.KD!"7=P"He
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993  18:16 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19930821181601.geo@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

    <<~{BRY)CwJ7~}(~{V.KD~})----~{7=P"He~}>>
  ~{Q`MuFp1xJ1#,D1J?R&9cP"Tx6TQ`MuK5#,JB3IV.J1#,7=P"HeR;6(2;;a~}
~{M6=5#,5+Gk2;R*I1K{#,!0I1P"He#,LlOB6AJiVVWS>xRS!#!1Q`Mu5cM7~}
~{4pS&!#5+:s@42"N4JXPE!#WT4KQ`Mu2EV*P"HeTZLlOBHKPDVP5D5XN;#,~}
~{6x7GR*K{FpZ/2;?I!#~}
  ~{Q`Mu1x5V3$=-#,6x3/M"T.1xN45=#,>)J&Up6/#,=(ND5[NJP"HeTuC40l#,~}
~{P"He4p5@#:!03$=-?I510YMr1x!#!13$=-LlG5#,=-114,V;SVRQ1;P"He~}
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~{P"HeHON*2V4YFz3G#,HKPD2;NH#,=pAj3G8_3XIn#,?IRT<aJX4}T.#,JX~}
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~{HKJ}~}(~{!0AyKD!1RE6>~})~{!#51HU1;I15D7=WeHKSP0K0YF_J.H}HK#,NRK5~}
~{<8G'#,JG0Q:s@45D@DI1R28xKc=xH%AK!#3IWf6T86=(ND>I3<#,JV6NV.~}
~{2P?a#,?UG0>x:s!#IT:sI1>0Ge#,8|JG7"CwAK!09OB{3-!1~}(~{@D<0N^9<#,~}
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  ~{P"He#::N2;A"3IMuV.5\~}?
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  (~{C|WsSRJZP"He1JD+#,P"He4sJi!0Q`Tt4[N;!1KDWV!#~})
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~{!0?.H;>MK@!1#,6TT,3g;@5DJ\PL59<GTXOjO8#,T,R/2;W!5XQvLl~}
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    ~{7=V[WS#,~} ~{WTC@@v='!"CZO*9!!"@6PG!#~}


From geo@bio.msu.edu Sat Aug 21 19:12:14 EST 1993
Article: 14247 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: geo@bio.msu.edu  (Qiaofu)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (5) ~{CwJ7V.Ne!";J5[R;@@1m~}
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993  18:18 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19930821181830.geo@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

   <<~{BRY)CwJ7~}(~{V.Ne~})----~{;J5[R;@@1m~}>>
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~{SkG0R;;J5[5D9XO5!#R;0cO09_#,La<0UbP);J5[J1#,<N>8V.G05D#,3F~}
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(~{S@@z~})~{5[~}                ~{S@@z~}    15     ~{WeKo~}
    ~{7=V[WS#,~} ~{WTC@@v='!"CZO*9!!"@6PG!#~}


From y1wan@copper.denver.colorado.edu Sat Aug 21 21:53:10 EST 1993
Article: 14263 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!copper!y1wan
From: y1wan@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Peter-Pan)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: about Ming (1)~{CwJ7V.R;!"GeJ7~}
Message-ID: <7113@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Date: 21 Aug 93 23:19:06 GMT
References: <1993Aug20.225612.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver
Lines: 27
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4


~{U}J=5DGeJ7IPN43vOV#,SP5DV;JGUT6{7bKyWw5DGeJ78e#,Ub4sHKJGGeD)4(6=UT6{Yc~} +
~{V.5\#,UTW\6=Rr4(B77g31#,4rK@AK0YPU#,8x8OOBL(#,N*PA:%8oC|8x4r~}
~{OBAK;y4!!#~}   

~{;9SP8v1&14DQPVDQ5\#-J"P{;3!#51J15DSJ5g4s3<!#Ub@O8g#,RrN*IOAK8v7=WS8x@O~}
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~{V45vScL(J1#,;9SP8v@OPV0Q@O7pR/5DJ%Sa5DUf<#8xDCAK3v@4#,5=5W5D@zJ7=.SrA(~}
~{#!~}  

~{GeD)Vn6=VP#,Wn;l5D51JtAu@$R;!#WnHL5DJG@n:hUB#,Wn8R5DJGIn1#V!#,WnW3AR5D~}
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~{An=|4zVP9zBRF_0KTc!#JV6NR2JG2;!02n!1#!#,;9SP8v;l50=P8URc#,BzQ'J?5DJW8(~}
~{!#R2JGBR3vKQVwRb!#~}

~{6+H}J!51J1SP5DV;JG=+>|!#?IC;6=8'#,~}


~{7IO@2;P!#,P!O@Ok7I#,P!7IO@~}

5




From y1wan@copper.denver.colorado.edu Sun Aug 22 15:36:39 EST 1993
Article: 14305 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!copper!y1wan
From: y1wan@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Peter-Pan)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: about Ming (1) ~{CwJ7V.R;~}
Message-ID: <7121@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Date: 22 Aug 93 15:10:33 GMT
References: <honglin.71@apmaths.uwo.ca>
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver
Lines: 42
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

honglin@apmaths.uwo.ca (HONGLIN YE) writes:
: In article <7109@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> y1wan@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Peter-Pan) writes:
: ~{2;IO3/592;<{5C>MJG@A6h#,V;R*O8PD5D?4U[WS#,SPJBJ1UY<88vHKILA?#,~}
: ~{H;:sOBV<WE0l>MPPAK!#:N1XHC4s3<CGC?Ll@4?DM7#,:0MrKjDX#?~}
: ~{C?HUIO3/#,J5<JJGR;VVP'BJ:\5M5D0lJB7=7(!#~}
: ~{9X<|JGR*GZU~#,6x2;JGIO3/!#~}


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~{IqWZ3/:s#,;J5[I6WSR22;;a#,>M;aM"UH#!?*G'9EP_Hh4s3<V.J<!#KyRTKyVPQk3,<6</H(~}
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~{GZU~0.Cq5DWnJtP~lG#,A,5X7=5DGgSj2a6<?4!#S"Cw#,S"Cw#!#!#!#!~}


~{P!7IO@~}




From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sun Aug 22 23:12:13 EST 1993
Article: 14354 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (6) ~{CwJ7V.Ay!"9YVF~}
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1993  23:53 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 88
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~{5dJ7!"=LZM!"Q55<!#~}
     ~{7=V[WS#,~} ~{WTC@@v='!"CZO*9!!"@6PG!#~}


From yuan@polaris.me.jhu.edu Mon Aug 23 22:47:42 EST 1993
Article: 14464 of alt.chinese.text
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From: yuan@polaris.me.jhu.edu (he yuan)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: ~{9XSZ02;U~}
Date: 24 Aug 1993 00:44:46 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, Johns Hopkins University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <25bo9uINNlt1@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
References: <25437eINNe8q@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> <7106@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> <258155$lti@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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~{Z[#,!!9E5XC{!#!!JG7qTZEf4}CwLlP!5\2iMjH}9zTYK5!#OVN*02;U#(UR2;5=Ub~}
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~{:iNd;JT*UB@OPV5D<.9aSP4}Oj?<!#!!R;@44KPVDKLV79J@<R3vIm#,F<WYF/24#,GR~}
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~{Wf=eJ5DQ?<!#!!Am>]5\2PH1<GRb#,TxTZD34&6A5=FdWfWT=-KUG(MnV.JB!#~}

~{;9JGDG8v!!R;MnHK~}


From fangshim@student.msu.edu Tue Aug 24 23:40:27 EST 1993
Article: 14580 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History (9) ~{#mCwJ7V.>E~}
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993  16:11 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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     <<~{CwJ7~}(~{V.>E~})>>
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Tue Aug 24 23:55:57 EST 1993
Article: 14483 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!nigel.msen.com!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (7) ~{CwJ7V.F_!"VlT*h0~}
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1993  21:01 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 46
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Tue Aug 24 23:56:09 EST 1993
Article: 14480 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming (8) ~{CwJ7V.0K!"7=P"He29RE~}
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1993  21:05 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Thu Aug 26 14:52:53 EST 1993
Article: 14797 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx.unm.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History (10) ~{CwJ7V.J.!"=(NDQ79z6~~}
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993  20:42 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Aug 27 15:40:25 EST 1993
Article: 14911 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx.unm.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History (11) ~{CwJ7J.R;!"Bm;J:s~}
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993  15:17 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From fan@janus.arc.ab.ca Fri Aug 27 18:13:46 EST 1993
Article: 14915 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx.unm.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!janus.arc.ab.ca!janus.arc.ab.ca!FAN
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: ~{Q*PH7=P"He~}
Message-ID: <1993Aug24.151327.1106@janus.arc.ab.ca>
From: fan@janus.arc.ab.ca (ruixin fan)
Date: 24 Aug 93 15:13:27 MDT
Reply-To: fan@janus.arc.ab.ca
References: <1993Aug21.151638.7485@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>
Organization: Alberta Research Council
Nntp-Posting-Host: janus.arc.ab.ca
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Aug 27 23:01:26 EST 1993
Article: 14975 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History (12) ~{CwJ7J.6~!"=(NDHJU~~}
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993  15:28 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From fan@janus.arc.ab.ca Sun Aug 29 22:01:50 EST 1993
Article: 15108 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!janus.arc.ab.ca!janus.arc.ab.ca!FAN
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: ~{F[J@5AC{5D!0V#:MOBNwQs!1#!~}
Message-ID: <1993Aug27.144919.1149@janus.arc.ab.ca>
From: fan@janus.arc.ab.ca (ruixin fan)
Date: 27 Aug 93 14:49:18 MDT
Reply-To: fan@janus.arc.ab.ca
Organization: Alberta Research Council
Nntp-Posting-Host: janus.arc.ab.ca
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Mon Aug 30 15:40:46 EST 1993
Article: 15064 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!nigel.msen.com!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History (13) ~{CwJ7J.H}!":iNdKD4s08~}
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993  11:46 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From hchen@prw.msi.umn.edu Wed Sep  1 19:59:08 EST 1993
Article: 15512 of alt.chinese.text
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!msi.umn.edu!hchen
From: hchen@prw.msi.umn.edu (Hao Chen)
Subject: [TALK]ming_history(~{?l?3CwJ7~})
Message-ID: <hchen.746903905@msi.umn.edu>
Summary: ming_history, chinese_text
Keywords: ming_history, chinese_texzt
Sender: news@news.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration)
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Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 17:18:25 GMT
Lines: 21


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From fangshim@studen.msu.edu Fri Sep  3 19:13:03 EST 1993
Article: 15672 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@studen.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 14 ~{CwJ7J.KD!"V#:MV.R;~}
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1993  14:31 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sat Sep  4 14:38:44 EST 1993
Article: 15739 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 15 ~{CwJ7J.Ne!"V#:MOBNwQs6~~}
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1993  14:51 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sun Sep  5 11:09:37 EST 1993
Article: 15844 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 16 ~{CwJ7J.Ay!"V#:MH}~}
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993  01:21 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sun Sep  5 22:58:38 EST 1993
Article: 15914 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx.unm.edu!fmsrl7!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!nigel.msen.com!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 17 ~{CwJ7J.F_!"Au;y~}
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993  21:09 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sun Sep  5 23:23:46 EST 1993
Article: 15912 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: ~{VXR*=(Ri~}
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993  21:05 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 28
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Message-ID: <19930905210516.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
References: <01H2LBD2VKKI95PI0R@stthomas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

In Article <01H2LBD2VKKI95PI0R@stthomas.edu> "J9LI@stthomas.edu" says:
> 
> ~{8wN;MxIO4sO=#:~}
> 	~{1>HK2;;aN^1JWTPP#,V;D\51?49Y!#MxIO:C;u2;IY#,H4V;AcJ[!#:CNDR;F*#,~}
> ~{V;D\?4R;P!6N#,J5TZPDQw!#=(Ri<8N;8_JV#,:MA&SZR;2?WwF7!#9{HgJG#,TZOBOHP;~}
> ~{AK!#~}
> 	~{NR?4:C5D<88v1>WSJG#:#<#<Q*0WQ):l#>#>#,#<#<=pF?C7#>#>#,#<#<BR?3#>#>~}
> ~{<0#<#<B|9~E.#>#>5H!#
> 	~{M{TgHU?45=H+ND!#~}
> 
> 
> J Li
> 
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        ~{7=V[WS!#


From fangshim@student.msu.edu Wed Sep  8 21:11:47 EST 1993
Article: 16181 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 18 ~{CwJ7J.0K!"@nIF3$~}
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1993  14:53 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 58
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Sep 10 22:36:17 EST 1993
Article: 16369 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 19 ~{CwJ7J.>E!"Pl4oR;~}
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993  16:15 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Mon Sep 13 18:04:51 EST 1993
Article: 16545 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!decwrl!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (shimin fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 20 ~{CwJ76~J.!"Pl4o6~~}
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993  23:25 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From Fangshim@student.msu.edu Thu Sep 16 19:34:29 EST 1993
Article: 16830 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: Fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 21 ~{CwJ76~R;!"4s8Y~}
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993  15:41 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 80
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From Fangshim@student.msu.edu Sat Sep 18 23:04:59 EST 1993
Article: 17079 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!sgiblab!spool.mu.edu!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: Fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 22 ~{CwJ76~6~!"3#Sv4:~}
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993  15:02 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 55
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From engp2043@nusunix1.nus.sg Sat Sep 18 23:09:57 EST 1993
Article: 17056 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!ucunix.san.uc.edu!ucbeh!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver.technet.sg!nuscc.nus.sg!engp2043
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: ~{Bz4L<S!"BmAy<W#;5-BmN}!"PB<SFB~}
Message-ID: <279jn6$2op@nuscc.nus.sg>
From: engp2043@nusunix1.nus.sg (LU CHUN)
Date: 16 Sep 1993 11:46:46 GMT
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From Fangshim@student.msu.edu Mon Sep 20 23:13:02 EST 1993
Article: 17361 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!ucunix.san.uc.edu!ucbeh!malgudi.oar.net!news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 23 ~{CwJ76~H}!"ceS"~}
Message-ID: <19930920150539.Fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
From: Fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993  15:05 est
Distribution: world
Organization: Michigan State University
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From Fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Sep 24 20:05:45 EST 1993
Article: 17738 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: Fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang )
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 24 ~{CwJ76~KD!"#<CwJ7#>LaR*~}
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993  14:36 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From Fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Oct  1 09:07:21 EST 1993
Article: 18200 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!ucunix.san.uc.edu!ucbeh!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 26 ~{CwJ76~Ay!"@6Sq~}
Message-ID: <19930930131229.Fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
From: Fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang )
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993  13:12 est
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From Fangshim@student.msu.edu Mon Oct  4 21:20:30 EST 1993
Article: 18670 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: Fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang )
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 27 ~{CwJ76~F_!"9&3<5DOB3!~}
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1993  14:54 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Wed Oct  6 20:54:59 EST 1993
Article: 18916 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 28 ~{CwJ76~0K!"3IWf5D3vIm~}
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1993  18:34 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sun Oct 10 18:17:06 EST 1993
Article: 19322 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 29  ~{CwJ76~>E!"=(6<~}
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993  18:54 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Oct 15 14:00:53 EST 1993
Article: 19922 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 30 ~{CwJ7H}J.!";JWS;JKo~}
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993  18:58 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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    ~{;JJR3IT13}AKY:B;#,;9SP4MLo#,1>@45D9f6(JG!0WT8xY:B;#,4MLo;99Y!1#,<4~}
~{4MLoHTJt9YLo#,5+JG=%=%5XH41dN*WZJR5DK=2zAK!#K{CGUP5h8{VV#,2;1XDIK0#,SP~}
~{@{?IM<#,WTH;JG6`6`RfIF!#;J5[8x5D4MLoOSIYAK#,1cULWEH(JFG?U<CqLo!#SZJG>9~}
~{O`@)U9#,H:FpP'SH#,A,;J5[R2?4WEQ[:l#,8zWEH%G@#,C{T;!0;JW/!1!#5+Lo5XJGSP~}
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~{5+IqWZ2;9\#,S21F:~9c9NLo#,:~9cQ28'RrN*J5TZ9N2;3vLo@4#,!0GkJdRxRT4z#,5[~}
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~{6~Dj#,;9C;=IGe!#~}
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~{Ww4u#,ScHbHKCq!#OsU}5BDj<d5DD~Mu#,!0QxH:5AcIX%KD!"AhJ.R;5H#,=Y2F=-:~<d#,~}
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~{!0J}J.0YHK#,HUHk9Y8.#,Pz:t:aKw#,S{>!KyGs!#!19YT1Ok6cWEK{CGR22;PP#:!0Sy~}
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~{3/U_R`HhRT7G@q!#!1~}
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~{U~8.51H;V;D\MOG7:M4rU[?[#,GWMu?$MuWTH;2;J\S0Ol#,5+?$MuRTOB5D?I>M2RAK#,~}
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~{5D#,1c5=4&UPR!W2F-#,GCU)@UKw#,N^6q2;Ww#,@OJ50Q=;5D#,1cV;SPK@B7R;Lu!#72~}
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~{9VWVWw4MC{!#C;G.;_B8@q2?9YT15D#,1cR;12WSC;SPC{WV!#;J<R5\WS5D;iRv#,R2SI~}
~{@q2?9\O=#,C;G.H%4r5c#,5=@OR2;92;D\;i<^!#R;V15=AKCwD)#,3/M"VUSZ7"AK4H1/#,~}
~{;JWeR2?IRT2N<S?F>Y#,?IRTWv9Y#,?IRTWTD1IzB7AK!#5+JGL+MmAK#,2;>C>MMv9zAK#,~}
~{6xUbJ1#,VlT*h05DV1O5WSKo#,RQ71Q\5=J.<8MrHK!#~}
~{    
             ~{7=V[WS#,~} ~{WTC@@v='!"CZO*9!!"@6PG!#~}


From fangshim@student.msu.edu Thu Oct 21 11:36:38 EST 1993
Article: 20580 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 31  ~{
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993  20:10 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 55
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931020201027.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7?ITZ~}ifcss.org, cd act\archives\history\ming-history
~{UR5=!#~}
~{:?WrLlLa5=!09sV]IhJ!JGCw3u5D4sJB!1#,NRCG=qLl>MY)Y)Ub8v4sJB!#~}
~{
               ~{!64sCwP!J7!2H}J.R;!3!*!*9sV]IhJ!!7~}
~{
    ~{9sV]#,TZ9E4zN*B^J)9m9z!#Jq::J1#,SPR;N;RMWeHK8zKfVn8pAADOUwCO;qSP9&#,~}
~{J\7bN*B^5i9zMu#,@z>-LFKN#,6<WwN*VP9z5D8=Jt9z!#T*3/TZ9sV]IhVCAKP{N?J9K>!#~}
~{VAU}6~J.NeDj#,VlT*h02y3}3BSQAB#,K<DO!"K<V]5DP{N?J9BJOH9i8=!#:iNdNeDj#,~}
~{9sV]P{N?J9SkM,V*5HOH:s@49i#,VlT*h06<C|K{CGRTT-9YJ@O.!#:iNdJ.NeDj#,VC9s~}
~{V]6<V8;SJ9K>#,C|F=A9:n9K3I!"HjDO:nC7K<WfJpK>JB#,N4VC?$OX#,83K0WT1c!#S@~}
~{@VJ.R;Dj#,3IWfIhVC9sV]2<U~J9K>#,VA4K#,9sV]2EU}J=APHkVP9z0fM<!#6T9sV]?*~}
~{Ih9&@MWn4s5DJG4+FfPTHKNo9K3I!#~}
    ~{9K3I#,Wf<.OfL6#,Wf88TZ=-;4V.<d;.4,D1Iz#,6(>SSZ=-6<!#9K3IIm2D?}N`#,~}
~{1[A&9}HK#,IFFoBmJ9G9!#VlT*h06I=-:s#,9K3I1;B<SCN*UJG0GW1x#,LfVlT*h0DC;*~}
~{8G!#SPR;4NP!4,8iG3#,K{>913Fp4,>MW_!#9%4rUr=-J1#,K{WwN*8RK@6S#,SkJ.C{SB~}
~{J?OH9%=x3GH%#,1;W%;q#,AmMbJ.8vHK6<1;4&K@AK#,=+I1K{J1#,K{LxFp@4#,UuMQAK~}
~{I~Kw#,4r59AK9tWSJV#,LSAK;XH%#,TYR}5<4s<R4r=xH%#,1;I}N*0Y;'!#4K:s5D4sP!~}
~{J}J.U=#,K{6<SP9&@M#,I}N*<a3GN@V8;SY]JB!#RT:s7%KD4(#,F=9sV]#,UwTFDO#,K{~}
~{5D9&@M6<:\4s#,R;V1Ww5=AKSR>|6<6=Y]JB#,EeUwDO=+>|S!!#UwTFDOJ1#,9K3IJGG0~}
~{7f#,9%?KFU6(#,K{AtOBJX3G!#SPJ}Mr!0EQBy!1@49%#,K{3e3vH%#,GWJVI15PJ}J.0Y~}
~{HK#,5PHK1;K{5DSBCMIe7~#,37MK5=AKDO3G!#9K3I0QR;C{7}B27E;XH%#,HCK{4+;0K5#:~}
~{!0NRMmIO6~9D5DJ1:r>M@4I1DcCG!#!15=MmIO6~9D#,K{C|JVOB45=GCyEZ#,5PHKL}5=#,~}
~{H+6<OEE\AK!#~}
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~{64U/IO0Y8v#,6<JGV;I1FdJWAl#,028'VZHK#,6wPE4s2<#,M~UqDOVP#,MAHK6TK{7G3#~}
~{L{7~#,IuVAA"Izlt<@0]!#~}
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~{6(1;7}!#Q`Mu=bFd8?#,6TK{K5#:!04KLlRT6{JZNRR2!#!10QK{KM5=11F=#,8(VzJ@WS~}
~{JX3G#,JX>|5D7@Sy5w6HR;BIL}K{5D!#K{N*HK=2ReFx#,N*AK1\CbSk3/M"5D>|6S6T@]#,~}
~{2;?O4x1x3v3G#,R22;?O=SJ\J@WSIMK{5D1xFw!#~}
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~{KjAK!#3IWfTx6TJL3<K5#:!0::Nd5[Gn1xwrNd#,RTJBT67=#,F#1VVP9z#,k^N^H!QI!#~}
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~{Lo6<W%AKH%#,3GVP>9N^HKV*O~#,V15=SPR;Ll#,<{L{3v2<8fK5#:!03/M"RT6~PWHU99~}
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~{2EV*5@7"IzAKJ2C4JB#,N^2;L{7~!#9K3I0Q6~Lo<0;Fl{KM5=>)J&#,3IWfVNLoh!;Fl{~}
~{5DWo#,1>Ok?mK!LoWZ6&!#2;AOUbLoWZ6&2;V*H$#,R*GsCp>xLoh!;Fl{5DGWWe53Sp#,~}
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~{K>!2<4J!!3#,7VK<V]!"K<DON*0K8.KDV]#,0K8.JGK<DO!"UrT6!"M-HJ!"NZB^!"K<V]!"~}
~{PB;/!"@hF=!"J/Zd#,KDV]JGFU02!"S@D~!"UrD~!"02K3#,2<U~J9K>5DQCCEIhTZ9sQt~}
~{3G#,OBCfSPF_J.Ne3$9YK>#,Jt;'2?!#Ih9sV]6<V8;SJ9#,AlJ.0KN@#,SPF_8v3$9YK>#,~}
~{Jt1x2?!#8.RTOB2NSCMA9Y#,MA9Y5D3/917{PEJt@q2?#,3PO.Jt@t2?#,MA1xJt1x2?!#~}
~{=/M"h6N*5ZR;HNWs2<U~J9#,=/InZORMGi#,TZ6~Lo4s6/8I8jJ1#,Tx7nC|5w=b!#~}
    ~{S@@VJ.KDDj#,Ih9sV]LaPL042lK>#,;'2?!"PL2?8wTv9sV]R;K>#,FdOg918=SZTF~}
~{DO!#~}
    ~{9K3IK@SZS@@VJ.6~Dj#,OmDj0KJ.NeKj#,TyOD9z9+!#~}
~{
           ~{7=V[WS#,WTC@@v='!"CZO*9!!"@6PG!#~}


From hchen@s1.msi.umn.edu Thu Oct 21 11:49:43 EST 1993
Article: 20611 of alt.chinese.text
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx.unm.edu!umn.edu!msi.umn.edu!hchen
From: hchen@s1.msi.umn.edu (Hao Chen)
Subject: Re: Ming History 31 ~{
Message-ID: <hchen.751177358@msi.umn.edu>
Sender: news@news2.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: s1.msi.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
References: <19931020201027.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 04:22:38 GMT
Lines: 44


~{~}
~{!64sCwP!J7!7R;B7?3I19}@4#,TZOB5D4s:ESV1;9RIO#,V;:C2t:MA=>d!#~}
~{VwR*JGOk=bJMR;OBN*:N!09sV]IhJ!JGCw3u5D4sJB!1#,R2Ok1mCwR;OBTZ~}
~{OB5DIYJ}CqWe9[Dn:MVP;*ND;/9[Dn!#~}
~{~}
~{OHK5N*:N9sV]IhJ!JGCw3u5D4sJB!#~}
~{SPHKTxLa<09EO#@0NDCw6TCqVw5D91OW!"9EB^BmNDCw6T7(BI5D91OW#,TZ~}
~{VP9z#,SISZVP9zHK5DJ5<J#,VP9zND;/6TJ@=g5D91OWV.R;JGPPU~9\@m!#~}
~{WTGX::RT@4#,4sVBIO=2#,VP9z5DPPU~9\@mK.F=JG3,G0SZFdK{8w9z5D!#~}
~{4sCwP!J7=25=AKCw3/9YV0O5M3#,FdJ5;9?IRT<LPx=2TFDOIhJ!!"9sV]Ih~}
~{J!#,!-!-:\<r5%5D5@@m#,WTSP!6::Ji!7Fp#,DD1>6O4zJ72;0|@(V09YV>~}
~{:M5X@mV>DX#?~}
~{TFDOIhJ!!"9sV]IhJ!#,:COqJGK3@m3IUB#,?ISPP4CwJ75DOV4zHK>MK5#,~}
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~{5|2"N44x@4UfU}5D8oC|#!DGC4K5T*3/2;HgCw3/#,DKV8Cw3/5D9YVF!">|~}
~{VF!"!-!-8D8oAKT*3/LeVF#,TFDOIhJ!!"9sV]IhJ!U}:C74S3AKUbR;5c!#~}
~{~}
~{TYK59sV]U}J=APHkVP9z0fM<5DNJLb!#~}
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~{K>#,VA4K#,9sV]2E3IN*R;8vMjH+5DJ!!#JBJ5IO#,VA4K9sV]R2C;SP8D1d~}
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~{:~DOH}J!!#Hg4S5X=g=2#,9sV]TgRQU}J=APHkVP9z0fM<#!Hg4SCqWe=2#,~}
~{9sV]KdN*J!AK#,HTJGBy;DV.5X#!Cw>|A=4NDOUw#,85SQ5Bl6:iNdJ.KDDj~}
~{<0:iNd6~J.R;Dj5D>|JBUrQ9#,N45CVF7~NwDOUb?iMA5X!#VlT*h04SJ5<y~}
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~{NdJ5B<!7>mR;>E6~#)l6JG4sA?5DRFCq3dJ5AKNwDO5XGx#,KyN=LnDO!#9s~}
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~{J=APHkVP9z0fM<!*!*9sV]1#AtOB@4AKPm6`TZFdK{J!RQO{MvAK5DVP9z9E~}
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~{~}
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~{!08oC|@zJ7!1#,>MRrN*!08oC|FZ<d!1Tx1#V$9}9cNwTZ8oC|3I9&:sOmSP~}
~{!0CqWeWTVN!1#,>MHKN*5X=+M,VV5DCqWe#,TZ9sV]Kc2<R@We#,TZ9cNwKc~}
~{W3We#,?FQ'R@>]#?SZ9zSZWeSZCq:NRf#?NRKyO26A5DVP;*ND;/#,4S@zJ7~}
~{5=NDQ'#,4S9YVF5=5X@m#,2;MbSZ!09sV]IhJ!!1UbQy5D>-J@VBSCV.Q'!#~}
~{8/HeR20U#,DOByR20U#,KfHK=PH%#!~}
~{~}
~{!*!*:?~}


From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sat Oct 23 13:45:57 EST 1993
Article: 20818 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 32  ~{CwJ7H}6~!"02DODZJt~}
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993  16:55 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931022165534.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!74fSZ~}ifcss.org, cd act\archives\history\ming-history
~{2;>CG0SPHKLa5=02DODZJt#,NRCG>M@4L8L84KJB!#~}
~{
              ~{!64sCwP!J7!26~J.6~!3!*!*02DODZJt!7~}
~{
    ~{02DO<4=qT=DO#,9E3F=;V:!#LFS]J1=PDO=;#,!6I=:#>-!7SP=;kV9z#,5+J5<JIO~}
~{TZGXV.G0=;V:2"N^2?BdRTIO5D9z<R!#GXJ<;JM3R;VP9z:s#,1iIh?$OX#,T=DO112?Jt~}
~{SZOs?$!#GXMv#,GX3/5DR;8v9Y@tUTY"8n>]Os?$<0DO:#!"9pAV6~?$#,3IA"DOT=9z#,~}
~{0|@(=qT=DO112?:MA=9c!#::Nd5[CpDOT=#,IhA">E?$#,FdVPOs?$V.5X7VN*=;V:!">E~}
~{Uf:MHUDOH}?$!#>E?$9i=;V:4LJ79\O=!#:s::J1#,3IA"=;V]!#5=AKLF3/#,IhA"02DO~}
~{6<N>Ky#,JtAlDO5@#,J<3F02DO!#4KJ102DOKdHTN*VP9zAlMA#,5+RQSkDZ5X5D?$OXSP~}
~{AK2n1p#,JGKyN=5Dn?CS!2IOBiOBti!35X!#5=AKNe4z#,VP9zDZBR2;RQ#,MAGuNbH(3K~}
~{;zTZ:s=z8_Wf!2<44s::<iJ/>4LA!3Ll8#KDDj3FMu#,VA4K#,02DO2ESI?$OX1d3I7*Jt#,~}
~{5+HT3<7~SZVP9z!#KN3u#,7bFdGuN*=;V:?$Mu#,DOKNP"WZI}7bN*02DO9zMu#,WT4K02~}
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sun Oct 31 19:03:55 EST 1993
Article: 21576 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History  ~{CwJ7H}H}!"=;V:V.Fz~}
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993  17:55 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Wed Nov  3 12:55:07 EST 1993
Article: 22056 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 34  ~{CwJ7#3#4#:=bgF~}
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1993  18:42 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Sat Nov 13 21:10:10 1993
Return-Path: <fangshim@student.msu.edu>
Received: from dasy.bch.msu.edu by u.cc.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0 [uucc-nhj/15FEB1991-nu])
	id AA01665; Sat, 13 Nov 93 21:09:28 MST
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Subject: Re: [INFO] ACT Archive ~{E#J7ND;0~}
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1993  00:10 est
Message-Id: <19931114001018.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Wed Nov 10 21:54:10 MST 1993
Article: 6475 of alt.chinese.text
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!malgudi.oar.net!news.ans.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 37  ~{CwJ7H}F_#:ODT-<*#(IO#)~}
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993  18:55 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Sun Nov 14 17:21:44 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 38  ~{CwJ7#3#8#:ODT-<*VP~}
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1993  01:50 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Tue Nov 16 22:03:45 MST 1993
Article: 7275 of alt.chinese.text
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!eng.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 39  ~{CwJ7#3#9#:IhA"H}N@~}
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993  19:05 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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~{GsDZ8=#,VlT*h01c8n=uRe!"=(@{VnV]A%JtAI6+#,TZ9E;aV]5XIhA"4sD~6<K>#,9\O=S*~}
~{V]5H6~J.S`N@Ky!#:iNdJ.KDDj#,7b;JWSH(N*D~MuUrJX4sD~!#5+w2w0HT2;6O6TFdGVHE#,~}
~{SZJGTZ:iNd6~J.6~Dj#,Z/7VX#A<9~V.5X#,IhA"H}N@6<V8;SJ9K>#,02VCX#A<9~=5VZ#,~}
~{6xRT0"11J'@o5HN*H}N@V8;SJ9M,V*#,J9;%O`IyT.!#UbH}N@JG#:WT4sD~G05VO27e?Z#,~}
~{??=|P{8.#,N*6dQU#;WT=uRe>-9cD~#,VAAI:S#,N*L)D~#;WT;FD`M]>-IrQt!"LzAk#,=S~}
~{?*T-#,N*8#S`!#H}N@V.VP#,RT6dQUWnG?WnOU!#N*AK7@Fd74EQ#,91B7HkWTO27e?Z#,6x~}
~{TZAI6+IhJP=;RW!#5+JG:s@4H}N@;9JG6<74EQCwM"#,6xR@8=11T*!#~}
    ~{>8DQJ1#,Q`Mu5#PDD~MuWT13:sM1K{R;56#,OH:qB8H}N@#,=PK{CGEI1x@49i#,H;:s~}
~{SUV4D~Mu#,NwPPHk9X!#Q`MuQ!AKH}G'X#A<9~2?JtWwN*Ff1x#,BE=(U=9&!#3IWf<4N;:s#,~}
~{0QD~Muac7b=-NwDO2}#,6<K>G(5=1#6(#,6x0Q4sD~KyO=1_5X6<IM8xAKX#A<9~H}N@#,11~}
~{7=5D1_7@Rr6xOwHu!#3IWfN|H!WT<:>8DQ5D=LQ5#,2;7EPDHCWZJRVnMuNUVX1xW$Tz1_=.#,~}
~{Rr4K2ISC!0RTRDVFRD!15DU~2_#,7EFz4sD~#,7bX#A<9~8w2?4sP!Gu3$N*6<6=!"V8;S!"~}
~{G';'!"0Y;'5H9Y#,HCK{CGWvCw3/5DMb7*#,!0>STrUlL=#,>/Tr:4N@!1#,C?Dj9)S&K{CG~}
~{8{E#!"E)>_!"VVWS!"2<2/!">FJ35HNoWJ!#5+JGX#A<9~74EQN^3##,R@8=0"B3L(#,>-3#~}
~{WvCI9E2?WeHkGV5DOr5<!#~}
    ~{S@@V6~J.DjGo#,3IWfGWUw0"B3L(#,;XJ&UwLVX#A<9~!#3IWfBJ2=1x!"Fo1xJ}MrHK#,~}
~{=x>|VAG|AQ6y:S#,<{5=X#A<9~2?VZJ}MrHKMyNw1<LS#,GWBJFo1xW7;w#,U6<6J}0Y#,X#~}
~{A<9~2?VZWTO`<yL$6xK@U_N^J}!#Cw>|W78OH}J.S`@o#,57;YX#A<9~@O32#,4S4KX#A<9~~}
~{5DJFA&ITJ\44!#~}
    ~{P{5BDj<d#,X#A<9~A*:O0"B3L(J13#KE;zHkH{=YBS!#P{5BH}Dj#,P{WZR2Q'K{5DWf~}
~{88@4R;4NSy<]GWUw#,BJ>)S*>|3vQ21_>3#,W$TzJ/CEfdJ1#,JX=+W`3FX#A<9~2?VZMrS`~}
~{HKHkGV#,RQHk4sD~#,=+VA?m:S!#Vn=+=(RiUP</T.>|#,P{WZH4PXSP3IVq#,K5#:!01xTZ~}
~{>+2;TZ6`#,H}G'Wc0lG\Tt!#!1SZJGLtQ!H}G'Fo1x#,C?HKA=F%Bm#,4xJ.HUA8#,A,R93v~}
~{O27e?Z#,<23[KDJ.@o#,8O5=?m:S#,>`5PS*6~J.@oJ1#,5PHK7">u#,O$VZS-U=!#P{WZC|~}
~{Fo1x7VA=Rm<P;w#,GWWT3vUs#,IdK@5PHKH}C{#,>|PD4sUq#,7IJ8HgSj#,Iq;zEZ2"7"#,~}
~{X#A<9~2;D\5V52#,@#W_!#P{WZSVBJAlJ}0YFo1xW78O#,X#A<9~M{<{;FAzFl#,V*5@JG;J~}
~{5[GWUw#,4s>*#,H+6<OBBm9r0]#,Gk=5!#P{WZC|An0QK{CG6<0sAK#,U6FdJWAl!#SVC|Vn~}
~{=+GnKQFdW!5X!#H}N@M7D?=TP;WoHk91#,P{WZR`G2J98'ZM!#~}
    ~{P{5BNeDj#,CwM"7EFz?*F=N@!#?*F=N@JG:iNdDj3u9%?KT*3/IO6<J1IhVC5D#,U=BT~}
~{N;VCO`51VXR*#,5+JGWT4S3IWf7EFz4sD~:s#,?*F=JF9BDQJX#,SZJGP{WZ0Q4sF=N@G(5=~}
~{AK6@J/#,7EFzAKH{11H}0Y@o5X!#WT4K#,Az8T!"BP:SV.OU>!J'#,1_7@SzOT?UPi#,Cw3/~}
~{6TCI9E2?We7@Sy5DO`6TSEJF#,Vp=%I%J'AK!#~}
    ~{U}M3Dj<d#,X#A<9~R@8=M_X]#,SZJ.KDDjWvM_X]HkGV5DOr5<#,S"WZR2@4R;4NSy<\~}
~{GWUw#,=a9{NeJ.Mr4s>|H+>|82C;#,S"WZWT<:R21;7}#,J73F!0MACEV.1d!1!#~}
    ~{4K:sX#A<9~J1EQJ17~#,1_JB2;6O!#Mr@z3u#,6dQU3$0:2?BdRfG?#,3#OrCwM"R*OA~}
~{GkIM#,2;Kl1c>@VZHkBS#,=X6B915@!#Cw>|UwLV#,I1IKO`51!#V15=3FP[H{IOKDJ.Dj5D~}
~{3$0:K@#,Fd2?BdK%Hu#,H}N@2E4S4KN^JB!#~}
    ~{3glu3u#,X#A<9~=57~SZGe!#~}
    ~{!22N?<!6CwJ7!76dQU8#S`L)D~4+!"!6CwJ7<MJB1>D)!7!0IhA"H}N@!1!"!6Cw;aR*!7~}
~{!0NZA::#!1!3~}
~{
      ~{7=V[WS#,!02`ImLl5X8|;39E#,;XJW7g3>8JO";z!#!1~}


From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Sun Nov 21 17:28:18 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 40  ~{CwJ7KDJ.!">E1_VXUr~}
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993  19:27 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931121192740.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0
Status: R

~{1>@4JG<F;.TYP4R;F*=iI\ODT-<*5DisJB#,OkOkR2>u5CC;J2C41XR*#,;9JG<LPx=iI\~}
~{1_7@#,OW8xK-R22;8R515DMxIOCqWeQ'W(<R!#~}
~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7GkUR~}ifcss.org, cd act/archives/history/ming-history
~{ 
               ~{!64sCwP!J7!2KDJ.!3!*!*>E1_VXUr!7~}
~{
    ~{VlT*h0V;JG0QT*>|8O3vAK3$3G#,2"N48O>!I1>x!#T*3/5D2P4fJFA&KdH;>-3#;%O`~}
~{2PI1#,SPJ1G?J"SPJ1K%Hu#,5+R;V1GVHECw3/5D1_>3#,FsM<>mMAVX@4!#Rr4K#,Cw3/WT~}
~{=(9zFp#,Fd9z7@>MR;V1RT117=1_UrWnN*VXR*#,6xSPCwR;4z#,117=5D1_;<R24SN4M#V9~}
~{9}#,V15=MvSZR;8vPBPK5D117=CqWe!*!*E.UfWe!#~}
    ~{:iNdDj3u#,VlT*h0<4TZ117=IhAI6+!2=qAID~AIQt!3!"4sM,!"P{8.!2=q:S11P{;/!3!"~}
~{QSKgKDUr#,2;>CSVIhD~OD!"8JK`!2TZUER4!3!"<;V]!2=q:S11<;OX!3H}Ur#,FdUrJXN*~}
~{NdV04s3<#,La6=TrN*NDV04s3<!#SVRTI=NwUrQ2M3T&F+M7H}9X#,IBNwUrQ2M3T&9LT-#,~}
~{R23FN*L+T-!"9LT-6~Ur#,Ub>EUrM33F!0>E1_!1!#>E1_6+FpQ<BL=-#,Nw5=<NSx9X#,C`~}
~{QSMr@o!#~}
    ~{VlT*h0SVTZ3$3GRT11=(A"4sD~N@!2=qAhT4!3!"?*F=N@!2=qDZCI9E6`BW!3!"6+J$~}
~{N@!2=qDZCI9E:t:M:FLX!3H}8v>|JBVXUr#,WwN*>E1_5DMbN'>]5c!#SZR*:&V.5X#,HgWO~}
~{>#9X!"B+;(Al!"9E11?Z!">SS99X!"O27e?Z!"KIM$9X5H4&#,R26<VC1xJyJX!#SZJG6+Fp~}
~{AIQt#,Nw>-4sD~!"?*F=!"PK:M!"6@J/!"6+J$#,5V4sM,#,J}G'@o<d#,8w1_UrN@Ky6<W$~}
~{>|6S!"?*MMLo#,IyJFO`A,#,PN3IAKR;Lu@N9L5D7@NqO_!#~}
    ~{FdVP#,I=:#9XDK9XDZMb=;M(J`E&#,5XJFWnN*VXR*#,E.UfPKFp:s#,RT4K5XW$1xWn~}
~{6`#,IhW\1x:M>-BT8:TpUrJX!#~}
    ~{W$JX1_Ur5D>|6S3FN*1_1x#,W\1x9YW\UrU}1x#,81W\1xAlH}G'HKWwN*Ff1x#,SN;w~}
~{R2AlH}G'HKMy@47@Sy#,N*SN1x#,9'=+7VJX8wB7R*H{#,6+Nw;%O`2_S&#,N*T.1x!#~}
    ~{S@@VDj<d#,3IWfWT6/7EFz4sD~N@#,0Q4sD~KyO=1_5XIM8xX#A<9~#,4S4K111_J'R;~}
~{VXUr#,AI6+SkP{8.!"4sM,5DA*BgR2Rr4KWh>x!#3IWfSVac6+J$WsN@SZS@F=#,SRN@SZWq~}
~{;/#,P{WZ8|RrL+F=N@9BT6DQJX#,acSZ6@J/#,H}N@>!J'#,1_7@5DPNJF4sN*OwHu!#RTG0~}
~{JG1_7@5Z6~O_5DP{8.!"4sM,R2Vp=%1dN*WnG0O_5DR*H{AK#,117=5D9z7@O_Rr4K2=2=DO~}
~{RF!#~}
    ~{2;9}3IWf6T1_7@;9JGO`51VXJS5D#,WTP{8.RTNw#,V1VAI=Nw1_T5#,!0=T>~T+In:>#,~}
~{7i\)O`=S!1#,72M(35Bm5D0/?Z#,Ih0Y;'7@JX#,V;SPiT7rDACq5D0/?Z#,R202VC1_1xJ.~}
~{HKJyJX!#S"WZU}M3T*Dj#,RrN*D~ODKyO=5DMM1$>yTZ:SMb#,?uT6DQJX#,SIW\1xJ7UQ=(~}
~{Ri#,TZ;(Bm3XV~IZBmS*#,RT1c2_S&!#O\WZ3I;/F_Dj#,QSKgQ28'S`WS?!4sV~1_3G#,6+~}
~{Fp;F8&4(#,NwVA6(1_S*#,92R;G'6~0YS`@o!#6xTZG=DZ#,WTF+M7VAD~9L#,G5I=\'9H#,~}
~{3FV.N*<P5@!#UbP)1_3G#,7G3#<a9L#,JXN@5D=+J?R2S"SBMgG?#,11HK3FV.N*BfMU3G#,~}
~{R;J1V.<d#,Nw117@NqFDN*UqbA!#~}
    ~{5+JG1_7@5D3[;5#,R2JG4S3IWfJ1Vp=%?*J<5D!#:iNdJ1#,F=J1V;HC3vIz1>5X5DJ?~}
~{1x:MSPWoZXJyU_JX1_#,1_>3SPJB2E5w6/DZ5X5D>|6S#,3FN*?M>|!#3IWfH4C|DZ5X5D>|~}
~{6S6<R*BVAwJy1_#,3FN*1_0`#,4S4K1_1xLSMv5DHKJ}Vp=%6`Fp@4!#6x1_>|5DMMLoVF6H#,~}
~{4SP{5B!"U}M3J1FpR2?*J<Tb5=FF;5#,7VW$8w1_Ur5DGWMu!"L+<`!">|9Y5H6<UyO`GVU<~}
~{MMLo#,R[J9>|6!N*K{CG8{VV#,>|6!2;?0E04}#,LSMv5D>M8|6`AK!#51J15DU}EI9Y@t#,~}
~{OsI=Nw!":SDOQ28'SZG+#,P{4sQ28'B^:`PEInV*NJLbQOVX#,6T;B9Y<0FdK=535DKyN*<+~}
~{Fd2;Bz#,N*N,;$MMLoVF6H2;7OS`A&#,OsSZG+>MTx!0>!6aUr=+K=?QLoN*9YMM#,RTWJ1_~}
~{SC!1#,6xB^:`PER2FHJ9CwM"M#V9UwJU>|6!K=?QLo5DLoK0!#~}
    ~{1_>|MMLo;92;D\Wv5=A8J3WT8x#,VlT*h01cOBAnQNILV;D\DC1_>35DA8J3@4;;QNR}#,~}
~{SZJG8;IL4s<V7W7W3vG.UYD<E)Cq5=1_>3?*;D?QLo#,1_>35DA82VR2Rr4K3dWcAK!#5+JG~}
~{5=AKP"WZ:kVNDj<d#,;'2?IPJiR6d?H4HCQNILDIRx;;R}#,6xSIL+2V9)8x1_>3SCA8#,QN~}
~{ILCGWTH;2;TY9\1_>35DA82VJG7qW05CBz#,1_5XHU<{;DN_#,1_>35DA8<[T=@4T=9s#,1_~}
~{>|SCA8R2T=@4T=@'DQAK!#~}
    ~{NdWZRT:s#,1_=+C0bC#,1_1xLSMv#,VnHg4K@`5DJBRQK>?U<{9_#,1_18HU=%7O3X!#~}
    ~{!22N?<!6CwJ7!7!01xV>!1!"!0SZG+4+!1#,!6Cw;aR*!7!01_7@!1!3~}
~{
     ~{7=V[WS#,!0H}Dj5Q@o9XI=TB#,Mr9z1xG02]D>7g!#!1~}

From fangshim@student.msu.edu Fri Nov 26 16:27:29 MST 1993
Article: 8420 of alt.chinese.text
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 41  ~{CwJ7#4#1#:S@@V4s5d~}
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1993  16:17 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931125161731.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0
Status: R

~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7GkUR~}ifcss.org, cd act\archives\history\ming-history
~{
              ~{!64sCwP!J7!2KDJ.R;!3!*!*S@@V4s5d!7~}
~{
    ~{S@@VT*Dj!2R;KDAcH}Dj!3GoF_TB#,3IWfRrN*>u5C!0LlOB9E=qJBNoI"TXVnJi#,1`~}
~{`y:Fl|#,2;RW<lTD!#!1Z/SwJL6A:2AVQ'J?=bgF5HHK1`Wk@`Ji#,!072JiFuRT@4#,>-!"~}
~{J7!"WS!"</!"0Y<RVASZLlND!"5XV>!"RuQt!"R=27!"I.5@!"<<RUV.QT#,18<-N*R;Ji#,~}
~{NcQa:F71!#!15Z6~Dj5DJ.R;TB#,=bgF5HHK0QWk3I5D@`Ji=xOW#,4MC{!6NDOW4s3I!7!#~}
~{2;>C#,3IWf7-AKUb2?@`Ji#,HTOSFd9}SZ<rB*#,>v6(4sUEFl9D=xPPVXP^#,C|L+WSIYJ&~}
~{R&9cP"!"PL2?JL@IAu<>sx<0=bgFW\9\4KJB#,RT:2AVT:Q'J?Mu>05HNeHKN*W\2C#,:2AV~}
~{T:JL6AW^<)5H6~J.HKN*81W\2C#,C|@q2?Q!0N8w5X5DNDHK3d51WkP^#,9zWS<`<08w5XOX~}
~{Q'5DIzT1IIP4#,2N<S5DHKJ}4oH}G'HK!#TZNDT(8s?*9]#,SI9bB;KB9)S&;oJ3!#~}
    ~{?*J<J1V;JG2ISCNDT(8s5D2XJi!#NDT(8s5D2XJi4s2?7VJGPl4o4rOB4s6<:s4ST*9,~}
~{TK@45D!#S@@VKDDj#,3IWf5=NDT(8sJS2l#,NJ2XJiJG7q9;SC#,=bgF1'T9K5;9H1:\6`Ji!#~}
~{SZJG3IWfC|@q2?IPJiV#4MG2J9KD3v7C9:Cq<d2XJi#,SP:CJiR*2;O'R;GP4z<[BrOB@4#,~}
~{2;R*LV<[;9<[!#~}
    ~{S@@VNeDjJ.R;TB#,Ji3I#,4MC{!6S@@V4s5d!7#,3IWfWT<:P4AKR;F*Pr#,SVIMAK2N~}
~{<S1`Wk5DHKT1926~G'R;0YAyJ.>EHK!#TZ1`Wk9}3LVP#,922ISCAKF_0KG'VVM<Ji#,R@UU~}
~{!6:iNdU}TO!75DTOD?#,=+UbP)Ji<.U{2?!"U{F*;rU{6NRTTON*Pr1`Hk!#H+Ji926~Mr6~~}
~{G'>E0YH}J.F_>m#,R;MrR;G'>EJ.Ne2a#,H}RZF_G'6`MrWV#,JGHK@`@zJ7IO?UG0>x:s5D~}
~{1`7yWn4s5DR;2?Ji!#~}
    ~{RrN*>mVHL+4s#,J<VUN4D\?/PP#,V;SPR;8vJV3-5DU}1>#,G(6<5DJ1:r#,TK5=AK11~}
~{>)!#<N>8Dj<d#,3-AKR;8v811>!#:s@4#,2;V*TZJ2C4J1:r#,U}1>;YJ'#,V;J#Ub8v<N>8~}
~{811>R;V11#4fTZ;J<R55089];JJ73I!2!03I!1WVSP1&8GM7!3!#GeS:U}Dj<d#,W*RF5=6+~}
~{=;CqOo5D:2AVT:!#G,B!J1N*1`Wk!6KD?bH+Ji!7:M!6H+LFND!7#,Tx6T!6S@@V4s5d!7Ww~}
~{AKGe5c#,7"OVV;J#OB>EG'S`2a#,5+JG;9JG4SVP7">r3v:\6`WJAO!#1`MjAK!6KD?bH+Ji!7#,~}
~{!6S@@V4s5d!71c1;JxV.8_8s#,HNJsDv3fR'#,N^HK9}NJ#,6x>-@zDj1;GT1;;Y#,SVB=Px~}
~{;YJ'AK2;IY!#~}
    ~{!6S@@V4s5d!7Wn:s5D4sDQAYM7#,JGTZ9bPw6~J.AyDj!2R;>EAcAcDj!3#,0K9zA*>|~}
~{4rHkAK11>)#,W];p7YIU#,?uJ@4s5d4s2?7V6<1d3IAK;R=}#,PR4f5DR;P!2?7V#,R21;5[~}
~{9zVwReU_BS6aAKH%!#~}
    ~{V.:s#,11>)M<Ji9]>-6`Dj=_>!H+A&5DJU</#,W\KcUR5=AKR;0YR;J.2a#,5+JG#,Fd~}
~{VP5DAyJ.2a#,TZ?9HUU=UyJ1#,1;9zCqU~8.SIIO:#TK5=AKC@9z#,SPH%N^;X!#~}
    ~{>]2;MjH+M3<F#,OV4f5D!6S@@V4s5d!72EH}0YF_J.Ne2a#,6`J}7V2XSZNw7=9z<R5D~}
~{M<Ji9];r8vHKJU2X#,6xRTC@9z!"S"9zWn6`!#~}
    ~{922z53=(9zV.3u#,Sk6+E7Ig;aVwRe9z<R4&SZC[TBJ1FZ#,SPPR4SK|CGDG@oR*;XAK~}
~{R;P)!6S@@V4s5d!75D2P>m#,KUA*OH:sH}4NKM;9AyJ.2a#,6+5BTrKM;9H}2a!#~}
    ~{:\6`TgRQI"X}5D9EJi#,H+??UbP)2P>m1#4fAKOB@4#,SI4KR2?I<{!6S@@V4s5d!75D~}
~{1;;Y#,6TSZVP9z5DNDQ'!"RUJu!"@zJ7QP>?#,JGR;8v6`C4>^4s5DN^7(CV295DKpJ'!#~}
~{
       ~{7=V[WS#,~} ~{!0Mr9z3GM745;-=G#,4KGz0'T9:NJ1VU!#!1~}


From news.doit.wisc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Mon Nov 29 23:01:11 CST 1993
Article: 14769 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.doit.wisc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 42 ~{CwJ7#4#2#:S@@V4s5dV.6~~}
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993  20:50 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 41
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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Status: R

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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Mon Nov 15 10:33:56 MST 1993
Article: 7074 of alt.chinese.text
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History ~{J7SPCwND#?Cw3u5DCqWeU~2_~}
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993  01:15 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931115011547.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0
Status: RO

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Article 9128 of alt.chinese.text:
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History  ~{CwJ7#:J7SPCwND#?;X6<HKOHIz~}
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1993  21:04 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 458
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931202210412.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

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> > It was clearly stated in Ming Lyu Ji Jie, in all its various
> > editions, Chinese as well as Korean, that the Ming code prohibited
> > marriages between a Mongol and a Mongol, a SeMu person and a SeMu
> > person.  In fact, some scholars even interpret it as a strict ban
> > extending to marriages between a Mongol and a SeMu.  Whatever the
> > exact scope, the effect is clear:  non-Han folks were forbidden to
> > have endogamy.  You can call it effective genocide through
> > extinction, if you like.
~{
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~{
> > example of what I have called "Class Revenge".   But the other
> > offense, namely levirate, would appear much less benign than
> > endogamy.  Indeed. it was literally deadly.  It was a capital
> > offense.  It could in all consideration be described as downright
> > political and cultural persecution of SOME ethnic minorities who
> > were almost required by their custom to commit it.
~{
~{!!!!~}levirate~{JGPV3$K@AK#,5\5\H"AKI)WS5DRbK<!#5DH7#,TZR;P)SNDACqWe
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~{
~{!!!!Wn:s#,6<HKOHIzSV>Y@}K5#:
~{
> > A revealing incident suggestive of what non-Hans in China might
> > have been subjected to during those years, as well as indicative of
> > the pending fate of the Christianity in early Ming China, is the
> > documented "martyrdom" of James of Florence, a Franciscan bishop.
> > He was allegedly murdered in Hangzhou in 1362, supposedly already
> > under the control of Zhu Yuan-zhang.  Unfortunately it would be in
> > vain for Mr. Fang to find this case in his "official history", or
> > in any Chinese source, for that matter.
~{
~{!!!!6<HKOHIzK55C2;4m#,NR8y1>2;;aH%2i#<CwJ7#>;rFdK{J7JiH%URUbLu<GTX!#
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~{
> ~{!<T*3/!=9,M"3vLSV.aa1cJGR;3!?IEB5DQ*O4!"7EW]5DM@I1#,R;Us;YCp?q!#~}
> ~{6THN:NSkCI9ESP9XO55DHK6<>xN^?mK!!#H}8vTB@o#,2P1)5DJ?1xSk9tWSJVm'~}
> ~{Rb:aPP!#CI9EHK1;I1K@TZ=V5@IO!"KBT:@o!"<`S|DZ!"USTsVP#,1;4S3GB%EW~}
> ~{OB#,1;SCR;GP?ID\5D7=J=I1K@!#?ITw5D!<CI9E!=M3VNU_=(A"5D6+NwR;5cR2~}
> ~{2;D\7E9}#::v1XAR5D9,5n1;RDN*F=5X#,A,11>)5D3GG=R21;;Y5tAK!#4sM@I1~}
> ~{V.aa#,V1A%J!R;F,;DN_#,2;5C2;4SI=NwJ!UPD<RFCq#,RTJ94eW/VX<{HKQL!"~}
> ~{E)LoTY5C8{VV!-!-~}
>
> ~{SkCI9EHKM,J1O{J'5DJGTxJ\Fd1#;$5DMb9zHK!#PE7n;y6==L;rRAK9@<=L5D6(~}
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> ~{U{5D!#~}
>
~{
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~{!!!!!!7=V[WS!#
~{
~{RTOBJG6<HKOHIz5D2)Q':hND#,5+T88wN;SPNR5DDMPD#,P@IMR;OB!#
> Forwarded message:
> > From root Mon Nov 29 22:05:28 1993
> > From: Wei Lin ~{AVgb~} <wlin@CND.ORG>
> > Message-Id: <9311300305.AA23641@cnd.org>
> > Subject: Re: your comments on a recent HXWZ article
> > To: fangshim@student.msu.edu
> > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:05:28 -0800 (PST)
> > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > Content-Length: 15201
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> >     Your comment relayed to cnd-cm via Tu Ya was forwarded to the
> > author of the article, from whom I just received the following reply.
> > The reply is a private one (not sent to cnd-cm) addressed to me.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Lin Wei, aka Tang Hong, Editor of HXWZ #137
> > ------------------------
> > To: wlin@CND.ORG
> > Subject: FWD from Du Ren
> >
> > Dear Lin Wei,
> >
> > It is unfortunate that I am still in the middle of (the aftermath of)
> > a bad political firestorm and would have to work very hard in the next
> > few weeks, but I do feel honored to take on the "Central Asia project".
> > Delivery by January should be assured (though anything earlier does
> > seem a bit problematic in terms of schedule).
> >
> > The following is my response to Mr. Fang Shimin's comments on my
> > "Fox Commentary", as informed by you and forwarded to me by
> > friends.  It is appreciated that my response would be forwarded to
> > Mr. Fang.  The reasons to choose this private channel will become
> > clear later.
> >
> > Frankly, it is rather entertaining to read such "well-substantiated
> > criticism" with all its self-confidence, self-righteousness and
> > unmistaken sarcasm, while in fact the "questions" raised had all
> > been thought through by the original author.  But one thing still
> > puzzling is that  Mr. Fang, in his obvious indignation at what he
> > later characterizes as WuJiZhiTan, seems to have ignored basic
> > logic in his arguments.
> >
> > To be more specific, let me point out that Mr. Fang does not seem
> > to realize my mild and modest criticism of the late Prof. Chen Yin-
> > ke, whom I admire no less than Mr. Fang seems to, but with a more
> > balanced view on the not-so-few "inaccuracies" in Chen's work that
> > Mr. Fang appears unaware of, will stand whether or not the Su-Bei
> > story proves historically accurate.  It will hold true because
> > Chen's claim that no one on earth had ever brought up this
> > "ancient-foreigners-tended-to-have-this-'fox'-problem" is simply
> > not correct, as it had been folklore in parts of China for many
> > generations.
> >
> > In addition to all his academic achievements, Prof. Chen Yin-ke was
> > known to be a decent and humble man.  Therefore it is hard to
> > imagine he would have concurred with Mr. Fang's implied notion that
> > those generations of common folks together with whatever opinion
> > they may have held or expressed were, as far as our learned Mr.
> > Fang is concerned, practically worthless or at any rate not
> > something that could be considered having ever mattered at all in
> > this world.
> >
> > One point that I could not entertain because of the space
> > constraint imposed on the original commentary is:  though very
> > interesting, the folklore stories were only part of many people's
> > unprompted self-claim, the maternal line of my informant being one,
> > that they were descendants of some of these non-Hans who had fled
> > to Su-Bei to escape alleged Ming-instigated  persecutions,
> > political as well as cultural.   In view of such widespread belief
> > and assertions of these events, it is of course quite unfortunate
> > that our knowledgeable Ming "expert" fails to find any in the
> > "official history".  Again, unlike Mr. Fang, I would usually feel
> > at least some minimal respect for people's self-claimed ancestry,
> > just as I would not casually call whatever Mr. Fang's reported
> > ancestry "WuJiZhiTan", though I really could not care less about
> > the latter.
> >
> > Mr. Fang's other learned comments also make one wonder.  Besides
> > the Ming period on which he claims to have studied "for years" (but
> > obviously has not gone into anything that is more than just skin-
> > deep as we shall demonstrate later), how much does he know about
> > Chinese history?   His later claim that ancient Han regimes hardly
> > ever oppressed minorities "to the south of the Great Wall" is
> > particularly pregnant with untold consequences.  For, if ever made
> > known to some "serious" circle, this claim may well become the
> > laughing stock of the century, although a more likely scenario is
> > no one except Yours Humbly here would ever give it more than a
> > yawn.
> >
> > In addition to the Ran3 Min3 story in the original commentary on
> > which I had provided the reference but which was utterly ignored by
> > Mr. Fang, may I respectfully urge Mr. Fang to read the record of
> > Liu Yu, the founding emperor of the (Liu) Song dynasty, concerning
> > his destruction of the Murong Kingdom of the Southern Yan?  Liu's
> > blood-thirsty actions in "Class Revenge", a notion Mr. Fang has
> > questioned repeatedly, was even criticized by a fellow elite Han,
> > the famous (Zhao) Song historian Sima Guang, as much worse than
> > what some prominent non-Han "Barbarian" political leaders did in
> > the Chinese realm.  The whole point is China, like any other major
> > civilizations in the world, has had quite a few dark pages on
> > ethnic conflicts initiated by non-Hans as well as by the Hans.  It
> > may be both wise and advisable not to delve too much in these
> > ancient historical wounds, but Mr. Fang's denial of the existence
> > of such ugly incidents is obviously ostrich-like.
> >
> > Now we can finally come to this specific topic of the Yuan-Ming
> > transition.  Again, frankly Mr. Fang's supremely confident
> > challenges would make me advise him SINCERELY that the most risky
> > thing for a "learned student" to do is to base his own arguments on
> > such shallow readings of history, and, worse still, to believe
> > others must have done the same.
> >
> > First, Mr. Fang's quoting and then dismissal of some "litmus test"
> > type folklore stories reflect a profound ignorance of the
> > fundamental difference in terms of "ethnic" (and political,
> > religious as well as cultural) backgrounds between the Yuan-Ming
> > transition and the Republican revolution.  In fact, studies of this
> > topic, albeit not necessarily in languages Mr. Fang is particularly
> > proficient in, are not hard to find.  This shibboleth test is
> > nothing new either, as it has existed in various versions but with
> > surprising similarity in different parts of China and can usually
> > be traced back to the Yuan-Ming period. Its historical significance
> > will demonstrate itself later, if not in the Ran Min story I have
> > mentioned.   But in reply to Mr. Fang's indignant dismissal of them
> > as groundless and as devoid of any tangible historical truth, let
> > me cite the verifiable stories of the Battle of the Bulges in WWII,
> > and even some recent stories about the Sino-Vietnamese border war
> > in the late 1970s.  If Mr. Fang is not interested in contemporary
> > politics but is by chance more spiritually inclined, let me refer
> > him to Bible-based etymology of the word shibboleth itself.
> >
> > But "none of them are documented in the official history", as Mr.
> > Fang would complain, and as is clearly the case with some modern
> > official  "history" in which numerous folklore stories with "bad"
> > political or social contents or implications would also be found
> > missing.  Okay, let us turn to one "official history" and see what
> > it may tell us about the true "ethnic policies" of the Ming and
> > even give some hints on how non-Hans were actually treated, all
> > Ming official propaganda of which Mr. Fang has fallen such an easy
> > victim notwithstanding.
> >
> > Let me remind Mr. Fang, however regrettably it may be, that even
> > the "official history", or more appropriately historiography, is
> > not limited to these few sources he may have taken a cursory look
> > (or "detailed study" in his own opinion) at, though even the latter
> > could still provide some real hints behind the official lines as we
> > shall see.
> >
> > Now let us read some lines from the criminal code of the Ming,
> > first promulgated during the Hong-Wu years. Let us pay special
> > attention to two items namely endogamy and levirate, though our
> > learned Ming expert Mr. Fang is unlikely to have seen either term
> > heretofore. Actually these issues should be found in imperial
> > edicts by a reasonably meticulous reader of history, of which Mr.
> > Fang would seem not.
> >
> > It was clearly stated in Ming Lyu Ji Jie, in all its various
> > editions, Chinese as well as Korean, that the Ming code prohibited
> > marriages between a Mongol and a Mongol, a SeMu person and a SeMu
> > person.  In fact, some scholars even interpret it as a strict ban
> > extending to marriages between a Mongol and a SeMu.  Whatever the
> > exact scope, the effect is clear:  non-Han folks were forbidden to
> > have endogamy.  You can call it effective genocide through
> > extinction, if you like.
> >
> > Well, this item might be regarded more or less as "tit for tat"
> > for some alleged but yet to be attested old Yuan restrictions on
> > Han marriages involving non-Hans.  In other words, a perfect
> > example of what I have called "Class Revenge".   But the other
> > offense, namely levirate, would appear much less benign than
> > endogamy.  Indeed. it was literally deadly.  It was a capital
> > offense.  It could in all consideration be described as downright
> > political and cultural persecution of SOME ethnic minorities who
> > were almost required by their custom to commit it.
> >
> > Now, with the possible exception of Mr. Fang who so naively
> > believes in all he has read in the "official history", would it
> > come as a surprise to anyone that quite a few non-Hans at the time
> > might have considered these laws, plus whatever real and creative
> > "enforcement" measures a regime noted for its "secret police" might
> > have come up with, the "fox" test probably included, threatening
> > enough to decide to flee to some marginal areas where the Ming's
> > control was a little less severe?
> >
> > Another related (and indeed very complex) issue is religion.  Not
> > to prolong an already long response, let me discuss this only
> > briefly, with Christianity as an example.  It is no secret that
> > Christianity also flourished under the Yuan with quite some
> > communities of followers establised in China, mostly Nestorians but
> > also some newly arrived Franciscans. In fact, the regular contact
> > between Chinese Christians and the Holy See in Europe is a matter
> > of permanent Vatican record.  But these communities soon fell into
> > oblivion after the founding of the Ming.  Noting that numerous
> > references in non-Chinese languages may not be welcome to Mr. Fang,
> > let me just remind him that, if he has ever read the "official
> > history" carefully enough, alleged involvement by "foreign monks"
> > in early Ming's true or imagined cases of the "Fifth Columns of the
> > Northern Yuan" was to be found in Ming documents, though
> > the monks here might be of a different religion order or
> > denomination.  As we are all witnesses to the treatment the
> > followers of the same faith had experienced under the CCP and
> > mostly imagined "foreign threat",  it escapes me how our learned
> > Ming expert could have such confidence in an authoritarian regime's
> > "enlightened"  policy under a much more real and serious foreign
> > threat.
> >
> > A revealing incident suggestive of what non-Hans in China might
> > have been subjected to during those years, as well as indicative of
> > the pending fate of the Christianity in early Ming China, is the
> > documented "martyrdom" of James of Florence, a Franciscan bishop.
> > He was allegedly murdered in Hangzhou in 1362, supposedly already
> > under the control of Zhu Yuan-zhang.  Unfortunately it would be in
> > vain for Mr. Fang to find this case in his "official history", or
> > in any Chinese source, for that matter.
> >
> > Indeed another advice I can offer is for Mr. Fang: if he has not
> > already done so, to please see the masterpiece film "Rushomon"
> > directed by the Japanese director Kurosawa Akira.  Mr. Fang may
> > just learn something from the movie about the study of history as
> > well.  In short, history is not a patent owned by the Han Chinese.
> > Peking was a truly international metropolis before the Ming forces
> > took it and destroyed the palaces Kubilai built.  The events of the
> > last days of the Yuan regime were not only observed by the
> > victorious Ming forces.  There were many other witnesses.
> >
> > The following is an example of how a non-Han would describe some of
> > the events at the time.  Its  truthfulness, just as that of the
> > Chinese records, is open to discussion and study, just like the
> > story described in "Rushomon":
> >
> > Der Flucht des Hofes folgte ein furchtbares Blutbad, eine Orgie von
> > Massakern, eine Zerstoerungswut. die nichts verschonte, was
> > irgendwie im Zusammenhang mit den Mongolen stand. Waehrend dreier
> > Monate war das Land der Soldateska und den Henkern ausgeliefert.
> > Die Mongolen wurden auf den Strassen, in den Kloestern in
> > Gegaengnissen, in Suempfen getoetet, von Tuermen hinabgestuerzt und
> > auf alle moeglichen Arten umgebracht.  Nichts sollte von den
> > Einrichtungen der verhassten Herrscher bleiben; Kubilais Schloesser
> > wurden dem Erdboden gleichgemacht und selbst die Mauern  von Peking
> > zerstoert. Nach dem Gemetzel war dor Provinz Tschi-li so
> > verwuestet, dass man aus Schan-si Kolonisten herbeiholen musste,
> > damit die Doerfer sich wieder bevoekern und die Acker bestellt
> > werden konnten. ....
> >
> > Und mit den Mongolen verschwanden auch ihre Schuetzlinge, die
> > Fremden.  Die christlichen Niederlassungen, die mohammedanischen
> > Kolonien wurden hinweggefegt, die Bistuemer zerstoert, die Priester
> > ermordet; selbst von den Friedhoefen blieb kein Stein ganz.
> >
> > Mr. Fang may object to my not providing detailed references in this
> > response.  Well, part of the reason is that the only reference I
> > was able to squeeze into the original "Fox Commentary" was utterly
> > ignored when Mr. Fang later came up with his shocking statement on
> > "Han historically having hardly ever oppressed ethnic minorities
> > (within China proper)."  So why bother when the other side, so
> > eager to show off his "knowledge", is not interested at all in
> > listening to what others have to say?  Besides, any self-respecting
> > person who has truly "studied the Ming history for years", if we
> > can believe Mr. Fang's own words, should have no difficulty
> > locating the rather well-known sources this response may have used.
> >
> > At any rate, on the late Prof. Chen's reputation of "not putting
> > down a single unsubstantiated word", as touted by Mr. Fang, it can
> > be said that we have also humbly tried our best to approach his
> > high standard.  For instance the brief mention of the original
> > Mongol population figure in our commentary was based on several
> > sources, a major one being the work of the noted Russian/Soviet
> > Mongologist N. Ts. Munkuev who, incidentally, has also talked about
> > some "otrazhenye togo katastroficheskogo cokrashchenya chislennosti
> > mongolov v rezul'tate voennyikh porazhenij v Kitae..."  Mr. Fang is
> > certainly welcome to study the implications of these suggestive
> > words, particularly the word "katastroficheskogo", meaning
> > "catastrophic" in English in case Mr. Fang needs some help here.
> >
> > By now it may become clear why we have chosen this private channel
> > to reply to Mr. Fang.  A bit sarcastic as it may read, albeit a
> > natural reaction to what Mr. Fang has uttered on a public forum, it
> > is never our intention to humiliate any less informed soul in
> > public, though Mr. Fang seems to enjoy just that.  It has been
> > brought to my attention that Mr. Fang has also been receiving some
> > recognition as an "expert" (or at the very least as a very
> > "knowledgeable" person ) on a certain public forum on USENET.  Mr.
> > Fang can rest assured that I have no interest in spoiling his fun
> > or "fame", provided that he from now on would just restrain himself
> > from imposing his impressive "knowledge" on my, no doubt, unworthy
> > and undeserving history notes.
> >
> > Yours Humbly,
> >
> >   --Du Ren
> >
> >
>
>
>


From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Tue Dec  7 09:38:06 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History  ~{CwJ7#:J7SPCwND#?;X6<HKOHIz~}
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1993  21:04 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 458
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931202210412.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

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~{
> > It was clearly stated in Ming Lyu Ji Jie, in all its various
> > editions, Chinese as well as Korean, that the Ming code prohibited
> > marriages between a Mongol and a Mongol, a SeMu person and a SeMu
> > person.  In fact, some scholars even interpret it as a strict ban
> > extending to marriages between a Mongol and a SeMu.  Whatever the
> > exact scope, the effect is clear:  non-Han folks were forbidden to
> > have endogamy.  You can call it effective genocide through
> > extinction, if you like.
~{
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~{
> > example of what I have called "Class Revenge".   But the other
> > offense, namely levirate, would appear much less benign than
> > endogamy.  Indeed. it was literally deadly.  It was a capital
> > offense.  It could in all consideration be described as downright
> > political and cultural persecution of SOME ethnic minorities who
> > were almost required by their custom to commit it.
~{
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~{
> > A revealing incident suggestive of what non-Hans in China might
> > have been subjected to during those years, as well as indicative of
> > the pending fate of the Christianity in early Ming China, is the
> > documented "martyrdom" of James of Florence, a Franciscan bishop.
> > He was allegedly murdered in Hangzhou in 1362, supposedly already
> > under the control of Zhu Yuan-zhang.  Unfortunately it would be in
> > vain for Mr. Fang to find this case in his "official history", or
> > in any Chinese source, for that matter.
~{
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~{
> ~{!<T*3/!=9,M"3vLSV.aa1cJGR;3!?IEB5DQ*O4!"7EW]5DM@I1#,R;Us;YCp?q!#~}
> ~{6THN:NSkCI9ESP9XO55DHK6<>xN^?mK!!#H}8vTB@o#,2P1)5DJ?1xSk9tWSJVm'~}
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> ~{2;D\7E9}#::v1XAR5D9,5n1;RDN*F=5X#,A,11>)5D3GG=R21;;Y5tAK!#4sM@I1~}
> ~{V.aa#,V1A%J!R;F,;DN_#,2;5C2;4SI=NwJ!UPD<RFCq#,RTJ94eW/VX<{HKQL!"~}
> ~{E)LoTY5C8{VV!-!-~}
>
> ~{SkCI9EHKM,J1O{J'5DJGTxJ\Fd1#;$5DMb9zHK!#PE7n;y6==L;rRAK9@<=L5D6(~}
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> ~{U{5D!#~}
>
~{
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~{Dj2EL}5=R;Tr4+K5#,>]4K30P&3BOHIz9BB*9QNE#,TZJ1<dIOR22;:OB_<-!#5ZH}#,
~{HCDcH%W%:zHK#,DcJG8y>]!08_1GInD?6`Pk!1W%DX#,;9JG8y>]R8FxW%#?2;:O3#J6#!
    ~{AYD)#,NRR*K5#:6<HKOHIz5DUbF*4p84#,2;JGNRFZ4}RQ>C5D4p84#,6T6<HKOHIz
~{5DUbVVL,6H#,NR8P5=RE:6!#M,J1NRO#M{#<;*OD#>D\7"1mNR5DDGF*NDUB!#
~{
~{!!!!!!7=V[WS!#
~{
~{RTOBJG6<HKOHIz5D2)Q':hND#,5+T88wN;SPNR5DDMPD#,P@IMR;OB!#
> Forwarded message:
> > From root Mon Nov 29 22:05:28 1993
> > From: Wei Lin ~{AVgb~} <wlin@CND.ORG>
> > Message-Id: <9311300305.AA23641@cnd.org>
> > Subject: Re: your comments on a recent HXWZ article
> > To: fangshim@student.msu.edu
> > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:05:28 -0800 (PST)
> > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > Content-Length: 15201
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> >     Your comment relayed to cnd-cm via Tu Ya was forwarded to the
> > author of the article, from whom I just received the following reply.
> > The reply is a private one (not sent to cnd-cm) addressed to me.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Lin Wei, aka Tang Hong, Editor of HXWZ #137
> > ------------------------
> > To: wlin@CND.ORG
> > Subject: FWD from Du Ren
> >
> > Dear Lin Wei,
> >
> > It is unfortunate that I am still in the middle of (the aftermath of)
> > a bad political firestorm and would have to work very hard in the next
> > few weeks, but I do feel honored to take on the "Central Asia project".
> > Delivery by January should be assured (though anything earlier does
> > seem a bit problematic in terms of schedule).
> >
> > The following is my response to Mr. Fang Shimin's comments on my
> > "Fox Commentary", as informed by you and forwarded to me by
> > friends.  It is appreciated that my response would be forwarded to
> > Mr. Fang.  The reasons to choose this private channel will become
> > clear later.
> >
> > Frankly, it is rather entertaining to read such "well-substantiated
> > criticism" with all its self-confidence, self-righteousness and
> > unmistaken sarcasm, while in fact the "questions" raised had all
> > been thought through by the original author.  But one thing still
> > puzzling is that  Mr. Fang, in his obvious indignation at what he
> > later characterizes as WuJiZhiTan, seems to have ignored basic
> > logic in his arguments.
> >
> > To be more specific, let me point out that Mr. Fang does not seem
> > to realize my mild and modest criticism of the late Prof. Chen Yin-
> > ke, whom I admire no less than Mr. Fang seems to, but with a more
> > balanced view on the not-so-few "inaccuracies" in Chen's work that
> > Mr. Fang appears unaware of, will stand whether or not the Su-Bei
> > story proves historically accurate.  It will hold true because
> > Chen's claim that no one on earth had ever brought up this
> > "ancient-foreigners-tended-to-have-this-'fox'-problem" is simply
> > not correct, as it had been folklore in parts of China for many
> > generations.
> >
> > In addition to all his academic achievements, Prof. Chen Yin-ke was
> > known to be a decent and humble man.  Therefore it is hard to
> > imagine he would have concurred with Mr. Fang's implied notion that
> > those generations of common folks together with whatever opinion
> > they may have held or expressed were, as far as our learned Mr.
> > Fang is concerned, practically worthless or at any rate not
> > something that could be considered having ever mattered at all in
> > this world.
> >
> > One point that I could not entertain because of the space
> > constraint imposed on the original commentary is:  though very
> > interesting, the folklore stories were only part of many people's
> > unprompted self-claim, the maternal line of my informant being one,
> > that they were descendants of some of these non-Hans who had fled
> > to Su-Bei to escape alleged Ming-instigated  persecutions,
> > political as well as cultural.   In view of such widespread belief
> > and assertions of these events, it is of course quite unfortunate
> > that our knowledgeable Ming "expert" fails to find any in the
> > "official history".  Again, unlike Mr. Fang, I would usually feel
> > at least some minimal respect for people's self-claimed ancestry,
> > just as I would not casually call whatever Mr. Fang's reported
> > ancestry "WuJiZhiTan", though I really could not care less about
> > the latter.
> >
> > Mr. Fang's other learned comments also make one wonder.  Besides
> > the Ming period on which he claims to have studied "for years" (but
> > obviously has not gone into anything that is more than just skin-
> > deep as we shall demonstrate later), how much does he know about
> > Chinese history?   His later claim that ancient Han regimes hardly
> > ever oppressed minorities "to the south of the Great Wall" is
> > particularly pregnant with untold consequences.  For, if ever made
> > known to some "serious" circle, this claim may well become the
> > laughing stock of the century, although a more likely scenario is
> > no one except Yours Humbly here would ever give it more than a
> > yawn.
> >
> > In addition to the Ran3 Min3 story in the original commentary on
> > which I had provided the reference but which was utterly ignored by
> > Mr. Fang, may I respectfully urge Mr. Fang to read the record of
> > Liu Yu, the founding emperor of the (Liu) Song dynasty, concerning
> > his destruction of the Murong Kingdom of the Southern Yan?  Liu's
> > blood-thirsty actions in "Class Revenge", a notion Mr. Fang has
> > questioned repeatedly, was even criticized by a fellow elite Han,
> > the famous (Zhao) Song historian Sima Guang, as much worse than
> > what some prominent non-Han "Barbarian" political leaders did in
> > the Chinese realm.  The whole point is China, like any other major
> > civilizations in the world, has had quite a few dark pages on
> > ethnic conflicts initiated by non-Hans as well as by the Hans.  It
> > may be both wise and advisable not to delve too much in these
> > ancient historical wounds, but Mr. Fang's denial of the existence
> > of such ugly incidents is obviously ostrich-like.
> >
> > Now we can finally come to this specific topic of the Yuan-Ming
> > transition.  Again, frankly Mr. Fang's supremely confident
> > challenges would make me advise him SINCERELY that the most risky
> > thing for a "learned student" to do is to base his own arguments on
> > such shallow readings of history, and, worse still, to believe
> > others must have done the same.
> >
> > First, Mr. Fang's quoting and then dismissal of some "litmus test"
> > type folklore stories reflect a profound ignorance of the
> > fundamental difference in terms of "ethnic" (and political,
> > religious as well as cultural) backgrounds between the Yuan-Ming
> > transition and the Republican revolution.  In fact, studies of this
> > topic, albeit not necessarily in languages Mr. Fang is particularly
> > proficient in, are not hard to find.  This shibboleth test is
> > nothing new either, as it has existed in various versions but with
> > surprising similarity in different parts of China and can usually
> > be traced back to the Yuan-Ming period. Its historical significance
> > will demonstrate itself later, if not in the Ran Min story I have
> > mentioned.   But in reply to Mr. Fang's indignant dismissal of them
> > as groundless and as devoid of any tangible historical truth, let
> > me cite the verifiable stories of the Battle of the Bulges in WWII,
> > and even some recent stories about the Sino-Vietnamese border war
> > in the late 1970s.  If Mr. Fang is not interested in contemporary
> > politics but is by chance more spiritually inclined, let me refer
> > him to Bible-based etymology of the word shibboleth itself.
> >
> > But "none of them are documented in the official history", as Mr.
> > Fang would complain, and as is clearly the case with some modern
> > official  "history" in which numerous folklore stories with "bad"
> > political or social contents or implications would also be found
> > missing.  Okay, let us turn to one "official history" and see what
> > it may tell us about the true "ethnic policies" of the Ming and
> > even give some hints on how non-Hans were actually treated, all
> > Ming official propaganda of which Mr. Fang has fallen such an easy
> > victim notwithstanding.
> >
> > Let me remind Mr. Fang, however regrettably it may be, that even
> > the "official history", or more appropriately historiography, is
> > not limited to these few sources he may have taken a cursory look
> > (or "detailed study" in his own opinion) at, though even the latter
> > could still provide some real hints behind the official lines as we
> > shall see.
> >
> > Now let us read some lines from the criminal code of the Ming,
> > first promulgated during the Hong-Wu years. Let us pay special
> > attention to two items namely endogamy and levirate, though our
> > learned Ming expert Mr. Fang is unlikely to have seen either term
> > heretofore. Actually these issues should be found in imperial
> > edicts by a reasonably meticulous reader of history, of which Mr.
> > Fang would seem not.
> >
> > It was clearly stated in Ming Lyu Ji Jie, in all its various
> > editions, Chinese as well as Korean, that the Ming code prohibited
> > marriages between a Mongol and a Mongol, a SeMu person and a SeMu
> > person.  In fact, some scholars even interpret it as a strict ban
> > extending to marriages between a Mongol and a SeMu.  Whatever the
> > exact scope, the effect is clear:  non-Han folks were forbidden to
> > have endogamy.  You can call it effective genocide through
> > extinction, if you like.
> >
> > Well, this item might be regarded more or less as "tit for tat"
> > for some alleged but yet to be attested old Yuan restrictions on
> > Han marriages involving non-Hans.  In other words, a perfect
> > example of what I have called "Class Revenge".   But the other
> > offense, namely levirate, would appear much less benign than
> > endogamy.  Indeed. it was literally deadly.  It was a capital
> > offense.  It could in all consideration be described as downright
> > political and cultural persecution of SOME ethnic minorities who
> > were almost required by their custom to commit it.
> >
> > Now, with the possible exception of Mr. Fang who so naively
> > believes in all he has read in the "official history", would it
> > come as a surprise to anyone that quite a few non-Hans at the time
> > might have considered these laws, plus whatever real and creative
> > "enforcement" measures a regime noted for its "secret police" might
> > have come up with, the "fox" test probably included, threatening
> > enough to decide to flee to some marginal areas where the Ming's
> > control was a little less severe?
> >
> > Another related (and indeed very complex) issue is religion.  Not
> > to prolong an already long response, let me discuss this only
> > briefly, with Christianity as an example.  It is no secret that
> > Christianity also flourished under the Yuan with quite some
> > communities of followers establised in China, mostly Nestorians but
> > also some newly arrived Franciscans. In fact, the regular contact
> > between Chinese Christians and the Holy See in Europe is a matter
> > of permanent Vatican record.  But these communities soon fell into
> > oblivion after the founding of the Ming.  Noting that numerous
> > references in non-Chinese languages may not be welcome to Mr. Fang,
> > let me just remind him that, if he has ever read the "official
> > history" carefully enough, alleged involvement by "foreign monks"
> > in early Ming's true or imagined cases of the "Fifth Columns of the
> > Northern Yuan" was to be found in Ming documents, though
> > the monks here might be of a different religion order or
> > denomination.  As we are all witnesses to the treatment the
> > followers of the same faith had experienced under the CCP and
> > mostly imagined "foreign threat",  it escapes me how our learned
> > Ming expert could have such confidence in an authoritarian regime's
> > "enlightened"  policy under a much more real and serious foreign
> > threat.
> >
> > A revealing incident suggestive of what non-Hans in China might
> > have been subjected to during those years, as well as indicative of
> > the pending fate of the Christianity in early Ming China, is the
> > documented "martyrdom" of James of Florence, a Franciscan bishop.
> > He was allegedly murdered in Hangzhou in 1362, supposedly already
> > under the control of Zhu Yuan-zhang.  Unfortunately it would be in
> > vain for Mr. Fang to find this case in his "official history", or
> > in any Chinese source, for that matter.
> >
> > Indeed another advice I can offer is for Mr. Fang: if he has not
> > already done so, to please see the masterpiece film "Rushomon"
> > directed by the Japanese director Kurosawa Akira.  Mr. Fang may
> > just learn something from the movie about the study of history as
> > well.  In short, history is not a patent owned by the Han Chinese.
> > Peking was a truly international metropolis before the Ming forces
> > took it and destroyed the palaces Kubilai built.  The events of the
> > last days of the Yuan regime were not only observed by the
> > victorious Ming forces.  There were many other witnesses.
> >
> > The following is an example of how a non-Han would describe some of
> > the events at the time.  Its  truthfulness, just as that of the
> > Chinese records, is open to discussion and study, just like the
> > story described in "Rushomon":
> >
> > Der Flucht des Hofes folgte ein furchtbares Blutbad, eine Orgie von
> > Massakern, eine Zerstoerungswut. die nichts verschonte, was
> > irgendwie im Zusammenhang mit den Mongolen stand. Waehrend dreier
> > Monate war das Land der Soldateska und den Henkern ausgeliefert.
> > Die Mongolen wurden auf den Strassen, in den Kloestern in
> > Gegaengnissen, in Suempfen getoetet, von Tuermen hinabgestuerzt und
> > auf alle moeglichen Arten umgebracht.  Nichts sollte von den
> > Einrichtungen der verhassten Herrscher bleiben; Kubilais Schloesser
> > wurden dem Erdboden gleichgemacht und selbst die Mauern  von Peking
> > zerstoert. Nach dem Gemetzel war dor Provinz Tschi-li so
> > verwuestet, dass man aus Schan-si Kolonisten herbeiholen musste,
> > damit die Doerfer sich wieder bevoekern und die Acker bestellt
> > werden konnten. ....
> >
> > Und mit den Mongolen verschwanden auch ihre Schuetzlinge, die
> > Fremden.  Die christlichen Niederlassungen, die mohammedanischen
> > Kolonien wurden hinweggefegt, die Bistuemer zerstoert, die Priester
> > ermordet; selbst von den Friedhoefen blieb kein Stein ganz.
> >
> > Mr. Fang may object to my not providing detailed references in this
> > response.  Well, part of the reason is that the only reference I
> > was able to squeeze into the original "Fox Commentary" was utterly
> > ignored when Mr. Fang later came up with his shocking statement on
> > "Han historically having hardly ever oppressed ethnic minorities
> > (within China proper)."  So why bother when the other side, so
> > eager to show off his "knowledge", is not interested at all in
> > listening to what others have to say?  Besides, any self-respecting
> > person who has truly "studied the Ming history for years", if we
> > can believe Mr. Fang's own words, should have no difficulty
> > locating the rather well-known sources this response may have used.
> >
> > At any rate, on the late Prof. Chen's reputation of "not putting
> > down a single unsubstantiated word", as touted by Mr. Fang, it can
> > be said that we have also humbly tried our best to approach his
> > high standard.  For instance the brief mention of the original
> > Mongol population figure in our commentary was based on several
> > sources, a major one being the work of the noted Russian/Soviet
> > Mongologist N. Ts. Munkuev who, incidentally, has also talked about
> > some "otrazhenye togo katastroficheskogo cokrashchenya chislennosti
> > mongolov v rezul'tate voennyikh porazhenij v Kitae..."  Mr. Fang is
> > certainly welcome to study the implications of these suggestive
> > words, particularly the word "katastroficheskogo", meaning
> > "catastrophic" in English in case Mr. Fang needs some help here.
> >
> > By now it may become clear why we have chosen this private channel
> > to reply to Mr. Fang.  A bit sarcastic as it may read, albeit a
> > natural reaction to what Mr. Fang has uttered on a public forum, it
> > is never our intention to humiliate any less informed soul in
> > public, though Mr. Fang seems to enjoy just that.  It has been
> > brought to my attention that Mr. Fang has also been receiving some
> > recognition as an "expert" (or at the very least as a very
> > "knowledgeable" person ) on a certain public forum on USENET.  Mr.
> > Fang can rest assured that I have no interest in spoiling his fun
> > or "fame", provided that he from now on would just restrain himself
> > from imposing his impressive "knowledge" on my, no doubt, unworthy
> > and undeserving history notes.
> >
> > Yours Humbly,
> >
> >   --Du Ren
> >
> >
>
>
>

From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!hli Tue Dec  7 09:41:47 1993
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!hli
From: hli@nyx.cs.du.edu (Hongkuan Li)
Subject: Re: Ming History  ~{CwJ7#:J7SPCwND#?;X6<HKOHIz~}
Message-ID: <1993Dec3.061447.2951@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
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References: <19931202210412.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 06:14:47 GMT
Lines: 472

~{DMWEPTWS6AMjUbF*3$ND#,SHFdJG!06<HK!15DK=:/#,8POkFD6`#:~}

	~{R;#,V[WS:CQy5D#,8xDc9DUF#!~}
	~{6~#,6<HKOHIzRuQt9VFx#,SVKaSV3t#,C;SPQ'U_7g6H#!~}
	~{H}#,O#M{V[WSK@6#!0Q'Ju1gB[#o#n#l#y!15DPELu#,Jw8v0qQy#!~}
	~{KD#,Hg9{V[WSR2D\Q'Nw7=J7Q'5D7=7(#,N*NRKySC#,3I>M6(TZ6<HKV.IO#!~}

	And, that is beautiful!
============================================unchanged below, don't read.

In article <19931202210412.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>,
Shimin Fang <fangshim@student.msu.edu> wrote:
>~{!!!!4s<R?ID\;9<G5C#,#<;*ODNDU*#>TZ0k8v6`TBG07"1mAK6<HKOHIz?<V$!0:z3t!1
>~{5DNDUB#,NR6AMjV.:sP4AKR;F*#<J7SPCwND#?B[Cw3u5DCqWeU~2_<fSk6<HKOHIzIL
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>~{:&#,J7SPCwND!#!1La3vRINJ#,O#M{5C5=6<HKOHIz5D4M=L!#9}AK<8Ll#,#<;*OD#>
>~{@4:/K56<HKOHIzJVIOH7J5SPCw3uM@I1:zHK5DWJAO#,=+TZR;V\V.DZ8xNR#,O#M{K=
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>~{R;V\#,:AN^RtPE#,NR8x#<;*OD#>H%:/Q/NJJGTuC4;XJB!#SV9}AKH}Ll#,AVgbW*@4
>~{AK6<HKOHIz5D4p84!#
>~{!!!!6<HKOHIzOTH;R2JG6AVPNDMx5D#,6TNRTZ4K5D1mOVR;Ge6~3~!#K{K5K{V.KyRT
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>~{NRR22;Ok7425!#
>~{!!!!H;:s#,6<HKOHIzW\Kc8x3vAKCw3u6T:zHK=xPP=W<61(845DH}8vV$>]#,HCNRCG
>~{@4?4?4UbJGJ2C4Qy5DV$>]#:
>~{!!!!JWOH#,6<HKOHIzK5#:
>~{
>> > It was clearly stated in Ming Lyu Ji Jie, in all its various
>> > editions, Chinese as well as Korean, that the Ming code prohibited
>> > marriages between a Mongol and a Mongol, a SeMu person and a SeMu
>> > person.  In fact, some scholars even interpret it as a strict ban
>> > extending to marriages between a Mongol and a SeMu.  Whatever the
>> > exact scope, the effect is clear:  non-Han folks were forbidden to
>> > have endogamy.  You can call it effective genocide through
>> > extinction, if you like.
>~{
>~{!!!!#<4sCwBI#>>m#6CI9EI+D?HK;iRvLu9f6(#:!0CI9E!"I+D?HKOV>SVP9z#,PmSk
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>~{
>> > example of what I have called "Class Revenge".   But the other
>> > offense, namely levirate, would appear much less benign than
>> > endogamy.  Indeed. it was literally deadly.  It was a capital
>> > offense.  It could in all consideration be described as downright
>> > political and cultural persecution of SOME ethnic minorities who
>> > were almost required by their custom to commit it.
>~{
>~{!!!!~}levirate~{JGPV3$K@AK#,5\5\H"AKI)WS5DRbK<!#5DH7#,TZR;P)SNDACqWe
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>~{
>~{!!!!Wn:s#,6<HKOHIzSV>Y@}K5#:
>~{
>> > A revealing incident suggestive of what non-Hans in China might
>> > have been subjected to during those years, as well as indicative of
>> > the pending fate of the Christianity in early Ming China, is the
>> > documented "martyrdom" of James of Florence, a Franciscan bishop.
>> > He was allegedly murdered in Hangzhou in 1362, supposedly already
>> > under the control of Zhu Yuan-zhang.  Unfortunately it would be in
>> > vain for Mr. Fang to find this case in his "official history", or
>> > in any Chinese source, for that matter.
>~{
>~{!!!!6<HKOHIzK55C2;4m#,NR8y1>2;;aH%2i#<CwJ7#>;rFdK{J7JiH%URUbLu<GTX!#
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>~{
>> ~{!<T*3/!=9,M"3vLSV.aa1cJGR;3!?IEB5DQ*O4!"7EW]5DM@I1#,R;Us;YCp?q!#~}
>> ~{6THN:NSkCI9ESP9XO55DHK6<>xN^?mK!!#H}8vTB@o#,2P1)5DJ?1xSk9tWSJVm'~}
>> ~{Rb:aPP!#CI9EHK1;I1K@TZ=V5@IO!"KBT:@o!"<`S|DZ!"USTsVP#,1;4S3GB%EW~}
>> ~{OB#,1;SCR;GP?ID\5D7=J=I1K@!#?ITw5D!<CI9E!=M3VNU_=(A"5D6+NwR;5cR2~}
>> ~{2;D\7E9}#::v1XAR5D9,5n1;RDN*F=5X#,A,11>)5D3GG=R21;;Y5tAK!#4sM@I1~}
>> ~{V.aa#,V1A%J!R;F,;DN_#,2;5C2;4SI=NwJ!UPD<RFCq#,RTJ94eW/VX<{HKQL!"~}
>> ~{E)LoTY5C8{VV!-!-~}
>>
>> ~{SkCI9EHKM,J1O{J'5DJGTxJ\Fd1#;$5DMb9zHK!#PE7n;y6==L;rRAK9@<=L5D6(~}
>> ~{>S5c1;I(3}#,=LLC1;2p;Y#,=LJ?1;I1:&#,A,D95X@o5DD91.6<C;AtOBR;?iMj~}
>> ~{U{5D!#~}
>>
>~{
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>~{
>~{!!!!!!7=V[WS!#
>~{
>~{RTOBJG6<HKOHIz5D2)Q':hND#,5+T88wN;SPNR5DDMPD#,P@IMR;OB!#
>> Forwarded message:
>> > From root Mon Nov 29 22:05:28 1993
>> > From: Wei Lin ~{AVgb~} <wlin@CND.ORG>
>> > Message-Id: <9311300305.AA23641@cnd.org>
>> > Subject: Re: your comments on a recent HXWZ article
>> > To: fangshim@student.msu.edu
>> > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:05:28 -0800 (PST)
>> > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
>> > Mime-Version: 1.0
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> > Content-Length: 15201
>> >
>> > Hi there,
>> >
>> >     Your comment relayed to cnd-cm via Tu Ya was forwarded to the
>> > author of the article, from whom I just received the following reply.
>> > The reply is a private one (not sent to cnd-cm) addressed to me.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> >
>> > Lin Wei, aka Tang Hong, Editor of HXWZ #137
>> > ------------------------
>> > To: wlin@CND.ORG
>> > Subject: FWD from Du Ren
>> >
>> > Dear Lin Wei,
>> >
>> > It is unfortunate that I am still in the middle of (the aftermath of)
>> > a bad political firestorm and would have to work very hard in the next
>> > few weeks, but I do feel honored to take on the "Central Asia project".
>> > Delivery by January should be assured (though anything earlier does
>> > seem a bit problematic in terms of schedule).
>> >
>> > The following is my response to Mr. Fang Shimin's comments on my
>> > "Fox Commentary", as informed by you and forwarded to me by
>> > friends.  It is appreciated that my response would be forwarded to
>> > Mr. Fang.  The reasons to choose this private channel will become
>> > clear later.
>> >
>> > Frankly, it is rather entertaining to read such "well-substantiated
>> > criticism" with all its self-confidence, self-righteousness and
>> > unmistaken sarcasm, while in fact the "questions" raised had all
>> > been thought through by the original author.  But one thing still
>> > puzzling is that  Mr. Fang, in his obvious indignation at what he
>> > later characterizes as WuJiZhiTan, seems to have ignored basic
>> > logic in his arguments.
>> >
>> > To be more specific, let me point out that Mr. Fang does not seem
>> > to realize my mild and modest criticism of the late Prof. Chen Yin-
>> > ke, whom I admire no less than Mr. Fang seems to, but with a more
>> > balanced view on the not-so-few "inaccuracies" in Chen's work that
>> > Mr. Fang appears unaware of, will stand whether or not the Su-Bei
>> > story proves historically accurate.  It will hold true because
>> > Chen's claim that no one on earth had ever brought up this
>> > "ancient-foreigners-tended-to-have-this-'fox'-problem" is simply
>> > not correct, as it had been folklore in parts of China for many
>> > generations.
>> >
>> > In addition to all his academic achievements, Prof. Chen Yin-ke was
>> > known to be a decent and humble man.  Therefore it is hard to
>> > imagine he would have concurred with Mr. Fang's implied notion that
>> > those generations of common folks together with whatever opinion
>> > they may have held or expressed were, as far as our learned Mr.
>> > Fang is concerned, practically worthless or at any rate not
>> > something that could be considered having ever mattered at all in
>> > this world.
>> >
>> > One point that I could not entertain because of the space
>> > constraint imposed on the original commentary is:  though very
>> > interesting, the folklore stories were only part of many people's
>> > unprompted self-claim, the maternal line of my informant being one,
>> > that they were descendants of some of these non-Hans who had fled
>> > to Su-Bei to escape alleged Ming-instigated  persecutions,
>> > political as well as cultural.   In view of such widespread belief
>> > and assertions of these events, it is of course quite unfortunate
>> > that our knowledgeable Ming "expert" fails to find any in the
>> > "official history".  Again, unlike Mr. Fang, I would usually feel
>> > at least some minimal respect for people's self-claimed ancestry,
>> > just as I would not casually call whatever Mr. Fang's reported
>> > ancestry "WuJiZhiTan", though I really could not care less about
>> > the latter.
>> >
>> > Mr. Fang's other learned comments also make one wonder.  Besides
>> > the Ming period on which he claims to have studied "for years" (but
>> > obviously has not gone into anything that is more than just skin-
>> > deep as we shall demonstrate later), how much does he know about
>> > Chinese history?   His later claim that ancient Han regimes hardly
>> > ever oppressed minorities "to the south of the Great Wall" is
>> > particularly pregnant with untold consequences.  For, if ever made
>> > known to some "serious" circle, this claim may well become the
>> > laughing stock of the century, although a more likely scenario is
>> > no one except Yours Humbly here would ever give it more than a
>> > yawn.
>> >
>> > In addition to the Ran3 Min3 story in the original commentary on
>> > which I had provided the reference but which was utterly ignored by
>> > Mr. Fang, may I respectfully urge Mr. Fang to read the record of
>> > Liu Yu, the founding emperor of the (Liu) Song dynasty, concerning
>> > his destruction of the Murong Kingdom of the Southern Yan?  Liu's
>> > blood-thirsty actions in "Class Revenge", a notion Mr. Fang has
>> > questioned repeatedly, was even criticized by a fellow elite Han,
>> > the famous (Zhao) Song historian Sima Guang, as much worse than
>> > what some prominent non-Han "Barbarian" political leaders did in
>> > the Chinese realm.  The whole point is China, like any other major
>> > civilizations in the world, has had quite a few dark pages on
>> > ethnic conflicts initiated by non-Hans as well as by the Hans.  It
>> > may be both wise and advisable not to delve too much in these
>> > ancient historical wounds, but Mr. Fang's denial of the existence
>> > of such ugly incidents is obviously ostrich-like.
>> >
>> > Now we can finally come to this specific topic of the Yuan-Ming
>> > transition.  Again, frankly Mr. Fang's supremely confident
>> > challenges would make me advise him SINCERELY that the most risky
>> > thing for a "learned student" to do is to base his own arguments on
>> > such shallow readings of history, and, worse still, to believe
>> > others must have done the same.
>> >
>> > First, Mr. Fang's quoting and then dismissal of some "litmus test"
>> > type folklore stories reflect a profound ignorance of the
>> > fundamental difference in terms of "ethnic" (and political,
>> > religious as well as cultural) backgrounds between the Yuan-Ming
>> > transition and the Republican revolution.  In fact, studies of this
>> > topic, albeit not necessarily in languages Mr. Fang is particularly
>> > proficient in, are not hard to find.  This shibboleth test is
>> > nothing new either, as it has existed in various versions but with
>> > surprising similarity in different parts of China and can usually
>> > be traced back to the Yuan-Ming period. Its historical significance
>> > will demonstrate itself later, if not in the Ran Min story I have
>> > mentioned.   But in reply to Mr. Fang's indignant dismissal of them
>> > as groundless and as devoid of any tangible historical truth, let
>> > me cite the verifiable stories of the Battle of the Bulges in WWII,
>> > and even some recent stories about the Sino-Vietnamese border war
>> > in the late 1970s.  If Mr. Fang is not interested in contemporary
>> > politics but is by chance more spiritually inclined, let me refer
>> > him to Bible-based etymology of the word shibboleth itself.
>> >
>> > But "none of them are documented in the official history", as Mr.
>> > Fang would complain, and as is clearly the case with some modern
>> > official  "history" in which numerous folklore stories with "bad"
>> > political or social contents or implications would also be found
>> > missing.  Okay, let us turn to one "official history" and see what
>> > it may tell us about the true "ethnic policies" of the Ming and
>> > even give some hints on how non-Hans were actually treated, all
>> > Ming official propaganda of which Mr. Fang has fallen such an easy
>> > victim notwithstanding.
>> >
>> > Let me remind Mr. Fang, however regrettably it may be, that even
>> > the "official history", or more appropriately historiography, is
>> > not limited to these few sources he may have taken a cursory look
>> > (or "detailed study" in his own opinion) at, though even the latter
>> > could still provide some real hints behind the official lines as we
>> > shall see.
>> >
>> > Now let us read some lines from the criminal code of the Ming,
>> > first promulgated during the Hong-Wu years. Let us pay special
>> > attention to two items namely endogamy and levirate, though our
>> > learned Ming expert Mr. Fang is unlikely to have seen either term
>> > heretofore. Actually these issues should be found in imperial
>> > edicts by a reasonably meticulous reader of history, of which Mr.
>> > Fang would seem not.
>> >
>> > It was clearly stated in Ming Lyu Ji Jie, in all its various
>> > editions, Chinese as well as Korean, that the Ming code prohibited
>> > marriages between a Mongol and a Mongol, a SeMu person and a SeMu
>> > person.  In fact, some scholars even interpret it as a strict ban
>> > extending to marriages between a Mongol and a SeMu.  Whatever the
>> > exact scope, the effect is clear:  non-Han folks were forbidden to
>> > have endogamy.  You can call it effective genocide through
>> > extinction, if you like.
>> >
>> > Well, this item might be regarded more or less as "tit for tat"
>> > for some alleged but yet to be attested old Yuan restrictions on
>> > Han marriages involving non-Hans.  In other words, a perfect
>> > example of what I have called "Class Revenge".   But the other
>> > offense, namely levirate, would appear much less benign than
>> > endogamy.  Indeed. it was literally deadly.  It was a capital
>> > offense.  It could in all consideration be described as downright
>> > political and cultural persecution of SOME ethnic minorities who
>> > were almost required by their custom to commit it.
>> >
>> > Now, with the possible exception of Mr. Fang who so naively
>> > believes in all he has read in the "official history", would it
>> > come as a surprise to anyone that quite a few non-Hans at the time
>> > might have considered these laws, plus whatever real and creative
>> > "enforcement" measures a regime noted for its "secret police" might
>> > have come up with, the "fox" test probably included, threatening
>> > enough to decide to flee to some marginal areas where the Ming's
>> > control was a little less severe?
>> >
>> > Another related (and indeed very complex) issue is religion.  Not
>> > to prolong an already long response, let me discuss this only
>> > briefly, with Christianity as an example.  It is no secret that
>> > Christianity also flourished under the Yuan with quite some
>> > communities of followers establised in China, mostly Nestorians but
>> > also some newly arrived Franciscans. In fact, the regular contact
>> > between Chinese Christians and the Holy See in Europe is a matter
>> > of permanent Vatican record.  But these communities soon fell into
>> > oblivion after the founding of the Ming.  Noting that numerous
>> > references in non-Chinese languages may not be welcome to Mr. Fang,
>> > let me just remind him that, if he has ever read the "official
>> > history" carefully enough, alleged involvement by "foreign monks"
>> > in early Ming's true or imagined cases of the "Fifth Columns of the
>> > Northern Yuan" was to be found in Ming documents, though
>> > the monks here might be of a different religion order or
>> > denomination.  As we are all witnesses to the treatment the
>> > followers of the same faith had experienced under the CCP and
>> > mostly imagined "foreign threat",  it escapes me how our learned
>> > Ming expert could have such confidence in an authoritarian regime's
>> > "enlightened"  policy under a much more real and serious foreign
>> > threat.
>> >
>> > A revealing incident suggestive of what non-Hans in China might
>> > have been subjected to during those years, as well as indicative of
>> > the pending fate of the Christianity in early Ming China, is the
>> > documented "martyrdom" of James of Florence, a Franciscan bishop.
>> > He was allegedly murdered in Hangzhou in 1362, supposedly already
>> > under the control of Zhu Yuan-zhang.  Unfortunately it would be in
>> > vain for Mr. Fang to find this case in his "official history", or
>> > in any Chinese source, for that matter.
>> >
>> > Indeed another advice I can offer is for Mr. Fang: if he has not
>> > already done so, to please see the masterpiece film "Rushomon"
>> > directed by the Japanese director Kurosawa Akira.  Mr. Fang may
>> > just learn something from the movie about the study of history as
>> > well.  In short, history is not a patent owned by the Han Chinese.
>> > Peking was a truly international metropolis before the Ming forces
>> > took it and destroyed the palaces Kubilai built.  The events of the
>> > last days of the Yuan regime were not only observed by the
>> > victorious Ming forces.  There were many other witnesses.
>> >
>> > The following is an example of how a non-Han would describe some of
>> > the events at the time.  Its  truthfulness, just as that of the
>> > Chinese records, is open to discussion and study, just like the
>> > story described in "Rushomon":
>> >
>> > Der Flucht des Hofes folgte ein furchtbares Blutbad, eine Orgie von
>> > Massakern, eine Zerstoerungswut. die nichts verschonte, was
>> > irgendwie im Zusammenhang mit den Mongolen stand. Waehrend dreier
>> > Monate war das Land der Soldateska und den Henkern ausgeliefert.
>> > Die Mongolen wurden auf den Strassen, in den Kloestern in
>> > Gegaengnissen, in Suempfen getoetet, von Tuermen hinabgestuerzt und
>> > auf alle moeglichen Arten umgebracht.  Nichts sollte von den
>> > Einrichtungen der verhassten Herrscher bleiben; Kubilais Schloesser
>> > wurden dem Erdboden gleichgemacht und selbst die Mauern  von Peking
>> > zerstoert. Nach dem Gemetzel war dor Provinz Tschi-li so
>> > verwuestet, dass man aus Schan-si Kolonisten herbeiholen musste,
>> > damit die Doerfer sich wieder bevoekern und die Acker bestellt
>> > werden konnten. ....
>> >
>> > Und mit den Mongolen verschwanden auch ihre Schuetzlinge, die
>> > Fremden.  Die christlichen Niederlassungen, die mohammedanischen
>> > Kolonien wurden hinweggefegt, die Bistuemer zerstoert, die Priester
>> > ermordet; selbst von den Friedhoefen blieb kein Stein ganz.
>> >
>> > Mr. Fang may object to my not providing detailed references in this
>> > response.  Well, part of the reason is that the only reference I
>> > was able to squeeze into the original "Fox Commentary" was utterly
>> > ignored when Mr. Fang later came up with his shocking statement on
>> > "Han historically having hardly ever oppressed ethnic minorities
>> > (within China proper)."  So why bother when the other side, so
>> > eager to show off his "knowledge", is not interested at all in
>> > listening to what others have to say?  Besides, any self-respecting
>> > person who has truly "studied the Ming history for years", if we
>> > can believe Mr. Fang's own words, should have no difficulty
>> > locating the rather well-known sources this response may have used.
>> >
>> > At any rate, on the late Prof. Chen's reputation of "not putting
>> > down a single unsubstantiated word", as touted by Mr. Fang, it can
>> > be said that we have also humbly tried our best to approach his
>> > high standard.  For instance the brief mention of the original
>> > Mongol population figure in our commentary was based on several
>> > sources, a major one being the work of the noted Russian/Soviet
>> > Mongologist N. Ts. Munkuev who, incidentally, has also talked about
>> > some "otrazhenye togo katastroficheskogo cokrashchenya chislennosti
>> > mongolov v rezul'tate voennyikh porazhenij v Kitae..."  Mr. Fang is
>> > certainly welcome to study the implications of these suggestive
>> > words, particularly the word "katastroficheskogo", meaning
>> > "catastrophic" in English in case Mr. Fang needs some help here.
>> >
>> > By now it may become clear why we have chosen this private channel
>> > to reply to Mr. Fang.  A bit sarcastic as it may read, albeit a
>> > natural reaction to what Mr. Fang has uttered on a public forum, it
>> > is never our intention to humiliate any less informed soul in
>> > public, though Mr. Fang seems to enjoy just that.  It has been
>> > brought to my attention that Mr. Fang has also been receiving some
>> > recognition as an "expert" (or at the very least as a very
>> > "knowledgeable" person ) on a certain public forum on USENET.  Mr.
>> > Fang can rest assured that I have no interest in spoiling his fun
>> > or "fame", provided that he from now on would just restrain himself
>> > from imposing his impressive "knowledge" on my, no doubt, unworthy
>> > and undeserving history notes.
>> >
>> > Yours Humbly,
>> >
>> >   --Du Ren
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>



From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!usenet.ufl.edu!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Tue Dec  7 09:42:03 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!usenet.ufl.edu!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: Ming History  ~{CwJ7#:J7SPCwND#?;X6<HKOHIz~}
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1993  21:12 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931205211227.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
References: <2dtrhk$omq@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

In Article <2dtrhk$omq@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> "yjj@iapetus.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang)" says:
> 
> ~{7=V[WS:M6<HKTZ;*ODNDU*IO5DNDUB6<C;?49}~},~{4SUb@o5DU*R*~}
> ~{?4A=HK5DJBJ5B[>]JGR;VB5D~},~{V;JG2B2bVlT*UB5DSCRbSP1p~}.
~{
~{NRCGA=HK5DJBJ5R@>]2"2;R;VB#,6<HKOHIz2;V*;rSPRb:vBTAKDGLuJ5<JIOH!O{
~{AKUbR;Lu7(BI5D5+Ji#(#<4sCwBI</=b#>6T4K5D=bJMJG#:!0FdA"7(QO6xSCPDK!!#!1#)
~{#,RT<0UbLu7(BI2"N45C5=HOUfV4PP5DJBJ5!#SPAKUbA=5c#,>MV$CwAKUbLu7(BI
~{V;M#AtTZV=CfIO#,N41d3I@zJ7JBJ5#,6xNRSk6<HKOHIzUy1g5DJG@zJ7JBJ5#(<4
~{@zJ7<GTX#)!#
~{
> ~{VVWeCp>x:MCqWeM,;/~},~{NRCGLX@m9$5D?4JG5H<[5D~},~{5+TZNDIO~}
~{
~{~{
~{VVWeCp>x:MCqWeM,;/#,R;8vJGSC1)A&JV6N#,R;8vJG:MF==%=x5D9}3L#,R;8v6OWS
~{>xKo#,R;8v4+WZ=S4z#(KdH;1dAKQ*M3#)#,TuC4D\K5JG5H<[5D#?:N?v#,M,;/5D=a
~{9{JGDQRTT$AO5D#,1HHgCwM"5DSCRb4s8EJGOkSC::HKM,;/;X;X#,Fd=a9{#,H4JG::
~{HK1;;X;XM,;/#,;X;XTZCw4z?*J<71HY#,R*K5VVWeCp>x#,R2JG::We8xCpAK!#
~{NRTZNDVP6TUbVVM,;/U~2_2"N41mJ>P@IM#(7qTr5D;0>M8CMoO'FdN45CHOUfV4PPAK#)#,
~{OBCfDcK5!0R;0}R;1a!1#,4S:NK5Fp!#
~{
> ~{R;1aR;0}~}."~{2;Pm1>@`WTO`<^H"~}"~{TZHK@`@zJ7IOJ5TZIY<{~}.
> ~{6AV[WS5DCwJ7FdK|<8F*~},~{VlT*UB:CPD3&5DJ1:r2;6`~}.
> ~{Hg9{VlH7J53vSZ:CRb~},~{K{2;JG~}
> ~{?IRTR*::HK2;Pm1>@`WTO`<^H"~},~{4M::HKCI9EC{~},~{::HK8DSCCI9ESoBp~}?
> ~{6T0QVVPUAw~}
> ~{4+0YJ@?45CDGC4VX5D::HK~},~{HCHK1FWE8DPU1>JGFf3\~},"~{4MPU~}"
> ~{>9JGHYR+~}.~{HU1>HKHCVP9zHKQ'HUSo~},~{M,;/VP9zHK~},~{JG2;JGR2:\~}
> ~{:C~}?~{SCHU1>HK6TBzV^9z!"Mt>+N@SP6`:C~},~{;rHU1>HKHg:N=1@x~}
> ~{VP9z=51x~},~{D\2;D\K5CwHU1>HKC;SP1'84VP9zHK~}.
~{
~{Dc>Y5DUb8v@}WS#,2"2;G!51!#Hg9{JGVP9zHKGVBTHU1>#,:s@41;HU1>HK5D74?94r
~{0\#,6xHU1>HK;qJ$:s#,6TAtTZHU1>5DVP9zHKHg4KUb0c#,!0=1@xVP9z=51x!1#,Fd
~{GiPN#,2ESkCw3uO`KF#,6xNROk#,DGP)VP9zHK#,R;6(;a8P<$TxTbWT<:Q9FH5DHU1>
~{HK5D?m:j4sA?5D!#
~{Cw3u>3DZ5DCI9E9sWe#,6<RTD\5C5=;J5[5D4MPUN*<+4s5DHYR+#,2"7GWT<:2;T8
~{Rb#,CwM"F+R*G?FH!#<4J9JGDcKyN=5D!00QVVPUAw4+0YJ@?45CDGC4VX!15D::HK#,
~{R2JGRTD\5C4MPUN*HY5D#,V#3I9&2;>MJGRr4K3IAK!09zPUR/!1Bp#?
~{
~{!!!!!!7=V[WS!#

From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!copper!y1wan Tue Dec  7 09:43:45 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!copper!y1wan
From: y1wan@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Peter-Pan)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Re: Ming Hisoty  ~{CwJ7#:J7SPCwND#?;X6<HKOHIz~}
Message-ID: <9106@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Date: 3 Dec 93 14:36:37 GMT
References: <19931203003220.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver
Lines: 22
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4



~{L(MeSP8v3v0fIg#,W(3v9\@mU\Q'4TJi5D#,3v9zG0?4AKR;LW#,4S5[MuQ'9\@mO5AP#,SP~}
~{2\2Y#,@nJ@Cq#,VlT*h0#,UT?oX7#,P~lG#,Au18:M5B4(<R?5!#9XSZVlT*h05D</WSJGNbjO~}
~{OHIzP45D#,:COqJG4sB=5DQ'U_#,RrN*TZL(Me4SC;?49}K{SPFdK|5DWwF7#,QT9iU}4+!#~}

~{NbOHIzP45D4sCw5[9z9JJB#,4s6<6zJlD\Oj#,5+NDD)SPA=4sMFB[#,?I>*J@:'KW#,K{JWOH~}
~{5DMFB[#(<YIh#)#:4sCwJG8v;X=L5[9z!#UbJG4SVl;J5[5D8wWeF=:M6T4}5D#[QTUY#]Ji:M~}
~{U~2_MFV.#,OjND<GV.2;5C#,5+J1<d8wTZPl4o117%G0:MA"3/:s#,92A=;X!#R}Vn6`A"B[#,~}
~{FpBk5DS!OsJG#,;X=LTZ4sCw5DJFA&2;P!RT<0VnI+HK5HR@H;SPVx5X7=5DU~>-J5A&#,R@4K~}
~{K5#,UbVnI+HK8CJGJ\IF4}!#~}


~{JVM7N^Ji#,5+JiC{8xH!3I!0VlT*h05D9\@mU\Q'!1#,DZH]59JGCwJ75DU*Hk#,:MWwU_5DF@~}
~{B[!#~}

~{5XGr3v0fIg#,#1#9#9#1Dj3v0f#,NbjOVx#,P4Pr5DJG0.P4GwJF4TJi5DA;:kV>!#~}


~{P!7IO@~}



From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Tue Dec  7 09:55:03 1993
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From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming Histoy 43  ~{CwJ7#4#3#:>3DZCI9EWe5D4&>3~}
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1993  19:08 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931203190843.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

~{!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#<4sCwP!J7#(#4#3#)#-#->3DZCI9EWe5D4&>3#>
~{
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~{?IRT0|@(CI9EHK!#
~{!!!!T*K35[116]:s#,V;SP:S11!"I=Nw!"IBNw5H117=J!7V5DCI9E>|6S375=H{Mb#,
~{8wJ!5DCI9EWZMu!"9YT1!"JX>|<0<RJt4s2?7VVMAt515X#,SPJ}J.MrHKV.6`#,=vTF
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~{VPND#,;90QCI9ESoT-NDVpWVSC::NDRtRk!#Cw3/SVTx1`S!AK6`VVCI::6TUU5D4J;c
~{</!#
~{!!!!6TCI9EWe5DFUM(0YPUSVHg:NDX#?CwM"0QK{CGSk::HKR;Qy1`Hk;'<.#,8xSkLo
~{5XE#Qr#,AnFd8{VVWTJ3!#
~{!!!!51H;#,SISZ3$FZ5DTS>S#,DZ5X5DCI9EWe6`J}6<1;::We:MFdK{CqWeM,;/AK!#
~{DZ5X5DCI9EHKHg9{74EQ3/M"#,CwM"R2Os6T74EQ5D::HK:MFdK{CqWeR;Qy#,8xShUr
~{Q9!#5+JGK5CwM"Tx>-6TCI9EHKWw=W<61(84#,:N>]V.SP#?
~{
~{!!!!!!!!!!7=V[WS!

From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Tue Dec  7 12:29:58 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 44  ~{CwJ7#4#4#:1RVF~}
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1993  22:20 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 59
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931204222012.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

~{Q;LaAKR;8v!0R;A=RxV56`IYG.!15DQ'JuNJLb#,<HRQB%VwR24sLe=iI\AKR;OB@z4zRxA=~}
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~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7GkUR~}ifcss.org, cd act/archives/history/ming-history
~{
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From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Sun Dec 12 14:36:58 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming Histoy 45  ~{CwJ7#4#5#:11T*J@O5~}
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993  00:49 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 75
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931210004909.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7GkUR~}ifcss.org, cd act/archive/history/ming-history
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From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Fri Dec 17 11:30:05 1993
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 46  ~{CwJ7#4#6#:3BSQ6(~}
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993  23:52 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 57
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <19931216235216.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

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From fangshim@student.msu.edu Thu Dec 23 14:13:56 MST 1993
Article: 11052 of alt.chinese.text
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 47  ~{CwJ7#4#7#:8qB3EI5DPKFp~}
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993  01:40 est
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 58
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Message-ID: <19931222014055.fangshim@dasy.bch.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0
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From news.uta.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Mon Jan 10 12:15:32 CST 1994
Article: 22279 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.uta.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History: about "Da Ming Xiao Shi" ~{9XSZ#<4sCwP!J7#>5DK5Cw~}
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 1994  19:12 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0

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From news.uta.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu Mon Jan 10 20:01:06 CST 1994
Article: 22457 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news.uta.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!dasy.bch.msu.edu
From: fangshim@student.msu.edu  (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 48  ~{CwJ7#4#8#:T*J75D1`W+~}
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 1994  19:14 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dasy.bch.msu.edu
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From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!fue Sun Mar 27 22:34:46 1994
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!fue
From: fue@egr.msu.edu (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: ming history 52 ~{CwJ7#5#2#:MAD>V.1d~}
Date: 24 Mar 1994 07:25:45 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, College of Engineering
Lines: 82
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2mrf9p$5qo@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frith.egr.msu.edu
Status: R

~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7GkUR~}ifcss.org, cd act/archieve/history/ming-history

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From u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!fue Sat Apr  2 17:29:00 1994
Path: u.cc.utah.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!msuinfo!fue
From: fue@egr.msu.edu (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: Ming History 53 :~{CwJ7#5#3#:>)J&1#N@U=R;~}
Date: 1 Apr 1994 08:44:30 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, College of Engineering
Lines: 65
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2ngmte$tjb@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frith.egr.msu.edu
Status: R

~{RTG05D!64sCwP!J7!7GkUR~}ifcss.org, cd act/archive/hitsory/ming-history

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               ~{7=V[WS!#~}


From news!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!fue Fri Feb 18 11:32:29 CST 1994
Article: 25192 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!fue
From: fue@egr.msu.edu (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: ming history 49 ~{4sCwP!J7#4#9#:Cw3u5D?aPL~}
Date: 15 Feb 1994 09:07:07 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, College of Engineering
Lines: 63
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2jq3br$vvj@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frith.egr.msu.edu
Status: R

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          ~{7=V[WS!#~}


From news!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!fue Thu Feb 24 14:58:01 CST 1994
Article: 25988 of alt.chinese.text
Path: news!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!fue
From: fue@egr.msu.edu (Shimin Fang)
Newsgroups: alt.chinese.text
Subject: ming history 50 ~{4sCwP!J7#5#0#:HJWZ~}
Date: 24 Feb 1994 09:01:55 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, College of Engineering
Lines: 87
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2khqe3$seu@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frith.egr.msu.edu
Status: R

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